Al-Sadr, still out of sight, flexes his muscles. From AFP, with thanks to PRCS:
HUNDREDS of thousands of Shiites burned and trampled on US flags as they gathered in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf for an anti-American rally called by firebrand cleric Moqtada al-Sadr on the fourth anniversary of the fall of Saddam Hussein.Large crowds of men, women and children holding Iraqi flags and anti-US banners massed in Najaf and the nearby twin city of Kufa to protest against what they said was an American occupation of Iraq.
The rally is seen as a show of strength for the cleric who has not been seen for more than two months, since the launch of a security crackdown in Baghdad aimed largely at reining in his militiamen accused of killing Sunni Arabs.
The US military has said he is in Iran but his aides deny the claims.
In the capital Baghdad, where four years ago on Monday a giant bronze statue of Saddam was torn down, dramatically symbolising the fall of his regime, security was tight.
A 24-hour vehicle curfew was in place and all Baghdad's key roads and bridges were deserted as people remained indoor for fear of attacks.
Jubilant Baghdadis who welcomed the invading US troops on April 9, 2003, now blame the rampant bloodshed and chaos on what even some of the country's most senior leaders brand an unwanted US-led "occupation".
The Shiite demonstrators are marching from Kufa to Najaf's central Sadrain Square where top aides of Sadr - who is regarded by the Americans as the most dangerous threat to stability in Iraq -are expected to address the crowds.
Hundreds of banners saying "Down with Bush, Down with America" could be seen in the crowd as Iraqi police and army soldiers guarded key checkpoints in and around Najaf and Kufa.
Many in the crowds were seen burning US flags and some were trampling on and striking US and Israeli flags painted on the ground with their shoes, an act considered one of the worst insults in Arab culture.
Some Sunni religious groups were also seen participating in the rally.
...dang!..another missed target opportunity....
What a delightful outcome for the United States. After all those dead soldiers, billions spent, million Iraqis killed and here is the verdict.
Americans are very smart people aren't they? Enjoy your defeat and face loss.
Muslims tend to be ungrateful bastards.
We're not exactly done with you just yet, Abdullah. Ask the Japanese what happens when we Americans get REALLY annoyed.
Let's just pull out and let the "bloodbath" begin. Let them kill each other, since that is what they do best. Religion of peace my rear end.
To the Muslim poster whom shall be unnamed: No, the failure is in Arab/Muslim world. Most of the thousands who have been killed are Muslims, killed by other Muslims. The blood is on Muslim hands. The utter failure to pull together, despite religious differences, for the sake of all Iraqi children, and develop a country that is worth living in, is the fault of Muslims. Your fellow followers of the religion of peace can't claim victimhood once again. The bloodshed, the hatred, the violence is a black mark on the people of Iraq and those in nearby countries, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, who contributed men and money and weapons to insure failure. Muslims will have to live in the house of insanity that they created. The sons of daughters of my family and friends will come home eventually...but they will remember your kind... and they will say "no more," in many different ways.
Amen, Maryrose. Count my family, too. After tours in the hell over there, we're done. I don't think the Muslim nutjobs over there understand, truly understand the "collateral damage" done to our returning troops. I guess they'll just have to find out, now, won't they???
A muslims worst enemy is another muslim....it is true they are killing each other as fast as they can....
In killing each other -- their own kind -- they merely prove the point of what their evil cult really is -- a death cult. I guess this is one way to keep the population problem in check.
Multiple democratic elections in Iraq provide proof of this coalition's successful mission.
Perhaps it's time Iraq put to vote, raise those purple fingers once again, to decide whether they want the coalition troops there or not.
If the majority of Iraqi's vote for the coalition to exit - then we declare victory and give them what they want - with a clear conscience.
Oh how I miss Saddam Hussein!
Nice post Maryrose!
We should have known that these animals and minions of Satan are completey incorrigible moral degenerates!
And you're right, the disgrace is ultimately on them.
should be interesting with Iran fully arming.
Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch. The zionist-crusader occupation wished to cause hatred within Islam. Clearly this has failed, Hizbullah's guns are still pointing towards Israel. Sunnis are vapourizing american humvees by the tens every week in anbar province etc. Those setting off car bombs in shia markets are the American Jews.
What a failure! Sadr has called for an american blood-bath. Soon you will see what it is he calling for.
Praise be to Allah in the morning and in the evening as Dawood used to pray.
HUNDREDS of thousands of Shiites burned and trampled on US flags as they gathered in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf for an anti-American rally
In the capital Baghdad, where four years ago on Monday a giant bronze statue of Saddam was torn down, dramatically symbolising the fall of his regime, security was tight.
A 24-hour vehicle curfew was in place and all Baghdad's key roads and bridges were deserted as people remained indoor for fear of attacks.
The Shiite demonstrators are marching from Kufa to Najaf's central Sadrain Square where top aides of Sadr - who is regarded by the Americans as the most dangerous threat to stability in Iraq -are expected to address the crowds.
Hundreds of banners saying "Down with Bush, Down with America" could be seen in the crowd as Iraqi police and army soldiers guarded key checkpoints in and around Najaf and Kufa.
Many in the crowds were seen burning US flags and some were trampling on and striking US and Israeli flags painted on the ground with their shoes, an act considered one of the worst insults in Arab culture.
----------------------------
Well, Iraq went well didn't it? And its not over yet.
Hate to say it but Abdullah al-jihad is right, this has been a tremendous disaster for the US.
Now proven impotent in war, resolution, intelligence, and just f'ing common sense, we're really in deep shit. Just wait to see what they have in store for US.
Find him and Nasrallah.
Glad one of you has the decency and common sense to see the US has failed miserably both in iraq and afghanistan. 9/11 revenge back fired badly. The US has only succeeded in creating more hatred towards itself and more 9/elevens.
What is laughable is, who the hell is running America?
justamomof4: I agree with you completely...let the Iraqis hold one more exercise in democracy, to vote on the Coalition staying or leaving. My guess is that they would want the Coalition to leave. Within 60 days, we would be gone. And, oh yes, a note to our politicians...with the exception of non-Mulims in Iraq, no increases in immigration from Iraq. The followers of the religion of peace, both Sunni and Shiite, have to stay in Iraq...and there shouldn't be a problem. Our Muslim poster assures us that Sunnis and Shiites have lived together in peace and harmony for hundreds of years; it's the evil Americans who stirred up the blood and violence. ....let the love-fest begin!!
Perhaps I am extrapolating too much, but it seems that Abdullah is implying is that if the US leaves Iraq, then the Shiites and Sunnis will stop killing each other and will live side by side in sweet harmony. Sounds good to me, let's pull out of Iraq then!
I think Abdullah's opinion is representative of the largest percentage of Islamists. However, his American Jew suicide bomber conspiracy theory was undoubtedly taken from Rosie O. These people are going to be shocked when the US pulls it troops from their land. Hundreds of thousands of protestors with nothing better to do? This is all the have and all they know. What Sadr accomplished was taking a poll, and now, I think we should remove our troops. TODAY. Let Sadr give it a whirl. After a day or two of celebration the population will again become restless. His government/army will not be capable of appeasing the population. The war will continue. This will force Iran and the Arabs to participate.
Then maybe our western leaders will see the true threat in this misnamed war on terror. And maybe some 'moderate Muslims' as well. Their is just no way to stop such a violent political/religious ideology such as Islam with a few years of war.
muslims of Iraq: You are welcome for your freedom.
effen bastards.
Since American Politicians will not let the military do military things, there can be no reason to have the military running around giving terrorists target practice....
....either allow the military to do military things or bring them home....quit handicapping them...they deserve better...
Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch. - Abdullah
This is a lie and you know it, Iraq is proof of what has gone on for centuries. You folks can't get along with anyone. As fas as al-sadr is concerned, with his stupid rally. I hope we have operatives videotaping it, let our young folks carry out some missions. Personally I would do a flyover with a few B52s.
It has been put forth in the comments to this post that the US has "failed miserably" in Iraq and Afghanistan. This assertion has been made with some glee evident.
And what exactly would have been the definition of "success" in those countries? That people could choose their own leaders? That women could go to school without fear of being killed? That stonings would stop? That music could be played and business conducted according to the wishes of the people? That tolerance of others' beliefs would be the rule rather than the exception? That those countries could participate in the world economy in a beneficial way for all concerned? That the US could withdraw it's troops and have confidence that the Iraqis and their neighbors could conduct themselves in a civilized manner and not need our babysitting services?
