UN urges independence for Kosovo

One can only hope that Russia comes to the rescue and cognizant of the fact that the USA is tied down in Iraq (and needs Russia's support re: Iran)brooks no resistance from the clueless Condi and the Idiot in Chief.

I hope as well that Russia will stand up against this. However I would be afraid that if Russia doesn't get its way, it would then help support Iran in the UN.

Russia, I don't think, completely understands that nature of Islam, which can be seen in Russia's response to the partition of Serbia.

If Kosovo is separated, Russia will then support the separation of Transdneister from Moldova and Abkhazia and South Ossetia from Georgia. The thing is though, Abkhazia is primarily Muslim, and I don't know why Russia would accept more Muslims when they already facing down the loss of their Christian Orthodox heritage.

Russia has already handed out Russian passport like they were candy, making Abkhazians de facto Russian citizens.

You got baloney for brains if you keep supporting salami jihad,

On a different thought, despite the historical reasons, it might be better if Serbia let Kosovo separate from them. Just annex the areas of Kosovo that are primarily Serbian Orthodox, and then keep the Muslims out, through whatever means necessary, just like the US should be doing with its immigration.

Why any nation would accept such a large amount of unassimilatable people is beyond me, whether through immigration, like the EU and North America, annexing primarily Muslim areas, like Russia with Abkhazia, or fighting to keep the ingrates, a-la Serbia and Thailand.

And if these people now homogonous, give rise to a state based on jihad, then we can bomb without concerns for the innocent.

The UN is right to grant the people of Kosovo a right to self determination ie independence from the shackles of serbian oppression

And this, in essense, is the Serb lie to the West: That in demanding to take over an area that doesn't want to be ruled by it -- whose people it tried to genocide -- that they are fighting jihad.

No, they're not. They are trying to annex land now, just like the tried to annex all of the Balkans when Tito died and left a power vacuum.

Under not circumstances should the Serbs be allowed to rule anybody -- much less a people they tried to exterminate.

For once the UN got it right. That Russia, our mortal enemy at this point with its self-serving dealings with Iran, wants Serbia to control another whole people, should be shock enough to wake people up.

Serbia's lie in the 1990s is that it had some ethnic right to control all the other ethnic groups in the Balkans -- or to gendercide (yup, you read it right) them out of procreativity.

Now Serbia's lie is that it's fighting jihad. Total BS.

Serbia's constant bringing up events from 500 years ago to try to bolster its so-called rights over people's own voting for independence from them -- hey, would **YOU** want Milosevic to decide if YOU live or die? Mladic? -- is just the same as Muslims coming up with some jazz that the land you live on is something a bad old crusader took from them years ago.

No. This time the UN got it right. And the European Union, too, which was right next door to Serb aggression in the 1990s.

Ahtisaari said Kosovo would not accept a return of Serb rule. "This is a reality one cannot deny; it is irreversible," he wrote in the report.

In politics, nothing is forever and nothing is impossible.

Is it "irreversible" the way that the islamization of Western Europe, some keep claiming, is "irreversible"? Or is it "irreversible" the way that the Muslim conquest of the Iberian Peninsula was, in fact, "reversed"? Or Sicily retaken? Or Greece and the Balkans and Rumania and Bulgaria freed from the Ottoman masters? Or the Jews who managed to return and restore the land, and re-establish in Israel their ancient commonwealth, with no fabulous oil resources, and to fight off, repeatedly, assaults on it by circumambient Muslims who could not tolerate such a "reverse"?

Is that what Ihtisaari means by "irreversible" -- that once the Muslims push out the resident Serbs, then the only thing to do is to make the place entirely part of Dar al-Islam, for nowhere, apparently, are Muslims to have to endure what many non-Muslims have had to endure for 1350 years, which is to say, life as a minority?

Is that it?

The reason the EU and USA intervened to stop Serbia, was because they acted like beasts. The worst type of NAZI scum. To take Kosovo in isolation, is to forget they also attacked just about everybody else. Croatia, being a good example. Shelling the "strategically" important town of Dubrovnick, that was a humanitarian act.
I don't think Albania should be allowed to rule Kosovo, which is really what this all amounts to, I don't want the spread of yet more whining muslims into Europe. But I draw the line at supporting murdering, raping beasts. We have to win by being better, we could have shoved Germans into gas chambers, or become a rape machine, like the Russian army. We could have worked the Japanese to death on large industrial projects, pointing out the they surrendered and therefore didn't deserve the "honour" of life. We didn't because we're better than that.
We have to win, and keep our moral centre, it's no good looking from man to pig, and pig to man, and not being able to tell the difference.
To compromise is to die a little, and who wants to do that?

Now Serbia's lie is that it's fighting jihad. Total BS. Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

The UN's endlosung continues... Today Serbia, tomorrow Israel, day after...

i wonder why the UN say this yet resist any notion that nagorno karabakh should be independent....

i keep coming back to the concept that the UN is really the UM (united Mohammedeans)

Morgaan Sinclair:

Overall I agree with much of what you've written, that the wars that wracked Yugoslavia in the 90s had nothing to do with stopping the spread of Jihad or Islam, but all to do with Milosevic and the idea of a greater Serbia. But to nitpick:

Serbia is not trying to annex land now. Can a nation annex land that already makes up a part of it's territory? Most nations already acknowledge that Kosovo is a nominal part of Serbia, and has been since the formation of Yugoslavia after WWI and again after WWII.

Can Serbs rule other Serbs? Or should the UN step in? Ok I am being snarky.

Russia is not our mortal enemy. Nobody in power seems to realize that we (EU, North America, Russiaa) are in the same boat. Our mortal enemies are those nations that help support Islamic supremacism, i.e. Iran.

I do feel that it is well within reason that Serbia can now be an ally against Islamism, especially with the change in government.

And don't forget the actions of many Albanians after the NATO bombing - reverse ethnic cleansing, the destruction of monasteries and churches, and most importantly, the murders of the Serb minority.

Morgan Sinclair:

I somewhat agree with you on Serbia's actions.
I agree that genocide is not the answer.

What nobody seems to realise is that Serbia was badly treated during World War 2. And when Tito was leader of Yugoslavia, a lot of "unfinished business" was frozen while he was alive. As soon as he died, Yugoslavia unravelled, starting with Slovenia. Serbia's action are explainable in the light of previous history.

I'm very tired of this anti Serb crap! No one seems to care that the victims in this mess were the Serbs.

Russia seems to be the only country out there that has dealt with this issue, and seems to be the rock that may keep this country as one.

Attached below is a link of significance to the arguments anti Serbs keep posting here. Please read this link.

How much is one country supposed to put up with before we realize who the enemy is? The US has a huge cross to bear for what it did here, and she needs to step up and show the world that there is some common sense left in the US administration.

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/borojevic/053.shtml

What about southern Sudan where an Islamist government committed a real genocide. Do the Christians and Animists in south Sudan get independence?

What about Kashmiri pundits pushed out by the Islamic invaders and population growth of Muslims in Kashmir. Can they never return to their own lands?

Is Muslim invasion of the lands of non-Muslims to be recognised as a permanent feature of the world and granted respectability and UN legallity?

Islam has always invaded, conquered, converted by force or driven the native people out. This is happening to Christians in the ME right now.

What has happened in Kosovo is just another part of the Jihad against the world of the non-Muslim.

Here's another link for anyone who might care. I know I've stated this before, but Bill Clinton should be brought before the Hague for war crimes against the Serbian people.

He intentionally bombed civilian targets, including the Chinese embassy during this illegal war. Once again this war was voted against in Congress and NATO violated its own charter to become an invader when no act against any NATO countries had taken place, illegal on two fronts.

There are many reasons Kosovo should remain Serbian, but for those amongst us who differ, I would like to ask how would you feel if the international community came together and stated California has the right to leave the US and become an independent Latin state. I think you would see the absurdity of that, but somehow when it is in Europe and it involves Orthodox Christians no one seems to care.

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/088.shtml

Yeah, what's up with the anti-Serb BS? Must be new around here, Jihadwatchers usually are smarter than that. Croatia apologists are the protectors and taqiyya-meisters of the Nazi death machine. Please ally yourself with your natural Islamist allies so we can keep things sorted out straight here.

Great precedent to be setting.

What if the UN decides to give SWern states to Mexico? Do Condi and Bush go along with that?

What idiots!

US get out of the UN!
UN get out of the US!

Hi, UK Infidel Lover ...

Well, here's the rub. The Serbs say they were treated badly during WWII. The Albanians lost NOT ONE of their Jews to the Nazis because they hid them in cover, the mayor of Pristina threatened to kill the Nazi commander IN HIS OFFICE with his bare hands if requested they turn over Jews again, and then when it was clear that the Nazis weren't going to stop, they told the Nazis that the Jews all had typhoid. [That was clever!]

Meanwhile, we hear forever about the Bosian SS contingent -- but not that when they got to France they all mutinied. Actually, I believe they refused to fight in the rain. Something to think about there.

Now the problem is this: I'm tired of this "abuse excuse". We're hearing from the Serbs that they were badly treated in World War II and for however many centuries from the Muslims. Then we have the entire population of European Celts who were exterminated in the Inquisition. Then we have the Muslims whining about the fall of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, resulting in the rise of the Ikhwan in Saudi Arabia and the invention of the Muslim Brotherhood (much to counter women's lib).

If you want to look at who got treated badly in WW2, then look at the Poles -- 11 million dead. Do you see them claiming that's an excuse for them to cancel everybody's vote and take lands that don't belong to them?

Basically, the wars in the Balkans were just one thing: Tito died and left a vacuum, and then Milosevic comes along with the SERB DREAM OF EMPIRE. Well, truth is they did have an empire, and it fell apart as empires tend to do. And, frankly, the folks in Europe lost their sense of humor about it when a Serb nationalist fanatic shot the Grand Duke Ferdinand and his wife in cold blood, and started World War I.

By 1991 Milosevic had tried to claim all of the Balkans for Serbia. And then people started voting themselves out as fast as they could: the Bosnians, the Croats, the Kosovars -- both Catholic and Muslim. The Jews ran as fast as they could into Muslim territories for protection.

Then the UN disarmed the Bosnians in a misguided attempt to avoid a civil war. So the Bosnians have no weapons for self-defense. The Serbs, with ALL THE MATERIEL OF THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA then proceeded to shell a defenseless Sarajevo for THREE YEARS. That is why nobody trusts the Serbs. These guys fired on defenseless men, women and children for three years.

Then when all hell breaks loose in Kosovo, the Serbs tell their own people to leave so when they rain fire from hell no SERBS get hurt. After the atrocities reached worse than Gestapo levels, NATO, at the request of the Kosovars themselves, shelled the Serbs back into what is now Serbia. Now the Serbs are whining that the Albanians are the majority in Kosovo. So, who the hell told the Serbs to leave in the first place? The Serbs.

That Al Qaeda makes war on the West because of the loss of the "Ottoman lands" -- this is the Ottoman Empire that the Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia tried to bring down for 80 years before it fell! -- is no excuse for their war on the West.

That the Serbs had a bad time in WW2 -- which they did -- is no excuse for their trying to genocide other ethnic groups in the Balkans or for the rape camps they ran to try to demoralize others.

And we will know that the Serbs have grown in decency when they hand over Mladic, and they do know where he is.

The past is no excuse for continuing the 50 or so irredentia wars that are taking place on this planet at any time. Just choose a time, and that's how many skirmishes or wars are going on.

Now, the bottom line is this: The Jews did NOT steal the Serb "holocaust". They need to get off that.

They need to turn over Mladic.

They need to ban the websites saying that Jews cauase all the problems in the world. [See Helsinki report on that]

They also need to stop trying to intimidate other ethnic groups in the Balkans.

And they need to do it for their own good.

When the wars in the Balkans broke out, the Albanians showed Martin Luther King vidoes for three years, until the atrocities got so bad they decided to defend themselves. They won't be making that mistake again.

The Serbs gave up any rights to Kosovo when they attempted genocide, when the paramilitaries deliberately killed 7,800 people at Srebrenica, when they set up rape camps, and when they attempted to practice wholesale gendercide of non-Serb males (see gendercide.com for details on this).

And the Serbs are exhibiting tremendous hubris and an intense inability to learn from their mistakes -- or even to face them.

And I say that because if they try to take Kosovo, they will wind up without Serbia. And war could engulf all of the Balkans again. Because NOBODY IN THE BALKANS -- not the Croats, not the Catholic Kosovars, not the Bosnians, not the Albanians -- is ever going to put up with Serb rule or control again. Even the Montenegrins voted themselves out of Serbia last year.

So that's everybody: Montenegrins, Bosnians, Croats, Kosovars and Albanians -- EVERY LAST GROUP IN THE BALKANS VOTED THEMSELVES OUT OF SERB CONTROL.

That ought to be enough. Who are the Serbs -- and who are we -- to say these people must submit to the control of those who tried to exterminate them.

And the very idea that somehow we should the support the Serbs as our proxy fighters against jihad is absurd, tawdry, and utterly dishonest.

They aren't in it to fight jihad. And the folks who are really fighting jihad are the Bosnians and the Albanians who are kicking ass 24/7/365 and whose successful adventures are never seen on these pages unless I post them.

The Serb attempt to conflate their greed for land and power with the American attempt to fight terrorism is the tawdriest manipulation I've seen in quite some time.

I think our position as Americans should be to aid the Serbs with information to track terrorists -- but absolutely to refuse to be part of the ongoing Serb insanity, greed, ethnic supremacy, and lust for control that may have killed as many as 250,000 people in a decade of debased violence in which the Serbs first disarmed their victimes and them slaughtered by taking every shred of Yugoslavia armaments and materiel as their own.

The intense lobbying of the American public, using the War on Terror as leverage, has been shocking and disgusting. Srdja Trifikovic, who writes on this site, got on Fox News and lied to the American people (Dayside with Mike and Juliette), saying that the Srebrenica video was a fake. He did this after his own Serbian government vouched for its complete validity. So he lied directly to Americans ... and then wrapped by saying that Americans had come into the war in the Balkans on the wrong side.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Unless you believe that the extermination of Bosnians, Albanians, and Croats -- a total ethnic cleansing of all that is non-Serb would have been something you could actually live with.

I don't think any of us could.

For anyone who has not read the Balkans Timeline, it is available from Cambridge University. For anybody not aware of what is going on with Serb anti-Semitism the Helsinki report released last year will cause you great concern.

The bottom line is: it is only common sense that the world should not give a people again to those who tried to exterminate them.

Giving Kosovo to the Serbs would be like giving Israel to HAMAS.

The UN is right to grant the people of Kosovo a right to self determination ie independence from the shackles of serbian oppression

Posted by: Abdullah

Denn heute gehört uns Kosovo
Und morgen die ganze Welt!

Not so fast, dear Abby.. What about the Jews of Mecca. Even the KKKoran says there were Jews in Mecca BEFORE the Muhammatix began to take hold. The Jews are therefore the legitimate claimants to all of SOWdi Arabia and its oil. And Yemen. Then there are the Christians who were driven from Egypt and Syria and the Chaldaians from Iraq.

What about the Jews of turkey?

Dear Abby, you are opening a VERY deep can of worms here.

BESIDES: These Albanian "mooselimbs" are in reality the descendants of enslaved Serbians who really need to throw off the mental shackles of islam which have been forced upon them by the Beast Suleyman.

There is NO room in Europe for islam!

islam is an alien entity - RAUS DAMIT!

An open chancre sore on the face of Europe swollen with jihad-terrorists, pimps, drug dealers and 'Holy-Warriors- for-Export. Isn't it too late? How can this 'thing' ever again be part of Serbia? Fait accompli. Oh well, on the bright side Muslims tend to concentrate themselves into clearly defined targets when their push comes to our shove.

Human Rights Nightmare

Speech before UN Human Rights Council 4th Session
23 March 2007

Delivered by Hillel Neuer, Executive Director of UN Watch

Mr. President,

Six decades ago, in the aftermath of the Nazi horrors, Eleanor Roosevelt, Réné Cassin and other eminent figures gathered here, on the banks of Lake Geneva, to reaffirm the principle of human dignity. They created the Commission on Human Rights. Today, we ask: What has become of their noble dream?

In this session we see the answer. Faced with compelling reports from around the world of torture, persecution, and violence against women, what has the Council pronounced, and what has it decided?

Nothing. Its response has been silence. Its response has been indifference. Its response has been criminal.

One might say, in Harry Truman’s words, that this has become a Do-Nothing, Good-for-Nothing Council.

But that would be inaccurate. This Council has, after all, done something.

It has enacted one resolution after another condemning one single state: Israel. In eight pronouncements—and there will be three more this session—Hamas and Hezbollah have been granted impunity. The entire rest of the world—millions upon millions of victims, in 191 countries—continue to go ignored.

So yes, this Council is doing something. And the Middle East dictators who orchestrate this campaign will tell you it is a very good thing. That they seek to protect human rights, Palestinian rights.

So too, the racist murderers and rapists of Darfur women tell us they care about the rights of Palestinian women; the occupiers of Tibet care about the occupied; and the butchers of Muslims in Chechnya care about Muslims.

But do these self-proclaimed defenders truly care about Palestinian rights?

Let us consider the past few months. More than 130 Palestinians were killed by Palestinian forces. This is three times the combined total that were the pretext for calling special sessions in July and November. Yet the champions of Palestinian rights—Ahmadinejad, Assad, Khaddafi, John Dugard—they say nothing. Little 3-year-old boy Salam Balousha and his two brothers were murdered in their car by Prime Minister Haniyeh’s troops. Why has this Council chosen silence?

Because Israel could not be blamed. Because, in truth, the dictators who run this Council couldn’t care less about Palestinians, or about any human rights.

They seek to demonize Israeli democracy, to delegitimize the Jewish state, to scapegoat the Jewish people. They also seek something else: to distort and pervert the very language and idea of human rights.

You ask: What has become of the founders’ dream? With terrible lies, it is being turned into a nightmare.

Thank you, Mr. President.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UN HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL PRESIDENT LUIS ALFONSO DE ALBA:

For the first time in this session I will not express thanks for that statement. I shall point out to the distinguished representative of the organization that just spoke, the distinguished representative of United Nations Watch, if you'd kindly listen to me. I am sorry that I'm not in a position to thank you for your statement. I should mention that I will not tolerate any similar statements in the Council. The way in which members of this Council were referred to, and indeed the way in which the council itself was referred to, all of this is inadmissible. In the memory of the persons that you referred to, founders of the Human Rights Commission, and for the good of human rights, I would urge you in any future statements to observe some minimum proper conduct and language. Otherwise, any statement you make in similar tones to those used today will be taken out of the records.

there is a link at Youtube...

Speaking of Condi's dangerous diplomacy, she now wants Israel to negotiate on the basis of the Saudi "peace plan." She seems to serve Saudi interests more than American interests. And Saudi Arabia is a state that practices a system much like jimcrow or apartheid, although based on religion, rather than skin color or biological race.

As to Kossovo, several posters above are very ignorant of the real history of that area. Under Ottoman rule, the Serbs were oppressed in Kossovo by Albanian Muslim chieftains and by the Ottoman state.

Also, what really happened there during the 1990s is a matter of controversy. There was a lot of deceitful reporting on Kossovo in the US press in the 1990s. See link for some of the seldom historical reality of Kossovo:
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about.html

correction:
see link for some of the seldom known nowadays historical reality of Kossovo
http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about.html

European Crusader ...

I've sent your post claiming I am a "dirty Islamist" and an "Al Qaeda" agent to forum security and requested it be removed.

Apparently, it's not OK with you if someone has a different opinion than you, one based on historical fact.

This little diatribe of yours is particularly enlightening, as it echoes so perfectly the "ethnic cleasing" element of Serb thinking:

QUOTING: The Serbs don't want to rule any other people that doesn't want to be ruled by them. The muslims in kosovo can simply go home to albania or saudi arabia. END QUOTE.

Actually, the Muslims in Kosovo LIVE there, not in Albania or Saudi Arabia. But the ethnic cleansing thinking here is, again, as always, disturbing.

