Sharia Alert from New Hampshire: polygamy is, like all of Islam, just great and severely misunderstood. "Multiple wives often misunderstood, Muslims say," by Chloe Johnson for Foster's Online, with thanks to WriterMom:
While the practice is not legal in the United States, polygamy is accepted in some parts of the world and permitted under certain circumstances in some religions, including Islam.Abu-Ibrahim Mohamed, a member of the Islamic Society of the Seacoast Area in Dover, said Muslims look to their faith for guidance in life, including a perspective on polygamy.
"Islam presents a unique world view and a complete way of life," he said in an e-mail to the newspaper.
Muslims look upon marriage as a scared institution and a serious commitment, he said.
Polygamy is a highly regulated contract that multiplies the vows of marriage. So it's an additional challenge for the faithful, he said.
"Many times, polygamy is looked at as man's right to legally marry more than one woman," he said. "This is a totally flawed way of looking at the matter."
He said people should consider looking at it as a woman's right to be cared for and provided for, and to have the full legal rights of a wife.
The Quran regulates polygamy, like other aspects of life, he said.
There are conditions that make polygamy permitted at times and prohibited at others, and recommended for some and not others depending on the circumstances, he said. The issue is misunderstood by many, even some Muslims.
Stereotypes also cause misunderstanding. This has led many Muslims in the United States to take a defensive or sometimes apologetic approach resulting in more inaccurate representations, he said.
Mohamed said many Muslim Americans would agree that the outlawing of polygamy is denying certain citizens their full freedom of religion.
Also, he said, many Muslim Americans "can't understand the reasons behind outlawing polygamy while tolerating other practices or affairs that are void of any legal commitments or moral values."
But legalizing polygamy does not mean conditions are appropriate for its practice, he said. Prevailing cultural norms, economic conditions, or other regulations might not make polygamy viable.
That's why it is "highly unlikely" that many Muslim Americans would practice polygamy even if it is legalized, he said.
Debra Majeed, an assistant professor in religious studies at Beloit College in Wisconsin, has conducted research on polygyny among Muslim Americans.
The practice of polygyny (a husband taking more than one wife) is limited to a minority of the global Muslim community, and less than 1 percent of the American Muslim population practices it, she said.
Taking the Pew Research Center's figure of 2.35 million Muslims in America, that's less than 23,500 polygamists in the United States.
No Polyandry, no Peace!
I guess we should be grateful that Mr. Mohamed is here to explain that having more than one wife does not mean having more than one wife.
"He said people should consider looking at it as a woman's right to be cared for and provided for, and to have the full legal rights of a wife."
ROFLOL!
Hey, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck. The upshot is, he gets four wives and I get one husband I have to share with three other women.
Islam stinks to high heaven!
If polygamy is so great, why doesnt Islam sanction polyandry?
The truth is that no wife really wants to share her husband with other wives. Inevitably that means less time for her. There is nothing great about this. Time for the States to get tough about this, same as they did with Utah.
Polygamy is just legalised prostitution.
If polygamy is so great, why doesnt Islam sanction polyandry?
The truth is that no wife really wants to share her husband with other wives. Inevitably that means less time for her. There is nothing great about this. Time for the States to get tough about this, same as they did with Utah.
Polygamy is just legalised prostitution.
If polygamy is so great, why doesnt Islam sanction polyandry?
The truth is that no wife really wants to share her husband with other wives. Inevitably that means less time for her. There is nothing great about this. Time for the States to get tough about this, same as they did with Utah.
Polygamy is just legalised prostitution.
"He said people should consider looking at it as a woman's right to be cared for and provided for, and to have the full legal rights of a wife."
In other words...
(1) Women are inferior and must be cared for
(2) legal rights of a wife in Islam are not equal to the rights of a wife is western civilization
New Hampshire?
Now that's funny, another Mohamad, another age, same old story...
Does Mit Romney know about this. He said he cant think of anything worse than poligamy. It's odd that many muslims, do have several wive's while at the same time there are jillions's of horney little devils, who become jihadists, not because they hate the enemy, but because they cant get a woman, and Allah's 72 is really appealing. Any ole port in a storm...
A good book to not only read about what polygamy does to women, and men, and also about Egypt and the society there is, 'Now They Call Me Infidel'. It is written by an ex-muslim woman.
I found it very enlightening as to the fracture it causes between women. There are no female friends because they could be the next wife and that means less for the other wives and children. the one person the wives depend on are usually the sons which also makes a disjointed union between mother and son. And the work habits of muslims vs dhimmi is also talked about. Of course, it is interleaved with her personal story of growing up in Egypt and thereafter.
