This is very encouraging news. 100,000 in Karachi and 500,000 Turks. I have long called for peaceful Muslims to stand up to the jihadists. They didn't do it after 9/11, or 7/7, or multitudinous other atrocities committed in the name of Islam. But that they are doing it now to resist the Islamization of Turkey and Pakistan is all to the good.
"Turkey, Pakistan public oppose bigger Islam role," by David R. Sands in the Washington Times, with thanks to all who sent this in:
Turkey and Pakistan, two influential Muslim states, have seen massive public demonstrations in recent days in which huge crowds protested that Islam was playing too big a role in public affairs.In Karachi, Pakistan's largest city, an estimated 100,000 people took to the streets Sunday to protest plans by an influential mosque to run a "Taliban-style" anti-vice campaign in the capital city of Islamabad.
A day earlier, some 500,000 Turks staged a rally in Ankara urging Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a former Islamist and head of the moderate Muslim ruling party, not to run for president, traditionally a secular and nonpartisan post.
The twin rallies come at a time of intense debate over the ability of moderate Muslims across the Islamic world to challenge more radical, anti-Western voices. The Bush administration has made a major push in its public diplomacy to encourage moderate Muslim voices across the greater Middle East.
Pakistan's Daily Times (thanks to Morgaan Sinclair) has picked up Sands' story without attribution. And here is an original story from Pakistan's Dawn (thanks to Sr. Soph).
Encouraging.
But will it be enough?
Of course, if we protested that Islam was playing too big a role in public affairs here in the United States, we would be labeled as hate mongers and racists by the media...
Cheers,
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com
I know what you mean km, but perhaps above and beyond the deomos there may be millions more who are looking for someone to lead them out of the 7th centry - got any spare time Robert?
OK, is it me, or am I just imagining that the original story doesn't mention the large numbers of protesters, and there is only a pic of a few people.
there are many who want to live in the present modern world, but many are blind like naseems here, to think there ever could be a mild sharia law. l told her earlier that there is no law against sharia law in her country, and if some individual did not wan to follow sharia law it was no business of hers. but that is a sticking point with pious muslims, they want all to follow their misery. they cannot stand to see their people eventually leave islam as surely they will do with freedom.
It's encouraging to know that there are some enlightened people in the Muslim world, but I'll bet the Imans counter these demonstration with crowds far larger than anything the moderates were able to muster.
Let's wait and see.
...perhaps some Muslims do want to emerge from the 7th century........such protests give hope....
What the imams are afraid of is that people, given a choice between living Western lives full of prosperity and personal freedom, versus living proper Islamic lives in a climate of personal oppression and poverty, will choose to reject Islam
Fortunately, these protests are happening. I was really shocked that Spencer didn't try to downplay them (like he did when a group of Muslim women published a book on non-violence in Islam, he totally bashed them off-hand and said that simply because potentially different verses exist [they didn't discuss the topics he wanted them to] then Islam is just as violent as ever). I do like the Bush tag at the bottom of the article, like he (or anybody else around here for that matter) had anything to do with these protests. Also, I can't help but notice the constant references to the "imams" comments about them forcing people into these things. Just like Ibn Warraq, you guys are putting the old historical Christian/Catholic framework and trying to apply its histories/ideologies/etc. to Islam, and by doing so you will get it wrong every time (you guys keep thinking imams = clergy, which one day hopefully you will realize that this isn't true).
Just doing some thinking...
(PS. before this gets out of hand, these people are NOT protesting AGAINST Islam like the commentors argue, but rather are fighting against radicals within their religion.)
A good start, especially considering that Pakistan's raison d'etre has been Islam.
The protests have to go further, and one day Islam will hopefully be disbanded. Disbanding of Islam can only be the logical conclusion if these protest rallies mean to progress. That is because, Islam does not encourage any middle path like other religions. Islam only encourages the "all or none" binary behaviour. So if the anti fundamentalist rallies mean to become a continuing phenomenon, then "actual" "Muhammed - made" Islam has to come to an end one day.
Is Allah watching ?
"This is very encouraging news. 100,000 in Karachi and 500,000 Turks."
So the secular people of these countries have stepped up. We have to realize that just like in this country many are not practicing Christians thus the same it is muslim countries. Our focus should not be on the faithful but instead on those that have not been to a mosque in months or years. That seems to go counter to what our strategy has been which is to reach out to muslim leaders. We should reach out to secular leaders living in muslim lands. They are the ones who matter and who could do the most damage to the ummah from within.
Are these people really muslims? Who is to say but I can say one thing if they are they are not hard core. These are the people we must help not the dam cleric who claims he is moderate.
