"The danger for the identity of Europe that is connected with it should not be ignored out of a wrongly understood respectfulness." This has needed to be said for a long time. Will anyone listen?
From the Telegraph (thanks to Twostellas):
The Pope's private secretary has given warning of the Islamisation of Europe and stressed the need for the continent's Christian roots not to be ignored, in comments released yesterday."Attempts to Islamise the West cannot be denied," Monsignor Georg Gaenswein was quoted as saying in an advance copy of the weekly Sueddeutsche Magazin to be published today.
"The danger for the identity of Europe that is connected with it should not be ignored out of a wrongly understood respectfulness," the magazine quoted him as saying.
I have heard similar things from other Christian leaders...e.g. Ravi Zacharias has noted how he fears "the coming Islamic onslaught".
At least WE are listening, and blogging, and telling our friends and coworkers and anyone else who will lsiten, about it and important informative sites like this one.
I will not submit
Let the outrage begin.
And since it's Friday, no doubt the imams will be calling for mass mayhem in response to this insult against islam.
They've got it all wrong. The insult is islam - an insult to the world.
...once upon a time the violent Islamists were taking over Spain...and the wise king booted them out.....we should learn from historys success stories....
once upon a time the violent Islamists were taking over Spain
Meanwhile, other violent Islamists were taking over the Balkan peninsula, and were repulsed only at the gates of Vienna.
The internet is becoming the new watchtower in getting the word out about the truth and dangers of Islam.
Please, Europe, wake up!
As sad as it is, if you don't want to believe in God that is your choice. Even in the light of evidence to the contrary that God exists.
However, European atheists/secularist need to stop attacking Christianity and preventing its practice.
They are only digging thier own grave....
The internet is becoming the new watchtower in getting the word out about the truth and dangers of Islam.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106
Absolutely right. Spread the word people, tell everyone you know, put this websites address in your signature on every forum you use, every blog you post on, everywhere you can - Wake the sleeping giant that is the West - Wake them to the satan that is amongst us, the great cancer that is Islam!!!!
"Please, Europe, wake up!"
At least in Benedict XVI There is one voice in Europe calling for sanity. If only Europe's political leaders would heed the call.
We just talked about this yesterday on another thread.
Atheling and Elric66 - this statement to Europe from the Papacy is simple and direct. We move slowly, but to paraphrase Plato, 'never dismiss progress, no matter how slow.'
The day the Pope states that Islam is not legitimately from Abraham's beliefs and should not be accepted as a 'brother faith' is coming.
The Pope understands. This Pope will stand and deliver. Rock and roll ain't noise pollution. You gotta fight for your right to party. :))
#1 with a bullet.
Oh - and by the way I'm sending this to every priest I know. Yeah!
We are seeing a slow, but aggressive Islamisation of America already,look at what accommodations are being made for Muslim students on numerous campuses, IE prayer rooms,foot baths,extra recess breaks for prayers,separation of Muslim men and women, sensitivity training for us non-muslims, arrows that point to the direction of Mecca for Muslim prayers.
Our US Military Academies have employed unique accommodations, in order to serve an increasing Muslim cadet population. West Point of all American institutions built what is described as a ‘large and spacious prayer room for Muslims’. And in 2006, for the first time in its history, West Point hosted the Islamic celebration of Eid-al-Fitr. Currently, the Muslim population at the academy is placed at less than one percent. Non-Muslim West Point cadets are also said to be experiencing “immersion training” in the Muslim religion. The US Air Force Academy is engaging in ‘Muslim sensitivity training’. CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations), which has voiced its support for terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah, is providing yet additional “sensitivity training” to US Marines. Sensitivity training for our military from a group that supports some of the very terrorist groups who are waging war against the West? Insane. If we only had a Mac Arthur,or a Patton now.
The inherent problem with these special accommodations for Muslims and “sensitivity training sessions” for non-Muslims has nothing, whatsoever, to do with religious tolerance. Instead, it has to do with the teachings of the Islamic culture that a Muslim’s first (and only) loyalty is to the culture and State of Islam. The Koran teaches that a Muslim’s only allegiance is to its teachings and to the “ummah”—Islamic community. “… therefore, loyalty to Islam trumps nation, culture, class, race, language and even family.”
. We in the US accept others’ religious beliefs unless they actively infringe upon our own. Recently, however, Muslims—from the Flying Imams to CAIR’s insistence upon filing lawsuit after lawsuit if Muslims are not given singularly exceptional treatment—have infringed upon all non-Muslims. And they are affecting these breaches of civilized conduct with increasing certainty, force and vigor. As long as any group is allowed to impose itself upon others with no reprisals—it will continue. Brace yourselves, as long as only a few speak out against these outrageous actions, they will continue until their final goals are met. Each of us must now ask the question: “Will I use my voice or remain silent?” While it’s still possible, you may choose to answer in the positive.
The perverted sickness of multiculturalism is slowly stealing away our foundations and our identity.
This is weird to read today. I sent a scathing note to a Catholic magazine, and the diocese, about the lack of action by Catholics - especially the Pope and his appeasement of muslims - while fellow Christians, and others, are slaughtered by muslims.
