Fitzgerald: "Palestinians," and the need for things to be seen aright

Thx, Hugh.
Then there's the Israeli group Peace Now, which indulges in the self-deception that if only Israel were even smaller, there would be peace. Those guys are really dangerous. Condi Rice thinks like they do. It's the meeting of the moonbat minds.

Hugh,
You are an islamophobe! Cease, or the wrath of Allah will fall on you!
/sarcasm

Clearly, the Palestinians are being used as a political world in this world wide jihad against Dar Al Harb. What is interesting is that not even their own Islamic brothers are willing to have them migrate in their borders. YET, here in the West we acept islamo-nazis by the hundred thousands, a move that we (or our offspring) will greatly regreat.

Jewdog
some Israelis are their own worst enemy.Olmert is one of them.

Just got this. The Israelis are blockading Gaza so now more people will become extremists.

Always blame Israel. Never the others. They never do anything wrong.
No one would dare to say the pallies brought this on themselves.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/israeli-blockade-strangling-gaza/2007/07/06/1183351458755.html

I long ago decided the Jews were suicidal, I did believe that Israel had the will to survive. My first part was correct, I wonder if Israel has the will to survive any longer. They choose weak leaders in hopes of peace and they only enjoy more aggressive attacks.

I once thought the west had the will to survive, after all, my country, The USA, has fought for the last century to hold tyranny at bay and has been fairly successful in spit of the best efforts of the dems and the peace at any cost crowd.

I have changed that view, the western europeans no longer have what it takes to survive as a society and I believe they will fall under the sword of the muslim tyrants and they will fight us to insure this occurs.

My country could be next as we have a large collection of fools seeking peace at any cost in my country. Only time will tell I guess.

They won't defeat us with the sword, but with our courts, as they are doing in europe and GB.

Evan

From Evan

"I have changed that view, the western europeans no longer have what it takes to survive as a society and I believe they will fall under the sword of the muslim tyrants and they will fight us to insure this occurs.

My country could be next as we have a large collection of fools seeking peace at any cost in my country. Only time will tell I guess.

They won't defeat us with the sword, but with our courts, as they are doing in europe and GB."

Evan,

Before you give up, Let these Knights of St John inspire you.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=466818&in_page_id=1770

(thank you DP111 for your post on this remarkable story)

Hugh,

I'll be teaching the history of the state of Israel next year to my high school daughter. I'm saving links to several of your posts, including this one. Can you recommend a good book on the subject of the "refugees" who left in 1948, as you say, expecting to return. What was that all about? Is it true that they could have stayed and kept their land that they make such a fuss about--their own houses and such--but just didn't want to live in a Jewish state? Did something similar happen after the 6-day war in 1967? When did the Arab states begin refusing to accept people who wanted to leave Israel-controlled territory? Was that from the very beginning? After the 1967 war, what would the right course of action have been for the people in the areas lost by (say) Jordan? Could they have simply moved into some other part of Jordan and gotten on with their lives, or would Jordan not let them, even though they were its own citizens?

I realize all of these questions show a lot of ignorance, but I was never taught clearly about any of this myself and am playing catch-up. Again, a suggestion of a good place to start reading about it wd. be appreciated.

Everybody is worried about the destruction of the Judeo-Nazi state. Chill out, you people destroyed Iraq, Afganistan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Somalia. The destruction of the Judeo-Nazi state is imminent, but not through the nuclear option as the West claims the Iranian intention is. The West, along with the Judeo-Nazi state, know full well that the only way for the Zionist regime to survive is through open violence, land robberies, and settelment of foreigners which life in the Judeo-Nazi state doens't appeal to them anymore. The myth that the Judeo-Nazi is invincible was broken last summer by a 2000-strong army that faced 40 times the manpower. The Judeo-Nazis were so scared and nervous they started bombing indiscrametaly from the air like cowards. Real man don't shoot in the dark. And that' my 2 cents.
Ex-lover of jesus and no lover of Judeo-Nazis.

progressive wrote:
"Real man don't shoot in the dark."

Real men also do not bomb women and children at schools and marketplaces. And real men do not try to turn six year old children into suicide bombers.

