"The 95-page survey found that surging economic growth in many developing countries has encouraged people in these countries to express satisfaction with their personal lives, family income and national conditions." But after the Doctors Plot in Britain, and so many studies that have shown that jihad terrorists are better-educated and wealthier than their peers, I wonder how anyone can seriously maintain that "surging economic growth" will really eradicate jihadist sentiments. One wonders also how Osama bin Laden and other wealthy people (such as Zawahiri) could have been drawn to the jihad, if it is really a simple matter of economic deprivation.
So what does explain this polling data? Could be any number of things. Maybe Muslims are seeing that jihad terrorism isn't getting them anywhere, although the results, particularly from the Palestinian Authority, suggest otherwise. Maybe they're being convinced that jihadism doesn't represent authentic Islam, although there are no significant initiatives afoot to convince them of this. Maybe they have just learned to tell Western pollsters what they want to hear.
Also, the poll deals with means -- suicide bombings and other terrorist attacks -- and not ends -- the imposition of Sharia. The Turkish election shows that there is significant support for the latter, and that, after all, is what the jihadists are fighting for.
From AP, with thanks to all who sent this in:
WASHINGTON - Muslims around the world increasingly reject suicide bombings and other violence against civilians in defense of Islam, according to a new international poll dealing with how the world’s population judges their lives, countries and national institutions.A wide ranging survey of international attitudes in 47 countries by the Pew Research Center also reported that in many of the countries where support for suicide attacks has declined, there has also has been decreasing support for al-Qaida leader Osama bin-Laden.
The 95-page survey found that surging economic growth in many developing countries has encouraged people in these countries to express satisfaction with their personal lives, family income and national conditions, said Andrew Kohut, the center’s director.
“It’s a pro-globalization set of findings,” Kohut said.
Most notably, the survey finds large and growing number of Muslims in the Middle East and elsewhere rejecting Islamic extremism. Ten mainly Muslim countries were surveyed along with the Palestinian territories, as well as five African nations with large Muslim populations.
For example, the percentage of Jordanian Muslims who have confidence in bin Laden as a world leader fell 36 percentage points to 20 percent since 2003 while the proportion who say suicide bombing is sometimes or always justified dropped 20 percent points to 23 percent. Other countries where support for bin Laden declined are Lebanon, Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan and Kuwait.
The report said support for such bombings and terror tactics has dropped since 2002 in seven of the eight countries where data were available. In Lebanon, the proportion of Muslims who say suicide attacks are often or sometimes justified fell to 34 percent from 79 percent while just 9 percent of Pakistanis believe suicide bombings can be justified often or sometimes, down from 33 percent in 2002 and a high of 41 percent in 2004.
Palestinians the exception
But support for suicide bombings is widespread among Palestinians, the report said, with 41 percent saying such attacks are often justified while another 29 percent say they can sometimes be justified. It found that only six percent of Palestinians — the smallest in any Muslim public surveyed — say such attacks are never justified.
Amid continuing sectarian violence in Iraq, the survey found there is broad concern among Muslims that tensions between Sunni and Shiite Muslims are not limited to that country and represent a growing problem for the Muslim world more generally.
Eighty-eight percent of Lebanese and 73 percent of Kuwaitis — along with smaller majorities or pluralities of Muslims elsewhere in the Middle East — said Sunni-Shiite tensions represent a growing problem for the Muslim world, the report said.
Globally, Pew’s survey shows a clear linkage between economic conditions and views of national conditions.
“A rising tide really does lift all boats,” Kohut said.
I suspect that the support for suicide bombings went down just because Muslims are the ones who usually end up getting bombed nowadays. Pakistanis might have been quite happy with bombings in NYC, but when the bombings started in Pakistan they changed their minds.
Yeah, that survey is doing real good for the rest of the world.
Now put the results of this alleged survey into real action and results.
Muslims need to start arresting other muslims plotting bombing attacks on the west.
Muslims need to start informing police of kidnapping plots.
Muslims need to stop killing Christians, natives, and non-muslims around the world.
Yes, all has now changed.
....but, do they REALLY.........?
After 13 centuries of murdering, etc., in the name of their religion(?) it will be hard to tell if, or when they're serious. 1300 years of behavior reversal ought to do it.
Wake me up in 3307 AD. I'm not holding my breath.
I suspect the reason for the fact that even affluent muslims succumb to jihad is what we might equate to "white guilt". You have a successful muslim male, with two wives, 12 kids, 2 Mercedes, 1 Jeep, a John Edwards style housing compound, a PhD, a flourishing medical provider occupation, and a problem. The problem "jihad guilt". The muslim male feels a hole in his heart for his past misdeeds (attaining education and vocation). Allah must be appeased or no orgy with the virgins and wine tasting after dinner in the afterlife. What's a muslim man to do? What better solution than blowing up for Allah. Then the crap hits the fan when your explosives don't explode and all you have left are 3rd degree burns over your entire body and even muslims think you are dumb.
"Muslims around the world increasingly reject suicide bombings and other violence against civilians in defense of Islam..."
.....they mean violence against Muslim civilians, as for the rest of the Non Muslim world, this cry for stopping the violence does not apply...
...like Vera, I suspect the Muslims are getting tired of their Muslim brothers blowing up other Muslims.....but it is what Muslims do with reckless abandon....
To be Muslim is to be ready to deal out and to accept death...even if the victim is another Muslim....
"Amid continuing sectarian violence in Iraq, the survey found there is broad concern among Muslims that tensions between Sunni and Shiite Muslims are not limited to that country and represent a growing problem for the Muslim world more generally.
Eighty-eight percent of Lebanese and 73 percent of Kuwaitis — along with smaller majorities or pluralities of Muslims elsewhere in the Middle East — said Sunni-Shiite tensions represent a growing problem for the Muslim world, the report said."
.....Muslims are so violent they hate each other...
.....Muslims should convert to Christianity if the want to know peace....
I'd like to think that the 1 billion are moderate and would be able to co-exist with non-believers on equal terms. It's the other 200 million I worry about.
Yes, the moderates are as moderate as hot peppers.
You must mean 1.2 billion are worth watching.
I am sure it was just a typo.
Folks, remember the saying, "a leopard cannot change its spots" ?
"...I wonder how anyone can seriously maintain that "surging economic growth" will really eradicate jihadist sentiments".
This materialist view is part of the Western invented Marxist delusion that gripped much of the world for about a century. It still lingers. However, man is not just an animal with instincts and needs, man is a culture-religion creator. We must answer the question "Why?" and are forever agitated by not being able to explain to ourselves our very existence. In one form or other (ideology, religion, atheism, etc.) we must have an explanation of life and we live our creed by our actions.