There are people who really need sanctuary in Europe because their lives are in danger by muslims and the Pope sits by in his palace and does nothing. But, the muslims keep moving in on Europe and getting their way while the Europeans just keep on hating Jews.
Mackie,
". We in the US accept others’ religious beliefs unless they actively infringe upon our own. Recently, however, Muslims—from the Flying Imams to CAIR’s insistence upon filing lawsuit after lawsuit if Muslims are not given singularly exceptional treatment—have infringed upon all non-Muslims. And they are affecting these breaches of civilized conduct with increasing certainty, force and vigor. As long as any group is allowed to impose itself upon others with no reprisals—it will continue. Brace yourselves, as long as only a few speak out against these outrageous actions, they will continue until their final goals are met. Each of us must now ask the question: “Will I use my voice or remain silent?” While it’s still possible, you may choose to answer in the positive."
Until there is another attack on America, which I predict will happen, then the rage against all things Muslims will be so big that it will explode.
A Plague On Both Houses - concerning your comment, Islam is not "legitimately" an Abrahamic religion (like Judaism and Christianity) because -
Mohammed is a big fat liar, right? There is no "Allah" but the pre-Islamic pagan moon deity, Mohammed plagiarized from The Bible and made up Islam?
Do you know that if all of the repetitions that occur in the koran, such as the story of Moses re-told 27 times (!) in the koran, that said koran would be as thin as a reed? Mo only knew a coupla stories being illiterate, and had to re-tell them numerous times to add "bulk" to the big fat lie koran.
....the Pope sits by in his palace and does nothing.
Whatever... The article is in front of you but you choose words of hate.
My guess is the contempt you obviously hold for the Pope and the Catholic Church is the same contempt held by many Europeans. This same ignorance, hate and contempt are what is getting Europe in this whole mess.
This is pure conjecture, but I often wonder if the force of Islam is going to be Europe's chastisement for abandoning its Christian roots.
Pope Benedict was picked by Our Lord for a reason; it wasn’t by chance.
He is warning Europe. His prophetic warnings about Turkey and the E.U., his September speech in Regensburg and his continual call to the E.U. not to abandon its Christian roots will be remembered.
Better late than too late.
The Pope should now invite "the first Protestants, the Muslims, to return to the fold".
That's what he gets paid for.
Having read a good portion of Pope Benedict's writings, while he was still a Cardinal, one finds him to be VERY well thought out and intelligent.
The Pope's role is one of unity and peace, but I also see that this Pope, at least from his writings, has a very special concern for Europe, and indeed of authentic democracy. He has been concerned that Christian roots / Christian morality needs to be at the foundation of democracy in order for it to work properly. Compassion, love, desiring the best good for your fellow man and yourself. This foundation has slowly crumbled in Europe, and now in American too I'm afraid. In its place "progress" has been placed as the new idol, but a "progress" where? There is no direction, no sense of the heritage of Europe or American (Catholic Christianity in the case of Europe / Protestant Christianity in the case of America) and meanwhile Islam has arisen once again. Islam, as perverted as it is, does indeed have a strong religious / moral bearing, an evil one yes, but one none-the-less. Thanks to the lack of Christian foundations in America the Left is only to happy to allow Islam to seep in and replace Christianity. Worse yet.. we all know where Islam leads. At least anybody with an ounce of sense and a good history book.
As an American I weep for our constitution. As a Christian I weep for the loss of compassion, of forgiveness, of love of other, that we have lost as a country.
Adobe
I don't see criticism of the Pope's silence as words of hate.
This story is about the Pope's secretary and does not provide the full context in which the statements were made. Is the secretary speaking for and on behalf of the Pope? If so why an emissary? Perhaps review of the entire article will reveal. Until we see a clearer proclamation from the Pope the criticism is fair.
On a different note though, you also plead
"Please, Europe, wake up!"
I would add my own,
"Please, America Wake Up, Europe is calling!"
To this day I have not heard a single politician hint of the disaster for Europe, and the implications towards the U.S.(economic or military), should muslim majorities develop in european nations.
It is not on the radar of any presidential candidate either, republican or democrat. Not a peep.
It is not that there aren't sufficent materials to learn from. We have books that seem to be doing quite well, America Alone (Steyn), The West's last Chance (Blankley), Eurabia (Ye'or) and While Europe Sleeps (B Bower) and probably I few more.
People are obviuosly reading these books yet not a single politician in the U.S. dares to suggest the negative implications.
Until we start treating the "war on terror" and its' epicenter, tarbaby Iraq and its Al Qaeda immigrants, as NOT being the center of the jihadist universe, it will coninue to be ignored by the powers that be, and powers that wannabe.
Don't cry Monkeywho this isn't Argentina and you're not Eva Peron.
Think, talk, write and fight for your right. Freedom has never been free. I recently took a trip to the historical sites on the Eastern Seaboard and I realize the people we call Founding Fathers and patriots were always outgunned and outnumbered. They took a huge chance and put everything at risk. Some had substantial fortunes and interests in the status quo, but they looked to the future. I thank them for that. I owe them the effort of doing what I can to maintain what has been built upon the foundation they laid.
Don't cry - do try. Put your shoulder to it, man!
