Spengler: "It is all so pointless and sophomoric; anyone can quote the Koran, or for that matter the Bible, to show whatever one wants"

"There are no armed groups of Jews and Christians committing violence today and justifying that violence by reference to their Scriptures."

Hey Robert,

You might want to check out the Jewish orthodox settlers in the West Bank and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda.

The magic of turnspeak. the proof is in the actions! . when Christians , Jews , Buddhists start blowing up tube stations and beheading people for their god's glory , and speak of taking over the world and destroying all other Religions and creeds then people can make weak , baseless comparisons like that. This constant lumping all faiths as just as Violent as Islam will be remembered as the greatest appeasement to an aggressor in the history of mankind. we are slitting our own throats .

LOL! "sublimer" the Muslim (who ain't "sublime," btw) thinks he just made a valid comparison! Again, please allow me to: LOL!

MoBlows,

I just pointed out a factual error. If Spencer said , "There are practically no armed groups...." I would have shut up. I am just making sure we do not indulge in absolutist statements that tend to a simple manichaeism which might make us feel good but which is inherently false.

LOL! "sublimer" the Muslim (who ain't "sublime," btw)

LOL ! LOL! You are so perceptive. LMAO. You are so sweet.

Thank You, Mr. Muslim. But your religion - ISN'T "sweet." It's the most depraved thing going in the World these days.

sublimer, look at it in context. if you compare the numbers in Violence and compare the retoric you will clearly see that there is NO comparison of Islamic violence compared to any other faction. What the Palestinians are teaching their children alone makes Islam one of the greatest abusers in history. there have been over 4000 Terror attacks since 911. you'de be hard pressed to find equal numbers from any group in the last 200 years aside from Nazi Germany. an apt comparison i'd say.

"a close examination of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures and how they have been interpreted"

Did you include in your book the interpretations of Pope Innocent III or Juan Gines de Sepulveda ? Or did you do some more selective quoting ?

4000 Terror attacks ? You surely are including what's going on in Iraq... which happens to be in a civil war. can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?

Darcy. Islam is not sweet. You are sweet.

Spengler: "It is all so pointless and sophomoric; anyone can quote the Koran, or for that matter the Bible, to show whatever one wants"

Yeah, you can do that with a science book too; or a telephone book. Everythings relative man; no absolute truths or anything.

I have never said, and will never say, that any view of Islam is correct or incorrect. That is because there is no central authority in Islam that can decide such matters. I do say, and have said many times, that jihadists recruit by presenting their version of Islam as pure, true, and correct Islam, and that this view is buttressed by passages from the Qur'an and Sunnah as they have been understood by mainstream Islamic commentators...

You both say these things as earnestly as if you had a sword to your next to your respective throats.

Perhaps, not a bad idea under contemporary circumstances.

Like they said in the 50's "Duck and Cover!"

sublimer-

No violence (except whipping moneychangers out of the Temple, none of whom died) can be justified by what Jesus said, as his example of pacifism and non-resistence demonstrated. ("Turn the other cheek" etc.) Any group claiming to be "Christian" which then wars in the name of "Christianity" is hypocritical and fraudulent. So, as Mr. Spencer noted, their acts are not based on the claims of their religious texts.

The "orthodox Jews" in the West Bank are doing what the Arab Muslims in the area are doing: insisting that their holy dogma gives them the lease to the land.

I think, historically, they have the earlier claim to the region, so the idea of the "grandfather" clause of law favors them.

And I don't think that they would we fighting if the Arab nations around the newly-re-established state of Israel (1948) had NOT declared war on the Jews and immediately invaded Israel.

The Jews were willing to live with an unjust (to them) two-state U.N. solution. The Arabs and nascent "Palestinians" were not.

The Jews, orthodox and otherwise, defended themselves. And won.

Are defensive wars not allowed?

And are they the same as the aggressive, imperialistic jihad?

Concerning your comparison of Islam with Nazi Germany, "MoBlows," you know how the Muslims are always saying thus and such is "Un-Islamic"?

Well, in May, 1933, in Berlin, the Nazi's burned over 20,000 books because they were "Un-German."

And now it's May, 2007, 74 years later, and the Nazi's, now called "Muslims," are again showing their evil faces and attempting to rule the world through murder and genocide.

Ain't gonna happen, "sublimer." So, back to the filthy alleys of Lahore with you.

can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?--sublimer

Because the Sunni and the Shia decided they rather kill each other over something that happened over 1300 years ago, rather than sharing power in Iraq and peacefully coexisting. But I know, blaming America is so much easier than admitting that.

No, "sublimer," I am not "sweet" concerning Islam/Muslims. You can expect me to fight for Western civilization as resolvedly as possible, whatever that may entail.

4000 Terror attacks ? You surely are including what's going on in Iraq... which happens to be in a civil war. can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?

Posted by: sublimer

--------------------------------------------------

Iraq is in a Civil war because of a centuries old fight between Sunni and Shiite , that's why. It quite easy to see from History that if there is one thing Muslims love more than killing infidels is killing other factions of " Muslims "
The Civil war in Iraq has little to do with the US or the West, this sort of Civil unrest is built right into the Religion, a Religion i might remind you that is considered " Perfect" and unchangable unlike other Religions that Evolve with the ideals of mankind. Islam is in the same place it started , stuck in a tribal , murdering mentality. Islam is the snake that eats it's own tail. when there is no Outsiders to kill and devour, it turns on itself.

"Staff of magius" - and that "something that happened over 1300 years ago" is who rightfully succeeded Muhammed - the Caliphs (Sunni)or Ali, Mo's nephew (Shi'a)?

Actions speak louder than words. Being PC about it is being a denier of truth, an avoider, an appeaser and a helpmate to the fanatical murderers. Mr. Spencer speaks truth to (a hateful, evil) power.

Good on him. Everyone should use him as a role model in these conversations rather than dance around the issues.

sublimer-

No violence (except whipping moneychangers out of the Temple, none of whom died) can be justified by what Jesus said, as his example of pacifism and non-resistence demonstrated. ("Turn the other cheek" etc.)

-- I also highly admire Jesus' pacifism. If everybody abided by his phlosophy, there would be no wars.

Any group claiming to be "Christian" which then wars in the name of "Christianity" is hypocritical and fraudulent.

-- I also agree with you. They are hypocritical and fraudulent.

So, as Mr. Spencer noted, their acts are not based on the claims of their religious texts.

-- This is where I disagree. They are based on religious texts because they too indulged in selective quoting. Look up Sepulveda. How do you explain the fact that slavery was justified religiously too ?

The "orthodox Jews" in the West Bank are doing what the Arab Muslims in the area are doing: insisting that their holy dogma gives them the lease to the land.

-- I agree. They're both pretty dogmatic in their beliefs.

I think, historically, they have the earlier claim to the region, so the idea of the "grandfather" clause of law favors them.

-- You mean "religiously". while there were some Jews who lived in Palestine, the Ashkenazi Jews who went to Palestine since the Sykes-Balfour declaration were either claimed a Zionist/Socialist or a religious justification to reclaim the land. If the rule of the grandfather applied here, Israel should be palestinian because they were living there for more than 2000 years.

And I don't think that they would we fighting if the Arab nations around the newly-re-established state of Israel (1948) had NOT declared war on the Jews and immediately invaded Israel.

-- If you were invaded, would you declare war ?

The Jews were willing to live with an unjust (to them) two-state U.N. solution. The Arabs and nascent "Palestinians" were not.

-- If the French invaded the U.S. (citing the Louisiana purchase as unfair and citing mythological reasons for reoccupation) and the United nations decided to give 60 % of the U.S. to France, would that be fair or unfair ?

The Jews, orthodox and otherwise, defended themselves. And won.

-- They did indeed win. The law of the jungle prevails.

Are defensive wars not allowed?

-- Of course they are. That's why the Palestinians are fighting.

And are they the same as the aggressive, imperialistic jihad?

-- Imperialist Jihad is aggressive and unjust. Defending your homeland is something else. You are confusing the two.

“I do not use Qur'anic citations to show that Islam is hateful, bigoted, or warlike. In reality, I report on how jihadists use Qur'anic citations to justify hateful, bigoted, and warlike actions.”

This position is understandable from someone in the public arena but I think for the rest of us we have to believe that the Koran can be judged on what it fairly clearly says and since it says the awful things, repeated ad nauseam, that it does and which are used to justify today & historically, murder, conquest & terror, then it is condemnable outright.

Would it have made sense in 1932 to say “I do not use citations from Hitler’s Mein Kampf to show that Nazism is hateful, bigoted, or warlike. In reality, I report on how the Nazis use its citations to justify hateful, bigoted, and warlike actions. “ ?

True, there is no central authority in Islam today to confirm exactly how to read the Koran, but when its intolerant, infidel-hatemongering and jihadic texts are clear enough and repeated enough, we do not need a central authority’s interpretation to say that no valid religion can come out of it.

MoBlow and staff of magius,

Can you give me evidence that the civil war between shiites and sunnis have been going on unabated for 1300 years ? This is one of the biggest lies purported by Spencer.

Robert,

Can you reply to FM's challenge to your quote ? I cannot do this all by myself.

Darcy--yep. I really don't see why somebody as seemingly knowledgeable as Sublime tries to appear, couldn't figure that one out himself.

MoBlow and staff of magius,

Can you give me evidence that the civil war between shiites and sunnis have been going on unabated for 1300 years ? This is one of the biggest lies purported by Spencer.

Posted by: sublimer

-------------------------------------------------

Never said " unbated "i said centuries old, which it is. what's your point? cause mine is that Muslims can't even be at peace amongst themselves let alone the rest of the world, and that you simply cannot dispute. Just look at your "Civil War " in Iraq, that is a Sunni/Shiite rift that has next to nothing to do with anything except the fact that Islam cannot achieve live in peace , even with itself.

The one important fact that Spengler ignores here is that, for scriptural religions, interpretations are as much as part of the canon as the source texts themselves. This is very marked in Orthodox Judaism, where the sanctioned interpretations ("Oral Torah"--the Mishnah) are regarded as having equal status (divine words) to the source written text ("Written Torah"--the Pentateuch) that they interpret. It is that which separates Judaism from other religions that hold to the Written Torah (Christianity and Samaritanism are two examples). But all institutionalized scriptural religions hold the tenet that Divine Writ cannot be divorced from its sanctioned interpretations.

Re the Iraq Civil War: peace in the Islamic world invariably means there's a strongman keeping the lid down on the warring factions. Saddam removed, centuries-old Sunni/Shia war in Iraq renewed. The Muslims have proved incapable of stepping outside the dictatorship/anarchy dichotomy.

The Palestinians are aggressively pursuing an offensive assault, not a defensive struggle.

Here is the only thing I found on Sunni-Shia relations on the net :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Shi'a-Sunni_relations

read it and see if it fits with your clame that civil war has been going on unabated for 1300 years or if the present civil war has not been conflagrated by the american invasion and subsequent occupation. i am not saying it it is the U.S.'s fault. I am just saying that whatever pre-existing tensions existed have been exacerbated by the power vacuum left when the Neo-cons decided to invade Iraq with no exit strategy and with no peace planning in mind .

exsgtbrown,

Hug a pony for me.

MoBlow,

forget the unabated. Give me proof that the civil war is centuries long. If the Japanese and the Russians started fighting today, would we say that the war has been lasting for 100 years just because they had fought once in the 20th century ?

Sublimer try this :

http://hnn.us/articles/934.html

and this for a start:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0117/p25s01-wome.html

" The split between the two main branches of Islam is NEARLY 1400 YEARS OLD, AND STARTED WITH A FIGHT OVER WHO SHOULD LEAD THE FAITHFUL after the prophet Muhammad's death in 632. One side believed that direct descendants of the prophet should take up the mantle of the caliph – the leader of the world's faithful. They were known as the Shiat-Ali, or "partisans of Ali," after the prophet's cousin and son-in-law Ali, whom they favored to become caliph. In time, they came simply to be known as Shiites.

The other side, the Sunnis, thought that any worthy man could lead the faithful, regardless of lineage, and favored Abu Bakr, an early convert to Islam who had married into Muhammad's family. "Sunni" is derived from the Arab word for "followers" and is shorthand for "followers of the prophet."

The Shiites were the eventual losers in a violent struggle for mastery that lasted decades, a fact now reflected in their minority status within global Islam.

But while the civil war now raging between Shiite and Sunni in Iraq is sometimes cast as an extension of this age-old religious struggle, today's conflict is about something slightly different. "

A Muslim should know this.

sublimer,

"You might want to check out the Jewish orthodox settlers in the West Bank and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda."

The last time I have looked, these must be citizen forces against terror groups.

of course i can't PROVE it^^^ , it's just historical fact afterall, unlike claiming that Islam is a " Religion of peace" . LOL!!

sublimer,

Since the news has not done any news reports about the Orthodox Jewish self-defense groups or Christian citzen defense group in Uganda then it means they were started as defensive citizen groups.

This is so good of you and I agree. They must if they can come forward and support their beliefs and true interpretation of how they got there. Our Bible people take out of text to try and give them excuse why they do what they do. "Why it says right here!" Uhh read further! It is great how you do this comparison. The meanings though are so parable but here I go apostate or sharia woman. Their meaning stops at Mo the time of Abraham! Living in The 1st Humanity=DEATH!
Abraham was to represent man's end of bondage of death. We now have a new redemption in Jesus.
2nd Humanity=LIFE!
They are working out of the 1st Humanity now!
All these devided religions in United States are all done through someone's interpretation. When we should really be listening to scholars. It is easy then to see what has been added and taken away.

MoBlows,

Thanks for your answer. I already knew about the split and the tensions though. But I am asking about the civil war. has it been centuries long ?????

"220 Qassam missiles fired from Gaza in the six months of the partial ceasefire, 82 bomb-traps for Israeli border patrols and 66 shooting attacks"

....So much for Muslims honoring a ceasefire....

subslimer !

Hug an angry polar bear for everyone.
Idiot.

Bigcatgirl,

"Since the news..." you might as well say since allh or since God said this or didn't say this. I hope you don't base your knowledge on what the news selects to feed you. Do those two groups base their fight on religious texts ? or are they merely nationalist defensive groups ? That's the implication of my question to Robert Spencer.

MoBlows,

Thanks for your answer. I already knew about the split and the tensions though. But I am asking about the civil war. has it been centuries long ?????

Posted by: sublimer

--------------------------------------------------

You are talking semantics. It's a centuries old Rift that if not kept under control by strongmen like Hussein and other Tryrannical leaders would have become an ongoing CIVIL WAR. it's the same thing. it was kept under some form of control through terror and fear. the Civil war you refer to is because as in Islam when it is left to it's own devices it becomes violent and aggressive. the only time in History that Islam has been kept under control and at bay is when it is in an inferior position, like in the Ottoman Empire or the British Empire. with no controls over it Islam does what it is meant to do . Destroy and subjugate all others, including Muslims .

using the term "Civil War" is a deflection tactic used by sympathizers and aoplogists. Islam IS Islam and it will never change it's stripes.

Freedom,

Hug a unicorn for me.

Sublimer

I don't know about the Lord's Resistance Army. But on Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria, their holding on to that place isn't different from Arabs holding on to places like Oman, Emirates, et al. When these Orthodox Jews want to wipe out the Eastern Orthodox in Serbia, Hinduism in India, Buddhism in Thailand, Confucianism in China, et al, let me know. I'll then concede that you have a legitimate equivalent.

We aren't talking about Muslims keeping Christianity and Judaism out of the Arabian peninsula, which would be the equivalent of Jewish settlers in Judea and Samaria. We are talking about Muslims trying to dominate the world - not only violently using Jihad, but also demographically and proselytizing.

Sublimer,

Nice shift in point. Wikipedia aside, the reference was unimportant comparative to your response. The removal of Hussein did incite the current secterian violence, and I for one think that is advantageous to all those outside of Islam. terms like "Neo-cons", "exit strategy" and "peace planning" are misplaced in this thread.

As far as your "defensive warfare claim", here's the rub on that. Per the Qur'an, the whole world is Allah's and Muslims are instructed to cleanse the world of all opposition to his will. Simple existence outside of the realm of Islam justifies "defensive warfare" against that existence.

The original story about how Spengler misses the point is valid. Anyone can find things in a text they are attempting to justify. The difference of those who act aggressively on a justification discovered in a text, which is commonplace in Islam, and say for arguments sake, those who act similarly in the name of Christian texts is, quite frankly....remarkable.

Staying on-topic always aids the flow of the debate.

MoBlows,

So now "civil war" is a semantic tactic ? So what are you saying there is no civil war ? It is just Islam which is violent is evil is etc.... ? How do you explain the fact that there intermarriages between sunnis and shia ? Your argument does not make any sense. First you say that the civil war is centuries long and now you say it does not exist. You then say that anyways Islam is in a constatnt state of Hobbesian war of all against all, unless put under the lid by empires like the Ottomans. Do you know that the Ottomans were Muslims ?

Infidel Pride,

Per your example of Judea and Samaria, You are assuming that homeland claims are necessarily trumped by religious claims. I don't know if you believe in that but I don't.

Awake,

I think you've missed the point altogether. The removal of Hussein might have caused the civil war. Does that mean that the civil war was going on for 1300 years ? You also seem to forget that the reason the civil war started was because al Zarqawi (Al Qaeda) decide to bomb a respected Shia Mosque. Why was Al Zarqawi in Iraq ? I guess we come back to my first question.

Sublimer you might want to read my posts again. i quoted " Civil War " in regards to your points. you called it that. i didn't call what has been going on for 1300+ years a Civil war , i called it a centuries old rift , which it is. i agree it is now a "Civil War" in Iraq because there is nobody with the will to crush the civil disobedience. One more time tell me what is your point?

I do though believe that calling it a "Civil war" in Iraq is irrelevant cause the seeds of distrust and the fighting between Sunni and Shiite has been going on for centuries.

"It is all so pointless and sophomoric; anyone can quote the Koran, or for that matter the Bible, to show whatever one wants"

If you can't quote the Koran to determine what Muslims believe, what's the point in having the book? The words must mean something to someone -- or to a lot of people.

The Koran, and the bible for that matter, provide a belief system and instructions on acceptable behavior for those believe in them as the revealed word of God.

It would be pointless and sophomoric not to reference these books in trying to understand the minset of their folowers.

MoBlows,

I finaly agree with you. Centuries old rift would be correct. somone should send the memo to Robert Spencer though so he stops saying 1300 years old civil war.

MoBlows,

That was my point all along.

Sorry for being pedantic and insisting on the correct use of words, but language is the basis of any reasoning. Logos in Greek means both language and ratiocination. Read the chapter "On Language" in Hobbes' Leviathan. It is very interesting.

@Sublimer

You are absolutely right. All was quite well in Iraq before Bush (the idiot) went in thinking that Arabs were just like Westerners and interested in democracy, human rights, and peace!

What a joke.

Hussein was exactly what the Arabs need. A ruthless, son-of-a-bitch who could get medieval on their asses. A Muslim Hitler!

We completely overestimated the intelligence and decency of Muslim Arabs who can be kept peaceful only under the threat of terrorism.

The Shia were treated worse than Shit under Hussein! Who cares? We rescued them and now they hate us.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with flies!

Are you Muslim Sublimer?

Fleas!

The Shia were treated worse than Shit under Hussein! Who cares? We rescued them and now they hate us

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2

--------------------------------------------------

And that is really the point. It was going on before and it will go on after the Americans leave. It's an Islam thing , not an American or Western thing. like i said if there ever was a period that there was little or no fighting it was because someone else was in control, like Hussein for example. It's really the only thing that keeps Muslims in line and civil. Brute Force. sad but true.the Rift / Civil War , whatever is happenning because there is noone with the will in Iraq to stop it.

sublimer

I normally don't, but given what Islam is, I do. In other words, if the Jews were trying to evict anybody else from that territory who had been there for centuries, I'd probably oppose that. However, given that it's Muslims that they are trying to evict, and given that if Muslims demographically gain an edge there, it would be over for Israel, I don't fault the Jews at all. Similarly if the Serbs and Indians were to take steps to de-Islamize Kosovo and Kashmir, I'd fully support it.

Otherwise, in the case of other conflicts, such as if Ireland wanted to expel all Protestants from Ulster, I wouldn't.

Spengler must be smoking pot these days. Mindless equivocation such as this is what I term divide-by-two. Spengler does not do his homework, divides by two, equates the correct Spencer to incorrect and egregious Armstrong, and in so doing rises above the fray (in his own self-image, at least).

If he's feeling a vacuum inside, he should just not write anything.

can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?

Posted by: sublimer

If the US caused the "civil war" in Iraq, please explain why the US Muslims are worried about sectarian violence here in America?
As far as I know there is no "power vacuum" in Dearborn or Minneapolis.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007May07/0,4670,USMuslims,00.html

What university are you a sophomore at?

@fedupinamerica

Gracias!

Part of the American backbone during the Civil War was the sermons of the northern preachers explicating the evils of slavery. They were considered then to be liberal. Today the tide has turned, and the conservatives are part of the backbone of American values as the rest of the culture slides into relativism. Again, IMHO, from the pulpits of the American fundamentalist churches the salvation of America will come.

I have given a copy of Spencer's book, _The Truth About Mohammed_ to the my church's library. The pastor has read it and so others are also reading it. When I am finished with Spencer's other works, I shall donate them. From what I have heard, it is having an impact.

Bottom line in the war on Islam: Spencer keep writing and join an Independent Bible church.

Islam has no idea of what they are up against.

MoBlows,

I am a Muslim.

Yankee Doodle,

Although I disagree with the words you use, I agree with your assessment. Although I support democracy, most Muslim countries cannot afford democracy right now. Democracy, unlike what Bush (the idiot) says, is not simply a process of voting. It needs to exist in a context where most of the people are educated and a society where humanities and the arts are flourishing. The founding fathers of the U.S. were part of the Enlightenment century in 18th century Europe. So you cannot just come and impose democracy. It has to be internal and has to be the final flowering of a mobile civil society interested in philosophy, freedom and most importantly able to think for itself. A lot of you people are so discouraged by what you see in Iraq that you think Muslims are incapable of this. But you seem to forget that Iraq was ruled by a dictator where this civil society was not allowed to exist. Look at Tunisia or Morocco or malaysia or indonesia for a counterpoint.

Infidel,

I am sorry tho see that you think that way. You do have those principles but you've made an exception solely for Muslims. This is the reason why Muslims radicalize themselves. They think that nobody wants to hear their plight. I am thinking mostly of the Palestinians who have been stateless for more than 50 years now. I think a respectable two state solution with viable borders would put an end to the images of humiliation at check points and bulldozing which Arabs see on TV and which fuel terrorism today.

While being "nice" about the subject of Islam might make us friends, it will not defeat our enemies.

Islam is a cult. The Mormons are a cult. The big difference? Islam has Muhammad as its center, and the Mormons have Jesus Christ.

I can tolerate Mormonism. I can not tolerate Islam.

I might vote for a Mitt Romney. I would never vote for an Barrack Obama. Guilty by association in varying degrees.

Get the picture?

Auntbea,

Look up an article on the French intifada and how people reappropriate symbols they see on TV. If there was a war between the US and Mexico and there happened to be a neighborhood in France with a lot of Mexicans and Americans what do you think will happen ? Have you ever been to school ?

I do understand the point Foehammer,

You would have been a perfect kapo in nazi germany.

This discussion has gone waaaay OT. I suggest everyone "RTFA", as we say in the tech world:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IE08Ak05.html

Though it criticized Robert Spencer implicitly, the poet whom Spengler is writing about supports RS's general viewpoint with the eloquence of an insider.

