Fjordman: Do we want an Islamic Reformation?

Another essay from the great Fjordman.

Here's an article by Dutch writer Margriet de Moor looking at Islam in Europe. Perhaps the most grotesque quote from this essay is that she sees the Netherlands as a large-scale laboratory, and says so with obvious approval. A great example of why Multiculturalism is a massive experiment in social engineering, every bit as radical and dangerous as Communism. Ms. De Moor lives in some kind of alternate reality where "Europe's affluence and free speech" will create an Islamic Reformation. But Muslim immigration constitutes a massive drain on the former, and is slowly, but surely destroying the latter.

Dutch MP Geert Wilders, who lives with constant death threat from Muslims, was recently told by the National Coordinator for Anti-terrorism that he would do better to express his political message in a milder manner. Is that a healthy sign of free speech? Wilders has said provocative things such as that the country faces being swamped by a "tidal wave of Islamization," that if Muslims want to stay in the Netherlands, they should tear out half the Koran and that "If Muhammad lived here today, I would propose he be tarred and feathered as an extremist and driven out of the country."

Wilders claims that a climate of "hate and aggression" has been created in which someone might think that "illegal means are justified to stop me and my people." Left-wing columnists dismiss him as "someone outside of the law, as the leader of a fascist party, that is anti-democratic and similar in some respects to the Nazi's," he said. One should remember that another Dutch politician, Pim Fortuyn, was murdered following similar treatment by the media. Poultry veterinarian J. Plantema was ordered to pay damages of a massive 200,000 euros to animal rights group WakkerDier, after he described them as "a bunch of terrorists" who do not shrink from murder, arson, vandalism and intimidation. Wakker Dier is headed by Sjoerd van de Wouw. At another action group, VMO, he was the right-hand man of Volkert van der Graaf, who assassinated politician Pim Fortuyn in 2002. Currently, Van de Wouw is assistant to the Party for Animals (PvdD), which has two seats in the Lower House. PvdD leader Marianne Thieme has forbidden the laying of poison to deal with a mouse infestation in its parliamentary offices, and stated that they "wish to combat it using traps that keep the mice alive."

A school in Amsterdam has halted lessons on rural life because the Islamic children refused to talk about pigs. Various pupils, 9 or 10 years old, began to demolish the classroom when the pig came up for discussion. A survey recently revealed that some 40 percent of the Dutch consider that they cannot always say what they want, especially when it comes to issues related to the Multicultural society. The Netherlands, which for centuries was a haven for those seeking more freedom of thought, is becoming an increasingly totalitarian society, as a direct result of Muslim immigration. This is the reason why Hans Janssen, Professor of Modern Islamic Ideology at Utrecht University, stated that a peaceful society that wishes to remain existent "will have to find a way to defend itself through non-peaceful means from people who are not peaceful." According to Jansen, Muslim fundamentalists frequently make threats, but the Dutch media remain silent about them.

Margriet de Moor states that "a scholar living in our part of the world is less likely to be subjected to the fate undergone by the Sudanese politician, theologian and writer Mahmud Taha. Taha, who for sound, scholarly reasons proposed recognising only the Koran texts from Mohammed's time in Mecca – and these are peaceful texts without the obligatory Jihad –, was executed in Khartoum prison in 1985 after being accused of having lost his faith."

But she thus points the finger at the problem: The only way you could, even theoretically, create a peaceful, tolerant Islam would be to permanently ignore all teachings, contained in the Koran, the hadith and the sira, originating from the violent Medina period. I doubt whether this is practically possible, and even if it was, it would mean that Muslims quite literally have to get rid of half of the Koran, which again means that Mr. Wilder is correct. Dr. Daniel Pipes is among those who have praised Mahmoud Muhammad Taha as a key to moderate Islam, but Taha presented unconvincing arguments for his case and was anyway killed because his ideas were considered heretical.