You lack any semblance of civilized behavior. That people who simply will not support genocide, mass rape, ethnic cleasing, forced deporation and hte like should be call "Al Qaeda" or "dirty Islamist" is an indication of what YOU are, not what I am.

No lies have been told by me. A lot of libel has been done by you.

And they impeached Clinton for the Lewinsky business!
He set up two islmic states in Mainland Europe and bombed his wartime allies for goodness sake.

Morgaan Sinclair you missed out on one simple fact, the Muslims living in that region came to be there by ethnic cleansing and Islamic conquest.

I guess that doesn't mean much to many people does it?

I agree with The Fanatic.

Serbia are good patriotic Europeans and now that we've 'rewarded' them with NATO bombings we should have the decency to refrain from verbal abuse.

Here's another fine example of how moslems REALLY feel:

From a german news discussion site:

Turkey Head of State Recip Erogan while he was mayor of occupied Konstantinopoulos:

"Die Demokratie ist nur der Zug, auf den wir aufsteigen, bis wir am Ziel sind. Die Moscheen sind unsere Kasernen, die Minarette unsere Bajonette, die Kuppeln unsere Helme und die Gläubigen unsere Soldaten."

"Democracy is but a train which we shall board until we have reached our destination [aims or objectives]. The mosks are our military Barracks, the minarets are our bayonets, the cupolas are our helmets and the Believers are our soldiers."

This is the Head of State in Turkey. What else do I need to say?

Oh and by the way.. hos daughter is studying right here in the Good Ole US of A. You want to know WHY she CHOOSES to study here?!

Because she can wear her headscarf which she isn't allowed to wear by Turkish Law.

They're playing possum till they get in the EU, my friends!

If we hand them Kosovo on the backs of Serbia then we will one day have to hand them South Sweden and Norway! We will have to hand them London and other cities in England! We'll have to hand them vast portions of Germany France and Spain!

The United Nations are working to DESTROY and DISMANTLE EUROPE - NO LESS is what is going on here.

God I hate to be a prophet but I SEE it coming! I FEEL it in every fiber of my body.

Let us DEFEND Serbia!! Serbia is the Canary in the European coalmine.

Dear npabga ...

I believe that The Hague is prosecuting cases right now that have to do with crimes AGAINST the Serbs carried out by Bosnians. There are other cases coming up shortly against a couple of Croats, and, I think, an Albanian. 60% of the war crimes cases are against Serbs. The other 40% are against all other groups combined.

Serbia could be a great ally against jihadism *** IF *** it were not opposed to all Muslims with the intent of ethnically cleansing or genociding them. That's what makes the current problem so unfortunate. The behavior of the Serbs in the 1990s, the complete unwillingness to face what went on, the upsurge in "Serb radical nationalism" (self-named!) makes them an untrustworthy partner for us, because we can't trust them not to lose it and simply kill a whole bunch of people.

Everybody from Daniel Pipes to Paul Wolfowitz and many others have indicated that the general Islamic temperament in the Balkans is highly Europeanized and is one of the best pluralistic models around. The Albanian Catholics and Muslims have got along famously. And that Albanians (among them Catholics) have destroyed some Orthodox shrines and churhces is absolutely reprehensible. And I think the Orthodox Serbs destroyed some 1,700 mosques in the Balkans during the 1990s.

That doesn't excuse the Albanians from anything -- all crimes should be tried and convictions carrying sentences meted out. Period. No excuses. Enough of these damned excuses. They all sound like jihadists when they do this if you ask me.

On Kosovo: When a bunch of people try to ethnically cleanse everybody else -- tell their own people to leave Kosovo becuase they intend to raze every living thing there to ground -- then they should not be surprised if the Kosovars who remained and went through that hell don't want them back and don't want to be part of Serbia.

I think the UN statement today is indicative of the impossibility of Kosovo remaining (or becoming again) a part of Serbia. And this is what happens when an ethnic group goes too far.

When this sort of thing came down in Germany, the Jews left, and created Israel. The Albanians aren't going to flee. That is their home now, and they will stay.

And it is the Serb use of the totality of the materiel of the former Yugoslavia against non-Serb ethnic groups, many unarmed and unable to obtain arms for years, is what makes this irresolvable in terms of a return of Kosovo to Serb control.

Now, the main propagandan problem here is the lie the Serbs are telling now: and that lie is that it is a Serb Christian goodie-two-shoes fight against jihad that is going on here. It is not. Nor was it ever.

Here is a report from the International Crisis Group, written in 2001, but absolutely indicative of the real situation among the Albanians in Kosovo. It is a solid analysis of what went on:

QUOTING:

Religion in Kosovo

Europe Report N°105
31 January 2001
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

This report seeks to describe the current position of the three major religious communities in Kosovo. In part, it aims to clarify misconceptions about the involvement of religion in the Kosovo conflict. It also proposes some areas where religion might serve as a means to encourage reconciliation among the peoples of Kosovo.

Three religions – Islam, Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, have long coexisted in Kosovo. A large majority of Kosovo Albanians consider themselves, at least nominally, to be Muslim. A minority, about 60,000, are Catholic. Most Kosovo Serbs, even those who are not active religious believers, consider Orthodoxy to be an important component of their national identity. Nevertheless, despite this essential division of religious activities along ethnic lines, it cannot be said that religion per se was an important contributing factor in the conflict between Serbs and Albanians.

Kosovo Albanians do not define their national identity through religion, but through language and have a relatively relaxed approach towards the observance of the forms of the Islamic religion. Neither Islamic leaders nor Islamic theology played a significant role in either the eight-year campaign of non-violent resistance to the Serb occupation regime or the armed resistance of 1998-99. Islamic political and social fundamentalism, as that term is understood with respect to the Middle East, has very little resonance in Kosovo.

The image of Kosovo Serbs and their monasteries, usually portrayed as suffering harassment and persecution by the Albanian majority population, formed a part of the nationalist propaganda that Milosevic and his supporters used to manipulate popular emotions. The Serbian Orthodox Church, however, was always divided over Milosevic. It initially supported him in large part to end what it saw as the victimisation of the Serb nation under Communism and to reverse the decline of the Serb presence in Kosovo. But Milosevic’s Communist career made the Church uneasy, as did his use of violence. By the early 1990s, Patriarch Pavle was publicly criticising Milosevic although some other members of the Orthodox hierarchy continued to support him. After the 1999 war, Bishop Artemije, the head of the Orthodox Church in Kosovo, assumed the leadership of those Serbs willing to work with the International community there.

During the war, Serb forces destroyed numerous Islamic facilities, including virtually all Islamic libraries and archives. After the war, Albanians replied by destroying scores of Orthodox churches. These acts of reciprocal vandalism seemed motivated on both sides more by the desire to eradicate the evidence of the other's presence in Kosovo than by religious fanaticism.

The Serbian and Albanian religious communities have been more willing to talk to each other than other sectors of Kosovo society. As early as March 1999, before the NATO-led intervention, representatives appointed by the leaders of the three main religious communities in Kosovo (Islamic, Orthodox and Roman Catholic) held a joint meeting in Pristina that was convened by the World Conference on Religion and Peace (WCRP) to facilitate dialogue. The representatives expressed opposition to the misuse of religion for political reasons on all sides and called on all parties not to use religious symbols to promote violence or intolerance. They also expressed their determination to maintain direct contacts between the religious communities and to build channels of communication. An informal level of dialogue has continued on a regular basis between some members of the three main religious communities. These interfaith meetings still contain some risks for the participants, but they can be useful for facilitating a better climate of tolerance and understanding between the ethnic communities and might appropriately be the focus of greater international community support.

END QUOTE: [REF: http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=1591&l=1]

Now ... since 9/11 the Muslims all over the Balkans have been under absolutely siege by the Saudis. Last week the Bosnian revoked 400 visas, mostly Saudi, to banish the trouble-makers out of Bosnia. Any Saudi Wahhabi who thinks they count on overtaking Kosovo with the Albanians there is a fool indeed. In fact, if the Serbs know what they're doing, they will leave the Albanians in Kosovo right where they are, because there is no possibility that the Albanian men are EVER, EVER, EVER going to let a Wahhabi push around an Albanian woman. That's not going to happen.

There was a famous case where an Albanian during Ottoman Empire times converted to Chrsitianity. The Muslim commandos in the area, this being an important guy, took him all the way to Istanbul to be tried before the Sultan himself. The Sultan took one at the guy and told them to leave him alone. Why? Becuase,said the Sultan, the religion of Albanians (as shown above) is not Islam, it's Albania.

Now, I think it's terribly unfortunate that the Serbs told all the Serb ethnic peoples in Kosovo to leave. But it must be acknowledged that the reason they did so is that what they intended to do these people -- and, in fact, what they did -- was so horrible they didn't want any Serb to suffer it. And what the Serbs did in Kosovo was so terrible that the Albanians there, the Kosovar Catholics, and the ethnic Christian Croats (majority of Croats are Christians) begged NATO to bomb them, knowing they would lose tens of thousands of people in friendly fire deaths. But they were tortured to death anyway, which is why the Kosovars gave the order for NATO to bomb their own people. It had to stop.

Ten years is never enough when are talking about something like this. It is the most astonishing hubris that the Serbs would actually try to do this to the people living in Kosovo now after what they did less than 15 years ago. It will take generations ... and only then if there is great peace and kindness going from the Serbs to the people of Kosovo of all religions and ethnic groups.

So, at this point, Serbia as an ally against supposed jihadism -- a lie -- on the part of the majority of Muslism in the Balkans is untrustworthy, an act of egregious lying and subterfuge that the American people shouldn't fall for.

And all those "disciples" of the government of Serbia in the United States who are pretending to be pundits but are really repreentatives of foreign powers should register as such with the state department.

hugh

so we can promote, encourage and morally support the far-right serbian hardline nationalists, yet to even squeak about a certain british nationalistic party then out comes the ignorant rants and wild accusations of racism and being a nazi from certain posters. please explain...

Comparing the Serbs to Hamas is GALLING!

You have some NERVE!!

Do you have ANY idea what they've been doing to the Balkan peoples for centuries??

We're here in the 'relative' safety of the United States!

The Serbs have lived surrounded by islam for CENTURIES!! They finally have HAD it!!

What you saw there is NOTHING compared to what you will see in the future if islamic infiltration into Europe is allowed to continue.

There will be bloodshed and violence of untold proportions on both sides.

We Europeans simply CANNOT tolerate what they are doing to us under the noses of our 'watchful' governments.

THAT is the reality of today!

Serbia has been in the middle of this for far too long. We've had our backs turned against them - don't ask me why.

I only hope that Mother Russia won't let the hostile UN carve up her "young".

Many people in Germany are beginning to express their support for Serbia. Now that we KNOW what islam is like. Now that we are experiencing the pleasures of living with jihad in our daily lives.

NO WAY will I allow anyone to say anything against Serbia!

Allahfanculo ...

Unfortunately for you, we still have free speech in this country.

BTW, I did not say Serbia *was* HAMAS. I drew a perfectly legitimate analogy. Serbia tried to genocide the Kosovar Albanians -- who tried peaceful resistance for EIGHT YEARS before really pushing back. The attempt by Serbia was to exterminate these people -- roughly equivalent to the sworn intent of HAMAS toward the Israelis.

The reverse however is not true. The Albanians, Croats, and Bosnians did NOT try to exterminate the Serbs at all. This was a war, or series of wars, that Serbs started, and had NATO not intervened they would have succeeded in exterminating ever non-Serb ethnic group in the Balkans.

Sorry, but the Serbs have the responsibility to take.

Please read the analysis from Crisis Center above. It's the most succinct analysis of religion and ethnic concerns in the Balkans that I can find for you.

The identity of Albanians is Albanian principally, not Muslim, and an attempt by Serb disinformationalists to portray the Albanians, who let themselves be attacked for EIGHT YEARS before responding in kind, as jihadists is beneath the dignity of any honorable person to engage in.

The Fanatic.

You wrote: Morgaan Sinclair you missed out on one simple fact, the Muslims living in that region came to be there by ethnic cleansing and Islamic conquest.

OK, but here you go doing it again. We all say that the Muslim jihadists have NO BUSINESS going back 500 years to imagined or real bad things done to people they have never known and using that as an excuse to attack us.

You think the Christians living in Nigeria didn't get there by conquest? You think the Christians living in the United States didn't get there by conquest? You think all the people with white blood in South America didn't get there by conquest? What? 500 years ago?

Even of these excuses for genocide! No more! Not by them! Not by us!

So are you actually saying that the Serbs can ethnically cleanse all the Muslim in the Balkans -- all of whom have the same Balkans blood as the Serbs -- becuase 500 years ago the Ottomans came in -- but let the Orthodox and Catholic churches remain? Apparently, tax or not tax, the Ottomans at least didn't try the genocide that the Serbs tried in the 1990s.

Do try to remember this: The Albanians tried peaceful resistance for EIGHT YEARS -- and at the time Milosevic started it, Kosovo was ALREADY majority Muslim. That's why ethnic cleansing was tried. It's not suddenly that AFTER the war it's majority Muslim.

Please don't ever try to justify genocide on past conflicts. It's what Al Qaeda does all the time. They just declare something Dar-al-Islam and claim it. It's juvenile, but also extremely dangerous and unfair.

Kosovo is the historical heart of Serbia from a political and religious point of view.

The Serbs giving up Kosovo is tantamount to the Jews giving up Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

I disagree with U.S. policy concerning the partitioning of Kosovo. Russia has got it right.

Unfortunately, most westerners have been misinformed by the past events in Kosovo.

They have no knowledge about the religious destruction of Serbian Churches in Kosovo and the ethnic cleansing of the Christian Serbian population by the Muslim Albanians, especially following the U.S. aerial assault led by President Clinton and Gen. Wesley Clark.

The actual history of the war in Kosovo, I am unsure of and not qualified to speak about.

That being said, Morgaan has a deep, meaningful opinion on the matter. The lack of outright "corretions" from the administrators of this site in reference to her postings speaks volumes to me, however.

Many community members may, and judging from the postings on this thread apparently do, disagree with her, particularly regarding this historical topic. So be it.

In my opinion, Morgaan's postings are not now, nor have they ever been, synonomous with those from a pro-jihadist, pro-Islamic mindset. To accuse her of that, is irresponsible, at best.

Now that Russia is getting its economic act together, lets hope she stands up to NATO. When the war-criminal Clinton bombed Yugoslavia to aid the Albanian genocide of Kosovo Serbs, he knew that Russia was broken, weak, and ruled by the incompetent Yeltsin.

Now the situation is different. Russia can tell NATO to get out of Kosovo or risk war. Threatening to nuke London should be sufficient to get NATOs attention but such extreme matters wont be neccesary. Most of Europe is dependent on Russian oil and gas. Let the Europeans know they have two weeks to vacate Kosovo or the oil and gas will be sold to China instead.

Once NATO is forced out of Kosovo, the area can be pacified the same way Chechnya was pacified. I don't mean the way Putin brought peace to Chechnya but by the more effective methods used by Stalin back in 1943. Apllying that lesson to Kosovo, Serbian troops, assisted by Russian and Chinese special forces can give the Albanians 48 hours to leave for good. If they resist, kill them. Afterward, the Serbs who are now refugees can return to their homes and rebuild what the Muslims have destroyed.

I'm sure Morgaan will accuse me of advocating genocide, well so be it! Ethnic cleansing is a two-way street. No one cared about the Albanian genocide of Kosovo Serbs so now it's time these Albanian murderers got payback. Afterward, Russia and Serbia can liberate Bosnia from the Muslims as well as liberating Krajina. Then it's on to Constantinople.

As for Mr. Ahtisaari, Russia can reward him by re-annexing Finland. Perhaps we shall once again hear a Russian army sing the beautiful 1805 Preobrajensky March "Znayut-turki" ("We are known to Turks and Swedes"). Long live the Third Rome!

Morgaan Sinclair

So thus we allow the muslim to mass murder the christians so we in the west can pat ourselves on the back and say see the serbs were bad too. I don't care what the serbs did in the past Morgaan because the jihadist will use the neo-albania to furthur conquest into Europe. That hurts us.

As for Croatia they were no better then the Serbs. I don't wish to bring the fact that the Nazis in WWII got support from many Croatians. I don't hear you crying over that.

Let me put it this way the Croatians, Serbs, the rest of Europe and Morgaan Sinclair better wake up and get over it because the hot shot arabs are going to use this new land of Allah to furthur their ends.....

The fall of Europe.

Morgaan Sinclair

"Please don't ever try to justify genocide on past conflicts. It's what Al Qaeda does all the time. They just declare something Dar-al-Islam and claim it. It's juvenile, but also extremely dangerous and unfair."

It is juvenile to think a Albanian proxy state with cash from Saudia Arabia and friends is good for us non-muslims. What do you think the new Kosovo will be?

Dar-al-Islam!

Shame on all who would give this Criminal/Jihad
Enterprise known as Kosovo{for now} Independence.
Why wouldn't they? after all they have covered up their crimes of rape, churchburning, beheadings etc....all to appease the Islamists and painting the Serbs as the eternal villain.
EUrabia has sunk to a new low, as expected, but what of America, I say shame on you for your complicity once again with the K.L.F, Oh sorry, they are now democratic diplomats. But We know where they've come from, those that assisted your rise and how you behaved when you had enemy prisoners, what you done when you invaded Christian Churches, Independent Kosovo thy name is Jihad.

people on here are advocating genocide but when we speak of the BNP we are slated, cut down, banned from jihadwatch and accussed of being racists and bigots????????????? the admin on here have a total lack of knowledge of the BNP. (yes this is off topic but promoting serbian nationalism and putting down british nationalism seems slightly hypocritical)

Kosovo's independance must never happen. This is ground zero for the islamization of Europe. Kosovo always was and always will be part of serbia. Don't believe the anti serb propoganda. Clinton brought al-queda in the balkans to fight the serbs.

I still don't know why the troll Morgan sinclair is allowed to post here. Morgan, mohamed or whatever your name is be honest about who you are. No one wants to read your aimless rants.

The University of Illinois sports program will no longer be represented by the Fighting Illini. It turns out that the Illini tribe has been completely wiped out by a rival tribe and a representative is not available to endorse the honor that the State was trying to bestow upon it.

Mankind in its current form is the fruit of genocide. That is the ugly truth.

4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

They would skin your children in a heartbeat. You can’t fight a 8th Century enemy with an early 21st Century Western mindset. Time to step back and watch. These things have a way of working themselves out.

Robert

The Serbs do not have clean hands. The Serbs massacred in the cruelest of ways many Kosovar, Bosniand and Albanian women men and children and were actively engaged in ethnic cleansing. This doesnt absolve the Muslim atrocities, but it would be nice if you at least acknowledged that acts of genocide occurred by the Serbs.

You wrote:

The continued ill-treatment of Serbia paints a powerful picture for the rest of the world: resist jihad and the UN will cut you to pieces.

Serbia didnt stop at resisting jihad, it engaged in deliberate acts of genocide. Again, the Muslims contributed to this through their own activity. Serbia went too far.

oh geez :)

Man, looks like this thread has devolved into something nasty.

Morgaan Sinclair, I am glad to see you back up your points with facts and further reading. It is appreciated.

Yes I agree that Serbia must do more to acknowledge past wrongs, to be a *better* ally against violent jihad and Islam. Having last summer traveled through all of the former People's Republics, excepting Slovenia, I could attest to the damages of war, from Dubrovnik to Sarajevo to Beograd.

But our staunchest ally in Asia, Japan, has just recently refused for a second time this week to admit it had thousands of forced sex workers from WWII. Why do I bring this up? Because we can't pick our allies sometimes. To paraphrase former US Secretary of State Cordell Hull, they may be SOBs, but they are SOBs who share our same interests.

Japan still hasn't acknowledged past wrongs, though we should expect Serbia to? Well I think we should expect this from both countries, states that I would consider "natural allies" unlike the double crossing or dishonest Pakistan or Saudi Arabia.