What kind of person or people would wish against such a success? The answer to this question, I think, holds the key to why the US has "failed miserably" in Iraq and Afghanistan. Contrary to the widely espoused idea that 'we all want the same things--why can't we all get along?' it has become obvious that all peoples of the world do not want the same things.
This is the "failure" of the United States of America--believing that everyone wants the same freedoms that we enjoy, and that we have the responsibility and resources to see that they have the chance to have those freedoms. We don't.
The US is criticized for not anticipating the insurgency in Iraq. Who could have guessed that the Iraqis would resort to self-destruction to end occupation? To blowing up their own children with car bombs? To blowing up markets and killing hundreds of people in hopes of killing one American? Sure, we might have expected that from the "Palestinians," but from the Iraqis?
I can walk out of my house right now and go wherever I want to go with almost zero concern for my personal safety.
Because of their own hatred, the Iraqis cannot now, nor could they under Saddam's regime, as evidenced by the mass graves uncovered. Does anyone think that this will improve when the Americans and the Brits leave Iraq?
I agree that it is time to withdraw from Iraq. We gave the Iraqis the best chance we could. Now let them sort it out. The USA was not born without bloodshed. The Iraqis have to step up and pay their dues too. Or not.
T.R.Z.
Target Rich Zone.
"If you're not with us..."
Or, as they used to say:
"You may fire when ready, Gridley."
Whether or not we made a mistake in going to Iraq remains to be seen. But the decision to stay was a mistake. All we had to do once the Saddam government was gone, was hand the country over to the Iraqis and leave.
Personally I think we should have left Saddam in place and dumped a 100k troops into Afghanistan and roll over the Taliban/Alqaeda. And when they went into Pakistan, follow them and meet the Indian Army at the opposite border.
If we had done that, I think the rest of the islamic countries would have minded their Ps and Qs.
Now we are faced with an emboldened islam, and unless we start fighting to win, we will lose.
Withdraw fromt he U.N., witdraw from Nato, form a coalition of democracies, and fight they way we did prior to 1948.
Abdullah
One battle does make a war. Iraq pehaps is a defeat but it is only a small battle in the greater war against Islamic agression. We Americans will see the light soon enough and when that does occur we will have no pitty. Look at our history. We suck at the early phases of war but we finish them strong. BY leaving Iraq the Shia and Sunni will slaugther each other and will draw in everyone including the Arabian states and Iran. Syria will fall apart and even the Sunni/Shia conflict in places like Lebanon will become inflamed. That should keep your muslim brothers busy for some time. That will give us non-muslims in the west time to deal with Islam within our own borders.
In the mean time we will develop our own energy supplies independent of the middle east becuase we will have no choice. We will use nuclear, coal conversion to oil (we have 25% of worlds coal), and hydrogen. Yes at first it will cause some slight problems but nothing too major. We Americans are adjustable people. We change to suit our purposes. We will adapt.
I still feel Islamic terror attacks will occur and some will be worse then 9-11 but once we leave Iraq we will leave behind forever the notion that muslims are like us. That they can be saved or made better. You are different then us. Your values go counter to ours. Therefor it will be simpler to fight you in the future. Free of your oil, the "More rubble less trouble" faction of the conservatives will win the next few elections after the next terror attacks. From that point on we will just bomb islamic nations into rubble. No need to try to reform or bring freedom. You have you civilization and we have ours. As long as your civilization attempts to take the world we will have no other choice then to weaken it and then crush it.
It is survival of fittest.
One battle does make a war! No Just kidding...(I need to re-read something before posting it)
It should say DOES NOT MAKE A WAR!
I don't want Abdullah getting the wrong impression...
cumulusnine, that was perfect. I agree, our only failure is we think that these maniacs actually care to make a better life for themselves. Hey if they don't care, why should we... lets move our troops out and let the civil war begin. Once one of the hot-heads starts giving us lip, we should test out a couple of missles. Watch how fast they all put the women & children in the line of fire. Cowards. I'm really sick of this crap. Our troops are sacrificing everything for a bunch of ungrateful, haters. If anyone in Iraq cares now is the time to step up.
So... are we on the Sunni side then??? Are they who we want to win this thing? No wait, al Queda is Sunni, so that doesn't add up.. Let's see, we'll use that time-honored Arab calculator - the enemy of my enemy is my friend - the Sunnis think we are the enemy, the Shia think we are the enemy, the Sunni and Shia hate each other... hmmm that didn't work.... oh it's all so confusing... thank God we have smart people like little Boy Bush and Condi to guide us through this....
Waterc - I'm with you. I've been thinking the same things.
...Sunnis and Shiites have lived side by side for thousands of years without a hitch...
I have a suggestion for you Abdullah. Since you're so convinced that sunnis and shia can live together in peace, perhaps it's time you and your fellow sunnis should bow to the will of Muhammad and recognize the supremacy of the shia - that way peace would be assured and we could all get on with our lives. What makes me think the shia should rule? Well, that's what Muhammad said. To wit:
"Ali's many personal qualities are amply attested to in various histories and collections of Traditions. Among the statements regarding Ali and his family made by the Prophet and accepted as authentic by both Sunnis and Shi'is are the following:
1. There is no youth braver than Ali.
2. No-one but a believer loves Ali and no-one but a hypocrite (munafiq) hates Ali.
3. I am from Ali and Ali is from me.
4. The truth circulates with him (Ali) wherever he goes.
5. I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is its Gate (Bab).
6. On one occasion the Prophet was about to eat some poultry and he said: 'O God! Send me the man you love most among mankind to eat this food with me.' And Ali came and ate with him.
7. The Prophet said in reply to someone who had complained about Ali: ' What do you think of one who loves God and his Prophet and who in turn is loved by God and his Prophet?' Also: 'The most loved of women to the Prophet of God is Fatima and the most loved of men is Ali.'
And then there's the Farewell Pilgrimage address from the account given in Ibn Hanbal, a Sunni collection of hadith:
We were with the Apostle of God in his journey and we stopped at Ghadir Khumm. We performed the obligatory prayer together and a place was swept for the Apostle under two trees and he performed the mid-day prayer. And then he took Ali by the hand and said to the people: 'Do you not acknowledge that I have a greater claim on each of the believers than they have on themselves?' And they replied: 'Yes!' And he took Ali's hand and said: "Of whomsoever I am Lord (Mawla), then Ali is also his Lord. O God! Be Thou the supporter of whoever supports Ali and the enemy of whoever opposes him." And the Umar met him (Ali) after this and sais to him: 'Congratulations, O son of Abu Talib! Now morning and evening (i.e. forever) you are the master of every believing man and woman.'
Looks to me like you've been backing the wrong side...Hmmmmm?
cumulusnine - Well said.
I, too, used to believe that we all wanted the same things out of life, but then my husband started to read articles on sites including Jihad Watch and LGF and we both started to learn about Islam. Now I see that my idea of freedom is not the same as Islam's and its strictest adherents.
How representative was this crowd of all of the Shiites in Iraq, I wonder? How accurate is the reported number and what percentage is that of the total population of Shiites? If 200,000 people in my city rioted in favour of terrorists, that would still be less than 10 percent of the total population.
If the Shiite rioters are a true representation of most Shiites in Iraq, then I think they are ingrates (to say the least).
...ever notice you never see masses of Christians or Non Muslims holding large hate protests?........
....The hate protests are always held by Muslims.....
....Most of the blood spilled in the world today is caused by Muslims......
....Muslims, if they cannot kill infidels...will kill each other...who would want to be a muslim?......
I think Iraq is a huge success.
Why? Well we disposed of a dictator that was holding a Muslim country together; these Muslims will kill each other once we leave, hell they’re killing each other right now. The other Muslim countries will join in because "live and let live" is an alien concept to them. Hopefully with luck they'll wipe out a bunch of their own so we won't have to. If only Bush and Co. we're smart enough to encourage war.
But no. There is going to be tons of people wailing about the dead Iraqi children and the "ordinary Moms and Dads" who just "want freedoms". Get over it. These people don't care about their own lives and they certainly don't care about ours. Kill them before they kill us.
Abdullah,
I hate to agree with Abdullah, but Iraq has been an unmitigated disaster. It cannot be controlled except by force. In the last hundred years, only Saddam Hussein ruled Iraq effectively.
