They're replacing them with images of the Virgin Mary, which is a half-measure: Muslims disapprove of images in general, but they respect Mary. Still, Milan Muslim leader Abdelhamid Shaari says that "a white wall would have been even better."
"Milan hospital replaces crucifix with Mary to please Muslims," from Deutsche Presse Agentur, with thanks to Morgaan Sinclair:
Milan - Milan's leading obstetric hospital was replacing its crucifixes with images of the Virgin Mary to avoid offending a growing number of Muslim patients, reports said Wednesday.'Our wards have become multiethnic. We want to respect all religions and avoid any form of discrimination. That is why we have decided to replace the crucifix with the image of the Madonna, which is also appreciated by Muslim women,' daily La Repubblica quoted Mangiagalli's medical director, Basilio Tiso, as saying Wednesday.
Some 7,000 women give birth at the Mangiagalli each year. Of these, about 30 per cent are foreign immigrants, many of whom are not Catholic.
The head of Milan's Viale Jenner Islamic centre, Abdelhamid Shaari, welcomed the move, saying Mary was a figure that was also revered by Muslims.
'This is certainly a sign of respect for our religion that we greatly appreciate. But a white wall would have been even better. Italy is a secular state and children are angels in any religion,' Shaari told La Repubblica....
soon, the Pope will grow a beard and wear a tie-less leisure suit and will address the masses in the square with a cry of "alllaaahh akkkbarrr."
Pathetic. Dhimmitude at its best.
Fallaci mentions this kind of incident in her last book.I almost didn't believe it then, but I do now.
Bunch of appeasing cowards.
The Pope is ok with it all - he got his $50million from the Saudis.
R_not & exsgtbrown,
The pope had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with this. Nor did the Catholic Church have any say in the matter.
The Mangiagalli is a state hospital owned and controlled by the Italian government. Because of the Catholic faith of the Italian people, the Italian government reluctantly agreed in the anti-clerical government in the 1920s agreed to "allow" crucifixes to remain in public hospitals and classrooms. Now the Muslims and their leftist allies are pushing to remove them. The new leftist government in Italy is as anti-Catholic as the Zapata regime in Spain, so the Muslims know that these Euro-governments will help them in their drive against the church.
Oops, should read:
the Italian government reluctantly agreed to reign in the anti-clerical forces in the 1920s and "allow" crucifixes to remain...
White walls? Yes, the color of surrender.
How about black walls? The color of Islam.
We must NOT kowtow to ethnic immigrants...If Muslims don't like the western culture they can lucking feave! There's the door!
Since when is looking at something a form of discrimination against the looker? I just cannot believe how ridiculous this has gotten.
Italy has a whole bunch of Catholic symbols. This is akin to requiring St. Paul's cathedral to drape itself in cloth because some people might be offended in looking at it. The entire notions of discrimination, harrassment and offense have been completely twisted and hijacked by anyone who may get his/her feelings hurt.
When will we regard our culture as equal in value with others? Don't we understand that variety is what makes the world interesting? If muslims wish to feel at home in a country, they can stay or go to a islamic state. Please don't come to the west and expect that we will accomodate your every desire.
When I go to France, they don't stop speaking French just because it makes me uncomfortable. Incroyable, cette état d'affaires!
+ sign is next.
Another example of the dangerous perversion of multiculturalism.
The Pope has received $50million from the Saudis and that was to persuade him to let them occupy a building and convert it to a mosque in Rome. A little (un)known fact that when Saudis give money - they expect a return on their investment. And that return is to appease muslims.
And the Pope has been doing that way before he got his little payoff. And him, and his predecessors, have bashed Israelis and appeased muslims for quite some time.
As for this change in Milan - notice the deafening silence from the Pope. while the muslims continue to make inroads into the daily life of Europeans the Pope hides, so piously, behind his little, or should I say big, building and prays and prays - and is sooooo holy.
I am a Catholic and am disgusted with the active appeasement of the muslims by our men in Rome, and also Cardinals and Bishops around this globe,while fellow Christians, and any non-muslim, are slaughtered around this world.
'...children are angels in any religion,' Shaari told La Repubblica....
unless they are the non-innocent ones that are able to be killed in jihad....as per the JW article today
They came for the crucifixes, but since I wasn't Catholic, I said nothing.
Then they came for the plain crosses, but, since I wasn't a Christian, I said nothing.
Then they came for the Buddhas, Kwanyins, Bahu Balis, Ganeshas, Krishnas, Shivas, Vishnus, but, because I was neither Buddhist, Taoist, Jain or Hindu, I said nothing.
