"At the moment our country is a battle field for the defence of Arabness and of Islam..." Here again we hear the charge that the West is attacking Islam. Western officials have said they are bringing freedom to the Middle East, and insist that they are not fighting against Islam. People like Al-Sadr in the Islamic world sees any proffered freedom that does not involve submission to Allah's law as worthless or worse, and the very offer of it as a challenge to the political and social aspects of Islam. These two sides are talking past each other. The West might be able to make some headway by capitalizing upon the large disaffection with strict application of Sharia in the Islamic world, and stating its vision of the dignity of all human beings before God as a positive alternative to the institutionalized subjugation of women and non-Muslims, but in this multiculturalist fog, that will never happen.
"Iraq: Violence Can Spill Over To Neighbours, Al-Sadr Warns," from AKI, with thanks to Jeffrey Imm:
Baghdad, 8 June (AKI) - The violence Iraq is suffering will soon spread right across the region unless Arab countries help us, radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr has warned in an interview with Iraqi state television. "We Iraqis do not need anyone. It is the Arab nations that need Iraq. They need stability in Iraq because our country is part of the Arab world" he said in the interview Friday."At the moment our country is a battle field for the defence of Arabness and of Islam, and what is happening here now could occur in other countries in the Middle East" said the influential young leader....
"At the moment we are enduring an attack by the West against Islam" he added. "We refuse any foreign interference in our affairs even from a country like Iran" he concluded.
Posted by Satan...er..I meant Sadr "At the moment we are enduring an attack by the West against Islam" he added. "We refuse any foreign interference in our affairs even from a country like Iran" he concluded.
Liar, liar, pants on fire...
Sadr again..."At the moment our country is a battle field for the defence of Arabness and of Islam..."
Sound's racist to me...I did not know there was a war against "Arabness'. Just exactly is that anyway?
And once again I state the obvious: Islam is at war with us. Shouldn't we reciprocate?
I suppose we could all just surrender now and own the lies, dogma and barbarism of Islam, make harems, lots of babies and watch the world destroy itself in a Shiite vs Sunni nuclear holocaust in 100 years. Is that a better option than fighting today?
Funny...coming from a sock-puppet of a persian mOslem master in iran, which is where he gets his documented terrorist weaponry from, lecturing anyone on the dangers of the spread of "violence"?
More pot calling the kettle black I see.
Also funny how it's also 4 weeks out from their scheduled plans, too.
lol
"At the moment our country is a battle field for the defence of Arabness and of Islam, and what is happening here now could occur in other countries in the Middle East" said the influential young leader...."
Many Americans, including myself, support the notion that we can't just walk away from Iraq before it's ready to govern itself. It would make it a lot easier to retain that notion if we knew that most Iraqis wanted us there.
But when screwballs like Al-Sadr are able to enlist so much support from the Iraqi population, I wonder just what the Iraqi people really want.
I think it's time the American government insist that Iraq hold a referendum on the issue. It's time we force the people of Iraq off the fence they're sitting on and insist they tell us what they want.
The referendum should ask:
Do you support Al-Sadr's contention that the Americans are our enemies and that they should leave Iraq immediately?
OR
Do you believe that the Americans are our friends and should stay to continue helping us?
If the majority say they want us out, we should leave without looking back. No one could say we abandoned them in their time of need. We would only be respecting their sovereingty by leaving at thrir request.
If the Iraqis want to take their chances with the clerics and terrorists, that's their business, and that's fine with me. I just want them to say what it is they want. Period.
Islam is so insecure in it's own right to existence that it can't even stand on it's own without having an outside oppressor to give it justification. Further proof of it's flimsy foundations.
"The West might be able to make some headway by capitalizing upon the large disaffection with strict application of Sharia in the Islamic world..." --Robert
How large is "large"?