Enough with the clerics....
They are the problem not the solution.
I've always been critical of so called moderate Muslims for not standing up to the fundamentalists, so I'm very pleased to see these protests. I hope more of them stand up, because you can be assured the Islamists will not desist and indeed will attack anyone opposing them. The secular Muslims in Muslim countries will have their mettle tested, so they better be strong.
God bless and keep them.
An American
Once again you make too much of these protest. Yes they were large but they are not the majority (I suspect Turkey is in better shape then Pakistan).
There is a reason the Turkey protest happened because the secular types are afraid of "Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a former Islamist and head of the moderate Muslim ruling party, not to run for president, traditionally a secular and nonpartisan post.". They should not fear him running if the majority of the people are like them. The truth is he looks like the winner as of now if elections are held today. He is not very secular and is for increasing the influence of Islam within Turkey. That is not good and I can understand the fear. As for the protest in Pakistan it is clear why they are protesting. They know it is now or never because I have bad feeling a Taliban style government is going to be their next government if they don't do something now. Chances are it is already too late.
Yes they are protesting Islam. They are protesting political Islam which is so interwoven within Islam it is hard to seperate the religion from it. Also it would be helpful for you to stop breaking out the catholic references. I am not catholic. Nobody is applying any frame work to these stories except the framework that muslims themselves say is the framework.
Why is that so hard to understand? It appears you need to do some more reading and study and less free thinking...and perhaps study a few books on logic.
As far as Karachi goes, I would love to know how many of those demonstrators were Hindu. After the 9/11 terror attacks, among the few places in Pakiland where people demonstrated against this kind of islamic terror were in areas like the Sindh, in cities like Hyperabad. Karachi, as you may already know, still has a substantial Hindu minority being brutalized and treated as 3rd class citizens by our Paki friends. Also, how many of them were ethnic Sindhis or Balochis, who if muslim are often no more muslim then for example, George Soros is Jewish or John Kerry is Catholic. They are often essentially agnostic, or Sufis living in a place where the Sufi Islam experiment actually worked in tempering and defanging, Islam since the native cultues of Sindh and Baloch were stronger than the invading Islamic ones. Furthermore, their atrocious treatment under the Paki leadership and the ISI, often as purely and heinously "muslim" as one can get, shouldn't be overlooked as a substantial factor as well. The Pakis often target civilian Baloch, Sindhis both Hindu and liberal Muslim, who are often the fiercest opponents of the Taliban and other islamists, with U.S. military aid they are supposed to be using to fight the Taliban.
We could likely encourage much more demonstrations like this in Sindh, Balochistan and Northern Areas if we treat these areas like Darfur in Sudan. That is, encourage a U.S. backed international force to take these areas, which the Pakis have no legitimate right to anyhow, and establish militarized zones where local inhabitants can feel safe. Just like in Darfur, there is likely to be huge numbers of civilians who want to come out in greater numbers against violent jihad, but can't due to their militantly islamic overlords. In Darfur, that's the case with the Janjaweed and in Sindh/Balochistan/PoK, it's the same with the Paki ISI, basically the same thing.
Same for Turkey, btw. My guess is that of those demostrators, a large number of them were members of Turkey's puny minority of Christians still left after all the genocides, massacres and pogroms. A great start for the West to truly fight the war on violent jihad seriously is to relaize their obligation to protect, by all means necessary, these treatened minorities.
As far as Karachi goes, I would love to know how many of those demonstrators were Hindu. After the 9/11 terror attacks, among the few places in Pakiland where people demonstrated against this kind of islamic terror were in areas like the Sindh, in cities like Hyperabad. Karachi, as you may already know, still has a substantial Hindu minority being brutalized and treated as 3rd class citizens by our Paki friends. Also, how many of them were ethnic Sindhis or Balochis, who if muslim are often no more muslim then for example, George Soros is Jewish or John Kerry is Catholic. They are often essentially agnostic, or Sufis living in a place where the Sufi Islam experiment actually worked in tempering and defanging, Islam since the native cultues of Sindh and Baloch were stronger than the invading Islamic ones. Furthermore, their atrocious treatment under the Paki leadership and the ISI, often as purely and heinously "muslim" as one can get, shouldn't be overlooked as a substantial factor as well. The Pakis often target civilian Baloch, Sindhis both Hindu and liberal Muslim, who are often the fiercest opponents of the Taliban and other islamists, with U.S. military aid they are supposed to be using to fight the Taliban.