As I've demonstrated in my writings, the question of whether Islam is compatible with democracy largely hinges upon your definition of "democracy." If this simply means voting, with no freedom of speech or safeguards for individual rights or minorities then yes, it can, as a vehicle for imposing sharia on society. But such a "pure" democracy isn't necessarily a good system even without Islam, as critics from Plato to Thomas Jefferson have convincingly argued. Likewise, the question of whether or not Islam can be reformed largely hinges upon your definition of "Reformation." I usually say that Islam cannot be reformed, and by "reformed" I thus implicitly understand this as meaning something along the lines of "peaceful, non-sharia based with respect for individual choice and freedom of speech." In other words: "Reform" is vaguely taken to mean less Islam.

However, Robert Spencer and others have argued that there are similarities between Martin Luther and the Christian or Protestant Reformation in 16th century Europe and the reform movement started by Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab in the Arabian peninsula in the 18th century. Wahhab's alliance with regional ruler Muhammad bin Saud and his family later led to the creation of Saudi Arabia. There was also another modern "reform" movement within the Islamic world, the so-called Salafism of 19th century thinkers such as Jamal al-Din al-Afghani and Muhammad Abduh. Whereas the former was an internal reform movement triggered by calls for removing "corruption" from society, the latter was clearly a response to external, Western pressures.

Although Abduh's ideas were continued in a secular direction by individuals such as Egyptian writer Taha Hussein, clearly the most successful strands were those developed into what was later termed "Islamic fundamentalism" in the 20th century. Muhammad Abduh's pupil Rashid Rida inspired Hassan al-Banna when he formed the Muslim Brotherhood. Rida urged Muslims not to imitate infidels, but return to the Golden Age of early Islam, as did Abduh. Rida also recommended reestablishing the Caliphate, and applauded when the Wahhabists conquered Mecca and Medina and established modern Saudi Arabia. The two reform movements thus partly merged in the 20th century, into organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood.

The fact that two initially separate calls for reform, started under different circumstances and for different reasons, produced somewhat similar results is worth contemplating. Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin also called for returning to the Golden Age of early Christianity. Although the Reformation was a turbulent period while it lasted, it did pave the way for more tolerance and religious freedom in Christian Europe in the long run. This was, in my view, at least partly because Christians could return to the example, as contained in the Gospels, of an early age where the founder of their religion and his disciples led a largely peaceful movement separate from the state. Muslims, on the other hand, can find a similar example only in the Mecca period. As long as the writings from the violent Medina period are still in force, a return to the "early, Golden Age" of Islam will mean a return to intolerance and Jihad violence.

Some Western observers are searching for a "Muslim Martin Luther" who is expected to end the resurgent Islamic Jihad. But one could argue that we already have a Muslim Martin Luther: He's called Osama bin Laden, deeply inspired by the teachings of Muslim Brotherhood thinker Sayyid Qutb. If "reform" is taken to mean a return to the historical period of the religious founder, Muhammad, and his followers, it will lead to an inevitable upsurge of Jihadist violence, since that was what Muhammad and his followers were all about. The question of whether Islam is reformable is an important one. But perhaps an even more crucial one is whether an Islamic Reformation would be desirable from a non-Muslim point of view, and the likely answer to that is "no."

Alarm bells in Muslim hearts, by Margriet de Moor

I currently live in one of the most interesting countries in Europe. I am an inhabitant of a remarkable country, one that first of all is tiny and over-populated, that secondly has four big cities – Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Utrecht and The Hague – half of whose populations already consist of people of foreign origins, most of them Muslims, and that thirdly has witnessed two political murders, one of which was committed directly in the name of Allah. I am thus an inhabitant of a country that has all the makings of considerable social, political and religious trouble and yet has managed to stay calm.

If Islam is ever to experience a Reform at all, it will not happen in the witches' cauldron where religion comes from, but in the affluent West. And then it could very well happen that the Martin Luther of this movement will be the voice of a woman. How I miss Ayaan Hirsi Ali! A female Islamic Luther, and a black one to boot, wouldn't it have been wonderful? Or rather, since she isn't a theologian, perhaps a black Voltaire?

