Hassan Butt appears to have had a change of heart. "Former Jihadist Shares Inside Secrets," from CBS News:
(CBS) A British-born Muslim extremist who admits to recruiting for organizations with links to al Qaeda and who once called the 9/11 attack "the pleasure of Allah" is now renouncing Muslim violence. In an interview with 60 Minutes correspondent Bob Simon in which he calls killing in the name of Islam a "cancer," Hassan Butt will also reveal recruiting and fundraising techniques and accuses British authorities of having a laissez-fare attitude toward radical Muslims in their country before the London subway bombing.
Simon’s report will be broadcast this Sunday, March 25, at 7 p.m. ET/PT.
"What I’ve come to realize is that killing … in the name of Islam is completely and utterly prohibited," says Butt. "And there's a big disease and a cancer in the Muslim world … and it needs to be dealt with."
The former jihadist faces an obvious uphill climb against mainstream Islamic teaching, the prevalence of jihad in the Qur'an and ahadith, and the doctrine of naskh, or abrogation, by which often-quoted "peaceful" verses of the Qur'an are superseded by later, more aggressive teachings.
Butt believes alternative voices can counter the violent rhetoric that influences Islamic extremists like Mohammad Sadique Khan, the mastermind of the London subway suicide bombings of 2005. "There is a violent streak within Islam. We need to be able to discuss and … counter these arguments so that we don't have any more Mohammad Sadique Khans," he tells Simon.
Those bombings, which killed more than 50 people so close to home, led Butt to question the murderous practices for which he recruited between 50 and 70 young Muslim Britons for training in Pakistan. He says he turned away from violence when no religious leader could give him positive proof that Allah sanctioned it.
Butt says one recruiting tool he made wide use of — the one he says started Khan on the path to his suicide mission — was arranged marriages in which parents forced their sons into wedlock. "A lot of the guys I know actually have become radicalized or initially took the first steps … as a result of them being … forced to marry someone they don't want to marry," says Butt. Their refusal to submit to their parents' traditions then drove them toward radical Islamic preachers, who did not care who they married as long as they were Muslims, he adds.
Once recruits showed interest in learning more about Islam, says Butt, the next step was to enrage them by talking about the suffering of Muslims around the world. Then a Koranic rationale for killing innocents would be argued. Taking away the innocence of the potential victims was the next step, says Butt. "[Innocents] become non-innocent and hence combatants and allowed to be targeted."
Butt says he would never ask or suggest a recruit go for training to Pakistan. "The network never pushes people in that way. We believe that if the person … has the conviction himself to come to you and say they want to go to training, then they are the type of person who will most likely take that one step further and will be the reliable foot soldier for you," he tells Simon.
Fundraising was also part of his job, and he says he relied on Muslim professionals in Britain to whom he revealed the money was for jihad. "Doctors. People who were businessmen, professional people, basically, who wanted to donate substantial amounts of money," says Butt. Another source of funds was drug dealing. Butt says he would offer Muslim drug dealers "cleansing" in the eyes of Islam for 20 percent of their take. "As long as the drugs weren't being sold to other Muslims. In fact we saw it as a tactic of war. … Let's poison them and kill them slowly with this as well," says Butt.
Butt also says that before the subway bombing in London, British authorities had a lax attitude toward radical Muslim leaders, allowing them to proselytize, raise funds, and travel back and forth between Pakistan and London. He contends that both sides were aware of this as some kind of tacit deal. "That was an unspoken deal, and as a result, what tended to happen is the British government lost count of how many people were going abroad and getting trained and coming back and going into operational mode as sleeper cells," Butt tells Simon.
There Islamic intellectual virility in the fundamentalist message, that is lacking in the reform message, Until they find that , they have no foundation to build a reform on.
There Islamic intellectual virility in the fundamentalist message, that is lacking in the reform message, Until they find that , they have no foundation to build a reform on.
Among themselves many Muslims will ridicule Jesus for dying on a cross -- "That man on a stick". They prefer Muhammad the assassin, the killer, murderer and conqueror. Who died for no one but had many die for him, his Allah and his message. They then exploit Jesus for their propaganda because they feel Islam is the superior successor religion
If he bailed out, it could have been for any number of reasons. It being un-Islamic couldn't be one of them. If he were to have this discussion with his former colleagues, they'd explain to him how it is very much Islamic, assuming that they didn't choose to slit his throat.
No, Robert, your statement "Hassan Butt appears to have a change of heart" is too generous. If he had renouced Islam a la Walid Shoebat, I could have believed that his conversion was genuine. But all this time, he knew that this was according to the Quran and Sunnah, and suddenly this? What gave him the idea from those sources that what he was doing was contrary to Islamic norms?
I can-t believe it say it aint so????
Man what being lost in space will do to a person??