Islam is a system of total control and submission of every aspect of life and the dictation allegedly taken by Muhammad must be imposed on the world. It's not about economics. For a Muslim, all non-Muslim "indigenous cultures", "indigenous peoples" must submit to Sharia law and bow to Arab Mecca where it is alleged "the best people" are located. At its core Islam is the engine of Arab Imperialism. (However, Islam was also the rationalization for Ottoman Empire Imperialism, etc.)
At his core man is a culture creator. Islamic culture must dominate as per Muslim dogma, and those who do not submit are to be treated as helot-Dhimmis, subject to exploitation, deception and killing because it is rationalized that the non-Muslim helot class are "not innocent" as per alleged dictation taken by Muhammad.
Yes, man is a culture creator.
Mohammad put is clearly:
"War is deceit."
A poll is a propaganda tool.
Verify, don't trust.
'Muslims around the world increasingly reject suicide bombings and other violence against civilians in defense of Islam...'
Great. Let's await with bated breath the corresponding reduction in suicide bombings and other violence against civilians in defense of Islam.
As others say, "yada, yada, yada." it's just yak, yak, yak. The really interesting stat would be to see if suicide bombing and other terrorist acts have actually decreased amongst those who claim to so eschew the practice. so what if a poll "discovers" that 90 percent of population X are aghast and opposed to drug use (then one discovers that the actual use of illegal drugs is on the increase)? Anyone can say to a pollster: "I'm opposed to suicide bombing", then turn around and "donate" to a "charity." Actions speak louder than words. (and, I have noticed any decline in the acts of barbarism as committed by said "religion of peace.")
correction, that's "i haven't noticed any decline"
Muslims Hate being Muslims...
These "opinion polls" always amuse/annoy me. Remember the old saying, "Opinions are like a@@holes; everyone has one."
"My olfactories are keen to the smell of S@#$."
( from the HBO series DEADWOOD.) I smell TAQIYYA.
Saudi Arabia is center of Islamic culture and it is quite affluent and the core of Jihad culture is there. The conflict with Islam, within Islam, is not about economics. Only corrupt Marxist influenced minds are blind to reality on this. We are materialist by nature because we are material beings-but we are more that that when we wonder Why.
'Muslims around the world increasingly reject suicide bombings and other violence against civilians in defense of Islam...'
They see the DANGER of suicide bombings in Paris or New York. The danger to islam, the Muslim Brotherhood and world conquest.
Muslims blowing up other Muslims (children, old people, bystanders) in hideous ways UPSETS them - after all these are MUSLIMS even if they differ on some fine points.
Jews? Open season! Put rat poison and nails in your bombs and blow 'em up in a kindergarten! Cool.
I've mentioned before in JW and DW, but it bears repeating, terrorism is really a side issue. Demographic change is the big item. Shooting sprees in malls, and bombing attacks on public facilities are spectacular, and thus get a lot of media attention. But demographic change is slow and steady, and passes largely un-noticed in the media. But this is what will do us in unless we take action quickly. Year by year, more school districts will become increasingly moslem, with all the concomitant demands for special programs and facilities. Year by year more neighborhoods will become no-go areas to outsiders.
Already in most European countries, the birth-rate among the native population is below replacement levels, and the U.S. and Canada are approaching that point. We need to act quickly or the trends will become virtually irreversible. Further moslem immigration needs to be cut to zero. And the native population must be encouraged -- e.g. by tax breaks, political leadership and example, media support, social pressure, etc. -- to have more children.
We're told by our "leaders" that we need immigration to provide enough tax-paying workers to support our health and pension programs. I say it's better to provide for these by growing our own replacements in the form of our own children. Better that than relying on the good will of immigrants from an alien culture that does not share our values. Blood is thicker than water. My grandchildren will likely be willing to pay taxes, knowing that some of it is providing for my health care. But once the moslems are in control they won't pay taxes to support aged dhimmis. The government health care plan for dhimmis will be one visit to "Dr." Kevorkian.
This survey means nothing, except insofar as it has the ability to mislead and console the unwary. Why? Suicide bombings are now taking place not against the Americans -- who mostly suffer casualties from I.E.D.'s, but against other Muslims, in both Iraq and Pakistan, where they are directed against the government. And there have been other cases in Lebanon and in Saudi Arabia. And it may have spread to the Maghreb. Muslims are well aware of this. They are well aware that suicide bombings may be a threat to them, to their own wellbeing, as they walk down the streets of Cairo or Damascus or Beirut or Algiers or Riyadh.
And they are also well aware of what damage, not all terrorism, but a particular kind of terrorism -- suicide bombing -- does to the all-important "image" of Islam. It is too easy to put into a political cartoon a suicide-belted fanatic. That can be easily grasped by the viewer. A growing number of Muslims obviously feel keenly the public-relations problem, which for them is quite different from moral abhorrence.
Imagine, if you will, that there were no suicide bombs going off in Iraq, or now in Pakistan, or in Algiers, or, here and there, even in Lebanon, or Morocco. Imagine that you are a Muslim living in Doha or Dearborn. If in Doha, you probably don't like the idea that suicide-bombers could suddenly decide that the Al-Thani family has been too friendly to Infidels (it's nonsense), or that the wife of the reigning ruler is a bit too fashionably got up and too "feminist" in her leanings. And these suicide-bombings, you might feel at this point, are something to be discouraged, for they might come to you. And if you are a Muslim in Dearborn, and are keenly aware of the need to lie low for now, and to proceed softly-softly so as tn ensure you have the time to solidly insinuate yourself into the American landscape, not least through constant repetition of phrases about "three abrahamic faiths" and a deliberate emphasis, with which the media plays eager ball, on how family-oriented (you bet!) Muslims are, and what good incomes Muslims make in this country (a sign which we are apparently to interpret as making them more Ameridan, Just Like Us, Nearer My God to Thee) and all kinds of other things -- which have nothing to do with the texts or tenets or inculcated beliefs, such as sole loyalty being owed only to Islam and fellow members of the Umma, and a disbelief in pluralism (save where, in countries still controlled by Infidels, such "pluralism" can be exploited to Muslim advantage), individual rights and autonomy (Islam is a collectivist faith; the individual does not matter, and he certainly is not to be permitted the Western ideas of freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, freedom of speech).
That's it. Some of those answering the survey of Muslim "opinion" surely have learned by now that they can answer any damn way that suits the interests of Islam, and would naturally wish to put the best face on Islam for the Infidels that they can. So the lying, which we shall primly describe as the "margin for error," only goes one way -- and the size of that "margin" in a culture of lying for Islam must be very large, and certainly can not possibly be estimated in any plausible way.