Then they came for respresentational art, from Praxiteles to Rodin, but, because I wasn't an artist, I said nothing.
Then they came fore all imagery of women in advertizing.
And I realized, finally, they had gone too far, but by then it was too late.
Because, by ceding them more and more power all along, they were finally unstoppable.
Iconoclasts are always aiming for the Mohammad/Savonarola extreme.
Give them a crucifix, and they'll take your Civilization.
I, too, am disgusted, R_not, with the way my fellow Catholic clergy ignore suffering Christians throughout the world and spend their time either in retreat or in 'dialog' with Muslims. As for the hospital in Milan, the pictures of the Madonna will not be acceptable either over time. The walls will need to be painted Islamic green...Muslim newborns will have to be in separate nurseries from non-Muslim infidel babies, no male doctors or nurses for Muslim mothers..and foot washes, prayer rugs and separate prayer rooms provided for visiting Muslim fathers. Finally, there will be the demand that non-Muslim expectant mothers give birth at home...and leave the hospital, which that that time will have become part of dar el Islam, for Muslims only....That's the way the game is played.
"The Pope has received $50million from the Saudis ..."
Does anyone have a source for this information.
"Since when is looking at something a form of discrimination against the looker"
I know what you're attempting to say but when I see someone wearing islamic clothes I feel the same sense of foreboding that the smarter jews may have felt in 1920s Berlin when seeing the first nazis wearing their swastikas.
Yes I feel discriminated against. That's why I occasionaly get my mobile phone to play the Marseillaise as I walk past.
Read 'Princes of Darkness'. That fact is in there somewhere. And a lot of other facts that will sicken you. Our Universities and many other business and politicians will sicken you too. Bush isn't perfect, but he didn't appease the Saudis as much as his dad still does. He went against he Saudis by going after Hussein. And for that I support him to this day. He isn't perfect but he at least isn't another Clinton helping the radicals slaughter Christians as Clinton, Albright, and General Wesley Clark did in Eastern Europe.
I have never wavered on the war in Iraq - and that is probably against many on this board too. We are in a good strategic position over there too. We surround Iran - with us in Iraq and Afghanistan and our ships in the water. And we face Saudi crapping Arabia.
This website has 'saudi funded a mosque in Rome' but doesn't give the dollar amount. The book does.
http://www.archives2005.ghazali.net/html/pope_benedic_reaches.html
You can search for yourself if you don't want to read the book. I would read the book. It isn't one of the more exciting books I have read, but I had to read all of it to make sure I got a good idea what/who Saudi Arabians have bribed.
Personally, I find the Iraqis in Baghdad a disgusting lot but you might find that there are others in other areas not as disgusting a lot - such as in the Kurdish area and also some outlying areas. But, I think we fight the Baathists, along with Iranians, Syrians, Al Qaeda and who knows who else (most are Saudi funded, excpet for the shiites) still.
I have another website that mentions the dollar amount but still skirts the fact it went to the Pope.
I have another website that mentions the dollar amount but still skirts the fact it went to the Pope.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/taste/?id=110003943
How will we defend ourselves from vampires now? Or Muslims?
R_not,
You are very wrong. The Saudis spent this money to build a mosque very near the Vatican as a conscious affront to Christianity. The money went to purchase land, pay contactors etc. The Mosque is in Italy NOT in the Vatican. The approval came from the Italian State and the municipality of Rome. The Pope has no authority over these.
Sorry but facts are facts. The Vatican is a separate country from Italy. Not one penny of the Saudi money went to the pope or to Church.
Thanks R_Not. Here is a link about the book you mentioned. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19761
Nothing about the pope there but as a fellow catholic I am very angry about the continual third worldism of the catholic church. The ignoring or 'understanding'of Islamic evil is never far being.
I spent a few days in Jerusalem this year in a Catholic hostel on the Via Dolorosa. The assumption of islamic innocence was in every pore of these very well meaning hostel keepers.
And having to speak to the visiting lefty priests and musicans heading for the ramallah orchestra every day in the dining room was too much even for a tolerant soul like myself.
I somehow think this pope may be different. But if he is, this has to filter right down the heirarchy.
So I remain a catholic but with caveats.
I will add that a local church did a muslim/catholic presentation evening last year. A group of five of us handed out leaflets about Islam as the people were going in. Many of the parishoners were grateful. The priest of course ... was not.
