Eurabia Alert: Dhimmi Islamochristianity comes to Ceuta. The people who did this probably expect, or at least hope, that Muslims in Spain will reciprocate in some way -- add some Christian element to Eid al-Fitr or Eid al-Adha. These hopes will undoubtedly be dashed.
"Muslims play part in Easter parade for first time," from Expatica, with thanks to Nooze:
CEUTA - A traditional Easter parade in Spain broke new ground by allowing Muslim prayer beads to be entwined in the hands of a statue of the Virgin Mary.The Virgin of Hope was paraded through the streets of Ceuta, one of Spain’s two north African enclaves, with a string of Muslim prayer beads entwined in her hand, an unprecedented step during the yearly Holy Week celebrations.
The black prayer beads were donated to the brotherhood which puts on the procession by a Muslim family.
One of the members of the brotherhood is a doctor who treated a sick family member.
Members of the brotherhood said the thoughtfulness of the Muslim family showed the multicultural character of Ceuta, a city which Morocco lays claim to along with the other enclave of Melilla.
Great! I now sugest we put crosses in mosques during Ramadam, as a way to show the "multicultural character of Ceuta".
Black prayer beads bring to mind the black flag of Islamic conquest http://www.fotw.net/flags/isl-khil.html
In Spain, of all places. Do the Spanish know their own history at all?
It's a Catholic celebration.
Nothing at all to do with islam.
Islam views their religion as false.
How stupid are they?
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.
18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."
19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"
21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm-tree: She cried (in her anguish): "Ah! would that I had died before this! would that I had been a thing forgotten and out of sight!"
24. But (a voice) cried to her from beneath the (palm-tree): "Grieve not! for thy Lord hath provided a rivulet beneath thee;
25. "And shake towards thyself the trunk of the palm-tree: It will let fall fresh ripe dates upon thee.
26. "So eat and drink and cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see any man, say, 'I have vowed a fast to ((Allah)) Most Gracious, and this day will I enter into not talk with any human being'"
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. "O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?"
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
34. Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
36. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: Him therefore serve ye: this is a Way that is straight.
37. But the sects differ among themselves: and woe to the unbelievers because of the (coming) Judgment of a Momentous Day!
38. How plainly will they see and hear, the Day that they will appear before Us! but the unjust today are in error manifest!
39. But warn them of the Day of Distress, when the matter will be determined: for (behold,) they are negligent and they do not believe!
40. It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.
Al-quran, chapter mary,
NOW TELL ME WAS MARY A MUSLIM OR A CHRISTIAN?
Abdullah.
Answer to your question... Christian.
Who cares what the pedophile, failed merchant turn warlord wrote in his manifesto to inspire the cannon fodder he used in his conquests.
After all Hitler, Stalin, Mao and all the other tyrant had their writtings too.
Abdullah: The answer to your question is: neither.
Mary was JEWISH!
Sencit,
You are correct, Mary is Jewish, but still the mother of the Christ.
ceuta is not spainish mainland, lets get this straight. it is in north africa, morocco to be exact. that place should never be a litmus test on islamic christian relations as it has always been a pretty screwed up place. its a stepping stone from western civilisation to the wilds of an agressive islamic country. the local men sell hash hish to tourists, harrass the blonde women and try and sell you dodgy cd's.
as for being a multi-cultural enclave? thats just a made up name so the spanish dont feel guilty about colonising another country whilst at the same time criticising america for invading iraq.
note to self: next time you visit morocco via ceuta, lets hope its in a british army tank! (those armed robbers owe me 100 pounds!)
Mary ain't no Muslim whatever Muhammed's insane ramblings proclaim!
The Qu'ran is a collection of delusional ravings by a 7th century Arabian paranoid psycho.
Ha-ha, Abdallah, you dupe!
Poor Abdeluded. Thanks for the passage above because you've just proven that not only was Muhammad a thief, a pervert and a liar, he was also a plagiarist. Did the guy not have an original idea in his head? You can find most of that line of thought in the New Testament, which came about WAY before your "prophet" was even born.
And I guess if Mary was really a Muslim she wouldn't have appeared to Juan Diego, in what is now Mexico, back in the 1530's, in a picture like this.
http://www.sancta.org/cgi/display.nor?image=imagen_pic_300w.jpg
Maybe that's what Muslims are really afraid of, that Islam will be crushed by God's power through a woman. Makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up, don't it?
Abdullah, Easter is the Christian celebration of the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Since the Muslim Isa neither died, nor was resurrected, Islam has NOTHING to do with Easter:
004.156
YUSUFALI: That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
PICKTHAL: And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
SHAKIR: And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.
Since the Qur'an says that this is a "grave false charge.. a tremendous (grievous) calumny..." against Mary, please get your own religion straight, and stay out of our celebrations which should be an abomination to you.
Also, a little homework for you. I challenge you to find evidence of a pre-Quranic manuscript (fragmentary or otherwise) of the Jewish scriptures that support the Islamic traditions where they are discrepant with the Qur'an.
Oh, and for you, Naseem:
004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian said that Jesus traveled to India and died at 120 years of age and is buried at Khanyar Street, Srinagar.
