Fitzgerald: A tribute to Robert D. Crane

Former Nixon aide Robert D. Crane is a convert to Islam, and his biography -- the one he himself composed -- shows other evidence of mental bizarrerie (to see it, google "Robert D. Crane" and "Posted by Hugh" and "Jihad Watch"). He has a vested interest in protecting Islam, and protecting as well his own emotional investment in Islam, as a convert. At this point, he is unlikely to say -- it would be impossible for him to say, given his mental makeup, to say or even to allow himself a glimmer of a hint of saying or thinking anything like this: “Yes, you're right, I ‘reverted’ to something I did not understand.”

Islam is quite different from what the naïve revert may think. Those who are born into Islam and have managed to defect or escape are intellectually and morally superior people. These include Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina and Azam Kamguian and Irfan Khawaja and a great many more. In those ranks I would also place those who, largely out of filial piety, continue to call themselves "cultural Muslims" or even, in the case of Magdi Allam, "Muslims." By contrast, aren't so many "reverts," from Leopold Weiss (Mustafa As'ad) to St. John Philby to John Walker Lindh and David Hicks and Richard Reid and Yvonne Ridley, just a little, or a very great deal, off?

Above is one explanation, a more innocent one, for the behavior of this bizarre representative of Islam, Robert D. Crane. Another, more sinister explanation, is that Crane wishes to keep up a collective game of "Let's Pretend." Let's tell Muslims there is nothing wrong with Islam; let's tell Muslims that yes, they are right, the "real" Islam is swell, and there is nothing to worry about. And in so doing, of course, we are also forced to tell another audience -- ourselves, the audience of Infidels -- the same soothing untruths, soothing and dangerous. We will then, presumably, not be sufficiently alert and wary to protect ourselves from, inter alia, the Money Weapon, campaigns of Da'wa, and demographic conquest.

After all, if, as Robert D. Crane claims, there is nothing wrong with Islam, and if his characterization of Robert Spencer is correct, if Spencer is indeed "diabolical" and prompted by the carefully-undefined "islamophobia," then we should do nothing to protect ourselves against not only or merely terrorism, but against that Money Weapon that supports the spread of Islam all over the Western and greater Infidel world. We should do nothing to hinder those well-financed carefully targeted campaigns of Da'wa, which are planned like a military campaigns. That is, of course, what they are. And of course we should do nothing about demographic conquest, the beginnings of which were made possible by Infidel negligence and naivete -- the very negligence, the very naivete, that the Cranes of this world would in sweetly sinister fashion have continued until it is too late.

Why not? For Crane, as for other converts or reverts, Islam should cover the globe, Islam should dominate, Muslims should rule.

If, however, you do not agree with the true-believing likes of Robert D. Crane (or the propaganda spun by the armies of Western hirelings, academics, journalists, ex-diplomats, who are "only" doing it for the money), then you may not be eager to participate in this collective game, a game to be played by Infidels in order that Muslims will not be offended and pushed into the camp of the "extremists." If, in other words, you agree that the work Robert Spencer has done in his meticulous presentations, devoid of rhetorical frills or furbelows, and based deliberately not on Western texts, but entirely on the texts of Islam, or on the commentaries on those texts by Muslims themselves, is valuable, then you will not take kindly to the likes of Crane attempting to persuade you that we can "do more good" with Muslims by never telling these truths to ourselves as well as to them, never bringing up the evidence of the texts (or for that matter the evidence of 1350 years of Jihad-conquest, and subsequent subjugation of non-Muslims of every kind).

No, you will not take kindly to such advice at all. You will instead regard Robert D. Crane as what he is: a transparent propagandist for Islam. Whether fully or semi-demented, is to me unclear. But it hardly matters.

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74 Comments

Filial piety? "Cultural Muslims"?

What does that mean? If it means Arab dress or halal food, that's fine. What about the person who goes into a mosque and listens to threats of death to the world and just shrugs, says his prayers and leaves?

Aren't the bulk of Muslims "cultural"? They might not approve of violence against those who leave the faith but they also do nothing to stop it. They don't take steps to remove the violent from their midst. They don't demand the removal of sheikhs who preach that non-Muslims must be eliminated. Their refusal to confront the extremists in their midst makes them accessories to all of the violence being conducted in the name of Islam.

Would we have accepted a "cultural Nazi" in 1946? We didn't kill all Germans but the world demanded the denazification of German society. The Japanese had to renounce the divinity of the emperor. There is nothing similar being called for anywhere in Islam.

I prefer to think that one "perverts" to Islam, rather than "converts" or "reverts". It seems to fit better, since Islam is a perverted mixture of Judaism, Christianity, and various pagan sources. And Mo himself was a pervert.

Mr. Fitzgerald,

While I enjoy your rhetorical abilities, the substance comes up short. For example, in English, we call a biography written by the author an "autobiography."

Second, let's discuss your cute associations. Those who have converted out of Islam are greater and, of course, smarter than those who choose to convert into Islam. Did you know that the man who stabbed the Jewish woman outside of the center in Seattle (look back, Spencer ranted for a week and kept calling him a Muslim) was a baptized Christian who hadn't been to a mosque in a decade? Did you know that last week here in Egypt a convert from Islam to Christianity killed an Imam and two worshippers while they were praying (check sout manoufiya, a local newspaper). Riots? Anti-Christian violence? No. The sheikh of the village and a local priest gathered an interfaith/town meeting (town meetings in Egypt are always interfaith because both Christians and Muslims go) to settle the conflict and the accused is awaiting trial. Unfortunately, WorldNet Daily and MEMRI didn't cover it...darn.

Third, I am looking for your evidence that Dr. Crane feels the following way:

"Why not? For Crane, as for other converts or reverts, Islam should cover the globe, Islam should dominate, Muslims should rule."

True, there are those who feel that way (I know a Christian here in Cairo who feels that Christianity should spread and dominate the globe), however I am curious as to your evidence that Dr. Crane feels that way, or are these just more empty words?

Fourth, I am having trouble with this one:

(or the propaganda spun by the armies of Western hirelings, academics, journalists, ex-diplomats, who are "only" doing it for the money)

This seems to describe you, Spencer, and your counterparts whom you described above just as well as it describes those like Dr. Crane.

Finally, Spencer worship always seems to make a good conclusion. True, he does use items written by Muslims as well as Islamic texts. Again, although you will ignore the remainder and write on this statement alone, they are chosen to fit his interpretations and have zero regard for texts written before or after them in support/clarification/disagreement with the texts that he cited and have a complete disregard for discourse AND other reasons (like Afghanis selling their daughters for Islam rather than economics, although he can provide 0 evidence that they did it for Islam, also like those Iranians who all follow Mohammed's "example" of marrying Aisha with the average marriage age in Iran in the mid-20s according to theirs and UN's statistics.

I am sure that a few comments will drift off into my "nievity" and, knowing your temper and contempt for those who disagree with you (you do want democracy, right?), you'll probably try to ban me again. We'll see.

Just doing some thinking...
(That phrase really seems to get you guys. I keep laughing...)

1) Denial : The initial stage: "It can't be happening."
2) Anger : "How dare you do this to me?!" (either referring to God, oneself, or anybody perceived, rightly or wrongly, as "responsible")
3) Bargaining : "Just let me live to see my son graduate."
4) Depression : "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
5) Acceptance : "I know that I will be in a better place."

Elisabeth Kubler Ross' stages of acceptance of painful reality-fact appear reversed with reverts to Islam. Crane Bob-Square Pants is in denial as the last stage of his development and grasp of reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Death_and_Dying

"An American":

To take just one of your distortions, you say:

Did you know that the man who stabbed the Jewish woman outside of the center in Seattle (look back, Spencer ranted for a week and kept calling him a Muslim) was a baptized Christian who hadn't been to a mosque in a decade?

Yet the shooter actually cried out:

"I'm a Muslim American; I'm angry at Israel."

I didn't make that up. It's from this news story:

http://www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_072806WABshootingEL.3d89c1.html

I am unaware of any committed Christians who identify themselves as "Muslim Americans," but perhaps you can enlighten us.

As for the rest, your rhetorical tricks can be turned on yourself: you ask Hugh for evidence of what he asserted about Crane, and then you make unsubstantiated and false assertions about my motives and my work. Physician, heal thyself.

Finally, you say of me:

True, he does use items written by Muslims as well as Islamic texts. Again, although you will ignore the remainder and write on this statement alone, they are chosen to fit his interpretations and have zero regard for texts written before or after them in support/clarification/disagreement with the texts that he cited and have a complete disregard for discourse AND other reasons (like Afghanis selling their daughters for Islam rather than economics, although he can provide 0 evidence that they did it for Islam, also like those Iranians who all follow Mohammed's "example" of marrying Aisha with the average marriage age in Iran in the mid-20s according to theirs and UN's statistics.

A few requests regarding your assertions in that paragraph:

1. Please provide an example or two of the interpretations written "before or after" ones that I cite, which supply "support/clarification/disagreement" with the texts I do cite.

2. If you mean the matter of Aisha's age, I am still waiting for you to paste in here the Arabic texts to which you claimed to have access, which coincidentally match entirely the texts given in the Wikipedia article about this question. Nor did you ever respond to the substantive points I raised, and here you misrepresent them. To refresh your memory, our earlier exchange is here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016333.php

3. I have never claimed that Afghans sold their daughters "for Islam." If you think I have, produce the quote. What I have said is that the commodification of women in Islamic law abets the acceptability of this practice. Do you disagree? If so, on what grounds?

4. I have never said that "Iranians...all follow Mohammed's 'example' of marrying Aisha." I have never said that most or even many of them follow his example in this. If you think I have, produce the quote. What I have said is that Khomeini lowered the legal age for marriage to nine for girls, because of Muhammad's example. Is this false? If so, please provide evidence. And I have said that child marriage is difficult to eradicate in the Islamic world, because of Muhammad's example. Is that false? If so, please provide evidence.

5. Given numbers 1 through 4 above, why should anyone at this site regard you as a trustworthy relayer of information of any kind? It is hard for people to credit your claim that you are "just doing some thinking" when what you are rather obviously doing is not thinking at all, but defaming me and propagandizing.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Add Walid Shoebat to the list of intellectually and morally superior people who have left Islam after having been indoctrinated in hate since birth. Truly, they are marvelous spirits.

And yes, let us compare them to those dimb bulbs and wierdos who "revert" into Islam.

Islam is like a semi-permeable membrane that lets intelligence out and stupidity in. Combine that with a propensity for marriage of relatives and the future doesn't look bright for the moon god people.

An American-

There is not one country where Muslims dominate that give equality of rights to non-believers. That's a fact. The belief-system is a rationalization for dominance, exploitation, intolerance, supremacism, and lies that assert that Islam accords equal rights to non-believers in Muslim dominated countries. Muslims have no right to ask for acceptance of their belief-system until that intolerance and supremacism changes in the Muslim world.

The Muslim world is sick to its core from its intolerance of other beliefs. Are you going to lie and say Islam is a "religion of tolerance" of non-belief, that Muslims accord equality rights to non-Muslims? Are you a liar?

An American-

Do Muslims, in Muslim dominated countries, accord equality of belief to non-Muslims? Why not?

You are a coward and will not answer these questions. You are a liar.

Also add in Dr. Wafa Sultan.

I agree. "Just doing some thinking" is actually "Just doing some propagandizing."