Here's the info from the horse's mouth, so to speak:
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197805/a.mosque.for.rome.htm
which states clearly "The City Council of Rome provided a site, a seven-and-a-half acre wooded tract at the foot of Monte Antenne."
It was the secularist leftwing Rome City Council that facilitated this outrage, not the Vatican which is a separate country.
see also:
http://archnet.org/library/sites/one-site.tcl?site_id=1074
http://guardduty.wordpress.com/2007/01/18/theme-islam-and-catholic-italy/
can someone remove the mosque to please the Christians?...
i can see a ban on all religions soon.
(isn't this the sign of the end of the world in the bible?)
I think we may all be missing the point here.
What the dhimmis are demonstrating is that they respond best to intimidation.
Reasoning with them doesn't work.
9 times out of 10 there's no sense in talking to people who make decisions like this. You just get double-talk.
The practical question here is -- what scares a dhimmi more than a mohammedan does?
"I am a Catholic and am disgusted with the active appeasement of the muslims by our men in Rome, and also Cardinals and Bishops around this globe,while fellow Christians, and any non-muslim, are slaughtered around this world"
Posted by: R_not
On this much I agree with you, R Not, but you should have left it at that. Your comments crossed the line into slander, not because the man you accuse of accepting a bribe is the Pope, but because he did no such thing.
You should have thought the facts through before you blurted out that nonsense. So the Saudis payed 50 million dollars to build a mosque in Rome. By what logic or what impulse of thought would you jump to the conclusion that this had anything to do with the Pope? The reality cited by other commenters that the Pope is not the civil ruler of Rome and has no say in who builds what there should not have needed to be pointed to you. If your resentment of the Church is so wound up that you reflexively blame Church authorities for the decisions of the Italian civil authorities, as you've done here, you've come unhinged with it. Take a valium (figuratively speaking of course) and relax.
The Church has definitely been corrupted by a slime of Islamophile policy but I point out two things worthy of your consideration. First of all, the current problem in the Church is the result of the misapplication of a fundamental Christian attitude - that of welcoming the stranger - which one would expect but which has been conflated by the overly optimistic spirit of the 1960's and the liberalizing influence of that era, which even entered the Second Vatican Council and which is now working its way through the hierarchy, most of whom, Benedict included, received their theological and spiritual formation in those times. The idiotic rantings of Islamophile appeasement monkeys like Cardinal Martino and others who could be named is the hangover from those times that is now working its way through the system but also now being shaken off.
Secondly, Cardinal Ratzinger has always personally been antagonistic toward that ideology and is now, as Pope, working hard at changing this orientation but you can expect that it will take some time for his effots to bear fruit. In the meantime, as a Catholic you are bound to the law of charity, so if you're going to vent your rage at the Church (or anyone else) at least aim your blows at the right people.
P.S. If you had spoken out against the last Pope, John Paul II, for policies of spineless appeasement of Muslims I would not have complained or taken issue with you, but seeing the differences between Benedict and his predecessors is not rocket science. You messed up bigtime on that one.
More to the point:
This is an apalling decision that shouldn't go unanswered.
JoeBlough, you ask a very interesting question.
Maybe its time non-Muslims started organizing the kind of noisy, obnoxious demonstrations that Muslims have in response to their "Poperage", their trumped up "offence" at the Mohammed cartoons and all the rest of their snivelling, whining bullshit. These could be directed against the embassies, parliaments and municipal offices of dhimmi European nations, and even on the steps of dhimmi Churches.
There they take down the crosses here we construct foot baths. Go figure.
If it is a state hospital, and not a Catholic hospital, then I think there should be no religious symbols whatsoever. Separate church and state and leave it at that.
However, it does bother me that anyone would have the nerve to complain against crucifixes. It is Italy, after all, and that is part of the culture.
It's not like the non-Catholic patients are being hit over the head with them.
muslims are terrified of other religions....
How long until the Red Cross symbol is done away with to avoid offending Muslims?
how many centuries have Jews given birth there?
they still hate the Jews more than they hate the muslims
How long until the Red Cross symbol is done away with to avoid offending Muslims?
Posted by: staff_of_magius
----
Already! In Muslim countries the Red Cross was replace by the Red Crescent (notice it's not the "Red Moon"). The late Shah of Iran in his drive to weaken Islam replaced the Red Crescent with the "Red Lion and Sun" but that is now defunct. Hindus and Buddhists are allowed their own red symbols but are not "offended" by the red cross. Even the the atheistic communist countries didn't object to Red Cross.