Spider killer
Squirrel Hunter
GOD BLESS THE USA AND HER FIGHTING FORCES AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH AND COURAGE AND SIGHT TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO HELP THEM AMEN
PS
THE Media seams to be helpers of islamic terrorist just look at the Italian media person tradded for 5 islamict terrorist yes the media the islamic terrorist best friends+++++
"He says he turned away from violence when no religious leader could give him positive proof that Allah sanctioned it."
Is that it? That is what changed his mind? So all our talk about how the Koran sanctions violence is wrong, or is he looking for other positive proof?
Seems like his conscience got him.
Posted by: payingattention at March 24, 2007 04:00 PM
Maybe you might want to do some homework because it says in their book about such people they call them hip-a-crats has a nice ring don-t it???
Better do your homework or I will have to show you how ugly their book really is or are just another mulsum lier??? (OR just another dimmi)
See I don-t like them at all pretty sick of their savage ways we all see everyday£££££
Part of the American Tribe
Squirel Hunter
Spider Killer
GOD BLEES THE USA AND ALL WHO FIGHT WITH HER GIVE THEM STRENGTH, SIGHT, AND COURAGE TO DESTROY ALL ISLAMIC TERRORIST AND ALL WHO STAND WITH THEM AMEN
Infidel Pride is right. This smells to high heaven.
"He says he turned away from violence when no religious leader could give him positive proof that Allah sanctioned it."
Bullspit. I could find ten imams online that could give him such proof in less than an hour. If he's so sure that Islam's peaceful aspects take precedence over it's violent aspects, he's doing the Islamic wold a huge disservice by not sharing his discovery. I know a couple million Muslims who could benefit from the wise teachings of Mr. Butt.
And I'm sorry, but seriously? Hassan BUTT?
Man, I hope there aren't any Seymores in the family.
This man Hassan Butt has been a first rank Jihadi for quite a while.
What I have noted in the last few months, is that imams and Muslims community has had second thoughts that the Jihad agenda was getting too far ahead of the reality of the situation - in particular, in Britain and Australia.
What we are seeing is a temporary abeyance of the Jihad. Hassan Butt is just another Jihadi who is following the strategy that the Jihad horns have to be withdrawn a bit, or the entire project would be in jeopardy in the West.
DP111:
My thoughts entirely.
On the one hand, I'm grateful to people like Butt who become disillusioned with violent jihad, but on the other, I sense that they're reluctance to denounce Islamic doctrine itself leaves ignorant Infidels with the impression that Islam is a religion of peace which is being misinterpreted.
Figure it this way: How is it possible that thousands of people, separated geographically, studying the same texts, simultaneously are inspired to become violent? It's not a coincidence.
Is this the same Hassan Butt in this interview
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=6992
Nah, I don't think this guy could have had any change of heart. Read that interview.
Big Deal.
islam is still an evil, violent, anti Western and despicable ideology.
So knowing this, this ex jihadi is still the plague carrier he used to be.
Why give these pukes currency ?
I assume the 60 Minutes piece has been fully vetted by CAIR, and therefore expect more of the same taqiyya and kitman we've become accustomed to.
Thank you for this Marisol as it begs the question to be explored in perhaps KSM of the infamous, "I blew up everything" in taking credit for all might not have been playing to an audience in saying he now regrets people dying.
The Nazi regime in a case study was very concerned about it's SS forces slaughtering civilians as it was having psychological effects on the troops. Even Charlie Manson speaks of Sharon Tate's ghost haunting him in his thoughts.
The dead do tell tales and a soul so inflicted does indeed start playing their mournful cry.
This Muslim who was in the midst of the fray and not just the passive "watch it on television" cheering mob like a movie is reacting in quite human terms. Perhaps with all the violence the Muslim mind will be satiated at some point and say enough is enough.
If Islam can not teach compassion, the heart by God's hand will cause a revulsion where the soul will puke out what it can not keep.
Fascinating. Yes we are no where near the point of this becoming a movement, but this is a psychological trend which no one has even explored.
*yawn*
Islam is so 7th century. Can we talk about something else?
Western Infidel
In Britain, it is noticeable that the MCB and other similar Islamic organisations, oh so vocal and threatening in the past, have become suddenly silent and accomodating.
In Australia, imams and Muslim organisations are advocating that Muslims should become lifeguards and take part in civic duties.
In the USA we have the strange situation that a Muslim organisation has offered to pay for the defence of John Does who may be sued by The Flying Imams.
Why not all this before? Why only now, and only just when in all three countries, there is a groundswell of Infidel opinion that Muslims seriously damage the health of a nation that they are allowed in, and that something has to be done.
Soon we will see Muslims coming on this site and denouncing the Jihadis, and in dulcet tones deprecating the "hate" on this site. Hassan Butt is a case in point doing this on CBS. Muslims are now desperate to reclaim the "holier then thou" and "victim" mantle, and gain some time for the demographics to catch up.