They won't defeat us with the sword, but with our courts, as they are doing in europe and GB.
by Evan

Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword.

We have always taken that axiom at face value. Now maybe we should add to it:

Those who live by rule of law shall die by rule of law.

We decided to take all acts of war committed against us and treat them as criminal offenses perpetrated by individuals rather than groups or states. We used our criminal laws in a manner for which they weren't written and were never intended. The only way to defeat the jihadists is by force and the only way to defeat the West is to take its laws and twist them into an unrecognizable pretzel.

Our founding fathers understood that there were times when force was required in order to preserve freedom.

"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?"

For too many people in the West, the answer is YES!

The Judeo-Nazis were so scared and nervous they started bombing indiscrametaly from the air like cowards. Real man don't shoot in the dark. And that' my 2 cents.

Progressive,

Real men don't lob missiles indiscriminately into civilian settlements from the safety of another country and then hide behind women and children when they are called to account. If Allah is on their side, they should be willing to fight like real men, in uniforms and openly.
Real men don't take reporters hostage.
Real men don't set out to kill women and children.
Real men certainly don't set out to kill caregivers.
Real men have the courage of their convictions and will say them openly without wearing scarves over their faces.

Keep saving your two cents and buy a dictionary.

Progressive finally wrote more than his usual two sentences, and what did we get...bovine fecal matter. Sick...

Lydia & Hugh...

Perhaps a thread is in order to discuss the true historical record of the so-called "Palestinian people" & expose this deceit for what it really is...nothing more than a damn lie !

There has been no "Palestinian people" for over 2,000 yrs,PERIOD.

Hugh-

Your point is legit. No one calls an Israeli Jew of Moroccan origin a Moroccan-Jewish refugee, or one from Iraq, Yemen, Iran etc., a Jewish refugee living in Israel. The Jews have too mush self-respect for that and wish to get on with their lives in Israel. The "Palestinian refugee problem" is a con game. It's Muslim Arabs pretending to be victims in an Arab-Muslim con game where they make Arabs on the West Bank and Gaza pawns. The real reason Israel cannot be accepted is because it is a sacrilege for Jews not to be Dhimmis in Dar-al-Islam.

I am old enough to remember when there was no a Palestinian people. I remember when the so-called 'Palestinian' Arabs were invented. What a stroke of genius that was. Hundreds of millions of Arabs armed to the teeth by the Soviets and screaming for Jewish blood encircle a handful of Jews on a tiny spit of land and suddenly they all become INVISIBLE and the worlds sees only a few million token Arabs who are carefully kept (by their Arab brothers) as miserable and isolated and enraged as possible.

Arafat himself was, for all purposes, an Egyptian Arab. Leila Khaled (the first female hijacker back in the 70's) wore an Arab man's traditional headscarf in her 'iconic photographs'. That image is UNTHINKABLE today. The sands of 'Palestinian Nationalism' wash away and what is left is the bedrock: Islamic Fundamentalist Jihad and Arab supremacism.

From the 70's till now the 'Palestinian' people have brought mass terror to the world, violently sabotaged every chance at having the nation they supposedly wanted and swindled the West and the U.N. out of billions and billions. Payback is common. Big time.

Progressive Dementia-

http://www.theforgottenrefugees.com/

Progressive you being a muslim what do you know what being a man really is? islamist terrorists hide among women and children as they did in Lebanon, Afganistan, etc. Israel is a strong nation with determined people, and will prove it again. Strenght is judged by restraint something a muslim would never understand, as muslims percieves themselves the "perpetual victim" and that is why islamist cannot never mature and become men.

Real men don't call the real victims in the Israeli-palestinian problem a "judeo-nazi" state.
Real men know what the truth is...like so:

http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

Real men...like David Horowitz.
;-)

They should be renamed "Philistines" That would set everything aright!

Progressive Dementia-

The truth is that if all the Jews in Israel only consisted of those who had fled Muslim tolerance in the Mideast, the issue of Dar-al-Ilsam would still be the issue. Wouldn't it, Mr. Demented progressive?

