"While the implementation of their plan was incompetent, their aim was clear. They wanted to kill and maim on a massive scale."
"Failed 2005 bombers jailed for life," by Jill Lawless for the Associated Press:
LONDON - A judge on Wednesday sentenced four men he described as al-Qaida- inspired plotters to life in prison for trying to bomb London's transit system in July 2005, two weeks after suicide bombers killed 52 commuters.
Muktar Said Ibrahim, 29; Yassin Omar, 26; Ramzi Mohammed, 25; and Hussain Osman, 28, must spend at least 40 years in jail before becoming eligible for parole, said Judge Adrian Fulford. A jury on Monday found them guilty of conspiracy to murder in a plot to detonate explosives-filled knapsacks on three subway trains and a bus.
The bombs failed to explode, and no one was injured.
The judge said that that if the bombs had gone off, "at least 50 people would have died, hundreds of people would have been wounded, thousands would have had their lives permanently damaged, disfigured or otherwise, whether they were Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, agnostic or atheist."
He said that the July 7 and July 21 plots "were both part of an al-Qaida-inspired and controlled sequence of attacks."
Two other suspects, Manfo Kwaku Asiedu, 34, and Adel Yahya, 24, will be retried because the jury failed to reach a verdict.
[...]
All six defendants denied the charges, saying the devices were duds and their actions a protest against the Iraq war. But police and prosecutors said scientific tests proved the bombs were all viable. They do not know why they did not work.
"Exactly two weeks after the terrorist attacks on 7/7 these men targeted the same transport system and tried to cause the same level of death and destruction," said Sue Hemming, head of counterterrorism at the Crown Prosecution Service.
"While the implementation of their plan was incompetent, their aim was clear. They wanted to kill and maim on a massive scale," she said.
In both cases, the main ingredient in the bombs was the same — hydrogen peroxide, an easily available chemical commonly used in hair dying and coloring. The hydrogen peroxide was made into a volatile mix with flour and packed into tubs and surrounded by bolts and screws.
Unlike three of the four July 7 bombers, who were British-born, those in the July 21 plot had come to Britain as youths from countries in the Horn of Africa. Some had become British citizens, while others had refugee status.
"All six defendants denied the charges, saying the devices were duds and their actions a protest against the Iraq war. But police and prosecutors said scientific tests proved the bombs were all viable. They do not know why they did not work."
.....you can protest by carrying a sign....the only duds here are the duds that carried the duds....carrying workable bombs is not a protest it is a terror act...
goes to show...Islam is for losers...
Life sentences are too good for them.
I hope that after 40 years the UK will have eradicated Islam from their midst. Then those guys will be deported.
"AllahuAckbar!"......PPPhhhhhttttssstthhruuussssptttt!
Oh dear, Allah couldn't have been particularly impressed with this bunch of prats LOL!
I'm telling you it's true, the virgins in Allah's Garden of peace and fornication are on strike 'cause they're not happy with the current influx of martyrs. Too many bits missing and not conducive to proper lustful thoughts!
It should also be apparent that there's not a decent bang to be had with any of them. LOL
atheling in 40 years they will be eligible for parole, this does not mean they will be freed.
atheling in 40 years they will be eligible for parole, this does not mean they will be freed.
Following the men's arrests, police acknowledged they had video evidence of several of the suspects at a training camp in the northern English countryside taken a year before the attacks but had failed to identify them.
Ibrahim also had been arrested and charged over a disturbance while he was distributing extremist Islamic pamphlets, but was allowed to travel to Pakistan months before the failed attacks.
======================
Obviously, anyone handing out extremist Islamic pamphlets is a time bomb. I'd go further and say that anyone reading the Koran is a time bomb.
Not encouraging.
If there is/was enough rock solid evidence against them, the death penalty would have been a more appropriate punishment.
I don't think they have the death penalty in the UK...?
"Unlike three of the four July 7 bombers, who were British-born, those in the July 21 plot had come to Britain as youths from countries in the Horn of Africa. Some had become British citizens, while others had refugee status."
They were admitted as refugees or immigrants? Heck of a way to show your gratitude - killing those who welcomed you. Just goes to show that in the Islamic culture no good deed done by an unbeliever goes unpunished.
I'm telling you it's true, the virgins in Allah's Garden of peace and fornication are on strike 'cause they're not happy with the current influx of martyrs.
--posted by Jihadtobejoking
Joker Man,
I don't wish to be facetious nor didactic, but I must respectfully disagree.
The problem, my good man, is FGC. You know, female genital circumcision. You see they've cut the girls and now they show no enthusiasm for whoopy making.
We have a definite type of situation going on here in Paradise. I mean its getting to be a real problem. All these horny male muhammadans and no willing whores of Allah.
Sheeeesh!!!!
4 more practitioners of the "religion of peace" and "good muslims" - i.e. psychopaths - achieve the ultimate islamic goal: hell on earth
(and the bonus prize -each his very own private version of hell on earth)
BTW - 40 years does not equal life
in prison until death equals life
Ynkedoodl2;
Have you ever thought of distributing Islamic pamphlets? I have created one I toss around, hang on bulletin boards, etc. All in public places. Of course mine have a different flavor being generated from material I find on JW, religionofpeace and other like sites. I'm probably wasting my time. But, who knows the guys at the VFW found it interesting.
How lovely-these losers will now get to sponge off the British taxpayers, getting special meals, Internet, toilets that face in the right direction, etc.
Since deporting such scum doesn't work and the West is too squeamish to execute them the only (and best) solution is to exile them. Let's quit giving these bastards a better lifestyle at taxpayer expense.
@Ynkedoodl2
I would not disagree with your comment in the least but I would suggest to you that any poor virgin confronted with a martyr carrying his genitals in a bag, burnt and crusty, would in truth be rather off putting.
Will they be staying in cells with toilets that are oriented Islamically?
Will their Korans be handled by prison guards wearing white gloves?
Will they be given internet access?
Will their correspondence be monitored?
Will their in-house imams be screened?
We treat these Islamic terrorists better than we treated the IRA in prison!
Abrog8
Absolutely a great idea.
I have made anti-Jihad bookmarks and anti-Jihad printouts and distributed them widely.
My current focus is networking with Christian Churches and starting "interfaith" reading groups.