Doesn't quite jive with the Qur'an, huh?
This "we are all the same" attitude is just wrong. (I'm not referring to our shared humanity.)
Christian does not equal Muslim. The Virgin Mary would not have used Muslim prayer beads (if she used any at all).
Catholics do not say the Rosary using Muslim prayer beads because they are not Muslims.
Keeping a Christian tradition fully Christian has nothing to do with any other religion. Diluting it for the sake of multiculturalism is... (Someone else can fill in the blanks, I'm too exasperated.)
Actually, the Blessed Mother did use Rosary beads when she appeared to the three children at Fatima in 1917. And what Muslims don't understand is that as Padre Pio said, the Rosary is THE weapon. Now the Blessed Mother loves all her children, including Muslims, but she is not echumenical. She is not PC and will not go along with the establishment of a world Caliphate relegating her beloved Son to a mere Islamic prophet. She came to earth so many times in order to remind us to honor her Son as ture God and true man. And being ever virginand a mother, she is not likely to take kindly to the way Muslims treat sex and little kids.
I'm surprised there wasn't an earthquake or something.
"Diluting it for the sake of multiculturalism is..."
I believe the word you are searching for is
... blasphemy.
Galatians 1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed.
Sharing religious holy days, or symbols of those feasts, is not really necessary. Respect IS necessary, which is lacking in so much of the Muslim world, as Christians attempt to celebrate Christmas or Easter in public way with a procession. I await, with sadness and a sense of inevitably, news of Muslims bombings of churches and killing of priests or parishioners as Easter is being celebrated throughout the world. This violence happens every Easter and Christmas, in more places and with more bloodshed as the years go by. In the meantime, as an American, I would be happy to know that Muslims were TRULY celebrating our secular holiday, July 4th, symbol of the birth of our country and its ideals. I would like to know that Muslims turn out in large numbers to attend parades (to salute current and past US military members) listen to speeches given by George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, and enjoy patriotic music and fireworks. That would be enough for me..I can celebrate Easter with my family in my church.
Abdullah,
Here is a text, discovered c. 2007.
1 Thus spoke to Lord to Mary:
They will write write falsehoods and lies about you.
2 A man of iniquity, who once was a christian, but like Judas was not content to serve the Lord,
3 And would instead make himself a god to his people, will pretend to praise you.
4 But he will have only bitterness in his heart towards your offspring,
5 Whom he will try to tear from his Rightful Throne,
and whose followers he will strike with the sword.
6 But the truth will be preserved, and the witness of the scripture will be validated:
7 for all generations will truly call you blessed.
Abdullah, anyone can write crap in that sounds like a holy text. Your little scribe Muhammad would never have known the name of Mary had he not the Gospels to plagiarize from. You'd be better advised to submit to my little invention above.
Yes, Mary was Jewish, without any doubt.
Abdullah, why would mulims want to participate in a celebration of Jesus' resurrection, which your scribe denied? By participating in that parade they are acknowledging Christ's divinity.
Somebody better let them know.
Abdullah,
As most posters have noted: Jesus Christ was Jewish, as was his Mother. His followers are Christian. The Arabian barbarians followed the barbarian war-lord Mohammed, hence, you are Mohammedans. That was a Big Mistake.
It's extraordinary that you still can't see that Love is mightier than Hate, Good more powerful than Evil. Oh well, Mohammedans enjoy believing they are patient - that they can out-wait those of us who share the Judeo-Christian tradition. Truth is, we have been here far longer than you and we will outlast you. Good will triumph and the evil you have perpetrated under your war-lord's foot will be vanquished. Mohammedans will eventually be brought to the Light. The kind spirit of the Virgin Mary will be central to bringing the lost souls of the damned Mohammed around to the Light. You will be throughly conquered by a gentle woman. Justice and Truth will prevail. Christ has risen. Salvation is at hand. Choose wisely and save yourself. Choose love. Abjure hate.
NOW TELL ME WAS MARY A MUSLIM OR A CHRISTIAN?
She was a jewish girl. She gave birth to the Savior.
Your book is total B.S. Old mo took from the Torah and the Bible, forced a jew to write his qur'an, so of course it will have influence from the Bible.
LOL
the always loser abdeluded doesn't even understand that admitting muslims to such prayers is just blasphemy on their side, they are admitting and celebrating that jesus resurrected, denying their shitty book in the first place.
What a laugh!
"Black prayer beads", what better color for the RoP® Black beads for black hearts.
Folks, Mary was neither Christian or Muslim but Jewish. This is an HISTORIC FACT that cannot be disputed. Mary and Joseph were Jewish, the apostles were Jewish as well as most important, Jesus was Jewish. This also included the first Christians. When I see a poster say that Mary was Muslim, I have to end up scratching my head. Get the facts straight please. Thank-you.
Adullah, please check your facts, the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus is Jewish. Thank-you.
For all the Christian posters who post on JW/DW, my best wishes for a Blessed Happy Easter. May the Risen Christ bless and keep in His loving care both you and your dear ones.