Sublimer, do you really believe this ignored "Plight" is what is causing Muslims to Radicalize? because they think nobody is listening?

You don't think that the Radicalism has been going on all along and that it is the Clerics and Imams who are radicalizing the Muslims of the world. I do . it has ittle to do with their plight cause their plight is self imposed because of the teachings of MO and Islam. When Islam is willing to modernize and live in peace with all peoples and it's neigbours you will see this Plight disapear. It's in their hands , not ours. all we can do is defend our way of life and if Islam intends to keep pursuing our destruction the plight of Muslims will worsen. We have a right to exist .

"Look at Tunisia or Morocco or malaysia or indonesia for a counterpoint."
Posted above.

This is a joke, right?

Robert, I don't know who Spengler is, but I only had to read the first sentence to decide that the piece is either senseless mumbo-jumbo or garden-variety dissembling. The guy seems full of himself and just as unaware of anything specific about Armstrong's work as your own. Frankly I'm shocked that the piece got published. Has the Asia Times no editors? Do they have any standards for what it publishable?

Spengler appears to think that an obscure poet is a great authority on these matters. I'll give him this, he appears to actually have read a few things this Adonis has written. He should have stuck to doing a poetry review. (Maybe this is a review that got rejected by the Arts Editor and so got rewritten as an op ed.)

Quijybo,

Adonis is indeed a great poet.

MoBlows,

I agree with you that the plight is radicalizing, that a ot of the imams have a radicalizing force. But you cannot just say it's the Muslim's problems and wash your hands away. I think that is cowardly. Indeed, a lot of imams are not helping but let's say they all calm down and call for peace. Israel will still be occupying the West Bank. Just this time the population under occupation will be docile. Let's say the Iraqi's calm down and Al Qaeda (as I do really hope) disappears from the surface of the earth. The Iraqis will be docile but still possibly living under American occupation. I mean do you really think the US went there just to promote democracy ? The Industrio-Military complex, the oil companies have had a big say in the invasion. ou know when american politicians say "we have to protect outr interests". what do you think those interests are ? What I am saying is yes a lot of imams are at fault, but you cannot occupy somebody's land without expecting some sort of radicalization.

what if somebody comes and kicks you out of your house, would you get angry. How would you like it that when you get so angry that you want to shoot someone, somebody calls you a radical ?

What I am saying is that the problem is more complex than black or white. It is black and it is white and rational people call for a solution to all problems. Sloganeers call for the eradication of the other.

I have never said, and will never say, that any view of Islam is correct or incorrect. That is because there is no central authority in Islam that can decide such matters.

Makes perfect sense to me.

@sublimer:

LOL. You're chewing on the wrong Jihad Watcher, grasshopper.

Tread lightly.

concerned citizen,

I like the fact that you only link to jihad watch to refute my point.

I mean imagine if I did this and showed it in some Islamist site.

Look at the:

USA (www.kkk.com)

USA (http://www.fatherryan.org/holocaust/neo-nazi/frontpage.htm)

USA (www.jewwatch.com/)

USA (www.davidduke.com/)

You do get the jist right ? You do understand what being selective means ???

Concerned citizen,

Those sites do not stop the United States from being a great country. So please try not to judge a whole country on one man, one event or one episode.

Gnosis,

I almost feel like I have to defend Robert Spencer against your accusation. I hope he could defend himself.

Oh, I am going to so enjoy this....

Sublimer

You've got cause and effect interchanged - I make an exception for Muslims because they are intolerant - not the other way around. And I'm pretty familiar with Muslim intolerance in India for starters, and have noted that they aren't any different anywhere else.

The two state solution that you are talking about already exists - Gaza, for instance, is today Judenfrei (or Judenrein). Hamas totally runs things there. Fact remains that any land that was once part of the Ummah has to revert to the Ummah. Which is why you see not just Hamas, but Fatah claiming Israeli territory. It's why you have Muslims not only claiming Kosovo, but now operating in South West Serbia as well. It's why SIMI (Students Islamic Movement of India - the group instrumental in the 7/11 bombings last year) - has as its manifesto the 'liberation of India from Infidel rule'. It's not enough that they have Fuckistan and Bangladesh - they want India as well. You see that in Bangladesh vs India, where some millions of Bangladeshi Muslims over the years have infiltrated illegally into India. Why don't they respect the two state solution?

As Concerned Citizen pointed out, none of the countries you cite are examples of Islamic tolerance. For instance, how would you like living in a country that had Malaysia's Bhumiputra system, but in this case, directed against Muslims? Such as Muslims must be forced to share their wealth with non-Muslims, regardless of how it's earned? That mosques can't be built in the new capital city?

sublimer wrote:

"I just pointed out a factual error. If Spencer said , "There are practically no armed groups...." I would have shut up. I am just making sure we do not indulge in absolutist statements that tend to a simple manichaeism which might make us feel good but which is inherently false."

A Muslim revert perhaps? Your vocabulary is quite good. You have a Western education, that much is obvious.

The trouble I see here is that your attempts at equivalence are going to get you into no end of illogical thinking. Jewish settlers are not strapping bombs onto themselves or teaching their children to hate. A huge portion of Israel is, in fact, Arab Muslim.

How much of Saudi Arabia is Jewish?

I thought Oswald Spengler was put out of his Western misery long ago.

sublimer wrote:

"4000 Terror attacks ? You surely are including what's going on in Iraq... which happens to be in a civil war. can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?"

Sure, ready?

Russia.

Iran.

Syria.

Muhammad.

Ali.

The Qur'an.

Islam.

Any more questions?

@sublimer

you posted this:

"Sloganeers call for the eradication of the other."

Adolph Hitler and Muhammad called for the eradication of all Jews.

Were they sloganeers?

Sublimer~

Humor me.

Sublimer is about to learn that when Truth isn't on your side, argument is an uphill battle.

Always bring ammunition to a gunfight.

sublimer,

Okay, where in the heck did Mr. Spencer call for the "extermination" of others. How does his work make him a sloganeer.

sublimer stated:

You might want to check out the Jewish orthodox settlers in the West Bank and the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda.

The Lord's Resistance Army is a cult with Joseph Kony, claiming to be a spirit medium, running the freak show. It is hardly a Christian group.

The LRA's "activities" have not been restricted within Uganda either. Kony and his followers have been used as a proxy group by the Islamists in Khartoum in their genocidal war against Sudan's Christian south.

More on the Lord's Resistance Army here.

Ummah News Links

Sublimer wrote:

"What I am saying is that the problem is more complex than black or white. It is black and it is white and rational people call for a solution to all problems. Sloganeers call for the eradication of the other."

Oh, so this must be the reason that Muslim terrorists never wear uniforms and that Islamic states hide behind Washington lobbyists and Islamic charities in order to maintain that powerful "gray" area, right?

A good plan, perhaps, but you see, I believe in black and white and it makes it so, so easy to see what's in-between. There really is not need for moral wishy-washy-ness in this war. Islam is the source of the problem, therefore Islam is black.

The rest is white.

See how easy that was?

Now, if the "gray" Muslims want to become apostates, are you going to allow it or do as "good Muslims" command and slay them? If it really is as complex as you maintain, we wouldn't even be able to find such dogma in Islam, but you see, the Creator didn't dictate anything to Muhammad, so that imperfect "prophet" couldn't have predicted opponents like you're going to encounter in this thread. God creates thinkers and people with free will and self-determination. We are not meant to be slaves or live in fear or own the lies of treacherous propaganda artists like yourself.

Instead, we choose to use logical reasoning and own worthy principles that allow for a future for humanity instead of a quagmire of 7th century misogyny and slavery and racism and hate. If Islam can not come into the Light of Reason, the Islam will meet the Fate it manifests for itself -- and if that ends up being Reformation or Destruction, either way we will all be the winners, Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

So, don't come here and attempt to make this such a complex thing. It is not.

Hammer.

Nail.

Hammer hits nail.

The problem Sublimer is that you seem to not recognize that the Islamists agenda is on a massive worldwide scale . There are more Radical factions in almost every faith , but until i see a plane full of Jews fly into a Tower in a Muslim City or see Christians or Buddhists ambush and behead innocent schoolgirls and 70 year old men , along with the Pope and the highest cardinals and Bishops calling for the absolute destruction of an entire people and of all religions, coupled with all the rallies in the M.E calling for death to anyone who opposes Islam , and then throw in some evidence of Jews or others teaching their children to hate and murder you are talking out of your ass. no offence intended. It's simply just not the same . It's an Islam problem , not a problem with the west. we give aid and care about people . we don't dance in the streets when an atrocity is commited against Muslims, Muslims do when we die example 911. we have a different ideology. We embrace life and Islam embraces Death . i call that Evil and inhumane. Islam is not compatible with compassion or human dignity. Stonings , amputations and the abuses of women and children under the Religion prove that , time and again.

Islam and Muslims need to own up to the fact that their Religion and violent intolerant ways are the symptom, not the result of..

Foehammer nailed it.

99.99% of Christians are in a solid consensus of what the Bible teaches. God created a creation and it is good. Humanity fell, but God still loved us. God chose a particular people Israel to witness to salvation history. God came through a crucified and risen Jesus in history to fulfill salvation history. Those who follow Jesus are saved. Jesus will come again to judge the world and the creation will be transformed into a resurrected state whereby we will be in full communion with God. That's the skinny version ... yes, I've left some other stuff out, but hey, I don't want to write an essay on other essentials like the Trinity. If you want to list some more theological consensus, enjoy. My point is, that the Christian theological narrative is extremely stable. Consider the RC church rarely changes doctrine. Even the evangelicals with their lack of structure have a significantly solid consensus on essentials.

Sure the RCs, Evangelicals, Orthodox, and others disagree on some other stuff, however the consensus regarding the interpretation of the Bible is pretty consistent except for the JW's and liberal Christianity which are a pretty fringe group from a global perspective. And even these dissenters from the consensus do not interpret the Bible in a violent way.

As for Muslims, in Canada an Environics poll said that 7-10% thought that killing fellow citizens was a faithful religious response to Canada's intervention in Afghanistan.

I'm sure someone could write an essay, but it is intellectually dishonest to say that you can make the Bible say whatever you want. Sure on an individual level its true, however as a community Christians have a much more stable narrative than the Muslims do. That is why Islam is such a dangerous religion. The instability of the Koranic teachings and the hadith lend themselves to an unstable consensus regarding the right narrative within their religion. This is why some Muslims can turn from the ghandi-like mecca Mohammad into the murderous Mohammad of Medina. Islam is a Dr.Jeckle and Mr. Hyde religion due to its unstable theology. Dr. Spencer is just pointing out this fact which is reflect on a continual basis in the Islamic tradition, history and current news.

"4000 Terror attacks ? You surely are including what's going on in Iraq... which happens to be in a civil war. can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?"

Sure, ready?

Russia.

Iran.

Syria.

Muhammad.

Ali.

The Qur'an.

Islam.

Any more questions?

Foehammer, I love your system of argumentation and I didn't know that Muhammad, ali and islam were countries. Thanks for enlightening me. Regarding Russia I do remember Beslan and the hostages at the opera caused by Chechen terrorists. There is also Chechenya but there is a war going on over there. Can you tell me how many terrorist attacks happened in Iran ? Look carefully cuz this is not a trick question. There were some terrorist attacks but just let us know who financed that terrorist group. You'll be surprised. As for syria, can you also let us know how many terrorist attacks happened there.

thank you in advance for the research.

A Muslim poster would have us believe that since the Battle of Karbala (and those mountains of eyeballs) the Sunni and Shi'a have been peaceful. If so, then why was there steady, low-level hostilities in the interstices between higher-level hostlities? Why did the Shi'a come up with the doctrine of Taqiyya, if not to turn away the suspicions of Sunnis?

Skipping forward to the 20th century, why did Gertrude Bell in Mesopotamia in the 1920s worry about the revolt of the Shi'a tribes against the Sunni overlords the British had imposed? Why was it that in Pakistan for decades Sunnis have been killing Shi'a, and why is there a Sunni group, Sipaha-e-Sahaba, expressly devoted to killing Shi'a professionals? Why have the Saudis been discriminating against the Shi'a in the Eastern Province (Hasa) for the entire history of Saudi Arabia? Why have the Shi'a and Sunnis been at each other's throats in Yemen? Why, in Bahrain, does a Sunni ruler lord it over a population that is 70% Shi'a, and why have the Sunnis decided to offer citizenship to 50,000 Iraqi Sunnis, if there is "no problem" between Sunnis and Shi'a? Why in Lebanon did the old merchant middle-class of Sunni Arabs treat the Shi'a Arabs with such disdain, and why are they still doing it today? Why, why, why?

It isn't the Americans. They, idiotically, are trying to prevent the Sunnis and Shi'a from being at one another's throats. It's exactly the wrong thing to do, by "tough-minded" innocents, naive about Islam, and Muslims -- beyond belief.

Sublimer

Foehammer bats brilliantly for himself, but on your part, this is more of a vain exercise in semantics rather than an acknowledgment that he gave you a complete response. Your question was:

can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?

Russia is responsible due to its backing of Iran and Syria, not because of its own problems in Chechnya. In fact, one wishes that Russia would recognize this as a problem of a global Jihad. Maybe they do, but they also see the West as allies of Jihad when it suits them such as in Serbia and Chechnya. As a result, unlike Foehammer, I don't completely blame them. So Russia's contribution to this civil war is indirect, courtesy its backing of Iran and Syria.

Iran has been supporting the Mahdi Army, and providing improvised IED's to Shia terrorists in Iraq. While that's been used against US troops, it has also been used against Sunnis. So that's how Iran's been contributing.

Syria has allowed itself to be a gateway into Iraq - allowing both Muslim Brotherhood thugs from Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Syria itself into Iraq, in the process easing the internal Sunni pressure on the Alawite regime. It would also have no problems letting Hizbullah spill into Iraq, should the need arise. So they've been contributing there as well.

As for Mohammed, Quran and Islam,they are the reason that the Iraqis, instead of rebuilding their society a la post WWII Japan or Germany, are focussing instead on making Iraq a true Islamic state. And Ali, and the memory of his struggle against Abu Baqr, Umar and Uthman, as well as Imam Hussein, are what inspire the Shia-Sunni conflict, which is there not only in Iraq, but also Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bahrein, Yemen and Saudi Arabia.

So they don't have to be countries to inspire any civil war in Iraq.

Ok heres some more numbers for Sublimer.

Source:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

" So, you think the Ku Klux Klan and the Spanish Inquisition are bad?
So do we, but...
Put the Numbers in Perspective

More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined.

(source)http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm

Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.

(source) http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingyear.html

More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.

(source)http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/death95w.htm

19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years.