All such polls of Muslims, when they have at hand a worked-out doctrine of religiously-sanctioned dissiumulation (taqiyya and kitman, both of which are ultimately derived from Muhammad's declaration that "war is deception" -- a statement taken to heart over the past 1350 years of Islamic history) are silly. Or rather, they are useful only in establishing the absolutely minimum number of Muslims who might support something hideous. If 29% of Muslims living in Great Britain, for example, reply to a poll that they suppor acts of terrorism within Britain itself, then one has a base line -- 29% -- and can conclude, with confidence, that at least 29% of Muslims in Great Britian would support domestic terrorism. But that is all one can say. One cannot say, with equal confidence, that 71% of Muslims living in Great Britain are unalterably opposed, or even opposed, to acts of terrrorism within Great Britain. One cannot say that those who are opposed to such acts of terrorism within Great Britain are also opposed to such acts in, say, New York or Washington, D.C. or for that matter Jerusalem or Delhi or Bombay.
And the main point is this: is any declared opposition to a particular kind of terrorism -- as suicide bombing -- based on fear that this weapon could easily be used, as in Iraq and Pakistan, against Muslim regimes, and so be a threat, given the nature of the weapon, to the security of Muslim streets in Muslim cities, combined with a worry over Islam's "image" - or is it a principled opposition, to the random killing of non-combatants, and does it extend to Infidels, and if so, to all Infidels, or only those who live in cities where there are also Muslims who might suffer?
Without knowing the answers to these questions -- and polling is an exceedingly clumsy way to find out the truth about what Muslims think (which surely must come from what they are taught to think, in environments in which Islam informs every area of life, in a way that no other faith does or ever has, but that can only be compared, in its overwhelmingness, to living in a totalitarian state, with the ruling ideology that is in the very air one breathes) -- these polls are, and will remain, guides to nothing and nowhere, but -- still worse than that -- will be taken seriously, and misused, in order to prolong naivete, unwarienss, a wilful ignorance, a wilful refusal to study and to think, about the unprecedented problem of millions of Muslims allowed to live, without anyone having thought much about it, in the countries of Western Europe and North America, and the consequences of that heedlessness, that nearly criminal negligence, that civilizational frivolity.
Re the "silent majority".
The whole thing is so absurd. Would we be reassured if only 29% of Germans in 1942 supported the Nazis with regard to the extermination of Slavs and Jews? All such a poll tells us is that 71% would not do what the 29% do-it does not mean that the 71% will actively oppose the 29%. The Nazis were never a majority in Germany either.
Remember this is the same survey people that not too long ago, Pew that said up to about 26% of young American Moslims who said they would do jihad to defend Islam.
Got to remember that this is the "public" presentation in order to fool the non-Moslims. Got to be different in the private sphere.
Maybe they have just learned to tell Western pollsters what they want to hear. DING DING DING ! WE HAVE A WINNER!
ebonystone, you have it 100% right. Demographics are the real problem in the long run and absolutely nobody is even talking about that which is really scary. I totally agree that people with more children should get big tax breaks but left wing is not about giving tax breaks under any circumstances. They'd rather take all the cash they possibly can and then decide how to blow it. And there's also greed and shortsightedness. Some people think that it's cheaper for them to import people than to encourage natives to reproduce. In the long run that creates lots of problems if the newcomers don't integrate and breed faster.
Hungarian Crusader - I was trying to be clever with the 1 billion vs. 200 million.
200 million is about 16% of 1.2 billion. If 10-20% is militant we have around 200 million militants world wide.
It doesn't really matter what the rest say or do. They are irrelevant because the radical element will always control the agenda - especially in places with nothing but 'strong horse' rule.
We still have a huge, worldwide problem with a large majority of Muslims being moderate and even that idea is suspect - I must agree with you.
Two of the points above –- they are now the victims of these attacks and they are embarrassed given the West’s revulsion –- are worth savoring.
Let’s remember that we should want to contain the problem. If there is internal strife, that’s in our interest. If they lose external support (and given growing anti-immigrant sentiment in the USA and Europe), that’s in our interest.
But let’s not be fooled (as most here aren't) that there is a deep cultural change, i.e. "a principled opposition" as Hugh puts it. Islam is still Islam.
My concerns regarding this poll are two fold: 1) how was the term "civilians" defined? My understanding is that most muslims believe that non-muslims are not "innocent" and are the enemy to islam. Therefore, there is no such thing as a non-muslim civilian. We are all enemy combatants. So the poll would only indicate that the majority of muslims are against suicide bombings of other muslims i.e. civilians.
2) Putting the civilian argument aside, with 1.2 billion of them, the minority that believes it is ok is still a lot of potential bombs.
Hey folks, dont believe a word of this propaganda piece that they are rejecting extremism as their economic conditions improve. In fact they take pride in the terror their brethens have brought onto the infidels. However, now that their true cover have been exposed which clearly shows that their ideology is one of a cult of death, they are feeling the heat and need the media to play it down. They have enough oil money to manipulate the media to their whims.
As we infidels begin to show our understanding of jihad, and begin to show our resolve to end it, it is only logical that Muslims will begin to speak up in order to save their own skins. One could ask why they didn't say anything earlier, or whether their newfound anti-jihad opinions are heartfelt or just what they think they need to say to cool down the growing anti-jihad.
I think this is a legitamate dissaproval throughout the Muslim world. Since the study began, Muslims have become aware of more suicide bombings directed towards other muslims, as the violence shifted in Iraq towards sectarianism, and more bombings have erupted in Pakistan.
In other words, terrorism is no longer directed towards Jews and Americans as much as it was in the past.
I think this is a legitamate dissaproval throughout the Muslim world. Since the study began, Muslims have become aware of more suicide bombings directed towards other muslims, as the violence shifted in Iraq towards sectarianism, and more bombings have erupted in Pakistan.
In other words, terrorism is no longer directed towards Jews and Americans as much as it was in the past.
What a load of taquyya manure.
islam does not value truth and its adherents will say anything to advance or excuse it, or get themselves off the hook and avoid responsibility.
Since the only good jihadi is a dead one, and more people in the West are coming to that realization, likely this is just the umma, amoeba-like, going into defensive mode.
It's still the same old evil ideology, right Ibrahim ?
I think this is a legitamate dissaproval throughout the Muslim world. Since the study began, Muslims have become aware of more suicide bombings directed towards other muslims, as the violence shifted in Iraq towards sectarianism, and more bombings have erupted in Pakistan.
In other words, terrorism is no longer directed towards Jews and Americans as much as it was in the past.