Accem Ezimota - your point is well taken, but Tears for Fears won't do a thing. Cry if you must, but a few salty tears will be lost in the Islamic tide if tears alone are the response.
Shoring up the dykes will do more to keep the salt water out.
Accem Ezimota - your point is well taken, but Tears for Fears won't do a thing. Cry if you must, but a few salty tears will be lost in the Islamic tide if tears alone are the response.
Shoring up the dykes will do more to keep the salt water out.
adobe is way too quick to defend the Pope. Hate?
I take that as a complament.
How about REALITY! He may be the Pope but God will still condemn him in the end for allowing Christians and Jews to suffer under Islam in countries all over the Middle East
We will all be judged in the end, you, me and everyone reading this. I would really stay clear on saying how final judgment is carried out. Or how any actions of any Pope fit into God's plan.
for failing to condemn in forthright
I will repost this: He is warning Europe. His prophetic warnings about Turkey and the E.U., his September speech in Regensburg and his continual call to the E.U. not to abandon its Christian roots will be remembered.
In addition, by calling Christians to be true to their faith, by calling Europeans to embrace the Christian heritage they have, he is battling Islam. By being a true Christian one by their actions rejects the tenants of Islam.
I can't think of a better way to prepare onesself against the theological innacuracies of Islam then by teaching and practicing authentic Christianity.
I don't see criticism of the Pope's silence as words of hate.
I appreciate your response. Looking at the entirety of the thread it is deep in sarcasm and several obvious cheap shots are contained within it. Whether its hate or not, its hardly constructive criticism. In nindsight probably contempt would have been a better word to use.
This story is about the Pope's secretary and does not provide the full context in which the statements were made. Is the secretary speaking for and on behalf of the Pope? If so why an emissary?
I do not have answers to all of your questions, however as a practicing Catholic (not a CINO), it seems to be that the context it pretty clear, he is calling upon Europe to embrace its Christian roots.
Accem Ezimota-
(Nice tag name, but a little backwards, perhaps?)
The cry we need at present is the battlecry.
The Pope should call Islam a late gnostic heresy which should now return to the Christian fold, with Mohammad demoted to the status of a Job or an Ezekial.
And considered a flawed, sinful human, like Solomon or David, and not a model for any behavior.
But openly named by the Pope as a mortal warning against lust and excess and hubris and and violence.
Benedict has a lot of catching up to do.
Islam is over-running the West.
Time to take off the gloves.
And defend the faith.
And our Civilization.
Accem Ezimota - I don't think it's over yet. I think we will eventually get to that point but we move slowly. We'll pay a heavy price but in the end that's what will move us to do what's necessary and part of what's necessary in the end game is in the riddle of your name. :))
Evidence of intelligent life on earth.
Accem:
You are a hateful person. To say that the Pope will go to hell for "allowing Christians and Jews to suffer under Islam" is delusional and idiotic.
MUSLIMS are responsible for that suffering, not the Pope.
You are judgemental in the true evil sense that Jesus condemned.
Vicious, lying, deceitful... SHAME ON YOU.
Accem Ezimota-
You may not be able to lure daily-Koranically-brainwashed and culturally-mesmerized Muslims away from Islam and Mohammad in one fell swoop.
But, by first demoting their "prophet", as you bring them back into the Christian fold, you may be able to eject him eventually.
("Job", who wasn't a "prophet", technically, and his example as a sinner, is more what I meant by giving Mohammad a place in the ancient lineage of the faith, as an uninfluential and apochryphal figure.)
At present, the Church seems to de facto accept that Islam is "another Abrahamic faith", of apparent equal value to Christianity or Judaism.
So it is the Pope who needs to shift this evaluation, first, to: "not an equal but an offshoot Christian heresy". And then work to deprogram the Mohammedan influences among wavering Muslims before asking them for the massive step of denying Mohammad's worth at all. (And to call him nothing more than a weak, sinful and deluded man.)
You have to lure them onto the path, using their own beliefs, to overcome their resistence.
If the Pope simply called for Muslims to immediately convert, and claimed that Islam is a Demonic Lie and Mohammad an agent of Satan, I don't think this would tempt many Muslims to anything but a harder Jihad.
We have to fight them in a way that will weaken and defeat them, not energize and utterly alienate them.
Benedict needs to call them to return out of Love.
This battle is spiritual, psychological and by force of arms.
We need to outwit the Jihadists as well as outgun them.
Accem Ezimota wrote:
"Anyone notice how quick some Catholics are to fight over their Pope and Catholic doctrines? It is so frequent on message boards. It is no wonder that the Protestants in Europe had to fight so many long centuries for their freedom from Catholicism. They are almost as bad as Muslims in this respect. It really is pointless to even engage them."
Stay on topic of "tears for the fallen from Islam". You were doing well, with some "minor" corrections from the community, until you blathered the nonsense in your offering above.
For the longest Europe has wanted no part of "God", so why should He protect them, perhaps He is giving them over to thier enemies.