(source)http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ESPYdate.pdf

List of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 3 Months

Date Country City Killed Injured Description
5/7/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 5 A young boy is among the casualities when Islamic extremists fire a rocket into a public building.
5/7/07 Thailand Yala 2 1 A 70-year-old Buddhist man is among two rubber tappers murdered by Islamic radicals.
5/6/07 Afghanistan Ghazni 5 2 Religious extremists target a road construction crew with a roadside bomb, killing five members.
5/6/07 Afghanistan Kabul 2 2 Two American prison guards are killed by a militant in an Afghan army uniform.
5/6/07 Pakistan Punjab 2 1 Sunnis shoot two Shia clerics to death inside a home.
5/6/07 Iraq Samarra 12 11 A suicide bomber blows a dozen souls to Allah.
5/6/07 Iraq Baghdad 28 11 Jihadis rack up twenty-eight dead Iraqis in various attacks.
5/6/07 Iraq Baghdad 42 70 Sunnis car bomb a crowded market, slaughtering over forty Iraqis.
5/6/07 Pal. Auth Rafah 1 4 Islamic fundamentalists attack a school that "mixes" girls and boys in class, killing at least one person.
5/6/07 Chechnya Vedeno 4 3 Four policemen are killed by Jihad militants.
5/5/07 Thailand Yala 1 1 Islamists bomb a public school, killing a guard.
5/5/07 Afghanistan Helmand 2 0 A suicide bomber rams into a police vehicle, killing two Afghans.
5/5/07 Thailand Yala 3 0 A 2-year-old girl is among three people killed by an Islamic bombing.
5/5/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is gunned down by Muslim extremists in a drive-by shooting.
5/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 16 21 A suicide bomber targets young police recruits, murdering at least sixteen.
5/5/07 Afghanistan Farah 8 2 Taliban fighters attack a small town, killing at least eight Afghans defending it.
5/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 3 0 Terrorists mortar a soccer field, killing three children.
5/5/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 1 0 A civilian is gunned down in a sectarian attack.
5/5/07 Iraq Kannan 4 0 Four members of one family are shot to death by Islamic gunmen.
5/4/07 Iraq Fallujah 9 0 Nine people, including four brothers, are kidnapped and executed by the Mujahideen.
5/4/07 Thailand Yala 3 0 A 7-year-old boy and an 11-year-old girl are shot to death along with their father by Islamic 'rebels.'
5/4/07 Pakistan Miran Shah 1 0 Islamists open fire on a car, killing the driver.
5/4/07 Iraq Hilla 5 35 Sunnis bomb a Shia mosque, killing at least five.
5/4/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 Muslim radicals shoot a man to death and throw his body in a river.
5/4/07 Iraq Baghdad 22 2 Two guards at a rival mosque are among twenty-two people killed by sectarian terrorists.
5/4/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is hacked to death by Islamists in public view at a market.
5/4/07 Iraq Suwayra 8 0 Eight people are kidnapped and executed by the Mujahideen.
5/3/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 29 Religious extremists hide a bomb in a fruit cart, killing at least one innocent at a market.
5/3/07 Afghanistan Oruzgan 1 0 A suicide bomber kills at least one Afghan national.
5/3/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Muslims gun down a policeman guarding a school.
5/3/07 Afghanistan Helmand 1 0 A British soldier is shot to death by Taliban terrorists while manning a checkpoint.
5/3/07 Iraq Baghdad 9 0 In a brutal attack, Muslim gunmen storm a home and slaughter a family of nine.
5/3/07 Iraq Baghdad 29 0 Four Filipinos are among twenty-nine people killed by Muslim terrorists in separate attacks.
5/3/07 Iraq Baiji 6 0 Sunnis kidnap and murder six Iraqi policemen.
5/3/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 35-year-old Buddhist succumbs to injuries suffered from a bomb attack days earlier.
5/3/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A villager is shot to death by Muslim radicals.
5/2/07 Iraq Baghdad 4 35 A suicidal Sunni takes out four Shia civilians in a blast.
5/2/07 India Handwara 1 0 A cop is gunned down by the Mujahideen.
5/2/07 Afghanistan Paktia 5 2 Five Afghan troops are killed when Taliban ambush a Czech diplomat's vehicle.
5/2/07 Pakistan Goorwak 1 0 al-Qaeda-backed militants kidnap a man, then cut off his head.
5/2/07 Iraq Baghdad 30 0 Thirty bodies are found dumped following their execution at the hands of sectarian terrorists.
5/2/07 Iraq Mahmoudiya 11 1 Jihadis kill eleven people near a minibus with an explosive.
5/2/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 A lawmaker is shot to death outside his home.
5/2/07 Chechnya Grozny 2 0 Islamic militants set off a remote-controlled bomb, killing two policemen.
5/1/07 Thailand Pattani 1 26 Four children are among the injured when Muslim bombers detonate explosives outside a market.
5/1/07 Iraq Baqubah 10 0 Ten victims of Islamic terrorists are found shot to death.
5/1/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 6 Nineteen Iraqis are killed in sectarian attacks.
5/1/07 Thailand Yala 1 4 A man is gunned down by Muslim militants at a gas station. His wife and young daughter are injured in the attack.
5/1/07 Iraq Iskandariyah 14 8 Sunni gunmen fire on Shia vehicles from a highway overpass, killing at least fourteen innocents, including women and children.
4/30/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 3 A suicide bomber kills an Afghan citizen in a highway attack.
4/30/07 Iraq Ramadi 6 10 Freedom fighters murder six Iraqis with a chlorine bomb.
4/30/07 Pakistan Jandola 2 0 al-Qaeda militants abduct and behead two civilians.
4/30/07 Iraq Baghdad 37 50 Nearly forty people are killed in various sectarian attacks within the Religion of Peace.
4/30/07 Iraq Khalis 32 52 A suicidal Sunni takes out thirty-two mourners at a Shia funeral with an explosives vest.
4/29/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Muslim gunmen take out a 3-year-old boy riding in a truck.
4/29/07 Iraq Baqubah 12 5 A disembodied head and a shooting ambush on a minibus carrying female university students are part of a dozen deaths at the hands of Muslim terrorists.
4/29/07 Iraq Kut 1 9 A 9-year-old boy is killed when Jihadis bomb a house.
4/29/07 India Srinagar 1 25 A Mujahideen grenade attack on a bus stand leaves a woman dead.
4/29/07 Pakistan Naray Dhoke 1 0 A militant attack on a security post leaves one officer dead.
4/29/07 India Kulgam 1 0 A civilian is shot to death by the Mujahideen.
4/29/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 60-year-old cattleman is murdered by Islamic gunmen.
4/29/07 Afghanistan Herat 2 1 A Taliban roadside attack kills two Afghan soldiers.
4/29/07 Iraq Baghdad 17 8 Three street sweepers are among seventeen people murdered by Islamic radicals in separate attacks.
4/29/07 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two Buddhists, including a 14-year-old boy, are murdered by militant Muslims. One is beheaded and both bodies are burned.
4/28/07 Iraq Baqubah 27 0 Twenty-seven victims of Islamic terrorism are discovered in two locations, handcuffed and tortured.
4/28/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 45-year-old man is killed by Muslim gunmen in a drive-by.
4/28/07 Pakistan Peshawar 28 35 A suicidal religious extremist blows twenty-eight souls to Allah in an assassination attempt on a government minister.
4/28/07 Iraq Zafaraniyah 4 3 Four Iraqi humanitarian workers are taken down by Islamic gunmen.
4/28/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 37-year-old civilian is ambushed and killed by radical Muslims.
4/28/07 Iraq Baghdad 22 22 Twenty-two people are killed in Muslim sectarian attacks.
4/28/07 Iraq Karbala 60 170 Freedom fighters car-bomb a Shia shrine, killing sixty innocent people.
4/28/07 Iraq Mosul 17 0 Seventeen bodies are found of kidnapped and murdered victims of the Religion of Peace.
4/28/07 Iraq Baghdad 4 1 Freedom fighters massacre four Iraqi humanitarian workers.
4/27/07 Chechnya Shatoi 17 0 Islamic fundamentalists shoot down a Russian helicopter, killing all seventeen aboard.
4/27/07 Iraq Kirkuk 1 0 A human rights activist is successfully assassinated by the Religion of Peace.
4/27/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 70-year-old Buddhist man is shot off of his motorcycle by Islamic 'rebels.'
4/27/07 Sudan Gnaya 4 5 Four Christians, including a boy, are shot to death by radical Muslims after showing a 'Jesus' film in a village.
4/27/07 Iraq Hit 10 20 A suicide truck bomber takes out ten Iraqis.
4/27/07 Pakistan North Waziristan 4 0 Four people are killed when explosives level a house in the middle of the night.
4/26/07 Afghanistan Mihtarlam 1 0 A civilian is killed in a Taliban bombing.
4/26/07 Afghanistan Barmal 1 1 A rocket attack by religious extremists leaves at least one civilian dead.
4/26/07 Afghanistan Barmal 2 0 Two civilians are shot to death by suspected Islamic militants.
4/26/07 Afghanistan Ghazni 2 0 The Taliban murder two government officials.
4/26/07 Lebanon Sidon 2 0 A 12-year-old is among two people kidnapped and murdered in ugly fashion by sectarian rivals.
4/26/07 Iraq Mosul 3 59 Islamic militants set off several bombs, killing at least three civilians.
4/26/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 2 0 Two men are gunned down by Islamic militants at an Internet café.
4/26/07 Iraq Baghdad 35 19 Jihadis bomb a university, killing eight people, and murder twenty-seven others in sectarian attacks.
4/25/07 Afghanistan Paktika 7 1 Seven Afghan soldiers are killed when the Taliban use a roadside bomb against their vehicle.
4/25/07 Iraq Mosul 2 2 Fundamentalists attack a bakery, killing the owner and an assistant.
4/25/07 Iraq Baghdad 24 10 A Jihad bombing and several sectarian attacks leave two dozen dead.
4/25/07 Somalia Mogadishu 7 0 Somali Islamists set off a car bomb near a hotel, killing seven innocents.
4/25/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 3 0 Two Shia brothers are among three killed in a vicious attack by Sunnis.
4/24/07 Afghanistan Herat 4 2 Four Afghans are killed when religious extremists ambush their vehicle.
4/24/07 Iraq Baqubah 8 17 Eight people are killed by Islamic terrorists.
4/24/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 0 Nineteen victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found throughout the city.
4/23/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamists shoot and attempt to behead a 40-year-old Buddhist man.
4/23/07 Iraq Mosul 10 20 A suicide bomber rams his car into the offices of a political party, slaughtering ten civilians.
4/23/07 Iraq Baqubah 10 23 A suicide bomber kills ten Iraqi policemen and injures two dozen more.
4/23/07 Iraq Ramadi 19 30 Coordinated car bombs take out nineteen innocent lives in the name of Allah.
4/23/07 Iraq Baghdad 23 14 A suicidal Sunni attacks a restaurant, blasting eight civilians to death. Fifteen victims of sectarian violence are found elsewhere.
4/23/07 Iraq Diyala 9 20 A Fedayeen suicide bomber attacks an American convoy, killing nine soldiers.
4/23/07 Somalia Mogadishu 4 1 A woman is among the dead, and a baby among the wounded, as Somali Islamists continue to pour on the misery.
4/22/07 Iraq Saidiya 7 42 Jihadis blast seven Iraqi civilians to Allah with a car bomb.
4/22/07 Afghanistan Khost 10 40 Ten civilians are murdered by a suicide bomber at a market.
4/22/07 Iraq Baghdad 13 95 Fedayeen suicide bombers kill 13 people, mostly civilians.
4/22/07 Thailand Pattani 1 1 Radical Muslims gun down a husband and injure his wife.
4/22/07 Afghanistan Ghazni 1 0 An Afghan intelligence officer is invited into a home, then kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic extremists.
4/22/07 Afghanistan Zabul 2 5 Religious extremists bomb a vehicle, killing two Afghan police.
4/22/07 Pakistan Mastung 3 0 Three children, agest 2, 5 and 12, are killed when Muslim terrorists throw explosives into a home.
4/22/07 India Doda 3 0 Lashkar-e-Toiba militants attack and kill three Hizb-ul-Mujahideen who were planning to surrender.
4/22/07 Iraq Iskandariya 2 0 A young girl is among two targets taken out by Islamic gunmen.
4/22/07 Iraq Bashika 23 0 Twenty-three members of a minority religious sect are kidnapped on a bus, taken to a wall and shot to death by the Religion of Peace.
4/21/07 Iraq Kirkuk 4 0 Holy Warriors storm a family home and murder two children and their parents.
4/21/07 Thailand Pattani 3 1 Three Thai soldiers are killed when local religious extremists set off a bomb.
4/21/07 Iraq Khalis 8 0 Eight tortured bodies are found, four of who are beheaded in the Islamic tradition.
4/21/07 Iraq Baghdad 13 5 A bomb on a bus is among at least two Mujahideen attacks that leave thirteen civilians dead.
4/20/07 Iraq Baghdad 25 27 Two children are among two dozen Iraqis killed by sectarian Jihadis in various attacks.
4/20/07 India Rajouri 2 0 Islamic terrorists kidnap and behead two Hindu civilians collecting firewood.
4/19/07 Somalia Mogadishu 12 20 Islamic militias mortar a crowded market, killing a dozen civilians.
4/19/07 Iraq Baghdad 26 4 Three Jihad attacks leave twenty-six bodies, nearly all civilians, including a teenage girl.
4/19/07 Philippines Parang 7 0 Seven Christian laborers are kidnapped and beheaded by Moro Islamists.
4/19/07 Iraq Baghdad 11 34 A Fedayeen suicide bomber drives his truck into a fuel tanker at a gas station, killing eleven innocent people.
4/19/07 India Baramulla 1 0 The Mujahideen force their way into a home and then shoot a civilian resident to death.
4/19/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two Buddhist teeanage girls are shot to death by Islamists.
4/19/07 Somalia Mogadishu 10 71 At least ten people, mostly civilians are killed when a Muslim sucide bomber detonates his truck near an Ethiopian army base.
4/19/07 Iraq Shirqat 4 0 Islamic terrorists set a car on fire, with four people inside.
4/18/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 44-year-old civilian is shot off of his motorcycle by Muslim radicals.
4/18/07 Iraq Baghdad 192 239 Sunnis slaughter nearly two-hundred Iraqi civilians, mostly Shia women and children in multiple bombing attacks. Some victims were burned alive in vehicles.
4/18/07 Turkey Malatya 3 3 Three Christians working at a Bible distribution company are brutally tortured and murdered by local Islamists. All three had their throats cut.
4/18/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamic terrorists shoot a 52-year-old civilian to death.
4/18/07 Iraq Baghdad 22 0 Twenty-two bodies are found here and elsewhere, some of which were beheaded by Islamic radicals.
4/18/07 Somalia Mogadishu 3 6 Islamic militias rain down mortars over a residential area, killing three civilians.
4/17/07 Iraq Hawija 3 4 Jihadis car-bomb a gas station, killing three patrons.
4/17/07 Nigeria Kano 13 0 A woman is among thirteen people torn apart by Muslim fundamentalists in a mob attack.
4/17/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 5 0 The Taliban bomb a UN vehicle, killing five occupants.
4/17/07 Afghanistan Heart 4 3 Four children are killed by a bomb planted by religious extremists at their school.
4/17/07 Iraq Ramadi 17 0 Seventeen people are kidnapped and brutally executed by Islamic terrorists.
4/17/07 Iraq Abu Saida 2 5 Muslim gunmen attack a displaced family, killing two members.
4/17/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Muslim radicals kill two Buddhist plantation workers with a shotgun, then cut the head off of one.
4/17/07 Sudan Sires Umm al-Qura 73 12 Government troops of the Islamic republic massacre over seventy African villagers in at least eleven separate attacks over three days.
4/17/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A Buddhist police officer is gunned down by Muslim radicals.
4/17/07 Iraq Baghdad 15 16 A university professor is among fifteen people gunned down in at least three Jihad attacks.
4/16/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 Islamists murder a civilian in a drive-by attack ouside a tea shop.
4/16/07 Iraq Baghdad 14 7 A female university student is among fourteen people murdered in separate Jihad attacks.
4/16/07 Pakistan Kohat-Peshawar 1 2 A man is shot to death by Islamic terrorists in an attack on a highway.
4/16/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A town mayor is gunned down in a Muslim terror attack outside his home.
4/16/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 3 Ten Islamic militants open fire on a Thai army base, killing one soldier.
4/16/07 Afghanistan Kunduz 10 32 A Fedayeen suicide bomber kills ten Afghans and injures another thirty.
4/16/07 Iraq Diyala 1 1 Fundamentalists kill a barber in his shop.
4/16/07 Pakistan Badh Beer 3 4 Three children are killed, and four others injured when militants toss a grenade into a family home.
4/16/07 India Doda 1 1 Two civilians are abducted by the Mujahideen, who kill one in captivity.
4/16/07 India Pulwama 1 0 Lashkar-e-Toiba militants kill a guard near a railway track.
4/16/07 Iraq Mosul 23 4 Two college professors and a 17-year-old boy are two dozen Iraqis murdered in four separate attacks
4/15/07 Algeria Ait Mahmoud 2 0 Two Berber civilians are shot to death by five Islamic militants.
4/15/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 70-year-old Buddhist man is shot three times in the torso by Muslim radicals, who then set fire to his body.
4/15/07 India Pulwama 1 0 A Christian church worker is kidnapped, brutally tortured and then beheaded by the Mujahideen.
4/15/07 Afghanistan Spin Boldak 4 1 A suicide bomber kills several Afghans in an attack on a highway.
4/15/07 India Munawajji 2 1 Two civilians are murdered in a shooting attack on their vehicle by the Mujahideen.
4/15/07 Iraq Baghdad 44 43 Several attacks by Jihadis, including three car bombings, leave over forty Iraqi civilians dead.
4/15/07 Iraq Baghdad 15 50 A coordinated bomb attack on a market leave about fifteen patrons dead and another fifty in agony.
4/15/07 Iraq Mosul 4 16 Four people are killed when suicidal Sunnis drive bomb-laden trucks into a building.
4/14/07 Philippines Panamao 3 10 A child is among three killed when Moro Islamic Front terrorists attack a military camp.
4/14/07 Iraq Karbala 47 224 Sixteen children are among 47 Shias slaughtered by a suicidal Sunni bomber at a bus station near a crowded market.
4/14/07 Iraq Baghdad 35 50 A suicide car bomber kills thirty-five Iraqi commuters on a downtown bridge.
4/14/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Islamic terrorists gun down two civilians riding a motorcycle.
4/14/07 Iraq Baghdad 29 19 Twenty-nine people are murdered by sectarian Jihadis in at least three attacks around the country.
4/14/07 Algeria Boumerdes 4 2 Four Algerian security are killed in an ambush by Islamic fundamentalists.
4/14/07 Afghanistan Khost 8 6 Eight Afghan police are murdered by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
4/13/07 India Batmalu 1 1 Hizb-ul-Mujahideen opens fire on a policeman in a brutal attack that also injures a young girl.
4/13/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 19-year-old boy is shot to death by Muslim radicals.
4/12/07 Philippines Indanan 2 10 Abu Sayyaf gunmen kill two Filipino soldiers.
4/12/07 Pakistan Chardiwar 5 6 Sunni gunmen raid a Shia village, killing five civilians.
4/12/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two civilians are killed from stray bullets as Islamic militias ambush government troops.
4/12/07 Iraq Baghdad 8 23 A Fedayeen suicide bomber detonates in a parliament building, killing eight fellow Iraqis.
4/12/07 Iraq Baghdad 10 30 Jihadis bomb a bridge, killing ten Iraqi commuters.
4/12/07 Iraq Kirkuk 6 19 Holy warriors bomb a minibus, killing six passengers.
4/12/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 9 Sectarian violence claims the lives of nearly twenty people around the capital.
4/12/07 Pakistan Miranshah 1 3 One civilian is killed when militants fire a rocket into a house.
4/12/07 Somalia Mogadishu 52 165 Islamic militias shoot rockets and mortars into populated areas in a running battle against the government.
4/11/07 Iraq Baghdad 34 8 A teacher is among thirty-four people murderd by Islamic terrorists in at least five attacks around the country.
4/11/07 Somalia Mogadishu 3 0 Three people riding a minibus are shot full of holes in an attack by Islamic gunmen.
4/11/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 9 Nine civilians are wounded by a suicide bomber. Two Canadians are killed in a separate bombing.
4/11/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 26-year-old Buddhist woman is burned alive by the Religion of Peace.
4/11/07 Thailand Yala 2 0 A 19-year-old Buddhist man and his mother are gunned down by radical Muslims.
4/11/07 Pakistan Sadda 27 30 Sectarian clashes between Sunni and Shia leave at least twenty-seven dead.
4/11/07 Algeria Algiers 33 222 Thirty-three people are killed by Islamic fundamentalists in three separate suicide bombings.
4/11/07 Bangladesh Jhalakathi 1 0 Jama'atul Mujahideen is suspected to be behind the assassination of a prosecutor.
4/11/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 50-year-old man is murdered by Muslim gunmen.
4/11/07 Iraq Mosul 2 0 A woman journalist and her husband are kidnapped and brutally murdered. Their bodies are set on fire.
4/11/07 Sudan Abujogh Market 40 25 Arab militias massacre forty African villagers in an attack with heavy machine-guns.
4/11/07 Pakistan Kurram 3 11 Separate missile attacks on three villages by Islamic radicals kill at least three civilians.
4/10/07 India Srinagar 1 10 A shopkeeper is killed when Mujahideen terrorists toss a grenade into his store.
4/10/07 Iraq Muqdadiyah 21 33 A woman with explosives hidden beneath her abaya wades into a crowd of police recruits and slaughters sixteen. A second bombing kills five more.
4/10/07 Iraq Baghdad 6 11 Six people are murdered when Sunni radicals set off a bomb near a university.
4/10/07 Iraq Baghdad 1 17 One 6-year-old boy is killed and seventeen other children and teachers injured when Jihadis send a rocket into a basketball court.
4/10/07 Iraq Hilla 2 4 Islamic terrorists plant a bomb in a home, netting six casualties from the same family.
4/10/07 Iraq Fallujah 10 1 Five victims of sectarian violence are found here, and five others elsewhere.
4/10/07 Pakistan Shingak 1 0 Sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace claims another life.
4/10/07 Pakistan Balishtkhel 3 0 Fighting between Sunnis and shi leaves three people dead.
4/10/07 Pakistan Pir Qayyum 3 0 Three people lose their lives in sectarian violence.
4/10/07 Pakistan Ibrahimzai 1 0 A man is killed in fighting between sectarian factions.
4/10/07 Morocco Casablanca 1 1 A police officer is killed by a suicide bomber.
4/9/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A Buddhist ice cream vendor is gunned down by Muslim terrorists.
4/9/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 34-year-old Buddhist man is killed in a drive-by shooting by Islamic radicals.
4/9/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 55-year-old truck driver's body is ripped in half by a Muslim bomb.
4/9/07 Iraq Baghdad 17 The bodies of seventeen victims of sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace are found.
4/9/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 Muslims gun down a Buddhist civilian in a drive-by.
4/9/07 Afghanistan Khakraiz 1 0 A civilian is killed in a Taliban attack.
4/9/07 Afghanistan Zabul 4 19 Religious extremists ambush a military convoy, killing four Afghan soldiers.
4/8/07 Iraq Mahmoudiyah 18 23 Freedom fighters bomb a hospital, killing eighteen Iraqis.
4/8/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A rubber plantation worker is shot to death by Islamists.
4/8/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamic radicals shoot and kill a civilian outside his home.
4/8/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 6 0 Six Canadians are killed by Taliban extremists in a roadside blast.
4/8/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 The Taliban beheads a kidnapped Afghan journalist.
4/8/07 Pakistan Pewer 4 0 Four Shias are shot to death by radical Sunnis.
4/8/07 Pakistan Chardiwar 2 0 Two Shias are gunned down by Sunni terrorists.
4/8/07 Pakistan Mallikhel 2 0 Sunnis murder two Shias in a sectarian attack.
4/8/07 Pakistan Karman 1 0 A Shia civilian is shot to death by Sunnis.
4/8/07 Pakistan Boshera 5 0 Three women and two children are killed in sectarian violence.
4/8/07 Iraq Baghdad 24 21 A suicide car bomber is one of several Jihad attacks that leave two-dozen Iraqis dead.
4/8/07 Pakistan Wana 2 0 A tribal leader and his deputy are shot to death by al-Qaeda backed militants.
4/8/07 Pakistan Sadda 2 0 Two Sunnis are killed by radical Shia gunmen.
4/7/07 India Baramulla 1 0 A civilian is abducted and murdered by the Mujahideen.
4/7/07 Pakistan Parachinar 10 83 Sunni gunmen open up on a crowd of Shias leaving a mosque. Ten people are killed in the ensuing firefight.
4/7/07 Iraq Baghdad 15 5 Shootings and bombings leave at least fifteen dead.
4/7/07 Iraq Baqubah 27 2 Twenty-seven victims of sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace are found around the city.
4/7/07 Algeria Zaccar Forest 9 7 Nine Algerian soldiers are ambushed and killed by Islamic fundamentalists.
4/7/07 Philippines Parang 10 2 Ten people, including a civilian, are killed in an ambush by suspected Abu Sayyaf terrorists.
4/7/07 Afghanistan Farah 7 4 The Taliban murder seven Afghans trying to clear land mines.
4/6/07 Iraq Tal Afar 19 5 A child is among nineteen people found dead here and in the capital following sectarian terror attacks.
4/6/07 Afghanistan Kabul 6 4 A suicide bomber takes out five civilians and the police officer who tried to stop him.
4/6/07 Saudi Arabia Medina 1 2 A police officer is killed in an attack by an al-Qaeda suspect.
4/6/07 Iraq Ramadi 25 30 Freedom fighters use a chlorine truck bomb to kill twenty-five Iraqis, mostly civilians.
4/6/07 Yemen Amran 0 30 Radicals rampage through a rival mosque, spraying gasoline and setting people on fire.
4/5/07 Iraq Diyala 22 0 At least two women are among twenty-two people kidnapped and either shot to death or beheaded by the Religion of Peace.
4/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 13 0 Gunmen kill thirteen civilians, including a child, in separate attacks.
4/5/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamic extremists murder a 52-year-old man inside his home.
4/5/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 A 51-year-old man is ambushed and killed by Islamic terrorists.
4/5/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two civilians are shot to death by Muslim radicals as they are traveling in a car.
4/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 1 0 A mother of three is kidnapped and shot to death by Sunni terrorists.
4/5/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 1 7 An Afghan police officer is killed when the Taliban bomb his vehicle.
4/5/07 Afghanistan Zabul 5 0 Religious extremists kill five Afghans guarding a road.
4/5/07 Afghanistan Khost 1 3 Religious extremists shoot an Afghan interpretor to death.
4/5/07 Iraq Basra 5 1 Iran is suspected to be behind the death of four British soldiers and a civilian in a bomb attack.
4/5/07 Thailand Yala 0 16 Radical Muslims bomb a rival mosque, injuring sixteen people.
4/4/07 Algeria Biskra 3 7 An al-Qaeda attack leaves three Algerian soldiers dead and seven more injured.
4/4/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Islamic radicals open up with automatic weapons on two men leaving a tea shop.
4/4/07 Iraq Kirkuk 11 0 Freedom fighters murder eleven power plant workers.
4/4/07 Iraq Hilla 3 0 Two people are beheaded and a prostitute is stabbed to death by religious fundamentalists.
4/4/07 India Tral 1 0 A woman succumbs to injuries following a Mujahideen attack.
4/3/07 Iraq Baqubah 17 0 Jihadis kill seventeen people in attacks in three different cities.
4/3/07 Iraq Baghdad 15 2 Sectarian attacks at a university and elsewhere leave fifteen Iraqis dead.
4/3/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Islamists shoot at two men riding a motorcycle, killing one.
4/3/07 Thailand Pattani 3 0 Muslim radicals ambush and kill three Thai policemen.
4/2/07 Pakistan Shalobar 2 9 Two people, including a student, are killed by gunfire during a sectarian clash.
4/2/07 Pakistan Shin Warsak 2 0 Foreign militants storm a local residence, killing a man and a 15-year-old boy.
4/2/07 Iraq Kirkuk 13 167 Radical Sunnis bomb a school, killing thirteen, including eight schoolgirls and a baby. Nearly two-hundred others are wounded.
4/2/07 Iraq Baqubah 21 0 Twenty-one people are abducted and murdered by Jihadis.
4/2/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 3 2 Religious extremists attack a police checkpoint, killing three officers.
4/2/07 Iraq Baghdad 20 15 At least three separate Jihad attacks leave twenty people dead.
4/2/07 Iraq Sab al-Bor 1 0 An 11-year-old boy has his throat slit by al-Qaeda.
4/2/07 Iraq Khalis 3 20 A suicide bomber targets a restaurant, killing at least three patrons.
4/1/07 Afghanistan Mihtarlam 5 6 Three children are among five civilians blown up by a suicidal religious extremist.
4/1/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 34-year-old Buddhist is shot off his motorcycle by militant Muslims while riding to work.
4/1/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A truck driver is shot to death by Islamic radicals.
4/1/07 Afghanistan Musa Qala 3 0 Three villagers are abducted and hanged by the Taliban.
4/1/07 India Baramulla 1 0 Jihadis shoot a politician to death.
4/1/07 Sudan Um Baru 5 0 Muslim gunmen shoot five AU peacekeepers to death in an unprovoked attack.
4/1/07 Iraq Baghdad 37 22 Islamic terrorists rack up three-dozen dead Iraqis in various attacks around the country.
3/31/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 22 Freedom fighters car bomb a hospital, killing five Iraqis. Fourteen bodies are found elsewhere.
3/31/07 Chad Tiero and Marena 200 0 Janjaweed militias surround two African villages and fire into them, killing at least two-hundred Africans, including women and children.
3/31/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A retired teacher is shot to death by radical Muslims.
3/31/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 An elderly Buddhist couple is murdered in their store by Islamic gunmen posing as customers.
3/31/07 Sudan Nyala 23 0 Twenty-three villagers are massacred by Arab militias.
3/31/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 4 Islamists fire mortars at the presidential palace, killing at least one person.
3/31/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 7 4 Seven Afghan cops are killed in a brutal ambush by Taliban extremists.
3/31/07 Iraq Kirkuk 8 2 Four brothers are among eight civilian workers murdered by Jihadis in an ambush on their bus.
3/31/07 Iraq Hilla 4 23 Four people are killed when Muslim terrorists detonate a car bomb along a city street.
3/31/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 29-year-old man is shot to death by radical Muslims.
3/31/07 Sudan Bolbol Jazou 30 0 Thirty villagers are reported dead in the second town to be attacked by Janjaweed militia.
3/30/07 Iraq Suwayra 9 0 Nine Iraqis are bound and executed by Islamic terrorists here and at Tal Afar.
3/30/07 Pakistan Shen Warsak 2 0 Two children are killed when Uzbeki militants fire a rocket into their home.
3/30/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 5 1 Religious fundamentalists attack a government checkpoint, killing five Afghans.
3/30/07 Iraq Mosul 44 0 Twenty-five victims of sectarian violence are found in Mosul, a dozen in Baghdad, and seven in Baqubah.
3/30/07 Thailand Pattani 1 4 A Buddhist policeman is killed in a Muslim bombing.
3/29/07 Iraq Baghdad 41 46 At least three Jihad attacks leave more than forty civilians dead.
3/29/07 Pakistan Kharian 2 7 An elderly suicide bomber wanders into a group of soliders, resting after training, and kills two.
3/29/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 12 Islamic militias mortar a mosque, killing two children.
3/29/07 Iraq Khalis 53 103 Sunni terrorists use multiple, coordinated car bombs to slaughter over fifty Iraqi Shias.
3/29/07 Iraq Mahmudiya 5 20 An eye doctor is gunned down on his way to work, as Islamic terrorists also kill four other innocents with a car bomb.
3/29/07 India Rajouri 5 4 Five Hindus working on a remote road are brutally murdered by Islamists.
3/29/07 Iraq Baghdad 82 138 Suicide bombers strike a marketplace, massacring over eighty shoppers and leaving more than a hundred others in agony.
3/28/07 Afghanistan Kabul 4 12 A suicide bomber kills four people at a market.
3/28/07 Pakistan Tank 2 4 Two people are killed in a militant attack.
3/28/07 Algeria Kabylie 3 0 Three Algerian security forces are attacked and killed by Islamic fundamentalists.
3/28/07 Iraq Tal Afar 50 70 Sectarian killings net over fifty Iraqis, mostly reprisals for the previous day's bombing.
3/28/07 Iraq Suwayra 5 0 Five people are kidnapped and killed, including one by beheading.