However, because the Red Crescent societies are part of the International Red Cross, this organization has refused to allow a Red Magen David forcing the Israelis to use a meaningless Red Diamond symbol. It would be a small act of anti-dhimmitude if we could convince the American Red Cross to recognize the Red Magen David in the US and for it to be used on the ambulances of Jewish hospitals.
Hindus and Buddhists are allowed their own red symbols but are not "offended" by the red cross. Even the the atheistic communist countries didn't object to Red Cross."
....generally speaking these are non Muslim entities and generally they are part of the 21st century....
"Some 7,000 women give birth at the Mangiagalli each year. Of these, about 30 per cent are foreign immigrants, many of whom are not Catholic."
So the 30 % dictate to the other 70%.
...children are angels in any religion...
Yep, especially those little angels learning jihad every day in Palestine.
It sickens me when moslems claim to revere Jesus and Mary. Is nothing sacred ?
It looks like somewhere in Canada it got even worse.
http://canada-news.blogspot.com/2007/05/art-falls-victim-to-pc-leaders.html
Shaari: "Italy is a secular state and children are angels in any religion,"
Of course! Since all children are born Muslim, they are all angels! They just happen to get corrupted by Christianity, Judaism, Confucism, Secularism, etc.
In India, Red Cross is what is operational - you don't have a Red Om or a Red Swastika for Hindus. I don't know that it's any different in Nepal. So what symbol are Buddhists allowed? Is it implemented in any existing Buddhist country - Sri Lanka, Thailand, Mongolia, Cambodia or Bhutan?
In fact, a few months ago, here on DW itself, there was that story about a Red 'diamond/square/whatever' that would be assigned to Israel and Kazakhstan. In Israel's case, they could have pressed for a Red Magen David, but didn't. Kazakhstan was even wierder - they didn't want to prefer either Russian Christianity or Kazakh Islam, so they went with this one.
I also don't recall any Muslim tradition of having hospitals. Maybe the Milan hospital should shut down, and a mosque built in its place. Sick people can then go there to either get cured by Allah, or not, if that's what Allah prefers.
Wow, Provoslavni, thanks for the info. I was going to mention a potential "Red Crescent" in sarcasm, but I had no idea there actually already was such a thing. Apparently there's nothing that doesn't offend these people in some way.
What kind of cringing self loathing insanity is gripping the West?
Can you imagine as a Westerner immigrating to ANY Musilm nation on earth and then setting about expressing your rage, disgust, and fury towards reflections of their Islamic belief in any form or expression wherever you encounter them?
Now imagine immigrating to a Muslim nation where you have no intention of working, but will exploit the generous welfare system which that Muslim nation provides solely to concentrate on procreating more little Westerners with no intention of integrating, intent on destroying the Muslim nation and replacing it with Western traditions and man made laws, and attending Church on Sunday (stay with me -- I know this isn't an option in any Muslim nation for several obvious reasons but I'm trying to make a point here...) and then imagine going into one of their hospitals or clinics where healthcare is provided to you, a Western "infidel", by hardworking Muslim taxpayers, and then imagine ranting and raving when you see signs and expressions of Islam...
What would the outcome be?
You and eveny non-Muslim they could get their hands on would be massacred in an instant.
I'm not advocating treating Muslims in our nations the way Muslims would treat any of us in theirs if the tables were perfectly symmetrically turned in this story -- but it's unthinkable to me that any society would be expected to cringe and debase itself when shown such intolerant and disrespectful behavior by immigrants.
The idea that our response to the barbarity of barbarians is to attempt to appease them, and make THEM feel comfortable for their barbarity is nothing short of insane.
INSANE.
A Muslim who enters a hospital displaying a Christian symbol, who then disrespects that hospital and its staff in such a manner should be kicked out the door on his ass and told to go to the local Mosque for medical treatment.
I find the response of the hospital to be more repugnant than the heinous bellyaching of the Muslims who visit them.
News concerning Denmark:
Anti-Jihad organization
Ummah News Links
jsla
Maybe some Westerners could try that in Saudi Arabia, or some of the Gulf states, which do provide welfare to their citizens. Only problem - they expect foreigners to work, and their own local Arabs to either goof off - all native Kuwaitis are at the beach - or spend all time at the mosque.
jsla
You're right. That's because muslims are defending their values while westerners don't. But why? Because of slave's mentality or what? Or maybe muslims are just angrier? (and thus stronger to some extend)
Provoslavni, I stand corrected and if I mislead anyone I apologize.