Adullah,
This weekend Christian around the world will celibrate Jesus Christ's victory over death in His resurection from the dead. Many people will be coming to faith in Christ this weekend. Even Christ's Divine Mercy is offered to you. May you accept this wonderful gift. Peace.
Let us rejoice with Mary, the holy virgin mother of the savior Jesus who rosed from the dead
John 20:1-9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
John 20
The Empty Tomb
" 1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)"
A Blessed Easter to the staff and posters of JW/DW.
Bigcatgirl13106
Abdullah,
I leave you with the words of a popular hymn which is appropriate for Easter weekend:
"There is a redeemer
Jesus God's own son
Precious lamb of God, Messiah
Holy one
Thank you oh my Father
For giving us your Son
And leaving your Spirit till
You're work on earth is done"
No matter what you or your prophet assert, He came down here, He paid the price, and He rose and defeated the force of evil, for us. I hope you realize the truth, and that the truth sets you free from this bondage you are currently in.
God Bless,
M. Ram (aka wrathofasma)
The song, "He's Alive", by Don Fransico website.
http://songoffaith.com/mp3s/Albums/HesAlive/HA_HesAlive_DonFrancisco.mp3
Notice what the Quran calls Mary? "O sister of Aaron!" WTF??? Could Mohammed not even plagarize correctly?
I am shocked at the disgusting filth you people have been busy writting. Accusing maryam(as) of being an ape, I seek refuge in Allah for her from your perverted lies. She bowed and fell prostrate before her lord as a Muslim so did her son, massiah Isa.
As for your other silly but bemusing lie against the seal of prophets, muhammad(pbuh), that he copied the old and new books. There was no need for that as the revelation he received from his Lord confirmed the truth his brothers before him were sent with and renew the revelations altered by the apes and pigs. HAD THE PIGS AND APES NOT TAMPERED WITH ALLAH'S REVELATION AND PERSECUTED THE MESSENGERS, THE QURAN AND THE INJEEL AND THE TAORAH WOULD HAVE BEEN EXACTLY IDENTICAL BECAUSE ALL CAME DOWN FROM THE SAME ONE ALLAH.
Jesus is the Holy Lamb of God
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6xvtdx33Eg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZglfbdjrH0
bigcatgirl13106,
Love that album. I have it and lots more.
Where is our Pope??!! Where are the bishops, the cardinals, and the priests? Why do they allow this to continue? Why isn't more coming from these people as for news about how many of our fellow Catholics - and other Christians of other denominations - being tortured and killed? Why is it that all we hear from these groups is how they bend over backwards to appease the muslims while knowing they continually lob bombs into israel and kill our fellow Christians?! And then the most sickening part is when I see a priest and a rabbi sitting with somekind of a muslim cleric - giving creedence to islam as being part of the other two religions - while there is nothing that ties islam to them other than their little prophet trying to throw in some scripture so as to convert the jews. he was an illiterate pagan.
their appeasement of these muslims just makes matters worse because it just emboldens them to do more things like this, all the while killing us if we say something bad about their cult of death.
interestinconundrum,
Thank-you and God Bless you on Resurection Sunday for your wonderful posts.
Abdullah,
"I am shocked at the disgusting filth you people have been busy writting. Accusing maryam(as) of being an ape, I seek refuge in Allah for her from your perverted lies. She bowed and fell prostrate before her lord as a Muslim so did her son, massiah Isa.
As for your other silly but bemusing lie against the seal of prophets, muhammad(pbuh), that he copied the old and new books. There was no need for that as the revelation he received from his Lord confirmed the truth his brothers before him were sent with and renew the revelations altered by the apes and pigs. HAD THE PIGS AND APES NOT TAMPERED WITH ALLAH'S REVELATION AND PERSECUTED THE MESSENGERS, THE QURAN AND THE INJEEL AND THE TAORAH WOULD HAVE BEEN EXACTLY IDENTICAL BECAUSE ALL CAME DOWN FROM THE SAME ONE ALLAH."
Abdullah, I am very SUPRISED that you would post an accusation that is NOT TRUE. What has been posted is the HISTORIC TRUTH that cannot be denied. The Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and my spiritual mother was raised Jewish and lived as a Jewish person, even when she became the first REAL Christian in the Christian community of the apostles of Jesus, who like the apostles was raised Jewish even though He is the Son of God. This Bible history is NOT ONLY IS CORRECT, but also TRUE.
Frankly, I am very shocked that you would used the same name calling to the BVM and to Jesus because the TRUTH cannot be denied. May the Divine Mercy of Risen Savior Jesus have mercy on you.