If it's true, one part of the cause could be a rising awareness among Muslims that they are getting into hotter and hotter water, as far as more and more Westerners are concerned. The change in Western attitudes over just the last few months seems noticeable. Muslim leaders and others might be reading the writing on the wall, and going into spontaneous hudna mode...
Another part of the cause could be the approach of war with Iran. It's getting closer, and the Middle East must know that, and be getting scared.
Frank-
"The Nazis were never a majority in Germany either."
For all the spin and soothing words, Frank, we MUST remember this. I just read a spectacularly thrilling non-fiction book called The Last Jews of Berlin. Can't believe someone hasn't made a series out of it.
Surprisingly, Hitler was never THAT popular in Berlin! The sad thing is that for all the grumbling and passive resistance to the Nazis it was the insane inner circle of true believers who steered an unveering course to mass murder and self immolation. No change there.
Robert wrote:
"Maybe they have just learned to tell Western pollsters what they want to hear."
Exactly. The economic correlation is illogical and therefore implausible.
Hugh wrote:
"If 29% of Muslims living in Great Britain, for example, reply to a poll that they suppor acts of terrorism within Britain itself, then one has a base line -- 29% -- and can conclude, with confidence, that at least 29% of Muslims in Great Britian would support domestic terrorism. But that is all one can say. One cannot say, with equal confidence, that 71% of Muslims living in Great Britain are unalterably opposed, or even opposed, to acts of terrrorism within Great Britain."
Exactly. Propoganda intended to mislead.
The current poll isn't up, but a poll released this month is quite interesting.
When Muslims start rejecting Islam, then we'll be getting somewhere.
poetcomic1-
I think in every society there is what I call the significant 25% and they are led by 5% of the total population. The Nazis were a core of the German population, the rest were followers.
Eisenhower once said wars will end when the great masses everywhere simply refuse to cooperate with a violent minority and actively oppose them. He said it may one day happen everywhere at once and on that day war will end, violence as a political tool will end. The Germans were not at that point in 1939-no group has ever gotten to that point yet.
On a less optimistic note: War may be part of nature, a tool like famine and disease to keep the population in check. War may be part of a larger biological picture that really reflects competitive and brutal nature. States and groups reflect the primitive nature of individuals, are macrocosms of that. In the 5,000 years of recorded history there are maybe 100 years in which there were no wars.
We are much more primitive than we pretend to be. We are part of nature, though our mind-soul knows that (unlike other animals). However, the self cannot always willfully control the mind either (we see that when we watch the mind race at night when we cannot sleep. We watch the process).
We may be more part of process than we would like to think. War, conquest, subduing, exploitation may be part of our nature and our mind simply provides rationalizations for that (usually religion or ideology). Muhammed provided good reasons to ambush people and take from them the fruit of their labor. He organized and rationalized plunder. So did Hitler.
We are the species that must answer the question Why. The next time somebody does something really stupid-ask them why. You'll see I'm right. We must provide a reason for everything we do. So when we subdue, exploit, enslave, kill others-we surround our nature with bullshit rationalizations and invoke religion or ideology. Why? Because God said so. Off with their heads.
If they believe in AIDS infected melons and Polio vaccines that cause infertility, I am sure they think the pollsters are really undercover CIA agents.
In other words, terrorism is no longer directed towards Jews and Americans as much as it was in the past.
Posted by: Jimmy the Dhimmi
How much of this is simply an indicator of reduced opportunity? The Israelis have isolated Muslims with walls and checkpoints, preventing them from moving freely into Jewish areas, but the rocket attacks continue. They just have bad direction and usually go off without killing anyone.
Americans are on the lookout for Muslims in our own communities. Trust is gone. We no longer give them the benefit of the doubt. We don't see places like Islamberg as nice oddities. We regard them as threats and the people inside know it.
We protect ourselves better in Iraq. The best opportunity for terrorists to make headway is against the Shiite government and so the attacks on civilians continue. An attack on police or on civilians is considered a proxy attack on the infidel.
As for the increased attacks on other Muslims: where is that happening except in Iraq, where the stakes are the control of a country and its oil?
What is happening in Anbar? Is it really sheikhs coming to see that ongoing warfare is not in their best interest or is it a strategic decision to let the US get rid of those who are attacking the Sunnis, freeing the Sunnis up to attack Americans at a later date?
Even one percent of Muslims saying suicide bombings are sometimes justified poses a danger. It amounts to thirteen million people. That's a lot to monitor.
LOL this Is an area where I definately will comment.
As one with a lot of experience dealing with far left [economic] politics, the notion of 'poverty being the cause for Jihadism' is about the most ridiculous claim there is, from a far left Marxist view. The FACT is, the theocratic regimes of Islam are notorious for capitalist wealth hoarding and exploitation, and the FACT is, its globalization and wealth that is 'increasing the power and economic base of Jihadists, NOT the other way around.
One of the reasons the 'fallacy' of poverty causations is due to the ignorance today of the difference in ideologies between Marxism, socialism and communism, Plekanov and Lenin, etc. Just as with any ideology there are differences as well as similarities. I should add that in today's 'leftism' there is more differences with the addition of 'progressives' or what is deemed as the 'new left', relevance here is that the post-colonial influence has a LOT to do with the perpetuation of that belief that its the west imperialism-capitalism that is the root cause of all the ills in the world.
One of the areas of ideology that I as well as many others do not concur with other leftists is that economics alone is the culprit, what the materialists assert. [actually its always been one of the main dividers within far left/left ideology] Anyhow, this is relevant and very important in that--Europe, for example, the socialists are actually in the pockets of the 'rich' and what we are seeing today is basically the selling out of the people to the highest bidder--and today that bidder is political Islam. Often you hear Chomsky refer to the 'defense economy' but this is where the left leaves out half of the truth--the defence economy during the Cold War wasn't just the US--it was the Soviets as well.
In fact, one of the reasons we are seeing the increase in defense power [and have been] in these Islamic theocratic-despotic-totalitarian regimes is due to the years of arms sales/deals with the Soviets and yes, in fact the United States. The Middle East, was the middle man so to speak in a struggle for hegemony. Its interesting when reading the older Soviet Military Policies/Agreements at just how many of these despotic regimes today were once the allies of the Soviets, and each one of them once the Mullahs and theocrats took power [which they truly already had, the arrogance of power which is typical of the far left] kicked the Soviets out one by one, e.g. Somalia, Iraq [once US took their place--FACT, 1984,, Iran, Algeria, North Yemen [US also] and South Yemen. [Syria was huge dealer with Soviets and Egypt].
