Any true SCHOLARS here?

Reading that made my head hurt! Don't these people know how to spell and/or type a coherent sentence?

ThanksToBeAMuslim writes.

""but, but" if you mess with us THIS TRUE Princess of the ARABS and Indian and CHINA and Africa will BLOW you out... "

As the west becomes more corrupted by Islam you will see more Islamic political discourse by the bomb. See this is how Muslim societies resolve internal civil conflicts. Not through discourse but through bombs.

Many things are presented to us by apologists as "other forms of jihad," intended as a red herring to distract from the centrality of armed jihad in Islamic law and history.

Literacy, however, did not appear to make this list.

Sounds like the "princess" has been infected with scholera- the juvenile mental disorder that makes the naive think- with no basis in reality or history- they are a scholar.

"God" didn't "curse the Jews" you total barbarian ignoramus - "Allah" did. Meaning, Muhammed did, as there is no "Allah," only "allah" a pre-Islamic pagan Moon god!

TFF - you worship something that doesn't exist, abd boy does it show! Godless Barbarian! And may I add -LOL!

Obviously the author isn't a SCHOLAR. His command
of the English language is, how shall I put this,
at best inept.

Dear 'true SCHOLARS' angry muslim,

Your letter is very hard to read and understand.

The ones who corrupted the message of Jesus (all glory and praise and honor to Him alone!) are the barbarians who follow the false prophet mohammed(who burns in hell).

Repent of your sins and accept salvation! Jesus said, "No one shall enter the kingdom except through me." He didn't make exceptions for people who blow themselves up, or those who kill innocent people in the name of a false god. He didn't say anything about giving preferential treatment to people who's very existence depends on mistreating His chosen people.
Wake up!! Turn away from the evil you embrace as truth, and stand in the light and saving grace Jesus offers you. He came not to comdemn the world, but that the entire world would be saved by His grace. That grace is offered to you freely. No amount of self-destructive behavior and hatred of Jews will earn your salvation or virgins or anything else- except eternity in a lake of fire.
Jesus Saves!! You might think about that, before you stand for judgement before the Lord.

I just read an article published in the National Post today ("Eurabia's author comes to Canada") by Michael Coren. The "Eurabia author" is Bat Ye'or. Michael Coren quotes Bat Ye'or as saying the following: "What occurred back then is history [she is referring to the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands, the pogroms and intolerance, the Dhimmitude and subjugation of non-Muslim minorities living in Muslim-majority lands], but history has to be understood and accepted. What we have now is revision, denial. Muslim immigrants are taking this false idea of the past to Europe and North America, along with a culture that does not share the Western notion of tolerance, equality, criticism of religion and freedom."

The hate e-mail written by the Muslim illiterate on the topic of "scholarship" (for all we know) may have been written by a "scholar" now present in one of our universities. This is the type of "scholarship" we can come to expect. Again, as I have repeatedly warned, we are allowing so-called "professors" from al-Azhar "University" in Cairo (you must be a practicing Muslim and dedicated to spreading Da'wa to be a part of al-Azhar U) Partnering -- Partnering -- with Canadian Universities. Thus, the history of the world is being re-written by these outright liars. The revisionists are here. They are claiming for themselves "tolerance." They are denying their pogroms, they are denying their racist attacks, they are denying their ethnic cleansing, they are denying their hatred and persecution of Jews and other non-Muslim minorities.

We must stop Muslim immigration. Do so now! Before it's too late!

I tried to read that, i couldn't understand it at all. Methinks someone has been at the fermented yak milk or been at the poppies in afghan!!

“true SCHOLARS (started by Islam- during the WesternDarkAge.)” Apparently princess has never heard of the Greek and Roman scholars that predate her psychopathic cult of crazies.

Again with the caps.

Maybe CAIR would have accused you of antisemitism if that comment was posted on your blog. Since they always hold you responsible for stuff written here, rather than what you write yourself.

Uhhhhhhh, what?!?!?

You don't need to be a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

Too much time has been spent on this Earth already trying to 'understand' the Qur'an. It's a waste of huge effort on a third-rate plagurism and plague on the soul of human growth.

A concerted effort by 'scholars' would be a death sentence to the whole of Islamic dogman. The Qur'an is an historical document with versions and ommissions. Take one good look at the fragments from the dig at the Great Mosque in San‘a', Yemen, where a large number of fragments from the Qur'an dating from first century of hijra. They show enough even at the surface to demolish this dogma of an eternal, immutable Qur'an written before time with the original pen of Allah.

You don't want real scholars, sir.

It's just a Muslim having a mindless rant. Why post it? He doesn't even refute anything you say, Robert. It's probably best to stick with emails which actually have coherent and intelligent arguements, rather than this anti-Semitic nonsense.

ThanksToBeSlime@AllahSWT.org wroted:
(not all few Jews know Islam is THE ANSWER)

True, not all few Jews know Islam is THE ANSWER, however, all few Jews do know that Islam is THE JOKE.

Rogster:

I posted it because I believe the antisemitic nonsense is illuminating in itself.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

It is always the same, first the carrot, then the insult, followed by the envy, the question/answer, the threat, the shrug off, the fear and finally the threat again, this time using other people as unwitting allies(yawn). Is there perhaps one guy who writes this garbage and then an army of illiterates that post his rantings? BTW, I thought the Answer was a pro wrestler.

It is always the same, first the carrot, then the insult, followed by the envy, the question/answer, the threat, the shrug off, the fear and finally the threat again, this time using other people as unwitting allies(yawn). Is there perhaps one guy who writes this garbage and then an army of illiterates that post his rantings? BTW, I thought the Answer was a pro wrestler.

I couldn't read that piece of s***. I second Rogster. This is just nonsense.

God bless Israel.

"I posted it because I believe the antisemitic nonsense is illuminating in itself."

Well said, Robert. Although this particular semi-literate speciman may not be the best example, there are so many of his cult that can masquerade as actual scholars, intelligent, logical and literate. The best way to expose them is to broach the subject of the 'joooze'. Their pathological hatred and jealousies will out them almost every time. Try it at a university near you.

Well, after reading this I realized that my post a couple of weeks ago that in order to understand muslim logic - you basically need to take a mixer to your brains and let a bit of them fall out and replace the skull - was a little off. You need to let A LOT OF YOUR BRAINS drip out and then replace the skull cap. And then cover your head, like the muslims do, to hold the skull down.

hhhmmmm, seems the last time I read a kludge of hateful words all lumped together was when I read the koran.

LEAVE US ALONE TO OUR LIFE.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!!!!

We don't care about YOU, either.

You are free to worship your moon god and to kiss a rock that fell from outer space, so long as you realize that we aren't going to kiss that rock with you and we aren't going to pray toward it and we aren't going to pay extra to live with you.

What rock did you crawl out from under?

India and China had thriving civilizations long before Mohammad had his first seizure.

Africa had multiple civilizations. The Egyptians built the pyramids before Mecca even existed. They fell to your plunderers.

Amr ibn al-As, the conqueror of Egypt, reported to Umar: I will reserve commenting on what is in the city (Alexandria) I have captured, aside from saying I have seized therein four thousand villas with four thousand baths, forty thousand poll tax-paying Jews and four hundred places of entertainment for the royalty.

Umar then ordered him to ship a year's supply of food to Medina for the upkeep of the Muslim community, which he did.

Where's your scholarship? What have Muslims given to the world?

The author of that drivel obviously went to the Koran school of writing-poorly constructed, illogical and rather incoherent. Old Mo would be pleased.

Reading that made my head hurt! Don't these people know how to spell and/or type a coherent sentence?

Posted by: Had.Enough

How can they? The koran is their guide. Never was a more incoherent book written.

ThanksToBeAMuslim writes.

""but, but" if you mess with us THIS TRUE Princess of the ARABS and Indian and CHINA and Africa will BLOW you out... "

What goes around comes around. The car bomb that was planted in London will one day be found in Medina or, at least, Riyadh.

Oh, don't stop printing these messages from islamic scholars. Everyone reading the site should be allowed to see what they (followers of mo ) really believe. Good for a laugh too.
To the scholar, you will never be able to convince Mr. Spencer or the posters here that you are on the "true path", you see, we have read your texts and it is just a mish-mash of stolen and made-up stories. Anything new is the adventures of mohammad the land pirate, how to kill, how to divide up stolen property, and how many "wives' a raider is allowed to keep...but the best looking one went to the prophet. What truth, oh the beauty...nah.

According to www.netnames.com the site allahswt.org is registered to:

N P,
D.P.P.,
P.O.BOX 408
ST.MICHAEL
PA 15951
The Good Old US of A

email: DRWEBS77@YAHOO.COM
tel: 814 534 9317

Any true SCHOLARS here?

No, of course not. Tney are all fine-tuning their "Death to Israel", "Death to America", "Death to the infidel" speeches for friday evening prayers at the local mosque.

I think he's looking for Dr SCHOLARS shoe inserts.
His poor,aching feet are making him crazy.

isle 8,on the left,about halfway down,Sir...

...jerk...

A muslim on mushrooms is a sight to behold. Vision's of Allah and sugar plumbs, oh how wonderful, and then the spear in the side, Robert...
All this prove's is that muslims high on mushrooms should probably stay off the internet. They dont mix well, as you can see...

THEIR WORDS ARE UNINTELLIBLE DUE TO STUPIDITY, SO YOU MUST KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT

Jesus (not "Issa") said "You will know them by their fruit." Which means when people say they are of God don't just look at their words, but discern their actions, in order to make a judgment.

We know that Muslims are decieved by Satan/Allah bc of their fruit. The more devout they are in their faith THE MORE DANGEROUS THEY ARE TO UNSUSPECTING CIVILIANS who happen to be shopping/studying/eating/living anywhere nearby. They turn their own bodies into BOMBS to murder as many non-Muslims as they possibly can; and they do this ON A DAILY BASIS!

The better the Muslim they are, the more they HATE others. In fact, the word love DOES NOT APPEAR A SINGLE TIME IN THE UGLY KORAN, but the word kill is repeated over and over and over and over. However, if you take "love" out of the Bible you lose the whole plot.

The best thing a Muslim parent can do for their children is to start taking them to church. Just don't raise another meat puppet for allah.

THEIR WORDS ARE UNINTELLIBLE DUE TO STUPIDITY, SO YOU MUST KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT

Jesus (not "Issa") said "You will know them by their fruit." Which means when people say they are of God don't just look at their words, but discern their actions, in order to make a judgment.