Abdullah,
We come to one of the little contradictions in Islam here, don't we? The revelations received by Jesus, Moses et al. were EXACTLY the same as the revelations received by Mohammed? You mean they received them in Arabic? Or in Hebrew and Aramaic? If in Arabic, then why would Allah try and communicate in Arabic to people who did not speak that language. He surely cannot be that stupid. If in Hebrew and Aramaic, then in what language is the Quran inscribed on those tablets in heaven? Is Arabic simply the language of Allah's last revelation? So why is it maintained that the Quran cannot be translated? Did Allah use other languages himself in his revelations? If so, why does Arabic enjoy any special status when it seems that his message can be communicated in all languages (Allah sent messengers to all nations, is, I believe, the official line)? If Arabic is uniquely suited to communicating his message (or rather Arabic, Qureish dialect, 6th/7th century AD), then why even bother trying to communicate his message to other peoples? But surely Allah should be able to express himself correctly and precisely in any language. Perhaps we could clear away the contradictions by saying that the Quran is indeed inscribed in Arabic on those tablets and that it is the one true genuine language of revelation. On this assumption we can then say that the reason other messages became corrupted was that the revelations in other languages were poorely translated by Allah and that the native speakers of those languages were not entirely sure what he was saying. Thus we have explained both the supremacy of Arabic and the reason for corruption of the revelations by other peoples. Allah did not speak good Hebrew or Aramaic. But somehow that does not seem right either. Please reconcile the supremacy of Arabic as a language PER SE, with the fact that Allah must have revealed his message perfectly in many other languages, from which it follows that his message can be translated into other languages. I think we either have to assume that the Quran can be expressed in any language, that is translated, not just an 'explanation of the meaning,' or that Allah tried to communicate to everyone in Arabic... And then there are those tablets again. In Arabic? Chinese? Xhosa? Hopi, perhaps? Please clarify.
Mary was the first one to carry the Gospel.
http://www.wrensworld.com/marydiduknow.htm
interestinconundrum,
Thank-you for both these wonderful videos. Brought tears to my eyes. A Blessed Happy Easter.
bigcatgirl13106,
Bless you on this resurrection Sunday. These days the season is becoming more and more precious to me.
Soon and very soon...
H"AD THE PIGS AND APES NOT TAMPERED WITH ALLAH'S REVELATION AND PERSECUTED THE MESSENGERS, THE QURAN AND THE INJEEL AND THE TAORAH WOULD HAVE BEEN EXACTLY IDENTICAL BECAUSE ALL CAME DOWN FROM THE SAME ONE ALLAH."
Posted by: Abdullah
Really?? Where's the proof? Were the Jews so efficient at hiding all copies of the Taurat while they were busily evolving back from monkeys? Did they hide them in banana skins? Where's your proof, Abdullah? What about the "pigs", Abdullah? Christianity didn't even start until 33CE. Did they evolve back into human form in 600 years with NO HISTORIAN noticing? And manage to hide all copies of the Injeel and distribute tens of thousands of manuscripts with 97-99% scribal accuracy while walking around on all fours with cloven hooves?
There is not one scrap of parchment, not one inscription that validates the Qur'an on any point discrepant with copies of the Jewish scriptures from antiquity.
Before Ibn Hazm, it wasn't even fashionable for Muslims to claim the JudaeoChristian texts were tahrif (corrupted), just misinterpreted (read Sahih Bukhari). Did you know that, Abdullah?
Sure, get mad, Abdullah. TYPE IN SCARY CAPITAL LETTERS!!! Or maybe instead you could use your brain and think it through.
Allah is fake.
Mohammad was a conscious fraud.
AND MARY WAS A JEW. JESUS WAS A JEW. DAVID WAS A JEW. MOSES WAS A JEW. ALL OF THE PROPHETS WERE JEWS.
From another source...(don't ask)
Another interesting historical glitch occurs when Allah erroneously calls Mary the sister of Aaron in surah 19:28, and the daughter of Imran (the Biblical Amran) in 66:12. While Miriam and Mary are the same name, the first Miriam, the sister of Aaron and the daughter of Amran, died 1500 years before Mary, the mother of Yahshua, was born. (18:28; 66:12; 20:25-30) Hearing Muslims explain away the spectacular coincidence that both Mary and Miriam had a brother named Aaron and a father named Amram sounds identical to the way Catholics perform etymological gymnastics to explain away the fourteen Bible passages that clearly state Mary had other children.
Another difficult passage concerns Haman. In the Qur'an he is a servant of Pharaoh and built a high tower to ascend up to the God of Moses (surah 28:38; 29:38; 40:25,38). Yet the Babel tower dates 750 years earlier and is Babylonian, not Egyptian. The name Haman is brought to us by Esther. She writes about what became Persia 1,100 years after Pharaoh. While Muslim apologists say it is simply another Haman, the name is not Egyptian, but uniquely Babylonian.
Surah 17:1 claims Muhammad went to the "farthest mosque" during his Night’s Journey. Consistent with the Hadith, Muslims believe this was the either the Jewish Temple or the Dome of the Rock, in Jerusalem. But neither existed in 620 A.D. The last Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D., and the Dome of the Rock was not built until 691, 59 years after Muhammad’s death! There are a host of other chronological breakdowns. One of my favorites is Allah’s insistence that Nimrod was a contemporary of Abraham.
This ignorance of history and earlier Scripture speaks of a certain isolationism, which one would expect if the stories had been transmitted orally in an environment distant from that in which they originated. Although Muslims attempt to talk their way out of Mary being called a brother of Aaron, the misplaced and mistimed tower of Babel, and Samaritans at the time of Moses, they just throw in the towel without a fight and proclaim world history wrong when it comes to crucifixion
Sorry about the Catholic reference, meant to edit that bit.