I could not find what I thought I read. I does say everywhere they financed the mosque and it just mentions the Pope but not in a way that says he accepted any money from the Saudis.
But, that befuddles me even more as to why the Pope appeases those who is slaughtering Christians, jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. to this very day.
The crosses on hospital walls, although religious symbols, are a part of Italian culture and have been for thousands of years. There are crucifixes, statues of saints and small shrines in public squares and along roadways which I guess will also have to come down if you follow their logic. They will have to remove or cover up ancient Roman temples and statues also, since these also offend Moslems (Afghanistan Buddhas, the desire of radicals in Egypt to destroy Pyramids and other sites, etc.). The Italians are not only removing so-called religious symbols, but things like paintings of the Battle of LePanto from a public building.
It looks like somewhere in Canada it got even worse.
http://canada-news.blogspot.com/2007/05/art-falls-victim-to-pc-leaders.html
Posted by vn
It's not right that these paintings are being removed either, but at least it's the aboriginal people of Canada who are complaining - they have more right to complain than any moslem will EVER have.
It is horrifying to contemplate the great religious works of art in European museums - the Pieta, countless paintings of the Virgin and Child, and the saints, as well as other beautiful paintings of nudes - that will be destroyed in Europe once moslems are in charge.
As I have said before it's obvious who the enemy is. With middle-eastern muslims attacking America and plotting more attacks and Albanian muslims planning an attack on Ft. Dix and American born muslims joining al-quada....... MUSLIMS
The new leftist government in Italy is as anti-Catholic as the Zapata regime in Spain, so the Muslims know that these Euro-governments will help them in their drive against the church.
Posted by: Provoslavni
Yep. And here we were ragging mostly on the french and sometimes the Germans for their dhimmitude.
At least the French people made some NOISE at the ballot box and I hope they follow up nicely in the June Parliamentary elections to give Mr. Sarko the political muscle he needs.
Looks like the Italians are vying for top spot as dhimmi laughing stock in Europe. Spain is a close second.
The tide has begun to turn in Europe. Let's hope that we shall flush all these leftist dhimmi goofballs out of office sooner rather than later!
'...children are angels in any religion,' Shaari told La Repubblica....
unless they are the non-innocent ones that are able to be killed in jihad....as per the JW article today
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical
Are the children calling in to the Jihad mickey Mouse show angels too?
The ones whose parents parade them around wearing suicide belts and toy guns?
Luck Fislam!
I know what you're attempting to say but when I see someone wearing islamic clothes I feel the same sense of foreboding that the smarter jews may have felt in 1920s Berlin when seeing the first nazis wearing their swastikas.
[..]
Posted by: Sebastien
That's exactly how I feel, Sebastien. And I am not holding myself up to be smarter than anyone else.
It is in fact amazing that there are so few people who make that equation as you have.
Same for the moslem skullcaps by the way.
'Our wards have become multiethnic. We want to respect all religions and avoid any form of discrimination. That is why we have decided to replace the crucifix with the image of the Madonna, which is also appreciated by Muslim women,' daily La Repubblica quoted Mangiagalli's medical director, Basilio Tiso, as saying Wednesday.'
Is that what they are doing in the SOWdi Barbarian hospitals?
tu quoque..
Meanwhile, in New York, muslim prison guards can now wear their stupid hats:
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN0930309020070509
Why are non-muslims falling all over themselves to be the most non-offensive to muslims?
can someone remove the mosque to please the Christians?...
Posted by: exsgtbrown
That's the BEST idea I ever heard!
I have another good one: Remove all moslems from all Western Lands to please most of us Westerners.
All except the lefties and the dhimmies.
R_not,
Apology accepted. It is clear that you meant no slander. I suspect that all of us often post from memory and, being human, our memories can mix facts. Your main point was right on target. Saudi money is not only spreading jihad but corrupting the West in horrible ways.
--------------------------
Infidel Pride,
The attempt for a Red Swastika was by Sri Lanka in 1957 and later again by India when Desai was PM. Neither attempt went anywhere perhaps because Buddhist countries like Thailand, Cambodia and Burma expressed no problems with the Red Cross.
The Red Diamond symbol was also called the Red Lozenge (YUCK!!!!) but is now officially known as the Red Crystal. Whatever it is labelled, it is still culturally meaningless.
Why are non-muslims falling all over themselves to be the most non-offensive to muslims?
Posted by: Greek Fire
THAT is the $64,000 question! We need an army of cultural phsychologists to figure that one out. It is indeed crucial that we figure this out if we are to turn this around.