We know that Muslims are decieved by Satan/Allah bc of their fruit. The more devout they are in their faith THE MORE DANGEROUS THEY ARE TO UNSUSPECTING CIVILIANS who happen to be shopping/studying/eating/living anywhere nearby. They turn their own bodies into BOMBS to murder as many non-Muslims as they possibly can; and they do this ON A DAILY BASIS!

The better the Muslim they are, the more they HATE others. In fact, the word love DOES NOT APPEAR A SINGLE TIME IN THE UGLY KORAN, but the word kill is repeated over and over and over and over. However, if you take "love" out of the Bible you lose the whole plot.

The best thing a Muslim parent can do for their children is to start taking them to church. Just don't raise another meat puppet for allah.

THEIR WORDS ARE UNINTELLIBLE DUE TO STUPIDITY, SO YOU MUST KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUIT

Jesus (not "Issa") said "You will know them by their fruit." Which means when people say they are of God don't just look at their words, but discern their actions, in order to make a judgment.

We know that Muslims are decieved by Satan/Allah bc of their fruit. The more devout they are in their faith THE MORE DANGEROUS THEY ARE TO UNSUSPECTING CIVILIANS who happen to be shopping/studying/eating/living anywhere nearby. They turn their own bodies into BOMBS to murder as many non-Muslims as they possibly can; and they do this ON A DAILY BASIS!

The better the Muslim they are, the more they HATE others. In fact, the word love DOES NOT APPEAR A SINGLE TIME IN THE UGLY KORAN, but the word kill is repeated over and over and over and over. However, if you take "love" out of the Bible you lose the whole plot.

The best thing a Muslim parent can do for their children is to start taking them to church. Just don't raise another meat puppet for allah.

I think he's looking for Dr SCHOLARS shoe inserts.
His poor,aching feet are making him crazy.

isle 8,on the left,about halfway down,Sir...

...jerk...

I think he's looking for Dr SCHOLARS shoe inserts.
His poor,aching feet are making him crazy.

isle 8,on the left,about halfway down,Sir...

...jerk...

"What we have now is revision, denial. Muslim immigrants are taking this false idea of the past to Europe and North America, along with a culture that does not share the Western notion of tolerance, equality, criticism of religion and freedom."

J.S.,

Very well said, and much of the problem has to do with school systems in this country that have institutionalized ignorance of history in the name of the dogmas of diversity, multiculturalism and inclusion.

Muslims and their appologists couldn't make a dent in our Western ideals and principles of tolerance, equality, criticism of religion and freedom if students came out of our schools with a good grounding in these ideals and principles. Neither would our society be vunerable to new and revised versions of historical events if history were taught objectively with an eye to enlightening and educating, instead of with an eye to creating a brave new world based on diversity and multiculturalism.

Ignorance of history and Western thought is the best ally our enemies have against us. It allows for any screwball revisionist version of history to substitute for the truth. In the new, revised version of history, a Mohammad can easily become a great liberator of women, and a light unto the world, and a Washington and Jefferson can be deconstructed to become slave-holding orgres, hardly worthy of our respect or admiration.

All it takes is a lot oif blank minds, ungrounded in objective truth.

"WE...again..we DO NOT CARE about you.. "

...a Muslim speaking the truth...you do not want these people in your neighborhood...Ban Muslim Immigration

These hate emails and other islamic rants should be posted, to illustrate how backwards and uneducated the authors of them are.
Plus they are very humourous !

"LEAVE US ALONE TO OUR LIFE".

Gladly-most of us were happy to know nothing about Islamania ten years ago. The problem is, you guys won't leave us alone to our own lives-besides killing us with your terrorism you keep coming over to our nations insisting that we do as you do and say. No thanks-if we wanted that we would have moved to the ummah. Still, we'll leave you alone right after you quit sending your dregs our way and committing all sorts of atrocities all over the place. The West does not act-it merely REacts to your provocations.

"Scholars" or not, ten minutes have elapsed--it's time for you morons to go run off to participate in another Islamic "religious" killing!

What's it gonna be, guys??

A beheading? A crucufixion?? A disembowelment??? An amputation??? A stoning??? A whipping???? A burning?????

Oh, I know!!!! a car-swarming! (in which you killer-Zombies eat the poor slob's entrails while he's still alive)!!!!

"What we have now is revision, denial. Muslim immigrants are taking this false idea of the past to Europe and North America, along with a culture that does not share the Western notion of tolerance, equality, criticism of religion and freedom." This quote is from Bat Ye'or (the quote comes from an article published by the National Post -- "Eurabia's author comes to Canada" by Michael Coren -- Michael Coren interviewed Bat Ye'or and quoted her.)...just a note, so there's no confusion.

I wonder, was this guy speaking in tongues? Pulease. When my eyes started crossing, I stopped reading.

Rogster: I honestly believe this IS the most articulate argument Robert could find.

"INTEREST (RIBA)"

Is "riba" the Arabic word for "interest"?

In the Slavic languages, "riba" or "ryba" means "fish". Perhaps something fishy is going on here?

Thanks to be a Muslim??? Meaning what, exactly?

Happy to be a Muslim? (You Understood) Thanks for being Muslim?

Again, pulease. I can't bear to witnes much more of this grammatically incorrect shite.

Scotch. Single Malt. Neat. Now.

witness...ooops.

I warms my heart that we're pissing off the muzzies so much. We must be doing a good job!

I warms my heart that we're pissing off the muzzies so much. We must be doing a good job!

OK, it seems it must be left to me to tell this "This True Princess of the ARABS" that her threat of

"THIS TRUE Princess of the ARABS and Indian and CHINA and Africa will BLOW you out..." that really can be taken several ways, Miss Smarty Pants.

ThanksToBeAMuslim, if you ever read this, the hate from your hateful cult is pretty obvious. Indeed you are an islamic supremacist that wishes to kill all in modern civilization. You represent the darkest and most foul aspects of the human condition and it is despicable to commit acts of murder in the name of a holy act when is is so clear to the world that your 'god' is evil incarnate. So, anyway, TBAM, I have a question for you...you said that the message of ISA (Jesus) was corrupted. My question is : how do you know that? Can you prove that? If this is the basis upon which you are committing murder of God's people, (Israelites) don't you think that you should be pretty darn sure that you are correct before you start fighting against God's people, and, thus, God Himself? I mean what is the source of your revelation that God's Word (Bible) was distorted? Some child-molester said it? Another murderer claimed it? A camel told someone? How do you know this? Furthermore, with the stakes so high, I challenge you to PROVE that The message of Jesus was corrupted, Mr. Big Mouth. Or maybe you're just like the rest of the muslim haters, all hate, no substance. All hate no reason. All hate no common sense. Perhaps God had it right when He said in Genesis that your ancestor, Ishmael, would be a wild donkey of a man:

"Gen. 16:12 He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility (before the face of, or in defiance of) to the east all his brothers. NASB"

Ya, if there was no other indication that the Bible is NOT corrupted, this bulls-eye call on how you are looks pretty prophetic to me... sure beats the stories of mohammed raping 9 year olds.

A few years ago Barbara Walters did an interview with a bunch of Shi'ite terrorists with their little scarves hiding their faces, and carrying their ubiquitous AK's.
There were about 8 of them, and she was speaking with their apparent leader. She asked, "What awaits you in paradise?" referencing his assertion that he and his fellow idiots would go to paradise for murdering innocents.
He responded.."All things forbidden on earth." "Yes but what exactly?" she asked. After thinking for a moment he responded.."Wine....YOUNG BOYS!",at which point all his fellow perverts became very excited and poked at each other and nodded their heads vigorously, their eyes wide and excited looking. In a less enthusiastic tone he continued,"women...", and kind of drifted after that.
My conclusion from this exchange is that Muslim Paradise and Muslim hell must be the same place. It just depends on which end of the sodomy your on. Bad Muslim?...bend over. Good Muslim? Your young boy,(a bad Muslim) awaits you! Simple enough. It just occurs to me...what do female terrorist murderers get? Virgin men? Hmmmm....

It is starting to become very sad. Robert no longer receives any email from respected academics, scholars or authors which he could share with you so he is reduced to posting emails from anonymous muslims around the world, some who do not have any education whatsoever as is evidenced by their spelling skills. It even hurts me to see that even his readers are now asking him to stop publishing these rants since they seem to mirror his increased irrelevancy. No one likes to see a deified cult figure stoop so low. Pretty soon Robert, once the ranters start ignoring you, you will be reduced to quixotic battles against windmills. What a tragic hero you are !

Gee, sublimer is right. I bet Robert is receiving many very thoughtful, scholarly responses that show that the violence of the Qur'an and the ahadith can be explained away in a rational manner. There are probably hundreds, thousands, or millions of Muslims out there who can, and do, use mainstream Islamic jurisprudence to rationally confront the violence. He is only showing us these irrational rantings so that we think that is the only way that Muslims can respond to criticism of their Religion of Peace.

Of course, Robert is not only removing all their posts here before we can see them, he is also controlling the mass media all around the world, so that they also only give access to Muslims who give transparently false and evasive answers to questions about violence in Islam. Robert is also secretly switching the placards that the Muslim protesters are carrying; originally they said "We come in peace", "Love is the answer", and so on, but Robert switches them with "Slay all the unbelievers", "Islam will rule the world", etc. He also forces the media to change the captions on the photos, so that when the Muslims march in huge numbers against Islamic violence, the captions say something like "200,000 people marched today in Karachi to call for the destruction of the Zionist Entity and the Great Satan after an American tourist reportedly looked askance at a Muslim in London. Several buildings were burned, and 46 people died in the rioting". Another tactic he uses on the rare occasions that Muslims call for a march against Islamic violence, is to go around to their homes and disables the Muslims' vehicles so they are unable to attend the march.

He's a tricky one, sublimer.

".......Islam is THE ANSWER............"

And what was the question again? I don't remember asking one............

sublimer.... You're funny! "deified cult leader." Isn't that what your buddy Muhammad is? I don't recall anyone killing in the name of Robert, or threatening to behead anyone for insulting him.
And why do your "respected academics and scholars" avoid coming here? Lack of guts. They probably don't enjoy having their delusions of moral and spiritual superiority shattered on a regular basis. As long as you keep setting them up, we will keep knocking them down. Who is tilting at windmills here? Your "religion" has doomed itself by spreading hate and death everywhere it appears. I'm sure that won't stop you from defending your religion of pedophiles.

special_guest,

Robert does not do anything to Muslims. If he does anything it is to you. He offers you a narrow keyhole from which you can look at the muslim world, and which you happily gulp just as one would a soma pill. Sleep happy....and afraid. And don't forget to vote for the Military Industrial Complex. It will protect you and it will protect other peoples' pockets.