However, I suspect that as Muslims continue to rampage and murder all over the world, the backlash is inevitably coming. If the last century taught us anything, it was how to exterminate large groups of people. Pol Pot killed three million, Hitler killed six to ten million, Stalin killed thirty million, and Mao killed sixty million. Except for Hitler, all the rest got away with these genocides, dying peacefully in their sleep.
When the backlash against Islamic violence comes, I suspect we will see the violent elimination of entire Muslim populations from India, Thailand, Philippines, China, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Russia and Europe. It won’t be defendable and certainly won't be moral... but it will be understandable.
@abdullah posted:
"Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch."
THOUSANDS OF YEARS?
abby,
I thought you said you want the Shias' heads chopped off. What's up with the change of heart?
Also, I thought Islam's been around 1400 years.
Provoslavni, I agree with your sentiments but disagree with your statement "when the backlash against Islamic violence comes...".
The west is weak, has no stomach for conflict, has forgotten that freedom has a price, and lacks strong leadership. There is no western leader with the intestinal fortitude to step it up and start a campaign to target the Islamic world. Bush is already up to his neck in Iraq and cannot secure the funding to continue.
Britain just lost face in the standoff with Iran, and Tony Blair cowered as demands increased for him to do something.
France, Germany, helllooo???
We are shedding our traditional morality and responsibilities as quickly as the jihadists are becoming emboldened. Despite the bravado in some of the posts at this forum, our culture is under attack from all sides and we're doing virtually nothing to defend it.
A few more years of fiddling while Rome burns and we'll be more neutral than Switzerland and less effective than ever. Politically, we're shifting even more to the left, where the anti-war and socialist/pacifists are camped out. That isn't good for our future. My confidence has been shaken badly in the last few years, and nothing on the horizon looks any better for us.
@Ynkedoodl
I think Abdullah is actually a closet Shia. Why else would he not explode with rage when presented with the facts (according to Sunni hadiths)that Mo actually wished his 'religion' to be headed by Ali, hence the Shia? Perhaps that crash you just heard was Abby throwing his computer out the window because he could not refute the facts.
Or maybe he's in the process of becoming Shia so that he can spread the truth to his fellow Sunnis so that peace will reign in the ME and we can then get the heck out of there and leave them all to love one another.
Gosh, I feel like Nancy Pelousy must have felt when she brokered peace between the Israelis and the Syrians! It's good to be Queen!!
"Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch".
Funny how Abdullah seems to have forgotten that just the other day he was personally cursing the Shiites. Hard to keep up with all the taqyyia, I guess.
The more Abdullah and Naseem post, the more it seems that Islam really is a mental illness.
If the United States' goal all along was to create intra-Islamic hatred (from scratch, apparently), then have we not succeeded beyond our wildest expectations?
Enough. Attack Iran and get this over with -- make this fiasco in Iraq worth something.
Shoot Al-Sadr, but if he's in Iran, put a bomb on him.
As for the Iraqis, let them sort out the mess that is Islam for themselves. All Allied forces should leave the region -- that includes Saudi Arabia.
But we won't. Oil greed, corporations embedded in wealthy and tiny Arab tourist states, etc. will just keep us mired in that cesspool until all Hell breaks loose.
The mistakes being made by our U.S. military and government are wearing on me. I don't see what the longterm strategy could possibly be if we continue to allow Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia to walk all over us, murder and plan the murders of American servicemen and civilians and spread the taint of Islam across our own nation, using the very money we provide.
These INGRATES in Iraq make me sick to my stomach. Barbarians do not want peace -- they want to wallow in the death cult of Islam. Let them rot in it, I say.
Get our troops home as soon as reasonably possible. And leave some smoking craters behind us in the right places across the Middle East on our way out.
@mepeteart
I personally think Abdullah is a closet Infidel. And you're right, if he were a legitimate Sunni Muhammadan he would have exploded with rage when presented with the facts (which you presented so nicely)that Mo actually wished his 'religion' to be headed by Ali, hence the Shia.
Abdullah, IMO, is a fake!
The really sad thing about all this is that so few Americans, still, graps the need for encouraging sunni-shiite splits in the Middle East. Conservatives are mostly delusioned to thinking the Sunnis and Shia can still have actual loyalty to Amercian troops and be civil with each other and liberals and Political Science *Intellectuals*, a bulk of whcih infest college campuses, act like the sunni-shia slpit is such a catastrophy that it's proof that dealing with Iraq at all was a huge mistake and we can't afford to aggesviely deal with Islamic nations at all.
I think the heinous reality of the sectarian conflicts largely prevents both these sides from understanding what a good thing it is to just let Sunni-Shia tensions biol over. It pains to see completely innocent civilians in the Sunni-Shia conflict, whose real desires are providing for their families' future and living decent lives, be massacred and bombed en mass. Same as it does to see innocent, noncombatant Christians, Jews, Hindus or anyone else murdered in the name of jihad (granted, Western intelluctuals often could care less about these victims of jihad, but we're digresisng now). The only solution is to explain the history behind the 1000+ year old Sunni-Shia wars to Americans so that they see that, given it is terrible and reprehensible to leave innocent Iraqis at the mercy of Sunni-Shia fighters, any other option we choose to prevent or hinder the clashes will do nothing but make the conflicts even more widespread and burn up more resources we really need now. Also, leaving a nation like Iraq prone to these clashes can't ever be an excuse not to deal with these countries in the first place, which Democrats, who in their cluelessness about the Islamic world make even Busha and Co look good, refuse to get conceptually.
Given all that, it still does not mean we have to force all Middle Easterners to be stuck in these conflicts, Sunni-Shia and other types, with no way out. Anyone in the Islamic world trapped in these wars, whether Christian, Muslim/secularist, Hindu or Buddhist, really souldn't be denied haven in Western nations simply because we're worried about running out of room for them. Of course, mass immigration, piaricularly illegal and of course illegal immigration from Islamic nations, will need to be curbed severely, but America and the West has the ability and, I still believe, the obligation to provide asylum for Iraqis, Iranians and all others, religion nonwithstanding, whose safety and livlihood are in danger from the conflicts. Such types of migrants would naturally include civilian Christians, Kurds, Shia and Sunni from Iraq, humanists, Christians and secularist muslims from Iran, Copts from Egypt, Amazigh (agnistic, secualrist muslim and closet Christian) from North Africa, blach christians and muslims from Sudan and Baloch, Sindhi and PoK civilians from Pakiland.
So, while we need to be encouraging Sunni-Shai and other inter-Islamic conflicts to fester for the sake of our interests, that does not mean it's appropriate to force all civilians who are not at all involved to suffer the fallout. Bringing that up when talking about encouraging Sunni-Shia splits can help remind Americans that it is not about supporting the suffering or killing of civilians just because we find it entertaining to watch Middle Easterners and others suffer.
"Attack Iran and get this over with "
Foe-
I don't see how we could succeed against Iran until our dependance on ME oil is resolved. They control the straits of Hormuz and that is perhaps the biggest card they have. Between the hundreds of bottom-rising mines and weaponry surrounding the straits, they are just waiting to shut down economies the world over. Japan gets something like 90% of its oil from there. Something has got to give and I don't think a military strike would be enough. They deserve it no doubt, but the results for us would be equally bad.
-XRDC
If you want to call Iraq a failure that is fine. The reason it has been a "failure" is because we have hamstringed our military. We try too hard to take the "high" road.
Trust me when I say that if we let our military do their jobs and truly act as an "occupier", we would have finished the job 3 years ago.
It would have been a blood bath and we would have been condemned by the UN et al.
But if it had been Vladimir Putin running the show, how do you think things would have gone?
The liberal media and the bleeding hearts created the Iraq mess. They should have let the Armed Forces take Iraq by "any means necessary".
The fat drug addict Al Sadr would have been pushing up daisies 3 years ago.
DEATH TO ISLAM!
"Huge anti-US rally marks Iraq millstone"
muslims have never known the meaning of gratitute, even from another muslim, much less from the satan kafur US.
Let this be a lesson to all the liberal farts on the Capitol Hill that when it comes to muslims, you cannot not trust any one of them.
Providing billions of dollars worth of aid only boosts their ego into believing that they have their allah given right to demand jazia from the infidel kafur.
If US thinks that it can tame a muslim by being nice to him, then she is sorely mistaken. Giving military hardware to pakistanis is not going to be used in the hunt for taliban (for God's sake, they are already roaming the streets of islamabad). No, they are only going to be used to butcher the haples Indians.
But then, perhaps US alreday knows this anyways.
""Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch."
......and together they had achieved absolutely nothing......except maybe misery, poverty, and war...