Ibn Kathir writes:
Mujahid. Ash-Sha'bi, Al-Hassan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi' bin Anas said that,
means, "They alter (Allah's Words)."
Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn 'Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves."
Then,
As for Allah's books, THEY ARE STILL PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED." Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement ... (Tafsir Ibn Kathir – Abridged, Volume 2, Parts 3, 4 & 5, Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, verse 147 [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 196; online edition; bold and capital emphasis ours)
Ibn Kathir also wrote regarding surah 33:6:
This ruling, which is that those who are blood relatives have closer personal ties to one another, is a ruling which Allah has decreed and which is written in the First Book WHICH CANNOT BE ALTERED OR CHANGED. This is the view of Mujahid and others. (This is the case) even though Allah legislated something different at certain times, and there is wisdom behind this, for He knew that this would be abrogated and the original ruling that was instituted an eternity ago would prevail, and this is His universal and legislative decree. And Allah knows best. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Abridged (Surat An-Nur to Surat Al-Ahzab, Verse 50) [Darussalam, first edition, August 2000], pp. 643-644; online edition; bold and capital emphasis ours)
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Bible/ibnabbas.html
Everytime I refute a false statement attributed to Islam, out comes another even more stupid false statement. Bring your evidence o! people of the book! By Allah you have errored from the way of Abraham and his monotheism. The majority of you are faasiquun (given to wrong-doing) but I hope there are some among you who are open minded to the truth...
Just for you Abdullah (a mirror to see yourself in, cut and pasted from today's Frontpage symposium)
Let me start with Allah himself -- who in Muslim eyes is regarded as the greatest schemer and truth dodger of all time. Contrary to the other monotheistic gods he can be his own opposite, meaning he can be simultaneously one and non-one, true and untrue, eternal and worldly as well as represent all other thinkable and unthinkable contradictions He, therefore, must claim to be the time itself and to create the world every moment anew in order to control it. As time is a dimension only existing in human consciousness, Allah must conform to human thinking and is, therefore, not almighty but arbitrary. As a technical construction he only concedes constructions which are compatible with the interaction between his base - the community - and his superstructure - the QH complex (Koran and tradition). The very irony of the matter lies in the fact that it was the Jewish thinker Gersonides who unwittingly detected the philosophical and logical groundwork of this constellation.
The obvious closeness between Allah as technical speculation and its Marxist touch on one hand as well as the post-modern atheistic destructionism on the other can explain partially why the family similarity inside the "dialogue" is growing dynamically, especially in Europe. As Islamic "science" is confined to Allah’s conditions, it is as arbitrary as his overall super-function as truth dodger who in turn legitimizes every Muslim to declare any piece of assumed knowledge to be the "truth" as long as it may be - however stretched - connected to the QH complex.
One of the best examples so far is the "ape" symbol which isolates the Jews from the human "race" and lets them loose for free personal disposal. Contrary to the Western principle of science, which is supposed to elevate the discourse to the level of independent theory and violence-free, tolerant explaining power, Islamic "science" cannot be separated from ideological dominance and political power, including violence. Insofar as Western "evolution theory" is dependent on proof, however scarce, e Islamic "evolution" is a gift from Allah, i.e. arbitrary and opportunistic interpretation of Muslim man, using the comprehensive repression and killing licences granted by the QH complex.
So, whenever you ask a Muslim believer if Jews stem directly from apes you will get - in most cases - an affirmative answer because there is no other dimension of thinking than the one set and limited by the QH complex. As Islamic logic and reality in turn are shaped by this complex, non-Islamic logics and realities must come from other, most despicable dimensions of "thinking" like those of apes, pigs, dogs and, ultimately, "Satan". The basic "logic" behind this is, of course, the archaic legitimization to kill and destroy this un-Islamic counter-world and its subhuman representatives whose most provocative species are the Jews. As long as Islam was in unquestioned power in previous centuries, this subject did not play too great a part until Western civilization proved increasingly predominant and started "provoking Islamic feeling", thereby radicalizing its inbuilt violence concept which in turn does not contain any room for compromise.
On this basis you may ask questions of your quality but you will not get answers which comply with standards of Western logic. Neither is there an answer to the question how long it took until Jews mutated into apes or vice versa nor is there any explanation as to whether and when one's grandmother may still have been an ape or have already arrived at this stage or may be in some transitory stage which will be completed in, say, 3.56 generations. Your remark on "scientists" possibly observing this mutation process is a typically Western one because it presupposes the ability to assume an outer-Islamic thinking sphere which does simply not exist. This deficit, however, contains a somewhat aesthetic side aspect. While we normally regard these questions from a satirical point of view, you will find in Islam many people - even full-scale theologians - who elaborate quite seriously on this because they are confined to an alternative-free, one-way road of interpreting their "reality". This again, mind you, is created continuously by Allah who as greatest truth dodger of all time is not only entitled but obliged to deceive all non-Muslims and to call all believers for support in this super-historical task.
-Peter Raddatz
Abdullah,
The Hebrew Bible existed a thousand years before the Koran. The Christian Bible, still five hundred years prior to the Koran, claims to extend Revelation without abrogating what came before. They belong to a single tradition.