For some reason, Muslims throw out generalizations and don't think they will be asked to provide specific examples to support their generalizations! Nope, that's not "thinking," that's being a Supremacist Muslim.

The problem with that, Supremacist Muslim "An American," is that we don't consider you to be "supreme." The faster you comprehend that, the better.

So, you should start backing up your generalizations with specific examples to support them, as Mr. Spencer asked you to do, if you can find any.

"An American":

To take just one of your distortions, you say:
Did you know that the man who stabbed the Jewish woman outside of the center in Seattle (look back, Spencer ranted for a week and kept calling him a Muslim) was a baptized Christian who hadn't been to a mosque in a decade?

They were 'shot' inside, not stabbed outside...credibility lost first paragraph...Now who is distorting what?

Howdy, column day is back.

1. Your interpretation of 9:29: Look back one step in the same book: 9:28 clarifies 9:29 as not meaning "non-Muslims" as you have stated time and time again, but rather those specifically in Mecca who had constatnly persecuted Muslims by killng them, taking their land, and persuing them until they were eventually defeated by the Musilms, using this verse. Your "other sources" solidifying your interpretations, state the same thing in their theoretical explanations and there have been multiple other texts written after further clarifying that your interpretation is wrong.

Example 2: The last couple of weeks you have been ranting every post or two about 47:4 using it to incite hatred "smite at their necks". Look forward to 47:9, which defines those people not as "non-Muslims" as you imply in your discussions, but rather those who hate what God has sent down to them. If Muslims believe that the Torah and Bible were sent down from God (as well as other texts including Hindu and Buddhist texts depending on the Islamic era, but you really don't care about that) then they don't deserve this smitin'. However, you jump to it.

2. Poor Spencer. If you knew anything about how publishing goes in the Middle East, you would know that it is extremely easy to have a 18th Century hand-written Quran, much less a 1979 widely-published (in fact the second-most widely published Arabic edition of Tabari behind Dar al Sharouk's 1990s edition). I personally agree with the Wikipedia statements; why don't you look them up and prove me wrong?

3. When I provided my arguments against your interpretaion of Aisha's marriage, you stated that Afghanis are selling their daughters at a very young age (you didn't give the age, though). Explicitly, no. You are a very smart boy. Implicitly, yes. If you didn't intend to say that, why did you say it?

4. As the discussion unfolded, you said that Muslims (this is a collective noun, meaning 1 billion people) follow the example of Mohammed, and that Khomeini lowered the age. Explicitly, no. Again, implicitly, yes. Why would you make such an attempt to cite that example including another one about a Saudi (no evidence for that one either) if you didn't intend to tie them to the issue? This is confusing

5. A filler in your response, so I will make it a filler for mine. In math, we have something called the transitive property. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. Jihadists=those who follow the Quran and Sunnah. Those who follow the Quran and Sunnah = all Muslims. Therefore, by your logic, Jihadists=all Muslims, regardless of how you mask it. Although your wining is cute, your hate mongering is not, and I understand the reason organizations and the federal government ban you, although I do not agree with the banning.

Just doing some thinking
(I like how you devoted a point to this statement by itself, makes you think, doesn't it?)

"Elisabeth Kubler Ross' stages of acceptance of painful reality-fact appear reversed with reverts to Islam. Crane Bob-Square Pants is in denial as the last stage of his development and grasp of reality." Posted by: Frank

Frank -- That is very interesting!

Hugh Fitzgerald -- Well said, as always.

An American-

You are a coward. You are a liar. You didn't anwer my questions. Why?-LOL

An American-

Since I know that you are not very bright, I'll repeat the questions for you.....

Do Muslims, in Muslim dominated countries, accord equality of belief to non-Muslims? Why not?

"Whether fully or semi-demented, is to me unclear. But it hardly matters."

Quote of the week. Applies to another poster (poser?) on this thread.

"An American":

Howdy, column day is back.

Yes, it is column day. Why you think this is useful material for scorn, I don't know, but have your fun.

1. Your interpretation of 9:29: Look back one step in the same book: 9:28 clarifies 9:29 as not meaning "non-Muslims" as you have stated time and time again, but rather those specifically in Mecca who had constatnly persecuted Muslims by killng them, taking their land, and persuing them until they were eventually defeated by the Musilms, using this verse. Your "other sources" solidifying your interpretations, state the same thing in their theoretical explanations and there have been multiple other texts written after further clarifying that your interpretation is wrong.

9:29 says Muslims should fight against and subjugate the "People of the Book." Are the "People of the Book" not non-Muslims?

As for the idea that the text was referring only to those particular non-Muslims who had fought against the Muslims in Muhammad's time, unfortunately this is not a majority view. Nor is it borne out by 9:28, which refers to the "mushrikun," which Islamic apologists usually insist do not include the People of the Book; if they're right, 9:28 doesn't refer to the same group as 9:29 at all.

In any case, I have, in explaining how Islamic jihadists today justify their actions by invoking 9:29 and other Qur'anic passages, noted the Islamic idea, originated by Ibn Ishaq, that Muhammad received revelations about warfare in three stages: first, tolerance; then, defensive warfare; and finally, offensive warfare in order to convert the unbelievers to Islam or make them pay the jizya (as in 9:29, as well as Sahih Muslim 4294, etc.). Tafasir by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, As-Suyuti and others agree on this, as does Ibn Qayyim and, in the modern age, Qutb, Maududi, the Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik (author of "The Qur'anic Concept of War"), Saudi Chief Justice Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid (in his "Jihad in the Qur'an and Sunnah"), the Pakistani Islamic jurist Imran Ahsan Khan Nyazee, and others.

You claim now that sources I cite don't actually say what I represent them as saying. Please provide evidence of this. Are any of those people I just listed the "other sources" that I supposedly erroneously cite? If so, please provide evidence of how I have misquoted or selectively quoted any or all of them.

Example 2: The last couple of weeks you have been ranting every post or two about 47:4 using it to incite hatred "smite at their necks". Look forward to 47:9, which defines those people not as "non-Muslims" as you imply in your discussions, but rather those who hate what God has sent down to them. If Muslims believe that the Torah and Bible were sent down from God (as well as other texts including Hindu and Buddhist texts depending on the Islamic era, but you really don't care about that) then they don't deserve this smitin'. However, you jump to it.

Actually, 47:4 refers to the "unbelievers" -- kuffar. Yes, I would take that to refer to "non-Muslims." If those non-Muslims must be only those who "hate what God has sent down to them," that would include Jews and Christians (and Hindus and Buddhists) in any case, as we can see from verses such as Qur'an 3:19: "The Religion before Allah is Islam: Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account." And such as 2:89, which says of the Jews, "And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith - when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."

Anyway, your difficulty here is that I didn't make up the idea that Islam sanctions the beheading of those perceived as enemies of Islam. Your coreligionists in Iraq and elsewhere seem to have caught on to this idea without my help. When Zarqawi beheaded Berg (who was, after all, one of the People of the Book), he justified it by invoking Muhammad's practice after Badr. Yet instead of working to prevent that within Islam, you direct your efforts at defaming me. I think if you really believe what you say about Islam, your time would be better spent trying to convince your violent coreligionists that you are right.

2. Poor Spencer. If you knew anything about how publishing goes in the Middle East, you would know that it is extremely easy to have a 18th Century hand-written Quran, much less a 1979 widely-published (in fact the second-most widely published Arabic edition of Tabari behind Dar al Sharouk's 1990s edition). I personally agree with the Wikipedia statements; why don't you look them up and prove me wrong?

I have already. I answered you here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016333.php

You are trying to obscure the point of why I keep asking you to produce these Arabic texts, so I'll spell it out: I am calling your bluff. You claim to have studied this issue from the Arabic Tabari, which you claim to own. I think you just looked it up on Wikipedia, and otherwise haven't done any research at all. So go ahead, prove me wrong: produce the Arabic texts. I'll be right here.

3. When I provided my arguments against your interpretaion of Aisha's marriage, you stated that Afghanis are selling their daughters at a very young age (you didn't give the age, though). Explicitly, no. You are a very smart boy. Implicitly, yes. If you didn't intend to say that, why did you say it?

I said it for the reason I gave in that post, and for the reason I explained above: to show that the argument over Aisha's age is not an academic discussion over old books, but one with consequences in the Islamic world. Obviously men sell their daughters for economic reasons. But in doing so, they consider themselves justified because of Islam's commodification of women. You, in contrast, are apparently contending that because they sold their daughters for economic reasons, therefore Islam could have had nothing to do with it. Why, then, is it Western human rights organizations and not Islamic groups that are trying to stop this practice?

4. As the discussion unfolded, you said that Muslims (this is a collective noun, meaning 1 billion people) follow the example of Mohammed, and that Khomeini lowered the age. Explicitly, no. Again, implicitly, yes. Why would you make such an attempt to cite that example including another one about a Saudi (no evidence for that one either) if you didn't intend to tie them to the issue? This is confusing

Here's a story about the Saudi:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-01-01-saudi-polygamy_x.htm

So you are trying to claim that I said that all Muslims marry children because of Muhammad? That's palpably ridiculous, and contradicted by my own words in the same piece you're referring to. I said: "all too many Muslims worldwide are acting on that belief and marrying children." Does "all too many" equal "all"? Of course not. This is the sort of rhetorical game-playing that, along with your arrogance and scorn, makes many people here distrust you.

5. A filler in your response, so I will make it a filler for mine. In math, we have something called the transitive property. If A=B and B=C, then A=C. Jihadists=those who follow the Quran and Sunnah. Those who follow the Quran and Sunnah = all Muslims. Therefore, by your logic, Jihadists=all Muslims, regardless of how you mask it. Although your wining is cute, your hate mongering is not, and I understand the reason organizations and the federal government ban you, although I do not agree with the banning.

The ban was politically motivated, and has been removed. You and your allies' continued attempts to label the truth about how Muslims use the jihad theology to justify violence as "hate mongering" will continue to founder in the face of the facts. In any case, your contention that "all Muslims" follow the Qur'an and Sunnah is absurd, just as it would be absurd to say that the Catholic Church forbids contraception, therefore all Catholics eschew contraception. In all religious traditions, there is a spectrum of belief, knowledge, and fervor, and I have noted this about Islam and Muslims innumerable times. Your attempt here to claim that I have lumped all Muslims together in this is factually false, logically wrong, and just more evidence that you're not interested in truth and accuracy, but only in propaganda.

Just doing some thinking (I like how you devoted a point to this statement by itself, makes you think, doesn't it?)

Yes. It makes me think that you are trying to put lipstick on a pig: hide your obsfuscations and lies behind the veneer of a disinterested analysis.

By the way, still waiting for that evidence of committed Christians identifying themselves as "Muslim Americans," and all the rest of it.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

The Qur'an defines Christians as mushrikun in several verses. Most notably Q5.72-73 - surah 5 being, chronologically, either the last or second to last surah in the Qur'an (aborgating any verse the might contradict its meaning).

A historical context has no meaning for a book that was uncreated and was god's final message to mankind. If it applied to Muhammad's time and place, why wouldn't it apply to all other times? How is a Muslim supposed to know the difference? Wouldn't the perfect Qur'an have provided an explaination? Should it's meanings not be so vague and confusing?