It is very hard in this day and age to servive in this world which is full of hate and violence.
I went to a open minded school in the heart of manchester. I loved the fact my best mates who were muslim and christian we could laugh, drink, go cinemas together and also debate about each others faith. Even thou our religions were totally different our ideas and belief in god and right from wrongs were the same.

I can't specify my age as i admit i am young, but as a young person we look apon you adults for guidence in this world and advice. how can we possible look upon you all with faith on teaching islam in the right way when all it seems you do is bring violence and pain into the world.

today there was a bomb scare in central london weather or not it was a terroist attempt it puts dowt in everyones heart about what muslims stands for today???

God made every single person in the world accountable for there own actions... he also said we will all be judged for these actions on the end of days ie judgment day.
How can someone who hasnt the power to make or take life kill inocent people with a bomb and say that god will turn them into a marta???

do these muslims think god will forgive them for taking the lifes of his inocent children, the unborn still progressing in its mothers womb, and the many more lifes out there they have taken in the second the press the detinator for the bomb!!! and think that they are not committing murder on the highest degree...

A mata in my eyes is if you give your life to save another.
I feel that islam is faced with bullies taking the lives of inocent people and saying the are doing it in the name of allah makes me sick!!!
however they are not only harming inocent people they are corrupting the very word of god!!!! with:
kidnapping,
influencing young people to take there own lives in a senceless act..
scaring people into the islam

where will this end???

special_guest,

Robert does not do anything to Muslims. If he does anything it is to you. He offers you a narrow keyhole from which you can look at the muslim world, and which you happily gulp just as one would a soma pill. Sleep happy....and afraid. And don't forget to vote for the Military Industrial Complex. It will protect you and it will protect other peoples' pockets.

It is very hard in this day and age to servive in this world which is full of hate and violence.
I went to a open minded school in the heart of manchester. I loved the fact my best mates who were muslim and christian we could laugh, drink, go cinemas together and also debate about each others faith. Even thou our religions were totally different our ideas and belief in god and right from wrongs were the same.

I can't specify my age as i admit i am young, but as a young person we look apon you adults for guidence in this world and advice. how can we possible look upon you all with faith on teaching islam in the right way when all it seems you do is bring violence and pain into the world.

today there was a bomb scare in central london weather or not it was a terroist attempt it puts dowt in everyones heart about what muslims stands for today???

God made every single person in the world accountable for there own actions... he also said we will all be judged for these actions on the end of days ie judgment day.
How can someone who hasnt the power to make or take life kill inocent people with a bomb and say that god will turn them into a marta???

do these muslims think god will forgive them for taking the lifes of his inocent children, the unborn still progressing in its mothers womb, and the many more lifes out there they have taken in the second the press the detinator for the bomb!!! and think that they are not committing murder on the highest degree...

A mata in my eyes is if you give your life to save another.
I feel that islam is faced with bullies taking the lives of inocent people and saying the are doing it in the name of allah makes me sick!!!
however they are not only harming inocent people they are corrupting the very word of god!!!! with:
kidnapping,
influencing young people to take there own lives in a senceless act..
scaring people into the islam

where will this end???

"And what was the question again? I don't remember asking one...."

Oo, Oo, Oo,...wait wait I've got it!

Name an idiotic plan for world domination masquerading as a religion (World wide no less, and peaceful), that a 2 year old with a full load in his diaper could see through.

Right?
Right?

one-tru-voice,

I don't think you should be coming to this site looking for advice because with what you wrote, I actually think you can teach most people here a thing or two. Islam is obviously being used and hijacked by some people for geopolitical reasons. They look at the Koran as a supermarket. They choose and pick the quotes that would justify their actions a bit the same way most of the people here do. Christians have done the same thing during the inquisition, the reconquista and the wars of religion. Religion can be really dangerous when it is used for violent measures since the people who do so always imply that they are speaking in the name of a higher cosmological and timeless being. Whenever there is war, occupation, and oppression, you will always find people who resort to a higher order to justify what is ultimately unjustifiable. But don't get fooled but what people say here, since they believe that Islam and all muslims are evil. There are more than a billion muslims and the big majority goes about living its life just as anyone else would.

one-tru-voice,
There is no more hate or violence in the world today than any other time in history. There are more people and thanks to modern media/internet we hear about more of it but it has always been there. Take my word for it as a not so young person, I have lived through it as have many others throughout time. The haters are loud much louder than non haters and bloody scences are popular with the mmm, but that is no surprise as they are “satans eye” on the world these days. That is what has changed not the level of hate/violence/injustice. Remember this, most of us have felt exactly as you do at some point in our lives so don’t let it get you down. There is plenty of good out there, you just have to go out and find it, its not bloody or hateful so you wont find it anywhere in pop culture. Where does it end? It never ends, it is a constant fight, the fight between good and evil, only the players change the mission always remains the same.

Think about it soon minds like these will run Europe! It is ok we'll let the native Europeans emmigrate to the US in a final Eurpean wave. We'll then send all of our Muzzies out to Europe like some kind of mass prisoner exchange.

Alaskan,

Although the anger in your rant seems worthy of a Paki effigy-burner, you do touch (accidentally of course)on an important subject : Deified prophet. Mohammed in Islam, unlike Jesus, is neither divine nor should he be deified or idolized. He is a simple man just like you an me. The Muslims who give him too much importance and who consequently put the hadith at the same footing as the Koran are committing a serious religious mistake. It also happens that these Muslims (Salafis and wahhabis from the bigoted country of Saudi Arabia which your country supports and whose ambassador your president calls Bandar Bush) are also the most prone to using violence.

"...Robert no longer receives any email from respected academics, scholars or authors which he could share with you ,,,"

Posted by: sublimer

....can you provide some names of those he does not receive emails or other correspondence from?.....

....Islam is for losers....

sublimer wrote:
"They look at the Koran as a supermarket. They choose and pick the quotes that would justify their actions a bit the same way most of the people here do."

Logically incorrect as usual, sublimer. Using the Qur'an as a justifcation for war against the infidel, then following through with their dastardly deeds is in no way, shape or form, comparative to simply pointing out that simple and obvious truth.

It is a disingenuine attempt to find a moral equivalence between the erstwhile "inquisition", that ended officially in the 1800's, coupled with the fact that no Christian text supported it, and Islamic violence that "potentially" occured as recently as today.

Additionally, sublimer, you claim about Robert that:
"He offers you a narrow keyhole from which you can look at the muslim world, and which you happily gulp just as one would a soma pill."

That pill is not fatal. Failure to recognize and subsequently have a peep through that keyhole, certainly can be.

Once again, as is typical with you, sublimer, a "potential" Islamic act of violence is attempted and you show up here complaining that Robert is simply pointing that out.

Your contribution here is valueless.

There are more than a billion muslims and the big majority goes about living its life just as anyone else would.

Posted by: sublimer

one-tru-voice,

That last sentence by sublimer shows the problem with Islam. There are over a billion Muslims and most are unwilling to combat those who have "hijacked" the "religion of peace". If they cared enough about their faith to defend it from those who kill in its name, they would find a lot of friends all over the world.
I cannot speak for others but I didn't start out believing that all Muslims are evil but I have come to regard Islam as pernicious. I am still waiting for those who want to live in peace to join us in the fight against those who would kill us. That they do not says they are silent partners.

Sublimer and others love to quote the Koran. I can quote you some words from the traditions of the prophet himself. They should give you some insight on how Muslims view the rest of us:

Muhammad is reputed to have warned that "the survival of my Community rests on the hoofs of its horses and the points of its lances; as long as they keep from tilling the fields; once they begin to do that they become as other men."

Translation: Islam cannot survive except in a position of superiority.

"...Robert does not do anything to Muslims...."

Posted by: sublimer

....that is true...but he certainly teaches the real meanings of the writings in the Qur'an, Hadiths and Sura...using only the words as written by Muslims....It is the Muslim clerics that teach and apply those same words to create death and mahem in todays world...Muslims harm Muslims by misleading and dictating falsehoods....Islam is for losers...

exsgtbrown,

Here is a non exhaustive list and your homework for the next year :

* Abdullahi Ahmed An-Na'im
* Leila Ahmed
* Reza Aslan
* Mehdi Bazargan
* Samira Bellil
* Assia Djebar
* Hamid Dalwai
* Shirin Ebadi
* Mawlana Faizani
* Ahmad Ghabel
* Asma Jahangir
* Ghada Jamshir
* Afrasiab Ahmad
* Afrasiab Khattak
* Kadizadeli
* Mohammad Khatami
* Mohsen Kadivar
* Syed Ahmed Khan
* Fatema Mernissi
* Irshad Manji
* Mostafa Malekian
* Asra Nomani
* Abdolkarim Soroush
* Ali Shariati
* Mohammad Mojtahed Shabestari
* Yousef Sanei
* Hassan al-Turabi
* Mahmoud Mohamed Taha
* Mahmoud Taleghani
* Amina Wadud
* Fareed Zakaria
* Nasr Abu Zayd

you can also add Tareq ramadan, Malek Chabel or Gamal al-Banna. But they don't have to be muslim. I meant any respected academic from any part of the world or any religion, from esposito to bernard lewis.

"Me thinks he doth protest too much..."

Beyond that, his own hot-headed temper gave away the entire ballgame, including his ilks allies...but that aside...
...you can always tell when we're onto something, and that it's working...when rage boys get bent, just like this one did.

I love it when a plan comes together!
LOL

one-tru-voice -

I personally recommend you listen to those of us who don't have a nefarious religious/political agenda. Who is that? Only you can decide for yourself who on this board is trying to sway opinion.

I can tell you, as a non-religious person, that I don't fall into the 'box' most of my non-religuous peers wish for me. I am not blind to the agendas of those who wish to trample upon my individual freedoms.

I have had trouble defining myself based on current definitions, but you could say I fit, to an extensive degree, into the following categories: Moralist, Constitutionalist, Humanist, and, most recently, Secular Conservative (my terminology).

For many years, those who wish to trample upon my individual freedoms have been the Left. They use such terms as Military Industrial Complex instead of Military. They enjoy using such jargon to make you distrustful of every organization with ANY semblance of authority.

This is an old Communist tactic that has been used against the US since the '30s. And yet, despite their 'anti-authoritarian' slant, they are insistent that they know better than you anyway in order to tell you what to do!