Its really interesting when you read the amount of billions traded in arms/military between these countries and with US and Soviets. Especially Libya, Algeria [France too], Southwest Asia, and India/East Asia. The same can be said with the fact that before the blood was even cleaned up in the former Yugoslavia [Bosnian-Croation-Serbian War] the WTO was there doing research for future development. I remember this because it was the topic for my senior seminar in college. Why its not surprising to see the development of NATO and US and the silent genocide occurring right now in Albania and Kosovo, perpetuated by none other than the Islamic regimes.
The only aspect of the 'wealth' feeding the rise in fundamentalism that holds any weight of truth is not that poverty is the cause of the Osamas of the world, no, but the mega billions in arms deals, corruption, and greed, by none other than the very governments [and many of them socialist in Europe] who are in bed with the very ones who want to dominate. See the truth is, the global elites don't really give a damn if the Islamists are in power--it doesn't take a genius to figure it out.
All one has to do [and its really elementary] is look at the development for the very global elites/wealthy in Dubai. Its not the average Joe and Susy buying up these high end condos and motels and lavish mall properties in Dubai--its the elites, rich, who have no qualms in exchanging wealth with the likes of Hezbollah, Hamas, the Osamas of the world. Why else do you think they have no issue with the building of giant Mosques--its money. Pure and simple--money. And the despots have tons of it.
So poverty, being the cause of terrorism, is laughable. Not only that--the one thing that just boggled my mind--the blatant STUPIDITY of leftists [far leftists--excluding some communists that have actually 'read communist history/theory' and not these hormone crazed too much time on their hands hemp smoking kumbayah singing morons that call themselves radicals and liberals'--
but the blatant stupidity is that in every single Islamic country, the conditions for workers is appalling. [why the trade agreement with Oman is an utter disgrace--HP are you listening--more American jobs will be lost so the billions can be made via sweatshops, expats working and all in the oh so Holy Islamic countries--yea Right--why they wink wink after leaving the Mosque to go rape the trafficked women from the former Soviet and the poor of the other Islamic countries--trafficked sex slaves and 'work slaves' including CHILDREN.
But every single Islamic country's wealth is not only based on oil--but on SLAVERY. I have to laugh when I hear post colonialists scream racism and imperialism against the ones with some common sense who see through the bullshit of Islam--because in each Islamic country, the elites and Mullahs and terrorists, yes the terrorists, prey and thrive on the exploitation of the poor, of the worker, of women, of children. Muhummad was in fact, a military and 'IMPERIALIST GENIUS' who knew just how to build Arab nations to rise up and conquest and to rule. He used the Malthusian model to build up mass armies, that and with fraternicide, enslavement of women, he was a clever manipulator of the opiate that rules people's minds.
And the globalists, those robber barons who have not a care in the world for the average person, because hey, they can go hide out in the richest places on earth when all hell breaks loose [the rich always have, in every war--interesting reading about how the machine guns dealer/inventor became very rich in WWI, good example of how those without conscious will use any ideology, any power, any regime to maintain their power base. But the globalist power mongers today can just flee to Dubai, or Saudi even--in other words, they don't care. The socialists in Europe don't care--its not just votes they are interested in, its the appeasement of the Islamic Robber Barons they are interested in maintaining those good relationships with.
And the greedy wealthy in the West don't care either. It really is about money--we so soon forget, how Osama and Saddam were assisted in the first place, and why. The Islamists are gaining because of the money, because of the willingness to sell out the people of each country for the strength of the Euro or the Dollar. And the Islamists know it, don't think they don't.
Why Europeans would be wise to really focus on the IMPERIALISM of the Islamist Regimes, expose the hypocrisy of the socialists using their own damn ideology against them--the FACTS of the exploitation of workers, trafficking of poor, of women, of children, the facts are not hard to find. AT the upcoming 9-11 protest, thats EXACTLY what the protestors should do, the so called socialists 'duped idiots' who want to scream tolerance and multi-culturalism--point out with large print--the SLAVERY AND ECONOMIC EXPLOITATION THESE ISLAMISTS USE TO PROP UP THEIR POWER, THEIR MULLAHS, THEIR IMANS, THEIR MOSQUES...
use graphic photos of child slaves, posters of case by case accounts of beaten, raped, starved WORKERS, trafficked from Philliphines, Banglidesh, Pakastan [that the Muslims themselves sell for debt bondage or greed, many of them selling their own kids], from Asia, from the former Soviet Bloc countries--post them, large print--expose the 'hypocrites' FOR THE COLONIZERS AND SLAVE BARRONS THEY ARE--
get the focus away from the 'religion' or 'culture' [as thats what they use to build this false myth of intolerance and bigotry against those who see the dangers] and put that focus on the economic IMPERIALISM AND COLONIZATION of the Islamist regimes--hell use Lenin's own words, Luxemburgs own words against those very socialists and liberals who scream world peace and human rights.
The days of playing nice nice are over--the Jihad is already going on--as Malcom X himself said--the battle is in the minds, Fanon said--the battle is in the minds. Fight fire with fire, don't let up, not for a second. I'm not. Neither should any of you.
If the very leftists who scream about poverty really gave a damn about poverty, they sure as hell wouldn't be in bed with the worst capitalist exploiters and imperialists in the world. They are in fact the very bourgouse that Lenin hated if you really want to pull out the left ideology--they are damn sure not prolitariat by no means.
its time the Hypocrisy of the left is exposed for what it is--in the Economics--that is their weakness. USE IT. Especially in Europe. In America, the weakness is in their arguments against separation of church and state--I say bring them out on it, call them on it--FORCE THEIR HAND.
One thing I did gain from years of being in the far left--I know how they work, how they think, how they undermine--and how they stumble--they 'think' they can control the Jihadists, that whole keeping your enemy in front of you--their reliance on strict materialist belief is their achilles heel, and even after all this time, after all the betrayals in treaties with the Islamists--they still haven't learned. Arrogance does that,
one more thing before I close, the Islamists through out history have watched and studied their enemies, how the Ottoman Empire got to be as powerful as they were--they studied for years the warfare and economics and philosophies of the West--they then studied the far left, the Maoists especially. Now they study the liberals--
the mistake is the underestimation of the Islamists. Why we are seeing the stupidity of cultural relativism today, in that post colonial nationalism Stalinist type [e.g. Chavez--which btw, one thing the far left doesn't like, is when you throw out the influence of neo-Nazism in the Americas for all those years] of
'self-determination'--thats where you are seeing a lot of this so called multi-culturalist ideology coming from. But take it one step further--in dealing with those who push the 'oh its poverty excuse'--take it back further, and use it to expose them. Its like a jury you know, that little bit of doubt. People don't pay much mind sadly [due to years of being duped and brainwashing and out right mental laziness] but they don't pay much mind to what is going on 'over there' but they Do pay mind to how things effect their pocketbooks or their future security job wise [pay attention Europeans]--
they may not pay much mind to the 'stop Islamization' in Europe--because they've been brainwashed, know what I'm saying, but they damn sure will pay mind to the empirical overwhelming evidence of the economic IMPERIALISM and DEALS between the governments selling out the economic security of the people to the very regimes who assert 'peace and purity' and anti-imperialism--
SHINE A FLASHLIGHT ON THEIR ECONOMIC IMPERIALISM.