Further, when are Muslims (especially Arab Muslims, Ottoman "Empire" Muslims) going to apologize for the crimes they committed in India, in Persia, in Southeast Europe (Kosovo belongs to the Slavic Serbs), in Turkey (when are Muslim invaders getting out of Constantinople?), apologize for the crimes in Darfur, apologize for the extensive involvement of Arab Muslims in the African Negro slave trade, etc.?

Oh that's right, only British, Japanese, Manchu, Aztec, Spaniards (Pizarro would have made a good Jihad style Arab-Muslim-Imperialist-pig), Chinese, Americans ("Native Americans") must apologize. Thast's right! Only Muslims, especially Arab Muslims ("the best people") and Ottoman Muslims don't have to apologize for their crimes against "indigenous cultures", "indigenous peoples".

Islam is the engine of Arab Imperialism. Bow to Mecca, Demented Progressive. You are a flunky for yet another rationalization for Imperialism, for Arab "Manifest Destiny" Imperialism. They are all the same, Mr. Asshole "Progressive".

Muslims still will not take any responsibility for the genocide of Armenians. (BTW, Hitler noted that the world did not care what Muslim Turks did to the Armenians, and used that as the template for the "Final Solution"). Recently the Japanese apologized for making sex slaves out of so many in the occupied countries of Asia. Isn't it time for Muslims (especially the Arab and Ottoman Empire Muslims) to apologize (along with every other group) for the demented crimes Muslims have comitted in the name of Islam?

To Lydia - there's an interesting book by a Jewish Israeli, David Lozowick, called "Right to Exist" which gives quite a good overview. Also look for another Israeli historian - Moshe Gil, I forget the name of his book. Samuel Katz - "Battleground".

For background: Bat Ye'or's books - "The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam"; and also "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: Between Jihad and Dhimmitude." Another good overview: James Parkes, who saw Nazi antisemitism before a lot of other people did: he wrote a book called 'Whose Land?'. The most striking thing about Parkes' book is that - without it necessarily being his primary aim - he catalogues the inexorable process of sociological and ecological collapse which Byzantine Palestine - the land of Israel - underwent during the 1200 years of Muslim rule between the 7th century and 1917. The only period during which that process of collapse was reversed, was the interlude of the 'Crusader' kingdoms in the 11th-12th century: within the Latin kingdoms Muslim, Christian and Jewish peasants, artisans and merchants were better governed and looked after than in any of the Muslim misgovernments surrounding them.

Have fun devising a non-PC course for your kid.

Progressive, ignorance is bliss and man do you swim in it.

You are one person that the sweet sweet sound of deafening silence would be much appreciated.

Please at least go read some of those educational sugar packets you find at some restaraunts.

I’m sorry for the long post all, but this “Progressive” has finally gotten to me with their propaganda. And I just had to shred the false distortions they keep posting. So here goes.

Progressive said, “Everybody is worried about the destruction of the Judeo -Nazi State.”

Actually I’m not worried about the destruction of Israel, as long as we quit hamstring their defenses in the name of P.C. Gods of Idiocy (P.C.= Proven Crap). Second, your use of the term “the Judeo -Nazi State” is very revealing. First Israel (unlike the dictatorships the so-called “Progressive” regressive movement supports) actually has a Democratic Republic form of government. It even has Arab Mohammedan and Arab Christians in the Parliament so you can’t claim Fascist State or Apartheid State. In fact, in truth you are revealing only the common leftard position that the only “Good Jew” is one that is a Dhimmi in any form in any country. Can’t have those uppity “Evil Jooos” with self-rule and the human rights, now can we? Nice position to take “Progressive”.

Progressive said, “Chill out, you people destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palestine, and Somalia.”