From a recent survey (source see below):
p. 21. “Most respondents express strong support for expanding the role of Islam in their societies, a view that is consistent with the goals of al Qaeda. Large majorities in most countries—an average of 71 percent (39% strongly)—agree with the goal of requiring ‘strict application of Shari’a law in every Islamic country.’ Pakistanis were the most enthusiastic with 79 percent agreeing. About three in four Moroccans (76%) and Egyptians (74%) also agreed. Indonesians showed the lowest support: 53 percent agreed and 40 percent disagreed.”
p. 22. “Majorities even agree with the ambitious goal ‘to unify all Islamic countries into a single Islamic state or caliphate’ (overall average 65%). Seventy-four percent of Pakistanis agreed with this goal, as did 71 percent of Moroccans and 67 percent of Egyptians. However, in Indonesia, only 49 percent agreed while 40 percent disagreed.”
p. 22. "On average 76% agreed with the aim ‘to keep western values out of Islamic countries.’"
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf
Source: Muslim Public Opinion on US Policy, Attacks on Civilians and al Qaeda. April 24, 2007. WorldPublicOpinion.org.
Only military tyrants can hold an islamic country together since a tyranical pattern of governance was set by mohammed who was a war lord and tyrant. Allah said many times in the koran that a good muslim should follow mo's actions. If the government officials and military would read the sunna and mo's bio, they would understand.
rational,
"If the majority say they want us out, we should leave without looking back."
They have said so.
61% of Iraqis support attacks against U.S.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013344.php
Nice of him to start communicating now! Why would we believe him!. He has 'intelligents' where are our soldiers?! .
We need to stop trying to be friends with these morons and just concentrate on neuralizing them. We can start by taking the oil fields (no money, no jihad). Then we can set up a secular government. Who cares if it's not representative, the less representative the better. Then we need to get our troops out of the cop-on-the-beat role where they're vulnerable, and into enclaves.
Our mission needs to shift from liberating them to liberating us.
Rational
I, like you, once thought that a stable Iraq was worth the cost of lives and resources...until I read some of those books listed in the Books section here at JW and then reading essays of Robert and Hugh.
While the topic of staying in or leaving Iraq is a bit off topic for this thread, may I suggest, if you have not done so already, read a few of Hugh's essays where very good reasons are provided for leaving Iraq now. If I were to give reasons here I would just be repeating that which has been written more authoritively in Hugh's essays. Start with this: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016228.php
Perhaps, if after reading these you still believe staying in Iraq is worthwhile you will post your views in the next of Hugh's articles where that topic is more germane to the thread.
e-mail I recieved today:
Could Not Be Said Better
Written by a housewife from New Jersey and sounds like it! This is one pissed off lady.
"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001?
Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan , across the Potomac from our
nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?
And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet?...Well, I don't. I don't care at all.
I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.
I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia
I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg 's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.
I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and
fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.
I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide
bombs.
I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.
In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.
When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college-hazing incident, rest assured: I don't care.
When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank: I
don't care.
When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being
"mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts: I don't care.
And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and -you guessed it -I don't care ! ! ! ! !
If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your e-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous
behavior!
If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities
committed by radical Musli ms happen here in our great country! And may I add:
"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem." -- Ronald Reagan
I have another quote that I would like to add AND.......I hope you forward all this.
"If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." Also by.. Ronald Reagan
One last thought for the day:
In case we find ourselves starting to believe all the anti-American sentiment and negativity, we should remember England 's Prime Minister Tony
Blair 's words during a recent interview. When asked by one of his Parliament members why he believes so much in America , he said:
"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in... And how many want out."
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:
1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.
YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON, AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM. AMEN
=========================================
Isn't it great!! Pass it on.
I for one am tired of the high philosophical standard we have set for ourselves through the president. It sounds good to western ears but it is quite another thing to middle eastern ears. IMO they don't get it. They may get it in two or three generations. We might be able to pay and see it happen if we are prepared to lower our standard of living.