The class text which is: "CSPIMohammed, Allah, and the Christians: The Foundational Doctrine" published by CSPI (Center for the Study of Political Islam).
http://www.cspipublishing.com/Mohammed_Allah_And_The_Christians.htm
Now that my reading groups are getting educated about the difference between Christianity and Islam, they are prepared to invite the local Moslems over to our Church for a "Get To Know Jesus" get-together.
Next up an interfaith screening of this film:
Secrets of the Dead"Shroud of Christ?"
This episode reveals the new forensic evidence that indicates Christianity's most treasured existing relic, the Shroud of Turin, is indeed old, dating from the time of Christ.
Attendees are encouraged to go to the companion Web site and virtually examine the Shroud of Turin, its stitching and the clues scientists have found in its fibers.
http://www.pbs.org/secrets
DAWA goes both ways!!!!!!
@Ynkedoodl2
There is of course an alternative solution to the strike, they could put all their bits in the same bag and let nature take it's course.
But it's a lot of trouble to go through all that jihad nonsense just to get a slag in a bag
@Jihadtobejoking
It's getting nutty in paradise.The girls are on strike and the mad muhammadans are "taking it out on" the "boy-servants."
====================
10) And there will go round boy-servants of theirs, to serve them as if they were preserved pearls.
( سورة الطور , At-tur, Chapter #52, Verse #24)
I see one problem with this sentence - it won't be too long before the kidnappings start and the demands to have their 'innocents' released from jail.
And then we wait and see how long it will be before the English cave. Even the Israelis cave in while they hope, once again, that the daily bombing from muslims will stop if they comply.
Let's hope some of the other prisoners deal out some jailhouse justice. It seems a waste of the taxpayer's money to keep these devils alive at public expense.
.....you can protest by carrying a sign....
[...]
Posted by: exsgtbrown
Yes, you and I can.. we know the signs they carry when they do protest in that manner.. KILL, MAIM, BEHEAD and so on..
..and from words on to deeds.
Mass expulsions are in order!
atheling:
Life sentences are too good for them.
Agreed. But "Life" does not mean life.
I wish Blair had neve signed the UK up for the European Humans Right Act, no exemptions and I wish judges could give unlimited sentences.
200 years each, no parole at all, in something like Robben Island, Alcatraz or the supermax prison at Marion, Illinois would be what is wanted. And zero chance to practice Islam while inside.
I hope that after 40 years the UK will have eradicated Islam from their midst. Then those guys will be deported.
Fat chance of the former. But on the latter - yeah. I want them deported within 30 minutes of release. And if their country is going through a civil war or is a major hellhole or they stand a chance of being tortured - tough, deport anyway.
In Support of Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch:
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/07/11/duped-and-living-in-jihad-denial/
good article, sheik.
Khudayr Taher: Europe and America Should Deport All Muslims - Including Myself
Khudayr Taher, an Iraqi Shi'ite writer living in the U.S. and a regular contributor to the liberal Elaph website, had a quite illiberal suggestion - he asked why Europe and America shouldn't deport their Muslim populations. He wrote:
"Countries have the right to defend themselves and assure their citizens' safety from terrorism. Likewise, it is clear that the source of the terrorist crimes in Europe and America is the Muslims who live in these countries.
"The security services cannot know people's intentions and sort out who is the noble immigrant and who is a terrorist criminal. [But] wherever there are Muslims, their presence has produced crimes of terrorism and murder.
"Among those Muslims in Europe and America who do not practice terrorism, most of them do not have loyalty and sincere attachment to these countries that have offered them all of the means of life in dignity - housing, studies, work, and citizenship…
"The legitimate question is this: Since the security services cannot sort out the good immigrant from the bad terrorist… why don't these countries deport all Muslims, of all races, from Europe and America, and [thus] find rest from the danger of terrorism, and protect their peoples?
"I, as an Arab Muslim immigrant, sincerely call on the countries of Europe and America to deport all Muslims from their territories - including myself, despite my love and my sincere attachment to the U.S
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=29103
Now even a Muslim is calling for the deportation of all Muslims from the West.
I believe his sincerity.
There is also another advantage to this. Only a shock of this magnitude, the global setback to the Jihad and its lockup, as well as, having to cope with an expanding population, will make Muslims realise that Islam is not the way. Nothing else will do.
UK Infidel Lover
In thirty years time Britain could be an islamic state. Far from him being deported, it will be us that will be looking at finding a safe place.
Here is a link to what Gordo Brown, the un-elected PM, is doing
http://uppompeii1.uppompeii.com/2007/07/11/be-afraid-very-afraid-keystone-cops-in-charge.aspx#AddComment
DP111, maybe he should set the example and just leave. I know, I know, the others would be dumbfounded and not get the hint. Jihad is in their muslim, little brain's cell and that is all that the poor, lonely, little guy can handle.
That is the first, and so far only, muslim I believe might be a moderate.
Anybody know where these chaps are being held? I want to send them a copy of the Nick Cave / Grinderman song No Pussy Blues. "I've got the no pussy blues..."
It is a good sentence.
Just been watching BBC News 24.
And it is "again and again" replaying every angle on the 4 failed bombers.
Whatever way you look at it, it is a bad day for Islam. non-Muslims everywhere are having the media drum into their consciousness about people who took advantage of Britains generosity and then turned against the country. And no doubt peoples perception of Islam is altered.
Hey Naseem, any doubts about your recommendation of Islam for the West? Doesn't it occur to you if Islam routinely produces sick individuals then maybe there is something wrong with Islam? Plenty of thinking Muslims know there is something wrong with Islam even if they have not figured out what.
And Naseem, why is it that in a independent table of Failed States, OIC countries are closer than Western countries to the point of failure?
And Naseem, why is it that in a independent table of Corruption by Transparent International, OIC countries are more corrupt than Western countries? The factor couldnt be Islam could it?
Naseem, do you ever think?
Naseem, do you ever think about what you are recommending? Or do you close your eyes, put on your pink spectacles and get a rosy picture of Islam?
A Life sentence in the UK lasts about 10-15 years. Besides these people will have their own kitchen, chefs etc to provide them with halal food (much better then standard chow), special toilets etc. They will have a mosque, and all other facilities to make a Muslim not feel vulnerable. They will have free broadband, free laptop, mobile phone, etc. They will also be able to go on shopping trips, family unification trips, and I dont know what else. All at the expense of the taxpayer.
There will be no deportation.