Does this make sense? Of course not. If they REALLY despised authority, they would despise it ALL. That's not the case...they just despise DEMOCRACY.

So, why am I giving you all of this background? For this reason only: Substitute Islam for the Left, and any Western country for the US.

I think you see my point. As a thinking individual, you are to take or leave as you deem fit. I'm not one to do more here than have my say.

Cheers.

"...Islam is obviously being used and hijacked by some people for geopolitical reasons...."

....can you provide names of some of these people?.....are these people Muslims?....can you say where they are misusing Islam?.....

...Islam is for losers....

"THIS TRUE Princess of the ARABS and Indian and CHINA and Africa will BLOW you out... "
Yeah? I got something you can blow princess!

this poor bastard muslim needs some help, he has become unstable due to the mixed messages coming from the koran,hadiths. how can any same person ever remain a muslim when they actually read their books? A pious muslim must have dual personlities to ever have a semblance of normality. I have the cure for these poor islamists convert or we will send you to meet your allah in hell.

"There are over a billion Muslims and most are unwilling to combat those who have "hijacked" the "religion of peace". "

can you give me evidence of what you purport? Maybe in your twisted vision of "Islamic lands", you imagine us living in tribal villages or anarchic societies. The only society that is like that right now is Iraq. thank you very much U.S.A. Before, Saddam used to torture the Muslim fundementalists the same way you wnat them tortured today. In the other societies that have not been attacked by the U.S. and so who still have a viable civil society, we leave that job for the police. So please give me evidence that our security forces are not doing anything against islamic fundamentalism.

sublimer wrote (to one-tru-voice):
"But don't get fooled but what people say here, since they believe that Islam and all muslims are evil. There are more than a billion muslims and the big majority goes about living its life just as anyone else would."

No one here says all Muslims are evil. Individual Muslims are irrelevant and unfortunately, continue to prove themselves as such. Islam as it existed historically and as it is applied today has certain inherent elements of intolerance to all other faiths outside of Islam. These elements are found in the Qur'an, the supposed holy text of Allah that contains his immutable words...That presents a big problem.

The concept of reforming Islam, in any meaningful way, is tenuous at best, since changing the Qur'an effectively strips Allah of his divinity. That is why Islam has not undergone any noticable reform in nearly 1400 years. It was debated by scholars up to about 1100 AD, but since then, nada.

Sublimer uses the tactic that a lot of Muslims are against violence, so we should not explore Islam and try to find and correct the problem of those who advocate it, using specifically, you guessed it, the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira.

The "big majority" of peaceful Mulsims that sublimer refers to is valueless. What exact number defines that "big majority"? How many hundreds of thousands of Muslims are outside the "big majority"? Indeed, these are valid questions to ask.

The bottom line is: If Peaceful Muslims, the "big majority" of the adherents to Islam won't denounce their violent, intolerable brethren...those who use Islamic texts as their impetus... then they are complicit in their silence.

If they won't police themselves and correct those who are not practicing "true" Islam, THEIR PROBLEM, then someone else will.

What does he need a scholar for? He just as hateful as his master! death=death! How dare them call Jesus pbuh? What's it to them?
He needs allah pbuh of hate violents and lack of knowledge only kill kill kill kill kill kill..
you have to say that like those horror movies you know something is coming you listen to the background and they are actually saying kill.. kill... kill... kill...kill....kill....
I know why they need scholar..to interpret what he is saying... jaqiyya. . . . . . . .

New Standard Revised Koran

It is clear the Autistic-Depressed-JewishCancerGene needs AGAIN...yes...AGAI..therapy.
And verily Allah Tallah knows best.

Now I know why GOD (Allah-SWT) "cursed" the jews...it speaks for itself in the hateful, proud-for-nothing-INTEREST-gulping Jews (not all few Jews know Islam is THE ANSWER).
Verily, in this are clear proofs and signs for people who believe in Allah.

So, what is the deal with the "flip-flop" authors of the corrupted writers. You "changed" the message of Isa (Jesus-PBUH) and then God (Allah) sent ISLAM...yes..."swallow" that...it will "burn" your BLACK heart...fire from the HELL itself.
Allah mocks at you and gives you increase in your wrong-doings to wander blindly.

WE...again..we DO NOT CARE about you.. got it YOU are free to worship your "golden cow" made out of INTEREST (RIBA) money of the "poor" citizens.
All the praises and thanks be to Allah!

LEAVE US ALONE TO OUR LIFE. "but, but" if you mess with us THIS TRUE Princess of the ARABS and Indian and CHINA and Africa will BLOW you out...
Will you not then be afraid of Allahs Punishment?"

"They use such terms as Military Industrial Complex"

Eisenhower used that term too. Is he a commie lefty? It's not a term. It's a reality. It's become obvious to everyone around the world that to sustain its economy, the U.S. needs wars. Watch "Why we fight" or read Gore Vidal's, otherwise known as America's biographer, Perpetual war for perpetual peace.

OT
It's funny (and a little flattering) how many video posters have blocked me from commenting on their videos at YouTube. They sure don't want anyone posting that understands what islam means. Debate is not allowed by islam.

"They use such terms as Military Industrial Complex"

Eisenhower used that term too. Is he a commie lefty? It's not a term. It's a reality. It's become obvious to everyone around the world that to sustain its economy, the U.S. needs wars. Watch "Why we fight" or read Gore Vidal's, otherwise known as America's biographer, Perpetual war for perpetual peace.

"I have the cure for these poor islamists convert or we will send you to meet your allah in hell."

Awake, it seems that the inquisition is still alive.

Taqiyya,sorry, I always do that combining the two words. To you owe them no matter what anyways! Jizya money and the Taqiyya that comes with it. It is always in the name of Taqiyya.

sumlimer wrote: "But don't get fooled but what people say here, since they believe that Islam and all muslims are evil. There are more than a billion muslims and the big majority goes about living its life just as anyone else would."

Islam IS evil. Why do you try to defend such a brazenly dark cult and the teachings in it's text (surah 5 and surah 11, for example)that command the killing of non-muslims?

And do you think there is some type of moral equivalence to the 'billion' muslim's culture and the foundations upon which both Israel and the USA were founded upon?

And if there are a billion muslims, does that make mohammed a true prophet? It is either that or there are a billion deceived people. And should the rest of us have our children killed because YOU are deceived?

No, the billion muslims are not more evil than any humans, (but beither are they righteous!) But what they are, is in the cross-hairs of the lion of the west because of the actions and teachings of ITS OWN PEOPLE. No sympathy here.

In response to sublimer's continued nonsense about the war-mongering US, contemplate this!

Islam has been at war, within and without it's own camp, without cessation, since the 7th century. Islam cannot exist without something to conquer.

Swallow that pill, sublimer. When Muhammad was warring in the desert, what was his exuse then, with the obvious absence of the US imperialist presence in the 7th century?

"The bottom line is: If Peaceful Muslims, the "big majority" of the adherents to Islam won't denounce their violent, intolerable brethren...those who use Islamic texts as their impetus... then they are complicit in their silence.

If they won't police themselves and correct those who are not practicing "true" Islam, THEIR PROBLEM, then someone else will. "

awake you are falling in the same mistake as the other jihadwatcher. Can Muslims say that America is a safe haven for pedophiles because the people do not demonstrate against it. No, because the police is doing something about it. That's how societies with civil and political structures work. You deny this vision to the Muslim world because you are probably projecting images of Iraq, afghanistan and somalia (areas where there is conflict) to all the Muslim world which extends from Morocco to Indonesia.

"In response to sublimer's continued nonsense about the war-mongering US, contemplate this!

Islam has been at war, within and without it's own camp, without cessation, since the 7th century. Islam cannot exist without something to conquer.

Swallow that pill, sublimer. When Muhammad was warring in the desert, what was his exuse then, with the obvious absence of the US imperialist presence in the 7th century?"

Since the 7th century ? If revising history will make you feel good, be my guest. It's not my problem if you're ignorant. It's yours.

Pedophiles, once discovered, are marked in the US, and deservedly ostracized.

That is what is happening with the Islamists, slowly but surely, and deservedly so.

Awake:

"No one here says all Muslims are evil."

angryeagle :

"Islam IS evil. Why do you try to defend such a brazenly dark cult and the teachings in it's text"

Awake, you are either self deluding yourself, hanging out with the wrong crowd or practicing taqiyya !

Ignorance? Pray, do tell...

I'll be away for about an hour and a half, but will return, insh'allah.

SIMPLE IS AS SIMPLE DOES

Sublimer actually said:
"Mohammed in Islam, unlike Jesus, is neither divine nor should he be deified or idolized. He is a simple man just like you an me."

Mohammed beheaded hundreds of Jews with his own sword, just like most "simple men" in your world apparently do. He founded his own pagan religion and commanded his zealous followers to kill "the people of the book wherever you find them." You apparently do not know what that means so let me put it in plain English for you: simple Mo was ordering his followers to murder Jews and Christians wantonly.

Most people are not crazy, even Muslims. They do not have enough power to outright conquer the West, so they hide in shadows and plant bombs in cars and park them in London instead. Americans have never worried one bit about silly Islam...that is, until they started killing people in NYC.

You may continue to put as much lipstick on that pig as you like, it still won't look pretty, sublimer. The problem with Islam is the Koran; it does not teach or commmand Muslims to love their neighbor. Perhaps that's why they chose to kill and subdue their neighbors instead.

Hey guys,

this article from the ADL (anti defamation league) might give you an insight about how you and robert spencer misconstrue the Koran as the "smoking gun" document. I did the research just for you. Any thanks will be gratefully received.

http://www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/4232_12.asp

ADL Says Extremists Use The Talmud to Promote Anti-Semitism

New York, NY, February 20, 2003 ... The Talmud - the classic text of Jewish law and lore, history and philosophy - increasingly is being used by extremists to promote their anti-Semitism. In a new report, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) exposes the lies of anti-Semites, Holocaust deniers and others who cite Talmudic texts as evidence that Judaism is "perverted" or "immoral."

• The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics (requires Acrobat Reader, 202 kb)

"It has become a common refrain among the anti-Semites that the Talmud is the 'smoking gun' that confirms their belief about Jews being stingy, malevolent and intent on world domination," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "They create this myth about Jewish practices and tradition, which helps to further justify and promote their anti-Semitism."