Women are considered property in muslim countries like saudi arabia, yemen, pakistan, etc. That is why they have mutliple marriages.
Most men have a hard time handling one woman and one marriage, why have more problems with more wives.
duh_swami, you hit the nail on head with that post. This has been a known fact about poligamy but no one dares state this truth. Not very PC to make that statement.
Where is NOW on this one?
The other fundamental truth is that poligamy is not a family value. Think I'll have a bumber sticker of that one made...
"Abu-Ibrahim Mohamed, a member of the Islamic Society of the Seacoast Area in Dover, said Muslims look to their faith for guidance in life, including a perspective on polygamy."
....IT would appear they are not getting good answers....
callmeinfidel et al,
With polygamous Moromonism, a wife can only get to the heavenly level that her husband attains. Looser husband, low status in the afterlife, So think of it this way: A man has six wives who want to get to a cool planet in the afterlife. You bet he's gonna do what it takes for the latter day saints to keep his wives off his back.
In Islam a husband has to care for each wife equally. So you have to be either very wealthy or very poor to have more than one wife. In effect, polygamy keeps the poor poor. Since one wife can't work, none of them can. You have this dirt poor population perpetuating itself and producing more little baby machines/workers/fighters. The few filthy rich can do what they want. They can afford to provide lavish homes for their wives, send their children to expensive schools in the West and have their slaves (excuse me, hired poor Asians) for their frustrated wives to beat. They dress western and mingle with the wealthy westerners and everyone thinks it's all just peachy.
In each polygamous culture this practice is used to control both sexes and the working middle classes. It puts women against each other and creats a population of frustrated young males. People are spending so much time fighting amongst themselves that they never unite to throw off their yoke...
Great system. Let's let more of them in!
"callmeinfidel et al,
With polygamous Moromonism, a wife can only get to the heavenly level that her husband attains. Looser husband, low status in the afterlife, So think of it this way: A man has six wives who want to get to a cool planet in the afterlife. You bet he's gonna do what it takes for the latter day saints to keep his wives off his back."
Incorrect assumption, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints(mormons) neither the man, nor the woman can achieve the highest kingdom of heaven without a celestial marriage, they are interdependant, if one does not live up to the required standards their promise is lost and they do not achieve the highest paradise; HOWEVER the "good" spouse (of either gender) is only penalized in that their spouse is not there with them.
Regarding plural marriage or Polygamy:
Link
In the October 1998 general conference, President Gordon B. Hinckley made the following statement about the Church's position on plural marriage: "This Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. . . . If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church."
The Mormons policy on polygamy is excellent example of what needs to happen to Islam.
The doctrine of polygamy originated with the founding prophet, and was considered a very important, if not essential creed of their beliefs at the time.
"Smith received the divine seal of approval in the form of a new revelation to the effect that polygamy was now commanded by the Lord: "And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me." This "new and everlasting covenant" had to be practiced by all Mormons, as far as possible, on pain of eternal damnation (DC 52:132)"
Eventually it was discarded however, and is now outlawed by the major official Church, due mostly to pressure applied by the government.
Both the governments handling of the issue in a stead fast and direct resistance to the doctrine, as well as the churches response of giving up the egregious policy handed down by its founder, are fine examples of the sort of thing that needs to happen within Islam today.
morguerat,
I am refering to the fundamentalist Mormons who practive illegal poligamy and live in remote areas of the western US. Everone knows what goes on in those communities but nothing is done about them. Girls as young as 14 are married off. It's disgusting. If this is so repugnant to the "Mainstream LDS Church" why is so little done about it in Utah, Arizona, and Idaho. I have also read much of the original LDS doctrine. I know about the celestial marriage bilge and that exclusionary temple mumbo jumbo. Many Mormon wives DO BELIEVE that they are only going as far as their husbands go. I used to live in Mormon communities were I was considered persona non grata because I was a Gentile and politely turned away the nice clean-cut missionaries. So if you will, I have kinda a taste of what it's like to be a religious minority.
When ANY fundamentalist religion or cult takes control of a community the minorities are pushed out. LDS folks just have it down to a subtile art.
Don't forget the OTHER Septemper 11th: The Mountain Meadows Massacre. Whether massacres like this were "policy" of the LDS church or not in the mid 1800's is something that is suspect and a possiblity. I've also overheard mainstream Mormons say things like "I'm closer to Islam that I am Christianity." Scary indeed. I'll never trust Mitt Romney for as far as I can throw him.
from the article: "Also, he said, many Muslim Americans "can't understand the reasons behind outlawing polygamy while tolerating other practices or affairs that are void of any legal commitments or moral values."