This present generation of the establishment - political, judiciary, police, armed forces, brought up in the sixties, has collectively lost its mind.
R_not
I think he should stay and continue to beat out the message.
I believe he wants the West to take this option, as it is the one way that Muslims will wake up, and do something that will rescue them from the morally decrepit and self destructive path they are on. It is in someways a rescue package for Muslims as human beings - but not Islam.
R_not
I think he should stay and continue to beat out the message.
I believe he wants the West to take this option, as it is the one way that Muslims will wake up, and do something that will rescue them from the morally decrepit and self destructive path they are on. It is in someways a rescue package for Muslims as human beings - but not Islam.
Unfortunately, we have all become prisoners of Political Correctness.
Your government does not care about your security or well being. They care about getting re-elected which means getting donations from big business. Your country and your politicians are for sale.
The media's reporting is so biased that it no longer has any credibility whatsoever.
I fear that Civil War will actually erupt in places like Britain and the US. Violent crime will be so common, that emergency response team will be over-whelmed. The police will not be able to protect you.
So, get some guns, some ammo and some dogs. Eventually, you will be forced to seek justice on your own terms.
But hey, keep on "celebrating diversity". It will give you something to do while your nation bleeds to death.
Is there even one example where muslim immigration has had a POSITIVE effect on the host country?
Looks like Germany is talking about what they should do about terrorist threats:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/world/europe/11cnd-security.html?ex=1341806400&en=63574ada108b2d9d&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
"The staff of these centres are checked out but the applicants are NOT, repeat NOT subject to any kind of security scrutiny," --from above.
This is reminiscent of the Visa Expressprgram that the US instituted in Saudi Arabia, wherein visa applicants for entry into the US weren't inconvenienced with appearing for an interview prior to getting their visa. Three of the "Magnificent Nineteen" of 9/11 infamy obtained their visas in this manner.
The enactment of such programs is not based upon "ignorance" or "naivete." It is a matter of policy. The question is: Who's policy is it?
"I fear that Civil War will actually erupt in places like Britain and the US."
How will the British do it? Their citizens are not armed.
DP111:
UK Infidel Lover
In thirty years time Britain could be an islamic state. Far from him being deported, it will be us that will be looking at finding a safe place.
Yes I know. It is depressing. It is this unholy liberalism that does not recognise that it is not indestructible - it is vulnerable to barbarism. All this navel gazing - wondering if we are losing our civil liberties. All this granting of rights to people who mean us great harm who would never give us any rights in their countries.
It motivates me to get political.
But cheer up. It is not a forgone conclusion.
All Western countries are "wising up", be it ever so slowly, as to the threat of Islam.
Cameron for the first time ever quoted Hizb ut Tahrir - had urged supporters to "kill Jews" - he wanted to know why they were not banned in Britain. And the Tories want Border police which I will cheerfully pay taxes for.
We are not beaten yet.
I would like to know just how long this trial took, how much did it cost the taxpayer and how much did the defence lawyer's make in fees?
Lets face it none of the 4 were Einstein's and I don't think they had the brains to think up the “It was only a protest the bombs were never meant to go off” story themselves. How the hell anyone could give it one minutes' consideration let alone take it seriously is beyond me. The incredible thing is in the case of one man they damn near got away with it but it had to have been dreamed up by their lawyer's so I have to ask who were these defenders of truth and justice?
UK Infidel Lover:
They shouldn't worry about their "civil liberties". Have they a clue how draconian the British government was during WWII? It was a crime to feed birds food that humans can eat because they were rationing. It was a matter of survival and the British should not fear taking those temporary steps.
"Jailed for Life"
That's all well and good but will they be quarantined too?
They carry a VIRUS, a contagious virus, a virus they want to spread. If they succeed in infecting just one other person previously unaffected with the virus then "jailed for life" is a losing proposition.
If a bubonic plague is spreading fast among the population it needs to be contained and killed.
"I see one problem with this sentence - it won't be too long before the kidnappings start and the demands to have their 'innocents' released from jail."
We havn't caved yet, so I see no evidence that we will in the future.
"All six defendants denied the charges, saying the devices were duds and their actions a protest against the Iraq war. But police and prosecutors said scientific tests proved the bombs were all viable. They do not know why they did not work."
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: FOR THE LORD GOD OMNIPOTENT REIGNETH." (Revelation 19:5-7)
That's why.
"How will the British do it? Their citizens are not armed."
Well, perhaps it starts with car bombs or IED's. Then descends to street battles with baseball bats, knives and hammers.
Plus, the average law abiding British Citizen may not be armed, but you can bet the muslims have some weapons stacked in the basements of their mosques. What "religion of peace" would be complete without a cache of guns and ammo.
Likewise, I would bet some British groups have some weapons caches as well.
Can anyone offer an instance where a host country has been positively influenced by muslim immigration?
Posted by: KillHankKill : Is there even one example where muslim immigration has had a POSITIVE effect on the host country?
Thinking....thinking....thinking...got it
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Somalia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Algeria...
-----------------------------------
UK Infidel Lover
I'm sure we will beat this "thing" known as Islam, and hopefully destroy it in the process, liberating 1.2bn souls in its thrall.
What "religion of peace" would be complete without a cache of guns and ammo.
And Hank, dont forget, as we know now, all mosques come complete with underground bunkers and shelters. Maybe they even have machineguns in concrete pill boxes in the bunkers.
I'm now going to suggest to my vicar, that we have a collection for an underground bunker in the church.
PS : The UK (Blair), has promised to provide $2bn for madrassas in Pakistan. I wonder how much of that will be for weapons and training.
In prison to proselytize, pray, be praised and adored by their extremist fellows both on the inside and on the outside.
Basking in glory, eating halal meals and of course making demands demands demands.
I wonder, in times like these, if most Britons don't wish that they had a death penality in their country? The same question goes for citizens in other European countries.
Any Britons like to comment?
Depending on how they are treated in prison, I would support life without parole. Remember whats his name? The 20th highjacker. He got tossed in a supermax. I bet he wishes he got death. They thrive on martyrdom. Why give them an easy out and a legacy.
How about life with hard labor? Those Muslim men are so used to being waited on hand and foot. Lazy bums.
I wonder, in times like these, if most Britons don't wish that they had a death penality in their country?