An American posted:

"Example 2: The last couple of weeks you have been ranting every post or two about 47:4 using it to incite hatred "smite at their necks". Look forward to 47:9, which defines those people not as "non-Muslims" as you imply in your discussions, but rather those who hate what God has sent down to them. If Muslims believe that the Torah and Bible were sent down from God (as well as other texts including Hindu and Buddhist texts depending on the Islamic era, but you really don't care about that) then they don't deserve this smitin'. However, you jump to it."

Or you could just jump back to 47:2, which describes believers as "Those who believe and do good, and believe what has been revealed to Muhammad..."

Those who want to believe only in the Torah or the Gospels without Muhammad's addendum would be Unbelievers, and 47:4 applies to them.

Frank...I am in one or the other of those stages most of the time, usually denial...And I am not dying, at least not that I know of. Of course we are all dying, that starts at conception. It's strange how 'living' and 'dying', start at the same time.


Age of consent in the states vary from 16-18. There are no states where the age of sexual consent is lower than 16.
Yet in Geo Washington's day, the age of consent was 10 years old. Child brides were common.
Now did a mass of 10 year olds lobby for this 'consent'? Or was it the work of dirty and lecherous old men who wanted to play with little girls?
There is evidence that Mohammad thought it was a good thing to play with little girls.
The commonality of this cuts through religion and politics. A dirty lecherous old man who wants to play with little girls is a pedaphile, who will use his power position to further his hideous, and evil aims.
I dont bring this up to support Mohammad by moral equivilancy, but to point out that while mohammad is guilty of being a dirty lecherous old man, he is by far not the only one. In the west, dirty lecherous old men, who abuse children, are put in prison. In Allahs world, they found religions...

"An American" -- even the nickname gives away the classic arrogance of the Islamist enemy. The United States isn't yours quite yet.

I wish I had a time machine some mornings and I could just zoom to the future ten years ahead so I can get to the action. This buildup to the inevitable confrontation with Islam is starting to bore me.

I think folks like Robert are well aware that the issue of Muhammad with his child bride has to be put in the context of Muhammed's time.

Ideas of morality sometimes change for the better as civilizations become less primitive. For example, child labor was standard practice in America and elsewhere in the industrial world well into the 20th century. (My grandfather went to work full-time when he was 13 years old. He never had more than a grade school education. He got his "working papers" and went to work to support his mother and brothers. His father died in an accident.) However, most civilized societies now view child-labor as wrong and provide some kind of social safty net for the early death of a family's breadwinner.

Robert's criticism of Muhammad and the child bride is really directed at those Muslims who continue the practice of marrying children based on Muhammad's example. Robert is asserting that this aspect of Muhammad and Muslim teaching must be rejected as a relic of the past. He's asking for an end to the silence on this matter.

Unfortunately, child marriage is still accepted in much of the Muslim world. It should be a relic of the past.

duh_swami-

Anyway, I hope I got it right re Robert's view on the matter. If not, I'm sure he'll let me know.

My grandfather Frank Price had four daughters and three of them (excluding my mother) went to college. That's the opportunity in America. However, in the early 20th century my grandfather had to go to work full time. He was self-educated and eventually became a manger at the New York Cotton Exchange on Wall Street. He was smart.

READ THIS PERFECT POST FROM ABOVE: Filial piety? "Cultural Muslims"?

What does that mean? If it means Arab dress or halal food, that's fine. What about the person who goes into a mosque and listens to threats of death to the world and just shrugs, says his prayers and leaves?

Aren't the bulk of Muslims "cultural"? They might not approve of violence against those who leave the faith but they also do nothing to stop it. They don't take steps to remove the violent from their midst. They don't demand the removal of sheikhs who preach that non-Muslims must be eliminated. Their refusal to confront the extremists in their midst makes them accessories to all of the violence being conducted in the name of Islam.

Would we have accepted a "cultural Nazi" in 1946? We didn't kill all Germans but the world demanded the denazification of German society. The Japanese had to renounce the divinity of the emperor. There is nothing similar being called for anywhere in Islam.

Posted by: PMK at July 21, 2007 9:07 AM
CAN'T YOU ALL SEE WHAT THE ABOVE IS SAYING? IT SAYS: "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A MUSLIM THAT IS NOT VERY NEAR TO BEING A MUDRDERER! THEY READ A BOOK OF MURDER CALLED THE KORAN, AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT - ALL MUSLIMS ARE STRONGLY INCLINED BY CULTURE AND THE KORAN, TO BE COLD BLOODED MURDERERS - When we do not say this, and teach it everywhere, we just contribute to the murder and slavery that grows bigger and more dangerous everyday, everyway - there never will ever be such a thing as a fully sane Muslim who is not a great danger to have around - please, get real and tell the truth about this mainstream sick religion so that lives will be saved and happiness will grow.

Robert wrote:

" This is the sort of rhetorical game-playing that, along with your arrogance and scorn, makes many people here distrust you."
Exactly right. Isn't this the "Hatshepsut" poster? -- the same too-clever-by-half demeanor, arrogance, and faux civility.

Give me a straight-up jihadi with a sword over this oily type any day.

For a really good look at a pathological, sociopathic "revert" go to Youtube and type in "Yusef al khatab" and see what you come up with. Little Green Footballs had a pice on him last week. Apparently he and his wife and four children left converted from Judaism to Islam. He also has videos posted on "Jews for Allah" (a site kept up by an Egyptian imam.)He is an utterly pathetic creature; and this is brought out in the videos he posts.

He is active in a group called "Islamic Thinkers Society" that picketed in front of the World Trade Center Ruins. His account was taken off Youtube when he posted a video showing himself gloating over the murder of Mr. Pearl in Pakistan.
Sick puppy this guy.

I have serious doubts that "An American" is an authentic identity, because the sophistry and taqiyya employed point more in a different direction. Nevertheless, even if truly an American, I would say that the clues provided, encoded within the bias of his discourses, we are possibly dealing with a Muslim, maybe even al Qaeda. An American living in Cairo, passionately defending Islam and resorting to distortions which have been more than adequately unmasked by Robert, could very easily be a conveniently deceptive nom de plume.

The barely concealed animus towards Robert cannot hide the agenda.

I own no copies of ahadith, but I do have an English translation of the Qur'an and I have read it. Perhaps THE most difficult "book" I have ever read - even more disjointed and difficult than The Gnostic Gospels. It lacks a narrative structure. Nevertheless, when I read a book or article of Robert's I often go to the Qur'an to see the citations given. He's never been deceptive and has been unfailingly accurate.

"An American" has foolishly decided to enter the belly of the Beast. He would be better off inserting himself into the Leftist blogs, where the membership would put him on a pedestal of unprecedented honor for his "erudition" and "reasoning."

Tom,
I think you overstate my point. It's not that all Muslims are or would be murderers. Most would be happy to live in a free society. The problem is that they will not disassociate themselves from those who want a global caliphate and those who are using violence to achieve it. They can't have it both ways.

I would just like someone to define "cultural Muslim".

It sounds very much like an attempt to have it both ways.

The Iranian people want nuclear power but they're not sure they want nuclear weapons. They could have had the benefits of nuclear power but their government wasn't satisfied. Now they say they want to be freed from the rule of the mullahs. They want someone else to come and save them but they're nationalists. The two are incompatible.

What in the "culture" of Islam is compatible with free and open societies? What do "cultural Muslims" offer to the West that tells us that they are not interested in global hegemony? Either they believe the Koran or they don't. I find it difficult to distinguish between the two because Muslims themselves will not. Until they reform their faith, what are we supposed to do? If "cultural Muslim" means what I think it means, I would once have put Iranians in that camp. They proved me wrong in 1979. Even assuming 1979 was a flash in the pan, what have Iranians done since then but make known their antipathy for all things non-Muslim? As far as I know, we're still the great Satan.

People like Crane and Norquist are traitors who merit the punishment of traitors. Or, have we forgotten what that means and how to deal with it?

The fact that people like this do not do what they do openly, but must do it behind the scenes and quietly speaks very loudly about their intentions.

They don't like it when what they do is brought into the light of day. And neither do their Saudi paymasters.

The way Russia & China are aligning themselves with Muslim nations against Israel & the US, I wonder if Mr. Crane's decision to jump into Islam is knowingly more sinister than meets the eye.

Frank~

The issue with Muhammad's character - including but not limited to his marriage to Aisha - is that Allah in the Qur'an says he was without err, a beautiful example for a Muslim who wishes to enter paradise. Therefore his example has no historical context. What was good for him was good for all Muslims for all time. Reformists have this insurmountable obstacle to conquer before they can even think about reform.

AnAmerican is a sad person who tries to make sense of the the 8th century death cult he calls islam. how does any educated Western person ever try to become a muslim? its one thing to be born a muslim like the creature Naseems, but to actually become a muslim, there must be a defect in their character.

I have studied American Colonial history and there is no evidence of child marriage at age 10.

There is a huge difference between BETROTHAL and actually consumating a marriage with an underage party.

Ayatollah Khomeiniac promoted the notion of men using infants for pleasure as long as penetration did not occur.

This is why, among many things, islam is a deviant cult.

Norquist and Crane will likely be viewed in the near future as substantially less than patriots.

Hopefully as all the Saudi funded whores of the beltway will be.

Bless the West, bless our troops,and all our fighters.

Hey Ibrahim, what kind of pseudonyms are you now hiding behind ?

How many times have muslims or apologists used the word 'CUTE', in their posts? The only two that I know of are 'An American', twice today, and Progressive, two or three times since he has been posting here. 'An American' is never on the board at the same time as Progressive. It may be possible that Rick, Chris, watcher and Progressive are the same person. Maybe not, but the use of the word 'cute', is suspicious. It would be unusual for any muslim to use that word, but two???


METHINKS THAT THEY DO PRAISE WITH FAINT DAMNATION.

There is "an American" here who thinks funny.

The kind of thinking intended to keep other Heads firmly planted in the Sand.

Such bitter Fruit this growth produces.

Gnosis-

Yes. The issue goes way beyond the protection equal rights and equal responsibilities in society, which should include the rights of children to be children and not be treated as adults until they have the psychological-emotional defenses of adults. What should be a matter of common sense and decency (as with the abolition of child labor) is almost impossible as long as Muhammad of the 7th century remains a role model for Muslims.

The people who criticize Robert on this matter either deliberately or unconsciously avoid the fact that he is simply pointing out that this not uncommon practice of marrying girls by grown men is defended by using Mr.-7th-Century-Muhammad as an example. Robert is stating a fact. Robert is not attacking Muhammad, but pointing out that this common 7th century practice continues to be common because 7th century morality is defended by Muslims using Muhammad as an example. Fair enough. So why the outrage by so many Muslims? I think it's because many Muslims (particularly clerics) know that once critical analysis of Muhammad is permitted on anything it will not stop. That's the real issue. Many Muslims cannot afford to concede that what he is saying is simply the plain truth. So they attack Robert.

Although the day is finished and you might not respond, I feel that I must:

1. Biggest bold-faced lie that I have ever heard on this site: 9:29 says People of the Book: Please clarify, the Arabic can be found here:

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

Nowhere, and I repeat, nowhere in that entire chapter is the phrase Ahl al-Kitaab mentioned. Also, can you please state the Islamic source who cites People of the Book in the group of those who reject faith, with the Arabic citation. I have yet to read it from ANY Islamic source. These are two different distinctions and most books go into extreme detail discussing it, even placing Buddhists and Hindus into Ahl al Kitaab frequently. You will spin this as a semantic difference, but if you know anything about Islam then you should understand that it is far more than a semantic issue.