Now, Muhammad, having not been respected by the Jewish and Christian sects he sought to bamboozle, did what such people have always done: he made up his own religion. And to get back at those people who didn't accept his megalomania, he denied and twisted everything that came before, and set down a new work so that all his captured or hoodwinked minions would know that truth comes not from God or Tradition or rationality or the human heart but only from Mr. Muhammad himself.
So the Koran is not part of tradition. It is an outlier, an invention, a medieval Dianetics whose major point is the aggrandizement of the role of its author, your bellicose scribe.
You believe this Koran, this late invention, only because of your gullibility and perhaps some misguided sense of tribal loyalty. There is no "road to emmaus" for the Koran; it is not validated by any rational interpretation of the texts before.
In what other case would you take a comtemporary source (the Gospels) and say they present less reliable accounts of Mary and Jesus than a source that came six hundred years later (Koran)? Pure, witless superstition.
Corrected post (with apologies):
Ibn Kathir writes:
Mujahid. Ash-Sha'bi, Al-Hassan, Qatadah and Ar-Rabi' bin Anas said that,
who distort the Book with their tongues.
means, "They alter (Allah's Words)."
Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn 'Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah's creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves."
Then,
they say: "This is from Allah," but it is not from Allah;
As for Allah's books, THEY ARE STILL PRESERVED AND CANNOT BE CHANGED." Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement ... (Tafsir Ibn Kathir – Abridged, Volume 2, Parts 3, 4 & 5, Surat Al-Baqarah, Verse 253, to Surat An-Nisa, verse 147 [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, Lahore; First Edition: March 2000], p. 196; online edition; bold and capital emphasis ours)
Ibn Kathir also wrote regarding surah 33:6:
This has been written in the Book.
This ruling, which is that those who are blood relatives have closer personal ties to one another, is a ruling which Allah has decreed and which is written in the First Book WHICH CANNOT BE ALTERED OR CHANGED. This is the view of Mujahid and others. (This is the case) even though Allah legislated something different at certain times, and there is wisdom behind this, for He knew that this would be abrogated and the original ruling that was instituted an eternity ago would prevail, and this is His universal and legislative decree. And Allah knows best. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Abridged (Surat An-Nur to Surat Al-Ahzab, Verse 50) [Darussalam, first edition, August 2000], pp. 643-644; online edition; bold and capital emphasis ours)
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Quran/Bible/ibnabbas.html
"I am shocked at the disgusting filth you people have been busy writting. Accusing maryam(as) of being an ape"
I am shocked by the fact that you adore a pedophile, but what can i do, except treating you like a subhuman like you deserve?
The only apes on this planet are the muslims, look at amahdenejad! Everytime he's on TV, my mother thinks it's from the planet of the apes.
"Everytime I refute a false statement attributed to Islam, out comes another even more stupid false statement. "
the only false statement about islam written on this site is that it's a religion. In reality it's a mass psychosis for mentally challenged people. That's a true statement
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Islam-History-Channel-Hufnail/dp/B00007J89E
I just watched the History Channel's documentary called "Inside Islam". In my view this was a PC infommecial and the definition of dimmitude. How many people have channel surfed to this piece of garbage I wonder?
In summary, all the real smart university professors guarantee Islam is a religion of peace, and we can all go to sleep rest assured that our Muslim neighbors are good. They brought us wonderful advances in Algebra, Natural Science, Medicine, and allowed women freedom to inherit and vote hundreds of years before the West. Apparently, a few bad ones (just in the last few years) are being unfairly accused in today's MSM giving Islam a bad name. This is the "History Channel" after all. Maybe you guys have just been jerking my chain. They said nothing about world Islamization being a core objective in the Koran, or that the messenger Mohammed dreamed up his revelations to support his obsession for terror, women, riches, and power. Guess some of those other things I've been reading are way off base. Shhhhhhewww (wiping forehead).
This is a film that I would not recommend to the general public but can be useful to those wanting to know more about.....
Dhimmitude; is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued"
And........
Al-Tekeya; The Islamic principle of lying for the sake of Allah.
This was a shameful display of PC in it's worst form by the History Channel. Now I have to question all those films I've viewed produced by them.
The posters above who, in attempting to refute Abdullah's claim that Mary was Muslim, say that Mary was in fact Jewish, fail to note that in Islam the two categories (Muslim and Jewish) are not necessarily mutually exclusive, since they consider many Jews of Old Testament history (Adam, Moses, Abraham, etc.) to be Muslims -- since in the Muslim mind (deformed by the Qur'an) Yahweh was in fact Allah, although only a select few from among the people to whom He revealed himself obeyed Him.
So to the more informed Muslim (unlike Abdullah who seems to be rather obtuse), Mary was a Jew who also happened to be a Muslim (i.e., she submitted herself to Allah). Thus, simply refuting the Muslim claim that Mary was Muslim by saying "No, Mary was Jewish", will not be a sufficient refutation.
From the Ibn Kathir quote above --
"However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves."
Apparently, what Ibn Kathir seems to be arguing is that the "Book" of the Jews and Christians
1) cannot ever be changed
2) was "added to" with false interpretations.
