The bishops, unfortunately, are not the only ones "taken in by the clever propaganda" of the Iranian regime. "Fury as bishops back Iran," by Jonathan Petre, Nicole Martin and Brendan Carlin in the Telegraph, with thanks to JE:
The Roman Catholic bishop who oversees the armed forces has provoked fury by praising the Iranian leadership for its "forgiveness" and "act of mercy" in freeing the 15 British sailors and marines last week.The Bishop of the Forces, the Rt Rev Tom Burns, said that the religious beliefs of the Iranians had played a large part in their decision to release the hostages after holding them for more than two weeks.
His words were echoed by a leading Anglican figure, the Right Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, who said Iran had acted within the "moral and spiritual tradition of their country" and contrasted this with Britain's "free-floating attitudes".
Bishop Burns, who ministers to the 40,000 Catholics and their families who are members of the armed forces, said the decision to release the captives had demonstrated "faith in a forgiving God".
But his comments were angrily denounced yesterday by politicians and soldiers as "naive" and "wishful thinking" for failing to recognise the illegality of Teheran's actions.
In a statement welcoming the hostages' release on Thursday, Bishop Burns said President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had spoken of forgiveness, and appealed to the religious traditions of Islam. This might seem puzzling, said the bishop. But it had to be seen in the context of the Iranians' belief that Britain had violated their territorial waters.
"So, if that is the case they are putting forward, then by their own standards, the standards enshrined in their religion, they have then chosen to put their faith into action to resolve the situation," said the bishop.
"Faith in a forgiving God has been exemplified in action by their good deeds. They are offering to release the sailors and marines, not just as the result of diplomacy, but also as an act of mercy in accordance with their religion."...
He added that the Iranian's Islamic faith shared many religious values with Christianity. "Over the past two weeks, there has been a unity of purpose between Britain and Iran, whereby everyone has sought justice and forgiveness where that is appropriate," he said.
"Repentance has a common root in each religion. We all profess to hold a faith that comes from Abraham - the Father of all Nations.
"All nations form one community: we come from the one God who created us, and we will return to the one God as our common destiny."
Bishop Nazir-Ali said the Iranians had scored "something of a coup" by appealing to their religious traditions in freeing the hostages. In sharp contrast, Britain had failed to refer to any higher values.
"I saw on the one hand what Iran was doing, and what the president [of Iran] said had much to do with the moral and spiritual tradition of their country," he said.
"The president talked about the religious background to the release, with reference to the Prophet's birthday and the passing over of Christ. What struck me was that if there were any values on the British side they were free-floating and not anchored in a spiritual and moral tradition."
He added, however, that he believed that both sides were acting from mixed motives, and challenged the Iranians to demonstrate similar tolerance in their treatment of religious minorities.
Bishop Burns came under fierce attack yesterday for his more trusting remarks. Liam Fox, the shadow defence secretary, called him "naive in the extreme".
He said it appeared that the bishop had been "taken in by the clever propaganda" of the Iranian regime. "This is a regime that illegally captured our servicemen and held them in quite dreadful conditions for some time. The true moral worth of a leader is in his or her deeds, not words."
Dr Fox added: "I think that those who talk in religious terms while practising abduction should be judged on what they have done, not what they have said. To do otherwise is naive in the extreme."
Col Tim Collins, who led the 1st Battalion Royal Irish Regiment in the 2003 invasion of Iraq, said: "It's a close call as to which organisation is in the deepest moral crisis - the Church or the Ministry of Defence."
Col Edward Armitstead, a former Coldstream Guards officer who is a member of the Church of England's General Synod, said: "You have to ask, why did the Iranians capture our people in the first place? The bishop is naive and guilty of wishful thinking."
Indeed.
Please, God, let the sixties generation go to their eternal reward... FAST. And bring the Church some leaders more suited to the challenges at hand. Amen.
""challenged the Iranians to demonstrate similar tolerance in their treatment of religious minorities.""
