Kosovo's top Islamic leader asks Detroit Muslims for support

With the terrorists now being flushed out of Iraq as the majority wants America out of Iraq, now the coming break point is the Balkans as it historically has been in starting world wars.

If Americans simply would have seen the Iraq policy through, were not malevolent in attacking President Bush and had not all acted armchair leader, this coming flash point would never have occurred.

All of this is the responsibility now of the majority who discounted Iraq and the President.

The last thing America needed was a Muslim tap root out of Europe directly into America with a malevolent Russia backing the Serbs. Greece and Turkey the border flash points.
President Bush had the terrorists and war contained. Now it only a matter of time before it pulls America into a world war.

'TERNAVA'S U.S TRIP SPONSORED BY U.S STATE DEPARTMENT.'
Well,the morons would wouldn't they. Being so SURE Kosovo Albanians are so SECULAR & DEMOCRATIC-be interesting to see if Britain[& U.S] will meekly hand over large tracts of land
to Muslims when they become the MAJORITY...
As have reiterated many times, neither Britain or
U.S[ or their paid cronies] have the RIGHT to give a Sovereign State's land to anyone-this contravenes the U.N Charter for starters.
Western countries which advocate this are setting a dangerous precedent which almost certainly will backfire on them. Not to mention setting up a Terrorists springboard in the heart
of Europe.
When Iraq & Afghanistan are boiling over-U.S suffering attacks on every front-the Serbs will move to take back what is rightfully theirs.
There will be no peace in the Balkans but there will be another war...

Recruiting them to go to kosovo isn't exactly what they have in mind...more like an "upcoming festivity".

From the article:

"Ternava and his assistant said that Kosovo's Muslim community is tolerant and modern.

Hmmmmm. Strange definition of "modern". Kosovo - and Albania - is now consumed in the code of Lek Dukagjini; a medieval tribal code that regulates reveng killing.

Charming. They're almost entering the 17th century.

And "tolerant" ?

Well, the Muslim Kosovo Albanians were hated and feared by EVERY ethnic minority in Kosovo when Belgrade ruled. Everyone. The Christian Kosovo Albanians were loyal to Belgrade and many fought with great bravery in the Serb security forces. When the Serbs left in 99, the first thing the Muslim Kosovo Albanians was to torch out practically the entire Jewish community.

Strange tolerance and modernity.

Good to see that Ternava is more than happy to speak to that bastion of terror, CAIR.

Showed their true colour on that score.

And this quote from Mr. Modernity and tolerance himself:4 "thousands of people…went as shahids (martyrs) during all these sufferings" that Kosovo went through"

A bit like WW2 Nazi goon, izetbegovich who was buried in the same "martyrs" cemetary as his falledn Mujahideen. Or these Bosnian stromtroopers.

http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/images/BosniaJihadi.jpg

You're actually making sense this time.
Accuracy, substance, no militant spin, save that of well-deserved sentiments even we echo.
Excellent. Keep it up.

;-)

PS- You too, Robert...good article.

Absolute BS.

This guy should have never been allowed to enter the US.

Fred Allen Medford fro Jihad Watch Germany had many articles on his site about Kosovo/Bosnia/Albania being 'Heroin & Jihad' rebublics. I would hasten to add that the jihadi's that settled in these places will not rest before they're either totally defeated or until they're in control.

They have stockpiles of weapons and they're building mosques faster than you can grow mushrooms.

True sheikh,

Problem is, thanks to political correctness instead of tried-&-true common sense, we're forbidden to profile in any way (which is why we're forced to watch as grandma jones gets frisked like a potential terrorist & islamists walk right through without so much as a glance-seen it myself), which is why our "security" is a colossal joke.
If we choose to use common sense, we're sent to a re-education camp...of course, here they're called "sensitivity training".

Sad.

hopefully "Big Brother" is watching who is meeting is islamist!

hopefully "Big Brother" is watching who is meething this islamist.

Lame Cherry- Stop defending Bush. The idiot is welcoming thousands of Saudi students into this country every year like it's Sept 10th. He's a lost cause.

Bingo ...

And those Saudi students are MOSTLY men, almost certainly Wahhabi -- and will include no Ismailis, no Shi'a, no non-Wahhabi Muslims of any kind. And the few women who will come will have to have a Saudi chaperon living with them, because they have to ABIDE BY WAHHABI CUSTOM WHILE THEY ARE HERE ... they may not go out without permission, they may not dress in any American style, they have to have permission from a male chaperon for everything they do.

So, they have none of the civil rights or basic freedoms guaranteed under the Constitution. They are, in fact, prisoners.

The U.S. government needs to stop giving visas to people who violate the civil rights of their citizenry ... and the basic intention of which is to gain control of Islam on American campuses and make sure it STAYS Wahhazbi.

Roughie, if the Europe/US hadn't stop the Serbs in Bosnia, they have exterminated or dominated every other ethnic group in the Balkans. We gave them YEARS to stop it, and they didn't. A lesson for tyrants.

I wonder whether they paid any tribute to the three muslim SS divisions who tried to exterminate all the serbs and jews in Yugoslavia during world war II: the kosovoalbanian SS Skanderbeg and the Bosnian SS Handschar and SS Kama.

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_collaboration.htm

It's incredible how morgaan sinclair comes to this site to repeat the same lies over and over again how "the Serbs tried to exterminate every other ethnic groups in the Balkans". The simple and undisputed fact is that all orthodox Christian nations in the Balkans are allied with the Serbs against the muslims: the Montenegrins, Macedonians, Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians were all part of the great alliance with the Serbs that drove the Turks away and liberated the Balkans. So when exactly did the Serbs tried to exterminate all those nations when they helped those nations to liberate themselves from muslim rule????

The Roma fought on the Serb side against the albanians. Even the non-albanian muslims in kosovo prefer the serbs over albanian rule: the Cherkess preferred to be evacuated to Russia rather than to live under fellow muslim albanian rule. All of albanias neighbours: the Macedonians, Montenegrins and Greeks have never fought against the serbs only against the albanians who are trying to exterminate all non-muslims in the Balkans.

European Crusader:

The Montenegrins just voted them selves out of "Serbia and Montenegro" and cited ongoing threats from Serbs during the whole process.

The Macedonians suffered attacks from the Serbs during the wars of the 1990s and refused to be part of "Greater Serbia" when it was "offered" to them.

I don't particularly find the return of the Cherkess to south Russian, from which they were deliberately transplanted by Soviet authorities 80 years ago surprising, as there is something thinking that they were complicit with the Serb aggression towards its neighbors in the wars of the 1990s.

With regard to Greece, dream on. From Hellenic Resources Network, 1999, http://www.hri.org/forum/intpol/sitil15.html

Greece, a member of both NATO and the European Union, which enjoys friendly ties to Serbia, has forcefully condemned Milosevic's ethnic cleansing campaign. At the same time, the Greek government is defying domestic opposition from extremist groups to keep open the port facilities in Thessaloniki, through which essential reinforcements such as military vehicles and logistical supplies are being transported to NATO peacekeepers now stationed in F.Y.R. Macedonia. NATO Secretary General Javier Solana has not ruled out initiatives by NATO members other than the U.S. to strike the right deal to secure a just end to the war. Greece's more impartial stance offers the opportunity to deliver a clear and blunt message to Belgrade on behalf of the alliance: the end of the war is a decision wholly dependent upon Milosevic.

So I suppose you can continue to blither fiction on this board if you like the Macedonians, Montenegrins and Greeks, but one simple post of the facts always exposes your inflamamatory, self-authored "history" of events in the Balkans as the self-creation it is.

It is interesting that in trying to exonerate Serb butchery toward non-Serb one must ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS try to dig into the past to find something somebody else did to them in order to justify it. No sale. The Bosnian SS unit -- which famously got to France and mutinied against the Nazis without firing a shot -- is always brought up, but it's refusal to fight never mentioned!

And it is fascinating that you tell us that the Montenegrins, Macedonians and Greeks have always fought with the Serbs when the fact is the Montenegrins refuse to live in a country with them, the Macedonians resisted them with every ounce of their energy, and the Greeks (despite many religious and cultural ties) knew exactly who Milosevic was and laid blame for the death, pain, dishonor, rape, torture and unrest squarely at the ethnic supremacist tyrant's feet.

And it must have been hard for the Greeks to do. They do love the Serbian people. Their churches have imnmensely close ties.

But as serves their good reputation, they would not tolerate a Hitler among their own, a lesson the Serbs should take from them now. It is not the fault of the Serb people -- who knew little of what Milosevic and the paramilitaries were doing until after the war. It will be a mistake if they try to continue to disallow the democratic will of other ethnic now, groups that cannot be expected to accept the rule of a people whose leadership tried to exterminate.

It is unfortunate if Serbs cannot remain living among the Albanians the Albanians in Kosovo, but I think that is their choice. The low Serb population in Kosovo was effected almost entirely by the fact that Milosevic told Serbs to leave Kosovo because what he planned to do to the Albannians was going to a war crime he didn't want suffered by "his own". He also didn't want the Serb people to see what he was going to do.

And when he did it, the gruesome, debased violence he employed called down an airstrike that was begged for by the Kosovars who remained, death by friendfly fire being at that point far the lesser agony than what was going on.

The Germans, whose war against the Serbs was an attempted extermination as deadly and inhuman as that it carried out against the Jews, offer a lesson to Serbs now. Back away from and disavow the tyrant who ruined the reputation of a good people. Lay wreaths at the graves of the ones killed by the tyrants minions. And preach peace, not war, in the times to come.

The German people have remarkably recovered from the nightmare that was Hitler. And the Serb people can recover from the nightmare which was Milosevic if they will maintain calm, allow others to chart their own course, and extend friendship completely devoid of violence and attempts to control in the future.

And no amnount of lying about what went on, either by the Serb government or by Serb propagandists on website like this one, will recover for the Serb people the honor and dignity that is theirs by history and human right. The Serbs are one among many ethnic groups in the Balkans. The Balkans are not theirs to declare their own by ethnic supremacy. It is a simple, but difficult, lesson for a proud people, but it is one that must be learned.

Serbs are not better than the rest of the people in the world, as Germans were not. It is not their right to exterminate, deport, gendercide, genocide, torture and rape those of another ethnic origin or another religion.

And the attempt to conflate Serb aggression with "fighting Islamic terrorism" is an egregious lie beneat the dignity of the Serb people. In fact, if you want to go the religious route on this one, you will have to say that the massacres of non-Serb ethnic groups in the Balkans is directly related to Serb Orthodox Church blessings of paramilitary murders like the ones who carried out Srebrenica, the absolution for which crime was given to the murdered AHEAD OF THE EVENT by Serb Orthodox priests who were filmed doing it.

And the Serb Orthodox Church issued a direct and total condemnation of the rite the minute they saw the film. Just as Kosovar Albanian Muslims condemn Wahhabis and radical Islam and act against with every power available to them -- deporting 450 of them last month and refusing takeovers of their mosques.

I would suggest people of peace on both cultures grandly outnumber ethnic supremacists among the Serbs and religious extremists among the Kosovars. But at least the religious extremists in Kosovo are actually coming from Saudi Arabia; the extremists among the Serbs are home-grown.

And I would suggest that people of peace on both sides try something new: making it work as well for the other as it does for themselves.

That, at least, seems always to work.

The creation of a Moslem state in Europe is the Clintons' crowning achievement.

Their reward for this will be the White House, and a second stint at the command of the American military. Who knows what stunt they have in store this time around.

Well at least we don't have to wonder if the State Dpt is assimilated into Islam

All realated to Kosovo -- Clinton, Albright, Blair, and many others are proud of their new islamic state in the heart of Europe; paid for by the US taxpayer.

No wonder terrorists are honored guests in America while American citizens themselves are pooh-hooed and dismissed by their "elected" leaders.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49604

the might and the resources of U.S. diplomacy are being used to tear away a Christian European nation's spiritual and historical cradle and hand it over to a terrorist-breeding, white-slavery peddling, heroin-pushing narco-Islamic camarilla in Kosovo, which has, by all accounts, made the province into "Afghanistan in Europe."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55094
Pelosi leads a party and an ideology that believes America is usually wrong, especially when it uses force to protect its vital national interests and the security of its people.
It's not wrong, of course, when it uses military force for completely capricious reasons that have nothing to do with national security – missions like Kosovo. In fact, if those actions actually undermine the long-range goals of the U.S. by supporting its enemies, all the better.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55087

JERUSALEM – It was revealed yesterday a top U.S. Democratic congressman last week met a leader of Egypt's main opposition group, which has strong ties to Hamas and seeks to impose an Islamic theocracy throughout the Middle East and eventually around the world.

Radical Islam is the problem: moderate Islam is the solution. -- Dr. Daniel Pipes

morgaan sinclair:

The Montenegrins and Macedonians voted for independance just like the Slovaks voted themselves out of Czechoslovakia and the Ukrainians and 13 other nations left the Soviet Union. And Quebec has repeatedly tried to vote itself out of Canada and soon Scotland will try to vote itself out of Britain and many (if not the majority) Basques and Catalonians wish to leave Spain and Flanders wants to leave Belgium. So there is nothing special about Montenegro seeking independance, especially since it was an independent state before it joined yugoslavia.

The fact is that the Montenegrins and Macedonians have never fought a war against the Serbs and the Serbs have never tried to exterminate them. The fact is that the Macedonians fought a war against albanians in 2001. That is the last war that has been fought in former yugoslavia so far. I don't even know how to respond to your claim that the Cherkess were transplanted by Soviet authorities to Kosovo, because it has not happened in the real world only in your imagination.

Anyway I'm so sick and tired of you writing the same lies over and over again and your constant excuses for the muslim SS divisions so I'm going to challenge you:
You claim that the Serbs have exterminated every other ethnic group in the Balkans. I've mentioned 5 specific ethnic groups in the Balkans: the Montenegrins, Macedonians, Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians. I think you should ask the embassies of those countries whether the Serbs tried to exterminate their ethnic groups (and when) and if it turns out that they didn't you will stop posting on jihadwatch, so I don't have to read the same lies again and if all five (you wrote EVERY OTHER) respond that the Serbs in fact did try to exterminate them, then I'll stop posting. Is that a deal?

Radical Islam is the problem: moderate Islam is the solution. -- Dr. Daniel Pipes

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 29, 2007 10:59 AM

Some one uttered something like this on "24" thats when I stopped watching.

Radical Islam is the problem: moderate Islam is the solution. -- Dr. Daniel Pipes

Islam is the problem; the absence of Islam is the solution. -- Dr. Alarmed Pig Farmer

So European Crusader, answer me this: How do you account for the fact that VOTES FOR INDEPENDENCE by Bosnians, Kosovars, and others during the 1990s were met by military aggression from Serbia, which had basically declared the former Yugoslavia not something like "The Balkan Confederation"? They declared it Greater SERBia. They didn't, for example, get generous and call it "Greater Bosnia" or "Greater Montenegro" or "Greater Croatia" or "Greater Romania" or "Greater Albania". They called it Greater SERBIA. And anybody who didn't want to play got creamed.

Don't think so?

Then just read the following (seems like I have to post this every time) which makes clear that various votes of independence, who you now seem to claim are just peachy and AOK with Serbia, are followed by immediate WAR. And that war was carried out by Serbia, which seized the entire military materiel of the Yugoslavia to put under siege all the non-Serb peoples of Yugoslavia (to whom the materiel equally belonged, leaving the Kosovars to make blockades out of the furniture from their homes).

So ... not the votes for independence and the sieges that follow.

BTW, you don't seem to want me to ask the Croats, Bosnians and Kosovars if the Serbs tried to exterminate them .... Hmmmm ... why would that be?

June 1989
Serbs gather at the site of the Battle of Kosovo to commemorate its 600th anniversary. President Slobodan Milosevic, recently elected, uses the occasion to promote Serbian nationalism and strip Kosovo of all autonomy.

Jan. 1990
The Yugoslav Communist Party splits along ethnic lines
Deadly riots in Kosovo result in Yugoslav Army intervention.

Feb. 1990
Curfew imposed in Kosovo. Yugoslav troops deployed.
Multi-party system adopted in Bosnia-Herzegovina republic.

Apr. 1990
A pro-independence coalition wins in Slovenia.

May 1990
HDZ Party (Croatian Democratic Union) wins elections against the communists. HDZ leader, Franjo Tudjman, advocates a Yugoslav confederation of sovereign states.

June 1990
Serbia referendum in opposition to ethnic autonomy for Kosovo and Vojvodina and in favor of retaining one-party state.
HDZ proposes that Constitution in Croatia be amended to allow for a confederated system of sovereign states.

July 1990
Albanian delegates of the parliament of Kosovo declare independence from Yugoslavia. Belgrade responds by banning the Kosovo shadow government led by Ibrahim Rugova and shutting down or taking over local media.
The Slovenian legislature declares Slovenia a sovereign state.
The League of Communists of Serbia and the Socialist Alliance of the Working People of Serbia mere to become the Socialist Party of Serbia. Slobodan Milosevic is elected President by the delegates in a landslide.
Croatia adopts the proposed amendments to the Constitution which replace the flag and declare that Croatia would no longer be a socialist republic.
The Bosnian legislature adopts constitutional amendments declaring Bosnia-Herzegovina a democratic state with equality for all its ethnic groups.

Aug. 1990 ... As Croatia's move towards independence seems likely, ethnic Serbs in the Krajina area of Croatia argue for autonomy from Croatia. Serbs declare the Serbian National Council as the authority for Serbs in Croatia.

Oct. 1990 ... The Serbian National Council proclaims autonomy for Krajina.

Nov. 1990 ... A Macedonian party advocating a confederation of sovereign states comes to power in the first multi-party elections.
Bosnia-Herzegovina holds its first multi-party elections. Nationalistic parties win.

Dec. 1990 ... Milosevic wins the presidency of Yugoslavia. Ethnic Albanians boycott the elections.
The new Croatian Constitution recognizes ethnic Serbs as a minority, but does not grant rights to minority groups.
In a plebiscite in Slovenia, nearly 90% of voters favor sovereignty.

Jan. 1991 ... Macedonia elects a new President and adopts pro-sovereignty legislation. Slovenia announces that it will start legislative procedures towards independence.

Feb. 1991 ... Tensions increase in Croatian territories of Slavonia and Baranja where there are large numbers of ethnic Serb residents. The Serbian National Council declares that Krajina will remain in Yugoslavia should Croatia secede.

Mar. 1991 ... Milosevic orders a crackdown on opposition protests in Serbia.
Krajina Serbs declare autonomy from Croatia and are recognized by Milosevic. Armed conflict underway between ethnic Croats and ethnic Serbs in Croatia.
Serbia assumes authority over the dissolved Kosovo legislature.
The European Community, in response to the increased tensions in Yugoslavia, declares that it supports diplomacy and political dialogue over force and promotes unity and democracy in Yugoslavia.

Apr. 1991 ... Bosnian Serbs begin a war in a quest for their own ethnically pure republic. At a meeting of the six Presidents of Yugoslav republics, they agree that each republic should hold referendums on confederation or federation.

May 1991 ... Serbs refuse to accept a Croat president under the terms of Yugoslavia's rotating presidency. Referendum on separation of Croatia held. Over 90% votes for sovereignty and independence. Krajina Serbs boycott the referendum.


June 1991 ... Macedonia and Bosnia-Herzegovina unsuccessfully propose a Yugoslav commonwealth of sovereign republics. Slovenia and Croatia declare independence from Yugoslavia. Krajina, a region with a large number of ethnic Serbs, declares independence from Croatia and has backing of Yugoslav People's Army. Yugoslav army tanks and helicopters attack Slovenia. After the Slovenian militia captures 2,000 soldiers, it trades their release for the right to control its own borders. The war in Slovenia lasts a total of a week. Fighting between Serbian and Croatian militias is more severe, especially in Krajina, Baraja, and Slavonia. The U.S. states support for unity and democracy of Yugoslavia and sovereignty determined through mutual agreement rather than unilateral secession. In light of the situation, the European Community freezes economic assistance to Yugoslavia.

July 1991 ... Slovenian protests in favor of independence.

Aug. 1991 ... The Yugoslav army calls off intervention in Slovenia's independence.
Meanwhile, Yugoslav tanks and aircraft drive refugees from Vukovar and Dubrovnik. Fighting escalates. First international monitors arrive in Croatia.

Sept. 1991 ... The UN Security Council enacts an arms embargo against the former Yugoslav republics and an economic embargo on Serbia and Montenegro.
The European Community hosts a Conference on Yugoslavia in the Hague. Ceasefire between Serbia and Croatia signed. In spite of this, fighting continues.
In a referendum in Kosovo, ethnic Albanians vote for independence.

Oct. 1991 ... Croat and Muslim parties in Bosnia unite against Bosnian Serbs and plan for a referendum on the future of Bosnia-Herzegovina. President of Croatia Franjo Tudjman and President of Serbia Slobodan Milosevic again sign a cease-fire. However Yugoslav Army remains in Croatia. The Conference on Yugoslavia reconvenes in the Hague. Co-Chairman Lord Carrington submits a proposal which supports independence and recognition for former republics and protection of rights of ethnic minorities. Serbia refuses to agree to the proposal even after changes are made, on the grounds that it does not support the unity of Yugoslavia. Albania's parliament recognizes Kosovo as an independent republic.
The Bosnian Muslim government declares itself a sovereign state.

Nov. 1991 ... 90% of Bosnian Serbs vote to remain within Yugoslavia.
Macedonian legislature proposes new Constitution declaring Macedonia sovereign and independent.

Dec. 1991 ... Germany recognizes Croatia and Slovenia. European Community decides not to apply economic sanctions to Bosnia-Herzegovina, Macedonia, Slovenia or Croatia. UN Special Envoy Vance's peace plan would provide UN peacekeepers to Eastern Slavonia, Western Slavonia, and Krajina following a ceasefire and withdrawal of troops and disbanding of irregulars, but offers no specific solutions to the ethnic conflict. The Bosnian Serbs adopt a Resolution to form the Serbian Republic (Republika Srpska) of Bosnia- Herzegovina within the framework of Yugoslavia. Ethnic Serbs in Krajina, Slavonia, Baranja and West Srem declare their own republic.

Jan. 1992 ... UN adopts resolution to send monitors and ultimately peacekeepers. 27 more countries and European Union recognize Croatia as an independent sovereign state. Temporary ceasefire in Croatia.

Mar. 1992 ... Bosnia votes for independence in spite of most Bosnian Serbs voting against secession. Bosnian Serbs set up their own Parliament and local militias. The fighting in Croatia expands to Bosnia.

Apr. 1992 ... The United States recognizes Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina as independent sovereign states. Bosnian Serb forces start to drive Muslims out of small villages; many of these refugees flee to the larger Bosnian cities of Zepa, Srebrenica, Tuzla and Sarajevo. Siege of Sarajevo begins.

May 1992 ... Croatia accepted as a full member in the United Nations.
International sanctions against Serbia and Montenegro, the two remaining republics of Yugoslavia. Ethnic Albanian writer Ibrahim Rugova is elected president of Kosovo in an election unsanctioned by the Yugoslav government.

June 1992 ... Croatia joins the war in Bosnia on the side of the Muslims.

Aug. 1992 ... UN Protection Force (UNPROFOR) is authorized to use force to deliver humanitarian supplies to Bosnia, which is now 2/3 under Serbian domination. First international reports of "ethnic cleansing," rapes, concentration camps, and mass executions in Bosnia.

Sept. 1992 ... Serbia expelled from the United Nations.

Oct. 1992 ... Serb and ethnic Albanian leaders in Kosovo hold peace talks.
The UN imposes a no-fly zone over Bosnia.

Jan. 1993 ... Croatia launches an offensive in Krajina. Geneva Peace Talks underway. Under discussion is the Vance-Owen Plan, which would partition Bosnia and provide for a rotating presidency, but require no Serb troop withdrawals.

Feb. 1993 ... U.S. begins airlift of aid supplies to Bosnia.

Mar. 1993 ... War between Muslims and Croats in Bosnia.

May 1993 ... Bosnian Serbs reject Vance-Owen Plan. Some cooperation between Croatia and the Bosnian Serbs.

June 1993 ... Bosnian Serb President Radovan Karadzic proposes several partition deals that would leave Serbs about half of Bosnia. The Bosnian Muslim government rejects this plan. UN declares "safe areas" in Sarajevo, Tuzla, Bihac, Zepa, Gorazde, and Srebrenica.

July 1993 ... Krajina Serbs vote to join the Bosnian Serbs in "Greater Serbia."

Sept. 1993 ... Bosnian Muslims reject Owen-Stoltenberg Peace Plan to separate Bosnia into Muslim, Croat and Serb sections.

Feb. 1994 ... A Bosnian Serb mortar shell kills 68 people in a Sarajevo market. The attack increases international attention to Bosnia and western nations threaten air strikes if the Bosnian Serbs do not stop shelling Sarajevo. NATO shoots down four Serb aircraft.

Mar. 1994 ... Croatian and Muslim Bosnians agree on guidelines for a federated Bosnia. Krajina Serbs sign a ceasefire and zones of separation between Serbs and Croats.

May 1994 ... Western countries start air strikes against Bosnian Serbs, but end them as UN Peacekeepers are taken hostage by the Bosnian Serb army as "human shields."

Nov. 1994 ... U.S. ends embargo on arms to Bosnia.

Dec. 1994 ... Muslim-Croat Federation and Bosnian Serbs sign cease fire.

May 1995 ... Croatia seizes Western Slavonia. Krajina Serbs shell Zagreb.
Fighting escalates in Bosnia.

July 1995 ... Bosnian Serb forces enter the "safe areas" of Srebrenica and Zepa in eastern Bosnia. In what is considered the largest massacre since World War II, as many as 8,000 Bosnian Muslims are killed by Bosnian Serbs under the command of Ratko Mladic. Croatia expels ethnic Serbs from Krajina. Nearly 70 ethnic Albanians in Kosovo are sentenced to jail for setting up a parallel police force.

Aug. 1995 ... Bosnian Muslim and Bosnian Croat forces fight Bosnian Serbs in Bihac. Serbs driven out of western Bosnia and Krajina. Serbian authorities settle several hundred Croatian Serb refugees in Kosovo.

Sept. 1995 ... NATO airstrikes against the Bosnian Serbs. Serbian forces withdraw weapons from around Sarajevo.

Oct. 1995 ... Ceasefire declared in Bosnia.

Nov. 1995 ... Proximity Talks between the Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Yugoslavia held in Dayton, Ohio.

Dec. 1995 ... The Dayton Peace Agreement is signed in Paris. The plan gives 51% of the Bosnian territory to Muslim-Croatian Federation and 49% to Bosnian Serbs. It also authorizes a right for refugees to return to pre-war homes and an international force (IFOR) to implement the peace plan. With regard to Croatia, the Dayton Plan recognizes the country's pre-war borders (including Eastern Slavonia).

Mar. 1996 ... The UN ends its embargo on small arms for the region. The United States approves arms and equipment for Bosnia.

Apr. 1996 ... Bosnian Muslim and Croat officials sign a Federation accord to jointly collect customs duties and have a common flag. Yugoslavia and Macedonia establish diplomatic relations. The international community pledges to raise $1.2 billion for the reconstruction of Bosnia. Bosnian Serbs refuse to attend as part of a delegation with Muslims and Croats.

May 1996 ... The International War Crimes tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia opens in the Hague. This is the first war crimes tribunal since the Nuremberg Trials after World War II. In Belgrade, workers protest economic conditions in Serbia, as the Milosevic government insists that IMF funds must be linked to recognition of Serbia as the only successor of the former Yugoslavia.
Radovan Karadzic officially steps aside as the leader of the Bosnian Serbs. Biljana Plavsic becomes the new leader. UN officials confirm the statement of Bosnian Prime Minister Muratovic that Bosnian Serbs are expelling Muslims from the Teslic area in central Bosnia.

July 1996 ... Leaders of Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia sign an agreement to reduce arsenals of heavy weapons. The Bosnian Federation approves the merger of the Muslim and Croat armies. Mass graves discovered at Srebrenica.

Aug. 1996 ... Serbia and Croatia agree to establish diplomatic relations.

Sep. 1996 ... Bosnia holds the first national elections since the end of the war. Bosnian Muslim Alija Izetbegovic becomes the first chairman of the new, rotating presidency to be shared with Serbian Momcilo Krajisnik and Croat Kresimir Zubak.

Dec. 1996 ... After Milosevic anulls local election results, Serbs take to the streets in protests.

Jan. 1997 ... The Implementation Force (IFOR) is renamed the Stabilization Force (SFOR). The Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), a banned ethnic Albanian militia group suspected in car bombing of Serb rector of Pristina University. KLA leader killed by police.

Mar. 1997 ... Four people injured when a bomb explodes in the center of Pristina, Kosovo.

July 1997 ... The War Crimes Tribunal convicts Serbian police officer, Dusan Tadic to 20 years in prison for crimes against humanity. Tadic is the first to be tried in the Tribunal. He appeals the conviction.

Sep. 1997 ... Bosnia holds municipal elections which are the first to allow voting in pre-war municipalities.

Feb. 1998 ... U.S. makes limited economic concessions to Serbia.

Mar. 1998 ... Battle in village of Prekaz in Kosovo with between 20-50 ethnic Albanians killed. U.S. ends concessions. Ethnic Albanians vote for president and parliament, but elections are declared illegals by Serbia.

Apr. 1998 ... Serbian referendum opposes Western intervention in Kosovo.
U.S. and Western Europe set new sanctions against Serbia, including freezing of assets abroad.

May 1998 ... Peace talks between ethnic Albanians and Serbs even as fighting continues.

July 1998 ... Kosovo Albanians inaugurate their outlawed parliament. Serbian police order legislators to disperse.

Aug. 1998 ... Serbian forces capture Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) stronghold of Junik. UN calls for a ceasefire in Kosovo.

Sept. 1998 ... NATO issues ultimatum to Serbia to stop violence in Kosovo or face air strikes. UN condemns massacres of Kosovar Albanians by Serbian troops.
NATO threatens airstrikes in spite of Russian protests.
Serbian forces appear to pull back, NATO halts threat, and UN authorizes monitors to ensure violence has ended.

Jan. 1999 ... Violence escalates in Kosovo. International monitors discover the bodies of at least 45 Albanians in Racak in southern Kosovo. UN war crimes prosecutor Louise Arbour is refused entry to Kosovo to probe killings.
NATO once again threatens airstrikes.

Feb. 1999 ... Rambouillet Peace Talks held in France between Serbs and Albanians. Kosovo Albanians conditionally accept ceasefire and draft accord in exchange for broad autonomy for Kosovo. Serbs accept conditional autonomy. In spite of small success, Serb forces expand in Kosovo.

Mar. 1999 ... Peace talks resume in Paris. The Kosovar Albanians sign the accord, but Serbia rejects international peacekeepers on their territory and boycotts the event. International monitors withdraw from Kosovo. In spite of last-minute diplomatic efforts to seek a peaceful solution, Serbia continues to reject any talk of NATO peacekeepers in Kosovo. NATO launches air war against Yugoslav military targets. Russia suspends cooperation with NATO. Yugoslavia breaks off diplomatic relations with United States, France, Germany and Britain.
Hundreds of thousands of ethnic Albanian refugees flee to Albania, Macedonia, and Montenegro.

Apr. 1999 ... Refugee crisis in Albania and Macedonia continue at levels as much as 20,000 people entering per day. Yugoslavia closes refugee exit points. Macedonia refuses to let NATO and UN set up more camps. NATO bombs hit a passenger train south of Belgrade and a convoy of ethnic Albanian refugees.
Yugoslavia rules out a foreign military force in Kosovo but says it is willing to discuss a civilian presence. Yugoslavia breaks diplomatic relations with Albania. Yugoslav and Kosovar Albanian troops exchange fire at the border.
NATO missiles hit the headquarters of Milosevic's Serbian Socialist Party, his private residence, Serbian State Television, and the Defense Ministry.