What this must mean concretely is that
a) There was a physical book that was the perfect word of Allah.
b) Over time, deceiving and/or ignorant Jews (and later Christians) actually added false portions to it -- which I suppose could mean they added not only false whole books and chapters, but perhaps also added false verses.
The "false addition" process of (b) above must, in turn, mean that the Jewish/Christian perverters of the Book literally
i) appended whole books and or chapters,
and/or
ii) interpolated false verses in and among the eternally perfect and unchangeable true verses.
The process of (ii) above could only be concretely done through scribal copying of manuscripts -- i.e., a Jewish/Christian perverter would literally sit down with the perfect manuscript, take out a blank papyrus (or goat-hide, or whatever), copy the perfect manuscript like a dutiful scribe would, but while doing so would (because he wickedly wants to pervert the meaning) actually insert false verses in and among the true ones.
Bottom Line:
The logic of this Islamic idea of a Jewish/Christian tradition of perverting the unchangeable perfect Book must therefore mean that in the actual corpus of the existing holy Books of the Jews and Christians, the original true Islamic Book can be reconstructed, by simply winnowing away the false verses, false chapters, and false books that were "added" on.
So let's see some Muslim scholars perform this reconstruction. It should not be impossible -- since again Ibn Kathir explicitly says that the original Book cannot be changed, only added to.
For our little friend Abdullah and our other silent muslim readers...
From the book, "GLAD NEWS! GOD LOVES YOU, MY MUSLIM FRIEND" by Samy Tanagho
From the chapter titled 'Was the Bible Altered, as Some Muslims Claim?'.....
"Those who had embraced Christianity in Asia, Africa, and Europe had no common language. The Bible was circulating in many different languages around the world. This would make any attempt tto falsify the Holy Scriptures impossible, and comparisons of these Bible translations in the various lannguages reveal complete accuracy of the Bible text.
AN IMPOSSIBLE CONSPRACY
It is not rational to suppose that Christians and Jews throughout the world could meet and agree on alterations of their Holy Scripture. History shows that Jews and Christians have had major doctrinal differences between them, and they have been in disagreement regarding many religious issues. (See Surah 2:113)
We also read in many verses Qur'an (such as in Surah 3:19 and Surah 98:4) that Christians were divided into sects. so if the Scriptures had been changed to alter doctrine, at least one of the many sects that existed within Judaism or Christianity at that time would have protested. Yet there is no historical mention oof ant such accusation or dissension.
By the time Muhhammad lived, Judaism and Christianity had spread throughout the world. Therefore, it would have been impossible for anyone or any group to collect all the Holy Books, manuscripts, and writings containing Scriptual references from all the churches, synagogues, schools, libraries, and homes to make the changes. Then the replacements would have had to be returned withhout detection. How could everyone who had a Bible be convinced to exchange it foor a revised (corrupted) version, and yet leave no evidence of such a monumental feat?
HOW COULD IT POSSIBLY BENEFIT THE JEWS OR THE CHRISTIANS TO CORRUPT HOLY SCRIPTURES?
....Some Muslims claim the Bible may have contained prophecies related to Muhhamad and that they were deleted. Where is the evidence? If such prophecies were originally found in the Bible, Christians and Jews would have acknowledged Muhammad. They would have followed him and benefited by sharing in the spoils given to muuslims at the conquests of Persia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, and many other lands.
....Contrary to any prophecies oof Muhhamad, over 300 prophecies of God's expected Messiah (the One to save people froom their sins) were all fullfilled by Jesus."
***********************************************************
So, you see Abdullah, God is a loving God and wants to have a relationship with his creation, not a 5 times a day bow-down in fear. He sent his Son to absolve you of your sins, too. Read the Bible.....there's a reason they're so afraid of it in the cradle of islam, Saudi Arabia. It is the truth and in your heart you will feel it. Jesus NEVER said to kill another human being or to strike fear or smite necks, etc. He said to love your neighbor as yourself (NO DISTINCTION OF RACE OR RELIGION)and to love God with all your heart. Anything kind and compassionate in islam stems from the True God of the Bible. Christians follow the teachings of Jesus who was Jewish and never was a muslim, no matter what the koran says. Islam is a religion based on lies.
Abdullah,
"Everytime I refute a false statement attributed to Islam, out comes another even more stupid false statement. Bring your evidence o! people of the book! By Allah you have errored from the way of Abraham and his monotheism. The majority of you are faasiquun (given to wrong-doing) but I hope there are some among you who are open minded to the truth..."
Why don't you simply give up trying to argue with the posters and instead respect the right of non-Muslims not to agree with you and respect their positions please. Thank-you.
Abdullah,
Consider the truth that God is a loving God and wants relationship with His children.
"Thus, simply refuting the Muslim claim that Mary was Muslim by saying "No, Mary was Jewish", will not be a sufficient refutation."
remote_control,
Points above included:
1) Extant manuscript evidence corroborates the transmitted JudaeoChristian texts still in use today; there is no evidence of an Islamic vorlage (sans "false interpolations") of the Qur'an prior to the 7th century where it deviates from the JudaeoChristian texts.