I've always had this feeling that Muslim responses to Islam critics is organised. Remember when "out of context" was the rage. Then the "Koran is understood only in Arabic", or "Only a Muslim can understand the Koran" or lastly "Islamophobia". In each case, virtually all Muslim responses was the same excuse at a given time.
Islam has never lost in Islamising a country, the only exception being Spain. Even this last, is beginning to look doubtful at present.
The only way to save civilisation is to stop Muslim immigration as a first step and the reverse immigration. Modernisation, reformation and all other "tions" of Islam are simply a ruse to gain time till the demographics make the outcome inevitable.
After reading the interview with the germ Hassan Butt, I am convinced that Robert has fallen into the trap to believe that he is a changed man ... Robert, once a jihadi is alwys a jihadi ... I will not fly on the same plane as him.
Let me ask you, would you?
The interview link was posted "http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=6992
" by pc [TypeKey Profile Page] at March 24, 2007 05:36 PM
i remember this guy. glad he is renouncing jihad. hopefully he can bring his new knowledge with him when he is deported when the next right wing government kicks him and his kind out.
MusHuntCowboy
Thanks for the link to the 2005 interview of Butt. Just read it through, and it is clear that Butt's views are deeply held and with conviction.
This recent interview on CBS is just Taqqiya to buy time till the demographics catch up with the reality. In Blair's Britain, with an open doors for Muslims from around the world, as well NHS maternity wards in full swing, it wont be long in historic terms.
Does anyone believe that the marxist goons from 60 Minutes would present anything that would have a semblance of the truth. I've grudgingly watched the last five eposides and I've seen nothing more than advocate journalism debasing our fighting men in Iraq at the hands of a pretty British loon, a presentation of our fighting men as killers and rapists and now a converted Jiahdi. Give me a break. Next we'll have a personal look into the life of Ibby Hooper and a tour of his flower garden.
"A lot of the guys I know actually have become radicalized or initially took the first steps … as a result of them being … forced to marry someone they don't want to marry," says Butt. Their refusal to submit to their parents' traditions then drove them toward radical Islamic preachers, who did not care who they married as long as they were Muslims, he adds.
Typical Muslim - blame someone else.
MusHuntCowboy and Infidel Pride--
I posted this one.
I haven't completely let my guard down with respect to HB's new attitude, either, which is why I said he "appears to have had a change of heart."
It'll be interesting to watch this continue to unfold.
HOW TO DEBATE AND FRUSTRATE INFIDELS
Author : Ayesha Ahmed on Mar 10, 2007 - 01:50 AM
Dear brothers and sisters in islam:
We live in kuffar country and daily we have to face the infidels who criticize islam and our prophet, and who want to debate us. In an Islamic country if some one did that all we have to do is to announce loudly what he said and the rest is taken care of by an angry mob. The critic is lynched in no time. End of the story. However here we don't have that luxury as yet. Inshallah in forseeble future after we grow by conversions of morons and criminals in prisons, legal and illegal immigration and procreation we will,inshallah, become a majority and will not have to face this problem on daily basis. However, for the time being following is an approach all muslim brothers and sisters can use when faced with such a pest. Jazakallah Khair. Inshallah the vermin will steer clear of you in future.
1. A popular question is "why islam calls for death of Islamic critics and apostates". Insist that their info is false. Quote aya "to you your religion and to me my religion".
2. To answer "Islam spread with sword", say that it is a big lie spread by the jews and hindus and that quran clearly says " there is no compulsion in religion".
3. If some one quotes violent ayas from Koran, accuse him of quoting ayas in bits and pieces and cherry picking .
4. If he then quotes full ayas and ayas before and after, than insist that the translation is wrong.
5. If he brings ten different translations than say correct meanings can be understood only by reading Quran in Arabic.
6. If he happens to be well versed in Arabic language than insist that those ayas don't mean what they appear to mean as they have allegorical meanings.
7. If he is adamant, than say you cannot understand those ayas and it's context without reading hadith and sira.
8.. If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet's rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran.
9. If he says Quran is a man made document and wants proof of it's divinity then refer to the sciences in Quran and the book written by Dr. Bucaile confirming the sciences in our holy book. You can also quote that Mahatama Gandhi read Quran daily and also spoke highly of it.
10. If he says that Bucaile was on Saudi payroll and that nor he nor Gandhi ever changed their religions and that Bucaile was challenged and proven wrong by many experts then challenge him to ask his experts to debate islamists like Zakir Naik..
11. If the pests still hangs around then change the topic and find faults in other religions and their books.
12. If he continues on then use personal attacks and insult him by calling him a jewish a- hole , a Chinese pig or a hindu dog .
13. If that does not frustrate him, then ask him how much he is being paid by jews to throw dirt on Al Islam.
..
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1146&theme=Printer
Yes, there is a violent streak within Islam. It's called Islam.