Natasha
Exactly, PMK. The Pakistanis have also been experiencing "the joy" of suicide bombers. Wonder if they all pass around candies in celebration?
Probably half of the sudden angst over suicide bombers is because of their own realization, (surprise!), that bombers can strike Muslims too. (only then does it become "unacceptable.") Maybe if Hamas sends out a few suicide bombers against Fatah, then there might be a decline.
With Islam, I have yet to read anything nearing a prohibition against committing murder (there's always some lurking, background justification, if not inherent praise). When wasn't Islam genocidal or mounting some Jihad campaign against group X? It's what makes Islam Islam.
I also question this PEW poll -- yeah, it stinks. I don't consider it scientific. It's worthless. So they note that support for Binny Boy is dropping off. Well why is that? Why should anyone just assume it's because "Muslims don't approve of Binny Boy's 'violence.'" Sure. For all we know, they don't support Binny Boy because he hasn't launched a significantly devastating attack against the west/Infidels. thus, he's no longer "worth" supporting.
They didn't ask the most important question of all: "did all past suicide bombers go to heaven or hell?" If they said "heaven", then the survey doesn't mean a damn thing. They're still glorifying suicide bombers as martyrs, and saying that God is pleased with their murderous actions. It's still the quickest way to get to heaven, and there'll always be takers for the job.
When Muslims say that suicide bombing is a sin and an abominatioon in the eyes of God, and that it is never justified by econimic or other reasons, then we'll be making progress.
Without the proper questions, this survey really doesn't tell us anything of importance.
Ebonystone,
"Already in most European countries, the birth-rate among the native population is below replacement levels, and the U.S. and Canada are approaching that point."
According to the most recent census, the fertility rate in Canada is 1.5, which is well below replacement level. Last time I checked, the fertility rate in the U.S. was hovering around 2.1, close to replacement level.
However, among people of European ancestry in Canada and the U.S. (i.e., "whites"--those most likely, though not exclusively, to be carriers of western civilization), I suspect that the fertility rate is probably lower than those averages.
Dropping fertility rates would be a manageable problem if immigration was held down to reasonably low levels, and if those small number of immigrants were screened much more carefully. However, Canada's immigration levels are at 1% of the national population per year, which means that Canada, like many European countries, is replacing its population with immigrants, mostly non-European immigrants who have high fertility rates and who therefore will constitute the majority of the future inhabitants of those countries. Moreover, many of the immigrants are Muslims who hold "traditional" views, i.e., they believe in implementing Islamic law over everyone. These "traditional" Muslims are the ones who have the highest fertility rates, who are most politically active, and who are most hostile towards non-Muslims and western civilization.
In 50-100 years, if present immigration and fertility rates continue, the U.S. and possibly Australia may contain the only significant remnants of western civilization. I do not see any indications that any of these trends will change on their own, nor do I see any indications that westerners would be willing to take the steps necessary to stop and/or reverse these demographic changes. While the west commits civilizational suicide, Muslims have been using, and will continue to use, demographic conquest as the primary and most assured means to defeat the west and establish Islamic law.
And, Oasis, one can't even count on those of "European ancestry" here in Canada to be pro-West -- a huge number of them appear absolutely content, if not delighted, with the prospect of having their children or grandchildren growing up Muslim. It's not a problem for them. the NDP supports Hamas -- they figure it's a fine, wonderful organization dedicated to "human rights." so the numbers here advocating for the West's demise is considerably larger than just the number of Muslim immigrants (there are also some Muslim who escaped oppressive islamic regimes, only to discover that "Hey, Canada likes and wants to emulate the Mullahs and Imams of the third world!") I very much doubt if Canada will "wake up." We're continuing to import huge numbers -- more and more getting into influential positions. Bribery, nepotism and corruption will soon become endemic. (speaking of bribery -- there was a case recently of Consular officials discovering that a "doctor" overseas -- India --was accepting bribes -- that was to give out false health reports to people seeking entrance to Canada. So now we've got any number of people -- that's immigrants -- with infectious diseases (I'm guessing it's tuberculosis) now in Canada. And who says that immigrants are an "economic" boon? Add up the costs for surveillance of Muslims, add up the costs for the bribery, corruption, etc. and where's the benefits? I don't see it.
“It’s a pro-globalization set of findings,” Kohut said.
It is not surprising that the apologist for Islam, Kohut, would be pleased with these apparent reductions in what Muslims are willing to say about "suicide bombing". The folks at PEW have been lobbing vague, ambiguous, softball questions to Muslim respondents over the years since 9/11. The questions do not ask about other forms of Islamic terrorism which do not involve suicide of the Muslim--such as Hizballah's recent tactics last summer, after which 75% of Iranians expressed approval of Hizballah--and conveniently do not specify whether the targets of said attacks are Muslim or non-Muslim. The researchers also did not collect, or did not include in their presented analyses, such pertinent information as to whether the respondent to a particular question was Sunni or Shia. Obviously, Sunnis will tend to support bin Laden* in his activities (though not necessarily as "world leader"--the rather far-fetched option that PEW gives repeatedly) and Shia will tend to oppose him.
*According to a large poll conducted by al-Jazeera last year, 49.9% of "Arabs" (keeping in mind that not all Arabs are Sunni and that some are not even Muslim) said "yes," that they "support" bin Laden.
J.S.,
"And who says that immigrants are an "economic" boon? Add up the costs for surveillance of Muslims, add up the costs for the bribery, corruption, etc. and where's the benefits? I don't see it."
I agree. Even if there are economic downsides to the reduction in population due to dropping fertility rates, we can figure out ways to adapt to those slow changes without ushering in the end of western civilization.
"And, Oasis, one can't even count on those of "European ancestry" here in Canada to be pro-West"
Yes, some of the most fervent defenders of western values such as freedom of expression, freedom of conscience, equality of all people in the eyes of the law, etc., are indeed originally from non-European backgrounds. Nevertheless, I'm talking about larger trends.
"-- a huge number of them appear absolutely content, if not delighted, with the prospect of having their children or grandchildren growing up Muslim. It's not a problem for them. the NDP supports Hamas -- they figure it's a fine, wonderful organization dedicated to "human rights.""