3/28/07 Thailand Pattani 1 1 A 35-year-old Buddhist man is murdered by Islamic gunmen in an attack that also injures his wife.
3/28/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 Radical Muslims shoot an elderly Buddhist man twice in the chest. He dies on his way to the hospital.
3/28/07 India Rajouri 1 0 A civilian is beheaded in his village by the Mujahideen.
3/28/07 Iraq Baghdad 29 55 A chlorine bombing is among four Jihad attacks that leave two dozen Iraqis dead.
3/27/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 15 At least nineteen people are killed in sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace.
3/27/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 2 Islamic militants kill a Pakistani engineer and injure two Afghans in a shooting ambush.
3/27/07 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 4 4 A religious extremist blows himself up in a police station, killing four people.
3/27/07 Afghanistan Bajaur 5 0 Islamic terrorists kill four Pakistani intelligence agents on a remote highway.
3/27/07 Iraq Ramadi 17 32 A suicidal Sunni murders seventeen people in a restaurant.
3/27/07 Iraq Diwaniya 6 0 A half-dozen Iraqis are murdered in Jihad attacks.
3/27/07 Iraq Tal Afar 152 347 Freedom fighters use twin truck bombs at two markets to massacre over one-hundred and fifty Iraqis. Afterwards, they attack ambulances carrying the wounded.
3/26/07 Yemen Saada 2 0 Two Western students (British and French) are killed by radical Shiites.
3/26/07 Pakistan Tank 2 13 Militants attack a police station, killing two security staff.
3/26/07 Iraq Fallujah 3 0 Two women and a 14-year-old boy are brutally murdered by Islamic insurgents.
3/26/07 Iraq Baghdad 21 8 At least three separate Jihad attacks leave nearly two-dozen Iraqis dead.
3/26/07 Iraq Kirkuk 2 0 Two elderly nuns, aged 79 and 85, are stabbed to death in their home.
3/26/07 Thailand Pattani 1 1 Militant Muslims shoot two Buddhist electricians, killing one
3/25/07 Iraq Baghdad 27 33 At least twenty-seven people are killed by sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace.
3/25/07 Iraq Baqubah 7 0 A suicide bomber is one of at least two attacks that leaves seven Iraqis dead.
3/25/07 India Tral 1 0 A police officer is kidnapped and strangled by the Mujahideen.
3/25/07 Afghanistan Maidan Wardak 2 2 The Taliban attack a police station, killing two Afghan officers.
3/24/07 Sudan Sirba 3 15 Three African villagers are killed by Arab militias in a deadly raid.
3/24/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two Buddhist policemen are shot to death at point-blank range at a market by Muslim radicals.
3/24/07 Iraq Baghdad 36 26 A suicide truck bomber kills rival Muslims in a neighborhood, as sixteen bodies are found elsewhere.
3/24/07 Iraq Haswa 11 45 Eleven people at a rival mosque are killed by a suicidal Muslim blasting his way to paradise.
3/24/07 Iraq Tal Afar 10 3 A Fedayeen bomber blows himself up in a market, killing eight shoppers at a pastry shop.
3/24/07 Iraq Fallujah 12 0 Sunni terrorists murder a dozen people.
3/24/07 Chechnya Grozny 1 3 A Russian is killed in a Mujahideen roadside bomb attack.
3/24/07 Iraq Baghdad 9 0 Nine Iraqi children playing soccer are deliberately machine-gunned to death by Sunni terrorists.
3/23/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 8 Islamic insurgents attack Ethiopian troops. At least two people are killed.
3/23/07 Iraq Baghdad 9 15 Nine people are killed during an assassination attempt on the country's vice president by Islamic terrorists.
3/23/07 Iraq Baghdad 6 19 Six people are killed in a Jihad car bombing at a used car lot.
3/23/07 Iraq al Bu Ajeel 4 0 An infant is among four members of a family murdered inside their home by Muslim gunmen.
3/23/07 Iraq Mosul 4 0 Two teenagers are among four people slain by Islamic radicals.
3/23/07 Somalia Mogadishu 11 0 Somali Islamists shoot down a cargo plane with a rocket, killing eleven Belarus civilians.
3/23/07 Pal. Auth. Gaza 1 3 A 2-year-old child is killed in the crossfire when Fatah and Hamas open up on each other.
3/23/07 Iraq Baghdad 26 2 A mother and daughter are among two dozen people murdered by sectarian Jihadis.
3/23/07 India Shopian 1 0 A 16-year-old girl is shot and killed by the Mujahideen.
3/23/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 5 5 In three separate attacks, religious extremists ambush Afghan police, killing at least five.
3/23/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 17 4 Taliban extremists ambush a supply convoy, killing two truck drivers and fifteen security guards.
3/22/07 Iraq Baghdad 28 5 Twenty-eight victims of sectarian violence are killed in various attacks.
3/22/07 Somalia Kismayo 1 3 A woman is killed in a grenade attack.
3/22/07 India Kupwara 1 0 A policeman dies of injuries suffered in a Mujahideen attack two days earlier.
3/22/07 Iraq Kirkuk 3 7 Two Jihad attacks leave three civilians dead.
3/21/07 Iraq Baghdad 33 0 Thrity-three people are killed in sectarian violence within the Religion of Peace.
3/21/07 Nigeria Gombe 1 0 A female Christian teacher is attacked and killed by her students, who accused her of 'desecrating' the Qur'an.
3/21/07 Iraq al-Madaen 8 18 Jihadis slam two mortars into a residential area, killing eight people.
3/20/07 Somalia Mogadishu 6 36 Four Somali and two Ethiopian soldiers are killed by Islamists, who drag the bodies of several through the streets.
3/20/07 Iraq al-Touz 2 0 Two brothers are killed by Muslim terrorists.
3/20/07 Somalia Mogadishu 3 0 Three civilians are killed when Islamic militias mortar a neighborhood.
3/20/07 Iraq Baghdad 43 36 Forty-three victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace lose their lives in at least three separate attacks.
3/20/07 Afghanistan Zabul 1 0 An Afghan driver's decapitated body is found a week after he was killed by the Taliban.
3/20/07 Iraq Mosul 12 40 A suicide bomber is one of two Sunni extremists who kill innocent people in separate attacks.
3/20/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 2 Muslim radicals murder a Thai soldier and injure two others in a shooting attack.
3/19/07 Thailand Pattani 3 3 Three Buddhist women are shot to death by militant Muslims while riding to work at a farm.
3/19/07 Iraq Baghdad 4 25 Sunni radicals plant a bomb in a Shia mosque, killing four worshippers.
3/19/07 Pakistan Jacobabad 1 0 A woman is killed by her brother for having 'illicit' relations outside of marriage.
3/19/07 Iraq Kirkuk 12 39 Jihadis massacre a dozen Iraqis with car bombs.
3/19/07 Pakistan Tank 1 0 A policeman is shot to death by Taliban militants.
3/19/07 Pakistan South Waziristan 2 6 Two children are killed in crossfire between rival Islamist groups.
3/19/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 5 A 15-year-old boy is killed by a suicide bomber.
3/18/07 Somalia Kismayo 1 0 Islamic insurgents assassinate a police chief.
3/18/07 Thailand Songkhla 1 0 A Buddhist man is shot off of his motorcycle by Muslim radicals.
3/18/07 Thailand Songkhla 2 2 Two Buddhist factory workers, a mother and daughter, are shot to death by Islamic terrorists.
3/18/07 Iraq Ramadi 9 0 Nine Iraqi policemen are tortured and then decapitated by Sunni militants.
3/18/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 18 Two people are killed when Islamic militias bomb a restaurant.
3/18/07 Iraq Baghdad 6 30 Sunni terrorists detonate a car bomb in a Shia neighborhood, killing six residents.
3/18/07 Paskistan Mardan 1 0 Religious extremists gun down a watchman, then set fire to four music shops.
3/18/07 Iraq Iskandariya 2 0 A woman and her daughter are killed when Freedom Fighters lob a mortar into their home.
3/18/07 Iraq Mosul 4 0 Four people are kidnapped and killed by Islamic terrorists.
3/17/07 Iraq Mahmudiya 2 0 Two people are tortured to death by Islamic terrorists.
3/17/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 0 Sunni-Shia sectarian violence leaves at least nineteen dead.
3/17/07 Afghanistan Farah 2 0 Two policemen are killed during an ambush on their convoy by religious extremists.
3/17/07 Thailand Songkhla 3 7 Muslim terrorists attack a boarding school with bullets and bombs, killing three children and injuring at least seven more.
3/17/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 2 Two children are murdered by a suicide bomber.
3/16/07 Somalia Mogadishu 7 1 Islamic militias bomb a house, killing seven people, including four children.
3/16/07 Iraq Fallujah 8 350 Freedom fighters unleash suicide chlorine bombers on a populace, killing at least eight and injuring hundreds.
3/16/07 Afghanistan Kabul 1 0 The Taliban execute the captured Afghan driver of an Italian journalist.
3/16/07 India Baramulla 1 7 The Mujahideen throw a bomb into a bus stop, killing one person.
3/16/07 Pal. Auth. Gaza 1 0 A government official is killed by a Hamas gunmen.
3/16/07 Iraq Mosul 4 0 Terrorists slay two men and two women, but leave two infants alive beside the bodies.
3/16/07 Iraq Baghdad 12 0 Twelve people are killed by sectarian Jihadis in at least two attacks.
3/15/07 Iraq Iskandariya 6 23 Jihadis kill six passengers in a car-bomb attack on a bus.
3/15/07 Iraq Baghdad 8 25 A Fedayeen suicide bomber takes out eight Iraqis and injures two dozen more.
3/15/07 Iraq Mosul 4 11 Two separate Jihad attacks leave four people dead.
3/15/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A Muslim terrorist shoots an office worker three times in the back before fleeing.
3/14/07 Afghanistan Khost 5 38 A suicide bomber wearing a Muslim prayer cap strikes near a police patrol, killing five other people.
3/14/07 Afghanistan Faryab 1 1 Taliban militants shoot a police officer off of a motorbike.
3/14/07 Thailand Yala 1 11 Islamists bomb a moderate mosque, killing at least one person.
3/14/07 Thailand Yala 2 11 Radicals throw a bomb into a coffee shop, killing two innocents.
3/14/07 Iraq Baqubah 4 0 Four decapitated heads are found.
3/14/07 Iraq Tuz Khurmato 10 15 A suicide bomber yells, "Allah Akbar," then blasts the life out of ten people at a market.
3/14/07 Iraq Hillah 3 0 Three off-duty policemen are brutally gunned down by Islamic terrorists.
3/14/07 Thailand Yala 9 1 Islamists bomb a bus full of Buddhists, then shoot all of the victims at close range. Two teenage girls are among those massacred.
3/14/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 A human rights activist is gunned down while drinking tea at a shop.
3/14/07 Iraq Mosul 2 4 Jihadis kill a man and his young child with mortars.
3/14/07 Iraq Baghdad 17 0 Freedom fighters murder seventeen Iraqis.
3/13/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 3 The 12-year-old son of the president is killed in a mortar attack by Islamic militias.
3/13/07 Afghanistan Spin Boldak 3 6 Three civilians are blown to bits by a suicide bomber, who detonates in a crowd of people.
3/13/07 Afghanistan Lashkar Gah 1 6 A suicide bomber murders at least one other person.
3/13/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 2 1 Two people, including a teacher, are gunned down in separate sectarian attacks.
3/13/07 Somalia Sheik Sufi 3 1 Islamic militias fire shells into a neighborhood, killing three civilians.
3/13/07 Iraq Baghdad 30 7 At least thrity people are killed in six separate bombing and shooting attacks by Islamic terrorists.
3/13/07 Pakistan Borianwala 2 0 A young woman and her lover are gunned down by her father and brothers in an honor killing.
3/13/07 Yemen Saada 12 0 Twelve Yemeni soldiers are killed in a clash with radicals Shias.
3/13/07 Iraq Mosul 18 4 Eighteen victims of sectarian violence are found over a 48-hour period.
3/12/07 Thailand Pattani 3 10 Islamists set off a bomb, injuring ten people, behead a migrant worker and shoot two more to death.
3/12/07 Afghanistan Bakwa 9 1 Religious extremists blow up an Afghan police convoy, killing nine officers.
3/12/07 Pakistan Belod 3 0 Two men and a woman are shot and stoned to death for adultery by the Lashkar-Islam group.
3/12/07 Iraq Baghdad 15 0 Fifteen victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found around the city.
3/12/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 3 At least one person is killed when an Islamist tosses a bomb into a restaurant.
3/12/07 Iraq Iskandariya 2 2 Jihadis mortar a soccer field, killing two boys.
3/12/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 1 0 A Shia rickshaw driver is gunned down by Sunni radicals.
3/12/07 Pakistan Jandola 1 0 al-Qaeda militants kidnap and behead a civilian.
3/12/07 Iraq Kirkuk 4 0 Four firemen are killed by Islamic terrorists in a bombing.
3/12/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Islamic militias attack Ethiopian troops. A boy and a woman are killed in the crossfire.
3/11/07 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two Buddhists, a brother and sister, are murdered by radical Muslims as they are returning from their rubber plantation.
3/11/07 Iraq Baghdad 10 8 A suicide bomber kills ten fellow human beings.
3/11/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 60-year-old rubber tapper is shot to death by Islamists.
3/11/07 Iraq Karbala 32 25 A suicidal Sunni targets a truck carrying Shia pilgrims, managing to murder over thirty.
3/11/07 Afghanistan Khost 4 0 Four policemen are killed in a terrorist bombing.
3/11/07 Somalia Mogadisuh 4 0 Four civilians are gunned down in separate attacks.
3/11/07 Iraq Baghdad 20 0 Twenty victims of sectarian hatred are found executed in various parts of the city.
3/11/07 Iraq Mussayab 5 7 Jihadis kill five people in two separate attacks.
3/10/07 India Tral 2 0 Two civilians are killed when fleeing militants use them as human shields.
3/10/07 Pakistan North Waziristan 1 0 A Pakistani solider is shot to death by Islamic militants at a checkpoint.
3/10/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 1 1 A government employee is killed by radical Sunnis while buying milk at a grocery.
3/10/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 1 A bomb kills one person at a pasta factory.
3/10/07 Afghanistan Arghastan 8 2 Religious extremists cross over from Pakistan and kill eight Afghan border guards.
3/10/07 Iraq Baghdad 27 37 Freedom fighters murder over two-dozen Iraqis in at least five separate attacks.
3/10/07 Iraq Kirkuk 3 55 Jihadis rocket a bus station, killing at least three innocents.
3/10/07 India Srinagar 1 2 One member of a security patrol is killed when the Mujahideen hurl a grenade at them.
3/10/07 Pakistan Dwatoi 1 0 A Pakistani soldier is killed by radical militants along the Afghan border.
3/10/07 Thailand Yala 2 0 A Buddhist man and wife are brutally slain by Muslim gunmen as they are driving home from market.
3/9/07 Iraq Baghdad 10 0 Ten victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found murdered..
3/9/07 Pakistan North Waziristan 1 0 An Afghan refugee is executed by Taliban militants.
3/9/07 Pakistan Dera Ismail Khan 1 0 A Shia businessman is shot to death by Sunni radicals.
3/9/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamists enter a grocery store pretending to be customers, then shoot the owner to death.
3/9/07 Afghanistan Arghandab 2 6 Two civilians are killed and six wounded by a roadside bomb attack.
3/9/07 India Melapalayam 1 0 A 35-year-old woman is pelted with stones and stabbed to death by members of al-Umma for having an affair.
3/8/07 Iraq Hawija 3 0 Jihadis kill two civilians with a bomb, and another in a shooting attack.
3/8/07 Pakistan Tank 1 0 A Sunni activist is gunned down by radical Shias while sitting in a café.
3/8/07 Afghanistan Mirwais Mena 1 5 Three children are among five civilians injured by a suicide bomber. Elsewhere, a German aid worker is killed.
3/7/07 Iraq Balad Ruz 30 25 A Fedayeen suicide bomber blows himself up in a café, taking the lives of thirty innocent people.
3/7/07 Iraq Diwaniya 2 0 Freedom fighters kill a police officer and his 10-year-old son.
3/7/07 Thailand Yala 1 1 A 58-year-old Buddhist rubber tapper is beheaded by Muslim radicals, who then set his body on fire.
3/7/07 Iraq Baghdad 22 49 Sunnis kill another twenty-two Shia pilgrims walking by the side of the road in four separate attacks.
3/7/07 Somalia Mogadishu 12 19 Islamic militias ambush a Ugandan convoy, killing a dozen civilians along a city street.
3/7/07 Pakistan Sui 1 12 Terrorists detonate a bomb, killing a pro-government tribal elder and wounding 12 others.
3/7/07 Thailand Pattani 1 2 A Buddhist man is shot to death by Islamic terrorists, who also injure his wife and a 7-year-old girl.
3/6/07 Iraq Tikrit 14 76 Sunni gunmen shoot fourteen Shia pilgrims to death in at least four shooting attacks around the country.
3/6/07 Philippines Mindanao 1 2 Moro Islamic Front terrorists attack a government post, killing a solider.
3/6/07 Afghanistan Nangarhar 8 35 A highway attack by the Taliban leaves eight civilians dead and over thirty-five injured.
3/6/07 Iraq Mosul 5 18 Terrorists set off a car bomb, killing five civilians.
3/6/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 35-year-old Buddhist is murdered by militant Muslims in a drive-by attack.
3/6/07 Iraq Baghdad 18 36 Three car bombs set by radical Sunnis target Shia pilgrims, killing at least eighteen.
3/6/07 Iraq Hilla 93 150 Sunnis suicide bombers attack Shia pilgrims walking in a procession, killing about one-hundred in a brutal attack.
3/6/07 Pakistan South Waziristan 7 1 Uzbeki Mujahideen attack a local chieftan's home, killing his brothers. Four others are killed in the ensuing gunfight.
3/6/07 Pakistan Kandhkot 1 0 A woman is shot to death by her brother-in-law on suspicion of having an affair.
3/5/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 70-year-old Buddhist man is shot to death by militant Muslims.
3/5/07 Thailand Yala 1 3 Two married couples are targeted by Muslim gunmen, resulting in one death and three injuries.
3/5/07 Somalia Mogadishu 7 2 Islamic militias are suspected in three separate shooting attacks that leave seven people dead, including business leaders.
3/5/07 Iraq Sulaiman Bek 4 0 Four people are tortured and shot to death by Islamic militants.
3/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 13 27 Children are among those killed when Sunnis attack Shia pilgrims in at least three separate bombing and shooting attacks.
3/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 26 54 Over two dozen people are slaughtered by a Fedayeen suicide bomber along a city street.
3/5/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A 21-year-old Buddhist man is shot to death by Muslim insurgents while standing in a phone booth.
3/5/07 Thailand Yala 2 0 Two men are gunned down by radical Muslims in a drive-by shooting.
3/5/07 Iraq Baghdad 25 0 Twenty-five victims of sectarian hatred are found executed.
3/5/07 Sudan Graida 2 0 Two African Union peacekeepers are murdered by suspected Arab militias.
3/5/07 Thailand Pattani 2 0 Two Buddhist rice paddy workers are murdered by Muslim gunmen as they are working.
3/4/07 Iraq Mosul 21 0 Four brothers are among twenty-one people murdered by Islamic terrorists in at least three attacks.
3/4/07 Afghanistan Nangarhar 16 25 The Hezb-e-Islami terrorist groups takes responsibility for a suicide attack that kills sixteen Afghan civilians.
3/4/07 Pakistan Nawabshah 2 0 A Muslim man hacks his sister and her lover to death with a hatchet in an honor killing.
3/4/07 Algeria Beni Yeni 7 1 Islamic fundamentalists ambush a police convoy, killing seven people.
3/4/07 Iraq Baghdad 34 7 Thirty-four people are killed by Islamic bombers and gunmen over a 24-hour period.
3/4/07 India Dharmari 1 0 A civilian is shot dead by the Mujahideen.
3/4/07 Afghanistan Khost 2 10 The Taliban attack a forest ranger station, killing two innocent people.
3/3/07 Iraq Tikrit 3 3 Three Iraqis are killed in a terrorist bombing.
3/3/07 Thailand Yala 1 0 A man is shot to death by Muslim radicals while on his way to work at a rubber plantation.
3/3/07 Thailand Narathiwat 2 0 Two teenage girls are murdered by Islamists as they are on their way to take a school exam.
3/3/07 Indonesia Ambon 0 13 At least a dozen people are injured in a nail bomb blast. Children are among the casualties.
3/3/07 Afghanistan Herat 2 17 Two Afghan civilians are blown to bits by a bomb planted by religious extremists.
3/3/07 Iraq Ramadi 12 22 A child is among a dozen people blown to bits by a Fedayeen suicide bomber.
3/3/07 Afghanistan Sangin 2 0 Two British soliders are killed when Taliban militants fire rockets into their camp.
3/3/07 Algeria Ain Defla 4 5 Four oil workers are murdered by Islamic fundamentalists while traveling in a bus.
3/3/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A civilian is shot and killed by Muslim militants.
3/3/07 Iraq Latifiya 3 0 Freedom fighters murder a mother and her two children with a roadside bomb.
3/3/07 Iraq Yusufiya 6 0 Six members of one family are shot to death inside their home by Sunnis angry that they were seeking peace with Shias.
3/2/07 Iraq Iskandariya 4 10 Freedom fighters lob mortars into a residential neighborhood, killing four people.
3/2/07 Iraq Ramadi 2 0 Terrorists shoot to death two members of a soccer team.
3/2/07 Iraq Baghdad 16 17 Sunnis car bomb a used car lot, killing at least Shia patrons. Six bodies are found elsewhere.
3/2/07 Iraq Diyala 18 0 Eighteen policemen are kidnapped by al-Qaeda and executed in captivity. A video shows the killers screaming, "Allah akbar," as they do their work.
3/2/07 Afghanistan Kunar 1 2 Taliban terrorists attack a police station, killing an officer.
3/2/07 Chechnya Lada 2 1 A policeman and his wife are slaughtered in an ambush by Jihad warriors on their vehicle.
3/2/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Islamic terrorists shoot a man to death while he is sitting in his pickup truck.
3/2/07 Pakistan Multan 3 8 A bicycle bomb targets an anti-terror judge, killing at least three people.
3/1/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 0 Islamic insurgents kill the bodyguard of a government official.
3/1/07 Afghanistan Garmser 1 0 An Afghan doctor is kidnapped and murdered by extremists.
3/1/07 Afghanistan Farah 3 48 Taliban terrorists detonate a bomb by remote control, killing at least three civilians. Ten children are among the injured.
3/1/07 Iraq Fallujah 7 6 Seven people at a wedding party are murdered by a terrorist bombing.
3/1/07 Iraq Baghdad 16 4 At least two separate terror attacks leave sixteen people dead.
3/1/07 India Kishtwar 2 0 A man and his father are killed inside their home by Harkat-ul-Jehad Islami terrorists.
3/1/07 Pakistan Punjab 1 0 A Muslim murders a heretic after shouting, 'You are an infidel.'
3/1/07 Jordan Amman 1 0 A 23-year-old man strangles his 43-year-old aunt to death on the (erroneous) suspicion that she was not a virgin.
2/28/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 48-year-old Buddhist is brutally shot to death by Muslim militants.
2/28/07 Thailand Pattani 1 0 A 59-year-old teacher is gunned down by Islamic terrorists.
2/28/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Muslim militants shoot a middle-aged rubber worker to death by the side of the road.
2/28/07 Iraq Muqdadiya 2 0 Two brothers are shot to death by sectarian terrorists.
2/28/07 Iraq Baghdad 12 23 Two car bombs, one a suicide blast and the other at a vegetable market, leave at least a dozen people dead.
2/28/07 Iraq Baghdad 16 0 Ten victims of sectarian violence are found murdered in the captial; six in Mosul. Two were beheaded
2/28/07 Iraq Habaniya 4 14 Jihadis lob mortars into a residential area, killing four people.
2/27/07 Iraq al-Baaj 4 6 A suicide bomber walks into the reception area of a cement company and kills four other people.
2/27/07 Afghanistan Bagram 23 11 A Fedayeen suicide bomber blows apart two-dozen innocent lives.
2/27/07 Pakistan Jandola 1 0 A teacher is abducted and beheaded by militant Muslims, who then dump his body in a sack.
2/27/07 Iraq Baghdad 16 42 At least sixteen people are murdered in various attacks by Islamic terrorists.
2/27/07 Algeria Ain Rich 3 1 Three security officers are killed in separate attacks by Islamic fundamentalists.
2/27/07 Iraq Mosul 7 42 Seven people are murdered when a suicide truck bomber detonates along a city street.
2/27/07 Pal. Auth. Gaza 3 0 Three prostitutes are gunned down in suspected honor killings by religious fundamentalists.
2/27/07 India Wagoora 1 0 A man who was shot by the Mujahideen a week earlier succumbs to his injuries.
2/26/07 Iraq Baghdad 25 0 Twenty-five people are murdered in sectarian attacks within the Religion of Peace.
2/26/07 Afghanistan Khost 1 7 A policeman is killed when he tries to stop a suicide bomber from entering a station.
2/26/07 Iraq Baghdad 6 31 Six people are killed when Islamic terrorists bomb a public works factory.
2/26/07 Iraq Baghdad 4 0 A Scottish man is among four killed by a roadside bomb.
2/26/07 Afghanistan Kandahar 2 1 A suicide bomber kills two civilians.
2/26/07 Saudi Arabia Medina 4 0 A 17-year-old boy is among four French nationals brutally gunned down by Islamic purists.
2/25/07 Iraq Baghdad 42 55 Suicide bombers strike a university, slaughtering at least forty innocents in the reception area.
2/25/07 Iraq Mosul 24 0 Sectarian factions go on a killing spree, taking down at least two dozen Iraqis.
2/25/07 Iraq Baghdad 19 4 Nineteen people are murdered by Islamic terrorists in various attacks.
2/25/07 Pakistan Kahan 3 0 A woman and two children are killed when Taliban-backed militants fire a rocket into a home.
2/25/07 Israel Hebron 1 0 An Isreali settler is stabbed to death by Palestinian militants.
2/25/07 Pakistan Larkana Tehsil 0 3 Three Hindu woman are gang-raped in their home at gunpoint by a Muslim gang.
2/24/07 Thailand Pattani 1 4 A 28-year-old civilian is gunned down by Muslim militants in front of his home.
2/24/07 India Habbaniyah 1 0 The Mujahideen gun down a cop.
2/24/07 Iraq Habbaniyah 52 110 Over fifty innocent people are massacred by suicide bombers, who drive through the wall of a mosque on their way to paradise.
2/24/07 Iraq Baghdad 23 33 Multiple Jihad attacks leave about two dozen people dead.
2/23/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 24-year-old man is murdered by Muslim radicals while sitting in a tea shop.
2/23/07 Somalia Mogadishu 9 20 At least three separate attacks by Islamic militias leave nine civilians dead.
2/23/07 Chechnya Gudermes 5 3 Five police officers are killed in a bombing by Jihad fighters.
2/23/07 Philippines Lamitan 1 0 Abu Sayyaf suspected in the murder of a man riding his bicycle.
2/23/07 Iraq Baghdad 6 8 A child is among six people killed by Islamic terrorists.
2/22/07 Pakistan Allah Bux Brohi 2 0 Two girls are hacked to death by their families for premarital sex.
2/22/07 India Wahipora 1 0 A man is abducted by the Mujahideen, who kill him in captivity.
2/22/07 India Damhal Khushipora 1 0 Terrorists shoot a civilian to death.
2/22/07 Iraq Kirkuk 5 0 Five people are kidnapped, tortured and shot to death by sectarian rivals.
2/22/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 A civilian is shot to death in a drive-by shooting by Muslim gunmen.
2/21/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 Islamic radicals fire on two brothers, killing one.
2/21/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 Militant Muslims shoot a teacher to death as he is riding to work.
2/21/07 Sudan Umm Dhai 20 0 Arab militias backed by the Islamic Republic massacre another twenty villagers.
2/21/07 Afghanistan Shindand 1 2 A female Spanish soldier is killed when Islamic radicals explode a mine under her truck.
2/21/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A 55-year-old Buddhist woman is shot to death by Muslim radicals.
2/21/07 Somalia Mogadishu 2 0 Two men are gunned down by suspected Islamists in separate attacks.
2/21/07 Iraq Najaf 11 38 Sunni terrorists murder eleven people with a suicide bomb blast.
2/21/07 Iraq Baghdad 20 0 Twenty victims of sectarian hatred are found around the capital.
2/21/07 Pakistan Tank 1 0 A tribal elder is killed in his home by al-Qaeda backed militants.
2/21/07 Pakistan Badar 1 0 A civilian is gunned down in what appears to be a random terror attack.
2/21/07 Iraq Baghdad 6 73 Six people are killed in a chlorine bomb attack by freedom fighters.
2/20/07 Pakistan Gujranwala 1 0 A woman is shot to death by an Islamic extremist for not wearing a head scarf.
2/20/07 Somalia Mogadishu 16 40 Islamic militias rain down mortars on areas of the city, killing at least sixteen residents.
2/20/07 Iraq Baghdad 7 15 A suicidal Sunni attacks a Shia funeral procession, killing seven innocents.
2/20/07 Iraq Baghad 10 31 Two Jihad bombings, one a gas station and the other at a vegetable market, kill ten innocent people.
2/20/07 Iraq Baghdad 33 0 Thirty-three victims of sectarian hatred within the Religion of Peace are found in the capital and in Mosul.
2/20/07 Iraq Taji 5 138 Islamic terrorists explode a truck near a restaurant, spreading chlorine gas over an area.
2/20/07 USA Nashville, TN 0 1 A Muslim cab driver runs over a Christian after arguing about religion. The young man's ankle and hip are broken by the vehicle.
2/20/07 Thailand Songkhla 1 0 A village chief is gunned down by Islamic radicals.
2/20/07 India Anantnag 2 0 Two guards are killed by the Al-Mansooran terrorist group.
2/19/07 Iraq Tal Afar 4 5 A 12-year-old boy is among four people killed when terrorists booby-trap a house.
2/19/07 Pakistan North Waziristan 1 0 Islamists cut off a man's head, hands and feet. Dumping the body along with a note.
2/19/07 Iraq Ramadi 11 4 Two Fedayeen suicide bombers kill eleven other people along a city street.
2/19/07 Iraq Baghdad 30 40 Ten people are killed in twin roadside blasts and a minibus attack, and another twenty victims of sectarian violence are found elsewhere.
2/19/07 Iraq Mosul 8 0 Eight people are kidnapped and shot to death by sectarian rivals.
2/19/07 India Moghal Maidan 1 2 A security patrol is brutally ambushed by the Mujahideen.
2/19/07 Thailand Yala 1 1 Another bombing kills another Thai. This time a soldier leaving his home.
2/19/07 Iraq Dhuluiya 5 10 A suicide bomber murders five other people.
2/18/07 Iraq Balad 6 0 The bodies of six victims of sectarian hatred are found around the country.
2/18/07 Thailand Yala 3 24 Three more people are killed in separate bombings.
2/18/07 Thailand Pattani 3 0 Three Chinese Buddhists are gunned down in a brutal assault by Islamic radicals.
2/18/07 Iraq Baghdad 60 131 Sixty Iraqis shopping at a market are blown to bits by Islamic Freedom Fighters. Over a hundred others are injured.
2/18/07 Iraq Baghdad 7 11 Seven people are murdered in at least two separate Jihad attacks.
2/18/07 Afghanistan Farah 4 2 Four policemen are killed in a suspected Taliban bomb attack.
2/18/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 2 Islamic gunmen attack a car carrying Somalis, killing at least one.
2/18/07 Somalia Mogadishu 4 0 A car explosion at a soccer stadium kills four people.
2/18/07 Pakistan Turab Gholato 2 0 Two children are killed by a landmine planted by Taliban-backed militants.
2/18/07 Iraq Fallujah 13 0 al-Qaeda lines up a family of thirteen, including an elderly woman and two boys, and shoots them to death.
2/18/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 22 Islamists stage a series of bombings against karaoke bars, killing at least one person.
2/17/07 Iraq Kirkuk 11 83 Sunnis murder at least eleven Kurdish shoppers with a double car-bombing along a crowded market area.
2/17/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A hunter and his dog are shot and hacked to death by Islamists, who then burn the bodies.
2/17/07 Iraq Hilla 2 0 A woman and her young daughter are stabbed to death by Jihad militants.
2/17/07 India Koti Nullah 1 0 The Mujahideen abduct a civilian from his home and kill him in captivity.
2/17/07 Pakistan Quetta 16 30 Sixteen people are murdered when a suicide bomber blows himself up inside a packed courtroom.
2/17/07 Iraq Karbala 2 0 Two people are kidnapped and beheaded by Islamic terrorists.
2/16/07 Pakistan Bajaur 1 3 Pro-Taliban militants kill a doctor with a roadside bomb
2/16/07 Somalia Mogadishu 1 12 Islamic militias lob a mortar into a displaced persons camp, killing a refugee.
2/16/07 Iraq Baghdad 15 0 Fifteen victims of sectarian hatred are found in the capital and in Mosul.
2/15/07 Iraq Baghdad 27 45 Two car bombings and a shooting attack on a bus full of women combine with twenty other bodies found victimized by Islamic terrorists.
2/15/07 Somalia Mogadishu 4 5 Children are among four killed by mortar fire from Islamic militias.
2/15/07 Iraq Kirkuk 3 5 Jihadis set up a fake checkpoint and gun down three Iraqis.
2/15/07 Iraq Al Gasreen 8 14 Women and children are among eight civilians killed in a Jihad mortar attack on a civilian area.
2/14/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 0 A Buddhist man is shot to death by Muslims while riding his motorcycle.
2/14/07 Iran Zahedan 18 0 A radical Sunni group takes credit for a bomb attack on a bus carrying Revolutionary Guards. Eighteen are killed.
2/14/07 Thailand Yala 1 5 One person is killed in a bomb attack by radical Muslims.
2/14/07 Thailand Narathiwat 1 1 A married couple is attacked by Muslim radicals. The wife dies from injuries.
2/14/07 Thailand Yala 2