I am ready for old fashion imperialism. The lefty opposition are screaming "It's the OIL!". I say let it be the oil or anything we can take that will pay what we have spent plus a profit. The way I see international politics is real simple look out for your self because no one is looking out for you.
Let's have a little scorched earth policy like Sherman did in the south. Make them feel it. Take the will and resources out, to wage war. This is the only thing they (the Islam enemy) under stand. The religion should be outlawed for the pariah it is. It does not wish to co-exist with other faiths so it should not be allowed to exit at all.
This approach would be some much simpler than the grand delusions that we seem to have gotten into about freeing people who don't know what it means to be free and by the number don't want it anyway.
Oh, I forgot to say. Don't be deceptive about taking the oil. Tell the whole world. The opposition will scream about it anyway.
Shouldn’t we reciprocate? Why yes we should. And it starts here…
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/06/mapping_sharia.html#more
“Shari’a amounts to a criminal conspiracy to overthrow the U.S. government.”
No doubt about that.
This useless two faced paragon of islamic virtue is way past his termination date.
Why is he not at room temperature ?
"If the majority say they want us out, we should leave without looking back."
They have said so.
61% of Iraqis support attacks against U.S.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/013344.php
Khaybar Oasis,
That's the whole problem. The majority of Iraqis, when polled, will tell a pollester that they want Americans to leave their country, But the same people will say, in the same poll, they want us to stay until their country is secure.
That's what confuses most Americans. We don't know what they want.
That's why I want a referendum. Maybe if they know that we'll act on the results of a referendum, they'll crap or get off the pot. They can play games with a pollester, but they can't play games with a referendum.
If the majority tell us to leave, than we can pack up and leave without any feelings of guilt.
I just want to know where the people really stand.
I only ask one thing from Iraq: That the oil reserves there, the world's fourth largest, not wind up in the hands of the jihadis. Now, I think that's an achievable goal. Perhaps if President Bush would dare to define our own interests clearly, and then had a workable plan to carry it out, he'd have more support.
If anyone stands as the face of the enemy, Al-Sadr is that face. If this was a real war, he should have been in the top ten along with Saddam and his sons. The roly poly tyrant has spewed enemy propaganda countless times including hiding under his mommy's skirts in Iran. Bang! and blame it on the insurgents.
The big Baby, crying for help. The fool has no concept of leadership. He should inspire and set examples for others to follow. Like strapping on one of those special Vests and show them how it is really done.
pvb
Yes, many have forgotten, or are forgetting. Definitely forwarding this to the sleeping multitudes.
The big Baby, crying for help. The fool has no concept of leadership. He should inspire and set examples for others to follow. Like strapping on one of those special Vests and show them how it is really done.
Posted by: flowerknife_us
This is exactly how some people would describe George Bush. LOL.
Defenestrate Sadr, and then move the Coalition forces out of the "sectarian violence" areas.
Shift them to positions where they can secure the oil fields and move some north to give aid to the Kurds, helping these relatively-decent people resist further terrorist attacks from their "Arab brothers and sister Muslims".
Let the central and southern Iraqi hystericalists try ruling by their bloody Sharia or Baathist or al-Qaeda theories, and let them learn the oldest damned lesson: chaotic violence is only controlled by orderly violence.
rational,
Good point. I went back again and looked at the other questions on the poll, and the one showing majority support for keeping U.S. military bases permanently in Iraq does complicate the interpretation of the results. (That could be understood by some to mean that Iraqis or a Muslim force would be manning the bases, though). It is possible that the questions are not sufficiently specific, and thus we see results that appear to be contradictory.
Still, complexity or no complexity, referendum or no referendum on leaving, 61% approval for attacks on the U.S.-led forces is enough.
"The West might be able to make some headway by capitalizing upon the large disaffection with strict application of Sharia in the Islamic world...but in this multiculturalist fog, that will never happen".