I would like to know what books state that my view is not a majority view, and what scholars have placed Christians and Jews collectively in Kuffar. Qutb (if you actually read his stuff) was referring specifically to those secular and the modernity of Christianity in America as who have strayed from their own religious laws. On the other hand, his other writings after his return to Egypt from his stay in Colorado speak very highly of the Copts and other Christian groups living in Egypt as much closer to the true faith (Deen al Haq as in 9:29) than those in America. The site mentioned provided the following explanation to 9:29 (the largest Islamic resource site on the internet, not a majority view, I suppose:

This, to my mind, is the key-phrase of the above ordinance. The term "apostle" is obviously used here in its generic sense and applies to all the prophets on whose teachings the beliefs of the Jews and the Christians are supposed to be based - in particular, to Moses and (in the case of the Christians) to Jesus as well (Manar X, 333 and 337). Since, earlier in this sentence, the people alluded to are accused of so grave a sin as wilfully refusing to believe in God and the Last Day (i.e., in life after death and man's individual responsibility for his doings on earth), it is inconceivable that they should subsequently be blamed for comparatively minor offences against their religious law: consequently, the stress on their "not forbidding that which God and His apostle have forbidden" must refer to something which is as grave, or almost as grave, as disbelief in God. In the context of an ordinance enjoining war against them. this "something" can mean only one thing-namely, unprovoked aggression: for it is this that has been forbidden by God through all the apostles who were entrusted with conveying His message to man. Thus, the above verse must be understood as a call to the believers to fight against such-and only such-of the nominal followers of earlier revelation as deny their own professed beliefs by committing aggression against the followers of the Qur'an (cf. Manar X, 338).(Quran Ref: 9:29 )

Also, your explanation is really cute. 9:29 and 9:28 were revealled together, meaning that the intended meanings are similar. Whoops, this is getting dangerous!

Again, you site the same sources that you do every day without really going into details. I explained Qutb above, and you still go on about that Saudi Chief Justice and the Pakistani general (two books that were written as political opinions are somehow majority views of all Muslims). This sounds like deja vu because we discussed Ishaq earlier, that you leave out steps in Ishaq's process:

1. They attack/take your land/kill you/kick you out of town
2. You do nothing
3. They attack some more/ take some more/ kill some more
4. You Defend yourself
5. They attack some more/ take some more/ kill some more
6. You can have offensive warfare

Steps 2, 4, and 6 sound great by themselves, but they need to be seen in context, which is something that Ibn Ishaq discusses in some detail, but you ignore.

This is getting long, so I won't go into too much detail about Sura 4 discussion, but I would like to call your attention to the discussion about being revealed together, just to hammer it in.

Everybody else, Muslim countries do offer a great deal of equal rights to non-Muslims. Is it completely equal, no. It isn't completely equal in the West. In my hometown, a group of 30 Muslims desired to build a mosque and the city gave them the runaround to the point that they gave up. In London, Muslims wanted to legitimately, legally build a mosque in I believe it was central London (I know nothing about Britain, so I'm not sure). It was to be the largest mosque in the West. However, because of something called "community disagreement" aka bullying and hatemongering and racism (just a switch of words...it's an "honor killing" in the Middle East but a "crime of passion" in the US, no difference, right?) it was stopped.

Also, here come the annoying naskh remarks. You guys read one sentence and then run home with it. Naskh has been discussed and used very specifically, and there are countless books that suggest that naskh is a junk science altogether. I have never heard the over-arching argument that "a later chapter overrides anything written before it." That's ignorance in a box.

You're Saudi story is cute, but there is 0 (zero/goose egg) evidence linking that man's personal preferences to those of Islam. If you really think about it, he was totally off after 4 without any discussion. (The four wives thing is for another discussion, with the conditions, societal discussions, etc. that have applied in mainstream Islam and the practice's applications over 1400 years---in many cases very different from the Quranic verse, but that would hurt your "the Quran and Sunnah have direct modern consequences" argument, so I won't go there).

Finally, before I call it a night, I like the cute "you're a Muslim" (you said "your co-religionists") implication in the middle there and thank you to all the others for focusing your anger on accusing me of being a Muslim, as if that's a crime or something. I am a baptised and confirmed Episcopalian who attended church every Sunday and am now living in Cairo, Egypt, and attend church here (in a Muslim country--boogy boogy) without any problems, period.

Just doing some thinking...
By the way, Spencer just keeps o-pining about those Tabri quotes. Look them up yourself, I'm sure you'll find them right where I said they were. Calling a bluff is a cute way to put it, (I passed the reading comprehension class you suggested, and am inviting you to a Quranic basics class, you really need one). I am still wondering why you didn't answer the quotes I posted: (the link was just a copy of our discussion, along with your always flowery commentary and 0 refutation of the comments or references that I posted---I feel bad that I missed it and am honored that you dedicated a post to me.

Ana aasif 2awy a3lashan alkalam alfadi al6aweel, bas ana raghai kibeer.

An American-

You still have answered the question.

Do Muslims, in Muslim dominated countries, accord equality of belief to non-Muslims? Why not?

Gnosis-

The real issue is not Robert or anyone else who asks embarrassing questions re Islam, the issue is other Muslims who will start asking questions about whether Mr. 7th century Muhammad's example should be followed re child marriage and other things. The fear is of Muslims questioning and critically analysing Islam.

In the old USSR the issue was not really Solzhenitsyn. In like manner, the trial of Galileo was not really about Galileo. Galileo looked through his telescope and said the moon is not smooth, but has hills and valleys and craters, and noted the planets revolve around the sun. Many could not concede those facts. So they attacked Galileo for his observations, warned him to shut-up, and even threatened his life. But Galileo was not the issue.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_Galilei#Church_controversy

Frank: Yes. (Although your questions was neatly worded, "Why not")

Egypt, a country 85% Muslim, does not hinder the equality of belief of non-Muslims (save 1 recent trial which is on appeal and will more than likely get overturned). Syria, a country only 60% Sunni Muslim, does not hinder the equality of belief of non-Muslims. Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, and to the best of my knowledge Libya as well do not hinder the equality of belief of non-Muslims, and there are no laws restricting their practice. The UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, and Bahrain are all countries of around 90% Muslim (although I would disagree, especially in the UAE) and does not hinder the equality of belief of non-Muslims.

Note: There ARE cases of discrimination, in all forms. In Egypt, for example, there are problems with church construction (relatively similar to non-Azhari mosques too, but nobody talks about them). In Gulf states, however, rulers actually donate land and have personally funded the construction of churches (see UAE, Qatar, and Kuwait). In Malaysia, only Muslims are subject to Sharia law, not non-Muslims. Porn shops there are open, but if you have Muslim on your ID you can't go in. In Thailand, Christians are killed by Muslims (Spencer only sees this in that form, not noting the fact that there might be an independence struggle/thing going on). However, your implication that it is a wide-spread, Islam-sponsored and government policy to discriminate against non-Muslims is completely wrong.

Just doing some thinking...
(Note, didn't use exact statistics, only what I think are current estimates...Copts are seriously underrepresented in CIA polling because the CIA and other organizations don't go into smaller villages where many Christians are to be found living with Muslims peacefully--MEMRI won't translate that one, there was a good show on O TV all about that the other day, I'll see if I can post a link).

You left out Saudi Arabia.

The right to equal preaching is essential if there is real equality of rights to beliefs in a society. To say otherwise is absurd.

Why is there no equality of rights to the preaching (and therefore the practice) of belief or non-belief in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries? Why not indeed?

AnAmerican you are NOT! You just gave yourself away as a bald-faced liar. An Egyptian you are and if you are Episcopalian than you are so dhimmified that you might as well become a muslim. Al of your so called learned muslim textual rhetoric does not change the fact that 90% of this world's violence is perpetrated by muslims on non-muslims and all the quotes from your religious texts cannot change that. Tthe fact is people like me are waking up reading your texts and educating ourselves on the actual reasons for muslim violence and murder. Nick Berg was innocent even thuogh in islamic text his jewish ethnicity lables him unclean, unworthy, and unfit to live. (Jews are pigs, et al)So to the ummah it was perfectly o.k. to behead him. (Refer to islamic text, please.)We really don't want to hear your nonsense about how you think we as freethinking citizens of this world misinterpret islamic text. You are not American. Imamerican

Sorry about the type-o's.

An American,

Equal rights to preach non-Muslim beliefs is essential to religious freedom, freedom of conscience, in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim dominated countries. There are no equal rights in Muslim countries in the matter of preaching. One is in grave danger if one seeks to convert a Muslim in a Muslim dominated society and one is in great danger if one converts to another religion in a Muslim dominated society. That's the truth. To say otherwise is bullshit. There are no equality of rights.

An American,

At least you had the guts to partially answer the question.

An American, to say that there is real equality, freedom of conscience, in Muslim dominated societies, is a bit of a stretch. Can you imagine the Salvation Army preaching and converting in Egypt, Syria, or Saudi Arabia? (I can just see them handing out fliers in Syria.) It would be a little dangerous. Don't you think so?

Frank:

True, Saudi Arabia is not the beacon of non-Muslim freedom of worship. However, it is one country with a population of (at the most) 25 million people (quite a few of which don't feel the same way as the government.) I don't believe that simply stating Saudi Arabia makes Islam the problem.

As for the Salvation Army, they do not have active branches in Egypt or Syria, no. However, I know personally of multiple evangelical organizations in Egypt that do the same thing (sort of) and I will check on Syria for you:

www.kdec.net
www.maadichurch.net

The two above are websites of evengelical churches operating in Cairo, Egypt. None of which have ever been subject to an attack, nor threats of attack from Muslims or Muslim organizations. The second one, granted, primarily caters to foreigners living in Cairo. However, the first one is almost 80% Egyptian converts, some former Muslims and others from different branches of Christianity. However, their greatest opposition comes from Copts, not Muslims. Many Copts see Protestants (as well as Catholics) as going against God's laws of things like fasting, worship, etc. and are mostly against Western evangelism. Also, Coptic Christianity is a relatively closed, family/group-knit religion, that doesn't have the same desires to convert the world that evangelical protestants do.

I think you've hit it exactly on the head: there IS freedom of conscience in Muslim countries, no doubt. Are there problems? Absolutely. Do people get killed? Absolutely. Do Muslims kill Christians for reasons other than them being Christians? Yes. Vice versa? Yes.

Just doing some thinking...
PS. I was in Syria 2 years ago so it has been a while, and they actually WERE passing out flyers for a program going on at a church in the old city to passers-by. The government is largely secular, however currently playing the "I'm more Muslim than you are" game, but that's another discussion that has far more to do with domestic politics than religion.

Imamerican:
Oh yeah, you've got me. Just because somebody knows how to write Egyptian colloquial Arabic means that I'm Egyptian. Yoda would say: How smart you are! However, you would be wrong again. I was born and raised by two white, protestant (baptist), American parents in Odessa, Texas and started attending the Episcopal church when I was a teenager because I liked the format/tradition more. I have yet to meet an Egyptian Episcopalian, although that might be interesting.