Interesting assumptions lets take a look at those:

Iraq has been a basket case country ever since the collapse of Turkey’s Tyrannical Ottoman Caliphate at the end of World War I. When the British, wisely, decided to allow them to rule/ slaughter each other as they are wont to do. It has been one military junta after another, with Saddam Hussan and his sadistic clan/ brood just having been the longest lived example. The first Gulf War was started when the regions powers went begging the One World Government want to be group known as the U.N. for help with Saddam’s territorial aggression. The second Gulf War began as soon as Saddam broke the peace treaties that had ended the first. It’s that simple. As for destroying, perhaps you forgotten the misplaced “pottery barn rule” policy of Senator John Kerry that we are foolishly striving to follow. As such their Dams, Bridges, Sanitation, and Educational systems are largely intact from the invasion and in many cases improved over what Saddam Baathist régime had in place for the general populace (only the Baathist/ Socialist Elite have suffered much of a standard of living drop).

Afghanistan was a flint locked society in the early 70’s until THE SOVIET UNION invaded. We only gave arms and some instructions on how to use them. When THE SOVIET UNION left, we did too, (which is what the “Lefties” say we should do). The Taliban (a bunch of MADrassa students supported by Wahabbist from the Arabian Peninsula) came in and took over creating a Theological Tyranny from the pits of Muhammedizm. They then claimed some ancient hospitality laws when we demanded that UBL be handed over for trial after the terrorist attacks on September 11th 2001. (Strange how these hospitality laws also allow for the kidnapping of western workers and journalist followed by executions, I’m sure Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald can expound upon that.) So the refusal to hand over the Jihadist master mind UBL was considered an act of war even by the craven apologist in the U.N. and their P.C. bureaucrats in the bowels of their bunker on Turtle Bay. And again as for destroying, perhaps you forgotten the misplaced “pottery barn rule” policy of Senator John Kerry that we are foolishly striving to follow. As such their Dams, Bridges, Sanitation, and Educational systems are largely intact and in many cases improved over what Talliban Theocrat régime had in place for the general populace (again only the Taliban Theocrats have suffered much of a standard of living drop).

Lebanon was considered a jewel of the Mediterranean until Arafat and his cronies went scampering there after being driven out of Jordan. There they promptly set about starting a civil war in the name of Palestinian Jihadism, that spilled over into over sovereign states, so much for that position. We then came in by the request of the vaunted U.N. to help with “peace keeping” under President Reagan. After Hezbolla Jihadist blew up one Marine barracks with the guidance of Iran Mullacracy and we left Lebanon alone (again the same advice we always get from the “Liberals”). Even the Socialist French were attacked for preventing the Jihadist from slaughtering the Infidel Civilians of Lebanon. And again as for destroying, perhaps you forgotten the misplaced “pottery barn rule” policy of Senator John Kerry that we are foolishly striving to follow. Oh, wait… my bad… we’re not even there and haven’t been since the failed U.N. “peace keeping” mission.

Somalia was a SOVIET UNION client state. We had very little if anything to do with them until the misguided mission to rescue them from themselves and sent tons of food and troops to help. When we went to stop the slaughter of civilians in line for OUR food by local warlords. We were repaid with the notorious “Black Hawk Down” situation (it now turns out it was set up by Jihadist and their Mohammedan followers, had we known the results and responses might have been different.). So again we let them live their way (and again the mantra of the “Progressives” for the “Evil West” to leave them alone.) Again the Wahabbist from the Arabian Peninsula showed up and started taking over. This time they made a mistake, they threatened the non-western country of Ethiopia (also a previous SOVIET UNION client state, but unlike the Somalians they actually accepted the humanitarian aid sent in the ‘80s.). Ethiopia doesn’t have a fifth column like Commissar Progressive, so the Ethiopians didn’t have to wait for random bombings of their civilians to act.

Palestine was…. Ummm… let’s see. The name comes from the Roman Empire renaming the province of Judea after the Jewish uprisings of the first century to insult them, (also when the Second Temple of the Mound was destroyed, how Mohammed saw it in his “night flight” is extremely strange). The Mohammedan hadn’t even arrived on the scene until the seventh century. And they were Mohammedan first, and Arabs second, not “Palestinians”. When they had arrived they were part of the conquering Ummah of the Caliphate, not some renamed Byzantine Province. And when the Ottoman Empire took over the seat of the Caliphate. There still wasn’t a single “Palestinian” person. The whole Palestine issue was raised when the “Evil Jooos” declared independence and ended their Dhimmitude and the Jiyaz tax (the Mohammedan welfare system, make the kafur pay for your bread.). Again you are revealing only the common leftard position that the only “Good Jew” is one that is a Dhimmi in any form and in any country. Can’t have those uppity “Evil Jooos” with self-rule and the human rights, now can we? And again such a “progressive” position to take, eh “Progressive”?