In addition, Kosovo has historically been a part of Serbian identity. I don’t like to use this as a source but wikipedia has some interesting info on the history of Kosovo’s demography. (Take with the obligatory salt truck of salt)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo

Of note is the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in the late 1800s by the Turks and Albania as well as by Italy during WWII. During these years, the population is shown to be practically equal. Before this, the land was primarily Serb.
The fact that the Serbs still want to hold onto Kosovo can be explained in part to its importance as a part of Serbian identity.

Take care.

In my opinion, Morgaan's postings are not now, nor have they ever been, synonomous with those from a pro-jihadist, pro-Islamic mindset. To accuse her of that, is irresponsible, at best. Posted by: awake

New or not, while we have and respect differences of opinion, one thing JihadWatchers aren't known for doing is supporting Jihad anywhere. If it's okay to state that Serbs shouldn't be allowed to determine the fate of Albanian infiltrators into Kosovo (what else does one call an Islamic campaign to reduce Serbian territory and expel ethnic Serbs from Kosovo?), what would be wrong with somebody stating, similarly, that Israel shouldn't be allowed to determine the fate of 'Palestinian' Muslims? Again, if it's okay to expel Serbs from Kosovo, what's wrong with expelling Kashmiri Pandits from Srinagar or Anantnag? And if it was okay for NATO to bomb Serbia, why doesn't NATO take military action against Russia - too shit scared that they'd be nuked, or have Po sprayed on their meals? Regardless of what one thinks of Serbia vis a vis the Croats, the Montenegrins and the Macedonians (I actually happen to be ambivalent about Serbia's other conflicts with their neighbors), one thing they do not deserve is to be opposed by the likes of us when they are confronting an Albanian (read Islamic) attempt to carve out a portion of their country, expel their populace, and then either create an Islamic Kosovo or annex it to Albania.

To be honest, I have more respect for Muslims who support Jihad everywhere, than I do for Infidels who oppose Jihad against some countries (like, say, US, Israel, India) but endorse it against Serbia or Russia.

Now the situation is different. Russia can tell NATO to get out of Kosovo or risk war. Threatening to nuke London should be sufficient to get NATOs attention but such extreme matters wont be neccesary. Most of Europe is dependent on Russian oil and gas. Let the Europeans know they have two weeks to vacate Kosovo or the oil and gas will be sold to China instead.

I love your solutions. After all, in 1914, Russia declared war on Austria, which had a far more justified pretext in declaring war on Serbia - the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand at Sarajevo. While Serbia may have been behind that, there is no reason that Serbia should be at the receiving end of Western belligerence on behalf of the ummah. Volodaya Pootie-Poot needs to develop the same sort of testicular fortitude that Tsar Nikolai II had, when Russia declared war on Austria.

I don't know that I like the 'peaceful' oil solution as much. If they go that route, the West (meaning us included) will be even more dependent on the ummah. The level of our dependency is sickening as it is.

I'm sure Morgaan will accuse me of advocating genocide, well so be it! Ethnic cleansing is a two-way street. No one cared about the Albanian genocide of Kosovo Serbs so now it's time these Albanian murderers got payback. Afterward, Russia and Serbia can liberate Bosnia from the Muslims as well as liberating Krajina. Then it's on to Constantinople.

As for Mr. Ahtisaari, Russia can reward him by re-annexing Finland. Perhaps we shall once again hear a Russian army sing the beautiful 1805 Preobrajensky March "Znayut-turki" ("We are known to Turks and Swedes"). Long live the Third Rome! Posted by: Provoslavni

Actually, I'm rooting for Russia to annex Western Europe instead of Eastern Europe this time - they might be doing them some big favors, particularly in the department of Islamization.

Haidon

Greg Davis wrote this article

I think that many posters here are conflating the Bosnian and Albanian Muslims as part of the wide network of violent jihad. This does not bear out under scrutiny.

Are there some Albanian and Bosnian Muslims who subscribe to Salafism, to violent jihad, or the goal of a world caliphate? Yes, there most probably are. However, the wars that wracked the former Yugoslavia were not religious in nature, particularly in the 90s, and therefore had no part to play in the global jihad, although the end result does seem to help the Dar al-Islam.

People who have recently thrown off decades of communist and by default atheist rule, regardless of their nominal religious affiliation, are not prone to religious extremism. In Russia, where I lived for sometime, it was perfectly fine to see a Muslim and Jew work together. I had them in my class and had them work together, without any animosity or problems between them.

The same is true for the former Yugoslav Republics. Religion is just another label, and is rarely practiced with devotion, whether by Orthodox, Catholic, or Muslim.

Now that being said, could this Islam, the one: (mentioned by Morgaan Sinclair) "Daniel Pipes to Paul Wolfowitz and many others have indicated that the general Islamic temperament in the Balkans is highly Europeanized and is one of the best pluralistic models around" Turn aggressive and regress? Yes, because it is my belief that this highly Europeanized Islam has nothing to do with the melding of cultures, the type that many Euro politicians base a false hope on developing from immigrants, but everything to do with the fact that Communism thrashed out completely all religious belief. Communism created this wonderful, almost secular Islam. But as the old generation dies out, and their offspring are left with their religious labels, you will see the destruction of "Europeanized Islam".

I remember being in Sarajevo at the old tunnel that ran under the airport, the one that was the life-blood of the besieged city, and noting that the Saudi flag was prominently displayed along with the US's. Just the start of a resurgence I am afraid, as the house of Saud gets its tendrils into a new fissure, or as people discover their family history.

Will most Muslims in Bosnia and Albania do this? I don't think so, particularly the 'Bosniaks'. But time will tell.

Provoslavni:

As much as I would like to see a strong Russia, this is not the type of Russia that would be a good "natural ally" against Islam.

Russia feels that it is now a force to be reckoned with, thanks to its oil wealth, so much that the Minister of Foreign Affairs Ivanov said "Russia could teach the west about economics". But this strength is just bluster. Take away its oil and gas wealth, and the Russian economy is shrinking. The Russian government is not investing in other industries, small business owners, or looking after Russians in general - to say nothing of the worsening demographic crisis. The Russian government is all about "image" but is not dealing with the deeper structural issues that make a true strong nation.

For me the issue is, Russia needs to clean house (rampant drug and alcohol abuse, too many abortions, an exploding AIDs rate, the spread of Islam, the depopulation of Siberia, huge increases in immigration) before it should look abroad. And it is my biggest hope that Russia will put a stop to all these problems today.

And again I cannot wrap my mind around why Russia wants even more Muslims by annexing Abkhazia. This just leads me to believe that those who run Russia do not care about Russia.

Also, forced population transfers are such a serious issue, and in general extremely bloody, that they should be done in the most extreme circumstances, and by their very nature are unjust. It is no surprise but paranoid Uncle Joe, hardly the example of a benevolent leader, has done most of these transfers in recent history. Should the Albanians in Kosovo have to put up with this? No. Their actions do not rise at all up to par with the Germans in the Sudeten, despite how they have acted under KFOR.
Мамочка, помоги доктору!

Sorry about that stuff at the bottom, it is code

I love this site. I live in Jerusalem in the heart of Muslim terror. I'm heartily anti-Muslim. But can we please not pretend that the Serbians didn't commit horrific atrocities against the Muslims of Bosnia? Can we please remember the mass "rape camps" where thousands of Muslim women and LITTLE GIRLS were brutally raped, for months on end, by hundreds of Serbian soldiers, until they either died or became pregnant? The Bosnian Muslims were not your typical Islamic fascists and I don't know what they did to deserve that kind of treatment.

Sorry, but Serbians are utterly revolting to me. I will never forget what they did. This is a case where "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" does not apply for me.

AmericanJewess

Welcome to JihadWatch. I'm disappointed by your outlook. I'd recommend this article, which was reproduced in DhimmiWatch last month by Julia Gorin, where she points out that Jews, who would like to get a fair hearing for Israel from the rest of the world, should accord the same courtesy to Serbia. To wit:

As a Jew who expects people to do their homework before taking a position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I became committed to doing my homework on the Balkans in 1999. It’s too bad that, eight years later, my fellow Jews still haven’t bothered.

If they had, they would see that the Serbs have been the canary's canary. What the world is trying to do to Israel is what it succeeded in doing to Serbia, which no longer has sovereignty, border integrity (the international community decides what is and isn’t Serbia’s), the right to protect its borders and to defend its citizens. And when Serbia dares to utter a peep of protest to these criminal infringements, it gets piled on by politicians and media alike (most consistently by The Wall St. Journal).

Infidel Pride

Thanks for that clarification, I should have read a bit closer. I see it is Greg Davis. To be honest, I think Davis is a bit of a lunatic. He's written some pretty shocking things, such as unqualified support for Serbian anti-terror efforts, even when they become tantamount to genocide.

I agree, people who support the fight against jihad in some places and not others are hypocrites. But let's separate fighting jihad from committing acts of genocide. If you deny the fact that acts of genocide took place by the Serbs (and Muslims to I might add), then you are no better than a holocaust denier. There are two sides to this conflict. That should be reflected in his analysis.

No party in this conflict can claim moral superiority.

Thomas

@ Morgaan Sinclair

please take care of yourself. U can get a spasm of your fingers. And I dont wanna see yet another wictim of Serbian agression.

Haidon

I don't deny that any genocides took place. I however agree with Rush Limbaugh that "There are no such things as war crimes - war itself is a crime." (something he wrote re: the characterization in the media of the Contra campaign against the Sandinistas in Nicaragua in the 80s.) I'll maintain that there's a fine line between fighting Jihads, and commiting genocide, particularly given that civilian populations for Muslims were and are pawns to be used in advancing Muslim interests.

If Muslims don't want to be at the receiving end of genocides, there is a simple solution to it: don't start any jihads!

American Jewess
Were you acutally there and SAW A RAPE CAMP? Or are you repeating parrot fashion what the media-and Bosnian Muslims were clever enough to use
a JEWISH Firm- who in turn used example of Jewish Holocaust in their propaganda against the Serbs.
In reality Jews died with Serbs in WW2-both were
declared 'Subhuman' & anything,literally anything
could be done to them.Take a look,my dear,at photos taken by Croatian Nazis themselves at what happened in Jasenovac where few if any Croats were ever charged for crimes which even revolted their German friends.Did you know LITTLE
SERB CHILDREN there were fed caustic soda mixed with scraps of food ,there are photos of emaciated little kids,the few who
survived the Hell of Jasenovac.There are photos of goodlooking blond Croatian men laughing & merry as they prepare to use a saw,a knife & finally a pistol on a bewildered Serb Farmer.
One of the most poignant is a pretty Serb woman
with her five children;all of them looking well nourished & cared for-her cherished little darlings-lost
forever-can only hope their deaths were swift!
No doubt the same happened to Jews and Roma...
Nowdays there is propaganda on every hand to say
that JEWS ARE DEMONS,THEY ARE EVIL,THEY ARE[FINAL
IRONY]NAZIS!! Hope I am not so stupid as to believe what the Anti Jewish media say and I don't. In fact I honour and respect Israel in its
struggle surrounded on every side by hostile Muslim neighbours.
It was a LIE which led me to any interest or defence of previously demonized Serbs.There are
journalists out there who did SEE another side of
the story & aren't afraid to say so although their voices have been stifled or discounted by
U.N, NATO & U.S.
As for Morgaan Sinclair's hysterical abuse of anything pertaining to Serbs-so you had a 'University Line'-well bully for you-guess you must know everything that happened in Bosnia[without you being there!!] To both of you-ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS THOSE 'DEMON SERBS' PUT ENEMY
WOMEN & CHILDREN ON BUSES WHERE MOST ARRIVED SAFELY-hey don't seem to recall the Nazis doing
that do you?? Also once again numbers of Dead are
distorted-much touted 200,000 figure has now admitted to be 100,000 dead-verified by BOSNIAN MUSLIMS.
Please note that David Hicks,that wee Aussie Angel,whiter than white Muslim WAS IN KOSOVO HELPING HIS ALBANIAN BROS before he took off for
Jihad in Afghanistan.
Final ironic note is seeming evidence Richard Holbrooke signed a secret deal with Karadzic-if Radovan 'disappeared from politics,agreement was he would be 'protected' from the Hague Court & live in reasonable comfort
on 600,000 U.S dollars.[Guess there was plenty they didn't want Karadzic to talk about...]
Wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar deal
with Mladic,eh.

Infidel Pride

I agree with you. I don't support an independent Kosovar or Bosnian state because of their activities. However, accountability demands that people who kill civilians and engage in genocide and ethnic cleansing, whether Muslim or Serb, must be held accountable. This is why I support the work of the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia.

As jihad continues we are likely to see more Serbs emerging. This is why we Muslims need to wake up, and do so fast. Non-Muslims have a threshold that is about to be reached.

Morgane, did I say anywhere that the Croats were innocent victims of Serbian aggression? No, I did not. I didn't even mention the Croats at all. I know they were Nazi collaborators. I know the Serbs were victims in WWII. I know that Bosnia's Muslim government was making subtle moves to put more Muslims into power before the war there. I know. I know. I know.

My point is that rape, gang rape, rape of little girls especially, are heinous crimes, and the Serbians engaged in this activity EN MASSE. I distrust the media, yes, but this story, I believe. There is simply too much evidence and you only look like a fool when you deny it.

Lastly, how dare you compare Israeli Jews to Serbian Christians? Don't ever do that again. Tell me WHERE are the stories of mass rapes of Palestinian women by Jewish soldiers? Even the pathological liars of the mainstream media and the Arab world can't bring themselves to tell a whopper of that magnitude. It never happened, isn't happening now, and will never happen. It is not the way we fight. It is not who we are as Jews. I cannot say the same for Serbian "Christian" soldiers. For pete's sake, there are testimonies on file of Serbian soldiers admitting that they were threatened by their superiors with death if they didn't carry out rape orders.

An interesting question I'd like to address to our Muslim readers here: where is the outrage from the Arab/Muslim world over the very real atrocities committed against Muslims in Bosnia? Why is there more seething and raging against Jews who man the checkpoints in Israel than against those Serbians who raped your Muslim sisters in Bosnia?

Hello? Hello? Anybody there . . .?

AmericanJewess, what is the evidence you speak of? Don't give me individual cases because for every raped muslim woman I could come up with at least on raped Serb woman. Where were these so-called rape-camps? How many women were there? There has been an investigation lead by Simone Veil of the EU and it has revealed that the mass rape camps stories were propaganda hoaxes.

Edit: My rant about the audacity of comparing Jewish soldiers to Serbian soldiers should have been directed toward Infidel Pride and Julia Gorin. There is no comparison.

War is hell. There are always two sides to the story. I can even understand mass killing under certain circumstances. But there is never any moral justification for raping women and children. And it happened, a lot.

Hello? Hello? Anybody there . . .?

Hey, Hey hold on cherry. I doubt that you are jewish at all but I don doubt that storyes about raping sounds abominate, and thats exactly what they are intended to do. Like a ferrytales about 250000 dead muslims, than 200000, and now 100000 (actual figure is 68000 muslims and the rest were Serbs and Croats). U may belive in 'testimonies on file of Serbian soldiers admitting that they were threatened by their superiors with death if they didn't carry out rape orders' as much as you like.I dont give a shit to disprove that, not because I cant, but speaking that rape IS islamic institutional way of wageing the war to someone who dont have a single word for raping the Serbian woman and not just in the last war, is wasting the time. I have read a bulk of bosnians on internet posting with open cinism how turks have rape and taking away most beautifull christian woman for more than a half millenia. How they exploit 'ius prima nocte'.And how they (bosnians) are maintain their fair skin, cos converting to islam turks didnt 'inbreed them, as they did to the Serbs so we are now more gipsy like.I can go on and on, but whats the f..k.

But, I Will dare to compare jewish soldiers with serbian not just to defy you. Recently, I have watch a documentary on visast history from some bbc-an author: palestine still in a problem. It shows a video of some jewish soldiers bracking the arm of captured arab. It portrays suicidal bombers as desperate people forced to act by jewish brutality.They even managed to finde a jew, whose little girl was killed in suicide attack, but who openly admits that he understand the paletinian suffer (maybe you can remember those so called 'guardians of the temple'- jews who support recent ahmedenigad conference in teheran on holocaust as a myth). In short, it was documentary realy worth of msm. You can just throw out jews from it and insert serbs, and do the same with palestinians and input bosniaks or albanians and the story was the same.Those who resist islam are bad guys. Those who try to understand muslims (never on behalf of history of last 14 centuryes) are good and wise.

Meantime you and Morgaane can marvel with most fresh news from CNN:
GUANTANAMO BAY U.S. NAVAL BASE, Cuba (Reuters) -- Australian David Hicks, the first prisoner to face a new U.S. war crimes tribunal, unexpectedly pleaded guilty on Monday to a charge of helping al Qaeda fight American troops during the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan.
...
What CNN didn pleaded is that Hicks was KLA fighter and use to be trained in northern albanian kla terrorist camps during 1998.

Witch king- of Angmar

Do your own research. You are no better than a Holocaust denier. The rapes took place, the ICTY has the evidence as does the Office of the HRC. American Jewess is absolutely correct. Point us to that study. Other UN reports have confirmed that ethnic cleansing was commonplace in the region. The Serbs have behaved like deparved animals. And if you support the extent to what they accomplished, you are an animal too.

The killing of innocents is wrong, under any circumstances. The acts of genocide committed by the Serbs (and Muslims)is reprehensible and must be punished no matter what the circumstances were. I wonder where you stand on Srbenica?

Thomas

Yes well following this web site has certainly opened my eyes to the history and problems of the Muslim migration into Kosovo. I had no idea this was the situation until the last year as I have been reading here.

Back to the topic. Hugh Fitzgerald has marvelously pointed out that the Iraq problem goes way way back but policymakers like to think that time started there with the coming of Sadam Hussein to power. The same is with Kosovo and Metohija, western establishment likes to impose an idea that all trouble in Kosovo started in 1990-ties and that all was well before. To anyone with even a superficial knowledge of the Balkans history it is an insult to their intelligence.

Albanian violence against the Serbs in Kosovo go way back to 1690 when after Austria recruited the Serbs to fight alongside them in an unsuccessful war against the Turks right after the breaking of the siege of Vienna. As a result of an Austrian defeat hundrets of thousands of Serbs fled Kosovo northward to escape Turkish retaliation. From then on that land was being settled by Albanians.

Albanians were always used by the ottoman Turks to opress the remaining Serb christian population in Kosovo and Metohija and Albanian pretensions on Kosovo were born with the First League of Prizren in 1878. Albanians were responsible for many attrocities against the Serbs until Turkey was driven out of the Balkans in the First Balkan war. Albanians also sided with Axis powers in WWII and Mussolini proclaimed the Italian dominion "Greater Albania". During that time hundreds of thousands of Serbs were driven away from their homes and many were murdered. After the war communist governememnt banned those people from returning and in the post war era a quiet anti Serb campaign was lead by the local party bosses which at times turned violent, especially in 1981 a year after Tito's death. You can read what was happening then here:

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

Kosovo Albanians, while pompously calling themselves "the people of Kosovo", after cleansing and killing most of the Serbs and other non-Albanians are trying to achieve independence. The fact is there has never ever been a state called Kosovo and there never has been a Kosovar people. These are all modern day concotions invented to obfuscate the real issue, to hide real ethnic cleansing and real genocidal behaviour by Albanians towards the Serbs and promote fabricated ones. Kosovo and Metohija were always either a part of Serbia or were occupied by a foreign power(usually at the same time Serbia itself was occupied). There are no legal, moral or historical justifications for the existence of an independent Kosovo and Metohija, just the argument of brute force.

I as a Serb will never ever accept any independent state of Kosovo, especially not on the graves of our ancestors and rubbles of our churches, and will strive to make conditions that, should such a thing come to be, Serbia, when the right time comes annuls it, one way or the other.

BTW: I forgot to tell you about :
'An interesting question I'd like to address to our Muslim readers here: where is the outrage from the Arab/Muslim world over the very real atrocities committed against Muslims in Bosnia? Why is there more seething and raging against Jews who man the checkpoints in Israel than against those Serbians who raped your Muslim sisters in Bosnia?'