ADL's report, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics, exposes how certain passages from the Talmud and other traditional Jewish texts are used to foment anti-Semitism through distortions and fabrications. The authors of anti-Talmudic polemics seek to paint Judaism as an immoral religion that preaches hatred for non-Jews and promotes obscenity, criminality, sexual perversion and other immoral acts. Widely available on the Internet, such anti-Talmudic tracts "are clearly designed to provoke hostility toward Jews," Mr. Foxman said.

The foremost distorters of Talmudic texts include David Duke, the former Klansman and white supremacist, and Michael A. Hoffman II, a conspiracy theorist and Holocaust denier.

Among the claims refuted by the ADL report are:

* The claim that Judaism views non-Jews as "non-human;"
* The claim that Judaism encourages child molestation;
* The claim that Jews should not be trusted because they recite the Kol Nidre prayer that authorizes them to lie to non-Jews;
* The claim that Judaism demands that non-Jews who study Jewish law be put to death;
* The claim that the Talmud employs the name Bala'am as a derogatory code name for Jesus.

The Anti-Defamation League, founded in 1913, is the world's leading organization fighting anti-Semitism through programs and services that counteract hatred, prejudice and bigotry.

Did you guys see the Kol Nidre part. It's kind of like the taqiyya you accuse Muslims of practicing. I don't want to call you crypto-nazis but you are getting really really close.

Apparently in sublimer's world Mohammed is just like you and me and Muslims don't actually practice taqiyya. heh heh

Sublimer- I pity you. You are probably a decent Muslim - I don't know how old you are. But I get the impression that you've grown up in the west. So far your entire life experience and consequently your understanding of what islam is about has been forged in an era when Islam was probably at its lowest ebb in its entire 1400 year history. The caliphate was abolished back in the 1920's and for many years Islamic countries were constrained by western colonial control. Furthermore, globalization as we now know it, didn't exist. Which means that Muslims didn't have access to the modern technologies, especially the internet, created by the west. So your entire experience and understanding of islam was forged when Islam was basically the weakest its ever been.

But if you studied Islam a bit, especially what the classicists had to say - the Sunnah of the prophet means everything! It's right up there with the Koran in Islam. And clearly the Sunnah (example) of Muhammad is to lay low while powerless and then to advance and conquer once in a position of strength to do so.

It's no great mystery why you have fundamentally misunderstood your own religion. It's because islam was weak - in ALL of our lifetimes. That temporary quiescence, historically speaking, evidently fooled a whole lot of people - not only us, but apparently many Muslims as well.

But for all the reasons that Hugh has elucidated, Islam is strong once again and now once again, it's true nature is revealed. It's a shock for all of us. But it shouldn't be. Its all in there in the Koran and the Sunnah combined. All of the explanation - backed up by the classical jurists - for what is happening today - is there.

So get you head out of your ass sublimer. The truth about your religion may well be as shocking to you as it is for us - but that's no damned excuse for your denial.

Islam = Evil.

No doubt about it.

Caroline,

First, let me laugh. As a muslim who lived in Muslim lands all his life and who still travels around the Muslim world every year, I think I have a better perception not only than the commenters who analyze Islam behind a computer but also a better perception than Spencer and Hugh who seem to get all they learned about Islam from books and none from Muslims' daily lives. Your narrative of how Islam was strong weak and strong again seems apt for a James Bond novel. Although know you wish it were that simple it is not. First anyone who talks about the Muslim world and the west as a bloc or a body is a complete idiot who like to throw nuances out the window since his neurons cannot handle the complexity. Imagine a Muslim telling you that you killed 6 million jews during world war II. What would you answer ? You'd say that it wasn't me it was Nazi Germany. What if he said that that argument doesn't suffice because nazi Germany is still part of the west. So as long as the West killed 6 million Jews, you must have done so too. It just doesn't hold and that's what you are doing by thinking about islam/islamic countries as one bloc.

Darcy,

You are pure genius, an inspiration for the masses.

Uh huh - you know that "sublimer?"

About as far away from "sublime" as you can get.

The total opposite, in fact.

"There are over a billion Muslims and most are unwilling to combat those who have "hijacked" the "religion of peace". "

can you give me evidence of what you purport? Maybe in your twisted vision of "Islamic lands", you imagine us living in tribal villages or anarchic societies. The only society that is like that right now is Iraq.

Sublimer:
I offer you, Naseem, Progressive and many others. I offer CAIR.

None of you speak out against the people who are shelling cities, who most likely planted the car bombs in London, who claim that London deserves to be bombed because Salman Rushdie received a knighthood. I offer your deafening silence in the wake of fatwas against many people in many countries all over the world. If even half of you had the desire to speak up and denounce Osama and all like him who kill in the name of Allah, the world would be a better place.

The only society with tribal villages is Iraq?
Get real! Educate yourself. There are Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. There's Syria.

They're not so much anarchic societies as they are people with anarchic viewpoints. They think their religious viewpoints give them license to kill others. They're countries that are still divided by tribal loyalties. Not one of them is a nation, in the true sense of the word.

Yes, I know - thanks, "sublimer!"

Now, can you and your evil, fraudulent, "religion," go away? Go and live in your various CRAPISTANS! GOODBYE!

Why are the Islamic countries the dungheaps of the World?

Answer: Islam, the dungheap of religion.

Muhammed - the false prophet Jesus, the Son of God, warned us about in Matthew.

Islam - the "fruits" Jesus, the Son of God, warned us about in Matthew.

Nothing could be clearer!

So, "sublimer," - go and whack your head to your false god and false prophet, LOL! You Barbarian!

sublimer: "It even hurts me to see that even his readers are now asking him to stop publishing these rants since they seem to mirror his increased irrelevancy."Posted by: sublimer at June 29, 2007 3:01 PM

You're lying sublimer. In fact, Spencer is increasingly cited as the primary voice of those concerned about islamization of the west. He is in fact "top dog" in that respect. His books are at the top of the NYT despite being ostracized by the MSM, and numerous prominent Islam apologists (including al Queda itself) cite him by name as enemy numero uno. That's because he is telling the truth about your religion sublimer. That's why he is dangerous to you. And your pathetic attempt to call him irrelevant strikes everyone as what it is - utterly pathetic.

I can't say I don't understand your fear though. That's what I see in all these "hate mail bag" postings. Sheer fear, on the part of so many primitive brainwashed people who are going to go down in history as the last voices speaking in defense of a phenomenal lie that led to an absolutely insane and completely unnecessary amount of bloodshed in the story of human history.

Yep - Jesus Christ, the Son of God, warned us about your false prophet and false god in Matthew!

LOL, "sublimer," you totally duped idiot, worshipping something that doesn't exist!

Go and whack your head 5 times a day to something that doesn't exist, stupo!

LOL! Want to know "irrelevancy?" - sublimer!!!!

The very definition of the word!

...and so I will ask the toughest YES or NO question that no Muslim is brave enough to answer:

If you claim Allah to be the creator and lord of all worlds, does Allah love all his creation unconditionally?

Any true SCHOLARS here?

sublimer

Lets face facts:

Surah 9 was the last or penultimate Surah in the Quran. It abrogates earlier Surah's.
See
http://muttaqun.com/quran/e/nobe009.htm

Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât, and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

There is no peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims.

The Hadith is part of the Sunnah right Sublimer?
See 4294 of Salih Muslim
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

Extract:
If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya.
If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.
If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allaah's help and fight them."

Again there is no peaceful coexistence with non-Muslims.

And in Bukhari says
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle,
'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

So we see if you try to leave Islam Sublimer, again the commands are to kill ex-Muslims.

It is not cherry-picking either.
I can find continous hateful material in the Quran, the Hadith, the Sira. So it is frankly a miracle to find moderate Muslims who dont carry out the most hateful commands of Islam. They are not really practising their totalitarian. As far as I can see, Mohammad was a Salafist/Wahhabist and so was his first 4 Caliphs.

Lets review some European history:

637AD : Invasion of Syria, Jerasalem
639AD: Start of Invasion of Egypt
647AD : Invasion of Cyprus
666AD : Looting of Sicily by Muslims
677AD : 1st Seige of Constantinople
710AD - 1492AD : Conquest of Spain by Muslims
716AD : 2nd Seige of Constantinople
725AD : Capture of Nimes, France
732AD : Defeat of Muslims at Tours, France
792AD : Invasion of France
1583AD : 1st Seige of Vienna
1683AD : 2nd Seige of Vienna

Note the fact that Spain was invaded and subjugated for 700 years. And note, repeated Muslim invasion of Europe has been going on for 1000 years. The Crusades were a reaction of Muslims subjugating North Africa, the Middle East north of the Arabian peninsula and Asia
Do you deny any of this?

So Sublimer what will it be?
Your problem is that even if JihadWatch disappears, everyone here dies, the fact is the problems verses in the Quran, the Hadith, the Sira remain. And the problem of facing what Mohammad, Abu Bakr, Uthman, Umar & Ali did also remains. You cannot blame the contents on the West or Christian Crusades or anything. They happened _LONG BEFORE_. And that material will continue to inspire Muslims to commit acts of carnage against fellow Muslims (Hamas versus Fatah for example), against Women, against non-Muslims. As ever, _YOU EXCUSE_ Islam. You never confront that Islam _IS_ the problem. Not the West, not Jews or Christians, not poor "innocent" Muslims being brutalised but Islamic texts.

Isn't the alias -- sub-slimer?

The sub-slimer might wish to look up "induction by analogy." Simply because two items create a similarity in appearance, it does not follow that the two items are the same. Evidence which contradicts the claim of similarity is called a "disanalogy." It has been demonstrated repeatedly (even from the terrorists themselves) that they use the Koran to justify their murder of civilians. Islam has bloody borders. Islam murders children and women, and enslaves millions. Islam still does (there is slavery practiced throughout the Muslim world -- from Sudan to the UAE). Muslims mistreat and abuse and subjugate minorities within their Mideast. There is no tolerance or equality under Sharia law. This has all been documented continuously.

Go look up TheReligionofPeace.com. There we have some more daily reminders of what Islam is all about.