Like I often say, we must win OUR OWN hearts and minds. I don't care what THEY think. If we are united there is no moslem who can cause us harm.
Here in Australia, in public hospitals, for a very long time, a group called the Gideons have placed copies of the Bible in patients' bedside cupboards - the idea being to provide spiritual comfort if people wanted it. I understand that not so long ago they were told they couldn't do it anymore because it would cause offence. It occurs to me to wonder, now, whether Muslims had complained.
How offensive is a book? In a drawer? Unopened - nobody was being FORCED to read it, it was just there, take it or leave it.
I remember thinking, when I heard this, that if people of other faiths or none were offended, they could always have simply chipped in and provided a copy of THEIR chosen text to go in the drawer next to the Bible.
I must ask my mother-in-law (who told me about the ban originally) whether she has heard any more on the subject.
But, that befuddles me even more as to why the Pope appeases those who is slaughtering Christians, jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. to this very day.
Posted by: R_not
R_not,
How exactly does Pope Benedict appease "those who is [sic] slaughtering Christians, jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. to this very day." ?
Please give me one example.
You do recall this story, don't you?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/09/12/ap/world/mainD8K3I7LO0.shtml
Pope Invites Dialogue With Muslims
Pope Benedict XVI invites dialogue with Muslims, saying holy war against God's nature
REGENSBURG, Germany, Sep. 12, 2006
By VICTOR L. SIMPSON Associated Press Writer
(AP) Pope Benedict XVI said Tuesday that Islamic holy war was against God's nature and invited Muslims to join in a peaceful cultural dialogue.
In a speech at Regensburg University, Benedict made an unusual reference to jihad, or holy war _ a concept used by today's Islamic extremists to justify suicide bombings and other attacks.
Benedict's address was about faith and reason, and how they cannot be separated and are essential for "that genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today."
Citing historic Christian commentary on holy war and forced conversion, the 79-year-old pontiff quoted from a 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologos.
"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"
Clearly aware of the sensitivity of the issue, Benedict added, "I quote," twice before pronouncing the phrases on Islam and described them as "brusque," while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.
"The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable," Benedict said.
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," the pope said, issuing an open invitation to dialogue among cultures.
The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said the pope was not giving an interpretation of Islam as "something violent" although he said the religion contains both violent and nonviolent strains.
Benedict did not touch directly on the current controversy over Islamic extremism, although it is an issue he follows with concern. Last year in Cologne, Germany, he urged Islamic leaders to take responsibility for their communities and teach their young to abhor violence.
Last week, he told a gathering of Christian, Muslim and Jewish representatives in Italy that no one can "use the motive of religious difference as a reason or pretext for bellicose behavior toward other human beings."
Benedict will make his first visit to a Muslim country in November, when he is scheduled to travel to Turkey.
Gerlinde Axmann, a 40-year-old social worker, watched Tuesday's speech on one of the large screens set up in a square near the cathedral.
"That was a very important start to dialogue with Muslims amid the terrorist threat," she said, calling Benedict's appeal to reason "a building block toward finding a way to argue with each other without using weapons."
"I think it's very important for him to bring these things up in society," she said. "Muslims aren't going to take us seriously until we become conscious of our own values. For example, they take the pope much more seriously than others in the West."
Benedict earlier celebrated Mass for some 230,000 people, the second-largest crowd of his six-day homecoming tour, which ends Thursday.
From atop the altar platform, the pope looked over a throng dotted with blue-and-white Bavarian flags and the yellow-and-white Vatican banners.
In discussing faith and reason, Benedict in his sermon at Mass scoffed at the idea of a "mathematically ordered cosmos" without any hand of God. He said this would mean "nothing more than a chance result of evolution."
"We believe in God. This is a fundamental decision on our part."
Eva Renz dozed in the sun as she waited for the pope, having been on the road since 3 a.m. with her husband and six children.
"His presence is important because he is a representative of Christ," she said. "I brought all the children because it's important for them to see this huge crowd and all the joy."
Some people turned out in spite of disagreeing with Benedict's conservative stands such as his opposition to ordaining women and married men.
Machine shop worker Kurt Kellner, 40, came to the Mass but was skeptical about whether Benedict would win him over. "I know his positions, they're not entirely my opinions. I want to take part in the event," he said, calling Benedict "relatively good" as pope. "He knows how to move people," he said.
In his speech at the university, where he once taught theology, Benedict stressed that "a reason which is deaf to the divine and which relegates religion into the realm of subcultures is incapable of entering a dialogue of cultures."