If I am a muslim, I would just start to think that you are trying to distract muslim attention from you simply putting a finger on someone else. Muslim are not so stupid to belive that Serbs are their worst enemy.Nor will serbian ultimate dissapirance make them less angry on you and the west. To put it more simply, untill islam exist you can bet there will be wars on planet Earth.And rape camps.Malignin the serbs will not make you look as good girl in muslim eyes. Only a good traitor. After all, we were not by name or default listed as apes and pigs in 'holly' quran.
You are.

Witch-king, perhaps it is difficult to find evidence of the kind they were looking for. But you can't base a judgment about lack of evidence on "paper reports" from the Bosnian government, which is apparently what Simone Veil and team did. Rape is a deep shame in Muslim culture and obviously would be underreported by rape victims. They may be willing to tell their story anonymously to a reporter or medical worker, but they aren't going to file official reports for the permanent record of something they wish to keep secret from their husbands and families. There were non-Muslim physicians who have testified to the gynecological damage of large numbers of women seeking treatment. There IS evidence, if only someone wishes to find it. In this case, the victims aren't going to be much help because most of them refuse to identify themselves. I do not for a minute believe that the war crime of rape was evenly distributed among women of all three sides.

More to the point, I don't blame anyone for being wary of Muslims in their midst; Islam is a threat to the world and I can certainly understand Serbia's impulse to separate from its followers. But how stupid of the Serbians to pick the most inocuous of Muslim populations and then do this. Were the Bosnian Muslim civilians blowing up pizza parlors and buses and calling for the destruction of Serbia?? I didn't think so. That is why I can't see the sense in a comparison between Serbia's treatment of Muslims in their midst and our treatment of our Muslims. Yes, the world is rabidly anti-semitic and why it champions the murderous Muslims of the Middle East is beyond me, but I can't see how linking arms with Serbia is going to enhance my credibility as an anti-jihadist.

Witch King

You are using history to justify rape and genocide. Way to go pal. We can fight jihad; without raping and killing innocents. You are defending the indefensible. The Serbs, who may have been initially legitimately defending themseleves, extended themeslves into the black. They were wrong for what they did. Full stop.

I agree with Angmar, there is no evidence of rape camps.

Now I don't have a problem with people saying that Serbs do not have clean hands, I do however have a problem when thats all they say. To say that Kosovar Albanians are victims is poor research at the very least

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

the link is to a series of articles it shows what the Albanian element was like before the break up of Yugoslavia, my personal favorite was the article citing how they burned down a Nunnery(http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm86-5.html). Those Nuns must have really been "Evil Serbs" to warrant their home being burned down, down right criminal all their praying and doing good works.

Another good one http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm87-7.html

where Non-Albanian women are treated so well that they have to protest.

The Serbs may not have clean hands but they are the ones paying for admitting to it, every other nationality in the region firmly denies their own dirty deeds and get rewarded for their denial. I suggest some of you consider the reality that you've been fed propaganda and to re-evaluate who the people of the balkans are. It takes alot of guts to admit to making a mistake but a coward surely knows how to keep his lips tight when his bacon is getting close to the fire.

Thomas, the Kangaroo court in the Hague has only stories of individual rapes, it has nothing on the so-called mass rape camps. They did not exist, period.

Where do I stand on Srebrenica? War crimes were comitted there, but not genocide as the Kangaroo court would like people to think. War crimes, that were a response to this:

http://real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com/

Brought to you from the demilitarized zone of Srebrenica by Naser Oric and his troops. Two wrongs do not make a right, I am just trying to put things in an appropriate context.

Angmar beat me to the links, I didn't notice still its a good series of links.

Svemirko, I am not sure I understand everything you are saying because of your English but will try to address some things I think you said. (By the way, that is not a put-down -- I admire you for being able to speak English at all; I certainly cannot speak your language.) For starters, I am definitely a Jewish woman, married to a Jewish man, living in the state of Israel, Jerusalem, to be exact. I am not fond of Muslims, and I believe that Islam is the greatest danger to the world today. I love Rav Kahane. Do you know who that is? If you do, then you will understand my position.

I have no desire to look like a "good Jewish girl" to the Muslims. There are many Jews who pander to the Muslims; I am not one of them. I do, however, believe in standing for TRUTH and JUSTICE. I believe that Islam's chief victims are its own followers, so I have a measure of sympathy for Muslims who are good in their heart and soul and who are caught up in this spiral of insanity along with the rest of us. As a woman, albeit a Jew and an Israeli, I have a problem with turning a stone cold heart to a Muslim woman or girl-child who has been plucked from her home and brutally gang-raped, her entire life destroyed. I feel the same sympathy for ALL women, Croatian or Serbian, as well. My point in focusing on the Muslim women is that they were more widely victimized, and it is ABOMINABLE to me that anyone would now call them all liars and claim that their rapes never happened.

You know, it is possible to defend Serbia's desire to remove Islam from its realm without lying about crimes committed against the enemy.

Haidon, if I am no better then holocaust deniers, neither are the judges of the ICJ in the Hague(not to be confounded with the Kangaroo ICTY) who ruled that any crimes commited in Bosnia do not characterize genocide.

" that what Ihtisaari means by "irreversible" -- that once the Muslims push out the resident Serbs, then the only thing to do is to make the place entirely part of Dar al-Islam, for nowhere, apparently, are Muslims to have to endure what many non-Muslims have had to endure for 1350 years, which is to say, life as a minority? "

.........Should Kosovo become an Independent Muslim state, I would venture to say, it would become an European "Gaza", home to crazed people firing rockets and Islamic clerics sending out terrorists and suicide bombers...

what then happens?............

AmericanJewess, I'm sorry but you are climbing up the mirrors now, as the Italians would say.

You claim it was not possible to talk to victims because they were not willing to do so. Then how, I ask, did people ever come to a conclusion that there were rape camps? Where were those camps located? How come there wasn't a flood of child births among muslim women in Bosnia from these rapes? Those exams you claim prove nothing, they are all individual cases that sadly happen in every war since the dawn of time. As for you not believing that rape was equally distributed, you are entitled to believe whatever you like, but you are not entitled to your own facts. And it is a fact that rapes in Bosnia were equally distributed, but Serb women raped were not a story for western press.

As for Bosnian muslims being inocuous as you say, the Serbs slaughtered by the ustashas in Bosnia, out of whom many were muslims from Bosnia, in WWII would certainly beg to differ, as would those who had to live under Ottoman Turkish rule. That is at least just as bad as blowing themselves up in a bus, don't you think.

American Jewess
C'mon, are you telling me no Jewish man ever raped anyone?? Since Mohammed married Aesha when she was 6yrs and had sex with this little girl at 9yrs-what do you call that!!All around the planet Muslim men marry & are allowed to have intercourse with their 'wives' at 12yrs old,younger in some cases since it in legal in Iran to marry them[litle girls] of nine years old and have sex with them...
As for the 'rape camps'yes I've heard of them & wouldn't deny some women suffered rape by Serbian
Soldiers.However since U.N offered money to those
claiming to have been raped this sets a doubtful
precedent.Believe this scheme was dropped when one of Bosnian Muslim girls gave birth to a BLACK BABY-which can't be blamed on Serbian Soldiers.Also claim of 30,000 Rapes does sound extreme when Bosnian Serb Army could hardly field
that number let alone spend all their time in raping.
Madame Simone Veil is a woman of absolute integrity-she was herself raped & had her back broken by torture yet never revealed the names of her associates to the Gestapo.So I resent you
casting aspersions upon her.
A certain understanding of mores of Muslim women makes me think you aren't a Jewess at all but Muslim yourself.

Witch-king, you aren't a careful reader, are you? I said that Muslim women told of their rapes as long as they could remain anonymous, but to file an official report with a government office would require them to forfeit their anonymity, which they were reluctant to do. Consequently, when Simone Veil searched out the paper reports on rape, they were rather unimpressive. It is not hard to understand. As for location of the rape camps -- any facility used for prisoner detention could suffice, and these facilities have been pointed out all over the place. It is no big secret where they are. What, did you think the Serbs would erect a sign over the gate saying "This Way to Rape Camp" ??

Yes, Morgane, Mohommed was a pedophile. I'm sure somewhere a Jewish man has raped a Muslim woman. My point is that it is not a military strategy employed by our side.

I guess I can't prove I'm a Jew, but you have already proven that you're an idiot. No further discussions, please.

AmericanJewess, you are using assumptions and wild allegations as facts now when you say any prison facility would suffice. As for muslim women being reluctant to speak, Serb women aren't exactly bragging about being used as sex toys by the Bosnian muslim army. No woman is particularly willing to admit she was raped! It isn't a trait for muslim women only.

All you have posted here were propaganda allegations used to demonize the Serb people during the wars in ex-Yugoslavia, anonymous testimonies conveniantly withdrawn when they were supposed go public, assumptions unsupported by a single piece of concrete evidence. I am sorry you believe this garbage, but I don't hold it against you. Dropping old debunked beliefs that seemed rock-solid is notoriously difficult.

Witch-king, I understand that there is bad history between the Serbs and the Turks. I don't even blame anyone for holding a grudge. I'm not a peacenik, after all. But 50 years after WWII, weren't the Muslims and Serbs living side by side in peace, and even intermarrying? At what point can both sides decide to move on?

We have a fair number of German tourists coming into Jerusalem. They often stop me to ask for directions or advice. Shall I whip out my knife and stab them, because their grandparents killed my relatives?

I wasn't trying to deny that Serbs have reason to be wary of the Muslims, only that at the time the war broke out, weren't the two populations living in harmony together? Who stoked the fire?

Witch-king, are Serbian rape victims at risk for being ostracized by their families? Are they at risk for being thrown out of their homes? Divorced by their husbands? Don't you know how Muslim culture treats rape victims? This goes back to my comment about believing that Muslims are the chief victims of Islam. Not ALL Muslim families behaved this way, but apparently a large number did.

Well, at least you are denying the atrocities. I guess that's one step above glorifying them.

Here are some nice straight home truths for the UN. Just look at the UN's response at the end of the article!

http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/?p=1481

"Rape is a deep shame in Muslim culture "

...you would never know it by the way they treat their women and how they treat non Muslim women around the world...

Exsgtbrown, right. It is appalling. I guess it's only shameful to be the victim, but glorious to be the perpetrator!

AmericanJewess, the 50 years of harmony you speak of were a communist dictatorship which did not allow speaking of the WWII attrocities outside the official party line. And the communist party, while not denying the ustasha crimes, forbade the mentioning of nationality of the victims and the perpetrators as well as their motives. To give you a better picture, the same thing happened with Babyi Yar. The USSR did acknowledge the nazi crime there and even put a memorial but would not mention the victims' nationality or the nazis motive.

As soon as communism fell, all the constitutional nations in Bosnia voted for their national parties respectively, the ex-communists, being the only officially multi-ethnic party, were all but wiped out. So things weren't as rosy as they appeared, were they? The Serb national party was formed last, after two other parties were holding rallies together announcing their alliance. That alliance was seen by Serbs in the early 1940-ties and their effects were all too well known. This was the atmosphere in the early 1990-ties in Bosnia not the virtual reality of a multiclutural paradise destroyed by evil Serbs western press had created. Therefore, your analogy about Germans of today and yesteryear are not correct. The Germans of today do not have swastika on their flag, like muslims of Bosnia had the crescent moon in 1992, nor do they try to whitewash Hitler like Bosnian muslims are now whitewashing the Ottoman empire and presenting it as a model. But Serbs from Bosnia were not allowed to separate from such people, something even you acknowledge they had a good reason to and were entitled to, they were told borders of communist Bosnia are sacred, history is rubbish. You have to stay and live in multimational Bosnia, who has trampeled over Serb people's collective rights that were guaranteed by the constitution of Bosnia and Hercegovina when Croat-muslim alliance in Bosnia called illegaly for a referendum on independence(such a decision had to be accepted by Serb representatives which left the parliament session).

It is difficult to point to a single event that sparked the whole thing. I guess the situation simply went out of control.

"Witch-king, are Serbian rape victims at risk for being ostracized by their families? Are they at risk for being thrown out of their homes? Divorced by their husbands? Don't you know how Muslim culture treats rape victims? "

I know of no such case, and if there were the western media would have pounced on it, trust me. But you have raised an interesting point here...

Western press claim that muslims from Bosnia are pro-western, enlightened, secular and modern. How come all of a sudden it's the muslim culture, that supposedly plays no role in Bosnian muslim life, that prevents them from coming forward and reporting rapes? Same question with the non-muslim doctors that examined muslim women and foun evidence of rape. How come those same muslims would allow an infidel doctor to treat them? That alone would be grounds for their families to disown them! If you believe that the number of muslim women raped in Bosnia is so great how come there are not tens of thousands of muslim women from Bosnia roaming around the world without anyone willing to take them? Don't you see how your arguments contradict each other?

OK lets change the subject matter just a trifle.

Are there more rapes of Swedish women by Muslims in Sweden then of Muslim women by Swedish men? Keep the relative ratios of populations of Swedes and Muslims in mind before working out a figure.

Fjordman is one of the few who has shone a light on what is happening in Sweden even though it is not yet a Muslim majority country. If Muslims rape Swedish women more then the other way round, then I would put more credence that rapes and kidnap of Serbian women by Muslims, throughout the long occupation by Muslims, is far greater then rapes by Serbs of Muslim women.

For Muslims, rape is a weapon not just of Jihad but humiliation and conquest of the Infidel.

What has happened to Serbia over the last 500 years is the real tragedy. This has been a continuous tragedy and not just a one off occurrence some 500 years ago. When such is the case, Serbs cannot just forget.

A similar situation holds in Kashmir, where Hindus have been driven away from their native land by invader Muslims.

Everyone wants Christians to apologise for their sins in history. And they have, for the Crusades, though this was never justified, for slavery, for colonialism etc. But have Muslims ever apologised for their conquests and their ongoing colonialism? Have Muslims ever apologised for their far greater role in slavery, and that they still practice it? If not, why not?

When Muslims attack, one of their primary objectives is to rape all women found,make them slaves, or just kill them if they refuse...Muslim history bears this out...

@ AmericanJewess

Arghhh, I am so hapy that at least I can satisfy you by my english language baby. Finaly you cought me. Now, for the rest of your bs: You dont need to be worry about Julia Gorin cos she is realy 'tiny minority' among your national who see better whats happen in the balkans than I can type english or you post your comments.I wonder only for what kind of TRUTH & JUSTICE you claim that you are standing for?The truth, as you have said, that muslims are the greates victims of islam? SO F..IN WHAT? Even if they are, why should I suffer because of that?Why my family? Why the rest of decent people who only want to live in real peace?Why should ANYBODY on this planet EVER suffer for a one moment cos of islamic genetic tantrum? If they belive thats ok to kill people for a sake of arabic pedophile and his manual, thats ok for me as long as that people are muslims themselves and not the rest of the world poised for infidelity. Or its the truth that we live in peace for 50 years under communist Tito (who happens to be a strongest supporter for palestine cause).No we didnt, honey. We hated eachother, as we do hate today. And as we have than leftist hammer above our heads to impose peace, so we have today, only this time american. After all our sufferings from muslims for last half millenia, we leave them alone after ww2. We only want from them never to hear again words like sharia law, dhimmi, raya (cattle, as they called Serbs,and I can bet you would agree)...And what was their responce. In bosnia-islamic declaration by Alia Izetbegovic. On Kosovo and Metohy massive purge of christians (oh, yea, you can belive in Morgaane Sinclair bullshit story about croats on Kosovo who pleded nato to bomb the Serbs;Only, where are that Croats now?Or maybe you should ask some croats what they realy think about muslims?Or maybe you just try to remmember who was destroy famous 500 years old bridge in Mostar.Ask Morgaane for that.Little help-It wasnt Serbs.)
No honey, your TRUTH are actualy semitruth, and thus worst than any lie.Since when or where you have hear that any muslim in bosnia or kosovo & metohy ever fought for rights for killed, tortured, raped Serbs? Actually where have you ever hear for any muslims complaining for any other muslims misbehavior of nonmuslims. EVER? ANYWHERE? Ask Morgaane. Maybe she can find and Iam sure it will be some bosnian or albanian. But in reality, she can only lie again, as she did lie with a story of albanians being compassionate for 8 years under miloshevic (btw, ask her for massacre in Paracin barracs in 1987-Albanian killed several nonalbanians.This event, as well masive exodus of Serbs after 1981 led to miloshevic inaguration.)Belive it or not, it was not miloshevic who produce albanian terror. Its albanian terror which produced miloshevic.

Arrrgh, now exuse me again. I must go to metamorphose myself into my natural serbian subhuman state.Just not to disappoint you for a next time.

Serbia tried to genocide the Kosovar Albanians -- who tried peaceful resistance for EIGHT YEARS before really pushing back.

Is this the same peaceful resistance which the Albanians are doing in Macedonia???

The same peaceful resistance the Albanians are doing in "disputed" areas of Serbia proper bordering Kosovo????

LOOK EVERYBODY!

YOU HAVE TWO CHOICES:

(1) Allow Serbia to keep Kosovo. Although that might make some of those on this board with weak stomachs angry because of the semi-genocide. I say semi because I don't trust the arab $ media reporting on this. If I accepted everything the media said about Israel then we would all have to say the Jews are committing mass murder. They are not of course.

(2) Allow Kosovo to fall into the hands of muslims and become a muslim state. Let me ask everyone here to name me a majority muslim state that you trust right now? Turkey maybe on a really good day.

I choose 1 not because I have any great love affair with the Serbs BUT it is better then letting Kosovo fall into the hands of Jihadist. Where do you think the money is coming from for this independence movement? It is coming from places like the UAE and Saudia Arabia. What do you think comes attached to the cash?

Think with head people and not with your heart. You have to be cold if you want to win this war. Letting the muslims take more land in europe is just stupid.

Witch-king, thanks for the history lesson on the former Yugoslavia. I didn't know all that, so it's helpful to get some more context. As for why there aren't more Muslim women roaming around alone - I don't know what the numbers are, how many lied to their families so they could stay home, how many committed suicide, how many immigrated and are trying to forget. I'm willing to believe that there are still a good number out there who have managed to become absorbed somehow and don't wish to speak about their experiences.

You raise a good point about Bosnian Muslims being held up to the world as examples of modernity, yet when this rape crisis occurred, suddenly it was revealed that their culture retains barbaric, cruel, medieval practices and ways of thinking about women. I have to admit that when I first heard about the way the Muslim men treated the rape victims upon their return home, my immediate thought was "here is a culture that needs to die." I still feel sorry for the women, if that makes sense.

Svemirko, I don't love the Muslims any more than you do, okay? Just, please, don't rape any women during wartime. It isn't right. Muslim rapists disgust me too. They should all DIE. I'm sorry for what you have suffered at the hands of Muslims.

Greatcometof1577, "Think with head people and not with your heart. You have to be cold if you want to win this war. Letting the muslims take more land in europe is just stupid." Probably true, though it's hard to be brutal toward innocent civilians. I agree that the last thing the world should give the Muslims is ANOTHER COUNTRY of their own.

@ AmericanJewess
I agree on that 100%. Look, you have wonderfull story about raping, killing etc. misbehaviour at Julia Gorin site at her blog:'More Bosnian Lies from Utah'.Read that story. Specialy second part of it.Most vivid exemple of muhammad legacy: 'war is deception'.

You are welcome, AmericanJewess. I do not deny that rapes against women were comitted by all sides during the war in Bosnia, but I firmly deny that rape was part of Serb military strategy or that any rape camp ever existed on Serb teritory. International forces have been there for over a decade and they found no evidence to support that claim. If you'd like to know how this story originated and how it died, check this out:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/library/facts/rapes-fiction.html

I too hope that victims of rape have managed to build a normal life.

AmericanJewess

Lets not forget lots of innocent civilians died when we used atomic weapons against Japan and fire bombed Tokyo. The British and U.S. bombed German cities to rubble. Many innocent women and childern died in that also.

