Germany: Muslim council demands church privileges for Islam

the german people (or society) seem to have a penchant for extreme idealologies. from 1920's/30's communism, marxism, nazism, occultism, to contemporary extreme liberalism, pacifism and now this imported islam. why is that?

(no offence to you Allahfanculo, but maybe you could help answer this question?)

"Their mosques are owned by incorporated societies with no especial religious status under German law."

.....could that be because Islam is not a "Religion"?

the german people (or society) seem to have a penchant for extreme idealologies. from 1920's/30's communism, marxism, nazism, occultism, to contemporary extreme liberalism, pacifism and now this imported islam. why is that?

(no offence to you Allahfanculo, but maybe you could help answer this question?)
Posted by: leonthepigfarmer

If I had the answer we could fix this. But it seems we were merely ahead of our time.

If only it was "just us". Then sane Germans could just leave and let the fanatics sort themselves out.

Another way you could define the problem is Winston Churchill's famous "either at your knees or at your throat" dictum.

But what to do about it..?

Sigh...

I am sorry if I really don't have the answer.

Leon, one thing I can tell you.. most of the people in Germany are sane. They're called the "silent Majority". Unfortunately they didn't do anything last time and thus they've a hard time getting their moral bearings.

The majority of East Germans were NOT communists. That's why you had so many jumping over the Wall. Instead of changing things at home.. which they eventually did.. after the Poles and the Czechs had begun to make noise against Soviet domination.

A superficial "survey" of the Germans a la Thatcher wouldn't really be helpful in solving the problem either. Merely rehashing stereotypes only provokes a defensive reaction but not one of self-reflection.

I am afraid that the PC bacillus spread from Germany somehow to the United States after the War.. and from there it infected all the West.

You can see for instance people in the United States arguing for slavery reparations on the logic that "the Jooz" got theirs.

Completely omitting the fact that Germany and the United states aren't one and the same country.

Besides a whole host of other issues that would take away from the topic at hand.

But it goes to show the faulty logic and the collective "Western Guilt" assumptions which have been made easier to put forth based on the moral depravity of the Holocaust.

See also that every cause trying to get their day in the sun uses the H-word - even when there is no equivalency of any kind.

Thus the Silent Majority in all Western countries has fallen silent - even in Israel there is a strong "guilty Left" browbeating the IDF into "fighting fair"... always concerned about "civilian casualties" - including *voluntary* and *deliberate* human shields.

So, I am afraid you could say we set the stage for political correctness but I have little hope that Germany will lead the charge back out.

This is great news for Prophecy, the last great empire is supposed to be a new Roman Europe led by some religious power, but it is a mixed one but incompatible. I was feeling guilty that we Europeans will be the total cause of this totalitarian system. But now it seems Muslims have their hand in it, a problem shared is a problem halved and if Islam and the Church join like Iron mixed with Clay it makes sense that this generation will not be totally responsible for the Godly wrath that he will make him angry, yes it's our fault but the elements of the mixing ideologies will make it a less a dishonour for history of the unmade future, but one foretold.

By all means offer them equal inclusion along with other qualifying religions. Not doing so adds yet another ridiculous excuse to the Jihadist arsenal (radicalization due to exclusion) which sadly the international community seems all too eager to swallow.

Give them full rights and then institute a hate speech prevention act (ostensibly aimed at preventing, say, 'Islamophobia') which is written broadly and calls for extremely heavy repercussions for organizations and individuals who breach its rules. Idiot 'progressives' and leftists alike will undoubtedly put their full force behind it to combat the pernicious and pervasive muslim bashing that has (supposedly) afflicted the globe. Once the bill has been passed monitor the newly legitimized mosques and when (surprisingly) most fail to live up to the standards of the bill, strike hard, deporting/fining/incarcerating the rulebreakers.

thank allahfanculo

the part "Unfortunately they didn't do anything last time and thus they've a hard time getting their moral bearings."

makes sense. when i meant communism i really referred to the turmoil of 1920s/30s.

btw what does your name mean? (wish i couldve been at the american loyalist speech)

btw what does your name mean? (wish i couldve been at the american loyalist speech)

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer

Since you ask.. LOL.. Have you heard of the Italian word: Affanculo? There was a digression on DW re. the word Affanculo and since we are all concerned with resisting the works of Satan, ie. "Alla" to visit upon our fair lands things just clicked and hence - my name!

Check this out:

http://www.affanculo.org/indexflash.html

It's in Italian but somehow it makes sense. I can't find the part where you can use the site to send an official "affanculo" to someone who deserves it.