Soooo… in order for you to claim we “destroyed” a State, it would first have to have truly existed as a State and second this fantasy State would have existed when the people you accuse to have created the destruction have to be around. All one has to do to realize the total fraud of this is are the demands of the Jihadist for the return of Spain also. If they want Spain back… then I want the Western and Eastern Roman Empire back… That would be the North Coast of Africa, Asia Minor, most of Europe, and most of the Middle East to the boarders of the Persian Empire and the hinterlands of Saracens (a.k.a. Arabia).

RIGHT OF RETURN OF THE BYZATINE PEOPLE NOW!!! A NON-NEGOTIABLE POSITION!!! (roflmao)

Oh, yeah almost forgot… your argument that you people allegedly destroyed this, so we get to destroy that… a rather strange postition. Didn’t know the old “Eye for an Eye” precept was a liberal concept, perhaps we should use it in examining the whole cruel and unusual punishment refrain for the western prisons system and even “Club Gitmo”.

Progressive said, “ The destruction of the Judeo-Nazi State is imminent, but not through the nuclear option as the West claims the Iranian intention is.”

I feel so reassured by this statement “Progressive”, … NOT!!
I’d like to know how, when, and with whom you got the plans of the Mullacracy of Iran? This doesn’t jive, especially when they dream of a day without Israel and the United States of America. When they keep saying there was no holocaust, but there will be soon. Again your statements have a false ring to them.

Progressive said, “The West, along with the Judeo-Nazi state, know full well that the only way for the Zionist regime to survive is through open violence, (Here are you talking about the target killing of the terrorist leaders that send others to die for Allah (the god of lunacy)?), land robberies (Are you taking about the land deeds the people of Israel bought before declaring there independence from the Ummah or the lands that the Mohammedan lost in two wars they tried to oppress the Israelis with dhimmitude?) , and settlements of foreigners (Again are you talking about the Jewish immigrants returning to Israel? And here I thought you “Progressives” liked immigrants and the other displaced peoples of the world, and believed in the right of return./ sarcasm) which life in the Judeo-Nazi state doesn’t appeal to them anymore. (It wouldn’t appeal to anyone to live next to homicidal maniacs that strap bombs to their brood to slaughter your children. Go figure that one out.)

Progressive said, “ The myth that the Judeo-Nazi is invincible was broken last summer by a 2000-strong army that faced 40 times the manpower. (Only after the constant propaganda attacks from fifth columnist like you, the MSM, and craven Euro- Diplomats that learned all they could from Gaelic warfare. A pseudo-victory declared by New York Times no longer means much, thanks to Reuters photo shopping and Jason Blair writing.) The Judeo-Nazis were so scared and nervous they started bombing indiscriminately from the air like cowards. (If indiscriminate you mean targeting rocket launchers cravenly hidden in civilian houses and terrorist cowering in women’s’ closets, yeah sure.) Real men don’t shoot in the dark. (Aye that is true, they use night vision goggles and laser guided bombs.) And that' my 2 cents. (I want my money back!!!)”

Progressive said, “Ex-lover of Jesus and no lover of Judeo-Nazis.” (From now one I dub thee “Progressive the Regressive”)

Frank...Progressive Dementia...perfect. I only wish I would have thought of it first. Too bad that adding the word 'precox', makes it too long...

duh_swami-

I think adding the word "precox" is even better. "Progressive dementia precox" makes us sound very professional and high class in our critical analysis. We want to keep our high standing at Jihad Watch, so we have to be high class and intellectual.