Since I cannot answer to all your comments, I will resume in a few words where you've all got it wrong, your god Robert Spencer included.

In all your responses you resort to a dialectic of opposites that impedes any sophistication of thought. I know thinking can be hard but you got to make an effort guys. You say you need clarity of thought. You need black and white. Anything beyond that confuses you to proportions and pushes you to a system of thinking where you don't feel comfortable. It is the old age good versus evil fight. This fight is also primitive, and as a Muslim I feel ashamed to teach Westerners about the enlightening values of their own tradition which, since the eighteenth century has decided to put an end to religious fanaticism, to absolutist dogma and to .... (I'll nail the hammer a little more so you guys can get it) black and white dialectic.

Since some of you have not yet understood my position, I am not here to say that Islam is better than Christianity or that Western secular values. I don't believe in any kind of supremacism. I simply believe that usually a lot of problems look simple to stupid people and a lot more complex to intelligent people. Let the stupid ones fix them and we will be back to a dark and barbarous world. An Italian intellectual once said that democracy is as fragile as a porcelain vase. It takes a while to build but it is very easy to destroy. With your steadfasteness, resoluteness you can accomplish that job pretty swifly.

And in an age of fast food and fast media, we also need fast solutions (nuk'em says one, bomb'em says another). I am not saying that this is proper to the members of Jihad watch. A lot of the Jihadis think the same. And in more ways than you think, you really mirror each other.

Lads and Gals, I am going to work now. Don't be too harsh while i am gone, and i hope that what I have said can slip through some crack within your stubborn minds and flourish into a flower of hope. Hug ponies for me !!!! Good evening and good bye.

Oswald Spengler? I thought he was dead. He must be very old. Glad he's still writing. Really enjoyed "The Decline of the West."

The Spencer Challenge goes something like this: Using accepted and traditional Islamic sources create logical arguments which might convince jihadis they are bad Muslims.

I've seen bluster, rancor, and fulmination, but never a serious answer. Spengler, who often makes sense, is no different in this regard. Unless one really digs into jihadi literature and Islamic sources the result is vapid moral and theological equivalence. Suicidally vapid. First step is understanding the importance of Sura Nine, among many steps.

You'd think a guy who fashions himself a sort-of prophet of societal collapse would get this one right.

sublimer said

You say you need clarity of thought. You need black and white. Anything beyond that confuses you to proportions and pushes you to a system of thinking where you don't feel comfortable.

Who said that? Again, you are manufacturing your own "facts" and responding to them, all the while ignoring reality.

If you are a Muslim and coming to JW/DW to explain to us how Robert Spencer is wrong, or if you are trying to explain how we have misunderstood the Religion of Peace, then I have to say you are failing. I could imagine a Muslim coming here and having an honest debate, coming up with quotes or links to mainstream Islamic jurisprudence or to mainstream scholarly work that would explain the Qur'anic quotations and the stories from the hadiths that we have read with our own eyes. But neither you nor anyone else has done that. Okay, you've come here and called people names, insulted people, made many tu quoque arguments, got the discussion focused on you rather than the original topic, and made vague general statements with no substance to back them up. It's quite unconvincing. What do you get out of this? Why do you spend your time this way? What is your goal? What's in it for you?

What I am saying is yes a lot of imams are at fault, but you cannot occupy somebody's land without expecting some sort of radicalization.

posted by sublime

Gollee, gee, I must have missed the radicalization on a worldwide scale of Occupied Germany and Occupied Japan. No wait, they got on with the business of rebuilding their societies.

I am still waiting for the revolutionary automobiles and other world shaking products that will come out of Iraq. Oh wait, they are too busy destroying what is being rebuilt to produce anything of value.

I am old enough to remember the real story of the "Palestinians", I read it in the news. I know what the other Arab states did. And I knew people who were in Iraq when Saddam was in charge and someone who was in Iran when the brown stuff hit the fan in 1979.
So please don't try to give me your sanitized PC version of what you think happened.
Ross Perot's company was in the process of implementing a computerised social security system in Iran in the late 70's. This was being done by American computer engineers, not Sunni or Shite.
My neighbor here was in Iraq many times (during Saddam's years) because the power plants had to be repaired and kept operating by American engineers.

It is sad you seem to be educated, yet your arguments are all cliche PC rhetoric. I could copy and paste them off other sites where people rant and hate America, all the while blaming us for all their ills. Try thinking something up yourself, even if it's wrong.

sublimer said

Foehammer, I love your system of argumentation and I didn't know that Muhammad, ali and islam were countries.

Where did Foehammer say that Muhammad, Ali, and Islam are countries? Again, you are just making nonsensical stuff up. It's all a pointless waste of time. You could be offering thoughtful arguments. You could be spending your time in productive ways. Why do you waste your time wasting our time? Why?

Notice sublimer's clever semantics:

"I am not here to say that Islam is better than Christianity..."

He may not be "here to say" that Islam is better than Christianity, but that doesn't mean he doesn't, as a Muslim, have to believe it. And he is either inexcusably ignorant of his own Islam or lying to us, when he goes on to write: "I don't believe in any kind of supremacism." Islam through the Qur'an clearly and assertively expresses supremacism of the Truth of which it has been privileged to be the sole and unique vehicle for all Mankind.

sublimer said

A lot of the Jihadis think the same. And in more ways than you think, you really mirror each other.

In one very important way, at least, we are very different from the jihadists. The number of non-Muslim (and not-Muslim-enough-Muslims) killed by Muslims in the past decade is in the hundreds of thousands. The number of people killed by JW/DW posters is, as far as I know, zero. That difference is the significant one, whatever else we may or may not share in common.

'you really mirror each other.'

I really think you wish. Be careful what you wish for.

If all other arguments fail try to bring us down to your level.
I heard better arguments on the playground in grade school.
'Sticks and stones will hurt my bones, but words will never hurt me' Unless your Muslim, that is.

Foehammer is right, never go to a gun fight with a knife, especially one that is dull with the teachings of the Koran.

I love it when our group turns into a bunch of f15's flying around a biplane. Keep flying gang. you never know who is reading and will see the light.

Spengler is another wakademic f*ckwit who doesn't even realize how shallow and 'sophomoric' his own undigested views are.

Once again a troll has managed to hijack the above thread and divert attention away from the actual discussion.
They all seem to be clones of each other, or is it always the same one?

The argumentation is so idiotic it hurts:

Somewhat like this:

'We are all terrorists, the abortion clinic bombers, the IRA,
the KKK, Mc Veigh, the Ugandan army of .....'

Are they going to seek world domination too? The Jewish settlers also gonna take over the world?

And the poor 'Palestinians'- they are only 'defending themselves'-hey; can't somebody prepare some kind of a standard template just for the trolls that answers all their idiotic arguments so that we don't have to waste time with them?

Spengler is skating on thin ice with this non-argument.

Sure the Kuran says plenty of assorted things. (Many of which are not taught by the Bible thank Yahweh for that)!

But the Kuran ALSO teaches Muslims to commit first degree murder against the "unbelievers," and institutionalize this conduct, conspire to continue to keep committing it, and not to feel guilty for they lives they have taken despite the fact there is absolutely zero factual evidence to support ANY Islamic teachings (particularly this one). So far, Islam has murdered somewhere in the vicinity of 300 MILLION people over 13 centuries. We can all see where ignoring homicidal teachings has landed millions of unsuspecting "unbelievers" -- the morgue. Are we in any rush to follow suit? Why WOULD we be?????

The Bible to its credit teaches the 10 Commandments which the "THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER" that explicitly prohibits killing for any reason other than self-defense. Incidentally, even the "an eye for an eye" Biblical teaching works as self-defense: would-be attacking tribe can be dissuaded from attacks by the law dictating that what they do to others be done to them (in the modern world we called it Mutually Assured Destruction); not every tribe would have wanted to be open to retalliatory killings and the like). Jesus unlike Muhammad was no mass murdered. And Muhammad unlike Jesus worked no miracles before eyewitnesses.

With over 8000 Islamic terror attacks resulting in fatalities since 9-11-2001, we can see that
what is taught in the Kuran can result in innocent persons being murdered and for this reason absolutely must be taken seriously by non-Muslims. These acts of carnage are Islamic doctrine put in to practice. And this doctrine comes from the Kuran!

Spengler is making a big mistake when he conveniently forgets that 1-)Muslims generally believe (strongly if not fanatically) what is written in the Kuran so that whatever is written in it must be taken seriously by non-Muslims (whether or not they believe these writings themselves as not believing them could get them murdered by a Muslim jihadist in a heartbeat) 2-)a high percentage of Kuranic doctrines either teach homicidal violence against the "unbelievers" or consistently relate to this directly or indirectly, and 3-) Muslims not only believe the doctrines taught by the Kuran they ACT on them; when Muslims act out the violence against the "unbelievers" as the Kuran teaches them to do (everywhere and without mercy), members of the western democratic nations perceive it as "TERRORISM" (Islamic terrorism).

The Kuran teaches Muslims to massacre unbelievers across the globe (and they do). The Kuran teaches Muslims to beat their wives (whichthey do), marry multiple wives (they do), attack Jews (they do), form armies called mujahideen (which they do). I mean, do these Kuranic teachings sound like anything that we can safely ignore??? If this Spengler character thinks so, maybe there is something wrong with HIM.

I think what sublimer is trying to say, at least in my case at least, with regards to looking at everything in black and white, is that yes, Muhammad was a bloodthirsty savage, but you have to examine his life within the context of the time and place he lived.

Or something like that.

It's the same fallacy Armstrong insults our intelligence with, as if the Qur'an, Allah's own word, does not say Muhammad was without err, a beautiful example for those who wish to enter paradise; as if Muhammad was Allah's final messenger, proclaiming Allah's final message to mankind - the seal of the prophets. As if it is not because of this reason that the sunnah is indispensible in the proper practice of Islam, or that because of this reason many Muslim heretics try to dismiss the sunnah as forgeries propagated by Satan or the kafirun.

Or maybe he's trying to say that Muhammad wasn't a bloodthirsty savage at all, even for his time; maybe he finds nothing wrong with cutting of peoples' hands and feet, or burning their eyes out with hot irons, etc, etc...

"a beautiful example for those who wish to enter paradise"

You know, I doubt the most rank Pelagian Christian really believes that all he has to do to enter paradise is to emulate Jesus in his actions.

But it sure seems that the vast majority of Muslims believe that about emulating Muhammad.

Gnosis .... you are a source of pure intelligence. You seem to understand what I am saying and you come up with two completely different conclusions.

Remote_Control .... No semantics : I don't believe that Islam is superior to Christianity. I don't believe in supremacism.

And for the rest, read this quote and mix it it with whatever quotes Spencer is feeding you. Your head might explode.

In Sura 2:62 it states: "Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

In todays real world all Non Muslims in Muslim held lands are either being exterminated or forced to leave...there is no religious plurality allowed..

One-way to describe this is what is taught by religion and culture and Islamic in scriptures closely relate to what it practiced by Muslims reflected in their attitudes, do they have a connection?

What happens when Muslims leave their religion to become another in the Middle East and what happens when a Muslim woman from the West tries to have a relationship with a White Westerner or a Hindu or Christian?
You know the attitude and the consequences and that’s due to religion.

Why don't the Palestinians integrate? The same reasons why a Muslim Woman in the UK wear veils because they don't want to integrate, but what happens to an uncovered woman in the Middle East, does a mass protest follow with death threats? If one Muslim can not stand the sight of a cross in a school how can the same mentality of the Palestinians as a people who have a choice to integrate yet demand separation as non democratic solution in Israel but opt for a dictatorship instead not say it's not down to a religious interpretation? The way they have been brought up through repetitive means and intolerance of anything other than Islam.

Where do Muslims in the world today want to integrate in democracy without having to change the laws of the host nation without demands after demands in the West. Where Islam meats a multicultural society is it not the Muslims who drive people out with support of what has been dictated in the Koran as their Prophet demands, either they are ignorant or the system they live in made them that way. Does it not reflect the religion, is it not somewhere in the Koran or do they just misquote, a billion or more Muslims not knowing the Koran must be a bit daft if that is the case? Or is it a genetic make up situation of behaviour and they are born that way or made that way mentally through religion of the law, you decide.