And I agree with Infidel33 re 60 mins being suspect. I haven't watched the show in years, but as I recall it's not Fox News-like.
What about getting him to admit, that the Koran is not the literal word of god, but open to interpretation, that would be a start. He would have to believe that, or he's not ever going to be able to justify Islam as a non-violent religion.
Re: "As long as the drugs weren't being sold to other Muslims. In fact we saw it as a tactic of war. … Let's poison them and kill them slowly with this as well," says Butt.
Islam is just another rationalization for the exploitation and conquest of some lately "indigenous people". History is one long sorry record of these rationalizations that dehumanize "the other", that allow permission for "the other" to be subdued by some self-professed "best people", who usually go about killing, exploiting and lying for some "religious"/ideological cause. If they are successful, they set up a new ruling class and the conquered become their dhimmis as the cause turns into a business.
As Hugh has pointed out, Islam was the engine of Arab Imperialism and it displaced or exploited (or exterminated) cultures and peoples from India to Spain. But this belief-system is not unique in its supremacist assumptions, and permissions to exploitation and mass murder. The Spaniards (who were victims of the Arabs) did it it to the Aztecs in the New World. And prior to the arrival of the Spaniards, the Aztec were busy in their "jihad" against the Toltec. And after this problem with Islam is behind all, there will be yet another rationalization for another "jihad" from some self-declared "best people" (maybe China) that may threaten Muslims with extermination.
The beat will go on....
Jewdog:Yes, there is a violent streak within Islam. It's called Islam.
And Muhammad was the first Muslim Jihadist. The first Muslim mass murderer. Done all in the name of a phony baloney allah
A freind was telling me how Muslims are nice and peaceful. That a show on the history channel said Jihadists like Bin Laden are abusing and misinterpreting Islam. I said to him read up on the life of Muhammad and read an objective book about that. Why would a psycho killer (in the Charlie Manson vein) inspire a peaceful religion? This defies common sense
Ah bah-this guy Hasssan Butt is only worried about his own 'butt'.Note in the usual Muslim whine he 'blames the British Authorities for not cracking down on Radicals'-as if British Authorities encourage worthless men such as himself to go out and preach Jihad against their Hosts. If the Authorities ever moved their 'butts' and actually cut off all Benefits to these creeps England would certainly be better off financially at least.However, all the Infidels are getting more and more fed up with
Whinging,Arrogant',Useless Muslims who seem only good for two things-breeding and their bloodthirsty Stone Age Death Cult which masquerades as a 'religion.'If individual Muslims don't start being grateful & showing a little respect,their chances of remaining in Europe don't look good...
Suggest this Hassan is removed to Sharia Paradise for starters.
FRabk
As Hugh has pointed out, Islam was the engine of Arab Imperialism and it displaced or exploited (or exterminated) cultures and peoples from India to Spain.
It obviously helps to have a god (in this case a false one named allah) to endorse your campaign of rape and pillage of peaceful, non-adversarial peoples. This gave Muhammad's war lust a transcendental nature
Islam is probably the most effective of all the rationalization systems that permit the dehumanization of unbelievers in the doctrines of its religion-ideology. It's a rationalization system that is well supported by rituals and alleged word-for-word mandates from God that permits lying, exploitation and murder since Kuffirs are not "innocent". It's a brilliant rationalization system. Will they succeed in setting up a new ruling class in the West and elsewhere? Will history repeat itself?
Hitler and Himmler were right that Islam is very compatible with Nazi ideology. In fact, both Hitler and Himmler expressed regret that Islam was not the religion of Nazi Germany. Both thought Judeo-Christian beliefs incompatible with the domination and exploitation of Slavs and others. Islam is a perfect rationalization for subduing, exploitation, lying and dehumanizing its "enemies". No doubt about it-it's perfect for that purpose.
dennisw-
You bet. It's a perfect rationalization system for that purpose. Both Hitler and Himmler knew what an alleged mandate from God could do for Nazism and both regretted that Christianity, and not Islam, was the traditional religion of Germany as they attempted to subdue the world to "the best people".
Jihad is not for the faint hearted
every time i'm on this site i feel a need to promote or talk about a right wing government or some type of extremist party to defend the west agaisnt islam. this is wrong, what we need is a total freedom party in the USA and europe . fascism and right wing extremism is not the way forward.
To those who think that Robert is BUYING what this muslim Butt is saying I say hold your horses.
All Robert is doing is to report as he always does. He said that the musulm Butt *appears* to have had a change of heart.
Next:
To those who said they don't believe that alla didn't say "kill the unbelievers"n I say unto you:
alla didn't say anything one way or the other - cuz there ain't no alla. Simple enough.
So since there is no alla, he can't say anything to anyone.
alla is behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.
Perfect Taqquiyya ain't it?
moslems who know perfectly well what islam is - meaning they share our understanding,[ but why should that make them stop? ] can now tell everyone with a straight face that alla never said anything of any kind.