Jews were never mentioned as pigs, nor unclean, unworthy, nor unfit to live. There is a mention that "Jews"--Spencer often gets it wrong, it doesn't say Jews as a whole, rather specific groups----witnessed/deserved God's wrath for not following the rules (if you know things about Judaism/Christianity/Old Testament, you will know that the story is the same---lots of suffering). Also, I am assuming that you are referring to the "apes" thing. In Arabic, this is called al-tashbeeh (part of balaagha, 3ilm al-badiy3a if I am not completely wrong) where the word "like" should be injected in the sentence. Although there is no letter/word mentioning "like" (called adat al-tashbeeh) there is something called tashbeeh al-moqadera, where the tashbeeh (like) exists as hidden. Very common in poetry at the time of the sources of Islam (3asr sadr al-islam) as well as in the poems of al-moqadimeen (those who lived between Jahiliya and early Islamic periods). Sorry for the long explanation.

Sorry for the delay, but the shooter (you are correct it was not a stabbing, and I am sorry) at the Seattle Jewish Federation was baptized at the Word of Faith Church in the area in December--a year before the shooting, after attending a men's group there for some time. He also hadn't been seen at his local mosque in over 10 years.

The quote was REPORTED by a single person at the center, and was never confirmed in police reports, court proceedings, etc. and most news reports after initial reports from the scene left it out, not because they're "dhimmis"---sorry guys---but because there was no evidence that he said that. In such situations, people say they heard things that aren't true because they were caught up in the situation. Unfortunately here, people get caught up in things as well and won't let them go (Spencer probably still mentions the "law/bill" requiring non-Muslims to wear specific clothing in Iran, completely made up and retracted after they found out that the author was full of it and there was 0 evidence in the Iranian parliament or religious councils.)

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/279424_convert30ww.html

An American,

"Islam must dominate". The record of tolerance in Muslim countries is pretty bad when it comes to the free expression of non-Muslim beliefs, and invitations to conversion are very likely to result in a beating or worse, and treatment of Muslim converts to other persuasions is also likely to result in a beating or worse. I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally the rule is that Islam is not tolerant of other belief-systems in Muslim dominated countries.

Let's face the facts: we never see non-Muslims fleeing to Muslim countries to practice Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, etc. I don't hear non-Muslims say, "You know I just can't get over the tolerance and complete freedom of religion in Muslim countries. If you really want to see complete freedom of religion you gotta go to Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, Turkey, etc. You can't get over it. The world can learn a lesson in tolerance from Muslims to non-Muslims. They just practice the Golden Rule like crazy".

An American, people are not stupid. They know Muslim dominated countries are not tolerant. There is no separation of Mosque and State in most Muslim countries. You are trying to sell folks here an elephant and tell them it's a rabbit. They look at it and say, it's an elephant. It is what it is. Islam is not tolerant of other belief-systems. It is what it is.

An American,

You do two things which will never work with this crowd at JW. 1) You attempt to make the exception appear as if it is the rule. That goes against the rules of logic. The "exception" actually proves the rule. For example, the rule is that in Muslim dominated countries that "Islam must dominate". The exceptions to the rule do exist-but they are exceptions. Most folks know that if you want religious freedom, separation of religion from state, you are not likely to get that in a Muslim dominated society. The facts are facts.

The second thing you do is that (as Abe Lincoln said) "you tell half-truths that tell whole lies". You leave out important facts in order to persuade. That's what propagandists do. It's sometimes effective, but it's very vulnerable to critical analysis and will make the person who does that look like a complete ass when they face somebody using the rules of logic and the whole truth.

It's best to stick close to the facts. Islam is generally very intolerant to other belief systems. There are exceptions, but they are not the rule. The facts are facts. Nobody is running to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria, etc. for religious freedom. They are fleeing those places if they want that. "A cat is a cat and that's that". And as Fitzgerald once said, "the cat's out of the bag" re Islam.

An American - so are you saying that in mainstream Islam - sura 9:29 does not imply that Jews and Christians are to pay the jizyah (as opposed to converting or being put to death?)

Please be very clear here in citing your sources (I would appreciate it of you would go beyond this one source - Manar X, 338 citation which you have already cited) so that there is no confusion.

Thanks in advance!

It would appear that An American is fully in line with the Arab/Middle Eastern mindset where long rambling dissertations are regarded as a sign of high learning and intellectual pedigree. It matters not whether the content is vague, off point, contradictory etc etc. Never mind the quality, feel the width. Here in the west we have a different outlook, illustrated by the saying: Brevity is wit. Yet another reason for the relative backwardness of Arab/Islamic civilisation.

In Morocco leaving Islam is punishable by a three-year prison sentence. In Libya there are no Christians (remember when Khadaffi confiscated the cathedral and turned it into a mosque) and leaving Islam is a crime. Apostates have been persecuted in Egypt, and Kuwait; and they have been executed in Iran, Sodomy Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, etc.

Jews were stripped of their citizenship and rights to legal protection in "secular democratic" Algeria immediately upon that nation's independence, leaving NO non-Muslims in that bastion of religious and ethnic tolerance. It did not matter that those people had lived tehre for 700 years BEFORE a single Arab had ever set foot there. An ancient community numbering some 150,000 was destroyed within months, its synagogues stolen, its homes confiscated for Muslims, etc. This sorry history repeated itself everywhere under Islam and is too involved to repeat here in all its sorbid, barbaric details.

An American, your taquiya is disingenious.

Brett, Look at the Quran, hadiths and sura. They use the same kind of contradictory and vague wordage as Mr. "Epicopalian". Thus his or her
inability to answer the unprovoked slaughter of Nick Berg and so many others at the hands of his
muslim brethren. They will not confront the inhuman nature of their belief system. And just because you're raised by Americans doesn't make you a true American patriot.

"An American":

I don't know if you are self-deceived or lying here, but this one is really a whopper. You say:

Although the day is finished and you might not respond, I feel that I must:

1. Biggest bold-faced lie that I have ever heard on this site: 9:29 says People of the Book: Please clarify, the Arabic can be found here:

http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

Nowhere, and I repeat, nowhere in that entire chapter is the phrase Ahl al-Kitaab mentioned.

I have to give you credit for chutzpah. Some people will not check the source and will actually believe you that 9:29 does not refer to the People of the Book. But in fact it says in full:

قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ

Do you see what I see? الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَاب? What "Book" were they given, "American"? Whoops! But don't believe me. Let's see how the Islamic translators render the operative phrase in 9:29:

ALI: "People of the Book"
PICKTHALL: "those who have been given the Scripture"
SHAKIR: "those who have been given the Book"
DARYABADI: "those who have been given the Book"
HILALI-KHAN: "People of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)"
FAKHRY: "People of the Book"

These are all Muslim translators, and there are plenty more, and they all agree that 9:29 refers to the People of the Book. And then you come in here and accuse me of a "bald-faced lie" for saying what all these Muslim translators, and many other Muslim translators and commentators, have said.

The sheer audacity of your dishonesty is, quite simply, breathtaking. But it is a phenomenon I have encountered before, as with the chap who insisted that the gates of ijtihad are not closed, even after I quoted him a raft of Islamic authorities saying that they were indeed closed. I know the game now: if I say something, it's wrong. And you don't care what kind of absurdities you tie yourself up in so as to appear to establish this.

One more thing:

Also, can you please state the Islamic source who cites People of the Book in the group of those who reject faith, with the Arabic citation. I have yet to read it from ANY Islamic source. These are two different distinctions and most books go into extreme detail discussing it, even placing Buddhists and Hindus into Ahl al Kitaab frequently. You will spin this as a semantic difference, but if you know anything about Islam then you should understand that it is far more than a semantic issue.

Sure. I've discussed the inclusion of Hindus and Buddhists in the Ahl al kitab at some length in other contexts. But the insistence that Islam doesn't classify the People of the Book, or Christians at least, as kuffar seems to fly in the face of Qur'an 5:17:

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَآلُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا وَلِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِير

Do you see that? كَفَرَ? I do.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Mr. "Episcopalian", Game, Set, Match. Mr. Spencer won this battle.

Mr. Spencer,

Thank you for ignoring the rest of my comments (you didn't have anything to say about those---especially that thing about phrases coming down together, whoops) and focus in on one thing, it makes it easier for me.

Welp, try reading past 5:17 or outside of a single verse and you will read it in context. Also, try Sheikh Ali Goma's (the head of al Azhar):

????? ???? ??? ???????.

It provides a very telling explanation of the very issue that you are talking about, so I'll wait for you to read it. (The Arabic might not come out, but it always does when you type it, I must be doing something wrong).

9:29: I stand corrected, however you're still wrong:
"and those who do not believe in the religion of truth from those given the book (People of the Book, sure, let's go with that)."
--To my understanding, as well of the understanding of most Islamic scholars, that phrase has actually EXEMPTED the majority of Christians and Jews (and Hindus and Buddhists, you don't provide any explanation, just youre usual "others.....but not here" line) (and links to arguments with others doesn't prove your point, you actually have to answer the questions.)

Also, you never responded to the actual remainder of the sura, which in context this phrase means something completely different than what you are explaining it to be, like those from the "People of the Book"(see, aren't you happy?). This is also the opinion of most scholars (but you should already know that):

The verse of the sword refers to a RESPONSE specifically to those who constantly attacked, and continued to attack Mohammed and his followers in the initial Islamic periods. The modern relevance is debated, but has never been put beyond a defensive response. You have never actually answered this claim clearly, just moved on to something else, so I would like this clarified. Your usual response is to move to Zarqawi, and then drift off into a diatribe about terrorism against Israel, so I would like to keep you on topic for this one.

Just doing some thinking...
I am very pleased that you are able to get me on one phrase, without actually responding to the other 99% of the argument. Thanks as always.

"American":

I was out all day yesterday, and came in late. Saw your fact-free post, and that one jumped out at me, so I thought I'd answer it even though it was late. How you maintain your posture of arrogance and superior knowledge while retailing flagrant falsehoods is astounding to me, but just to show anyone who may care that there is nothing whatsoever behind this posture, I'll answer the rest now.

I would like to know what books state that my view is not a majority view, and what scholars have placed Christians and Jews collectively in Kuffar. Qutb (if you actually read his stuff) was referring specifically to those secular and the modernity of Christianity in America as who have strayed from their own religious laws. On the other hand, his other writings after his return to Egypt from his stay in Colorado speak very highly of the Copts and other Christian groups living in Egypt as much closer to the true faith (Deen al Haq as in 9:29) than those in America.

It appears you are contending that Qutb believed Muslims should fight only against secular modernized Christians, not cowed and persecuted minority Christians. This is (of course) false, as many things in Qutb's writings show. In explaining 9:29 in Fi Zilal al-Qur'an, he says:

The Jews claim that Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians assert that Christ is His son. These claims echo similar ones made by pagans of former times. Hence, they are to be treated on the same basis as people who do not believe in God and the Last Day....A person who claims that Ezra or Jesus is the son of God cannot be described as a believer in God....they should pay the tribute, or the submission tax, with a willing hand and...they should be utterly subdued. -- Vol. 8, pp. 120-122

Read the whole passage. Did he say Muslims should fight against and subdue Christians? Yes. Did he exempt the Copts? No. He said Christians who believe Jesus is the Son of God should be fought. Do Copts believe Jesus is the Son of God? Yes.