HUNDREDS of thousands of Shiites burned and trampled on US flags as they gathered in the Iraqi holy city of Najaf for an anti-American rally called by firebrand cleric Moqtada al-Sadr on the fourth anniversary of the fall of Saddam Hussein.
-from the article
So I guess it is safe to assume the battle for the "hearts and minds" of the Iraqi's was indeed a failure. That being said, the operation was a roaring military success, in that it completely de-stabilized the region and set the table for a long, debilitating secterian war between Sunni and Shia, adversely affecting all in the camp of Islam.
That mission is accomplished and quite complete, so immediate withdrawal is in order. There is no need to waste any more military and economic resources, for we can not and will not kill more Islamists then they will kill internally, amongst themselves. So it appears that Hugh was and continues to be 100% correct in his position.
Abdullah wrote:
"Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch."
Abdullah is the most useful idiot that we have here now on JW. Yesterday, he hates the Shiites, today they're brothers and staunch allies. This is typical Islamist taqiyya-ridden thinking. It is neither clever nor logical. I might remind Abdullah of that little 8-year war between Iran and Iraq, with under the table arms dealing to both sides by Reagan, all adding up to the tune of over 1.3 million caualties to both sides. Indeed, another military failure as well, as seen only by one who failed out of West Point.
I also might remind Abdullah of the casualty ratio of the coalition forces comparative to the Baath army, Sunni and Shia insurgents and Iraqi coalition forces combined. The numbers are staggering. Less than 5,000 dead for the coalition, well over 100,000 for the bad boys of Islam. Another military failure as well, as seen only by one who has created a new form of fuzzy math.
After withdrawal, when the entire region falls into utter self-destructive chaos, the only question is what to do next? Well, a ground invasion of Iran is foolhardy. There is no need. Airstrikes against their nuclear facilities, and some "targeting-errors", which happen to destroy their oil production infrastructure should to the trick. If UN sanctions are working to some degree, the aforementioned strategy should cause an expeditious collapse of the country.
Leave al Sadr alone. He is the Shiite spearhead that will undoubtedly redirect his attention to the Sunnis once the US presence is gone. We need an even playing field to ensure that the civil war drags on and on and on. We also have no need to make it any easier on our "friends" in Saudi Arabia. Let them jump on in unless they decide to just cede Iraq to Iran. Whatever, it makes no difference to the US.
We have so much to gain and so little to lose in this scenario. We just need to get the hell out of the way and let it all happen.
In the real world, a group that was liberated from an oppressive regime would be grateful.
The Shiites have been liberated from their Sunni/Baath oppressors. They were the ones who proudly displayed their purple thumbs.
Of course, Islamdom is not the real world.
The love fest between The Shia and Sunni has never been so pronounced. I think the only place they have lived side by side is in the Grave.
Both sides should get a jump on their Digging of Graves. They are going to need them.
You can lead an Iraqi to Freedom but you can't make him want it.
I just wish Bush would be as successful with Iran as he was in Iraq.
When the time comes to leave, we should render the area incapable of existing beyond the lifestyle the 8th Century provided.
Give unto them what they desire. A primitive life for a primitive people.
To Abdullah,
you write Shias and Sunnis were living for thousands of years in peace?
Why don't you explain us your way calculating a year? Does it only have 180 days?
Well, I ask because of thinking Islam is nearly 1600 years old....
And one more addition:
If muslims felt to conquer Europe and Northern Africa, which was populated by Christians for hundrets of years - why are they surprised by the reaction of our forefathers. This reaction called RECONQUISTA was the answer to the muslim crap spreading all over Europe.
And beware: All over islamic countries there is fighting between muslims. But you are still talking about crusaders. In which world do you live, on which planet?
So why don't you shut up, read a history book or go play hide and fxxk yourself.
maxwell46&2 wrote:
"So, while we need to be encouraging Sunni-Shai and other inter-Islamic conflicts to fester for the sake of our interests, that does not mean it's appropriate to force all civilians who are not at all involved to suffer the fallout."
There is no more room for this inane thinking. There is a war going on. When we leave, it will not be the US "forcing" all civilians to suffer, now will it?
The democrats are right, although they have no idea as to why. The US will pull out eventually, hopefully sooner than later.
What the American citizen, and much of the world, has come to realize is that none of these people over there are worth our effort. A hundred of them are not worth one of our soldiers. We have tried to give them a chance, but they can't and won't ever civilize. They are Muslims! Abdullard gives us a clear picture of their minds, their lack of reasoning powers, their irrationality, their constant lying and soul rotting hate. Why can't Bush see this? What is wrong with him? They are Muslims! LEAVE IRAQ (preferrably after bombing them back to the stoneage first). Come home and defend our borders (which again Bush wants to open up)and develope something to get us OUT OF OIL. Let them kill themselves. That's what they deserve. Huh, Abdullard, you pathetic moron!
Ah for the dolts like Abdullah, this is Muslim democracy and it is your people and your defeat while it is the American victory in we sold the flags to these whiners and made a profit along with the fact THAT 12 MILLION IRAQI'S DIDN'T PROTEST.
I will repeat that, 12 million Iraqi's didn't protest.
I'd rather dig for more oil then glow from radiation or live by candlelight because we've been too slow and stupid to understand the depth of evil approaching us from the Middle East.
Iran must have its nuclear ambitions destroyed.
As for the idea of letting Al-Sadr live -- that just can't happen. He's a toy of the Iranians. If he lives and we leave, Iraq will become part of Iran's growing reach within 2 years and nobody is going to be insane enough to send more troops in to put a halt to that.
The Iranian regime and military must be brought down to a level that makes such threats to Iraq no longer feasible. Plenty of munitions dispensed from our able Air Force should do that trick in no-time. Then let the Persian secularists route the Iranian mullahs and drive them away. Given enough backing and support, I know the Persians could establish an entirely different footprint on this globe.
And for God's sake, let's find some able, smart and unbreakable people to put in Washington. Let's put our damn political squabbling aside for 10-20 years, keep the bird-brained, blue-blooded Pelosis out of our international affairs and actually put on a unified face for the world. That would be our best possible defense.
And build a damn border fence and end Muslim immigration.
The solutions are crystal clear. The road to them is covered in pitfalls, greedy attorneys, foreign lobbyists, life-time political yo-yo's and Islamist intimidation. Nothing a couple of hundred still loyal and determined Americans can't overcome.
Do we have a lot of work to do. Hell yes. Is this fight lost? Not by a long shot.
But we might have to make room for our European friends when they get on life boats to escape the sinking ship they once called home. Eurabia is no longer just a nightmare-whimsical nickname. Should be plenty of room in Nevada deserts still -- and the white wastes of Canada and the Dakotas. Bring lots of suntan oil and parkas.
Foehammer
More of the same from muslims. Shiites and sunnis have never gotten along - only if their cause was one and the same - killing of infidels. They they go back to killing each other. this is what happens because islam breeds murderers and they can't/won't stop. 'Honor killings' gives them a way to keep it up too.
And if a muslim says that they have lived side by side in peace - that muslim is very ignorant of their own history or practicing taqiyya (or whatever word the sunnis use for deception).
Ignorance by muslims can be expected because they are not allowed to question their own faith, their schools don't teach such things, and most of them are illiterate if they are from/in muslim lands - they only know how to recite the koran and many don't even know what it says since it is in arabic. But, in our society 'ignorance is not an excuse'. Is this consideration to be given to them? I say no.
Otherwise, this article just shows us that the world should get involved because if they think they will be immune - they are just enjoying their heads in the sand and their butts waving in the wind ready as targets.
And for God's sake, let's find some able, smart and unbreakable people to put in Washington. Let's put our damn political squabbling aside for 10-20 years, keep the bird-brained, blue-blooded Pelosis out of our international affairs and actually put on a unified face for the world. That would be our best possible defense.
And build a damn border fence and end Muslim immigration.
The solutions are crystal clear. The road to them is covered in pitfalls, greedy attorneys, foreign lobbyists, life-time political yo-yo's and Islamist intimidation. Nothing a couple of hundred still loyal and determined Americans can't overcome.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 9, 2007 01:55 PM
I agree completely Foehammer, but how can this be accomplished. A couple of hundred loyal and determined Americans won't elect any candidate. It takes millions of votes. Tancredo has entered the fray, but I haven't seen any media pick up on him. They are too in love with Obama. I agree with you, but don't see how the necessary changes can be brought about. Maybe, MAYBE, if seven of our cities are suitcase nuked. But I am not even confident that that would wake all the millions of our brain-dead, over-fed m-asses.