It's *mahomet* who said all these evil things - all depending on the necessities of the moment. He was totally winging it day to day.
MAHOMET - the *ultimate* grifter.
HASSAN BUTT: "What I’ve come to realize is that killing … in the name of Islam is completely and utterly prohibited"
RESPONSE: We all know what nonsense this is. Both the Quran and the Ahadith are filled with exhortations to kill.
The question becomes, is this the kind of "moderate" that Robert is looking for?.....one who denies both the form and content of Islam?.....a reinterpreter extraordinaire?
Robert keeps talking about his desire to meet with moderate Muslims and "find ways" to reinterpret the foundational texts. The prospect is implausible.
How is it possible to reinterpret not a verse or two from the Quran.....and not a quote or two from the Traditions.....but literally dozens from each?
The only answer is to dispense with arguments over interpretations and simply advocate secularism as the only valid societal model to insure human freedom.
Looks like he chickened out of the violance jihad and has taken up the lying his ass off jihad.
"What I’ve come to realize is that killing … in the name of Islam is completely and utterly prohibited," says Butt.
Wrong.
"And there's a big disease and a cancer in the Muslim world … and it needs to be dealt with."
Right.
I heard and saw the video extract.
I dont really find this beleiveable or credible. It is certainly possible that Hassan Butt has changed his heart. Having seen all the comments here I would say this:
I have seen people who are 100% convinced of their ideology and then some watershed moment arrives which causes doubt. At that point, it becomes difficult to articulate what you really beleive in - the house of cards has tumbled.
People in this state are usually in a great deal of mental confusion - without any idea what set of former beliefs they should hang onto or reject. Usually they just have 1 or 2 core ideas they believe in.
Is Hassan Butt in this state?
It is hard to say. I go along with DP111.
I think Western true radical Muslims have realised that they have overreached themselves, there are too many Western liberals starting to question Islam. In other words, this admission of Islamic flaws, could well be designed to lull Western liberals to sleep. They will need a lot of lulling. Hassan Butt could well be Islamic spokesperson, elected by other radical elements as the best choice to fool the West. And the other radical elements will be giving messages to "lie low, do nothing, live ordinary lives".
But it is just concieveable that he could be genuine. It remains to be seen what he does next. I will watch what he says and what he does. But also like others here, I am very very very suspicious. There are too many unanswered questions that dont make sense. He must surely know that texts within the Quran, the Hadith collections and Mohammads example, add up to the fact that Islam supports offensive war. How can he then say that not one Iman could offer justification? Unless he is colossally ignorant of what Islam teaches (exceptionally unlikely), it looks like a Islamic media effort to convince us of genuine change of hearrt.
I would be interested if some expert on body postures, facial movements, blinking would do an analysis on what he says and answers whether Hassan Butt is trying to fool us with false contrition - a lie.
So my analysis condenses down to:
Hassan Butt faking it: 95%
Hassan Butt geniune : 5%
If their selling drugs as part of Jihad, to get the kuffar addicted, and therefore bring about the downfall of the west, and propagate Islam, then anyone who takes drugs should be seen as being traitors to western civilisation.
If their selling drugs as part of Jihad, to get the kuffar addicted, and therefore bring about the downfall of the west, and propagate Islam, then anyone who takes drugs should be seen as being traitors to western civilisation.
I have to agree with the majority here - this is set-up and it is a worrying occurance - it seems the uhmma is changing tactic - putting on the breaks for a bit to fool the idiot kafurs - of course it will work - the left and all the "usefull fools" will jump on this kind of thing to prove that Islam is not all bad and maybe we can all just live together - meanwhile they continue full speed ahead with their breeding vessels filling up our great civilsations with future jihadis in anticipation of the time when they can cast asode such taquija and take control of that what they desire - our great civilisation
Cornelius wrote:
"The question becomes, is this the kind of "moderate" that Robert is looking for?.....one who denies both the form and content of Islam?.....a reinterpreter extraordinaire?"
If that position becomes enforceable in mainstream Islamic ideology, then yes. By the way, Robert isn't "looking" for any type of Muslim at all.
Cornelius wrote:
"Robert keeps talking about his desire to meet with moderate Muslims and "find ways" to reinterpret the foundational texts. The prospect is implausible.
Robert encourages Muslims to speak out against the vile tenets of Islam. Fill in your own blank to describe what type of Muslim you are referring to, being either "moderate", "traditional", "peaceful", or whatever, they are equivalent in nature.
The feasibility of that prospect is irrelevant, specifically in regards to Robert's position. He educates us, the ignorant masses to the inherent ideological threat that Islam poses to the West, as prescribed by Islam's immutable holy texts, most notably, the Qur'an. He openly states that he is NOT confident that this vital endeavor will ever occur. That being said, Robert has never denounced Islam and/or Muslims categorically, or in totality.