Back to you:

The site mentioned provided the following explanation to 9:29 (the largest Islamic resource site on the internet, not a majority view, I suppose: This, to my mind, is the key-phrase of the above ordinance. The term "apostle" is obviously used here in its generic sense and applies to all the prophets on whose teachings the beliefs of the Jews and the Christians are supposed to be based - in particular, to Moses and (in the case of the Christians) to Jesus as well (Manar X, 333 and 337). Since, earlier in this sentence, the people alluded to are accused of so grave a sin as wilfully refusing to believe in God and the Last Day (i.e., in life after death and man's individual responsibility for his doings on earth), it is inconceivable that they should subsequently be blamed for comparatively minor offences against their religious law: consequently, the stress on their "not forbidding that which God and His apostle have forbidden" must refer to something which is as grave, or almost as grave, as disbelief in God. In the context of an ordinance enjoining war against them. this "something" can mean only one thing-namely, unprovoked aggression: for it is this that has been forbidden by God through all the apostles who were entrusted with conveying His message to man. Thus, the above verse must be understood as a call to the believers to fight against such-and only such-of the nominal followers of earlier revelation as deny their own professed beliefs by committing aggression against the followers of the Qur'an (cf. Manar X, 338).(Quran Ref: 9:29 )

That's nice, although if you hold this view, you still have no response to Osama et al when they claim that non-Muslim Americans have committed "aggression against the followers of the Qur'an." And what is that "aggression," anyway? Qutb in the long explanation I quoted partially above (do read the whole thing), says that "Aggression has been committed in the first place, against God's Lordship of the universe and against other human beings who are forced to submit to deities other than God" (p. 121). "Aggression," then, is rebelling against God and submission to deities other than God: he sees the aggression simply as not believing in Islam. That view, unfortunately, is not incompatible with your allegedly moderate commentator's view above.

Also, your explanation is really cute. 9:29 and 9:28 were revealled together, meaning that the intended meanings are similar. Whoops, this is getting dangerous!

Indeed. I think it's clear that mushrikun in 9:28 includes the People of the Book in 9:29. I was just noting how often you'll find Islamic apologists saying that mushrikun doesn't include the People of the Book. Actually, I think the text leads one to believe it does. But do I then accept your contention that these verses say that Muslims should only fight against those who fought Muhammad so long ago? I will accept this when universalizing interpretations like Qutb's above are no longer believed by Muslims.

Again, you site the same sources that you do every day without really going into details. I explained Qutb above, and you still go on about that Saudi Chief Justice and the Pakistani general (two books that were written as political opinions are somehow majority views of all Muslims).

You dissembled about Qutb above, you didn't explain him. As for the other two, please provide a quote as to when I ever said this was a "majority view of all Muslims" -- a self-contradictory phrase in any case? I have never said it was either a majority view or that all Muslims held it. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. I have said it is a mainstream view, and that jihadists can use it and similar material to convince Muslims of the rightness of their views. Are they not doing this all over the world today?

This sounds like deja vu because we discussed Ishaq earlier, that you leave out steps in Ishaq's process:

1. They attack/take your land/kill you/kick you out of town
2. You do nothing
3. They attack some more/ take some more/ kill some more
4. You Defend yourself
5. They attack some more/ take some more/ kill some more
6. You can have offensive warfare

Steps 2, 4, and 6 sound great by themselves, but they need to be seen in context, which is something that Ibn Ishaq discusses in some detail, but you ignore.

Actually, I don't ignore it at all. I discuss it at some length in The Truth About Muhammad.

This is getting long, so I won't go into too much detail about Sura 4 discussion, but I would like to call your attention to the discussion about being revealed together, just to hammer it in.

Everybody else, Muslim countries do offer a great deal of equal rights to non-Muslims. Is it completely equal, no. It isn't completely equal in the West. In my hometown, a group of 30 Muslims desired to build a mosque and the city gave them the runaround to the point that they gave up. In London, Muslims wanted to legitimately, legally build a mosque in I believe it was central London (I know nothing about Britain, so I'm not sure). It was to be the largest mosque in the West. However, because of something called "community disagreement" aka bullying and hatemongering and racism (just a switch of words...it's an "honor killing" in the Middle East but a "crime of passion" in the US, no difference, right?) it was stopped.

Also, here come the annoying naskh remarks. You guys read one sentence and then run home with it. Naskh has been discussed and used very specifically, and there are countless books that suggest that naskh is a junk science altogether. I have never heard the over-arching argument that "a later chapter overrides anything written before it." That's ignorance in a box.

Be it duly noted that you have accused Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, inter alia, of "ignorance in a box." Ibn Kathir quotes Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim to establish that the Verse of the Sword “abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term.” He adds from another authority: “No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah was revealed.” Ibn Juzayy agrees that one of this verse’s functions is “abrogating every peace treaty in the Qur’an.”

You're Saudi story is cute, but there is 0 (zero/goose egg) evidence linking that man's personal preferences to those of Islam. If you really think about it, he was totally off after 4 without any discussion. (The four wives thing is for another discussion, with the conditions, societal discussions, etc. that have applied in mainstream Islam and the practice's applications over 1400 years---in many cases very different from the Quranic verse, but that would hurt your "the Quran and Sunnah have direct modern consequences" argument, so I won't go there).

Yeah, no one takes Qur'an and Sunnah seriously today, and they have no direct modern consequences. Now get up and go down the street and tell the local imam that. In the meantime, the Saudi story was about the ease of talaq. If that isn't about Islam, I don't know what it's about. Nowhere else but a country in which Islamic divorce laws are in place would this man have been able to do this. Anyway, you were insinuating above that I had fabricated the story, so I gave you a link to it. That's all.

Finally, before I call it a night, I like the cute "you're a Muslim" (you said "your co-religionists") implication in the middle there and thank you to all the others for focusing your anger on accusing me of being a Muslim, as if that's a crime or something. I am a baptised and confirmed Episcopalian who attended church every Sunday and am now living in Cairo, Egypt, and attend church here (in a Muslim country--boogy boogy) without any problems, period.

Sure you are, Rick. Whatever you say. But as for the "boogy boogy," please provide some evidence that I have ever said that an Episcopalian couldn't attend church in a Muslim country. Happy hunting.

Just doing some thinking... By the way, Spencer just keeps o-pining about those Tabri quotes. Look them up yourself, I'm sure you'll find them right where I said they were. Calling a bluff is a cute way to put it, (I passed the reading comprehension class you suggested, and am inviting you to a Quranic basics class, you really need one). I am still wondering why you didn't answer the quotes I posted: (the link was just a copy of our discussion, along with your always flowery commentary and 0 refutation of the comments or references that I posted---I feel bad that I missed it and am honored that you dedicated a post to me.

Actually, I did answer them in that post. You continue to ignore the answers. And yes, I'm calling your bluff, and I'm still calling it: you said you had the Arabic Tabari. In reality, all you had was second-hand Wikipedia references. So produce the quotes, and you'll have proven me wrong just by doing so. Go ahead.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

"American":

Thank you for ignoring the rest of my comments (you didn't have anything to say about those---especially that thing about phrases coming down together, whoops) and focus in on one thing, it makes it easier for me.

Whoops indeed. I am not worried about the phrases coming down together, if you mean 9:28 and 9:29. I am worried about Muslims who take them to mean that the Christians who are so aggressive as to reject Islam must be fought, a la Qutb's explanation above.

Welp, try reading past 5:17 or outside of a single verse and you will read it in context. Also, try Sheikh Ali Goma's (the head of al Azhar):

????? ???? ??? ???????.

It provides a very telling explanation of the very issue that you are talking about, so I'll wait for you to read it. (The Arabic might not come out, but it always does when you type it, I must be doing something wrong).

Oh, you're doing plenty wrong. It's funny that you're in Cairo and all and you can't write Arabic here. But anyway, Ali Gomaa is not the head of al-Azhar. That would be Tantawi. Ali Gomaa is the Mufti of Egypt. One would think, you being right there and all, that you could keep all that straight.

9:29: I stand corrected, however you're still wrong: "and those who do not believe in the religion of truth from those given the book (People of the Book, sure, let's go with that)." --To my understanding, as well of the understanding of most Islamic scholars, that phrase has actually EXEMPTED the majority of Christians and Jews (and Hindus and Buddhists, you don't provide any explanation, just youre usual "others.....but not here" line) (and links to arguments with others doesn't prove your point, you actually have to answer the questions.)

Give an example, please of the "most Islamic scholars" who exempt most Jews and Christians from being fought on the basis of 9:29. In reality, the only Jews and Christians who are exempted in your tafsir above are those who are not "aggressive" toward the Muslims, which by Qutb's explanation would mean those who don't believe anything different from what Islam teaches.

Also, you never responded to the actual remainder of the sura, which in context this phrase means something completely different than what you are explaining it to be, like those from the "People of the Book"(see, aren't you happy?). This is also the opinion of most scholars (but you should already know that):

The verse of the sword refers to a RESPONSE specifically to those who constantly attacked, and continued to attack Mohammed and his followers in the initial Islamic periods. The modern relevance is debated, but has never been put beyond a defensive response. You have never actually answered this claim clearly, just moved on to something else, so I would like this clarified. Your usual response is to move to Zarqawi, and then drift off into a diatribe about terrorism against Israel, so I would like to keep you on topic for this one.

Can you give me an example of when in the course of explaining sura 9 I have moved to Zarqawi and then drifted off into a "diatribe about terrorism against Israel"? I'd love to see it. In the meantime, I answered this above, and in many other places, including my weekly Qur'an blog when covering 2:190-193: unbelief is considered (as by Qutb above) "aggression" against God, and so the Islamic jihad response is ipso facto defensive. I've also discussed the fard kifayah/fard ayn distinction at some length, as well as the offensive/defensive jihad distinction many times -- one example is here:

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=27690

Nary a thing in there about Zarqawi or Israel.

Just doing some thinking... I am very pleased that you are able to get me on one phrase, without actually responding to the other 99% of the argument. Thanks as always.

Your supercilious mendacity is continually astounding to me. You have done nothing but pile up untruths, about virtually everything you have asserted, and they have been shown to be untruths, and yet you maintain your posture of superior knowledge and superior integrity. Have you ever considered a career in politics?

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Let's start at the beginning: your alliteration in personal attacks is really funny, also your lack of focus on what I am actually saying:

1.not cowed and persecuted minority Christians. (love this one, where did that come from? Do I smell a political sting? 0 Evidence that this has anything to do with the issue at hand. What about the Vatican? They aren't secular, and they aren't cowed and persecuted, so your statement seems to have come from the dark recesses of Bat Ye'or (I think I spelled her name wrong).

2. Qutb wrote that pamphlet in prison after being jailed for the attempted assassination of Nasser, who he blamed on a conspiracy between Israel and Christian clergy working in Egypt (this was evidenced by him in the expulsion of many jews in 1954-56 as well as the re-organization of the Coptic church carried out at that time. Context, context. The play works for your readers, but not me, and also not quite a few of the modern scholars: Hamza Yusuf, Sudais (Mecca-Holy Mosque) as well as Ali Goma, but please ignore.
Also, I love the "many of his writings..." but you only manage to produce one. Again, as always, lovely.

3. You are correct. You have never said that a majority of Muslims view that to be true. You have never really said anything of substance regarding Muslim belief, only what "dude 1" and "dude 2" have said, leaving it completely out of modern discourse/historical and societal context/relevance/belief. In your mind, simply because it was written by a Muslim means that it has something to do with Islamic belief and that Muslims will follow it and base something you don't like upon it.

