Fitzgerald: Selling out the Serbs

Our educational system has failed miserably ... giving us Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton, and Bush 2 ... from fellow man of the cloth (Carter about Khomeini) to a religion of peace (Bush 2 on Islam) ... how else can our idiotic policies in the Middle East be explained ... and our idiotic immigration policies ... and our treatment of the Serbs ... and our failure to produce an energy plan ... so on and so on.

"PRISTINA, Serbia, May 24 Kosovo's ethnic-Albanians are to erect a statue of Willy Clinton in the provincial capital of Pristina in gratitude to the former U.S. president.

Sculptor Izeir Mustafa said he was thrilled when assigned to work on the 10-foot tall statue because he is aware that Willy saved Kosovo Albanians from extermination when Serbian forces launched a military campaign in 1999 against ethnic-Albanian separatist guerrillas,

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/05/pristina-serbia-may-24-kosovos-ethnic.html

And will the elderly, preyed upon by companies buying lists identifying them as likely targets, lists compiled by Vinod Gupta's company, the same Vinod Gupta, and the same company, that have supplied the Clintons, Mr. and Mrs. Macbeth, with $2 million over the past few years, not to mention the donations made by the company, infoSystems, to several charities, one of them called, modestly, the Clinton Global Initiative, with others also containing the names of both Bill and Hillary (Lady Macbeth) Clinton. They are no doubt horrified that the details have just appeared, through the accident of a shareholder lawsuit (was this outraged shareholder possibly part of "a right-wing conspiracy" as Lady Macbeth has in the past liked to claim?

Bush and Carter may be the two worst presidents in the history of the United States. But as for sheer smiling unapologetic rapacity, has there ever been a husband-wife team like Bill and Hillary Clinton?

Hugh, I think the exact same things. Replacing oil as the energy source would put a big dent in jihadi's plans and make them do actual work for a living. Oil won't run out any time soon it seems, so oil tax is a way to go - just spell it out for everyone so they know it's coming, for instance: there'll be an extra 2 or 3% tax on oil each year for the next 20 years. And instead of pouring trillions into Iraq, build solar/wind/wave/nuclear power plans. Driving a car on electricity is already cheaper than on gas, although the car is more expensive right now (hybrid conversion is very good - the car can be plugged into wall and recharged).

As for the Serbs, it's the same old. They are trying to suck up to Islam at the expense of an ex-ally. But despite all the hard work over the past 15 years (even longer if you count the Greeks), it isn't bearing any real fruit (if you read Robert's books you'd know it can't ever bear any).

I wish you elected someone who would do you some good for a change.

From MuCullough’s John Adams:

“The Conversation turned to business. America was a great nation, declared His Excellency (Abdrahaman), but unfortunately a state of war existed between America and Tripoli. Adams questioned how that could be, given that there had been no injury, insult, or provocation on either side.”
…
“Time was critical, Adams was informed. The sooner peace was made between America and the Barbary States the better. Were a treaty delayed, it would be more difficult to make. A war between Christian and Christian was mild, a war between Muslim and Christian would be horrible.”
…
“…peace with Tripoli would cost 30,000 guineas for his employers, as His Excellency put it, plus 3,000 pounds sterling for himself… peace with all Barbary States might cost from 200,000 to 300,000 guineas.”
---------------------------

The Muslims haven’t changed, we have. Our ‘Problem of Overproduction’ has divorced a critical percentage of the electorate from the realities of life in the food chain. My explanation for our failures is that the American President is selected in a similar manner to the American Idol. Adams and Jefferson were elected by lien-free landowning males. Bush and his successor (likely singular) were elected by people, mostly Citizens, who could breathe on a mirror and create fog. The elected official is a direct reflection of the electorate. ‘Political America’ is now bankrupt and in a terminal state of underproduction, sustained for now by debt and a temporary surplus in Social Security receipts.

America Inc. on the other hand is thriving. The Saudi’s collect ~$163 Billion in oil revenues each year, which is around 1.1% of the US’s GNP. America Inc. is the 12% of Citizens who pay 88% of the taxes. These people are mobile and, as they become targeted by the electorate, will leave just as the French are leaving today. When they start to leave in numbers, things will collapse quickly. The Clinton’s just bought a piece of the Dominican Republic, right next to Oscar de la Renta’s place. Taxes in the Dominican Republic are near zero.

As water finds its new level in North America, one of the first things to go will be political correctness. Islam will be the most vulnerable due to its overt hostility to the ‘American Way’. There is a hardened core in America consisting of tens of millions.

Hugh asks: "How else can one explain the failure, over six years, to come up with an energy policy, especially one that includes much higher taxes on gasoline and government support for nuclear reactors (as in France, where nuclear energy supplies 80% of the electricity), or subsidies for solar energy (as in Germany), designed to diminish the Money Weapon?"

I can explain it. Your theory is INCOMPLETE, Hugh, because it fails to explain how we made SIMILAR mistakes in the Vietnam War, which wasn't about fighting Islam but fighting Communism. Yet the erroneous mindset was similar.

The answer is that since the advent of nuclear weapons, the U.S. has eschewed fighting total global war in favor of fighting carefully circumscribed LIMITED wars. During the Vietnam War, we continued to have diplomatic relations with the Soviet Union and continued to have arms control negotiations with them that were delinked from Vietnam. Even though the Soviet Union was constantly shipping weapons to North Vietnam to kill our troops, we never called them out on it and demanded they stop or else.

Instead, the U.S. put its faith in promoting self-determination as a selling point. Self-determination for South Vietnam. Self-determination for Iraq today.

The policy we're following in Iraq vis-a-vis the rest of the Muslim world is very similar to the policy we followed in Vietnam vis-a-vis the rest of the Communist world. And equally frustrating because it will lead to an equal disaster.

It's not only the Serb interests that have been sold to the muslims by the US State Departement. Don't forget about the betrayal of the Macedonians in their war against the albanians in 2001 or the Bosnian Croats who were pressured to enter the muslim-croat federation, which led to a significant number of Croats leaving Bosnia.

As much as Clinton was Bimbo in the Balkans, there was a beneficial end result: Moderate Muslims. This type of Muslim needs to be supported.

If you give the Albanians in Kosovo the right to secede then you must give the same right to the Serbs in Bosnia.You say Albanians do not want to be ruled by Serbs,but also Serbs in Bosnia do not want to be ruled by Muslims.
You have to apply the same standards in all of former Yugoslavia.Either you accept Tito's borders and then the Bosnian Serbs have to accept minority status as also Albanian Kosovars or you do not accept Tito's borders and then Albanian Kosovars have a right to independence as also Bosnian Serbs.
Using double standards in a anti-Serb basis creates a situation that will lead in a future war.
Either the Helsinki Act is valid and the borders in Europe do not change or it is not.

Athenian ...

I would wholeheartedly agree. Give Serbia the part of Bosnia in which Serbs are a clear majority. Also give the part of Kosovo in which Serbs are clear majority to the Serbs.

The conflicts in the Balkans are much more about ethnic hatreds that religious ones. Therefore, let the ethnic groups separate, cool off, and then establish diplomatic relations as benefits all parties.

What is to be avoided here is the attempt to turn ethnic conflicts into a Jihad-Crusade that the rest of us will have to deal with on global basis.

Personally, I am sick and tired of every single ethnic group in the Balkans. If they can't get along and insist upon bickering over every (*^&^& square meter of the place, separate them, like the petulant, brat children they all are, and give them a huge TIME OUT.

You simply cannot, however, say that it is fair that the Kosovars, whom the Serbs tried to exterminate, should be ruled by this Serb group with its "master race" crap.

At the same time, all non-Serb groups in the Balkans are so livid at the Serbs for how they behaved that the Serbs living in any other-majority area are going to need protection.

And basically, this business of Serbs destroying mosques (some 1,700 at last count) and Muslims destroying churches (some 1,400 at last count) has GOT TO STOP. Enough already.

Lone Ranger:

Reagan was no idiot. Solving one multi-generational problem is a huge accomplishment---demanding that he solve two is too much to ask.

We ultimately will defeat Jihad, and those Westerners in a post-Jihad future will criticize Robert and Hugh for allowing the Chinese, Russian, etc. problem to fester due to lack of history.

History goes on, and mankind will always be in a struggle between good and evil. Reagan's mistakes in the ME must be taken in the larger context of what he accomplished. Putting him on the same list as Carter is simply ridiculous and unfair.

We need a Reagan for our times. Someone willing to shape policy in multiple avenues (diplomatic, economic, military, etc) in a collaborative manner to achieve success.

Ouch.

Just another red flag for the area, NATO troops in the south of Kosovo will be under Turkish command soon. When does the Islamo insanity end?

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/01729.shtml

"2000 mosques destroyed"- there you have it all. The disinformation, rumor-mongering, megalomanic Muhammedan nonsense.

2000 mosques in Bosnia? Destroyed?

There shouldn't be 2000 mosques in all of Europe. There shouldn't be even 200. They don't belong there. Europe is judeo-christian land, and this madness has to be reversed.

Preposterous!

"Bosnia a land of 2000 mosques"

Are there any houses left or is every dwelling inhabited by a musulman a mosque?

From: Coalition for International Justice (CIJ) on 9 July 2003, updated 11 July 2003

Deliberate book-burning

The Bosnian National Library and the Institute for Oriental Studies were both totally destroyed from bombardment with incendiary shells. Mr Riedlmayer called the destruction of 1.5 million books (the bulk of the Library's collection) the largest single incident of deliberate book-burning in modern history. The losses at the Oriental Institute included the country's richest collection of Islamic manuscripts (5,263 codices in Arabic, Ottoman Turkish, Persian and Bosnian), many of them unique, the products of five centuries of Bosnian Muslim cultural history.

As a result of his study, Mr Riedlmayer concluded that the Bosnian Serb destruction of Islamic and Catholic cultural and religious heritage sites was intentional and systematic. The damage to these monuments was clearly the result of attacks directed against them, rather than incidental to the fighting. As evidence, Mr Riedlmayer cited blast damage showing explosives had been placed inside the buildings, the lack of damage to surrounding buildings, the absence of bullet holes, the absence of fighting in the area, and the fact that in a number of towns the destruction took place while the areas were under the control of Serb forces.

The likely intent of destroying the cultural and religious heritage of a people, he said, was reflected in a comment by Simo Drljaca, Bosnian Serb police chief in the Prijedor area: ‘With their mosques, you must not just break the minarets. . . . You've got to shake up the foundations because that means they cannot build another. Do that, and they'll want to go. They'll just leave by themselves.’ The intent was to erase history, to destroy a people's connection with place, to create a condition of anomie.

The intent to destroy the cultural identity of a people was also evident in the complete removal of any sign that the monument had ever existed. Mr Riedlmayer showed the Court a number of photographs where empty sites of former mosques were covered with grass, often with a rubbish tip or rusting vehicle marking the spot as a further desecration. A video clip taken by a news agency at the time showed a bulldozer clearing the rubble of a blown-up mosque in the town centre of Bijeljina, while soldiers stood casually by and civilians went about their business. In some cases like that of the 18th Century Sava Mosque in Brčko, the rubble was dumped on top of a mass grave site and used to cover the remains of Muslim civilians killed by Serb forces.

Civilian targets

In on-site research, Mr Riedlmayer talked with people from the local communities, some who witnessed the destruction of their monuments. Though not part of his research, he collected reports of civilians killed or burned alive when mosques and Catholic churches were torched.

More than 30 members of the Muslim congregation were reportedly burned alive when the mosque at Hanifići in Kotor Varoš was destroyed. In the Prijedor village of Čarakovo, he was told that Serb forces gathered 18 Muslim villagers in front of the mosque and killed them, wrapped the imam (clergyman) in a prayer carpet and burned him to death, then burned down the mosque and blew up the minaret. . . . Similar incidents occurred at Catholic religious sites.

In the town of Prijedor the Roman Catholic parish church was mined twice (September 1992 and August 1995). After the second explosion, which levelled [sic] the remains of the church, Bosnian Serb police detained the parish priest, Father Tomislav Matanović, and his aged parents, who were not seen alive again; their bodies were discovered six years later, shot in the head and dumped into a well near Prijedor.

In another incident in Prijedor municipality, the Catholic church was burned along with all the houses in the village of Brisevo and 78 parishioners, including women and children, were reportedly killed.

Mr Riedlmayer also reported that some of the destruction in the spring of 1992 has been linked to JNA forces. He provided several examples where JNA aircraft, tanks and troops were sighted firing on religious or cultural monuments. Milosevic singled out one example of a mosque at Orasje which the report said was destroyed by uniformed JNA troops arriving in a military transporter. ‘Weren't Croatian forces in control of Orasje?’, Milosevic asked. Mr Riedlmayer replied that they were in control of the Orasje in Northern Bosnia, but not of the Orasje in Doboj municipality where JNA troops were seen by an eye witness.

Addressing Judge May, Milosevic attempted to distinguish between mutual destruction of religious monuments by all three sides and the destruction of cultural monuments. The former, he said, occurs in civil wars, while the latter is genocide.

Mr Riedlmayer, however, denied that the destruction was equivalent on all sides. While acknowledging that Serb Orthodox monuments had suffered some destruction, he testified that it had not happened to an equal degree or simultaneously. In areas under the control of Bosnian Serb forces, there seems to have been nearly complete eradication of non-Serb religious structures. In areas under the control of the Sarajevo Government (i.e. the Government of Bosnia-Herzegovina), especially urban areas, by and large Serb Orthodox sites survived intact.

No evidence of ‘revenge’

Judge May noted that destruction of Serb Orthodox monuments was not part of the indictment. It would nevertheless have some relevance if it supported Milosevic's theory that mosques and Catholic churches were targeted out of revenge, rather than in a systematic campaign.

None of Mr Riedlmayer's evidence supported the revenge theory. ...

Mr Riedlmayer ended his testimony by quoting a Muslim citizen of Banja Luka, following the destruction of the 16th Century Ferhadija mosque: ‘It is as though they have torn our heart out. They wanted us to understand we had no place here.’ The testimony and the report are cogent evidence that ethnic cleansing involves more than killing and dislocation.

The destruction of a people's cultural monuments effectively separates them from place and casts them rootless into the world. It destroys their self-identity as a community existing over time. As the Prijedor police chief said, it is an essential element in ethnic cleansing.

END QUOTE

Sheik Yer mami ...

The population of Bosnia, when last taken in 2003, was 3.98 million people. There WERE 1,750 mosques in BH before the war. Serbs destroyed 80% of them, or 1,400.

Greek Gurl:

Please tell us why the Greek Orthodox church would not allow the Pope to stop in Greece and why the Greek Orthodox still will not talk with the Pope in depth about the reunification of our churches.

Thank you.

We have seen the gratitude of "Ethnic Albanians" (PC Speak for Muslims) as evidenced by the Fort Dix Six.

Fanatic ...

You need to put the blame for the dead in the Balkans where it belongs. Read the timeline I have posted here many times before, and it becomes as plain as the nose on your face.

No one here, including me, has every had anything but complete condemnation for any violence against the Serbs, any destruction of their churches, or any spectre or radical Islamism in the Balkans or anywhere else.

However, giving Serbia Kosovo, after Serbs tried to ethnically cleanse them, is a crime against humanity. Period.

In response to Morgaan Sinclair:

1) The first link to mosques purportedly damaged or destroyed in Kosovo indicates approximately 200. But the evidence is suspect because Andreas Reidlmayer is not a historian but a librarian who recieved grants for his pro-Albanian work from the Soros Foundation, a notoriously anti-Serb institution.

2) The second link to mosques purportedly damaged or destroyed in Bosnia indicates that an "estimated" 80% of Bosnian mosques. As we know, Muslims always bump up the estimates, like "250,000" dead during the Bosnian War. FYI, Saudi Arabia is building mosques there like crazy now.

3) With respect to the claims of "deliberate book burning" by the Serbs with the destruction of the Sarajevo Library, we once again find Mr. Reidlmeyer serving up the facts. It seems that he omitted mentioning that Muslim forces set up mortar positions on the roof of the library, from which they were shelling Serbian residential areas in Sarajevo.

Perhaps Morgaan Sinclair can do a little further reading on the Bosnian War.

Gadzooks, for a moment, I thought this was Yahoo chat.

I am not an expert on the Balkans, but I know one thing for sure, if you give Bush enough time, he wont do anything about it...

Now, stop trying to sell the purported innocense of the poor Serbs who just had to ethnically cleanse everybody else in the Balkans cuz they think every scrap of land in the place should belong to them.

And yes, more than 2,000 mosques were destroyed.

As for the death toll, it varies, but compiled sources seem to have come to about 175,000 in Bosnia.

From historian Michael White at http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat3.htm

#37 Bosnia and Herzegovina (1992-95): 175 000

* Total
o U.S. State Dept.: 250,000 (Bosnia and Herzegovina Country Report on Human Rights Practices for 1996 [http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/1996_hrp_report/bosniahe.html])
o 29 April 1999 AP: 250,000
o Compton's Encyclopedia: 200,000
o 6 April 2002 Times [London]: 200,000, incl...
+ D. in siege of Sarajevo: 15,000
+ Massacred in Srebrenica: 8,000
o MEDIAN: ca. 175,000
o International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights: more than 160,000 (Annual Report 1997 [http://www.ihf-hr.org/ar97bos.htm])
o Dan Smith (The State of War and Peace Atlas 1997) uses the Bosnian War as the example of how difficult it is to estimate accurate death tolls, but in the end, he settles for 150,000.
o B&J: >60,000
o George Kenney, The Bosnia Calculation (NY Times Magazine, 23 April 1995): 25,000 to 60,000 ([http://suc.suc.org/politics/myth/articles/042395.George_Kenney.html])
* Srebrenica
o 6 July 2000 LA Times:
+ 4,700 bodies exhumed
+ Internat. Red Cross estimates total of 7,079 k.
+ Amal Masovic's B-H govt. commission: 8,400

Disclaimer: This is not an attack on Morgaan (not meant to be, anyway)

Bosnia's total area (Wikipedia) = 19,767 sq miles

Area between mosques in 2002 (according to above figure of 1750) = 19767/1750 = 11.29 sq miles (assuming that each mosque is a point and has an area of zero; a valid assumption, since the total area of a mosque would be in sq feet, and nowhere near miles)

Assuming that every mosque in Bosnia was in a square grid evenly distributed throughout the country,

Distance between every adjacent mosque = √11.29 = 3.36 miles

Seems like a very high mosque density for the country. Note that this assumes that these mosques were populated throughout the Serb majority Srpska, which is 9,672 sq miles. If the mosques in Bosnia were not in Srpska, then the above mosque density would be almost double.

Sorry, Infidel Pride. 1,750 mosques for a population of 3.8 million people is a very thin display of religiosity.

For example, the population of South Carolina is about 4.5 million people. There are 1,900 Southern Baptist churches ALONE in this state.

Or, Infidel Pride ...

PLEASE GIVE US A CITATION FOR HOW MANY MOSQUES YOU BELIEVE THERE WERE, since I'm sure you're not in the business of counting mosques in your spare time.

Geography won't get it. Charleston, SC, is much smaller than BH, and is called the Holy City because it has hundreds of churches.

Can you just not accept facts? Find a VIABLE source for your claim or stop making it.

Morgaan Sinclair links more websites to, ahem, the US State Department to confirm the death toll in Bosnia. Well, a trusted source, indeed! The death toll for the Bosnian war was 100,000 on all sides.

Now this bit about Slobodan Milosevic and the speech he gave on Kosovo Polje in June 1989. It ought to be read in full. It used to be on emperorsnewclothes.com. It's absolutely not a nationalistic speech.

Srebrenica? A Muslim hoax. Eight thousand claimed dead, but only 2,200 bodies buried in Potocari. Oh, yes, thousands of unidentified bodies in a Tuzla warehouse, according to David Rohde. The bodies are unidentified, and until they are, they cannot be acribed as "victims" of Srebrenica. Most of them were probably killed in the failed attack on Ratko Mladic's forces in Kiseljak in May 1995. It was hushed up because U.S. Gen. Galvin led some 10,000 Muslim mujahideens to their death. And who are those 2,200 buried in Potocari? Read Mililvoje Ivanisevic's article "Licna Karta Srebrenice." He reveals that many of the so-called victims buried in Potocari died before the war started in the 1980s! There are about two hundred Muslim war criminals there who participated in attacks on Serbian civilians. You can read about it in "Ratko Mladic: Tragic Hero," in the chapter called "Srebrenica: The Phantom Massacre." Look for Ed Herman's forthcoming book on the phony allegations of a massacre at Srebrenica. It should open a few eyes.

The point of this discussion is that the Serbs were the first line of defense against the Muslim hordes invading Europe in 1389, and they kept them at bay for five hundred years. When NATO bombed the Serbs for the benefit of cheap oil from the Saudis, the anti-Muslim barrier fell. It was suicidal for the West.

I know Wikipedia has its issues, but there aren't too many ways it can lie about the area of any state or country. So using that as my source,

Area of BH = 19,767 sq miles
Area of SC = 34,726 sq miles

I calculated the church density given your figure of 1900 above, and that came to 1 in every 4 miles. That too is unbelievable, given that you have vast areas of rural space between the cities, but I'd let any SC residents attest to that.

I don't have any citations for the number of mosques that were there in BH. I however took the number you provided, and did the calculation above, and what I came up with looked ridiculous. It isn't very different from your claim some months ago that the Ottoman navy evacuated millions of Jews off Cadiz - a claim that was shown to be ridiculous once someone calculated how many ships it would have required to pull that off.

As an exercise, how many mosques do you think there are in Saudi Arabia?

@ Morgaan Sinclair

Hi morgee.It is I- svemirko. I was just wondering what was happening to you? There was so many threads about us and not a single post from you. Was you serbideized for a while? C'mon, it isnt so horrific. After all, you are not squiptar, arnt you? I suppose you are classic american liberal who thinks that economy, education and democracy can solve any problem, including jihad. Now without any wish to waste the time, your and mine, trying to explain why giving Kosovo and Metohy to muslims is fundamentaly wrong,and with a wish to give you one civilized explanation, I would try to answer you on other issue: serbian destruction of mosks.
Now, morgee, I must regretebly tell you that, as all antiserbian propagandists on the west, you have overexaggerater the numbers. It was like in those story: serbs killed 300.000 muslims, in the war where 10 years latter by international comisson was found out that it was around 60.000 muslims (with 35000 serbs too).
Maybe you dont know, but in bosnia muslims have the 'day of the mosks'. It was celebrated on may 7th, and just that day I read an article on bosnian site: http://www.24sata.info/5546 . So with a 3 weeks delay, Ill translate for you some of the excerpts:
...In bosnia is in the period from 1992 to 1995 destroyed 614 mosks and 218 mesdzidz. Karadzics Serbs destroyed 534 mosks and 175 mesdzids. Bobans (Mate-croatian war time leader) Croatians 80 mosks and 43 mesdzids...Serbs damaged 249 mosks and 21 mesdzids and Croatians 58 mosks and 20 mesdzids. Some mosks, like karadjozbeg mosk in Mostar was shelled by both Mladic and croatian armyes....More than a half of destroyed and damaged mosks are rebuilded, and there is also around 300 mosks and mesdzids in construction...(Too many if you ask me for some 'moderate muslims with lipstick and beer').

Thus spoke bosnians. Now you may add if you like to their numbers or think that they overexaggerated in this story like in any other issue. But anyway morgee, there is a saying: grater catholic than a pope. Only in this case, it would be a greater muslim than muslmis themself.

Infidel ...

Knock it off. I gave you the number of Southern Baptist churches in SC ONLY. That doesn't count the regular Baptists, Methodists (huge), Catholics, Jewish synagogues, AME churches, Unitarians, Orthodox, Lutheran and Episcopalian.

Please CITE A VIABLE source for your assertion.

In my hometown (in SC), we have 1,500 people. We had a Lutheran church, a Methodist church, a Catholic church, an AME church, an Episcopal Church, and a Jewish synagogue.

Nine miles away was Providence, SC, and they had five churches.

Five miles away was Eutawville, and they had six churches.

SO ... PLEASE DISPROVE on the basis of CERIFIABLE FACT. If you believe there were not 1,750 mosques in Bosnia, GIVE ME A SOURCE.

Svemirko ...

Same to you as Infidel Pride. If you believe all the people who had solid lists of cultural landmarks and places of worship are wrong, please give VIABLE REFERENCES FOR WHAT YOU SAY.

In matters such as this OPINION is not enough. Also wishing, hoping, prevaricating, lying, dissembling, perseverating, and bloveating are not enough.

Deliver the facts or shut up about it.

And delightful to see you again, too, darling.

Infidel Pride:

Total number of houses of worship in the United States in 2000 was 319,364. Population of the United States in 2000 was 281,421,906. That's a church for every 881 people.

Now let's take Bosnia-Herzegovina. Muslim: 40% of a population of 3.98 million = 1,560,000 people. At 1,750 mosques, that is a mosque for every 891 people.

Very close, wouldn't you say? In fact, there are fewer mosques for the Muslim population of BH than there are churches for Americans.

Perhaps now that this burning issue is resolved, you can get some sleep.

Morgee

I understand, nothing as it seems, but dont be so upset. I dont wanna see you have a hart attack. I cannot stand yet another exemple of serbian homocidus strains. And beside, you dont need such a bitterness. You are a lady. I even agree with you on some issues, namely:
'In matters such as this OPINION is not enough. Also wishing, hoping, prevaricating, lying, dissembling, perseverating, and bloveating are not enough.'
I amen that, and thats the reason why I think that crumbling islam on any possible way is more important than to have an OPINION. Thats the reason I gave you those datas, and you can chech them. Its not my fault that muslims you have read tells you one thing, yet on their website they tell the another. Find some bosnian to translate you entire article.
Meanwhile, just to calm you down, there is another article from today edition of bosnian muslims most readed newspaper 'avaz' (which is turkish word for 'day'- bosnian muslims, as well as all other nonarabs like to use language of those people who bring them 'true religion', rather than their own mother language).Title reads:

Cornerstone for a mosk (in Seattle) laid down:

Among large number of bosniaks, reis-l-ulem dr. Mustafa Ceric and dr. Haris Silajdzic (wartime and present time leader of bosniaks), put on may 26th cornerstone for mosk in Seattle. After getting approvment for bulding mosk with minaret, islamic community of bosniaks in Seattle will commence works on the mosk which caratcteristic is minaret 18 meters tall, what is first exemple in this part of western america and eastern pacific.
Whole article on bosnian at:
http://www.avaz.ba/absolutenm/anmviewer.asp?a=2219&z=12&isasp=

I'm not upset Svemirko, but it's nice to know you care.

Look, Svemirko, all I am saying is this:

You can't let a group of people rule another group they just tried to exterminate.

By the same token, I would be on the Serb side if I thought somebody was going to let the KLA administer Belgrade after they carried out massive numbers of terrorist attacks against SErbs during the wars.

Just let everybody separate for awhile -- and it may take a century -- becuase it's not going to work for ANY ethnic group to control any other group for a very, very long time.

AND ... Kosovo and Serbia clearly need to be monitored for the civil rights and safety of all non-majority groups living among them.

This were VERY bad wars, ugly on all sides, but the Serbs started it and kept it going, and therefore they bear more responsaibility than other groups.

It's unfortunate, but it's true.

Morgaan

As you have wisely said:
'You can't let a group of people rule another group they just tried to exterminate.'I also amen that. And please let me, as a Serb, briefly tell you how that looks in my eyes.
Again:
'You can't let a group of people rule another group they just tried to exterminate', and thats exactly what america didnt wish to apply in case of Serbs in, say, Croatia. Serbs were genocidized in ww2 by croatian and muslims ustashas, yet after war they didnt for the sake of genocide get some kind of free republic in yugoslavia. Rather, they was left in croatia and pending for ustashas ressurection, which in turn realy happened with advent of Franjo Tudjman. Now, beside minimizing the holocaust on both Serbs and Jews commited by nazis, he invoked all ustashas from all around the world, reestablish their iconography and tell the Serbs basicly: sit down and shut up or die. One exemple I have watched exactly one week before in Belgrade cinema. One german director, Michael Krause made a movie: All about Tesla. In it he interviewed many people, croatian president Mesic among others. In secvence, filmed last year, Mesic praised Tesla as some kinde of man of peace between Serbs and Croats. Just few seconds latter there was a quote from very same Mesic from 1991: Serbs can take from croatia only those things which they bring with them - dirty stinky shoes. Only this sentence alone will tell you who in ex yugoslavia have that aristocratic view on other people. Anyway, with such government on top, what Serbs in croatia could do but turn even to those thugs like miloshevic for help. Take those sentence from above, put it into mouth on any american president, and apply it on afroamerican population, and what you get would be a new american civil war.
In bosnia it was like domino effect. Muslims decide to vote for a guy with 'islam is solution' idea. Izetbegovic have its 'islamic declaration' long before he seized power like hitler have 'main kampf' long before aushvitz and barbarossa. Now, I think that Serbs have ANY reason for mutiny against that muslim elite, however I admit that in many times it was done clumsy and even unacceptable. Personally, Iam ashamed for some crimes (as you have mentioned burned sarajevo library), but such crimes happen in far more civilized communyties, and even there when islam is not present. To fight muslim jihadists is not an easy task, and you always got to balance between victory and humanity. Anyway, beside pumpin their casualties, muslims today are poised for only one thing: vengenance. And alowing them to dissolve Republic of Srpska will not be just final spit to what you have said in introducing quote, it will be finalizing their plan for demize and final genocidization of all christians in bosnia.You dont need to listen to me. Listen the Croats in bosnia. Their voice became dimmer and dimmer every day.
Kosovo and Metohy is special topic. It was largely christian land. Now it opposite, like many other places on earth. Squiptars (albanians), usually said that we have occupied that land back then in 7th century. But there is amazing 2 facts. First: up to 15 c. there was almost no albanians on Kosovo and Metohy. Second: In time before advent of islam we didnt have any problem with eachother on any major issue. It was islam who allows albanians far better substitutions in otoman empire. It was they who sold christianity for a right to terrorize christians and sieze their properties. It was they who now largely exloit the fact that most famous person from their side was Mother Theresa. Yet, they seems reluctant to follow her exemple on any other issue. Not least to convert back to christianity. And you cant imagine Morgaane what happens to many other Mothers Theresas on present day Kosovo and Metohy only because they are sebian not albanian origin. Anyway, hardly that you would, as well as I, belive that Mother Theresa would ever side with guys like those faces from KLA, as american government did (both past and present).

So basicaly, we Serbs doesnt stand now on Kosovo issue just to defy americans or anybody else. We stand because we belive we are right and that after leaving Jasenovac to croatians, and bosnian Serbs to sarajevo jihadist, indipendent KosovA would be just adding insult to injury. We offer albanians selfgoverning authonomy, which means they will have anything they want beside own passport, UN seat, and army. They will not see Serbian policemans, soldiers or birocrats (those late I also dont like to see), only not to have fully indipendent state where mafia and mudzahedins will rule everything. But for them even that is too much. Even that is grate Serbia. And if they succed on this, you can bet Morgaane youll see far more posts on JW/DW, only this time it will consider Macedonia, Montenegro or Greece. And perhaps New Jersey.

morgaan: You claimed that you can prove the Serbs destroyed 2000 mosques in Bosnia and Kosovo.