But he assured that his critique of modern reason "has nothing to do with putting the clock back."
"The positive aspects of modernity are to be acknowledged unreservedly," he said.
MMVI The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
So, tell me, R_not, just exactly how is this appeasement?
Benedict is calling the Muslims on the violence they are perpetrating. Of course there were violent reactions in the Muslim world to his speech, and a nun was slaughtered as a response, to name one incident.
I admire Benedict for his courageous statement, and I tell you this is exactly the opposite of appeasement, so please stop repeating your mindless mantra that the Pope is an appeaser.
it Muslims do not like the crucifixs in the hospitals let them go back to their homeland and go to the joke is medical care is in dar al Islam
$50 million from the Saudis to the Pope to buy influence, paid for by oil royalties. The US generates $50 million in GNP every 131 seconds, round the clock, no weekends or Martin Luther King days off. I hate that America has become nothing more than a business. But it is a really good one. Congratulations on getting the crosses removed. Good luck on taking over the world.
P.S. If you had spoken out against the last Pope, John Paul II, for policies of spineless appeasement of Muslims I would not have complained or taken issue with you, but seeing the differences between Benedict and his predecessors is not rocket science. You messed up bigtime on that one.
templar, many, many, many thanks for making that statement about the late Pope. Very few Catholics will admit that, while he was a Winston Churchill regarding Communism, JPII was a Neville Chamberlain regarding Islam. Almost *no* Catholic in the blogosphere will admit that because they're so blinded by the man's charisma and the cult of personality that arose around him, and too many of them believe that Holy Mother Church Can Do No Wrong.
I agree with your analogy Joseph D'Hippolito. A test for the Pope is coming soon. He must openly caution/warn the new Muslim president of Nigeria that the rights of millions of Christians in that country must be maintained. In the meantime, I continue to wonder what was said behind closed doors between the Pope and the former president of Iran, Khatemi, on his visitlast week. Rueters ran the story as if the Pope offered a few remarks and that the evil agent of Iran had him pushed to a corner over the speech of last fall. I hope that it wasn't that one-sided.
"we must win OUR OWN hearts and minds"
I also believe this is the crucial issue. And speaking of the Pope, his contribution to that very subject in the book "Without Roots" (see link below) which he wrote together with Marcello Pera -- ex-president of the Italian senate -- is quite interesting. These gentlemen claim it's all about a severe identity crisis.
http://www.amazon.com/Without-Roots-Relativism-Christianity-Islam/dp/0465006272/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-3712743-4335230?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178781214&sr=8-1
"The US generates $50 million in GNP every 131 seconds, round the clock, no weekends or Martin Luther King days off. I hate that America has become nothing more than a business."
Posted by: pez
...The Muslim terrorists generates piles of bodies, every day, round the clock, worldwide, no weekends or Ramadan vacations off. I hate that Muslim terrorists have no intention of becoming peaceful contributors to world society and have become nothing more than a thrill kill machine...
slowly by slowly, inch by inch, all the countries are turing into to muslim countries. sharia law is next. Ladies, start hunting up those head scarves.........
sheiknbake4pork
The Brewing and Distillery industry would never stand for it mate, have no fear! Honestly can you imagine a Scotsman, like myself, being denied the right to a Single Malt? I'd be ripping bits off you that you never realised you had....
The crucified Christ offends these Muslim women and they find a collective voice to censor the image of Christ suffering for the sins of the world.
Today the hospitals, tomorrow the museums. They'll want to erase Christ's image from everything that inspires self-sacrifice and tolerance. Christ's message must be obliterated in order for the message of mo da ped to stand alone as the source of all demonic inspiration. Sanitize the host culture so that the template of civilization can be converted to the dark ages.
Posted by: Allahfanculo
Exactly. I don't think it's worth the time to try and rationally approach Muslims... those who would respond to this approach will seek US out.. or go to places on their own initiative.
Those who are True Believers must be knocked into the dirt over and over again until they can no longer sustain a program of launching attacks against other cultures or other peoples.
The fence sitters and the rest will do the right thing when they see the futility and expense of trying to push the Islamic agenda and do jihad.
Active jihadis must be knocked down. The whole support structure needs to come under severe stress. Ideological battles must be given equal importance in the west.
The base of it all - the belief system - must be stressed and dis-integrated. When people in Islamia see that the 'will of Allah' is for the whole thing to be defeated... they will give it up for the time being.
Nothing succeeds like success.