The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
A_Plague_on_Both_Houses
Its a good first step. I pray he continues
Early on in his papacy, Benedict showed promise for being a stout defender of our Judeo-Christian heritage, only to retract in the face of a Muslim firestorm (a reference to his quoting a 14th century Byzantium bishop who highlighted Islam's propensity for violence...and subsequently apologizing for having done so).
One wonders why the Pope used Gaenswein to be his point-man on this issue? Is he still reeling from his earlier about-face? Furthermore, is the statement an isolated event, or can we expect a sustained effort from the Vatican to alert the Western world to the mortal peril it faces?
Time will tell.
When the Pope first started talking about Islamic aggression in his famous speech I was happy for it proved he was getting the message. However after that speech it has all been down hill. He did the Turkey trip, did a semi-apology to the Islamic world then has spent the last few month obsessing on Protestant Christians, Orthodox Christians, and Jews. I don't blame Catholics for the Pope lack of action. Listen I get the whole we disagree thing but this is not the time for the Pope to be obessing about the reformation which as far as history is concerned was a good thing. The Newtonian revolution could have only occured in a protestant reformed world where the church authority had been weakened.
The Pope, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Hindus, Atheist, etc etc have bigger fish to fry then this but like so many others I think he is scared.
Thus he goes after targets that don't hit back. It did prove one thing however. Did you notice after the Pope said the Protestants were not real christians that NO protestants were burning effigies of the pope or rioting in the street unlike the muslims who one bad word sends them into a complete frenzy of destruction.
Accem,
Christians in the West are not inherently more informed about the threat of Islam than anyone else. Your call to arms of all religions to band together to "defeat" Islam is laughable. Your assignation of blame on the organized Catholic church, with the Pope being destined for hell for inaction, is bordering on the surreal. The man has hardly gotten his feet wet and he has already been critical of Islam. A call for non-Muslims worldwide to eradicate Islam, by physical means I assume you mean, implies a moral adulteration down to the level of the Islamists that we currently suffer from.
Be critical of Catholicism if you wish. Be critical of certain Christian sects or all of them if it suits you. Your particular faith is of no relevance here, with the exception of you being allowed to practice it freely in your home and in your church. You should not be allowed to impose nor to be imposed upon, for that is the maximum degree of influence that any religion should enjoy in western secular society as a whole. In that regard, Islam stands alone.
Calling for a neo-crusade, one with an army comprised of multiple ideologies collectively against Islam would make a great work of fiction, maybe even a best-seller, but it's application is not realistically feasible.
There are many fronts in this war against Islam and many vital endeavors to undertake in order to be successful and free ourselves from Islam's oppresive nature. Atomizing Mecca however, is not one of them.
The last time Islam was considered a threat to the Catholic Church, the Pope and Vatican ignored the threat. The Pope ignored the cries for help from his people that were being killed in the Middle East at the hands of the muslims.
The Pope ignored Islam for over 400 years. It was not until Islam was knocking on the doors of the Vatican that the Pope wanted to save his butt.
So will the Pope wait another 400 years?
I am afraid that although Benedict may want to deal with the issue, politics and money will over-ride him dealing with the issue. i.e. If Benedict makes a comment against islam then Catholics are killed across the world. We saw it over his speech.
Problem is, if he doesn't make a comment against islam Christians are killed across the world.
Benedict would not win the war of words or beliefs, but he would bring knowledge to the people that have been blinded by media and politicians. Empowering the people with truth would awaken the masses.
People are starving for truth. People have been lied to for so long that it becomes hard to recognize what 'truth' is. That is why everyone believes everything and there is no moral clarity.
awake - I think the endgame requires atomization. To finish it the temple must be destroyed and the idol smashed just as it used to be in the olde tymes.
You destroy the enemy's means to fight on the battlefield.
You destroy the enemy's will to fight in his temple.
We need to do both. If we don't destroy the idol and the temple we won't arrive at a conclusion. This is why the Crusades failed. They attacked the problem on the fringes instead of removing the problem at its source.
I can't agree with some of the comments made about Pope Benedict XVI's "inactivity."
Last month, the status of Christians in Iraq was very much on the agenda in his meeting with George W. Bush . Benedict also has persistently attempted to rouse Europe out of its historical, cultural amnesia, to bring it back to its Christian roots out of the morass of cultural relativism. He has been very clear in distinguishing between respect for others of different religious backgrounds, such as Moslems, and making the false equation that all faiths are the same. He has cautioned the EU against the admission of Turkey without first having language put into the EU constitution recognizing Europe's Christian heritage. He made his Regensburg speech, carefully defining his belief that humanity needs both faith and reason, and also using to good purpose the now famous words first uttered by Emperor Manuel II Paleologus, to challenge Islam to explain how Islam can claim to be a proponent of brotherhood while adhering to the doctrine of violent jihad. And afterwards, despite death threats, Benedict went to Turkey and met with the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew.
The Pope does not appear to be simply "sitting in his palace." He very likely isn't signing on to many very blog sites either. Instead, he is talking the talk and then walking the walk.
It is an important start. Christians and especially the Catholic and Orthodox churches need to find their strength. They have not been challenged in hundreds of years. They have grown obese and lethargic. Furthermore, the churches need to start speaking up aggressively for the Christians in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, and sadly too, the half-dozen that remain un-slaughtered in Iraq.