4. Nice dodge on that 9:28 and 4:29 (was that the right verse?). Just "well...." and a good flip-flop paragraph always does it justice. Also, who judges when things are no longer believed? You still state that Muslims today are citing Ibn Katheer, while I have never in the modern day heard such citations, other than in historical texts talking about him specifically. Like al-Qaeda seriously sits around reading and thinking "what did Ibn Katheer think about this situation 800 years ago?"

5. Also, loving that "it's in the book" thing. The book is unavailable here in Cairo (to my knowledge) so I am unable to read it. Could you provide the text that you are referring to, but it's not necessary for it all(it's got to be in a Word file somewhere).

6. The Saudi. Firstly, you are assuming that Islamic divorce laws are actually in place there, which they are not according to a vast majority of scholars. Secondly, in Islam, divorce is not looked highly upon, although it is permitted. Most Islamic countries put some barriers to divorce. Western countries, like the United States, have the easiest paths to divorce in the world (barring the presence of minor children, assets.)

Ultimately, you can provide 0 evidence that the man, of Afghanis for that matter, feel justified because of Islam, or that Islam has anything to do with what he is doing (if he had done it in the United States, but one at a time with no kids, he would have no problems whatsoever, and surely you don't believe that Islamic divorce laws are in place there?) The following story discusses the divorce rate in Saudi Arabia (in 2006 at 20 percent) compared with Western countries, and we'll see how well "Islam" is applied:

http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=7&id=6238

Saudi Arabia (your crack-the-whip Islamic country): 20%
United States: 40-50 %

Others: See
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
(Turkey is the first "Islamic" country on the list, however there are other factors involved.)

As soon as I start pushing you on details you jump to "well, it really doesn't matter because X is what happens in the real world" so I'm jumping a step here.

No, I am not calling Ibn Kathir or Ibn Juzayy igrnorance in a box. They said exactly what I stated, that 9:29 erased MOHAMMED's treaties with al-mushrikun. Not anything else other than Mohammed specifically, and they actually mention that in the Arabic. I am calling the persont that said that simply because one chapter came after another means that naskh applies. You have actually just proven my point, that naskh is very specifically applied to time and context, thank you.

The "finally" didn't apply to you, but to others who constantly instist that I am a Muslim living either in Dearborn, Michigan or the Middle East (the latter part is currently correct, I prefer on learning things about Islam/Arabic from the source, rather than hiding from it, pretending that they'll get me.) You have never said that "Episcopalians" have trouble attending church in a Muslim country, touche. Episcopalians are Christians, and a glance at even the last month will reveal quite a few stories stating how Christians fear for their lives living in Muslim countries. It was also intended for others who were charging that non-Muslims have 0 rights under "Muslim" governments.

You keep reiterating that Tabari quote thingy. Keep calling, I'll keep listening, make up whatever result you want. I have it, I don't have it, you already stated that it doesn't make any difference and the point is that Muslims are using it anyway (and then you start that Afghani thing, in which you still have 0/zero evidence that Afghanis did it because of Islam and/or feel justified because of Islam, etc.)

Just doing some thinking...
How's that Goma book going? Doesn't fit your interpretations, I know, but stuff like that hurts sometimes.

I also like how Hugh can't defend himself and you had to step in. I do agree, however. Hugh has a nasty temper and falls into pro-Israeli chants whenever he gets in a corner. A friend of mine and I have a long running bet that you and him are actually the same person. Please dedicate a paragraph to that and you can skip responding to another part, you like to do that.

Wow, that was pretty incoherent. I have to give "An American" credit, though, at least for responding, after having so many of his 'facts' thoroughly debunked. Most people would be too embarrassed to even show their face again. Before this last post, I was really expecting him to disappear for a few months like he did the first time that Robert called him out to produce the Arabic quotes.

An American's parents must be so proud.

An American's parents must be so proud.

Aren't muslims supposed to OBEY their parents?

What a liar.

"An American":

Let's start at the beginning: your alliteration in personal attacks is really funny, also your lack of focus on what I am actually saying:

I haven't engaged in any personal attacks at all. I have noted your dishonesty, as in when you said that 9:29 didn't refer to the People of the Book. When you say things like that, you have to face the fact that some people may check on what you're saying, and find it to be false. I was assuming you had actually looked at the verse before writing about what it said (and claiming I was lying about it). But maybe you didn't.

1.not cowed and persecuted minority Christians. (love this one, where did that come from? Do I smell a political sting? 0 Evidence that this has anything to do with the issue at hand. What about the Vatican? They aren't secular, and they aren't cowed and persecuted, so your statement seems to have come from the dark recesses of Bat Ye'or (I think I spelled her name wrong).

I was referring to the Copts, since you claimed falsely that Qutb exempted the Copts from Christians against whom Muslims must wage war. Are you saying the Copts aren't cowed and persecuted? Perhaps you should open your eyes there in Cairo, or search Dhimmi Watch for "Copts" and see what you turn up.

2. Qutb wrote that pamphlet in prison after being jailed for the attempted assassination of Nasser, who he blamed on a conspiracy between Israel and Christian clergy working in Egypt (this was evidenced by him in the expulsion of many jews in 1954-56 as well as the re-organization of the Coptic church carried out at that time. Context, context. The play works for your readers, but not me, and also not quite a few of the modern scholars: Hamza Yusuf, Sudais (Mecca-Holy Mosque) as well as Ali Goma, but please ignore.

Pamphlet? Sir, Fi Zilal al-Qur'an is a multi-volume commentary on the Qur'an. My edition is 18 volumes so far, and it hasn't all been published yet (in this edition, mind you -- the whole thing is readily available). Another edition runs to 30 volumes. Some pamphlet!

As for Hamza Yusuf, Al-Sudais (whom I have quoted many times) and Ali Gomaa, please provide quotations from their writings that show them saying what you're claiming they say. After your record in this exchange, and my "bald-faced lie" about 9:29 and such, pardon me if I don't entirely trust your characterization of what they say that this point.

Also, I love the "many of his writings..." but you only manage to produce one. Again, as always, lovely.

Oh, you want more? Sure. Here's from Milestones: "The actions of the Jews and Christians was considered by God in the same category of Shirk as that of the Christians' making Jesus into the Son of God and worshipping him. The latter is a rebellion against the Oneness of God...All Jewish and Christian societies today are also jahili societies....Either Islam will remain, or Jahiliyyah: Islam cannot accept or agree to a situation which is half-Islam and half-Jahiliyyah....Command belongs to God, or otherwise to Jahiliyyah; God's Shari'ah will prevail, or else people's desires."

He makes the same argument in a different way in Social Justice in Islam. And in Islam and Universal Peace: "Islam commands Muslims to strive against [I believe you might know the Arabic for that] those who fail to apply the laws revealed by God..." Since Christian societies are jahiliyya, according to him, that would include them as well.

3. You are correct. You have never said that a majority of Muslims view that to be true. You have never really said anything of substance regarding Muslim belief, only what "dude 1" and "dude 2" have said, leaving it completely out of modern discourse/historical and societal context/relevance/belief. In your mind, simply because it was written by a Muslim means that it has something to do with Islamic belief and that Muslims will follow it and base something you don't like upon it.

Yeah, I made up all that about Zarqawi invoking Badr after beheading Nick Berg. And about Mukhlas Imran invoking Muhammad's 77 battles after the Bali bombings. And about an-Nashami invoking Muhammad's commands about Arabia after killing Christians in Khobar in 2004. Etc. etc. etc.

4. Nice dodge on that 9:28 and 4:29 (was that the right verse?).

No, 9:29. And it's amusing that you, of all people, would characterize anything as a dodge after how you have behaved in this exchange.

Just "well...." and a good flip-flop paragraph always does it justice. Also, who judges when things are no longer believed? You still state that Muslims today are citing Ibn Katheer, while I have never in the modern day heard such citations, other than in historical texts talking about him specifically. Like al-Qaeda seriously sits around reading and thinking "what did Ibn Katheer think about this situation 800 years ago?"

Well, let's see. Here's a Muslim page containing several links to him:

http://www.convertstoislam.org/resources/Quran_Koran_search_links_articles.htm

And here's another:

http://www.islamic-knowledge.com/Tafseer.htm

And another:

http://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/09/30/ibn-katheer-on-the-attributes-of-allah/

Get the picture? I've been busy planting articles in Muslim publications in which Ibn Kathir is referred to, eh?

5. Also, loving that "it's in the book" thing. The book is unavailable here in Cairo (to my knowledge) so I am unable to read it. Could you provide the text that you are referring to, but it's not necessary for it all(it's got to be in a Word file somewhere).

I suppose here you're referring to my book? Sure. On page 77 of The Truth About Muhammad, I quote Ibn Ishaq saying that the Quraysh had "persecuted" and "ill treated" and "exiled" the Muslims -- details you accuse me of not mentioning.

6. The Saudi. Firstly, you are assuming that Islamic divorce laws are actually in place there, which they are not according to a vast majority of scholars.

Once again: citations, please.

Secondly, in Islam, divorce is not looked highly upon, although it is permitted. Most Islamic countries put some barriers to divorce. Western countries, like the United States, have the easiest paths to divorce in the world (barring the presence of minor children, assets.)

Ultimately, you can provide 0 evidence that the man, of Afghanis for that matter, feel justified because of Islam, or that Islam has anything to do with what he is doing (if he had done it in the United States, but one at a time with no kids, he would have no problems whatsoever, and surely you don't believe that Islamic divorce laws are in place there?) The following story discusses the divorce rate in Saudi Arabia (in 2006 at 20 percent) compared with Western countries, and we'll see how well "Islam" is applied:

http://www.asharq-e.com/news.asp?section=7&id=6238

Saudi Arabia (your crack-the-whip Islamic country): 20%
United States: 40-50 %

Others: See
http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
(Turkey is the first "Islamic" country on the list, however there are other factors involved.)

Indeed there are. Your argument here is that easy divorce is available in the U.S. also (although not quite so easy, and without the commodification of women), so therefore you can't say this Saudi was influenced by Islamic law. Ultimately your assertion is unprovable unless you produce and interview the Saudi, but are you actually saying that Islamic marriage law has no significant influence on the mores of people in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan? I don't think such a bizarre assertion would hold up to more than 30 seconds of scrutiny of the legal codes and culture of either place.

As soon as I start pushing you on details you jump to "well, it really doesn't matter because X is what happens in the real world" so I'm jumping a step here.

Actually, I'm the one who has given you point after point of for what I'm saying, while all you have done is make vague and unsupported assertions
and false statements. I am pointing this out because your method of argumentation is very clever: you may by your superciliousness and arrogance, and unsupported claims to superior knowledge, actually convince some people that you know what you're talking about, when actually you have provided no evidence of this at all.

No, I am not calling Ibn Kathir or Ibn Juzayy igrnorance in a box. They said exactly what I stated, that 9:29 erased MOHAMMED's treaties with al-mushrikun. Not anything else other than Mohammed specifically, and they actually mention that in the Arabic.

Quote them, please. Actually, they don't do this. In reality, Ibn Kathir does just the opposite, and generalizes from Muhammad's case: "Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: 'No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed.'" Not just with any treaty with Muhammad, but any treaty at all.

I am calling the persont that said that simply because one chapter came after another means that naskh applies. You have actually just proven my point, that naskh is very specifically applied to time and context, thank you.