This is similar to the argument they make about mut'ah (temporary) marriages. Islam permits Muslim men to have an unlimited number of partners, through polygamy and temporary marriages and because this falls within Islamic law, it is now suddenly “moral”, unlike immoral western men who frequent prostitutes and shack up with their girlfriends or cheat on their wives. In their minds, apparently, because they have made this all legal in Sharia law, it is now "moral" while what western men do is "immoral". By that logic, if we were to legalize pedophilia, then those practicing pedophilia within this new legal context would be morally superior to those practicing pedophilia outside that legal context. Imagine a pedophile practicing "legal pedophilia" claiming such moral superiority over the illegally practicing pedophiles (maybe you just go down to the courthouse and get a legal “pedophilia permit”). Wouldn't that be a tacit admission that there was indeed something wrong with pedophilia? But that's what this guy is in a sense acknowledging about polygamy when he points to similar sexual profligacy among western men and refers to "practices or affairs that are void of any....moral values". Right there is a tacit admission that the essence of polygamy is immoral!
But when western men cheat on their wives, they (mostly) know they are doing something immoral (simply because they are aware of the pain it would cause to their wives should they find out). It is obviously hurtful, as any man - even a Muslim man - would know if he had been cheated on. Whereas Muslim men do something that is terribly hurtful, and thus immoral, but they don’t care because they have a superficial legal cover for it. Even Muhammad knew that polygamy was hurtful to women, which is why he forbid his stepson Ali from taking a second wife after Muhammad’s own daughter Fatima as conveyed in a hadith:
Bukhari 7.62.157
Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:
I heard Allah's Apostle who was on the pulpit, saying, "Banu Hisham bin Al-Mughira have requested me to allow them to marry their daughter to Ali bin Abu Talib, but I don't give permission, and will not give permission unless 'Ali bin Abi Talib divorces my daughter in order to marry their daughter, because Fatima is a part of my body, and I hate what she hates to see, and what hurts her, hurts me."
Jesus said: "If your right hand offend you, cut it off. Better that than that you should end up in an abyss of wickedness and sin."
Muhammad said: "What your right hand possesses is yours."
Christianity is a spiritually uplifting faith that requires sacrifice.
Islam is a materialistic as well as militaristic creed that degrades and degenerates its adherents.
=====================
“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the
next of its dignity and sanctity.
The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the
religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.”
One thing that truly makes me sick is the MSM's double standard in dealing with Mormon vs Muslim polygamy. When the MSM was reporting on the whole Warren Jeff's thing, the local reporters on major cable channels adopted a tone of "let's check out these really creepy, creepy cultish people". They didn't hesitate either to report on the apparent number of young teenage boys who were expelled from the community because they would create excess competition for the older men (I believe that 60 minutes had a piece about that). But when it comes to Muslim polygamy, we get the Little House on the Polygamous Prairie show in Canada and no discussion whatsoever of the issue that duh_swami raised, which is that an excess of unmarried young men in any society creates a war machine. In fact, I just read an entire interview on that very topic - the demographics of war being entirely predictable on the basis of the excess number of young men who can't find spouses. I can't remember where I read it or I would link to it.
Sigh.
Groan.
Unfortunately, yes, New Hampshire . . .Dover is but an hours drive away from Amherst. . .vomit.
Caroline---was it Der Spiegel?
Re the whole phenomenon of many young men in Warren Jeff's cult being expelled from the community, something just occurred to me. Many posters here over the years have commented on the hypocricy of prominent imams exhorting young Muslim men to jihad, while never sacrificing themselves. It would be interesting to find out how many of those prominent clerics and imams have multiple wives themselves. Because right there you would find one obvious reason for their hypocrisy. Just like Warren Jeffs, they need to find a way to get rid of all those young male competitors, so as not to threaten their own cushy thing.
One of the most common justifications for polygamy that Muslim apologists offer is that it takes care of the widows in war ravaged societies. Well of course right there the association is made between warrior societies and polygamy! Since early Islam under Muhammad was a warrior society, it's pretty obvious why he endorsed polygamy (he wasn't a polygamist prior to Medina - he was married monogomously to his first wife for many years), being the expedient moralist that he was.
But now the situation has changed dramatically in Muslim countries. Despite islam's claim to fame for having forbid female infanticide, apparently the prospects for females are so bad that many females are not buried alive but simply abandoned on the street. There may be other reasons for it as well, but apparently now there's a definite excess of young men. If Islam was "perfect", as Muslims think, the logical solution to that dilemma would be polyandry. Forget the mut'ah marriages as a solution. Why not go all out with polyandry if Islam is the perfect solution? Well, we know why. Because Muslim men would never ever put up with what they expect Muslim women to endure. Now we've got all those extra young men. If you were an imam or cleric living the life of Riley with your 4 wives, what would be your solution to the problem of all those young men?
radishthegreat - your link doesn't work but yes - now that you mention it, I'm quite confident that it was indeed an interview in Der Spiegel. Thank you!