They celebrate the fall of Saddam by burning the flags of, and denouncing the country which, was directly responsible for that very fall? The country that brought them out from under the Baathist, Sunni bootheel of Hussein? Ungrateful, ignorant vermin. The only thing about this "rally" that angers me more than the ingratitude is that we didn't drop about several tons of ordnance on it and eliminate all of these potential jihadis with one blow. Why not? Cretins like Abdullah are already throwing around their hyper-inflated death toll, claiming "millions" of Muslims have died in the Iraq war; what difference would it make if we added a few thousand more in?
From Jihad Watch:
"Why Jihad Watch?
Because the West is facing a concerted effort by Islamic jihadists, the motives and goals of whom are largely ignored by the Western media, to destroy the West and bring it forcibly into the Islamic world -- and to commit violence to that end even while their overall goal remains out of reach. That effort goes under the general rubric of jihad."
Abdullah should keep posting here. He is telling the world the real truth about islam, the motive and goals, quite well, and his muslim view, the very view we are trying to educate others on, fits in with the purpose if this site.
Abdullah is doing our work for us.
That Abdullah poster is a total idiot. Iraq is nothing but a giant toilet that mooslims reside in. All the military men I know who have served there said it's the most disgusting place they've ever seen and full of trash everywhere. This is probably common in most of the Middle East where the people live in filth while the rulers steal all the oil income. Instead of directing their anger at the proper source, they direct it towards us because they're too stupid to know any better. I believe they have an average IQ of about 70, that stems from living in shit.
I look forward to the day when the mooslims give us a good reason to completely obliterate their land. They can say whatever they want now, but a day will come when they see the full power of the US in all it's glory. Praise be to God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
More stupidity.....praise the day Iraq was liberated, then......let's kill the SOB's who liberated us. Where is their logic?
Bonniea says: "More stupidity.....praise the day Iraq was liberated, then......let's kill the SOB's who liberated us. Where is their logic?"
Bingo! There is no logic. That's a big part of the problem. We and them think absolutely 180 degrees apart. There will never be any logic or meeting of the minds!
The Shiite demonstrators are marching from Kufa to Najaf's central Sadrain Square where top aides of Sadr - who is regarded by the Americans as the most dangerous threat to stability in Iraq -are expected to address the crowds.
I'd love to see a squadron of C130s swoop in - guns blazing.
What a fantastic target! What an opportunty to eliminate thousands of terrorists and their sympathizers in one fell swoop!
The IDF by the way should do the same each time the 'palestinians' have one of their 'shooting AK-47s in the air' rallies. I consider both of these to be legitimate targets.
Any time you have large massings of enemies who burn your flag and shout "death to [fill in the blanks]" that country whose flags are burned and whom death is shouted to has a legitimate right to answer in kind.
They are communicating their INTENT. Intent is enough even by the standards of our domestic criminal code which the liberals love to cite when it comes to the 'detainees'.
Therefore anyone who is an enemy and displays intent to kill you - particularly large groups of armed men - is a legitimate target of war.
The fialure to engage such targets is negligence at the very least.
And these are the people who are 'hungry' and 'disenfranchised' according to our own academic Left! Let me see them sell thie guns and start tilling the earth before we give them ONE RED CENT of our tax monies!!
Foehammer wrote:
"As for the idea of letting Al-Sadr live -- that just can't happen. He's a toy of the Iranians. If he lives and we leave, Iraq will become part of Iran's growing reach within 2 years and nobody is going to be insane enough to send more troops in to put a halt to that."
Disagreed on that point. Iran has plenty others to simply replace him. The battle for Iraq will wage on between Sunni and Shia long after we are gone. Besides, Iran is a problem, but far from the only one. Islam is and always will be the problem. Saudi Arabia, as indicative by the support it previously granted to the Hussein regime, will do so again in some other form, in an attempt to offset the increasing Iranian sphere of influence.
Your other points, agreed. Dismantle Iran's nuclear facilities, a priority, unless you are desiring a nuke to land in Tel Aviv. Border control? Paramount, but that won't happen until Bush departs, at least.
Choose your candidates wisely in 2008.
XRDC
"I don't see how we could succeed against Iran until our dependance on ME oil is resolved."
The oil question is what this all comes down to in the end. If we can obtain oil for ourselves that is secure OR get rid of dependence of middle east oil for other non-oil options then we will secure ourselves from defeat. As long as we are dependent on their oil we will be in danger of losing.
There two solutions...
(1) Use a combination of coal conversion to oil, nuclear power, advanced solor (army has been doing some neat stuff in this area), hydrogen (by product of nuclear power), drill/search for more oil, etc to overcome the need. It will take a combination government funding and capitalist free market forces. We need as Robert Spencer has stated a "Manahatten Project" of energy independence. This will free ourselves of their middle east oil and we can push other nations to adopt these measures OR let them defend the oil lanes in the middle east if they don't. That should be funny to watch.
(2) Invade nations like Saudi Arabia and take their oil from them. Remove the muslim population from those areas. We can do it under the pretext of "good for humanity" etc. Of course the UN and Arabs will scream bloody murder and several muslim states will attack us but at least then we will be fighting for Americans and the west/friends and not for muslims. It will be our oil to defend (by right of conquest). Some may not like number 2 and I am not saying it is right. What I am saying is it is an option.
One thing is certain. Dealing with muslims is bad news no matter what. Being dependent on them for anything is death in the long run. Oil is no exception.
Americans are very smart people aren't they? Enjoy your defeat and face loss.
Posted by: Abdullah
WE the *people* are very smart, Abby. Which is why *WE* the people want moslems OUT of our lands!
Provoslavni is right. The DAY will COME.
And more from Abby the Troll:
What is laughable is, who the hell is running America?
Posted by: Abdullah
WE *know* who is running America. A wealthy oligarchy who is paid off by the SOWdis. Trust me, even a Guiliani Administration will CLEAN HOUSE and there will be a whole lot LESS political correctness than there is now.
There is no way that Obama the moslem or Hitlery the Adolf will win the Presidency. All courtesy of you moslems :-)
May you find out soon who REALLY runs America - the increasingly informed and *pissed-off* electorate!
How much ya wanna bet the *next* demonstration by the United American Committee will draw even larger crowds?!
Get out now, Abby.. while you still can..
France, Germany, helllooo???
We are shedding our traditional morality and responsibilities as quickly as the jihadists are becoming emboldened.
Posted by: Muzzl'em
We get called the worst of names at the slightest hint of any form of mention of National Interest. I mean Germany by this. The French shout their National Interest from the rooftops.. or should I say the minaret? That means ppl like Shiirac who is ruining things for the French as fast as he possibly can.
Good thing to see Sarkozy ahead of the Socialist Femme! May the French please rise to the occasion and elect an *HONEST* and patriotic leader?!
As for Germany.. we need to step up *after* some of the other countries. You can hardly expect Germany to stick its neck out and start an uprising. Question is: would you really want us to?
As of now, even the most 'conservative' party in Germany, the CDU is slithering down the path of appeasement and cowering.
Anything further to the Right reeks of fascism and the picture is so muddy it is hard to tell who is against the islamo-Nazis and who is for them.
In reality Germany has no clearcut anti-islamist political representation as of now.
Poland is way ahead of us both in how few moslems they have and for their instinctive awareness and caution with which they view these 'infidels'. Yes, it's the moslems who really are 'infidels'. They are the devil-worshippers - NOT US!!
Finally, I still have my hopes on Russia and even China when it comes to a no-nonsense approach to moslems.
No nonsense - no mercy!
At least what I hear on the street in Chiatown, U.S.A. sounds a WHOLE LOT better than what I hear coming out of Yale and Columbia.. or out of Congress..
Trust me - the Chinese KNOW who and what moslems are. And I think so do the Russians.
So if the Russians rise up... things could get interesting.
We must stop antagonizing them. The Russians could restore Serbia if they see the worth in that. Americans should let Europeans manage European affairs.. Russia is a part of Europe and they should have say in what happens in the Balkans.
If Russia plays a bigger part in Europe it will ultimately benefit us all. Including the United States.
The front is Western Culture vs. islam. It s also traditional Asian ie. Eastern Culture vs. islam.
We could have islam surrounded and on the run if we all unite from East to North to West!
@fedupinamerica:
"I agree completely Foehammer, but how can this be accomplished. A couple of hundred loyal and determined Americans won't elect any candidate."