Definitely. The big crimes would get it
- murder, arson, rape, treason, paedophilia, drug dealing
I would have various tiers so that only murder, arson, rape where the evidence is more solid than just forensic evidence and more than 1 witness and pre-meditated would be clasified as 1st degree and warrant the dealth penalty (so that the nay-sayers would not be say there was a mistake). I would also like to go Victorian here and bring back hanging as public entertainment.
The other good thing about the Death Penalty is it cuts costs down. Caligula did this back in Roman days - he executed 50 of his most hardened criminals in jail and fed their bodies to his pigs. I believe the crime rate went down.
Furthermore, a case could be made for the Death Penalty to apply for Speeding, Adultery, Gambling, Drunkenness. It would sure have a sobering effect on society.
A must read from the Frontpage
Britain Under Siege
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=29108
Post it as widely as possible, please. It all helps.
People - Go to "10 Downing Street" and sign the Petition started by Jill Barham against building the "mega-mosque" in London. Over 170,000 signatures. Do it now.
They ought to dump pig's blood on the building site too.
UK Infidel Lover:
Whoa! That's pretty harsh stuff for drunkenness, etc...
"If little faults, proceeding on distemper,
Shall not be wink'd at, how shall we stretch our eye
When capital crimes, chew'd, swallow'd and digested,
Appear before us?" - Henry V
they should be publically hung....
with a statement that all other terrorists will be hung when apprehended.....
And to prevent them from achieving a "glorious martyrdom" they should be defiled before execution... like rub lard on the rope before hanging...
What happened to the Merrye Olde England that used to draw and quarter blokes like this?
Assalamau Laikum Western Infedel,
You ask "Hey Naseem, any doubts about your recommendation of Islam for the West"?
No, none...the koran is divine...most of the surae are the literal words of Allah T'Allah SWT, how honoured we are for this position.
Muhd SAW said he had left the perfect legacy of religion & law to Calipaha Umar (through sharia).
Now I understand that things have changed somewhat since Calipha Umar and sharia is not right for the West yet.
But in 30 years time, it's very possible that a muslims majority will want sharia.
So my thoughts are "why not discuss sharia lite", now, what harm can it do to talk about it?
In the process of talking about it over years we can water it down...the kaffur/wuslims will be instrumental in insisting for this water down.
With the right mix of peoples and muslim scholars in the UK we can get to sharia lite.
Having it in Pak is an excellent 1st step where trial & error will get the mix right ...and then it can be fine tuned ....and here's the big advantage....with consultation with kaffur...and that means peace.
In effect sharia lite will be a a law for wuslims and kaffur ...that is why it will be the global glue of law.
Get on board...your childres will be affected won't they?
Naseem. Go fuck yourself.
Naseem you are such a wishful thinker. Myself and many others will fight in a militia movement to ensure that won't happen...
To dp111: "I'm now going to suggest to my vicar, that we have a collection for an underground bunker in the church." Now, I know you're joking. (Though a lot of really old churches DO have an underground bunker - it's called the Crypt).
However: remember that the reason old churchyards in England are planted with yew trees is because the longbow - the weapon that won the battle of Agincourt - was made of yew. A well-trained citizen with a longbow could bring down a mounted knight. Great equaliser, eh?
Now, some practical advice for ANY churchgoing Briton (Welshman, Scotsman, Englishman, who may read this post). If you are a churchgoer and your church has a bell or - better still - an old-fashioned ring of bells, just remember that at the end of that bell-rope you have 1. a simple low-tech community warning system and 2. a great way to get 'in the face' of Islam.
Re. Warning system. Make sure your bell-ringers know all about the Jihad and how it threatens Britain even from within. If you have bells but no ringers, form a squad. Devise an 'alarm' ringing code and make sure all parishioners and their friends and neighbours within earshot know it. If there is a terror attack of any kind anywhere in Britain, whether it succeeds or not, ring the alarm. (What you do after that is up to the parish - sort out a range of responses in parish council - e.g. after a 'failed' attack like the one in Glasgow, the parish could send a delegation to the local sitting MP to bend his/ her ear about Islam and the jihad, and a short, sharp, coolly polite letter to the nearest mosque asking awkward questions, the kind that require yes/ no answers).
Re. the 'in your face' function. Especially if there's a mosque within earshot, make sure you ring your bells LOUD AND LONG on every appropriate occasion - the call to worship, weddings, funerals, etc. Within the Muslim world, dhimmi Christians were not permitted to ring bells. The joyful jangle of church bells from every corner of the Isles is a wonderful way to drive home the point - NO DHIMMIS HERE! NO SHARIA HERE!
"I fear that Civil War will actually erupt in places like Britain and the US."
How will the British do it? Their citizens are not armed.
The answer to that question is to form an armed militia or resistance movement
One of the sentenced men clutched a Koran to his chest as he was led from the dock. What a shame that the newsreader didn't add that the very book he was seeking comfort from, in his wretchedness, was the very thing that had got him into that stupid, miserable state in the first place.
Too bad the Brits got rid of what used to be called a long drop and a short tow.
"No, none...the koran is divine...most of the surae are the literal words of Allah T'Allah SWT, how honoured we are for this position."
Naseem,
You have to be joking! There can't be any literal words of Allah, because Allah is pure fiction -- nothhing but the invention of the screwball Mohammad and the unclean spirit he was in league with.
Hey Naseem!
All finished with mourning now? Back to business as usual? Fixed your hair and mended your clothes?
See any potbellied imams waddling around in girl's clothes???
As long as people in the U.K. join a sporting club (ostensibly for shooting at clay pigeons) or if they live in the country and need a gun to control vermin) shotguns and cartridge rifles are allowed in Britain.
Only handguns have been outlawed almost completely.
I'd rather have a shotgun, anyway.
The sons and daughters of Shakespeare aren't as disarmed as some here appear to think.
(Clay pigeons with a Mo-toon logo might be handy.)
Well then Britons should join those clubs and arm themselves. Don't depend on your government to protect or save you.
Dear Mr dumbledoresarmy,
"...an old-fashioned ring of bells...". There is nothing old-fashioned about a ring of bells. They are still all in use today and used exactly as you suggest in your final paragraph. See http://www.cccbr.org.uk/ By the way, Church bells do not jangle, see Troyte - 'On Change Ringing' or simply Google the subject. The music of the bells is a peculiarly English tradition, but it is music no matter what it might sound like to you. Bells are rung in a mathematical sequence that the educated mind and the trained ear can detect. They are used to convey information to the listener - read Dorothy L Sayer's 'The Nine Tailors' and be a little bit enlightened and entertained.