But your first claim (607 destroyed in Kosovo)

"(1) KOSOVO: 607 (at least)
State University of New York list-serve at
http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0611&L=justwatch-l&O=D&P=1086"

is contradicted by your own source since it says 225 out of a total of 607 were destroyed!!!
It also doesn't say by who and why: it admits that two were destroyed by NATO. But how many were destroyed by muslims themselves to put blame on serbs or were bomb making factories where a bomb exploded by accident (like it happened in India recently) or were kla sniper positions where from they fired at the Serbs.

Your second claim is also amusing (1400 destroyed in Bosnia)

(2) BOSNIA: 1,400 (80% of all 1,750 mosques)
http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_050_islam_bosnia.htm

Your source is the Islamic community in bosnia, (well that says everything about the credibility of your source) but once again it doesn't say who destroyed those mosques and why? Funny enough
svemirko found an article from Bosnia that says that at the official commemoration the muslims claimed only 534 mosques were destroyed by the Serbs.
(I can give you a link to an independent source that claims approximately 600
http://iwpr.net/?p=bcr&s=f&o=156388&apc_state=henibcr2000)

Now explain this to me:
How can you with a straight face claim that the Serbs destroyed 1400 mosques in Bosnia, when the muslims themselves only claim 534, and how can you claim that the Serbs destroyed 607 mosques in Kosovo, when you own source says that only 225 were destroyed???

Since when did taxing gasoline do any good? We're paying around $8 per U.S. gallon here in the UK now, and around 75% of that is tax; but it hasn't reduced the use of cars, etc. one iota. It's only pushed up the cost of living here.

The mosques , the kulla , or towers and minarets were often used by the KLA as strongpoints. This had been verified by the KVM who witnessed a column of the Yugo army being attacked on the Prizren-Djakovica road, at the end of January 1995, from the minaret of the local mosque.

So even the Serbophobie KVM noted the KLA regularly used these mosques ,etc as bases to attack the Serbs.

Also look at the geographical distribution of these 200 odd damaged mosques.

There are significant exceptions.

a) The city of Prizren had no damaged sites, NONE

b) In Pristina, only one mosque was burnt. ONE

Other significant exceptions included the southernmost tip, the Gora region, which is Muslim but not Albanian. The Gorani are Slavs who are Muslim.

Nearly all the destroyed mosques were in KLA heavy infiltrated areas .....principally the Prizren, Djakovica, and Suva Reka regions

Even within this area is the exception of Mamush which is ethnically Turkish.

The ethnic Turks like the Gorani were PRO Serb and there was little / no KLA activity in the areas

There was also less damage to be seen in Eastern Kosovo where many Serbs lived. Now , Moron , why didn't the Serbs in Eastern Kosovo burn down the mosques in the area? After all , according to you they were bent on a Genocidal rampage. It would have been easy to have burnt down the local mosque. So why didn't they?

The only explanation that makes sense is the Serb explanation.

i.e. That the mosques were being used as battlepoints by the KLA and were hence destroyed in combat with Serb forces. Areas with little KLA activity were left untouched

P.S. Food for thought from 87 to 99 several hundred mosques were built in Kosovo . That's right , during Slobo's Genocidal rule, in Kosovo , hundreds of new mosques were in fact built

Please tell us why the Greek Orthodox church would not allow the Pope to stop in Greece and why the Greek Orthodox still will not talk with the Pope in depth about the reunification of our churches./

Things have changed.The late Pope John Paul visited Athens and spoke at the hill where St.Paul addressed ancient Greeks. For decades there was a negotiation about the exact words that the Pope would say over the Fourth Crusade in 1204,that started to liberate Jerusalem but mysteriously ended in sacking Constantinople,with the Catholic Church insisting that it was Venetians to blame and the Greek Church asking for an apology.Anyway this is solved now,the relations between the Churches are better than ever but theological differences cannot be set aside easily for canonical unification and it is not Greeks alone who decide but other Orthodox Churches also,by far the biggest being Russia.
And that brings us to why politically Orthodoxy matters.When we talk about Christian Orthodoxy we do not talk about Greece or Serbia,mainly we talk about Russia.The Kosovo issue is also an indication how the West sees Russia. When Condoleezza Rice visited Moscow she met also the liberal pro-Western opposition and all of them warned her about the impact of America's desision on the perceptions not of course of Putin or the government but of the Russian people.
If the West applies equal standards as you accepted before and grants to Bosnian Serbs the same rights it grants to Kosovar Albanians it will be seen by the Russians that it acts out of principle.
But if the West demands from Dodik to succumb to the Muslims and at the same time demands independence for Kosovo it will be seen by the Russians as an injustice and above all that for U.S. No1 enemy is still Russia and not Islamists.

The questions anyone must ask themselves before any action is...

(1) Does it help secure ourselves from defeat?
(2) Does it hurt the house of Islam?

If the Serbs give up their lands what will be result for non-muslims....

(1) Does it help secure ourselves from defeat?

Instead it does the opposite. It gives up more land and worse in Europe. Losing non-muslim ground does nothing but encourage more land grabs around the world and within Europe. Also it will give a base free to wage more jihad against all their neighbors and to sneak jihadist into europe or be a base for jihadist fleeing europe.

(2)Does it hurt the house of Islam?

Allowing more non-muslims land to be controlled by muslims does NOT hurt the house of Islam. That should be easy for anyone to figure out.

Conclusions...

We must preserve non-muslim lands around the world from being taken by muslims who use force or immigration to take land for the house of Islam.

GreatComet ...

I understand what you are saying and feeling. But how do we tell a people that they have to accept the rule of the people who tried to exterminate them when EVERY OTHER ETHNIC GROUP IN THE BALKANS IS NOW FREE OF SERB CONTROL?

I am talking basic human fairness here, not Islam.

And I'm talking pure practicality. If this unfairness goes down as Serbia wants it to, what kind of case do you think the radicals can make of that? There is already a problem of Wahhabi infiltration with HUGE amounts of money, and the Serbs can do nothing with it now. If Kosovo is denied independence from the people who tried to exterminate them, what do you think is going to happen?

My great fear is that another war is practically inevitable now ... but I think that independence for Kosovo lessens (1) the probability for war and (2) the probability of Saudi-Wahhabi control of hte province as a prelude to a war fought between Muslims and Christians regardless of ethnicity — a war that could kill a million people in the Balkans in the next decade and effect a HUGE invasion of Serbia. Serbia was spared most of the fighting that it took to the rest of the Balkans peoples in the 1990s. They will not have that advantage in the next one.

And make no mistake: If Serbia goes to war in Kosovo, the Croats and Bosnians, Catholic and Muslim alike, may come in on the side of the Albanians, who at this point are very poor. And given the amnount of pent-up rage against the Serbs that is part of the emotional make-up of Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Catholics of various ethnicities, that is real trouble for Serbia, which will have to defend herself from absolutely every border.

Now, about your last post:
'And make no mistake: If Serbia goes to war in Kosovo, the Croats and Bosnians, Catholic and Muslim alike, may come in on the side of the Albanians, who at this point are very poor. And given the amnount of pent-up rage against the Serbs that is part of the emotional make-up of Croats, Bosnians, Macedonians and Catholics of various ethnicities, that is real trouble for Serbia, which will have to defend herself from absolutely every border.'

Morgaan, you dont know balkans so good to speak like that. Croats will certanly not goin for a war with Serbia, at least not for muslim sake. They barrely accept to join nato and send few battalions to avganistan. Even if america stage full scale invasion on Serbia, just that it may tell to muslim world: 'look guys, we invade a christian countryes too, not just your muslims', which I think is a major american wish at this moment,that doesnt mean that croatians will be involved.But EVEN if that scenario happens, you can get very, very amazed. You know, Morgee, when your USA armed muslims in bosnia and croatians for fighting Serbs, massive opertaion against Republic of Srpska took place. And you know what happened: where we were unabled to defend possition, we let croatians in (instead of muslims). Now, you may ask why. Well, again, dont trust me, the serb. Find some catholic Croat, presumably from bosnia, and he can explain to you why in 1993 Croatians fled to Serbs when they fight muslims. They were just returning the favor, cos even the croatians were not such ungratefull when you save their soldiers like some other people are ;)
After all, nobody want to live under muslims, even those moderate ones.

One more about Macedonians. Morgaan, what we Serbs think about american involment in Kosovo and Metohy, the same thing Macedonians think. Anyway, I will prepare myself for macedonian impact with large bottle of shlivovitz and some porklet. Why you dont go to Macedonia and ask them for possibility that they fighting Serbs for behalf of squiptars.
Rather Morgaan, pay attention on this: When Croatia was set to become indipendent and Serb free, almost all in the region agreed, and the same happened with the rest of the world. When bosnia do the same, there was already ambiguites,but lets say they done it too. But, when it comes to albanians, nobody here lady dont want to appease them and see them with full wing span. Specially not Macedonians, Greeks and Montenegrins. Probably, cos everybody know that albanians will never stop on Kosovo and Metohy. They simply can go on and on with their story. Just like you.

Morgaan Sinclair you have never done anything but post the typical propaganda that NATO posted to fool the public that bombing the Serbs was just.

You keep coming back to the fact that the Serbs were ethnically cleansing everyone they could in the region, but the reality is that none of that ever happened.

Forensic investigators combed Yugoslavia and found 6,000 bodies in a mass grave made up of all ethnicities of that region. What happened to the 100,000 mass graves NATO spokesperson Jamie Shea sold the world on?

In Bosnia they talk about the Screbenica massacre, well UN General Lewis MacKenzie has staedfastly stated time and time again that the allegations are completely false and the numbers don't add up on that one. There were deaths there, but they were a direct result of Bosnian ethnic cleansing of Serb civillians outside of Screbenica. Find something on the Medak Pocket, a very good friend of mine served in the Canadian Army in that incident, he walked the ground and had to fight for his life as he came under fire by a Croation unit led by Muslim Agim Ceku.

Get your facts straight, we all know the propaganda lies without you. I really hope you just go away and blog on some jihadi sites where you might be welcome.

Albanians don’t belong in Kosovo. Period.

Kosovo has been Serb from time immemorial. Albanians’ presence there is a result of deliberate policy of Ottoman imperialism followed by Serb-loathing Austrian Hapsburg oppressor, Nazi and Communist rule.

Sinclaar sobs; a Serb killed Ferdinand-the-louse! Well, good for Serbs!
And Czechs killed Heydrich! Good for Czechs too!
Is Sinclaar unhappy about that too?

A foreign oppressor is sometimes, unfortunately not too often, dispatched to hell. We should rejoice someone is doing the honourable work.

Genocide in Kosovo? A monumental, cynical hoax in the best tradition of the taqyiyah. The only genocide in Kosovo was the Albanian 21 SS Skanderbeg Division murderous actions against Serbs, Jews and Gipsies during the WWII.

While Serbs heroically persisted in their ancient Serb tradition of defending their land and fought the Nazi invader, the Albanians stabbed them (and Europe) in the back joining Hitler’s SS en masse; rounding up Jews, Gypsies and Serbs sending them to extermination camps committing most gruesome atrocities against the defenceless civilians. Anything Serbs have done to Albanians during the recent Kosovo conflict pales in comparison with Albanian brutality in the WWII.
Well, they trusted that after the war is won by Hitler they will be rewarded with Kosovo. They miscalculated that time and had to wait for President Excrement Clinton and his CNN Goebelesque propaganda machine.

We should never forget that in the apocalyptic Nazi war against western civilization Serbs played the most admirable role and paid terrible price, so we can be free. As an European I do owe Serbs my deepest gratitude and admiration. I owe Albanians nothing, but mistrust and contempt.

I have talked to countless UN soldiers who spent time in Kosovo. Virtually all are disgusted by the Albanians and many say the Serbs should be given free hands to kick the Albanian trespassers into Albania. I hear from them again and again: “we bombed the wrong guys”.

We have been conditioned to think of ethnic cleansing as a horrific crime. If the ejected party is the hostile invader – I am all for it. Especially if the invader makes no secret of his intention to ethnic cleanse the proper owner of the land once he gets the chance. The West, especially, the US provided the chance and the Albanians grabbed it and Serbs are fleeing Kosovo. What we are seeing now is the most disgusting historical travesty.
Shame on the West for betraying the Serbs!

Morgaan Sinclair said:
"In my hometown (in SC), we have 1,500 people. We had a Lutheran church, a Methodist church, a Catholic church, an AME church, an Episcopal Church, and a Jewish synagogue.
Nine miles away was Providence, SC, and they had five churches.
Five miles away was Eutawville, and they had six churches."
___________________
So what ? Are we worried that said Methodist,Lutherans and Baptists want to rule the state of SC and suject non-believers/"infidels" to death by the sword and subject non-belivers to infidel tax and religion law ? No this is Islam rule and desire and of course the desire of Muslims in the Balkans who which to raise the sword and conquer the region for Allah. So as always your arguments are based on nonsense.

The Yugoslav civil war can be summarized by the advice Mohammed gave his disciple Nu`aym bin Ma`sud: "Go and awake distrust among the enemy to draw them off us if you can, for war is deceit."

(§ 681, p.458. Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah "The Life of Muhammad" A. Guillaume, trans. Oxford University Press

Thus the lies that were and are progated by the Muslims regarding atrocties and the western media who jumped on thier bandwagon. These deceits served them well and indeed shame on the West for being duplicit in helping them.

It does not matter what is driving Ms Sinclair prolific posting. The general style and of-the-hip fired references are reminescent of the professional propagandists from the CNN message board during the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999. There is nothing that can be said that will make her change her philipiques against Serbs. Logically, should anyone in the West try to deport their muslim immigrants for the sake of survival of their own country, or a part thereof (remember Malmo), thn they should never be allowed to ever control the area again. It is stunning how far some people would go in imposing their view on everybody, only to feel good about their own views and attitudes. Arguing with their kind is literally a headache.

My real reward came some 5 years after the Yugoslavian war, at an airshow in Omaha. A recogniscance helicopter pilot asked me about my homecountry, and then told me that he was staitioned in Kosovo for a couple of years. I did not express any opinion about his misssion, we only talked about flying in the Balkans - weather, terrain etc. Than, at the end he added: "As for the war, I think Miloshevic was right." Yes it is just one opinion of one midwestern guy, it was not official, not recorded, may be or may not be the opinion of the other soldiers stationed there etc., etc.

And a million Sinclair postings can not change it.

Serb, or the descendant of White Russian emigres in Belgrade? If the latter, Nina-related? A common name?

what happened to my post ?

and what happened to my post?

Just in case it was inadvertently erased I send it again:

people who disagree with you are not liars or bitches. They're just people who disagree with you.
Morgaan Sniclair

It all depends what one disagrees about. If you claim that the speed of light is a 100 mph, or that holy water boils in 112 degree centigrade I would think you badly informed, or odd, but would have never called you a liar.
But if, for example, you believe and disseminate stories of Jews using the blood of gentile children in Passover rites, or that the Serbs are a genocidal nation whose "stated goal was to create Greater Serbia to ethnically cleanse all non-Serb groups in the Balkans" you are not spreading factually incorrect, yet morally neutral information, but lying. You love your hatred of Serbs more than you love the truth.

Still I regret calling you "lying bitch". You could also be terminally deluded and as long as I am not sure which of the two you are I should have not called you that.

Hugh,

Just a common name.

Morgaan Sinclair,

Just one question: If Sweden decides to resume control of Malmo and deports all the former minority (and now diplacing-every-infidel majority) immigrants from Sweden, should Sweden ever be allowed to rule Malmo?

You are completely wrong, you cut and paste garbage that is based on lies that have been proven wrong. There is still a powerful group in the US that is doing everything they can to perpetuate this lie, and you are complicit in it.

I wonder if the new Angelina Jolie movie based off of Daniel Pearl's life will even mention the fact that he was the first US based reporter to tell the public the US bombing of Yugoslavia was based on lies. He wrote that for the New York Times of all places, but it missed the radar by a mile, why? Simply because the public was so misinformed, LIKE YOU, that it still draws gasps of disbelief.

The Clintonites out there will do everything in their power to keep perpetuating the lies, because that immoral son of a gun is still using it as an example of his superiority as a statesman.

That might explain why our mainstream media initially reported to the public that the Fort Dix gang was a group of terrorists from the former Republic of Yugoslavia. What a disgusting dirty little trick, the majority of the western zombies listening to that crap were believing these guys were Serbs. That is an intentional use of words intending to fool people.

Fanatic ...

Nobody lied. The Serbs tried to exterminate and take the lands of all non-Serb peoples in the Balkans: Croats, Bosnians, Albanians, and even in some cases Catholics.

Svmirko thanks and same to others. Of course I support the Serbs because I am always anti Jihad and against expansion of Dar al Islam

The last post was May 28 2997 at 8:29 PM.
It is now 6:08 PST May 29...boy am I glad thats over...

The 2000 number is correct for the number of Mosque destory by Serbian Force where they chickenshit that they have to destory than libirary to handle one mortor when than direct assualt by real men wearing boxing gloves would have taken out the mortor without harming thenlibrary at all.

Criticism is an attack, an opinion is a lie, and disagreement is an insult.

What a world.

Yes, I know the 2,000 is correct -- but only for Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina. It's more if you count other areas.

Now, you may be defending Islam, but I am not. I am simply saying that in the Balkans in the 1990s the Serbs were at fault and that to ask Kosovars (Muslim or Catholic) to accept Serb rule is completely ridiculous and inhumane.

That said, if the Muslims in the Balkans do not get the Wahhabis out as fast as you can, you're going to lose your countries to them, and the unique form of Islam practiced in the Balkans will be lost forever. There has been no generation of Muslims as irresponsible about the future nature and impact or their religion as this one has. In times past perhaps there was an excuse as certainly Christanity in the past had as many or more problems with its treatment of its minorities as did Islam.

But those days are over. Christianity has for CENTURIES been light year ahead of Islam in its general humanity, and now Islam is going down the tubes, becoming arguably the worst religion in the history of the world for its abuse of women, intolerance of other religions, vicious sadism in its legal system (hudud punishments), violent subjugation of others, terrorist attacks, indefensible lack of equality in all judicial matters involving women, attacks on Western culture (which is none of Islam's business), disenfranchisement or attacks on Christians, outright lies about the Jews (Protocols), and tolerance of completely specious claims in the new "Wahhabi Qur'an" which introduces condemnations of Christians and Jews not there before.

So you might want to watch it with me "Defender of Islam". I know who the good Muslims are and who they're not. And simply whining about the evils of the rest of the world isn't going to hack it.

I demand that the Serbs hand over Mladic and Karadzic and take responsibility for what they've done. They ought to have to rebuild half of the Balkans (and all of Sarajevo) out of the Serb national treasury.

And I also demand that Muslims in the Balkans stop playing footsy with the Wahhabi terrorists, because I can tell you this: If you guys turn Kosovo or Bosnia into "Little Wahhabiland" I'm going to send the Serbs a tank with blowback technology for Pesach.

Got that?

"That Daniel Pearl passed on disinformation fed to him does not make him a liar."

No, it makes him a lousy, lazy journalist.

Svemirko,

You seem to be forgetting that the Croats and Bosnians formed an alliance against the Serbs in the wars of the 1990s.

Besides, it makes no difference. If the Serbs try to subjugate the Kosovars again, NATO will be there again.

So the message is: Don't start another war.

Svemiko,
Being an Indian, and a Hindu, I can understand the serbian emotions...
It really is frustrating and I can feel the pain of the Serbians when they are accused of horrible crimes which are outright lies.
Last week in India the muslims bombed their own mosque in Hyderabad on a friday during prayer time inside the mosque which left some 12 dead and many injured...??Morgan should explain why is that that is because to insitgate the muslims against the Hindus and see infedels reeling. and this is not the first instance, last year 30 people dead in simialr mosque attack(thisis the most powerful balst because these were shias) ther other two Hyderabad and Jamma Masjid Delhi blasts were very minor ones and they were meant to be so as to cause small deathcount of the faithfuls and the retailiation of which would elad to a more higher count of non muslims Hindus. this was the intent.
.
And you talk about Mosques as places of worship Ms Moragan, you should have come to India last week when this bombs exloded in Mosques..the Muslims threw stones from inside the mosques as if there are stone quarries inside the mosques, on the law enforcement agencies who were deployed so to prevent a muslim riot on non muslims.
In my city and around it, the muslims planted bombs in Mosques and churches, and when they exploded the muslims rioted breaking public property and looting shops ..they did this to instigate even Christians against the poor Hindus..see how much they are going through???
.
You should realize it is not a misnorm for the muslims to destroy their own mosques and when terrorist hide in mosques and in awar these places should be just seen as hideouts rather than any religious buildings....and hey...what do u think..even at times of no war, these mosques are used to assemble jihads....so what sanctity these mosques have??? and you sympathy out of ignorance will never be respected by those who are knowledgeable about Muslims.
.
just as we were stolen of our native lands...by the grace of our large population and size of the country the sense of loss may not be that great, but with a small country size of serbia its break up and the stealing of Kosova which serbs consider as their mothers lap......the sense of loss is that much greater.....
.
I am a serbian, though I am a brown, Indian and a Hindu, I am a serbian...for I share the emotions of serbs, I beleive in what svemiko says, because I know muslims lie and they have no regard to anything except stealing lands for Allah as they were commanded to as slaves....
.
Serbia is my mother as much India is, and I stand by the side of my serbian brothers....
.

This is also the problem for Iran nuking Israel, in that the principal fallout drift carried by the jet stream goes straight to Tehran.
Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair

____________________

That Thug-in-Chief in Iran considers all who would be destroyed by his nuke martyrs for the cause of Allah, do you think he cares how many of his people he takes out or any other peoples in the area, all who perished would be deemed marytrs of the greatest Jihad of all to rid the world of Israel. After all the Koran tells him the End will not come until Muslims kill all the Jews. He is merely seeking to be an obedient Muslim.

Rnath_verma

I do NOT absolve the Muslims in India of the violence they do. Nor to I absolve them of it anywhere else they do it. Nor do I absolve the Hindutva of burning Muslims in trains, nor vice versa.

ALL of these groups need to stop playing violent, supremacist games, religious or political.

I am so sick of this pretense that because I criticize the Serbs for their precipitous violence in the Balkans in the 1990s and their ongoing attempts to control other ethnic groups that I am somehow exonerating Muslims of their violence and jihad.

Captain Grievous ...

It's becoming more than obvious that not all Iranians are willing to glow in the dark for the sake of Ahmadinejad's Napoleanic dreams. I think he'll be assassinated before he can do this. And this time, it won't, as in the case of Mossadeq, be the CIA. It also won't be the Mossad. It'll be someone very close to him in the upper echelons of Iranian politics.

Morgaan Sinclair:

Just one question: If Sweden decides to resume control of Malmo and deports all the former minority (and now dsiplacing-every-infidel majority) immigrants from Malmo, should Sweden ever be allowed to rule Malmo?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15577

Morgaan if you actually want to think about this try this link, it has some hard questions in it.

http://www.hirhome.com/yugo/ball.htm

Morgaan

The 'pro-Serb contingent' is also a part of the anti-Jihad contingent - just about everyone on this site, and also tends to be pro-Israel, pro-US, pro-Russian (vis a vis the Chechens), pro-Indian, pro-Thai and a whole lot of Infidel countries who are shit scared of doing anything to the Mohammedans because people like you will stop liking them.

FYKI, Hindutva is an adjective, not a noun in the way you're using to describe Hindu 'fanatics' (and implies that India is culturally a Hindu nation in the same way that the US or Serbia are culturally Christian nations, or that Israel is culturally a Jewish nation: it does not imply that all Indians have to be Hindus any more than all Americans or Serbs have to be Christians). Also, the train burning that you allude to was done by Muslims, and a number of Hindu pilgrims returning to Gujarat got burnt alive in the train. That's what started the blowback that gave the local ummah the lesson of its life - they've messed with Mumbai, Hyderabad, Calcutta, et al, but they have never messed with Gujarat since.

As for arming Serbia with nukes, a nuclear fallout can easily be avoided if instead of fissile bombs - Uranium or Plutonium, they are given a few Hydrogen bombs with plastic, not fissile casings. Such a hydrogen bomb wouldn't produce the Chernobyl type waste that you worry about. Let the Russkies extract all the deuterium and tritium they can get out of the Arctic and Black Seas, make their H-bombs, and send them to Belgrade. And let the Serbs then decide whether and how to use them.

Given how you've distorted history in the case of the Serbs vs. the Muslims, no wonder you're doing the same thing here with the Hindus, which is why I once asked you which other Jihads you support. It is also why DefenderofIslam thinks he has an ally. It's funny seeing you pissed off at an admitted Jihadi being the only one on your side, but he made the right call.

Like Excommie asked, if Sweden one day decides to expel all Muslims from Malmo, or closer to home, the US one day decides to deport all Muslims in Dearbornistan, should Malmo or Dearbornistan become independent of Sweden or the US? How about Chechnya - do you think they should become independent?

rnath verma, there are indeed lots of parallels between Serbia and India. Happy to have you as a brother :)

rnath_verma

I have read about that event when muslims in India killed the hindus cos some other muslims burn their mosk (I read it on thereligionofpeace.com - what a site :). For muslims is like some unwritten concensus that whatever evil befall on them, somebody else is to be blame. Its like religious dogma not needed to be attributed to any hadith or ayet. On this website, about month ago, there was a news about serbian police clash with wahabbies (with one jihadist dead). About week latter, sorosh funded television B92, those worst exponents of neoliberalism in Serbia, whom because of usa government background even miloshevic couldnt do nothing, made a documentary about wahabbies in south Serbia (rascia, raska or as muslims call it sandzak region). Now in documentary, one muslim woman, a journalist of local muslim media, use to present their (muslim) view. And, as you can guess, for everithing was actually Serbia and its own regime, to be blame. Like, we didnt involve too much to prevent radical islam (if we did than we would be accused of interfering in muslim community), or we dont invest to much money in the region (actualy, there are parts in south Serbia with christan population far more poorer than muslim raska), than again, if we interfere thats from our nationalist position and wish to deplete that region from muslims (which wasnt happened even during the war in bosnia). To any american this may sound actually wery familiar: if you do somthing you are bad; if you don't do anything you are bad; acctually as long as you exist you are bad.
As long I have studied islam, and thats the time when I have learned to read, I was never more convinced that greatest threath for western culture and ist own tradiotion comes from within rather than from without. Actually now I belive that the domestic liberals, cluelless of anything but common mantra: 'ooh but look, muslim are humans just like us', are far greater threat than jihadists itself. Thats because jihadists are evil and easy to reckognize. On the contrary, most liberals are very decent people with wery good intentions who simply live in some constant SF-like (childish) dream about world without trouble, totally unawared what islam is. Those westerners who doesnt understand that islam and jihad are unseparatable. And those who dont understand that untill jihad exist as social and religious event among muslims, real peace on Earth are never to be acchived.
That may be applied on Morgaan offcourse, cos she is much more upset of Serbian retaking (and eventual repopulation) of Kosovo and Metohy (Kosmet for short) than she is upset of pakistan having A bomb (just like american ex president). She is more worried about those Serbs who try to appease americans maybe even more than americans try to appease all serbian enemyes (muslims namely). Of Serbs who not only never plot or commited any crime on any american, but actually dont even burn a single american flag, what some americans even do, not least pakistanis.Maybe that serbian absence of some real deep-rooted hatred toward americans is more troubling for her than faked love of muslims for help in balkans.
Anyway, real antijihadist combat is actually in its infant stage and if to be successfull, we should all have the same, at least rudimental knowledge of unity and our common enemy. From that part, your hindu religion with belifs in millions of gods is far more close and dear to me (and enigmatic I must admit), than muslims belif in one God (for which a got diarea when I hear some muslim or christian cleric explainig that its the same God in the Bible who is in quran). Personally, I belive that judeo-christianity have hindu-budist religion as most closest and similiar one, and with its own tollerance far closer to the west than islam and its jihad. For that stand I wish you hindus all the best,and even risking deleting this post, I must tell you that I was happy hearing back than in 1992 your action in demolishing those babri mosk monstrocity. Let the muslims feel what your and mine ancestors feel seeing our shrines destruction. I dont care they dont know the reason. I only care they know the feeling.

About Morgaan and her claim that 600 mosques were destroyed in Kosovo , obviously she hasn't even bothered reading the weblink she gave which supposedly supported her claim.

It explicitly talks abut 200 mosques damaged. Not 600

As I'd pointed out earlier, nearly ALL the damaged mosques in Kosovo were in areas of heavy KLA terrorist/ Serb security force fighting:

So, if you claim that the Serbs were on some Genocidal rampage through Kosovo, why did they leave untouched the mosques in NON KLA areas?

Why?

Why were mosques in Prizren city, the Gora region and Pristina - one mosque damaged - and eastern Kosovo almost completely untouched?

Even the Albanian historian Mark Krasniqi, in a book he published in 1958 entitled "Kullas in Metohija," described kullas as military forts. That was his finding, a finding of an Albanian historian in a book he published in 1958.

The KLA used the minoretes and kullas - as admitted by the KVM who saw this happen in Jan 99 - to attack the Serb forces , hence making the mosques a legitimate target.

One more thing to those who are unaware just who Riedlmayer is and his relationship with Kosovo.

He was a prosecution witness in the Slobo trial. He was no expert in the matters about which he testified. He had no Doctorate in anything , and his MS was in Librarys .

Anyway , he and his friends went to Kosovo and took some photos of the place. They then used their laypersons' knowledge of explosives to determine how the various buildings were destroyed, etc.

Amateur hour folks.

Now in any case, the prosecution will always , ALWAYS , get in traiend experts in explosives, etc. who are also independent. Except in the Slobo trial ,where it seems Ameteurs rule the roost.

Riedlmayer's the guy who Morgaan quoted - WRONGLY - about the number of damaged mosques.

Some history lessons. Tell me , Morgaan , about the significance of the church in Prizren, the church of the Holy Mother Ljevicka?

I'll give the answer: it was the first mosque that the Albanians made in Kosovo out of a
church .

Originally it was a church turned into a mosque

It's been very common in Kosovo for the Albanians to destroy a church and on it's exact place, to build a mosque.

Something that's been happening recently in Kosovo where Saudi funds are flooding into the area, mosques are shooting up everywhere, and churches are being destroyed.

Morgaan gets angry when mosques are destroyed - because they were used as forts - yet , keeps so quiet about what happened - after NATO forces and the KLA had taken over the running of Kosovo

For example

after the arrival of the German KFOR forces, mined and razed to the ground the St. George site
in Suva Reka from the fourteenth century, once again a world-class site, category 1

or

in the territory of the Prizren municipality, also after the arrival of the German forces of KFOR, that they demolished, burnt, mined, and destroyed churches and monasteries of St. Mark and the Holy Virgin dated back to the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, Sveti Ilija, Sveti Nikola, Sveta Petka, Sveti Jovan in Ljubiste, that is the sixteenth century, Sveti Vasilije The Great in Srbica, and St. Nicholas in the town of Prizren, dating back to the fourteenth century.

or

that the Albanian terrorists, after the arrival of the French KFOR forces in mid-August 1999, demolished, burnt, and mined the church of St. George in Rudnik, which is Srbica, dating back to the sixteenth century?

or

after the arrival of the Italian forces of KFOR in July 1999 demolished, burnt, and mined the
church of the Virgin Mary in Dolac, St. Nikola in Kijev [as interpreted}, dating back to the fourteenth century, and once again the St. Nicholas church in Cabici, sixteenth century, near Klina? These are all world-site, category monuments and sites.

or

after the arrival of the British units of KFOR in June 1999, demolished and on the 17th of July
1999 mined and destroyed the church in Slovenia, which is the Lipljan municipality? It is the St. Nicholas church dating back to the sixteenth
century.

etc.