Accem Ezimota,
Adobe was defending the Pope, and presumably his faith, as a direct response to another poster's erroneous "palatial inert lollygagging" comment about the Pope. I agree with Chatillon above. Benedict so far,has proven to be more vigilant and outspoken against the creeping menace of the socio-political weapon that Islam poses, than his predecessor. When we call for religious institutions to inform and act to protect the basic human rights of people we give credence to the Islamist movement, whether intended or not.
Your semi-rant against Catholics earlier in this thread did nothing more than help to perpetuate the obstacle for which you expressed we all need to overcome, in order to join in the collective battle against Islamic jihadist ideology. It is similar to the atheistic position we experience here from time to time. Think about that.
Plague,
You seem a bit feisty today. The problem has gotten noticably worse since the failed Crusades. Islamic genocide will never come to fruition. Islam will be bludgeoned and beaten back to a more subservient position for awhile, then attempt a takeover again after enough time has passed where people forget what it is all about. Islam has expreienced these periods of ebb and flow throughout it's history. The message of Islam doesn't change, just the degrees of it's influence.
Europe might have Christian roots, but, in this day and age, few practice it. There are more Christians in China than in whole of Europe.
The only time the Europeans will face the problem of Islam is when their pubs and dance clubs close down by the Muslims. Then it will be too late.
awake - you seem to be advocating fighting to a stalemate.
Chatillon,
Well said. These people who complain that the Pope does "nothing" are ignoramuses and fools. They haven't a clue about what the Pope is saying or doing. Instead they sit in their cushy berth in front of their computers and make stupid, naive remarks.
They only demonstrate how ignorant and bigoted they are.
"ALL leaders in ALL Christian organizations face condemnation for failing to directly confront the evil of Islam and stand up for the Cross and for Christ. Shame on all of them. Too little too late won't cut it either."
Posted by: Accem Ezimota
Right on Brother!!!!!
I can't even get the Christians in my church to start paying attention.
But I won't give up!!!!!!!!!
Islamophobia can only grow because "the blood always flows where the muhammadan goes."
Accem, alaska, r_not:
When's the last time you read an essay by the Pope? What's the last book you read by him? When's the last time you went to Church-related websites to read what's going in the Vatican?
Nada, I'm willing to bet. You see, you're LAZY. You want the Pope to make sound bytes for your lazy little brain. You want to hear the same kind of dumbed down, Dr. Seuss level remarks from the Pope that politicians and journalists make because you're too stupid and ignorant to understand anything unless it's being pounded into your teensy weensy little brain.
You haven't a clue.
Can't refute the fact that you are lazy and uninformed, can you?
Accem Ezimota,
Adobe responded, albeit in a hyper-sensitize way in my opinion, to a posters incorrect assessment of the Pope as a "do-nothing". I agree with your assessment that he is not doing enough, and that realization simply lumps him in with everyone else in the world currently.
Your response to Adobe's response, on the otherhand, was directed at "some Catholics", an obviously intended slight, not being one yourself. Those are the words that you chose, so deal with it.
While you are digesting that, please explain to me how the Pope, tucked away in the Vatican can use his influence to alter the policies of secular governments in Europe and the US. If secular governments afford the Catholic church no power in government, unless I missed some big legislation recently, then why is it the Pope's ultimate failure that our current secular governments are doing nothing to combat Islam. They are currently, on the contrary, ceding to it instead.
You can't solve a religious ideology problem, Islam and it's attack on western secularism, with religious ideology, unless the Crusades in your opinion are in short order.
Okay kids. There have been some good things said here today and some silly things. That the Pope's private secretary is raising concern about the Islamization of Europe is a good thing, although a baby step. The words coming out of the Vatican need to be much stronger. And I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but I read a story here on Jihad Watch late last year about the Pope's trip to Turkey last November and how he went into the mosque there and prayed Muslim prayers in a Muslim way. If as the head of the Catholic Church and as Christ's vicar on earth, what the heck was he doing giving creedence to a Muslim ceremony, one that defy's that Jesus Christ is God and one that is from an ideology that demand Christians abandon their faith and submit to practices that are completely against the ten commandments and Church teachings.
As a practicing Catholic, I am obligated to pray for the Pope and I do, but even St. Athanasius said that if the Pope is wrong about a certain issue, we are obligated to follow our Catholic conscience and pray for him that he gets back on the right track. Going into a mosque and praying in the Muslim fashion is a slap in the face to Our Lord and does nothing but confuse Catholics and Christians as to whether Islam is okay or not.
BTW, before Vatican II the Church was clear about it's teaching against Islam and had many wounds from past battles. I don't think it was any accident that Charles Martel, Jan Sobieski, Don Juan of Austria or Isabella of Spain were all practicing Catholics and avowed foes of Mohammadanism.