--
I'm sorry, in my haste to make a point and keep up with emails and my blog, I failed miserably to make myself clear on that. I was referring to installing more loyal, bipartisan, thinking representatives into Congress who could get the jobs done for a change. And that, as you pointed out, is definitely going to take the work of 200 MILLION just to get those 200 better people into Washington.
We're so overdue for new term limitations on all our leaders, I doubt it could be beyond dispute.
And when an ex-Muslim (?) like Obama generates as much campaign revenue as he has, I'm concerned that the sooner we get people in office to counter-act the damage he might very well do, the better. The man might have all the good intentions in the world, but the very thought of anymore elected officials with any sympathies for Muslims makes me cringe.
We need some bastards in Washington that will do the right thing, make the tough choices. If I thought for a minute I could be a politician, I'd volunteer to try, but knowing me, I'd only make headlines with my big mouth and my right cross more often than not.
Who is denouncing this rally? Has anyone heard from the Iraqi government, the Kurds, or even the US government?
Or, will it be ignored as though it's no big deal?
It all comes down to this: Do we want to pay $10 per gallon for auto fuel? Do we want to pay triple the cost for heating oil and propane?
Do we want our troops home?
If we return all Muslims to the mid-east and to Somalia and anywhere else they come from, that will help to cut the demand for oil. If all illegal immigrants are forced from our country, that too will cut the demand for oil. Return all of the students from Saudi Arabia; I'm sure they are not driving fuel efficient cars while they are in our country.
But, we won't. Can't hurt anybody's feelings.
It's okay that there's an anti-US rally in Iraq.
We'll just ignore it and it will go away, just like the anti-US rallies that have already been held in our country.
We are so doomed.
Alright thats it.
Find a Sunni Saddam look alike with all the vindictiveness/brutality/general paranoia...put him back power and show the Shia what they have forgotten so quickly. This is unbelievable.
"I agree completely Foehammer, but how can this be accomplished."
......take a look at the North Korean model of the DMZ....nothing crosses it....razor sharp wire, guard towers with guards who will shoot, land mines, guard dogs, guards on foot who will shoot, motions sensors, infrared sensors, aircraft on call who will shoot...
....if you will shoot , you can protect a border.....
The whole problem with the muslims is that our government will not allow the military to shoot to kill...
The USA will loose the war bkz they were fighting the wrong enemy. The Shias feel more powerful bkz of the humilation they gave to the Brits. Oh, and the liberal media in the West, always sucking up to the Muslims, is paving the way to make it against the law to criticize the pedophile prophet. All set for pax islamica.
The U.S. should purchase a full page in every newspaper in Iraq. It should read:
"You people deserved Sadaam Hussein. We're only sorry we found out to late."
"We gave you an opportunty to live in a free country ruled by law, and you blew it."
"We found out long ago that if you want to live free, you have to stand up and fight for it -- a lesson you obviously are incapable of learning or understanding.
"at your request, we'll be leaving shortly, and you'll get what you asked for and deserve."
"Goodby! We won't be back!"
After all the blood and treasure we've spent in that ungrateful country, I would like to at least have the satisfaction of seeing these parting sentiments published for all Iraqis to see.
"The whole problem with the muslims is that our government will not allow the military to shoot to kill..."
As evidenced by our failure to fire when we had a Taliban funeral with a large gathering of Taliban/Al Quaeda leadership in the sites of a heavily armed unmanned airplane.
This was the perfect opportunity for the Administration to show some leadership by blowing the hell out of this bunch while the flags were burning and the cameras were rolling.
It's also times like this that I really do wonder why trying to reduce or dependence on oil through solar, water , wind or a ton of other options is not given mainstream accceptance in America. Same as why making use of oil sands in America or looking for more oil in Mexico and other places isn't a national proirity now. That's in essence another place where conservative Americans are putting us in danger.
Of course, it doesn't change the fact that having Republicans in office is safer then the likes of Obama, Pelosi, Ellison, Carter, John Edwards or others, but the Right have to get over their inherent phobia of alternative energy sources. Possibly some of them already have some inherent plans ready to take on Amadinejad if he blocks the Straits of Mormuz, maybe they're counting on help from China or Russia if Iran gets to the point where it denies them their oil sources. And of course, it's always possible that Iran's leadership is just using threatning words and hot air to try and intimidate us when they don't have any real potential to bring us down at all; after all, this is an islamic leadership we're addressing here, not a fascist or communist leadership, and islamic countries are known for being extremely weak in fighting wars and pathetically ineffective. They fight against enemies by sneaking over terrorists and fifth columnists and cells in droves and using their enemies' hospitality against them.
But of course, it's not real likely, and the question remains when are they going to get over their oilphillic tendnecies, so to speak. It remains their inabiity to help ween us off Middle Eastern oil (and oil itself, to some extent) that explains why they're so scared of Iraq coming apart at the seams, scared of tackling Iran and essentiall giving Saudi Arabia approval to spread their version of Jihad everywhere from West Africa to Bosnia to South and SE Asia to the West itself.
And as an addenum, when I said earlier that Iraqi and civlians and others should not be denied asylum if their livlihood is threatned, I definitely meant civilians like Christians, secularists, atheists, Persian activists in Iran, black african christians and muslims fleeing similar conflicts in their countries, NOT whoever attended this rally or whoever was there and did not object to it. They need to be reduced to fertilizer, put out of their misery and made so they're no longer a burden to Americans.
Abdullah:
Sunnis and shiites have lived side-by side for thousands of years without any hitch.
That isnt true. Barely more than a post ago, you were talking about them as Heretics (and what if Muhammad came back, said the successor should have been Ali and all Sunni are Heretics - what then?). Down through the ages, Sunni have always persecuted Shia. It is true now. Have a look here:
7th April 2007
At least 40 people have been killed and dozens wounded in two days of clashes between Sunni and Shia Muslims in north-western Pakistan, officials say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6534473.stm
5th February 2007
President Ali Abdullah Saleh of Yemen has warned militant Islamists to disarm, during a week of clashes between a Shia militant group and the armed forces that left at least 42 soldiers dead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6331149.stm
Then there is the daily Sunni & Shia killings within Baghdad.
The zionist-crusader occupation wished to cause hatred within Islam.
Sure, sure. Is that the propaganda they taught you at your Mosque? Does not stand up. The Jews have never had anything to do with the Sunni-Shia divide. And since the divide is 1300 years old, that predates the Crusades, right?
The truth is Muslims have always blamed others for their own problems inherent in their own countries.
Clearly this has failed, Hizbullah's guns are still pointing towards Israel.
No doubt. But are the Lebanese Sunni happy that Hizbullah acts at a State within a State? Are Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen happy? No they are not.
Sunnis are vapourizing american humvees by the tens every week in anbar province etc. Those setting off car bombs in shia markets are the American Jews.
That last sentence - you dont know that. It has been Al'Queda & Iraqi Sunni that has been bombing the Shia. And yeah, some of what you say is right. But the USA should have left Iraq a long time ago. Right now, staying, is satisfying Bush's ego.
What a failure!
For Iraq that is. Too bad the people dont want to live in peace. So far we have 60000-65000 dead Iraqies and 2000+ dead Americans + other coalition troops. More Muslims have died than coalition troops.
Sadr has called for an american blood-bath.
But he is not going to do the fighting. What a coward he is. It is not going to happen.
Abdullah said this:
*****
Glad one of you has the decency and common sense to see the US has failed miserably both in iraq and afghanistan. 9/11 revenge back fired badly. The US has only succeeded in creating more hatred towards itself and more 9/elevens.
What is laughable is, who the hell is running America?
Posted by: Abdullah
*****
I suppose that Abdullah is right. We have failed to show Iraqis and Afghanis that it truly is possible to live a life in peace and harmony. We have failed to show you that you really do not have to live in a world of revenge, hatred, and conspiracy.
You can build a place where your children can grow up without fear, without hatred and love of death. But we failed to show you that.
We have learned that it is truly a Christian idea. Muslims just cannot understand mercy, forgiveness, freedom, peace, tolerance, kindness, humility. It is beyond them. They are so wrapped up in hatred, in victimhood, in revenge and they love death so much that they are simply beyond helping.
Sad, but true.
Kay:
I suppose that Abdullah is right. We have failed to show Iraqis and Afghanis that it truly is possible to live a life in peace and harmony. We have failed to show you that you really do not have to live in a world of revenge, hatred, and conspiracy.