Under the wonderful auspices of KFOR, in the period from June to September 99, a three-month period, 80 churches were destroyed

One last thing , Morgaan . If the KLA are such Atheists and so nonreligious, why was the entire Pristina Jewish population torched out of their homes?

All of them.

Why?

From rnath_verma

"The Muslims threw stones from inside the mosques as if there are stone quarries inside the mosques, on the law enforcement agencies who were deployed"

Priceless.

as if there are stone quarries inside the mosques

I had to laugh.

The reason why it was just sooooo funny , was I'd read so many similar cases in the Kosovo nonsense.

So - as with the Indian muslims - the mosques are such untouchable , sacrosanct , religious symbols , yet they're not averse to using them as a quarry and to pelt policemen with them too .

Same with the Kosovo Albanians who flooded across the border when the Serbs were supposedly gunning them down in their 1,000s .

The lies , lies , lies.

An the brazenness and shamelessness of it all - as with the quarry-cum-mosque incident in India .

Let your mind wander back to 1999 , when the evil and ruthless Serb forces were killing anything that was a Kosovo Albanain , on the Macedonian side of the border , was a doctor , a DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI . Not as qualified as a librarian such as Riedlmayer , natch , but all the same , I'm sure he'd say he was literate .

He was in charge of the Macedonian medical teams that helped bandage the many 1,000s of wounded Kosovo Albanians who somehow managed to survives the Genocidal intentions of the evil and blood thirsty Serb forces .

Let the good doc , himself explain the kind of carnage he witnessed from the Kosovo Albanian refugees.

For all those of a weak disposition , maybe you shouldn't read the extract . My , the Serb forces were the devil reincarnate .

Here's the webpage.

http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050301IT.htm

Page 36843

(

JUDGE ROBINSON Doctor, there was a reference in your testimony just now to some of them being injured. What kind of injuries did they have?

DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI Yes, I understand. There were some wounded people, not many. I think nine, nine injuries. Yes. There were fractures and wounds in the total number of 14 , including fractures, injuries, and wounds. We paid special attention to such cases, because every injury is treated seriously. There were lacerations on fingers; we had one person who had a gunshot wound in the stomach, but that's the condition the man arrived in, and he later had surgery. Since his wound was serious, we transported him to the hospital.

JUDGE ROBINSON Did you ascertain how the gunshot wound was sustained? How was it inflicted?

DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI We were not able to establish that. All we knew was that it was a serious wound, but that's the condition that he arrived in from Kosovo. He had already had one surgery in Kosovo, and he received another surgery in Macedonia. He, when he arrived, was rather aggressive. He was armed with a pistol, and he was difficult to deal with.

MR. MILOSEVIC Doctor, the person who had a gunshot wound, before arriving in Macedonia, if I understood you correctly, he already had one surgery.

DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI Yes. It was an old wound, but it needed bandaging and further treatment, and that's why we hospitalised him

SLOBOLet's clarify this so we can move on. Among those thousands of cases, did you have another gunshot wound?

DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI No, apart from this one case I told you about, because if that wound had been fresh, as we call it, it would still be bleeding, and of all the medical supplies we had, the least expenditure was of bandages,
whereas bandages would have been the most necessary in dealing with gunshot wounds. We had hundreds of people presenting more trivial problems, such as dislocations of joints, et cetera.

JUDGE ROBINSON Do I understand you to say, then, that of the thousands of refugees, just a very small number had injuries?

DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI I gave you the exact number; 14

JUDGE ROBINSON: Fourteen, yes. Okay. Just -- just another question. You told us of one with a gunshot wound. Were you able to ascertain how the other injuries, the other 13, were sustained? Tell us what the injuries were and how they were sustained.

DOBRE ALEKSOVSKI There were fractures, but not open fractures. There were fractures that we knew about from the stories of patients. A patient would tell us that he had a fracture, and he presented only bruises, and we would mark in our papers "suspected fracture." So we would send him to an x-ray, which could not be done in the field, of course. We would send him to the x-ray machine back in town.

)

Yes, read it weep . Of all the 1,000's and 1,000's of refugees who entered Macedonia , 14 had injuries.

Or as Slobo put it on page 36839

(

Slobo Mr. Robinson, the entire Kosovo indictment deals with, as it says, that the Serb forces of the army of
Yugoslavia and the police violently expelled, forcibly expelled Albanians from Kosovo, that they shot at them, that they beat them up, et cetera, et cetera. Therefore, it is assumed that that portion of the population that might have been injured, that is those people who asked for medical assistance, must have been or would have to have left some traces and have traces on them of either gunshot wounds or beatings. So we're dealing with this assertion that there was violence committed against Albanian citizens for them to be expelled from Kosovo.

So of those 100.000, not many called in for medical assistance, just those who needed it, who were ill in any way, and now we can see what they were suffering from, what their illnesses were or anything else. So this is important testimony, because if among those 100.000, you take a look at the register and you don't have anybody there who was injured or wounded through firearms or knives or anything, and if we don't have any people who were beaten up, then that shows us that the assertion is incorrect; that they were expelled under force of arms, violence, and so on and that that was the reason that they had to leave Kosovo.

So it's a very important question, an important issue. If we look at paragraph 59, it says in addition thousands of Kosovo Albanians who fled their homes and were thereby forcibly transferred as a result of the conduct of the forces of the FRY and Serbia and the deliberate climate of terror that pervaded the territory, et cetera, et cetera. There you have it.

)

14 injuries out of 100,000

Not even Compton on a Friday evening

And those injuries hadn't even been caused by the evil Serb forces either .

From svemirko

"But there is amazing 2 facts. First: up to 15 c. there was almost no albanians on Kosovo and Metohy"

and

"From that part, your hindu religion with belifs in millions of gods is far more close and dear to me (and enigmatic I must admit), than muslims belif in one God (for which a got diarea when I hear some muslim or christian cleric explainig that its the same God in the Bible who is in quran)"

TRUE TRUE TRUE

The Turks own records only had the ethnic Albanian Kosmet population at 2% at the beginning of the 16th Century.

Take a trip to India . It has a magnetic pull to it . A world unto itself . It's economy's really moving now , it's Hindu population are reaffirming their rights .

About the only good thing Dubya has managed in all his years in power is to forge closer relations with India.

Granted , it was all but inevitable that America and India would become closer , but give the silly sod some credit .

About the only good thing Dubya has managed in all his years in power is to forge closer relations with India.

Yes, but there is also dubious question about it: did he do it to counterbalance pakistan or perhaps china?

It may seem almost damning with faint praise when you are forced to give l'il ole Dubya credit for his Indian policy but, really, when we look at how bad his policy in, say, the Balkans has been, Indo-US relations really shine under his stewardship.

When the KLA started to infiltrate into Macedonia, in 2001 , the KLA terrorists would return, often injured , back over the Macedoanian Kosovo border.

The KFOR troops there were American.

The American soldiers would take them to the US camp, house them, feed them, tend to any wounds, then take them to the nearest bus stop and send them on their way. They probably gave them a big hug and lots of wet kisses too.

Throughout the long war in Macedonia, with 1,000's of Islamist terrorists crossing over the border, the US managed to shoot, ZERO Islamist terrorists.

In fact, many of these Islamist terror squads were being led by US military advisors - see Aracinovo.

The US policy was a brave and noble plan:

to win as many brownie points on Arab avenue as possible , and sod the poor Macedonian farmers who got in the way.

About a month later ,the very same Balkan Mujahideen did some re-landscaping of the Manhatten skyline.

For free.

"WHY DON'T THEY LIKE US ? "

Ah! to be a Dhimmi soldier.

I wonder if there's a medal for it too?

morgaan siclair wrote:
"So you might want to watch it with me "Defender of Islam". I know who the good Muslims are and who they're not. And simply whining about the evils of the rest of the world isn't going to hack it."

[...]

"And I also demand that Muslims in the Balkans stop playing footsy with the Wahhabi terrorists, because I can tell you this: If you guys turn Kosovo or Bosnia into "Little Wahhabiland" I'm going to send the Serbs a tank with blowback technology for Pesach."

It is statements like these, where Morgaan's argument fails noticably. Knowing the good Muslims as opposed to bad ones? IF Muslims turn Kosovo into little Wahabbiland?

Failure to comprehend the socio-political tool of Islam, as it always did and still does exist today, is hazardous to yours and every other non-Muslim's health.

The blame game is far from crystal-clear historically regarding this war. The fact is that where Islam marches, war follows. Islam should never get a free pass or a proclamation of innocence from any infidel...ever.

Hugh's position based on the article provided is valid and quite relevant.

"I know who the good Muslims are and who they're not"

The wise , all seeing Morgaan really said that?

Oh , let's put "humble" and "modest" with her name too.

I'm so in awe of her logical powers , the prowess of her research about the Balkans , etc , that I feel unworthy to read much of what she writes . People who post weblinks then don't bother to read the very first paragraph of the very same weblink are superhuman . Really , Morgaan - got the right number of "a"s right have I - you are the new race of super humans .

Of course she knows the good muslims from the the bad ones . I mean , it's just so self evident .

Oh . And she's modest too . Very modest .

Infide Pride the muslim didnot set that train on fire stop fanstrize about muslim burning burning to dear hindit in train. The State Indian Police Forces
along with RAW analgize the train fire than reach the conluteing that the Hindit inside the train start the fire and the Hardline Hindit Party started the false rummor that muslim started the fire so they can started a roit to munder muslim and win the local election they would have lost to Congress Party the only legality party in India. How the police knew where the fire started very simple there
are way to figure out where afire started by analgize where the most damage occur and the least damage occur. It than fire bomb was thrown there could be more damage to one side of the train car and the over side would have the least damage. Both side of the outside part of the train car have very little damage and the amount of damage is equal. The only way you can explain this was the fire started inside the train car by the hindit themself.

There are some priceless moments from the Macdonian doctor's testimony.

The manipulation by the MSN was........erm........exactly like Israel's and India's experience.

Lie after lie after lie .

And the brazenness of it all too .

( Page 36900 )

Slobo:Dr. Aleksovski, you mentioned in passing while you were saying how various footage or events were stage managed, that you saw allegedly people positioning somebody who was wounded in order to film that and then you saw this on television later on. Can you describe this event, this stage management of somebody who was allegedly wounded and how he was being positioned and how you came to the conclusion that he wasn't actually wounded.

Macedonian Doctor: I was at the camp at the time, the Blace camp, and I described what happen. The cameras were placed in front of us, they called some people up, and this one man, one person walking quite normally went off with a cameraman, quite literally passed in front of our tent. He was taken off by the cameraman, and later on our team told me -- they came to me and said, "Director, we saw them positioning a perfectly healthy man and took footage, filmed him on crutches." And that evening I saw it televised over Macedonian television. We saw that same case, the same
person, whereas he never came to us for help. We did not see that he was not able to walk or that he was in pain at all, and my conclusion was that
that was all stage managed, and that's why I brought it up.

SloboSo you saw the first -- you -- first of all you saw the man walking past your tent and later on you saw him filmed in pain on crutches. Is that what your explanation was?

DoctorYes.

Come on , you've got to laugh .

It gets better , funnier , whatever.

http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/050302ED.htm

The next witness was a MIRKO BABIK , who had been working in Skopje as a medical technician for 30 years . When the hordes of displaced Kosovo Albanian refugees came to Macedonia , he treated them , with his team .

Throughout his entire time there he didn't see a single Kosovo Albanian who'd been beaten up

(

( Page 36951 )

SloboThroughout that time, did you come across a single Albanian coming in from Kosovo who had perhaps been beaten or had suffered from any side, let's say the police, the army, or anybody else? Did you notice anybody like that who had come in beaten up?

WitnessNo,

)

None had any firearm wounds either

(

Slobo And throughout that time, did you come across any Albanian who was wounded, either by firearms or by a knife or anything like that?

Witness No.

)

And on the single occasion when a Kosovo Albanian claimed to be "black and blue"........

(

WitnessOn one occasion one Albanian did come to me. He was standing in front of our makeshift clinic and said he had been beaten up and that he was all black and blue. He said he was black and blue, like liver.........He was black and blue, but looking at his hands and face and the areas that I could see and the way he moved around and walked, I wasn't able to establish anything like that. And then I said, "Well, you can come into our field examination room and we'll examine you." He changed the subject straight away and asked me how far it was to Skopje. I said it was about 23 kilometres away. And in the meantime, another man and woman came into the examination room. I told them to take a seat, and the man got lost. He just disappeared.

)

Hmmmmmmmm . He ran away .

Interestingly , some Kosovo Albanians spoke of being forced to leave their houses by the KLA

(

Page 36953

SloboLet's just get one thing straight here. Was that an example that the KLA was forcing civilians to join the refugees and go to Macedonia?

WitnessYes. He told me that they were -- or, rather, let me see that they -- he meant that they were his men and that that's what they wanted him to do, to move towards Macedonia.

)

Interesting.

The Kosovo Albanians also mistreated any Roma who were there.

(

WitnessWell, I also remember the story of a Roma, a man who came when the morning shift was on duty. He came in very much afraid and said he hadn't been able to have water or food for two days and the children were crying. And when we asked why they weren't being given food and water, a group of young men came in and beat them up. He managed to jump over the fence, he said, and same to see me, and ten metres away from us there was the police and the Red Cross. I went over there, and the man repeated the same story, and a policeman and a lady from the Red Cross went to see what all this was about, see what was going on in the tent. When they returned, I asked them what had happened. They said it was true, and then I saw them take the food to the people ten minutes later.

Slobo Mr. Babik, you were saying that the Albanians, in actual fact, as far as I was able to understand, mistreated the Roma in the refugee camp. They didn't allow them to get food, get to the food and the water and that the Macedonian policemen had to separate them from them. Is that right?

WitnessYes.

)

In fact the only medical problems he had to deal with were........

(

Witness Since it was cold, they suffered from colds, laryngitis, respiratory problems. Also digestion problems because the food was dry mostly. There were some skin conditions because of lack of hygiene. There were many pregnant women.

)

Hardly war wounds . Not exactly the stuff seen at Iwo Jima or Stalingrad .

But not to worry , for the media were there in numbers .

(

SloboAt border crossings and in camps, did you notice the presence of a large number of TV crews and reporters?

WitnessYes. They turned out in force

)

Hurrah ! Now let the fun begin.........What the media did to the Serbs is exactly what's happening to the Indians and the Israelis

(

Witness I ran out of the car and said, "What's the matter? Do you need the stretcher? Shall I help you?" They said, "No, no. We'll bring the patient ourselves." And then they ran into the depth of the camp about 20 or 30 metres, and then I saw them put a young man on the stretcher. They put a young man on the stretcher. The young man was all crumpled, convulsive, like in great pain, while some cameramen were filming them. And when this scene was over, the young man got up from the stretcher, they cheerfully waved good-bye to each other, et cetera.

SloboThat was a staged scene, it's quite clear

)

Oooooh ! You arch cynic Slobo . How dare you suggest the MSN stage anything . You're beneath contempt .

There's more

(

WItnessOn another occasion, I must say there was an elevation near our infirmary, they gathered a group of women, very old men, disabled people, and I saw them with my own eyes taking children, children of about 2 to 5 years of age, away from their mothers, and they gave the children to the old people as if those were their grandchildren, and then they would film them. When the first shots, the first recordings were over, they would
change the order. The people from the back would be put in the front and vice versa, and then they filmed some more. And I saw this myself. I have no doubt about it. The people who were around, including myself, we reacted and we said, "Look what -- look at what they're doing." We summoned the police and the police chased them away.

The most active in this staging game, in this rigging game, were the camera crews of the CNN and BBC.

)

Shock horror !

How dare anyone suggest the BBC or CNN fake anything . The rotter !

(

Slobo I suppose that when you take such small children away from their mothers and give them to some elderly men, the children naturally cry.

WitnessThe children weren't crying; they were wailing, screaming. The cameramen instructed the old men to take their tissues out of their pockets and wipe their eyes and pretend to be crying themselves.

)

Ahhhhhh! Impartial reporting at the turn of the century

It also seems like the downtrodden refugees had problems with their memory too

(

WitnessAt the beginning, they were saying that they were fleeing bombs. I think it was a natural reaction. Later on, they started saying that the army and the police were chasing and beating them and that's why they were fleeing.
As soon as they were moved to the Stenkovac 1 and 2 refugee camps.

SloboSo they changed their account when they were transferred to the camps. When they came to the border, they still said they were running from the bombing

)

And a truly priceless bit about the Israeli doctors who tried to help the Kosovo Albanians.

(

SloboBut you never saw anyone who was obviously beaten or injured?

WitnessNo, in all the time I worked there.

SloboDid you see a woman who was a rape victim in that period?

WitnessClose to us there was an Israeli hospital. They were the best equipped. We often came to see that hospital. They had a lot of gynaecologists, internists, et cetera, but they left not long after. And the morning -- one morning I came and found that the Israeli hospital had disappeared, and I asked the policeman, "What's this?" And he told me that they left because there was a rape attempt against an Israeli woman doctor

)

Yep , you read it straight .

None of the Kosovo Albanian women had been raped by the Serb forces BUT the Kosovo Albanians tried to rape the Israeli doctors.

So they left

Me ? I blame it on the Jooooooooooooish doctors

DefenderofIslam

Nice try, but wrong! A Congress government investigation into the incident concluded that the train fire was an accident, but the objectivity of the judge in question has been widely disputed.

But even if one were to assume that the judge was right, the fact remains that at the time of the incident, it was accepted by everyone that the Muslims lit up the train, although some of the Indian Dhimmis suggested that the Hindus brought it on themselves with rowdy behavior in the train throughout their journey from Ayodhya to Gujarat.

I couldn't exactly make out what you were saying, but if you are suggesting that the RAW and Congress burnt down the train, you're simply another conspiracy theorist - this claim is right there with the 'Jews did 9/11' theories out there.

Mohammedans have been rioting ever since December 1991, when the Babri Masjid was demolished. The Shiv Sena gave them a hiding in Mumbai, and the Gujratis gave them a good thrashing in Gujarat after this incident. Since then, while there have been Muslim terror attacks elsewhere in India, Gujarat has been generally free.

Demonstrates what works.

Quoting of one disinformation session from Milosevic's own trial (with its intimidated witnesses) does not a truth make. I have to say it's the height of chutpah for a Serb to get on this board and deny rape as a tool of war against Kosovars, Bosnians and Croats during the War. Ridiculous, and beneath the dignity even of the worst kind of person.

Watching this is like watching somebody try to quote Hitler at Nurembourg.

Below is a SMALL PART of a report that can be found at http://www.unhcr.org/home/RSDCOI/3ae6a87a0.pdf

PLEASE NOTE: The posting of this report follows the posting of so-called "testimony" by ewha1 and following his/her serious of attacks last night.

SEE ALSO INDICTMENTS AGAINST KARADZIC AND MLADIC, AND THE CONVICTIONS OF THREE BOSNIAN SERBS WHO RAN BROTHERS AND RAPE CAMPS.

***

FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF YUGOSLAVIA

KOSOVO: RAPE AS A WEAPON OF "ETHNIC CLEANSING"

Map of all documented incidents of rape in Kosovo. (jpg)(103k)

Map of all documented incidents of rape in Kosovo. (pdf)(260k)

I. SUMMARY

II. RECOMMENDATIONS

To the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY):

To the United Nations:

To the Yugoslav Government:

To the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR):

III. GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AGAINST KOSOVAR ALBANIAN WOMEN

Background

The Shadow of Bosnia: An Atmosphere of Terror

Foreshadowing the Attacks: Propaganda against Albanian Women in Kosovo

Rape and other Forms of Sexual Violence as Weapons of Systematic "Ethnic Cleansing"

Home Invasions

Attacks in Flight

Rapes and Sexual Assaults of Women Held Hostage or Detained

IV. THE AFTERMATH: ONGOING ISSUES FACING KOSOVAR ALBANIAN WOMEN

The Consequences of Rape

Access to Justice

Reconstruction Programs and the Status of Women

To the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe:

To the European Union, the U.S. Government, and Other Donor Governments:

V. INTERNATIONAL AND NATIONAL LEGAL PROTECTIONS AGAINST RAPE AND OTHER

FORMS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE

Rape and Sexual Violence in Kosovo: Legal Analysis

VI. THE NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL RESPONSE

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

II. RECOMMENDATIONS

Women victims of rape and other forms of sexual violence in Kosovo demonstrated courage in speaking of the abuses they suffered. The international community should respond to their willingness to speak with an effort to assist the women in pursuing justice, recovering from trauma, and rebuilding their lives.

Particularly, Human Rights Watch makes the following recommendations:

To the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY):

* Conduct a diligent and independent investigation into the incidence and use of rape and other forms of sexual violence against women in Kosovo;.

* Take steps to ensure that those alleged to have committed rape or other forms of sexual violence during the conflict in Kosovo, and those in positions of political or command authority who are alleged to have acquiesced in such abuse, are indicted, taken into custody, prosecuted, and brought to justice by the ICTY.

* Ensure that gender-integrated teams investigating rape and other forms of sexual violence have competence in investigating rape and conducting interviews with rape victims. As the Office of the Prosecutor (OTP) moves to make the investigation and prosecution of rape and other forms of sexual violence a normal part of OTP procedure, efforts to enhance and develop staff expertise necessary for rape investigations and prosecutions should increase. Whenever possible, interviews of rape victims should be conducted by female investigators with training in rape investigations.

* Include examinations for evidence of rape in autopsies of female bodies conducted by ICTY forensic teams.

* Ensure that all witnesses are protected now and subsequently from possible reprisals.

To the United Nations:

* Establish a specialist unit within the Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights with a mission to develop expertise on the investigation of rape and other forms of sexual violence in conflict and the treatment of such victims. The unit would develop protocols for responding to rape in conflict, maintain a database of experts in the fields of investigation and trauma counseling, and monitor inclusion of rape and other forms of sexual violence in cases brought before tribunals and truth commissions internationally.

* Develop programs through the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) to assist women victims of rape and other forms of sexual violence and trauma in accessing job training programs, micro-credit programs, and psychological counseling programs in Kosovo.

To the Yugoslav Government:

* Cooperate with the ICTY by locating and arresting any person under indictment by the ICTY.

* Recognize the right of the ICTY to investigate all war crimes committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia, including the area of Kosovo, as stated in U.N. Security Council Resolution 827 (1993) and repeatedly reaffirmed with particular reference to the Kosovo crisis in U.N. Security Council Resolutions

1160, 1199, and 1207.

* Hand over individuals already indicted for war crimes who are residing on the territory of Serbia and/or Montenegro.

To the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR):

* Arrest without delay all persons present in Kosovo who have been or will be indicted by the ICTY for war crimes committed in Kosovo.

I. SUMMARY

On the evening of March 24, 1999, the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) began bombing the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. As Serbian police and Yugoslav Army forces continued brutal attacks on civilians, more than 800,000 ethnic Albanian refugees poured out of Kosovo, mostly into Albania and Macedonia. Exhausted and traumatized, they carried what few belongings they could grab before fleeing or being expelled. They also brought eyewitness accounts of atrocities committed against ethnic Albanian civilians inside Kosovo by Yugoslav soldiers, Serbian police, and paramilitaries.

Witnesses and victims told of summary executions, mass murders, destruction of civilian property, and other war crimes. In more hushed tones, refugees also spoke of rapes of ethnic Albanian women. These instances of sexual violence are the focus of this report.

Human Rights Watch began investigating the use of rape and other forms of sexual violence by all sides in the conflict in 1998 and continued to document rape accounts throughout the refugee crisis in 1999. After

NATO troops entered Kosovo in June 1999, Human Rights Watch returned to Kosovo to continue researching war crimes, including the use of sexual violence before, during, and after the NATO conflict.

In total, Human Rights Watch researchers conducted approximately seven hundred interviews between March and September 1999 on various violations of international humanitarian law.

The research found that rape and other forms of sexual violence were used in Kosovo in 1999 as weapons of war and instruments of systematic "ethnic cleansing." Rapes were not rare and isolated acts committed by individual Serbian or Yugoslav forces, but rather were used deliberately as an instrument to terrorize the civilian population, extort money from families, and push people to flee their homes. Rape furthered the goal of forcing ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.

In total, Human Rights Watch found credible accounts of ninety-six cases of sexual assault by Yugoslav soldiers, Serbian police, or paramilitaries during the period of NATO bombing, and the actual number is probably much higher. In six of these cases, Human Rights Watch was able to interview the victims in depth, and their testimonies are contained in this report. Human Rights Watch met two other women who acknowledged that they had been raped but refused to give testimony. And, Human Rights Watch documented six cases of women who were raped and subsequently killed.

The ninety-six cases also include rape reports deemed reliable by Human Rights Watch that were compiled by other nongovernmental organizations. The Center for the Protection of Women and Children, based in Pristina (Prishtina), interviewed and provided assistance to twenty-nine rape and sexual violence victims after June 1999. The Albanian Counseling Center for Women and Girls, an NGO in Albania, documented an additional twenty-eight rape cases through direct interviews with victims. The Yugoslavia-based Humanitarian Law Center provided testimony to Human Rights Watch about four cases.

And the Council for the Defense of Human Rights and Freedoms, Kosovo's largest human rights group, provided information on an additional four cases. To the extent possible, Human Rights Watch corroborated these accounts through interviews with dozens of nurses, doctors, eyewitnesses, and local human rights and women's rights activists.

Médécins Sans Frontières (MSF), with offices in Kosovo before and after the war, reported four cases of rape, and other medical personnel working in Kosovo and Albania confirmed an additional eight cases. Physicians for Human Rights, a U.S.-based human rights group, interviewed four victims of sexual violence, and Amnesty International documented another three cases of rape, although two of these three cases were also counted by Human Rights Watch.

It is important to note that some of these cases may have been double-counted by local and international organizations. Despite this, Human Rights Watch believes that the actual number of women raped in Kosovo between March and June 1999 was much higher than ninety-six. Kosovar Albanian victims of rape are generally reluctant to speak about their experiences, and those who remained in Kosovo throughout the conflict may not have had an opportunity to report abuses. At the same time, it should be noted that Human Rights Watch was not able to confirm the allegations of rape camps in Kosovo that were presented during the war by the U.S. and British governments, as well as by NATO.

In general, rapes in Kosovo can be grouped into three categories: rapes in women's homes, rapes during flight, and rapes in detention. In the first category, security forces entered private homes and raped women either in the yard, in front of family members, or in an adjoining room. In the second category, internally displaced people wandering on foot and riding on tractors were repeatedly stopped, robbed, and threatened by the Yugoslav Army, Serbian police, or paramilitaries. If families could not produce cash, security forces told them that their daughters would be taken away and raped; in some cases, even when families did provide money, their daughters were taken away. The third category of rapes took place in temporary detention centers, such as abandoned homes or barns.

With few exceptions, the rapes here documented by Human Rights Watch were gang rapes involving at least two perpetrators. In several cases, victims and witnesses identified the perpetrators as Serbian special police, in blue or blue-camouflage uniforms, or Yugoslav Army soldiers, in green military uniforms. The majority of rape cases, however, were evidently committed by Serbian paramilitaries, who wore various uniforms and often had bandanas, long knives, long hair, and beards. These paramilitary formations orked closely with official government forces, either the Serbian Ministry of Interior or the Yugoslav Army, throughout Kosovo.

The Serbian and Yugoslav authorities knew that their paramilitaries had used rape and other forms of sexual violence in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Yet, the paramilitaries were deployed to or allowed to operate in Kosovo by the Serbian and Yugoslav authorities apparently without any precautions being taken to prevent their committing further such war crimes.

The participation of Serbian and Yugoslav forces in gang rapes renders it unlikely that senior officers were unaware of the assaults. Rapes occurred frequently in the presence, and with the acquiescence, of military officers. Several rape victims actually reported the crimes to Yugoslav military officers. Yet there is no evidence that the Yugoslav Army or the Serbian Ministry of Interior made any attempt to apprehend or punish those responsible for the attacks. Despite this seeming dereliction of duty, many leading police and military officers from the Kosovo campaign have been honored or promoted within the Serbian and

Yugoslav forces since the end of the conflict. There is also no evidence that the Yugoslav Army or Serbian Ministry of Interior took any measures to prevent rape and other forms of sexual violence, such as issuing orders or warning troops that they would be punished for these crimes. Moreover, soldiers, police, and paramilitaries often raped in front of many

witnesses. In addition to actual rapes that took place in front of others, the process of pulling women out of refugee convoys often occurred in full view of other internally displaced persons (IDPs).

Although the terror of imminent and actual violence is behind Kosovar Albanian women, many now face its devastating consequences and a struggle for justice. Kosovar women sexually assaulted or raped by Yugoslav soldiers, Serbian paramilitaries, and police have suffered war crimes, torture, and some abuses that may have constituted crimes against humanity. The international community must now respond by seeking to identify and by indicting those responsible for these violations of humanitarian law. Without serious investigations of rape and sexual violence, and indictments and arrests of those with command responsibility and individual responsibility for these crimes, rape in the region will continue with impunity. Kosovar Albanian women are waiting for justice.

The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) has jurisdiction over the crimes committed in Kosovo. ICTY Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte has outlined a prosecution strategy that "focuses on leadership investigative targets, as well as perpetrators of particularly serious crimes or sexual violence in relation to the armed conflict."1 The Office of the Prosecutor issued indictments against Serbian leader

Slobodan Milosevic and three other top Serbian leaders and a general in the Yugoslav Army on May 24, 1999, for crimes against humanity. Not one of the indictments lists charges relating to the use of rape and other forms of sexual violence by their forces, although the investigations are ongoing. Since the entry of the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR), rapes of Serbian, Albanian, and Roma women by ethnic Albanians, sometimes by members of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), have also been documented.2 Human Rights Watch condemns these human rights violations and continues to document post-conflict abuses for a future report.3 However, rapes and other crimes of sexual violence committed since the entry of KFOR are beyond the scope of this report.

Specifically to investigate rape, Human Rights Watch visited the cities of Pec (Peje), Djakovica (Gjakove),

Podujevo (Podujeve), Mitrovica (Mitrovice), Decani (Decane), Vucitrn (Vushtrri), and Pristina, as well as many other villages throughout Kosovo.4 Human Rights Watch interviewed rape and sexual assault victims, witnesses to sexual violence, medical personnel, representatives of nongovernmental organizations, United Nations officials, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) experts, and human rights activists in Kosovo and Albania. Human Rights Watch drew its findings on rape and sexual violence from interviews with victims and eyewitnesses and the credible reports of human rights and other service organizations. Whenever possible, Human Rights Watch collected several accounts of the same event for purposes of corroboration.