Yes, disgusting isn't it? However, even the Conservatives in Ontario are talking about funding Islamic schools to be "fair".
"...even the Conservatives in Ontario are talking about funding Islamic schools to be 'fair'." How pathetic. But then I guess that's not too terribly surprising -- the Conservatives are also funding Fatah -- Hamas Lite. (I believe Fatah is responsible for more terrorist attacks and Israeli deaths, than is Hamas.)
I recall a quote from the text "The J Curve" by Ian Bremmer. He was writing about Iraq under Saddam, but I think his observations apply to any number of Islamic nations. He wrote: "Personal trust and loyalty, more than respect for national institutions or law, became the political coin of the realm. The men who made Iraqi history, then and since, have treated political power as a weapon to be wielded against personal enemies and as a source of personal profit -- rarely as a tool for serving the National interest...patronage networks formed the structures on which rule of Iraq has been based" (p 60-61).
I agree with your contention that "the U.S. and possibly Australia may contain the only significant remnants of western civilization." Another reason is that Canada, unlike the United States, does not have a unifying, national narrative -- this lack of one coherent identity can easily be exploited -- so we become segmented, distinct, broken into regional/ethnic blocs...making it easier for the crocodiles to eat us...and making it all that more difficult to fight for "the National interest."
Economical growth and a good jobs does stop jihad.
Of course it would have to happen only when the muslims take over all economys and have the infedels (that are left) doing the work.
It's all deceptive and i won't be able to believe a word from a muslim again for as long as i live.
"A test of any man is in his actions"
These polls mean nothing to me.I fail to see how you can say the majority feels a certain way by polling a handful.
These people are just polishers of a different tightly coiled pile on the neighbors lawn.
There are too many people working overtime to prove what Islam isn't.
Get my drift?
It's insulting that my tax dollars somehow fund this white wash crap.
PEW did it...it's flawed. End of story.
Their trying to save face after the a(fanny)-reaming backlash they got last time around.
I'm not falling for it at all...any poll who has ever fudged the numbers to the degree they and their peers have, lose their credibility right there.
The Muslims are only wanting the bombing of fellow Muslims to stop. The killing of all others--- 'Infidels' -- is quite OK with 99% of them.
There is nothing that will stop Muslims from trying to kill all others. It is part of their crazy religious teachings. The Imams who espouse violence to others need to be monitored for just that purpose.
Bring back the guillotine and USE IT!
There is far more than just economic factors.
For one thing, being a wealthy and educated person in a society where most people are uneducated and poor means you are going to pick up the views and beliefs of the society. In cases like Saudi Arabia where urbanization happened fast there was a strong conservative backlash. It takes time for the values that make harsh nomadic life possible to be replaced by ones that make urban life easier, especially if these nomadic values are enshrined in an all encompassing religion.
Another issue is that people in the Middle East are becoming connected to people beyond their local community. While Urbanization is a part of this, communications technology is important also. People are becoming able to discuss these issues with diverse people and in venues where the prevailing social view is not so powerful. People (especially the young) can hear what others really think about apostates or the role of women or jihad that may very well differ form the local Imam or from Islam itself. This communication also helps them see what impact terrorism has on the perception of Islam.
Globalization, economic growth, and increasing information availability are having a corrosive effect on Islamic society. The presence of terrorist support and extremist views are just like the white foam produced by putting hydrogen peroxide on a wound.
The Muslims aint gonne tell me and you the truth. Dream on!
"Globalization, economic growth, and increasing information availability are having a corrosive effect on Islamic society. The presence of terrorist support and extremist views are just like the white foam produced by putting hydrogen peroxide on a wound."
This is the belief--and what I was referring to, but its not exactly the entire picture. In fact, globalization and economic growth is in fact increasing the strength of Islamic fundamentalism [using left terms here for sake of argument] unity and hegemony.
They adapt well, they are adapting well, current examples at this very minute, Algeria and Saudi Arabia. Wealth and the teachings of Islam do not conflict, in fact, Islam, if you really look at it in a historical analysis, was an institution based solely on the building of 'wealth' and 'trade'. The means, violence and rape and enslavement were simpl that--the means to an end.
Globalization does not bring the conflict and tensions to Islamic society in the way it does lets say secular society because slavery is already an accepted means of living under Islam. They have not an issue with their women and children working in sweatshops, doing piece meal work, even chained slavery work. Because the religion itself is classist and caste, it is not a belief system of equality or rights to upward mobility for all. Why they were so successful in establishing and maintaining MONARCHIES AND FEUDALISM.
And its in this very aspect that I could no longer justify or even bear to listen to the arguments of the far left in regards to Islam, because its like water and oil. On one hand you hear complaints which are legit btw, regarding the effects of globalization on developing countries and on developed countries, but on the other hand the tolerance and 'excuses' made for the blatant and I mean blatant o.k., not subtle, out in the face there slavery that is not only going on daily in Islamic societies but is taught, ordained and is the creed of Islam, and the excuses used of 'oh its their culture' or 'its because they are not developed, etc',
its a load of kaka. Ok its just a load of kaka. I don't have all the like military specs on hand right here but just the technology alone that Osama and his thugs had and have, this isn't a people who have not adapted to technology or globalization, not in the least. They may not distribute it [in fact they don't--will get into that here in bit] across the board socially due to the corruption--but that corruption is like the tolerance of slavery--its the creed of Islam.
There are a few communists who are totally opposed to Islam, the fact is however that they are of the old school--most are gone by now or are isolated in pockets in regions. I mention this because the very reason they are opposed [other than it being for religious opposition] is due to the stratifications of the monarchial/caste/class system in Islam, its totally contrary to the ideals of any Marxist economy. National socialists however have not an issue with using capitalism/slavery if its to the benefit of 'the nation' or 'the state' [and if you really study Stalinism he was nationalist--or what leftists term as 'state capitalism', same thing] but
that is the reason why you see this belief, this self-determination and nationalist opposition [and support for Islamic regimes by the likes of Chavez and Castro for example] is because of the national socialist ideology.
I'm not so sure either if relying on 'urbanization' is key to the Muslims shaking off the despotic and ABSOLUTIST mentality. Look at Iran, back in the days of the Shah they were very urbanized [Tehran] and what came of it? Weber wrote an exceptional book, "The Varieties of Fascism" and there are 13 in his book [older book] and the similarities between nationalist fascism [even apart from the religious part--just the state character of Islamic regimes] and the fascism of Mussolini and/or Hitler [there were differences there] is just astounding. Why it really does just is mind boggling how today the left has totally gone over to the side of the imperialists of the world.