We could likely encourage much more demonstrations like this in Sindh, Balochistan and Northern Areas if we treat these areas like Darfur in Sudan. That is, encourage a U.S. backed international force to take these areas, which the Pakis have no legitimate right to anyhow, and establish militarized zones where local inhabitants can feel safe. Just like in Darfur, there is likely to be huge numbers of civilians who want to come out in greater numbers against violent jihad, but can't due to their militantly islamic overlords. In Darfur, that's the case with the Janjaweed and in Sindh/Balochistan/PoK, it's the same with the Paki ISI, basically the same thing.
Same for Turkey, btw. My guess is that of those demostrators, a large number of them were members of Turkey's puny minority of Christians still left after all the genocides, massacres and pogroms. A great start for the West to truly fight the war on violent jihad seriously is to relaize their obligation to protect, by all means necessary, these treatened minorities.
maxwell46&2
I uspect that many of the Turks demonstrating against Islamism are Alevis. The Alevis are externally Shia Muslims (although Turkey officially claims to be 98% Sunni) but are in many ways a carryover of the ancient religions of Anatolia. They have a natural reason to fear a Sunni based religious government.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi
http://www.alevibektasi.org/xalevis1.htm
I suspect a lot of posters won't comment on this positive development, but I sure will. The opposition in Pakistan, and I mean the true opposition, needs every bit of support. The supremists Punjabi (aka wannabe Arabs) ruling class uses Islam to stamp down on inferior peoples in Pakistan. Someone in India and America should pay attention.
To Provoslavni,
The info about Alevis was surprising. I guess you can never trust the middle east nations to accurately report their demographics.
It seems from the links that the Alevis are at odds with Turk Islamists not simply because of the Sunni-Shia split but also because they are trying to observe cultures and traditions that are not necessarily related to islam, which clashes obviously with purist "No-Culture-But-Islam" msulims. Particularly their Anatolian Christian heritage. This explains many of the conflicts in Algeria (Arab-Amazigh), Sudan(Janjaweed-Darfurians) and Pakistan, (Pakis-pretty much everyone else). It wouldn't be as heartening if the only reason the Alevis are at odds with Turk jihadists is the Sunni-Shia split, after all, what would then stop them from turning to a Shia islamist state like Iran for guidance. But as in other places, it seems the issues Alevis have with Turk militnats are also over their desire to have their own unique heritage outside of the islamic one. These types of inter-Islamic conflicts, often intertwined with Arab-nonArab conflicts, are by far the most beneficial and imprortant ones for the West to play upon and exploit.
How long will it be before these protesters are declared "murtad" and pressured into silence by the Ummah?
They appear to be attacking "Turkish identity".
The Ottomans turning away from secularist Ataturk and back to pedophile Mohammad.
These are signs of the frightened rising up, and I fear, too late.
The Islamists will likely have the government before 2010.
Then the EU will have them, with no borders.
The Sunni's in Anbar Province are also beginning to stand up to Al Qaeda and forming militants to go after them because they do not like living under Sharia law. Just another story under reported by the MSM.
An American,
Please don't try and educate us with your "muslim analysis" for you fail miserably.
Most posters here know more about Islam than you will ever be capable of. I know you can't get your head around that one but hey, the day you do, will be your day of liberation. Good Luck!
"(you guys keep thinking imams = clergy, which one day hopefully you will realize that this isn't true)."
Posted by: An American
...I was thinking Imams=terrorist leaders...
I was pleased to see all the CAIR support by American Muslims.
Muslim Protestors in Washington. ZERO
Muslim Protestors at the Pakistani and Turkish consulates. NONE
Muslim Protestors on televison. NON EXISTANT
Always enjoy these American Muslims claiming to be moderate.....and junior Ellison of Congress enters not one word in the record supporting MODERATE ISLAM.
These may have been anti-Sharia demonstrations but how many of the Muslims who participated in such demonstrations would extend equal rights and protections to non-Muslims in their country (if there are any left, that is).
It's like the student demonstrations in Iran. Everyone said: see, the Iranians don't like what their government is doing, they oppose Ahmadinejad, etcetera, etcetera.
It means nothing of the kind. They are not looking for equal rights for all. They just want the Islamic courts out of THEIR bedrooms.
Malaysia calls itself moderate and the US sees nothing there that violates a person's right to religious freedom, but the facts say otherwise.
The day Muslims protest Sharia law being imposed on non-Muslims or protest the destruction of a church or temple or protest the imposition of the jizya or demand the right to leave Islam without suffering criminal penalties or a death sentence is a day we'll know there are moderate Muslims in the world. What happened in Turkey and Pakistan is merely a show.