May 1999 ... NATO missiles mistakenly hit a bus north of Pristina, the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, and a crowded bridge in central Serbia. They also hit the ethnic Albanian village of Korisa under the belief that it is a Serb military camp. NATO begins intensive bombing of Yugoslav electricity grid, disrupting power and water. War Crimes Tribunal indicts President Milosevic for crimes against humanity. Yugoslavia seemingly accepts a peace plan from the European Union and Russia, but still will not agree to NATO's terms. NATO bombing campaign increases.
Serb forces start withdrawal from Kosovo. NATO halts the air campaign.
Russian peacekeepers from Bosnia enter Kosovo and take control of Pristina airport. Ethnic Albanian refugees start to return home. Kosovar Serbs head north. The NATO air campaign officially over, as Serb withdrawal from Kosovo completed. The KLA promises to disarm.

Dec. 1999 ... Croatian President Tudjman dies of cancer.

Jan. 2000 ... Serbian businessman, paramilitary leader and indicted war criminal Arkan is assassinated in a Belgrade hotel. The Milosevic government denies involvement, although rumors spread that Arkan was ready to provide evidence in the Hague against Milosevic. The first case tried in the War Crimes Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia ends. Following the appeals process, Bosnian Serb Dusan Tadic is sentenced to 20 years for crimes against Muslim and Croat prisoners.

Feb. 2000 ... Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo spar with UN troops over their protection of Kosovar Serbs. New Croatian government promises to support internal democratic reforms and the independence of Bosnia, rather than foment a separatist movement among the Bosnian Croats. Serbian Defense Minister assassinated.

March 2000 ... More Serbian independent media shut down by government and Serbia seals its border with Montenegro. Several Bosnian Serbs are arrested by NATO troops and charged with war crimes between 1992-94 in Bosnia. Meanwhile, the new Croatian government hands over to the War Crimes Tribunal a Bosnian Croat who had commanded irregular forces against Bosnian Muslim from 1993-94.
Street battles in Mitrovica, Kosovo result in deaths of civilians and French peacekeepers.

April 2000 ... In Bosnian elections, the Social Democrats win in the Federation. The Serbian Democratic Party narrowly wins in Republika Srpska.
A Milosevic ally and head of Yugoslav Airlines is shot to death in Serbia.

May 2000 ... The head of the Vojvodina provincial government in Yugoslavia is shot to death. President Milosevic blames the political opposition for the murder. The Opposition holds rallies in favor of free elections. Milosevic continues crackdown on independent media. The Greek government removes religious affiliation from citizen identity cards. Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Slovenia are among nine nations petitioning for NATO entry by 2002.
A Serbian court convicts nearly 150 ethnic Albanians on terrorism charges stemming from the 1999 NATO bombings. Yugoslav President Milosevic closes universities early. The Security Advisor to the Montenegrin President is shot dead.

June 2000 ... Elections in Montenegro are split. Although the pro-western government wins, pro-Milosevic representatives win in heavily Serbian areas.
Serb opposition figure Vuk Draskovic survives an assassination attempt in Montenegro. Montenegro informs the UN that it does not wish to be represented by Yugoslavia.

July 2000 ... Yugoslav President Milosevic adjusts the constitution to reduce Montenegro's power in the legislature and to allow himself to run for reelection.

September 2000 ... Yugoslav elections take place. In spite of widespread vote fraud and the refusal by most Kosovar Albanians and Montenegrins to participate, opposition leader Vojislav Kostunica is elected. The Milosevic governmen insists that the victory was still less than 50% of the votes and declares that a second round of voting will take place in October. The opposition refuses to accept a second round and leads nationwide protests and strikes.

October 2000 ... Serb protesters storm the Parliament building and official state media outlets in Belgrade. Milosevic concedes power to Kostunica, who is sworn in as the new Yugoslav President. Alija Izetbegovic, citing poor health, steps down from the Bosnian Joint Presidency. As the last of the wartime leaders, his decision marks a new era in Balkan leadership.

February 2001 ... The International War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague convicts the former Chief Executive of the Croatian Defense Council of crimes against humanity for his role in military offensives against Bosnian Muslim civilians in 1992-93. He becomes the highest-level official to date convicted in the Tribunal. In a separate case, the Tribunal reaches a conviction in a case where rape is seen as a motivated act of war. This is the first in international law.
The Yugoslav Parliament passes an amnesty law for 650 ethnic Albanians held in jails since the 1999 Kosovo War.

March 2001 ... Skirmishes along the Macedonian border between ethnic Albanians and Macedonians.

April 2001 ... Slobodan Milosevic arrested in Belgrade after standoff. Serbian government vows to try him at home rather than send him to the Hague. Survivors of Srebrenica storm U.N. Headquarters in Sarajevo following reports that a Bosnian Muslim Commander who defended the town would be charged with war crimes against Bosnian Serbs.

June 2001 ... On the anniversary of his "Field of Blackbirds" speech in Kosovo, Slobodan Milosevic is extradited to the Hague, where he will eventually stand trial at the International War Crimes Tribunal. Milosevic refuses to cooperate and the Court issues a Not Guilty Plea on his behalf. Violence in the Macedonian capital Skopje over NATO troops escorting ethnic Albanians from the country.

July 2001 ... Fighting in Macedonia continues, as government forces battle Albanian rebels in the western town of Tetovo. Bosnian Serb general Radislav Krstic found guilty of genocide for role in July 1995 Srebrenica execution of 7,000 Muslim men and boys. Macedonian government sign peace agreement with Albanian rebels. British-led NATO force enters country to disarm guerrillas.

November 2001 ... Bosnian Serbs convicted in the Hague of setting up prison system.

December 2001 ... Slobodan Milosevic charged with genocide at the Hague.
January 2002

February 2002 ... Trial of Slobodan Milosevic opens in the Hague, with Milosevic representing himself.

April 2002 ... The Dutch Government resigns amidst scandal over Dutch UN troops not preventing the 1995 Srebrenica massacre.

July 2002 ... The presidents of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Yugoslavia meet for the first time since the war. The countries pledged to cooperate on the repatriation of refugees, fight organized crime, and assist each other in economic development. The United States extends its peacekeeping mission in Bosnia amidst negotiations over Americans being granted immunity from prosecution by International Criminal Court. Slobodan Milosevic's failing health due to heart disease slows down his trial in the Hague.

October 2002 ... Former Bosnian-Serb leader Biljana Plavsic admits to committing crimes against humanity during the 1992-1995 Bosnian war against Croats and Muslims.

November 2002 ... NATO invites Slovenia to join alliance, along with several Central and Eastern European countries.

February 2003 ... Yugoslav parliament votes to rename the country
Serbia and Montenegro. The new federation includes a joint administration of defense and foreign affairs and a future referendum on Montenegro's independence. Plavsic sentenced to 11 years in jail by the War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague.

March 2003 ... Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic is assassinated in Belgrade. Likely suspects are organized criminals with ties to Milosevic.

April 2003 ... Mirko Sarovic, the Bosnian Serb member of the tripartite presidency is forced to resign following a scandal over military exports to Iraq. Slovenia and nine others countries meet in Greece to sign a treaty to join the European Union.

September 2003 ... Wesley Clark -- NATO commander during the war in Kosovo -- announces he plans to run for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. presidency.

November 2003 ... HDZ wins more than 40% of the seats in parliamentary elections in Croatia.

December 2003 ... Political parties associated with nationalism in the 1990s gained power in Croatia and Serbia-Montnegro. HDZ, the party of Franjo Tudjman, wins in general election in Croatia. In Serbia-Montenegro, the Serbian Radical Party of Vojislav Seselj walked away with the most votes. Seselj and Slobodan Milosevic both won seats in spite of being held in the Hague on war crimes charges. SDSS (the main ethnic Serb political party in Croatia) agrees to support HDZ positions in parliament in exchange for concessions on rights for Croatia's Serbian minority, including helping refugees to return to or make claims on their properties. Bosnian Serb General Stanislav Gaic is convicted of war crimes in the Hague for his part in commanding the siege of Sarajevo from 1992-1994. Bosnian Serb commander jailed for 27 years for role in the 1995 massacre in Srebrenica. Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty ends its broadcasts in Croatian (and six other Eastern European languages).

So morgaan sinclair you are backing out of my challenge so everyone can see you can't stand by your own statements and instead respond with the same spam you always post and which nobody reads.

I'm still very interested in your claim that the Cherkess in Kosovo were deliberately transplanted by Soviet authorities 80 years ago? How did you invent that story?

The Croats, bosnian muslims and kosovo albanians were servants of Hitler during world war II and the bosnian muslims and kosovo albanians are the servants of al qaeda now during world war III. Of course they are the enemies of the Serbs. BTW did you know that osama bin laden himself received a Bosnian passport in the 1990's. Can you guess which ethnic group in Bosnia rewarded him with that?

Lame Cherry

"If Americans simply would have seen the Iraq policy through, were not malevolent in attacking President Bush and had not all acted armchair leader, this coming flash point would never have occurred."

Wrong! One of the reasons we have the situation we have now is because we have ignored the overall jihad for the democratic adventure in Iraq.

Bush is fool. He lets in millions of muslims each year through immigration into the US, kisses up to the arabians and paks and yes is very supportive of muslim Kosovo.

So why we play in sands of Iraq our nation and the west is being invaded by the enemy.

European Crusader ...

A couple of things you should understand:

I don't get ordered to respond by you. You don't get to "issue challenges" and have the rest of the people on this board due graduate research for you.

If you want people to believe to challenge my statement that the Cherkess were planted by the Soviets, then please provide a detailed history of their (supposedly) lengthy habitation of the Balkans.

If you want people to believe the Romanians or others were allies of the Serbs, why don't we find any evidence that these people committed the war crimes, genocide, and mass rapes that the Serbs did? I find NO evidence that they did. None.

The Montenegrins, Macedonians, and Greeks proved their worth by their own actions during the 1990s, and there is nothing you can do know to compromise their good by trying to smear it by association. It just doesn't hold.

AND, it is quite clear that the Albanians did NOT side with the Nazis, since the moved hell and high water to protect their Jews. The Bosnian SS (which mutinied in France without ever seeing combat) hardly qualifies as the enemy that France, Denmark, Austria and the rest of Europe did by capitulating without a fight, leaving it to the British and the Americans to try to handle the whole thing. However, their Undergrounds were magnificent and will never be forgotten.

And what I want to know is how you think you can exonerate a Serb aggression on the basis of ethnic hatred from 60 years and excuse a present-day attempt at genocide by saying "of course they are our enemies." Fine. Consider them your enemies. Just stop killing them and stop trying to rule them.

You "argument" is the same as Al Qaeda's. This stupid litany of alleged victimhood in which they are alleged to be so )^(*&^ innocent.

Al Qaeda makes war over the crusades, and religion and draw ethnic lines. All based on the past.

Well, I don't anybody I know dying for a war in the Middle Ages, dragged in by Al Qaeda OR by ethnic supremacists like you.

Now. Do you own damned research. I'm off to listen to a professor who actually knows what he's talking about.

Way off topic:

Weird story coming out of Bay Area, CA this morning.
Tanker truck crashed and burned on I80 interchange and melted the bridge. The early stories said the driver called a TAXI and went to the hospital. Now the stories are saying only that he had minor injuries. NO NAME of driver??
By the way this was a one vehicle accident in the wee hours of the morning. The first report showed a fireman saying there was something odd about the driver, but they got rid of him.
Trial Run?

Morgaan Sinclair

I see your personal Jihad against the Serbs continues. You hate the Serbs so much that you are willing to give the enemy more land within Europe. The Ummah has enough land as it is.

So no Morgaan I hope the Serbs beat the crap out of them and drive them back from Albania! One good thing about Iraq is we will be so busy playing in that sand box we won't have time to interfer this time.

Hell maybe Lame Cherry is right in some stange way...

Aunt Bea ...

Who should we be blaming this on before we have any details? Help me out here.

Morgaan Sinclair

"Radical Islam is the problem: moderate Islam is the solution. -- Dr. Daniel Pipes"

Mr. Pipes is wrong if he really said this.

You see your logic is wrong...

This a religious war not an ethnic war. It has and will always be that. The 1400 year old struggle continues and you seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

Why the media of course. They are not giving information. Is an American to be blamed for being suspicious of any news story that comes out with hardly any information?
In case you don't have access to a map, I80 is the S F Bay Bridge. Which has been threatened in the press by terrorist groups in the past. DUH.
The fire melted the interchange and collapsed the highway.
Homeland security has published the threats against this bridge by the specific use of tanker trucks. Would you like me to find the stories for you?

Radical Islam is the problem: moderate Islam is the solution. -- Dr. Daniel Pipes

Nice dream, but how long until a young man with fire in his belly gets all worked up over past glories and goes jihadi? As long as islam remains, we will have to deal with the beheaders.

If US State Department "brains" think that they will improove US image in the eyes of radical islamists by feading Serbia to them, US people is gravely endangering themselves by letting such idiotic individuals to run their state. Serbia was longstanding ally of USA troughout the history (both world wars), until in 1990's certain democrats hijacked the cause. Serbia is natural ally in war on terror and logical choice for the partner of the West in the Balkans. Unfortunately, we could see US allying with (Croat) nazis and (Bosnian and Albanian) mujahedins. Sad. Few people in the West, and I proudly count myself as one of those few, know about '90s in the Balkans beyond CNN lies. Truth is terrible. Truth is that we are (continously) helping our own enemies to destroy single largest nation in that part of the world that can (and is willing to) fight on our side against radical islam. Those actions are beyond anyone's sane logical judgement. We are playing with fire over there. And, as it may seem that we won't be those directly burned (Serbs will), history had prooven such tactics as futile. No one but US, and US alone will have to deal with those same demons they helped create. Bin Laden, anyone? 9/11 and 7/7 has links with Islam in Balkans. Do we have to wait for another strike, before we pull our heads out of our own asses? Kosovo issue is one of the most important problems today, although it may look insignificant at the first glance. I pray daily for the rest of the people (and policymakers) in the West to realize that bafore it is too late. Jihad is alive in Balkans. Inteligence agencies and policymakers already know it. They turn blind eye. To what purpose??????

morgaan sinclair

You are not the rest of the people on this board, even though you may think so yourself. And if you post lies then you risk that someone challenges them.

morgaan sinclair: "I don't particularly find the return of the Cherkess to south Russian, from which they were deliberately transplanted by Soviet authorities 80 years ago surprising, as there is something thinking that they were complicit with the Serb aggression towards its neighbors in the wars of the 1990s. If you want people to believe to challenge my statement that the Cherkess were planted by the Soviets, then please provide a detailed history of their (supposedly) lengthy habitation of the Balkans."

I find your anger about the Cherkess especially amusing. They are a muslim people who came to Kosovo in 1864, that's 53 years before the Soviet Union was created, so perhaps the Soviets planted them in Kosovo with a time machine??
But even more amusing is that you defend that they were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo not by the Serbs but by their fellow muslim albanians stating "that they were complicit with the Serb aggression towards its neighbors". Btw what's your excuse for the albanian ethnic cleansing of the Roma??

You are obviously the only ethnic supremacist on this site. I do not have any Serb relations at all and don't speak a single word Serb. And I'm a Roman Catholic while the Serbs are orthodox Christians, but since they have always fought against people who think that I'm a dirty infidel I happen to agree with them.

The albanians did side with the nazis, they had their own SS Skanderbeg division which in Kosovo participated in gathering of the Kosovo Jews and sending them to the nazi death camp Bergen-Belsen.
(my source is Chris Bishop's book: "Hitler's Foreign Divisions")

I'm off to listen to a professor who actually knows what he's talking about.

I didn't know that these still exist.

Morgaan Sinclair - if you don't know anything about a particular topic, don't presume to post comments on it. And don't plug the (huge) gaps in your knowledge by inventing things, expecting that nobody will notice - that's called lying!

So you're off to see a 'professor'. I know university standards have lowered, but I think you need primary school level lessons in history and geography, if you think that the Soviet Union existed in the 19th Century, and could expell people to a completely foreign unrelated country nowhere near its borders.

I am, of course, referring to your comical assertions about the Cherkess people in Yugoslavia. When Russia conquered the north Caucuses in the early to mid 19th century, many of the Cherkess (and other Circassians) went to live in various parts of the Ottoman Empire, which included the Balkans.

The rest of your comments involve ignoring and implicitly whitewashing the ethnic cleansing massacres and rapes committed by the Croats against the Serbs (and against the Bosnian Muslims for that matter). Bosnian Muslims also committed such acts against the Serbs, and their president, Izetbegovic, invited hundreds of 'Mujahadeen' Islamists fighters from the Middle East, to fight against the Serbs.

Here is a link about Muslim atrocities committed against Serbs in Bosnia:

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/076.shtml

I'll quote a bit of it, but I won't go into MorgaanSinclairesque cut-and-paste overdrive.

"The Court further found that mujahedeen troops murdered Bosnian Serb civilian Dragan Popovic in October, 1993 in the Orasac camp. Popovic was beheaded in a ritual Islamic beheading. ...There are videos showing the Mujahedeen executing Bosnian Serb POWs when the unit was integrated officially into the Bosnian Muslim Army which the Court has chosen to ignore. The Sky News video shows the execution of two Bosnian Serb POWs by Mujahedeen troops in the Bosnian Muslim Army. "

The article is about the Hague War Crimes Tribunal finally tackling Muslim atrocities and war crimes.

The anti-Western PC multiculturalist machine went after the Serbs with a mechanical vengeance, and its mechanisms make it impossible to understand Milosevic's grim warning that when Muslim beheaders, rapists, arsonists and desecrators start flooding your villages, towns and cities, you will do what you have to do to save yourself -- and only then will the Morgaan Sinclairs understand.

There is the other understandable wrinkle to the Serb reactions: payback against Muslims who mistreated them so ghoulishly and hellishly for centuries when Muslims were triumphalistically in power in the Balkans under Ottoman rule.

remote control -

Morgaan Sinclair is not an "anti-Western PC multiculturalist". She's a conservative Republican, like your good self.

auntbea,

Now let's not jump to conclusions. The name of the truck driver won't come out right away, and how can that be expected? News may be fast but it's not that fast. Give it till tomorrow and perhaps the news will have more details.

But otherwise I agree with you. This is really weird. And it sucks too. Traffic will be a real b*tch on WB 580.

schmegel,

Most Republicans and right-wingers are more PC than not, particularly with respect to the issue of the Third World and its hottest component, Islam: that's how widespread, systemic and mainstream PC has become as a sociopolitical force: it has infected both Left and Right and the Centrists between.

P.S.: I, by the way, support a woman's right to choose abortion, support certain measures of gun control that probably would make most right-wingers wince, support gay rights, support as much freedom as possible for pornographers, support philosophically and sociopolitically the principle of outrageous and insouciant free expression, and support the legalization of all drugs (under government control). If these positions make me a "conservative Republican", that would come as news to the conservative Republicans who would therefore have to share my platform, as it were.

European Crusader and Remote and Schmegel: Ms. Morgaan is definitely a fighter against Islam, but please do not feed her when she strays from topic. We want her to remain focused on the issues at hand. If she feels she is under personal attack, she becomes somewhat of an English bulldog, i.e., in its unwillingness to loosen its jaws from its opponent.

I, myself, do not know who has the correct information about the civility (or not) of the Serbs, but I don't want to spend a week researching it either. Nor do I want to read post after post of the debate. Where the debate will lead is all too predictable. Eventually Ms. Morgaan will claim you have personally villified her, and she will bring up yet again that she is the only one not writing under a nom-de-plume at this board. Yawn. No offense, but would you please ignore her from now on?

A point about process. It appears that anyone who doesn't toe the lines drawn -- by what authority we don't know! -- is personally attacked, told not to post on JW, etc.

Does this remind anybody of what went on in the Balkans. It should.

Anybody who didn't do things the way the Serbs wanted got attacked. Period.

That is why the timeline is important. It establishes in the clearest possible way the relationship between votes for independence from Serb hegemony and the experienced of being attacked and "purged" by Serbs.

NOW ... ON THE ISSUE OF THE CERZEKI (CHERKESS) ...

FROM THE OSCE WEBSITE AT http://www.osce.org/publications/odihr/1999/11/17755_512_en.pdf

Cerkezi

The Cerkezi, who are a tiny minority group not recognized as a national community in the FRY, are of the Cherkess nationality from the north Caucasus region of Russia. The Cerkezi arrived in Kosovo more than 80 years ago and settled in Milosevo/Millosheve in Obilic/Obiliq municipality. They number around 100 persons, are Muslims, and speak Albanian, Serb and Cerkess. None of the data gathered by the OSCE-KVM specifically referred to the Cerkezi of Malisevo, but it is known that at some point during the period between late March and early June 1999 they were expelled and some of their houses were burned by Serbs, and that all of them became refugees in the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

AGAIN NOTE:

... IT IS KNOW THAT BETWEEN LATE MARCH AND EARLY JUNE 1999 THEY WERE EXPELLED AND SOME OF THEIR HOUSES WERE BURNED ****** BY THE SERBS ****** AND THT ALL OF THEM BECAME REFUGEES IN THE FORMER YUGOSLAV REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA.

Now, I would like the two of you remote_control and European Crusader to apologize to everybody on this forum for outright lying.

It was NOT the Kosovar Albananians who abused these people. It was the Serbs.

You asked for proof. You got it. And you owe the entire JW group an apology.

"Islam is such a comprehensive religion which includes all what the family needs and what an individual needs in this world," he said. "Help others to understand it. Teach it to others."

Why is he going around begging then?

auntbea,

Here's an update. This story even has the drivers name.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/29/BAGVOPHQU46.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

Looks like this really was an accident. Hell, anyone driving at 4 am who's speeding and tired will cause an accident. It was just an unfortunate coincidence that it happened to be a truck driver with 8600 gallons of unleaded gas.

If anyone commutes on the MacArthur maze, well good luck to you. May want to consider taking the BART if you can.

Schmegel:

I have applauded every conviction of Bosnians and Croats found guilty of war crimes and will continue to do so.

Note information on Cerkess above.

I am a registered independent, which has its thrills as I get resoundingly attacked in Harvard Square restaurants by wholly intolerant liberals who think Nancy Pelosi's dangerous antics in Damascas are tantamount to the Second Coming and vilified by conservatives who think anybody who mentions environmental necessities (see James Woolsey on this) is the anti-Christ.

I also think that Dubya is the worst President in US history, and whole-heartedly agree with Hugh Fitzgerald that this war is a total travesty from beginning to end.

I also think the Serb self-serving conflation of the war on terror with an attempt to gain control over Kosovo is pure ... well, you can fill in the blank. And anybody who supports their attempt to cause one more WHIT of trouble in the Balkans is supported another potential genocide.

And genocide has been called for or intimated twice on this board today by Serb supporters, and those posts you will now find gone from board along with a long-time vicious poster for whom noithing but complete submission to his point of view is good enough.

It is absolutely extraordinary -- and very telling -- that somehow even the smallest comments in opposition to rank Serb control of all the Balkans are met with such comity -- and that it is always taken to the most debased level of personal insult -- with declarations about my politics, and multiple accusations that are supposed to either frighten me into submission or silence or character assassinate me into oblivion.

But it won't work. I have many faults, but cowardice isn't one of them.

remote_control

Saying that you support pornography and women's rights in the same sentence is a rank contradiction in terms.

Pornography is psychological violence towards women and it is ** brain rape ** for men.

And the reason I say that is that most predators who would like to stop and can't cite "imprinting" by pornography in early adolescence.

Recent brain scans from Indiana University over video games showed an interesting result: brain games that made kids think stimulated the frontal lobes, making them more intelligent; violent video games like "Grand Theft Auto" stimulated the limbic brain -- which also stimulates violence, and not just violence, but ADDICTIVE VIOLENCE.

And pornography is now being studied under the same context, because psychologists are already highly convinced that pornography "hardwires" a man's brain in such a way that he cannot enjoy sex without predatory and likely violent behavior.

So if you can't get behind the abolition of pornography for the sake of the women who wind up abused, raped or dead because of it, at least get behind some compassion for men whose brains are being destroyed for life by people who are just as bad as heroin dealers. They know the impact this has, they know it addicts for life, and they sell it anyway.

I hope you don't have daughters.

Morgaan Sinclair

Can you please explain how giving up non-muslim controlled lands to the Ummah is going to help our cause?

Give moslems an inch....
Qur'an:8:39 "So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam."
Qur'an:8:57 "If you meet them in battle, inflict on them such a defeat as would be a lesson for those who come after them, that they may be warned."
Qur'an:8:59 "The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah's enemy."
Qur'an:9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, beleaguer them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:21:44 "Do they see Us advancing, gradually reducing the land (in their control), curtailing its borders on all sides? It is they who will be overcome."
Qur'an:24:55 "Allah has promised to those among you who believe and do good work that He will make them rulers of the earth. He will establish in authority their religion - the one which He has chosen for them."
Qur'an:5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive after corruption, making mischief in the land [those who refuse to surrender to Islam] is murder, execution, crucifixion, the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. That is their degradation and disgrace in this world. And a great torment of an awful doom awaits them in the hereafter. Except for those who repent (and become Muslims) before you overpower them and they fall into your control."

GreatCometof1577 ...

Can you explain to me conflating moderate Muslims in the Balkans with terrorism is acceptable to a Christian, why consigning a people to be ruled by the people who tried to genocide them, and why praising the democratic decisions of Montenegrans, Macedonians, Croats and Bosnians is acceptable but of the Albanians is not?

I am no more eager than you are to see any kind of Islamic state declared by anybody, but I will also not break every precept of my faith by delivering people into the hands of their enemies to be slaughtered.

The Serbs gave up their attempt to bully the Montenegrins into submission ONLY because they knew they couldn't hold by Montenegro and Kosovo.

In this case, sadly, the Serbs withdrew the Serbian people from Kosovo (details above) and left a 90% Albanian Muslim population that was subjected to massacre, mass rape, torture, forced march, and attempted genocide.

If they are forced under Serb control, they will fight, and they won't wait a couple of years to do like they did last time, showing little Martin Luther King peaceful resistance videos and telling Mohandas Gandhi inspiration stories to the kiddies at night. This time they fight from day one, and they will right. And then the Serbs will exterminate them, and we'll all be sitting around wondering why we let the Serbs doing again.

No, I'm not happy about another "Islamic" state. But if we get one, you can thank the Serbs who ordered all the people of their pure ethnic strain out of there becuase they knew what they intended to do and didn't want even one Serb to have to suffer it.

Nuff said. If Serbia wants to whine now about the fact it is now a tiny and dwindling minority in Kosovo, they can look to their own behavior rather than blaming the situation now.

This is what happens when a country lets a tyrant wage attempt genocide on another racial or ethnic group. They are not trusted for generations if not centuries.

And it's too late to do anything about it now. And NOBODY, NOBODY, should be backing in their attempt to impose rule on a majority population that does not want it.

They are the Baathists of the Balkans. And despite the fact there are NO good solutions on this one, the one that will prevent another Iraq in the Balkans is the freedom of Kosovo.

Otherwise, you need to go read everything that Hugh Fitzgerald has written about the debacle in Iraq. Becuase in the end, it won't be the Albanians the Serbs are fighting -- and it WILL NOT BE because the Albanians want it that way.

Al Qaeda will simply do to the Albanians what they are trying to do in Anbar -- with now every ethnic Sunni tribe fighting them -- which is make Kosovo a radical Islamist base.

Better that the Serbs help the Albanians rid themsevles of the Wahhabis, which they show every intention of doing, at great personal risk.

Otherwise, the Serb attack on the Albanians will simply be hijacked by Al Qaeda, and then the Serbs will have the nice little self-fulfilling prophecy they've been try to sell all along, an "offer" to the West that has exactly the validity of the last offer you got to buy the Brooklyn Bridge for $100 bucks.

As an American with one son finally home from the war and two adopted sons still fighting, one in Afghanistan and the other in Iraq, both Marine chopper pilors, I deeply resent the attempt of the Serbs to pull my country into another war on a false conflation of Albanian moderate Islam with radical Islamic terrorism so that AMERICANS can pay for their next little genocidal jihad against non-Serb ethnic minorities.

Now, GreatComet, I have enormous respect for you in a great many ways, but I can't be with you on this point. The Serbs did too much wrong, and we can't ignore it. It would be nice if it were another way, but it isn't. And we have to deal with the complexity of the debris that was left behind and try to make peaceful lives for all.

And I'm not sending any more of my children to wars there American blood is supposed to buy hegemony for tyrannical groups of any kind.

And that includes the Serbs.

50 years of communist dictatorship has estranged all in ex-Yugoslavia from religion, Muslims from Bosnia and Albanians included. Still, the islamic mentality is still present. Sense of superiority, of being something owed to all the time, intolerance towards others, demographic expansion, tribalism, victimhood in case they do not get what they want, fantasies presented as history, the inability to admit that they could possibly do anything wrong to others...It's all there.

Morgaan Sinclair wants me to apologize for "lying" about the Cherkess. This demand from Ms. Sinclair demonstrates her abysmal reading comprehension, as anyone who has read my preceding comments above will see I never mentioned the Cherkess at all -- so how could I have "lied" about them? If Ms. Sinclair has such abysmal reading ability pertaining to such a simple matter as this, how can we trust her on more complicated issues?

Secondly, she adduces a murky allegation that --

BETWEEN LATE MARCH AND EARLY JUNE 1999 THEY [the Cherkess] WERE EXPELLED AND SOME OF THEIR HOUSES WERE BURNED ****** BY THE SERBS ******

Well, taking it at face value: what was the context for these explusions and partial house-burnings? In the Balkans, with Muslims complicit in so many horrible shenanigans over the years, decades, centuries, and with the complex political turmoil so endemic to that region, and with the sober reality of the larger picture we must keep our eye on -- to wit, Islamic Jihad and its multifarious agents in different regions throughout the globe including the Balkans -- frankly, I find this to be a refreshing and invigorating piece of history: i.e., it is likely these Muslim Cherkess deserved to be expelled and "some" of their houses burned.

Morgaan Sinclair

Once a muslim always a muslim...

It is the way it is. I don't care what the Serbs did in the past because the muslims have used up their credits with me.

Surprise! I supported the intervention in Bosnia when I was still stupid and idealistic. I really thought muslims were just like me. Today I however know better. I will not trust a people who accept a faith that teaches that I must be converted, killed or subdued. If they still practice that faith then how can I support them. We cannot deny the teachings of this faith. I cannot name you one muslim majority country right now that I can trust. Turkey the last redoubt is already in trouble as we have seen in the news. Islam as a faith just cannot be made moderate enough for me. For that to occur they need to re-write whole sections of their faith. You know and I know that will not happen in our life time.

The Serbs have no world wide goal of conquest but muslims do. The Kosovar muslims may appear to be somewhat peaceful or secular but under the surface they still have a belief system that just can't live in peace with my world. Soon we will have to fight these people. No world court or UN can do a dam thing to stop that.

Sometimes in life you have to make sacrafices for the greater good and this is one I can live with. I want the Serbs to win Kosovo.

GreatComet1577 ...

I understand how you feel, and I actually really do respect it. But I can't be with you on this one.

And probably the real disagreement between us comes down to this: I think -- and I could have this wrong, of course and will happily accept a correction -- that you just want all Muslims stopped from having any influence. And if that means depriving them of the rights we would insist on others having, that's OK. Because, ideologically, it is dangerous and can't be trusted. Is that right?

Others feel also (me among them) that it is ideologically dangerous, but on a practical and moral level they believe that supporting the transformation of Islam is the only thing that will (1) work worth a damn, (2) prevent massive slaughter of both Muslims and non-Muslims, and (3) create a future we can actually all live with. I'm in that camp.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to stand idly by and not kick ass occasionally when it's called (Afghanistan, yes ... Iraq, no).

I think that if this evaluation is true, we will disagree on some issues. You will see my point of view as dangerous becuase it postentially would allow moderate Muslims to have the same rights as the rest of us, create a state, vote their independence, etc. I would limit this by a forceful human rights declaration that would bring stiff sanctions against ANY government that deprives women or anybody else of total civil equality. That pretty much rules out a nasty Islamic state anywhere. The only problem is we can't enforce that until we get off oil.