There are two reasons why I think that a reform of Islam will take place in the West. The first is the flourishing of Islamic studies. Research into the sources, into the story of Muhammad as a historic figure and the doctrine of Islam is currently taking place independently of Islamic orthodoxy.

But a scholar living in our part of the world is less likely to be subjected to the fate undergone by the Sudanese politician, theologian and writer Mahmud Taha. Taha, who for sound, scholarly reasons proposed recognising only the Koran texts from Mohammed's time in Mecca – and these are peaceful texts without the obligatory Jihad –, was executed in Khartoum prison in 1985 after being accused of having lost his faith.

The second reason for a possible Islamic reform here in the West is the social conditions that Fareed Zakaria has already talked about. Conditions in the Netherlands are the opposite of a dictatorship. This country is probably the freest, most liberal in the world, and one of the most prosperous to boot. I belong to the unrestrained generation, the generation that in 1960s protested passionately against almost all holders of power of that time.

When I'm feeling optimistic I sometimes see the Netherlands, a small laconic country not inclined towards the large-scale or the theatrical, as a kind of laboratory on the edge of Europe. Now and then the mixture of dangerous, easily inflammable substances results in a little explosion, but basically the process of ordinary chemical reactions just continues.

I am thinking of the novel 2084 still to be written. Historical developments often come about very abruptly. The question of whether the teaching of Mohammed can coexist peacefully with that of Jesus, the hero of the Gospels, will probably have been answered by then.

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26 Comments

"...the Sudanese politician, theologian and writer Mahmud Taha. Taha, who for sound, scholarly reasons proposed recognising only the Koran texts from Mohammed's time in Mecca – and these are peaceful texts without the obligatory Jihad –, was executed in Khartoum prison in 1985 after being accused of having lost his faith."....

.....in other words, he was murdered by Muslims because he was not "Muslim enough."...

we see this more and more....Islam is forcing Islam upon the Muslims through the barrel of the gun....without the gun, Islam disappears...

As an heir of the Christian Reformation of the 16th century, I would urge that Muslims dissatisfied with the state of their religion should check out Christianity.

Further note: The problem isn't Scripturalism per se, but which Scripture you read.

With all due respect to Mr. Spencer's Catholic faith, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin did not look back to a "golden age" of Christianity. They understood the New Testament too well to miss the fact that all of the epistles are written to address problems--including, in the Letter to the Galatians, Peter reneging on his own better judgment (so much for papal infallibility). Rather, they struck against the acumulated weight of extra-biblical tradition. And should the violence of 16th and 17th century Europe be trotted out as an argument against the Reformation, please note that this violence was as much the making of the Roman Catholics as it was of the Protestants.

Further, the Protestant Reformation, especially in its Reformed variety (stemming from the Swiss Reformation) was very keenly aware of the dangers of exalting a "great leader". Its awareness that there were a plurality of bishops in NT Philippi and Paul's addressing the Ephesian elders as "bishops" in the same breath led to a new system of church government which involved a voice for the laity. The intense study of the Old Testament by the Reformed theologians also led to an immunity against the foolish idea that "the king can do no wrong". While this recognition was shared with Catholic scholars such as Soto, Miranda, Covarruvias, and others, Roman exaltation of tradition led to the royalist "throne and altar" alliance of the Old Regime throughout Catholic Europe, whereas Reformed countries (Switzerland, Netherlands, the English colonies) proved the seedbed for modern limited government.

Perhaps if the Netherlands would go back to its Reformed roots, it might recover a sense of moral balance and have a chance to recognize the disastrous course on which 20th century socialism set it.

Throughout the history of Islam, "reform" has meant "going back" (that is, becoming stricter, more observant, more rigorous) -- reform has never meant "liberalizing." Any "liberalizing" tendencies are deemed "un-Islamic" and/or "back-sliding." Right now, I think (as many others have noted) we're unfortunately in the midst of a "reform" period of islam (thus the radicals are coming out).

I note that there has been a "conference" in Cairo. It is an alignment of "pacifists" with Islamic terrorists (this conference has been sponsored by the Muslim Brotherhood). Consider this yet another "experiment." I suppose some could laugh as the Hamas and Hezbollah align themselves with pacifist "Jews." now there's a marriage made in heaven, eh?