...bwahahahahahaha....there is no religious tolerance of other religions in Iran....evidently this fool knows little of Islam or of Iran.....
And the Catholic Church wonders why people are leaving. Someone posted a link the other day where a German Church was taking donations to fund a mosque.
Clueless idiot. In all probability we will find out that the price of freedom for the 15 British sailors was the release of a senior Iranian official or two from US detention in Iraq.
Wasn't Nazir-Ali formerly a good guy?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/014543.php
What the heck is going on in the United Kingdom of Dhimmitude?
Is the UK competing with France on who falls first?
OK, let's take the bishop's "argument" to its logical extreme. The West could annihilate the entire Muslim world in a matter of minutes. The fact that we don't makes us morally superior to Muslims. Q.E.D.
....Palm slapping forehead....
There is and always has been a disconnect between the clergy in the West, with all of their creature comforts and luxury of physical safety, and the believers in other parts of the world where many suffer imprisonment, torture and death for their religious convictions. This bishop is a prime example of that difference.
Did Dinnerjacket mention anything about Pessach? BBC reported that he did. But no other news-agency did. Here is a take on that:
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/04/09/who-said-what-how-much-bullshit-is-al-bebeceera-feeding-us/
The Bishops might as well remove the red cross from St George's flag and just fly a white flag.
Sugary goo vomiting forth.
So now you praise kidnappers for releasing their victims?
And thieves for returning their loot?
Sounds like an Heironymous Bosch parable of folly is playing in the cleric's skull.
The Ship of Fools.
is Britain sunk?
The phrase "Abrahamic faith" is meant to delegitimize Christianity and Judaism by make false equivalence between them and Islam. How can we stop ignorant Christians from repeating this Islamic lie?
To all British posters who still attend a Catholic and Anglican church: Leave now. Join an evangelical church. These established churches are lukewarm. The clergy is only interested in keeping the status quo. They will sell you out if and when Sharia officially is the law of the land. And God will spit them out as he threatens to do with the church in Laodicea. As far as I can see, the evangelical churches are the only ones that speak out agains Islam. They are hot. Not cold, and definitely not lukewarm.
The phrase "Abrahamic faith" is meant to delegitimize Christianity and Judaism by make false equivalence between them and Islam.
Exactly, moral-equivalance Christians like this bishop should read the Bible to know that Ishmael was an unwanted little bastard who misteated Isaac and was predicted to be “A wild donkey of a man, hand will be against everyone, and everyone's hand against him."
*Mistreated Isaac
I don't know which is more worrying: his total dhimmitude, or his total ignorance of islam.
What on earth would the Methodist preacher John Wesley make of these fools - the same John Wesley who described Islam thus:
"Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it...have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind." – John Wesley, The Doctrine of Original Sin, Works (1841), ix. 205
Amen Paolo. We need new blood to rise in the ranks of the Church, and the faithful to become more faithful. The people need to take their Church back! And then their country should follow.
And how we would like amodern day Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, who described Islam thus in 1950:
"Today (1950), the hatred of the Moslem countries against the West is becoming hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return and, with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world Power." - Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, 1950
It seems that 57 years later, the statesmen of the West still haven't taken it into account - worse still, they describe Islam as a 'religion of peace' - completely ignoring 14 centuries of bloodshed, conquest, piracy and enslavement - all carried out in the name of Mohammed. And now we have to contend with moral equivalence buffoons from the clergy, who obviously seem to be ignorant of the fact that the mullahs in Iran hanged a 16 year old girl for having a sharp tongue, and beat a 14 year old boy to death for breaking his Ramadan fast. What gives these gullible fools or any Western leaders the idea that they think they know more about Islam than Bishop Fulton J. Sheen? And this is the grim future that awaits our descendants in the Europe of 100 or so years from now, thanks to the PC brigade and the hippies of the 1960s.