I see your position as dangerous in the sense that it both destroys pockets of Islamic moderation that we are going to desperately in the future -- while buying a conflation of these very groups with terrorism for the self-serving purposes of a dangerous ethnic group -- and works against any hope of establishing basic civil rights as the bar that all countries must meet to be acceptable (and traded with) in the international community. We can't stop people from trampling on women's rights and religious freedom by doing it ourselves.

As I would also to Al Qaeda: the ends never justify the means becuase the ends are all you have.

Morgaan Sinclair
I served in the Balkans in 99 & 2000. The KLA were slashing Serb throats and doing driveby shootings against Serb farmers like nobody's business. Oh and they were destroying Orthodox Churches & monastaries at a horrific rate while we did NOTHING to protect the Serbs.
The first "Stars and Stripes" article I read after ariving at Camp Bondsteel was how some people in a house full of Roma (Gypsies) had been lured outside and killed with a booby trap by Albanians.
The Balkan wars were none of our business & we damned near went to war with Russia over them!
Took a trip to Markaska (sp?), Croatia & by the grafitti at the border, you'd have thought the nazis won WWII,there were swastikas & "Heil Hitler" painted all over the place. Good Ol' President Clinton did a bang up job of supporting the nazis in that war & MPRI got a fat contract to train the Croat Army to boot.
I'll be in Afghanistan soon & we've encountered some "grateful" Bosnians there, fighting our troops...

Lame Cherry- Stop defending Bush. The idiot is welcoming thousands of Saudi students into this country every year like it's Sept 10th. He's a lost cause.
Posted by: Bingo

THANK YOU~!!

That really needed to be SAID!!

THANKS AGAIN!

Roughie, if the Europe/US hadn't stop the Serbs in Bosnia, they have exterminated or dominated every other ethnic group in the Balkans. We gave them YEARS to stop it, and they didn't. A lesson for tyrants.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

Because the Serbs KNOW what we DON'T know - the TRUTH about moslems! We should know by now and there are still Serb-haters on this forum who call themselves anti-jihadists.

islam can ONLY be fought with methods more brutal than its own.

We still have time - I see precious little will.

We still have the upper hand militarily. Let's pray we use it before it's too late.

No more pussyfooting around...

Armalite, you will find no truly innocent people here, but the fact is that the revenge visited on Serbs, for which I expect a number of Bosnians, Kosovars and Croats to be convicted at the Hague, followed the fact that the Serbs shelled Sarajevo for THREE YEARS ***AFTER*** they disarmed them. So they shelled a defenseless city for three years.

And the Albanians finally got enough of seeing people mowed down by the thousands and took revenge as well.

I don't condone it. But they didn't start it, unless you consider the audacity of thinking your vote can count against another ethnic group's supremacist hegemony to be a crime punishable by death.

Perhaps to get a more balanced view you should spend some time listening to the other side talk about it. I would suggest you talk to so Kosovar Catholics and Serbian Jews while you're at it.

And talk to some of the people who were around from 1991 - 1997.

Timeline provided above. It's a real education.

Also, see a documentary called "The Children of Kosovo." I promise you that whatever tales of abuse of the Serbs you've heard won't hold a candle to the degree and MASSIVE LEVEL of the abuse of all other ethnic groups by the Serbs, who appropriated all of the materiel of the former Yugoslavia for themselves and then used it on the other groups.

The simple fact is: the Serbs considered all of the Balkans to be their personal possession and they were willing to genocide, gendercide, rape, torture, murder, force-march to create the glorious dream of "Greater Serbia" in which Serb ethnicity ruled all. I'm not sure any of us could really call that something we could support.

I wish you every safety and security in Afghanistan and pray for your safe return.

Now. Do you own damned research. I'm off to listen to a professor who actually knows what he's talking about.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

The professor you mention should teach you to spell as little better. Your typos are not due to bad fingering but due to lack of proper knowledge.

Just pointing out the obvious.

And please stop putting down the people who KNOW what islam is all about.

Thank you.

You see your logic is wrong...

This a religious war not an ethnic war. It has and will always be that. The 1400 year old struggle continues and you seem to be missing the forest for the trees.
Posted by: greatcometof1577

Comet.. Morgaaaaaaaaaaan is a lost cause. She pisses me the hell off too. With "friends" like these...

I'd hate to see the USA make the same egregious mistake that Germany has historically made. That is to go against the good guys on the Balkans.

I'm off to listen to a professor who actually knows what he's talking about.

I didn't know that these still exist.
Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

zzzzzzzziiiinnngggggg!!

Re; Kosovo's top Islamic leader asks Detroit Muslims for support

Kosovo is a good example of the constant pattern in history of some lately "indigenous people" removing the "natives". This time the Muslims are playing the "pig" role. But someday they will be removed and claim that they are victims of "oppression".

Allahfancula ...

You're so incredibly arrogant. Typos are OK in posts, dear. And after you've edited 15 books for major houses like I have you can talk to me about English. And besides, being an insufferably judgmental pedant about people's English is a stupid thing for you to do when what you have is a severe inability just to think straight.

Also, there are good professors. It's just that the bad ones are so horrible.

I meant to say: Kosovo is a good example of the constant pattern in history where some lately "indigenous people" has removed the prior "natives". This is a constant pattern in history. When Muslims do it (or others do it) it's in the name of God or some righteous ideology. When Muslims (or others) are on the receiving end they are "victims of imperialism". However, Islam is a particularly repulsive tool of Arab Imperialism in its mandates to deception and pretenses to tolerance. Islam is the engine of Arab Imperialism. It's just another rationalization system for conquest, subjugation and even extermination of "the other".

Morgan Sinclair

"that you just want all Muslims stopped from having any influence"

Bingo! My view is to weaken and keep them always unbalanced. Always do what is best for the west when confronted with Islam. It worked really well from 1500s to the early 1900s. Everytime Islam was involved westerners for the most part put aside their differences and just beat the crap out of them until they returned from wence they came.

"Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans -- still nominally Christian -- and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam." Hilaire Belloc in 1938

Mr. Belloc was right. Islam is the enemy and has always been. Unless the core teachings change how can peace ever exist. Even if Kosovo becomes independent that will stop it. It will not stop until the armies of Allah have peace on earth. It is the kind of peace that makes what the Serbs did look like childs play. Moderate muslims who are faithful really do think the same way as a radical. The only difference is the moderate is quiet and the radical is loud. They both hope for the finial outcome. Islamic Rule.

Edit from above...

Even if Kosovo becomes independent that will NOT stop it.

Morgaan

We all know where you stand on the Serbs. Question is - what do you keep trying to achieve by posting that here every occasion a thread about Serbia/Kosovo/Bosnia comes up? Do you really expect the bulk of us - who oppose the Jihad everywhere else on earth - to buy your claim that the Muslim campaigns (okay, call it resistance, but the Palis and Pakis say the same thing about their confrontations with Israel and India) against the Serbs aren't instances of Jihad? Do you really think that we'll continue to be anti-Jihad when it comes to Palestinians, Kashmiris, Afghans, etc., but somehow, when it comes to the Bosnians, Albanians and Cherkess, we'll suddenly flip and support those Muslims?

And it's not like even the JW staff agrees with you - Jim Jatras, who has been heading the American council for Kosovo, whose goal it is to prevent Kosovo from becoming independent, is a member of the JW board. If Robert and his board endorsed your position that Serbia must not be allowed to keep Kosovo, they would probably have had someone like Stephen Solarz on their board, instead of Mr Jatras. So stop telling people to apologize to the 'entire JW group' (whatever that means) - I'll bet that if you took a poll of JW posters (not counting the Naseems, Abdullah, Haidons and UnAmericans), 95%+ would tell you that they support the Serbs. Including the Jews. Including the Catholics. Including every other anti-Islamic group you can think of.

You also have an incredibly petulant arrogance about yourself that presumes to know more about the place than people who've been there. Obviously, you discount the Serbs who post here, but here you have an American soldier who fought on the side of the Muslims against the Serbs, and comes out with his own observations about what people who he was fighting for did. His being there ain't good enough for you - you want him to see documentaries, and talk to the people who've been doing those killings. And you expect to be taken seriously?

As for your inane parroting of Daniel Pipes' claim that radical Islam is the problem to which the solution is moderate Islam, that's a whole chapter in itself that's been dealt with at large by Robert, Hugh and Greg at length here. If you really believe that, stop calling yourself an anti-Jihadi: there is no alternative to the Quran and Sunnah that moderate Muslims look to to avoid engaging in Jihad. Chances are that they are either ignorant of such requirements, or too lazy to carry them out. Those who have consciously chosen not to follow it are probably Muslims in Name only, too scared to apostatize because they know that it would result in snapping of family ties at best, and honor killings at worst.

Morgaan Sinclair adduces revenge as an apparently exculpatory motive for Muslims, but she refuses to accord the same exculpation for the non-Muslims in the Balkans -- even when logically such exculpation, if accorded at all, is owed to the ones who did not start the whole mess in the first place. The Muslims were the first aggressors in SE Europe, and their aggressions were horrific and went on for grotesquely nauseating and abominably inhuman centuries. Therefore, all exculpatory revenge rests with the non-Muslims of the Balkans. Morgaan Sinclair is a PC multiculturalist: I can see the PC multiculturalist stars in her eyes that, in this case at least (perhaps some familial or ancestral sentimentality for the region is also at play here) blind her to the grimly gruesome facts of Islamic evil.

greatcometof1577-

I take the contrary point of view. I don't a good end for Islam in this matter.

We are part of nature and nature limits our species by means of war, famine and pestilence. Nature does not care about the individual, but only the survival of the species. Islam is a retrograde and primitive threat to the species and is likely going to be limited by war, pestilence and famine. The old patterns of history (subduing "indigenous peoples and cultures" in the name of religion-ideology) are outdated. As Einstein pointed out, technology now requires a rethinking in man and the letting go of such old rationalizations. Islam is part of a primitive past. It must change or be annihilated.

Infidel Pride ...

We all know what you think, too, but you keep talking, and, of course, so will I. I think that's the nature of conversation, is it not?

My understanding is that you are banned for comments earlier today calling for the extermination of a large tract of a certain population.

So, my question is ... why are you still here? Or did you manage to gain a reprieve? Or did you find a way to slip around the system?

Well, we'll see. I've written to JW management.

"...there is no alternative to the Quran and Sunnah that moderate Muslims look to to avoid engaging in Jihad".-IPride

That is the problem. Islam is a primitive belief-system that was once an effective tool as one of the human rationalizations for imperialism, but it's core beliefs are now incompatible with the survival of the species, including everyone in the Mideast.

Frank

Oh I agree! I am with you. Until then however (because the majority of people in the west are not ready for such talk) lets keep Islam contained within their play pin.

remote_control

I have never excused revenge on anybody's part. You are a despicable liar. And that is slander.

Dear Morgaan Sinclair
please be advised that I and I would wager to guess 98% of the readers of this board simply scroll right through your junk and don't read it. Your propoganda is insufferable. As concerns your running off to listen to a professor this explains much, University has become the place to go to get stupid. Good day.

Morgaan Sinclair
Nothing seems to touch off your hysteria [one wonders about people who claim to be Academics]
as the 'Crimes of the Serbs!'
It was an American President[you ought to know this] who said "No country should stand in judgment of another country."
Certainly America isn't a country to be claiming the moral high ground with its record.
During the whole of Balkans War total of killed was 100,000 not the 200,000 claimed by media & Clinton Administration-these figures stand & were
checked by a BOSNIAN MUSLIM!
This is small cookies[not that I'm advocating killing] compared to Americans slaughtering millions in Asia due to their paranoia of communismn, unlucky civilians of Afghanistan and
Iraq dying daily-latter said to have reached half a million by conservative estimate.
Take a look at CRIMES AGAINST THE SERBS-NATO bombings that killed thousands of innocent civilians in a sovereign State that had NEVER invaded any NATO country.Not to mention destroying the infrastructure of Serbia with URANIUM DEPLETED BOMBS which pollute & poison
the land and water for decades to come-same bombs which were [and probably still are]dropped in Iraq!!
Serbia was deliberately targeted because U.S didn't want a strong Balkan State which had the guts to stand up to an Imperial Bully .
Fortunately for NATO[& U.S] they could control that drunk Yeltsin even if majority of Russians
were fiercely opposed to bombing of fellow Orthodox & Slavs.
Well, you ain't going to be so lucky this time as
Russian Bear is flexing its economic might & Putin is a very different guy.
The only one who wants a Greater Albania is adherents of Clinton's failed policies and of course, Morgaan Sinclair who hates Serbs without
even meeting one or setting foot in the Balkans...
Your outrage & horror at 'Serb Orthodox priests'
blessing Bosnian Serbs is NOT matched by Bosnian
Muslims being 'blessed' by Muslim Clerics before
going into battle.Ot that Bosnian Muslim tanks had the crescent of their Moon God on theirs whilst the Bosnian Serbs had crosses ...
It is well documented Croat Catholic Nuns &
Priests enthusiatically joined in [often leading]
horrible atrocities against Serbs,Gypsies,and Jews in WW2 but Serbs in particular, and I'm sure they blessed every Croat Murderer as well as
believing themselves to be very 'Holy'.
How about you actually meeting some Serbs and taking a trip to Serbia? Even better, visiting Jasenovic-if you can stand the horror-particularly of REALITY which people such as yourself prefer to pontificate about from the safety of their Ivory Tower.

TheRegulator ...

Interesting control-freak name. Fits you.

If 98% of the readers on this board just scroll my posts, why is that you and 150 of your closest friends rush out to try to squelch any effort by ANYONE to counter your completely specious screed in which you outright call for the subjugation of Muslim people's right to determine their lives by the vote?

And it seems as if you're advocating that people should just skip graduate degrees altogether. What would you suggest? that in 20 years we have to depend on Muslim PhDs because we don't have any?

The problem isn't that most professors don't know a lot, it's that they mix politics with subject matter. That is wrong. But many do not make this mistake and your insistence on lumping ALL professors, ALL Muslims, ALL whatever into categories crafted by you to fit your own thinking is a serious sign of a deep failure of basic intelligence on YOUR part.

"lets keep Islam contained within their play pin". greatcometof1577-

I do think containment (Truman Doctrine style) and energy independence are the only answers. They must be isolated and defunded in every way possible. The USSR eventually collapsed because of the containment policy of Truman, etc.

Their play pen is a little dangerous. It's good to stay away from it.

Morgaan Sinclair-

I like your feisty nature. Really. Such people are almost always authentic, whether when they are right or mistaken.

Haha Morgan Sinclair- control freak ? I think the volume of words posted in the comments would speak to who IS the control freak and who feels compelled to 'control'...and PS I have been to Serbia, have you ?

Frank ...

Energy independence is the linch-pin of (1) terrorism, (2) environmental problems, (3) crush poverty in the third world, and (4) US and world economic problems. As for the terrorists, no bucks, no Buck Rogers. C4 and mercury switches are expensive.

When radical regimes are confronted with the loss of oil revenue, there's going to be a great outburst at first and then a serious sobering as they realize they are going to have to use that drilling technology for water to irrigate dried-up wadis that were lush in the pre-Anthropocene of 6,600 years ago.

I suggest that our greatest effort being to get off foreign oil immediately, and just a 5% reduction in energy use would do that.

What the Saudis do, however, is that when Americans seem to be getting serious about alternative energy, they don't their huge reserves onto the market, falsely deflating the cost of oil worldwide, and Americans go RIGHT BACK to buying 10,000-pound urban assault vehicles that get 13 miles to the gallon. That's got to change.

I think a hidden understand about 9/11 was simply that "nothing succeeds like success." When Muslims saw a deep wound inflicted on America, they had that hateful glee of someone who's lost 2,000 straight chess games and then gets lucky and wins one: pure gloating, strutting, in-your-face arrogance of the type CAIR runs on a daly basis. And in response to this, Americans just basically caved into dhimmitude.

And the thing that will FORCE Middle Eastern Muslims (the real problem as they start it everywhere else) is to suck half the money out of their economies and hope that China doesn't just take cheap oil and pollute the bejesus out of the whole planet (people in Seattle are already breathing their smog).

That means that not only do we need to pull back oil consumption and get off foreign oil, we need to invest in technologies that we can then SELL TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

The only solution to radical Islamism other than moderate Islam is Yankee Ingenuity. We come up with a 40% efficient wind machine or a type of technology for wave power that really works, and these people will have to rethink their relationship with the world very, very fast.

TheRegulator:

I don't subscribe to the theory that soundbites are enough to explain complex concepts that surround the issues that kill hundreds of thousands of people. Brevity is sometimes the soul of wit, and sometimes it's just indicative of thundering prejudice and superficiality.

Morgaan Sinclair, etc, etc..

I will end this in agreement on this..

Energy independence! Yes!

No matter what this has to be the most important thing we can do to defeat Islamic aggresson. No cash, no Jihad.

As I think Mr. Spencer said...

A Manhatten Project of Energy Independence (or something like that).

Dear GreatComet ...

Yup, it's called "taking your power back" -- QUITE LITERALLY!

Have a good night, GC ... You and I may not agree, but I have tremendous respect for how deeply you think on the issue. It's not lightly that you go about this, and I find myself encouraged just when I find someone who is really thinking, always really deeply thinking things through. Thank you for that ...

... Milosevic's grim warning that when Muslim beheaders, rapists, arsonists and desecrators start flooding your villages, towns and cities, you will do what you have to do to save yourself...

Which is to say lower ourselves to their level. Creepy, yes. Necessary, eventually.

Until then, naifs such as the one posting so profligately in this thread will happily and piously grease the skids for Moslems to better oppress and murder innocents, and smash freedom wherever it dares assert itself.

Morgaan flings the word "lying" around like Leftists and Muslims fling the word "hate" around.

I didn't "lie" when I said what I said, because I added the word "apparently". And that means it appears to me that she exculpated revenge when Balkan Muslims do it. I could be mistaken, but I would only be "lying" and engaging in "slander" if I knew she did not exculpate revenge when Balkan Muslims do it while at the same time I would have claimed she did anyway. ("Lying" means you know you are not telling the truth while you are uttering or writing something. To prove that I was lying, you would have to prove that I knew I was not telling the truth when I wrote what is alleged to be a "lie".)

Morgaan wrote such things as:

"the fact is that the revenge visited on Serbs, for which I expect a number of Bosnians, Kosovars and Croats to be convicted at the Hague, followed the fact that the Serbs shelled Sarajevo for THREE YEARS ***AFTER*** they disarmed them. So they shelled a defenseless city for three years.

"And the Albanians finally got enough of seeing people mowed down by the thousands and took revenge as well."

(Then she went on to imply in the most forceful terms that the Serbs did astronomically worse violence in the Balkans than the Muslims ever did -- which is an outrageously tendentious perception and serves to feed the justification for revenge just as much as our rhetoric supposedly -- in her mind -- feeds the justification for "genocide".)

When she writes such things, a reader can reasonably observe that she is apparently adducing revenge as exculpatory for Balkan Muslims. What other reasons would she have for writing these things?

Morgaan is the one slandering me -- by calling me a "liar" and a "slanderer"; though I wouldn't dream of accusing her of it or pressing charges or notifying the JW authorities, because I reasonably suppose she is an emotionally imbalanced person and must therefore be accorded some slack.

remote_control ...

That you, in Slick Willy fashion, cover your ass with a word like "apparently" doesn't at all actually wind up covering your ass at all.

And BTW, since you claim to have seen "PC Multiculturalist" stars in my eyes, what color are my eyes, and how many stars were there?

Again I'll say: STOP LYING and flinging false accusations around.

remote_control ...

Did I not write above that revenge is no excuse for
ANY group in the Balkans?

Perhaps one difference here is that the Albanians and Bosnians and Croats exploded after several years of incredible abuse on them. Should they have done so? No. Especially not with the UN there to protect them.

But the Serbs went to war claiming abuse from 500 years earlier, taking revenge on people who had nothing to do with anything that happened in that time.

Would you exonerate the English for trying to exterminate all Germans today for what happened in World War II? No, you wouldn't. But you'll come right back and claim that because of what happened in World War II to the Serbs -- or in the Ottoman wars of five centuries ago -- that Serbs have every right to lord it over everybody and exterminate whomever they please.

If you don't want Muslims to claim the right to wage jihad becuase of some alleged problem five centuries ago, don't do it yourself.

Becuase it's all the rest of us who have to die to try to keep you guys from killing each other. And I'm sick and tired of it. And I don't want you starting ANOTHER fucking war that I have to be involved with out of sheer impudent ego.

remote_control

Please respond to the post I wrote you about your support of pornography.

Thank you.

A Manhattan Project for Energy sounds nice, but it would NOT be a good investment of resources. Projects like the Apollo Moon Landings or the Manhattan Project are successful because the end result did not have to be economical. Those projects sought to answer the question of CAN WE DO SOMETHING and not the question of CAN WE DO SOMETHING ECONOMICALLY.

"Manhattan-style Projects" are great at pushing the boundaries of technology, but are useless in generating things that are cost efficient to use on a mass scale.

When was the last time you personally operated a nuclear powered device? When was the last time you went to the moon?

There are already plenty of incentives for someone in the energy industry to discover the next best fuel. Unfortunately, chemistry and economics are two fields that you just can't fudge reality on.

JSobieski ...

Don't you think that if somebody invented a Mr. Fusion that ran on bananas and beer (Back to the Future I) the world would trample a path to his/her door and throw money at them as fast as they could?

Such a device would make Bill Gates #2 in wealth overnight. You know?

I think the incentives are there, and even if they aren't there for industry, they should be there for the U.S. government.

Morgaan,

"But the Serbs went to war claiming abuse from 500 years earlier"

I doubt they had to go back that far: 100 years would suffice. Muslims have been abusing them horrifically for several centuries right up to the early 20th when they were still in power.

As for the pornography issue, we'll just have to agree to disagree. While I might agree in part that pornography (of and for adults of course) has some bad effects, to me that is outweighed by the bad effects of the state regulating the free expression and appetites of citizens in a society that is not static and frozen in time, but is continually changing and progressing.

JSobieski

Perhaps the term "Manhattan Project for Energy" is a little confusing. What I mean is...

(1) Nuclear Power
(2) Coal conversion to oil
(3) Hydrogen (by product of Nuclear Power)
(4) More domestic oil drilling
(5) Advanced technologies etc.

When I say Manhattan Project for Energy I am really saying a combination of stuff we already know is possible. I am not talking about inventing anything. The goal is to remove ourselves from being dependent on the enemy for our energy supplies.

Also I am not against taking out Chavez etc. Nor am I only saying government run. Any company that puts money into energy RD will get big tax breaks but companies must realize that the national welfare of the state is more important then short term profits. We made sacrafices in WWII and we can do them now. Make it clear also that there will be rewards for doing this.

This of course this will cause some economic problems at first which is why this must be a national effort and of the highest importance. It is of national survival to secure our own in house energy supplies. I don't care how you do it but it better be done by x date or we will pay a price heavier then any economic disruptions caused by the transfer.

The fate of nations are decided by such things.
We are Americans! We innovate not vacillate!
Make it into a patriotic effort for the fate of the Republic...stuff like that. Our own Energy, Our own Jobs!

You would get votes...

By the way this was a one vehicle accident in the wee hours of the morning. The first report showed a fireman saying there was something odd about the driver, but they got rid of him.
Trial Run?

auntbea...I can give you my personal opinion.
More is to come! The wise will know what we facing and be prepared.

It would be nice, comet:

It's also been attempted, repeatedly.
Problem is (same as the last 30 years)...
1) eco-gestapo cringes just at the word "nuclear", let alone nuclear plants themselves. Good thing is, despite their frantic screaming, there are 140+ licenses ready to go now (even the Democrats realize, unless we want to end up in mud huts, we have no choice-it's the screaming leftist loons far on the fringe that are freaking out)
2) Same eco-gestapo REALLY cringes at the words "coal" & "oil" (forget conversion currently being expensive for now, but slowly becoming more efficient & probably economical by 2010-2012)
3) Same eco-gestapo allows liquid form, but NO "nuke" related anything, especially byproducts, as their reaction is like introducing kryptonite to superman.
4) Same eco-gestapo has repeatedly thwarted efforts to domestically drill for decades, not just years. Even the Teamsters Union was all for it as it would employ, at least, 250,000 oilworkers, ay most 400,000, not including support people that would bring the tally to almost a million employed...tomorrow. So much for "jobs".
5) Now you're onto something...many have been slowly introduced into the corporate sector (yes, just like the show "Tactical to Practical". Problem is, some are a little too sensitive to release just yet (even thoughI have misgivings about withholding some, I can understand why)- after all, lunatics like Kim Jong-Il, the mOslem munchkin, et.al would love to get their hands on a LOT of our toys...so that's a tough one, though not impossible.
It is being brough about...we just don't hear much about it, as MSM won't give PR to their enemies.

Heck, same people who used to promote wind & solar in California here decades ago are (yes, same folks) now screaming about how the solar plant is causing ecodamage to the desert (spotted owl syndrome, lol), and the props on the wind farm (the one near Livermore, CA is HUGE) is hurting birds (get this) because they fly into it.
The owners now say "wtf's wrong with those wackos??? First they push this down our throats as if it's a savior of the planet (never mind it's inefficient & unpredictable as hell), now they're bitching about the same thing they just got done pushing down our throats??? MAKE UP YOUR MIND WACKOS!" (their words, not mine)

Said ideas were brought forth a couple years ago...by the same evil GWBush they so excoriate.
Only thing that would make sense as to why such a confict-of-interest would be the party letter after the guys name (his is a "R", their buddies have a "D")...nothing else makes sense, nor holds any weight of validity. But, the eco-gestapo isn't known for making sense...just noise.
Sad to say, it's a mess, but there it is.

European Crusader

Your challenge to Morgaan will never be taken up. That would be far too logical for her to undertake. Instead you will get unaccountability and lack of responsibility for her anti Serb statements. Morgaan means well in some ways, she understands jihad in a half baked way, but if she cannot take up your honest challenge, then she has been revealed

greatcometof1577

It's not coal conversion to oil that you want. What you want is excavation of our great Western coal reserves. They are low sulfur and can undergo liquefaction into diesel, heating oil, jet fuel, kerosene which are all very similar. Start converting our automobile fleet to diesel through attrition and we will gain lots of energy independence

Heavier coal fractions will go to tar and asphalt
The global warming hypochondriacs are blocking coal conversion efforts. Meanwhile China is about to pull ahead of us as the #1 emitter of so called greenhouse gasses and is not bound by Kyoto treaty

Good point dennis...

And our coal reserves will last centuries if I am reading the eia/doe stats correctly.

My understanding is that you are banned for comments earlier today calling for the extermination of a large tract of a certain population.
So, my question is ... why are you still here? Or did you manage to gain a reprieve? Or did you find a way to slip around the system?
Well, we'll see. I've written to JW management. Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

For someone good at accusing others of being liars, you aren't too bad at it yourself. Anybody who read the deleted comment knows that in the context of the above story, I was suggesting that US Muslims take up the Islamic leader's offer and go to Kosovo, and that the Serbs take them out, just as US troops would if they were to do a John Walker Lindh and end up in the Taliban army. It was partly tongue in cheek, but I'm not offended that it was deleted, given the proclivities of too many people to read what they imagine, and imagine what they read.

Anyway, I checked my e-mails - and nothing from anybody here, informing me that I've been banned. And I had no problems logging on like I normally do, so that obviously hasn't happened. As to your question of why I'm here, it is a place where like minded people are. The people who recognize Islam as the problem. Not radical Islam. Not Wahabism. Not Salafists. Plain Islam. As laid out by Abul Qasem Mohammed ibn Abdullah ibn Muttalib. A.k.a. 'Prophet' Mohammed. I care about other people (outside my own religious/ethnic group) who are at the receiving end of Islamic hatred. Like Jews. Serbs. Thai. Ethiopians. Western Europeans. Russians. Chinese. Burmese. Cypriot Greeks. Et al. I don't hang about on Daniel Pipes, or Islamist-Watch, since I don't agree with him, and therefore don't support his goals.

Unlike you, while I don't mind arguments and debates - have been on them on both usenet, as well as mailing lists in the past on different subjects, some related to Islam, some not - I'm not an intellectual masochist, and more imporatantly, I don't frequent websites where I'd obviously not be welcome - for instance, Islamic or Leftist websites. I look at websites as private property, like someone's house, and only go to those where I sense that I'm likely to be welcome (just as I'd physically only visit the homes of friends, not adversaries). That's how I sense JW. That said, if Robert, Marisol or any other moderator told me that I was no longer welcome, I'd take the hint: I wouldn't try to 'get a reprieve', or 'slip around the system'.

Only thing - my support to the Serbs makes me more compatible with the bulk of posters of this site. Nonetheless, go ahead. Join the JW staff, and then ban me. Also get rid of Jatras, and then follow it up with disciplining Hugh and Greg Davis - both of whom are on record as supporting a post Milosevic Serbia. Let's see how far you can pull this off.

My gut instincts tell me that Hugh is more likely to recite the Shehada before this happens.

I'll bet that if you took a poll of JW posters (not counting the Naseems, Abdullah, Haidons and UnAmericans), 95%+ would tell you that they support the Serbs. Including the Jews. Including the Catholics. Including every other anti-Islamic group you can think of.

FWIW I'm Jewish and have always supported the Serbs since 1999 when Clinton/NATO were threatening to bomb them. I am against all Jihads and Muslim irredentism

Dennisw

Thank you - my point precisely. I support Jewish claims on Jerusalem. Serb claims on Pristina. Russian claims on Grozny. Armenian claims on Nagorno Karabakh. Filipino claims on Mindanao.

Is it because I regard Jerusalem as God's promised land? Do I have my own emotional attachments to Kosovo? Do I nurture feelings of revenge as an Armenian, or am I a Filipino with territorial ambitions on Mindanao?

Nope - none of the above. As a Hindu, what the Serbs/Israelis/Armenians/Filipinos do in itself doesn't interest me, just as I look at Slovakia seceding from Czechoslovakia as their business, not mine. But I'd hate to see any more victories for the ummah: therefore, all of the above peoples get my support - Deserved or not.

For other conflicts, I judge them on their own individual merits. I am ambivalent about Serbia vs Croatia, although I recognize that Croatia was pro Nazi during the war, and given the argument between those 2 countries, I'm more likely to support Serbia. Incidentally, I support Croatia against the Bosnian Mohammedans as well. I'm not aware of Serbia going to war against Montenegro for wanting to secede from Yugoslavia, but maybe I missed that.

Actually dennis...

...there are also about 95% of american military think we attacked the wrong enemy (we really wanted no part of it as we knew from experience what happens when mOslems gain the upper hand, and frankly, we didn't give a rats @$$), and that was before 9/11. Still do...but we had the "smartest woman in the world"s hubby running things then, which on several occasions nearly caused mass mutiny in every branch...but that's another forum.

There are people on this site suffering from protagonism mania. Do not feed it by getting in useless debates with them.

I love the Internet. Tonight I learned a new word; ‘hymenoplasty’. I hereby define the male equivalent as a kucinichoplasty ©.

I have decided to offer kucinichoplasties for $3100. My primary tools are daytime TV and a picture of Ibrahim Hooper. I am a kucinichoplastisticist, offering renewal for straying husbands.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=healthNews&storyid=2007-04-30T014907Z_01_L25320251_RTRUKOC_0_US-MUSLIMWOMEN-EUROPE-VIRGINITY.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

p.s. Having read further into the article and finding out that most hymenoplasties are paid for by the taxpayer, my price is $5800.

It is later than we recognize.

ROFLMAO @ kucinichoplasty
(almost fell out of my chair on that one)
omg, that's a good one!
Ya know if this keeps up Robert will have to develop JWs own glossary.
lol

The Morgaan Snob-Show was damn good this time, as her heinous never fails to entertain the peons of JW.