It will be interesting to see who gets conned by whom...

After spending 15 minutes compiling a post to the outrageous statement by Kepha that the Protestants were as to blame for the violence during the Protestant Reformation as were the Catholics, then to have it lost due to a "validation" failure, I won't again waste my time except to say he is full of #$%#, and should go back to studying his history!

CLL1709,

I've noticed that there is a time-out feature. What happens is that if you spend too long writing a post, when you got to post it -- it'll say you have to "sign in" (or your post appears to be rejected.) There's a simple work-around -- sing in again, then (if you have Windows) use the back arrow, back arrow, back arrow, and you'll get back to your post (it won't be lost), then re-post (and it'll be accepted.)

oops. that should read "when you go to post it" and that's "sign in" not sing in...off day today. Anyway, trick is Not to close the browser, then you lose everything...(the back arrow is your friend.) anyway, I'm finished for today.

"Further, the Protestant Reformation, especially in its Reformed variety (stemming from the Swiss Reformation) was very keenly aware of the dangers of exalting a "great leader"."

and

"Roman exaltation of tradition led to the royalist "throne and altar" alliance of the Old Regime throughout Catholic Europe"

posted by Kepha above.

It was the Swiss Reformation in particular that exalted a "great leader" in Calvin's totalitarian theocracy where Michael Servetus and 58 others were cruelly put to death for disagreeing with Calvin's theology. One of Calvin's associates, Jerome Bolsec, after breaking with Calvin's regime, did manage to escape Geneva and publish a biography of Calvin that showed his greed, financial misconduct, and sexual aberrations.

As for the alliance between throne and altar, it was the "Peace of Augsburg" of 1555, by which the Protestants established themselves as a separate religion through the principle of "cuius regio, eius religio" i.e. the religion of the state is the religion of the people.

CLL1709,

It was after Luther's followers went on rampage burning churches and monasteries, raping nuns, and murdering priests, that the Catholic princes finally responded with force.

CLL1709,

When you time out, you can sign in and then "back space" to your typed comment and post. More safely, cut the typed comment, sign back in and paste it before posting. As a slow typist with thick fingers, I've done this often.

Margriet de Moor's article rather reminds me of those who touted the communist utopia. The idea that "Europe's affluence and free speech" will create an Islamic Reformation is wishful thinking- why should the Islamists reform when in fact, they are given the absolute freedom to practice the most militant versions of the faith in Europe? Isn't it more logical to assume that instead, Islam will grow stronger and require the Infidel to change? In fact, isn't that already happening?

I do agree that perhaps the infusion of Islam into Europe could indeed reignite interest in Christianity- but not necessarily in the warm, fuzzy way imagined by de Moor. Instead, it could be viewed as a way to combat the spread of the Islamic lifestyle.

As for Islamic Reformation- if it is possible (and I'm not sure that it is) it would be more likely to take place in a Western country that requires Muslims to assimilate.

hmmmm....no, no, no, it's not "the backspace" -- that's a key on the keyboard. Need to use the "back arrow" that's (usually) at the top-left of the Internet Explorer window (a little blue arrow) which takes you back a webpage...(use the mouse to click on arrow -- and go back pages.) do not use "back space" key on keyboard.

J.S.

You're Correct. MY GOOF! I meant the "back arrow" on the screen not the back space.

In the design of reinforced concrete beams, two failure mechanisms are analyzed. The first failure mechanism is in the section in compression where concrete pushes against concrete. The second failure mechanism is in the section in tension where steel reinforcement is stretched. The beam is designed so that the tension section fails first because, before a catastrophic failure happens, the steel will lengthen and visible cracks can be seen at the bottom of the structure.

You never want to have the compressed concrete fail first, because when it does the bridge explodes.

Russia was able to gently slide away from a pure democracy because its democratic institutions (steel) are relatively weak. The proverbial ‘cracks’ were a half-dozen dead journalists. Now Russia is debt free with a powerful executive able to exercise national will.