My only fear Caroline is that one day you'll rise and start operating concentration camps just like the nazis did. You have already decided to get rid of habeas corpus and become a dictatorship. With the narrow mindset and the level of education in the United States, people do worry that the Americans will be duped just like the Germans were once before to follow a bigoted anti-semite for a final solution : exterminate muslims wherever they find them. See the chance of you getting hit by a terrorist attack is just like what Bloomberg said lower than you getting hit by a lightning bolt. He added that with : Get a life. The chances of the US becoming a crypto-nazi nation with concentraton camps is, although remote, slightly higher. Just check the last pew poll. You think the Muslim world hates you. What you don't realize is that now the whole world hates you. The percentages in the Muslim world are in some case even more lenient toward the Us than what you get in France, Argentina or Bolivia. So why do these people hate the US ? Is it because they are muslim ? You people need to wake up and watch something else other than fox and people magazines. Watch the BBC or Al Jazeera or France 24 or Deutche Welle. See what the rest of the world is saying. You are only isolationists when it comes to ideas. when it comes to bombs you are very gun-ho.

sublimer: "You'd say that it wasn't me it was Nazi Germany. What if he said that that argument doesn't suffice because nazi Germany is still part of the west. So as long as the West killed 6 million Jews, you must have done so too. It just doesn't hold and that's what you are doing by thinking about islam/islamic countries as one bloc."

When you show me an example of Muslims waging a wide scale world war against the jihadists (or as some call them, "islamo-fascists") among you, like many westerners did against the Nazis, then I'll think you have a point. Until then, I believe that makes you complicit in their crimes. And you are. The fact is that the ummah stands up for every atrocity committed by Muslims all over the world (or merely remains silent in tacit agreement with those crimes).

...and while you're at it Sublimer (or ANY Muslim for that matter), why don't you answer my simple yes or no question post just above above UK Infidel Lovers post.

It's simple, easy and its either yes or no.

sublimer
Hmmm...didn't realize I was on a rant. I'll have to review my posts. I thought I was just stating facts. Again...you think I hate Muslims? I pity them. I hate no group of people...except perhaps baby rapers and those who murder the innocents in this world in the name of God, or those who plant bombs to avenge Rushdie's Knighthood. There are countless good people fooled into thinking that your evil cult is a true religion, believing their corrupt spiritual leaders, when they are told that it is their duty kill and die for Islam.
I think you mistake my disgust for hate.

Sublimer actually said:
"Mohammed in Islam, unlike Jesus, is neither divine nor should he be deified or idolized. He is a simple man just like you an me."

So if Mohammad is just a man what gives any Muslim the idea that he is above being pictured anywhere? What gives anyone the right to kill because someone drew a human face and named it Mohammad?

You said:

"Imagine a Muslim telling you that you killed 6 million jews during world war II. What would you answer ? You'd say that it wasn't me it was Nazi Germany. What if he said that that argument doesn't suffice because nazi Germany is still part of the west. So as long as the West killed 6 million Jews, you must have done so too. It just doesn't hold and that's what you are doing by thinking about islam/islamic countries as one bloc."

1. No is saying everyone in Muslim countries is responsible for the actions of others. We are holding you responsible for your own actions. Remember the words of a wise man:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

There are many good Muslims. Why aren't they doing anything? Your public condemnation of groups like al Qaeda and a boycott of the hajj and a refusal to attend mosques where imams preach that all non-Muslims are evil would go a long way. Your silence makes you an accessory.

2. Nazi Germany was a wonderful example. People wanted to avoid a war and so they turned a blind eye to what was done in Germany. The desire for "peace in our time" made us want to find ways to accommodate his demands. The reason Nazi Germany did NOT triumph is that good people were willing to fight and give their own lives for others. It took some time for us to come to terms with what had to be done but we did it.

We were complicit to a degree in the Holocaust but that doesn't absolve Nazi Germany of its responsibility. Fighting the Nazis doesn't absolve us of our own sins in letting this take place, but it was an attempt to make up for it.
In any case, Nazi Germany is NOT part of the West. Nazi Germany was destroyed in World War II. Berlin was reduced to rubble. The country was occupied by the allies and many of its people lived under communist rule for almost fifty years. It still lives with treaty provisions that limit its behavior. The Nazi leaders were put on trial for crimes against humanity and many were hung. Some stayed in prison for the rest of their lives. Some were able to escape and live in the jungles of South America, but many were ultimately brought to justice. None of them were lionized.

Compare that to the Muslims in Palestine who cheered as the WTC towers came down. They were filled with people who had done nothing to the Palestinians. The Palestinians, and all Muslims, lionize Muhammad Atta. You shield Osama bin Laden. If he really went against Islam he would have been killed or turned over to the UN.

I would also say that, on the same basis, Muslims have their own share of responsibility. Unlike the US and most of western Europe, Muslims were allied with the Nazis.

Alright people I am going to go for a bike ride, but a prayer before I go : May Allah reduce your hate, and make you loving and endearing people, may he show you the light and make you smarter people, may he heal you of your paranoia, may he heal you of your blindness so you can see that you are being robbed of your government. Please say Amen. Goodbye !

sublimer how does one achieve peace? how did WW2 end? was it a truce or was it an all out war that brought out peace by totally destryoing the Nazis and Japanese. That is most likely how we need to destroy islam, by totally destroying this black death cult. Peace through victory.

"one day you'll rise and start operating concentration camps just like the nazis did." Oh please. The reality is that if your religious brethren in Iran had the power they'd gladly would wipe out entire nations (Islamist nations wouldn't even bother with concentration camps -- genocide is so much easier). Read the speeches by the Today's Advocate of Genocide -- that's the President of Iran.

Two more posts to answers I am asked and then I go :

"So if Mohammad is just a man what gives any Muslim the idea that he is above being pictured anywhere? What gives anyone the right to kill because someone drew a human face and named it Mohammad?"

good question. here is the answer : Mohammed is not above being pictured. No one can be pictured because that induces idolatry. The mistake the fundies make is the same one you implied through your question.

Quantum :

If you claim Allah to be the creator and lord of all worlds, does Allah love all his creation unconditionally? yes. that doesn't mean he is always merciful. But since he wants all humans to see the light that means that he loves them all conditionally.

It's the same in Christianity. God loves all humans unconditionally but he is still capable of wiping them out like in Noah's deluge if he gets angry.

Thanks but no thanks I have no need of prayer. Too bad you can't answer a simple yes or no question.

What really annoys me about the pro-Islam posts is that they try to pose themselves as the "new Jews." As if they are being persecuted, while they themselves are using the Koran to murder people. Then they whine -- "we're being mistreated!!" What bald-faced lies! complete reversal of reality. (Although, of course, much of the MSM eats it up...as in "Yeah, those racist Europeans!")

"he [Allah] is still capable of wiping them out like in Noah's deluge if he gets angry." Nope. Wrong bible. Look up the verses and you'll see that there is a promise made -- and it's "never again."

Ignorant Muslim bastards. Every culture they have conquered has regressed, not progressed. Islam has created nothing but destroyed much. If they are allowed to continue they will destroy everything.

There are no scholars in his dog pile of a country that is certain.

As for his inability to write correctly ,which means he probably speaks really bad english also,is okay with me.

Why?

Because then you know what you are speaking to or who is saying it.

That simplifies things a bit.Then again that doesn't mean any muslim that speaks fluent english gets a free pass in any case.They are all the same to me.

Yet again more yakity yak from the LOOSERS.

Vile creatures really.

Sublimer:

Thank you.

You show me just how little you understand Western society. David Duke and other white supremacists have no standing in American society. Compare him to Hamas.

Duke made several unsuccessful bids for political office, including runs for the Louisiana House, Louisiana Senate, U.S. Senate, U.S. House, Governor of Louisiana and twice for President of the United States.

There are extremists everywhere. No one denies that. Most have no standing with Americans. Racists and bigots are not welcome. You're really stretching it when you cite David Duke. If you really knew American culture you would have left his name out of your post.

Rogster:

I posted it because I believe the antisemitic nonsense is illuminating in itself.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

True Robert also they write what they speak,which is they hate jews and they know jews know islam is not the answer.

Just as they like to tell people what they do by saying "others" do it,like them saying the west are killing women and children when in fact they are doing the great satans(allah)work.

Just like the one lunatic wrote that if you tell a lie long enough people will believe it,hence we have islam.

They are in fact honest in the most fibbing way.

If one types "Judaism" on YouTube one finds, depressingly, that at least 95% of what comes up consists of anti-Semitic hate rants and a rehashing of unbelievably horrific Medieval-style canards. YouTube keeps these up, making it impossible to find almost anything factual or positive about Jews, their history, Israel/Zionism etc., while allowing Islamo-fascist and Nazi hate rants to remain.

What's up with the double standard and hypocrisy?

sublimer:
My only fear Caroline is that one day you'll rise and start operating concentration camps just like the nazis did. You have already decided to get rid of habeas corpus and become a dictatorship.

I am not American sublimer and from my perspective it is unlikely. The USA has unique institutions that roughly divide powers between executive, legislative & judicial. And it is not possible for a President to serve more than 8 years. The Constitution acts as a framework.

Now you contrast that with the 57-58 OIC countries. Many of them have had Islam for 1000 years guiding them politically and so we are entitled to ask, " If Islam is a paradise, then why are they not better than other countries?"

I note that OIC countries do not support the UN bill of Human Rights but instead support the weaker Cairo 1990 Human Rights.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairo_Declaration_of_Human_Rights
http://www.answers.com/topic/cairo-declaration-on-human-rights-in-islam-1

And those OIC countries : Many of them are run by dictators, they have weak economies, many of them do not make anything, they are corrupt.

See here for the 2007 list of Failed States
www.fundforpeace.org/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=229&Itemid=366

and note where the OIC countries are relative to Western countries (a low figure is good)

See Transparency International
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2006

for a rank index of Corruption in Countries for 2006 (Finland is the best country). Note where Western countries are relative to Islamic countries.

Again:
Why are Islamic countries worse than Western countries as Failed States and Corruption?

exterminate muslims wherever they find them

Sadly it could come to that. But it will be because the rest of the world does not want to have totalitarian Islam imposed on them.
You Muslims started the process. We non-Muslims will finish it.

See the chance of you getting hit by a terrorist attack is just like what Bloomberg said lower than you getting hit by a lightning bolt. He added that with : Get a life.

Yes sure. Nevertheless we have had 1993 World Trade Centre bombings, 9/11, Bali, Theo van Gogh murder, 3/11 (Madrid), 7/7 (London), 21/7 (London again), 2005 French riots, London again. And that list is longer.
I would be quite happy to live at peace.
But the Muslims wont let us.

You think the Muslim world hates you.

Yes that is probably true. But then Muslims are taught to hate non-Muslims by the Quran, it is all in there.

What you don't realize is that now the whole world hates you.

That aint true. The US does have allies and friends around the world. I consider myself a friend. It does not mean to say that I consider everything done by the US is good. On Foreign Policy it is frequently short-sighted. Nevertheless, given time, they will get there.
In contrast the Islamic OIC hellholes will remain hellholes.