My point is not to say what is right or wrong with a specific tactic but if the overall goal is right and good. The ends justify the means. I feel the Serbs over did it and perhaps went too far BUT its hard when you are dealing with a hostile population and must muslim populations are hostile. Look at Israel right now. Let me ask you how long can Israel keep this up with Hamas etc before losing it. Hell they are building a wall! Many in weeping gallery are screaming about that being a war crime. My point is muslims over state everything. If 10 jihadist are killed and one child gets killed the media will claim 50 women and childern are killed.

I just wish people would put themselves in the place the Serbs are right now. They are about lose their "Jerusalem" to their enemy. This enemy claims that they will soon re-enslave the serbian people. That the serbs are an inferior people who must be good dhimmis. Now if you are in their shoes what would you do?

I am not a fan of some of the Serbian actions but I am not going to get in their way to defend their land form a muslim invader trying to kill and enslave their people.

Awake ...

Thank you. I find it disconcerting that anyone not agreeing with the opinion of certain fairly vociferous posters is immediately branded "a jihadist" ... "Al Qaeda agent" ... "dirty Islamist" ... and "nazipropagandist".

JW website management had to remove four posts from this thread from Infidel Pride and others, whose constant conflation of my personal opinion with support of jihad is recognized as what it is: (1) untrue and (2) libel.

I will be the happiest person in this world were the Serbs to quiet their own ambitions to rule everyone around them and JOIN the Albanians and Bosnians who are wresting control out of the hands of Wahhabis and expelling them from their countries.

Meanwhile, it is my firm opinion that all war crimes on ALL sides must be dealt with equitably. Of course all sides see their own as innocent and the "other" as guilty, which is why the trials at The Hague, far from the madding crowds, are a good thing.

We will know things are on the up and up with the Serbs with the interfaith commissions for Bosnia, Kosovo and Croatia find the Serbs joining hand in hand with their attempt to rid the Balkans of jihadists, rather than the Serbs churning out propaganda trying to convince the world that it needs them to "police" the Albanians and Bosnians, propaganda based on a lie that they are principally jihadists.

The assertion proffered by one on this board that the ethnic cleansing should start with the Albanians and end up in Constantinople is evidence indeed of the kind of thinking that jihadists have and that is a danger to us all: that based on past wars and conquests, the rages and genocides of our day -- aimed at establishing new "holy" empires or Caliphates -- have validity. They do not.

The African tribespeople of the Kalahari put it best: when the elephants fight it is the ground that suffers.

My big problem with the Serbs to date -- other than their behavior during the wars which they themselves started -- is that they are trying to manipulate the American public into believing they are fighting a proxy battle against jihad for us in the Balkans. They are not. They are after land and power, as per usual.

Are there some jihadists in the Balkans? Yes, and they are being dealt with very harshly there by the Muslims themselves -- and that is the best way to do it.

On Jews and Serbia.

The Israeli government sent the Mossad in to Serbia in the early 1990s to protect Jews there from Serb aggression.

The current state of rabid anti-Semitism in Serbia is best observed in two places:

(1) The Serbian Defense League website at http://www.compuserb.com/sdl/

Nifty quotes: "Jews first committed genocide on Serbs, and then killed President Milosevic."

WE SALUTE THE LAST OF SERB HEROES!
Gen. Ratko Mladic, left, and Dr. Radovan Karadzic, right, led Bosnian Serbs in their fight for survival; we thank the great men for their sacrifices with a hope that our pages will strike a spark of inspiration for future generations. [For those of you who don't know, Mladic and Karadzic carried out the massacre at Srebrenic.]

Further on the SDL at http://sdlusa.com/ lists Jews to be hated and lists no fewer than 30 attacks on the ADL.

The Serbian Defense League routinely quotes The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as if they were gospel.

(2) The Helsinki Report on Human Rights in Serbia

Summary quoted below:

HE NEW SERBIAN RIGHT AND ANTI-SEMITISM
- A SUMMARY REPORT -

12/20/2005

The round table titled “The New Serbian Rights and Anti-Semitism” was organized on November 2, 2005, in the Belgrade Media Center. This first in the series of activities under the project “Overcoming Anti-Semitism and Nationalistic Prejudice” – implemented with the assistance of the Council of Europe – provided the guidelines for further discussion of racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism and other forms of intolerance and hate speech in today’s Serbia.

Five keynote speakers addressed the panel assembling around forty participants. Sonja Biserko, chairperson of the Helsinki Committee, Aleksandar Lebl, journalist and president of the Commission for Monitoring Anti-Semitism (Federation of Jewish Communities in Serbia-Montenegro), writer Mirko Djordjevic, journalist Teofil Pancic and writer Filip David tackled the topics such as “Contemporary Anti-Semitism in Serbia and Worldwide,” “The New Serbian Right,” “Pop Culture and the Issue of Diversity” and “Discrepancy Between Declaration and Practice: Serbian Authorities' Attitude Towards Anti-Semitism and Other Forms of National and Religious Intolerance.”

The round table concluded that anti-Semitism in Serbia should not be perceived as an isolated phenomenon but ascribed to the overall radicalization of Serbian politics and society. In this context, anti-Semitism and its manifestations perfectly fit in the predominant exclusionist politics and conservative thought that negate any dissimilarity be it ethnic, religious or other.
The persistence of anti-Semitism is thus even more dangerous as it goes for the small Jewish community of no great weight in Serbia’s finances or politics. Major promoters of such anti-Jewish climate are to be traced down in a number of formal groups ranging from those that follow in the footsteps of a part of the Serbian Orthodox Church’s tradition leaning on the teachings of recently sanctified Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic and his overt anti-Semitism, through those in the limelight of pop culture to today’s authorities unwilling to come to grips with growing intolerance.

Here are some excerpts from keynote addresses.

Sonja Biserko: ”Raising the questions of anti-Semitism, xenophobia, and all forms of intolerance and discrimination goes in parallel with current international trends…A number of international summits/conferences discuss and define the frameworks for combating these phenomena. Their final documents detail such negative trends, including hate speech and hate crimes, and label them threats to democracy (tolerance) and the respect for human rights…If Serbia has an eye on getting integrated into European and global institutions, she must do by far more than merely adopting international political and legal guidelines. Serbia has to face up all her traditions, past experiences and today’s problems, if she want to be recognized as a democratic and tolerant society open to diversity…Thus, the main objective of this project is to sensitize both the civil sector, the media and NGO coalitions to shower public opinion with factual information about these unacceptable trends, and the authorities to pursue proactive politics in combating racism, xenophobia and anti-Semitism.”

Aleksandar Lebl: “…Recent years were marked by the revival of anti-Semitism worldwide – in developed Western democracies, societies in transition and underdeveloped countries, not to mention the Islamic world. Once again, anti-Semitism is “in” in intellectual circles in many countries. It is spread by the media, books, public lectures, the Internet. Sometimes it is expressed in roundabout ways, sometimes openly, but is, as a rule, camouflaged as anti-Zionism and anti-Israelitic stances…Claims that Jewish conspiracies are aimed at dominating the word have practically never been crossed out…The world has become aware of this threatening revival…Many countries’ legislations provide that anti-Semitism and glorification of Nazi leaders and symbols are criminal offences…We are witnesses to the growing anti-Semitism in Serbia.”

Mirko Djordjevic: “…The phrase “the new Serbian right” is not in itself too complicated to be understandable. However, its origin remains unclear. In its current form, it has been present throughout the past fifteen years, ever since some ideological groups have stepped on the public scene. These groups have occupied the void left after the fall of Russian communism…We are talking here of young people who have been joining various organizations – Obraz and St. Justin the Philosopher, and, as of recently, Dveri – all of which belong to the extreme right. In the wider context, this is about a trend that relies on the most conservative thought…The program of Serbian “rationalists” sources from the detailed document articulated in April 2004 that provides – though in a somewhat simplified manner – what attitudes should mark the new Serbian right. The later postulates that “both leftist and rightist politics are evil” because they divide an inseparable “organism.” Their usage of the term “race” remains unclear, since, according to their discourse, it primarily refers to the ethnos-nation concept…In geopolitical terms, they perceive the state as the outcome of the unification of all ‘Serbian lands,’ including Montenegro and Republika Srpska in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In such a “racial Serbian state,” there is no place for Jews, Roma, Albanians and Balias /Turks, i.e. Muslims/…”

Filip David: ”Speaking about anti-Semitism we can see some specifics. Jews in Serbia are not a national minority – the fact that in itself specifically mirrors anti-Semitism…Specifics of anti-Semitism is its continuous presence in publishing. There is even, so to speak, a distinct genre, the genre of the anti-Semitic literature. It encompasses publications that openly assault Jews on racial basis, and the “literature” focused on various conspiracies, histories of secret societies, and world rulers in the shadow…The main sources of anti-Semitism can be found in a plethora of anti-Semitic literature, actions taken by certain, though major dignitaries of the Serbian Orthodox Church, and in statements of politicians and outstanding figures blaming ‘the world conspiracy against Serbia’ for all…What worries the most is the absence of reactions to anti-Semitic incidents. The public opinion on these matters is non-existent…”

There is a more comprehensive report from November 2006, but it's too lengthy for this format.

For further information see: http://www.helsinki.org.yu/

Please note from these reports the problems with Serb prisons.

The bottom line is that Serbian nationalism is growing and along with it the anti-Semitism that worried the Israelis early on. Almost all of the traditional Sephardic population of the Balkans, there since they were saved by the Ottomans during the Spanish expulsion of Jews in 1492, has fled to Israel. During the wars of the 1990s, most Jews fled to Muslim areas in fear of the Serbs.

And it was the Albanians, not the Serbs, who managed not to lose even one Jew to the Nazis during WWII.

"For me the issue is, Russia needs to clean house (rampant drug and alcohol abuse, too many abortions, an exploding AIDs rate, the spread of Islam, the depopulation of Siberia, huge increases in immigration) before it should look abroad. And it is my biggest hope that Russia will put a stop to all these problems today."

posted by npabga above.

I agree, npabga, you'll get no arguments from me on this. Seventy years of socialist economics, state-imposed atheism, and Boslhevik terror, have left the great Russian culture in shambles. It will take at least another generation before they can get their act totally together. However, I believe Russia has a Divinely ordained mission to defend Orthodox Christian civilization. When she embarks on that mission, all the other problems will be rectified.

AmericanJewess,

Be careful of the Saudi financed propaganda about the Balkans. It is in the same category of all the news reports about Israeli autrocities against the "poor, innocent" Muslims of Gaza. If you watch Arab TV, you'd believe that Israeli soldiers are constantly gang-raping Muslim girls when any Israeli can tell you that the majority of rapes in Israel are by Muslims who kidnap and rape Christian or Jewish girls.

In war, there are always atrocities. War itself is an atrocity. However, the facts in Kosovo are quite different than what Christiane Amanpour and CNN would have you believe. The reports of Serbian "rape camps" have now been totally discredited by the UN itself.

Then there was that famous report in the New York Times showing all these naked bodies in a ditch. The report said they were Muslims massacred by Serbs. However, when you looked closely at the photo, the male bodies were ALL uncircumcized. They were actually Krajina Serbs who had been massacred by Bosnian Muslims and their Croat allies. The media took this and tried to pull a fast one by saying they were Kosovo Muslims. Obviously they weren't.

Remember all the reports about Israeli autrocities in Lebanon last year that CNN carried? That they were fabrications didn't get in the way of a sensational news story. There is no denying that some Serbs committed crimes under the cover of war, but for the Muslims it was a matter of policy. Israel has committed crimes too (the destruction of the Christian villiage of Kifr Bir comes to mind) but these are not part of the nature of the Jewish state any more than they were part of the nature of the Christian Serbian state.

"And it was the Albanians, not the Serbs, who managed not to lose even one Jew to the Nazis during WWII."

posted by Morgaan Sinclair above.

This statement is beyond absurd. The Albanian Muslims were fanatical pro-Nazis rivaled only by the Croats in their participation in genocide. It is because of the Nazi extermination and deportation of Serbs that Kosovo became majority Albania. The Nazis even organized a special elite unit consisting completely of Albanian Muslims and sponsered by the Mufti of Jerusalem.

This elite unit, the 21st SS Division Skanderbeg was a Waffen SS Mountain division set up by Heinrich Himmler in March 1944, officially under the title of the 21st Waffen-Gebirgs Division der SS Skanderbeg (albanische Nr. 1) recieved more commendations from Hitler than any other.

"During World War II and the Holocaust, Kosovar Albanians killed 10,000 Kosovo Serbs and expelled 100,000. Kosovo-Metohija was made a part of a Greater Albania by Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. Hitler and Mussolini realized the Greater Albania ideology established by the 1878 League of Prizren. Albanian-settled areas of the Balkans - Kosovo-Metohija, western Macedonia, southern Montenegro - were incorporated in a Greater Albania. The Greater Albania Kosovar Albanian nationalist movement murdered Kosovo Serb civilians and took over their lands and houses. Kosovo Serb women were raped. Kosovo Serb Orthodox priests were arrested, tortured, and murdered. Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries were attacked and destroyed. Serbian monuments, cemeteries, and gravestones were desecrated and demolished. The Greater Albania nationalist movement formed the Balli Kombetar, the Albanian Kosovo Committee, and the Skanderbeg Nazi SS Division, two-thirds of whose members were Kosovar Albanian Muslims. Kosovar Albanian Muslims played a major role in the Holocaust, the murder of European Jews. Kosovar Albanian Nazi SS troops participated in the roundup of Kosovo Jews who were later killed at Bergen-Belsen. What occurred in Kosovo during World War II was genocide. The mainstream accounts of World War II have censored and covered up the Kosovar Albanian role in the genocide against Kosovo Serbs and the role of Kosovar Albanians in the Holocaust. The Nazi past of Kosovo remains an untold story"

from:
http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/054.shtml

see also:

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Kosovo/atrocities/Klecka-reaction-3.html

Greatcometof1577, I know that one of our Israeli leaders (not a history buff so can't remember which one) said that the only way to beat the Muslims was to totally break them and show them that, beyond any doubt, they cannot win. When I see how little bands of ragged Palestinians continue to wage war against Israel with rocks and homemade bombs of various types, I realize the truth of that statement. They lost the war with Israel, but they will not accept defeat, and continue to cobble together their "fighters" and try to wear us down with whatever they've got, be it suicide bombers or PR tactics or Useful Idiots culled from America's university youth. Believe me, there are times when I think "let's just be done with it, and finish them once and for all." A lot of lives would be saved on both sides if we had only nipped them in the bud. It sounds to me like this is the point you are making about Serbia and its reaction toward the Muslims in its midst -- that it needed to get barbaric because of the enemy it was fighting. (Correct me if I've missed the point.)

I still have a problem with tactics of torture (unless it is to get information) and rape and humiliation. What's the point of that? Just kill them all, and if you must use weapons that ultimately kill women and children, well, that's a tragedy but as you said, we have to win to save ourselves. THAT I can understand. If you come to make war with me, then I will kill you if I can. I will kill you before you can kill me. That's self defense. But I don't need to delight myself with an assortment of little horrors (insert examples of wartime atrocities) before I kill you.

There is a well known story about Jewish soldiers in the War of Independence who were traveling through dangerous territory to reach comrades who needed their reinforcement. On the way, the ran into an Arab farmer. They didn't know what to do with him. Should they take him with them? No, he was too old to make the journey. Should they kill him outright? No, he has done nothing wrong yet; that would be murder. Should they tie him to a tree? No, a wild animal might find him and kill him, or he might starve to death, and perhaps he is innocent, so that, too, would be murder. So they let him go and hoped they would reach their destination before he could tell on them. He promptly notified Arab fighters, the Jewish soldiers were ambushed and they along with the men they were trying to save were also killed. There's an example of where too much mercy can lose you your life, or lose the battle, or the war. Now, see, I would have just killed the guy. No sense taking chances. But what I wouldn't do is torture him for a few hours just to get my jollies. I just don't understand that sort of thing. I know Muslims, by and large, tend toward the barbaric, but it sounds like the Serbs were pretty atrocious too. Then again, we have US troops misbehaving in Iraq. Isolated, individual acts of barbarity are, I suppose, to be expected of any nation in any war; it's the state supported barbarity I object to.

Provoslavni, thanks for your point of view and also your historical information, which is very interesting. I really just don't know who to believe. That Serbians are not especially Jew-friendly is bothersome to me as well.

Anyway, let's raise a glass to defeating Islam. "L'Chaim!"

Morgaan Sinclair

You state:"I will be the happiest person in this world were the Serbs to quiet their own ambitions to rule everyone around them and JOIN the Albanians and Bosnians who are wresting control out of the hands of Wahhabis and expelling them from their countries."

Nonsense! You have really eaten that hook. I guess all these interfaith meetings we are having in the USA are wonderful also. I mean Ibrahim Hooper said he wants a peaceful transition. Maybe if the Mexicans in southern California want to break away and form their own republic you would agree with that also. You do realize that Islamic Jihad is a concept found within Islam not just in Wahhabist form. As Robert has pointed out the mainstream Islamic thought is supportive of Islamic jihad. The only reason they want the Wahhabies out is becuase they want to run their own jihad.

Hear is the case presented by Srdja Trifkovic of why it is dangerous..

http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/cgi-bin/newsviews.cgi/The%20Balkans/Kosovo/Kosovo_and_the_Glob.html?seemore=y

"Meanwhile, it is my firm opinion that all war crimes on ALL sides must be dealt with equitably. Of course all sides see their own as innocent and the "other" as guilty, which is why the trials at The Hague, far from the madding crowds, are a good thing."

Stupid. Then according to you Kissinger should go on trial. Or after WWII Winston Churhill should be put on trial for bombing German cities. God this is beyond silly. The Hague is useless and I am glad the US is not supporting the "World Court". It is nothing more then a bunch of socialist liberals putting their multicultural ivory tower view of the world on everyone else.

"We will know things are on the up and up with the Serbs with the interfaith commissions for Bosnia, Kosovo and Croatia find the Serbs joining hand in hand with their attempt to rid the Balkans of jihadists, rather than the Serbs churning out propaganda trying to convince the world that it needs them to "police" the Albanians and Bosnians, propaganda based on a lie that they are principally jihadists."

God! I do hope the Serbs and the Croats find peace but I will be damed if any peace can come from a jihadist supporting state. Good luck on that. You do realize the Albanians and Kosovar Muslims churn out their own propaganda with cash from the Arabian kingdoms.

To me this is common sense. You can have another muslim state created by jihad or allow the Serbs to win one for once. Once again I may not love the Serbs but I rather have them win this fight.

AmericanJewess

"I still have a problem with tactics of torture (unless it is to get information) and rape and humiliation. What's the point of that? Just kill them all, and if you must use weapons that ultimately kill women and children, well, that's a tragedy but as you said, we have to win to save ourselves. THAT I can understand. If you come to make war with me, then I will kill you if I can. I will kill you before you can kill me. That's self defense. But I don't need to delight myself with an assortment of little horrors (insert examples of wartime atrocities) before I kill you."

I agree with that. I am not supporting wild bands of men raping and killing children or anything like that. I however do accept that innocent people will die and may have to die to end a war.

In the words of William T. Sherman...

"This war differs from other wars, in this particular. We are not fighting armies but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war."

We are fighting a hostile people.....

Sometimes you have to make it bloody and quick so you can end it. If you don't it will just drag from one generation to the next. Israel is caught in that now. Somebody has to win and another has lose once and for all. It is what it is. I wish it were different and we could work out our differences but as has been pointed out time and again: Islam and the West are not going to get along as things stand now. One has to win and the other has to lose...

I want our culture and civilization to win.

Compare the US and Britain s stance on the Kosovo problem with the stance on Cyprus problem which is the mirror situation.
While on Kosovo there is a Muslim Albanian majority and a Serb minority in Cyprus there is a Greek Cypriot majority and a Turkish Cypriot minority.
In Kosovo the West supports majority rule,that is Albanian domination while in Cyprus it supports the Annan Plan which includes division of the iceland,veto power for the Turkish minority,political parity between majority and minority and above all the right of Turkey to intervene militarily.
The question to US,Britain and Morgaan Sinclair is simple.
Are you willing to give to the Serb Kosovar minority the rights you give to the Turkish Cypriot minority or vice versa are you willing to give to the Greek Cypriot majority the power you give to the Albanian Kosovar majority and why not?Why the double standards?
The only possible answer is that you consider Orthodox Christianity worse than Islam.
Let s be honest for once.