In response to Progressive,I finally realized what i have to do to be a man.So I'm going to stone my wife because she didn't clean the dishes,then I'll convince my kid to become a suicide bomber(real men don't have to blow themselves up as long as there are children and fools).Then I'll go to one of my infidel neighbors give them the option of joining islam,they'll probably laugh at me then I'll do what I have to do.Of course I get to keep the kid, she's only seven so maybe Ive got a year or two to marry her but all is not wasted because once again I'll have someone to do my dishes. Now if that don't make me a man.

Dumbledore's Army--Thanks _very much_ for those suggs. I'll look into getting the Katz and Lozowick. (Lozowick appears to be "Yaacov," but Amazon has the title.) Moshe Gil doesn't have one listed on modern history of Israel, just one through 1099? I'm taking it that's a year. Anyway, the book is totally and completely out of print. One copy on Amazon avail. for $300!

But the other two look very interesting.

The whole situation is such an incredible mess, particularly if the Arab states are refusing to relocate these people, as I gather they are. The obvious thing is just for Israel to rule those regions as territory captured in wars in which they were not the aggressors. Giving Gaza up was incredibly stupid. But even so, how do you rule an area filled with non-citizens who all hate you and want to destroy you? I keep thinking, "_If_ there are any people of good will among the so-called 'Palestinians,' and _if_ they realized how evil all this propaganda is, what should they do?" But probably very few satisfy those conditions, in any event.

Fitzgerald's points are well taken. Some questions I had were answered, and the same goes for Senor Doeboy's post. I don't mind a long post if it's written by an informed author.

Progressive describes himself as a "Former lover of Jesus..." I'm saddened by this closing statement and wonder if it has anything to do with the bitterness that comes through in his post.

Progressive,

Very few of the people who now call Palestinians have any historic roots in the land. The only real Palestinians are indigenous Christians, Jews, and Samaritans. In fact, the population of Ottoman Palestine was overwhelmingly Jewish and Christian. When the Ayubbid Sultans divided Jerusalem into four sections, they established one quarter of the old city as a Muslim quarter where their officials could live. There was also the Jewish Quarter and two Christian Quarters. The Muslim quarter was the smallest in population throughout its history. This means that, until two centuries ago, there were more Armenians in Jerusalem than Arabs.

Beginning in late Ottoman times, Muslims began migrating into Palestine. During the British period this accelerated as Muslim Arabs were encouraged to move in by the British colonial office. Others came as temporary guest workers looking for jobs on Christian Palestinian farms. For instance, many poor Muslims who worked for Ramallah Christians established the nearby slum of Al-Bireh. Ramallah was then 100 percent Christian so the the Muslims had to camp nearby. This was also the origin of the Muslim population in places like Safed. Yassir Arafat's family came to Palestine from Egypt around this time.

If you look up "Palestine" in an Encyclopedia Britannica from 100 years ago, it defines "Palestinian" as a Christian or Jew native to the Holy Land. At that time, Muslims were never called Palestinians but were known, correctly, as "Arabs" or "Turks".

If you read the actual text of the Balfour Declaration, it says that the British government "view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine".

Notice that the non-Jewish communities are in the plural. There is no single Palestinian people. Those non-Jews that considered themselves "Palestinian" defined their communities as Melkite, Christian Orthodox, Catholic, Samaritan, Druze, etc. The Muslims, on the other hand, saw themselves only as part of the greater Arab nation or as Syrians. It was only under Nazi influence, that Sheik Husseini, the British appointed Mufti of Al-Aqsa, and himself a Hijazi Arab, tried to co-opt Palestinian nationality as a political tool.

Hugh, that was interesting! I do think though, Mr. Sharon knew. At least I thought he knew what this is about. 2002-I prayed to God for my answer and I saw Jesus. He said, "I am King of Nations, King of Israel, King of Jews." I said, "it is Israel, the Jews." They want to destroy Israel! Kill all the Jews. I said, "it's you!" It is Jesus whom they want to destroy!
You made interesting points! I thought...made sence to me. I thought President Bush knew. Seems none of them do. How can this be?

To Lydia - it IS Yaacov Lozowick, author of 'right to exist'. So sorry I misremembered his name. Here I am with a PhD in Arts and I forgot to check my references - abject apologies.