If the West was as intolerant as the Middle East we would not have Muslims in America, Europe or Australia unlike how they immigrate to China in their masses because communism is the unreligious version of Islam they won't accept religion in their country.

So it's either has something to do with religion or it does not and it's obvious by the laws of Islam that the laws quote form the Koran and cutting heads of and amputating criminals is not a man made law either well it is if you are from the Western democracy?

For me, one of the biggest problems with the "religion" of Islam is, in fact, dualism. Dualism (radical blacks and white -- no nuances) is what is most characteristic of Islam. (Also, the list of the murders taking place in just the last 3 months --well, excellent!! that alone should cause people to think and question and reject.)

This aspect of islam (the dualism -- related to paganism) was discussed in an article here at JihadWatch (in an interview with the founder of the Center for the Study of Political Islam). it's available here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015139.php

In Sura 2:62 it states: "Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
--------------
That’s very democratic quote so why don't the nations of Islam use it? Is it because loopholes say otherwise and it can be over ridden by other quotes that make this one seem like a misinterpretation? Or is it a quote to lie to the infidel and kill them on another quote once they have been duped, if this quote is true Islam case of Islam was solely built on that quote is true Islam would it not be a democracy by now? and it’s not and the Muslims know that because I bet another 100 verses out number the kindness of this one about this subject.

Before I get banned or my future posts censored,

I think these videos are very important for you to see another aspect of the arab world :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pIlfg0W0D4

http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2007/02/nightlife_and_f.php#more

jesusisthelamb,

There are verses of the Quran that considered historical (only historically relevant) and others that are considered immutable (forever true). You have to know which ones are which. Robert Spencer never tells the difference between the two.

With Islam, there are NO "human being" -- only "believer" and "non-believer." Radical dualism.

Sublimer,

Regarding 2:62, do you really believe we are that gullible.

Perhaps you have heard of al-nasikh wa al mansukh? Surah 2 is about 87/114 (submission.org). Let's quote a little closer to the end chronologically, please

005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Now, we know that Muslims have some pretty broad definitions of "waging war" and "striving" and "mischief". And we also know from other surahs that to be afforded the outcome you allude to by referencing 2:62 requires that the Jews and Christians in question must accept the Messenger as Rasool Allah and accept the Qur'an as Allah's revelation (effectively making them not Jews or Christians, but Muslims). The "Last Day" there is Muhammad's version of eschatology. It should have been a clue to you.

Your head should explode and let the straw out.

In Sura 2:62 it states: "Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

-----------------------

Also this quote sounds like the book of Acts about righteousness and it is a concept in the Christian religion that was written some 650 years before, again sounds like modification of previous wisdom and knowledge and it's nothing new only difference is that the West use it and Islamic countries don't so much. But the Bible is speaking about those judged by the ones who never know of Jesus but it's tuffer on the ones who know him and have become anti-Christs by spirit.

That quote means that Muslims believe christians and Jews will go to Paradise. Some Jihadis don't believe in it because they say that it is abrogated by other quotes which have a more historical dimension. But that is wrong. Most muslims though believe in it.

Damn,

I keep getting my most important posts censored. I want to share with you some videos where you see another aspect of life in Muslim countries but they are being censored. I mean if there is a ban against links to other sites I would understand but I've seen other posts linking to other websites. so why are mine getting banned ?

Rewrite:
Or is it a quote to lie to the infidel and kill them on another quote once they have been duped, if this quote is true then Islam was solely built on that quote would it not be a democracy by now? And it’s not as we can all see and if the Muslims know of it is it not covered another 100 verses that say the opposite out in the kindness of this.
If the case is true the Muslim countries should not worry about Mulsims turing to Christ of the Bible either but obviously another verse will stop that from taking place.

"That quote means that Muslims believe christians and Jews will go to Paradise"

No it doesn't. See above.

Liar.

-- Imperialist Jihad is aggressive and unjust. Defending your homeland is something else. You are confusing the two.
Posted by: sublimer

Thus you would have to agree that if we were to pick up arms to expel all moslems from the Western countries which they have so unjustly invaded - aided and abetted by our ignorant appeasement-minded guvmints - we'd be justified in the Defense of our Homeland?

Or is homeland only the dar-al-islam?

WE want OUR homeland FREE of islam and ANY and ALL influence thereof.

Anything less than that will lead to conflict.

"Damn, I keep getting my most important posts censored."

First, please restrain your profanity.

Secondly, nothing gets deleted that fast. Review your HTML tag skills.

Thirdly, this is not your site. Deal with it.

Concerned citizen,

considering how easy it is to become a muslim (you only need the shahada : declare that you believe in Muhammad and God) your argument doesn't make any sense. If a christian says he submits to allah, he is no longer a Christian. He is a Muslim. And the quote I sent you is explicit. It talks of Christians and Jews going to Paradise.

You might refuse to see what's beneath your nose, but i can't help you there. accuse me of being deceitful, a liar, etc... it's your problem. I am not here to ask you to convert. To the contrary if you like your religion you should stick to it. I am just sharing with you other quotes that give you a different picture of Islam.

That quote means that Muslims believe christians and Jews will go to Paradise. Some Jihadis don't believe in it because they say that it is abrogated by other quotes which have a more historical dimension. But that is wrong. Most muslims though believe in it.

Posted by: sublimer

--------------------------------------------------

Really ????? Which Muslims? certainly not the leaders in Egypt, Syria,Iran,Lebanon, etc...the Muslims in israel, and just about every single article and broadcast from Memritv and throughout the M.E .

To be honest i have rarely heard anything but hatred toward Jews and others from Muslims. so forgive me if i don't believe for a second that Muslims who are taught that Jews are spawned from Apes and pigs would share the Paradise they are murdering tens of thousands for with Jews or any infidel.

www.memritv.org familiar with it? cause this stuff comes stright from the Camels mouth. what you talk about sounds like pure fiction.

It is not my site. I have not used profanity either. maybe I've been vulgar but no profanity.

" I am just sharing with you other quotes that give you a different picture of Islam."

Yes, you are cherry-picking nice sounding passages, which as alluded to above, only sound good because they paraphrase appropriated material.

MoBlows

exactly that's my point !!!! You think that because everything you get about the Middle east is from Memri TV. You know how selective Memri TV is. You know how biased it is. That's why I am sharing these videos with you. There are thousands of tv channels across the arab world alone and they focus on what crazy imams spew on tv. Imagine I created my own website and just put in images from Falwell et al and translated it into arabic. It would be the same thing.

"considering how easy it is to become a muslim (you only need the shahada : declare that you believe in Muhammad and God) your argument doesn't make any sense. If a christian says he submits to allah, he is no longer a Christian. He is a Muslim."

You're obfuscating and you know it. Islam considers "Jews" and "Christians" worthy of paradise who kept the "original" Islamic (non-existant here in real space-time) version of previous revelations. Therefore, they are "Muslims", just as Abraham(Ibrihim) is considered a "Muslim".

Allahfanculo,

If the Muslims invade the United States you have all the right to pick up arms and expel them. But if you think immigration is invasion, you must be a little confused. If that's your parameter, you would have to fight the Mexicans first, the Indians second, the Chinese and then maybe the Jews and the Muslims.

"Imagine I created my own website and just put in images from Falwell et al and translated it into arabic. It would be the same thing."

Go for it.

Concerned Citizen,

Reread the quote ! I cannot go inside your brain and think for you too. There is a limit to my argument.

If you guys want to see some more videos of movies, songs, art, debates in the Muslim world, I'll share them with you.

I am obviously cherry picking but it is to give some counterbalance to what is spewed here. But at least i admit it. I acknowledge that a lot is said in the Koran sometimes even contradictory stuff but that's the reality.

I just don't want you to see in Islam a book of absolute hate. It isn't.

"Imagine I created my own website and just put in images from Falwell et al and translated it into arabic. It would be the same thing."

Go for it.

i would never do that. I am not a provocateur and I don't want to inflame passions. It's a cheap tactic.

"I acknowledge that a lot is said in the Koran sometimes even contradictory stuff but that's the reality."

That is the WHOLE PROBLEM! The real God is not inconsistent or contradictory. Review BXII's speech from Regensburg.

Sorry for being pedantic and insisting on the correct use of words, but language is the basis of any reasoning. Logos in Greek means both language and ratiocination. Read the chapter "On Language" in Hobbes' Leviathan. It is very interesting.
Posted by: sublimer

Hey subslimer..

I have a far tougher reading assignment for you. It's called the Koran. If you can read that illogical, garbled and utterly illogical construct - and make any sense of it at all - then please ratiocinate on it for me.

So far my *logos* had led me to but one certain conclusion of the meaning of the Koran:

"Kill the unbelievers."

Bottom line.

"i would never do that. I am not a provocateur and I don't want to inflame passions. It's a cheap tactic."

Spare me.

"I just don't want you to see in Islam a book of absolute hate. It isn't."

No, just the chronologically last half.

This particular video is important and it will interest a lot of the readers interested in Islamism. It's from a movie called Marock. It shows a Muslim secular girl who finds her brother praying and then gets mad at that fact. It's in French and arabic but I think you'll get the jist :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hqtXGQT0QQ

Concerned Citizen

; )

"I am obviously cherry picking but it is to give some counterbalance to what is spewed here."

Perhaps you have an imam who doesn't know any more about Islam than Karen Armstrong, but cheer up, the ISNA will install a more knowledgable one soon, and you'll see that "counterbalance" in your mosque soon.

By the way, don't wink at me, that is not allowed in your religion.

"That is the WHOLE PROBLEM! The real God is not inconsistent or contradictory. Review BXII's speech from Regensburg."

Do you think there are no contradictions in Christianity ???? You are either disngenuous or you don't know your own religion. Just the fact that Christians themselves believe in the OT is in itself a contradiction.

"Just the fact that Christians themselves believe in the OT is in itself a contradiction."

Really? How so?

Have you read the NT ? and have you read the OT ? Do you think the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT ? I am starting to doubt whether you are Christian.

For the benefit of sublimer .. in the link provided by Robert here is what's coming ..
"Adonis (the pen-name of Ali Ahmad Said) makes a deeper point in his writings on Arabic poetry. He argues that Islam destroys the creative capacity of the Arabs, who in turn do not have the capacity to become modern"

"The trouble, he added, is that Arabs do not want to be free.because being free is a great burden.When you are free, you have to face reality, the world in its entirety. On the other hand, if we are slaves, we can be content and not have to deal with anything. Just as Allah solves all our problems, the dictator will solve all our problems.*

Sublimer - you selectively chose to read and your entire argumentation is nothing other than tacqia (spell). You were not able to discuss anything effectively. You were jumping from one piece to another - I guess you want examples. Read it for yourself, they are all there above for you to re-read. I am a free person, I am not a slave to your Mo-Allah or any p.dictator. I live free in the free world and I’ll die a free man.

It must be difficult for any muslin to live in the free world. That explains why they are so bent on trying to destroy it.

One questions - did it ever occur to you that Muslims have problem with every other religion and all the non-religious people in the world? I won’t even mention Kurds/Shietts/Women/ Homosexual / Transsexuals /numerous other categories of the human race. I can’t figure why don’t you judge it all by yourself, or you don’t want to?

exactly that's my point !!!! You think that because everything you get about the Middle east is from Memri TV. You know how selective Memri TV is. You know how biased it is.

Posted by: sublimer

Biased???? If you call translating as Biased then we have differing ideas of " Biased "

Have you ever seen the "Childrens" programming from the Palestinians or the Iranians? Evil is the only word i can come up with.

There is sooo much hateful media coming out of the M.E . from the childrens shows to the holocaust denials to the showing of beheadings and stonings on tv.

the thing you ignore is that this Media comes from the Motherland so to speak. from the very capitals and meccas of Islam and it comes from the highest offices and Religious Leaders. If the Pope said anything like many of the Imams and Clerics in the M.E do then the world would freak out on them. but NO as usual Islam gets a pass and we are to believe that this organized and highly popular attitude is not the majority?
come on. i have eyes and ears and the day i see a leader of Hamas or the President of Iran denounce hate then we will be on the same page, till then i see the most influential leaders in the M.E spewing hatered.

Concerned citizen.

Relax. You're as austere as our imams.

MoBlows,

You probably know that there is no pope in Islam. we do not have any religious authority. Since the democratization of the airwaves, any muslim who considers himself a scholar can be on TV and can say whatever he wishes. The more sensational the better it sells. It's actually not very far off from the so called experts of the Iraq war or of Islam you see on american tv these days. Most of them don't know how to speak Arabic. They study the Koran for a year and then they show up and call themselves experts.

"Have you read the NT ? and have you read the OT ? Do you think the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT ?"

Yes, multiple times. Continue. How so?

Don't you think that the God of the OT is vengeful and capable of destroying cities (Sodom), eradicating the world (Noah) if he is not happy with his tribe. And the God of the NT is more loving and compassionate. This is really a new one : A Muslim teaching a Christian his religion.

If Islam is not about hatred (and murdering all those who do not agree/practice/conform to one's own version of Islam), then how does one account for the all the murders (especially Muslim vs Muslim) taking place world-wide? The "religion" (regardless of variation) is one of extreme hatred and intolerance and murder. Your "religion" sanctifies the murder of Jews, the murder of Ahmadis, the murder of Shiites, the murder of Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus, Christians -- in fact, the only question becomes who is safe? The answer, of course, is "no one." You are all at one anothers' throats and without let up. And to top things off, your "religion" then claims heavenly reward for these murders!

Islam is a religion of zealots murdering other zealots, and, frankly (imo), it comes far closer to Paganism than any other "religion' being practiced today. (It becomes an embarrassment for all humanity to have this abomination termed a "religion." you should be deeply ashamed.)

Sublimer i DO know that. Semantics again. You cannot deny that the religious leaders and political leaders all over the Muslim world from Britain to Saudi Arabia and Iran spew this filth.
Maybe Islam needs an absolute voice cause the way it has been doing things is not working. also i guess when i see people burning effigies and protesting in the streets in the TENS OF THOUSANDSa and calling for my and all other westerners destruction i should just believe that they don't represent Muslims? even when it comes from the most Islamic of nations?

ok then

"Don't you think that the God of the OT is vengeful and capable of destroying cities (Sodom), eradicating the world (Noah) if he is not happy with his tribe. And the God of the NT is more loving and compassionate. This is really a new one : A Muslim teaching a Christian his religion."

Same God, same hell, same redemptive plan fully revealed in Christ. Keep going. I'm learning so much. (Have you read "The Revelation"? It's the book at the end. How about Matthew 28?).

can you remind me again why Iraq is in a civil war ?"

Sure, ready?

Russia.

Iran.

Syria.

Muhammad.

Ali.

The Qur'an.

Islam.

Any more questions?

Foehammer, I love your system of argumentation and I didn't know that Muhammad, ali and islam were countries.

subslimer, you just nailed yourself. You asked to be reminded why Iraq is at civil war with itself and Foehammer gave you a list of answers in key words.

Your criticism of his retort is to state that some of his reasons aren't countries.

But then, he never said he was giving you a list of countries nor did you ask for a list of such.

You are avoiding his indisputable evidence by attacking some supposed flaw in his argumentation. One that you have in fact created by stating that some of the reasons he gave aren't countries.

But then I am sure you know that. For you mahometans it is more than second nature to ague in this manner. You do not follow logic the way we do. And it has worked so very well for you.

Since the facts speak so strongly against you - you and your kind choose to wear us out with obfuscating argumentation and tantrums when we still refuse to waver.

Then you look for divisions among those whom you seek to conquer. And other weaknesses - such as greed and lust for money.

These newfound allies of your opposition now pave the way for you and your convoluted belief-system.

These PC allies of yours know better than you how to sell your lies and half-truths to the rest of us.. they simply indoctrinate our children. They play the guilt-fiddle ad nauseam. Ad absurdam in fact.

They even make laws in OUR LANDS to keep us from communicating with one another.

That is how much islam and its PC allies fear the truth.

This is how much you fear simple deductive reasoning.

So you now find yourself on Jihadwatch.. probing our resistance to your death cult and it's many forms of mind control.

You are undubitably fascinated as you are incredulous that there are people who simply refuse to go along with everyone else and lay down in the face of what considers itself to be the invincible and unstoppable force of islam.

F.Y.I. The formerly "appeasement-minded" have just spoken very loudly against your cult. In fact, they have roared.

I can't wait to see that the elections in Italy Britain and Spain will bring next.

subslimer.. the peoples of the West have fought amongst ourselves many times throughout history - and we've stood together when we've been under assault by islam.

One time it even took 800 years to get you out. See Spain. But we did it. We got you out.

And we will do it again. Because most of up would rather live free and dirt-poor than enslaved and in comfort.

Since islam provides neither freedom nor comfort we will have no choice but to fight to retain them both.

And should we ever be poor again you can rest assured that our inventiveness and guile all but guarantee that this will be merely temporary.

I pray for the day that SOWdiarabia runs out of oil. My only hope is that there won't be any Western NGO's to feed them once they've run dry.

Choosing to spend their money on promoting islam world-wide instead of building an infrastructure while they can is a direct result of the twisted mindset that is islam.

When SA finds itself without oil and income for food they might want to ask their moslem brothers for assistance, inshalla.

I hope you get the general idea, subslimer.

If Islam is not about hatred (and murdering all those who do not agree/practice/conform to one's own version of Islam), then how does one account for the all the murders (especially Muslim vs Muslim) taking place world-wide?

Besides Iraq, the only Muslims that want to kill other Muslims are the Jihadis. Inspired by Wahhabism and the Salafi branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, they have a goal since the US aided them in their fight against the soviet Union in afghanistan. They tried to implement islamist gov'ts in the Arab countries after that through spectacular terrorist attacks mostly in algeria and Egypt and Saudi Arabia. They failed miserably and decided to change tactics. They thought that by atacking the United States, more Muslims would support them. Initially they failed cuz after september 11 most Muslims sympathized with the US. All this sympathy however quickly eroded when the US decided to attack Iraq. We then went from a period where the Jihadis were hated and a dying species to a period where they are actually getting reinforced since the Iraq war is proving to a perfect recruiting tool for jihadis.

Fo the larger picture watch Adam Curtis' documentary : "The Power of Nightmares"

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=881321004838285177&q=power+of+nightmares

Answer the question, sublimer. How so? Did you read Matthew 28 yet?

"Besides Iraq, the only Muslims that want to kill other Muslims are the Jihadis."

Not true. Google "Honor killing".

Sublimer are you trying to lessen the Evil and deflect the guilt of Islam by saying that only Jihadi's hate and want to destroy the Infidels or Jews etc..? cause i recently read an article that said upwards of 30% of Muslims worldwide are "sympathetic" to AlQaeda and Jihad, whether they would actually participate or not. Guilty by association i say.

MoBlows,

That is projection theory. If among a group of 100, one says that he wants to kill you that doesn't necessarily mean that the rest want to do so. But since you associate that one person with the group, you project that the group wants to kill you. It seems logical but it really is not.

How soooo??

MoBlows,

As I said before do the same poll in South America :

Are you sympathetic to Ben laden ?

You'll also get something close to 30% and they are not even Muslim. He has unfortunately become some sort of che guevara icon, an altenative if you dislike american foreign policy. But it doens't mean that it is religious. I am pretty sure that there are people who share his religious views but that percentage is definitely not 30%

'A Muslim teaching a Christian his religion.'

Yes, Christians and other non-Muslims down through the ages have been ceaselessly 'taught' this wonderful religion of Muslims. And we learn. Even the troll straining so hard here today, in typically benighted fashion, provides some educational value.

Concerned citizen.

Relax. You're as austere as our imams.
Posted by: sublimer

Not even Adolf Hitler can lay claim to that one, subslimer.

Jesusisthelamb,

democracy is not built on solely religious values. Just look at the conception of democracy in the western world. It's actually an antireligious process.

Yes, again the issue here is actual behavior and what systemic Ideology supports it. The Jihadists have been telling us quite clearly their interpretation of their book, and again and again it is about the Caliphate, and bringing all peoples under their control, whatever it takes.

There is plenty of nonsense in all of the Holy books, and plenty of violence, with plenty of literal followers.

But again, I don't see atheists, agnostics, Jews, Christians, etc...blowing up innocent women and children on a daily basis like the Jihadists.

The enemy is Jihad, Jihad, Jihad.

Honor killings also exist among gangster groups in the US and among what we call passionate love murders. You know that there are 30,000 murders a year in the US. I am not asking you as a christian to justify all those murders. that would be preposterous.

HOOWW SOOOOOO?

sublimer: troll, go away, you annoy!

"you would have to fight the Mexicans first, the Indians second, the Chinese and then maybe the Jews and the Muslims"-

No we don't, because they don't fight us, they don't follow an ideology of hatred and they don't preach hatred and want to annihilate us like the Muhammed worshipping Koranimals do.

"one says that he wants to kill you that doesn't necessarily mean that the rest want to do so. But since you associate that one person with the group, you project that the group wants to kill you"

Remember Koran rage, cartoon rage? remember I don't know how many 'rages' where the indidels have insulted the five gazillion muslims who are habitually enraged and firebomb and kill because of rage. And you are giving us some friggin' feelgood crap video's from Arabia,-

this is called Jihad watch-, not Arab feelgood watch. You are an idiot and a troll.

Goodbye

Oh, please, spare us!! And, you actually think it's the fault of the United States that more and more of your kind (that is, Muslims) support murder, mayhem and terrorism?? As I laugh.

You know, Murdering others (and claiming for yourself "heaven") is your problem -- STOP the CONSTANT blaming of others. That's really what Islam is all about, though, isn't it? -- go point your finger at some one -- any one, so long as you don't have to look at yourself. Well, you know what? I think you are utterly pathetic.

for once Muslims should take responsibility -- and that means, GROW UP -- BE accountable -- learn first how to respect yourself, then -- then, maybe -- others might respect you. I'll be waiting until that day comes (frankly, I don't think it ever will).

You want a contradiction concerned citizen, read the first book of genesis and the second book of genesis. There is a contradiction there. Look it up. I am not going to tell you what it is. ust look it up.

I do understand the point Foehammer,

You would have been a perfect kapo in nazi germany.
Posted by: sublimer

subslimer, being that I am actually a German allow me to speak as an expert on this.

To be a kapo in Nazi Germany one should not think for himself nor should one respect the freedoms of others.

Therefore..

Foehammer would be in jail in Nazi Germany. If he were so lucky.

You, on the other hand would be working very closely with one Joseph Goebbels.

Please resort to name calling when you have no arguments.

Freedom,

Hug a unicorn for me.
Posted by: sublimer

subslimer, hug a moderate muslim for me.

You know that there are 30,000 murders a year in the US. sublimer at May 7, 2007 06:04 PM

Camel S... There are about 15,000 murders a year in the Us and average percentage change is -2.4%. FYI Slimer, they are on the decrease.

subslimer, have you hugged a bin laden today?

Ok guys,

I think I've shaken your foundations enough and I am going to call it a day. Nice talking to you. bye bye.

Even on a site like this, a Muslim insults our intelligence and acts like we don't know what naskh is.

Or maybe he doesn't. Deliberately ambiguous, or ignorant of his own faith?

Concerned citizen,

considering how easy it is to become a muslim (you only need the shahada : declare that you believe in Muhammad and God) your argument doesn't make any sense. If a christian says he submits to allah, he is no longer a Christian. He is a Muslim. And the quote I sent you is explicit. It talks of Christians and Jews going to Paradise.