Morgaan Sinclair, the only reason I pointed out that the Muslims in the Balkans are there was by genocide, is that's all you seem to be saying about Serbs.

Yet NATO and UN investigators found absolutely no evidence of genocide when they scoured Kosovo for evidence of massacres. This has been given absolutely no air time in the main stream media, but people like you still use the same propaganda arguments that Bill Clinton used to bomb the Serbs.

I at no point said genocide is OK for any side, what I have said a thousand times now is that the only ethnic cleansing that has taken place in Kosovo has been against the Serbs.

I watched a video a couple of years ago where a Kosovar news camera followed a mob to an Orthodox church, that mob was in full view of Czech armoured vehicles that were part of KFOR and they allowed this mob to demolish this church in front of their eyes. No one ever mentions the atrocities that have happened there since the NATO bombings, but everyone talks about the propaganda, GIVE IT UP MAN!

I'm also curious how you manage to side step the facts that the Croats sided with the Muslims (just like in WWII) and committed countless atrocities against Serbs. Listening to you it sounds like the Serbs ran all over the Balkans killing innocent people, and the Croats and Muslim allies did nothing.

I guess the Medak Pocket incident where Canadian troops were attacked by Croatian forces led by Bosnian terrorist Agim Ceku didn't happen then? The Canadian troops came under fire after investigating a Serb village which was wiped out by Croatians. One of my best friends was there, he said the Croats killed every single thing that lived there. That was men, women, children, even their farm animals were killed and burned, and the Croats wanted to kill Canadian troops to cover it up.

I don't care what your answer to this is going to be, because I've heard all of the propaganda before. Kosovo is Serbian and it is immoral to break up this country as it is in the middle of the fight for its very own life.

I've read many posts here on this issue and I still can't believe how much of the propaganda against the Serbs is still out there.

The rape camps were proven to be bogus, the investigations into genocide turned up 6,000 bodies which were a mix of Serb, Albanian and Gypsy a far cry from the 100,000 mass graves shown via satellite by Jamie Shea the NATO spokes person.

How is it no one has been able to call the Clinton administration on these facts, but the George Bush administration has been raped by the media for his war in Iraq.

The double standards especially in our media are staggering and no one seems to be able to connect the dots.

The more I read the more I believe that Orthodox Christians are considered scum and are placed below the Islamists in every conflict. Well have your way folks, the monster in the room will eventually devour you once he's finished with us.

The motto for all Europeans, Americans, Australians, Indians and Asians should be

MUSLIMS---OUT!

Svermirko:

My husband, who was a Jewish psychologist, died several years ago. My half-Jewish son is a US Naval officer with a cryptographer's clearance. I am a Christian who tends strongly toward Orthodoxy, though I would at this point probably best still be classified a Catholic.

I have sent your post to JW management for libel.

Morgaan I personally don't care who you are, or say you are, I just know you will keep spewing propaganda against the Serbs as long as you can. May I say how American of you.

@ Morgaan

I guess thats your last line of defence. Who ask you anything about profesion of your husbant or son?Or your religion? But that was simpliest way to you to combat serbs. Quite the level of your intelect.

And you can libel me, label me or anything else as much as you want, but I AM ASSURED you are nothing but albanian lobbyst. And you can freath as much as yuo like but 'man is judged by his deeds, not by words'. Very ovbious fact that you are so loud on any single post about jihad against serbs,proportionaly your silence on other issues about jihad and as vell that labeling you as albanian mercenary hurts you more than anything else, speaks a lot of you.

C'mon, send this for a libel. And seal it with a tears and anger.

The fanatic:
I've read many posts here on this issue and I still can't believe how much of the propaganda against the Serbs is still out there.

Fanatic, my position differs from you and Morgaan Sinclair's. I think he is basically correct. Do you dispute the massacre at Srebinica? See here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
That was by Serbs.

To the best of my knowledge, many atrocities in Bosnia in the mid 90's were committed both by Serbs and Croats. The evidence is there, it is what was in the process of convicting Milosevic at the Hague before he accidentally committed suicide (whether he personally ordered any actions I find doubtful).

So I dont know how you get to the position that the Serbs are blameless.

Claiming Serbs as anti-semitic is poor and against history and reality, one can claim that a few individuals are anti-semitic but to accuse an entire nationality is just plain ignorant(Read: Stupid and Mentally Deficient). By that same token one can say that All White Americans are racist against non-whites because the KKK exists in America as a Radical Underground Movement.

http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Felman/snf-speech.html

is a speech by Richard L. Felman regarding the Serbs and their Sacrifice for America and Jews during WW2

And as a personal observation: While Driving from the Airport Toward Belgrade one of the First Buildings one comes to notice is a Massive Synagogue now if Serbia was so Anti-Semitic as some claim why is that Synagogue there? On top of which its in Pristine Condition.

Another interesting Tidbit Look at Population Distribution, if Serbia is the Ethnic Cleanser everyone seems to try to paint it out to be WHY does it have the largest Non-Serb populations of all the Former Yugoslav States? Excluding Bosnia who's population isn't integrated between the two republics and who's Croatian population would like a republic of its own.

The Link below is to an e-mail transcript between a Bosniak and a Journalist, I'm not going to say anything regarding it but it is an interesting read for everyone here I think

http://www.bannerofliberty.com/Serbs,BosniaKosovo/6-13-2005.1.html

Spectacles:

Whatever the Serbs did or didn't do during WW2 unfortunately doesn't mean that anti-Semitism is not rampant now. Unfortunately, it is rampant now, as the Helsinki and other reports over the last two years have attested.

Lying about it won't make the Jews there safe. Only the truth and a flinchless facing of it will result in real safety.

Morgaan,

Half-Jewish son????

Either youare Jewish or you are not. If his mother is Jewish then he's a Jew. His father's religion does not apply. May mother's father is Jewish but I am not, no matter how much I'm in touch with that heritage. If it had been my mother's mother then I would be a Jew. It was anti-Semites, particularly the Nazis, who condemned people as "half-Jews" or "quarter-Jews". Judaism has no such classifications.

Provoslavni, I would like you to clarify something. Are you really advocating ethnic cleasing of all people of Muslim religion, regardless of ethnicity, or because of it, between where you are (US sounds like) and Istanbul? Or is that Constantinople?

If so, can you tell me the difference between the concept of Dar-el-Harb proffered by the Muslim 6th century types and the ethnic cleansing of "claimed" areas that you yourself are advocating?

American Jewess
Hello,hello,anyone there.Have just woken up-different timeline & must rush off soon but see
'war of words' is still raging.
Should like to quote your own statement "Don't you dare equate Jewish Israeli Soldiers with Christian Serbs!!"
Why the Hell not-they're both fighting the same enemy.Notice Israelis have trained Serb soldiers
recently-also sent Serbs financial assistance.
Arguments of yourself and Morgaan Sinclair are spurious ones which turn to personal abuse if we
don't agree with your rants.
If Thomas Haidon[whom I believe is a Muslim] wants to do a 'holier than thou' act' well take a good look around Tom at what your Muslim Bros
are doing in Darfur.In Pakistan,Bangladesh,Indonesia,Nigeria,Afghanistan,Iraq and keep telling us that Islam is a Religion of Peace & Tolerance...
Hey-why are you living safely in a decadent Western Country instead of Saudi Arabia - all dopey Western converts ought to be taken to Chop
Chop Square & forced to watch hands being cut off,a beheading and a stoning...Get a REALITY CHECK THE THREE OF YOU.

I'm glad someone brought Up the Srebrenica Massacre Thess article should be interesting for those who still seem to hold on to that event so passionately and without Full Knowledge.

http://www.bannerofliberty.com/Serbs,BosniaKosovo/7-15-2005.1.html

The quote below is a Key Quote from the above link.

"It's a distasteful point, but it has to be said that, if you're committing genocide, you don't let the women go since they are key to perpetuating the very group you are trying to eliminate"

The Link below deals with the Politics surrounding the Srebrenica Massacre.

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm

I also repaste this link below because it deals a bit with Srebrenica and it really is an interesting read:

http://www.bannerofliberty.com/Serbs,BosniaKosovo/6-13-2005.1.html

Morgaan Sinclair

"Lying about it won't make the Jews there safe."

But the muslims will???

Morgaan Sinclair

Are you suggesting that I am Lying? I am merely pointing out inconsistencies with the Anti-semitic label.

Moving on to something interesting....

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=3905#comments

The above is a very noteworthy Article and the Comments as well are truly interesting I recommend that Everyone read it in its entirety(Comments and all). Although I will be honest the number of comments truly makes it a huge read but I think it will shed some light on the Situation between Jews and Serbs.

‘‘Major promoters of such anti-Jewish climate are to be traced down in a number of formal groups ranging from those that follow in the footsteps of a part of the Serbian Orthodox Church’s tradition leaning on the teachings of recently sanctified Bishop Nikolaj Velimirovic and his overt anti-Semitism, through those in the limelight of pop culture to today’s authorities unwilling to come to grips with growing intolerance.”

Speaking about libel, Iam sorry I cant libel you over insulting lies for a man who is saint to me and other Serbs. Nikolai as anti-Semite.If not sad if would be laughtable. Instead you just read our domestic traitors who serve just to whitewash west for Serbia misbehavior, you should better read history on that. And history said that Nikolai Velimirovic was imprisoned in Dahau con. camp during ww2. Only from that period, there is one small anti-Semite tractat for which its wide spread belived it was simply nazist foist. Its beyond your tragic view on serbs that you value more what some petty myrmidon of us governmet, incarnated in the form of Serbian ngo serviceman, have said, than the fact that Serbian patriarch with bishop Velimirovic spend his days in ww2 in conc. camp (and Iam not counting others bishops killed by Croatian-muslim proxyes in Jasenovac).
P.S.: For someone who tend to catholicism its amazing how you turn a blind eye for a Nikolais contemporary-croatian bishop Aloizije Stepinac and his antisemitizm.

Provoslavni,

The Russian Orthodox Church is in trouble, I’m afraid. Having been in stasis for over 7 decades, the newer, evangelical churches, knowing how to market themselves and appeal to people, have a clear field with which to sweep up converts.

The Orthodox community has been slow to pick up and reach out to people, it seems. Now I have nothing against the evangelical churches per se, even with the whole "earth is created in 6,000 years" or "here comes the end times", because they seem to get people to stop abusing alcohol and helps create loving marriages.

Now even though I am a Catholic, I found myself defending Russian Orthodox in arguments with Russians who have found a family with these new churches. And the most common argument I've heard is that Russian Orthodoxy is just to opaque, one doesn't know which ikon to place a candle, or the prayers, or the many rituals. Compare this with the immediacy of a personal relationship with Jesus, the contemporary pop-songs, and the lack of confusing rituals that seem to many to be detracting from ones worship with God. The Russian church is going to have to do more to overcome its 70-year gap.

Islam, with its foreign money, is slick, and is finding many new converts, due in part with Muslims finding Russian women fed up with the prevalent alcohol abuse of Russian males. On Friday they have Muslims talk at noon, I think on channel Rossiya, and they really make Islam seem beautiful and personal- this is a serious threat.

As I mentioned elsewhere, izvestia.ru had an article that discussed religion in which it said that islam.ru is a very popular website, where one, giving some personal information, can convert to Islam. 'Izvestia' did not say that the Russian Orthodox site was popular and was underwhelming.

Now as a Catholic, I would like to see a strong Orthodox Church, I respect Orthodoxy. Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, I feel, are still the standard bearers of Christianity, but I feel that the Russian Orthodox are unreasonably suspicious of Catholicism to notice the wolf at their backdoor.

The Russian Church made a big issue about the forming of diocese, insulted the Pope John Paul’s efforts to make amends by returning religious artifacts, for example the Ikon of Kazan’, put pressure on the Russian government to give or renew visa’s for Catholic priests, and prevent the construction churches. The Russian Orthodox Church is fighting the conflict from centuries ago, but is not facing the present evil that will destroy a Christian, Russia.

No visas for Catholic priests, but no problem letting Muslim students from the Middle East into Russia, all males of course, some connected with HAMAS, all who do not respect Russian culture or its people nor for their religion. I talked to them at a polytechnic institute and they all bragged about having 2-3 girlfriends, average age 14. yes 14… So what is the bigger threat? The Russian government is going to have to see the danger of all this, and do something about this. And the Russian Orthodox should push them to do this.

The foreign money for Mosques and da’wa, the prettying up of Islam to win converts and helping the nominal Muslims in Tartarstan and Bashkortostan find true Islam, this is the danger facing Russia.

I wish Russia, the Russian people, and the Russian Orthodox Church the best in facing down this danger.

Another interesting Article with Coments regarding the War in Bosnia below

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=3854

I am also repasting the other article I mentioned above incase it was believed that it was intended solely at Morgaan.

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=3905#comments

Again I behoove you all to read them in there Entirety Comments and all. They are very interesting and pertinent.

out of order,

My post above is a response to what provoslavni has written here:

"I agree, npabga, you'll get no arguments from me on this. Seventy years of socialist economics, state-imposed atheism, and Boslhevik terror, have left the great Russian culture in shambles. It will take at least another generation before they can get their act totally together. However, I believe Russia has a Divinely ordained mission to defend Orthodox Christian civilization. When she embarks on that mission, all the other problems will be rectified."

The worst thing Clinton, that perverted, immoral beast, did as President was to wage a bombing campaign against defenseless Serbians, in effect collaborating with their Muslim enemies. It was nothing less than a war crime and betrayal of fellow infidel allies, just as the U.S. is pushing Israel to make suicidal concessions to the Muslim Arabs today.

The American people will pay a heavy price for all of these evil deeds by our leadership.

There are plenty of us to defend both Catholic and Orthodox traditions. Note that in the early days of Milosevic, the Serb Orthodox church -- well, at least half of it -- protested Milosevic's tactics AND AIMS. Those people were eventually well-muzzled by the paramilitaries.

When the attack at Srebrenica was due to take place, some Serb Orthodox priests blessed those who went out to kill. When the rest of the Serb Orthodoxy hierarchy saw this film, their INITIAL, IMMEDIATE RESPONSE was to condemn it, which was appropriate. They did not deny it. They did not whine about it. They SCATHED the people who did this both to Serbia and to its Church.

The defense of the Serb Orthodox Church has nothing to do with Russia sidling up to a radical, hostile, militaristic nationalist movement in Serbia, now against those whom the paramilitaries tried to genocide and rape to death less than 15 years ago.

That's the wrong tack, folks. The right tack is for the Serbs to calm down, get a clear head, and ally themselves with the Catholics, Jews, Orthodox and moderates Muslims in Croatia, Kosovo, Bosinia and Serbia so that all, as brothers and sisters, can mount a defense against Wahhabism.

Does anybody see a problem with that?

There is a Problem with that Morgaan and that is that you assume that those other peoples have a cool head and have calmed down

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01437.shtml

The above Happened TODAY TODAY!(Twice for emphasis)

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01277.shtml
http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01398.shtml

The above are a series of links to Kosovo Albanian Cool Headedness and Calm, Note they have occured within the last two months, when by all accounts they should be Celebrating their political victories toward Independence.

http://serbianna.com/blogs/bozinovich/?p=55
http://serbianna.com/blogs/bozinovich/?p=54

The Blogs above show Some Interesting information for those interested perhaps even what the future has instore.

Morgaan Sinclair:
That's the wrong tack, folks. The right tack is for the Serbs to calm down, get a clear head, and ally themselves with the Catholics, Jews, Orthodox and moderates Muslims in Croatia, Kosovo, Bosinia and Serbia so that all, as brothers and sisters, can mount a defense against Wahhabism. Does anybody see a problem with that?

Yes. There is no such animal as "moderate Muslims". Point me out a moderate Muslim cleric in this world. There are only active and dormant Muslims. And that is because the Quran, Hadith collections & Sira advocate Muslims to commit evil against non-Muslims. You only have to look at the destuction committed by Muslims in European history to see this.

Morgaan Sinclair

"Does anybody see a problem with that?"

It is more then defeating Wahhabism. Islam in general cannot co-exist with the west.

Creating another Islamic state does not help catholics, serbs, jews or anybody except the warriors of Islam. So what...You do away with Wahhabism you still are in the same situation.

Cut the stupid insults people. This isn't good news for the local Muslim population. As the KFOR forces will leaving the area, this blow will drive the Serbs insane. And this time the USAF isn't there to help or stop anyone. In short, let's get ready to rumble.

Oops, *the KFOR forces will leave the area*, silly me.

Correct me if I am wrong,

Just to rehash, Serbia did not try to keep Yugoslavia together. It did not fight at all with Macedonia, and the army, not under civilian control, independently fought in Slovenia, until withdrawn, in the 10 days war. Serbia got involved by lending support in material and manpower in the ethnic conflicts in Croatia and in Bosnia.

Many posters, I think may think that the Muslims in Bosnia were Islamists. No, they could hardly be in any way be considered Muslim, because they are very secular, since communism quashed all expression of religion and pushed on the people atheism. Muslim is just a label.

So the wars in the 90s were ethnic, not religious, and the West should have got involved far sooner than it did to stop the killing. The Serbs, as well as other groups committed atrocities, but the Serbs committed more though, due to inheriting most of the Yugoslavian weaponry. The Serbs admit that some of their brethren did horrible things, as should the other participants. Using tu quoque just doesn’t fly.

But, Kosovo is a different, in that the KLA started to act as a conduit for militant Islam, or true Islam, so it is wrong to lump these to conflicts together.

Morgaan Sinclair:

you posted:

"The right tack is for the Serbs to calm down, get a clear head, and ally themselves with the Catholics, Jews, Orthodox and moderates Muslims in Croatia, Kosovo, Bosinia and Serbia so that all, as brothers and sisters, can mount a defense against Wahhabism"

In what way can you guarantee that the moderate Muslims from Bosnia will remain secular, as well as their children? Obviously the Islam of the Koran, Sunnah, and Mohammad's example is far different than the "Europeanized Islam" that did not come out of Islam, but was forced on it from above by Communism.

This is a serious issue. How to keep Bosnian Muslims safe, while keeping us safe? All it takes is someone preaching directly from the Koran to radicalize this population, some Saudi money.

Take care

Morgane:

Say what you want, but don't disparage the other posters, it is not good etiquette.

Take care.

Morgaan Sinclair, npabga, everyone else.

Lets cut to the chase.

If the Serbs tommorow massacred 1400 million Muslims and left not one page of the Quran, Hadith or Sira around, I would be overjoyed.
Problem solved, world would live in peace.
The world would have a reasonable future.
We could award the Serbs the Nobel Peace Prize for services to humanity.

If the Serbs were busy massacring Muslims, why should we stop them?

I dont see anything good in Islam. Untold misery has descended on the world ever since it appeared. It is estimated that between 50-100 million Hindus have been massacred over time by Muslims. Have you seem the history of Muslims in Europe - the invasions? Their crimes are immense.

Anyone here ever seen the Nobel prizes that the Jews have won compared to the Muslims? It is frankly unbelievable. Have a look here
http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-news/1456395/posts
It shows that the Jews have done immense contribution to mankind - no question.

The Muslims have done practically nothing - except rape, slavery (still around in Mauretania & Sudan), murder, theft. It is hardly surprising - the focus of Islam is inwards, not outwards.

Their contribution on music - none
Their contribution on art - just geometric, ceramics
Their contribution on mathematics - miniscule
Their contribution on medicine - miniscule
Their contribution on physics - miniscule
Their contribution on chemistry - miniscule
Their contribution on inventions - none
Their contribution on electronics - none

The only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.
The right response to Muslims is judgement - nothing else.

Spectacle thank you for the links. As for UK Infidel lover I don't believe I've ever stated the Serbs did not kill people, I most certainly have stated that they did not commit genocide as NATO and the Clinton administration still charge.

The genocide remarks are what have been used as the catalyst for the partition of Yugoslavia and this needs to stop.