1 Press Release, "Statement by Carla Del Ponte, Prosecutor of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia on the Investigation and Prosecution of Crimes Committed in Kosovo," September 29,

1999 (www.un.org/icty/pressreal/p437-e.html). 2 See Kosovo Human Rights Flash #50, "Violent Abuses by KLA Members," June 25, 1999, for information about the rape of an ethnic Albanian woman by five men believed to members of the KLA. See also Kosovo/Kosova: As Seen, As Told Part II, June to October

1999, Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) report, December 1999; and European

Roma Rights Center, Press Release, "The Current Situation for Roma in Kosovo," July 9, 1999. 3 See

Human Rights Watch, "Abuses against Serbs and Roma in the New Kosovo," A Human Rights Watch

Short Report, vol. 11, no. 10, August 1999. 4 For the purposes of consistency and clarity, this report uses

the Serbian spellings for all places in Kosovo. Also, although Human Rights Watch knows the identities

and locations of all of the victims and witnesses interviewed in this report, we have concealed identities

and names of villages where identification of names or locations would endanger the women involved.

III. GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE AGAINST KOSOVAR ALBANIAN WOMEN5

Background

The human rights abuses against Kosovar Albanians that leapt to international prominence during the NATO bombing campaign predated NATO's involvement by at least ten years. In 1989, the Serbian-controlled government in Belgrade suspended the autonomy guaranteed Kosovo by the 1974 constitution and initiated a crackdown on human rights. Mass firings of ethnic Albanian public sector workers ensued. The Serbian government replaced local Albanian police officers with special police units from the Serbian Ministry of the Interior (Ministarstvo Unutrasnjih Poslova), or MUP.

The Serbian government ran Kosovo as a police state for the rest of the 1990s, with political trials, police abuse, deaths in detention, and discrimination in health care, education, and employment. Numerous reports by Human Rights Watch and other international and domestic human rights organizations, such as the Council for the Defense of Human Rights and Freedoms, the Humanitarian Law Center, the Center for the Protection of Women and Children, and the Kosova Helsinki Committee, reported incidents of torture, political "disappearances," imprisonment of critics of the regime, and rape.6

Throughout the 1990s, the Kosovar Albanian community responded by creating their own parallel political structures. Under the leadership of Ibrahim Rugova, the ethnic Albanian population initially rejected a violent response to the abusive and discriminatory treatment inflicted upon them.

This began to change in 1997, when a hitherto little-known group called the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) demanded Kosovo's independence and began to ambush and attack police patrols in various parts of Kosovo, especially in the central Drenica region. The group gradually increased its armed actions, which prompted a rapid and sometimes brutal response by the Serbian police. The first major police operations occurred in late February and early March 1998 when, after attacks by the KLA in the area,

Serbian special police forces attacked three villages in Drenica, killing eighty-eight women and children.

The atrocities galvanized the ethnic Albanian community, and quickly turned the KLA into a sizable, although still disorganized, military force. It was from this time on that the fighting in Kosovo became an internal armed conflict for the purposes of international law, making Common Article 3 and Protocol II of
the Geneva Conventions applicable.7

Throughout 1998 and early 1999, there was ongoing fighting between the KLA and Serbian and Yugoslav forces that involved serious violations of international humanitarian law by both sides. The vast majority of these abuses were committed by Serbian and Yugoslav forces, such as indiscriminate shelling, the destruction of civilian property, and summary executions, but the KLA also committed war crimes
including executions of Serbian civilians and ethnic Albanians considered to be collaborators with the government. The government conducted two major counterinsurgency offensives: in May and June 1998 along the border with Albania, and July through September 1998 throughout most of central and western

Kosovo. An estimated 2,000 people were killed during the year, the majority of them ethnic Albanian civilians.8

Throughout this period, cases of rape were also reported. By the time the bombing began in March 1999, Sevdie Ahmeti, a human rights activist working for the Pristina-based Center for the Protection of Women and Children, had documented thirty-six incidents of rape committed by Serbian police and Yugoslav Army soldiers.9 The Humanitarian Law Center also received reports of two rapes in Decani committed by Serbian police.10 OSCE-KosovoVerification Mission (KVM) human rights officers, who were deployed in Kosovo from November 1998 to March 1999, also reported twenty-three rapes committed prior to the NATO intervention.11

In December 1998, Human Rights Watch conducted research into rape by both the KLA and government forces. Although very credible reports of rape emerged, including one rape of a Roma woman by Kosovar Albanians, Human Rights Watch was able to confirm only six cases: one in September 1998 in the Suva Reka (Suhareke) municipality, one in December 1998 in Djakovica municipality, two in the area of Decani (May and October 1998), and two cases in November 1998 in Pec. Evidence collected by Human Rights

Watch, the Center for the Protectionof Women and Children, and the OSCE-KVM human rights officers suggests, however, that Serbian security forces committed rapes and other forms of sexual violence throughout 1998.12

Following the NATO air strikes, reports of rape flooded the international media. On April 13, 1999, British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook claimed that Serbian forces had opened a "rape camp" near Djakovica.13 Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon made similar statements about rape camps allegedly set up in Djakovica.14 Cook's comments came one day after NATO attacked a train in Serbia, killing twenty civilians; some commentators charged that NATO was publicizing rape reports to whip up war fervor and distract attention from civilian casualties inflicted by NATO.15 NATO officials and NATO member states used the theme of human rights abuses generally, and rape specifically, to justify their policies in Yugoslavia.

Human Rights Watch found no evidence to suggest the existence of a rape camp at an army base in Djakovica or Hotel Karagac in Pec.16 While Human Rights Watch believes that it is critically important to denounce all human rights abuses in any conflict situation, we are concerned that NATO's use of rape to bolster support for the war relied on unconfirmed accounts of rape. Offering such accusations with little or no basis suggests that those invoking the abuses may have been more concerned with pursuing certain political goals than with ascertaining what happened to individual victims and acting to prevent or remedy the abuse. Historically, when the horror of rape has been invoked to serve political ends, neither the purpose nor the result was to ensure accountability.17

Throughout the refugee crisis, U.S. and British newspapers and radio programs carried interviews with individual women reportedly raped by Serbian police, soldiers, and paramilitaries. Although accounts in the media brought much-needed attention to the use of rape in the conflict, they also raised questions about when rape is a war crime, how rape functions in war, and whether women will have access to justice after the conflict. The documentation that follows answers many of these questions.

The Shadow of Bosnia: An Atmosphere of Terror

I wasn't afraid of the killing. I was afraid of the raping.18

Rape and other forms of sexual violence in Kosovo took place under the shadow of Bosnia and Herzegovina.19 Women in Kosovo knew that rape had been used as a tool of "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Human Rights Watch received numerous, though unconfirmed, reports that some Serbian paramilitary groups active during the Bosnian war, such as Arkan's Tigers and Vojislav Seselj's White Eagles, allegedly joined in the "ethnic cleansing" campaign in Kosovo. These groups had reputations for using rape as a weapon of war in Bosnia.20

The atmosphere of terror, heightened by published accounts and collective memories of recent mass and systematic rapes in Bosnia, motivated families to pack up and leave as quickly as possible. Although there were fewer rapes in Kosovo, both the threat of rape and actual rape were very much a part of the assault on Kosovo. The mere threat was enough to force women and families to flee. The fact of rape in Bosnia had already established the credibility of the threat. Women recounted to Human Rights Watch their fear that they and their daughters would be raped.

Rumors of rape circulated wildly as families attempted to flee their homes. Older women often dressed their daughters in loose clothing and headscarves in an attempt to disguise young girls as grandmothers. Other mothers smeared dirt and mud on their daughters' faces to render them unattractive. As one mother told Human Rights Watch, "I was most afraid for my daughter. I lost eighteen kilos during the war because I was afraid that my daughters might be raped."21 In the words of another woman, "The girls were afraid of the police and put on scarves. The police took off their scarves and pinched their cheeks and told them not to act like old women. The girls were screaming."22 According to a doctor in Pristina, "Rape was our greatest fear. Our main goal was to get our daughters-aged twenty-five, twenty-one, fourteen, and ten-out of the country."23

Foreshadowing the Attacks: Propaganda against Albanian Women in Kosovo

Women were very vulnerable and the Serbs knew that if they touched the women the men would react. This has been going on for ten years.24

The rapes and other forms of sexual violence perpetrated in Kosovo during the conflict did not surprise women's human rights experts. Sevdie Ahmeti, who documented human rights abuses against women in osovo forten years prior to the NATO bombing, had already collected thirty-six testimonies of rape by

Serbian special police units and Yugoslav Army soldiers committed in the period February 1998 to March 1999. Serb paramilitary forces and special police used rape on a number of occasions during 1998 to punish female family members of Kosovo Liberation Army supporters before the NATO air offensive.25

A Human Rights Watch investigator who researched rape in Kosovo before the NATO bombing campaign documented rapes of young women, particularly in the Drenica region, considered a KLA stronghold. In total, Human Rights Watch documented six cases of rape by Serbian forces during 1998, although evidence collected by Human Rights Watch, Physicians for Human Rights, and local human rights groups suggested that the real number was much higher.26

Official state propaganda in Yugoslavia in the decade preceding the war served to dehumanize and stereotype Kosovar Albanian women.27 Serbian propaganda contrasted Serbian women, viewed as "cultured, strong, and worthy of motherhood," with Albanian women, portrayed as "indiscriminately fecund."28 According to Ahmeti, "During the late 1980s there was tremendous propaganda against Albanian women-we were portrayed as open-legged, stupid, uneducated women ready to have sex."29

This attack on Albanian women in the state-controlled media fed Serbian nationalist hysteria, encouraging conflict and abuses. Combined with official propaganda denouncing Kosovar Albanian men as "terrorists," the images portrayed in the media manipulated the fears of the ethnic Serbian population.30

The nationalistic propaganda also exploited fears of Albanian population growth. Serbian media "pump[ed] out portraits of Albanian women as baby makers, calling their offspring `biological bombs,' labeling Albanian family life primitive and backward."31 Some young women victims of rape expressed fear that they could not expect tomarry following the attack. One purpose that rape in the war may have served was discouraging women from reproducing in the future.

Rape and other Forms of Sexual Violence as Weapons of Systematic "Ethnic Cleansing"

The paramilitary said to us - You are in our hands, and until we fulfill our obligation to steal and take your women, we will not let you go.32

Police, soldiers, and paramilitaries raped women throughout Kosovo; the attacks occurred under a variety of circumstances. The most common circumstances that emerged from the testimonies of victims of rape and sexual violence and from corroborating accounts provided by eyewitnesses were rapes in women's homes, rape during flight from the country, and rape while in detention. In one typical scenario, government forces entered women's homes and raped them either in the garden, in an adjoining room, or in front of family members. Women victims and eyewitnesses also reported rapes that occurred as soldiers and paramilitaries extorted money from Kosovars attempting to flee the country. When families could not produce money, and sometimes even when they did, wives, sisters, and daughters were forced to leave with police or soldiers. Some number of those women experienced rape and sexual assault. In at least one case, the attack took place in front of the entire group of internally displaced persons (IDPs) on the road. Finally, in another common scenario documented by Human Rights Watch, Serb soldiers and paramilitaries separated women from the men and held the women and children hostage in schools and various abandoned buildings. During the period of captivity, soldiers and paramilitaries took some of the women to other sites to torture them sexually.

Almost all of the rape testimonies collected by Human Rights Watch were gang rapes, involving more than one perpetrator. The identities of perpetrators, however, were frequently difficult to discern. Men and women interviewed struggled to distinguish between police and paramilitaries. Victims described perpetrators of rape as dressed in camouflage outfits and sporting black masks or scarves. Yugoslav Army soldiers generally wore uniforms, typically green camouflage; special police units generally wore blue camouflage uniforms. Based on the accounts of victims, it appears that paramilitaries perpetrated at least five of the rapes documented by Human Rights Watch researchers based in Albania, Macedonia, and Kosovo. Yugoslav Army soldiers and Serbian special police perpetrated two rapes recounted to Human Rights Watch by victims. In six cases identified by Human Rights Watch, women were first gang raped
and then murdered. Paramilitaries perpetrated all six of these cases.

Accounts of biting also pervaded the refugees' and internally displaced persons' (IDPs) stories. Nurses who reated rape victims and eyewitnesses who saw women returning after long absences reported that many of he women had visible teeth-marks on their arms and exposed flesh.33 One nurse told Human Rights Watch that armed Serbian men in dark blue uniforms dragged young girls into another room in a house sheltering refugees in the village of Beleg.34 She continued, "They raped them. They were covered with bites. I tried to wash them."35 Sevdie Ahmeti, who worked closely with survivors of rape and sexual violence after the conflict, confirmed this finding. Afteraccompanying several rape survivors to their gynecological exams, she told Human Rights Watch, "There were bites all over the bodies of the victims, especially the raped women. The bites were on their breasts and legs and especially near their intimate places."36

In all, Human Rights Watch found ninety-six credible cases of rape and other forms of sexual violence. All of these accounts stemmed from direct victim or witness testimony gathered by Human Rights Watch or other local nongovernmental organizations working in the field. Human Rights Watch investigators interviewed six women who survived rape and other forms of sexual violence committed by Yugoslav soldiers, or Serbian police and paramilitaries during the conflict.37 Human Rights Watch also met with two women who acknowledged that they had been raped but refused to give testimony to investigators. Human Rights Watch discovered six additional cases of women who were raped and subsequently murdered.

The Center for the Protection of Women and Children, a Pristina-based NGO, interviewed and provided assistance to twenty-nine rape and sexual violence victims. The Albanian Counseling Center for Women and Girls, an NGO in Tirana, Albania, documented an additional twenty-eight rape cases through direct interviews with victims. The Council for the Defense of Human Rights and Freedoms provided Human Rights Watch with four additional cases. And the Humanitarian Law Center reported four rapes. To the extent possible, Human Rights Watch corroborated these accounts through interviews with dozens of nurses, doctors, eyewitnesses, and local human rights and women's rights activists. A psychologist from Médécins Sans Frontières (MSF) working in Pec with victims reported four cases.

Medical personnel working in Kosovo and Albania confirmed an additional eight cases of rape.38 Physicians for Human Rights published extracts from four direct interviews with victims of sexual violence.39 Amnesty International also documented three rapes of women held in a village in the region of Suva Reka during a three day period beginning April 21, 1999, although it appears to be the same incident reported by Human Rights Watch.40 It is important to note that some of these cases may have been double-counted by local and international organizations. In spite of problems of tallying numbers of attacks, Human Rights Watch believes, for the reasons described below, that these cases represent only a mall fraction of the incidents of sexual violence that actually occurred for the reasons described below.

Human Rights Watch sought to interview numerous witnesses in cities throughout Kosovo, with particular emphasis on those cities reported to have had rape camps or multiple attacks. But it proved difficult to find women able to testify about rapes that occurred in their own town or village. According to eyewitnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, for example, many of the women raped in Djakovica came from Mitrovica. Likewise, many of the women raped in Mitrovica came from villages in the surrounding area. The result was geographical chaos, with residents from one village victimized in another village perhaps one hundred kilometers away from their homes.

The cultural stigma attached to rape further complicated the documentation efforts. Because women in Kosovo only reluctantly spoke of sexual attacks, Human Rights Watch believes that the cases documented in this report represent only a fraction of the incidents of sexual violence which occurred. As one surgeon told Human Rights Watch, "Many women were raped. This is a patriarchal place and women find it very difficult to talk about these things."41 In all, men and women interviewed by Human Rights Watch throughout Kosovo reported seeing forty-nine women taken away from refugee convoys, houses, and barns by Serbian police, soldiers, or paramilitaries. Some unknown number of these women may have been raped. Some women who returned after being held told friends and relatives that Serbian authorities had only interrogated them. Others reported that the Serbian authorities forced them to "make coffee," a phrase that some experts believed was a euphemism for sexual assault.42 Still other women told of being forced to strip naked and being subjected to searches. These cases, supported only by hearsay evidence could not be corroborated by Human Rights Watch. However, the large number of women taken away, some of whom never returned, does indicate that additional abuses may have occurred.43

Home Invasions

Soldiers, police, and paramilitaries raped women in their homes. In one case in Pec, witnesses told Human

Rights Watch that six armed and uniformed Serb men entered a house on June 12, 1999, around 9:00 p.m., two days before NATO entered the city. Before murdering six members of the family (aged five, six, seven, twelve, thirteen, and twenty-eight), the men raped one of the wives, a twenty-eight-year-old mother. Her sister-in-law, the mother of three of the murdered children, survived a chest wound and witnessed th
killings. She told Human Rights Watch, They were wearing military clothes and had black scarves on their heads. They took my sister-in-law into the front room, and they were hitting her and telling her to shut up. The children were screaming, and they
also screamed at the children. She was with the paramilitary for one half hour. She was resisting, and they beat her, and the children could hear her screaming. I could only hear what was going on. I heard them slapping her. The children did not understand that they were raping her. After they raped my sister-in-law, they put her in line with us and shot her.44

Another family member, who was present and was interviewed separately, told Human Rights Watch:

When we got home, they ordered us to sit on the couch. They told my sister-in-law to stand up and come with them. They took her to the bathroom and raped her. My mother was near her in another room-she is an invalid. She heard them saying "faster, faster" to my sister-in-law. I asked my mother and she said that hey "dehumanized" her.45

In another case documented by human rights investigators of the Pec Council for the Defense of Human

Rights and Freedoms, a twenty-year-old woman was raped in her home in Mitrovica by six local policemen. According to the victim's testimony given to the council, police took the woman and a fourteen-year-old girl into another room away from the family, where they raped the twenty-year-old. The younger girl resisted and one policeofficer allegedly asked her age. She responded that she was only fourteen. The police officer told the others to leave her alone since they had older women available.

Although they forced her to strip naked, the police did not rape the fourteen-year-old.46

On June 12, in the city of Djakovica, six Serb paramilitaries entered an apartment building housing approximately 250 people. A.H., who lived in the building with her husband and son, described the sexual assault of her sister to Human Rights Watch:

After they burned my father's house, my father and the family took shelter in my building. [One paramilitary] told my father to give all our jewelry or "I'll take your daughter." [The paramilitary] had long hair with a pony tail and a big machine gun and ammo belt. They took my sister into another room because my father said he had no money. They took her in another room in the flat, locked the door, and told her to take off her clothes. She was seventeen.

My sister took off her tee-shirt, but they told her, "No, not that part, take off the lower part." She took off her pants and her panties. She was having her period.

I heard everything through the wall, and my sister told me what happened afterwards. The walls are very thin. I heard my sister begging them, "Please in the name of God, if you have a sister or a wife, don't touch me." I got close to the door and I heard him say, "You have your period so you are worth nothing." She looked like she had come back from the dead. She was gone for ten minutes, but it felt like days. Other than my sister, five other girls were abused [in our building], all of them very young.47

A psychologist for Médécins Sans Frontières (MSF) counseling rape survivors in Pec, Colette Vercelletti, also reported cases of rape in women's homes. In three cases, women told her that they were raped in their own homes and their families were forced to watch.48 Also in the town of Pec, investigators with the Council for the Defense of Human Rights and Freedoms collected testimony indicating that three local girls had been raped and then killed.49 Human Rights

Watch was unable to confirm these cases independently.

Attacks in Flight

Throughout the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, an estimated 800,000 ethnic Albanians were forced out of the province by government forces. Tens of thousands more were internally displaced. During this time, long cordons of civilians were ushered along roads from villages to larger cities, and then out of Kosovo, usually to Albania or Macedonia. In some cases, refugee columns were sent back from the border to their place of origin. During these treks, those seeking refuge were repeatedly stopped, harassed, robbed, and sometimes beaten or killed by paramilitaries, police, or the army. Human Rights Watch also documented thirty-five cases where womenwere pulled out of line and taken away by government forces. In some cases, the women returned after several hours. In other cases, the women did not return. Persons interviewed by Human Rights Watch reported paying exorbitant sums to free young women held by police and paramilitaries.50

One young woman told Human Rights Watch: About twenty tractors were crowded together inside the village in a field. The paramilitaries shot at the first tractor so the tractors would stop. The paramilitaries came closer and separated the men over fifteen [years old] from the women. They took the women's jewelry and money and threatened us. They said, "Now come, we're going to have sex with you." I gave them 500 Deutsch Marks. They didn't take me because the other women stood up and grabbed me and they all gave money so I wouldn't be taken away. The Serbs hit me in the back.51

Some families reported hiding in the forest for months, only to be forced later to join refugee columns.

According to one woman, who gave birth in the mountains without medical treatment, Serbian soldiers and police attacked a group of internally displaced persons who had taken shelter on a pig farm near Vucitrn. After beating the woman's two-year-old son and several others, she said, the police took four women and forced them to board an army truck. She told Human Rights Watch: I saw the women pulled by force into the Serb truck and while they were in the truck we heard them screaming. We could not see because the truck was closed. There were four women, two of them were approximately thirty years old, and the others were twenty and twenty-two. I knew them. The women were on the truck for one hour. The women came off the truck like they were insane, like they had lost their minds. They could not talk about anything.52 Sexual assaults included sexually threatening full body searches. One woman from Dobrotin (Dobratin) told Human Rights Watch that police came to a small village where she and her children had taken shelter for seven weeks during the NATO bombing campaign.

The police came and surrounded us and demanded money and gold from us. They took our tee-shirts up and touched our breasts and our legs and demanded money. They were touching us and demanding money. Those who had no money-their daughters were taken away. The daughters were held for five hours.53

One rape victim recounted to Human Rights Watch how she was dragged off a tractor by a Serb paramilitary near the border village of Zur (Zhur) and sexually assaulted in front of dozens of other refugees. The victim, a thirty-year-old mother traveling with her mother, mother-in-law, and two children, told Human Rights Watch:

Two uniformed Serbian men stopped us. A big guy with red hair called me from the tractor. The red-haired one came around the tractor and said, "You," pointing at me. When he told me to get offthe tractor, I didn't. Then he yelled, "You! Get off!" My three-year-old son was asleep on my lap. He kept yelling, "Get off! Get off!" He pulled me off the tractor and ripped my clothes. His pants were already open and his penis was out. He tore off my bra. I started screaming and crying. The other Serb came close and pointed his automatic weapon at my chest. I was wearing dimije [baggy pants] so they'd think I war old. The red-haired one took my pants off, tearing the drawstring. He told me to sit down. He took the 10 DM that I had with me. He took off his pants and pulled me close to him. We were right next to the tractor, next to the driver's cabin. I had my period. When he took off my pants, he saw the pads with blood on them, so he didn't have sex with me. Instead he turned me around and grabbed my breasts, trying me on the other side [anal rape]. I contracted myself very tightly and he didn't succeed. He may have ejaculated. I don't know. It took three or four minutes, then he told me that I could get back on the tractor.54

Witnesses to this attack, which occurred on June 2, 1999, corroborated the account and provided additional, credible details of the incident. A tractor driver who passed that same point later in the day, as well as his other passengers on the tractor, corroborated the description of the two uniformed men. One eyewitness to the sexual assault, an eighteen-year-old man from Djinovce (Gjiaoc) in the Suva Reka municipality, told Human Rights Watch: He took her onto the asphalt road and raped her right there in front of everyone. Only one Serb raped her.

The other Serb hit people with the butt of his automatic weapon and said, "Silence, silence!" We all averted our eyes. It took three or four minutes. He did it right next to the tractor.55

Other women and girls seized from the lines were forced into cars, driven away, and raped or sexually assaulted. Serbian forces grabbed a twenty-two-year-old woman from Mitrovica from the line of fleeing refugees and drove her away in a white Volkswagen Golf. She told Human Rights Watch: It happened while I was in line with the people. It was April 14th when we left our house and on the 15th we were walking near Djakovica. They say it was only two kilometers from the border. We arrived at four o'clock in the morning. We had a rest until six o'clock in the morning in a building close to the road. The border to Albania was closed. Serb police came with trucks and put us in the trucks and said that they would take us back to Kosovo because the border was closed. In another village they told us to get off the truck and we started walking again. We met Serb paramilitaries. There were five or six cars of them. They approached my uncle and separated him. They took his gold and his money from him. Then they came up to me. I was arm in arm with my brother and my mother was behind me. [The paramilitary] came up to me and asked, "What is he to you?" and I said that he is my brother. He took my hand and told me to get in his car. I was so surprised. I did not want to walk. He told me not to refuse or there would be lots of victims. He swore at me and said, "Whore, get in the car." I could not say good-bye to my family. When I got in the car I saw another girl. We were two girls, and there were two uniformed Serbian men.

It was nine or ten o'clock at night. We were away from the line by several meters. He told us to get out. The other girl was taken by the driver and I was taken by the other. He told me not to scream and to take off my clothes. He took off his clothes and told me to suck his thing. I did not know what to do. He took my head and put it near him. He started to beat me. I lost consciousness. When Icame to I saw him over me. I had great pain. I was screaming and scratching the ground from the pain. Another man came with a car and he got over me. The other man with the car asked the first one why he was treating this whore so good. I was crying from the pain and he was laughing the whole time. The second one got off me and told me to put on my clothes. I couldn't find them.

Just as I got dressed another one came and took me to another place a couple of meters away and he started with the same words and did the same things the first one did. He kept me there for several minutes and then told me to wear my clothes so I [looked like I did when I left the line]. He told me not to tell anyone or they would take me for good and shoot my family.

In every part of the World where muslims are in significant number, a low intensity civil war is going on, and this is going to be fully blown into a civil war with the increase of muslim population, just the way how in a majority Muslim state of Kashmir the half a million Hindus were driven out of their ancestral land, similarly the muslims are driving the Buddhists out of the souther thailand....
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ANd Ms Morgans knowledge about the world as I said is very inaccurate is again proved when she says that Muslims were burnt in Trains, ..outright lie.....It was 55 Hindus who were brunt alive by the muslims...which resulted in rioting, the only time Hindus can retaliate so good that from the next time onwards..there are no such incidents....in the state of Gujarat.....
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this is waht the muslims pray, Mohamamd you are my master and the only master send by GOD, to whom we are alwas slaves..
there prayer looks more of a slave reading his allegiance, and Quran a enslavement manual.....
The world should recognize that Islam is a politial ideology far worse than Nazism, .....only then can a good policy be formulated to counter it...as long as it doesnt happen the muslim will run amock spawning civil wars....
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I hope that the mad man of Iran and the terrorists from Pakisthan strike with a nuke....the sooner the better for the world, or else the muslims will increase their numbers in Europe and finally take over their immigrated countries without a fight....and the ruthlessness of Islamic rule is very well evident in the complete absence of the sense of history among the conquered people, who will never be able to break the shackels of it again......

Serb Gang-Rapes in Kosovo Exposed

(New York, March 21, 2000) -- Commanding officers bear criminal responsibility for a pattern of gang-rapes by Serbian and Yugoslav forces in Kosovo during the NATO bombing campaign, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today.
Human Rights Watch documented 96 cases of rape by Serbian and Yugoslav forces against Kosovar Albanian women immediately before and during the 1999 bombing campaign, and believes that many more incidents of rape have gone unreported.

The report said that rapes were not rare and isolated acts committed by individuals, but rather were used deliberately as an instrument to terrorize the civilian population, extort money from families, and push people to flee their homes. Virtually all of the sexual assaults Human Rights Watch has documented were gang rapes involving at least two perpetrators.

The 37-page report is the first to combine all credible reporting on rape during the Kosovo conflict, and includes a map (in PDF format)of all documented incidents of rape in Kosovo.

"These are not occasional incidents committed by a few crazy men," said Regan Ralph, executive director of the Women's Rights Division at Human Rights Watch. "Rape was used as an instrument of war in Kosovo, and it should be punished as such. The men who committed these terrible crimes must be brought to justice."

Human Rights Watch said its research did not confirm the allegations that Serbian and Yugoslav forces had set up "rape camps" in Pec or Djakovica. The organization criticized NATO, the U.S. government, and the British government for spreading unconfirmed information about rape while the NATO bombing campaign was underway.

Since the end of the war, rapes of Serbian, Albanian, and Roma women by ethnic Albanians -- sometimes by members of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) -- have also been documented. Human Rights Watch condemns these human rights violations and continues to document post-conflict abuses for future reports. However, rapes and other crimes of sexual violence committed since the NATO-led troops entered Kosovo are beyond the scope of this report.

The report says that rapes in Kosovo took three basic forms: rapes in women's homes, rapes during flight, and rapes in detention.

In the first category, security forces entered private homes and raped women either in the yard, in front of family members, or in an adjoining room. In the second category, internally displaced people wandering on foot and riding on tractors were repeatedly stopped, robbed, and threatened by the Yugoslav Army, Serbian police, or paramilitaries. If families could not produce cash, security forces told them that their daughters would be taken away and raped; in some cases, even when families did provide money, their daughters were taken away. The third category of rapes took place in temporary detention centers, such as abandoned homes or barns.

The majority of rape cases were evidently committed by Serbian paramilitaries, who wore various uniforms and often had bandanas, long knives, long hair, and beards. These paramilitary formations worked closely with official government forces, either the Serbian Ministry of Interior or the Yugoslav Army, throughout Kosovo. In several cases, victims and witnesses identified the perpetrators as Serbian special police, in blue or blue camouflage uniforms, or Yugoslav Army soldiers, in green military uniforms. Several rape victims actually reported the crimes to Yugoslav military officers.

Human Rights Watch called on the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia to indict not only the perpetrators of rape, but also their commanding officers.

"Women in Kosovo are waiting for justice, and so far none of the Kosovo indictments have included sex crimes," said Regan Ralph, executive director of the Women's Rights Division at Human Rights Watch. "The sooner there are investigations and prosecutions, the sooner these women can begin to rebuild their lives."

Human Rights Watch was able to interview six rape victims in depth, and their testimonies are contained in this report. Human Rights Watch met two other women who acknowledged that they had been raped but refused to give testimony. Human Rights Watch documented six cases of women who were raped and subsequently killed. The ninety-six cases also include rape reports deemed reliable by Human Rights Watch that were compiled by other nongovernmental organizations.

Human Rights Watch believes that the actual number of women raped in Kosovo between March and June 1999 is much higher than ninety-six. Due to strong social taboos, Kosovar Albanian victims of rape are generally reluctant to speak about their experiences, and those who remained in Kosovo throughout the conflict may not have had an opportunity to report abuses.
TESTIMONIES OF RAPE VICTIMS FROM KOSOVO

Women and girls were pulled from lines of refugees and sexually assaulted, sometimes in front of other refugees. B.B., a twenty-two year old woman from Mitrovica told Human Rights Watch:

It happened while I was in line with the people. It was April 14th when we left our house and on the 15th we were walking near Djakovica... We met Serb paramilitaries. ..They approached my uncle and separated him. They took his gold and his money from him. Then they came up to me...He took my hand and told me to get in his car. ... He told me not to refuse or there would be lots of victims. He swore at me and said, "Whore, get in the car..." He told me not to scream and to take off my clothes. He took off his clothes and told me to suck his thing. I did not know what to do. He took my head and put it near him. He started to beat me. I lost consciousness. When I came to I saw him over me. I had great pain. I was screaming and scratching the ground from the pain. Another man came with a car and he got over me. The other man with the car asked the first one why he was treating this whore so good. I was crying from the pain and he was laughing the whole time. The second one got off me and told me to put on my clothes. I couldn't find them. Just as I got dressed another one came and took me to another place a couple of meters away and he started with the same words and did the same things the first one did. He kept me there for several minutes and then told me to wear my clothes so I [looked like I did when I left the line]. He told me not to tell anyone or they would take me for good and shoot my family. The men wore masks. They wore camouflage clothes and they were carrying weapons and knives on their belts. They said that they were paid to do this. I begged him [the first rapist] to kill me but he didn't want to.