Dear Naseem,
Ignore poetcomic1. Crude invective is the last resort of the intellectually challenged, but failed, mind. It/he can safely be ignored. I understand that you wish to reason from a position of faith because, for you, faith is reasonable. What you fail to understand, Naseem, is that faith is not a reasonable position to adopt when talking about the affairs of men and women.
The Koran is not the Word of God no matter how much you might want to believe that it is. The Koran can, at the very best (and just like all other Sacred Scriptures), be nothing more than the Word filtered through the fallible minds of human beings. It is inevitably tainted by the psychological and emotional baggage that all humans carry with them. Mohammed - if he was a perfect human then he must have carried with him the same emotional, cultural, reasoning and psychological baggage and lumber that we all do for we are all made in the image of God. His perfection, by logical extension, can be no greater than our own, for all sense indicates that the perfect human being has to be as we are - if the perfect human being is not as we are but more perfect than we, then he or she approaches or becomes Godhead given that our faiths proclaim that we are made in the image of God. The 'perfect man' must be exactly as we are for God made us in his image - we cannot be more perfect than the way God created us and God created us and Mohammed. Mohammed was fully human and we are fully human. Therefore, if Mohammed is perfect then we are perfect.
It is inevitable and it follows logically that the Word filtered through our minds, or the mind of Mohammed, will be equally valid no matter who pronounces it. That the Word differs depending upon who utters it is the Glory of the Creation of God and the ultimate God-given testament to our free will as human beings - all the Words of God, no matter which mind attempts to filter them and no matter who attempts to reveal them, are equally valid.
QED, your faith in a single revelation embodied in the Koran is illogical in God's own terms. Simply stated - if Mohammed is a man and made in the image of God and perfect then all other men, who are also made in the image of God, are perfect also. Their interpretation of God's words are, therefore, equally as valid as Mohammed's. Mohammed is perfect, obviously, only in as much as all of us are perfect.
It follows, logically, that Mohammed, and what he is purported to have said as recorded in the Koran and other documents, cannot therefore be the final arbiter on how any person should, or should not, behave. His viewpoint can only be one perfect human viewpoint amongst many perfect human viewpoints. If you ascribe to his words any greater a value than that then you have moved into a position of superstition - a position that he himself would have denigrated.
Consequent upon this reasoning it follows that you, and you alone, must live your life upon your own terms and applauding the rise of superstition as embodied in the religion you purport to support, or denigrating the rise of the objective view of your prophet in the religion which you choose to support, both - or one or the other - is in direct contravention of the perfection of God's creation.
The same, of course, applies to all religions which claim a divine prescript - not just yours - but it does mean that you, and other Mohammedan followers, have no greater claim to know the mind of God than any of us. All of us human beings are made in the image of God and, therefore, are perfect in His eyes and thoughts so if we differ in opinion or action then so does God allow. The points upon which we differ are God given. Neither one of us is necessarily correct - God may have a much deeper and unrevealed purpose, so for you to claim that Islam is final and immutable by vertu of the revelations of just one of us perfect men amongst all of we perfect men is, by our God-given logic and God-awarded perfect ability to think and to reason, nothing more than hubris - and a hubris which, as we all know, can be punished by God.
Islam may not be totally wrong, but it cannot, by God-given logic, be perfectly correct, either. Had God not wanted us to think then he would not have given us the ability to do so. I have thought, that is a process given to me by God, and I disagree with you. My conclusion must also be of God - as your different conclusion must also be. Therein lies free-will. If you dominate and eliminate us, and our beliefs, then you are denying God's handiwork - truly you will then be Satan's spawn. If you attempt to do so, as many of you have over the last fifty years, then we may, in all conscience, pronounce the Great Curse upon you and eliminate you - but in so doing, of course, we may also be running counter to God's will.
That's the dichotomy, isn't it?
There is no certainty - just huge bits of certain uncertainty. That, surely, is what all His multiple revelations, filtered through so many fallible human minds, is trying to tell us, isn't it? Does anyone actually think that the Voice of God is easily heard?
Naseem, dear one, do actually think that it is all so easy? Do you really believe all the guff that you write? Do you really think that God is as simple as you say - or we say? God is not so simple!
Dear The Resistance,
"How will the British do it? Their citizens are not armed."
Well, if you believe that then you will believe anything. You've obviously bought, hook line and sinker, into a survivalist's mental picture of the UK - and a stupid one at that.
Sharia lite...Naseem did you know that Algore(swt)invented that. He saw that Sharia was too heavy, hardly anyone could carry it around with them. So seeing the need, Algore(swt)created Sharia lite.
Now Shari is so lite that you can easilly carry lots of it in your pocket or purse. You should never leave your mud hut without a good supply of it...
Mr. Ralbrooke:
TheResistance did not say that. I did. I am not a British subject and I was informed by some British people that they are not allowed to own guns, which puzzled me because I thought they were allowed to hunt.
Anyway, I don't consider it "stupid". I was simply misinformed, and I don't think you can blame a non Briton for that.
Dear atheling,
My apologies to you if I have offended you.
I am a British Citizen, and proud of it, and I can assure you that there are very many situations in which we are allowed to carry and use fire-arms. The laws are complex and difficult but they are by no means impossible to conform to and many of us do exercise our right, enshrined in our constitutional law, as in your's, to bear arms.
Atheling,
By the way, we don't have the death penalty in the UK - nor anywhere else in the EU - not because we don't believe in that penalty but because we believe that the systems that can find a man guilty of a crime that earns such a penalty are man-made and not perfect. Too often, in recent years, we have discovered that convictions which would ordinarily have carried the penalty of death have been unsafe convictions. We prefer not to execute the innocent along with the guilty for in so doing we believe that we are collectively committing murder.
You may, of course, disagree.
To Jonathan Ralbrooke -
Actually I am not a Mr but a Mrs.
I'm sorry if my choice of wording offended you - obviously my 'tone' was wrong. I used the words 'old-fashioned' and 'jangle' not pejoratively but affectionately (did you see the qualifying adjective, 'joyful'). Since I live on the far side of the world, I'm not very 'up to date' on how many parish churches in Britain are still, so to speak, fully provided, though I knew from postings here by our late beloved Dominic (God bless him) that some were. Believe me, I am very glad to hear that they are being used to the full to defy the Mohammedans. God bless all Bellringers!