Ms. Mo, how on earth do you put up with such stupidity from other posters? And I am so jealous of your intellect and your ability to make friends. God I wish I were you!

Ha Ha..."her heiness"....although heinous works too.

Infidel Pride

This site is called JihadWatch and we are all anti Jihad. As a Jew I appreciate your Hindu understanding and sympathy for Israel. I think the same way for India and all its problems with widespread Muslim terrorism and aggression is Kashmir. I was happy the Babri Mosque was demolished to restore the original Rama Temple. 99% of the time it's the Muslims who destroy their enemy's holy sites

I am against all Jihads! Even when they are not called Jihad such as the mass murder of millions of Armenians and Greeks in the 1920s and before by allegedly secular Turks. Such as the Jihad which has dispossessed Serbs from their historic Jerusalem of Kosovo

Um champ?
Shouldn't the "h" be silent on heinous? lol

And amen to what dennis said of India.
After all, they have far more experience dealing with them than all of our countries combined...by about 1,000 years.

jcom972

It might be a bit of hyperbole but I've heard we (USA) are the OPEC of coal reserves. We have massive low sulfur Western deposits just waiting to be extracted via open pit mining. That coal is sent on mile long coal trains to St Louis and other Mid American cities to be "converted" to electricity. We need to gear up coal liquefaction pilot projects to prove feasibility of making diesel fuel, heating oil, jet fuel from coal. Nazi Germany did coal conversion 66 years ago and the methods are much much better now. Much research has been ongoing

Under Tito Constitution Serbia,Croatia,Slovenia,Bosnia,Macedonia,Montenegro were "autonomous republics" with the right to secede. On the contrary Kosovo and Voivodina were "autonomous regions" inside Serbia with no right to secede.
The same distinction existed in Soviet Union where "soviet republics" had the right to secede while "autonomous regions" like Chechnya had not the same right.
When communism collapsed the West and ex-Soviets agreed to respect all the provisions of past constitutions about borders and sovereignty to avoid chaos and civil war-in the case of Russia with the possible use of nuslear weapons-that is why Russians accepted peacefully independence of all soviet republics but not Chechnya,and the West never recognized an independent Chechnya despite the anti-Russian rhetoric.
This rule of international law is going to be violated for the first time now in Kosovo.
In previous cases i.e. Bosnia,Croatia international law was with NATO,not with the Serbs because these republics had -under previous constitution- the right to secede.
In Kosovo case international law supports the Serb position.
Make no mistake,Kosovo independence is a violation of Helsinki Treaty and the sign that the borders in Europe can change through war for the first time after 1945.
It is also considered all over Balkans,combined with US support of Turkey s entrance in European Union as a sign that US supports the restoration of the Ottoman Empire in a modern form.

And amen to what dennis said of India. After all, they have far more experience dealing with them than all of our countries combined...by about 1,000 years. Posted by: jcom972

Don't mean to nitpick, but make that 400 years. India was second invaded in 1000AD, whereas Constantinople fell in 1453AD. Note that Constantinople was beseiged by the Arabs in 674AD, while Sind temporarily fell to the Arabs in 643AD, and Thane (near Mumbai) was attacked as early as 637AD. As far as Serbia goes, the battle of Kosovo took place in 1389, and as for Israel, Jerusalem fell in 637AD - the conquest of Palestine was pretty much part of the conquest of Syria. Sure, India took the brunt of it in a big way, with 100m+ Hindus being wiped out between 1000AD and 1761AD, but by no means did they have to endure the Jihad any longer than say, the Jews in Palestine, and not that much less than the Serbs in Serbia (not just Kosovo).

Should have transposed 'Jews' and 'Serbs'. Oh, well...

Ok, IP...I'll go with that...was speaking figuratively in jest, but you are correct nonetheless (I'll give you a heads-up next time, sorry man...lol)

Well dennis:

I don't know about an "opec" lol...ok, just kiddin', I get what you're saying. Yes, we have more coal than everyone, and the technology is there (much of it being undeveloped further is our fault for not exploiting it). Problem with many reserves is that before we could do it "en masse", Clinton declared much of the largest vein in the US a "national park" to make it off limits (gee...wonder why) in Utah (which he placed 3rd, behind ross perot in 1992- couldn't be revenge, could it?). But that aside...

Yes, some of those trains are more than a mile long...you should see the ones coming out of Wyoming! (You mentioned St Louis...you live near there? and is one of the plants owned by Amaren? Just curious, as I am familiar with the area)

Anyway, the technology was expensive (especially to the nazis, but that's another issue and a given due to their predicament). We have rejuvenated the tech on it, and have gone full tilt...the better it's developed, the better, faster, and cheaper it will be produced.
Suffice it to say, we're going balls-to-the-wall on it, and even with a 30% efficiency rating in production (30% oil produced per unit of coal), we can still tell opec, and the whole world for that matter, that well-known 'net term: FOAD!

I haven't even bothered to mention the rejuvenated oil shale projects starting back up in an area known as "the triangle" (Utah, Wyoming, Colorado, and those recent surveys have proven equally HUGE) whereas that technology is also being brought off the shelf, too...since it's even easier to do than coal liquefaction (shale's actually softer than bituminous coal in many spots & in some instances can be crushed by hand-I'll keep you posted on that one). We would easily become the worlds largest oil producer...again.

(Also in the mean time, keep eye on a conventional oil group, Kodiak Energy, ticker-KDKN...you may find it interesting to watch in the future)

All, in all...right on dennis.
I would pay to see the looks on their faces when their immortal enemy tells them "FOAD", eliminating most of their business. It would be one for the ages! LOL

morgaaaaaaaaaan.. noone but you wants to see infidel pride gone. So if his presence offends you.. why don't you remove yourself?

I enjoy his posts and find them enlightening. And most of the others as well. Too many to name.

I have no use for you morgaaaaaaaaaaan nor for Nazeem [ though she's funnier than you are ] and Abby and Un American.

Even Schmuckel is beginning to see the light.

The Serbs have suffered the most under islam of all Europeans. Yet they've resisted. They must be doing something right. We should learn from the BEST - instead of fighting them on behalf of the bin Ladies of the world.

Pfui, morgaaaaaaaaann!!

September 2003 ... Wesley Clark -- NATO commander during the war in Kosovo -- announces he plans to run for the Democratic nomination for the U.S. presidency.

Maybe you'd like to see him President in o8, Morgaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan?

Interesting also that you like to quote the OSCE on things. They have been majorly infiltrated by moslems. But then your Haaaavaaad self already knows that I am sure. Which makes me wonder why you would cite the OSCE to begin with.

Any questions?

And BTW, since you claim to have seen "PC Multiculturalist" stars in my eyes, what color are my eyes, and how many stars were there?
[...]

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

Funny, I see the same PC multikulti tendencies that remote has mentioned. No stars though, sorry hon.

More outrageous morgaaaaaaaanisms:

Serbs are not better than the rest of the people in the world, as Germans were not. It is not their right to exterminate, deport, gendercide, genocide, torture and rape those of another ethnic origin or another religion.

HOW can these two things compare? She's practically deranged.

God help us!

I have not seen such a anti-Serbian hysteria since the CNN discussion board of 1999. Is Morgaan actually Jane Clayson? Moderate muslims again? I will believe in them when they actually appeal for REFORM of islam. You know like Christians in medieval Europe. Reformation, replacement of the dogma etc. That is moderation. The rest is simply insignificant delay in the massacres leading to world caliphate. Albs just take it slower, but when it comes to the "Proper use and treatment of infidels" they will be right by their muslim brethren, and will not care who in the West supported independent kosova. Only then will Sinclair learn who was right in tonights argument. BTW it is well known in the US forces what is the treatment of NATO personnel by kosovars today.

God, help us!

And she wrote this:

It is unfortunate if Serbs cannot remain living among the Albanians the Albanians in Kosovo, but I think that is their choice.

WHOSE CHOICE, morgaaaaaaaaan??! I've seen the videos of the church burnings and the way they rip the crucifixes off the steeples. The moslems are MONSTRES!!

And I'm not sending any more of my children to wars there American blood is supposed to buy hegemony for tyrannical groups of any kind.

And that includes the Serbs.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

How many of your children have you sent? If they're anything like you they'd just get in the way of the real fighters anyway.

And so far, neither USA or NATO have done much good for Serbia either.

Can't argue with the insane, can one?

LMAO @ wesley clark running for prez.

The flake on an ego trip, same clown who nearly started WWIII by his ordering allied (british) general to fire on Russian paratroopers at an airstrip (The Lt general parked him rightfully: "I shall not help you start world war 3!"), & we haven't forgotten that outrageous stupidity on his part (he was forcibly retired because of it).

Prez? Not a chance...unless of course, hell freezes over tomorrow! What a buffoon...LOL.

Morgaan Sinclair wrote (addressed to me):
"It is absolutely extraordinary -- and very telling -- that somehow even the smallest comments in opposition to rank Serb control of all the Balkans are met with such comity -- and that it is always taken to the most debased level of personal insult -- with declarations about my politics, and multiple accusations that are supposed to either frighten me into submission or silence or character assassinate me into oblivion.
But it won't work. I have many faults, but cowardice isn't one of them."

Morgaan - there is nothing I wrote that most people would regard as particularly insulting. And I am genuinely perplexed that anything I wrote should 'frighten' you.

My only crime was not realising quite what a delicate flower you are.

Yup, there have been church burnings ... and the burnings and destruction of 1,400 mosques.

Milosevic's guys told Serbs in Kosovo to leave before laid siege to Kosovo, not wanting their own people killed in the bloodbath they carried out. That is why I say the 90% Albanian majority in Kosovo is a Serbian creation.

Infidel Pride should be banned for constant, continuous personal attacks on all who don't agree with him. Like European Crusader, Allahfancula, and remote_control he simply cannot tolerate the opinions of others, and always resorts to personal attacks instead of discussing issues.

remote_control should also be banned for his support of pornography that is violence against both women and the men it infects.

And as I said before also, if we want to accept that Serbs have the right to throw the Albanians out of Kosovo on the grounds of its being their "ethnic lands" ... then I think we need to all pack up and go back to Europe and wherever else because actually ALL of the Americans are aboriginal ETHNIC LANDS and we don't belong here.

Now if you want to get real technical about it, the first settlers of the Balkans were Turkish tribes from Anatolia some 5,000 years ago. Followed by Illyrian tribes (forebears of the Albanians) a few years later. They settled the entire Balkans area.

Serbs (Serboi) are first mentioned by Tacitus and are related to the Chechens, and the first mention of them is at 50 BC, some 4,000 years after the Turkish and Illyrian forebears of today's Albanians settled in the Balkans.

Now, if you want to keep running with ethnic supremacist "ethnic lands" crap, know this: it's a game you'll lose. Because if you want to claim that you're doing as the Jews are in Israel with "ancestral lands" then likely the Jews will win their case and you will lose yours. Because historically it just doesn't hold water.

But, of course, it's just another "excuse" for taking what you want without letting anybody else, who's the same human being as you are, have a vote.

Or, as GreatComet1577 says, that kind of suspension of any human rights considerations is a sacrifice he can make. But it's not a sacrifice he will make. It's a sacrifice SOMEBODY ELSE HAS TO MAKE.

You just don't have the right to violate the basic humanity of other peoples, particularly those NOT waging jihad against you (whom we'd all be better off supporting and protecting), just because you want to take their land.

Schemegel, I actually wasn't talking specifically to you, but generally about the psychological violence visited on this board on anyone who doesn't toe the line. I don't find your posts in general part that way particularly. I find your final zing fairly deprecating, however.

Of fuck, it's Moron Spamclair.

Spam spam spam spam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:MontySpam.jpg

Which one are you Spamclair?

Hey, Spamclair ole chappie , tell us why your beloved KLA freedom fighters , in November 1997 , made the following communique

"Every collaborator whom in this form or that causes harm to the Albanian nation is to suffer"

?

What about the hundreds of loyalist Kosovo Albanians who paid the price for their loyalty to Belgrade and were tortured to death by the KLA

?

Hey, Spamclair, regale us about the illustrious exploits of that merry band of freedom fighters, the black eagles , who were based in the village of Rznic, and under the command of Balaj and therefore to Haradinaj?

I'm sure we'd all love to hear about how this charming group of revellers and rakes treated any - Catholic - Kosovo Albanian "collaborator" they found.

I'll help you out, Spamclair.

How about Pal Krasniqi, a Catholic Kosovo Albanian who was accused of being a Serb spy - this in reality meant he had a ethnic Serb or Roma - Gypsy - girlfriend , I'm not making this up - He was tortured and finally the KLA did something merciful to him. They put a bullet in his head and put him out of his pain. His body was recovered with numerous fractures and many gunshot wounds to the legs , etc.

Or tell us about the elderly Kosovo Albanian couple , Nurije and Istref Krasniqi.

Their crime? Why they were on good terms with a Montenegrin neighbour - which meant they were "collaborators" to those plucky KLA Black Eagles - who murdered them.

I'll let you take over from here , Spamclair.

jcom972

I'm on the East Coast. We mostly ban coal fired plants. We're too good for that. Instead Boston has massive natural gas terminals in Everett where Algerian natural gas comes in for heating and cooking. Most coal plants are in the Middle USA as far I can tell which is closer to those Western coal reserves. Yes, Bill Clinton put some massive Utah cola reserves into a national park, beyond exploitation. But we still have a lot more in Colorado, Wyoming (Powder Basin) and Montana

I have never seen mile long coal trains but was able to easily visualize them thanks to John McPhee's excellent New Yorker articles on Powder Basin coal and its transportation.
http://oook.info/envir/mcpheecoal.html

Glen Beck is Mormon and in his Connecticut church met his fellow Mormon who runs Jet Blue. The Jet Blue CEO came up with a visionary program of Federal incentives and guarantees to build 10 pilot coal conversion plants. http://www.glennbeck.com/2006ads/jbluctl.pdf GE is ready to go and build such projects, so is our Air Force.Coal conversion doesn't mean coal into oil but means coal converted into oil fractions such as jet fuel which Jet Blue is interested in.

----even with a 30% efficiency rating in production (30% oil produced per unit of coal), we can still tell OPEC, and the whole world for that matter, that well-known 'net term: FOAD!

That leftover 70% can definitely be burned in situ and turned into electricity or hydrogen if we somehow get into hydrogen fuels for transport

So my favorite anti Muslim solution is to use our Western coal to the maximum. Burn it directly with new clean coal technologies to make electricity. And convert it to diesel, kerosene, heating oil and jet fuel. View coal as a very very heavy crude. Just needs to be refined. Most Arab oil is light (sweet) crude while Hugo Chavez has heavy (sour) crude which makes excellent asphalt products from what I hear. Less gasoline can be taken from heavy crude. Even less from coal liquefaction. Diesel fuel extraction must be the goal with the long term goal of running our automobiles on diesel

Bio fuels are very problematic. It's near impossible to duplicate in a growing season what took nature millions of years to make from vegetation. Most of our coal and oil is eons old aquatic algae and plants, aged and compressed and carbonized

WEST COAST is so degenerate that they ordain all new power plants must be gas fired for less pollution. Then the eco-nuts turn around and protest against a new natural gas terminal off the Santa Monica coast. That's how confused and stupid they are. Uranium prices are up. American coal is my solution

DennisW ...

The problem is that coal is far more polluting when burned than oil or natural gas. Soot stays in the air only for a couple of days, but the CO2 stays in the atmosphere for a century, with only 40% of it now uptaken by the oceans -- which are becoming ever more acidic on account of that.

CO2 sequestration then becomes a must if we are to burn it cleanly, and then we still have to deal with China, which surpassed us (with a population 3X ours, however) in atmospheric emissions last week. This is having devastating consequences for the people of Japan in the bullseye of China's pollution stream, but is also having increased impact on the people of the Pacific Northwest who are now daily breathing China's effluent. Given the massive droughts known to have occured in the entire American West as the result of flucutations in climes both polar and equatorial, and in both cases warmer times in both areas caused it. So warming of anything more than about another .5C might create both "Dust Bowls" in the Midwest and heavy, sustained (centuries) droughts in the Southwest and West, including a deep fall in rains to the Northwest.

So, coal, though abundant, needs to be used in tandem with carbon sequestration if it's to work favorably for us.

But it can certainly buy us some time. The problem will be that although America is likely to take some precautions with the lungs of its people, you can't depend on China to give a tinker's dam on that one, for their own people or ours. And they will be highly reliant on coal in the next two or three decades, if not longer.

But having judicious use of coal buy us some time is probably a good idea while the Wizards of Industry come up with some great things, among which are the following:

There is now a rooftop wind machine that sells for about $19,000 (installed). In a roof upslope draft of just 5 degrees (and the shape of the average roof itself will give you that), it begins to spin, producing enough energy for a 2,000-square foot home running every major appliance and providing hot water for at least four people. The energy intake for a family of four from the "power companies" is $0.00 per year, and they would be able to sell back power to the grid if it weren't blocked by multiple laws that exist here, but not in Europe, which is now get a US brain drain because climate-based industry finds it easier to create new technologies in Europe than in America. Converting your home now for less than $20,000 sounds like a bargain to me. For new homes, it's an astonishing value becuase it replaces electrical HVAC systems and grid-connections and taxes and energy costs from the start.

Converting your old 57 Chevy to burn corn or switchgrass ethanol costs only $72. It's a matter of replacing NO engine parts, just some of the old-style ducts that carry the gas from the tank to the engine.

If everybody in American shut off their computers and peripherals at night, we would be at a goal of 5% reduction in energy use tomorrow night.

Combining trips for groceries and other things to once a week would also put us there rapidly, as would the use of public transportation for commuting about half the time.

Saab will be introducing a car in 2011 that will provide a 70% reduction in emissions. Japanese auto makers are following suit. American automakers are far behind.

U.S. statutes that make it impossible for Saudis to manipulate the US oil market would be a boon to everybody on earth. Here's how it works. Whenever Americans get huffy about getting energy independent the Saudis release their own huge reserves of light sweet crude, causing a precipitous drop in the cost of oil per barrel. Americans respond by runnign out and buying the largest urban assault vehicle they can find, believing (1) that gas prices will remain tolerable forever and (2) that the Saudis can be trusted when they say they have a 200-year supply that they'll be willing to always share with us (ha!).

The solution, says R. James Woolsey, is to "set" the price of a barrel at $60, and create a stable cost of gasoline, and manage any differences out of an expanded strategic oil reserve. This removes the incentive for the Saudis to play in American politics, because if they try to take the price down in America they can't -- and if they raise it too far (making the Chinese pay the same price), America just stops buying until they recover some semblance of ethics again.

So, we definitely have the power. The question is whether we have the will. The growing number of children losing their childhoods to asthma hope will do.

I believe JW posters are wasting their time trying to argue with that Morgaan Sinclair or better as Moron Spamclair(ROFLMAO)like ewha1 said. I am always sick of those who try to propagate something by huge copy/paste posts with arguments that are from some past time.
Well Spamclair,
this site is definately a wrong place to advertise muslims.I guess you can try somewhere else where you won't be alone. On the other hand, all things you are saying about Serbs are also thing of the past CNN era. Today people even in America know better than that.Information about what Clinton administration really did in Balkans is now widely available and smart people can make their judgement much easier.I think probably 70% people here thought like you in the 90's, but since then all events are uncovered and you have been missing classes.Now go and sit in the corner!

Morgaan S: "remote_control should also be banned for his support of pornography that is violence against both women and the men it infects."

You endorse banning people for their political opinions? (and apparently are quite successful at running to the JW staff to get comments deleted that you disapprove of), yet are the one who states so loudly and with great grandiosity in every thread, 'Who the hell do you think you are! I Morgaan will not be silenced!'

Do you really not see the irony? I can guarantee you that the rest of us do. You're behaving, as you often do, like a bully (yet you accused Champ of being a bully), and a control-freak (which is why it is indeed amusing to see you take issue with The Regulator's handle). The projection is astounding.

BTW - I read your post seeming to excuse revenge on the part of the Muslims exactly as remote did. To call him a liar and slanderer for that comment is ridiculous.

Caroline ...

Here is the ENTIRE post of mine. You're as bad as remote_control, and of course, I haven't forgotten that you and Infidel Pride and he travel as an pack of slavering attack dogs.

Here is the ENTIRE post -- not the sliver you are hoping to lie with (again):

Armalite, *** you will find no truly innocent people here *** , but the fact is that the revenge visited on Serbs, FOR WHICH I EXPECT A NUMBER OF BOSNIANS, KOSOVARS AND CROATS TO BE CONVICTED BY THE HAGUE, followed the fact that the Serbs shelled Sarajevo for THREE YEARS ***AFTER*** they disarmed them. So they shelled a defenseless city for three years.

And the Albanians finally got enough of seeing people mowed down by the thousands and took revenge as well.

I DON'T CONDONE IT. But they didn't start it, unless you consider the audacity of thinking your vote can count against another ethnic group's supremacist hegemony to be a crime punishable by death.

Perhaps to get a more balanced view you should spend some time listening to the other side talk about it. I would suggest you talk to so Kosovar Catholics and Serbian Jews while you're at it.

And talk to some of the people who were around from 1991 - 1997.

Timeline provided above. It's a real education.

Also, see a documentary called "The Children of Kosovo." I promise you that whatever tales of abuse of the Serbs you've heard won't hold a candle to the degree and MASSIVE LEVEL of the abuse of all other ethnic groups by the Serbs, who appropriated all of the materiel of the former Yugoslavia for themselves and then used it on the other groups.

The simple fact is: the Serbs considered all of the Balkans to be their personal possession and they were willing to genocide, gendercide, rape, torture, murder, force-march to create the glorious dream of "Greater Serbia" in which Serb ethnicity ruled all. I'm not sure any of us could really call that something we could support.

I wish you every safety and security in Afghanistan and pray for your safe return.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 29, 2007 06:39 PM

---------------------

Now, just how do you "read it" as remote_control did when you ignore the fact I say it was NOT condoned and that I fully expected convictions of Croats, Bosnians and Kosovars on human rights violations, which they deserve.

What a trashy, lying thing for you do.

And BTW, do YOU have daughters? How do you feel about pornography? This is fine with you?

OMG!!!
What a bunch of BS from this Morgaan Sinclair guy. You should be ashamed.

If you knew 1% of the real truth about ex Yugoslavia and history of Balkans peoples, you wouldn't have been saying such things.

Serbs and Islam in Balkans... 500 years of Otoman opression, sticking on spikes, taking and converting young children, bloodshed and terror. Then 20th century with two World Wars where muslims aligned with any enemy of the Serbs. More terror... And when Serbs in the 1990s tried to fight back with equal determination, they have been called new-nazi-Germans-genocide-beasts in Europe, bombed and excluded from international community. Lies of muslims and CNN (100.000 raped women, 300.000 killed) covered the real facts. They've only tried to protect their living space, because one third of the Serbs found themselves outside Serbia after collapse of Yugoslavia (which they had seen as their state, unlike other nations), stripped of their constitutional rights and forced to subdue to Bosnian jihadists or Croat nazis. After such historical memories, who wouldn't fight for freedom?

It is a lie that Serbs wanted Great Serbia. That was pipe dream of certain marginal elements of Serbian elite, but that plan was NEVER part of any mainstreem policy troughout the history. That was prooved in the Hague on Milosevic trial. Serbs had Yugoslavia, great state they had created (liberating all south Slaves from Otomans and Germans after WW1), and could have called home for all the Serbs, although they lived in diferent republics. Only after colapse of Yugoslavia, Serbian national issue came to surface.

BTW, you all should know that Skenderbeg (Albanian mythical prince) was half Serb, and christian. He was ally of Serbia, fighting Otomans, his crest was white (not black, nowdays Albanian) eagle. So what did make of Albanians such problem in Balkans? Islam, I'll tell you...

Morgaan: "What a trashy, lying thing for you do."

I still read your post as to some extent excusing their behavior from a psychological POV. So what if I do? That is my opinion. How that interpretation on my behalf is "trashy" and "lying", escapes me.

My opinion about pornography is irrelevant here as we're not discussing pornography. Judging from what you did to remote, though, after soliciting his opinion, I can surmise that if I stated I was not opposed to it you would demand my banishment as well. You act like a petty tyrant, and a bully and a control freak. Notice, I state that you "act like", not that you are. That is my opinion of your behavior, which I am entitled to state.

As to traveling like a pack of slavering attack dogs with IP and remote, you’ll have to show me where I’ve mounted sustained attacks against fellow anti-jihadist posters here – yourself included. On the contrary, I have mostly maintained my silence on previous threads on which you’ve been posting. But you are trying to ban two of the very best debaters against the jihadist trolls that come here. If that makes them “attack dogs”, good for them! Why would you want to ban some of the best anti-jihad debators on the site Morgaan? I thought you were an anti-jihadist yourself? Apparently your own ego trumps the anti-jihad goal if you would call for the banning of those two posters.

Sorry, WallsofByzant ...

The Serbs warred against their names on ethnic and religious grounds. They ripped off any semblance of the right to vote, answering vote after vote for independence from them, with debased warfare. I would be the first agree that the war crimes committed by Albanians, Croats and Bosnians deserve the same treatment as those committed by Serbs.

However, there is absolutely no question that the Serbs started all these wars from absolute intolerance of the concept that these people should ever allowed to be ruled by anyone but Serbs.

Note: The Serbs did not ask for the Great Federation of Free Balkan Peoples ... No, they asked for Greater Serbia, an ethnic state, and engaged in wars of ethnic cleansing.

And the fact that the Balkans were initially settled by Turkic tribes from Anatolia (5,000 BC), followed by Illyrian cultures, and then, much later by Serboi related linguistically to the Chechens, establishes an Albanian "ancestral lands", not Serbian ones -- if you want to make such a stupid arguemnt as that for supremacist warfare, which I don't suggest you do.

The fact is, Serbs should be apologizing for allowing a monster like Milosevic to run a racist war, rather than trying to defending your supposed right to cancel the vote of everybody who's not an ethnic Serb, put all the Balkans under Serb ethnic control, and kill anybody who disagrees with your notion of yourselves as vastly superior to every other breathing thing on earth.

You know, I didn't feel nearly as strongly about this earlier, but the behavior of the people on this website has driven me ever further from any sympathy whatsoever for the "Serb hegemonical position."

It was bad enough that Srdja Trifkovic got up on US TV and lied about the Srebrenica massacre film, even as the Serb government was apologizing the actions of the paramilitaries and the Serb Orthodox Church was having its heart blown out by the fact that some of its priests actually participated, something that can NEVER be attributed either to the Serb people per se or the Orthodox church.

But even now in Serbia, anybody who tries to talk about what happened with Milosevic is threatened or actually attacked, their presses shut down, their voice silenced, their families made to flee.

Thank you to remote_control, Infidel Price, Allahfancullah, Caroline, and European Crusader, et al.

I argued the Serb side of this with Albanians, Croats and Bosnians, in an effort to bring balance to the argument. I argued with Catholics and Jews who said Serbs were the anti-Christ.

It took you to convince me they were right.

Morgaan Sinclair....

Your long post is appreciated but predicated upon global warming being true. I say it's bunkum and if it ever pans out it will be a quite manageable few degrees. I doubt you can burn coal and use CO2 sequestration without making coal born electricity ridiculously expensive

Natural gas emits just as much CO2 as coal. Less of other pollutions but that's why you dig up our (USA) low sulfur Western coal and burn it with today's clean coal technologies

Caroline, I did not, nor do I ever, solicit the opinion of remote_control. I responded to his post.

I never speak first to a number of people on this board for whom I have respect -- including remote_control, Infidel Pride, Allahfancula, European Crusader, TheRegular, champ and you. So if you see a post of mine mentioning any of these people, scroll up. You'll find an attack on me somewhere.

And as far as this not being a board for discussing pornography, there are a number of boards dedicated to ANYTHING but anti-Semitism, but when anti-Semitism comes up, we have as much to say about it as we like, don't we? I think your opinion here is more about trying to shore up remote_contol's endless attacks than on an issue of pornography, about which I'd suggest you have just as much fear and disgust as I do.

Morgaan Sinclair....
You are missing the big picture when you home in on the Serbs. Their crimes are nothing compared to the global jihad and roughly equivalent to Muslim and Croatian atrocities in their era. So Serbs get a big yawn from me. Whatever they did unto the others was paid back in kind and now the Muslims have new Kosovo turf for their Dar al Islam. The Serbs kept Muslims at bay in the Balkans...that's why I support them. I am always against Muslim irredentism. That's why your Serb complaints fall on deaf ears. I don't friggin care!

But I do care about global Jihad. Because I think big and see big. I don't concentrate on what Slobodan Milosovich may or may have not done. Serbs versus Muslim expansionism?? My choice is easy

Morgaan: "I did not, nor do I ever, solicit the opinion of remote_control. I responded to his post."

remote stated his very brief and passing opinion of pornography, in the context of addressing the claim by another poster that he was a right-wing Republican.

You then gave your own opinion of pornography. Remote said nothing in response. You then wrote:

"remote_control -
Please respond to the post I wrote you about your support of pornography. Thank you.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 29, 2007 08:51 PM"

to which remote responded, entirely reasonably:

"As for the pornography issue, we'll just have to agree to disagree. While I might agree in part that pornography (of and for adults of course) has some bad effects, to me that is outweighed by the bad effects of the state regulating the free expression and appetites of citizens in a society that is not static and frozen in time, but is continually changing and progressing.
Posted by: remote_control [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 29, 2007 09:32 PM"

To which you called for his banishment:
"remote_control should also be banned for his support of pornography that is violence against both women and the men it infects."

I'm sure you can appreciate how absurd that is, considering so many of your previous posts, taking issue with what you perceived as posters trying to silence you for your opinions.

Also amusing is the contrast between these 2 posts:

Now, I would like the two of you remote_control and European Crusader to apologize to everybody on this forum for outright lying....You asked for proof. You got it. And you owe the entire JW group an apology.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 29, 2007 04:15 PM

“European Crusader ...
A couple of things you should understand:
I don't get ordered to respond by you.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 29, 2007 12:16 PM”

Like European Crusader, Allahfancula, and remote_control he simply cannot tolerate the opinions of others, and always resorts to personal attacks instead of discussing issues.

remote_control should also be banned for his support of pornography that is violence against both women and the men it infects.

Instead of banning us all you can also find a board with a more Liberal orientation. You forgot infidel pride. No longe rfeel like banning him?

You are definitely so Haaaavaaaaad. That's what they do in the land of censored thought [academia].. they BAN people. See Columbia/Minutemen. See Hirsi Ali/I forget the college.

You're in good company, Morgaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

"The Children of Kosovo."

Morgaaaaan, tell the truth.. your Serbian boyfriend dumped you years ago and you just haven't been able to get over it.

You know, most of the criticism of Harvard, about which you obviously know exactly nothing, comes from people who at least think they could never get in. Jealousy and envy leading to a descend into transparently tawdry name-calling, but people who can't do the math and whose reading comprehension is on the floor. Generally: bigoted and unthinking, intolerant and ignorant.

Taking some classes at Harvard doesn't equate to being brainwashed, and for your information I'm the one who's getting all kind of flack for being a conservative right now, which shows how much you know both about me and what's going on here.

Besides, I spent 58 of my 59 years elsewhere, so why are being such an insufferable trog about things and people you nothing about?

You leave me only with the conclusion that you are nonstop asshole and bully and stupid to boot.

And since the rest of you have been name-calling for two solid days, don't whine to me that I'm starting to give right back to you.

And BTW, Hirsi Ali spoke at Harvard, you moron.

You leave me only with the conclusion that you are nonstop asshole and bully and stupid to boot.

Interesting.. now the "academic" reorts to name-calling.

PS. And how much security did Hirsi Ali need so she could speak at your beloved Haaaavaaaad?

I, for one, have no desire at all to study at Haaavaaad. Sorry, but I am not at all jealous for not being afforded the privilege of being around a bunch of pretentious wanks.

I've met plenty o' the ol' Ivy Leaguers here in New York and I can tell one thing: They are rather inflexible intellectually and very convinced of their politically correct ways.