It's the same in Christianity. God loves all humans unconditionally but he is still capable of wiping them out like in Noah's deluge if he gets angry.

Sublimer:

Mohammed wasn't God and neither are today's Muslims. If God decides to wipe us out that's one thing, but who gives you the right to decide that you are His messenger and His enforcer? Take care of your own soul! Don't worry about mine.

Mohammad was the one who said no one can be pictured. Mohammad was a man. He has no right to lay down the law for me. He's dust. Modern Muslims have no right to use the words of a man who died fourteen centuries ago to decide what non-Muslim Danes can put in their literature.

Qutb was offended by the sight of liquor stores in America. London's Muslims were apparently offended that a nightclub had a ladies night.
You're all afraid you can't withstand temptation and so you would have us rewrite our laws to protect you from yourselves. Grow a backbone.

Alright people I am going to go for a bike ride, but a prayer before I go : May Allah reduce your hate, and make you loving and endearing people, may he show you the light and make you smarter people, may he heal you of your paranoia, may he heal you of your blindness so you can see that you are being robbed of your government. Please say Amen. Goodbye !

Posted by: sublimer

Sublimer just basicly said "may i hear of your submission soon".

Don't wait up!

I guess the scholar had to go.

See Sublimer run.

Sublimer needed new talking points.

What is so bad about loaning money and charging interest?

You have a person with the requisite virtues to make money, and he just doesn't have it right now, and someone with some extra money, who is willing to loan it out. The loaner is saving the worthy loanee some time by allowing him the use of the money without having to take the time to save it up. The loanee pays for this use of a shortcut by paying interest.

That sum of money the loaner is allowing the loanee to use represents productive effort. Should the loaner just give it away???!

Here is the fruits of a dozen years of work. I'm loaning it to you so you don't have to do it yourself. All I ask is this little fee in lieu of the time and effort I am saving you.

This is bad?

I suppose to those people who gain their money by means other than productive labor...like caravan raiding or jizya, the concept is difficult to grasp.

All Islamic countries are totalitarian dictatorships. No freedom of speech or press. Certainly no freedom for women.
That's what Islam demands - total and complete subjugation of its adherents to a Warlord false prophet and "god" that doesn't exist.

How utterly depressing. No wonder Muslims, for the most part, are insane. Who could live like that???

Newsflash: Muhammed is a human Monster and "allah" doesn't exist! Can you get it, or what??? Just how stupid are you people???

Sublimer as you run off on your bike to your fat bottomed girl,as she makes your rockin' world go 'round.

Know you lost the scholarly battle when you stated "It's the same with the christians".The christian faith is nothing like islam,not even close,NOT even the same God.How can it be?

I know what you muslims fear and that was stated by a muslim celebrating the courts decision of a malaysian woman,i believe,denied her right to change her religion from muslim to christian.

What the muslim interviewed said was they FEARED that if she were to convert from islam there would be a FLOOD of muslims who would want OUT of islam.

Islam converts by the sword and it keeps thier "converts" in line with the sword.

Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

End scholarly chat here! (one sided as usual)

Sublimer

I envision you in a picture one box cartoon rubbing your sore back after your fifth forehead to the mat trip on your prayer rug while the clock on the wall has the # 5 in all twelve positions and the calendar on the wall has # 31 in every box, the caption beneath reading "maybe tomorrow I can quit" as you've "slid from the womb into the waiting straitjacket of Islam" ( credit to HF/JW)

Sublimer posted:

"awake you are falling in the same mistake as the other jihadwatcher. Can Muslims say that America is a safe haven for pedophiles because the people do not demonstrate against it. No, because the police is doing something about it. That's how societies with civil and political structures work. You deny this vision to the Muslim world because you are probably projecting images of Iraq, afghanistan and somalia (areas where there is conflict) to all the Muslim world which extends from Morocco to Indonesia."

You are offering Indonesia as an example of a Muslim nation with no conflict? Are you sure you want to do that?

A couple of observations:

I cannot support name-calling. I mean, "sub-slimer" is funny, but we should try and remember to be better than the haters.

And speaking of better, I'm reminded of a Bill Maher quote (and I'm paraphrasing):

Screw moral relativism. I say that we're better than them.

Rule of Law - Better!
Equality of Sexes - Better!
Freedom of Thought - Better!

I'll add:

Freedom of Expression - Better!
Freedom of Conscience - Better!
Freedom to Disagree - Better!
Freedom of Ideas - Better!

Sublimer:
You cant answer the questions can you?

You cut and run because if we look at Islam, we look at the Quran, Hadith & Sira, look at Muslim history - your case does not stand up.

What a terrible thing to be a Muslim.
You have committed horrible atrocities over 1300 years and now non-Muslims are asking about them.

Sublimer:
You cant answer the questions can you?

You cut and run because if we look at Islam, we look at the Quran, Hadith & Sira, look at Muslim history - your case does not stand up.

UK Infidel Lover:

Isn't it terrible how posters here drive them away? You'd think the people who know theirs is the right way and have all the answers for the rest of the world would be able to justify their positions clearly and succinctly.

Stay safe!

your a funny guy

If you don't care about us, then why have Muslims slaughtered millions of Christians, Jews, Zorastarans(sp?), pagans, Buddhists, and Hindus over the last 1300 years? Seem to me that you don't want to be left alone, Muslims wouldn't have killed all these people and conquored and destroyed many countries otherwise.

I can read through the doublespeak. You don't want the true Islam to be known to people lest they fight back against this evil.

PMK:
Isn't it terrible how posters here drive them away? You'd think the people who know theirs is the right way and have all the answers for the rest of the world would be able to justify their positions clearly and succinctly.

Yes. It amazing how often their case unravels and they cannot stand the heat. I am looking forward to Roberts new book and also Wafi Sultan's book. While there is a lot to be discouraged about (the liberals in Western countries espousing politically correct left-wing dogma and retarding efforts to protect our societies) nevertheless Muslims keep shooting themselves in the foot and helping advance the anti-Jihad movement.

I am somewhat glad about the London bombs as no one was hurt, it was almost certainly Muslims, the UK intelligence services were not pre-warned (and the implications of that means there is a another group of people that are not currently being watched who should be), and the unexploded vechicles means there is a treasure trove of forensic evidence to gather. It will also help keep focusing the mind of British people on the nature of the problem.

We are not there yet. Until our political leaders and journalists appreciate the true nature of Islam we wont be.

I am amused by Pakistanis asking Britain for aid to help them overcome the flooding that has gone on in their country (due to a Hurricane) when only 2 weeks ago they were chanting "Death to Britain. Death to Salman Rushdie" and recommending killing Rushdie.
That is chutzpah I suppose.

Don't hate.....lets barbeque........I have lots of pork chops. Pork for me....a CHOP for you.....
"Islamophobes of the world, Unite!"

Alright I am back and have been reading your answers. It's very sad that most (the haters) cannot answer any of my arguments with meaningful sentences and resort to vulgar name calling and insults. Some suggested that I want to convert them. Please no. Stick to whatever you believe in as long as it is not pure senseless hate. Since I cannot answer all your questions, I am obliged to do something you are all exeperts in : gross generalizing. I will speak to all of you as if you were one entity. Here is one an answer to all : Thinking about the Muslim world as if it is one contingent body is as idiotic as thinking that the West is one body, that a French man is the same as an American, that an American is the same thing as a Mexican and that a Mexican is the same thing as a Serb. Get off your lazy butts and start doing some hard studying over this world you criticize so much and stop being so ethnocentric. On those notes, farewell. I cannot spend my life behind a computer talking to clinically paranoid people with minds so narrow.

Alright I am back and have been reading your answers. It's very sad that most (the haters) cannot answer any of my arguments with meaningful sentences and resort to vulgar name calling and insults. Some suggested that I want to convert them. Please no. Stick to whatever you believe in as long as it is not pure senseless hate. Since I cannot answer all your questions, I am obliged to do something you are all exeperts in : gross generalizing. I will speak to all of you as if you were one entity. Here is one an answer to all : Thinking about the Muslim world as if it is one contingent body is as idiotic as thinking that the West is one body, that a French man is the same as an American, that an American is the same thing as a Mexican and that a Mexican is the same thing as a Serb. Get off your lazy butts and start doing some hard studying over this world you criticize so much and stop being so ethnocentric. On those notes, farewell. I cannot spend my life behind a computer talking to clinically paranoid people with minds so narrow.

sublimer:
Alright I am back and have been reading your answers. Here is one an answer to all : Thinking about the Muslim world as if it is one contingent body is as idiotic as thinking that the West is one body, that a French man is the same as an American, that an American is the same thing as a Mexican and that a Mexican is the same thing as a Serb.

I have answered your points. You have not answered my questions sublimer. Why is that?

The above is not a good answer.
I dont think of the Muslim world as one block and I dont think anyone here does. But what is true is that there One Quran, Various respected by Muslims Hadith collections and the the Sira.
No Muslim disgrees on content.
Why dont you answer on the verses I quoted and points raised?

On those notes, farewell. I cannot spend my life behind a computer talking to clinically paranoid people with minds so narrow.

You still cant answer then

UK Infidel, is this your question ? :

"Why are Islamic countries worse than Western countries as Failed States and Corruption?" If it is here is the answer : Have you ever heard of colonization ? stealing raw materials from colonized states to further the industrial revolution in western countries. How about slavery ? If you look at the map you linked to the division between failed states and moderate states is not between the west and muslim countries. There are a lot of non-muslim and christian countries especially in Africa that are also considered among the failed states. That means that division is not between West and muslim states, it is between the ex-colonizer and the ex-colonized, that is the First world and what we still call the third world.

Modern colonization started in 1395 and ended at the end of the 20th century.

sublimer: "My only fear Caroline is that one day you'll rise and start operating concentration camps just like the nazis did."

All of dar al Islam is one big concentration camp for infidels. Why don't you check out the demographic stats on the declining number of Christians, Jews and Hindus in dar al islam. They're all disappearing through ethnic cleansing in what amounts to a slow mo concentration camp for infidels in dar al-Islam.

It's obvious that you and your "brothers" couldn't give a damn though. So don't come crying to me if and when the shoe winds up on the other foot.

This is what happens when a human is instructed to drinking camel "juice".

It did'nt work.