Z.T., a twenty-three-year-old woman, was being held in a house in Drenica by special Serbian forces:

I was held in a room full of women. The police came, and gestured for me to come. A policeman made me take off my clothes and he found a note that I was hiding in my underwear on which I had my husband's telephone number in Switzerland. He tore up the note and started swearing at me. I went back to the group of women and the same policeman came back and said, "come here." He took me far away from the other women and did whatever he wanted with me.

A group of twenty-seven women in the Drenica region were held by Serb paramilitaries in a small barn. -V.B., a twenty-one year old, was seven months pregnant when she was gang raped by Serb paramilitaries:

They put us in a small barn with hay in it. Then the four men came into the barn and slammed the door and pointed machine guns at us. They asked for gold, money, and whatever we had. We gave whatever we had. But they were still torturing us. They would take a girl, they kept her outside for half an hour, and after that they would bring one back and then they would take another. Then they took me. I was pregnant. I was holding my son. They took him away from me and gave him to my mother. They told me to get up and follow them. I was crying and screaming, "Take me back to my child!" They took me to another room. It was so bad I almost fainted. I can't say the words they said. They tortured me. Because I was pregnant, they asked me where my husband was... One of them said to another soldier, "Kick her and make the baby abort." They did this to me four times-they took me outside to the other place. Three men took me one by one. Then they asked me, "Are you desperate for your husband?" and said, "Here we are instead of him."

In Pec, six armed and uniformed Serb men entered a house two days before NATO entered the city. Before murdering six members of her family, the men raped one of the women, a twenty-eight year old mother. Her sister-in-law witnessed the rape and the murders:

They were wearing military clothes and had black scarves on their heads. They took my sister-in-law into the front room, and they were hitting her and telling her to shut up. The children were screaming, and they also screamed at the children. She was with the paramilitary for one half- hour. She was resisting, and they beat her, and the children could hear her screaming. I could only hear what was going on. I heard them slapping her. The children did not understand that they were raping her. After they raped my sister-in-law, they put her in line with us and shot her.

It's a question of how many reports you'd like to try to deny.

From Correspondent Eileen O'Connor

TIRANA, Albania (CNN) -- She is a Kosovar medical student who can only be identified by a nickname -- Mer. Her family remains behind as she goes from refugee to refugee, undertaking one of the most difficult missions of war.

Mer is gathering evidence of war crimes committed against the people of Kosovo -- particularly rape.

"I take their names and their ages and the dates," she explained.

The stories she hears are horrifying.

Vassar, for example, was not a victim of rape, but an eyewitness. Told by Serb police to leave her home, she gathered her young boys and left the small town of Drina on the family tractor. They joined a column of other families that was approached by Serb militiamen outside of Djakovica.
women
Gegar, left, and her cousin

Soldiers in uniforms, with red and gray kerchiefs on their heads, rounded up the young women, Vasser said. Later, Vasser and the others left the column to try to find the young women. She said she saw the girls lying in a field where the soldiers were raping them.

Vassar and her neighbors were forced to return to the line. The girls came back later, she said, with their clothes in shreds.

Shame keeps victims silent

These kinds of accounts from witnesses, Mer said, are too common to ignore. But accounts from actual victims are nearly impossible to find. The shame that keeps rape victims silent even in the West is especially acute among these Muslim families. Often victims who do come forward will describe incidents stopping just short of rape.

Vilora Gegar said she was taken at gunpoint by Serb police several weeks ago, before fleeing her country.

"They told me to take my clothes off," she said. "I refused."

The Serb police held her by her hair and beat her, Gegar said, taunting her by saying she should get the Americans to protect her. She said she still has back pain from the blows of rifle butts.
woman
Doctors say many of the refugees are suffering from mental trauma, but their physical needs must be taken care of first

Gegar's cousin said she witnessed four young girls taken away by Serb militiamen wearing masks.

"They were sisters between 19 and 25 years old," she said. "Only their father was left. We came here and I never saw them again."

Survival comes first

International doctors seeing refugees at makeshift clinics or hospitals in the Albanian border town of Kukes said they have seen girls so traumatized that the doctors suspect they were raped -- but they cannot ask.

As Dr. Jeff Colyer explained, it is simply not appropriate for a Western male to bring up the subject with the ethnic Albanian women.

"The additional problem is that people are more concerned about food and shelter and just living," Colyer said. (Audio 148 K/12 sec. AIFF or WAV sound)

Many refugees who make it across the border enter the hospital suffering from severe dehydration and exposure. Their psychological needs become secondary.

But international investigators and doctors in the Kosovo refugee camps said it is difficult to have any doubt that the violation and rape of women has become a weapon of choice in Kosovo, as it was during the Bosnian conflict.

"I WANT FRESH GIRLS"

Signs of Rape Scar Kosovo

By Peter Finn
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, June 27, 1999; Page A1

PRIZREN, Yugoslavia, June 26 – At 8:15 on the evening of June 9, three days before NATO troops arrived in this city, a drunken Serbian paramilitary waving a gun entered a house where 13 ethnic Albanians were sheltered. He corralled the frightened people in a single room, and started looking over the women.

There were three young women – a 25-year-old hairdresser; her sister, a 29-year-old schoolteacher; and a 24-year-old new mother, a neighbor of the sisters who held in her arms a 4-month-old daughter. The paramilitary settled his eyes on the hairdresser and said, "You, out."

In the hallway, he forced her to strip and threatened to kill her if she shouted, the woman recalled in graphic detail during an interview last week. "He put his finger inside me to see if I was a virgin," she said, and then he raped her. She was later returned bleeding to the room where the others, including her mother and father, sat helpless and horrified.

"I want fresh girls," the paramilitary, who was wearing a light green uniform, said in fluent Albanian. The sexual assaults would continue for another hour before a Yugoslav soldier came upon the scene and, enraged by what he saw, beat and drove off the militiaman as he attempted to rape the new mother.

"Only when I'm sleeping is there silence in my heart," said the hairdresser as she sat in her home. Her parents remained outside during the interview because they cannot bear to hear her talk about what happened.

Ever since ethnic Albanian refugees began streaming out of the province in late March at the start of a Serb-led Yugoslav offensive and NATO bombing campaign, there have been allegations of systematic rape by Yugoslav and Serbian forces. During the war, the State Department reported evidence that two locations in Kosovo – a Yugoslav army camp in Djakovica in the southern part of the Serbian province and a hotel in the western city of Pec – were used as rape camps.

Reporting across Kosovo since the arrival of NATO troops has yielded no conclusive evidence to support the existence of such camps or the use of rape by Yugoslav forces as a systematic weapon of war, as it was during the conflict in Bosnia in 1992-95. Although there are indications that women, as well as other refugees, were held at facilities the State Department claimed could be rape camps, visits to the locations turned up no testimony or physical affirmation that rape occurred.

However, it is clear on the basis of interviews with women and evidence left at several sites by departing Yugoslav forces that sexual violence was common in Kosovo during the war. In some cases, private homes taken over by security forces after the expulsion of their ethnic Albanian owners and police stations occupied by Yugoslav forces were used to detain women and carry out assaults and sexual torture.

At a home in Orahovac, for example, refugees returned to find women's blood-stained clothing, restraints, used condoms and other signs that the basement and attic had been used for sexual assaults. A number of women who were detained by Yugoslav forces in Orahovac remain missing. Elsewhere, such as in the provincial capital, Pristina, war crimes investigators have found evidence of rape at police stations and are examining stains on mattresses.

Rape is a deeply sensitive subject in ethnic Albanian Kosovo, a Muslim and largely traditional society, where a sexual assault can permanently stigmatize a woman, shaming her family and ruining her marriage or prospects of marriage. Gathering first-hand accounts of rape has proved very difficult for war crimes investigators, and the scale of sexual assaults here may never be fully known.

"Women lie and say nothing happened," said Vjolca Kastratit, a nurse at the hospital in Djakovica. "It is very embarrassing for them and for their families."

Yet the anger that many ethnic Albanians feel over of the destruction of their lives is propelling some, like the women in Prizren, to speak to strangers about the most intimate of violations. Indeed, the two sisters who were interviewed said that if it were not for their father's anguish, they would gladly allow their names to be published. The Washington Post does not identify victims of sexual assault without their permission.

"I am proud to tell my story," said the older sister. "I would like to tell everybody I was raped so people will know what that Serb did. But my father doesn't allow it. . . . He is drinking all the time. It is very tough on him."

Across Kosovo, the extent of the horrors that occurred under Yugoslav repression is being revealed as refugees race home, and this has been the case with allegations of rape. In the yard of her mother's home in Orahovac last week, Labimote Shabani, 20, burned pornographic magazines, used condoms, bloody rugs and torn women's underwear. Shabani returned to her home from Albania, where she was a refugee, and discovered what appeared to be a sex dungeon in her mother's basement.

In a corner of the basement, a steel stake has been driven into the dirt floor and ropes formed into nooses are tied to the stake. Women's makeup, a sheer blouse and stockings litter the floor. A mattress has been thrown into the corner, and outside, a blood-soaked sheepskin rug lies on the ground. In the attic, Shabani found noosed ropes tied to the beams and chains. Pornographic pictures were tacked to the walls.

"This is my mother's home and we cannot live with this stink," she said, explaining why she was burning what might be evidence of crimes. "I can't stand to see this."

At least four women are missing from Orahovac, according to residents. In late April, Hajdije Spahiju, 33, a tall, gregarious woman, was picked up by security forces who arrived at her mother's house in a jeep. She was dragged away as family members screamed. Hajdije had no political affiliations, relatives said, although she may have dated a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army.

"Only Hajdije was taken that day," said Zejnepe Spahiju, her cousin. She has not been seen since.

If physical evidence of rapes existed at the sites identified by the State Department, it has been swept away. Farmers in Djakovica who live near a former shelter for Serbian refugees from Croatia that later became a military staging area said that women were held there and could be heard screaming. But a walk through the compound, which has been destroyed by NATO bombs, produced no physical evidence. The buildings were littered with the traditional clothing of ethnic Albanian women, children's toys and coloring books. Other army facilities in the area also lacked evidence of abuse.

The Kosovo Liberation Army, the ethnic Albanian guerrilla force, now occupies the Hotel Karagac in Pec – the other site named by the State Department – and fighters there said they had found pornographic magazines, condoms and women's clothing when they entered the hotel. But they said that had discarded the evidence.

Shpesa Gashi, who lives down the street from the hotel, said that on the day before NATO troops arrived in Pec, two Yugoslav soldiers entered her house and hustled her and her 17-year-old sister, Shqipe, into a jeep. The soldiers, whom Gashi said were from Bosnia, told her family the women were being taken away for questioning.

The women said they were driven around for about an hour and the soldiers threatened that if they didn't agree to have sex with them, they would be taken to some majors who would rape them. The soldiers asked if the women had boyfriends and if the women were virgins.

The more senior soldier, Gashi said, was alternatively nervous, polite and threatening. The women said they begged him to let them go in the name of the cross he wore around his neck. After driving around Pec and its surrounding countryside, the women said, they were released untouched.

In Prizren, the rapes at the home where the two sisters and their neighbors were sheltered occurred in a neighborhood surrounded by Yugoslav forces during a nighttime operation. But the paramilitary who carried out the assaults appeared to be acting without the approval of his comrades.

When the Yugoslav soldier arrived, according to the women, he started to kick and punch the paramilitary and threw him out of the house. The soldier, whose name they recalled as Vladan, then started to cry, the women said.

"He said, 'I'm so sorry. I have sisters. I have a wife. I have children,' " said the young mother, Lumturije, who said he kissed her hand and held her baby as he wept. "One was so bad, and one was so polite, like an angel. He saved us." Military police later took the women to the Prizren hospital where they said they received a perfunctory examination from a Serbian gynecologist.

The three women, who saw a German military doctor for their first full medical examination on Friday, have recently torn hymens and irritated vaginas, the physician said.

Other wounds were also evident. Their moods shifted suddenly between defiance and fear. They said they wanted to find journalists to tell their story, but they rarely leave the house because they think everyone on the street is looking at them. And the effect on their families is also profound. The father of the sisters is quiet and withdrawn; their mother holds visitors in a long, needy embrace, tears staining her cheeks.

"I would like to go and identify that man," said the younger sister. "If I find him, I will kill him. I am praying for that chance."

Correspondent Molly Moore contributed to this report.

© 1999 The Washington Post Company

FULL WHITE PAPER AT BLACKWELL SYNERGY.

Rape in Kosovo: Masculinity and Serbian Nationalism

* Wendy Bracewell11Department of History, School of Slavonic and East European Studies, University College London

*
1Department of History, School of Slavonic and East European Studies, University College London

Abstract

Accusations of Albanian rape of Serbs in Kosovo became a highly charged political factor in the development of Serbian nationalism in the 1980s. Discussions of rape were used to link perceptions of national victimisation and a crisis of masculinity and to legitimate a militant Serbian nationalism, ultimately contributing to the violent break-up of Yugoslavia. The article argues for attention to the ways that nationalist projects have been structured with reference to ideals of masculinity, the specific political and cultural contexts that have influenced these processes, and the consequent implications for gender relations as well as for nationalist politics. Such an approach helps explain the appeal of Milošević's nationalism; at the same time it highlights the divisions and conflicts that lie behind hegemonic gender and national identities constructed around difference.
This article is cited by:

Serbs have rape camp, says Cook

By Nicholas Watt, Ian Traynor in Berlin and Maggie O'Kane in Belgrade
Wednesday April 14, 1999

Guardian Unlimited
The Government seized on evidence yesterday that young ethnic Albanian women were being herded into an army camp in Kosovo and subjected to systematic rape by Serbian security forces.

Robin Cook, the Foreign Secretary, accused the Serbs of stepping up their 'brutal atrocities' by separating women from their families as they fled Kosovo and forcing them to endure rape at the camp in the village of Djakovica, close to the border with Albania.

Women who have made it across the border have given harrowing accounts of their ordeal to aid workers, Mr Cook told the daily briefing at the Ministry of Defence.

'The story has come forward from a number of women and, sadly, I have to say it does seem to have the ring of corroboration.'

Mr Cook added: 'Understandably it surfaced rather slowly . . . because many of these young women would be reluctant to admit the experience they have been through.'

Aid agencies agreed that Serb forces had resorted to rape as a tactic during the expulsion of ethnic Albanians from Kosovo.

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees reported that a 22-year-old woman was shot dead on Monday night as she ran from a Serb soldier who had singled her out as her family fled Kosovo.

UNHCR said it had no evidence, however, of a rape camp at Djakovica and it suggested that Nato could have compiled details only from its spy satellites. One international observer went so far as to question why Mr Cook had presented details of the camp as 'fresh evidence' yesterday when the Pentagon had given a detailed briefing on the camp last week.

The observer, who wanted to remain anonymous, wondered why Mr Cook had raised the issue only a day after Nato attacked a train in Serbia, killing 10 civilians. Nato was deeply embarrassed by the bombing, which handed a propaganda victory to the Serb authorities, and yesterday the alliance set up an inquiry to find out what had gone wrong.

In his briefing about the alleged rape camp, Mr Cook accused Serbs of completing 'the pattern of brutality of Milosevic's forces in Bosnia', where at least 60,000 women overwhelmingly Muslim were systematically raped. However, there are striking differences between the two wars.

Serb operations in Kosovo are being carried out in the main by regular Yugoslav army troops, unlike the paramilitary forces that were largely responsible for the rapes in Bosnia. Many of the rape camps in Bosnia were set up with the help of local Serb militia groups, and Muslim women were often raped by their neighbours. In Kosovo the Serb population is overwhelmingly in the minority and feels threatened by the Kosovo Liberation Army.

In 1992, the Guardian identified 19 locations in Bosnia where rape took place over a prolonged period and where women were held indefinitely for that purpose. According to hundreds of personal testimonies, the rapes took place at factories, schools, sawmills and furniture stores. There is no evidence of a similar pattern emerging in Kosovo.

However, there was unanimous agreement yesterday that the spectre of widespread rape had returned to the Balkans. Serb forces pick off young women as a way of asserting their power and of attacking the ethnic Albanian population by impregnating women with a Serbian child.

Monika Hauser, a Cologne gynaecologist who has just returned from the refugee camps in Albania, spoke yesterday of the chilling accounts of rapes from young women who had fled across the border.

Ms Hauser set up the first rape crisis centre in Bosnia six years ago and founded the Cologne-based Medica foundation which specialises in the treatment of war rape victims.

In an interview with the Guardian, Ms Hauser said that a woman had told her that Serbs had raped almost the entire female population of a village.

'The woman told me of a village near Drenica in Kosovo where Serb forces surrounded it and shelled it for 14 hours. They then came into the village, executed the village leaders, and put everyone else in a warehouse for days without food. They took 20 women out of the warehouse for two days and two nights during which they were raped continuously and then returned to the warehouse half-dead.'

Ms Hauser said that women found it difficult to recount their stories because of the trauma they suffered. 'We're receiving a lot of stories of rapes since most of the 300,000 in the camps in Albania are women and children. But these women are in shock, traumatised and it's very hard for them to speak out.'

Medica, which runs a centre for counselling and treating traumatised women in Zenica in central Bosnia, has just started working with an Albanian women's organisation in Tirana where it is establishing a mobile treatment and therapy operation.

Anna Biermann, of Medica, said: 'We treat traumatised women, provide medical and gynaecological examinations and also collect evidence and documentation which gets passed on to the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague.'

International health organisations are so concerned by the growing reports of rape in Kosovo that the International Society for Health and Human Rights is to hold a meeting on the issue in Austria on Friday.

Helen Bamber, the director of the Medical Foundation, who will represent Britain at the meeting, described rape as a 'quick way of humiliating people'.

Ms Bamber said: 'Rape is a way of dragging people down to the very bottom of the pit. It is the act of killing a person without dying. Women have to live with the memory and they have to face their parents. It is also an assault on a woman's identity because they can end up giving birth to a child which is partly Serb.'

Kosovan Albanian women feel a particular sense of shame after they have been raped, according to Lyndall Sachs, a spokeswoman for UNHCR. 'Many women face being killed after they have been raped because of the shame it brings on a family,' Ms Sachs said. 'It is a very sensitive issue.'
Guardian Unlimited © Guardian News and Media Limited 2007

NOTE: You can see from that last one where the problems for women between Serb aggression and Albanian cultural rape sensitivity converge. However, it should be noted that in Bosnia and Albania, in contrast to tradition, honor killings didn't happen. There were ceremonies in which villages sang and welcomed raped women back as completely accepted people. Among Albanians, honor killings of a woman who marries outside the clan are not unknown at all, and the ethnic supremacy of THAT needs to be dealt with as well.

As I've said before (mostly ignored), there are no really innocent people in this.

But to come on this board and try to make the claim that Serbs should rule those they try to exterminate is so malignant as not to be tolerated.

And to make the claim that Serbs didn't rape their way through the Balkans as a means of ethnic cleansing is ridiculous.

News from Serbia!!

Serbs honour murdered journalist
Serbian radio station
Serbia's media under pressure from government
Journalists and opposition figures in Serbia are commemorating the assassination a year ago of the journalist and publisher, Slavko Curuvija.

They are due to hold a ceremony on Tuesday to mark the anniversary of his death and will be lighting candles at the spot where he was killed.

Mr Curuvija was shot dead outside his home as he was walking along the street with his wife during the Nato bombing campaign and a year after the attack his killing remains an unsolved mystery.

Shockwaves

The killing sent shock waves to the journalist community in Serbia. A year after the attack Mr Curuvija's murder remains an unsolved mystery.

Mr Curuvija had risen to prominence six months earlier when he co-wrote a scathing editorial about president Slobodan Milosevic and published it in his magazine - the other author of the piece subsequently made efforts to patch up its relations with the Milosevic family.

Mr Curuvija's assassin has never been found but many people point their finger at the regime.

They believe the killing of such a prominent journalist and publisher was intended to frighten the rest of the alternative media into silence.

Media crackdown

In the year since Mr Curuvija was killed the authorities have tightened the screw on newspapers, television and radio stations which do not toe the government's line.

A number of broadcasters have been closed for allegedly failing to pay for their frequencies and newspaper editors have been heavily fined for anti-government articles judged to be libellous.

The commemoration of Mr Curuvija's death is likely to become a focus for demands that the alternative media be allowed to work unhindered.

ANd Ms Morgans knowledge about the world as I said is very inaccurate is again proved when she says that Muslims were burnt in Trains, ..outright lie.....

From above, very above

What Ms Morgaan?

Morgaan Sinclair ,

I just want to add some balance in what you cited .Your anti-Serb bias is misleading some people here (your sources are left-wing btw and non-independent or balanced). There is no moral equivalency between the Serb Christians and the others. Enough Serb Orthodox were killed in World War II by Muslims (both Bosnian and Albanian Kosovar working with Nazi Germany) and Croatian Roman Catholics in what is undoubtedly a genocide based on religion (read about it) to justify the Serbs' not wanting to live under or with Muslims or Croatians ever again.

If the United States continues to pursue a policy of bigotry against Orthodox Christianity (left, right and center) from issues as wide as the Orthodox Patriarchate in Istanbul, the Orthodox Christians in Cyprus and other Orthodox Christians in the rest of Europe then this will only confirm that these peoples can only get justice from Mother Russia and should perhaps pursue policies of deterrence rather than subservience. That would complicate things for everybody and is a price that I think the United States is not prepared to pay for the Muslims in question.

At the rot of this issue is that the executive branch in the United States is being "advised" by non-Christians and those that simply don't give a damn about the suffering or welfare of Christians .We can hardly claim a separation of Church and State when protestants, Catholics and Jews (and now some Muslims) seem to get preference over Orthodox Christians which the sclerotic politicians in Washington D.C. still regard as crypto-russo-philic-communists. As an example: Russian Jews were allowed to immigrate to the United States after 1990 but Russian Orthodox were not. The persecution against the Russian Orthodox versus anti-Semitism (as bad as the Jewish community think it was) was infinitely worse by the Communists since 1918.

I think these people should seek help from Russia to "balance" things out if things don't change in Washington D.C and some idiotic hypocritical countries like the anti-Semitic Dutch (that were clapping the Jews when they were boarding the train cars to Auschwitz from Amsterdam Station) all because they feel guilty about their stupidity in Srebrenica.

If they got help from Russia they would be fully justified from a moral standpoint given what has happened to them since 1939-2007. I think all fair-minded readers would agree.What goes around will eventually come around.

You are right, Svemirko. I got that one wrong.

On 27 February 2002 in Gujurat in India, a band of Muslims burned a train compartment of 58 fundamentalist Hindus (Hindutva ... do read up on this group).

Subsequently the Hindus then burned a Hindu school with kids in it, so they were burned alive, and then went on a revenge rampage that killed 2,000 people.

See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1845905.stm

Morgaan
please, its just my curiosity: beside indipendent kosova tell me honestly,just your oppinion, does we serbs deserve something more? Something worst?

BTW, svemirko ...

You'll notice every time I find out I am wrong about something I apologize and correct it.

There are at least a dozen people posting on JW who lie deliberately as a case of overt dissembling, subterfuge, and propaganda.

That's not a mistake. It's a deliberate act of screwing the minds of the American people. Don't expect to make friends that way. There is too much information out there about what happened in the Balkans for the Serbs ever to succeed in rewriting history as they now attempt to do.

Morgaan Sinclair,

Please don't quote the BBC. The British have committed much worse things than the Serbs ever did.Their credibility is questionable at best.

The BBC is routinely ridiculed on this blog.

But if you must be an apologist for Muslim genocide and Croatian Catholic genocide answer this:

Would you give your life for the Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo?

History is different when you look at more than just 10 years isn't it?

Look at the U.K. It is still considered trash by most countries in the world( and Europe ) and in the United States we laugh at them for how they squeal to "assist us" with their token forces. Germany is infinitely more important to us than the U.K. :)

Svemirko ...

In all seriousness, here is what I would suggest:

Serbia needs to take control of the parts of Kosovo and Bosnia while are Serb-majority areas. I would actually suggest that Serbia HOLD OUT for these areas.

I do not think that Serbia should control Muslim-majority areas because of the problems generated by the paramilitaries in those areas during the wars. I think if Serbia tries to hold onto Kosovo in its entirety, there will be another war.

And I greatly fear another war, because I think it would bring Muslim radicals from all over the world -- similar to what happened in Iraq -- and then the Serbs would be overwhelmed, and they would bring the war into Serbia proper and take Belgrade.

I know you think that in opposing the Serb takeover of Kosovo I do not have Serb interests at heart, but I assure you that I do.

I think that if the Serbs try to control Kosovo and Bosnia or Croatia as they tried to do in the 1990s, they will now find that they are not dealing with the same situation. In the 1990s, they were able to convince the UN to disarm the Bosnian people, Albanians everywhere were dirt poor, and Milosevic was able to commandeer all of the war-making materiel of the former Yugoslavia.

That's not the case now. If Serbia starts another war by insisting on ruling non-Serb peoples from what is UNQUESTIONABLY an ethnic Serbian state, Europe will freak.

A major part of why NATO went fought Serbia was that the Germans were staring at hundreds of thousands of refugees pouring across the border into Germany. Germany went to NATO and told them they wanted this intervention.

Also, nobody can forget that having disarmed the Bosnians, the Serbs then shelled a defenseless Sarajevo almost daily for three years, completely destroyed one of the jewels of European civilization.

So, the situation facing Serbia now is NOT what it was before. And if Serbia tries to control non-Serb areas, it will face both international intervention -- AND, IT STANDS A GOOD CHANCE OF TURNING THE BALKANS INTO IRAQ. I don't want to see that happen, because, first, I do not want see hundreds of thousands dead.

And this time what will happen is that the war will not be fought on Bosnian or Kosovar or Croatian soil. The next war will be fought on Serbia soil. Serbia will lose the war. And then there is a possibility that Serbia will cease to exist as a nation, and become a refugee population in Greece.

If Serbia aggresses at all again, for at least the next century, the chances are very good that Serbia will cease to exist and will never exist again, effectively having handed to the Albanians the "Greater Albania" you're all bitching about all the time anyhow.

Do not do this. It is a mistake. It is a mistake that is potentially fatal to the existence of Serb people in the Balkans.

Do not try to take all of Kosovo. But hold out for the Serb autonomous province in Bosnia and the Serb-majority area of Kosovo. Do let those go.

If you handle this properly now this may work out well. You need to hold the ace in the hole that Serbia remains a viable country, makes peaceful moves towards its neighbors, turns over its war criminals, and follow Kostunica's lead in producing a state that guarantees rights to all ethnic groups.

If you can achieve this, you will be able to engender great respect in the international community, and therefore respect for the concerns you rightfully have that Wahhabism and radicalism in general **IS** making gains in the Balkans.

But if you do it wrong, you will get Iraq and you will lose Serbia, maybe forever.

My views about these things are very long and tend to include the safety of all peoples, including the Serbs.

The fact is that on this board most of the people arguing the so-called "Serb point of view" do the Serb people an immense injustice in that they completely disregard the humanity of all others, which is always a mistake, and is not really the feelings of most Serbs anyhow, since the vast majority of the population were completley unaware of what the paramilitaries under Milosevic actually did. They are having tremendous difficulty coming to terms with it, and it's very sad.

What ALL the people of the Balkans need to do -- including the Albanians, Bosnians, etc. -- is to stop trying to protect the KLA bad guys, the Bosnian terrorists, and all the rest who committed war crimes, and turn them all in.

And then, the UN needs to make sure every constitution in the Balkans is rights-based on ethnic, racial, gender and religious terms.

THEN, when you throw gender in there, is where you start to get a bright international light shining on the abuses of women under Islam in the Balkan areas.

And that is a major thing that Serbia has on its side. Kostunica, for all that I disagree with him on many issues, is a good man, and he is determined that human rights conventions be followed in Serbia. This is NOT necesarily true in Bosnia, especially with the recent defection of Ceric to the side of the Wahhabis, and women's rights violations in terms of honor killings in Albania and among Kosovar Albanians are legendary and infamous.

And this is where Serbia, if she does this right, can reverse the tremendous international perception that she doesn't care about the rights of others.

If you make Serbia the model for human rights in the Balkans (you'll have to turn over Karadzic and Mladic to do this), grant absolutely equal rights to non-Serbs, shut down the anti-Semitic websites, and embrace women's rights, every other state in the Balkans will suffer immensely by comparison, and their human rights abuses will be glaringly horrible in review.

But right now the problem is that the Serb litany that Kosovo is Serb ethnic property -- despite the Albanians having been there 4,000 years longer and despite the fact that the population is 90% Albanian -- is clouding the perception of all the other problems in the Balkans, including, and most ominously, the rise of radical Islam. And that's because the view from outside is the clear perception that Serbia is creating another crisis that will result in another series of Balkan wars much worse than the ones everybody is trying to recover from now.

That is why I am so eager to see this mistake NOT be made. Yes, go get that Serb-majority area, and don't agree to anything unless you get it. But let the rest go.

And get the Serb-majority area of Bosnia, and don't make any agreements that don't include that.

But do NOT, do NOT risk another war, because the next war will not be in Kosovo or Bosnia or Croatia. It will be in Belgrade, and it will destroy Serbia.

Be well ...

Morgaan Sinclair,

Just out of curiosity why is the Bosnian Muslim, Albanian Kosovar issue so dear to your heart?

Are you from the former Yugoslavia now living in the European Union?

It is hard to establish the facts or true motivation of anonymous posters here but you have an intense hatred for Serbians although you will deny it - it is obvious.

You didn't vote for Tony Blair by any chance?

Also, how old are you? Are you retired or unemployed? You seem to post the longest articles on this blog and often without balance or even attempting to put the case for the "other side".

--- PS

Keep posting from BBC, Guardian and the other leftwing sources.

Also, you don't know the issues at all. The Guardian retracted the rape camp article; it was not true. Do your research before reposting it.

Morgaan Sinclair ,

"The next war will be fought on Serbian soil. .........Serbia will cease to exist as a nation, and become a refugee population in Greece."

This was amusing .

How do you know the Greeks will take these 12 million Serb refugees of your fantasies?

I thought you didn't approve of ethnic cleansing ?

DID ALL SERBS DO THIS? No. Read this incredible account of one Serb who stood up against the others. Notice the women appeal to him because he's a Christian, and he responds as one. This is one of the most courageous and beautiful things I've ever heard of.

***

The more senior soldier, Gashi said, was alternatively nervous, polite and threatening.

The women said they begged him to let them go in the name of the cross he wore around his neck.

After driving around Pec and its surrounding countryside, the women said, they were released untouched.

In Prizren, the rapes at the home where the two sisters and their neighbors were sheltered occurred in a neighborhood surrounded by Yugoslav forces during a nighttime operation. But the paramilitary who carried out the assaults appeared to be acting without the approval of his comrades.

When the Yugoslav soldier arrived, according to the women, he started to kick and punch the paramilitary and threw him out of the house. The soldier, whose name they recalled as Vladan, then started to cry, the women said.