The brainwashing works very very well.

We all can see it in you, Morgaaaaaaan. It is you who fails to recognize that you've been brainwashed.

Name calling when you have run out of arguments. Oh, and calling for people to be banned. How many have you called for being banned in this thread alone?

I wouldn't call Morgaan Sinclair a "liar" -- that would take too much stability, cleverness and intelligence. One must conclude that she is a psychologically unstable delusional idiot for whose glaring deformities only electro-convulsive therapy in addition to a lobotomy at the hands of a Serbian doctor using no anesthetic except for a bottle of slivovitz would have the slim expectation of curing.

Look what she wrote to Caroline:

"Caroline, I did not, nor do I ever, solicit the opinion of remote_control. I responded to his post."

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 30, 2007 11:20 AM

Now look at what she wrote to me previously:

"remote_control

"Please respond to the post I wrote you about your support of pornography.

"Thank you."

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair [TypeKey Profile Page] at April 29, 2007 08:51 PM

Morgaan regularly blusters about like a bull in a china shop with such screamingly demonstrable untruths, and it puts any other supposed facts and interpretations she trumpets forth in an exceedingly dubious light. She's fascinating, like watching a train wreck in slo-mo.

remote, that was *priceless*!!

Here's more from our temporary distraction from the "rigors of jihad" morgaaaaaaaaan:

"And besides, being an insufferably judgmental pedant about people's English is a stupid thing for you to do when what you have is a severe inability just to think straight."

for the record, it's called Logic. Something you know little about. You have indeed been brainwashed in academialand.. or maybe since birth..

We can all see it. Only you can't. You're like that driver on the interstate desperately wondering why everyone else IS GOING THE WRONG WAY.

Someone needs to spend a little less time on JW and a lot MORE time under a therapists watchful eye.

Let the banning begin! I vote for Mo to go!!!

More outrageous morgaaaaaaaanisms:

Serbs are not better than the rest of the people in the world, as Germans were not. It is not their right to exterminate, deport, gendercide, genocide, torture and rape those of another ethnic origin or another religion.

HOW can these two things compare? She's practically deranged.
Posted by: Allahfanculo

I have to get back to this one. Like someone said above, the Serbs aren't trying to take over the world. Which makes them different from the Germans already.

Your comparison is thus as outrageous as it is inflammatory - especially if you take Serb sensitivities into consideration. Which clearly you don't.

It is also a completely fatuous comparison. VEry moslem-like indeed. They like to compare Israel to Nazi Germany.

What I am doing here is called comparative Logic, FYI, Morgaaaaan..

And since the Serbs have successfully resisted islam for centuries it makes them unique in my eyes. The only islamists you see, Morgaaaaan, are the one on TV complaining about us bad Western 'racists'.

The Serbs have seen the bloodthirsty sword-wielding, disemboweling kind that just murdered three Christians in Turkey.

You see, it is academics who come up with defeatist ideas such as "The end of History" because maybe they sound good and receive funds and praise for them.

The Serbs have not the luxury of this "end of History". Their History has been one of battling many enemies. Foremost among them - islam.

They have heard first-hand accounts of slaughter and genocide through the Centuries.

This is what islam DOES, Morgaaaaan.

It cannot be talked to. it cannot be reasoned with.

It is islam. It kills. that is what is does. it is programmed to take over and kill.

Any questions?

I never speak first to a number of people on this board for whom I have respect -- including remote_control, Infidel Pride, Allahfancula, European Crusader, TheRegular, champ and you.

My post - which you managed to get deleted - wasn't addressed to you. So your above claim is a Clintonesque parsing of terms - again, something that you chose to zing remote for. As Caroline so astutely points out, dripping with irony. Or put another way, you have the same double standards that Islam has - one set of rules for Muslims, and another, less equitable set for Infidels.

Small wonder you happen to find yourself on the same side as the ummah - your ostensible opposition to Jihad notwithstanding.

Allahfancula, European Crusader, TheRegular, champ ewha, Dennisw, schmegel and Caroline

Time for a pack meeting. :-)

Champ. I agree. I've never said anyone should be removed, and that includes Nazeem, abby and UnAmerican.

Though UnAmerican is as intransigent as Morgaaaan.
However, Morgaaaan and UnAmerican are reminders of just how much work remains to be done.

So I feel you viscerally wanting to see her gone.

But there are so many many like her.. relativationists who THINK they are anti-jihad.

and.. "we can't be like them" when we fight them..

They don't realize you don't kill an elephant with a toothpick.

Maybe someone reading these morgaaaaaantuan exchanges will realize the brainwashing dynamic that is at work and come to see the truth which is clear like water to many of us on the board.

Investigative journalist's home bombed
http://www.mediahelpingmedia.org/content/view/181/2/

On April 14, at 02.50 in the centre of Belgrade, two grenades exploded. They were planted in the bedroom window of prominent Serbian journalist Dejan Anastasijevic.

The first bomb exploded and the blast catapulted the second grenade into the street, into some parked cars and away from the sleeping bodies of Dejan, his wife and his fifteen-year-old daughter. This likely saved their lives.

Dejan, who writes for Vreme and TIME magazine, was among the witnesses against Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague International War Crime Tribunal. As a journalist, his main line of inquiry was the connection between war crimes committed by Serbian military and police all over former Yugoslavia in the nineties. A painful issue.

Recently the International War Crime Tribunal in the Hague held that the regime of Slobodan Milosevic cannot be directly linked to the mass graves in Kosovo and the genocide in Srebrenica. Therefore, the Serbian state is not formally guilty of genocide -- although genocide took place.

Genocide was committed, not by the state, but by non-state actors. Secret armed militias in disintegrating states were novelties in the 1990s. They're not any more.

Genocide was committed, not by the state, but by non-state actors. Secret armed militias in disintegrating states were novelties in the 1990s. They're not any more.

On April 10th, a verdict was issued at the special court for war crimes in Belgrade. This verdict involved the death squad called Scorpions, who were involved in the genocide in Srebrenica. In the spirit of the sentence of the Hague tribunal, the local tribunal also found the state of Serbia not guilty of genocide. Neither are the Scorpions guilty.

The Scorpion militia took the trouble to film one of their own misdeeds, so that the court witnessed the Scorpion defendants kicking bound teenage captives, jabbing them with gun barrels, denying them water, insulting them and then shooting them.

Nevertheless, this does not constitute proof of the grand-scale state-crime of genocide.

The bodies of the dead are there on film, the genocidal intent is obvious, but there is no clear legal chain of orders between any formal state apparatus and this covert squad of armed marauders.

Who ordered what, when, why...? A whirlwind in the storms of a disintegrating state, says the verdict.

The whole world saw the film that was the cause of the tribunal, so everyone knows at least that those five indicted Scorpions, in one way or another, did commit the murder of six innocent civilians merely guilty of being Moslems. The president of Serbia, Boris Tadic, declared after the sentence that such crimes deserved capital punishment.

But who in Serbia will give the order to legally kill the state's legally unsanctioned killers?
But who in Serbia will give the order to legally kill the state's legally unsanctioned killers?

The Scorpion death squad was tripped up by their urge to brag on video, but the same people who ruled Serbia during the nineties are still in power today.

Milosevic is dead, Mladic is hidden, but most of their colleagues and collaborators, open and covert, walk the streets of Belgrade, blustering and threatening about Kosovo and their political opponents.

The chief prosecutor of the Scorpions is not satisfied with the sentence. The lawyers of the victims are angry. The defence lawyers of the Scorpions are triumphant. In prison or out of it, the Scorpions consider themselves moral victors; with the evidence so crushingly against them, that strategy was the best they could hope for.

They do have one other strategy: the strategy of covertly killing people. A death squad is still a death squad, and a gangland atmosphere of lethal intimidation works as well on Serbs as it does on the alien Other (non-Serbs). The death squads lash out against journalists who report them; journalists such as Dejan Anastasijevic, who knows the situation well and publicly commented on the verdict.

Did the death-squad who planted grenades in his bedroom window take the trouble to film it?

As a few aging Scorpions shuffle off to prison for their crimes of many years ago, Serbian civil society remains imprisoned by its worst elements.

Journalist Slavko Curuvija was assassinated by Milosevic secret police hit-men, back in 1999. Our late premiere, Zoran Djindjic, was shot by state mafia in 2003.

That doesn't even count the havoc wreaked by state-mafia complex on its own death-squad soldiers, from Chief Tiger Arkan, shot in 2000, through hundreds of underworld less known bombed in cars, shot in cafes...

Dejan has many friends in the world and at home, but he and his family are profoundly unsafe, just like everyone else in a hollow state that secretly cherishes death squads while failing to keep public order.

Dejan has many friends in the world and at home, but he and his family are profoundly unsafe, just like everyone else in a hollow state that secretly cherishes death squads while failing to keep public order.

As long as Dejan writes the facts, as long as Serbia lives in organized denial, as long as the tribunals minimise the criminal issues in the name of reconciliation or realpolitik, the truth will act as a bomb in terrorist hands.

Ever since Milosevic reduced Yugoslavia to his private casino, the much battered entity called Serbia has never been a lawful state.

State failure may soon become a luxury that the Balkans can no longer afford. Although I never make decisions out of fear, I confess, I am afraid.

morgaan sinclair

I see you continue to entertain everybody with your comical writing.
In response to your previous statement: "I don't particularly find the return of the Cherkess to south Russian, from which they were deliberately transplanted by Soviet authorities 80 years ago surprising, as there is something thinking that they were complicit with the Serb aggression towards its neighbors in the wars of the 1990s. If you want people to believe to challenge my statement that the Cherkess were planted by the Soviets, then please provide a detailed history of their (supposedly) lengthy habitation of the Balkans."

I post a link to describe the history of the cherkess:

http://www.circassianworld.com/Circassian_History.html

You can read the following: "especially after the defeat of the Great Revolt (1825-1864) a Circassian mass exodus - 'One of the gre atest mass movements of population in modern history ' (Henze , 1986) - took place to Turkey and other areas of the Ottoman Empire, including the Middle East. One and a half million Circassians abandoned their ancient homeland, leaving behind scattered remnant communities .The Russian census of 1897 recorded only 150,000 Circassians, less the one tenth of the original population ."

As you see the cherkess left Russia for the ottoman empire (and kosovo was part of the ottoman empire then) in the period before 1864, that's at least 53 years before the Soviet union was created. (But perhaps in your imagination they are lying about their own history as part of an anti-morgaan sinclair conspiracy??)

Now I hope you will apologize on your knees to everybody on this forum for outright lying. I also hope that "the professor" you are listening to is really a psychiatrist that can help you.

Dejan, who writes for Vreme and TIME magazine, was among the witnesses against Slobodan Milosevic at the Hague International War Crime Tribunal. As a journalist, his main line of inquiry was the connection between war crimes committed by Serbian military and police all over former Yugoslavia in the nineties. A painful issue.

A painful traitor. How do you think the French Resistance handled Collaborateurs?

Your hatred for the Serbs is well-documented and noted by all. You don't need to convince anyone further.

We believe you. That you hate Serbs.

We on the other hand, hate jihadists.

Serbs do a wonderful job knowing the problem and dealing with it. Serbia is on THE FRONT LINES of the jihad against Europe right now.

Soon they'll roll right over Austria into Switzerland where so-called "refugees" who've been turned down engage in "political activities" once inside Switzerland so they can collect a fat stipend from the Swiss Taxpayer.

I have no pity of these bloodsuckers end up dead somewhere. Sorry, Morgaaaan.

They are stealing from us, robbing us, assaulting us, insulting us, raping us and we are FED UP!!

So we have come to understand what the Serbs have been saying about what they are dealing with.

Have fun listening to the caterwauling of the muezzin five times a day in Boston soon afte rthe mosk has been built, Morgaaan.

Allahfanculo -- thanks, and I can see your point. But at least Naseem and UnAmerican are not running to the principals office every chance they get in an attempt to ban someone.

Mo does entertain the troops though, that's for sure; but the fact that she wants Infidel Pride banned only confirms that she's a lost cause and that she needs some help, because he is one of our most valuable players.

Infidel Pride -- count me in on your intervention!

remote_control, infidel_pride, Allahfanculo, champ, dennisw and others...E-mail me at nazgulbg@hotmail.com, please.

Ah, Witch-king of Angmar weighs in, taking the open jihad private to plot under cover of darkness what he dare not in the open.

Well, Witch-king, at least you got the right group, but you left out European Crusader and Caroline. Just here to help.

BTW, for those of you who don't know Tolkien much, the Witch-King of Angmar was the same as the Lord of the Nazgul in the Ring Trilogy.

He was ...

... the evil Sauron's most dreadful servant. He was once a Man who became corrupted by one of the Nine Rings of Power. He established the realm of Angmar and became known as the Witch-king, and though Angmar was defeated it was foretold that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man. During the War of the Ring, the Witch-king led the hunt for the Ring-bearer and he commanded the forces at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields where at last he met his doom.

Why would a poster name himself for someone evil?

Attention all Israelis here:

In 1999, Ariel Sharon, then the Foreign Minister of Israel, broke Israel's biggest tabu and condemned the US at the time of war for its aggression against Serbia on terrorists' side. There was worry in Israel that he was endangering the important relationship with the US, but he condemned the US again, and again. It was this important to him to speak out against the unspeakable evil the US and NATO did unto the Serb people.
Now, things in Kosovo are coming to a head again as NATO criminals seek to grant Kosovo "independence" creating yet another terrorist Thugistan. In the spirit of Sharon, flood to Kosovo and join Serb protests. A pesounding Zionist "No" to lowly neocons, sociopaths and Islamofascists!

Enragedsince1999

Sharon also quietly had the Mossad in Serbia during the same time period to protect Jews from the growing anti-Semitism there. For more on this, see the writings of the Serbian Defense League at

http://serbiandefenseleague.com/

This website purports to blame the Jews for the wars in the Balkans, the Serbian Genocide under the Nazis, and advertises the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as God's truth. They consider the Anti-Defamation League a tool of the devil.

For a current assessment of anti-Semitism in Serbia, please see the State Department 2006 report, an abridged section of which is printed below:

Anti-Semitism

Jewish leaders in Serbia reported continued incidents of anti-Semitism, including small-circulation anti-Semitic books and Internet postings. The release of new books or reprints of translations of anti-Semitic foreign literature often led to an increase in hate mail and other expressions of anti-Semitism. These same sources associated anti-Semitism with anti-Western and anti-globalization sentiments, as well as with nationalism.

On July 10, 2005, graffiti appeared in Smederevo's main square that read, "Beware of the Jewish influence on government and the private sector," "Inflation comes from the Jews," "Death to Zionism," and "Riot against Jews," and included swastikas and Nazi slogans. Smederevo police arrested two suspects and a court sentenced them to thirty days in prison for inciting national, religious, and racial hatred. On July 11, anti-Semitic graffiti appeared on a Novi Sad synagogue; the perpetrators remained unidentified.

On September 3, 2005, anti-Semitic graffiti appeared on a Novi Sad synagogue during the celebration of Days of Jewish Culture in Serbia. On September 5, anti-Semitic graffiti appeared again in Smederovo.

On November 18, 2005, a guest on the television show "Problem" alleged that Jews knew in advance about the September 11, 2001, attacks in the United States. The guest also made disparaging remarks about Jews in Serbia.

On February 12, 2006, graffiti appeared on a monument in Nis saying "Holocaust-the Jewish lie that governs the world," along with nationalistic slogans such as "Serbia for the Serbs."

You can find more at any number of US government sites and also at the websites of every major human rights NGO in the world.

What the Jews REALLY said. From a 2000 article on the fall of Milosevic to Kostunica.

Yugoslavia's Jews celebrate
Recovery will be hard

By RUTH E. GRUBER
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
October 10, 2000

ROME—The reaction of Yugoslav Jews to last week's dramatic downfall of Slobodan Milosevic could be read in the jubilant titles of e­mails they sent to friends.

"Victory," said one, after opposition leader Vojislav Kostunica was inaugurated Saturday as president. "We are free," said another.

But as Yugoslavia¹s 3,000 Jews looked forward to an end of Serbia's isolation and economic hardship, they stressed that the fate of their community was closely linked to the fate of Yugoslavia as a whole. They - and outside Jewish observers - warned that the depth of Yugoslavia's crisis meant that recovery would be a long, hard process.

"I am not sure everything is behind us," said Mira Poljakovic, of the Jewish community in Subotica, in northern Serbia.

Still, she added in an e-mail Sunday, "This Yom Kippur, after 10 long years, we can devote ourselves to prayer and fasting without wondering and fearing what dreadful things are awaiting us and how many more children will leave our community in search of democracy and work."

At a Jewish community function this weekend, she said, "all the faces were smiling and full of hope that all will turn to the better - and that means it will be better for the Jewish community, too."

Brane Popovic, a former president of the Belgrade Jewish community and a longtime opponent of the Milosevic regime, agreed.

"There will be a definite improvement of life for Jews, but in the same way and along the way as it will happen to the others," he said in an e-mail.

"We all hope that democracy (meaning 'no oppression') has come."

He noted that while Kostunica is known as a Serbian nationalist, he has broadened his language to be more inclusive when speaking about the people of Serbia.

"He is mentioning everybody now, talking about 'all the nationalities'; and we (Jews) are, I suppose, included in that definition," said Popovic.

He and others predicted that Kostunica would treat Jews equally as other citizens and noted that one of Kostunica's leading aides, Zarko Korac, is from a Jewish family.

Popovic took active part in the demonstrations last week that culminated in Kostunica's inauguration.

"I was in the streets," he said. "Of course I was, how could I miss the finale when for years I trod the streets with thousands of others, all the time hoping that this day will come.

"We are really free, for the first time in the life of most of us," said Popovic, who is 53.

"Trying to describe the feeling, 'disbelief' and 'emptiness' are probably the closest words I can use," he said. "It will still take some time for the feeling to sink completely in on us."

From the beginning of the Yugoslav crisis more than a decade ago, Yugoslav Jews were caught somewhere in the middle.

The close­knit Jewish community in the former Yugoslav Federation was divided when Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia­Herzegovina and Macedonia broke away and became independent during a series of bloody wars.

Fearing manipulation, the Jewish Federation in rump Yugoslavia took a deliberate position not to rock the boat - it refrained from official political positions.

Popovic, in fact, came under fire from others in the community when he attempted to take an open Jewish position against Milosevic almost four years ago, when student-led demonstrations swept across Belgrade.

In the wake of the ouster of Milosevic, several Jewish leaders have sharply criticized the official Jewish position. One Jewish leader described it as "falsely neutral."

In Subotica, long a center of the opposition, Mira Poljakovic said that Jews went from the synagogue to demonstrate in favor of Kostunica after Rosh Hashana services.

"Now the whole town knows that Subotica Jews are not cowards and that they, too, want to overthrow this regime and have democracy introduced in our country," Poljakovic told the London Jewish Chronicle before Milosevic's ouster.

"The Yugoslav wars first physically divided what was a small but close community, then they challenged their sense of identity and loyalty, with those in Croatia and those in Belgrade being pressed to support the actions - and ethnic feelings - of the respective nationalist forces," Rabbi Andrew Baker, European affairs director of the American Jewish Committee, told JTA.

Baker noted that democratic changes came swiftly in Croatia after the death last year of President Franjo Tudjman.

"We have already seen a remarkable change in Zagreb since the death of Tudjman and the new government there, and we can hope for the same now in Belgrade," he said. "It will certainly be easier for these former Yugoslav Jewish communities to come together again.

"Their own future has been difficult to predict, since the communities themselves were already small, but the economic boycotts, physical isolation and the departure of young people were making a viable Jewish community life even more difficult," Baker said.

The economic hardships, in fact, are sure to continue as winter sets in - and this will be a major challenge.

"Even with the change of government and the prospective lifting of sanctions, the situation will not change any time soon," said Yechiel Bar-Chaim, the director for Yugoslavia of the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee.

About 1,500 Yugoslav Jews live in Belgrade. The others live in seven much smaller scattered communities.

At the beginning of October, the JDC opened soup kitchens in all but one of the communities. They were targeted to serve a total of some 750 hot meals a day, five days a week.

Also, next week two experts from Israel will conduct in Belgrade a three­week seminar in entrepreneurship and small business development.

Jewish communities in neighboring countries - like the governments in those countries - are closely watching developments in Yugoslavia.

"I think that now the circle is closed," said Jakob Finci, a leader of the Jewish community in Sarajevo. "It was he who started everything in Belgrade, and now the war in the Balkans is finally over.

"In Bosnia, we are hoping that in Serbia not only faces, but also policy, will change," he added. "Even the Serbian opposition did not blame Milosevic for starting the wars but only for losing them. It will take some time to 'denazify' Serbia, and it is time to start now. Cooperation with the international community and the tribunal in The Hague is essential." TOP

Brane Popovic hopes Milosevic gets tried for crimes against humanity in The Hague - but wants to see him tried and punished in Yugoslavia itself, first.

"He is ours and he did immense harm to this people, too," he said.

Morgaan Sinclair wrote:
"And the fact that the Balkans were initially settled by Turkic tribes from Anatolia (5,000 BC), followed by Illyrian cultures, and then, much later by Serboi related linguistically to the Chechens ..."

The first Turkic people to settle in Anatolia came in the 11th Century AD (from central Asia)! There were certainly no Turkic people there 6000 years earlier!

Morgaan - this is a serious question. Why, when you give historical facts to back up your arguments, do you completely make them up?

The stuff about the Soviets expelling the Cherkess to Yugoslavia was silly enough, and has been accurately corrected by European Crusader. But a 6000 year whopper of an historical mistake takes the biscuit!

As for what you said about the Serbs' origins, all I know is that they are a Slavonic people who speak an ancient language of the southern Slavonic language group. The Chechen language is a member of the completely unrelated North Caucuses language group. If you have any information about a pre-Slavonic linguistic history of the Serbs, please could you post a link, as I'm genuinely interested?

Dennisw:

(forget my initial would-be 1st question of "what happened HERE? as I had to scroll up to see where we left off, lol)

Yes, overall, we're pretty much on the same page.
Only met Glann Beck once, sounds like good people.
I have seen some of the projects to mentioned on the east coast-I think they can easily be cost-effective in the end (I think they're well on the way).

Sad to say, you're quite right about the west coast- same yahoos I tagged "eco-gestapo" (enviro-kooks who are incapable of rationale`, and disliked by real environmentalists who are straight-shooters) don't want anything that bears "nuclera", "coal", "oil", anything except (up until recently) solar, wind, etc. (I wrote of where they even attack those now because of some ridiculous cause-of-the-day...same folks). They prevented any new powerplants from being built, the population soared, then when we went through rolling blackouts because not enough power to go around, they blamed their very same targets they did before (that's beyond ignorant-that's stupidity).

Back, to the coal bit, you're right (I think AMAX is the biggest producer of it out here) as the low sulfur coal is much cleaner than you'll find back east like KY, WV, PA etc bituminous...no idea why, it just is. No worries on the CO2 "concerns"- obviously they forgot their lesson in photosynthesis as it's also known as plant food.

As for the trains sizes, I think Union Pacific RR has some great pix on their site showing some going over the continental divide (6-8 pullers, 6-8 in the middle, and another 6-8 pushers at the end, they avg 20 max cars per loco going over-the-hump & 50'+/- length each, so you can gauge how long that is, and those locos are among the largest engine models currently running-much bigger than those used on both coasts, with each traction drive unit having 3 axles vs standard 2 X 2 trac drives on both). Yep...they're huge. If ya ever get a chance, bring your camera-it's awe-inspriring.
I'll pause here & let ya jump in...no, it's not my expertise...it's a hobby (& I trade commodity options when I'm not doing primary OpSec work for my former/present employer, lol)

Schemegel ... for goodness sake.

@http://www.hunmagyar.org/taj/delvidek/index.html
The first agricultural (Neolithic - 5000 BC) settlers of this region were the Sumerian-related Turanids from the Near-East (Anatolia, Caucasia, Mesopotamia). The ancient peoples of the Balkans and of the Danubian Basin therefore originated from these first settlers. The Illyrians of the Western Balkans were among these ancient peoples, and the Pannonians of the Western Carpathian Basin were also Illyrians.

And for the person who said the Hungarians loved the Serbs, here's how the Hungarians see it:

After the Ottomans were expelled at the end of the 17th c., the Austrian Habsburgs took over Hungary and proceeded to settle large numbers of Slavs and Vlachs ("Rumanians") from the Balkans, along with Swabians (South Germans), into Southern Hungary (Délvidék).

The main objectives of this Habsburg "ethnic re-settlement" policy were the colonial exploitation of Hungary, and the subjugation of the Hungarians by reducing them to a minority in their own land and using the newly settled foreign ethnic groups against the Hungarians, in an application of the divide and rule principle.

This was clearly illustrated during the 1848-49 Hungarian National Uprising and War of Independence. The South Slavs (Croats and Serbs) and the Vlachs ("Rumanians") turned against the Hungarians and sided with the Habsburgs. During the hostilities, Serb and Vlach armed groups committed numerous atrocities against the Hungarian population, slaughtering entire Hungarian villages and towns. The Hungarian national forces were able to defeat the Habsburgs and their allies, but were forced to lay down their arms when the Russians intervened on the side of the Habsburgs.

These events were at the root of the deep ethnic antagonisms which still permeate the region. Russian expansionism saw a great opportunity in this and exploited it by supporting Serbian and Rumanian territorial claims against Hungary. When the First World War broke out as a result of a Russian-Serbian assassination plot, plans had already been made for the territorial partition of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Thus, following the Serbian and Rumanian invasions after the end of WWI, most of Southern Hungary was annexed to the newly created "Yugoslav" state, and the Eastern Délvidék (Temes and Krassó-Szörény counties) was annexed by Rumania. During WWII, Hungary was able to temporarily liberate some parts of the Délvidék from Yugoslav occupation, but by the end of the war, the Serbs invaded again and slaughtered over 40 000 local Hungarian civilians, in one of the worst genocidal crimes against humanity.

During the Yugoslav wars of the 1990's, large numbers of Serbs from Croatia, Bosnia, and Kossova were re-settled in the Hungarian-inhabited regions of Délvidék ("Vojvodina"), and this occurred with the forced expulsion of Hungarians and the expropriation of their property by the Serbs. Today, the Hungarian Délvidék is still under the occupation of the ex-Yugoslav states and Rumania, and the anti-Hungarian policies of ethnic cleansing and forced assimilation are still in force, as anti-Hungarian incidents occur almost on a daily basis.

Thank you to remote_control, Infidel Price, Allahfancullah, Caroline, and European Crusader, et al.

I argued the Serb side of this with Albanians, Croats and Bosnians, in an effort to bring balance to the argument. I argued with Catholics and Jews who said Serbs were the anti-Christ.

It took you to convince me they were right.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

Morgaaaaaan.. noone cares what side you choose. At least now we know for sure. Being that you're from haaaaavaaaad you should really be able to "remix" our handles a little better than that. Or simply don't.

Arguing the Serb side with Albanias, Croats and Bosnians is like arguing the Jewish side with SOWdis, Nazis and "palestinians".

I really understand why some of the other are really sick of resding your drivel. And I HAVE TO answer because lies can't be left unchallenged or else thee will be some who will take these lies as truth.

For that reason perhaps it is time to give Morgaaaan the hook.

I mean Nazeem and Abby are so openly pro-moslem that they fool noone into thinking they are anything but.

The dangerous among us are those who talk a good game on the surface while really undermining the Freedom lovers' arguments with relativist obfuscation.

schmegel

You have to admit, we are making historical discoveries on this site, nobody has ever heard of in the real world. Turkic tribes in the Balkans 5000 BC (I wonder whether they were muslim?) and now she has linked the Serbs with the chechens, I wouldn't be surprised if in her next post she claims that the Serbs were the ones that committed the Beslan massacre or that the chechens are in fact Serbs planted in Chechnya by the Soviet Union.

Morgaan - so you admit your error? Those Neolithic people were not remotely Turks, as you had described them earlier (twice).

And the pre-Slavonic Serbian linguistic history linking them with the Chechens? Do you admit that was a mistake too?

And your false claim about the Soviets expelling the Cherkess to Yugoslavia? Admit? Apologise?

I admit this is all rather pedantic, but the mistakes do somewhat undermine the authority of other information you put forward. I would advise you to at least try to keep to the facts.

I personally see Abdullah, Naseem, Morgaan Sinclair , An American, and etc as an excellent reflection of the uphill battle we may all have to face one day.

Think of it as cutting your teeth on the tactics that will be employed against you in the future in possible face to face arguments. A most enlightening process I think.

Abdullah and Naseem are an excellent example of Islamic Fundamentalists, that know how to use Taqqiya and Quaranic verse as weapons.

Morgaan is like a politician, using trunkated timelines and selective information to prove her points, she also selectively challenges those she feels aren't capable of arguing against her, as you will notice she prefers to acknowledges those posts that have weaknesses she can exploit, while glossing over those she can't fight. She also likes to copy and paste a much used Time line that if she were to go even a few years prior to her earliest entries she would paint a more complete picture of the Balkans (Heavens Forbid) situation rather than the 1 sided portrait she Xeroxes ad nausem.

http://members.tripod.com/~sarant_2/ksm.html

The link above would allow a more complete picture of the Situation in the Balkans

As for An American I haven't observed him long enough to find what his argument style is like.

Thank you to remote_control, Infidel Price, Allahfancullah, Caroline, and European Crusader, et al.
I argued the Serb side of this with Albanians, Croats and Bosnians, in an effort to bring balance to the argument. I argued with Catholics and Jews who said Serbs were the anti-Christ.
It took you to convince me they were right.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

Even Remote hasn't said much, if anything about the Serbs. It's more his questioning of various stances of Morgan that has earned him her ire. Given that, it's a pathological lie on her part to claim that anything these 2 posted convinced her to change her opinion on the Serbs - a claim that is in itself unbelievable, and as Allahfanculo points out, irrelevant.

I personally see Abdullah, Naseem, Morgaan Sinclair , An American, and etc as an excellent reflection of the uphill battle we may all have to face one day.

That's the way I see it. I've lost friends already arguing about the islamiuc danger. And I've found a receptive ear every now and then. I have to keep at it. Most people simply never hear of all the islamic atrocities and their daily attempts to worm their way ever deeper into our societies.

They are a lot like a boa constrictor in the way they try to wrap all around you and then squeeze and squeeze and squeeze.

PS. i've asked many times inb this and other forums to hear from an islamist or one of their many apologists WHY do they want to live in the West where we - and so much of what we stand for and what we do - offends them.

I have yet to hear an answer. Just ONE answer.

Maybe Morgaaaaan can explain why they would wish to live among us? After all she seems to believe that moslems should be able to live among us and vote.

To which I say: Hogwash! We have no influence in their lands so why should they have any in ours? We KNOW what they will use their vote for should we give it to them. Where they do vote we have seen what their voting record is like.

See Turkey, Algeria, Pakiland, and the Rest of Islamic Paradiseland... The military keeps having to void the elections because the majority of these fools keep voting for sharia.

Same thing they'll be voting for once they get to vote over here.

THAT is simple logic, Morgaaaaaan. SIMPLE LOGIC.

Try to start with Simple straight-forward logic before you enter college Ok? Oh, i forgot, logical thinkers need not apply anymore. Sycophants and followers is what these colleges need more of.

See also under: "Scent of a Woman".

IP - you are correct. I have not stated my opinion about Serbia (other than in a general sense on one or 2 threads to lament the fact that we likely bombed the wrong side, and these were threads on which Morgaan wasn't even present) for the major reason that I do not know enough to comment. I have read with great interest what actual Serbs who comment here have to say and have checked out several of the links they have provided (e.g. Serbianna) and I am aware of a number of articles (one written by Daniel Pearl in the WSJ) that explored and failed to find the evidence for genocide which was claimed at the time. Being now aware of the Muslim capacity for propoganda against the Jews and everyone else, my tendency is to give the Serbs the benefit of the doubt.