The West’s fascination with democracy will make a peaceful retreat from our one-man, one-vote utopia impossible. We’ll find out how things play out when our credit rating is shot and people find themselves hungry. This will happen in the next twenty years.

The Founding Fathers were brilliant when they set the voting eligibility threshold as lien-free property owners. I wish they would have codified it.

So, here I am again and thank you ALL for the advice on the time out problem, etc. Anything else I write will be on Word and pasted!

In regard to my protestation regarding the violence attributed to Protestants on Catholics, as my family descends from the lone, 16 year old survivor named Abraham LeFevre, who escaped the massacre of his family in Strasburg, France in about 1685 and eventually (12/31/1708) made his way with other Huguenot’s to our shores. It is commonly agreed that the French Huguenots were the most persecuted Protestants. There were at least 8 wars conducted against them by the Catholic princes representing the Catholic Church. So Luther’s followers notwithstanding, from a much earlier time and country, I believe we must recognize, as has the Catholic Church, or at least the Jesuit’s I worked with at the University of Santa Clara, felt that this was one of the biggest blots against the church prior to WWII. Besides the 8 wars, there was the massacre at Vassy, killing hundreds in their church, and then the really big one, in 1572, known as the Massacre on St. Batholomew’s Day ordered by Catherine de Medici (the power behind the French throne) that killed up to 120,000 French Protestants. And so it went back and forth for my ancestors until Abraham’s family was murdered by Catholics:, his mother, father and siblings down to the age of 6. Of course my family history says not a word of how many Catholics they may have murdered, only that they all lived quiet, pious lives of hard work.

So apparently historic truth depends on your point of view. And I don’t even want to discuss the cowardly Huguenot prince Henry of Navarre!

And I’m still considering the subject of this posting by Fjordman. No doubt there are many cases of unintended consequences that do turn out well, but frankly I don’t believe Islam has done any good anywhere, so I doubt any reformation will help it. The Dutchman Geert Wilders is correct in everything he says, and the very fact he is now under threat of death from Muslims proves the case. How could any Muslims be true to his Koran and be a democrat? How can the United Nations adopt a standard of human rights passed by their body of representatives and yet none of the Islamic countries could possible abide by it for it flies in the face of Mohammad’s ravings. (Does that show my bias?) These are obvious things that we all are aware of. And sometimes the most simple is the most profound.

Thanks all for listening.

Reformation of Islam is like asking criminal gangs to reform - (which would end only by forming into better and more organized and more efficient crime enterprises).
Forget the "religion" of those who submit.
Reform and refine our own -Western- (and non-muslim) societies. Start by undoing the nearly century long marxist-socialist social engineering and experimentation - which have promoted and spread the ideals of self denigration and self destruction to the benefit only of totalitarian ideologies and power seekers (e.g. islam, fascism, communism, etc.).
Even a minimal reform of the "religion of submission" would lead to logical conclusion -by any sane peoples- that it should cease to exist - in any form of a civilized world. Which is exactly the reason the "leaders" of the "religion of submission" will stop at nothing in order to deny any degree of self-examination.

The anti-reformers are willing to use inhuman violence (see Daniel Pearl, etc.) to make their bloodthirsty point and press their tyrannical aims.

The peaceful reformers are not willing to be as brutal.

Which means the violant traditionalists will always win -unless confronted with greater force. And necessary counter-violence.

You will not get "successful" militant murderers and theocratic terrorists to desist via peaceful means.

That is the fallacy of this idea of an Islamic Reformation through any means but destroying the homicidal lunatics. And forcibly voiding the terrorist parts of the Koran.

Giving the maniacs more freedom (The Netherlands' liberality) will only unleash their greater arrogance and depredations.

The Nazis did not "reform" toward a nicer version as they gained greater power.

Neither will Koranically-violent Islam.

Until the delusional characters like Mevr. Moor [intersting name] read the playbook of the pedophile warlord, their "opinions" are simpering silliness and suicidal stupidity.

provoslavini:

Calvin the exalted "great leader"? hmmph. He couldn't get his desire for weekly communion past the city council of Geneva, and got run out of town on occasion. pretty poor excuse if he really was the grand ecclesiastical dictator of Roman Catholic, High Anglican, and Unitarian demnology.