And I mention the post colonialism a lot because having worked a lot with feminist groups, one of the big issues and divides right now even within that sphere is the women of color verses white western feminism. And I saw Islam a lot using this divide to push their Arab nationalism/Islamist nationalism. They play on the 'guilt' of whites--of the guilt of the west in that 'oh you were colonizers and blah blah blah--[why that label of racism is really powerful in blinding logic].
One thing here that Spencer is right about--and that is the practice of Taqqiya in Islam, which is the deliberate use of deception and 'adaptation to western or liberal ways' for the sake of deluding or tricking non-believers in thinking they [Islam] are not extreme or totalitarian. How I know this--and why I, as a former far leftist, have no qualms in stepping aside and speaking out--I like to say--a leftist refusenik--
because I was engaged at one time to a Muslim. A Shite, in college. For a year I was around the Islamic culture, though still in the west, I saw enough--to convince me, that and I read, the Sharia Codes [and you know they should put the Sharia Codes on public service announcements--because that in itself would wake people out of their stupor real quick--its THAT HORRID. I also read Komenie's book where it does say-- a father can rape his infant daughter and if a virgin is jailed--they should be raped before execution and this was virgins at the age of nine.
I mean--this isn't just like a few who believe this garbage--it is the whole of their faith--I've read enough of the Koran/Quran to know....why when I was in a far left party I wasn't easily duped, and yes--I got called a racist, bigot, bitch, class traitor, but mostly a bigot/racist--funny thing was--the idiots who would stoop that low even in the face of FACTS had no qualms with lapping up hard core porn and child porn--made as we know--mostly by trafficked women and children of color from the poorest regions of the world. Once I called them on that--that shut them up.
And a few of the men--now get this because this is something that not many are paying attention too--but the reason a lot of western men are 'converting over to Islam' is just that--the tolerance for polygamy and domestic violence and rape and mostly, pedaphilia. I got into it big time with one of these assholes in the far left who is like all in bed with CAIR...he's a misogynist jerk. Needless to say he's out of the party [cuzz he was a jerk in other ways] but I saw that a lot, read it alot too in European boards. And the Islamist men are using that to lure ignorant western men into Islam.
And--even worse--they use women to seduce, yea go see some of the Islamic chat rooms where these sixteen year old girls have like all this eye makeup on with these veils that are something out of Laurance of Arabia, lol--and its just amazing at the stupidity of so many--it really is a cult of sex perversion and they are using it to lure young people in. And hey, I'll tell you, its why many of the liberals are all ga ga over them too--they too stupid to realize,
what they do here, is totally different from what they allow under Sharia and those countries over there. This I know, because the man I was engaged too [which ended because I just wasn't going to convert or accept that way of life] but his own sisters, warned me when they could. His own sisters and his mother--and let me tell you,
those women ARE MISERABLE. ITS THE WORST FORM OF SLAVERY AND READING IT IS ONE THING--SEEING IT--BREAKS YOUR HEART. There is no way, no way any human being with any sense of empathy or compassion, I don't care what their politics is, but no way they could see and live among women so brutally oppressed and I mean brutal, imprisoned o.k. they are imprisoned, literally, and seeing that and NOT JUST REND AND TEAR THEIR HAIR OUT...to not be bothered by that, to me means one thing--they are misogynist themselves.
Because it is horrible. Its the same as if we were back in time and seeing African Americans chained at the feet and hands with the yokes around their necks. It is the same. Remember that the next time some moron says you are a racist--or uses that post colonial crap or its their culture--it was our culture at one time to beat, rape, imprison, enslave Africans--it was wrong.
Islam is wrong. Period--no ands, ifs, ors, buts about it...doesn't matter if they say its a religion of peace, its a religion of SLAVERY. The fact that they enslave over one half of the population, women, HUMAN BEINGS [and in Islam, the Koran doesn't see women as HUMAN BEINGS--same arguments the white masters used to justify slavery of the African American--they have less brain matter--what Islam says about women--same damn argument]. AND THAT RIGHT THERE--IS ENOUGH TO CONVINCE ME--
bringing this back around to what you said about communications and urbanization, etc...well in Algeria women are working more than the men--but they still are non-human class according to the precepts of Islam. In fact, the country is now wanting to crack down because they don't like the fact that these women are educated and well, they might get too uppity. Some of the older traditionalists--but the thing is--they have no issue with women working making hoards of wealth--because,
that money will belong to the husband, the MASTER. She is just a slave bringing in income on top of all her other slave duties--same thing in Saudi--they are having conflicts over women and work. What do they do--they just find ways to work around it--in other words, they will NEVER CHANGE THEIR WAYS AND BELIEFS TOWARDS INFIDELS AND MURDER AND RAPE AND CHILD MARRIAGE--
there are too many apostates of Islam, that will just come out and say--there IS NO REFORMING ISLAM. It can't be done--you'd have to totally do away with the entire Koran. Its not a religion like Christianity [which has its own misogyny but no where near what Islam has] or Judaism. Even the most fundamentalist of these beliefs--there are wide differences especially in the goals and aspirations and practices. Islam is LEGALISM--NOT ABOUT FAITH--ITS ABOUT LAW.
And that LAW guides every little detail of your life. Any modernization or urbanization or technology will work to further the legalism of Islam, not the other way around. The main danger is though--and why what is often said here [I don't concur with like 100% of the comments but majority yes] but the danger is,
the goal of Islam is to force all people to either convert or die. Its a religion based on violent forced conversions--the whole no compulsion thing--thats the means to tax and persecute and enslave. Sure they have no issue with your being a believer in the books--as long as you're willing to hand over your daughters and sons--and believe me--they won't give you a choice in the matter. And I've seen it--they are one way to your face--its a whole different ballgame--once they are behind closed doors among themselves,
you liberals out there who think they are befriending you, you are the whores and the cattle they one day say they will slaughter. Just know, Hitler too thought God was on his side--he used many quotes from the Bible to justify his death rage on the world, and especially against the Jews. Fascism has that smell of death--like rats in a sewer. As for the people in Islam seeing what others say--majority of them--remember this--are forced to bow down to Islam. Many yes if they could would get away from it--but thats just it--
are we willing to take that risk? If the Jihadists gain the whole world--then those who want to get the hell out--never will be able too. I'd rather take my chances with those fighting this disease in the world then wait for the deliverance of the few White Roses in Islam out there if you know what I mean.
Natasha
Natasha,
What you have said truly sums up the truth about Islam. The problem is that when we have surveys like this one, the Moslims will tell the survey people what THEY want to hear, because they are dealing with a public situation, an opinion poll. What is done in private is a whole different story.
What you have summed up is based on a satan spun production, in other words, "Satanic Vereses".