I mentioned the Moshe Gil book because it goes into details on the first three-four centuries of the jihad conquest of Byzantine Palestine. If you're lucky you might find it in a good library. If you google 'legacy of jihad in Palestine' you'll find an article that gives you the gist of Gil's book. It's useful because it makes nonsense of any claim that the 'Arabs' (in particular Muslim Arabs) are THE 'aboriginal inhabitants' of 'Palestine'.

Before the Muslim Arabs invaded out of the blue, the land of Israel, under Rome and then under Byzantium, between AD 135 and 638 was thickly populated by hard-working and creative Christian, Jewish and Samaritan farmers, artisans, merchants and scholars. Although the Romans killed huge numbers of Jews in AD 70 and AD 135, and sent thousands into slavery (some of whom were later ransomed and managed to return) they didn't render the land Judenrein. All over the land of Israel archaeologists have found the mosaic floors of now ruined synagogues that were built between the 2nd and 6th centuries AD. Their beauty and size point to a large-ish and prosperous Jewish presence. Between the 4th and 6th centuries the Byzantine Christians in 'Palestine' persecuted the Jews, but there were still whole villages, towns, small cities, full of Jews. The Christians were not ethnically 'Arabs' - some were of Jewish background, most were ethnically Aramaean or Greco-Roman or Phoenician. They were 'Arabised' after centuries of Muslim Arab rule from 638. (I will add that Armenian Christians and a lot of Lebanese Christians settled in eretz Israel during the dying days of the Ottoman Empire - so quite a few modern Palestinian Christians descend from recent migrations).

The thing to remember, and you will see this clearly from Parkes's book and Bat Ye'or's The Dhimmi, is that Jews and non-Arab Christians preceded the Muslim Arabs, and that a Jewish presence was maintained in the land of Israel - however precariously - from the 7th through to the 19th century. That persisting Jewish community was always in contact with the Jews of the diaspora, and there was always a trickle of Jewish immigrants, scholars and pilgrims. The idea that the land was absolutely Judenrein between AD 135 and AD 1880 (when the modern Zionists turned up) is false, as is the idea that the Zionists were the first and only Jews in 2000 years to try seriously returning to the Land. Thus, for modern Palestinian Muslims to market themselves as an oppressed indigenous people, and to cast the Jews as evil alien imperial invaders, is utter nonsense.

Forgot, how could I?.. "King of Kings!"

If I understand if a non jewish girl wants to marry a jewish guy does she not first have to join a kabbutz. Till she is jewish too. I heard that anyways. Work there till how every long it takes. I suppose to protect that heritage.

Dumbledore,

The refutation of the revisionist history of that region is very important for the sake of truth. For contemporary ethical issues, though, I've seldom thought it was terribly relevant whether or not A's great-grandfather did something underhanded to B's great-grandfather. For example, it _is_ true that the Indians were driven by the U.S. government in the mid-19th century off of land they had previously had reason to regard as their own--trail of tears and all of that. It's good to know the truth, but it doesn't mean that cities built on the places in question should be returned to the Indians.

So to me what happened in the 1940's and 1960's are more relevant than the longer-ago history. I suppose to me one question is whether there is any ethical solution to the problem there. And another question is whether these people who are now lying to little kids telling them, "In 1948 the Jews stole our land" are really descended from people who *could have stayed* but didn't want to under Jewish rule. Or, to take a different example, suppose somebody is still alive on the so-called "West Bank" who was an Arab living there in the 1960's. What happened to such a person? Could he and should he have relocated elsewhere? And what can we do with all these people now, shot through and through with murderous bad-guys as their society is? I can hardly blame other countries for not wanting them, but we certainly can't either give them a state or let them overrun Israel.

Lydia-

The book you want is "From Time Immemorial," by Joan Peters. For sure. Trust me - I just read it, it is incredible. It's a little academic, but worth the slog. I've linked to the Amazon.com listing below.
From Time Immemorial

Thanks, thousandfold. I'll give it a look.

To Lydia -

Yaacov Lozowick's book. 'Right to Exist', covers the 1930s, 1940s, 1960s, etc., very well, and he addresses the various ethical questions coolly and clearly.