CLL--you learn to read.

Excuse me for taking up your time, Robert. CLL and provoslavini can see me off this forum.

Everyone WANTS to see the violence endemic to Islam excised permanently and, by some definitions, that would amount to a "Reformation." But is a "reformation" really what it would take to defang Islam?

I certainly want to see Islam defanged (at the very least, in fact I would lose no sleep at all if this 'faith' were extirpated tomorrow)--is there anyone here at JW who would NOT want to see Islam made into a benign, non-homicidal ideology? No. (But keep dreaming).

In actuality, removing the inherent violence from Islam amounts to an ideological TRANSFORMATION and NOT a "reformation" as that undergone by Christianity a few centuries ago. Achieving a non-violent Islam could well prove to be an impossibility, however much that would be desired by a world sick of Islam's endless violence and political shenanigans.

Islam's inherent violence originates not from misinterpretation of the Kuran's texts, but from a correct understanding and direct application of them. Since Muslims hold the Kuran to be a direct pipeline from the Creator, most if not all Islamic authorities will be 100% opposed to any types of changes made in this 'faith'. They will fight tooth and claw to stop anything remotely resembling a "reformation" and in fact are doing just that as I write this.

Although there is something to the notion that the Kuran's first half is much less malignant than the second half, there is another way of looking at this. Muhammad may well have been applying "bait and switch" marketing of Islamic ideology. He may have been bringing in suckers to Islam through deceptive talk of a wonderful ideology, and later disposed of it after which his pigeons were unable to escape. he had them under the penalty of death if they left. (Sort of like credit card marketing tactics that bring consumers in on 0% interest per card and later start charging 27% interest per card).

There is also another problem with attempts to defang Islam-- as they mainly originate from the kaffir non-Muslim. The Kuran texts promote a 'pure' and extremely narrow view of human life and anything not falling within Islam's extremely narrow parameters is held as a "crime against God" and targeted for destruction.

non-Muslims not only lack any influence in Islam, they are all singled out for destruction (including our beloved "Fjordman"). No non-Muslim is likely to wield sufficient influence within Islam to effect any real changes in it. All calls for changes in Islam are likely to be connected to the kaffir even when not and suppressed by the political infrastructire of Islamia.

I reject the notion that Islam is capable of a "reformation" for another reason: Christianity at the time of the "Reformation" was run by a Roman Catholic Church that failed to live up to the ethical standards set up by its founder, Jesus Christ as well as even the ten commandments of the Old testament (the Roman catholic Church would execute Christians at the seeming drop of a hat, even performing beheadings, despite the Old Testament teaching "Thou Shalt Not Kill" of the 10 Commandments and the sin of 'mayhem' listed in the 7 deadly sins).

The leaders of the reformation understood that Christianity was not being run in accordance with its founding principles and eventuially managed to effect the changes necessary in Christian leadership to force Christianity in line with the teachings taught by Christ. But as it turns out, Islam IS run in accordance with its founding principles. Al-lah states in the Kuran that he "has been made victorious through terror."

Violence, terrorism, bloodshed, and many other things Christians find repulsive are in fact essential to Islamic doctrine. These things are non-negotiable, if one is applying the words and spirit of the Kuran.

What many non-Muslims find so hard to accept is that the concepts of "good" and "bad" are not universally shared among humanity. This they will need to get over. I truly doubt Islam is capable of "reformation" or "transformation." (Especially as it originates from the human sacrifice sects that were once prevalent throughout the Middle East and has no relationship to Judeo-Christianism. The Middle East has never really been anything but a killing ground; I certainly don't expect any changes as this is one region in which nothing ever really changes anyway).