Believers in a sociopathic justification machine will respond to force, consistently applied against the machine. They won't respond to 'nice', 'ecumenicism','bribes','meaningful discourse', 'rational argument' or anything else people in Western Judeo-Christian culture assume is a universal trait of people.
The Islamic world needs to come under constant assault in many dimensions until it gives way and loses the momentum it needs to continue to fight.
Sorry - the above was in response to Allahfanculo...
Pope John Paul II (kissing the Koran) and President Reagan (pulling troups out of Lebanon) were both focused on a different threat---a significant global threat that many at the time didn't think could be confronted successfully. Toppling Communism was a big job, so its only natural that their failings with respect to Jihad are placed in context.
And the islamization of the world continues without so much as a whimper. There will be blood spilled, when the people wake up one day with moslem overlords. Till then, everyone just keep your heads in the sports section and keep that TV on...you know if you don't know about things...they don't exist.
/sarcasm
JSobieksi, you're quite right about the late pope and the late president focusing on what were seen at the time as graver threats. Nevertheless, the late pope refused to support the 1990-91 Gulf War that liberated Kuwait; had the world listened, Iraq would have annexed Kuwait and brutalized its residents the way Saddam brutalized his own people. The late pope also discouraged any activism on behalf of Middle Eastern Christians in communion with the Vatican because it might interfere with his agenda of allying with Islam against secularism, materialism and Communism.
Moreover, many Vatican prelates had (and still have) a favorable view of Islam. Some have used its as a cover for pro-Arab, anti-Israel and anti-U.S. bias.
I can substantiate all this. Please read the following (some of which I've written):
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11662
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13455
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15865
http://www.jewishtoronto.com/page.html?ArticleID=103962 (originally from the Jerusalem Post)
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6973&eng=y
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=43322&eng=y
In relation to d'hippolito's post:
Perhaps there is a place for ordinary Catholics everywhere (and not only Catholics) to write to their local bishops, archbishops and cardinals - and to the Pope himself - urging public support for all Christians who are trapped within the Islamised world, and seeking a fearless encyclical or pastoral letter concerning Islam. All Muslim-background Christians in Western countries need to be lovingly protected, within monasteries or convents and under new identities if necessary (and the church should be pressuring our civil authorities to recognise the threats to which these people are exposed, and take firm action to restrain evil, i.e. to prevent murder, torture, etc.).
Cannot Benedict grant an audience to Spencer (who is Catholic), together with Bat Ye'or and Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Benedict granted Fallaci an interview. The least he can do is receive counsel from a Catholic, a Jew and an Apostate who each in their own way have done a great deal to warn the non-Muslim world that the jihad which nearly destroyed us all in the 7th century and in the 17th is on the march again.
Excellent suggestions, Joseph.
These are exactly the kinds of things we should be doing.
There may also be political solutions in foreign policy that we should be calling for with our governments (the Holy See should be made aware of such ideas as well) such as the one made by Elias on behalf of the Assyrians in the following.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016370.php#comments
Dumbledoresarmy:
My apologies for the mistake above. That last post of mine should have been addressed to you.
"and too many of them believe that Holy Mother Church Can Do No Wrong."
Firstly, I feel sick from this story to realize this can happen in Italy where I expected more from Italians and secondly, am sad to find out that Holy Mother Church is helping with sancutuary for illegals in my country the U.S.A. :(
Hafiz the Great Poet even wrote in his poems about Jesus. How they declare their unrightious right in another land is beyound me! Yet we are reminded everyday of their Mo-allah unfaithfullness! They can't get their religion straight! They offend me more and more and more!
"and too many of them believe that Holy Mother Church Can Do No Wrong."
“Yep. And here we were ragging mostly on the french and sometimes the Germans for their dhimmitude.
At least the French people made some NOISE at the ballot box and I hope they follow up nicely in the June Parliamentary elections to give Mr. Sarko the political muscle he needs.
Looks like the Italians are vying for top spot as dhimmi laughing stock in Europe. Spain is a close second.
The tide has begun to turn in Europe. Let's hope that we shall flush all these leftist dhimmi goofballs out of office sooner rather than later!”
So, the French and the Germans were ragged for their dhimmitude. The French people made some noise at the ballot box. The Italians are vying for top spot [in dhimmitude]. Spain is a close second.
On the other hand, “the tide has begun to turn in Europe”. But how is this possible, if all these nations are so steeped in dhimmitude? Lord, how tedious and adolescent this blanket national stereotyping is.