You might refuse to see what's beneath your nose, but i can't help you there. accuse me of being deceitful, a liar, etc... it's your problem. I am not here to ask you to convert. To the contrary if you like your religion you should stick to it. I am just sharing with you other quotes that give you a different picture of Islam.

Lie down with dogs, wake up with flies!
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2

And fleas. And ticks.

I'll get right on that. But I asked first. Matthew 28?

Another lie: "Besides Iraq, the only Muslims that want to kill other Muslims are the Jihadis. Inspired by Wahhabism and the Salafi branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, they have a goal since the US aided them in their fight against the soviet Union in afghanistan."

For but one brief counter example, there is a sect in Turkey which has been murdered by the Turks systematically...it's a Shiite branch of Islam. Ditto for the Kurds. the Kurds did nothing to prompt the murderous zeal of the Turkeys (other than, of course, to speak a language other than Turkish). You had better do some more research.

Genesis 1 & 2. Check.

Your turn.

In other words, if the Jews were trying to evict anybody else from that territory who had been there for centuries, I'd probably oppose that. However, given that it's Muslims that they are trying to evict, and given that if Muslims demographically gain an edge there, it would be over for Israel, I don't fault the Jews at all. Similarly if the Serbs and Indians were to take steps to de-Islamize Kosovo and Kashmir, I'd fully support it.

Otherwise, in the case of other conflicts, such as if Ireland wanted to expel all Protestants from Ulster, I wouldn't.
Posted by: Infidel Pride

I am SO with you on that one! They started their entire cult by killing and expelling Jews from Mecca and now they complain when the shoe is on the other foot - FOR ONCE!

They are expelling non-mo's from Thailand and Malaysia.. killing them in fact.

They are killing and expelling Serbs from Bosnia and Kosovo.

They are expelling Jews from Yemen. And Hindus from Pakiland. And on and on and on..

So I say GO ERETZ ISRAEL!!

Actually I had a dream last night. The skies over the mideast were filled with IDF jets. It looked like something out of WW2 or Star Wars but with F-18s.

let islamist trolls starve, they are ignorant and have no intentions of learning anything of value but to sprew out their twisted logic derived from their death cult.

Sublimer asks:

"Have you read the NT ? and have you read the OT ? Do you think the God of the OT is the same as the God of the NT ? I am starting to doubt whether you are Christian."

sublimer

the New Testament depicts a universal and transcendant God that reaches out in love for all humanity.

The Pharisees with their intolerance, their meretriciousness, their attachment to ritual, their ethnic pride, were the enemies of this new God. They passed the torch to muhammad (MHRIHF)*. The muhammadans are the new Pharisees, the enemies of Christ.

considering how easy it is to become a muslim (you only need the shahada : declare that you believe in Muhammad and God) your argument doesn't make any sense. If a christian says he submits to allah, he is no longer a Christian. He is a Muslim.

[...]

Posted by: sublimer

islam is like a roach motel. You check in but you never check out.

Why don't you tell us how easy it is to LEAVE islam instead of only how easy it is to get in.

Good things must be hard-won. islam is the exact opposite. It's more like a venereal disease. Quite easy to pick up - but almost impossible to get rid of.

I like this one in particular:

"(you only need the shahada : declare that you believe in Muhammad and God)"

All you need do is declare something - Not *know* it. islam is based on lies right from the start.

This is what happens when a human tries to do God's work. They end up creating a Frankenstein of a religion - islam.

MHRIF=May he rot in hell forever.

The Shahada

yeah, kinda like when Satan said to Jesus: Throw yourself down on the ground and worship me and I will give you all the riches in all the kingdoms on earth.

Jesus didn't take the bait, but muhammad (MHRIHF) swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

And that's why we KNOW muhammad (MHRIHF) is the anti-Christ. He did the exact opposite. See stoning of adultress for yet one more example out of many.

@sublimer:

"I just don't want you to see in Islam a book of absolute hate. It isn't."

You're right again. It contains equal amounts of: absurdity, stupidity and hatred.

Ok guys,

I think I've shaken your foundations enough and I am going to call it a day. Nice talking to you. bye bye.
Posted by: sublimer

Hey, look who's declaring victory! My foundations are shaking from laughter!

I love it when our group turns into a bunch of f15's flying around a biplane. Keep flying gang. you never know who is reading and will see the light.
Posted by: auntbea

You're being kind to subslimer, auntbea. I was thinking of him as a horsefly.

Nasty and annoying. But ultimately harmless. By the way he just declared victory. I am still laughing.

"I think I've shaken your foundations enough and I am going to call it a day. Nice talking to you. bye bye."

Aww man! And I was learning so much about Christianity (not)!

Bih-KWOWK, bok, bok, bok, bih-KWOWK!!

Can you give me evidence that the civil war between shiites and sunnis have been going on unabated for 1300 years ? This is one of the biggest lies purported by Spencer.

Sublimer,

I'll give it a try.

According to Ibn Warraq:

Muhammad was not only a prophet. He was a statesman. He founded not only a community, but also a state and a society. He was a military leader, making war and peace, and a lawgiver, dispensing justice. Right from the beginning the Muslims formed a community that was at once both political and religious, with the Prophet himself as head of state. Right from the start in Islam there was no question of a separation between sacred and secular history, between political power and faith.

The rights enshrined in articles 18 and 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (which guarantee to all people the right to freedom of conscience and of religion, including the right to change their religion, and the right to opinions and the right to impart those opinions without interference) have been denied to minorities in Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. All three countries deny equal rights to their Bahai, Ahmadi and Shia minorities (all Muslims) and cite sharia for justification.

-------

Islam doesn't recognize the separation of church and state. Sunnis don't recognize non-Sunnis as Muslims. Shi'a believe Sunnis betrayed Ali. Given this intertwining of religion and power where is the possibility for the ruling sect to make peace with those who don't share its tenets? How do Iraqi Sunnis make peace with Iraqi Shiites without suffering a backlash from other countries in the ummah? When have the two sides ever made peace and lived side by side in freedom? Every "peaceful" period seems to have been when Muslims were being held in check by another power.

Islamic history is one of periodic persecution of various groups (Kharjite, Shiite, Ismailis, etc). Instead of being a war between Sunnis and Shiites, it's really a war between Sunnis and non-Sunnis, and it's been going on ever since that first succession struggle. It's called a civil war because it's a war for power within the ummah, with all sides seeing themselves as the rightful carrier of Muhammad's message.

Are you Sunni or Shiite?

Sublimer wrote:

"I think I've shaken your foundations enough and I am going to call it a day. Nice talking to you. bye bye."

--

So, when defeat is certain, Sublimer makes "claim to victory" and leaves the battlefield. Reminds me of Saddam after the Gulf War. Funny, but I look at this thread and I simply see a foundation that is stronger than ever. I see more posters than ever well-versed in Islamic history, the Qur'an and the tactics of Islamists; the better to counter such when confronted by them all.

Quote of the day care of Aunt Bea:

"I love it when our group turns into a bunch of f15's flying around a biplane. Keep flying gang. you never know who is reading and will see the light."

My feelings exactly.

Equivalence-seekers are not going to blind anyone here to the realities of today. For that, I'd recommend Sublimer, CAIR reps and all the other like-minded Islamists stick to going on CNN or posting over at sites like 'Dean's World' if you are seriously seeking "reverts" to your Dark Age viewpoint. Draping a throw-cloth over an 800 lb gorilla doesn't hide what's still in the room:

Islam is the Enemy.

What happened to Sublimer?

Is it really gone?

It said it was going to work a few hours ago but kept posting. Are you sure that wasn't Naseem?

There are verses of the Quran that considered historical (only historically relevant) and others that are considered immutable (forever true). You have to know which ones are which. Robert Spencer never tells the difference between the two.
Posted by: sublimer

subslimer I know you're still buzzing around.. FYI.. THAT is EXACTLY what Robert is doing. He sheds light on the duality of islam. He shows BY EXAMPLE how radical political islam bases its legitimacy directly on quotes from the Koran.

If it were up to me I'd call the non-violent moslems "radical".

refusing to kill the "infidels" - now there's a "radical" idea!

This Spengler (not the dead German, who is more a sparkless, dense literary pastiche of Nietzsche - and Hegel- than anything original) needs to read the news a little more.

His mention of Mr. Spencer's supposed stance is disingenuous and uninformed. But that never stopped a talking (or typing head) before from pontificating to further his own hobby horse cum pet theory. (In this article, in the Asia Times, he extolls the greater value of poetry than argument.)

The Koran, on its own a kind of anti-poetry, is being used, actively, as a playbook of global imperialism.

No other "holy" book is.

Analyzing and debating "why" this is happening is vital to the defense of the free world.

If he fails to grasp this necessity, he's a little weak on survival.

Good luck with the superiority complex, Speng.

Lots of "superior" folks ended up butchered by their "inferior" (dumber, but more violent and militant) neighbors (Constantinople, etc.).

"Rising above the fray" is temporarily cute, but the fray will find you.

What nightclub goer in Bali thought they were going to blown to bloody shreds?

He needs an It's the jihad, stupid! coffee mug.

Karen Armstrong is merely symptomatically handy, as one of our modern "Treason of the Intellectuals" types, being the "girl who cried sheep" [when confronted by wolves], an oleaginous apologist, and re-tread "useful idiot".

If only half of the Koran is poisonous, you still end up just as dead.

Because, unlike Mohammad's magical fly (which cured the venom of its one wing with the anti-venom on the other), the non-poisonous verses of the "Recitation" do not detoxify the violent ones.

We're trying to raise the understanding of the need for a Reformation within Islam, and until Muslims -and their fawning excusers in the infidel world- admit that there is a mortal and fatal problem with MANY of the Koran's dismal dogmas, the jihad will continue unopposed.

Pretending that it is some kind of silly semantic tussle is obtuse.

Jihadists must have their Koranic sanctification revoked.

Only Muslims will be able to accomplish this, with the encouragement of free people everywhere.

And if they do not, the jihad will have to be violently responded to, and destroyed. And Islam isn't then going to be seen as anything but the violent jihad's ultimate source.

Which won't leave Muslims, in general, looked upon with much trust, or sympathy.

Oswald Spengler's idea of the "Decline of the West" was meant as much to be a prod against it as much as an examination of it.

A dissection of the Koran's claims as the origin of the "Rise of the Ummah" through "holy" war is no less important.

The poet Adonis (whose "Arab Poetics" I've read and enjoyed) reaches almost no one. And remains unable to influence. The last poet popularly listened to was probably Allen Ginsberg. And he was ultimately ineffectual. A nice guy, but poetry isn't the "legislator of the world", unacknowledged or otherwise.

Offering this as some kind of "alternative" is aggressively naive.

The bombs of jihadists are all the epic verse we have to hear.

And you don't need metrical feet when you can find people's real feet ...blown-off and scattered along the red-spattered railroad tracks of Madrid or London.

Jihad is odd.
Its "God"
A pod.

' I am not here to ask you to convert.'

'I am just sharing with you other quotes that give you a different picture of Islam'-

Why? WHY???

We don't need a 'different picture of Islam'- Muhammed worshippers have to get in touch with reality or ship out.

What we really need is massive internment an deportations of every Muhammedan hatepreacher, (don't tell me there aren't any) an end to da'awa, mosques and madrassahs and a giant, relentless anti-Islam propaganda campaign that doesn't let up until the cult is totally discredited and implodes.

Impossible?

Not at all. We havn't even started yet!

"I just don't want you to see in Islam a book of absolute hate. It isn't."

sublimer, unfortunately, actions speak louder than words, and the worst of Islam seems to be the ones whose actions speak the loudest. I hope someday the best of Islam can be the face the world sees. There is no doubt that Islam, like all religions is not some monolithic block. Some can see that despite the more obvious fanatics.

Spencer does a great service I think in forcing Islam to question itself; something that one has to admit it has done very little of over the years. No doubt some Christians didn't like it either when it happened to them but it still happened and continues to happen. Now it's Islam's turn.

Ladies and gentlemen,

why in the world are you wasting time and effort “debating” a Mohammedan about Islam? What do you hope to accomplish? Are you trying to corner a taquyian warrior with facts and truth? Excuse me, but that is, per definition, impossible. If I live by producing counterfeited money would I stop doing so if you can prove to me my dollars are not authentic?

Any discussion presupposes a basic common ground. The minimum required is common perception of reality. When we want to talk about Islam and the danger it poses for the survival of our civilization it is important that we somehow align our standards, especially moral ones. We have to agree on what is good and evil, truth and lie, right and wrong and so on…

I admit I do enter such discussions occasionally, but prior to it I want to know if my partner shares my perception of right and wrong, good an evil.
So I ask a simple question: “do you share my opinion that Mohammed was a pig?”

If I don’t hear a clear “yes!” then I’m not interested in further communication, because it indicates our totally irreconcible difference of moral standards.

I could just as well asked “do you think Charles Manson, or Hitler, or Lenin were murderous monsters?”, but in the context of islam the example of Mohammed is more relevant.

Here's my shorthand reading of Spengler: The equating of Robert and Karen Armstrong in mutual dismissal is inexcusable. However, Spengler has made these kind of remarks before in regard to debates about doctrine and history, that they accomplish nothing because, for him, the real question is: "What is the spiritual experience of a believing Muslim today?" (hence he'd rather listen to poets, I agree this is dilettante) His answer is despair, existential threat, the unhappiness that Islam's promise of success has eluded Muslims. A crisis of faith. Spengler is not just the prophet of dying civilizations in the case of Western Europe, which he considers a goner, but to him the Muslim world is facing extinction too "Islamic life is dying, but far more slowly than the senile civilization of Western Europe. The Islamist revival responds to the Muslim countries failure to adapt to the modern world." He even wrote that Jihad is now the equivalent of the Eucharist for Muslims, the one sacred encounter with God left to them as traditional life devolves.

"Although the Muslim birthrate today is the world's second highest it is falling faster than the birthrate of any other culture. By 2050 the population growth will converge on that of the US. The average growth rate of per capita income in the Arab world is worse than anywhere but sub-Saharan Africa. Half of Arab women cannot read. 15% of the Arab workforce is unemployed, doubling by 2010. Among Muslim states, Iran has seen the future most clearly. Life as Iranians know it is coming to an end. Iran stands at the precipice of a demographic and economic tailspin. At current depletion rates Iran will no longer export oil a generation hence and it's subsidy heavy economy will fail just as an entire generation retires. For this reason, Iran has embarked upon imperial expansion...In Iran, Algeria and others the fertility rate is expected to fall below two children per mother (the replacement rate) The collapse of traditional society has brought about a collapse of birth rates across culture."

"Islam was founded as a theocracy. Is it possible for Islam to reform? Pope Benedict XVI has let it be known that he does not believe Islam can reform: "its an eternal word. It's there for eternity the way it is. There's no possiblilty of adapting it or interpreting it." The Archangel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohammad, according to Islamic doctrine. How does one criticize the word of God without rejecting its divine character? The leading Muslim authorities are unanimous that Islam is in no need of reform. It is dangerous to publish anything that Muslims might interpret as blasphemy. Strange as it may seem, the Pope must whisper when he wants to state agreement with conventional Muslim opinion, namely that the Koranic prophecy is fixed for all time such that Islam cannot reform itself. If Islam cannot change then a likely outcome will be civilizational war, something too horrific for US leaders to contemplate...Born in militancy, Islam among the world's religions offers a unique justification for conquest. The war that Islam will offer the West in its final throes will be a tragic terrible and prolonged war that cannot be avoided but only fought to exhaustion."

"Islam has one generation in which to turn its foothold in Western Europe into a governing power
before the effects of slowing population growth set in. Islam has enough young men, the pool of unemployed Arabs is expected to reach 25 million by 2010, to make its stand during the next 30 years. Because of mass migration to Western Europe, the worst of the war might be fought on European soil. Radical Islam may triumph yet, if only for a while, for its fighting advantage is the desperation of a doomed culture."

Spengler. Nutshell.

thomas h.,

Some just enjoy the sound of a pretentious tap-dancer trying to disguise its writhing as a Rigadoon.

He ("sublimation") lost me when he went into "liar" mode, accusing Mr. Spencer of ?lying.

You could say Robert is wrong about something, but he isn't trying to deceive.

When you try to deceive about someone who isn't, you're useless.

And no longer worth listening to.

Allahfanculo,

If the Muslims invade the United States you have all the right to pick up arms and expel them. But if you think immigration is invasion, you must be a little confused. If that's your parameter, you would have to fight the Mexicans first, the Indians second, the Chinese and then maybe the Jews and the Muslims.
Posted by: sublimer

Then consider Americans in Afghanistan and in Iraq "immigrants", too.

Look how you're sneaking in moslems into the same sentence as Jews... as if you have sooooo much in common.

Let me explain something to you, subslimer. There's a difference between immigration and dawa.

When they start building foot basins for Mexicans - and ONLY Mexicans - with PUBLIC money to wash their feet in then we will reach a higher level of animus.

This particular forum isn't about Mexicans or Indians or anyone else. It is about moslems who attack the rest of the world each and every day.

Ahhh... the slick rhetorical shenanigans of the moslems! Words.. ideas.. anything is tradeable in the bazaar of relativity.

subslimer, you see.. we have the right to pick up arms and expel those who plan and plot against us. I don't care how they got into our countries. Some may have come on real visas.. bought by Sowdi oil money. Like the 16000 "students" from SA. Others may be here on fake passports or by lying on an asylum request. Even others have simply crossed our open borders with Canada and Mexico.

While it is against the law right now to pick up arms and expel these people all bets are off should these jihadists begin to engage in anything but sporadic violence as they are doing at this time.

See the Utah Mall jihadist and the beltway snipers.. and the Automobile-assassin jihadists in North Carolina and San Fran.

The daily violence by islamos against the citizens of France, Germany, Britain, Australia and beyond is beginning to wear thin, as the French elections go to show.

So yes, we are already under attack. They just start ever so slightly and then ratchet up the pressure until we will resemble the Balkans someday.

And if we don't watch out we will resemble SOWdiarabia in the future.

I consider us under attack at this time, subslimer and I am waiting for the rest to catch up with my assessment.

When that happens you will be rooting for a Sarkozy type to win aywhere in the West. Because the alternative will be a whole lot worse for moslems.

For now, Sarko represents the hope that Europeans are beginning to wake from our slumber...

Like Nazeem said elsewhere.. you do NOT want those infidels to rouse and stir.

HOLGER DANSKER - VÅNGNER!!

sublimer,

"Remote_Control .... No semantics : I don't believe that Islam is superior to Christianity. I don't believe in supremacism."

Christianity enshrines the belief that Jesus is God. Islam enshrines the belief that this Christian belief is an expression of Shirk (associating partners with the one God), which is considered in Islam to be a crime worse than murder. If that isn't an expression of relative inferiority/superiority vis-à-vis the Truth about the most important thing in life, I don't know what is. Whatever Islam you think you are following, it is not the one of the Koran and Muslims throughout history.

"In Sura 2:62 it states: "Those who believe [in the Qur’an], and those who follow the Jewish [scriptures], and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

As another poster above noted, this kind of apparently accomodating verse in the Koran is predicated upon the Christians and Jews in question to practice a "proper" monotheism which would perforce have to fall in line with the Islamic view of what is proper monotheism: the Islamic view is that Christians and Jews are custodians of the Islamic truth which goes back to Adam and Eve (who were really Muslims) and to their Creator Yahhweh who is really Allah, but that these Christian and Jewish custodians perversely and wickedly corrupted this truth which Allah had given them. Thus, declarations in the Koran like the one you quoted are merely saying, "We embrace and support Christians and Jews as long as they follow the truth Allah gave them and not the wicked perversions of that truth which they in their wickedness developed over time -- and which the vast majority of them practice and believe."

And this is not counting that other "crime" of Shirk which the vast majority of mainstream Christians practice and believe: the Trinity (integrally related, theologically speaking, to the divinity of Jesus, of course).

Just to pick a few key passges from the Koran that establish the superiority of Islam and the relative inferiority of Christianity and Judaism:

The condition for being a "good" Christian or Jew: 5:12 -- [Allah made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel, saying:] If ye establish worship and pay the poor-due, and believe in My messengers [the latest and greatest being Mohammed, of course] and support them, and lend unto Allah a kindly loan, surely I shall remit your sins, and surely I shall bring you into Gardens underneath which rivers flow.

5:17 -- They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary.

5:72 -- They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners [yushrik = Shirk] unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

5:73 -- They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

24:55 -- Allah hath promised such of you as believe and do good work that He will surely make them to succeed [sociopolitically] They [the Believers] serve Me. They ascribe no thing as partner [yushrikoona = Shirk] unto Me. Those who disbelieve henceforth, they are the miscreants.

35:39 -- And the disbelief of the disbelievers adds nothing but hatred with their Lord [alternate translations into English for "hatred" include "abhorrence" and "odium", equally strong words]

31:24 -- We [Allah] shall let them [the Unbelievers] enjoy themselves for a while; then shall We drive them to a severe torment.

You know that there are 30,000 murders a year in the US. I am not asking you as a christian to justify all those murders. that would be preposterous.
Posted by: sublimer

Hmmmmm.. then why do you bring it up? Folks, this is another one of their techniques.

They bring up something that could be somehow related but which we all know that it isn't. They do this so that you will spend your time figuring out how to wipe away the spiderwebs of deliberate confusion and clear the fog of obfuscation.

Then they say that they would *NEVER* bring up something like that - thereby implying that only such *unreasonable* folks like us would relate murder to the "religion of peace".

"WE [meaning the islamos] would NEVER equate Christianity or Judaism with murder."

Horseshit.

I am wasting my time going through this mental horseshit because it is a good way to illuminate their techniques.

Nick Danger-

Agreed about "Spengler".

And I would say this to his (and Adonis's) thesis:

Tell that to the Muslims (or "Arabs")!

I sense that they think of themselves as on the upswing.

And no gloom and doom poet or his enamored reviewer are going to derail a suicide bomber from his appointment with hell.

Or tame the demographic tsunami of the Ummah on the march.

This kind of wishful thinking doesn't help the fight for our survival.

Always assume you enemy is strong enough to be deadly until they're dead.

(And don't forget that death throes can kill, as well.)

sublimer,

Please see my response to your quotation of 2:62.

Guys, I'm terribly disappointed that you weren't so coherent and devastating as you usually are in destroying these tired old arguments from people like "sublimer" who are oh-so-nuanced.

Firstly, The entire focus on one single Quranic quote is such a transparent red herring!! The entiiiiire focus of JW argument is the non-repudiation (or repudiability?) of Jihad as a manifest pillar of Islam from its conception, as evolved and canonized in every major sunni or shia school of thought, expounded by every major respected jurist/scholar, and manifested throughout the nearly 1400 years of history.
Why the hell was there a need for sophomoric name-calling and rhetorical cheapshots?? Surely, we can do better and we usually do.

Why not simply quote all the major respected scholars from antiquity uptil now?? Ibn Kathir? Ibn Khaldun? HELLO?? And Al Azhar University? (not any random lunatic as mr shrewd seems to cleverly portray in his "democratization of the airwaves" argument). And why not tell this gentleman that Head Imams of Mecca and Medina have been spewing all the jihad rhetoric and supremacism not some round-the-corner shaikh in Lahore or Algiers.

Why not just quote what happens to alternative Muslim schools of thought that actually repudiate Jihad and follow the Christian missionary model (a.k.a the Ahmadiyya movement) in Muslim countries? Why has takfeer been pronounced on them almost everywhere?