How prophetic Bishop Fulton J. Sheen was, and he lived until 9th December 1979 - enabling him to see Ayatollah Khomeini come to power in Iran, take American hostages, witness Carters effeminate and spineless response to it, and the encouragement it gave to the Jihadis, who believed the US and the West was a politically correct paper tiger and ripe for destruction, then start the ball rolling for the Third Great Jihad - the very thing he had warned us about almost six decades ago, which is with us to this day and growing in intensity.
"Is the UK competing with France on who falls first?" -- Elric66
He's back!
His words were echoed by a leading Anglican figure, the Right Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, the Bishop of Rochester, who said Iran had acted within the "moral and spiritual tradition of their country" and contrasted this with Britain's "free-floating attitudes".”
This is incredible. Neither Britain nor any other civilized nation would have kidnapped non-enemy combatants in neutral waters in the first place. That is the real test of the “moral and spiritual tradition” of a country. This is moral inversion at its worst. And Nazir-Ali has made fairly robust anti-Islamic statements in the past!
Gee, I thought there were no more catholics in england. This bishop is a fool.
People wonder why we Americans pile criticism by the truck load on the British government and its leadership?
Not that our government (US) is any better at this, I feel that two of my favorite football teams are the worst teams in the league.
These two teams need new coaching staffs, now.
Doncha just love sports analogies?
But isn't there something else happening here?
The christian church, is basically envious of the power the Muslims have, when you get down to it. The power to kill and enforce their religion. They miss the power they used to have, and want it back. Just like the left can't really bring themselves to condemn Stalin, in any meaningful way, or the Soviet Empire of corruption. They really, deep down want the same power themselves, as long as it comes with the soothing balm of "feel good" rhetoric.
That was Hitler's big political mistake, not masking the Socialist in National Socialist, into a bright shining lie, giving the church and politicians a cloak within which to hide the truth.
To repeat, Christianity is not the answer, neither is any religion. We need to make it clear, we value tolerance, individual freedom and freedom of expression about anything; we should also make it clear that we will not tolerate any deviation from these principles. If you don't like that, leave.
Priest don't shag kids for years undetected because of an atmosphere of frank and open discussion. It's individual freedom that's important, above all else.
To be fair to the bishop, now and again he has been a bit more outspoken about Islam - at least by the standards of the Church of England. Perhaps Easter has brought out the fluffy bunny in hum.
Muslims demand respect - but not for Christians
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/26/do2604.xml
I wonder if this Bishop is 'naive and full of wishful thinking' or if he might possibly be a mole.
I'd love to hear what those who live close to the situation, ie. Britons, have to say about this. do you think it's possible we are hearing from an infiltrator, a fake Christian here?
But isn't that the usual christian position?
Lots of kumbaya, and love your enemy?
But isn't that the usual christian position?
Lots of kumbaya, and love your enemy?
"Is the UK competing with France on who falls first?" -- Elric66
He's back!
Posted by: JFGR
Enough of the vitriol! We're all in this together.
Two words: Useful. Idiots.
All is not entirely lost, though. After all, Patrick Sookhdeo of the Barnabas Fund is ALSO a Bishop in the Anglican Church. And Dr Mark Durie of Australia is an Anglican - no flies on him with regard to Islam, he defended those two pastors who were accused of vilifying Islam.
On a brighter note: I just wrote a six-page essay on Islam - rather like a short version of the 'Islam 101' piece available on this site, except that I wrote it without having READ 'Islam 101'. I could not, however, have written it without the resources available at this site, nor without having read Robert's wonderful 'The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades', with its invaluable scholarly references. THANK YOU, JIHAD WATCH.
It was published in our parish magazine. Our priest approved it. He is a busy man - he has not yet himself read the Qur'an, 'only bits', he told me - but he senses the cognitive disconnect between smiling Muslims at interfaith dialogues speaking of peace and love, and the bloody fruits of Islam on the ground at 9/11 etc. I may have done him a service by condensing relevant information - including the theological - into a small space. He plans to have coffee with me and we will discuss the subject of Islam.