2) Islam did not exist before the 7th century.
2) Mary was Jewish in the sense that term has always been applied.
Respectfully, can you then show us a better way, rather than leaving Abdullah a prefabricated reasoned argument?
Bollox
Mary was an Anglican!
"Thus, simply refuting the Muslim claim that Mary was Muslim by saying "No, Mary was Jewish", will not be a sufficient refutation."
Thanks remote control. Okay Abdullah .. explain this: Why is it that people who identify themselves as Christians and Jews are progressive and those who identify themselves as Muslims are regressive?
ConcernedCitizen,
The Muslim claim that Mary (and a select number of others of Biblical history) was a Muslim is both
1) a claim without sufficient evidence
2) a claim that is not logically impossible.
To amplify #1, not only is it without sufficient evidence, but it requires a good deal of fantastic supposition and highly unlikely and suspiciously gymnastic scenarios.
But, per #2, it is not necessarily impossible. Again, to be "a Muslim" does not necessarily require a post-Mohammed, post-Qur'an situation: it simply requires a properly Islamic submission to Allah, so if Yahweh was Allah and he gave his "Guidance" (i.e., Book) to the people we think of as the proto-Israelites (and/or the Israelites), then the few among them who were obedient to that Guidance are "Muslims" properly speaking, and the many that were disobedient to that Guidance are the "wicked Jews" (whose elite classes subsequently went about "adding to" the perfect and unchangeable Book in order to fashion a "corrupted" Book (see my other post above about some problems stemming from this theory)).
I still must protest that
"2) a claim that is not logically impossible."
inclusive of
"it simply requires a properly Islamic submission to Allah"
is untenable.
You could similarly reformat that such that Mary was British and properly submissive to the pre-incarnate Queen, or a treefrog, etc. It is only logically possible divorced from the reality of the admitted lack of evidence. Merely retrospectively applying a transplanted label does not make a thing logically possible, and avoids the burden of proof.
The (Polish) nuns who taught me catechism in the 1950's, taught us that Mary was certainly Jewish, but that in heaven she spoke Polish because it is such a beautiful language.
Wesolego Alleluia!
"HAD THE PIGS AND APES NOT TAMPERED WITH ALLAH'S REVELATION AND PERSECUTED THE MESSENGERS, THE QURAN AND THE INJEEL AND THE TAORAH WOULD HAVE BEEN EXACTLY IDENTICAL BECAUSE ALL CAME DOWN FROM THE SAME ONE ALLAH."
A ridiculous assertion, based on, as Raddatz would put it, the QH complex. However, taking it at face value, Mary would have had to have been submissive to the consistently revealed will of Allah to have been a "Muslim". Aside from naked assertion, where is the evidence that she deviated from the centuries of "corrupted" practices of her contemporary Jewry, and followed practices that we now know as Islamic from the Qur'an?
There are no such things as "Muslim prayer beads".
They are "worry beads".
Used by nervous Mohammedans for repeating the 99 names of Allah to calm themselves, not to recite "prayers" of devotion.
The Names:
1. al-Schmuck.
2. al-Putz.
3. al-Knucklehead.
4. al-Doofus.
5. al-Dork.
6. al-Buffoon.
7. al-Schlemeil.
8. al-Goatbreath
9. al-Oxbrain
(et al)
pigs and apes?
not only was the koran written by an immature illiterate, but he was also a paedophile.
abdullah, you have no place in british society, hope you have your bags packed 'cos when our boys take control of the government in the next couple of years you will be on the first flight home.
enjoy your stay while you can, but please don't molest our children before you leave.
Abdullah,
take your meds already!
Can someone remind why this is an evil deed again?
Im wondering what would have been the reaction on this site had the Muslim family refused a request to include the prayer beads in the procession.
Mohamed was illiterate, and wasnt able to take notes from the Rabbis teaching him. It is like going to University and not paying attention properly, one tends to fill in the gaps.
That is why he is so mixed up in his Bible history.
Islam is one of the world's most made up religions.
This is how it starts...start blending all the symbols together and pretty soon, nobody knows what they believe anymore.
Turner,
Your answer is in sheiknbake4pork's post. It's wrong on both sides. Allah is not to be associated with any partners (explicitly and frequently denies that Jesus is God's son), denies the crucifixion, the resurrection, etc. If you read Mark Durie's Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God, it will be evident that despite the Islamic attempt at appropriation of the JudaeoChristian traditions, Allah is not Yahweh, and is antithetical in many respects. As above, these black "prayer beads" are used in recitation of the 99 names of Allah. Therefore, including a manmade diety to be honored on the rosary offends even this non-Catholic.
And on Easter yet, the day we celebrate the substitutionary atonement of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice, all aspects of which are denied by Islam. This accomodation, no matter how well meaning, is an unwelcome foreign intrusion which defiles what is best experienced as a deeply reverent time of gratitude and adoration. Minus the elements Islam denies, Easter is utterly meaningless.
Mary was Jewish....it is a historical fact...Muslims hate history, it is why they try to destroy books and schools, Muslims also hate the truth....especially when the Infidels know it...