Whoops! I was wrong. It wasn't der Speigel (rather originally at "Sappho") but it was German. The interview was translated at Gates of Vienna and he's talking about a "youth bulge" (something that Spengler has also addressed a great deal):
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/06/continent-of-losers.html
POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW-FULL STOP!
Interesting - as just a little over a year ago dhimmi media and US "law enforcement authorities" were broadcasting fullout pursuit of a person considered a "menace to society", leader of a "mind controlling, oppressive cult, ..." in which women are oppressed ... more than in any other cult" and who "...dominates the lives of his followers, ... deciding who marries whom, and enforcing a strict dress code ...", worst of all a polygamist, etc., etc.
These program interrupting "breaking news reports" were followed - a few days later - with scenes of the evil doer - captured, in chains, on his way to justice... And the USA - was once again - all safe and sound.
Anybody - why do muslims/illegal immigrants/other criminals get a pass.
Sounds like The Big Tent theory.
Maybe that's why our politicos want more Mohammedans coming.
More wives (even illegally) equals more voters.
Pander to them, and they're yours.
Treasonous tenure, -for as long as the country lasts.
He may be onto something that Christians and Jews should emulate. Let all the non-Muslims have multiple wives and procreate faster than rabbits. Then let's hear what the imam has to say about polygamy.
chsw
I disagree with your Math here. If there are 2.35 million Muslims in the U.S., assume only 50% are Male and that 40% are too young to be married. (in this country at least). This would leave about 4,700 Polygamist men if 1% practiced Polygamy.
I think what we need to really adress is the problems that Polygamy cause.
From the Gates of Vienna Blogspot
Heinsohn does not believe for a second that economic aid and hunger relief in countries with large youth populations can prevent wars, social unrest, terror or killings. On the contrary he is convinced that in some cases material aid may start the killings. This is because starving people do not fight, they just suffer. However, if you give a lot of young men enough to eat and a certain education in a society where there are too many young men so that not all can get the recognition and positions that they feel entitled to, it may lead to violence.
The 63-year-old sociology professor at the University of Bremen published his findings in his sensational and politically incorrect book Söhne und Weltmacht: Terror im Aufstieg und Fall der Nationen [Sons and World Domination: Terror in the Rise and Fall of Nations], published in 2003. The book became widely known and discussed after the prominent German philosopher Peter Sloterdijk had characterised it as being as groundbreaking as Karl Marx’s Das Kapital. Sloterdijk thought that the book might pave the way for a new realism within a field that might be labelled “Demographic Materialism”.
Heinsohn is not concerned with the absolute size of populations, but rather with the share of teenagers and young men. If this share becomes too big compared to the total population, we are facing a youth bulge. The problem starts when families begin to produce three, four or more sons. This will cause the sons to fight over access to the positions in society that give power and prestige. Then you will have a lot of boys and young men running around filled with aggression and uncontrollable hormones. And then we shall experience mass killings, until a sufficient number of young men have been eradicated to match society’s ability to provide positions for the survivors.
My Note: Bin Laden is one of 50 children of a Saudi polygamist.
According to Heinsohn, 80 per cent of world history is about young men in nations with a surplus of sons, creating trouble. This trouble may take many forms — a increase in domestic crime, attempts at coups d’état, revolutions, riots and civil wars. Occasionally, the young commit genocide to secure for themselves the positions that belonged to those they killed. Finally, there is war to conquer new territory, killing the enemy population and replacing it with one’s own.
But, as Heinsohn emphasizes again and again, the unrest and the violent acts caused by youth bulges have nothing to do with famine or unemployment. In his book he describes it as follows: “The dynamic of a youth bulge — it cannot be emphasized too often — is not caused by a lack of food. A younger brother, who may be employed as a stable hand by the first-born son and who may be well fed and perhaps even fat, does not seek food but position, one that can guarantee him recognition, influence and dignity. Not the underweight but rather the potential losers or the déclassé are pushing forward” (p. 21).
In recent years the West has been facing a gigantic youth bulge in large parts of the Muslim world. This bulge is created by a Muslim population explosion. Over the course of just five generations (1900-2000) the population in the Muslim countries has grown from 150 million to 1 200 million — an increase of 800 per cent. As a comparison the population of China has grown from 400 million to 1 200 million (300 per cent). The population of India has risen from 250 million to 1000 million (400 per cent).