I know D L Sayers's The Nine Tailors very well - it is one of my favourite books, ever, and I wish someone decent would make it into a movie. One of my ancestors, name of Carseldine, came from a village in East Anglia in 1854.
D L Sayers is one of my favourite authors. I would LOVE it if a modern theatre company were to revive her magnificent radio play based on the gospels - The Man Born to Be King. Even more so if they were to translate it into, say, Urdu, Arabic, Farsi and Malay and circulate recordings internationally! (Subvert the Mohammedans).
Unfortunately, I have never had the privilege of hearing bells change-rung in real life. My own parish church has just one bell, sad to say. I am going to ask our parish priest if, on the 'Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church', we may toll the bell in memory of all the modern martyrs, especially those killed by the Mohammedans.
PS - Do you know G K Chesterton's splendid poem, 'For Five Guilds'? The fourth part, for The Bell-Ringers, concludes: "neither preacher nor priest are we [the ringers]/ each man mount to his own degree/ only remember that just such a cord/ tosses in heaven the trumpet and sword/ Souls on their terraces, saints on their towers/ rise up in arms at alarums like ours/ Glow like great watchfires that redden the skies/ Titans whose wings are a glory of eyes/ crowned constellations by twelves and by sevens/ domed dominations more old than the heavens/ virtues that thunder and thrones that endure/ sway like a bell to the prayers of the poor". (I would quote more of it, but I don't want to make this posting TOO long).
God and all his holy angels bless and protect England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland! Confusion to all jihadists!
'But in 30 years time, it's very possible that a muslims majority will want sharia.'
Posted by: Naseem
....it 30 years time, it is very possible that there will be significantly fewer Muslims....
Jonathan Ralbrooke:
I can assure you that there are very many situations in which we are allowed to carry and use fire-arms. The laws are complex and difficult but they are by no means impossible to conform to and many of us do exercise our right, enshrined in our constitutional law, as in your's, to bear arms
The above is news to me and I live in the UK. I can only think of the following situations where a civilian can use a firearm: for hunting, clay-pigeon shooting or official sporting use (e.g. training for or participating in shooting events).
As we do not have a written constitution I don't see how a right to bear arms can be part of it.
I believe we do still have the death penalty for treason and piracy, but in practice the sentence is always commuted to imprisonment.
You can use "reasonable force" to eject someone from your property, but - as the Tony Martin case illustrated ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/717511.stm ) - you cannot shoot unarmed intruders even if - as in the aforementioned case - the intruders are low-life scumbag wastes of space who should have been put down at birth.
However, I (and many others) believe that when you enter someone else's private property without the consent of the owner, you leave ALL your rights outside. If you get shot - tough. Is this the rule in the USA?
The Resistance:
Naseem you are such a wishful thinker
No! Naseem does not think. She is brainwashed, as can clearly be seen from her mindless words. She only believes what she believes because someone else has told her to believe it. That is the definition of religion.
Muslims are incapable of independent thought or reason. They are drones, mindlessly living according to ancient malicious texts which have no place in the modern world.
Indeed, there is no place for Muslims in the modern world. They should take themselves and their book of death back to the desert wastelands where they belong.
To Ynkeedoodle2 - good luck with 1. educating Christians and 2. counter-da'wa. Sounds like you're really getting going.
I am sure Isabellathecrusader will second me when I say I will pray for you.
Please, nonreligious members of this community, bear with me: the rest of this post is one Christian plotting with another, and not relevant to you (YOUR job is to get your atheist friends reading Ms Ali, or Spencer's Truth About Mohammed).
Anyway, ynkee, here's my two cents.
The 'shroud of Turin' thing feels to me like a bit of a sidetrack.
Better to hit them [any Muslim inquirers/ guests] with the gospel right away. There's a thing called 'The Jesus Film' - not the most brilliant movie ever made, but you can get it with the dialogue dubbed in most of the mother-tongues of the Muslim world, and the thing is, the script = the gospel of Luke.
For your church groups - the Australian scholar Dr Mark Durie has a useful little book called 'Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God? Jesus, Holy Spirit, God in Christianity and Islam'. It is nice and short, but sets all the differences out very clearly. A good way to get one's head straight. Appendix B of Durie's book has a handy selection of simple but to-the-point 'conversation starters' for Christians who are starting out to deprogram Muslims. By the way: the formidable Bat Ye'or gave Durie's book a favourable review.
Another Aussie, Stuart Robinson, has something in a more 'popular' style, called 'Mosques and Miracles'. It doesn't mince words about the trail of misery that has followed the Mohammedans through human history, nor about the current world jihad project. Robinson associates with the two Aussie pastors (Daniel Scot and co.) who got into trouble recently for hurting the feelings of Muslims by telling the truth about Islam. Robinson, like Durie, has read Bat Ye'or and there's a long chapter on dhimmitude, called 'Optimised Oppression'.
Robinson has two main pieces of advice. One: if a Muslim can be persuaded to read the Bible, the Word really does have power to wake them up. And, two: PRAY.
Before, during and after anything you try to do with regard to the Muslims in your neighbourhood: pray. You are going into tiger country, spiritually speaking, and you need backup.
God bless!
dumbledoresarmy:
I'm afraid I ignored your advice (Please, nonreligious members of this community, bear with me: the rest of this post is one Christian plotting with another, and not relevant to you). Sorry about that.
You mention about praying. Please enlighten me as to what this achieves? I'm sure I read somewhere that the mythical entity you call God gave men free will. Therefore there is no point praying for anything which would require God to violate someone's free will. Logically therefore God cannot influence anyone's thoughts.
Can God influence the physical world at all? If he is powerless to do so then is he not God. If he can but chooses not to then is he really benevolent? For example, he must have known (he is God, after all) that Mohammed Atta and friends were going to fly those planes into the World Trade Center. Why did God not stop it? Doesn't he care about people?
In what way can praying help anybody?
I wouldn't bother trying to reason with Muslims. They're mostly brainwashed.
watling:
There is no way we can explain prayer to you. Faith is said to move mountains, and if you have none, then this is a waste of time.