Provoslavni,

Actually, I was going to say, "oops, my goof.." The back space key can be used to go back (in terms of webpages), but only so long as the cursor is not in any text box. So, using the Back space key (on the keyboard) works (if you remember to click outside any text box)...which I would tend to forget (if, on the other hand, you use the "back arrow", it doesn't matter where the cursor is -- you can have the cursor inside the text box, and if you hit the back arrow, you go back a webpage.) (Also, another note, on another handy little feature -- if you have a Google toolbar, there's a spell checker -- just click on that "ABC Check" and the entire text box turns blue and any misspelled words are written in red...you can quickly scroll through and correct errors (and you just click in the blue box again and choose "stop spell checker"). I find it's a great feature (although sometimes I don't use the checker, and sometimes the Google Spell Checker server is "not available" -- too busy. I think there's also an "auto fix" which I haven't tried out.)

Mergriet de Moor:

"How I miss Ayaan Hirsi Ali! A female Islamic Luther, and a black one to boot, wouldn't it have been wonderful?"

"But a scholar living in our part of the world is less likely to be subjected to the fate undergone by the Sudanese politician, theologian and writer Mahmud Taha."

Then could this deluded, PC-addled moonbat please explain why, in the "freest, most liberal country in the world" Ayaan Hirsi Ali had to live under 24-hour armed guard? Do these people even read what they've written? Mzz. de Moor seems more excited by the fact that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is female and black, and therefore uber-PC, than by anything else.

Perhaps if Mzz de Moor and her liberal-left chums had done more to speak out in support of her, then the redoubtable Ms Ali would not have needed to flee the "laboratory" in the first place?

Anyone else find it odd that this lady would refer to her own country has a laboratory?

It's almost like she doesn't consider herself part of it, but instead just someone watching from a distance, or perhaps that scientist herself.

How can anyone expect their leaders to protect their country when those leaders believe it's nothing more then a laboratory for an experiment?

Citizens of the world should never be elected to any office.

"Anyone else find it odd that this lady would refer to her own country has a laboratory?"

Yes, I find it disturbing. What does she think Muslims are? lab rats? her personal "pets" she monitors and observes? (Frankly, I often find this underlying tone of racism in the European press -- just read some of what comes out of, say, France..I don't think they hear it -- but I hear it...it's demeaning, condescending, paternalistic, as if they are not willing to treat "their colonized captives" (typically confined to ghettos) as fully "human"...more like "children" in need of looking after. (Also, the constant references to H. Ali's skin color -- ouch.)

I agree that this post-modern woman is actually a paternalistic racist snob, and the complacent and bizarre ravings of Margriet de Moor and all persons like her display a shocking ignorance of history and reality.

Her argument is actually a feat of twisted logic, begging the question in overlapping assertions like tiles on a roof:

First, the assertion is made that the place where religion originates is a "witches' cauldron" and therefore Islam cannot reform there. This further begs the question that Islam is capable of reform by claiming it can only happen in the West, which further begs the question that any reform in Islam would be something that the world should want to see. But here I think Fjordman gets slightly off in his analysis of her position -- I happen to agree with him that the Islamic reformation is already underway -- and it's called things like "Hamas", "Islamic Jihad", "Jamaat Islamiya", "al Qaida", "Hezbollah", or Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran for short. But Margriet de Moor implicitly concludes that Islam's reformation will result in "Islamic researchers" pursuading the mass of global Muslims that secularism is the way. She doesn't believe in the Christian Reformation as anything but an ultimate step towards jettisoning religion altogether. She arrogantly seems to assume that anyone who actually studies religion can only conclude as she does that one religion is not only identical to another, but that all religions are equally bad (coming as they do from a "witches' cauldron" after all), and that the only trajectory "Islamic researches" in the affluent West will arrive will be a Marxist radical secularism similar to her own.

In Hollywood, we call what she must be smoking "some serious chronic".

In order to function well within the West -- we Westerners need laws -- money -- property -- freedom and rights -- technology -- trade and commerce... and peaceful cooexistence. These are the things that make the West flourish.

In order to function well within Islam -- they need sharia laws as handed to them by Allah and only through their "prophet" -- they need hatred and terror -- they need war booty and tribute -- they need Mosques and vile Imams -- they need baby production -- they need strife and lands to conquer -- and they need lots and lots of victims to steal from, prey on, and vent their rage upon. These are the things that make Islam flourish.