Robert ably defines the problem areas of the Islamic ideology, the areas that need to be reformed, or abrogated for that matter, but the onus is not on him to orchestrate that change. It never has been, and it probably never will be, his responsibility. He has stated on more than ten occasions, that the change must come from within the Muslim community. Islam is Islam. It always has been, and until proven otherwise, always will be, Islam. Identifying and defining a problem is many miles apart from owning that problem.
I grow weary of those questioning how Robert or Hugh can possibly do "this or that", or think "this way or thataway". Their collective positions are stated ad nauseum on this site, and, for the record, there is no inherent dichotomy contained anywhere therein.
Cornelius wrote:
"The only answer is to dispense with arguments over interpretations and simply advocate secularism as the only valid societal model to insure human freedom."
Now THAT is an excellent, stand alone point.
"Jihad is not for the faint hearted"-Abdullah
Nazism was not for the faint hearted either, and, as with Islam, it was for the demented who needed to feel superior to others based on a belief-system. Real strength is always restrained and governed by reason-experience and is deeply understanding of what it means to be human. The whole picture is "pig eyes" Ibraham "Little Dougie" Hooper vs. Gandhi. One is human.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blackcountry/content/images/2005/04/28/giant_pig_eyes_203_203x152.jpg
I don't know that he hasn't had a little change of heart. Sure, he might be practicing the time-honored muslim tradition of deception by ostensibly renouncing violence & making the ridiculous assertion that the koran doesn't permit killing, both designed to lull the West into lowering its guard. But if he is, he isn't doing it nearly as effectively as he might. After all, there are his other statements that muslim professionals donate to the jihad & muslims deal drugs to infidels both to raise funds & cripple the West. I would think that these latter statements would outweigh the former one (about the koran not permitting killing) in the minds of open-minded infidel viewers, leaving the impression that islam might indeed be a scourge on the West.
Marisol
My apologies for not identifying you as the author. I did notice the 'appears', but his explanation that 'he turned away from violence when no religious leader could give him positive proof that Allah sanctioned it' defies credibility, thus undermining the appearance of any change of heart. And that's without even questioning whether he holds Mohammed as the norm for Islamic behavior (since the Jihadists could have pointed out copious hadiths that showed otherwise): all of Allah's desires have been articulated by Mohammed, since he's delegated to speak for Allah in numerous verses in the Quran (3:32, 3:132, 4:13, 4:59, 4:69, 4:80, 5:92, 8:1-2, 8:20, 8:46, 9:71, 24:47, 24:52-56, 33:33, 47:33, 49:14, 58:13, 59:7).
I agree with Sheikh Yer Booty that he's not doing it as effectively as he might. However, he is echoing what MSM audiences want to hear by describing violence as against Islam - since few want to face up to the fact that a religion could be that evil.
Robert keeps talking about his desire to meet with moderate Muslims and "find ways" to reinterpret the foundational texts. The prospect is implausible.
[...]
Posted by: Cornelius
Where do some of these people get the idea that Robert is being suckered?
He is merely acting in an attorney-sort-of-way. Or devil's advocate if you prefer.
It is obvious from his body of work that Robert is absolutely sceptical of islam and that the question he poses re. wishing to meet moderate moslems is largely a rhetorical one.
He leaves open the door of being proven wrong - which would be a good thing. It would be a sign of hope that islam is indeed ready to move on and reform itself.
I am not even that little bit optimistic as Robert is. He is at least willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in a Descartesian sort of way. Dubito - ergo sum.
At least that is my take on Robert and his thinking on islam.
No way he's going soft. That much I am certain of.
No need for Robert to prove his "street cred" anyway.
PS. I gotta give Giant Kudos to all of you who actually read the KKKoran! For an *infidel* like me it is hard to even read oa page of this convoluted and irrational madness. Most of it sounds like the ravings of a lunatic condemned for life in Creedmore. Too bad this fine facility doesn't have room for 1.3 BN ppl.
I'm not Hugh or Robert so I can speak maybe a little more bluntly:
"Wer's glaubt wird selig"
If you believe this drivel - you're in Heaven already!
POPE BENEDICT: A GOD/ALLAH OF REASON OR AN IRRATIONAL GOD/ALLAH
UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF RELIGIOUS RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
An Islamic Reformation
Moderate Muslims are engaged with the Islamic fundamentalists in a life and death struggle for the heart and soul of Islam. We need to form an alliance with moderate Muslims in their historical struggle to dramatically reduce recruits for terrorism. Such an alliance will lead to a Reformation of Islam. The Equality of Women and the Renunciation of Religious Violence are essential cornerstones in the Reformation of Islam.