Basically may name is an oxymoron. Since it means [in the wider sense] "Allah go to hell".

So you could ask why tell Allah to go where he already IS?

[And where he reigns supreme]

... most of the people in Germany are sane. They're called the "silent Majority".

The title "rocket scientist" is used as a synonym for genius. Let us not forget that my country, a great country, the USA, grabbed all the German rocket scientists they could in 1945.

Also, let us not forget the Russians, then running the awful pseudo-nation then called the USSR, did the same.

But, with great intelligence goes great instability. The nation of the Huns will never be ideologically stable.

However, I've noticed over my years that at any cutting edge conference table --- and I'm talking real tables, not worthless MBA mtgs --- at least 20% of the smart people will be Huns. Usually more.

I gather most of the Muslims in Germany are Turks. So how about this: Germany will grant the requested privileges to Turkish Muslims when Turkey stops preventing Christians and other non-Muslims in Turkey from building houses of worship and from proselytizing and having equal rights with Muslims. Is Islam capable of this kind of reciprocity? It's called the golden rule. Does Islam follow it? Too often quite the contrary. To paraphrase one Quran verse, "Be merciful toward each other and harsh to non-believers." It is clear that not some miniscule minority but rather many Muslims worldwide take this and similar verses to heart. So it is long past time for the Muslim world to show much more RECIPROCITY in granting equal rights to non-Muslims in majority-Muslim nations. Until that happens, we need a moratorium on Muslim immigration to this country.

well if Muslims want the same status as Christian churches let them but let them know that they are only one religion among many and do not get special privilegesjust the same tax breaks and other churches chances are they will choke on it

leonthepigfarmer asked why the Germans went in for various extreme ideologies. It had to do with the particular layer of the mind that the Germans have specialized in developing in recent centuries. And there hangs an explanatory tale:

Ancient peoples lived in myths or images, but with the appearance of the ancient Greeks, image-consciousness faded into thought. The Greeks lived in thoughts that were, however, felt as far more alive and real than we generally feel thoughts to be today. For many Greeks, thoughts seemed to be something actual in the outer world. Platonic ideas, for example, were not supposed to be mere material phenomena produced by chemical reactions in brain matter. Greeks often felt ideas as external realities integral to the natural cosmos and as alive as the natural cosmos.

After the ancient Greeks, the fading or dying process continues in consciousness, so that European humanity less and less feels the world of ideas as a self-sufficient, living reality. Thought becomes more and more "abstract," with the result that in the medieval period, for example, one finds philosophers starting to debate whether ideas are "real" or are "mere names" that group particulars. The latter philosophers, who championed "nominalism," argued that the only realities are particulars. Over time the nominalists won the debate, not because their philosophy was correct as a description of every situation, but because nominalism was how European humanity's consciousness increasingly perceived the world: as a collection of material particulars. Among the ancient Egyptians, the voices of the gods faded into image and myth. Among the ancient Greeks, myth faded into living thought. Among the Europeans, living thought faded into abstraction and an increasing sense that the world was ultimately made up of particular, material entities.

This eventually led to the Scientific Revolution, which sought more and more for absolute objectivity, which was to be attained by more and more distinguishing and separating subject and object. A byproduct of this "objectification" process was ever more awareness of the autonomy of the individual person. The individual was increasingly perceived as hermetically separate from others and from the whole world of objects. As a rule the farther back one goes in history, by contrast, the more human beings feel themselves relatively indistinguishable from the cosmos around them.

Thus the disenchantment of the world, the mentioned twilight of the gods, the slow fading of their voices and presence into image/myth, then of image into living thought, then of living thought into abstract awareness coupled to a world of material particulars -- that whole eons-long process was arguably necessary for the evolution of individual consciousness and human freedom. The main figure of the New Testament, in my view, played and plays a central role in this whole process of the evolution of consciousness, but that takes us even further away from answering, finally, your initial question, so I'll say no more of J.C.

England, arguably, experienced this fading of the life in thought more and earlier than any other European nation. England earliest on and most of all perceived the world as essentially a collection of material particulars in mechanical operation. And because the English were comparatively aware of particulars more than of unity, and were thus relatively distrustful of the unity of any theory, the English naturally took social life to be concerned with the particulars of which they perceived social life to be composed: namely the individuals of England. At first only prominent or wealthy individuals, but the point is still valid.