Look on the bright side. At least the number of Muslims practicing polygamy in the US is far lower than those in the US who support suicide bombings as a warranted defense of Islam, as indicated by the Pew polls.
That's a good thing.....right???
Abu Ibrahim Mohamed said:
This sounds suspiciously like: "Many times, slavery is looked at as a man's right to legally own human beings. This is a totally flawed way of looking at the matter. People should consider looking at it as a slave's right to be fed and put to work..."
Whose zoomin' who? Are Muslims following our laws or are we following theirs'?
Caroline wrote: ".....an excess of unmarried young men in any society creates a war machine."
Indeed! Note that the musulmen are not the only ones to whom this description applies!
Most of the several million illegal Mexicans here in the U.S are unmarried young men who hate America, and because of the ( bizarre ) culture of China which prefers sons to daughters, the Chinese have a huge surplus of young men who will never find wives.
I had always wondered what the future would look like. Now I know. The 20th century was the century of the Nazis and the Communists with a death toll of around 180 million people. The 21st Century will be the century of the Muslims, the Mexicans, and the Maoists ( Chicom .) Anyone care to take bets on what the death toll will be??
One of the last few patriots left: Sobering thoughts for the late night. Wealthy Gulf Arabs, diplomats, businessmen, students, bring into the US a wife/her sister/domestic help. In reality, those women are his first wife, his second wife, slaves from Asia to look after children and the home. If I know this, our government officials know this and turn a blind eye...over and over again. A number of years ago, I heard that Disney World has an unofficial policy of also looking the other way on polygamy. Luxury suites, all connecting, are booked in such a way to make sure that wealthy Muslim men can oversee their wives, children and slaves in a suitable way, as they visit the Magic Kingdom.
These are war years.
The war is specifically for the purpose of fending off jihad and sharia.
We are perfectly sanguine about having a national debate about gay marriage, and forming constitutional amendments to dictate that marriage applies only to heterosexual couples.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of that are, we're fine about debating rules on that subject, forming laws and enforcing them.
Mormon polygamists in Utah? Booga booga! Have to rush in and arrest them right away!
But mohammedan polygamy? Oh! Hush, hush! Mustn't tick off the scary mohammedans!
We're in a war folks -- a war against jihad and sharia.
Some mohammedan has two wives? Excellent! Bust him! Wrap him up and pack him off to wherever he came from.
As a cop once said about some particularly nasty drug dealers in an urban neighborhood, "Those guys? Drugs? Hell, air should be illegal if they breathe it!".
I posted this on the British site UP POMPEII recently when it was claimed there were "only 1000" polygamous muslims in Britain.
Only a 1000 you have to be joking!
It must be five years since an unpleasant sounding Muslim woman was interviewed demanding legalisation of polygamy on BBC Radio 4’s “Today” telling John Humphrey’s that Muslims “Had been supporting the Labour Party for years and is about time they had some payback”. That is pretty much a direct quote and I assumed the item was specifically included to “test the water”.
About three years ago the same ststion devoted half an hour one afternoon midweek to the subject of polygamous marriages. This included interview with several men and women (including it has to be said some ethnic Englishwoman) who were in polygamous marriages with muslims. The whole tone of the programme was; “Gosh I didn't know polygamous marriages was so common!” I would have thought that if Radio 4 said they were “common” it would suggest a great deal more than 1000. I thought the politicians were testing the water again.
In my experience of the poorer Asian communities it appeared normal for men in their Forties to divorce their first wife and bring in a young woman from Pakistan or Bangladesh and raise a second family. Wife number one generally lived close by on social security. The British film “East is East” was based on an actual family 30 years ago and part of the story concerned the English second wife refusing to allow wife number one join them from Pakistan.
The more educated Muslims are much more open about it. Within the last three months the young British born and educated colleague of a family member married his 4th wife. He said he knew only one was legal but he didn't think it was a problem. I don't think it will be because Labour's first action on taking power was to pay off its Muslim voters by abolishing the last restrictions on overseas marriages. Consequently 60 per cent of all Muslims now bring in partners from the Indian sub-continent. It's therefore reasonable to assume that at least two of this young man's four wives have been brought in illegally.
Only a 1000 you have to be joking!
In the case of the US I would say, only 20,000 you have to be joking!
Polygamy is just another name for legalized slavery
and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome...
Er...okay, but the "strong arms of science" have proved themselves grossly incapable of defending Europe against the growing predations of Islamification so far.
Maybe it is Christianity that will save modern secular Europe, not the other way around?
Where is NOW?
Too busy fighting for gay/lesbian/transgender rights and legalized gay marriage to care about women who are beaten and stoned for showing a little bit of ankle....