Who needs to capitalize on anything with them? The truth is that there is a growing indifference in the non-Muslim world to the demented nature of this belief system, and fewer and fewer non-Muslims care about democracy or tolerance on the "Arab and Muslim Street". Multiculturalism (the belief that cultures are equal) is dead (only academics don't know that). More and more non-Muslim people understand that Islam is just another (mainly Arab based) Imperialist rationalization system (like "manifest destiny" or the Aztec attitude to the Toltec, etc.) and that its resurgence is based on a geological accident.
Meanwhile, the whole issue of "global warming" is looking more and more like the "the energy crisis" of the 1970's (an appeal to motion) that will help result in the elimination of energy dependence on the Mideast. (It may be the operation of the "collective unconscious" on this matter.) That shift (re sources of energy) is going to especially shock the Muslim Mideast.
What will cause the Islamic world to change will be (as Hugh put it) "Islam and more Islam" until even they have had enough of the madness. The rage of the Muslim world is deep and that rage is based in fear, the fear of critical analysis of Islam. But the critical analysis of their belief-system is far advanced now and that is leading to the conclusion that we must become energy independent.
In the end "Islam and more Islam" in their world will change their minds or lead to their mass suicide. Who cares what they "think". They are not at the point of critical analysis at this time.
"At the moment our country is a battle field for the defence of Arabness and of Islam..."
What provokes such rage? Fear. The avant-garde here is finally going to be seen in future history as rear guard.
This useless two faced paragon of islamic virtue is way past his termination date.
Why is he not at room temperature ?
Posted by: dgene
I have also wondered why this sub-human vermin is not 6 feet under. I hope the only reason he hasn't been removed from the scene is to prevent a more capable leader from emerging. I hope there is a plan in place to justify leaving the bastard alive. But, that is probably wishful thinking on my part.
"Still, complexity or no complexity, referendum or no referendum on leaving, 61% approval for attacks on the U.S.-led forces is enough."
Khaybar Oasis,
I agree, it's getting to be disgusting. I just don't want anyone to say that we abandoned then in their hour of need. I suppose, secretly, want them to tell us to get out. No one could fault us then when the place turns into a killing field, and what a relief it would be to be officially kicked out of that lunatic asylum.
Rational and Khaybar
Why should the decision of whether US troops should stay or not be predicated on whether the Iraqis themselves support the continuation of such a presence? Just leave, and let them get into a civil war. Base any remaining US troops in Israel, not Qatar or Kuwait, and strike Iraq or Syria or anywhere else if and when any of the places nearby become a haven for anti-Infidel terror activity (anti-Shia or anti-Sunni terror activity shouldn't count).
Be gentle, everyone I'm a virgin to this. I remember seeing sad'r 3 years ago on tv with u.s.marines standing over him told to do nothing . I wonder how much hindsight our defense department has about this creep and wish they would have made him disappear then. Wow! that felt good.Thanks, guys.
IP,
"Why should the decision of whether US troops should stay or not be predicated on whether the Iraqis themselves support the continuation of such a presence?"
It shouldn't; at least not as a major consideration.
On the other hand, if the majority of Iraqis wanted the U.S. and coalition there in order to help set up a non-Islamic western-style government and legal system, then we might take that into account. Given that that isn't the case, and that they overwhelmingly want Islamic government and law, there isn't much reason for us to be there (except perhaps to protect religious minorities, selectively strike known terrorist bases, etc.).
"...violence Iraq is suffering will soon spread right across the region unless Arab countries help us, radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr has warned in an interview ..."
.....UH, you mean like SYRIA helping Hezabollah, or Iran Helping Hamas, or like Egypt helping the Palestinians, or like Iran helping the Taliban, or like Saudi Arabia helping the Somalis, or like Pakistan helping the Taliban, or like the Jordanians helping the Palestinians, or like Saudi Arabia helping the Sunni Insurgents in Iraq, or like Iran Helping the Shi'ites in Iraq, or like Saudia Arabia Helping the Hezabollah, or Iran helping the Lebanese terrorists, or something along those lines?........