We Catholics who know our faith and the history of our church understand that defense of it against this foe was abandoned in favor of the novelties and excesses that came out of Vatican II, especially the false ecumenism that has done nothing to unite the world's faiths but has driven Catholics away in droves and led us to the mess we now find ourselves in. The goal of the modernists in weakening the Catholic faith with their ridiculous and sweeping "reforms" that came out of Vatican II has been accomplished. If the Pope is disoriented as to which way is up on the question of Islam it is understandable, especially when we remember that he was one of those church leaders who helped institute those changes. But it is a phenomenon of human nature that when we've done something that is wrong and are now suffering the consequences of it, many of us will go back to the God we abandoned and ask for His help. I pray that the Pope sees the errors of teaching that Islam and Catholicism are on the same plane and will now stand firmly for the truth because he will have a lot to answer for, as will we all, if he doesn't make the stand against Islam and if we don't back him up with our support and prayers.
Plague,
Just trying to be realistic. I'd love for the West to "win" against Islam, but seeing that there is no discernable "win" to be had in Iraq, a microcosmic example of the Islamic world, I am skeptical of it occuring, as we understand the term, globally, unless we acknowledge and embrace what you have professed earlier in this thread.
I am not saying that I personally do not condone it as a means to a victorious end. I am just stating the obvious, that the probability of that outcome is highly unlikely, similar to the liklihood of an Islamic reformation occurring.
In chess, a stalemate is a forced end to the game, when no valid move options are left. That is not such a bad premise, especially in light of the fact that Islam will most assuredly not voluntarily agree to a draw.
Regards,
awake
"but I read a story here on Jihad Watch late last year about the Pope's trip to Turkey last November and how he went into the mosque there and prayed Muslim prayers in a Muslim way."
Explain that. Provide the link, please.
Izzy wrote:
"We Catholics who know our faith and the history of our church understand that defense of it against this foe was abandoned in favor of the novelties and excesses that came out of Vatican II, especially the false ecumenism that has done nothing to unite the world's faiths but has driven Catholics away in droves and led us to the mess we now find ourselves in."
So very true these words are.
I will do my best to respond to Accem Ezimota, as I tend to be the center of his scorn...
'....the Pope sits by in his palace and does nothing.' [This sentence really sets adobe off and he is going to let him have it]
It was a hurtful sentence; it cannot be read any other way. You brackets are also meant to be hurtful.
I do not see how this proposed alliance of all "non-muslims" you suggest will ever take hold when you and others in one breath want to fight Islam and in that same breath attack the Church that I love dearly.
'Whatever... [what is this, a high school phrase]
Its meant to point out the silliness of his comment.
The article is in front of you but you choose words of hate. [here is where adobe dives in head first and accuses the commenter of HATE,
Again, I guess a better word would be contempt. I have already said that to another poster.
I guess you kick a dog when its down also??
...clearly an overreaction on the part of adobe.
If more Catholics would "overreact" or be "hypersensitive" like myself, we wouldn't have millions of abortions each year with the help of Catholic politicans. States which have high Catholic populations wouldn't be legalizing homosexual marrage. More people would be outraged over the increased sexualization of our culture.
But I guess I am just being "hypersensitive" about it all....
It is he who is hating, hating the commenter who dared intimate that the Pope is not being aggressive enough in this area, something that cannot truthfully be denied.]
I don't hate, I will pray for you tonight. However, I will speak strongly in defense of Catholicsm and the Pope. Many secularist label this as hate speech, so maybe thats why you think I hate???
CONTEMPT for the Pope AND the Catholic Church! Maybe the commenter hates ALL Catholics too and wishes that they all be killed and burn in Hell for eternity?!?!]
I don't know what to make of this comment of your except that it's complete nonsense. I would appreciate it if you would not speculation about what I am thinking...
'This is pure conjecture, but I often wonder if the force of Islam is going to be Europe's chastisement for abandoning its Christian roots.' [While a valid thought chances are VERY GOOD that adobe was one who CONDEMNED WITH HATRED, Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, prominent Protestants, for making similar comments about America after 9/11.]
Actually, Fr. John Corapi stated the chastisement nature of 9/11 in one of his sermons on EWTN. He is, in my opinion only, one of the greatest priests in the USA.
check him out at:
http://www.fathercorapi.com/
Sorry, but a few timid comments do not a prophetic warning make....
Well, I guess you can choose to ignore him and mock him. It's your choice. He is the only one I hear out of Europe saying anything....
Pong,
It would be helpful if you explained where you got your quotation.
“ The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.”
It was, of course, taken from the documents of Vatican 2, dealing with non-Christian religions.
You left out the concluding paragraph which I will add.
“ Although in the course of the centuries many quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this most sacred Synod urges all to forget the past and to strive sincerely for mutual understanding. On behalf of all mankind, let them make common cause of safeguarding and fostering social justice, moral values, peace, and freedom.”
A footnote is linked to the word esteem
“Students of the history of relations between Christians and Moslems will find this section a remarkable change in the Church’s approach. One thinks inevitably of the Crusades (but note that there were Moslem crusaders as well as Christian.) Those were ideological wars. This Council, as it also makes clear in the Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the Modern World, wants to disassociate itself from war.”
Another footnote linked to the words “Maker of heaven and earth”
“Cf. St.Gregory seventh, letter 21 to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauretania.”
Personally, I think much of this was far too liberal. Someone like Belloc made very valid points about Islam which the second Vatican Council did not adequately address.