Why not show elaborate laws from antiquity to very modern times in Iran where Jews are relegated to indoors during rain so that a raindrop may not bounce off a Jew onto a Muslim, making him unclean??

The evidence is soooo overwhelming and comprehensive from the theological, interpretive to the historial, sociological and political, there simply is no need to even invoke or dignify tu-quote arguments with Christianity.

Here's hoping we can smash the oh-so-nuanced self-deceiving trolls like "sublimer" next time with dispassionate accuracy.

Spengler wrote in his article:

"The available literature on Islam consists mainly of a useless exchange of Koranic citations that show, depending on whether one is Karen Armstrong or Robert Spencer, that Islam is loving or hateful, tolerant or bigoted, peaceful or warlike, or whatever one cares to show. It is all so pointless and sophomoric; anyone can quote the Koran, or for that matter the Bible, to show whatever one wants."

Here Spengler makes a surprising invitation to intellectual suicide by denying that the Koran really says anything at all or, if it does, then it is infinitely elastic and can be made to say whatever one wants. His relativist, obscurantist attitude is not uncommon. He implies that we can have no real basis for forming a reasoned and evidence-based judgement as to which interpretation among competitors is more accurate and consistent with the textual content overall. In effect, he's saying that the Koran is like a collection of ink-blot stimuli that can be interpreted as signifying anything and, therefore, nothing in particular or in general. In his view, interpretation of the Quran tells us about the reader, but not about the content of the text.

[I should add that I believe that, if pressed, Spengler would deny that he is an obscurantist. I think he has just made an incredibly thoughtless and reckless statement in passing...but it is instructive to address it].

A second problem with Spengler's statement: He overlooks the many extra-Quranic sources of evidence, presented routinely, pertaining to Muslims' various beliefs and policies that are based on the Quran. A complete assessment incorporates at least the following sources:

1. Hadith, Sira, tafsir, etc.
2. Islamic Laws.
3. Examples from Islamic history.
4. Present situation and policies, recent history, news.
5. Statistics and other evidence on Muslims' beliefs.

There is a fact of the matter here. Each of the above sources contains evidence that can weigh in on any question regarding the interpretation of the Quran or Muslims' present day beliefs. Granted, the Quran contains many ambiguous verses, but often there is not an equal amount of evidence pertaining to any interpretation of any given issue.

One can not quote the Koran to show that...

Non-Muslims, including those who do good works, will escape hell-fire punishment.

Non-Muslims will not and should not be punished in this world.

Non-Muslims should not be ruled by Allah's laws.

The institution of slavery should be abolished; Muslims should not acquire more slaves.

Rape of non-Muslim female captives and slaves (owned by Muslims) is forbidden.

Husbands are not permitted to beat their wives from whom they fear disobedience.

Women should inherit the same amount as men.

There is a lower limit on the marriageable age of females.

There is at least one non-Muslim who is good, or smart, or mentally/spiritually healthy.

Non-Muslims and Muslims are of equal status and have equal rights.

Muslims should be genuine friends with non-Muslims who refuse Islam.

There is a positive adjective to refer to disbelievers.

Muslims should not kill or punish blasphemers, apostates, and hypocrites.

Muslims should ask questions about the Quran.

Muslims must separate religion and politics.

Islam should be equal (not prevail over, conquer, etc.) to all other religions.

Religious differences cannot be used in justifying physical fighting and warfare.

...etc., etc.

Quijybo:

Exactly. This is the strangest, off-the-mark thread at JW ever. And to think that Hugh himself swallowed the bait....I'm going to punish him in my dreams with challenges to his knowledge of modern Tibetan language.

profitsbeared:
Perfect analysis.

Personally, I'd consider the centuries long conflict between the Ottomans and the Safavids and the Iran-Iraq war that took up most of the 1980's as Sunni-Shia conflicts.

Tushar Saxena:
I agree with you.

Some people here were looking at sublimer as something purely bad, instead of as an opportunity to sharpen our debating skills. But surely we need to be able to function effectively in non-virtual public forums, where sometimes people will argue as she does -- I suspect that sublimer is a she -- and where it will be of dubious value to respond to such arguments with ad hominen, angry impatience, insults, etc. When we do that, at best we look good only in our own eyes. We won't impress neutral observers who need to be convinced.

It seems to me the most effective thing is the kind of comment you posted, or the way Robert Spencer writes, and the way the more calm, dispassionate logical and factual folks on this thread argued against sublimer. Too much anger and aggression make a person shoot from the hip in arguing, and few people can hit a target like that, though it's little noticed if one flubs it, because one has ten or fifteen allies on the thread and only a single adversary trying to juggle five or ten arguments.

It's too easy in this setting (where 19 of 20 on the thread are on our side) to get away with such shoot-from-the-hip angry arguments and insults. We won't always find ourselves in fora where 20 of us are all arguing with one single person. It isn't good enough to angrily declare that we don't need to prove anything, because it's so obvious what Islam is. There are a lot of people, people who visit this website, for whom it is not at all obvious what Islam is, and they will not be impressed, most of them, by angry impatience and short shrift arguments. They need to be convinced, if one gives a damn about winning in a struggle with Islam.

Some said they couldn't understand why we "waste our time" with her (sublimer), or why Robert "wastes his time" debating Watcher. I have rarely learned so much from Robert as I did by reading his debate with Watcher. And Spencer and Fitzgerald both seem to have felt that the debate with Watcher turned into a little educational masterpiece. I agree.

To me sublimer was a good opportunity for practice. In a way, she was even an ally, throwing lots of silly soft balls and the occasional curve. She was almost like a coach relentlessly lobbing punches at his boxers in training.

To all this that I am saying, one commenter made a decent preemptive counterargument (which I I disagree with in this case) that there has to be some basic moral agreement with a person before discussion with that person has any value. Thus we can just dismiss her and ignore her. But I think part of this tussle with Islam will require people like us, if we are to be effective in debate, to learn to debate civilly people with whom we have very strong moral disagreements. I understand that anger and outrage can sometimes be unavoidable and even salutary, but usually calm logic and facts are the most devastating answer one can give.

Of course if one lacks sufficient facts to effectively counter an argument, it can be tempting to try to counter it with such inadequate facts as one does have, smeared with distracting dollops of anger, insult, sarcasm, etc. But it would be better, it seems to me, to resist that temptation and instead go study up on the facts.

As far as I can tell, sublimer is nothing more than a pseudo-intellectual Muslim trying to use pomposity over substance. His arguments were weak. He failed to score a single point. He misused many of the multi-syllable words he was trying so hard to toss out at the readers here, and quite frankly, his misinterpretations of my own arguments as well as those of others were either intentional or dimwitted.

I fail to see how there really was a need to "sharpen our debate" on such a soft stone.

Mr Spencer,
Don’t you ever tire of rebutting morons, yes morons… harsh but true? Robert Spencer, just a brave man telling the truth. And they are hunting him, he has fatwads against him. Well I will tell you islamists, you harm one hair, THAT’S ONE HAIR on his head, and I and many others will hunt you down and cut your fucking heads off, pricks!
You don’t have to answer, I know your enemies would jump on linking you to me. Make no mistake even when I am gone there are others ready to take my place, endless numbers. That is the trouble with us free westerners, we keep coming and coming and coming.

Aside from all the mumbo jumbo in the koran about muslims duty to kill the jews,every last one,another reason for the Palistinians and the arab world as a whole to kill the jews,every last one, is because they are embarrased and ashamed.

Think about it.They up and left because the plan was for an attack to retake Israel and kill all the jews.Then the battle was lost and they wrere all left out in the cold.

They removed themselves and lost everything over thier failed attempt to gain it all.THATS JUSTICE.

They are upset,embarrased,ashamed,un manly,disgraced,humiliated.

And they did it to themselves.Becuase they didn't want to live in peace or with anything other than islam.

Israel provides for the Palistinians and the west provide for the Palistinians,the islamic states provide nothing but more war material.

Palistine is the drag on Israel,thats all it exists for is to continuously nag Israel and wear them down.Then IF that were to ever happen,where Israel just gets too tired of it all then and only then will the "hero" swoop in and finish her off.The hero being which ever head of the same snake gets the first chance at it.

Until then the arab world wishes Palistine to remain the wasteland and "oppressed" charity case that it is.

The facts are the land is Israels and much more land than what it has.But the land it has now is it's land mostly due to victories in battle.Thats the something that sticks in the lunatics craw.They lost it and CAN NOT seem to gain it back.

Islam can cry over it's lost territory all it wishes but you know what you can't win them all.

I find it utterly hilarious that a whole ocean(umma) cannot drown a drop of water(israel-life).

Islam is a joke AND for losers.It just might want to get used to that taste of defeat because i think the lunatics have started too many battles in the wrong kind of war.A holy war.

Islams actions upon the world is kin to SUBLIMER walking into a room and slapping each and every person in that room in the face.

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!

khaybar oasis-

Well and thoroughly put.

ovidus_naso-

I thought this character "sublimber" was going to avoid bald-faced lying, but I guess it's the inevitable refuge of the blind defender of the indefensible.

What fools like this don't understand is:

it's unnecessary.

He didn't have to insult Mr. Spencer and call him a liar to make his own "truthful" points. It's just the predictable robotic agenda taking over. (The infantile insults and triumphalistic juvenalia are also par for the same old dogmatic course.)

There's an old, very funny sci-fi story titled "The Best Policy", about how you can win an argument, or even save your world, by being strictly truthful (with some cunning).

Lying always trips up the liar, no matter how fancy the footwork.

It's easier to be honest.

And usually more fun.

This thread reminds me of one of those dog track races with the mechanical rabbit.

The gates spring open and out charge the dogs. The 'rabbit on a rail' is simultaneously activated and flies ahead at a speed calculated so that the fastest dog can never quite catch it.

Even if the rabbit does get caught, as sometimes happens in the case here, what difference does it make? It's not a real rabbit and the dogs do not enjoy a real meal.

Stop chasing sublimer's rabbit unless you just like the exercise.

Very animated thread until someone has to start with the blood thirsty threats of violence...

Tushar

I agree with Foehammer. If you check out Sublimer's post at 2:38, you will see that his response there was more of a smart-ass response, given that he had been given his answer as to what drives the civil war in Iraq. And I don't see how his tu quoque arguments about how Christians are hypocrites for following the Old Testament was worth a response: Christians don't claim that Jews corrupted the Old Testament; instead, they added the New Testament and let some of its rules override some of the rougher edges of the Old Testament. However, the New Testament, AFAIK, does not question the faith of Jews in the way the Quran does of both Jews and Christians.

There are other threads where we've battled Sublime. Check out the threads on Spencer vs Armstrong in Financial Times, Jihadi poaching to raise funds and Emory U's Religious Left if you want more examples of more battles. Tu Quoque seems to be his main weapon: in the Emory U thread, he uses the examples of the Irgun, the Tamil Tigers and the PFLP (a Christian Palestinian terror organization) as his examples of non-Muslim terror organizations (the comment seems to have been deleted). Check it out.

I welcome any opportunities to sharpen our debating skills. Sometimes, it'll be along the tracks that you outline above. Sometimes, it can be done with a rope a dope i.e. playing along with his assumptions and assertions, and then luring him to the corner of a precipice. Actually, I take Sublimer at his word when he states that he isn't a supremacist, but that misses the point about whether Islam is or not. But he was fun to debate, and not so much of a pain as Watcher, or some of the other Islamic debators we've had in the past.

The civil war between the Shites and Sunni's. Who will take the title of Antichrist? The Antichrist will take his seat of authority in Babylon (Iraq). Mahdi is seated for a short period...very short! His power comes from Satan...but Satan cannot outdo God. So God takes control of this dragon and whips his buns well before he goes into pit's of hell. The dragon manipulates the minds Of Islamic's and Islamic's are so confused, they will kill themselves. Russia will be holding hand's with the Islamic's during this time...but a hook is placed into his nose and many of Russian's fall with the Islamic's. Only 1/6 will be left of the Russians to go back home dragging their feet. They just witnessed the power of God at work. Bye bye Russia and bye bye Islamics.

Strangely, but there is no Morgaan Sinclair to comment this.

They use it if they believe in it or not. MoBlow good point! What a list! Awful! Speaks volumes!

traeh said

Some people here were looking at sublimer as something purely bad, instead of as an opportunity to sharpen our debating skills. [...] Some said they couldn't understand why we "waste our time" with her (sublimer), or why Robert "wastes his time" debating Watcher. I have rarely learned so much from Robert as I did by reading his debate with Watcher.

I read Robert's patient and overwhelming responses to Watcher; they were extremely informative, both in their content and as an excellent example of how to respond to persons who use tactics such as Watcher's. Like you, I learned alot from it.

But, I think I would learn alot by reading Robert or Hugh debate a rocking chair. Whatever value there was in the debate against Watcher was generated by Robert; Watcher acts only as a hapless straight-man, setting up Robert's responses.

Similarly for sublimer. I challenge anyone to find any statement of intellectual value in sublimer's postings above.

Speaking for myself, I didn't say that our responding to sublimer was a waste of time; I said that sublimer is wasting our time with the usual ad hominem, tu quoque, and taqiyyah techniques. We can always create something of value in responding to a valueless post. But I have to wonder about the motivation for a devout Muslim to come to JW/DW and getting us to focus on them rather than the topic at hand. Does sublimer think that we will change our mind based on the brilliant case presented by sublimer? If not, what is their motivation?

I can just see nariz cheering 'sublimer' on in this one. I'm sure he had a nice, Long list of Christian evils he would have liked to post in response to Mr. Spencer's statements...

It is a toss-up as to whether 'sublimer' is a waste of time or not. It certainly gives new readers coming in a good idea of how well-educated the posters on this site are- that is to say, Far better than 'sublimer.'

Whatever happened to Naseem? She is Far better and much more enjoyable to read.

The reason why Christians accept the OT or Hebrew Scriptures as well as the NT or Greek Scriptures is because of the prophecies that got realized by Jesus Christ.

I think it is disingenuous for the first string to show up after half time and complain that while there were no referees were AWOL and the second string tackled the opposing teams mascot.

We are supposed to let stand unchallenged ludicrous assertions? And exactly how does THAT educate newcomers to the site, much less the mascot's cheerleaders? Are we supposed to let them think he scored a goal? Factually errant unchallenged assertions only serve to discredit the thread unless the mods simply remove them, and clearly there is not the staff to do it.

What some miss in the psychology of trolls is that their "power" is derived from corrupting the thread by asking questions. Overturning this requires evoking responses with pre-emptive questions (sure, preferably on topic), and thereby exposing their insufficient knowledge base and making irrelevant their pre-planned (likely pre-written) counterarguments. Should these be elegant or elaborate. Well, sure, if you've got your pre-written diatribes handy like many here have. But if you're going to spend a half hour composing it, the troll's cheerleaders were done squealing a long time back.

Personally, I would ban the trolls. Post off-topic, construct an ad hominem or lie, and you're gone. But until then, it is fun tackling the mascot.

I keep reading articles where our Muslim friends quote philosophers of ancient Greece as well as modern times. So lets keep it in perspective, if Islam had conquered Europe these quoted philosophers would have all been put to death for heresy and apotasy and just plain thinking. Nobody would know their names unless it began with imam or muhammed.

I think there is value in responding to genuine dissenters who come here and post honest dissent.

I also think that trolls and mechanical rabbits like sublimer are quickly uncovered as such and should not have so much time and energy wasted on them. It gives them exactly what they want.

Plus I doubt that any open-minded newcomers are going to still be reading a thread like this one even halfway to where we are now, especially when it's chasing in circles (due to troll sophistry), and thus any educational value is minimal. So it's basically just the jw junkyard dawgs (no shame in that) chasing after one delighted troll.

Yes there have been some good posts made, and there is value in rebutting falsehoods. But the stuff getting rebutted here isn't worthy of such attention because it's not in my opinion genuine or honest.

Not trying to censor anyone so if it (subliar) returns then chase away if Ye feel like it, but just don't imagine that anyone other than you and the rabbit are still at it.

Over and Out.

Re: sublimer

I was disappointed that sublimer didn't answer my simple question put to him/her on the Emory thread. Perhaps he overlooked it, or she considered it beneath her dignity, I don't know. I merely wanted the short sweet answer to what sublimer thought Muhammed's message was. Sublimer said those who imitate Muhammed were "stupid people" that were making him out to be more than just a man with a message.

I can understand why maybe sublimer didn't want to answer, why make an honest exposition of cherished beliefs if you think they may be sneered at.

But I really wanted to hear from a Westernized moderate Muslim what they think Muhammad has to tell us in the here and now. I know I could go to any Muslim site and ask or look it up, but I don't want a preprepared statement. I was trying for a gut-level, unrehearsed response.

Now this is where I tie the off-topic to the topic...
Spengler seems to put more stock in the gut-level (or the right brained, emotive,) observations of the poet than the logical dissecting of text that Spencer does, and Armstrong pretends to do.

This poet grew up steeped in that culture and religion. He considers his life and emotes...doom, death, darkness. Spengler seems to think there is more honesty in this.

I happen to think that both the logical and the emotive are worthy indicators of the problem with Islam and the cultures steeped in it. I think it says a lot that the poet and Spencer seem to agree.

I regret Robert Spencer’s annoyance at my criticism, but I have to stick by my point: you learn a lot more about Islam by reading Adonis, who criticizes Islam from the inside, than you do from Spencer (or Fallaci, Bat Ye’or, and a dozen other writers) who attack it from the outside. There are a billion and half Muslims, of whom some hundreds of millions support violence against unbelievers. The Koran is not a self-help book, nor it is it a political manifesto; it is an existential stance with respect to the world. Adonis’ poetry as well as his criticism helps us to get inside the mind of Arabs. The sort of thing that Spencer does, despite his estimable intentions, is just not adequate to the task at hand. I hate to be harsh towards anyone, and I have a very high regard for Spencer, but we are in a crisis, and need to use the best tools available to deal with it. Muslims are not comic-book villains. They are human beings in profound anguish, many of whom turn desperate and destructive. I am not saying this can be solved with therapy! One has to meet violent force with superior violent force, period. But in order to defeat your enemy, you first have to get inside his mind, and that requires empathy. Ticking off the bad guy’s bad points doesn’t do the job.

36 posted on 05/08/2007 8:28:34 AM PDT by Spengler

Found this on freerepublic.com

From Spengler's response posted above by mal123

"The sort of thing that Spencer does, despite his estimable intentions, is just not adequate to the task at hand. I hate to be harsh towards anyone, and I have a very high regard for Spencer, but we are in a crisis, and need to use the best tools available to deal with it. Muslims are not comic-book villains."

Not adequate by itself, but very necessary. We need to use ALL tools available. Spencer and Adonis. I don't see Spencer characterizing anyone as a comic book villain.

And I don't think you need to be an Arab to be able to empathize. You just have to be a person, and willing to see the other guy as a person.

Robert Spencer writes: "a close examination of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures and how they have been interpreted, as compared to the Qur'an and how Muslims have interpreted it, shows that the texts are by no means equal in their capacity to incite to violence."
I am not so sure that this is correct, and that it's a good idea to compare Koran and Bible in order to show that one is less cruel and violent than the other. It isn't, as far as I'm concerned. To take an example: the book of Joshua, in which God instructs the Israelites to exterminate all inhabitants of the Canaanite kingdoms because they are infidels -- most bloody Holy War, most cruel jihad! -- has been used by Christians as an excuse for mass-murdering "unbelievers". These Christians include Spanish colonists in what is now called Latin America, and Puritans in what is now the USA. The difference is that this kind of use of holy texts has largely (but not completely) vanished in Christendom -- the Spanish Inquisition is dead and gone -- while it is still in full swing in Islam.

It's useful to point out to "Spengler" that Jihadwatch polemics is never directed against the early medieval texts per se -- but I wish Robert Spencer would abide by this, his own, principle. Comparing the ancient texts in order to show that in the final analysis YHWH is just that bit less cruel and inhumane than Allah is a divagation from Robert's usual tactics that I, for one, would deplore, because it is not helpful in the struggle against Islamist cruelty that we face today. I admire Spencer's (and Fitzgerald's) articles, and as a non-theist I would be disappointed to see any kind of Christian (or Jewish) apologetics creeping in.

The question of insiders/outsiders is, of course, extremely important. But it is all relative to where you are and who you target. Hugh has done an admirable job in detailing the multiple errors committed by Westerners in Arab/Muslim majority cultures. Westerners have a habit of projecting their cultural assumptions onto the target group, and totally misreading a situation. This happens in Iraq on a daily basis (you can use precisely the same words, but a wholly different meaning may be conveyed when speaking to an Islamified individual.) This is not to demonize anyone, it's just reality. So, understanding how the target group thinks (or attempting to gain an insiders' understanding), is important.

But, this is not the "end all." There is also the mirror phenomenon of Muslims (minority community) in the West. Thus, one needs a Spencer to convey and educate those in the West about aspects of Islam (which large portions of the Westerner world are wholly ignorant of).

There are "insiders" (pro-Jihad -- Islamists, for example) and "insiders" (anti-Jihad -- secular Muslims); there are "outsiders" (pro-Jihad -- certain Christian groups, for example) and "outsiders" (anti-Jihad - Spencer, etc.). You then get the various permutations / alignments of these groups/individuals. so, for example, you could have a pro-Jihad "insider" speaking with another pro-Jihad "outsider" (in the context of the west, this could be an Islamist speaking to a Marxist or a Christian "pacifist"). And, of course, the situation only increases in complexity as one considers that the categories are not air-tight, but are much more likely to exist on a continuum.

About "getting inside people's heads" -- this is only useful if one wishes to change the thinking of some group or influence an opinion..I think the one post which blows the others away was that posted by "MoBlows" which listed the violent attacks in a three month period. Doesn't matter in the least what the Koran says or what's in their heads (on one level anyway) -- since the murderous actions speak far more forcefully than anything spoken/written.

Gary -- I haven't seen any posts from Nariz in months. Have you? Perhaps he went in search of greener pastures; or maybe he started his own website entitled, Christian Watch.

Tushar Saxena,

I agree that all those sources which you mention (Islamic history, law, schools, present-day conflicts, etc.) should be shown or cited to refute Islamic apologetics, be they from Muslims here or from the mainstream media sources, popular writers, politicians, etc.

Unfortunately most JWers, myself included, don't have all that information at the ready, on hand. (I have some prepared rebuttals, but only a tiny fraction of what is needed). We need a Handbook for Infidel Debaters (see Hugh's post last year on this) which compiles the most relevant facts and arguments for refuting each of the common Islam-apologetic claims. Some posters here are working on precisely such a project here.
The index of claims to be rebutted is here.

The goal of that project is to make a concise yet sufficiently comprehensive resource that can be used to rebut the most widely-used and influential Islam apologetics. Evidence would include Islamic texts, laws, history, and evidence on present-day actions world-wide (i.e., jihad of all types), Islamization, etc.

IMO, the project should involve experts like Spencer, Bostom, Warraq, et al. But all those experts are quite busy working on other important projects. For now, it is up to a handful of concerned citizens (non-experts) to try and put something together in their limited spare time. It is incredible to me that we (Islam critics generally) are still at this stage, now almost six years post 9/11, without a Handbook that refutes the common Islam-apologetic claims.

Spengler is just another idiot letting the jihadist murderers off the hook by clouding this issue (not to mention his own complicity) with phony 'existential' talk.

So we're in crisis? Absolutely true. He managed to get that right (maybe a three-year old clued him in). Spengler will be of absolutely no help in getting us out of it either-- that's for sure.