As General Lewis Machenzie has stated many times there is no evidence of genocide in Bosnia and the numbers as usual are exagerated to allow the severing of Kosovo. The genocide in Kosovo by the Serbs also never took place as evidence shows, but all seem to want to ignore it.

Why is it that you don't recognize the killing of Serb civillians by both Bosnian Muslims and Croats, but list erroneous reports of a massacre that had its numbers completely overblown. 8,000 killed in Srebenica, is actually 2,500 with 5,000 considered missing, Kosovo 100,000 mass graves, 6,000 found shown to be a mix of every one that lives in that area including Serb.

This portrayal of the Serbs has been unjust and continues to be perpetuated by many like yourself.

The American people will pay a heavy price for all of these evil deeds by our leadership.

They did and so did all of us in the West. Supporting the Islamosfascits ij Bonia and Kosovo was a big mistake. Success of the Jihad in Europe proper, when Muslims got the support of the US, is what kicked of the Jihad against the West and 9/11 was the result.

----------
Uk Infidel Lover,

I see we disagree here, and that is fine.

My only gripe with many of the posters here is that they equate the Bosnian Muslims from 1992-1995 as being jihadists, or practicing Muslims. Practically to the person they were not. Communism quashed such beliefs in Allah and totally neutered Islam of its violent heritage.

It was wrong to kill unarmed Bosnian Muslims (only de jure - not remotely de facto) as it is wrong to kill anybody who is unarmed and not supporting the enemy in the time of war. That is all. I don't consider the actions of any party in Bosnia as genocide.

Kosovo was in 1999 and even now is different, and I think the Serbs have a claim, and we should allow them, the Serbs, if necessary to act harshly.

About if they were to massacre 1.4 billion Muslims, it is too hypothetical to treat as reality, and this should not be seen as some type of litmus test. And I am well aware of Islamic history - currently I am reading Andrew Bostom’s "The Legacy of Jihad", which I am sure you've read as well, since you are a knowledgeable fellow.

Take care

Morgaan Sinclair:
Provoslavni, I would like you to clarify something. Are you really advocating ethnic cleasing of all people of Muslim religion, regardless of ethnicity, or because of it, between where you are (US sounds like) and Istanbul? Or is that Constantinople?

Ethnicity does not come into it.
Arab Christians, Arab Hindu, Arab Buddist, Arab Shintoist - all fine. In fact Arab anything just as long as it is not Arab Muslim or any other
xxxx Muslim. So if cleasing of all people of Muslim religion, regardless of ethnicity, started tomorrow, promptly and concluded with all Islamic material destroyed, all mosques destroyed, all Islamic media centres destroyed, the world will rid of one massive massive problem.

If so, can you tell me the difference between the concept of Dar-el-Harb proffered by the Muslim 6th century types and the ethnic cleansing of "claimed" areas that you yourself are advocating?

We did not start this. They did. Their constant totalitarian war on non-Muslims - see European, Indian & North African history. But we should finish it. If their religion was non-totalitarian, there would be no problem. But it is not and it is pointless pretending otherwise.
Not tomorrow, not the day after, but sometime they will kill your children's children.

Now that I've had a chance to catch up with some these posts I'd like to ask if Bosnians are moderate secular Muslims why would they be the only country on earth issuing Osama Bin Laden a passport?

Furthermore its a fact that Bosnia is a breeding ground for terrorists as Mujaheddin from all over the mid east have made permanent residence there and set up training camps. Are we going to blame the Serbs for this sudden spiritual awakening by secular moderate Muslims? Give me a break!

UK Infidel Lover:

I think the issue is this, the core of our disagreement, from your post:

“If the Serbs were busy massacring Muslims, why should we stop them?”

It is my thinking that the Muslims in Bosnia from 1992-1995 are not Muslims at all. So they shouldn’t have been killed.

That is it.

Take care

Morgaan Sinclair asked me: "Provoslavni, I would like you to clarify something. Are you really advocating ethnic cleasing of all people of Muslim religion, regardless of ethnicity, or because of it, between where you are (US sounds like) and Istanbul? Or is that Constantinople?"

Okay, I'll bite...

First a definition of terms. "Ethnic Cleansing" is inaccurate since we are talking about an ethnic group but Islam, a militant totalitarian ideology bent on world domination. I fully support Albanian Catholics like Blessed Mother Theresa and the new Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania led by Archbishop Anastasios who insisted from the start that the church that was to be revived would be an Albanian Church.

What I advocate is the ideological cleansing of Islam just as I would have supported the denazification of Germany after WWII and the decommunization of the former Soviet bloc. Muslims must be forced to abandon their miltant ideology or be expelled. An example to follow is that of Blessed Isabel of Castille who effectively purged Spain of the Muslim threat.

As for those Muslims who are allowed to remain, they should live under the same dhimmitude to non-Muslims that they impose on Christians, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhists in the Ummah. This will encourage them to reconvert to their original faiths that they had before the Islamic conquest.

And... Yes it still is Constantinople, the city that is the heart of both Orthodoxy and Byzantine Catholicism. Just because the Turks conquered it and massacred its inhabitants does not give Muslims any more right to Constantinople than military conquest gave the Nazis the right to control Paris. Islam is a threat just like Communism and Nazism were before. It should be treated the same.

The fanatic:

In my posts I've said they were originally, and that they are in danger of further backsliding.

As wars progress, their is a tendency to slip into Islam, it happened in Chechnya with Dudayev, and it happend in Bosnia. If the west stepped in super quick, it could have prevented this slide.

my posts from above, in case you missed it:
"People who have recently thrown off decades of communist and by default atheist rule, regardless of their nominal religious affiliation, are not prone to religious extremism. In Russia, where I lived for sometime, it was perfectly fine to see a Muslim and Jew work together. I had them in my class and had them work together, without any animosity or problems between them.

"The same is true for the former Yugoslav Republics. Religion is just another label, and is rarely practiced with devotion, whether by Orthodox, Catholic, or Muslim.

"Now that being said, could this Islam ... turn aggressive and regress? Yes, because it is my belief that this highly Europeanized Islam has nothing to do with the melding of cultures, the type that many Euro politicians base a false hope on developing from immigrants, but everything to do with the fact that Communism thrashed out completely all religious belief. Communism created this wonderful, almost secular Islam. But as the old generation dies out, and their offspring are left with their religious labels, you will see the destruction of "Europeanized Islam".

"I remember being in Sarajevo at the old tunnel that ran under the airport, the one that was the life-blood of the besieged city, and noting that the Saudi flag was prominently displayed along with the US's. Just the start of a resurgence I am afraid, as the house of Saud gets its tendrils into a new fissure, or as people discover their family history.

"Will most Muslims in Bosnia and Albania do this? I don't think so, particularly the 'Bosniaks'. But time will tell."

And to Morgan who wanted interfaith dialogues:

"In what way can you guarantee that the moderate Muslims from Bosnia will remain secular, as well as their children? Obviously the Islam of the Koran, Sunnah, and Mohammad's example is far different than the "Europeanized Islam" that did not come out of Islam, but was forced on it from above by Communism.

"This is a serious issue. How to keep Bosnian Muslims safe, while keeping us safe? All it takes is someone preaching directly from the Koran to radicalize this population, some Saudi money."

npabga:
It is my thinking that the Muslims in Bosnia from 1992-1995 are not Muslims at all. So they shouldn’t have been killed.

The acid test is shahadah.
If they beleive that they are Muslim.
If they are Muslim, then I lose no sleep if the Serbs or Croats eliminated them.

It will, eventually, come to our elimination or subjugation and I see no reason why Muslims (be they immigrants or 2nd generation) should be allowed to eliminate or subjugate me in my own nation. Eventually, you will have to defend yourself and your family.

You realise that Theo van Gogh, a Dutchman was murdered in Holland by an immigrant Muslim?
And why should they be permitted to murder any more?

I would probably go a little bit further than that, since the shahadah could just be seen as the most basic Muslim belief by those unaware of the actual teachings. Beyond the Shahadah one should at minimum ask: Is Mohammad the perfect example to live by? Should Islamic law run the world? and is the Koran the perfect uncreated word of Allah, immutable and unable to be changed?

If they so no, this would show that they are possibly reformers. If after answering yes to these three questions, and after hearing about Aisha and Mohammad's horrendous actions, but still thinking he is a prophet, then yes, they are Muslim, and should be educated and their religion mocked, and if they take part in hostilities, even with material support or giving shelter, then they should be dealt with harshly.

Take care.

npga It's great that you have some basis seeing yourself Muslims and Jews working in the Soviet Union, however that backsliding was going to happen anyway. The Serbs were not the ones who fired the first shots in these wars, but they certainly have taken the blame.

As for the Albanians you refer to are considered by many in Europe to be a plague of biblical proportion. They have dreamt up the Greater Albanian Concept making territorial claims on almost every neighbor and show no sign of giving those dreams up.

They claim to be part of some Illyrian Empire, I guess everybody had an empire now, and even though there is no evidence of Illyrian language, culture, or of the Albanians even existing their before Ottoman rule, we are going to have to accept their claims the way things are going in the Balkans today.

The fanatic,

The Balkans is a tangled web of claims and counter claims, but there is a universal constant. Nobody likes the Albanians. Just something I've noticed.

A minor point, but I worked there just last year, when Russia has already experienced wars with Islamists for 12 years, so this was not during the Soviet 'Golden Age' of togetherness, if it ever existed. This secularism is deeply ingrained, and offers a golden opportunity.

But one thing I noticed that once war happens between ethnic groups (doesn't matter if a state falls a part, or the actions of the leaders), and one of the groups is nominally Muslim, eventually the Muslims will begin to look abroad for funding. Particularly if they are losing. And there is a lot of oil money to be had, for a price, just need to let in some imams. And then their comes the foreign fighters to rage jihad to get into paradise. And then local populace gets radicalized.

Many Chechens are now deeply radicalized, and it will take the harshness of the old Soviet regime to beat it out of them and replace this belief with something else (communism). Putin did a good job of thrashing them, but has not replaced Islam with something else. So this is incomplete.

However in Tartarstan or other predominately Muslim areas, or even the Ingush which borders Chechnya, there is less radicalism, because they have not been involved in the fighting. The Tartars are still in general very extremely secular, and will continue to be, if Russia were to step up and prevent the M.E. states from funding Imams or mosques. But I don't think they are doing enough.

Yes the backsliding is very real, and I see it happening in both Bosnia and Russia (though admittedly I spent too little time in Bosnia). But it is possible to prevent a further slide by locking in these people's beliefs now, mocking and pointing out the failings of Mohammad, making it a crime for pushing for Sharia, to wage acts of Jihad, to wear the headscarf, or to except foreign money or clerics. Make it reciprocal: you can build mosques if Saudi Arabia builds churches. Those that backslide can be re-educated, or if they refuse to give in, be deported.

There is more that can be done, but there is still hope yet.

The Secular Muslims learn very quickly the link below is some of their best work during the Conflict in Bosnia, I can't look at the slide show available at the link its too gruesome

**Warning the link below contains violent and vile content**

http://serbianna.com/features/srebrenica/

The Video of the Beheading by Bosnijaks in Bosnia is slightly more bearable. It shows A Mujahadeen instructing the Bosnijaks where to cut the man along the face and neck and tried to force the man to cry out "Allah Akbar" the Video then cuts to his dead body, head carved up. Below the Video is the Story.

It is quite gruesome.

Spectacles,

Thanks for the link, I'll take it at its word without actually looking at the video or pictures.

Islam is at its core is violent, and whenever there is blood shed with Muslims involved, no matter how secular the native Muslims, the true believers, with Korans in their hands, with the knowledge of true Islam in their heads, Allah Akbar on their lips, and hatred in their heart, will arrive and teach the native secular in-name-only Muslims what Islam is all about.

I firmly believe that the local Muslims did not do this originally until they began to be influenced by outside fighters, and many of these are done by foriegners.

From the post above by Spectacles:

"The Video of the Beheading by Bosnijaks in Bosnia is slightly more bearable. It shows A Mujahadeen instructing the Bosnijaks where to cut the man along the face and neck and tried to force the man to cry out 'Allah Akbar' the Video then cuts to his dead body, head carved up. Below the Video is the Story."

Which reinforces my point, these actions went against these secular Muslims' very natures, but forced to do it by those who are rendering aid and fighters, and quoting the Koran.

From the above link:
"All Carla Del Ponte would have to do is stop at any 'Islamic Cultural Center' in Bosnia and obtain a video copy."

And who funds these Islamic cultural centers?
We all know the answer.

I still stand by my original points.

Take care.

Posted by Provoslavni: Yes it still is Constantinople, the city that is the heart of both Orthodoxy and Byzantine Catholicism. Just because the Turks conquered it and massacred its inhabitants does not give Muslims any more right to Constantinople than military conquest gave the Nazis the right to control Paris.

Well said. Occupied Constantinople would have been free had it not been for Western powers opposing Russia.

I have faith though that this evil empire of Islam will be destroyed, and not just Constantinople but Jerusalem and other realms under this threat of Islam, will be free.

UK Infidel Lover,

didn't catch your two questions at the end of your post:

"You realise that Theo van Gogh, a Dutchman was murdered in Holland by an immigrant Muslim?
And why should they be permitted to murder any more?"

1.) Yes
2.) Nobody should murder anyone

Take care

Backsliding Indeed, the Link is to a Bosnian Muslim group Convicted of Planning a terrorist attack, the possible first of many "White Al-Qaeda" groups that can enter Europe without drawing as much attention to themselves. This was ofcourse Pre Sulejman Talovic so it goes largely un-noticed in the West.

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01033.shtml

And it is going to get worse, unless more is done to stop it.

AmericanJewess et al... did some Serbs rape Muslims? Is there not rape in every war?

But the context of the media was simple: Serbs evil, Albanian Muslims saints. This was/is the context. But there is also a larger 'missed' context; is there not? Many claim Israel kills and maims Arabs; do they not? Is there not a metaphor here... a lack of understanding that Jihad is indeed a central part of the hatred of Israel, and Jihad is a key component of the Balkan strife as well. Instead this lengthy tit for tat here misses the larger issue, playing into the hands of Jihad I might add.

Armenia. Israel. Albania. India. It's the Jihad, mam. Indeed the whole misguided Iraqi enterprise suggests that, sadly, this lesson has not been learned. Instead, we verve into taking the case of the Serbian aggresion towards Muslims, or the Russian atrocities in central Asia, or Israel's treatment of Arabs, entirely missing why living together as Muslim and non-Muslim might be ok at first, but once a critical mass of Muslims arive, the living together in peace becomes increasingly more difficult. I wish that were not true, but the truth is an unflinching madam.

The Links below are more interesting reading They are to another blog, these are rather comprehensive and have quite a few links, embedded, may prove interesting reading.

The First Details some conections between Nazi Germany and Kosovo Albanians and their actions during WW2 and in recent times their Honoring of their past Nazi Legacy.

http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?p=25

And the second details a trial regarding a Rape Camp organized by Bosnian Muslims and how/why the Big Lie technique works, add a little Censorship and Voila Instant Bosnian Muslim Victims. The link below however paints a very different picture that coincides more with reality.

http://serbianna.com/blogs/savich/?p=27

I suggest you follow the links embedded as well truly interesting reading.

Athenian wrote: " Compare the US and Britain's stance on the Kosovo problem with the stance on Cyprus problem which is the mirror situation.
While on Kosovo there is a Muslim Albanian majority and a Serb minority in Cyprus there is a Greek Cypriot majority and a Turkish Cypriot minority. In Kosovo the West supports majority rule,that is Albanian domination while in Cyprus it supports the Annan Plan which includes division of the island,veto power for the Turkish minority,political parity between majority and minority and above all the right of Turkey to intervene militarily."

Excellent comparison Athenian. How true! I agree with you that U.S. and British policies toward the Eastern Christian Orthodox community in Serbia and Cyprus has been despicable.

If you want to dig into the past you will soon discover that a former U.S. diplomat, Henry Kissinger, made some terrible decisions on America's behalf when the Turks invaded Cyprus.

Read about them all here:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,912095,00.html

As an American, I am embarassed that the U.S. has stood against the Serbs and Greek Cypriots. No wonder the U.S. is despised in these countries. Time for some U.S. policy changes in Serbia and Cyprus. Unfortunately, I don't have much hope in Condi Rice or President Bush to correct the U.S. policies in Kosovo or Cyprus.

Biorabbi, I don't know if you read all my comments. I will just try to give the condensed version here: I support the anti-jihad movement and I understand that Islam must be defeated and sent packing, but that can be done by deporting or killing. There is no need to rape, torture, maim, mutilate, unless one derives some perverse delight from doing such things. Raping women is wrong, which has been my sole focus and contribution to this discussion. I'd feel more comfortable forming an alliance with Serbians if they had conducted a more ethical war, that's all. And by ethical I don't mean being nice to the enemy -- I simply mean doing what needs to be done to get the Muslims OUT, but raping and mutilating hardly seems necessary.

Looks like Isreal just got offered their Version of the "Ahtissari Plan"/"Rambouillet" this one will carve up Israel returning it to the Boarders prior to the 1967 War and Giving East Jerusalem to a Palestinian State in return they get recognized by the entire Arab world.

http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=4330#comments

Lets just hope if(More likely WHEN) they reject it that they don't get demonized as much as the Serbs, otherwise we may have Israelis coming here denying the exsistance of Rape Camps/Genocide or whatever other such nonsense is cooked up to turn them into the next villain for the masses to spit on and ridicule.

Some wonderful drivel from sinclair and ian.

Perhaps one should quote a prosecution witness from the Milosevic trial. The senior Croat advisor to Tudjman - Hrvoje Sarinic - who acted as Tudjmans confidential envoy to Milosvic - talked of Milosevic being worried about ISLAMISTS in the early 90's. A full decade before 9 11.

He said that Milosevic was so worried about the rise of the Islamists in the Balkans, he would go on about it all the time. So much so, the Croat called it Milosevic's LEITMOTIF - For any Wagnerians out there, a "LEITMOTIF" is a recurring theme or melody that is present throughout a piece.

ADMIT IT SINCLAIR AND IAN , THE SERBS WERE A GOOD DECADE AHEAD OF 9 11 IN THEIR WARNINGS OF ISLAMISTS. ADMIT IT

"So as we left shortly after the meeting, in the plane he said to me, "Here is what Slobo," as he called him, "gave me." And I looked at this piece of paper. It was written in black ballpoint pen, and roughly it said the following, that the Muslims were a major evil. Actually, that one should be cautious about this so-called green, zelena transverzala, going from Turkey, Bulgaria, Western Macedonia, Kosovo and Sandzak, and that this was a major threat for Bosnia and also for peace in the area, that the Muslims had already hung a green flag on Mount Romanija, a mountain close to Sarajevo, and that they wanted an unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina in which they would rule, while the Croats and the Serbs would be minorities."

AND THE FOLLOWING

"I would say that that was the leitmotif of the accused ( Milosevic) generally. And he said to me on one occasion that there were about 2.500 Mujahedin who had come in from other Islamic countries to help their brethren in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And he also told me that the Muslims are a great evil because of their demographic explosion and that it would all cost us a great deal unless we're cautious. So that this fundamentalism, and if we refer to the green tranverzala, the line I mentioned a moment ago, then this can be seen in very vivid form."

THE SERB'S MISTAKE WAS BEING A GOOD DECADE OF 9 11

ADMIT IT LOONY TUNES IAN AND SINCLAIR.

Logic classes from idiot Ian and moron Sinclair.

Class 1
The Serbs got invaluable help from Israel, the KLA got invaluable help from the Muslim world who called the fighting in Kosovo a "JIHAD"

According to Mr logic Ian and moron Sinclair this is equivalent to

Serbia = Hamas

and

the KLA = Israel.

Next class: "Why The World is Flat" and "2 + 2 = 4 The Big Lie"

The portrayal of the Serbian People as bloodthirsty beasts prone to orgies of senseless murder and rape is similar to the Jewish Blood Libel. The Serbs and The Jews both have been and are now Scapegoat Nations. They both stand in the way of someone's Big Damned Project and they both must swept aside and put down with the cockroaches so they can be crushed without any great objection.