The "finally" didn't apply to you, but to others who constantly instist that I am a Muslim living either in Dearborn, Michigan or the Middle East (the latter part is currently correct, I prefer on learning things about Islam/Arabic from the source, rather than hiding from it, pretending that they'll get me.) You have never said that "Episcopalians" have trouble attending church in a Muslim country, touche. Episcopalians are Christians, and a glance at even the last month will reveal quite a few stories stating how Christians fear for their lives living in Muslim countries. It was also intended for others who were charging that non-Muslims have 0 rights under "Muslim" governments.

Are you saying that Copts have not faced persecution in Egypt? Or that Christians have not faced persecution from Muslims elsewhere, notably in Iraq, Indonesia, and Nigeria? I have never generalized from these incidents to say no Christians live safely in Muslim lands. If you think I have, produce the quote.

You keep reiterating that Tabari quote thingy. Keep calling, I'll keep listening, make up whatever result you want. I have it, I don't have it, you already stated that it doesn't make any difference and the point is that Muslims are using it anyway (and then you start that Afghani thing, in which you still have 0/zero evidence that Afghanis did it because of Islam and/or feel justified because of Islam, etc.)

You said you had the book. If you do, why not just produce the quotes?

Just doing some thinking... How's that Goma book going? Doesn't fit your interpretations, I know, but stuff like that hurts sometimes.

What Gomaa book? (You keep misspelling his name.) All you provided above was a bunch of question marks. You mind actually specifying which book you mean?

I also like how Hugh can't defend himself and you had to step in. I do agree, however. Hugh has a nasty temper and falls into pro-Israeli chants whenever he gets in a corner. A friend of mine and I have a long running bet that you and him are actually the same person. Please dedicate a paragraph to that and you can skip responding to another part, you like to do that.

Yeah, we're the same guy, all right. It is nice of you to say so, since that would involve my mastering two utterly different writing styles and outlooks on many things, and I didn't think you gave me that much credit. One wonders also how I managed to pull off having us both at last year's Restoration Weekend, but you know us crafty Zionists. Anyway, I don't know where Hugh is -- I wish he had weighed in, but that's his choice. In any case, since your attacks were on me, I thought I'd answer. As always, your dishonesty, when exposed, is instructive.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

I did some checking about that shooting rampage in Seattle. Found the following.

1) "Shooter at Jewish charity won't get death penalty"
Edmonton Journal. Edmonton, Alta.:Dec 21, 2006. p. A4 SEATTLE - Prosecutors said Wednesday they would not seek the death penalty against the man accused of shooting six people, one fatally, at a Jewish charity because of the suspect's long history of mental illness.

King County Prosecutor Norm Maleng said he based his decision on Naveed Haq's mental health records from the past decade, though he called the shooting one of the most serious crimes ever in Seattle.

Haq is charged with murder in the death of Pamela Waechter, 58, director of the charity, and with five counts of attempted murder in the attack at the federation's downtown offices on July 28.

---------------------
2)
The FBI is also investigating to determine if he committed a hate crime, said Frederick Gutt, a special agent in the bureau's Seattle office. Haq told an emergency dispatcher moments after the shootings that he had attacked the offices because of his anger toward Jews and the United States, according to the police and an arrest affidavit. Stephenson said Haq had suffered from mental illness for about a decade and that he took medication, including lithium, for a bipolar disorder. The shooting "was a result of a mentally ill person,"the lawyer said. "It was not a rational act at all."

Before the shooting, Haq was facing a charge of lewd conduct for allegedly exposing himself in a shopping mall near his family's home in Pasco, about 180 miles from Seattle in southeastern Washington. He has pleaded not guilty in that case. Donohoe said of the claim that Haq was mentally ill: "I don't think we've received any information about any history, so I don't think that figures in. I don't think that would play a role at this point."

Mian Haq, Haq's father, is from Pakistan. He and his wife, Nahida, had been active in the Muslim community around Pasco for three decades, friends said.

Naveed Haq is an American. He graduated in 1998 from Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y., with a degree in biology, according to university records. He attended the University of Pennsylvania's school of dentistry but dropped out "when his mental illness became a problem," Stephenson said.

"He stopped going to classes," the lawyer said. "His moods were all over the place." But Haq later enrolled at Washington State University and earned a second degree, in electrical engineering, in 2004, Stephenson said.

3) "Family sends apology letters to Jewish groups after Seattle killing"
The Globe and Mail. Toronto, Ont.: Aug 1, 2006. pg. A.10
The parents of a Muslim man accused of shooting to death a woman and wounding five other people at a Jewish non-profit organization wrote letters to Jewish groups yesterday saying "they don't want this to be seen as anything but the act of an ill person," a lawyer for the family said.

"It's basically telling the people that they're very sorry for the tragedy that happened, that they're praying for them," said the lawyer, Larry Stephenson. "They don't want this to be seen as creating any hatred between Jewish and Muslim people. The Haqs are very religious people."

Seattle police say the Haqs' son, Naveed Haq, 30, opened fire Friday in the offices of the Jewish Federation of Greater Seattle. NYT

Credit: New York Times

------------
4) I have been unable to find any published article which would indicate that the shooter "converted" to Christianity.

I just took a look. Very funny. The idea that you and I are one. The briefest of glances at my postings, and yours, would show anyone sensitive to style that we couldn't possibly be the same person. As for content, I lack a certain kind of mental stamina and patience to go through the Qur'an and Hadith and Sira and all the commentators again and again, and I certainly wouldn't experience the kind of delight that I saw on Robert's face when he received from a friend another few volumes of Tabari, the kind of face that I might put on if I received a book of verse or an art book, say a nice big one on Sienese paintings (presents cheerfully accepted).

No one in his right mind, with even the most minimal sensitivity to language, could confuse Robert's straightforward lucidity, rooted in the texts, for my curlicues, rooted in everything else (a nice, though entirely accidental, division of labor) or, of course, vice-versa. It is true, however, that we agree in many ways about Islam, though Robert is a dab hand with the texts and other things, including Tarbaby Iraq and other mistakes in policy, interest me more. But if we think more or less alike on this matter (though Robert is a devout Christian and I an equally devout atheist; he likes Bob Dylan and I prefer songs of the 1920s-1930s-1940s; he says tomato and I say tomahto, and so on), we are joined by tens or hundreds of thousands or even millions or tens of millions of others who have educated themselves about Islam. And also in agreement are all kinds of ex-Muslims, some of them determined freethinkers (Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Ibn Warraq, Ali Sina), some undeclared (Wafa Sultan), some Christians (Nonie Darwish, Walid Shoebat), and many others, possibly not as well known, or less publiclly eloquent people who through no fault of their own, were born into, and raised up within, Islam, and who have chosen to jettison it.

For that matter, even some who continue to call themselves Muslims, such as Fouad Ajami and Kanan Makiya and the great,now-under-siege Egyptian long resident in Italy, Magdi Allam, may call themselves "cultural Muslims" or wish, out of filial piety (the remembrance of pious, yet meek-and-mild Muslim parents who somehow manged to wilfully ignore the full texts, the full meaning and therefore the full permanent potential menace,of Islam) or civilizational embarrassment, or even a residual defensiveness, reality are Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only Muslims.

And of course, Robert has a beard, and I, a mere stripling, well -- je suis imberbe.

One more thing. Those who think that Robert and Hugh are the same person are, unwittingly, flattering both of us.

Robert --

By the way, if it turns out that we are in fact the same person, and I have just been kept in the dark about it all these years -- boy, am I easy to fool -- could I please have a big boost in my salary? I need soon, you see, to go and break the bank in Monte Carlo.

CALLING MR. BOB CRANE:

Islam teaches first degree murder of the "unbelievers" in Surah 9.5 and many other places.

Muslims believe this teaching and enthusiastically carry it out throughout the world as they have been taught to via the Kuran's vicious verse.

Over the centuries Islam's "religious" practice of committing mass murder has become institutionalized: it is labeled "terrorism" by the western democracies. Hundreds of millions of innocent people have murdered by Islam's terrorism over the centuries.

That's all that needs to be wrong with Islam (everything).

Slaughter well Oh, ye child of Satan!

Re: online identification, and for whatever it is worth.

An annoying little pest of a poster by name of "Progressive" also once claimed to be An American living in Cairo. The first time I saw a Progressive post was after An American disappeared and refused to reply to Robert's challenge re: Aisha. Progressive has not been here for a while and...viola.... An American shows up again.

"Just doing some thinking".

Funny isn't it? "An American" is here to tell us how wrong we are fro defending ourselves against Islam.

His soap box is in the wrong location.

Perhaps climbing to the top of one of those minerets that towers over all things so unislamic and preaching out to his bretheren of how they error so unislamicly the way of allah.

Of course i guess i can understand the simplicity of going along with those who error in the verses of the Koran and kill and rape and molest.It too says in the verses deemed to be factual and dutiful as worshiped by the "errornous muslims" that people like an american will be slaughtered and thought worse than any infedel or anyother lowly vermon.

If we unknowledgeable non muslims are incorrect in our thoughts and understandings of islam then perhaps we should be left to stew in our errornous juices.what harm could we cause such a greatness as islam?

The pious and correct muslims time would be better spent on those who error,not aid and give comfort as is the case.For isn't it they who harm Islam and the greatness of islam?

This simple matter and truth is never answerable for any muslim ,but wait till the next failure of some "hero or martyr or lion" and then we can hear how unislamic those fools were.

Ahhhh the music to the infedels ears is when the muslims victimhood arises after being caught red handed yet again.The worlds tiniest violins come out and the symphonys and choirs join in.

It must truly be hard to be a muslim this day and age.So i am told by the skipping record.

An american all the question you posed to Robert and Hugh and the room at large are the very questions you need answered from your own and within.

What we think can only and obviously make a difference to us,whom we are most concerned about first and foremost.

The free world has given islam what islam gives no other.The return has been condemnation and hatred.

Mr. american we do not need islam at all. we allowed it because muslims needed it.Is it our fault that it teaches that you cannot speak out against those who use it for treachory.

Mr. american you error in a horendous way by not working with those who could help you recalim your "hijacked religion".

Therefore what ever happens will be the fault of yourself and the people like you.

The word is out mr. american and we know what islam fears.We know what kills islam.

An American,

Spencer has demolished your arguments, and so you simply leave?!? If you're right, you should have better ammo than that!

He has shown that the ideas are there, they are supported by mainstream Islamic authorities, they do in fact influence current events, and that OBL and other terrorists justify their actions and recruit new terrorists using the Koran. And he has done it over and over with good humor and impeccable scholarship.

If you show your face around here again, you had better produce the Arabic quotes you claim to have in your possession, or nobody here has any reason to believe anything else you say.

If you did just look up stuff on Wikipedia, just admit it, okay? Is that so hard?

Just doing some bluff-calling...

An American:

After reading your first posting it was obvious to me and to many readers here that you are a fraud.
I am an American, Born in the Constitution State, a real Yankee Doodle Dandy. Something you know nothing about. Married a girl from the town known as" the birth place of freedom and democracy "but you don't know where that is. If I told you where that is you would have to look it up. Your not an authentic true Red White & Blue American you are a fraud.
The religion I follow teaches me not to bear false witness, but you know nothing about that. War is deceit is more in line with your thinking..think about it you liar.







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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