Abdullah may be right and wrong
You may be right and wrong.
It really depends on what "success" was supposed to look like in Iraq and Afghanistan.
In Afghanistan and Pakistan, irrespective of what all the population want and irrespective of voting, you have a minority that wishes to impose Sharia law on each country and make sure it is run as an Islamic state.
Q: Does the majority accept that?
A: Well, it is what they are familiar with, and there is partial support even if it is not total support.
And in Iraq, they also want a Islamic state, but it is the brand of Islam that matters here. WE now have a sectarian war of Sunni versus Shia.
And there are larger interests - Saudia Arabia will not sit by and watch the minority Sunni get decimated.
The USA & UK should put out and let them kill each other.
You can build a place where your children can grow up without fear, without hatred and love of death. But we failed to show you that.
Well they did not get that vision, no. But there was never a chance that they would. The pull of Islam is too strong. And with the disposal of Saddam, old scores would be settled - Shia would make sure they had their revenge on the Sunni that has persecuted them for years. And being 60-65% of the population, they would at last grab power.
This was all very likely, and I dont know why America failed to see that this was likely to happen.
We have learned that it is truly a Christian idea. Muslims just cannot understand mercy, forgiveness, freedom, peace, tolerance, kindness, humility. It is beyond them. They are so wrapped up in hatred, in victimhood, in revenge and they love death so much that they are simply beyond helping.
Muslims understand some of these concepts.
Generally "tolerance" & "humility" is beyond them. Forgiveness, Mercy, Kindness are conditional. Peace will occur when Islam reigns over all the Earth - that is what they mean by peace - no dissent from Islam. Freedom is within the limits of Allahs commands (which may be non-freedom).
"The USA & UK should put out and..."
-- from a posting just above
Talk about having sex on the brain.
I'm not the most educated person in the world , but i think anyone with some knowledge about this part of the world could not have missed the low points of islam and the muslims desire to kill anything that will not submit to their cult ways!!
Too much emphasis on everything but "LEAVE IRAQ".
No excuses needed.
Who cares about the "Victory or Lost the battle" hooey.
Just get out of iraq and we will see who wins what.
Once out of Iraq we can start the planning to fight islam where islam needs to be faught.
we can start work on ending the aid to islam.
we can start the work on ending immigration to ingrates and lay baouts and non conformers.
Why we could even then show all the other nations what we have learned about just what islam is and how to defeat it.
Leaving Iraq does not end the war on islam,thats right the war on islam.
The muslim agenda has been openly stated,no refutes by any one of legitamet status in the muslim world
Islam is surrounded just open your eyes.
There are at least two main instigators to the world threat,is this not obvious?
As far as abdulla goes WHO CARES.He is probably going crazy thinking everyone is watching him,profiling him. He is probably correct because i know i profile only because i live in reality and not a dream land.
In any case it's time to regroup and reset the target sights.If all else fails we can light up the all of the middle east like the fourth of july.The millions upon millions deserve to be protected even if it's at the cost of millions all too happy to die for allah.It is after all his will not ours.
Two new items for the menu are mecca under glass and a glazed tehran (microwaved only ....sorry).Order up.
Muslims are not supposed to kill other muslims, so they don't. Sunnis and Shi'ites are not muslims to each other, so killing those filthy apostates and rafite dogs is not only permisable, Allah gets off on it. Allahgasms... Abdallah, if you could only see Allah as I see him. Small, impotent, silly and violent at the same time. You would change your name to Harry, abandon the mosque, and plunge yourself into a life of debauchery. It's the only way you can free yourself from Allah's smallness. I know it's hard to understand what I am telling you now, but when you grow up, this wisdom will 'dawn' on you.
In the meantime, stay in school, learn something. Some day you will be a credit to your wife and children...
It really depends on what "success" was supposed to look like in Iraq and Afghanistan.
***************
Well, I think that success was supposed to be a German or Japanese type reconstruction after some shock and awe.
That just may not happen. The idealism of the Bush Administration... (golly gee willikers! can't you all just all get along??) seems to have been proven a silly daydream. (Don't go there Hugh!)
Those in Iraq we were relying upon, those who were not brainwashed with Christianity from birth, don't seem to understand the Biblical injunction to 'forget what is behind and press forward towards the goal' which is obviously a stable society in which to rear their children.
Provoslavni
Hate to agree with 'Abdullah' also but let's face
REALITY-IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN ARE UNMITIGATED DISASTERS!
You can see how 'grateful' Moslems are to blood,sweat & tears spent on their behalf by Infidels.Not to mentions billions of dollars which I imagine,has already disappeared into pockets of so called 'Democratic Iraqi Government.'
America may have won a few battles which will count no more than sand drifting away in the Desert but it's lost the WAR[& it's own way].
Bush is a fool,he would never have been elected except for his old man & close ties with Saudi Arabian funding. Not that Democrats are any better -For God's sake don't elect Hillary Clinton or U.S will be in even deeper shit.I'm not American but Rudy seems best & only honest candidate-who the f*** cares about what happened in his personal life,its a courageous Leader with principles that America needs.
Also a change in alliances.All non Muslim countries MUST UNITE to defeat Islam,which means
forgetting past rivalries with countries such as
Russia & India.
Think this will happen anyway-Jihadis flushed with what they imagine to be success will soon lauch attacks on U.S & West-their chlorine filled
bombs have been tried out in Iraq but will soon
be detonated in our streets.
Gives us a chancel to expel our so called 'Britons,Europeans & new Aussies etc' who want to murder us.
As for Fatboy Al Sadr he won't be in Bagdad,cowardly & very ambitious will be muching on his favourite lunch in a neighbouring,friendly
country,[probably Iran] directing Jihad against
the Infidels.
RE:
I don't see how we could succeed against Iran until our dependance on ME oil is resolved.
Response:
It is possible to be dependent from ME oil. Canada is now ranked as the second producer of oil. Most of its oil is from the tar sands that is found in northern Alberta. The only bane is the expense of extracting this oil. With the price of oil where it is now, it is feasible for Canada to become a major producer. Other terror free oil can be found in Mexico, Hibernia - off Newfoundland and Labrador, northern Alaska and Chukotka in Eastern Russia. If we buy oil in these areas we would not be financing terror.
oops... It should read "it is possible to be independent" from ME oil NOT dependent...
I just finished reading Gerald Posner's "Secrets of the Kingdom" regarding Saudi influence over politicians in the US. Very disturbing picture!
Yes, it's true that the only true "victory" we will ever see in the Islamofacist arena is in energy independence.
And, Guiliani is a great possibility. He has just made a major screw up, however, stating that he supports public funding for all women who want abortions and cannot afford one. Ouch! That is a no-can-do in Republican circles!
Guiliani returned a $10 million check to the man who Posner believes is the #1 Saudi influence peddler/Wahabbi pusher in American politics today: Prince Ibn Al-Walid.
Guiliani, please shut-up about abortion, sheesh! do you WANT to lose?
Also a change in alliances.All non Muslim countries MUST UNITE to defeat Islam,which means
forgetting past rivalries with countries such as
Russia & India.
********
Morgane, Russia wants us to fight the Islamists. The believe we will LOSE. That would make them very happy!
...but I do agree with you completely.
The new war is the one within our country. That is why it is imperative to get out of Iraq.
The likes of CAIR, et al, are becoming quite aggressive in their campaign against our own American way of life.
I'll never forget the video of the CAIR guy calling Peter King, an extremist, and an Islamophobe, in a heavy accent, no less!
****
Pete King - Biography
Congressman Peter T. King, a Republican, is serving his eighth term in the U.S. House of Representatives. First elected to represent New York’s Third District in 1992, Rep. King was re-elected in 2006 with more than 56% of the vote.
Rep. King is Ranking Member of the Homeland Security Committee and also serves on the Financial Services Committee. Congressman King has been a leader in the ongoing effort to have Homeland Security funding based on threat analysis and is a strong supporter of the war against international terrorism, both at home and abroad. Congressman King is co-author of the Border Protection, Antiterrorism, and Illegal Immigration Control Act of 2005 (H.R 4437) which passed the House in 2005 and is the most comprehensive legislation against illegal immigration to pass the House in two decades. Rep. King is strongly opposed to amnesty for illegal immigrants.
****
I mean, someone explain to this fellow that King is an ELECTED offical, a legislator, a member of our government! A representative of the people! Hello!
This was a test! I hope they have some real good pictures of the people in the crowd! So they can ID them after they are killed and found to be Sadr's hench-men!