Fellow Jihadwatchers- I, november1981, was recently surfing at Point Dume, a somewhat unknown point break just north of Los Angeles when between sets, I struck up a conversation with a fellow surfer who identified himself as a die-hard "Eurabian".

The following is a sample of his monologue that I have faithfully reconstructed to the best of my memory-

MONOLOGUE BEGINS NOW:

"Yes, Serbs are savage beasts born to murder innocents. How do I know? Because the Croatian Information Minister said so in a press conference.

Yes, Jews are Apes and Pigs. How do I know? Because quran says so, and so does that imam I saw speaking to those Kuwaiti schoolchildren on the Memri website.

Yes, the Bosnian Serbs had an official policy of widespread and systematic rape as a tool of war. How do I know that? Because the Bosnian Muslim Information Minister held a press conference. His name is Muhammed Sacirbegovic and he's a good muslim and he would never lie.

Yes, the Jews kidnap Goy toddlers for use in blood rituals. How do I know that? I can't explain, but I just KNOW it. And actually everybody knows that

EVERYBODY

Yes, the Mossad inserted themselves(in the Saidian sense?ED.) into Serbia in the early 1990's in order to assist the Nephilim and the Grey Aliens in extracting the Jews from Serbia with Black Helicopters and other assorted Vimana craft-

THAT'S HOW MUCH THEY FEARED THEM!

-It's a story of such unspeakable horror that nobody's ever told about it or wrote a book or a news article about it anywhere! ever! As a matter of fact you didn't even hear about it and I never even mentioned it and let's just forget that I never mentioned it and be done with it

Yes, the IDF slaughtered 5000 innocent "Palestinians" in the GENOCIDE AT JENIN! just as !THE SERBS!(RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!) executed 9000 innocent men(and boy's!) in the SLAUGHTER AT SREBRENICA!- (5pm eastern/8pm pacific only on FOX-ED.)

"Did you know that I just ran into former Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Sahid-Sahaf at a Caribou Coffee in Culver City and he told me that he was in Bosnia in 1995 and he was across the road from Srebrenica hiding behind a bush with Paddy Ashdown and they saw the whole thing! And it wasn't 5000 men(and boys!) that were ruthlessly and brutally and bloodthirstily slaughtered but more like 19,786(that we know about!)
and while he said it was true that !THE SERBS! did in fact separate the women from the men, what is not widely reported on is the fact that they actually culled out the pregnant women and had Zionist vegetarians do ex-rays to determine which of the unborn fetuses were male whereupon they hacked the male fetus out of the moderate largely pro-Western Bosninan Muslim mother's stomach and performed paraffin tests to determine which of the male fetuses had traces of gunpowder on their hands and if they did- well they were thrown into line and marched off to the death pits with the others; but not before they were forcibly and horribly baptised and made to sing Chetnik songs while they carved crosses into the left buttox of whichever fetus was standing to the right of them. Now you might think this story is fantastic, but I believe this guy-

HE HAD LIQUID BROWN EYES!

Former Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saheed-Sahaf further informed me (and he admitted that this was only second-hand information) that during the Kosovo war, his good buddy Keith Ellison along with Bono and Bernard Henry-Levi were cruising over Bosnia at a very strategic altitude in an un-manned drone when they stumbled upon an outlaw band of cut-throat Orthodox Christian Imperialists led by Vlade Divac, Serge Trifkovic and Mila Jovovic (Nebojsa Malic bringing up the rear)he saw them digging up mass-graves with an illegal Caterpiller and then throwing the partially decomposed and previously humiliated bodies into the beds of fascist Zastava trucks and whatever Yugos they could find that were still running and then driving them to some place in eastern Serbia where they stuffed them into a refrigerator truck without air-conditioning on a hot August night and dumped them into that lake there- but not before dressing them up as Innocent Unarmed Albanian Civilians and raping them yet again. Now you might not believe this guy but I swear the whole story was backed up by his two friends that he introduced to me as Blindfolded Anonymous Witnesses #'s 8417 and 1196; you just knew that they were there and they survived the ordeal- you could see it in the face. Not to mention that one of the guys said he was friends with Sonja Biserko-that seals it.

So let me just recap before we move on-

We know that Serbs are raping beasts and that Jews are apes and pigs and also that Serbs rape apes and pigs and that American Jewess finds them revolting- all of them(not the apes and pigs mind you, but the Serbs)

but did you know that Zionist Jews steal Christian children and boil them in water to make sweet and sour cabbage soup? My Traditional Muslim friend Izet(and I believe this guy because he's a self-described moderate and he grew up in a socialist country) told me about how he walked in to a Zionist delicatessen and saw it right there on the menu and he ordered it and it tasted just like the Kufaar Stew he had at that Abkhaz cafe on the east side of Tiflis that time in May. He's never gone back to that place in Tiflis and he'll never again patronize a Zionist Deli(only "Zionist" delicatessens mind you -he has nothing against regular old Jewish delis)

We also know that American soldiers kidnap Iraqi Kurds and use them for sinister medical experiments before they rape them and pile them into fleshy human pyramids and humiliate them by making them look at naked American women with their Big American Breasts. How do we know that? Because the Turks made a movie called Valley of the Wolves Iraq and that's what the movie was about. And it got positive reviews from representatives of the Lancet Group and the ICG-not to mention the rare "Five Camel" rating it recieved from the Organization of Islamic Countries Film Society.

We also know that drunken Serb toddlers are instilled with a deep irascible and lusty hatred for Ruthenian Pomaks. How do we know. Because there is a group called-

THE HELSINKI COMMITTEE FOR THE HUMAN RIGHTS OF THE RUTHENIAN POMAKS OF ZEMUN AND THE GREATER BELGRADE AREA

-and they're an NGO and they get lots of free money no strings attached to do good things with and they released this report you see and they're totally objective and unbiased and we know that they are because they're international and multi-national and they're dedicated to co-operation and integration and they have HELSINKI in their name so they've got to good and just and right. And we must kneel down low and !pray to Marduk! that we can somehow get those Pomaks out of there before some vile drunken Serb adolescents go nationalist and try to genocide them!

We also know that 50 years of Socialism/Communism totally killed off any sense of Muhammed Jihad and Total Mental Submission and inbred hostility toward the "infidel other" imparted to those muslims through the centuries of exposure to the attitudes and atmospherics of Islma. Those Chechens and Uzbeks and various other Turkic and Caucasian muslims they weren't waging Jihad in Afghanistan, Kashmir or the Caucasus, they were merely engaging in various and unconnected struggles of "national liberation". No Islam there. No Jihad. None. The Russkies took care of that. Anyway, they're Sufis, everybody knows they're too busy chanting and whirling to engage in any type of warlike trans-national fisticuffs.

And those wars in Bosnia and Kosovo really had nothing to do with Islam or Jihad or the unwillingness of Islamic minorities to integrate themselves into the greater non-muslim milieu. And when Alija Izetbegovic penned such inconsequential
and harmless little ditties like this one-

"There can be neither peace nor coexistence between the Islamic faith and non-Islamic societies and political institutions"

or this one-

"A nation, and an individual, who has accepted Islam is incapable of living and dying for another ideal after that fact. It is unthinkable for a Muslim to sacrifice himself for any tzar or ruler, no matter what his name may be, or for the glory of any nation, or party or some such, because acting on the strongest Muslim instinct he recognizes in this a certain type of godlessness and idolatry. A Muslim can die only with the name of Allah on his lips and for the glory of Islam, or he may run away from the battlefield."

or this one-

"the Islamic movement should and must start to take over the power as soon as it is morally and numerically strong enough not only to overthrow the existing non-Islamic order, but also to build up a new Islamic authority."

or this one, where he declared the ultimate goal for the muslims was-

"The implementation of Islam in all aspects of individuals' personal lives, in the family and in society, by the renewal of Islamic religious thought, and by creating a uniform Muslim community from Morocco to Indonesia."

-Only a freaking idiot or some type of serb would think that this guy was in any way motivated by a devotion to the tenets and attitudes of Islam. The man was obviously bluffing. Everybody knows that he wrote such silly things only in order to fool the leaders of the various Islamic countries that he traveled to in the late 1980's with his hand out to get cash in order to build a truly democratic forward-looking and atheistic Bosnia. True, the sale of pork would be banned but only because pigs are unclean and they smell bad. The consumption of alcohol would be officially discouraged simply as a result of general health and safety concerns. Yes, he attempted to ban Santa Claus in 1995, but there was nothing of the Islamic Intolerance of Non-Islamic Tradition in that act, it's merely because we all know that Santy Claus is just a Big Fat Lie. Okay- lots of Mosques would be built, lots of big new towering mosques would be built all over and everywhere and of course people would be encouraged to attend in large numbers and regularly to listen to those ho ho hodjas, but only that they might comprehend the folly of their ancestors devotion to this singularly rigid and uncompromising Abrahamic faith. And when Our Man Alija passed out copies of The Islamic Declaration to all members of the Bosnian Muslim fighting forces, the tract which contained the lines quoted above, it was only to burn for warmth in the trenches or to paper-wipe their now non-muslim(after socialism) but still very moderate and Traditional behinds

And all those thousands of foreign Mujahideen who poured into Bosnia from all over Europe and the Islamic world? Those were actually D'Souzite Traditional Muslims that were invited in by the Post-Socialist Moderate Non-Muslim Izetbegovic, that they might prevent the take-over of the Bosnian Muslim Army by the sinister Wahhabists.

And don't you know that the modern-day Wahhabis are actually Serbian soccer hooligans from the Red Star Club who were recruited by The Zionists as part of a grand campaign to tarnish the image of Traditional Islam?

And don't you know that Sultan Murat, when he met the Serbs at the battle of Kosovo in the year 1389 , that he with his host of hundreds of thousands, was not really out to conquer Europe and subdue it to the Islamic Order; but that he merely wanted a bit of lebensraum for his moderate subjects who followed the tolerant form of Ottoman Turkish Islam who were being pushed out of Asia Minor by the fanatic Christian Crusaders who swept out of Sidon, killing moderate Turkish Muslims, raping their farm animals and eating all their cheese burek. In retrospect, the Turkish invasion of Europe seems completely justified and in my opinion, the Serbs come off looking just a tad bit selfish and unsympathetic. And Vienna- they could have given an inch. I find it an outrageous display of European incivility that they made the Turks take by force what they could have been given freely..."

monologue continues:

"Before I paddle in, I must say a word or two about Kosovo. I have to admit, I was never really excited about a multi-ethnic Kosovo. You know how it was before 1999 when it was still administered from Belgrade and populated by Serbs, Albanians, Montenegrins,Roma, Egyptians, Ashkali, Gorani, Turks, Circassians, Non-Zionist Jews, Serbian Muslims, Vlachs, Croats and "Bosnjaks"etc? I mean that's just boring. I live in a multi-ethnic society here in the States and ba humbug for that.
You see, the Albanians have a saying that goes something like this-

"Feja Shiptare eshte Shiptaria"

Which translates out to-"the religion of the Albanians is Albanianism".

It's much more interesting for me to read about what happens to a multi-ethnic society one when ethnic group whose race is their religion and whose religion is their race becomes overwhelmingly dominant and begins chasing all the other groups out at gunpoint. The story gets even better when that multi-ethnic society is invaded by a much larger multi-ethnic society in a war launched in the name of multi-ethnic tolerance and the multi-ethnic invaders stand around in the aftermath of the conflict and look on passively or actively assist in the pushing out of all the lesser ethnic groups by the dominant ethnic group- all the while singing laments about what this means for the future of the multi-ethnic society. Now that's tragedy, that's dramatic irony and that's a story I can sink my teeth into.

The way we Eurabians see it, Serbia stands in the way of EU/NATO expansion into the Balkans so they must be crushed. But before we can crush them we must completely dehumanize them so that any violence we bring upon them will be tolerated by the masses. So we sanction the use of racial epithets to describe them and attribute to them all sorts of maniacal genetic proclivities and in essence we accuse them of committing genocide in the pursuit of "Greater Serbia" so we can, under the cover of a humanitarian intervention, invade them and commit genocide against them in the name of "Greater Europa"."

END OF MONOLOGUE BY "EURABIAN" SURFER AT POINT DUME

november1981 continues(ED.)

People, just forget "Greater Serbia", it's a "strawman", just like in 1914, an Axis of European powers invaded Serbia for their Big Damned Project, and in 1939 Hitler specially targeted Serbia for destruction in the name of his Damned Reich so again a Greater European Axis(this EU/NATO Eurabian Behemoth) has invaded Serbia and it too will fall like the others before and Plucky Little Serbia will remain- badly bruised, but a little wiser and a little "Greater"

Just last month, a high level bureaucrat in the EU Commission was secretly tape-recorded saying:

"...and about those Jews and their infernal Jewish state, they stand in the way of a greater Eurabian Trans-Meditteranean integration and so therefore we must- wait a second, everybody knows the Jews are apes and pigs. Everybody. We don't need to demonize them, we just drive them into the sea and the good Well-Behaved Non-Zionist Jews will survive and swim to the Canary Islands and the Evil Zionist Jews will sink to the bottom because pigs don't fly and apes can't swim."

It should now be clear to all that the only thing preventing the Eurabians from achieving Total World Domination is the existence of The Serbs and The Jews

Fellow Jihadwatchers, the following type presented in quotes, is an excerpt from a highly-classified internal memo intercepted by one of our "Deep Cover" moles at NATO headquarters in Brussels and sent to our offices here at The Foundation For The Defense Of Committees-

EXCERPT STARTS NOW:

"Serbs?

-bad, very bad. Violent, lustful rapists and just all-around unseemly bastards. And most likely their women are all whores. Selfish too.(Not just the 50 or so Serbs indicted by the ICTY, not just the 150,000 or so who served in the Bosnian Serb and Krajina Serb Armies but all Serbs everywhere in Serbia and in the diaspora- all of them everywhere equally disgusting and abominable)

Jews?

-bad, not as bad as the Serbs but very bad. Most sinister. Very smart and very wiley- watch out! They are generally to be avoided- unless you are pretending to befriend them in order to lure one of their women into a rape or just to learn from them so you can steal all of their cool ideas before you kill them; other than that they are to be scrupulously avoided. Very corrupting, very corrosive- be warned!

Bosnian Muslims?

-born without sin. Nothing bad can be said about them. Anyone who attempts to do so should shot. And then violated with some sort of blunt foreign object. Just don't go there. Really.

Albanians?

-there are the 99 names of Allah, and that is 99,000 too few words that are needed to say all of the good things that need to be said about them. Darling. Just darling. Beyond reproach."

-END EXCERPT

november1981 continues(ED.):

Fellow Jihadwatchers-

you can see clearly the insidiousness of the forces that are arrayed against us.

The defense of The Free World rest squarely upon the shoulders of The Serbs and The Jews-Punch it Baby!

Hold fast

Be strong

KEEP HOPE ALIVE!

November 1981
I salute you! A wonderful & hilarious expose of Prejudice against 2 small,plucky nations who dared to spit in the eye of the 'Big Boys.'
One of the things I do is design & make handbags.
As American Jewess would be outraged if my 'pro Serb Pagan fingers embroidered Star of David,I shall devote myself to next creation which will
be 'Wings of Serbia' tastefully done as a beaded
eagle in their national colours...

november1981,

Thanks for the excellent and hilarious parody!

BTW... I saw Christiane Amanpour saying on CNN (therefore it MUST be true!) that the World Trade Center was actually taken down by Mossad agents working for Milosevic (who was secretly a Golem created by Kabbalistic Rabbis). All the Jewish employees in the WTC were warned not to go to work that day and were actually hiding in Belgrade. During the 911 operation, Serbian secret police were inserted into the rubble of the World Trade Center to rape and murder any survivors. Then the CIA (which is a department of Shin Bet) used a hologram of Osama Bin Laden to take credit. You see, Osama actually died back in 1987 and was replaced by a Mizrahi Jew who's job is give the Religion of Peace a bad name.

November 1981

Your committee did great work. It's every bit as informative as Morgaan's copulous posts above - you deserve to be richly funded. Incidentally, anybody else wondered how Sarajevo Rose was the source of her story about 200m Jews being evacuated from Cadiz (i.e. Spain) by Ottoman galleys, while the Cordoba Protocols were the source of info on anti-Semitism among the Serbs? I for one would have thought it'd have been the other way around.

Oops... I meant 'copious'

Infidel Pride,

I like the word "copulous" and think we can come up with an appropriate definition or two.

HI all

I am an Indian and Hindu and I fully back any measure that the Serbs take to preserve themsleves, and their culture. not doing anything would amount to their extinction, just as the Hindus and Buddhists were exterminated in Afghanistha, Pakisthan, Bangladesh and other countries that Islam conquered.....
Dear Serbs do not expect certain americans like Morganne and American jews to understand the pain you were in, The Islamic benevolence did'nt yet touch the americans nor the western europeans, that they could feel your pain......
Morgane, and American Jews where was US and the cvilized protocol of its allies when their was a systematic extermnination of the Hindus in the Bangladesh.....
US acted as a spectator often supporting the Pakisthan with arms and ammunition, in carry out this terrible genocide and American Jews, the rape that was rampant against the Bangladeshi Hindus were as high as 2,00,000...
Even India took the effort to stop this genocide by, the US sent a US aircraft carrier into Bay of Bengal to stop India from Entering Bangladesh(then East Pakisthan) , the US actions amounts to abetting of Genocide, then it was Russia who sent its aircraft carrier, to check any American misadventure, which allowed India to halt the genocide and as a result the Birth of Banghladesh....
So it was Russia which helped in preventing the Genocide in an indirect manner and not the US(which infact abetted genocide by sending an aircraft carrier to defend Pakisthan Interest at that time)........
So you Morgane you son has to be shameful for working for such a navy which was on an expedition of overseeing the successful genocide.....

I am with the Serbs, and war is a crime and many Hindus are behind you I'll pray for the well being of Serbs....

Well I'll be, Don Feder should come and look at this Article and the Comments because his words from the Article Below are becoming a bit Prophetic.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=25888

The Most pertinent quote is the Following:

"Well, my friends, we truly are all in this together – Jews and Catholics, Lebanese Christians and Hindus, Orthodox Serbs, and Indonesian Christians. Until we begin to understand that, we have no hope of countering the global jihad. When Zionists start caring about the fate of Serbs in Kosovo, when Hindus support Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria (designated the West Bank), when Serbs stand up for Indian Kashmir, then we will begin making progress."

Guess this means that the Fight against Global Jihad is starting to show a real glimmer of hope.

rnath_verma, great post, so true, so true. I'm at the moment visiting your beautiful country - north Delhi to be precise visiting a friend. She's studying at Nehru university - A great country with priceless memories to treasure. Sorry about the cricket, mind.

WAH1

Enjoy your stay in India along with you friend.
If you find time, visit Hampi, the capital of Vijayanagara, the last Hindu empire(a metropolis of 15th century larger than ROME and London, at that time) in the state of Karnataka. The Muslim states formed an alliance to defeat Vijayanagara, and succeeded in doing so.
The loot and destruction after the war was so horrible, that it earned the name of deserted city, never to be populated again till this day...

The ruins of the city stand so majestically narrating the sad story, and the architecture and sculptures that survived the destruction, really my eyes turned wet when I visited the first time, thinking how brutual would it have been...

If the Muslims would have possessed fire power, just as they destroyed Bamyian Buddhas, even the survivig ruins would not have been left...
By seeing the ruins you would be able to guess the level of culture, art, and achitecture that we Hindus were able to acheive, when we were ruling ourselves, our land...
Under the muslims, there was uttlerly no acheivement, all our progress in art, literature,science came to a grinding halt the relative peace that Vijayanagar empire brought for 2 centuries, we did achieve significant things....

People like Morgan and american Jews should be drafted with an iternary of such places to bring them to their senses of what is at stake....

I hope that serbia will take back what is actually theirs when the opportunity comes by, muslims are very treacherous, only their absence could benefit a nation, China and its ideology is perfect to face the Islamic onslaught....
Democracies will take the toll of destruction until people do not recognize and categorize Islam as imperialism..