A GOD OF REASON AND ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISM
Islamic Fundamentalists have taken Islam and turned its teachings into a murderous medieval ideology – that the killing of infidels in the name of Allah will be rewarded in heaven - allowing the Islamists to sexually molest for all eternality 72 virgins, in 72 mansions, and 72 beds – that the murder of millions of non - believers is a religious duty, women are inferior to men - their virtual slaves to be denied education, beaten, killed for adultery or other sexual transgressions (real or imaged), covered from head to toe, people can be mutilated and tortured, barbers giving hair cuts can be killed, music and movies banned, women practicing folk dancing murdered, schools teaching young girls blown up, anyone who believes in a different interpretation of Islam to be killed and on and on. Muslims have paid a terrible price at the hands of these Fundamentalists. Children mutilated. Grand parents brains blown all over the street. Women, children, old and young. Over one hundred and fifty thousand Muslims have been slaughtered in the most horrid, unimaginable ways since 9/11.
The Pope in his recent speech on God and Reason has shown the way forward. A very important event occurred recently when 36 Islamic Scholars sent the Pope a communication in which they agreed – that in Islam, Allah is – "A GOD OF REASON." This important declaration - perhaps one of the most important by a group of such eminent Islamic scholars must be seized upon. The Pope should call for a world religious conference on the scale of Vatican 2 bringing together all the top religious leaders and scholars from EVERY world religion to draft a Universal Declaration of Religious Principles. This Declaration will form the basis of an historic alliance between Christianity and Islam to turn the murderous fundamentalist tide before it is too late. Before a nuclear weapon is exploded in the Name of Allah in a Western City killing millions.
Following would be the format of this Universal Religious Declaration.
UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF RELIGIOUS RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
There is only one God
God is God
God is a God of Reason.
God is not an irrational being. If God is irrational then God is not God.
Ordinary people on the street understand the words – "reason" and 'irrational". Any such declaration must be kept simple - not an intellectual rambling on of the Philosophy of Reason. (For a very important article on the Philosophy of Reason and Pope Benedicts controversial speech I draw your attention to article – "Socrates or Muhammad? Joseph Ratzinger on the destiny of reason" by Lee Harris.)
God Being a God of Reason Therefore:
All violence in the Name of God/Allah is the GREATEST evil anyone can commit. Suicide is an evil act in every religion. Suicide bombers killing themselves and others in the Name of God/Allah – this is the Supreme evil act. The second most evil act is killing, maiming, and torturing others to the Greater Glory of God/Allah. The concept of Jihad as religious holy war must be condemned. All references to violence in any holy book/text is not the word of God/Allah but the word of man. No God Allah who is God /Allah would ever instruct anyone to commit acts of violence against any other human being. Violence in religion must be totally and completely renounced – WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. There is no heaven for these murderers. No mansions. No virgins. Just the black hole of eternal damnation. You cannot climb to heaven on the corpses of the murdered. If God /Allah believes in violence then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.
God Being A God of Reason Therefore:
Women and men are equal in the eyes of God/Allah. Women are the equal of men. Women are not valued by God/Allah as worth 50% of men. God/Allah did not create women to be the chattel or slaves of men. Females have full rights in society before the law, under the rule of law, can dress any way they freely desire without fear of death, walk the streets without a male relative escort, do any occupation, receive all educational rights, drive planes, trains, automobiles, fly to the stars, choose their own husbands etc. These equal rights of women in society are very important. Their exercise without fear of violence - without the fear of being victims of Honor Killings must be declared WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION in any such declaration. If God/Allah is a sexist then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.
God Being A God of Reason Therefore:
There are many ways to God/Allah. Each individual has the total and complete right to find his/her own way to God/Allah or not. Religious freedom is the right of all mankind. The right to build churches, mosques etc. To practice ones religious beliefs non – violently is a corner stone of all civilized societies. The right to change ones religion without fear of death. Only an irrational God/Allah would order people put to death for not believing in religion or deciding to change ones beliefs from one religion to another religion. It is an unimpeachable right.
God Being A God Of Reason Therefore:
All human beings are created equal. All races are created equal. God/Allah does not wish that any human being be a slave. No one person is the lesser of the other. To use religion to spread hate against other races, religions in places of worship, employing television or any other medium, teaching hatred to the young in schools – this is evil incarnate. If God/Allah is a racist then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.
God Being A God Of Reason Therefore
God/Allah blessed man with an intelligence to reason, to explore, to seek the truth of any question – total freedom of thought. To think and reason without fear of jail/death. It is against the will of God/Allah to threaten anyone with death, torture or prison for freely exercising his God/Allah given brain. The human brain is the greatest gift God/Allah has ever bestowed on man. It was given to mankind to purse - the arts, literature, sciences, intellectual pursuits. Its free exercise is the will of God/Allah. Declared WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. If God/Allah is anti intellectual then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.