Here are some questions for Margriet de Moor:

How does she explain why there are more and more Imams in more and more Mosques in the affluent West preaching more and more hatred to more and more seething Muslims every year, and just about ZERO "reformers?" of the species she dreams about?

When is this magical turn around going to happen within Islam? When are the Muslims going to stop trying to exploit our freedoms and tolerance and generosity to subvert those freedoms, tolerance and generosity and replace our system of secular human rights and conscience with their heinous and vicious "religion"?

When are the Muslims actually going to stop subverting, and begin to utilize the freedoms which we fought and died for and have generously shared with them in order to conduct genuine scholarly "Islamic Research" rather than conducting Islamic Da'wa on campuses?

When are they going to stop exploiting their privileged positions in the West to intimidate, extort concessions, plot violence and jihad, and begin expressing appreciation and devotion to the system which has been so generous with them?

Why are Muslims becoming more militant year after year, more threatening, more blood-thirsty, more bold in their supremacist pronouncements, and urging more and more Islam in our domains the more they are appeased, pampered, and tolerated by us?

Why is it the more we do for Muslims, the more they hate and despise us, the more likely they are to betray us?

In the end, post-modern 'intellectuals' such as Margriet de Moor always suggest it's somehow our fault - that we haven't yet done enough for the Muslims to make them feel comfortable, havent' done enough for them to let their hair down, to relax and get on with showing how wonderful Islam really is.

Let's take stock:

So far the affluent liberal West has permitted millions upon millions of Muslims to immigrate and practice their religion freely on our soil -- a kindness which has NEVER been reciprocated by any Muslim nation on earth. They've been in the "affluent West" in increasingly huge numbers for nearly 4 decades -- and they've produced about four entire Muslims who seem to be actually interested in "reforming" Islam in a manner which Margriet de Moor or I might find satisfactory.

During that same time, millions upon millions of Muslims have amply revealed they have absolutely no intention whatsoever to see their "religion" reformed, but demand more concession from us, more special rights and privileges and more special protections. They demand more from us the more we give. They hate us in direct proportion, it would seem, to our sacrifice on their behalf and our generosity towards them.

Something is clearly not working according to the social engineering model this woman espouses. Her slaver and drippings should be collected in a jar and buried deep within the bowels of the earth and forgotten.

Pythagoras, the Reformation wasn't about ethical lapses by the papacy. It as over whether justifying grace is infused (Roman Catholic) or imputed (Protestant). Also involved was whether tradition could be allowed to "supplement" Scripture as an authority for Christians, or whether such supplementation in fact obscured Scripture.

jsla wrote:

"In order to function well within the West -- we Westerners need laws -- money -- property -- freedom and rights -- technology -- trade and commerce... and peaceful cooexistence. These are the things that make the West flourish."

Agree. Another aspect (which Hugh has mentioned on a number of occasions) is that in the West we have a burning, raging curiosity -- we're never satisfied, we want to know more. In the Arab/Muslim world, this is not the case. They lack curiosity -- in part this may be due to their belief in fatalism (the religion of Islam is notoriously fatalistic -- "Allah will provide." It's stifling and stultifying.) You can see this also in our universities (not all Muslims, but many toe a political line -- they don't investigate, they don't query, they don't critique -- they follow or adopt a given PC line - if such attitudes are ever adopted at major Western universities, we can kiss technological development/advancement good-bye.

Worse is this pairing of western universities with universities in the Muslim world. i do not like this -- but, I'm powerless to stop it.

J.S. :

You are NOT (necessarily) powerless to stop Islamic infiltration into the western world's university system. There is no good reason why legislation can't be enacted to 1-)prohibit universities from receiving monies from states that are considered enemies (such as Iran) or 2-)prohibit universities from forming partnerships with institutions of known enemy states. Most countries do have 'trading with the enemy' laws that may be dusty but could be reinvigorated if given a push.

Write your representatives in government and talk to them about this issue and see what you can get started.







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