Nevertheless, we have a right to pray and to urge prayer to those who are inclined to do so.
dumbledoresarmy:
Let's not start this here on this thread. It'll go nowhere.
Actually, dumbledoresarmy, I realize you meant your post for believers, please excuse me.
Mr. Ralbrooke and watling:
Why is it that Britons seem unable to come up with a straight answer about bearing arms there?
Puzzled.
@watling
A child in the sixth grade in a Sunday School in New York City, with the encouragement of her teacher, wrote to Einstein in Princeton on 19 January I936 asking him whether scientists pray, and if so what they pray for. Einstein replied as follows on 24 January 1936:
I have tried to respond to your question as simply as I could. Here is my answer.
Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the actions of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a supernatural Being.
However, it must be admitted that our actual knowledge of these laws is only imperfect and fragmentary, so that, actually, the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith. All the same this faith has been largely justified so far by the success of scientific research.
But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive.
It is worth mentioning that this letter was written a decade after the advent of Heisenberg's prin ciple of indeterminacy and the probabilistic interpretation of quantum mechanics with its denial of strict determinism.
atheling:
Faith is said to move mountains
Do you have any evidence of this? I'd put my money on high explosive every time.
We can conduct a debate based on metaphores, but does that actually achieve anything? If all the world's non-Muslims prayed simultaneously for deliverance from the Islamic threat, do you think it would make a scrap of difference?
Those of us who live in the real world seek real world solutions to real world problems. Head in the sand faith achieves nothing.
I'd be interested to know whether you think God knew about the 9/11 plot. If he did not then he is fallible and therefore cannot be God. If he did know about it then he obviously chose not to intervene, thereby condemning 3000 innocent people to death. Do you happily worship a God who allows such things to happen?
Why is it that Britons seem unable to come up with a straight answer about bearing arms there?
I repeat my answer from my earlier post:
As we do not have a written constitution I don't see how a right to bear arms can be part of it.
i.e. there is no right to bear arms. You cannot use a firearm to defend yourself in your own home against unarmed intruders and expect to escape prosecution. I strongly disagree with this.
My turn:
Why is it that those who believe in God seem unable to come up with a straight answer regarding why a benevolent God allows unspeakable horror to occur on the world he allegedly created?
Can I sneak in one more question? Why did God bother to create cockroaches, wasps and rats?
watling:
It's a fallen world. God gave man free will because He doesn't want to be loved by automatons. Possessing free will means that there must be choice. We choose either evil or good.
"Thus is the world. Thus have we made it."
BTW, about the cockroaches and rats ... I suppose that our immune system needs the workout.
My biggest question is why didn't God make deer in order to eat weeds instead of roses. But then who said He had to make a perfect world? What would be the point of a heaven if there was already one here?
However, if you contemplate the nature of "free will" rationally and with intellectual honesty, you will find an understanding.
@watling
Google "Einstein religion" and you'll learn about genuine religious feeling from a man who was smarter than you and I combined.
Now, as for wasps:
Wasps are very familiar insects which visit our gardens between the spring and autumn and are very useful to gardeners and farmers because they eat many types of insect pests.
Rearrange the following phrase:
Troll Naseem The Don't Feed
Speaking of trolls, what happened to Progressive Dementia?
Did the brain disease finally consume him?
Or maybe he's out there still looking for evidence to support his assertion that people dress up as priests and nuns to rob banks FREQUENTLY???
Ynkedoodl2,
I'm afraid Mr. Einstein's reply is based on his pre-existing irrational belief in a supreme being. Einstein said: "the belief in the existence of basic all-embracing laws in Nature also rests on a sort of faith".
I disagree. The only laws of Nature are those which we humans discover. To pre-suppose that the laws of Nature that we have so far discovered are in existence in all time and space and that there are no more "out there" to discover is naïve.
Scientists cannot therefore "believe" in anything. They must have scientific evidence before they conclude anything. Anyone who uses a "belief" to justify a rule is not a scientist. Can you imagine a forensic scientist in court saying: "well - I can't prove that the accused's DNA was on that knife but I have a belief that it was"? No - neither can I, and I'm afraid even Mr. Einstein wouldn't get away with it either.
It is hypocritical for a "scientist" to require a cause for every effect, yet at the same time not need a cause for God. If we assume that God has always been here and always will be, why can't we come to the same conclusion about the universe?
Why can't the universe always have been here - with no beginning and no end? Scientifically it makes no less sense to believe that than to believe in God.
My questions remain: did God know about the 9/11 plot?
If so (and it would be strange if a supreme being did not know) do you feel comfortable worshipping a God who let 9/11 happen?
Or indeed a God who creates malformed/moribund babies who live a short life of misery before suffering a premature death? Oh - of course - their "reward" is in "Heaven". How convenient. Wouldn't they have preferred a chance at life first?
If God created wasps to eat insect pests, why didn't he simply not create the pests, thereby avoiding the need for wasps to eat them?
Regarding Progressive (aka Regressive) he/she/it has some serious brainwashing sessions today so we can expect some mindless posts tomorrow.
watling:
You have not addressed my answer regarding free will. Why is that? Is it because it might throw a monkey wrench into your comfortable belief system?
Dear Mrs. dumbledoresarmy,
Yes I do know the Chesterton you quote. Lovely to read it again.
There are over twenty thousand bell-ringers manning and womaning the Towers and the bells still ring out triumphantly over England and over all of the UK as well, despite many attempts in the Courts by muslims to have them silenced. Start with http://www.cccbr.org.uk/ and follow any link that takes your fancy.
Dear watling,
The Government of the UK has made the laws pertaining to fire-arms so complicated that it is almost impossible for a British citizen to work out whether or not he/she has a right in any given situation to bear arms and to use them. The persistent amongst us challenge the laws and their interpretations on an almost daily basis in the Courts. So far, we are winning.
By the way, we do have a written constitution - learn your Parliamentary History - but it is not one codified document but many documents (mainly, but not exclusively, Acts of Parliament or Proclamations of the Monarch) that are collectively known as the Constitutional Acts. These are viewed - rightly so - as sacrosanct by Parliament and when modified or added to are generally the subject of wide and prolonged public debate. Interestingly, there have been only thirty-three changes to the British Constitution since AD1911 and twenty-nine of those occurred in the last seven years! The current Government of the UK has just proposed eleven more to be enacted within the next year!
So does the left gain permanent power - f**k it.