Too busy launching campaigns about "body image" and sexist advertising and how noble it is to "let yourself go" to support women who are under death threat for speaking out about Muslim women's rights (or lack of rights, more accurately...)
Too busy ridiculing George W. Bush and protesting against any and all of his policies to worry about polygamy, honor killing or wife beating among Muslim extremists....
They do, however, care at least a LITTLE about polygamy among Mormons and offer at least one book on their website about the victimization of Mormon women....while offering not a single volume about the abuse suffered by Muslim women under radical Islam....
Where's NOW? Too busy serving as unofficial campaign headquarters for Hillary Clinton's presidential bid to worry about the mothers, sisters and cousins of men who train 12 year old boys to cut off people's heads on video tape...
Here's more:
published in the Philadelphia Daily News
SOME WOMEN MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
By DONNA BAVER ROVITO
http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20070313_SOME_WOMEN_MORE_EQUAL_THAN_OTHERS.html
Anonymous Orthodox: "Er...okay, but the "strong arms of science" have proved themselves grossly incapable of defending Europe against the growing predations of Islamification so far. Maybe it is Christianity that will save modern secular Europe, not the other way around?"
I see your point but at the same time, maybe its actually certain Christian precepts - like Be Kind and Love Your Neighbor that are incapacitating us here. Certainly it is science that gives us the weapons capability to make short shrift of this problem but it would be Christianity that would hold us back from using that superior technology (although if the shoe were on the other foot we know how that would turn out).
But aside from weapons, there is still old-fashioned, stoned-cold logic (which underlies science). If we took off the Christian kid-gloves about being nice (or maybe the fear is that by doing so, Christianity would also come under assault?), we could mount a serious campaign which would demolish Islam as a viable ideology.
For example, sura 4:82 of the Koran states "Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity."
So in other words, any incongruity in the Koran proves, acccording to the Koran itself, that the Koran is not from Allah.
So go to it people!
It isn't science which is currently preventing such an intellectual assault on the Muslim "religion". It's Christian ideas of being "nice".
It isn't science which is currently preventing such an intellectual assault on the Muslim "religion". It's Christian ideas of being "nice".
Actually, in Europe and elsewhere it's secular humanism and it's misguided progeny multiculturalism that are keeping the "kid gloves" on and choking out substantive discussion of Islam.
Anonymous Orthodox: "Actually, in Europe and elsewhere it's secular humanism and it's misguided progeny multiculturalism that are keeping the "kid gloves" on and choking out substantive discussion of Islam."
What the hell IS "secular humanism" anyway? It sounds like a euphemism for watered-down, post-modern, liberal Christianity.
Never_Submit
"I am refering to the fundamentalist Mormons who practive illegal poligamy and live in remote areas of the western US. Everone knows what goes on in those communities but nothing is done about them. Girls as young as 14 are married off. It's disgusting. If this is so repugnant to the "Mainstream LDS Church" why is so little done about it in Utah, Arizona, and Idaho.
Firstly Please refer to it as the fundamentalist Mormons, to simply call them mormons is misleading as it associates their actions with a religion that publicly and privately disavows the practice, as I said, the church offers no support, aid, or comfort to those who practice it, they have no affiliation with the church and are just as barred from the temples as any nonmember. As for why so little is done, usually the fundies set up their own private communities where outsiders can do very little, the FBI knows about it, ask them why they do so little, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints can only denounce the practice and excommunicate them, we don't declare Fatwas calling for Warren Jeff's head, but when the local law enforcement is made up of followers, they will of course do little to their leaders. The church's policy is to obey the law of the land (yes Mormon's in Nazi Germany were excommunicated for hiding Jews because they were violating the laws of the land, right or wrong, they were later readmitted, but the church believes in following the laws of their government (regardless of whether the government is fair to them, please note the forced migration to Mexico to be able to freely practice their religion while also supplying "the Mormon battalion" to fight the war with Mexico) see the 12th Article of Faith link
>>I have also read much of the original LDS doctrine. I know about the celestial marriage bilge and that exclusionary temple mumbo jumbo.
Good for you, education is the key to everything in this life. *shrugs* we believe in your right to choose your own religion, I was a practicing Mormon in Kuwait when I did my tour in the Army, very eye opening. Re exclusionary temple mumbo jumbo, as a non-member you can go in when they have an open house before dedicating a new temple if you're really curious, other than that, even the Temples of Solomon or Herod were off limits to non-jews, and most of the Jews had to go through the Mikvah to be admitted. I don't have a problem with a religion's holiest places being off limits to non-believers. I wouldn't expect to be able to walk into any part of sacred buddhist shrine, shinto temple, the lower vaults of the Vatican, etc etc. Despite how much I'd love a chance to see what knowledge they have secreted away in those places.