If you want to know more about belloc’s views on islam,a good place to start would be here
“The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed”
Is available at
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT
Last point on Vatican 2,
On Reviving the old Latin Mass which, it is alleged, is inherently anti-semitic
The Post Vatican 2 mass reads “ Let us pray for the Jews, that the face of the Lord our God may shine on them so that they too recognize the redeemer of all, Jesus Christ, our Lord.”
Prior to Vatican 2 the text read as follows
“lift the veil covering the hearts of Jews so that they may recognize Jesus Christ Our Lord.”
Ideas that the Vatican plan to revive the Latin Mass “ despite concerns that parts of it are anti-Semitic” is arguably misleading. It has been stated that the Good Friday Latin Mass referred to Jews as “perfidious” but I am informed that the traditional Roman Rite is uses the word "perfidis" which means unfaithful. It could be seen as part of a prayer that Jews would convert to Christianity, hardly surprising coming from the Pope.
"but I read a story here on Jihad Watch late last year about the Pope's trip to Turkey last November and how he went into the mosque there and prayed Muslim prayers in a Muslim way."
Explain that. Provide the link, please.
Posted by: atheling at July 27, 2007 4:32 PM
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/014326.php
We win when we actually start fighting.
Okay kids.
I can't speak for others but I have a mortgage and car payment, work for a living and am trying to raise a young son in this morally bankrupt world, so I think the description "kid" is condensending to all of us who work hard to provide for our families.
That the Pope's private secretary is raising concern about the Islamization of Europe is a good thing, although a baby step. The words coming out of the Vatican need to be much stronger.
It's nice that Pope Benedict has in some small way met your lowest of expectations.
And I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but I read a story here on Jihad Watch late last year about the Pope's trip to Turkey last November and how he went into the mosque there and prayed Muslim prayers in a Muslim way.
I agree with a post above, please provide a link for your accusation.
If as the head of the Catholic Church and as Christ's vicar on earth, what the heck was he doing giving creedence to a Muslim ceremony, one that defy's that Jesus Christ is God and one that is from an ideology that demand Christians abandon their faith and submit to practices that are completely against the ten commandments and Church teachings.
Have you read any of Pope Benedicts books? His encyclicals? Here is a good start:
Without Roots: The West, Relativism, Christianity, Islam.
Truth And Tolerance: Christian Belief And World Religions
His encyclical God is Love is a theological powerhouse, and it was in one way written as a response to Islam. Its clear by the very first paragraph.
He fully understands the implications of what he does. Read his material, then judge the man if you feel that is your role.
If the Pope is disoriented as to which way is up on the question of Islam it is understandable, especially when we remember that he was one of those church leaders who helped institute those changes.
Are you serious, its clear you have not read any of his writings. If Pope Benedict, with the depth of his Chrisitan Theological writings does not meet your standards, I am afraid that no Pope ever will.
I pray that the Pope sees the errors of teaching that Islam and Catholicism are on the same plane and will now stand firmly for the truth because he will have a lot to answer for
He doesn't teach that.
Just out of curiosity, does any Priest in whatever diocese you are in meet your standards??? Is anyone adequate, or is everyone tainted by Vatican II??
It seems to be the height of pride when so many pre-Vatican II people think they have it right and the whole Church currently has it wrong.
Atheling,
This was the link to JW that I started following regarding the Pope's visit to Turkey.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014217.php#comments
This link is similar to the one I read back in November. I didn't save it and going back and looking for links with posts on JW, they just aren't there anymore. But this says basically the same thing that I read back then.
Pope Prays with Muslim Cleric at Turkey Mosque
"At the mosque, the pope removed his shoes and put on white slippers. Then he walked beside Mustafa Cagrici, the head cleric of Istanbul. Facing the holy city of Mecca — in the tradition of Islamic worship — Cagrici said: "Now I'm going to pray." Benedict, too, bowed his head and his lips moved as if reciting words."
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20061201/23795.htm
This is a great explanation of just what the effect is that the Pope's walking into that mosque and praying with the Muslim mufti has on Catholics and other Christians.
The Pope at the Mosque – A Scandal
Marian T. Horvat, Ph.D.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/m012rpRatzingerInMosque.html
'First, he went to the mosque.
Second, before entering it, he removed his shoes.
Third, he humbly received “instruction” from Mustafa Cagriche on the basics of Muslim prayer.
Fourth, he meekly followed the Muslim’s command to turn toward “the Kiblah” – the direction of Mecca. Then the prayer began.
Fifth, he did not even make the Sign of the Cross or give any external sign that he was making a Catholic prayer. On the contrary, he imitated the mufti, crossing his hands on his stomach in a classical Muslim prayer attitude known as “the posture of tranquility.” Eyes closed, they prayed together for several minutes.'
Awake - thanks for your reasoned explanation of a stalemate strategy, but I can't accept that. It's realistic to attack the system along a whole series of dimensions simultaneously and we haven't began to do that in earnest today.
Here's a 'to do' list that lists combat as a dimension, but only one of many.
http://foehammer.net/2007/06/anvil-spotlight-project-samson.html
The belief system cannot stand a multi-dimensional assault by combined modern forces. No way.