Our church is large-ish for a suburban Anglican church - 200+ adults. One of the parishioners knows all about Muslim persecution of non-Muslims - he read my piece then sent me a long approving email. I will be meeting with him as well.
In February our diocesan paper published a letter from a Useful Idiot (i.e, a 'friend of Sabeel') repeating the usual nonsense about how Muslim and Christian Palestinians are all happy families together, 'one Palestinian body', only suffering because of the nasty JEWS. I sent them a letter pointing out why I distrusted these protestations: A. most Palestinians are Muslim B. Most voted for Hamas C. Hamas Charter...!!! D. History and texts of Islam are full of abuse of Christians and Jews, in 'Palestine' like everywhere else. I cited Bat Ye'or 'The Dhimmi' and Spencer, 'Myth of Islamic Tolerance'. I pointed out that victims of abuse live in denial, and that Islam permits deception of Unbelievers. And - this month they published the letter! So: I don't know how many will read it, but at least - those who do just MIGHT look up Spencer and Bat Ye'or and learn something.
After said diocesan paper came out with my letter in it, I had a phonecall from the parish priest of another suburban church in my home city - he has read Spencer and was delighted to find someone else who was talking sense.
So: most of us are not Oriana Fallaci. Most of us are not in Robert's or Hugh's league. But we can write Letters to the Editor, and those of us who inhabit churches, or reading groups, or PTAs or sporting clubs or whatever, can share our information. And so...ever read Gladwells' book 'Tipping Point'? The Islamic propagandists have been pushing opinion one way. No reason why there can't be a counter-push - with TRUTH.
""Is the UK competing with France on who falls first?" -- Elric66
He's back!
Posted by: JFGR
Enough of the vitriol! We're all in this together. "
Agreed,but "let him who casts the first stone . . ."
Ian:
But isn't there something else happening here?
The christian church, is basically envious of the power the Muslims have, when you get down to it. The power to kill and enforce their religion.
No it is not. I know the Anglican church and it is wishy-washy. It is more characterised by doubt than faith. But for all its faults, it has never wanted to enforce its will or kill others.
And how could it? Killing breaks the 6th commandment - to murder. And nowhere did Jesus command his followers to enforce his commands or kill others. In fact he respected other humans will to decide not to follow him and he liad into John and James when they were calling for the destruction of a town that had rejected him.
They miss the power they used to have, and want it back. Just like the left can't really bring themselves to condemn Stalin, in any meaningful way, or the Soviet Empire of corruption. They really, deep down want the same power themselves, as long as it comes with the soothing balm of "feel good" rhetoric.
But the power your talking about is temporal power and Jesus discarded that as no use.
To repeat, Christianity is not the answer, neither is any religion.
That is up to individauls here in JW/DW and in Western countries as to what they believe.
We need to make it clear, we value tolerance, individual freedom and freedom of expression about anything; we should also make it clear that we will not tolerate any deviation from these principles. If you don't like that, leave.
But we should not be tolerant of intolerance.
And even if we leave "tolerant Muslims" in our midst, what are you going to do 50 years later when their children and children's children are intolerant? Because make no mistake:
Muhammad was intolerant
The Quran, the Hadith and the Sira are intolerant
Those books are sheer poison
I see no option but to remove Muslims. Their presence is like tolerating Cancer.
Please, God, let the sixties generation go to their eternal reward... FAST. And bring the Church some leaders more suited to the challenges at hand. Amen.
Ditto.
Yes, all the things the Pope said, I could not believe my ears! Saying, "I seen nothing good come out of Iraq!" I am wondering was this Pope ever alone with these people?
Pope Benedict went from reciting something from old history that reflected the islam religion and he was hated for it! Now he has done a 180% turn about! He condemned the Afghanistan war and alot of things I would of never ever thought or dreamnt a Pope to do! He did this on Easter too! That was the message!