Dear Mrs. dumbledoresarmy,
I studied Archaeology and Etruscan Studies under Dr. A. Dominic J. Tabrar-Synge. He was my Honours year Tutor and one of the most charismatic people whom I have ever met. It was he who introduced me, and others, to this site and he, also, who cleared my mind of the inchoate fog of knee-jerk anti-Americanism that is all to prevalent in the West today.
Had you known him, had you had the privilege of meeting him, then I think that you would have been bowled over by the sheer force of his personality and the love that he exuded for everyone who came into contact with him. He possessed an incisive and rational mind of the highest order: his nickname is (sorry, was) Dr. Prove-it - for that was his clarion call whenever anyone made an assertion of any sort. We all must have one abiding memory of the man from our First Year - scruffy and untidy, long blond hair billowing out, striding through the Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology and pointing to exhibit after exhibit and loudly declaiming as he did so "Rubbish", "Wrong", "Untenable", "Not substantiated on the ground", "Fake" and "Guessing". He believed he could prove that a significant quantity of Captain James Cook's collection were sophisticated forgeries put together some years after the events recorded by the good Captain. I, personally, think that he was wrong but his importance to me, and to many other students, lies in the fact that he made us look critically at these so-called important collections. He taught us to think and to reason for ourselves. That is the mark of greatness. That we were robbed of his presence at an early age by a simple car accident still rankles for all of us.
Dear watling,
You said:
"My turn:
Why is it that those who believe in God seem unable to come up with a straight answer regarding why a benevolent God allows unspeakable horror to occur on the world he allegedly created?
Can I sneak in one more question? Why did God bother to create cockroaches, wasps and rats?"
God is, from our point of view, neither benevolent nor evil - He simply is. He has granted us absolute free-will - ABSOLUTE free-will.
Intercessionary prayer, as offered up by us, does not work on some magical, change-the-universe, level but on the level of change affected within the soul and spirit of the person praying and the event, or person, prayed about. Praying for physical change in the free world as created and manifest is a nonsense - intercession is about our souls, about how we believe and perceive - about making us, the people who pray and the people whom we pray for, right with God. We couldn't care less about this physical world. It has very little part to play in the long journey. It is merely a transient - but God given - part of our souls' experiences.
That does not mean that this world is unimportant - merely that its importance is, as any rationl man must know - relative. And that relativity of belief starts with acknowledging that this world, and all its joys and travails, are nowhere near as important - not even fractionally - as one might think.
Reality is dependent upon observation and experience and your "unspeakable horror" could be my "embracing of God through 'the Imitation of Christ'".
To be honest here, there is a huge gulf between us, you and I. We don't even speak the same language. Whilst I have had to subsume myself into your material world no-one has ever asked you to attempt to understand my spiritual reality. You lack the reasoning tools and the words, you lack the base references and the definitions. You drift, ignorant, upon the seas of our spiritual culture lacking even the most basic of compasses with which to orientate yourself on my world; and because you do not understand - and refuse to try to understand, for you believe that there is nothing to understand - we end up, you and I, using the same words but in two separate ways. We wonder why we do not understand one another when the reason is obvious. I am a Christian and you are not. That is the plain truth and that is why you cannot understand the Definitions of the Christ. Faith is - if you don't have it then you can't grasp it.
Perhaps God doesn't need you to have faith. You're calling may be otherwise. None the less, you will serve His will.
As to cockroaches, wasps and rats - wrong question! Think of creation from the point of view of any one of them - the question then becomes: "Why did God bother to create Human Beings?"
Dear watling,
You said:
"Scientists cannot therefore "believe" in anything. They must have scientific evidence before they conclude anything."
Absolute rubbish. Scientific evidence is relative - relative to the point from which the evidence is gathered. There is no absolute, 'observation determines all' point - we've known that for at least the last decade, if not two.
Everything, EVERYTHING, depends upon where you stand to look from. We also know that measurements are a function of time and that space (existence) is also a function of time and that viewing this universe in isolation is probably wrong because there may be others that affect it from moment to moment.
"The only absolute is a constantly shifting constant, shifting in constantly unpredictable ways."
God's infinity is turning out to be a d***ned sight larger than one might have been led to believe even a scant three years ago!
Previewing your Comment
And, my dear watling, time is not a constant, but an increasingly random and multiplying constant of itself. It not only affects the Universe but, in so doing, affects itself. It is the ultimate feedback loop for it is unpredictable given the uneven distribution of matter.
In our Universe it doesn't even run at a constant rate everywhere - actually it cannot. If it did we wouldn't exist. Differential temporal flow rates are a pre-requisite of a stable Universe. All dimensions must function differentially. It's only fifteen billion years (or thereabouts) since the Big Bang. Actually, it could be any number of years. The figure doesn't matter for time, as we observe it, is completely irrelevant. There is no sensible way of objectively measuring time. From our point of view the Creation of this Universe might have happened a scant ten seconds ago but it would still seem to us that it happened fifteen billion years ago. Time is not the constant, nor is it a constant. As I said earlier, time is a constant function of itself and mass both of which vary, constantly, in unconstant ways. There is no certainty.
There is, of course, a certain observable parameter that can, and should, govern human activity. It's WYSIWYG. Respond to what your ordinary senses tell you. If you do so then things will work - at least as far as you are concerned!
Of course Time has an energy value that can allow us to at least determine some things - even the age of the Universe (assuming that the other dimensions have a neglible energy value - which is by no means certain, given that at least three of them have a positive energy value and that we don't know, as yet, how the others might be affected by the inter-reaction of Time and the other, putative, Universes - never mind our own observable dimensions) - but I would hazard a guess that in any given Universe, the energy value of Time is equivalent to, at least very roughly, the energy value of mass in any given Universe times the value of Planck's constant times the speed of light squared. In other words the [Energy Value of Time: T]=mc squared h squared c squared. Neatly, this would avoid the need for dark matter and radiation. The sums would then add up. We could have, with this, a steady state Universe - of course we don't because the collapse at any point, to a singularity, or a pre-singularity big bang point is not about energy but about mass gravity and energy and the energy of time - and the latter must diminish as the Universe expands. The [Energy Value of Time:T] determines how long a Universe lives for and how beings within that Universe can, and would, determine its age. The problem with this Universe is that it is real - or at least as real as we perceive it to be, d**n it.
So there you have it. Simple, really.