"He said, 'I'm so sorry. I have sisters. I have a wife. I have children,' " said the young mother, Lumturije, who said he kissed her hand and held her baby as he wept. "One was so bad, and one was so polite, like an angel. He saved us."

Morgaan Sinclair ,
First of all you sir cited the Guardian article. Which was false journalism. It was based on the rumor by the Muslims who were losing the war and had little sympathy in Europe.

Now I don't deny that there were rapes. Sure. And I know that Muslims raped Serbian Christians? But again why are you not including this in the interests of balance?

Did the Serbs organize "camps" where rape was occurring on an industrial scale? Where is the *independent and non-biased* evidence for that?

Be balanced or else suffer recrimination.

There is always, ALWAYS two sides to every story or claim as any journalist (except in the BBC and Guardian) will tell you.

Morgaan, we all know that history is written by a winner. Speaking about it, I regulary watch viasat history channel. Their version of us is exactly the same as yours: smearing Serbs over Gavrilo Princip at the beggining of century and miloshevic on the end of it, as well as shittin all over Israel cos of its policy in M.E. (like in epizode: palestine still in a problem). Recently I watch their serial: hell on a pacific; about americans vs japanees in ww2. For the very first time I have watched the scenes which would make you vomit (at least I think so). Scenes of american soldiers killing wounded japanese, then taking their golden teeth. Scene with one young girl rejoicing over skull of japan soldier which was sent to home as a present by her boyfriend and his comrades. The scenes of americans deliberately burning alive japanese civilians hidden in a pits. The scene where american veteran admits that 'everybody took something as a trophy, so I took one scull and made a candlestick of it'. The quote from american officier who said that japanese are subhuman form of apes. And on and on. But regardless that nobody ever said that japan should win the war, cos every slightely educated person knows what japanese done all over pacific prior to Iwo Jima and Guadalcanal.
Now, you may go with your reports on Serbian attrocities from this war, but also every slightely educated person also knows that history of balkans start far more earlier than miloshevic or 1999. Also, your report on raping (whome I consider not only overexeggerated but simple part of war propaganda) is probably paintfull topic for you, cos you are a woman and I can understand your even grater than mine level of disguisting on that. But, just as an exemple, quite different than you, I live here and speak the language of bosnians. In any single bosnian website, I have innummerable time saw enermous deroggaration of Serbs, that noone could explain that. Usualy its something like: you valahian shit (they dont even considered us as Serbs but wallahs-I dont know why), your mothers and sisters were fucked by turks. you are gypsies. we all know that turks fuck your woman...and simmilar beauties. And thats the people who screem that they are wictims of same raping campaign. Just Morgaan try to imagine that your country invade some foreign force, rule over you for 5 centuries, rape you, yes personaly you, impose ius primae nocte (first wedding night),take your only son to make him quite opposite of those what you and your husband (God rest his soul) would do, and than when somehow you finnally liberate from those bastards, you hear them rejoicing over humiliation they inflict on you.Thats exactly what bosnians do (at least those whose comments I can read every day on internet). Or forget what I have just said and look at Hugs thread: Now think about the centuries of Turkish Muslim rule. Think about the devshirme. Think about the cultural impact of that Turkish Muslim rule on the Serbians -- see, if you need to see, Ivo Andric's doctoral dissertation on this subject.
Think about it Morgaane, think.

P.S. Ah. you beat m ein tipping speed. Ill do my best to try to answer your last thread to me asap.

Purple Marbles ...

I have listed you access to more than 1,000 indications that there were rape camps, including the text of the conviction of a Serb who detained women for the purpose.

There's much more where that came from, so you can stop whining about the fact that the BBC and the Guarian -- and the NYT, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Chicago Trib, London Times, and EVERYBODY ELSE -- got it right.

Svemirko ...

I will come back later to read what you write to me. I have to go as duty calls.

Just one more thing ...

I want to thank you for some for the questions you ask and for the the fact that although I know you really get angry at the positions I take, you keep trying to talk about things from an adult, usually respectful place. And therefore, I appreciate the conversation I can have with you about these things.

So ... thank you for that. It's appreciated.

Morgaan Sinclair ,

*You* cited the Guardian article not me .

It was bogus . But you went further and claimed that the UN trials "proved" there were camps for raping the poor women of Muslim Bosnia .

Where are these camps where all these rapes ( which must number into the hundreds of thousands ) were going on ?

The evidence you showed only claims that some rapes of female prisoners occured in camps of prisoners .

This is not the same as what you imply at all .

Morgaan,

I replied to one of your posts here on this thread on 5/29 at 2:23pm. It think it warrants a re-read, primarily to review your own statements concerning Muslims and Islam that appeared to be, less than informed.

It is becoming increasingly evident that you have a desire to be right about your estimation that the Serbs were completely at fault during the Balkan war, even in the face of the Serbian posters here who are sensitive to this issue, have attempted to provide differing opinions, those who have and continue to deal with Islam every day to a much greater degree than you or I must endure currently.

You must understand that many of these people were not directly involved and are no more to blame than the current generation of Germans are for WWII. Your continual reprimandation of Serbia leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, especially that by circumstance, it "appears" to be a defense of Muslims and Islam, which is peculiar here given the nature of this site.

Hugh made some excellent points in his original essay, points about the Serbs being sold-out, not under Milosevic, but the current government, points that were being discussed by yourself included, until it went horribly off-topic, as usual, once you get rolling, playing into the hands of people intentionally trying to bait you.

If I recall, the previous thread on this site that had anything to do with Kosovo, had all posts wiped by Robert. While I am certainly not blaming you for that end, you must acknowledge partial blame there and here if you had any posts wiped in this thread. That is a subtle message from the administrators.

I understand your passion on the subject and laud your research, even if I feel it is delivered in over-abundance, but also feel the need to remind you, it is secondary to the prime focus of this site. You are a smart girl and I know you can positively contribute to the discourse here, for I do not, nor have I ever, accused you of being a pro-jihadist. This is a genuine appeal to your better judgement going forward, not to be construed as an attempt to silence or bully you, as you have often professed that others have done in the past.

The Balkans are still a mess and Islam has a major role in that fiasco. Where Islam marches, war surely follows. It is the nature of the beast and no amount of documentation suggesting otherwise can alter that reality. The war there may have been about ethnicity in the past, but surely will be about religion, Islam specifically, in the future.

Regards,

awake

THE INFORMATION ABOUT THE ENDLESS CASES OR RAPE ARE ABOVE.

If you need anything further you can go to the Hague Tribunal records and do your own research.

Svemirko ...

If you want to write me, you can use the address AinenGracen@GracenIntelligence.org, which belongs to a friend of mine.

Nobody else is invited.

Morgaan Sinclair ,

I'll leave this issue . I won't comment more to you. But I think that you contradict yourself in what you write above.You have not proven that female specific camps where rape was occuring on an industrial scale existed.The term is a propaganda term of the "winners".That's how history always is.

The Hague trial was a bit of joke if one must trully be fair and impartial . But that is another story . The "winners" always try and write history..

Purple Marbles,

READ THE DAMNED INDICTMENTS AND CONVICTIONS AND THEN DO TRY AGAIN TO MAKE SOME COMPLETELY ASSININE CASE THERE WERE NO RAPE CAMPS.

Morgaan,

Once again, after being explicitly clear in my post, you suggest that I, albeit politely, are attempting to suppress your voice here.

Categorically untrue.

I am attempting to improve the level of respectful discourse here. Nothing more, nothing less.

If the ad-hominem attacks that you are anticipating do come in your absence, then deal with them accordingly when you return. Personally, I think you are bordering on paranoid in regards to the aforementioned, but that is simply my opinion.

Nearly all threads dealing with this subject that you become involved in spins wildly out of control, adulterating the original topic to varying degress. That is a historical fact here. Where exaxctly the blame lies is speculative, but for you to admit no contribution to that is immature at best. I am hoping that you can rise above the intentional trolling and baiting.

All I suggested is that you try to do your part to eliminate this common occurence. Agree or disagree, that is your choice. It was an appeal to your better judgement, not a mandate.

By the way, JW management does not need your permission to modify or remove your's or anyone else's posts here. I am trying to point out the fact that I personally do not have any posts modified or removed but it certainly is not attributable to me not having a strong opinion or two. I hope you can understand that.

Regards,

awake

When posters beome emotionally involved then all is possible.I must blame myself for allowing myself to be "sucked in".I will resist this temptation.The Serbian poster above more or less wrote what I attempted( and obviously failed) to point out.

It is a shame that one cannot filter out posts from this forum. Discoursing with posters with such strong opinions is a waste of time as many have found I presume.

However , when I saw what was written about the Serbian people by this emotionally involved poster I had to set the record straight as it were in the interests of balance and just plain fairness.

I have no involvement in the Yugoslav issues . I just do not like one sided lectures .Which the ill-informed American public may believe .

And with that I will end all this .

You'r wellcome Morgaan, and thank for your kind words.I know we can communicate as decent and educated people.
It also may be strange to you, I realy dont hate you cos of your attitude and please try to forgive those Serbs on this post who doesnt treat you as a woman and lady regardless your oppinion. You know, when I have accidentaly stumble on this site (more than a year ago) it was some news about guy with muslim name, poloting something in europe, but his nationality was presented as serbian (not bosnian, simmiliar like fort dix albanians were presented as yugoslavs- sound almost serbish). Now, I dont really pay attention to any single antiserbian thread, but that day I was in some cynical mood so I post a cynical comment. For my dullness, I only latter realize what actualy JW/DW is all about, and I was really most deeply moved by many americans even apologizing for american treatment of serbia. Belive me when Iam saying to you, it was utterly beyond my comprehension that there are americans supporting us and who not just some antigovernment opportunists (lone gunners and conspiracy theorists).
Anyway, probaly for many serbs your comment here are just like a worm in the apple or a snake in a paradise. There are people who finnally understand us (I mean on those guys from JW/DW board), and what was happening in balkans through centuries, and than you came with your (I must say unnecesary long) posts. So naturally, that irritate many of us to react pasionately and unpolitely (I include myself also so I apology if I ever accidentaly called you a bitch, troll or jihadist-although I cant remember such decline). I dont know your motifs, are you an albanian apologist, lobbyst, or even a some guy sitting in JW/DW board itself and taking an amusement to teasing serbs, but you certanly have any right to have attitude you have on us and anybody else.
Now, about Kosovo partition. First, there are numerous obstacles to that idea mostly from the west itself. Ahtisari not only say that Kosovo and Metohy should grant indipendence, but also that there is no separation of it. Now, just for a moment consider partition as possible idea. Personaly for me I would accept it BUT that partition must include Kosovo field (so called gazimestan) and nearby monastery of Gracanica because that 'kosovo myth' (actually very insulting term for me as it would be 'temple zion myth' to any jew-not to mention so called 'holocaust myth'), cos that place of historic serbian martirdom gave us a strenght to survive all martirdoms which latter befall on us. It gave us some form of christian indentity. Leaving that to muslims it would be crucifying the christian soul (character) of Serbia. I lack the words to explain it to you. Its of very, very grate importance to us. Field of the black birds is the same what zion to jews, or perhaps statue of liberty to americans. It may be just a relict, a monument, but you cannot imagine yourself without it. Technicly, you can go on. In reality, thats the path to ones nation oblivion.
Probably, thats the reason why albanians etnicly cleansed that area from serbs. They now even start a building a factory near monument, regardless guarantiees given by unmik to respect historical heritage (one more reason not to belive anything what west ha promised to us). So ovbiously, from my point of view, its not just attemt to destroy serbo-christian traces from Kosovo. Its not EVEN a humiliating us. Rather its an attempt to deinstall coletive serbian memory. Deserbification of the Serbs. Its dechristianisation (they like to say demythologization) of it. The so needed katarsis. And after that, we would be purified for new europian society, devoid of any unnececary baggage, like christianity, history, or moral. But we will be finally liberalized people. Actually nation as dead as many other europian. Living just to earn money to pay a tax to overbirocratized system. Frankly Morgaan,dont get me wrong,but I would rather choose war. Now, I dont have I slightess wish to fight americans or westerners, but we have been twice in 20th century invaded from all sides, killled in massive slaughterings (see Kozara, see Kragujevac-where germans killed 7000 serbs in one day;several hundred children among them; and nobody declare that as genocide. But srebrenica is). And yet my grandpa take a gun and fight kaizers storm troopers of death. And yet my father fled to partisans and fight nazists. If thats our destiny, so be it. But as my grandfather, and as my father I ultimately know I'll fight for RIGHT thing.And that means a lot. Ask your son, he is a soldier if Iam correct. I would not need a one minute of propaganda to explain to me why I should fight, like average american need, especialy when he send his troops on the other side of the planet. And, as for Kosovo, for what the americans will fight? Just to build yet another failed state, this time to muslims, in their 'e plurebus unum' utopia?
Back to the story. Giving serbia northern mitrovica means nothing to me, cos everything what means to us is south of north mitrovica. Places I have named. But anyway, I think it would be feasible to hold northern part of Kosovo with Kosovo field. Only that would require from americans to show at least for once a nasty look to albanians. They now belive (and rightfully) thay can do anything because americans are holding their backs. All killings, rapings, malestings and demolishings of serbs and their property is doing with shamefull silence from america and thats actually their grate encouragmennt.
So, as Hugh has noticed above, America should start to pay attention to our needs, and demand, not because america need serbia (that would be ridiclous), but because america simply dont need to loose its natural (and long standing) ally, who may at some moment prove itself worthy (yet again). Beside, there are too many other things at stake. Dont be fooled that rest of orhtodox christians will not look with enmity to USA for indipendent kosova. Dot think that just Iam a serb, Iam not anguish over injustice done to, say, Greeks in Konstantinople and asia minor, or to Armenians and Assyrians. All that disasters had been prevented if west pay at least a smallest attention. Simmilary, America, if want to preserve its walues in the war against its worst foe ever faced, should use any help, not just arogantly throw it away. All orthodox christian will certalnly give its contribution. But hardly that sacrificing and hummiliating the serbs will be encouraging motif.
Now you may think its useless for some balcan insect like me to giving the advice. But it maybe one day just like in those Aezop fable about lion and the mouse. I would like to see serbian shriness on Kosovo and Metohy, muslim free. Also, I would like to see Republic of Srpska liberated from iron fist of sarajevo. But for that, it would be nice that people like you, take at least on some point stand not for Serbs, but for justice. Tell albanians that they cannot blackmail west (i.e. give us indipendence or else). That story about 4 millenia old albanians (whom I consider a lie but doesnt matter if its even a truth), is not a reason for landgrab, not only in Serbia, but Macedonia, Greece and Montenegro. This maybe laugfull to you, but we need any honest person to do something in that direction, and although I dont know you personaly, I presume that you are honest and willing to help in finding longlasting peace. If we get so many cicks in a butt because our misdoings, its a time to show a fist to albanians for all evil they inflict, and not just 'understanding' them. So, for the end, I ask you, think (regardless insulting comments) again and after all, why not, came to Belgrade. See us. And you'll see that we are just ordinary people wishing the ordinary things.
Till our next chat have a nice day and best regards.

The management of JW know they have my permission to remove part of all of any post they don't want here. That's because I've written to them and TOLD them that.

To clarify for other posters:

We don't need anyone's permission.

Anyone who registers and posts is expected to abide by the terms of use. Edits and deletions can and do occur based on the disclaimer in boldface at the top of every comments section.

Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor

Marisol, thanks.

It's nice to know that the inmates aren't (yet) running the asylum.

Marisol

This question may be above your pay grade, but I'll ask anyway. Maybe Hugh or Robert could answer.

Are all future threads on Serbia/Bosnia/Kosovo/Albania destined to become troll fests for one particular poster who has this OCD with Serbia? Because I do see that in the long run, while there are healthy conversations in other threads re: various topics, people will avoid touching this thread with a bargepole. Anybody who wants to have a healthy discussion on this topic would have to go to other sites, such as Chronicles Magazine, Frontpage Magazine, FaithFreedom or IslamWatch. Are the powers that be here even mindful of that? Or don't they care?

Marisol, that is not what I meant to imply. What it's meant to imply is that I have made it very clear that I support your decision to remove any post of mine you don't like.

>It's nice to know that the inmates aren't (yet) running the asylum.>

I dunno, Infidel Pride, you're still here!

Morgaan

Thanks for giving a mail. Tomorrow or latter Ill send a greeting mail.

Svemirko ...

Great. Maybe we can have some extended discussions in peace and swap concerns until we understand each other.

We are talking here like we can decide policies when it is governments that dictate policies.I believe that the present Serb government,whatever it says,would accept giving Kosovo if it took Serbian Bosnia as Sinclair finds logical.The problem is that US policy is anti-Serb and anti-Orthodox in general all the way in all possible matters and demands abolishment of Republika Srpska.
There is no room for compromise.Americans will give to the Muslims as much as Balkan land they can.
And then we shall all wait for the future jihad in Europe for the next round because with the Muslim immigration the Balkans come in Western Europe.
The time will come that the peoples of the rest of Europe will understand how the Balkans became the land of ethnic cleansing.

To the poster above :

I think Nicolas Burns' strategy over the Serb part of Bosnia could be an efort to pressure the Belgarde governmnet to yield on Kosovo .

I doubt very much that the Serbs will be in any confederation against their will along with the Croats with a population of muslims that form 40% of the total Bosnian population .

Also , what the Serbs did in 1992-1999 is a "drop in the bucket" when compared to what the muslims and the croats did to them in WWII with good'ol Ante Pavlic and his murderous Nazi thugs .

Israel got Eichmann . Mr Ante Pavlic was allowed to waltz around in Argentina by the Allies untouched . It seems Serbian Orthodox murder camps can be forgiven but Jewish murder camps cannot.

Those poor muslims in Bosnia what victims they are....

Athenian ...

My suggestion, just for the record, was that Serbia should have the Serb provinces of Bosnia and the Serb provinces of Kosovo. What I am suggesting here is that given the fact that the ethnic groups can't survive without trying to annhilate each other. Therefore, an ethnic split is probably the only thing that will possibly work.

Fanatic, of course, didn't really read my post and continues to make hostile personal comments, as per usual, so I won't be answering any of his/her so-called "points" until dissent is met with something more worthy than the usual false accusations.

I think things are going well so far Morgaan. Do you agree?

A complete turnabout in political thinking
By Mohamed Sid-Ahmed

Mohamed Sid-Ahmed Every year, Cairo University's Faculty of Economics and Political Sciences hosts a seminar to discuss the annual Strategic Report put out by Al-Ahram's Centre for Political and Strategic Studies. The 1999 report presented for discussion at this year's seminar provoked a heated controversy among Egyptian intellectuals, many of whom, myself included, described it as reflecting a complete turnabout in political and strategic thinking.

In its opening section, entitled The Arabs and Global Interaction, the report devoted the first chapter to the Kosovo crisis, which was portrayed as a typical example of what it called the dangers of misreading the global situation, whether out of ignorance or as a result of deliberate distortion. Proceeding from this premise, the report goes on to denounce those who condemned NATO's military intervention in Kosovo, accusing them of downplaying the facts which prove that it was a legitimate response to aggression, specifically, to the campaigns of genocide and ethnic cleansing which the Serbs began launching against the Albanian Muslims in Kosovo since the end of the seventies.

The report further criticised the opponents of the NATO intervention for what it claims was their false allegation that the tragedy of Kosovo began after the intervention, which they portrayed as the key factor behind the mass exodus of the Albanian Kosovars, while totally ignoring the fact that the problem originated as far back as 1978. With the outbreak of the wars of independence in Croatia, Slovenia and Bosnia, the Serb Republic launched a war of extermination against the Muslims of Bosnia and Herzegovena and a campaign of harassment against the Muslim population of Kosovo aimed at driving them out of the province and replacing them with Serbs. According to the report, more than a quarter of a million Muslim Kosovars were expelled in the period between 1993 and 1998, and 170 villages were destroyed. Thousands were killed and injured and many common graves were discovered. And, even after Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic was forced to the negotiating table, he went on playing for time in order to expel as many Muslim Kosovars as he could before committing himself to a peace agreement. "That is why," concludes the Report, "there was no choice but to intervene militarily".

The report denounced not only Arab nationalist, leftist and Islamic movements for not condemning Serbian crimes more forcefully, but also Arab capitals, including Cairo, for adopting what the report describes as a "weak and ambiguous" stand towards the NATO operation. Instead of openly condemning the military intervention in the Balkans, Arab governments expressed their disapproval in an indirect manner, through asserting that any such move should be undertaken under the auspices of the United Nations, not by a military pact, and only on the basis of a mandate from the Security Council which alone could invest the operation with legitimacy.

In my address to the Cairo University seminar (I was asked to comment on the first section of the report), I criticised the report for skirting the all-important issue of international legality and for failing to address the vital question of when military intervention by NATO in the absence of a mandate from the UN Security Council could be regarded as an acceptable option.

Then there is the issue of national sovereignty. True, the sovereignty of states has been greatly eroded in the conditions of globalisation and especially with the achievements of contemporary information technology applied to the field of espionage (the refinements of intelligence-gathering gadgets, including surveillance satellites). But this by no means justifies positive action to violate national sovereignty still further. This is all the more true for the countries of the South which are keen to protect their sovereignty as much as they can against the onslaught of globalisation that has further curtailed freedoms acquired at a very high price.

The report's characterisation of the military intervention as a legitimate response to aggression is based on the assumption that aggression did indeed occur. Thus a necessary -- not, in all cases, sufficient -- condition for the validity of this characterisation is to present concrete evidence that the Serbs did commit aggression, in the form of genocide, against the Albanian Kosovars. Instead, the report relied on unconfirmed reports which have since been, if not disproved, then greatly discredited. In its March issue, which appeared after the seminar, Le Monde Diplomatique published the results of a thorough investigation it had conducted into the facts and figures NATO presented to justify its Balkan adventure. The results give a totally different picture of the situation as it built up before the NATO intervention in March 1999.

Le Monde Diplomatique does not deny that massacres happened similar to other massacres that happen elsewhere in the world. But to say that a deliberate genocide of an entire people was perpetrated, justifying NATO military intervention without even going back to the UN Security Council, is a totally different matter.

Some Western quarters tried to justify the intervention by alleging that the number of Albanian victims of Serb ethnic cleansing in Kosovo had reached a quarter of a million. This figure was repeated by many sources. But as soon as the operations were over, and more even-handed inquiries became possible, figures went down dramatically. 5-digit figures replaced 6-digit figures. After it had been claimed that the victims of genocide had been somewhere between 500,000 and 100,000, estimates went down to 10,000. This was the figure cited by President Clinton on 25 June 1999.

And even that figure was not confirmed. The dead that were actually counted amounted to 2,018. Moreover, there is no proof that they were all Albanians, or that they were all victims of massacres. It was established that the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), formed by fanatics on the Albanian side, also engaged in wide-scale killing. Atrocities were committed by both sides and reached a climax following NATO's intervention, which was itself responsible for many civilian casualties. NATO raids were not limited to military targets, but included hospitals, schools, power stations, Serbia's central television centre and the Chinese embassy in Belgrade.

Thus, as established by Le Monde Diplomatique, the initial body count (half a million) went down 250 times! According to the prestigious French monthly, the Rambouillet agreements, presented as the only way out of the crisis, actually contained secret clauses that were not disclosed. At the last minute, they were rejected by Belgrade because of the addition of a clause that the Serbian side rightly saw as an infringement of sovereignty. Also according to Le Monde Diplomatique, things could have been otherwise. Dobrica Cosic, the former speaker of Serbia's Parliament, had come up in 1992-3 with a proposal to partition Kosovo. The proposal was refused at the time by moderate Albanian Kosovar leader Ibrahim Rugova, self-proclaimed president of an independent Republic of Kosovo. But as things degenerated critically after Rambouillet, the parties could certainly have agreed to a solution which would have avoided all the bloodshed. Because of the intervention, both Kosovo and Serbia have been totally destroyed. Moreover, it has now become clear that coexistence between the various ethnic groups in Kosovo, in particular, between Albanian and Serbian Kosovars, has become impossible. Ironically, NATO is today threatening the Albanian Kosovars as it once threatened the Serbian Kosovars.

In the final analysis, NATO's intervention was justified on the basis of false information. There is a recent precedent for the use of misinformation to justify political acts. It was an unfounded rumour of a popular uprising in the town of Timisoara that sparked a nationwide uprising in Rumania and brought about Ceaucescu's downfall. After the fact, it emerged that the Timisoara incident had been fabricated by opponents of the ex-dictator to endow themselves with legitimacy and to justify the mock trial and execution of Ceaucescu and his wife.

There is no excuse in the information age to formulate opinions on the basis of inaccurate information. The 1999 Strategic Report of Al-Ahram's Centre for Political and Strategic Studies has done just that in its handling of the Kosovo crisis, building theoretical constructions and adopting positions on the basis of information it had not verified. In relying on media reports we now know to have been grossly inflated, the report failed to take account of the fact that the new information technology is a double-edged sword: on the plus side, it affords free, immediate and widespread access to information; on the minus side, it allows for the easy manipulation of information. Because there is no guarantee that the information available is not biased, it should not be accepted at face value.
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2000/474/op3.htm

Investigations belie NATO claims of "ethnic genocide"in Kosovo
By Chris Marsden and Barry Grey
9 November 1999

Use this version to print

Substantial evidence has emerged refuting the central justification for NATO's war against Serbia—the claim that the Milosevic regime was conducting "ethnic genocide" against Albanians in Kosovo.

During the conflict, the NATO powers asserted that somewhere between 100,000 (according to US Defence Secretary William Cohen) and 500,000 (according to an April 1999 statement of the US State Department) Albanian Kosovars had been killed by Serb forces. Such far-fetched claims were already being discounted by the end of the war last June.

But now the much-reduced official estimate of 10,000 Kosovar deaths has been discredited by the results of investigations carried out by the Hague war crimes tribunal and other agencies. Most post-war surveys estimate the actual number of deaths attributable to Serbian forces at less than 2,500.

The October 31 Sunday Times of London reported that an all-party committee of MPs had asked Britain's Foreign Secretary Robin Cook to answer for having misled the public over the scale of civilian deaths in Kosovo. Labour MP Alice Mahon, who chairs the Balkans committee, said, "When you consider that 1,500 civilians or more were killed during NATO bombing, you have to ask whether the intervention was justified.”

The November 3 Toronto Star ran an article by Richard Gwynn that drew the conclusion, "No genocide means no justification for a war inflicted by NATO on a sovereign nation. Only a certainty of imminent genocide could have legally justified a war that was not even discussed by the UN Security Council."

The US State Department claims that some 1,400 bodies have been recovered from 20 percent of suspected massacre sites. But priority was given to those sites assumed to contain the most bodies. The Texas-based publication Stratfor last month noted that "evidence of mass murder has not yet materialised on the scale used to justify the war". This is despite the fact that there are teams from 15 nations conducting investigations.

Stratfor states that of the 150 suspected sites examined, "the bodies are generally being found in very small numbers—far smaller than encountered after the Bosnian war". Of the civilian dead found thus far, a good number were apparently executed, but others died as a result of fighting between Serb forces and the NATO-backed Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), and some were killed by NATO bombs.

During the war, the Trepca mining complex, supposedly the hub of Serbian ethnic cleansing operations, was compared in the British press with the Nazi death camps. NATO and the KLA claimed that as many as 1,000 bodies a day had been dropped down the shafts, incinerated or dissolved in hydrochloric acid. In the aftermath of the war, however, investigators surveying the mine complex have found no evidence of executions.

In two trips to Kosovo since the war's end, the American FBI has found a total of 30 sites containing some 200 bodies. A Spanish team investigating one zone in Kosovo found no mass graves and only 187 bodies, all buried in individual graves. One team member, Emilio Perez Pujol, said, "There never was a genocide in Kosovo. It was dishonest and wrong for Western leaders to adopt the term in the beginning to give moral authority to the operation."

The Western media has, in the main, ignored these reports. But there has been an attempt at a counter-attack by some supporters of NATO's war. The London Times ran an article that said “the actual number of civilians killed" was "irrelevant". The “prevention of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, on whatever scale, remains a war aim of which NATO can be proud,” the paper declared. Guardian columnist Frances Wheen coined the term "Kosovo revisionists", equating those who dispute NATO claims of genocide with right-wing historians who deny the Nazi holocaust against the Jews.

Such statements amount to a rationalisation in advance for any military intervention that the US, Britain or NATO might decide to undertake, on the grounds of alleged human rights abuses, against any sovereign country. If the self-appointed world policemen—who happen to be the richest and militarily most powerful nations—are not even obliged to prove that the targeted country is guilty of killing and repression on a mass scale, they have a license for colonial-style domination not seen since the days of the “White man's burden” at the end of the last century.

Guardian columnist Wheen's attack on “Kosovo revisionists” is an inversion of reality. By ignoring established facts for definite—and reactionary—political ends, he is, in fact, aping the approach of Nazi apologists who downplay Hitler's crimes.

Commentators like Wheen who seek to dismiss the growing evidence of NATO lies generally attribute to their opponents the most despicable motives. They portray people who demand an accounting from NATO governments for their actions are indifferent to the Kosovar Albanians' plight and politically complicit with Milosevic and his crimes against ethnic minorities.

But if the scale of the alleged atrocities is not important, why did NATO choose to systematically falsify the reality in Kosovo? Or if one claims that the grossly inflated reports of executions, rapes, etc., were simply the result of innocent mistakes, how does one account for the fact that the errors unfailingly involved exaggerated estimates of Serb violence?

In general, defenders of the NATO war exhibit a remarkable talent for tailoring their moral indignation to conform to the foreign policy needs of their respective governments. They are curiously subdued about the ongoing war of Turkey against the Kurds, the depredations of the Sri Lankan regime against the Tamils, the decades-long Israeli repression of Palestinians, and what is certainly a genuine crime against humanity—the ongoing destruction of Iraq at the hands of the US and Britain.

Opposition to NATO's bombardment of Kosovo and Serbia proper by no means implies indifference to the suffering of Albanian Kosovars at the hands of Milosevic's forces, or support for the policies of the nationalist regime in Belgrade. The World Socialist Web Site did insist, however, that the grotesquely exaggerated claims made against Serbia by NATO were indicative of concealed political aims, which had nothing to do with the humanitarian pretensions of the US, Britain and the other warring powers.

In an article on June 25, the WSWS noted: “For the public to accept the destruction wrought by US/NATO bombs, it had to be convinced that the war was undertaken to prevent another Holocaust. The fabrication of the death toll was an essential component of a propaganda campaign which sought to disorient public opinion, distort the background of the war, and conceal the real political aims and material interests underlying the decision to go to war against Yugoslavia.”

The decision by the United States to go to war against Serbia—taken with the full backing of Britain—was based on definite Great Power geopolitical calculations. The claim to be fighting ethnic cleansing was used to justify a war drive to cripple Serbia, considered by Washington to be an obstacle to American economic and political interests in the strategically vital Balkan peninsula and the oil-rich Caucasus and Caspian regions to the east.

The war was deliberately provoked by the US, using as a pretext exaggerated claims of Serbian human rights violations against Kosovar Albanians. By 1998 the US had shifted from denouncing the separatist Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) as terrorists to a policy of arming it, while imposing sanctions on Serbia and bolstering NATO's military capabilities in both Albania and Macedonia. By mid-July, the US and NATO had completed contingency plans for a military intervention in Kosovo, including air strikes and the deployment of ground troops.