Other European nations, while participating of course in the kind of consciousness peculiar to England, specialized in continuing the evolution of earlier layers of human awareness. Thus the French in many ways continue to develop the realm of thought, which in some respects they continue to experience as rather alive and self-sufficient, somewhat as did the ancient Greeks. I emphasize that the French of course also develop the later layer, the layer that was critical to the emergence of the scientific revolution; but they often specialize in what might be called the ancient Greek "intellectual soul," though at another turn of the spiral than occupied the ancient Greeks.

The Germans' particular penchant (to finally get to your question), with their huge genius for philosophy, has been to take the "intellectual soul" inward toward the individual ego, the core of the self, and elaborate it out from there. And in part because for many Germans the realm of ideas had not yet sufficiently faded into "unreality," or "abstractness," many Germans could believe with something like full faith in the unity of a theory, a utopia. The tragedy perhaps was that there was both too much and too little life in German ideation. If there had been more life in German ideas, German utopianism would have been sufficiently flexible and open enough to recognize and avoid trampling the unique individual. (For example, if the Germans had followed Goethe's inherently lively way of mind more closely, they would have been safer.) But also, if there had been less life in German ideation, the Germans would have been more skeptical of grand utopianisms and ideologies. They would have been more like the English. So they were at the exact point on the scale of life -- neither too lively nor too unlively -- where deadly utopias can attempt to realize themselves absolutely. But by now history has immunized the Germans pretty strongly against utopias, of course. And of course the Germans also developed the kind of awareness peculiar to the English and made huge contributions to the scientific revolution. Specialization of nations in developing specific layers of consciousness is only a partial specialization. All nations are generalists as well, of course.

Notice that in speaking of the life in ideas, I have not been speaking of brilliance or the lack of it, nor of interest or the lack of it. The English have been plenty brilliant and interesting. But a quasi-mystical feeling for the vivid inner life of ideas has been, by comparison with many other nations, muted.

Well now, this is one of the more perverse chapters in the history of the world. How did special church status in Germany come to be, you may ask? Well, the answer will shock you. The idea of "Kirchensteuer" (Church Tax) was put into place by Hitler in the 1930s in order to get the catholic church in his pocket before unleashing war on the world.

And mystery of mysteries, the Kirchensteuer-Gesetz (Church Tax Law) is one of the only Nazi-Era laws that are still on the books. For some unknown reason, german politicians have still not got around to undoing this one law :)

What the law means is that the taxpayers, when the do their taxes, list their religion and a small portion of their gross income will go to the denomination they belong to. So, essentially, in most german churches, passing the plate around is not exactly necessary, the church will be subsidized anyway.

How did the jews come on board? As part of making amends and in the desire to re-create german jewish communities in many german cities, the jewish religion was added to the Kirchensteuergesetz.

Why does Germany have more than 5,000,000 (some speculate that it is more like 8,000,000 btw) muslims living there? Well, in the 1950s there was a huge shortage of workers to rebuild the country (with much thanks to the USA and the Marshall Plan) and Turks came over as "guest workers", and simply stayed. They never went home. Hence the large muslim population in Germany. The turks living in Germany represent the largest minority population ever "imported" into another nation. The city of Mannheim is about 40% turkish. There are entire large neighborhoods where you don't even see signs in german anymore.

Now why would the muslims want special "church" status? I am not completely sure, but I suspect this would make it very hard for the german "FBI" to sneak people into mosques in order to record and translate the horrible, hateful sermons that are being preached there. I suspect that for this reason and this reason alone, the muslim community is suddenly interested in "church exempt status".

Perverser and perverser. Usurp the church tax law in order to get around the law and preach hate and jihad. Simply perverse.

Germany will give then the same status as other religion in Germany have. Islam have the same legal status as any other religion in america. The Mmasjid that was firebomb by Islamistprobe is being investage as than HATE CRIMR any bombing or firebombing of any religious builting in America is automatic than hate crime.

"There are entire large neighborhoods where you don't even see signs in german anymore"

........it is sad when you no longer own your own land...Islam is a land grab conspiracy....

"Germany will give then the same status as other religion in Germany have. Islam have the same legal status as any other religion in america....."

by: DefenderofIslam

....the problem is ....the Muslims are in Germany not a Muslim land.....the Muslims are already given the same considerations as German organizations....the Problem arises when the Muslims want everybody to follow their law.....

.....If the Muslims want to follow their law...then they should return to a Muslim land....If the Muslims choose to remain in Germany, they should follow German law...as it applies to Germans....

Muslims in Italy want the same thing as Muslims in Germany -- and, in Italy, a leading Vatican cardinal supported it! Read what I wrote last year in Front Page Magazine:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21921