Many Mormon wives DO BELIEVE that they are only going as far as their husbands go.
It sounds like they need more education and to talk to their Bishops, Relief Society Presidents or Stake Presidents to get some more correct information.
I used to live in Mormon communities were I was considered persona non grata because I was a Gentile and politely turned away the nice clean-cut missionaries. So if you will, I have kinda a taste of what it's like to be a religious minority.
This is a problem the leadership of the Church has spoken about recently, I've lived a number of places, where there was a majority of like-minded co-religionists, where we were almost non-existant (again in the army stationed in Kuwait) and in between. Frankly I think the members are much closer to how they should be towards their neighbors in Pennsylvania where we are relatively few and don't have the opportunity to get as cliquish as people tend to get in larger groups. The church fuels a sense of community within it's members, not in itself a bad thing, except when it becomes exclusionary of non-members, a lot of people in Mormon majority areas forget that, or just never consider it.
When ANY fundamentalist religion or cult takes control of a community the minorities are pushed out. LDS folks just have it down to a subtle art.
It is of course your opinion, and you're entitled to it, I won't call for your head for speaking ill of anything. I can speak for myself and will say that in my extensive research, time of inactivity included, I've studied most christian religions, history of them, and judaism, etc and the one that seems the most correct to me is mainstream Mormonism.
Don't forget the OTHER Septemper 11th: The Mountain Meadows Massacre. Whether massacres like this were "policy" of the LDS church or not in the mid 1800's is something that is suspect and a possiblity.
It's easy to point it out, don't forget about the mob violence, being driven from every place they set up to try and live peaceably, and nonstop persecution which murdered their leader and sent them to Mexico, a place in the mountains so gawdawful that no one else would live there or bother trying to make the desert bloom, so that they could practice their religion in peace. "The Fancher party may have been joined by a group of eleven miners and plainsmen who called themselves "Missouri Wildcats". There is debate on whether the Missouri Wildcats stayed with the slow-moving Fancher party after leaving Salt Lake City,[25] or even existed.[26] Though the conduct and/or existence of the Wildcats is now questioned, rumors about them at the time antagonized the local population. The most severe accusations about the Missouri Wildcats have included the poisoning of wells[27], bragging about taking part in Haun's Mill massacre and threats of returning to Utah with an army to wipe out the Mormon population.[28]. At least one account claimed the Wildcats bragged they had the gun that "shot the guts out of Old Joe Smith"[29]. Less than 10 years prior... Rumors of Grant sending the army to attack, and you think they were feeling a bit threatened? *shrugs* regretable, yes, a "proud moment" in history, no, it's not one we deny, nor do we rejoice in it as a victory against conquerers or oppressors.
I've also overheard mainstream Mormons say things like "I'm closer to Islam that I am Christianity." Scary indeed. I'll never trust Mitt Romney for as far as I can throw him.
That's once again a lack of education, having taken a look at most Christian denominations, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant, I can say we are closer to classical (1st century AD) Judaism than anything, EXCEPT for our reverence of Jesus, and the Bible. Most Mormons likewise feel a closer kinship to the jewish people than protestant Christianity. Knowing what I do about the plan of Salvation (Satan's plan vs Christ's, ask a missionary or google it), I can say that Islam is Satan's plan in action here on earth. I loathe it and oppose it at every turn, hence, why I'm here. as for Romney, religion aside, he's at least named jihad as a problem and suggested wiretapping mosques, 2 years ago before even suggesting a presidential run.
Actually, in Europe and elsewhere it's secular humanism and it's misguided progeny multiculturalism that are keeping the "kid gloves" on and choking out substantive discussion of Islam.
Christ was the first humanist, societies before he came along and said "be nice to each other" were almost uniformly brutal, savage, and bloodthirsty. Granted it's taken a long time for the spirit of his message to get through, but there would be no humanism, secular or otherwise, if Christ hadn't said be nice, turn the other cheek, and love each other.
mohammed cursing Christian
Morguerat, a mohammed cursing Christian
Morguerat, a mohammed cursing Christian
morguerat,
Nice cut and paste from Wikepedia.
Answer me this one then: If the Mormons were so persecuted becase if their "faith" alone,why were the Oneidas, Mennonites, Shakers, Amish, Amanas, and every other protestant sect tolerated and left alone during the mid 1800's?
If you read some history OTHER than what the LDS church publishes, you will find that there was this HUGE spiritual awakening in the developing US during this time. Americans were in fact extremely tolerant of other religions and cults. My point of this is that the Mormons of that time had an ideology and behaved in such a manner that the local populations found repugnant enough to drive out.