"Thinking about the Muslim world as if it is one contingent body is as idiotic as thinking that the West is one body..." Of course we can think of the West as one entity. Note the poster did so in the very sentence I've quoted. When we speak of the West, we refer to common, shared values -- freedoms, civil liberties, rule of law, democracy, civil societies. And, i might add, that if this poster really believes that it's "idiotic" to think of the Muslim world as one entity, then he should address his concerns to the OIC. Go tell them they're being idiotic.

In terms of "development" -- there are recognized criteria for measurement. and, no, it's not just about money or economic wealth. there was a United Nations Development Report -- remember that one? It gave such indicators as the number of books published in the Arab world.

There are any number of Arab states which have never been "colonized" yet rank at or near the bottom in terms of literacy, book publishing, inventions, university citations, research, etc.

I'll look up that report again...it was quite shocking. and Saudi Arabia with its oil wealth has no excuse whatsoever to have rampant illiteracy in its population (especially among women).

And please stop the pointing the finger at the West; we're sick of your playing the guilt trip and blaming all your woes on others. look at your own societies and acknowledge your problems -- don't blame others.

sublimer:
Thinking about the Muslim world as if it is one contingent body is as idiotic as thinking that the West is one body, that a French man is the same as an American, that an American is the same thing as a Mexican and that a Mexican is the same thing as a Serb.

Idiotic or not, you seem to be making a category error here. 'The West' is not a religion. It does not insist on unquestioning loyalty to an obtuse manuscript read in a (mostly foreign) language for no emotional/romantic reasons rather than scholarly ones.
Irrationality has a particular trigger which you can easily test for yourself: anytime something makes you so mad that you wish to kill the offender, you have exposed an area of neurosis in your own psychological make-up. Let's test this hypothesis: I say Mohammad was a deranged megalomaniac whose evil influence spread via a bunch of semi-illiterate infighting desert nomads to countries which as a result have all deteriorated into hateful latrine-like swamps of ignorance and unrestrained evil.

One-tru-voice:
In my youth I lived and taught in Manchester (St Thomas Aquinas RC High School in Chorlton). Nice to see nothing has changed. A piece of advice to you also: do NOT rely on your school to teach you ANYTHING. Mine was so politically (rather than factually) correct that management insisted I teach that Beethoven was of African decent (!!). Why they thought African musicians needed him to swell their very capable ranks I have no idea.
One-tru-voice - please use Manchester's wonderful central library, or indeed the internet, and set out to acquire your own education.

Modern colonization started in 1395 and ended at the end of the 20th century.

Sublimer:

Prior to that time the Muslims were doing the colonizing. Remember Spain? Spain recovered from seven hundred years of Islam. Had they not been driven back at Vienna, Muslims would have colonized most of Europe at the very same time that Europeans were exploring the Americas. Don't blame everything on colonization. It built up your societies. Besides, your religion should be strong enough to withstand the worst Western dictatorship, as Catholicism in Poland survived Communism without Catholics going out and killing Communists.

After that time most Muslim countries were "colonized" by other Muslims, specifically, the Ottoman Turks. Funny how the end of the colonial period coincides almost exactly with the fall of Turkey. The Asian countries, Malaysia and Indonesia, while they have become Islamist in recent decades have nothing near the virulence exhibited by Arab societies. Why? Because they resent Arab domination as much as anyone.

It's amazing how much blame the Brits and the French take for what - forty years? Islam can't recover from forty years of British and French influence? Boy is it weak!!!

And who colonized the prime colonizer, Saudi Arabia, the source of the Wahhabist doctrines?

sublimer:
re. killing 6 million Jews in the holocaust:
First of all thank you for acknowledging that someone did, but secondly: despite being too young to have any personal connection to this period in history, I have heard repeatedly :" You killed the Jews." I'm German, you see. It is not as ridiculous as you make out to look for the responsibility for this horrific chapter in history among 'The West'. Many 'good' people did nothing. Many 'moderate' nations did nothing - despite being aware. In my family's memory (not the scholarly view I admit), the English were seen as cruel and cowardly, the French as weak and two-faced, the Russians as utter barbarians, and the Americans(both the GIs and the CARE-parcel-sending state-siders)......as liberating heroes. Defending a murderous supremacist ideology because it 'works' in some places at some times (as when Hitler build Autobahns and got Germans working again), is still irresponsible, dumb and plain wrong.

After trying to read that, I am expected to believe that these people don't drink alcohol or do drugs? Why can't they write or talk coherently? I still remember in the 70's, I was watching Arafat on TV, and he said "...between 3 and 5 people..." and held up, I kid you not, TWO fingers. It sure the hell wasn't a peace sign...

Ignorant Muslim bastards. If their sulture is so "superior" why are they all getting out of their third world POS countries and emigrating to the West? If their ways are better wouldn't it be the other way around? Or could they be coming here to try and bring us down to their level?

You typed "LEAVE US ALONE TO OUR LIFE".

Go back to nomad's land..get out of our country. It is you that want to change our way of life...or do you lose track of history and today's happening's. Who are the one's who try terror tactics...huh? Who are the headhunter's? Your kind , Princess of Hell!

if you mess with us THIS TRUE Princess of the ARABS and Indian and CHINA and Africa will BLOW you out...

Princess of Hell..is this a threat to America? Don't trample on my grounds..don't trample on my flag..don't trample on my people. You may not like us...you start it, we surely will finish it.

Just like Robert has been saying all along...

[-]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html

My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror

As the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong

Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.
By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

Friday's attempt to cause mass destruction in London with strategically placed car bombs is so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that it is likely to have been carried out by my former peers.
And as with previous terror attacks, people are again articulating the line that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy. For example, yesterday on Radio 4's Today programme, the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: 'What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq.'

He then refused to acknowledge the role of Islamist ideology in terrorism and said that the Muslim Brotherhood and those who give a religious mandate to suicide bombings in Palestine were genuinely representative of Islam.

I left the BJN in February 2006, but if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again. Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the 7 July bombings, and I were both part of the BJN - I met him on two occasions - and though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many of my peers to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain, our own homeland and abroad, was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary state that would eventually bring Islamic justice to the world.

How did this continuing violence come to be the means of promoting this (flawed) utopian goal? How do Islamic radicals justify such terror in the name of their religion? There isn't enough room to outline everything here, but the foundation of extremist reasoning rests upon a dualistic model of the world. Many Muslims may or may not agree with secularism but at the moment, formal Islamic theology, unlike Christian theology, does not allow for the separation of state and religion. There is no 'rendering unto Caesar' in Islamic theology because state and religion are considered to be one and the same. The centuries-old reasoning of Islamic jurists also extends to the world stage where the rules of interaction between Dar ul-Islam (the Land of Islam) and Dar ul-Kufr (the Land of Unbelief) have been set down to cover almost every matter of trade, peace and war.

What radicals and extremists do is to take these premises two steps further. Their first step has been to reason that since there is no Islamic state in existence, the whole world must be Dar ul-Kufr. Step two: since Islam must declare war on unbelief, they have declared war upon the whole world. Many of my former peers, myself included, were taught by Pakistani and British radical preachers that this reclassification of the globe as a Land of War (Dar ul-Harb) allows any Muslim to destroy the sanctity of the five rights that every human is granted under Islam: life, wealth, land, mind and belief. In Dar ul-Harb, anything goes, including the treachery and cowardice of attacking civilians.

This understanding of the global battlefield has been a source of friction for Muslims living in Britain. For decades, radicals have been exploiting these tensions between Islamic theology and the modern secular state for their benefit, typically by starting debate with the question: 'Are you British or Muslim?' But the main reason why radicals have managed to increase their following is because most Islamic institutions in Britain just don't want to talk about theology. They refuse to broach the difficult and often complex topic of violence within Islam and instead repeat the mantra that Islam is peace, focus on Islam as personal, and hope that all of this debate will go away.

This has left the territory of ideas open for radicals to claim as their own. I should know because, as a former extremist recruiter, every time mosque authorities banned us from their grounds, it felt like a moral and religious victory.

Outside Britain, there are those who try to reverse this two-step revisionism. A handful of scholars from the Middle East has tried to put radicalism back in the box by saying that the rules of war devised by Islamic jurists were always conceived with the existence of an Islamic state in mind, a state which would supposedly regulate jihad in a responsible Islamic fashion. In other words, individual Muslims don't have the authority to go around declaring global war in the name of Islam.

But there is a more fundamental reasoning that has struck me and a number of other people who have recently left radical Islamic networks as a far more potent argument because it involves stepping out of this dogmatic paradigm and recognising the reality of the world: Muslims don't actually live in the bipolar world of the Middle Ages any more.

The fact is that Muslims in Britain are citizens of this country. We are no longer migrants in a Land of Unbelief. For my generation, we were born here, raised here, schooled here, we work here and we'll stay here. But more than that, on a historically unprecedented scale, Muslims in Britain have been allowed to assert their religious identity through clothing, the construction of mosques, the building of cemeteries and equal rights in law.

However, it isn't enough for Muslims to say that because they feel at home in Britain they can simply ignore those passages of the Koran which instruct on killing unbelievers. By refusing to challenge centuries-old theological arguments, the tensions between Islamic theology and the modern world grow larger every day. It may be difficult to swallow but the reason why Abu Qatada - the Islamic scholar whom Palestinian militants recently called to be released in exchange for the kidnapped BBC journalist Alan Johnston - has a following is because he is extremely learned and his religious rulings are well argued. His opinions, though I now thoroughly disagree with them, have validity within the broad canon of Islam.

Since leaving the BJN, many Muslims have accused me of being a traitor. If I knew of any impending attack, then I would have no hesitation in going to the police, but I have not gone to the authorities, as some reports have suggested, and become an informer.

I believe that the issue of terrorism can be easily demystified if Muslims and non-Muslims start openly to discuss the ideas that fuel terrorism. (The Muslim community in Britain must slap itself awake from this state of denial and realise there is no shame in admitting the extremism within our families, communities and worldwide co-religionists.) However, demystification will not be achieved if the only bridges of engagement that are formed are between the BJN and the security services.

If our country is going to take on radicals and violent extremists, Muslim scholars must go back to the books and come forward with a refashioned set of rules and a revised understanding of the rights and responsibilities of Muslims whose homes and souls are firmly planted in what I'd like to term the Land of Co-existence. And when this new theological territory is opened up, Western Muslims will be able to liberate themselves from defunct models of the world, rewrite the rules of interaction and perhaps we will discover that the concept of killing in the name of Islam is no more than an anachronism.

Hassanbutt1@gmail.com

[-]

"We do NOT CARE ABOUT you," excuse me sir. Why are your hackles on edge? and why did you take the time to post here?

mustang65- that thing called itself Princess