On January 15, 1999, the report of a Serbian massacre at the village of Racak, whose veracity is still disputed, provided the pretext for NATO's assault on Serbia. At the Rambouillet talks in February, the Milosevic regime was presented with an ultimatum it could not accept, which included the stationing of a large, long-term NATO force within Kosovo and free access of NATO military forces to all parts of Yugoslavia. On March 24, the first NATO bombs were dropped.

Once the bombing began, and the Serbs countered with their offensive in Kosovo, the US needed to raise the stakes in the propaganda war. As US and NATO bombs rained down on Belgrade and other cities and towns, hitting factories, hospitals, schools, churches, bridges, oil refineries, water and electricity supply installations and even TV stations, the media campaign to demonise the Serb enemy was intensified.

A series of grisly bombings of Serb and Kosovar civilians, including the destruction of passenger trains and assaults on Albanian refugees, followed by NATO's bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, fuelled public concern and distrust of NATO claims. Relations with Russia and China deteriorated. Divisions among the NATO powers widened over the scale of the bombing and the possible introduction of ground troops, with the US and Britain generally finding themselves on one side of the argument, and Germany, France, Italy and Greece on the other.

At the end of May, to keep public opposition at bay and whip their recalcitrant NATO allies into line, the US and Britain again raised the decibel level of anti-Serb propaganda. Milosevic and four other Serbian leaders were indicted for war crimes by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY). Increasingly, Western officials and media pundits placed the blame for anti-Kosovar atrocities on the Serbian people as a whole, who were deemed complicit because of their alleged toleration of the “new Hitler”—Slobodan Milosevic.

In the aftermath of the war, the official pretexts have grown increasingly threadbare. The violence of the KLA against Kosovan Serbs, and its despotic and corrupt methods of rule over the province's Albanian inhabitants, have discredited Western attempts to portray the organisation as a force for democracy and national liberation. Now the claims of genocide have been exposed as well.

NATO's propaganda campaign found a receptive audience amongst a layer of ageing former liberals, ex-radicals and one-time anti-war protesters, who uncritically accepted the claims of NATO and the media and portrayed the military action against Serbia as a turning point in world history—the first war by the major powers conducted for “humanitarian” reasons. In the summer 1999 issue of Dissent magazine, for example, the Democratic Socialists of America representative to the Socialist International, Bogdan Denitch, justified his support for the war with reference to the “genocidal nature of the Yugoslav army's campaign in Kosovo”.

“And genocide is not too strong a word," Denitch declared.

Even more openly and enthusiastically than at the time of the civil war in Bosnia, these forces seized on the US-NATO war against Serbia to demonstratively and publicly make their peace with imperialism. Anyone inclined to think that Denitch and company will feel compelled by the emerging facts to make a serious reappraisal and political accounting for their pro-war stance would best be advised: Don't hold your breath.

See Also:
Atrocity claims and the politics of propaganda:
A second reply to a supporter of the Balkan war
[25 June 1999]
"Operation Horseshoe" —propaganda and reality:
How NATO propaganda misled the public
[29 July 1999]
After the Slaughter: Political Lessons of the Balkan War
[14 June 1999]

http://wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/koso-n09.shtml

The Rational Destruction of Yugoslavia
November 1999

Divide and Conquer

In Croatia, the West’s man-of-the-hour was Franjo Tudjman, who claimed in a book he authored in 1989, that “the establishment of Hitler's new European order can be justified by the need to be rid of the Jews,” and that only 900,000 Jews, not six million, were killed in the Holocaust. Tudjman’s government adopted the fascist Ustasha checkered flag and anthem.5 Tudjman presided over the forced evacuation of over half a million Serbs from Croatia between 1991 and 1995, replete with rapes and summary executions.6 This included the 200,000 from Krajina in 1995, whose expulsion was facilitated by attacks from NATO war planes and missiles. Needless to say, U.S. leaders did nothing to stop and much to assist these atrocities, while the U.S. media looked the other way. Tudjman and his cronies now reside in obscene wealth while the people of Croatia are suffering the afflictions of the free market paradise. Tight controls have been imposed on Croatian media, and anyone who criticizes President Tudjman’s government risks incarceration. Yet the White House hails Croatia as a new democracy.

In Bosnia, U.S. leaders supported the Muslim fundamentalist, Alija Izetbegovic, an active Nazi in his youth, who has called for strict religious control over the media and now wants to establish an Islamic Bosnian republic. Izetbegovic himself does not have the support of most Bosnian Muslims. He was decisively outpolled in his bid for the presidency yet managed to take over that office by cutting a mysterious deal with frontrunner Fikret Abdic.7 Bosnia is now under IMF and NATO regency. It is not permitted to develop its own internal resources, nor allowed to extend credit or self-finance through an independent monetary system. Its state-owned assets, including energy, water, telecommunications, media and transportation, have been sold off to private firms at garage sale prices.

In the former Yugoslavia, NATO powers have put aside neoimperialism and have opted for out-and-out colonial occupation. In early 1999, the democratically elected president of Republika Srpska, the Serb ministate in Bosnia, who had defeated NATO’s chosen candidate, was removed by NATO troops because he proved less than fully cooperative with NATO’s “high representative” in Bosnia. The latter retains authority to impose his own solutions and remove elected officials who prove in any way obstructive.8 This too was represented in the western press as a necessary measure to advance democracy.

In Kosovo, we see the same dreary pattern. The U.S. gave aid and encouragement to violently right-wing separatist forces such as the self-styled Kosovo Liberation Army, previously considered a terrorist organization by Washington. The KLA has been a longtime player in the enormous heroin trade that reaches to Switzerland, Austria, Belgium, Germany, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Norway, and Sweden.9 KLA leaders had no social program other than the stated goal of cleansing Kosovo of all non-Albanians, a campaign that had been going on for decades. Between 1945 and 1998, the non-Albanian Kosovar population of Serbs, Roma, Turks, Gorani (Muslim Slavs), Montenegrins, and several other ethnic groups shrank from some 60 percent to about 20 percent. Meanwhile, the Albanian population grew from 40 to 80 percent (not the 90 percent repeatedly reported in the press), benefiting from a higher birth rate, a heavy influx of immigrants from Albania, and the systematic intimidation and expulsion of Serbs.

In 1987, in an early untutored moment of truth, the New York Times reported: “Ethnic Albanians in the Government have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. . . . Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls. . . . As the Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years . . . an ‘ethnically pure’ Albanian region. . . .’10 Ironically, while the Serbs were repeatedly charged with ethnic cleansing, Serbia itself is now the only multi-ethnic society left in the former Yugoslavia, with some twenty-six nationality groups including thousands of Albanians who live in and around Belgrade.

Demonizing the Serbs

The propaganda campaign to demonize the Serbs fits the larger policy of the Western powers. The Serbs were targeted for demonization because they were the largest nationality and the one most opposed to the breakup of Yugoslavia. None other than Charles Boyd, former deputy commander of the U.S. European command, commented on it in 1994: “The popular image of this war in Bosnia is one of unrelenting Serb expansionism. Much of what the Croatians call ‘the occupied territories’ is land that has been held by Serbs for more that three centuries. The same is true of most Serb land in Bosnia. . . . In short the Serbs were not trying to conquer new territory, but merely to hold onto what was already theirs.” While U.S. leaders claim they want peace, Boyd concludes, they have encouraged a deepening of the war.11

But what of the atrocities they committed? All sides committed atrocities, but the reporting was consistently one-sided. Grisly incidents of Croat and Muslim atrocities against the Serbs rarely made it into the U.S. press, and when they did they were accorded only passing mention.12 Meanwhile Serb atrocities were played up and sometimes even fabricated, as we shall see. Recently, three Croatian generals were indicted by the Hague War Crimes Tribunal for the bombardment and deaths of Serbs in Krajina and elsewhere. Where were U.S. leaders and U.S. television crews when these war crimes were being committed? John Ranz, chair of Survivors of the Buchenwald Concentration Camp, USA, asks: Where were the TV cameras when hundreds of Serbs were slaughtered by Muslims near Srebrenica?13 The official line, faithfully parroted in the U.S. media, is that the Serbs committed all the atrocities at Srebrenica.

Before uncritically ingesting the atrocity stories dished out by U.S. leaders and the corporate-owned news media, we might recall the five hundred premature babies whom Iraqi soldiers laughingly ripped from incubators in Kuwait, a story repeated and believed until exposed as a total fabrication years later. During the Bosnian war in 1993, the Serbs were accused of having an official policy of rape. “Go forth and rape” a Bosnian Serb commander supposedly publicly instructed his troops. The source of that story never could be traced. The commander's name was never produced. As far as we know, no such utterance was ever made. Even the New York Times belatedly ran a tiny retraction, coyly allowing that “the existence of ‘a systematic rape policy’ by the Serbs remains to be proved.”14

Bosnian Serb forces supposedly raped anywhere from 25,000 to 100,000 Muslim women. The Bosnian Serb army numbered not more than 30,000 or so, many of whom were engaged in desperate military engagements. A representative from Helsinki Watch noted that stories of massive Serbian rapes originated with the Bosnian Muslim and Croatian governments and had no credible supporting evidence. Common sense would dictate that these stories be treated with the utmost skepticism — and not be used as an excuse for an aggressive and punitive policy against Yugoslavia.

The mass rape propaganda theme was resuscitated in 1999 to justify NATO’s renewed attacks on Yugoslavia. A headline in the San Francisco Examiner tells us: “SERB TACTIC IS ORGANIZED RAPE, KOSOVO REFUGEES SAY.” Only at the bottom of the story, in the nineteenth paragraph, do we read that reports gathered by the Kosovo mission of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe found no such organized rape policy. The actual number of rapes were in the dozens “and not many dozens,” according to the OSCE spokesperson. This same story did note that the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal sentenced a Bosnian Croat military commander to ten years in prison for failing to stop his troops from raping Muslim women in 1993 — an atrocity we heard little about when it was happening.15

The Serbs were blamed for the infamous Sarajevo market massacre of 1992. But according to the report leaked out on French TV, Western intelligence knew that it was Muslim operatives who had bombed Bosnian civilians in the marketplace in order to induce NATO involvement. Even international negotiator David Owen, who worked with Cyrus Vance, admitted in his memoir that the NATO powers knew all along that it was a Muslim bomb.16 However, the well-timed fabrication served its purpose of inducing the United Nations to go along with the U.S.-sponsored sanctions.

On one occasion, notes Barry Lituchy, the New York Times ran a photo purporting to be of Croats grieving over Serbian atrocities when in fact the murders had been committed by Bosnian Muslims. The Times printed an obscure retraction the following week.17

Yugoslav president Slobodan Milosevic has been described by Bill Clinton as “a new Hitler.” Yet he was not always considered so. At first, the Western press, viewing the ex-banker as a bourgeois Serbian nationalist who might hasten the break-up of the federation, hailed him as a “charismatic personality.” Only later, when they saw him as an obstacle rather than a tool, did they begin to depict him as the demon who “started all four wars.” This was too much even for the managing editor of the U.S. establishment journal Foreign Affairs, Fareed Zakaria. He noted in the New York Times that Milosevic who rules “an impoverished country that has not attacked its neighbors — is no Adolf Hitler. He is not even Saddam Hussein.”19

Some opposition radio stations and newspapers were reportedly shut down during the NATO bombing. But, during my trip to Belgrade in August 1999, I observed nongovernmental media and opposition party newspapers going strong. There are more opposition parties in the Yugoslav parliament than in any other European parliament. Yet the government is repeatedly labeled a dictatorship. Milosevic was elected as president of Yugoslavia in a contest that foreign observers said had relatively few violations. As of the end of 1999, he presided over a coalition government that included four parties. Opposition groups openly criticized and demonstrated against his government. Yet he was called a dictator.

The propaganda campaign against Belgrade has been so relentless that prominent personages on the Left — who oppose the NATO policy against Yugoslavia — have felt compelled to genuflect before this demonization orthodoxy.20 Thus do they reveal themselves as having been influenced by the very media propaganda machine they criticize on so many other issues. To reject the demonized image of Milosevic and of the Serbian people is not to idealize them or claim they are faultless or free of crimes. It is merely to challenge the one-sided propaganda that laid the grounds for NATO's destruction of Yugoslavia.

More Atrocity Stories

Atrocities (murders and rapes) occur in every war, which is not to condone them. Indeed, murders and rapes occur in many peacetime communities. What the media propaganda campaign against Yugoslavia charged was that atrocities were conducted on a mass genocidal scale. Such charges were used to justify the murderous aerial assault by NATO forces.

Up until the bombings began in March 1999, the conflict in Kosovo had taken 2000 lives altogether from both sides, according to Kosovo Albanian sources. Yugoslavian sources had put the figure at 800. In either case, such casualties reveal a limited insurgency, not genocide. The forced expulsion policy began after the NATO bombings, with thousands being uprooted by Serb forces mostly in areas where the KLA was operating or was suspected of operating. In addition, if the unconfirmed reports by the ethnic Albanian refugees can be believed, there was much plundering and instances of summary execution by Serbian paramilitary forces — who were unleashed after the NATO bombing started.

We should keep in mind that tens of thousands fled Kosovo because of the bombings, or because the province was the scene of sustained ground fighting between Yugoslav forces and the KLA, or because they were just afraid and hungry. An Albanian woman crossing into Macedonia was eagerly asked by a news crew if she had been forced out by Serb police. She responded: “There were no Serbs. We were frightened of the [NATO] bombs.”21 During the bombings, an estimated 70,000 to 100,000 Serbian residents of Kosovo took flight (mostly north but some to the south), as did thousands of Roma and other non-Albanian ethnic groups.22 Were these people ethnically cleansing themselves? Or were they not fleeing the bombing and the ground war?

The New York Times reported that “a major purpose of the NATO effort is to end the Serb atrocities that drove more than one million Albanians from their homes.”23 So, we are told to believe, the refugee tide was caused not by the ground war against the KLA and not by the massive NATO bombing but by unspecified atrocities. The bombing, which was the major cause of the refugee problem was now seen as the solution. The refugee problem created in part by the massive aerial attacks was now treated as justification for such attacks, a way of putting pressure on Milosevic to allow “the safe return of ethnic Albanian refugees.”24

While Kosovo Albanians were leaving in great numbers — usually well-clothed and in good health, some riding their tractors, trucks, or cars, many of them young men of recruitment age — they were described as being “slaughtered.” Serbian attacks on KLA strongholds and the forced expulsion of Albanian villagers were described as “genocide.” But experts in surveillance photography and wartime propaganda charged NATO with running a “propaganda campaign” on Kosovo that lacked any supporting evidence. State Department reports of mass graves and of 100,000 to 500,000 missing Albanian men “are just ludicrous,” according to these independent critics.25

As with the Croatian and Bosnian conflicts, the image of mass killings was hyped once again. The Washington Post reported that 350 ethnic Albanians “might be buried in mass graves” around a mountain village in western Kosovo. Such speculations were based on sources that NATO officials refused to identify. Getting down to specifics, the article mentions “four decomposing bodies” discovered near a large ash heap, with no details as to who they might be or how they died.26

An ABC “Nightline” program made dramatic and repeated references to the “Serbian atrocities in Kosovo” while offering no specifics. Ted Kopple asked angry Albanian refugees what they had witnessed? They pointed to an old man in their group who wore a wool hat. The Serbs had thrown the man's hat to the ground and stepped on it, “because the Serbs knew that his hat was the most important thing to him,” they told Kopple, who was appropriately appalled by this one example of a “war crime” offered in the hour-long program.

A widely circulated story in the New York Times, headlined “U.S. REPORT OUTLINES SERB ATTACKS IN KOSOVO,” tells us that the State Department issued “the most comprehensive documentary record to date on atrocities.” The report concludes that there had been organized rapes and systematic executions. But reading further into the article, one finds that stories of such crimes “depend almost entirely on information from refugee accounts. There was no suggestion that American intelligence agencies had been able to verify, most, or even many, of the accounts . . . and the word ‘reportedly’ and ‘allegedly’ appear throughout the document.”27

British journalist Audrey Gillan interviewed Kosovo refugees about atrocities and found an impressive lack of evidence. One woman caught him glancing at the watch on her wrist, while her husband told him how all the women had been robbed of their jewelry and other possessions. A spokesperson for the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees talked of mass rapes and what sounded like hundreds of killings in three villages. When Gillan pressed him for more precise information, he reduced it drastically to five or six teenage rape victims. But he admitted that he had not spoken to any witnesses and that “we have no way of verifying these reports.”28

Gillan noted that some refugees had seen killings and other atrocities, but there was little to suggest that they had seen it on the scale that was being reported. Officials told him of refugees who talked of sixty or more being killed in one village and fifty in another, but Gillan “could not find one eye-witness who actually saw these things happening.” It was always in some other village that the mass atrocities seem to have occurred. Yet every day western journalists reported “hundreds” of rapes and murders. Sometimes they noted in passing that the reports had yet to be substantiated, but then why were such stories being so eagerly publicized?

In contrast to its public assertions, the German Foreign Office privately denied there was any evidence that genocide or ethnic cleansing was a component of Yugoslav policy: “Even in Kosovo, an explicit political persecution linked to Albanian ethnicity is not verifiable. . . . The actions of the [Yugoslav] security forces [were] not directed against the Kosovo-Albanians as an ethnically defined group, but against the military opponent and its actual or alleged supporters.”29

Still, Milosevic was indicted as a war criminal, charged with the forced expulsion of Albanian Kosovars, and with summary executions of a hundred or so individuals. Again, alleged crimes that occurred after the NATO bombing had started were used as justification for the bombing. The biggest war criminals of all were the NATO political leaders who orchestrated the aerial campaign of death and destruction.

As the White House saw it, since the stated aim of the aerial attacks was not to kill civilians; there was no liability, only regrettable mistakes. In other words, only the professed intent of an action counted and not its ineluctable effects. But a perpetrator can be judged guilty of willful murder without explicitly intending the death of a particular victim — as with an unlawful act that the perpetrator knew would likely cause death. As George Kenney, a former State Department official under the Bush Administration, put it: “Dropping cluster bombs on highly populated urban areas doesn’t result in accidental fatalities. It is purposeful terror bombing.”30

In the first weeks of the NATO occupation of Kosovo, tens of thousands of Serbs were driven from the province and hundreds were killed by KLA gunmen in what was described in the western press as acts of “revenge” and “retaliation,” as if the victims were deserving of such a fate. Also numbering among the victims of “retribution” were the Roma, Gorani, Turks, Montenegrins, and Albanians who had “collaborated” with the Serbs by speaking Serbian, opposing separatism, and otherwise identifying themselves as Yugoslavs. Others continued to be killed or maimed by the mines planted by the KLA and the Serb military, and by the large number of NATO cluster bombs sprinkled over the land.31

It was repeatedly announced in the first days of the NATO occupation that 10,000 Albanians had been killed by the Serbs (down from the 100,000 and even 500,000 Albanian men supposedly executed during the war). No evidence was ever offered to support the 10,000 figure, nor even to explain how it was so swiftly determined — even before NATO forces had moved into most of Kosovo.

Repeatedly unsubstantiated references to “mass graves,” each purportedly filled with hundreds or even thousands of Albanian victims also failed to materialize. Through the summer of 1999, the media hype about mass graves devolved into an occasional unspecified reference. The few sites actually unearthed offered up as many as a dozen bodies or sometimes twice that number, but with no certain evidence regarding causes of death or even the nationality of victims. In some cases there was reason to believe the victims were Serbs.32

Lacking evidence of mass graves, by late August 1999 the Los Angeles Times focused on wells “as mass graves in their own right. . . . Serbian forces apparently stuffed...many bodies of ethnic Albanians into wells during their campaign of terror.”33 Apparently? The story itself dwelled on only one village in which the body of a 39-year-old male was found in a well, along with three dead cows and a dog. No cause was given for his death and “no other human remains were discovered.” The well’s owner was not identified. Again when getting down to specifics, the atrocities seem not endemic but sporadic.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/yugoslavia.html

March 07, 2000

Pristina, March 7th - Leader of the Albanian terrorists in Kosmet, Hashim Tachi, told recently foreign reporters, quoted by the Voice of Russia, about the methods of demonizing Serbs, i.e. how his terrorist KLA committed crimes in order to urgently provoke western military intervention in Yugoslavia.

Although, according to the Voice of Russia, a bizarre figure, Tachi, chosen by Washington to "represent" Albanian interests in the province, confessed that the Albanian separatists' tactics, in the last year's aggression on Yugoslavia, amounted to a major provoking of Yugoslav Army and police forces.

Frequent attacks on Serbian police and YA troops in this period weren't the actions of the so-called guerilla against the occupier, as the Kosmet terrorists and their order givers, first of all from the US and Germany, tried to present, but provocations calculated to challenge the legitimate security forces, whose response should have been at any cost declared a repressive act and violation of human rights.

Thus, according to Tachi in their attacks on Yugoslav troops and police, the Albanian terrorists used local civilians as human shields. That inevitably led to civilian casualties, which was used by the West in brutal attacks on Serbia and Yugoslavia, all because of the so-called protection of Albanian human rights in Kosmet, reports the radio.

According to the foreign media reports, quoted by the Russian radio, obviously "carried away", Tachi mentioned the well known incident in the village of Racak, which is a tragic repetition of the scenario realized at Markale market in Sarajevo, during the civil war in Bosnia.

Tachi revealed a public secret and confessed that the KLA members committed the murder of four Serbian policemen in Racak.

Furthermore, the Voice of Russia quotes Tachi, who confirmed that the terrorists killed the Serbian policemen on purpose in order to provoke adequate reaction. Indeed, a police action followed, but it was no punitive expedition of Serb special forces against Albanian farmers, but a legitimate operation against the Albanian extremists, who made their stronghold in Racak.

Tachi admitted that, later on, the bodies of the KLA members, killed in the clashes in the area of Racak, were discovered.

The alleged massacre in the village of Racak was invented on the basis of some dozen discovered bodies. However, an independent international expertise followed, and the OSCE experts from Byelorussia and Finland, established that the bodies belonged to the KLA extremists.

In spite of this, NATO and the leading western countries blamed Belgrade for the killing of the so-called Albanian farmers from Racak. That was the first in a series of accusations in an already worked out scenario for deceiving the international public, i.e. preparing the field for the NATO aggression on Yugoslavia, stressed the radio.

"Some other false testimonies on the so-called ethnic cleansing of the Albanians carried out by the Yugoslav authorities were never confirmed" says the reporter and reminds that the investigation was conducted by very prominent organizations, like the UN, OSCE, British Parliament Commission etc.

The US, British and Spanish experts from the NATO countries concluded that 50,000 innocent civilians were never killed, as it was claimed by the manipulated western media, but several hundred extremists.

Tachi failed to explain one thing - how was a terrorist organization, like his KLA, transformed by force in some kind of "Albanian resistance" to Belgrade?

When they appeared on the scene, only two years ago, KLA troops were called extreme and compared to the Red Khmers, who massacred their own people in Cambodia, reports the radio and adds that even the American CIA added this gang on the list of world terrorist organizations.

However, this crowd of idlers and mobsters - at first scarcely dressed and poorly armed - entered Kosmet last year, following KFOR troops and pretended to be the only legitimate authority.

Their violence and terror against the remaining Serbs are now being disguised by influenced media and humanitarian organizations in the West, because they have no other way to justify the aggression on a sovereign country and their current actions in Kosovo-Metohija, concludes the Voice of Russia.
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38c606aa189b.htm

The NATO-Media
Lie Machine

“Genocide” in Kosovo?

By Edward S. Herman & David Peterson

NATO’s “humanitarian” enterprise in Kosovo was built on a structure of lies, many of them flowing from NATO headquarters and officials of the NATO powers, and uncritically passed along by the mainstream media of the NATO countries. One of the great ironies of Operation Allied Force, NATO’s brief 1999 war against Serbia, was that Yugoslavia’s broadcasting facilities were bombed by NATO on the claim that they were a “lie machine” serving the Yugoslav apparatus of war. This was contrasted with the NATO media, which in the view of NATO officials, and in that of media personnel as well, were “objective” and provided what Richard Holbrooke described as “exemplary” coverage. It never occurred to media leaders and journalists that Holbrooke’s accolade should embarrass them—although were Slobodan Milosevic to have lauded the Serb media’s performance as “exemplary” we suspect their NATO-bloc counterparts would have interpreted this as proof of the “lie machine” accusation. The double standard runs deep.

An important reason for the congruity between Holbrooke’s and the media’s views was the sense of self-righteousness that accompanied Operation Allied Force. The belief that NATO was fighting a “just war” against an evil enemy had been so well cultivated over the prior decade that for the media, “getting on the team” and thereby promoting the war effort seemed perfectly consistent with “objective” news reporting. This perspective, which was not shared by most governments and media outside NATO, or by a vigorous but marginalized media within the NATO countries, was ideal from the viewpoint of the NATO war managers, as it made their mainstream media into de facto propaganda arms of NATO. Ultimately, this gave NATO and its dominant governments a freedom to ignore both international opinion and international law—and to destroy and kill—that would have been far more difficult to achieve if their media’s performance had been less “exemplary.”

Genocide Politicized

One of the many successes of the NATO-media lie machine was effectively pinning the label of “genocide” on the Serbs for their operations in Kosovo. “Genocide,” like “terrorism,” is an invidious but fuzzy word, that has long been used in propaganda to describe the conduct of official enemies. It conjures up images of Nazi death camps and is frequently used along with the word “holocaust” to describe killings that are being condemned. On the Nazi-Jewish Holocaust model, genocide implies the attempt to wipe out an entire people. But in the Genocide Convention of 1948 the word was defined more loosely as any act “committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group as such.” The Convention even included in genocide acts that were causing serious “mental harm” or inflicting “conditions of life” aimed at such destruction. This vagueness has contributed to its politicization, and Peter Novick notes how in the 1950s its users “focused almost exclusively on the crimes—sometimes real, sometimes imagined—of the Soviet bloc” (The Holocaust in American Life).

It is a notorious fact that the Clinton administration carefully refrained from using the word genocide to apply to the huge 1994 Rwanda massacres of Tutsis by the Hutus. To have allowed the word to be used there would have suggested a need to act, and having decided not to act, the decision to avoid using an emotive word that might have mobilized public opinion on the need to act followed accordingly. By contrast, in the case of Kosovo, the decision to act demanded the mobilization of opinion to support violent intervention, so the aggressive use of the word genocide followed.

In the context of the wars over the disintegration of Yugoslavia, and in its opportunistic use elsewhere, the word genocide has been applied loosely wherever people are killed who are deemed “worthy” victims. In our view this is not only opportunism but also a corruption of meaning of a word whose unique sense implies not just killing or massacre but an attempted extermination of a people, in whole or substantial part.

Genocide Pinned on Serbia

The word genocide was applied to the Serbs in the early 1990s by some Western analysts and journalists who had aligned themselves with other Yugoslav factions (notably the Bosnian Muslims), but it came into intense use during the NATO 78-day bombing campaign and briefly thereafter. In good part this escalated usage was a result of the virtual hysteria of NATO leaders at the Serb reaction to their bombing, which had been put forward as necessary to stop Serb brutalities against the Kosovo Albanians but which caused their exponential increase. With the help of the media, and cries of genocide, Tony Blair, Bill Clinton, Gerhard Schroeder, and other NATO spokespersons were able to transform the consequences of their bombing strategy—the refugee crisis—into its retrospective justification.

To make their case the NATO leaders needed generous numbers of victims, stories of Serb terror, and images of women and children in flight or being put on expulsion trains, allowing recollections of trains to Auschwitz. The number allegedly “missing” and suggested to represent massacre victims by William Cohen on May 16 was 100,000, a figure which peaked at 500,000 in a State Department estimate. Both during and after the bombing campaign the main interest of the cooperative NATO media was in finding victims; a scramble to unearth and report on “mass graves” was launched. There were many victims, but the media’s appetite for them was insatiable and their gullibility led them to make numerous errors, exaggerations, and misrepresentations (see Philip Hammond and Edward S. Herman, eds., Degraded Capability: The Media and the Kosovo Crisis, forthcoming from Pluto press, for many illustrations). Numerous published images of departing Albanian woman and children were linked to the “Holocaust,” although as one British commentator noted “the Nazis did not put Jews on the train to Israel, as the Serbs are now putting ethnic Albanian Kosovars on the train to Albania” (Julie Burchill, Guardian, April 10, 1999).

The word genocide was applied to Serb operations in Kosovo even before the NATO bombing, although the number killed in the prior 15 months was perhaps 2,000 on all sides and despite the fact that there was no evidence of an intent to exterminate or expel all Albanians. The Kosovo conflict was a civil war with defining ethnic overtones and brutal but not unfamiliar repression (less ferocious than that carried out by the Croatian army against the Krajina Serbs in August 1995, in which some 2,500 civilians were slaughtered in the course of a few days). Even for the period of the bombing the term genocide is ludicrously inapplicable. The Serb reaction to bombing, while frequently savage, was based on their correct understanding that the KLA was linked to NATO and that NATO was giving it air support (Tom Walker and Aidan Laverty, “CIA Aided Kosovo Guerrilla Army,” Sunday Times [London], March 13, 2000). Their brutalities and expulsions were concentrated in KLA stronghold areas, and those expelled were sent not to death camps but to safe havens outside Kosovo. The intensive postwar search for killings and mass graves has produced under 3,000 dead bodies from all causes—killings of the same order of magnitude as the 1995 Krajina massacres of Serbs, carried out with U.S. support.

In short, the use of the word genocide for Serb actions in Kosovo was gross propaganda rhetoric designed to mislead as to the facts and to provide the moral basis for aggressive intervention. It paralleled the use of the War Crimes Tribunal to indict Milosevic in the midst of the NATO bombing campaign—an indictment that was also designed to justify NATO’s increasingly civilian-oriented (and illegal) bombing of Serbia by demonizing the head of the state under NATO attack.

Media & Left NATO Propaganda

Having encouraged the disintegration of Yugoslavia from 1991, and actually obstructed peaceful solutions to the problem of protecting minorities in breakaway states, the policies of Germany and the United States in particular assured ethnic violence. Their chosen villain was Serbia, and an intense official and media focus on Serb crimes followed. This involved not only selectivity of outrage and a misreading of causes and locus of responsibility, but also a demonization process helped along by the one-sided, ahistorical portrayal of events frequently infused with disinformation (as in the British news station ITN’s fabrication of a “death” or “concentration” camp at the Trnopolje refugee center in 1992; see Thomas Deichmann, “The Picture That Fooled the World,” Living Marxism, Feb. 1997).

Demonization and the continuous purveying of atrocity news created a moral environment receptive to charges of genocide. This reached deeply into the liberal and left communities and media, with many liberals or leftists passionate supporters of “doing something,” including the NATO bombing war. This was to be expected of the New Republic, where the notion of collective Serb guilt a la Daniel Jonah Goldhagen’s Hitler’s Willing Executioners, conveniently justifying attacking Serbian civil society and committing war crimes, found a happy home. (Stacy Sullivan, “Milosevic’s Willing Executioners,” New Republic, May 10, 1999). But it also affected the Nation, whose UN Correspondent Ian Williams was pleased to see the UN bypassed in the interest of humanitarian bombing (April 2, 1999), and where Kai Bird (June 14, 1999) and Christopher Hitchens (November 29, 1999, among others) both found Serb behavior “genocidal” in the course of their quasi-defenses of NATO policy. Only Hitchens seemed to suggest that the Serbs were trying to exterminate a people (based on ludicrous arguments; see Herman, “Hitchens on Serbia and East Timor,” Z Magazine, April 1999).