An American, muslim appologists, why the hell dont you practice your lovely religion of pieces in some muslim country, pick your cesspoolstan, otherwise you know nothing of islam. you cherry pick the parts you deem fine, and ignore the nasties.. well a pious muslim becomes a terrorist when they fully become a muslim
"The Sunni's in Anbar Province are also beginning to stand up to Al Qaeda and forming militants to go after them because they do not like living under Sharia law."
Posted by: Bonniea
These "Sunnis" are probably mostly from the Tikriti tribe (Saddam's tribe) and are secular Ba'athists. Today, the ONLY two non-Islamist political forces in Iraq are the Chaldeo-Assyrian Christians who are being exterminated and the Tikriti Ba'athists who have been legally suppressed by the US occupation forces.
Just like in Serbian Kosovo, the US military in Iraq is clearly on the side of Islam.
Sharia is as bad or worse than apartheid and it is spreading via Saudi money, Jihadi violence and the inability of 'moderate' muslims to successfully argue against the theological demands imposed by the Koran and Hadith. We can't wait for an islamic reform movement to stop this menace, we need to force our governments to start imposing sanctions immediately.
Did we wait for a South African reform movement to amend Apartheid before imposing sanctions? no.
The argument for delaying sanctions then was that South Africa was an ally against the Soviets. There is no such argument against imposing sanctions states that have introduced Sharia law.
All those who actively or inactively worked to end apartheid in South Africa, should now work just as hard to end Sharia in places like Malaysia and other countries.
Get involved, talk to your political representatives, spread the word. Apartheid only ended because western political opinion forced the politicians hands to impose sanctions and the South African govt realised it wouldn't survive and changed.
It may take a while, but start local and think global. Write to newspapers, ring in to talk-back radio, discuss it with your friends, family and neighbours, start bothering your political representatives. We can start forcing a change by putting pressure on countries one by one. I'd pick Malaysia first because it is so dependent on exports.
Unfortunately I don't (yet) see evidence that this represents a groundswell of support for secularism, though in Pakistan it is hopeful. In Turkey this is likely a government-organized dog and pony show to support their bid to join the EU. In Pakistan the government, again, is rallying its supporters against a coup.
When we start seeing million man marches organized by muslims in the West, opposing sharia and extremists (who must be named!), then I'll believe that the tide is turning against extremism in Islam.
Nevertheless, these demonstrations are going in the right direction, and I applaud them. It may be ironic if the developing countries within Dar Al-Islam toss out the extremists before the Democratic, secular, tolerant west does.
........taqqiyya..........
In Karachi, Pakistan's largest city, an estimated 100,000 people took to the streets Sunday to protest plans by an influential mosque to run a....
A day earlier, some 500,000 Turks staged a rally in Ankara .... (*JW
Lets look at the simple facts : 500,000 turks staged a rally in Ankara (population 4.3M)means one in 8th person was at the demo. Don't believe that for a minute, because that would have showed up on the Fox news and it did not! Someone is pulling the wool!
Similarly, the number 100,000 people in Karachi is taken from a Pakistani news paper called The Dawn, which also claimed there are 12 Million Muslims living here (US). I don't buy the figueres. I guess there were some demos, perhaps 1000 people in Karach and couple of thous in Turkie.
Half-mill people protesting would be a big news especially on the Crappy News Network.
Part of the problem is that Erdogan--no matter your opinions of him--is helping to democratize Turkey. The claims that only minorities went to the protests in Ankara is silly. A lot of those who went are part of the Kemalist power structure that has been in place since the early 20th century. They benefit greatly from the amount of government control they have (in the military and the presidency) so they obviously don't want to see democratic change--and Erdogan clearly is democratic change. Whether or not you want to believe he will promote liberal institutions is another matter.
“Just doing some thinking...” (An American)
By God, thinking? What an original idea! You put us all to shame.
why people on this site act as if kemal attaturks so called secular goverment was better then erdogans islamic goverment when under attaturk millions of christians where massacred by kemal attaturk?
greeks assyrians armenians have always been massacred and oppressed under turks it doest matter who was in power attaturk edorgan if they where secular or islamic goverments they all the same kill christians and still stop agia sophia from being a church again.
I agree with MusHuntCowboy that protest number estimations are notoriously unreliable and susceptible to the agenda of whomever is (over/under) reporting them.
Having said that... ANY people on the streets protesting against implementation of sharia and extreme Islam is a positive development.
As to the composition of said protesters, I am more interested in the age range than of predominate religion, tribe, ethnicity etc.
If the protesters are young then there is more hope. On the other hand, we are constantly being told that the young in Iran despise the Mullocracy State and are resisting in increasing strength. But it never seems to amount to much as the Mullocracy marches ahead towards its dream unity of nuclear bombs and Islamic supremacy.