Kay wrote:
"Congressman Peter T. King, a Republican, is serving his eighth term in the U.S. House of Representatives. First elected to represent New York’s Third District in 1992, Rep. King was re-elected in 2006 with more than 56% of the vote."
My Congressman, a good candidate and a good man. Similar to Hugh's proposed candidate types, with one exception.....Pete King is still alive and well.
Choose your candidates wisely in 2008.
Sadr way ahead of the game he has much bigger plans! Abdullah! He would love you-infidel! What ever you mean failure? We owed no one anything! Not even you bub! It is easy to critize when maybe you could add your prestige! You ones that critize but yet *itch because we don't do nothing. We can't be every where at the same time!!!! Why don't the people that are finding fault with America and soldiers ask the Germans and Russians and French why they are NOT doing anything!? Even the Chinese send some of those hi-tech cameras and toys to locate and communicate much better! What is wrong with those people? Same mindset as the demonstrators!?
How much longer must we stay until the "Iraqi people" become partners in peace with us in the "War on Terror." I'm sure those hundreds of thousands of peaceful Muslims burning US flags are eager to take back their peaceful religion from the small number of extremists who hijacked Islam.
And what about the Bush administration's response? Well at least they have the freedom to voice their opinion.
Yeah, we're steadily securing victory aren't we?
Even Dr.Quincy had more humanity than a few of these people! Drueling,, ah,,ohh if I can just get to the body!! Sitting on the side lines waiting for a downfall and I told you so! You make as much cents as a peso! They should go find people who think like them! Spies!
How many miracles will it take till it is an act of God? Ye who is without faith! Victory what do you want? Wave a wond and wallah! These people demonstrating are most likely Iranians! Definitely militia! Most likely their puppets and the QUD's waiting to kill! Like a bunch of whaling kids while you are trying to do something! Why? Why? Then they are a teen. Told you so, told you .. please let us fight this war! and SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!! I don't want to be peace partners with Iran. They speak of peace of the THIRD KIND! Peace in the ground!!
Think about this Victory; if the illegals are made legal to have citizenship so are all their relatives, aunts and uncles, ect., can come too and all can collect Social Security! So that too has set people against eachother!
"Similar to Hugh's proposed candidate types, with one exception.....Pete King is still alive and well."
-- from a posting above
The fact that Millicent Fenwick, Henry Jackson, and Fiorello La Guardia are all dead should not preclude them from being supported. Dead or alive, they remain examples of what elected officials should be.
Spot on Morgane.
" let's face REALITY-IRAQ & AFGHANISTAN ARE UNMITIGATED DISASTERS!"
TRUE
"You can see how 'grateful' Moslems are to blood,sweat & tears spent on their behalf by Infidels."
And those Neo Cons thought they'd be dancing in the streets. Where oh where have the neo cons been living? My God, in my high school you watched where you walked and who you looked at. The other side of the world with a culture and history we know nothing about?!? I swear the Neo Cons are NUTS
"Bush is a fool,he would never have been elected except for his old man & close ties with Saudi Arabian funding. Not that Democrats are any better"
TRUE
"All non Muslim countries MUST UNITE to defeat Islam,which means forgetting past rivalries with countries such as Russia & India."
TRUE
Morgane, you should be doing policy in Washington. Anyone but the gaggle of Humpty Dumptys we've got at the moment.
Our mission is complete. Everything we went into Iraq for has been checked from the list. The current conflict is not our affair as it is not "us against them" as far as the current fight goes.
A lightning withdraw of some forces to prevent sneak attacks from our heals, others can be reduced without "others" needing to know.
The war continues, and the need for the next action to be planned should be underway now.
It may be we will have to revisit Iraq in one form or another, the troups must be kept on alert for deployment there, or elsewhere.
We have learned much over the last few years, and may we remember everything, good and bad.
All this Shia vs Sunni fighting reminds me of the Henry Kissinger comment re: The Iran-Iraq War, "Too bad they can't both lose."
Backing Saddam in that war was a part of the (cynical) US strategy to this end.
We should not encourage this instability, but the truth is that there is not much we can do about these old hatreds and resentments. Our Iraq experience illustrates this. The US needs less engagement with and far less dependance on the Muslim world.
Until these people reform their civilization we should shun them; however if they attack our interests they must be deterred by whatever means necessary.
And a last note. From this article
http://www.thestate.com/372/story/30514.html
is a tour de force character demolition of those preening ignoramuses - I know more than a few - who thought it'd be cakewalk.
"First came the "monumental ignorance" of those in Washington pushing for war in 2002 without "the faintest idea" of Iraq's realities. "More perceptive people knew instinctively that the invasion of Iraq would open up the great fissures in Iraqi society," he writes. What followed was the "rank amateurism and swaggering arrogance"
Perfectly put.
"monumental ignorance , rank amateurism and swaggering arrogance"
Oh, that is SOOOOOOO true.
Kay, Prince Al Walid is actually trying to modernize the Kingdom and make it more Westernized. He is the first to employ females in his office and will be the first Saudi to make a movie, which is illegal in his country. Giuliani returned the $10 million because of the Israeli statements Al Walid made when presenting the check. The statements referred to us cutting our support for Israel.
I also have Posner's book but haven't had a chance to read it yet. However I did read House of Bush/House of Saud by the other Liberal. The problem with these books is the authors are anti-Conservative and write their books with a left wing slant, distorting the truth as in Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11. All US Administrations have had close relations with Saudi Arabia since they discovered oil, NOT just the Bush family. In my past friendships with Liberals they base their opinions on falsehoods derived from websites like moveon.org which lie outright or distort the truth.
The problem with Iraq comes more from our own Media than anything else. They seem to bamboozle the Public about the nature of everything Islamic.
The Press reports about this demonstration is a classic example. Outside the reported new found freedom to protest in Iraq. Nothing else is said about it. Considering the protest was all anti- American, It fit naturally into the Medias own Anti-American Agenda. Better to place the blame on "Bushes failed Policy" in Iraq than to point out the Ungrateful response of those very peoples liberation.
There are major benefits for the West in general, that would go a long way to helping the average "John Doe" understand the threat we face.
However, the MSM will never get past the PC Multiculturalism it is so infested with. This grip the MSM has on the population will never change until some strong public figure can stand before the Public and justify, unequivically, why they suffer from Islamofobia.
I support the surge in principle as a last chance for Muslims to set aside their differences and find a way to live in peace. It may have only a 5% chance of happening(if that). So when all else fails. We are in a position to point out to the American people just how ill informed they have been.
The MSM would never allow any Public Figure the freedom of giving a blanket condemnation of Islam itself as the real problem. So the old "Hijackers" of the Peaceful religion and the Myth of "moderate Muslims" was born. It wasn't PC to condemn 1.2 Billion people out of hand. The whole "Moderate" nonsense was probably more for the Muslims themselves to address the Militants in their own House. Allowing some breathing room to correct their own problems.
By now, the deafening silence of the "moderates" needs to be exploited for what it really is, Non existent.
If the tenets of Multiculturalism were Valid. Then Freeing Iraq should have been a slam dunk. Until the MSM is forced to stop Its Bamboozling the Indoctrinated into a Classless Servitude. No progress will ever be made to blunt the spread of Islam and all the evil that follows in its path.
It is not a question of just leaving Iraq, but how we frame the reasons we are leaving. I find it very difficult to support the Demoncrats call for leaving Iraq simply because there are no parameters with their position other than to just leave. A simple unconditional withdrawal from Iraq will never serve the long term interest of the US. It will never lead to any measure necessary to defend ourselves. The whole endeavor will only be cast as a Failure with all it attendant baggage. Worst yet, it will open the Floodgates of Immigration from the Middle East as the Demoncrats will open them wide.
We need to shape the battlefield. Not them.
Better for us to have Bush wash his hands of Iraq and frame the reason of their unwillingness for Democracy, than to have the Demoncrats just tell us to run away.
History shows that the Majority of casualties in any battle are suffered by the force that breaks and runs away. Iraq is just one battlefield in the War with Islam.
"Outside the reported new found freedom to protest in Iraq."
...Muslims have never needed new found freedom to protest.....and their protests are seldom peaceful....
things I like to read:
"Two witnesses including a local journalist said Apache attack helicopters hovering low over the Sunni insurgent stronghold of Fadhil in Baghdad repeatedly fired rockets at buildings where gunmen had holed up."
.....guess who wins!.......