But as you correctly point out, for Morgaan to cite me as evidence for solidifying her views on something so important, is absurd and demonstrates to me, at least, that she isn't very serious. It was simply a cheap shot to deflect responsibility for her own positions and also , it's a kind of threat. If you criticize me, I'll adopt the position you don't want me to take AND I'll make YOU feel responsible (and hopefully guilty) for it. So don't cross me! Pathetic but alas, consistent.

Caroline -- I believe you just described emotional blackmail/abuse.

During the Bosnia war in the 90's, I used to see things Morgaan's way, and for a short while, even supported a Muslim advocacy group against the Serbs on Usenet, since I used to think that the Bosnians were Muslim-lite, and not Muslims in the same way that Pakistanis, or Arabs, or Afghans are. Those were also the days when Cranberry was quite prominent, and in their album 'To the Faithful departed', they slammed the Bosnia wars in 2 songs, including one called 'Sarajevo'. These days, I look at those days with shame, and try and lose no opportunity to apologize to any Serbs I come across. That would include Witch King, Ehwa1, Prince Lazar, WallsofByzant, Svemerko and any other Serbs whose names escape me at the moment.

However, with Kosovo, when Clinton bombed them, I looked at it as a 'Wag the dog' war, and was not too thrilled about Serbia being bombed. I remember Rush Limbaugh calling for 60's style demonstrations against this war - incidentally, where was Not-In-Our-Name, and other such groups then? I was also outraged that when Clinton sidestepped the UN to avoid the Russian veto and went with NATO, that the Russians didn't militarily intervene on behalf of the Serbs.

Since then, I've learned about the Bosnian atrocities against the Serbs, as well as Alia Izetbegovic's agenda on the Islamification of Bosnia. What turned my opinion was reading the chapter on the Balkans in Robert's edited book 'The myth of Islamic tolerance'. If Morgaan is really such an anti-Jihadist, that book alone should change her views on what the Serbs had to suffer under the Muslims. Given that, I would have done well to have supported the Serbs on Bosnia just as I did on Kosovo.

Lesson learned - never support the Mohammedans against anybody!

To everyone except Ms. Sinclair: I warned y'all when this back and forth with Morgaan started. It was like watching a train wreck. 170 some comments and where did it get us? To the land of acrimony and disharmony. We attach each other instead of the Islamists.

(Everyone, ignore this part) Morgaan, I'll take the high road. I apologize to you from everyone on this site. You are right. You are always right. Those Serbs are BAD people. Harvard is an EXCELLENT school. There are NON-BIASED and WONDERFUL professors and I am sure those are the only kind you choose to take classes from. General grovel. More groveling.

Is that good enough? Will you please stop?

former:

Your efforts are admirable...but...a word of advice:

never feed the mouse...then he'll want the cookie, then the glass of milk, then the 3 course meal, etc.
A+ for effort though.

U.N. court clears Serbia of genocide

By Alexandra Hudson
Feb 26, 2007

THE HAGUE (Reuters) - The highest U.N. court cleared Serbia on Monday of direct responsibility for genocide in Bosnia during the 1992-95 war, but said Belgrade had violated its obligation to prevent and punish the mass killing.

Bosnia had asked the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to rule on whether Serbia committed genocide through the killing, rape and ethnic cleansing that ravaged Bosnia during the war, in one of the court's biggest cases in its 60-year history.

It was the first time a state had been tried for genocide, outlawed in a U.N. convention in 1948 after the Nazi Holocaust.

ICJ President Judge Rosalyn Higgins said the court concluded the massacre of Muslim men by Bosnian Serb forces at Srebrenica did constitute genocide, but that the Serbian state could not be held responsible for the mass killing, or complicity in the act.

A judgment in Bosnia's favor could have allowed it to seek billions of dollars of compensation from Serbia.

"The court finds by 13 votes to 2 that Serbia has not committed genocide," she said after an almost three-hour ruling.

But the court also ruled that Serbia had failed to prevent genocide and punish the perpetrators. Bosnian Serb wartime leader Radovan Karadzic and military commander Ratko Mladic, both accused of genocide for Srebrenica, are still at large.

Some 8,000 Muslims from Srebrenica and surrounding villages in eastern Bosnia were killed in July 1995. The bodies of about half of them have been found in more than 80 mass graves nearby.

Judge Higgins said Serbia had flouted its obligations under the genocide convention by failing to arrest Mladic even though he was hiding in the country and said it must take immediate steps to transfer him for trial at the U.N. war crimes tribunal.

A spokeswoman for the tribunal's chief prosecutor said she hoped the ICJ ruling would help maintain European Union pressure on Serbia to deliver Mladic for trial in Serbian President Boris Tadic told a news conference on Monday parliament should condemn the Srebrenica massacre.

"The very difficult part of the verdict is that Serbia did not do all it could to prevent genocide," he said.

The Serb legal team said the court had absolved Serbia of "the most difficult accusation in its history," but added: "We hope that this judgment will be an opportunity for the direct reconciliation of people in the former Yugoslavia."

MUSLIM DISMAY

Bosnian Muslims and Croats expressed disappointment at the ruling over the war in which at least 100,000 people died, three quarters of them Muslims and Croats. The court ruled that paying reparations to Bosnia would not be appropriate.

"This makes me cry. This is no verdict, no solution. This is a disaster for our people," said 60-year-old Fatija Suljic who lost her husband and three sons in the Srebrenica massacre.

"I am stunned. This is terrible -- I saw with my own eyes who started this war and who kept up the aggression. It was the Serbs," said Hedija Krdzic, 34, who lost her husband, father and grandfather at Srebrenica and was demonstrating at the court.

The intent to commit genocide proved decisive in the ICJ's ruling, with the court conceding that although other mass killings of Bosnian Muslims could well be war crimes or crimes against humanity, a specific intent by the Bosnians Serbs to destroy them could not be shown apart from in Srebrenica.

Although the court found Serbia "was making its considerable military and financial support available" to the Bosnian Serbs it had not known for certain they had genocidal intent, although it must have been aware of the risk of such an event.

The U.N. war crimes tribunal has already found individuals guilty of genocide at Srebrenica. Bosnia used evidence from trials there for its case against Serbia.

Bosnia's Muslims and Croats followed Slovenia and Croatia in breaking away from Yugoslavia in April 1992, against the wishes of Bosnian Serbs, who were left as a one-third minority in what had previously been a Yugoslav republic ruled from Belgrade.

Backed by the Yugoslav army, the Serbs captured two-thirds of Bosnia and besieged Sarajevo. Tens of thousands of non-Serbs were killed and hundreds of thousands forced from their homes.

(Additional reporting by Sarajevo, Belgrade and Brussels bureaux)

jcom972

This thread is almost dead. You know more about the coal trains than I do. Coal is a low tech fuel that needs a modern hi tech update. Burn it cleanly to make electric and use the most advanced liquefaction methods to convert it to oil byproducts excluding gasoline which is too light. Takes too much effort to make from coal. Our low sulfur Western coal can make electricity and make diesel fuel for automobiles, jet fuel and heating oil. What more could one want to become more energy independent?

Amen to that...
If we eliminate 45% of the shortfall (which accounts for pretty much all oil imports), and we go mostly diesel like much of europe, there's an "FOAD" in opec's future.
lol

We'll take up on this later if the circumstances allow. Nice job on this, dennisw.

Some of Moron Spamclair's hero's handiwork.

http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/current_dev/ramush/glodjane2-m.jpg

Victims of the "Black Eagles" - probably Catholic Kosovo Albanians' - in Radonjic Lake canal

No comment Moron Spamclair on the many tortured Catholic Kosovo Albanians. Why the reticence, surely you're incensed by such behaviour?

All we get though is silence.

So let's do a little more about the chucklesome exploits of the Black Eagles.

Illira Frrokaj is - or was - a Kosovo Albanian Catholic. She was last seen at a KLA checkpoint. He body was later found - disfigured from being burnt in the nearby canal - Her husband, Tush Frrokaj's , body - he was kidnapped with her - has yet to be found

Many of the Serb victims of the charming Black Eagles were elderly and often refuesed to comply with KLA death threats and stayed in their homes . For example Milka - born in 1933 - and Milovan Vlahovic - born in 1935 from Gornji Ratis , disappeared in the Summer of 98 . Various parts of Milka's body have been found. You read that right, "various parts of his body"

Or how about the vanishing act of some more loyalist Kosovo Albanians?

Isuf Hoxha and Hajrullah Gashi - both loyalist Kosovo Albanians - were considered "collaborators" by the KLA because their spouses were Serbian.

You read it right, if you married a Serb , you were dog meat.

They were last seen travelling by bus from Djakovica to Pristina. The bus was stopped and Haradinaj and his gigglesome brood of cheeky chappies took them off the bus. Their bodies were later dumped in the canal.

Come on Moron. Let's see you vent your spleen at such atrocities against ethnic Albanians.

Yet all we get from you stout defenders of the trampled upon ethnic Albanians is a studied silence when it's your heroically brave and bravely heroic KLA who are cutting various pieces of anatomy off their victims - Ivan Zaric , a Serb, had his ears cut off - or being tortured by being wrapped in barbed wire - or by having the shit beaten out with baseball bats- rape of course was de rigeur , etc and then the final inevitable , execution , before being dumped in the canal

I'd imagine our friend morgaaaaaan has found more jihad-fiendly pasturesd to commune with by now..

Goodbye, Morgaaaaan.. enjoy the wailing of the muezzin in Boston when they finish building that "supermosk" over there.

Stupid dhimmis.

The RESISTANCE will not be televised.

Mosks in the WEST will NOT stand!

Case Study:
The Srebrenica
Massacre, July 1995

[See also the case study of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Gendercide Watch photo gallery of the events surrounding the massacre.]

Mortuary for Srebrenica victims at Tuzla.Summary

In the Bosnian silver-mining town of Srebrenica in July 1995, one of the most notorious modern acts of gendercide took place. While the international community and U.N. peacekeepers looked on, Serb forces separated civilian men from women and killed thousands of men en masse, or hunted them down in the forests.

The background

Map of Bosnia and Srebrenica.

The events at Srebrenica mark the climax of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the most vicious and genocidal battlefront in the Balkans conflict. The conflict in Bosnia-Herzegovina began in 1992 and featured largescale genocidal and gendercidal atrocities from the first. These are dealt with in a separate Bosnia case study. One of the largest massacres of the early part of the war took place at a gymnasium in the village of Bratunac in April 1992, when an estimated 350 Bosnian Muslim men were tortured to death and massacred by Serb paramilitaries and special police. Bratunac lay just outside Srebrenica, and would again serve as a killing ground when the city fell to Bosnian Serb forces in July 1995.

Srebrenica headlines (Photo, 9k)Although the Serbs seized Bratunac, they were not able to take Srebrenica itself. The city was defended by Naser Oric, a Rambo-like figure whose troops (and associated squads of civilian torbari, or "bag people") inflicted a number of smaller atrocities on Serb villages around the Srebrenica pocket. Eventually, in April 1993, Serb forces closed in for a final crushing of the town and Oric's forces. Serb General Ratko Mladic made it plain that he held a special grudge against the menfolk of Srebrenica, armed or unarmed. In scenes that gripped the attention of the world, hundreds of women and children were evacuated from Srebrenica before the Serb noose tightened and shut off all refugee flow. The plight of the city prompted the international community to declare Srebrenica one of five "safe areas" in Bosnia (the others were Zepa, Gorazde, Tuzla, Sarajevo, and Bihac in northwestern Bosnia). The meaning of the ambiguous term "safe area" was never properly defined, and sufficient forces were never committed to ensuring the safety of the Bosnian inhabitants. As events at Srebrenica two years later so grimly demonstrated, "the safe areas were among the most profoundly unsafe places in the world" (Silber and Little, The Death of Yugoslavia, p. 274.)

The gendercide

Srebrenica headlines.In June 1995, Bosnian Serb forces, pushing for a resolution to the ethnic "anomaly" of the Muslim enclaves, closed their noose around Srebrenica and the other "safe areas." In Srebrenica, mass panic took hold of the civilian population. Women and children gathered at the U.N. base of Potocari, together with about 1,700 men,while most of the "battle-age" males -- mostly unarmed non-combatants -- took to the hills in a desperate attempt to flee to Muslim-held territory to the west. At Potocari, Dutch troops meekly allowed the Serbs access to the camps and the refugees they held. Then, the following day -- July 11 -- some 1700 men, disproportionately the elderly and infirm, were separated from women and children. The peacekeepers "stood inches away from the Serb soldiers who were separating the Muslim men, one by one, from their families" (Sudetic, Blood and Vengeance, p. 306). At Serb command, the Dutch drew up a registry of 242 Bosnian men remaining in the camp, again mostly elderly and infirm. Then they handed the men over to the Serbs. Not one of the 242 men is known to have survived. The children and women were bused, with isolated exceptions, to safety in Tuzla. Men, almost without exception, were carted away to their deaths. (Note: Other sources cite 239 as the total number of men named on the list; for an account of how the 242 total was eventually arrived at, see the letter from Hasan Nuhanovic posted to the Women of Srebrenica website. The letter also gives a harrowingly detailed account of the separation of men and boys from the remainder of the population at the U.N. base, and the blatant Dutch complicity in the process. Thanks to Kate Myers for bringing this source to our attention.)

Satellite photo of Nova Kasaba mass graves.
Satellite photo of Nova Kasaba mass graves.

Many of the men were killed in the school gymnasium in Bratunac that had already served as the site of a gendercidal massacre in the Bosnian war. Many hundreds more were massacred at a football field near Nova Kasaba, the worst killing ground of the entire five-day slaughter. Human Rights Watch recorded the testimony of one eyewitness to the gendercidal massacres at Nova Kasaba. The Serbs, he said,

picked out Muslims whom they either knew about or knew, interrogated them and made them dig pits. ...During our first day, the Cetniks [Serbs] killed approximately 500 people [men]. They would just line them up and shoot them into the pits. The approximately one hundred guys whom they interrogated and who had dug the mass graves then had to fill them in. At the end of the day, they were ordered to dig a pit for themselves and line up in front of it. ... [T]hey were shot into the mass grave. ... At dawn, ... [a] bulldozer arrived and dug up a pit ..., and buried about 400 men alive. The men were encircled by Cetniks: whoever tried to escape was shot." (Quoted in Mark Danner, "The Killing Fields of Bosnia", New York Review of Books, September 24 1998.)

A great many of the men who had sought to flee through the hills to Tuzla were doomed as well. The Bosnian Serb commander, Gen. Radivoj Krstic, in a radio transmission intercepted by western eavesdroppers, told his forces: "You must kill everyone. We don't need anyone alive." (Mark Danner, "Bosnia: The Great Betrayal", New York Review of Books, March 26 1998.) Serb forces took special pleasure in isolating trees where men had sought to hide, and riddling them with shrapnel from anti-aircraft guns.

Map of the course of the Srebrenica massacre.

Trapped in the hills under Serb bombardment, sleepless and thirst-maddened, men succumbed to hallucinations, paranoia, and despair. "The psyches of the men ruptured. Muslims mistook other Muslims for infiltrators. They threw hand grenades and fired their automatics at one another. ... Men shot themselves hoping the Serbs would show the wounded mercy" (Sudetic, Blood and Vengeance, p. 301). Many committed suicide. Thousands finally surrendered to Serb troops along the "Ring of Iron," who lured them with the sight of captured UN vehicles and promises of safe passage. All of those captured were taken to nearby fields and warehouses, executed, and buried in mass graves.

Mass grave uncovered at SrebrenicaSummarizing the catastrophe in 1997, David Rohde -- who as a journalist with the Christian Science Monitor won a Pulitzer Prize for uncovering the first mass graves around Srebrenica -- offered a blistering critique of the moral lapse on the part of the "safe area's" alleged guardians: "The international community partially disarmed thousands of men, promised them they would be safeguarded and then delivered them to their sworn enemies. Srebrenica was not simply a case of the international community standing by as a far-off atrocity was committed. The actions of the international community encouraged, aided, and emboldened the executioners. ... The fall of Srebrenica did not have to happen. There is no need for thousands of skeletons to be strewn across eastern Bosnia. There is no need for thousands of Muslim children to be raised on stories of their fathers, grandfathers, uncles and brothers slaughtered by Serbs." (Rohde, Endgame, pp. 351, 353.)

How many died?

The Red Cross lists 7,079 dead and missing at Srebrenica. Other estimates range as high as 8,000 or 10,000. David Rohde notes that the massacre "accounts for an astonishing percentage of the number of missing" from the brutal Balkans conflict as a whole. "Of the 18,406 Muslims, Serbs and Croats reported still missing ... as of January 1997, 7,079 are people [men] who disappeared after the fall of Srebrenica. In other words, approximately 38 percent of the war's missing are from Srebrenica." By any standard, it was one of the worst and most concentrated acts of gendercide in the post-World War II era -- and the worst massacre of any kind in Europe for fifty years.

Who is responsible?

Chuck Sudetic writes of the Srebrenica massacre that "the men who carried out the executions were reportedly under orders handed down by General [Ratko] Mladic and Radislav Krstic, a colonel in the Bosnian army who was promoted to general and named commander of the army's Drina corps by Mladic within a few days of the killings. Among the units that took part in the killings was the Tenth Commando squad, which answered directly to Mladic's headquarters ... Men from Srebrenica, Bratunac, Kravica, Milii, Visegrad, Bajina Basta, Loznica, Zvornik, and other towns also participated." (Sudetic, Blood and Vengeance, pp. 317-18.)

Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic.In 1996, the International Criminal Tribunal indicted Mladic and Krstic for crimes of humanity committed at Srebrenica. Joining them on the list of indicted war-criminals was Radovan Karadzic, leader of the self-styled "Republika Srpska" or Serb-controlled territories in Bosnia. Karadzic was intimately involved in planning the "endgame" in the Bosnian war, for which Srebrenica was to serve as a centerpiece. In July 1999, the Tribunal found that these mass murderers had been operating under "a direct chain of military command" from Belgrade and the Serbian President, Slobodan Milosevic. For the first time, the Tribunal defined the Bosnian war as "an international conflict," recognizing both Bosnian independence and Serbian aggression . As yet, however, Milosevic remains unindicted for the atrocities he directed in Bosnia.

The United Nations must shoulder a large share of responsibility for allowing the massacre to take place under the noses of its troops. In November 1999, the UN released a highly self-critical report on its performance, stating that "Through error, misjudgment and the inability to recognize the scope of evil confronting us, we failed to do our part to save the people of Srebrenica from the Serb campaign of mass murder." (See Barbara Crossette, "U.N. Details Its Failure to Stop '95 Bosnian Massacre", The New York Times, November 16 1999.)

The blame surely extends to the member states of the United Nations -- perhaps especially to its most powerful member, the United States. As The Economist magazine has noted,

The received version [of events] ... is that Bill Clinton and Al Gore vowed to "bomb the Serbs" and end the war when they were shocked to learn that thousands of Muslims had been massacred at Srebrenica. But, the reader cannot help asking, was news of this impending massacre -- the worst in Europe since 1945 -- really not available to America's two most powerful figures beforehand?

At earlier stages in Bosnia's war, when Muslim strongholds like Gorazde or Bihac had been on the verge of falling, America had worked (without the promise of ground troops) to galvanise its allies -- insisting that battle-plans be drawn up, and threats of bombing be issued, so as to warn off the Serbs. Yet in the final days and hours of the advance on Srebrenica, which American intelligence could monitor closely, Washington fell strangely silent. Srebrenica duly fell, with consequences which were unspeakable in human terms, but not inconvenient diplomatically.

Perhaps it is conspiratorial to assume that America's tardy reaction to Srebrenica reflected calculation rather than negligence. But the question needs asking ... ("Inside Out," The Economist, September 8, 2001).

The aftermath

The Women of Srebrenica. Extensive forensic investigations of the Srebrenica massacre sites has so far turned up some 3,000 bodies. Only a few have been successfully identified. They are held at a combined memorial and mortuary in Tuzla (see photo at the top of this page). The forensics teams who worked on the Srebrenica and Vukovar sites gathered vital experience in their exhumation of the graves, and were able to employ their skills anew in the Kosovo gendercide four years later. (See Stover and Peress, The Graves: Srebrenica and Vukovar.)

The memory of Srebrenica's men was kept alive by their womenfolk. They stormed Red Cross offices in Tuzla in early 1996 to protest the stalled investigations into the fate of their missing men, and did so again on the fourth anniversary of the massacre in 1999. Organized as "The Women of Srebrenica," they have recently launched their own website (www.srebrenica.org). The group's list of primary demands reads as follows:

* The full facts of Srebrenica should be revealed and publicised.
* All graves should be exhumed and bodies identified without delay.
* Any survivors of Srebrenica held prisoner in Republika Srpska [Bosnian Serb territories] or the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia should be released immediately.
* The people of Srebrenica should be enabled to return to their homes.
* There should be a full & open international investigation into the failure of the UN to protect the Safe Area of Srebrenica.
* All indicted and suspected war criminals, including Radovan Karadzic, Ratko Mladic and Slobodan Milosevic, and all those complicit with genocide, should be arrested and brought to trial.

quote1.jpgIn Spring 2000, General Radislav Krstic, "the highest-ranking Bosnian Serb commander before the UN War Crimes tribunal in The Hague," stood trial for the genocidal atrocities at Srebrenica. (See "Peacekeeper Tells of Serb Massacre", The Sydney Morning Herald, April 8, 2000.) In August 2001, Krstic was convicted and sentenced to 46 years in prison.

In March 2003, the first 600 identified victims of the Srebrenica massacre were returned to the town and buried in a powerful ceremony (see "Srebrenica Finally Buries Its Dead", BBC Online, March 31, 2003.)

BOSNIA 1995

- before the genocide
- the genocide
- after the genocide
- witness
- issues

GENOCIDES
NAMIBIA
ARMENIA
UKRAINE
the HOLOCAUST
CAMBODIA
GUATEMALA
RWANDA
BOSNIA
the genocide

Srebrenica is situated in what had become, and still is, Republika Srpska. The town, declared a UN safe area in 1992, was now a Bosniak enclave in the care of the French and Dutch governments. In July 1995 Serb troops and paramilitaries led by Ratko Mladic descended on Srebrenica and began shelling it. They had already dealt with Muslim soldiers in the countryside villages. Now they were besieging Srebrenica's thousands of Muslim civilians. Food supplies and water began to dwindle, buildings were damaged, people were injured. Soon Serb troops were able to take up positions close the town's outskirts. In Bosnia's capital, Sarajevo, a radio message from an amateur operator in Srebrenica was heard: 'Please do something. Whatever you can. In the name of God, do something.'

The contingent of Dutch soldiers who made up the UN military presence safeguarding the town (from their HQ in a suburban factory complex) could do little. They were poorly equipped and had no back-up. In any case, over two dozen of them had been taken prisoner by the Serbs and no-one wanted to take action that might endanger the hostages' lives.

However, the Dutch commander did repeatedly ask the French (their military colleagues in this operation) to provide immediate deterrent air strikes; but his requests were repeatedly stalled. (The story goes that one request was rejected because it was on the wrong fax form.) Still hoping for French assistance, the Dutch commander warned Serb officials that there would be air strikes at 6.00 a.m. on the morning of July 11 unless Serbian troops moved away from the town's borders.

But there were no air strikes that dawn (though two jets flew over later). Instead, the Serbs' bombardment intensified. Thousands of Muslims made for the Dutch compound - some killed by shells as they fled. Throughout the day a stream of refugees was slowly admitted inside: up to 6,000 by nightfall. 20,000 more were left waiting outside. There was no food, little water, and a lot of fear.

The following morning representatives of the Dutch battalion and of the Muslims heard that Mladic had made a promise: everyone would be allowed to cross out of Serb territory, but the men would have to be screened first, so that war criminals could be detected, before rejoining their families. Meanwhile, Serb troops quietly surrounded the Dutch HQ.

Soon afterwards Mladic himself appeared, caught on film in genial mode and reassuring a group of women that all would be well. ('Thank you,' they cried.) After him came large numbers of trucks and buses. Serb troops at once began separating off the men from women and children among the civilians outside the UN compound. Women and children were forced on to the trucks and buses. As they were deported, they could hear gunfire echoing round the hills; and they saw corpses lying by the road.

The following day the transports returned to fetch more women and children. There were now no men to be seen among the people in the street, and soon no women and children either. By noon the Serbs were ready to deal with the remaining thousands inside the camp. The Dutch gave the order: 'Leave the camp in groups of 5'. The Serbs stood at the entrance, once again isolating the men and boys.

The deportation of Srebrenica's population took 4 days, and the UN assisted in a way it didn't foresee and couldn't prevent: the Serbs removed the Dutch soldiers' blue peacekeeping helmets and later wore them themselves to trick escapees into handing themselves over.

Up to 7,500 men, and boys over 13 years old, were killed. They were trucked or marched to their places of death. Up to 3,000, many in the act of trying to escape, were shot or decapitated in the fields. (Mladic had sent out his written order to 'block, crush and destroy the straggling parts of the Muslim group'; it was carried out.) 1,500 were locked in a warehouse and sprayed with machine gun fire and grenades. Others died in their thousands on farms, football fields, school playgrounds. The whole action was carried out with military efficiency. (It is said that the transport drivers were each forced to kill one man, to deter them from testifying against the Serb troops later.)

Thousands of the bodies were buried in mass graves. US aerial reconnaissance film shows the signs of a mass grave being covered by earth-moving equipment. Later many bodies were dug up and moved to more secret burial places.

This book is now 10 years old, but bears reading by anybody who wants to understand what went wrong and how it was fueled.

The Bridge Betrayed: Religion and Genocide in Bosnia (Comparative Studies in Religion and Society , No 11) (Paperback)

Review From Library Journal

A Serbian American professor of religion, Sells (Mystical Languages of Unsaying, Univ. of Chicago, 1994) explores all angles surrounding the recent systematic destruction of the Bosnian Muslims. He lays down a solid background of the origins of the war and explains the Serbian attitude that religion equals nationality, which shows why the Serbs believe the Muslims are traitorous to their country. Sells also describes Croatia's role in the conflict. Along with some fascinating reports and details on the genocide, he spends the final two chapters blasting the UN, NATO, and the West for not becoming more involved in stopping the crimes against the Bosnians. His work is recommended for all academic and large public libraries for its ability to explain this confusing war clearly.?Jill Jaracz, Professionals Lib. Service, Chicago

Now, some of the members of the Mangy Slavering Attack Dog Group of Serbia will pounce on this to say I am pro-jihad. I anticipate this lie, as all dissent that happens within earshot of bigots is always met with personal attack.

When you take the attitude that you can declare others your enemies on the basis of religion, RATHER THAN ACTION AND IDEOLOGY AGAINST YOU, you commit the same kinds of crimes that radical Islamists commit. Your skin may look different, your language may be different, but genocide on a religious basis is ... genocide (or attempted thereof) on a religious basis.

We have every right to fight Al Qaeda, sanction countries that support terrorism, make immigration laws that protect us, demand that government stop playing footsy with radicals and stop going to war and calling it a war on terror.

We do not have the right to genocide other people on the basis of race, ethnicity, sexuality, religion, or any other supremacist attitude. Particularly when they are NOT practicing jihad.

And Schmegel, the ancestors of the Albanians were in the Balkans for almost 5,000 years before Serb tribes arrive there. Tacitus in 50 BC was the first EVER to mention them and the origin of the Serbs is in the same area (with linguistic support) as the Chechens.

All the blithering above about Serbia being "exonerated" of genocide is extremely premature. This will come up again, as everybody who knows anything about this knows about the 2003 "deal" with Serbia to seal minutes of military proceedings so that the IPC would be bereft of the facts in the case. They got away it -- for the moment. It will come again. And then we'll see.

Even with that, the IPC didn't say that there was no genocide. It also didn't say that Serbia bore no responsibility. It said that in not monitoring the situation, Serb BROKE LAWS REGARDING GENOCIDE, though it found it not DIRECTLY responsible.

The inclusion of the military minutes will, according to Del Ponte, absolutely establish direct responsibility for the genocide with Slobodan Milosevic's regime.

Justice is not justice when the most pertinent evidence in the case is sealed under a DEAL. That's just more crime.

ICJ rejects allegations in a secret files’ deal with Belgrade

Carla Del Ponte (photo: intellectum.org)
Carla Del Ponte

International Court of Justice Chief prosecutor’s office rejects allegations that there was a deal with Belgrade to conceal documents from the ICJ Bosnia genocide case, IWPR reported.

****
The lawyer who prosecuted Slobodan Milosevic has accused his former employers of striking a deal allowing Belgrade to conceal its role in wars in Croatia and Bosnia from the public and the International Court of Justice (ICJ). Geoffrey Nice alleged last week that the Hague tribunal’s chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte agreed with Serbia in 2003 that key documents from the Yugoslav government archives could remain secret. ****

His accusations have caused an uproar in the Balkans with many speculating the documents – minutes from wartime meetings of political and military leaders in Yugoslavia – could have swayed the judges in Bosnia’s recent ICJ genocide case. The court cleared Serbia of genocide charges in February. They have led to calls from Croatia – which is also suing Serbia for genocide at the ICJ – that the documents be made public before its long-running case finally comes before the court.
But would they really have swayed the ICJ judges and should Croatia pin its hopes on them ever being revealed? Some observers say no to both questions and suggest the tribunal did nothing wrong when it agreed with Belgrade that the documents from the then Yugoslavia’s highest political and military body, the Supreme Defence Council, SDC, remain secret. “Carla Del Ponte is a very determined prosecutor with no interest in protecting the Serbs,” said William Schabas, director of the Irish Centre for Human Rights at the National University of Ireland. “She must have seen this as the most productive way to get relevant and useful information in difficult circumstances.”

Nonetheless, speculation that the SDC records would have been valuable for Bosnia’s ICJ case and would have helped prove the link between Belgrade and the Bosnian Serb forces is widespread and has been for years. It gained intensity after February’s ruling clearing Serbia of genocide, saving it from substantial damage payments.
Nice – who led the Milosevic prosecution from 2002 until the former president’s death in 2006 – weighed in on April 12 in a letter published in Croatia’s Jutarnji List paper and again in a letter to the International Herald Tribune on April 16. He said that Carla Del Ponte wrote to Yugoslav foreign minister Goran Svilanovic in May 2003 approving protective measures for part of the SDC documents. Nice said he disagreed with Del Ponte and warned her against making concessions to Serbia. “There was no legal basis for the withholding of the records from the public,” Nice wrote to the International Herald Tribune. “There was no conceivable reason for making a deal with Yugoslavia. It served only one purpose: to keep Belgrade’s responsibility from public scrutiny and, significantly, from the International Court of Justice.”