God Being A God Of Reason Therefore
All mankind has the right to freedom and democracy, equality before the law, freedom of action, freedom of thought, right to elect their leaders. God /Allah does not want dictators and tyrants to rule over other men. NO EQUIVOCATION. If God/Allah does not believe in the right of mankind to Freedom and Democracy then God/Allah is irrational and therefore God/Allah is not God/Allah.
Pope Benedict has opened the way to a great reconciliation of the world religions. A Grand Conference issuing this Universal Declaration of Religious Rights and Freedoms to be read in every Church, Synagogue, Mosque would be the start of an alliance between faiths against ALL religious extremists. A turning point in the struggle for the minds of young people especially young Muslims who are being constantly bombarded by a religious evil ideology.
Written By,
Larry Houle
E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com
www.godofreason.com
Larry Houle wrote,
"Moderate Muslims are engaged with the Islamic fundamentalists in a life and death struggle for the heart and soul of Islam. We need to form an alliance with moderate Muslims in their historical struggle to dramatically reduce recruits for terrorism."
In the fundamentalists' eyes, wouldn't allying with the infidels automatically taint the moderate muslims' efforts to reform islam, and therefore make it much less likely that the terrorist spring would dry up?
Looks like Larry Houle is looking for a job as a policy director and speech writer.
Good luck to you, Lar.
March 24, 2007
"The reason we have to fight"
By MICHAEL COREN, of the Toronto Sun
"Imagine a history book being read by people in 100 years time. In a chapter entitled, Why We Fought, it would list the crimes of an ideology and a movement, Islamic fundamentalism, that became so powerful and so grotesque in the opening years of the 21st century that the civilized world was obliged to resist.
The book would explain that some of the wars of resistance were unsuccessful, or even ill-advised, but that in the end the forces of light triumphed over the death-black darkness.
It would also recount how some people in the civilized world opposed the struggle, out of self-loathing, cowardice, leftist politics or simply because they were part of the jihadist movement."
Awake, Allahfanculo,
First of all, I think I know a little something about what Robert Spencer thinks. I've been coming to this site daily since 2003. I've read three of his books cover-to-cover, 'Islam Unvieled,'The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam,' and 'The Truth About Muhammad' (which I'm re-reading at this moment).
I have nothing but the greatest respect for Mr Spencer; I often refer to him as "fearless leader" when posting here. But I'm not a sychophant, singing his praises to the exclusion of all else. I see myself as a loyal lieutenant, offering my advice when I can.
Robert's offer of dialogue with Muslim moderates is laudible. His encouragement of any and all efforts to reform Islam is in my estimation the correct position. His scepticism regarding the prospects of such an enterprise is also quite justifiable.
But he has on at least a couple of occasions written about a willingness to dialogue with Muslim moderates and "find ways" to reinterpret the sacred texts. It is just my opinion, but I believe this is a public relations exercise on his part, to fight against the vile slanders that paint him as a hate-monger. Quite understandable, but hardly feasible.
We could be consumed for decades mired in the minutia of interpretation....and just when we think we've turned a corner, some new firebrand cleric would come along and declare such views heresy...and we're back to square one.
Everything Robert is doing in terms of pedagogy is not only right, but invaluable. I happen to think he is the world's most articulate and knowledgable advocate of the anti-Jihad.
Nonetheless, when pushing for solutions, it is clear to me that the answer is to be found in secularism, not in implausible hopes of theological reinterpretation.
The "violent streak" in Islam is like the "primal streak" in a chicken's egg. It determines everything else that follows.
The hatching has only just begun.
Europe bears millions of Islamo-cuckoo's eggs.
And boy are they going to get 'flocked'!
quote:
"If their selling drugs as part of Jihad, to get the kuffar addicted, and therefore bring about the downfall of the west, and propagate Islam, then anyone who takes drugs should be seen as being traitors to western civilisation."
Posted by: Voltaire
Unfortunately in this day and age, so many seem to pride themselves in their treasonous acts and drugs don't have much to do with it.
I posted this one.
Posted by: MarisolJW at March 24, 2007 07:35 PM
Thanks for clearing this one M. My apology to Robert.
If this islamic Butt truly means what he says and wishes to come clean then he needs to voluntarily repay his debt to society.
Giving up information that the Secret service can act upon would be one way.
Turning himself in and giving himself up for prosecution along with a detailed confession would be another way.
Assisting in the apprehension and conviction if his "former" cohorts would be yet another.
I watched the interview and hope that this fellow means what he says. If so, he's extremely courageous and is the kind of person who might actually make a difference.
But unfortunately he's taken up a losing proposition. He can't be a Muslim and a reformer who renounces violence. It's not going to work and never has -- history is punctuated with examples of people like this fellow and they have failed to a man.
The simple truth in the matter is this: no moderate can legitimately tell any Muslim to stop doing what Mohammed did. For a Muslim to argue that other Muslims must renounce violence and coercion is folly. Mohammed was not moderate. The Qur'an is not moderate. There's no escaping these facts.