I used to swallow that bilge about how evil the crazy Gentiles were in Illinois until I started some further reading on the hisorty of the the US. I recommend you do the same. Perhaps the mainstream LDS community needs start questioning the doctrine of the LDS church instead of only reading what they are told to read.
I'd lay money down that some day an LDS president will have a "revelation" allowing poligamy like the "revelation" concerning Blacks entering the priesthood.
FYI, I did consider joining the LDS church once...then it became clear to me what the status of women were: Baby machines. The doctrine makes NO sense to me, and any Christian that converts to Mormonism has no understanding of Christian doctrine.
If we don't get a handle on poligamy within the "illegal" Fundamentalist Mormon populations, how do we expect to tackle the poligymous Muslims?
Polygamy reminds me of a chimp alpha male doing exactly what evolution programed the male to do. Pass on as many of his genes as physically possible. The females only task is to bear offspring and live long enough to rear the children into reproductive adults.
After that,the adult female is expendable.
Does anyone see a strong comparison between polygamy and evolution? Looks to me as though religious dogma is doing exactly what the mindless, blind watch maker process of evolution beckons...all with a fancy "do it for god" bow tied around it.
Funny how Muslim women are also, for the most part, at least in the majority of the Islamic world, expendable and at the whim of chimp..er-ah male honor.
I don't want to take this off topic but you said something interesting Morguerat...
Mormons in Nazi Germany were excommunicated for hiding Jews because they were violating the laws of the land, right or wrong, they were later readmitted, but the church believes in following the laws of their government
So was it right or wrong? You seem unwilling to commit one way or the other. A sort of non-chalant "right or wrong" is the type of statement we might make about culpability in a minor traffic accident not when discussing the extermination of 10 million people or the excommunication of those trying to circumventing it...it seems this should be rather clear.
If we don't get a handle on poligamy within the "illegal" Fundamentalist Mormon populations, how do we expect to tackle the poligymous Muslims?
Aside from denouncing it form every pulpit and speaking ground generally and specifically, trying to correct those in the wrong, and reporting it to the proper authorities what would you have us do? Send in armed vigilantes to "reeducate them," start the spanish inquisition and put the to "the question" burn them at the stake as an example?
I think it's important to get the media just as focused on muslim polygamy, and with as much disgust, as they are on fundie Mormons.
So was it right or wrong? You seem unwilling to commit one way or the other. A sort of non-chalant "right or wrong" is the type of statement we might make about culpability in a minor traffic accident not when discussing the extermination of 10 million people or the excommunication of those trying to circumventing it...it seems this should be rather clear.
I would have gone with my conscience and been faced the religious consequences for it, for violating the laws of the land. Unlike muslims, we believe in being law abiding citizens of our respective nations. The church's position is to live under the civil laws that govern you.
The Muslims immigrated here knowing that America is a Judeo Christian culture and knowing we have culture standards and morals based upon our roots. If they do not like our laws and customs then maybe they should go back where they came from. A sect of Mormons have tried it and have faced the consequences of their actions. I still say when in Rome do as the Romans do!! This is why I am upset that the Bush administration wants to bring in 25,000 Muslim refugees from Iraq. If they stand against our constitution and prefer Sharia law then we do not want them to migrate here but if they honor our laws, morals and constitution then they are welcome here. If we keep bring them in and if they insist on Islamic law then I can see war and conflict in our future, just like overseas. I hope this is not the case though but we cannot allow them to replace our constitution with Islamic law, which is treason in my opinion.
And never_submit, thank you for never readdressing any of the point you brought up that I countered, does that mean I win teh internets today?
Beloit, Wisconsin?
Muslims always say Mohammad allowed polygamy to take care of the widows. They were widows that he created by the wars he started. He killed their husbands.
And there was a baby crawling on the floor and he said if she grew up he would marry her. He was attracted to a BABY. And he already had plenty of wives at that time but still said he wanted to marry her also. He died before she grew up so she was saved from him. That wasn't being kind to a war widow. Just to his own desires.
And to compare polygamy to an affair! That is what all the muslims say. How many men manage to have four affairs going on at once and children from all of the affairs? And women have the right to divorce or put a stop to affairs.
If polygamy is not bad yet, then it will start to get bad when American Muslim men decide to have non-Muslim women and girls as extra wives. First, the Muslims will want polygamy legalized. Then, they will want the practice of having child brides legal. If that happens, then al of the laws regarding the legal age for marriage will be eliminated.
Nooo....I would of never guess it..
That is alot! No wonder our morales going out the window of opportunity!