Del Ponte’s office hit back, saying this week that the Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) “rejects in the strongest terms” the allegations it had concealed documents from the ICJ or made any kind of deal with Belgrade. “Only judges and not the prosecutor can decide on the protective measures to keep material from the public,” reads an OTP statement. Spokesperson Olga Kavran then told a Hague press briefing on April 18 that although correspondence between government officials and the OTP is a regular event “the suggestion that there was a deal to conceal evidence is completely false”.
Belgrade applied for confidentiality for the SDC files under a tribunal regulation allowing governments to request protective measures for documents that could endanger national security interests.
Goran Sluiter, from the University of Amsterdam’s criminal law department, believes the OTP did things by the book. “Tribunal rules allow [Del Ponte] to offer confidentiality assurances,” he said.
During an IWPR investigation two years ago, sources said that the Serbs requested the documents from the military archives be kept secret not for reasons of national security but simply to ensure they would not be cited as evidence at the ICJ. The Bosnians used all the records that were made public during their case, but dozens more remained sealed, leading to criticism that the judges should have demanded them from Serbia. Bosnia’s legal team pressed the court to issue an order for their disclosure, but that request was not granted.
Sluiter points out, however, that the ICJ is a civil rather than a criminal court and lacks subpoena powers. And there are other problems. Lennert Breuker, a researcher in state criminal responsibility at Leiden University in The Netherlands, says that unlike the war crimes tribunal in The Hague, where judges can adjudicate regardless of the consent of the participants and have investigatory powers, the ICJ has to rely on the cooperation of all parties involved and could not have forced Serbia to turn over the documents. "[ICJ] judges play a mostly passive role," said Breuker. "However, you might question whether the role of a passive judge is appropriate given that you are dealing with issues of extreme gravity [like genocide] where truth finding becomes more prominent than in more common interstate disputes. "The court shows a slight inconsistent approach by not asking for the documents, when it was certainly competent to do so under its statute. One might be sceptical though about Serbia's willingness to have conformed to such a request."
Most judges agreed with the decision not to request the documents, though a dissenting opinion from the court’s vice president Awn Shawkat al-Khasawneh speculated they would have shed further light on Belgrade’s involvement in the Bosnian conflict. Schabas said he too would like to know what is contained in their pages, but believes they weren’t that important to Bosnia’s ICJ case. “It’s a storm in a teacup,” he said. “The case hinged on whether genocide was committed by the Bosnian Serbs. If the Bosnian Serbs didn’t commit genocide then it doesn’t matter who is controlling them.”
The ICJ did find that the 1995 Srebrenica massacre was an act of genocide committed by the Bosnian Serb forces, but said there was no evidence they were under Belgrade’s control. Bosnian Serb war crimes fugitive Ratko Mladic commanded the troops in Srebrenica, but again Schabas is doubtful the SDC papers would have linked him to Belgrade. “I’d be surprised if the redacted documents showed Belgrade knew Mladic was going to carry out genocide. I don’t believe that. “The redacted documents contain information everyone already knows – that the Serbs in Belgrade manipulated the Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia. I don’t see that as being earth shattering.”
International law lecturer Andre de Hoogh, from the University of Groningen in The Netherlands, agrees that it is “questionable” whether the documents would have changed the outcome of the ICJ case, saying genocide is extremely hard to prove. “Intent to destroy requires a high burden of proof,” said De Hoogh.
Nonetheless, he expects that Croatia will push hard to have the full SDC archive made available when its own genocide case – filed in 1999 – eventually comes before the ICJ. “They’ll have to meet the same burden of proof as the Bosnians so they will be asking the court to ask Serbia for the documents,” he said. “However, that places the court in a fix. If they do that for the Croatians, then questions will arise about why they didn’t do so in the Bosnian case.”

Serbia’s late Prime Minister’s family demands 40-year prison sentence for his assassins
Lawyers representing the family of Serbia’s late Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic had demanded Tuesday, April 24, maximum 40-year prison sentences for his suspected killers, the Belgrade’s B92 TV reported, according to BIRN website.
In their closing arguments at the trial of two former police commanders and 11 other suspects that include a Serbia’s secret service operative and members of an underworld clan, the lawyers said it had been proven beyond reasonable doubt that the accused had plotted and carried out the Djindjic’s 2003 assassination in downtown Belgrade.
The indictment against Djindjic's alleged assassins and their accomplices says they carried out the attack to halt pro-Western reforms spearheaded by Djindjic and to bring nationalist bloc to power.
In his closing arguments, Srdja Popovic, a attorney, said that despite “the proven guilt" of the alleged conspirators and assassins, the court proceedings had failed to pinpoint the political background of Djindjic’s slaying. "They did what they were told to do,” he said according to a TV broadcast.

Rade Bulatovic (photo: b92.net)
Rade Bulatovic
Popovic also repeated his demand that Serbia’s caretaker Prime Minister and the then Yugoslav president Vojislav Kostunica and several of his aides including Rade Bulatovic, the head of the Security Agency and Gen. Aco Tomic, the former head of Military Intelligence Service be questioned in court in connection with Djindjic's death.
Kostunica and Djindjic clashed fiercely over the course of pro-Western reforms that followed the ouster of former Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic in 2000 and over his extradition to the U.N. tribunal in The Hague, Netherlands. "Djindjic was murdered amid a fierce political battle," Popovic said as quoted.
In his final arguments on Monday, public prosecutor Jovan Prijic also demanded 40-year prison sentences for former police Col. Zvezdan Jovanovic, the alleged shooter who fired two sniper round that killed Djindjic, and the alleged organizer of the plot, former police Col. Milorad Lukovic Legija, the former commander of the notorious Secret Service’s Special Operations Unit.
The defense was scheduled to start delivering closing arguments on Wednesday. The verdict is expected in May and it might be followed by appeal prioceedings.

Bulgaria supports Albania, Croatia and Macedonia in their NATO pre-accession period
“Bulgaria supports Albania, Croatia and Macedonia in their NATO pre-accession period”, Mrs. Tsveta Markova, chairperson of Bulgaria’s State Commission on Information Security (SCIS) told FOCUS News Agency. Today and tomorrow a second regional meeting of national bodies in the field of protection of classified information from the Balkan countries will be held. The meeting is a sequel to the first event of its kind that was held last year in Varna at SCIS’ initiative.

Candidates to head Bulgarian Radio checked by ecret Files Committee
“We have no intention to change the dates set for choosing a general director of the Bulgarian National Radio (BNR) because our contest was called a long time ago”, Maria Stefanova, chairperson of the Council for Electronic Media (CEM) told FOCUS News Agency. The date is May 11, but rumours spread it may be put off for after the MEP elections. “On May 8 – 9 we will have talks with the candidates, on May 11 we will choose BNR’s general director”, she explained. A list with all the candidates has been sent to the newly summoned Secret Files Committee and they will be checked for consistency.

Romania: opposition hits back at suspended President with intelligence-related charges

PSD logo (image: psd.ro)
PSD logo
Romania’s opposition Social Democrats (PSD) hit back at popular suspended President Traian Basescu on Sunday with charges of interference with the intelligence community on business issues, HotNews reported. PSD vice-president Dan Nica accused ex-ministers seen as close to Basescu, including ex-Justice minister Monica Macovei and ex-Interior minister Vasile Blaga, of ordering checks on court decisions related to the bankruptcies of economic agents reported in 2002-2007.
Nica's statement came as Liberal PM Calin Popescu Tariceanu accused ex-Agriculture minister Gheorghe Flutur of the Democratic Party on Sunday of putting up false reports on the activity of agricultural payment agencies. Tariceanu says Flutur reported a much higher percentage of operational agencies than there really are.
To support his claims, Nica showed part of an unsigned informative note and two other documents of the Interior Ministry and the Romanian Intelligence Service (SRI) to county tribunals where such checks were urged. Nica urged PM Tariceanu to order his new Interior and Justice ministers to investigate where these requests lead to.
The SRI dismissed the claims replied that the document shown by Nica was a rough counterfeit and said that the Service may sue Nica over his so-called revelations.
The PSD also accused the Democratic Party, the main political group supporting suspended president Traian Basescu, of organizing illegal meetings in support of Basescu and urged new Interior minister Cristian David to act against such moves.

Kyrgyzstan: opposition says “Bakiyev is starting political terror”
Kyrgyz Ar Namys opposition party published a statement on its website today accusing officers of the State National Security Committee (KGB) and Kyrgyz President Kurmanbek Bakiyev in “a predatory attack on the party’s office,” REGNUM news agency informs. “We had permanent failure in connecting to the internet, as on the night of April 20, KGB officers conducted a search and seized all processors. At the same time, headquarters of the ‘For Kyrgyzstan’s Well-Deserved Future’ United Front were attacked. People wearing camouflage failed to produce their papers, broke open gates and doors, entered the office from the windows of the first floor, beat and robbed the guards, took away the party’s property including computers, office supplies, personal belongings of the front activists right up to paper clips, cigarettes and liver sausage for the dog in the yard. They took away all documents… At present moment, the office is starting to function,” the statement says.

Bosnia vs Serbia: The evidence scandal

A session of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) at the Peace Palace in The Hague, Netherlands. (Wikipedia)
Image: Wikipedia

Accusations and denials abound about censored evidence that could have helped Bosnia's case against Serbia at the International Court of Justice, as a divided Bosnia considers a review of the ruling.

By Anes Alic in Sarajevo for ISN Security Watch (24/04/07)

The discovery of new evidence may lead Bosnian legal experts to request a review of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling that cleared Serbia of responsibility for the genocide of Bosniaks and Croats.

Legal experts say that the outcome of the case was seriously affected by the failure to gain access to confidential documents from the war crimes trial of former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic.

Last week, a former Milosevic prosecutor accused Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor at the Hague-based International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY), of cutting a deal with Belgrade to withhold evidence during the Milosevic trial that would have helped Bosnia's case against Serbia.

The ICJ on 26 February cleared Serbia of direct responsibility for genocide and complicity in genocide in Bosnia during the 1992-1995 war. In the key verdict, the court ruled that Serbia had "not committed genocide, through its organs or persons whose acts engage its responsibility under customary international law."

The court said the July 1995 massacre of nearly 8,000 Bosniak (Muslim) men and boys in the eastern town of Srebrenica was an act of genocide committed by Bosnian Serbs. Serbia was found guilty only for failing to prevent the genocide and punish those responsible.
Black out

In 2003, the Serbian government sent boxes with hundreds of documents to the ICTY. Among other things, the documents contain minutes of meetings of the Supreme Defense Council, the top decision-making body at that time, created in 1992 and comprised of high-ranking Serbian politicians and military officials, as well as Bosnian Serb officials, including war time army commander Ratko Mladic, who is wanted by the ICTY.

Passages in the documents were blacked out at the request of the Serbian government and the court did not request the complete original archive. According to the ICTY Statute, any country handing over sensitive documents has the right to demand protective measures on some documents, due to national security concerns.

At one point, the court rejected a Bosnian request to demand the full, uncensored documents.

However, last week, former ICTY prosecutor Geoffrey Nice sent a letter to the Zagreb daily Jutarnji List accusing Del Ponte of striking a deal with former Serbian foreign minister Goran Svilanovic to apply protective measures to the documents sent to the court in 2003.

Nice, who led the Milosevic prosecution until the latter's death last year, wrote that the existence of these documents was established by his team in 2002, and that he tried to make them public.

"Del Ponte disregarded my advice and agreed in principle that a substantial part of the records could be kept from the public, as the court subsequently ordered," Nice wrote.

"There was no legal basis for the withholding of the records from the public. There was no conceivable reason for making a deal with Yugoslavia. It served only one purpose: to keep Belgrade's responsibility from public scrutiny and, significantly, from the International Court of Justice."

The Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) rejected the allegations it had concealed documents from the ICJ or made any kind of deal with Belgrade, but confirmed that the prosecution had had frequent correspondence with Belgrade regarding the delivery of the documents.

OTP spokesperson Olga Kavran then told a Hague press briefing on 18 April that although correspondence between government officials and the OTP was a regular event "the suggestion that there was a deal to conceal evidence is completely false."

Kavran also cited the ICTY's Rules of Procedure and Evidence, which says that only the judges and not the prosecutor can decide on the protective measures to keep material from the public. However, she did say that during one correspondence with Belgrade, the prosecution said it would not object to granting "reasonable protective measures" on some documents.

The chief legal representative for Serbia in the ICJ case, Radoslav Stojanovic, told Serbian media that Nice's accusations were absurd and that his letter coincided with US media reports criticizing the ICJ's February verdict.

Stojanovic told Belgrade-based Radio B92 that "such writings are related to resolving Kosovo's final status, trying to put pressure on Serbia to agree with the province's independence, by blackmailing her with a revision of the verdict."
The evidence

Sakib Softic, Bosnia's legal representative, told ISN Security Watch that evidence mentioned by Nice could help prove the involvement of Serbian authorities in the Bosnian war. He pointed out that even the ICJ's vice president, Jordanian judge Awn Shawkat Al-Khasawneh, had suggested the genocide ruling was based on incomplete evidence.

Softic stressed that he did not blame ICTY prosecutors for not handing over the documents, rather he blamed ICJ judges for not requesting them.

A source close to the Bosnian legal team told ISN Security Watch under condition of anonymity that the most interesting part of those documents was related to time of the Srebrenica massacre, dated from May to September of 1995. According to the source, those documents contain several orders from Serbian army officials regarding military actions in Srebrenica.

"The outcome of the verdict surely would be different if the key evidence from the Milosevic trial were not hidden from the public and the ICJ," he told ISN Security Watch.

"Without a doubt they confirm that Bosnian Serb political and army structures were under direct control by the Serbian government, who also gave them financial and logistical support," the source said.

"Among them are orders which confirm that Serbian military authorities were placing, promoting and retiring Bosnian Serb officers, but also orders to the Serbian officers to join the Republika Srpska Army [Bosnian Serb army], a couple of months before the Srebrenica offensive," the source, who has seen the original documents before they were blacked out, said.

He said the Supreme Defense Council held three meetings during the Srebrenica offensive, unusually frequent, and that General Mladic was present at the third session.

The source also said that evidence would have made Serbia liable for the Srebrenica genocide, and that whenever the agenda turned to discussion of the financing of the Bosnian Serb army and personnel matters, as well as to Croatian Serb activities, the documents were blacked out in places.

"For instance, the Serbian Supreme Defense Council decided in 1993 to assist to officers of the Bosnian Serb Army by establishing a body within the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army called the 30th Personnel Center," the source said.

He also said that during the war in Bosnia, up to 4,000 officers on the Yugoslav Army payroll were serving in the Bosnian Serb Army within the 30th Personnel Center, an office dealing with the officers serving in both armies for short temporary assignments or longer indefinite periods.

The source also said there were other documents, besides those censored for the Milosevic trial, which could be used for a revision of the case. Bosnia's legal team is hoping to gain new evidence from the trials against Serbian military and intelligence officials, currently ongoing at the ICTY.

The ICTY is trying Momcilo Perisic, former Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army, who is charged with the aiding, planning and execution of a military campaign of artillery, mortar shelling and sniping on civilian areas of Sarajevo.

"These crimes were, in part, planned, instigated, ordered, committed and aided by members of 30th Personnel Center […] Perisic had reason to know that subordinates of his serving in the Bosnian Serb Army via the 30th Personnel Center had participated in the perpetration of crimes in Sarajevo," reads the indictment.

Among the members of the 30th Personnel Center are Bosnian Serb Army chief General Ratko Mladic, General Stanislav Galic, commander of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, and his successor, General Dragomir Milosevic.

General Galic was sentenced in 2003 by the ICTY to 20 years for the shelling and sniping of Sarajevo; General Milosevic surrendered to the ICTY in 2004 facing charges of crimes against humanity and violations of the laws or customs of war; indicted General Mladic is still at large, believed to be hiding somewhere in Serbia.

Perisic's indictment also says that crimes in Srebrenica were planned, ordered and committed by members of the 30th Personnel Center.

Among other ongoing cases at the ICTY that could provide new evidence in Bosnia's case against Serbia are the trials of the former commander of the Special Forces of Serbian Interior Ministry, Franko Simatovic; former chief of Serbian State Security Services Jovica Stanisic; and Vojislav Seselj, former Serbian deputy prime minister and leader of the Radical Party.

Seselj is charged with founding the White Eagles paramilitary unit, which committed atrocities in Croatia and Bosnia.
Its own worst enemy

However, seeking a revision of the ICJ ruling could be a challenging task, evidence aside, for Bosnia, where ethnically divided nationalist politicians seldom reach agreement.

The greatest resistance comes from Bosnian Serb officials, who were against the lawsuit from the beginning, though they are also dissatisfied with the ruling, as it found Bosnian Serb wartime political and military leaders guilty of genocide - a ruling that could have future implications. Bosnian Serb leaders fear the ruling could lead to stepped up attempts to abolish Bosnia's Serb-dominated entity, Republika Srpska.

Officials representing the international community are also against a revision of the ruling, as is it not in the spirit of reconciliation.

Even an attempt last week by the Bosnian presidency to push through a resolution demanding that Serbia arrest and extradite indicted war criminals failed to pass when the Bosnian Serb member of the presidency, Nebojsa Radmanovic, voted against it. Republika Srpska parliament also rejected the resolution.

Some local media quoted sources from the Bosnian presidency as saying that the international community had even interfered, attempting to convince the Bosniak and Croat members of the presidency to "soften" the document to "suggest" rather than "demand" that Serbia arrest indicted war criminals.

A spokeswoman for the Croat member of the presidency, confirmed that there had been meetings with international officials, but that there was no pressure to change the resolution. "There were meetings on this subject with representatives from United States and several others western embassies in Sarajevo, including High Representative of international community in Bosnia and Herzegovina," the spokeswoman said.

In a press release from his cabinet, Radmanovic also suggested he would "veto" any attempt by Bosnia to seek a review of the ICJ judgment.

However, Softic dismissed Radmanovic's threat, saying that Radmanovic was legally powerless to stop a review of the decision if new evidence were to emerge, and that an attempt to block the revision would be viewed as a political rather than legal issue.

Bosnia has 10 years to start new proceedings at the ICJ if new evidence is discovered proving that Serbia intended to commit genocide in Bosnia. However, if politics is allowed to take a front seat, chances for a review are slim.

A second prosecutor comes forward to validate that Carla del Ponte conspired with the Serbs to hide evidence. Croatia will use this evidence in its upcoming suit against Serbia for genocide. Bosnia has 10 years to refile its suit ... and will be able to use the "sealed documents" against Serbia in the second trial.

Furor continues over classified Serbian documents

25/04/2007

Did a secret deal by chief UN prosecutor Carla del Ponte prevent the International Court of Justice (ICJ) from considering key evidence in Bosnia and Herzegovina's genocide suit against Serbia? Del Ponte says no, arguing that it was up to the ICJ to decide what evidence it wanted to see.

By Antonio Prlenda for Southeast European Times in Sarajevo – 25/04/07
photo

UN chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte. [Getty Images]

Following a letter sent last week by the deputy prosecutor in Slobodan Milosevic's trial, Geoffrey Nice, a second Hague prosecutor has criticised UN chief prosecutor Carla del Ponte, accusing her of being "inept".

Prosecutor Mark Attila Hoare told the Sarajevo daily Dnevni Avaz on Monday (April 23rd) that del Ponte "does not know how to make political deals".

"Carla del Ponte is not a particularly sophisticated person. She is not up to the political games and was never particularly good at them. At one point she found herself in a situation where she did not want to be branded anti-Serb," Hoare said.

When Serbia refused to co-operate, del Ponte agreed to deals where she made mistakes, he claimed.

Nice's letter, sent to the daily Jutarnji List, accused del Ponte of suppressing key evidence involving Serbia and its role in the 1992-1995 conflicts.

In it, he said del Ponte struck a secret deal with Belgrade to retain classified status for certain key documents. Unavailability of the documents, he added, was a factor in a recent International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruling that acquitted Serbia of direct responsibility for the genocide at Srebrenica.

Del Ponte has denied the accusations, saying they stemmed from an insufficient understanding of tribunal processes. "The ICJ and ICTY are completely separate legal institutions," she told the local press. "In the legal cases at ICJ, it is the responsibility of the ICJ to establish which evidence it will examine and which documents it will request. This is not and cannot be a responsibility of ICTY or its prosecutor."

The Bosniak member of the tripartite presidency in Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH), Haris Silajdzic, said Nice's letter proves that the ICJ did not receive the necessary evidence.

"Our legal team has documented that fact during the process at ICJ and categorically requested the ICJ to order Serbia to submit all of the documents from their Supreme Defence Council in Belgrade," he said.

The UN Security Council is obliged to investigate the case and order Serbia to reveal the documents, Silajdzic said. He added, however, that the Serb presidency member, Nebojsa Radmanovic, might block BiH from making such a request to the UN.

Radmanovic says he is ready to discuss the issue. "Somebody will have to present all possible papers," he said. "Let us open the issue at a presidency meeting and make a decision."

The presidency's Croat member, Zeljko Komsic, says it is now up to neighbouring Croatia -- which has also filed a genocide case against Serbia -- to make sure all essential documents are brought before the ICJ.

"Croatia must use all available mechanisms at relevant international institutions, and request all transcripts of Supreme Defence Council meetings in Belgrade, from the beginning of the conflict in Slovenia till the Dayton Peace Agreement," Komsic said.
This content was commissioned for SETimes.com

Despite repeated calls for Karadzic and Mladic to be turned over by Serbs hiding them, the Serb government is apparently unwilling to do so. Mladic is the mastermind of Srebrenica. Karadzic tried to established autonomous Serb regions in Bosnia, much like the autonomous regions radical Islamists try to establish in Europe. Both men are accused of genocide by the Hague.
................

Belgrade. Hague's ex-deputy Prosecutor Graham Blewitt said he is sure the two most wanted Bosnian Serb war crimes suspects Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic would never be caught. He accused the chief UN prosecutor Carla Del Ponte of “being unprofessional and politicized”, especially about the trial against Slobodan Milosevic, the Internet edition of Serbian newspaper Blic announced.

Blewitt also stressed that the chief prosecutor in the trial against Milosevic, Geoffrey Nice, was of the same mind. Mr. Nice lately accused Del Ponte of having agreed with Belgrade to hide trial documents about the role of the former Yugoslavia in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and in Croatia.

Indictments against Karadzic.
Note to Serbs: TURN HIM IN.

* Two counts of genocide (Article 4 of the Statute - genocide, complicity in genocide);
* Five counts of crimes against humanity (Article 5 of the Statute - extermination, murder, persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds, persecutions, inhumane acts (forcible transfer);
* Three counts of violations of the laws or customs of war (Article 3 of the Statute - murder, unlawfully inflicting terror upon civilians, taking hostages);
* One count of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions (Article 2 of the Statute - willful killing).

The entire 15-count indictment against Mladic:

THE PROSECUTOR OF THE TRIBUNAL
AGAINST
RATKO MLADIC

AMENDED INDICTMENT

The Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, pursuant to her authority under Article 18 of the Statute of the Tribunal, charges:

RATKO MLADIC

with GENOCIDE, COMPLICITY IN GENOCIDE, CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, and VIOLATIONS OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as set forth herein:

THE ACCUSED

1. Ratko MLADIC was born on 12 March 1942 in the municipality of Kalinovik in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina ("BiH"). He was trained at the military academy of the Yugoslav People’s Army ("JNA") in Belgrade, and was then a regular officer in the JNA and subsequently in the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina/Republika Srpska ("VRS").

2. In June of 1991, Ratko MLADIC was posted to Knin as Commander of the 9th Corps of the JNA, during fighting between the JNA and Croatian forces. On 4 October 1991, he was promoted to General Major by the President of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia ("SFRY"). On 24 April 1992, Ratko MLADIC was promoted to the rank of General Lieutenant, and on 25 April 1992 he was assigned to the post of Chief of Staff/Deputy Commander of the Second Military District Headquarters of the JNA in Sarajevo. He assumed that post on 9 May 1992. On 10 May 1992, Ratko MLADIC assumed the command of the Second Military District Headquarters of the JNA.

3. On 12 May 1992, Ratko MLADIC was appointed Commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, a position he held until at least 22 December 1996. On 24 June 1994, Ratko MLADIC was promoted to the rank of General Colonel.

STATEMENT OF FACTS

4. In 1990, multi-party elections were held in BiH for the first time since the Second World War. At the Republic level, the SDA (Stranka Demokratske Akcije), the main party of the Bosnian Muslims, won 86 seats in the Assembly; the SDS (Srpska Demokratska Stranka), the main party of the Bosnian Serbs, won 72 seats; and the HDZ (Hrvatska Demokratska Zajednica), the main party of the Bosnian Croats, won 44 seats. The policy of the SDS included an emphasis on the unity of ethnic Serbs in a common state. By early 1991, the SDS began to organise certain areas of BiH into Serb regional areas.

5. On 25 June 1991, Slovenia and Croatia declared their independence from the SFRY. The following day, the JNA was engaged in armed conflict in Slovenia, and fighting broke out in Croatia soon thereafter. In the autumn of 1991, the JNA began to withdraw its forces from Croatia and re-deploy them into BiH. Working in conjunction with certain elements in the JNA, the SDS armed the Bosnian Serb population of BiH.

6. A separate Bosnian Serb Assembly, dominated by the SDS, was founded on 24 October 1991 as the highest representative and legislative organ of the Serbs in BiH. On 21 November 1991, the Bosnian Serb Assembly adopted a decision to endorse the Serb autonomous districts proclaimed in BiH, and on 9 January 1992, the Assembly proclaimed the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, later called Republika Srpska. On 28 February 1992, the Constitution of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared in Article 2 "that the territory of the Republic consists of Serb autonomous regions, municipalities and other Serbian ethnic entities, including the regions in which genocide was committed against the Serb people in the Second World War." Such territories were declared to be part of the federal state of Yugoslavia.

7. Shortly after BiH was internationally recognised as an independent state on 6 April 1992, hostilities broke out in Sarajevo, marking the beginning of a conflict within the city, which would last until 1995. Even before the conflict began, armed forces occupied strategic positions in and around Sarajevo. The city was subsequently subjected to blockade, bombardment and sniper attacks from these positions. From May 1992, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC used shelling and sniping to target civilian areas of the city and its civilian population and institutions, killing and wounding civilians, and thereby also inflicting terror upon the civilian population. Much of the bombardment and sniping was from positions in the hills around and overlooking Sarajevo, from which the attackers had a commanding view of the city, its population and institutions.

8. On 12 May 1992, at the 16th session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly, Radovan KARADZIC announced the six "strategic objectives" of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina:

1. Establish State borders separating the Serbian people from the other two ethnic communities.
2. Set up a corridor between Semberija and Krajina.
3. Establish a corridor in the Drina River valley, that is, eliminate the Drina as a border separating Serbian States.
4. Establish a border on the Una and Neretva Rivers.
5. Divide the city of Sarajevo into Serbian and Muslim parts and establish effective state authorities in both parts.
6. Ensure access to the sea for Republika Srpska.

Moreover, on 12 May 1992, the Bosnian Serb Assembly voted to create the VRS, effectively transforming the JNA units remaining in BiH into units of the VRS. At the same time, the Bosnian Serb Assembly appointed Ratko MLADIC as Commander of the VRS Main Staff.

9. On or about 20 May 1992, after a partial withdrawal of JNA forces from BiH, the JNA Second Military District was effectively transformed into the nucleus of the Main Staff of the VRS.

10. From May 1992, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC took control of municipalities in the Serbian Republic of BiH, primarily in the northwestern region of BiH known as the Bosnian Krajina and in eastern Bosnia. In these municipalities, the Bosnian Serb Forces participated in a campaign of persecutions to drive the non-Serb populations from these territories. Thousands of non-Serbs were deported or forcibly transferred from these municipalities. Many non-Serbs were killed, and many others were held in detention facilities, where they were physically and psychologically abused and subjected to cruel and inhumane conditions. In addition, non-Serb homes, businesses, and religious sites and property were looted, destroyed and/or appropriated.

11. On 19 November 1992, General Ratko MLADIC, in his capacity as Commander of the VRS Main Staff, issued Operational Directive 04, reaffirming the goals set forth in the "strategic objectives" referred to in paragraph 8 above.

12. From January to March 1993, in accordance with Operational Directive 04, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC attacked the Cerska area in eastern BiH. Thousands of Muslims fled to BiH government-controlled territory including Srebrenica and Zepa. On 16 April 1993, the Security Council of the United Nations ("UN"), acting pursuant to Chapter VII of its Charter, adopted Resolution 819, in which it demanded that all parties to the conflict in BiH treat Srebrenica, Zepa, Gorazde, and Sarajevo (and their surroundings) as "safe areas" which were to be free from any armed attack or any other hostile act. Thereafter, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC began to focus particular attention on capturing the strategically located Srebrenica enclave and expelling the Bosnian Muslim population that had fled there in the wake of the 1992 and 1993 "ethnic cleansing" campaigns in eastern BiH referred to in paragraph 10 above.

13. From 26 May 1995 through 19 June 1995, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC seized and held over two hundred UN military observers and UN peacekeepers as hostages, following air strikes by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization ("NATO") against Bosnian Serb Forces in BiH, in order to deter further air strikes in those areas where the hostages were being held. Some of the hostages were assaulted and otherwise maltreated during their captivity.

14. On 8 March 1995, Radovan KARADZIC, as the Supreme Commander of the VRS, issued Operational Directive 07, which directed the VRS to eliminate the Muslim enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa, in furtherance of the "strategic objectives" of 12 May 1992. On 2 July 1995, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC attacked the Srebrenica enclave. This attack on the enclave continued until 11 July 1995, when General Ratko MLADIC and the Bosnian Serb Forces entered Srebrenica. Subsequently, those Bosnian Serb Forces terrorised Bosnian Muslims, who were forcibly transferred to areas outside the enclave and many of whom fled in a huge column through the woods towards Tuzla. The majority of this group consisted of unarmed military personnel and civilians.

15. Between 12 July and about 20 July 1995, thousands of Bosnian Muslim men were captured by, or surrendered to, Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC. Over 7,000 Bosnian Muslim prisoners captured in the area around Srebrenica were summarily executed from 13 July to 19 July 1995. Killings continued thereafter. From about 1 August 1995 through about 1 November 1995, VRS units under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC participated in an organised and comprehensive effort to conceal the killings and executions of the Bosnian Muslims of Srebrenica by reburying, in isolated locations, bodies exhumed from mass graves.

INDIVIDUAL CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY

Position of Accused/Superior Authority

16. As Commander of the Main Staff, General Ratko MLADIC was the most senior officer of the VRS, subordinate only to the Presidency/President of the Republika Srpska. As such he had overall authority and responsibility for the functioning of the VRS. He was responsible for planning and directing all operations of the VRS, and for monitoring the activities of all subordinate officers and units to ensure that his orders were implemented. He exercised military command and control through his Main Staff, which consisted of subordinates, assistants, and branch specialists.

17. In particular, as Commander of the Main Staff, General Ratko MLADIC exercised military command and control over the regular VRS forces throughout BiH, including the 1st Krajina Corps, 2nd Krajina Corps, East Bosnia Corps, Drina Corps, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, Herzegovina Corps, the 65th Protection Regiment, and the 10th Sabotage Detachment. Each Corps within the VRS had a Corps commander and a command staff, all of whom were subordinated to General Ratko MLADIC. At times, General Ratko MLADIC exercised command and control of the VRS in co-ordination with paramilitary forces and volunteer units, the Bosnian Serb Territorial Defence, and the Bosnian Serb police (collectively, with the VRS, "Bosnian Serb Forces"), as well as other civilian bodies, including regional and municipal crisis staffs.

18. By virtue of his authority as set out in military regulations and instructions, General Ratko MLADIC controlled the work of the Main Staff; made decisions for the Main Staff and subordinate units; assigned tasks to subordinates; issued orders, instructions, and directives; ensured the implementation of these orders, instructions and directives and bore full responsibility for their completion; monitored the situation in the area of responsibility of the VRS; ensured the passage of information to civilian and police bodies; and was responsible for the overall state and conduct of the VRS.

19. General Ratko MLADIC was personally responsible for ensuring that Bosnian Serb Forces under his command and control respected and applied the rules of international law governing the conduct of warfare. General Ratko MLADIC was a principal figure in the establishment and administration of the VRS military justice system from May 1992 until at least mid-1993.

Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal

20. General Ratko MLADIC is individually criminally responsible pursuant to Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal for the crimes referred to in Articles 3, 4, and 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal as alleged in this indictment, which he planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or in whose planning, preparation or execution he otherwise aided and abetted. By using the word "committed" in this indictment, the Prosecutor does not suggest that the accused physically committed any of the crimes charged personally. "Committed" in this indictment includes participation in a joint criminal enterprise.

21. The objective of the joint criminal enterprise within BiH was the elimination or permanent removal, by force or other means, of Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat, or other non-Serb inhabitants from large areas of BiH through the commission of crimes which are punishable under Articles 3, 4, and 5 of the Statute of the Tribunal. General Ratko MLADIC participated in the joint criminal enterprise as a co-perpetrator and/or an aider and abettor.