In the mainstream media, genocide was used even more lavishly and uncritically. Often it was presented in the form of assertions by officials, with numbers like Cohen’s 100,000, but reporters or commentators rarely if ever challenged the figures or questioned whether the actions designated as genocidal were intended to exterminate a people. It was rare indeed to mention the difference between trains to Auschwitz and to the Albanian border, as did Julie Churchill in the Guardian.

Genocide was used as a symbol of aversion and disapproval, justifying extreme measures against the “dictator” and his people—the media felt impelled to call Milosevic a “dictator” even though this put a crimp in condemning “ordinary Serbs” as responsible for his actions, but they managed to do both at the same time (Anthony Lewis, “The Question of Evil,” NYT, June 22, 1999). Some commentators were carried away by their own passion, David Rieff, a New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Chistopher Hitchens favorite, asserting that “the Milosevic regime was trying to eradicate an entire people” (“Wars Without End?,” NYT, September 23, 1999). But most commentators were satisfied with using the word without getting specific as to meaning or providing facts. They never acknowledged any military rationale to the post-bombing expulsions and killings: it was evil people doing evil things for evil reasons.

In a masterpiece of the NATO anti-genocide apologetics genre, the New York Times provided Sebastian Junger’s “A Different Kind of Killing” (NYT Magazine, February 27, 2000), where it is explained that even if the number of bodies found in Kosovo were not of genocidal scope and some stories turned out to be untrue, nevertheless “A single murder can be considered an act of genocide if it can be shown that there was an intent to kill everyone else in that person’s group.” Junger then recounts his visit to the site of an unclaimed body of a teenage woman, allegedly kidnapped, raped, and killed by Serbian “irregular forces.” Junger then says that, “it was not until this century that a mechanized army carried out such crimes in the service of its government. That is genocide; the rest is just violence.” Junger makes not the slightest effort to show that the “irregular forces” had done this as part of a government plan and “in the service of its government” rather than on their own, or that the KLA or U.S. army didn’t carry out similar acts. In short, this is completely worthless nonsense—but it pins the word genocide on the official enemy, and therefore the New York Times allows this travesty to appear in its sunday magazine.

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/hermanmay2000.htm

Photos of Serbs tortured by Albanian KLA:

http://www.compuserb.com/cossack/index.htm

This is all that matters:

Our one sided intervention in Yugoslavia is mostly responsible for the icy relations between the US and Russia. We need all the allies we can get, including Serbs, Croatians, and Slovenes.
We can thank Clinton and the biased press for screwing it all up.

Another quick note:

Please avoid posting very long articles in their entirety. Provide the link, paste in some compelling parts; that's fine. But having to scroll through screen after screen of text (especially if we've seen it before, or if it's something someone else wrote) has a "derailing" effect on the thread.

We frequently omit parts of articles at JW that are irrelevant or old news, signaled with a "[...]." That's one reason we provide the link, and if it's an extended article, a suggestion to "read it all."

"Please avoid posting very long articles in their entirety. Provide the link, paste in some compelling parts; that's fine. But having to scroll through screen after screen of text (especially if we've seen it before, or if it's something someone else wrote) has a "derailing" effect on the thread."

But of course. I couldn't agree more. I am simply fighting fire with fire in response to the site's heretofore failure to discipline the one poster who has been allowed to hammer our heads with impunity with one-sided propoganda that takes minutes to scroll through. The point is that 2 can play that game. It's not a game I want to play. But it's a game we can all play ad naueseum in order to even the playing field until the site starts to impose some consistent discipline on all all sides equally.

P.S. And the purported victim's cries of claiming to be silenced!, while simultaneously getting a free pass by the site to post her endlessly pasted articles instead of links, and with apparent impunity by the site's monitors - are simply outrageous. Therefore, it is my feeling that the only just resolution, until the site steps in to stop it, is to do the same damn thing.

Morgaan,

It is not a tactic, but I will say it certainly is working. There's plenty here to debate now, quite respectfully presented, although obviously contrary to your position, and more readable. Feel free to engage.

Thanks again to Marisol for all she does for JW/DW. It is much appreciated.

As a promise to you Morgaan, I will watch the next Kosovo thread as you asked, from the beginning, if I am available of course.

Regards,

awake

Caroline,

Marisol's point is valid. Do not take it personally, for it was not intended as such.

Regards,

awake

Caroline, as awake stated above do not take Marisol personally, I don't believe she intended that.

I would also like to say I'm in complete agreement with you on why you posted as you did. It is strange that Morgaan could post like this endlessly, and it takes someone opposing her to have this nonsense stopped.

Take care all.

Fanatic--

There's been a lot that's been removed, actually. The thread would be pushing 200 posts by now except for occasional attempts to rein it in.

All of this is pretty standard policy, not new.

I've found this posting by Robert (especially the fourth paragraph) from March, 2006 to be a handy reference in deciding what should be deleted:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010494.php

Tell me one thing, Morgaan , why was the prosecution at the ICTY unable to come up with a single witness who testified that they'd been forced to leave Kosovo by the Serb forces?

Not even one.

In fact, at the ICTY , KLA commanders have recently confirmed that they told the Kosovo Albanian population to leave.

P.S You've gotta laugh. The Macdonian doctors didn't have a single case of any Kosovo Albanian woman who'd been raped by the Serb forces BUT the Kosovo Albanians tried to rape the Israeli doctors.

Bloody Joooooooooz.

Those bloody Jewish women were making the muslims rape them.

Morgaan , name a single prosecution witness at the Kosovo section of the Slobo trial who was even remotely adequate.

ONE , and you get to name him and we'll discuss his testimony.

There were 124 and they all stunk . BIG TIME But that's just my opinion

Marisol

I appreciate what you've done on this thread, which would indeed be somewhere between 200-300 posts by now had you not intervened. That said, I agree with Caroline above that this is a suggestion that needs to be uniformly applied, and habitual violators need to be disciplined. Besides, your deletions did not address the question of substituting whole articles with links - something never done by Morgaan. But if you were the one who deleted the timeline of Yugoslavia's post 1991 history, hats off to you - we are heartily sick of it.

Awake

For the next Kosovo thread, here is a suggestion, if you, or anyone else happens to follow it. See whether Morgaan posts something actually relevant to whatever that article is, instead of her usual rants about whether Serbia should be allowed to keep Kosovo (we know by now that she is opposed to that idea), or the timeline about Yugoslavia's history. In this thread, someone @ JW did us all a favor by deleting that stupid post Yugoslavia timeline that she posted, as well as several of her posts. Instead of reading several reports from the EU or other sources such as András Riedlmayer, or Cordova protocols, or whatever, let her actually post something actually germane to the topic. This thread, for instance, was about selling out not just the Serbs, but Bosnian Christians as well, in addition to discussion about Milosevic's rival Dodic: you won't see a thing about that in this thread from her. Instead, we see countless articles re-copied from sources that were previously included in prior Serb related threads.

My point is that there are issues re: Serbia that are of potential interest to us - be it Jihadi activity in the Sandzak region in Serbia proper, Bosnian Jihad activities, Albanian activities against Montenegro and Macedonia, to name a few. I for one would like to see discussions on those with Serb, Greek, Croat, Macedonian, Montenegrin and other participants here. I don't want to see a rehash of by now famous arguments of what Morgaan thinks about Serbia vs. Kosovo regardless of what the actual subject of the thread is - I know.

Let her do that, and I for one will avoid any major confrontation with her.

"Quoting of one disinformation session from Milosevic's own trial (with its intimidated witnesses) does not a truth make. I have to say it's the height of chutpah for a Serb to get on this board and deny rape as a tool of war against Kosovars, Bosnians and Croats during the War. Ridiculous, and beneath the dignity even of the worst kind of person.Watching this is like watching somebody try to quote Hitler at Nurembourg."

Hmmmmmmm !

Morgaan's making a - oh so subtle - connection between Slobo at the Hague and Hitler at the Nuremburg trials - you know it's the trials she's referring to and not the rallies in the city because , obviously , no witnesses were put under oath at the rallies , unlike the trials

One small point, Hitler topped himself before the trials actually started .

Small point .

You know , being dead and therefore not being able to call witnesses . Let alone cross examine them .

Oh and the irony .

The Nuremburg trials were - largely - about the NAZIS and the Holocaust . Well , the Serbs biggest supporters were the Israelis . Do yourself a favour and read what the Likudniks in the Knesset had to say about the Balkans wars , for example , or figure out why the the Bosnian Serb police force were kitted out with Israeli gear .

See the irony ?

Also , since your heroes the kla have started running Kosovo , we've had schools renamed after WW2 Nazi heroes , roads renamed in their memory and we've had Nazi themed pubs doing roaring trade

Ah ! sweet irony.

From the first of Caroline's reports:

The report denounced not only Arab nationalist, leftist and Islamic movements for not condemning Serbian crimes more forcefully, but also Arab capitals, including Cairo, for adopting what the report describes as a "weak and ambiguous" stand towards the NATO operation. Instead of openly condemning the military intervention in the Balkans, Arab governments expressed their disapproval in an indirect manner, through asserting that any such move should be undertaken under the auspices of the United Nations, not by a military pact, and only on the basis of a mandate from the Security Council which alone could invest the operation with legitimacy.

In my address to the Cairo University seminar (I was asked to comment on the first section of the report), I criticised the report for skirting the all-important issue of international legality and for failing to address the vital question of when military intervention by NATO in the absence of a mandate from the UN Security Council could be regarded as an acceptable option.

Also, from a Muslim POV, it was ridiculous for the Arab League or the OIC to suggest that the West take this to the UN. The reason BJ took it to NATO instead of the UN was that he knew that in the UN, it would be DOA, courtesy Moscow. As a result, he decided to go around Russian objections by going through the NATO, and that's how things went. If the US had gone to the UN, got vetoed and then gone to NATO, they'd have looked like spoiled brats. Therefore, the stance that the Arab League had at the time, while agreeable from a Serb/Russian POV, was inexplicable given their ostensible support for the Muslims.

What's Morgaan's definition of , say , "the worst kind of person" ?

Morgaan"Quoting of one disinformation session from Milosevic's own trial (with its intimidated witnesses) does not a truth make.....Ridiculous, and beneath the dignity even of the worst kind of person.Watching this is like watching somebody try to quote Hitler at Nurembourg."

In Morgaan's eyes , people who quote medical doctors at a trial are "the worst kind of person"

How dare anyone read what a medical doctor has to say at a trial , and then to have the affrontary to post it on a relevant thread too

Morgaan hates reading medical doctors' testimony so much she compares it to Hitler.

Great priorities.

Equating Hitler to a medical doc.

BTW The fatuous comparing of Hitler's crimes is a favourite Holocaust denier ploy . You know , if you say something , say "Here's the testimony of a medical doc" and the Holocaust denier replies "Quoting a doc is no better than Hitler"

This fatuous comparison not only insults all medical doctors - as in this case - it also lessons Hitler's crimes .

Good post IP

Also , because of the history of Turkey , we get some rather strange bedfellows .

The Arabs aren't exactly enamoured with Turkey , historically , and neither are many of the Infidels in the Balkans .

Hence Mladic would refer to the Islamists in Sarajevo as "Turks" . Others use the word "Balijas" - a Nazi Muslim

Hence the lukewarm reaction to NATO's Dhimmified bombing in 99

Also , the Arab Nationalist governments are in a constant war with the MB - see Hama in Syria for example - and the Serbs were fighting - both in Kosovo and Bosnia - literally 1,000's of the nutters .

I also imagine that the warm relations under Tito with many Arab countries were also a factor .

ewha1

The Tito factor is there, but that's a fallout of that other worthless piece of excrement called the Non-Aligned Movement - founded by Nehru, Tito and Nasser. Although given that Tito was a Croat, I think it rather strange that Serbia should choose to befriend the Arabs. Although, being at the receiving end of US hostility, they probably had no choice but to befriend Saddam. That done, during this war, Serbia was a more real ally than others by giving the US what secrets it had sold Saddam. Given that support for Belgrade, the US support for anti-Serb forces is contemptible.

I would re-phrase your previous paragraph - Arab nationalism is after all a subset of Islam. What you probably wanted to say that Baathists were in constant war with the majority Muslim sects - in Iraq, they are at war with the Shia Mahdis, while in Syria, they are at war with the MB. Therefore, supporting Jihads in Bosnia or Kosovo is probably low on their priorities, even though they support Jihads outside their own countries, such as Israel.

However, if the Kurds get restive, don't be surprised to see an Arab-Turk alliance, which in turn could disrupt Turkey's friendship with Israel, and thereby invert Israel's relations with Greece. As far as Serbia goes, from what I understand, Israel has been quite pro-Serbian.

Svemirko

"Just Morgaan try to imagine that your country invade some foreign force, rule over you for 5 centuries, rape you, yes personaly you, impose ius primae nocte (first wedding night),take your only son to make him quite opposite of those what you and your husband (God rest his soul) would do, and than when somehow you finnally liberate from those bastards, you hear them rejoicing over humiliation they inflict on you"

Speechless, far worse than murder...I am really sad that the Serbs have to go all through this, and will never forgive the croats who teamed up with the Nazis to cleanse the serbs, nor the Bosnians, nor the Albanians, nor the Ottomons who ravaged asia minor and the balkans...the only.
Sometimes when I think how might we Indians have suffered under the Islamic rule, our history and struggle under the Islamic rule is suppressed but we often hear and some monuments testify how our women burned themselves alive so as to protect their honour when their lands fell to Islamic brutalism. American Political bosses might have did that is because of oil contracts from the Saudis...and kickbacks...or else there is no reason ....I cant believe in America such a zombies exists in the intelligence that they cannot determine what is truth and what is lie and propaganda...

"Deserbification of the Serbs. Its dechristianisation (they like to say demythologization) of it. The so needed katarsis. And after that, we would be purified for new europian society, devoid of any unnececary baggage, like christianity, history, or moral. But we will be finally liberalized people. Actually nation as dead as many other europian. Living just to earn money to pay a tax to overbirocratized system."

Stripping of lands of their ancient heritage, culture and traditions amounts to cultural genocide, the muslims are very accomplished doing this, now Serbia should tred the path of Israel building strong military, embrace science and defend it the way the Israelis do...just with open borders with these nations Serbia, is going to be ravaged ...
What is the % of muslims in independent Serbia are there any muslims in Serbian country...if there are it is better not to allow them to live in Serbia, they should be send to any country..bsonia, Albani what eer to Islamic hell hole, or else Serbia will risk another parition when the Muslims increase there numbers and serbia will be bled drop by drop by the muslims within supported by their Islamic brothers from the borders the way they are doing it with India, who out of its historical tolerance allowed muslims to stay and the muslims pay our gratitude by terrorist strikes.. I hope the sebians would be vary of this fact..and formulate their policy of governance of their country with this in view

Also, Turkey becoming Islamic will achieve the same thing i.e. Arab-Turk alliance

Thanks IP

"that's a fallout of that other worthless piece of excrement called the Non-Aligned Movement"

Snigger.

"US support for anti-Serb forces is contemptible."

Yup. As is their support for Pakistand and - at best - tepid support for India . How can such a great country faulter so badly

"However, if the Kurds get restive, don't be surprised to see an Arab-Turk alliance, which in turn could disrupt Turkey's friendship with Israel, and thereby invert Israel's relations with Greece. As far as Serbia goes, from what I understand, Israel has been quite pro-Serbian."

About Turkey

Don't you get the feeling it's the calm before the storm ? The islamists on a - seemingly - unstoppable rise . So at some point , the "secularists" simply HAVE to react . Who knows .

About Israel and Serbia

I seem to recall that Israel didn't recall it's ambassador during NATO's Dhimmified bombing in 99 - like a pampered bully , America threw a wobbly and got it's knickers in a twist .

Israel was very VERY pro Serbian during the Balkans wars.

The police are armed and kitted out with Israeli made gear . The MUP in the Bosnian war - think of the MUP as like a really heavily armed police - were fitted with Israeli bullet proof vests , uzis , the works . Also Isreali arms dealers made enourmous arms deals with Slobo - via one of his business buddies - in the early 90's - no way they'd do a deal without Israeli Gov't approval - famously , the Bosnian Serb artillery fired shells sold by Israel and perhaps even more importantly , the Israelis gave the VRS - Bosnian Serb army - vital surveillance and intelligence on the enemy .

The Israelis always seem to be on the good side -whether Biafra , Bosnia etc -

And as my dad said , they make the desert bloom too

OTOH the Kosovo Albanian "refugees" tried to rape the Israeli doctors .

Bloody Jooooooooz . Desperate to be raped by a muslim .

If anyone wants to get confirmation about the state of affairs in Kosovo, Bosnia and the Serbs they can refer to these source (I have put the political inclination next to them so I don't get accused of using communist sources):

http://www.strategicstudies.org/

Center-Right (conservative)

http://www.cato.org

Libertarian-Right (conservative).

If anyone wants to get professional advice on what is happening in Kosovo and Bosnia and all the big lies just contact the foreign affairs depts. of these major and influential Washington D.C. think tanks. Slowly the others are coming around too.

And lastly, I want to mention something about the "placid" "moderate" Muslims. There is no such thing. Bosnians and Albanians are only like that because they were secularized by the atheist communist system. Once they start to read the Koran et al they will become like all the rest: hating non-Muslims, wanting to convert them, kill them, expel them, wage war on them, destroy their holy places, rape their women and children, and lastly if this fails wage terror on their civilian populations.

I hope Mr. Daniel Pipes starts to realize this .He singles out Turkey as an exemplary case of Islam having succeeded with democracy. First, Turkey is a quasi-democracy. If it were truly democratic Islam would take over. The military has emasculated the Islamic movement --- for now. That's not to say that subliminal remnants of hate for non-Muslims does not still exist. It does and it expresses itself in the guise of ultra-nationalist political ideology.

Morgaan recently compared naughty Adolf to a Macedonian doctor who'd dared to testified as to what he'd seen whilst helping the Kosovo Albanian "refugees"

Hmmmmmmmm

So Hitler is in the same league as a Good Samaritan doc is he ?

Hmmmmmmmmmm

And earlier she'd compared Slobo to Hitler.

Let's have a closer look at that shall we.

Well, the Bosnian war , on all sides claimed 100,000 . Tops.

100,000

That's both military and civ. Bosnian Croat , Bosnian muslim , Bosnian Serb , Bosnian muslims who fought for the Serbs - Abdic's boys - etc.

100,000

So , even if we put down all those deaths down to Slobo - every one - we are still left with the claim that Hitler's misdeeds are comparable to 100,000 dead.

Hmmmmmmmmmm

psssss , the KLA torched the entire Pristina Jewish community out of their houses yet this hasn't raised the slightest criticism from you

Now I'm beginning to understand why

So , Hitler's crimes are comparable to

a) the deaths of 100,000

or / and

b) a Good Samaritan doc who'd testified as to what he'd seen whilst saving lives

Morgaan:"Quoting of one disinformation session from Milosevic's own trial (with its intimidated witness'es) does not a truth make. I have to say it's the height of chutpah for a Serb to get on this board and deny rape as a tool of war against Kosovars, Bosnians and Croats during the War. Ridiculous, and beneath the dignity even of the worst kind of person.Watching this is like watching somebody try to quote Hitler at Nurembourg."

A direct comparison between a medical doc testimony at the ICTY with Hitler's speeches.

So a medical doctor , who tried to help other people , is analogous with Hitler. According to Morgaan that is.

From purplemarbles.

"http://www.strategicstudies.org/

Center-Right (conservative)"

Oh , the ISSA is waaaaaaaaaaay to the right.

They're Bodansky's boys.

Bodansky's a big fan with the SUC , and - with aaaagh a US politician whose name I've forgotten aaaaagh - went to Serbia to show his support for them , during NATO's Dhimmitude bombing campaign in 99

It's been said a lot of his info comes from Mossad . He puts in a 20 hour day , wrote the book on bin laden , has had numerous death threats made against him.....and loves big band jazz.

Here are some of Bodansky's articles from the Freeman site

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/bodanska.htm

Infidel Pride might be interested in the Kashmir articles . Bodansky is very very pro India

Copely's another hero of the ISSA

And , of course , rnath_verma could well be interested too.

Sorry for leaving you out , rnath_verma

Awake: I believe my point is taken on the evidence of the number of ad hominem attacks made, with no provocation or response from me over the last 24 hours. That is psychofascist bullying designed to intimidate any dissent off the boards.

Marisol: Obviously, if you shut down and continue to remove the "timeline" you make sure nobody can see what actually happened in the Balkans, which is what is discussed on this board every day. So, it's clear what the intent of that decision is.

If we were that intent on suppressing/silencing dissent, why are you still here?

Dissent alone doesn't get deleted; I can think of several long-standing posters who disagree with Jihad Watch on any number of issues. What prompts deletions is, most generally, the hindrance, in some way, of the operation of the site.

Such hindrances include bad commenting etiquette (for lack of a better word). For example, the endless copying and pasting of anything, especially on more than one occasion, as was the case with the timeline, is unacceptable. Not to silence or persecute any one individual-- that should go without saying.

Post a link. If you don't have a link for the timeline, get a free website-- maybe something at Blogspot, and it can take up space there, not here.

I would suggest that if you really support of the success of this site and its mission, you'd respect its standard practices, which, as demonstrated by the link in my comment above, are not my invention.

That's all I have to say about it. I hope my intentions -- the good of Jihad Watch -- are clearer.

Morgaan,

With all due respect, ewha1 was responding to your existing posts, in your absence, which is not out of line. The tone, while not what I would personally endorse, was tame and intended as a dig on your position, which many posters obviously disagree with. It was also followed with supporting evidence for their opinion. That is the basis for a fair debate.

People like yourself and Infidel Pride, for example, probably will never see eye to eye on a great many things, the history of the Balkans being the most noticable. So be it. This is not an on-line chat room and we are not here to make friends, or at least as a prime focus.

This issue seems to have you on one side and many on the other. So be it. Calling it an "unimpeachable" timeline does not make it so and posting it repeatedly is against the forum rules as Marisol has aptly pointed out to you and others more than once.

Learn to play the game a little and you will see it pay dividends. Let the ad hominers strut their stuff to their own demise here.

You have not only attacked posters, whether they deserved it or not, I don't know, but you have also attacked Hugh and Marisol on many occasions, most noticably, in this thread.

There is no future in that. Give in a little to procedure, not your beliefs, and see improvement.

I am not attacking you and I want to make it clear that I for one would like to see you stay, but I can't help you if you won't help yourself a little.

Regards,

awake

Awake ...

If you are too blind to see this, I can't help you by responding more.

Being sarchastic is the same as a "psychofascist" ?

That's up there with your Hitler speeches = Good Samaritan's testimony analogy .

You're a genius . Really you are . And majestic . And cute .

I have made no speech on Hitler, nor referred to one, nor mentioned Hitler on this thread. I have also not mentioned the Good Samaritan.

But that won't stop YOU guys! God knows.

Morgaan

Instead of making empty claims like Muslim spokespeople, name ONE person with your POV on the Balkans who no longer posts here for the reasons you've described. Or one person with your POV of anything whose gone - be it on Mustafa Akyol, Daniel Pipes, Stephen Schwartz, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Srdja Trifkovic, et al. Most people recognize this site as an anti-Jihad (and by extension, anti-Islamic), and if they really are pro-Muslim, they more often than not would either go to mainstream blogs of the major newspapers or TV/Radio stations, or to the websites of Muslim sympathizers like Esmay or down and out Muslim websites, like ummah.net.

Here is a challenge - the next time there's a post on the Balkans, how about sticking to that topic and posting, whatever that is? Like for instance, for this thread, you would have done well to write about Dodic, and whether you think he's any better than Milosevic or Kostunica (sp?), rather than just re-paste the timeline and copious articles. Or else, as Marisol suggests, find your own space at blogspot, or go to Danielpipes.org or Stephen Schwarz' website, and continue there - there won't be any 'psychofascists' after you, since you happen to be on the same page as them.

Ooh , liar liar pants on fire

HERE'S THE COMPARISON BETWEEN HITLER'S SPEECHES AND THE MEDICAL DOCTOR'S - good samaritan - TESTIMONY

"Morgaan:"Quoting of one disinformation session from Milosevic's own trial (with its intimidated witness'es) does not a truth make. I have to say it's the height of chutpah for a Serb to get on this board and deny rape as a tool of war against Kosovars, Bosnians and Croats during the War. Ridiculous, and beneath the dignity even of the worst kind of person.Watching this is like watching somebody try to quote Hitler at Nurembourg."

You made a direct comparison between Hitler's speeches and the Macedonian medics' testimony .

These are very good , decent , kind people : Macedonia was - and still is - a relatively poor country - by the US's standards at least - yet when 100,000 Kosovo Albanian "refugees" came to the place , the people did all they could , with food , water , medical help , etc

And the wise , lovely Morgaan compares these people's testimony to Hitler's speeches?

And then complains about "ad hominem attacks" ?

Now , I really really mean this when I say you're a real piece of work .

Morgaan,

You are being hyper-sensitive. I was just re-reading the posts in your absence and to be frank with you, there is nothing offensive in them with the exception that they completely disagree with your position. There was also debate and discussion not directly related to you.

Besides the reality that you may never get people here to agree with you on this subject, similar to never getting Naseem to budge an inch in her position for about the last 5 years, what is the problem???

In the past I have seen posts directed at you which were completely out of line, which were met by summary deletion. What else do you feel the moderators or community in general owe you here at this site???

You were asked by Marisol to stop posting that lengthy timeline in that form. Either comply or just move on. It really is that simple.

"If you are too blind to see this, I can't help you by responding more."

Your statement directed at me, for which I have no intention of labeling ad hominem, even in light of the fact that it is an incorrect assumption about me, is just that, a statement and a presumption of me by you. I'll get over it.

Please stop with your "I can't believe this site allows these lies about the Balkan wars to remain on this site. It is unconscionable and failure to remove them and all who put them forth constitutes a conspiracy against the truth." That is the way I see you now. And THAT attitude is fascist, in my opinion, a label that you throw around gratuitously at others.

Why don't we just move on already? It's is not like you get attacked in every thread that you comment on here at this site. Enough already. Defend your positions in a productive manner and let us just move on, please!

Robert

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

I think the persisting problem here has been Morgaan's apparent failure to distinguish the issue of posters actually DISAGREEING with her from the issue of posters ATTACKING her. But the unconfortable part for the impartial observers of the many threads she has posted on, that all end up the very SAME way, even with an entirely new and unsuspecting cast of characters, is that Morgaan apparently suffers from a classic case of Freudian projection, in the sense that she accuses so many posters here of "psychofascism" for apparently seeking to silence her views, when the reality is, that they merely DISAGREE with her views. And when confronted with a sufficient amount of disagreement, she resorts to the dishonest, or at least impolite technique, of posting endless cut and paste articles supporting her position, which take everyone literally minutes to scroll through. Which, for a poster, is basically like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer! In short, there is a definite "psychofascist" element to such a heavy-handed posting technique.

And that's not to even mention the even more "psychofascist" technique of threatening to sue unsuspecting posters who have merely entered into what they perhaps naively thought was a good-natured debate. Moreover, valuable posters here have actually been banned from further comment here due to their ill-advised, emotional posts in sheer frustration with these sorts of genuinely "psychofascist" posts.

I am glad to see the site calling this poster out on this. Several posters above seemed to think I was taking Marisol's attempts to lay down guidelines personally.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I have never had a problem with the site's rules. I was simply trying to make a point and even if the site didn't honor the point, I still wouldn't have had a problem with the site. The site is a house that I as a guest am visiting. I never lose site of that fact.

I continue to feel that the major problem here that keeps coming up on so many threads, comes down to one poster's inability to distinguish between disagreement and insult. But then where have we seen that before?

And maybe it's precisely because we have seen the failure to make that distinction so many times before, in the enemy that we are fighting, that sets off so many posters alarm bells, and makes so many posters here react with anger.

About Slobo's guilt for the Bosnian war dead :

An interesting exchange with Dr. Owen - who was a court witness

http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031104ED.htm

Page 28498

SLobo: That would be true if we had had troops in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina after the recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but you know that we didn't have any troops in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I even told you and Mr. Stoltenberg of only one exception,
and that is that I had sent a police platoon to the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, that is at the Strpce railway station where a crime was
committed, where people were taken off the train on the Belgrade-Bar railway line, to guard that station. And this was in the territory of Republika Srpska, but we feared that some paramilitary units may commit another crime, and they guarded that station, because it is only nine kilometres of the Belgrade-Bar railway line that runs through Bosnia-Herzegovina.
And I informed you and Mr. Stoltenberg about this. This was an exception. This was a police platoon that stood guard at the police
station to prevent anyone from stopping the train there. This was a station that trains did not stop at normally.

Dr Owen: I remember the incident, and I don't think it has much bearing on all of this, but it is a fact that the railway line chipped into Bosnia-Herzegovina for a very small portion. I think it was something like nine kilometres, maybe a bit longer than that.

Slobo: That was the exception, that is the presence of this police platoon, and I informed you of that because there were no other Yugoslav forces in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I assume you remember that.

Dr Owen went on to say he thinks there were Serb forces operating in Bosnia but was unable to name any - with the obvious exception of the police force guarding this stretch of line.
About Slobo's defence . He put a good case that he tried again and again to stop the Bosnian war from escalating.

Izetbegovic said no to the Lisbon agreement : both the Serbs and Croats had already agreed. It was Bosnia's last chance for peace .

Any thoughts on the blame game ?

Caroline,

I was one who suggested you not take Marisol's clarification personally. I thought it warranted and I sensed your frustration at what I felt you deemed a double-standard. I hope you understand my point of view with this clarification

My initial attempt on this thread was to try to appeal to Morgaan's sensibility, having seen how these "Kosovo" threads were running for quite some time. While my intentions were pure, for I hold no ill-will towards Morgaan or her specific opinion in this matter, it appears that I have failed at my intended task. Either way, I am glad Marisol and subsequently Robert put an end to this nonsense which was a distraction from the value of the site and detracting from those who work so hard and so thanklessly to make it run. Under the watchful eyes of so many dissenters, I felt it was a neccessary endeavor.

To Morgaan specifically, I am sorry you feel the way you do, especially after genuinely attempting to overcome the obvious obstacle that these threads were posing, not as any slight to you. Referring to me as "blind" and "thick as a stump", to which I could rightfully take offense to, I take none. As a future reminder to you, if we never converse here again on this site or on the internet anywhere else, please heed my advice that your current form of discourse does not help your cause in the least and in reality, hurts yourself the most.

All in all, I am a bit crestfallen at the ultimate outcome, however.

Regards,

awake

Moreover, valuable posters here have actually been banned from further comment here due to their ill-advised, emotional posts in sheer frustration with these sorts of genuinely "psychofascist" posts.

by Caroline

Exactly. And I would like to ask politely JW management (Mr. Spencer or others), to reinstitute use of my nikname on JW. Since now I can use it only on DW, I would appriciate if I could get access on JW again.