22. The crimes enumerated in all the counts of this indictment were within the objective of the joint criminal enterprise, and General Ratko MLADIC possessed the state of mind necessary for the commission of each of these crimes. Alternatively, such crimes as were not within the objective of the joint criminal enterprise were the natural and foreseeable consequence of the execution of the joint criminal enterprise, and General Ratko MLADIC was aware that these crimes were the possible consequence of the execution of the joint criminal enterprise.

23. The joint criminal enterprise was in existence at the time of the commission of the underlying criminal acts alleged in this indictment and at the time of the participatory acts of the accused in furtherance thereof.

24. Numerous individuals participated in this joint criminal enterprise. Each participant, by acts or omissions, significantly contributed to the overall objective of the enterprise. General Ratko MLADIC worked in concert with or through other members of the joint criminal enterprise, including General Momir TALIC, General Stanislav GALIC, General Dragomir MILOSEVIC, General Radislav KRSTIC and other members of the Bosnian Serb Forces; Radovan KARADZIC, Momcilo KRAJISNIK, Biljana PLAVSIC and other members of the leadership of the Bosnian Serbs and of the SDS; members of civilian bodies within BiH, including regional and municipal crisis staffs; members of the JNA and the Yugoslav Army ("VJ"); Slobodan MILOSEVIC and other military and political figures from the SFRY and the Republic of Serbia; and members of Serbian paramilitary and volunteer units.

25. As Commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Ratko MLADIC, acting individually and in concert with other members of the joint criminal enterprise, participated in the joint criminal enterprise from no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996 in the following ways:

1. Planning, preparing, facilitating, or executing a campaign of persecutions, which included acts of genocide, within BiH, by establishing control of the municipalities listed in Paragraph 36 of the indictment; attacking and destroying non-Serb towns and villages, as well as looting, destroying, and/or appropriating residential, commercial and religious properties in the municipalities; killing and terrorising the non-Serb inhabitants, and submitting them to cruel and inhumane treatment and conditions, including physical, psychological and sexual abuse, often in detention facilities; using non-Serbs for forced labour, including at front lines, and as human shields; imposing restrictive and discriminatory measures on the non-Serb population; and separating, deporting, and permanently removing non-Serbs who did not subjugate themselves to Serb authorities;

2. Planning, preparing, facilitating, or executing a protracted military campaign of artillery and mortar shelling and sniping into civilian areas of Sarajevo and upon its civilian population and institutions, killing and wounding civilians, and thereby inflicting terror upon its civilian population;

3. Planning, preparing, facilitating, or executing an operation to take UN military observers and UN peacekeepers as hostages following NATO air strikes on 25 and 26 May 1995;

4. Planning, preparing, facilitating, or further executing the campaign of persecutions, which included acts of genocide, after the capture of Srebrenica in July 1995, by forcibly transferring the Bosnian Muslim women and children from the Srebrenica enclave to Kladanj; capturing, detaining, summarily executing, and burying thousands of Bosnian Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica, all of whom were either separated from the group of Bosnian Muslim refugees in Potocari or captured from the column of Bosnian Muslim men escaping the Srebrenica enclave; and exercising command and control over an organised and comprehensive operation designed to conceal the execution campaign by exhuming bodies from the initial mass graves and reburying them, en masse, in isolated secondary locations;

5. Aiding and abetting, or instigating the commission of, further crimes by failing to investigate, to follow up on investigations, and to punish subordinates in the Bosnian Serb Forces for crimes committed against Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Croats, or other non-Serbs.

26. General Ratko MLADIC knowingly and wilfully participated in the joint criminal enterprise, while sharing the intent of other participants in the joint criminal enterprise, or having knowledge of the intent of other participants in the joint criminal enterprise, or being aware of the foreseeable consequences of their actions. On this basis, he bears individual criminal responsibility for these crimes under Article 7(1) of the Statute of the Tribunal in addition to his responsibility under the same Article for having planned, instigated, ordered or otherwise aided and abetted in the planning, preparation, or execution of these crimes.

Article 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal

27. General Ratko MLADIC, while holding a position of superior authority, is also individually criminally responsible for the acts or omissions of his subordinates, pursuant to Article 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal. In his capacity as Commander of the Main Staff of the VRS, General Ratko MLADIC exercised de jure and de facto command and control over the Bosnian Serb Forces that participated in the crimes alleged in this indictment. General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that all crimes alleged in this indictment were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof. General Ratko MLADIC’s duty to punish included an obligation to investigate and establish the facts of the crime, to put an end to the criminal activity, and to impose appropriate punitive measures on the perpetrator.

28. General Ratko MLADIC knew that by failing to prevent or punish breaches of international humanitarian law, he would be personally liable for such breaches of the law. Moreover, he knew that repeated failure to take action against such groups or individuals would make him an instigator or accomplice to such breaches of international humanitarian law.

GENERAL ALLEGATIONS

29. All acts and omissions charged in this indictment as crimes against humanity were part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against the Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat or other non-Serb civilian populations of BiH.

30. At all times relevant to this indictment, a state of armed conflict existed in BiH.

31. General Ratko MLADIC was required to abide by the laws and customs governing the conduct of armed conflicts, including the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the Additional Protocols thereto.

THE CHARGES

COUNTS 1 and 2
GENOCIDE, COMPLICITY IN GENOCIDE

By his acts and omissions, General Ratko MLADIC participated in:

Count 1: GENOCIDE, punishable under Articles 4(3)(a), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 2: COMPLICITY IN GENOCIDE, punishable under Articles 4(3)(e), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

32. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC, acting individually or in concert with other participants in the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of the intentional partial destruction of the Bosnian Muslim national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such, from Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Srebrenica.

33. As alleged in paragraphs 20 to 26, General Ratko MLADIC participated in a joint criminal enterprise. The main objective of the joint criminal enterprise was primarily achieved through a manifest pattern of persecutions as alleged in this indictment. This campaign of persecutions included or escalated to include conduct committed with the intent to destroy in part the national, ethnical, racial or religious group of Bosnian Muslims, as such, in certain municipalities within BiH. Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC targeted a significant part of the Bosnian Muslim group for intended destruction. This form of partial destruction of the Bosnian Muslims took place in Banja Luka, Bosanska Krupa, Bratunac, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Srebrenica, Vlasenica and Zvornik.

34. The destruction of these groups was effected by:

1. the widespread killing, deportation, and forcible transfer of non-Serbs during and after the attacks on Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Srebrenica. Bosnian Muslims were killed and hundreds of thousands deported or forcibly transferred in furtherance of the 1992 and 1993 "ethnic cleansing" campaigns in the Bosnian Krajina and in eastern Bosnia. These killings include those in Banja Luka, Bosanska Krupa, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor and Sanski Most specified in Schedule A. In eastern Bosnia, a large segment of the Bosnian Muslim population was driven into the area of Cerska-Kamenica and then ultimately routed to Tuzla and Srebrenica. After the fall of Srebrenica, thousands of Bosnian Muslim males were executed in Bratunac, Srebrenica, Vlasenica and Zvornik in an organised and systematic fashion over the course of several days, an event which occurred contemporaneously with the forcible transfer of the remainder of the Bosnian Muslim community of Srebrenica. These killings include those specified in Schedule B;

2. the causing of serious bodily or mental harm to Bosnian Muslims in Banja Luka, Bosanska Krupa, Bratunac, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Srebrenica, Vlasenica and Zvornik, including during their confinement in the detention facilities in Banja Luka, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor and Sanski Most specified in Schedule C. Bosnian Muslims in these municipalities were subjected to cruel or inhumane treatment, including torture, physical and psychological abuse, sexual violence and beatings;

3. the subjecting of Bosnian Muslims to conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction, namely through cruel and inhumane treatment, including torture, physical and psychological abuse and sexual violence, inhumane living conditions, and forced labour, in Banja Luka, Bosanska Krupa, Bratunac, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor, Sanski Most, Srebrenica, Vlasenica and Zvornik. In addition, in the detention facilities in Banja Luka, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Prijedor and Sanski Most specified in Schedule C, the conditions calculated to bring about the physical destruction of Bosnian Muslims also included the failure to provide adequate accommodation, shelter, food, water, medical care or hygienic sanitation facilities.

35. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that the crimes alleged in paragraphs 32 to 34 above were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates, and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.

COUNT 3
PERSECUTIONS

By his acts and omissions, General Ratko MLADIC participated in:

Count 3: Persecutions on political, racial and religious grounds, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(h), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

36. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC, acting individually or in concert with other participants in the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of the persecution of the Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat or other non-Serb populations of the following municipalities: Banja Luka, Bihac-Ripac, Bijeljina, Bosanska Gradiska, Bosanska Krupa, Bosanski Novi, Bratunac, Brcko, Doboj, Foca, Gacko, Kalinovik, Kljuc, Kotor Varos, Nevesinje, Novi Grad, Prijedor, Rogatica, Sanski Most, Srebrenica, Teslic, Vlasenica, Vogosca and Zvornik ("Municipalities").

37. Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of Ratko MLADIC, committed persecutions in the Municipalities upon Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Croats and other non-Serbs. The persecutions included:

1. killings during and after attacks on towns and villages in the Municipalities, including those listed in Schedule A and Schedule B;

2. terrorisation and cruel or inhumane treatment during and after the attacks on towns and villages in the Municipalities including torture, physical and psychological abuse, sexual violence and the imposition of inhumane living conditions;

3. forcible transfer and deportation;

4. unlawful detention in detention facilities, including those listed in Schedule C;

5. killings related to detention facilities, including those listed in Schedule A;

6. cruel or inhumane treatment in detention facilities including those listed in Schedule C. This treatment included torture, physical and psychological abuse and sexual violence;

7. the establishment and perpetuation of inhumane living conditions in detention facilities, including those listed in Schedule C. These conditions included the failure to provide adequate:

1. accommodation or shelter;
2. food or water;
3. medical care;
4. hygienic sanitation facilities;

8. forced labour, including digging graves and trenches and other forms of forced labour at front lines, and the use of Bosnian Muslim, Bosnian Croat or other non-Serb individuals as human shields;

9. the appropriation or plunder of property during and after attacks, in detention facilities and in the course of deportations or forcible transfers. The appropriation of property included the practice of forcing non-Serbs to sign over their property to Bosnian Serb authorities before being permitted to leave the Municipalities;

10. the intentional or wanton destruction of private property including homes and business premises, and public property including cultural monuments and sacred sites;

11. the destruction of personal property and effects, including identification documents;

12. the imposition and maintenance of restrictive and discriminatory measures including:

1. the denial of freedom of movement;
2. the denial of employment through removal from positions of authority in local government institutions, the military, and the police, and general dismissal from employment;
3. the invasion of privacy through arbitrary searches of homes;
4. the denial of the right to judicial process; and
5. the denial of equal access to public services.

38. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that the crimes alleged in paragraphs 36 and 37 above were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates, and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.

COUNTS 4, 5 and 6
EXTERMINATION AND MURDER

By his acts and omissions, General Ratko MLADIC participated in:

Count 4: Extermination, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(b), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 5: Murder, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(a), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 6: Murder, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3, 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

39. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC, acting individually or in concert with other participants in the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of the extermination and murder of Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Croats or other non-Serbs in the Municipalities. The extermination and murder was effected by killings during and after attacks on towns and villages and in relation to detention facilities, including those listed in Schedules A and B.

40. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that the crimes alleged in paragraph 39 above were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates, and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.

COUNTS 7 and 8
DEPORTATION, INHUMANE ACTS

By his acts and omissions, General Ratko MLADIC participated in:

Count 7: Deportation, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(d), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 8: Inhumane acts (forcible transfer), a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(i), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

41. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC, acting individually or in concert with other participants in the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of the forcible transfer and deportation of Bosnian Muslims, Bosnian Croats or other non-Serbs from and within BiH, including those areas comprising the Municipalities.

42. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that the crimes alleged in paragraph 41 above were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates, and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.

COUNTS 9 to 14
UNLAWFULLY INFLICTING TERROR UPON CIVILIANS, MURDER, CRUEL TREATMENT, INHUMANE ACTS, ATTACKS ON CIVILIANS

By his acts and omissions, General Ratko MLADIC participated in:

Count 9: Unlawfully inflicting terror upon civilians, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as set forth in Article 51 of Additional Protocol I and Article 13 of Additional Protocol II to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3, 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 10: Murder, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3, 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 11: Murder, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(a), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 12: Cruel treatment, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(a) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3, 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 13: Inhumane acts, a CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY, punishable under Articles 5(i), 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal;

Count 14: Attacks on civilians, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as recognised by Article 51(2) of Additional Protocol I and Article 13(2) of Additional Protocol II to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3, 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

43. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC acting individually or in concert with other participants of the joint criminal enterprise, planned, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted the planning, preparation or execution of a protracted military campaign in which Bosnian Serb Forces under his command and control, and in particular the Sarajevo Romanija Corps, used artillery and mortar shelling and sniping to target civilian areas of Sarajevo and its civilian population and institutions, killing and wounding civilians, and thereby also inflicting terror upon its civilian population.

44. From no later than 12 May 1992 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that the crimes alleged in paragraph 43 above were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates, and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.

COUNT 15
TAKING OF HOSTAGES

By his acts and omissions, General Ratko MLADIC participated in:

Count 15: Taking of hostages, a VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OR CUSTOMS OF WAR, as recognised by Common Article 3(1)(b) of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, punishable under Articles 3, 7(1) and 7(3) of the Statute of the Tribunal.

45. From no later than 26 May 1995 until at least 22 December 1996, Ratko MLADIC, acting individually or in concert with other members of the joint criminal enterprise, planned, instigated, ordered, committed, or otherwise aided and abetted in the planning, preparation or execution of the taking of UN military observers and UN peacekeepers as hostages, following NATO air strikes on 25 and 26 May 1995.

46. Bosnian Serb Forces under the command and control of General Ratko MLADIC detained and took hostage over two hundred UN peacekeepers and military observers in Pale, Sarajevo and other locations. They held them at locations of strategic or military significance across BiH in order to render these particular locations immune from further NATO airstrikes, and to prevent further NATO airstrikes generally.

47. From no later than 26 May 1995 until at least 22 December 1996, General Ratko MLADIC knew or had reason to know that the crimes alleged in paragraphs 45 and 46 above were about to be committed or had been committed by his subordinates, and he failed to take necessary and reasonable measures to prevent such acts or punish the perpetrators thereof.

________________________
Carla Del Ponte
Prosecutor

Dated this tenth day of October 2002
At The Hague,
The Netherlands

Ok Morgan. I am a Serb born and living in Serbia.

I invite you for an experiment.

1) Come to my city in Serbia Proper (outside Kosovo) and we (you and me) will together declare publicly in the street ourselves as Albanians, Croats, Bosnians or whatever nation you think Serbs hate. Then we will see what will happen. Let me tell you - nothing. Probably someone will tell us - "I don't care who you are..."

2) Then, you will go to any city in Kosovo with Albanian majority and declare yourself in public as a Serb... I will not join you there, sorry. That will be your last day on this earth.

jcom972
Diesel automotive tech is also getting lots of research and hi tech updates. I read about great research being done by Honda and Toyota (I hope for more American research and profiting from innovative diesel research)If you are interested there is a diesel ping list at Free Republic-->> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1825935/posts

USA has already instituted low sulfur requirements for diesel fuel which kicked in last summer. This obviously translates into cleaner diesel exhausts

jcom972
As far as bio-fuels it's very difficult for us to duplicate during a few growing seasons the products that took nature eons upon eons to make. I mean oil and coal. Huge masses of "stuff" to process and refine and transports. Oil and coal are more easily transportable because they come already carbonized and condensed. But must be refined of course

Morgaan
That's called an infodump.

Morgaan, to quote many a forumite

TLDR

"Too long, didn't read."

I recommend posting links that way you can get as much info as you want in a single post.

LazarofSerbia

I'm sorry. Since I've already had my life threatened by Serbs in this country, I won't be visiting your homeland anytime soon ... but actually, I'd like to and have always wanted to.

I think you suggest a good test case, but under the protection of a good Serb like yourself. But if I went into some Serb areas and declared myself a Jew, Albanian, or Bosnian Muslim, and you weren't there to protect me, what do you think would happen.

Better still, perhaps as a real test case I should declare myself the relative of the journalist who writes about Serb responsibility and see what happens. I don't think it'll be pretty, though. They bombed his house in two places last week.

But, as I've said many times, there are no real innocents on any side of this.

I do think, however, that asking the people living in Kosovo to accept rule by the people who tried to genocide them less than 10 years ago is asking more than we can expect.

I would say the same thing if Serb-majority Serbia were asked to accept the rule of Albanians.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall ... but there are times where one works well: Israel right now needs one, and there needs to be a complete political wall between Serbs and Albanians until everybody's blood cools down a bit.

AND I would mightily like to see two things happen:

(1) I would like the Serb people to hand over Mladic and Karadzic, because their sheltering them besmirches the entire nation. And ...

(2) I would like Mr. Kostunica to demand that the sealed Serb military papers be unsealed for the Kosovo and 2nd Bosnian suits.

But ... that said, I hope for the day we all can be standing anywhere in the Balkans and feel safe.

But I don't think that will happen with war criminals on the loose, and I don't think it will happen as long as Serbs get on boards like this one and lie about history and the facts and call for the genocide of Albanians and Bosnians who are not jihadists in the name of land control.

Spectacles ...

I appreciate your point, but I'm noit likely to do that. Whether people read every one of the 15 indictments against Mladic and the 22 against Karadzic they at least to get the picture of how extensive this little jihad really was.

And you note something if you look through a number of these Kosovo threads. I proffer an opinion, I back up what I say with research, and what I get for it is personal attack.

After a couple of days of this, I start feeling as if turning the other cheek is failing as a principle of self-defense, and I start pushing back.

And I start posting reams of information that reflect the real history of the times since 1989 when Milosevic dragged up every historical beef, real or imagined, to shore up a personal lust for power and greed for land that left as many as 200,000 dead -- and left his country with the reputation of being the worst war criminals since the Third Reich.

I don't think the Serbs all deserve that, but the only way they're going to get out of it is to realize what a monster Milosevic, Mladic, Stakic, Karadzic and others really were -- stop treating them like hero sons and instead realize they did something against the spirit of the Serb people themselves, who will, in the end, be their most damaged and most PERMANENTLY damaged people, unless they rise with a spirit that echews this hatred and can encompass in heart all of those who live in their view. ]

And the same is true for the Albanians and Bosnians and Croats who defend the war criminals brought to trial at The Hague, whose acts are no less egregious than those of the Serbs, only many fewer. Of all the cases brought at The Hague 60% are against Serbs: the other 40% comprise all the other groups in the whole of the Balkans. There is a message there, and it is not wrong. The others in the Balkans did not start these wars, and that makes Serbia more responsible than they on a governmental level, though not on a personal one.

Therefore, when I encounter 25 posts in a row yelling mooooooooooooorgaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan ...

... and calling me a Muslim (not!) ...
... and calling me a PC multiculturist (not!) ...
... and a variety of other things ...

... well, I'll just post what I like.

I personally take the 60-40 split as more of a sign that the Serbs lost, after all the Winner writes the History books.

And NATO feels like they beat somebody judging by their actions, rather than quell a conflict they act like they "whooped somebody's ass" and feel like doing an endzone dance on their face.

But thats just my personal observation, also consider this little tidbit found by a blogger

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/04/epirus-threat.html

Its another Albanian Terror Cell, however in Greece this time.

If the Kosovo conflict was a case of Serbian agression why has this little Cell popped up? Could they be victims in Greece as well? If they are victims and not terrorists why do they hide their faces? Why do they make demands with Guns and masks?

Could this infact be the building blocks of a Greater Albania? A new Caliphate?

I can't answer these questions myself but it is a very serious situation that requires observation. It can really throw a wrench in the Albanian Victimhood Concept.

"gendercidal atrocities"...

That's a linguistic atrocity.

Morgaan dear, I can see that you have no idea about Balkans. You don't need protection, I will declare myself as an Albanian with you.

This journalist was attacked by some criminals and has full support by Serbian society. He said a few days ago that he is surprised because of nation-wide support he enjoys.

And serious one - YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE about Kosovo, so please don't write about "genocide" and alike nonsense. Please. In western media we always read about "genocidal" Serbs killing "men and boys". You know what "men and boys" means? It means SOLDIERS. And many soldiers are killed in war, yes. That's what war is about, unfortunately.

You have to read some history (instead of educating yourself on CNN) and see that Serbs were victims of genocide in Kosovo. Huhdred years ago Serbs were majority in Kosovo and were persecuted on national and religious basis for centuries. Serbian girls were raped and children killed in most bestial ways. Serbian people had their throats slit in Kosovo during world wars and communist Yugoslavia - Albanian fascists fought in Kosovo until 1956, more that a decade after WWII! And when Serbia was finally able to defend its own land and went after KLA terrorists, eliminated some KLA terrorists ("man and boys" in CNN language), then this is "genocide". Yeah. That's why Serbs were majority and now are less than 10% in Kosovo. Probably we commited genocide against ourselves.

You wrote many untruths about Serbs other than these, but I'm not here to give free history lectures. If you want to know, read history books my friend, not Times Online.

Serbs were and are fighting against these:
http://skynews-clips.videoloungetv.com/public/skynews/latest/bosnia_p3705.wmv

Moron Spamclair has left the building.

During a February mission to Brussels led by Kosovo Bishop Artemije, after getting the usual empty assurances that there will be guarantees of human rights and protections for Kosovo’s Serb minority, American Council for Kosovo director Jim Jatras asked a Hungarian member of the European parliament, “Isn’t all this talk of protections for Serbs a tacit admission that among the Kosovo Albanians are a lot of violent and intolerant people? Why would you reward their violence with state power?”

Looking Jatras in the eye, the parliamentarian replied, “Because we’re afraid of them.”

More lies from you, Ms. Sinclair. Yes, in the meantime I've learned that you could actualy be a woman.

I am living in Belgrade for a long time now, and I've been here many times during the 1990s and before. That was irreplaceable expirience for me. Because I was able to witnes all the hypocracy and lies of my own culture from the front raw, lies of my BBC, SKY and CNN. But that is not that important. That issue will come when enough people open their eyes, and this site is eyeopener that was needed badly.

More important, Ms. Sinclair, is that You have detail informations on very current events in the region of "West Balkans" concerning intra-national relations. That can only tell me that you yourself are living in Balkans. I know your kind. I've met Your kind on many occasions. Are you in Sarajevo? Or here in Belgrade? You sweet talking lying people. You all are THE hipocracy that I'm ashamed of. You are actualy payed and organized here to spread lies in order to justify failed and dangerous policy.

Yes, Ms. Sinclair, there are Westerners (if you are Westerner at all) who are here on agenda with coliding course with Your NGO mafia. And they are in Serbia. You were everything what average Serb used to hear as Western opinion. But your monopoly is over. Serbia is true democracy now. People like us were called Serbianlovers and Miloseviclovers. Now when hysteria is over, I'll be collecting your motherlovin' asses in the name of truth and honor.

And thus I'll not be defending Serbs only. By pursuing your kind, fighting you with the truth, I'll be helping higher cause. At least, I'll be saving face of the West in Serbian eyes, and hopefuly repair as much damage as I can.

What I hope to see is Balkan Ortodox peoples united once again as gatekeepers of Europe, and first line defenders of the West.

Please note that nowdays Serbia (after all wars and misery) is the most multicultural, multireligious and multinational country in former Yugoslavia. There are around 50 nationalities living in Serbia, and Serbs are only slightly over 2/3 of total population (including over a milion Shqiptars in Kosovo). That must be logical outcome of that intolerant image of the Serbs created by diferent Sinclairs over 15 years...

Where oh where to begin with Herr Spamclair's spam odyssey ?

Why not pull a paragraph , any paragraph , from her spam-fest and take the piss out of it. Just for a laaarf , like .

"Srebrenica is situated in what had become, and still is, Republika Srpska. The town, declared a UN safe area in 1992, was now a Bosniak enclave in the care of the French and Dutch governments. In July 1995 Serb troops and paramilitaries led by Ratko Mladic descended on Srebrenica and began shelling it. They had already dealt with Muslim soldiers in the countryside villages. Now they were besieging Srebrenica's thousands of Muslim civilians. Food supplies and water began to dwindle, buildings were damaged, people were injured. Soon Serb troops were able to take up positions close the town's outskirts"

This'll do.

"The town, declared a UN safe area in 1992"

Boing, it was declared a safe area in 93 , not 92 .

"was now a Bosniak enclave in the care of the French and Dutch governments"

Boing ! You're getting confused . It was in the care of the UN . The clue can be found in the phrase "UNsafe area"

Dutch troops did of course stay in the enclave , Dutchbat 1 , 2 and 3 and prior to them , a Canadian contingent . A French general , Morillion ( sp ) , had come to Srebrenica , but i don't know where you got this phrase - French and Dutch governments - from .

"In July 1995 Serb troops and paramilitaries led by Ratko Mladic descended on Srebrenica"

Boing . Even the expert prosecution witness , Richard Butler , a US Major - i think - stated that there were NO paramilitary formations in Operation Krivaca

" They had already dealt with Muslim soldiers in the countryside villages"

No, the 28th division had already decided - way before the Serb offensive - to let the town fall . Oric had received a huge sum of gold for Sarajevo in return for letting the town fall . He's admitted to this on many occasions , the funeral of Izetbegovic for example , and it's been a very open secret in Sarajevo for years too . On the morning of the 11th , the Dutch soldiers who were manning the OPs woke up to find the muslim soldiers - who'd been manning the lines between the the OPs - had fled in the night and the VRS - Bosnian Serb army - had advanced past them towards the town.

Had they'd wanted to , the 28th could have easily held off the Serbs . They vastly outnumbered the VRS and had been reequipped by mule convoy and helicopter from Tuzla with new weapons - ak47s , anti tank mines and rockets etc - they even had a tank .

"Food supplies and water began to dwindle"

Boing . The Bosnian Serbs always allowed the convoys of food and supplies to enter Srebrenica . The reason why the civilians were starving was that Oric , the leader ofthe 28th , hoarded all the food and parceled it out to his officers , etc . The rest was sold at HUGE profit to the poor Muslim civs. Oric made a killing . He was feared and hated by the civilians and any leaders chosen by the civilians were ruthlessly hunted down by Oric's death squads . The Bosnian Serbs in the villages had also wanted a barter system started with the Srebrenica civilians . Both Oric and the Sarajevo Islamists said "No". It would have cut into Oric's profits and Sarajevo wanted the civilians to die for propaganda purposes .

This PR reason also explains why your hero - Nazi goon Izetbegovic - refused to allow the civilians of Sarajevo to leave . Both the Bosnian Croats and Serbs had demanded such a move - no one wants civilians in the middle of a battle - but the muslims said no . They needed some good photos of civilians suffering .

That was just one paragraph of nonsense from all those pages of Spam from Herr Spamclair.

FFS , not only do you spam as if there's no tomorrow , but it's ALL WRONG .

Now go away , little child .

Under no circumstances should an ethnic supremacist group EVER be allowed to rule a people it has just tried to EXTERMINATE.

If the inhabitants of Kosovo vote independence from Serbia, they should be granted it, just as Scotland should be granted independence from England when they vote it in.

Either you believe people are free or you don't.

In any event, any people that tries to do to the Croats, Bosnians, and Kosovars what Serbia did should be preventing from ruling ANYTHING or ANYBODY for 100 years.

ewha1 ... EITHER PROVIDE SOME CITATION FOR YOUR LIES OR SHUT UP.

Scotland HAS right to get independent state. Unlike Kosovo. Because, there are Scots, and there are NOT Kosovars. There are only Albanians. And Albanians have Albania as their soverein state. Scots still don't have Scotland as independent state. That is the point of the right to selfdetermination of a nation: existance of a nation that don't have independent state. Like Kurds or Basks. If a nation is only a minority, and one next to the native state, that is not ground for selfdetermination. It is a bloody muslim conquest.

If Kosovo wanted referendum on independance, it should be held ih whole Serbia, because kosovo isn't entity, except in your mind and minds of other terrorist spawns.

Lies lies, Ms. Sinclair. Your fight is futile. There is not and there have never been a lie powerful enough to defeat the truth.

Truth is on my side, and you know it. Retreat to insignificance!!!

Hilarious, Herr Spamclair.

You demand sources but you just spam propaganda from , for example , the ICTY's prosecution's indictment against Bosnian Serbs. How is that a neutral source?

And it's all , all in the ICTY cases against Krle , Blagojevic and Jokic and the Milosevic.

Prosecution witnesses too , not defence witnesses. The very witnesses the prosecution for the ICTY brought in were forced to admit what I'd previously printed.

But, you, sweet little spamhead , haven't bothered to read the many 1,000's of pages have you.

You're a bit of lazy trollop really.

Hilarious.

And you believe that Srebrenica was declared a safe haven in when , 1992 ?

That's not even remdial , really fucking elementary stuff ffs......and you demand corroborating evidence when i say it was declared a safe haven in the following year?

You can't even get BASIC friggin' facts about Srebrenica correct can you?

You're a trollop.

I won't go over all the comments I made: it's common knowledge in Sarajevo what an absolute murderous thug , Oric was , how he murdered his own civilians , stole , and earned a fortune on the black market from his own peoples' misery . Also , his comments about being paid by Izetbegovich to let Srebrenica fall are common knowledge too. When Milosevic's expert witnesses noted it , the prosecution didn't question it for ex.

Where do you get your info from ? Wikipedia ? Idiot

About such friggin' basic information as when Srebrenica was declared a safe haven , I'll quote the opening statement against KRLE just so you can't accuse me of using Serbophile witnesses ,etc

" on the 16th of April, 1993, the Security Council, acting pursuant to Chapter VII of its Charter, adopted Resolution 819. This resolution demanded that the parties treat Srebrenica as a safe area"

Page 448 opening statement by Mr Harmon for the prosecution against General Krle.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHA

Spamclair calls herself an expert but is lost on even the most BASIC effin' info about Srebrenica.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

A question for Herr "I don't even know the most basic of facts about Srebrenica" Spamclair.

On one of your previous spam-till-you-drop-fests you posted the following about Srebrenica.

"Others died in their thousands on farms, football fields, school playgrounds. The whole action was carried out with military efficiency. It is said that the transport drivers were each forced to kill one man, to deter them from testifying against the Serb troops later

I've highlighted the bit about the drivers supposedly being forced to kill the POWs.

Now, if you know anything about the case, you should know which witness claimed this.

Do you?

And secondly, do you regard his testimony as being reliable?

Well ? Do you?

Over to you Herr"I don't know when Srebrenica was declared a safe haven" Spamclair.

There are 30,000 Albanians living now in Belgrade. Why didn't we "exterminate" them?

But you see, there were 40,000 Serbs in Prishtina (Kosovo capital) before NATO bombing and now there are less than 100 who are guarded night and day by UN troops to keep their naked lives.

Serbs owned in private property 2/3rds of land in Bosnia and this elementary right is violated. Serb land is stolen and given to Bosnian Muslims and Croats.

700,000 Serbs were slaughtered in Croatian Nazi concentration camp Jasenovac in WWI. In 1995. Croatian army expelled almost the same number of Serbs from Croatia. Now there are a few thousand Serbs left begging for elementary human rights. And still, there are 20,000 Croatians in Belgrade... May young people from Zagreb are coming to Belgrade every weekend because of "good fun and night life" in Serbian capital.

You want more about extermination?

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/demophilus/2007/may/03/us_and_nato_forces_are_used_to_protect_the_osama_bin_laden_mosque_in_kosovo

Silence from self anointed expert , Herr Spamclair.

I asked you a very simple question. Who was witness who claimed that the drivers of the buses were forced to kill the POWs?

If you had even the slightest understanding of the trials at the ICTY you'd know the answer.

So, WHO THE F*&K IS IT?

Likewise, if you had even the most minimal of knowledge on Srebrenica circa July 95, you'd know that this witness's testimony was worthless crap.

So, once again, WHO THE F*&K IS IT?

Tick tock tick tock

Herr Spamclair , having trouble with the witness's name?

I'm shocked , SHOCKED ,I tell you