"Simply SAYING IT, OVER AND OVER AGAIN, without lifting a single sword or firing a single gun would be a GREAT start in the so-called "war" we are supposedly engaged in."
Posted by: Accem Ezimota
------------------------------------
Regarding this an other above statements accusing the Pope of somehow being inactive... I will quote Stalin: "Just how many divisions does the Pope have?"
The power of Pope Benedict is precisely through the influence of his words and the example of his moral authority. He has been using that power constantly and sometimes the liberal media can't ignore him, no matter how much they want to.
In just two short years, this blessed pope has done more to warn Europe about the Islamic threat than any other world leader in the last 200 years. He is also working vigorously to unite Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy in a common front against both jihad and against the vapid mondialist secularism that would ultimately surrender all of Christendom.
One should go to the sources and read the statements coming from the Holy See itself. Also examine the positive attitude toward Benedict from the Patriarchs of Constantinople and Moscow as well as the Coptic Pope of Alexandria. Five years ago, it was rare for the official statements of the Patriarch and Synod of Moscow to say anthing positive about the Vatican. Since the election of Benedict XVI, all of that has changed radically. This Pope is probably the greatest scholar to sit in Saint Peter's chair since Saint Leo the Great. He clearly deserves our support.
Adobe, you said:
"It seems to be the height of pride when so many pre-Vatican II people think they have it right and the whole Church currently has it wrong."
It seems to be the height of ignorance when you who seem to be an avowed Catholic know nothing about the Church or faith you purport to defend before the year 1960. Nobody here said that the whole Church has it wrong. But you are not telling the truth, sir, if you try to sell the idea that the world is much better off since Vatican II took place. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You mentioned abortion. Since 1973 over 50 million people have been murdered by it in the U.S. The laws making that a woman's right and part of our constitution happened roughly a decade AFTER Vatican II was going on. The decline in morals in our society and our culture is staggering. Kids in school are taught that sex is great and their right, without teaching them about the consequences or their responsibilities regarding it. Kids murdering other kids via gangs has become an epidemic. This did not go on when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's in any way that even slightly resembles the shape or form it does now.
Catholics and Protestants have fallen away in droves, DROVES, from their respective religions and don't even have a clue what the Church teaches about faith and morals because they are just not interested. My younger brother-in-law came to stay with me in the summer back about twenty years ago when he was going to my Catholic alma mater. We had a discussion about mortal sin and he had no idea what it was, and this after going to Catholic schools for ten years. My sister-in-law, who was born after I was married, also went to twelve years of Catholic school and vehemently defends her right to an abortion she had in her early twenties. Now how can that be? If the Church is doing such a bang up job of protecting, defending and teaching we should be having less abortions, murders, illicit sexual activity and the like, not more.
One reason Islam is making such headway in our world is because the Catholic Church has been effectively neutered, as I've said here before. The Church used to be the biggest opponent of Communism before Vatican II, but that was effectively squelched by the Moscow Vatican Pact, when an agreement was made in August of 1962 in Metz, France, two months before the opening of Vatican II when Cardinal Eugene Tisserant, who was representing Pope John XXII met with a representative of the Russian Orthodox Church and it was agreed that the Catholic Church would no longer say anything negative about Communism. This was ostensibly done so that the Russian Orthodox Church would attend Vatican II, although I can't for the life of me understand why a group that opposes the authority of the Pope would be needed there. Imagine, the Church would no longer oppose an ideology that killed an estimated 70 million people by Stalin alone. And if you say it never happened, then explain why the prayers at the foot of the altar, the ones said at the end of every mass before Vatican II, for the conversion of Russia where thrown by the wayside when the new mass came in? Have you ever even heard of them?
I appreciate that you believe so strongly and that you are trying to be a good Catholic. But you have to be willing to look at the whole truth, not just the truth you are comfortable with.
Plague wrote:
"The belief system cannot stand a multi-dimensional assault by combined modern forces. No way."
Agreed to a point. Those things should be instituted. Atomizing Mecca and obliterating Islam and all it's adherents is the part of the equation that just doesn't pan out. Military use to achieve specific goals, definately, but unless you're willing outlaw Islam globally and to kill all Muslims who don't abandon the ideology, there is no "winning" in the absolute sense. There is no head to cut off as there was with Hitler and Naziism in Germany.
If they breathe they will hate us. It is that simple. The question is, to what degree or impact their assumed continued hatred of the West has in an adversarial way to us.
Completely removing Islamic ideology from the world we live in just ain't gonna happen.
Isabella:
Thanks for the links. I find it interesting that the second one failed to mention that the Pope removed his shoes and then PUT ON WHITE SLIPPERS. Muslims go barefoot. He didn't. Secondly, what is the author attempting to imply by the use of the word "meekly" in the second link? Pope Benedict, by many accounts, has been described as diffident, scholarly, and gentle. That's his personality. Does the author of this article know that?
He also did not remove his pectoral cross when he was inside the mosque. Wearing a cross while in prayer is hardly like "praying like a Muslim" isn't it?
I can see how people would consider it scandalous for the Pope to pray with these Muslims. Likewise the Pharisees were scandalized when Jesus ate supper with tax collectors and whores.
I can be assured that the intention of the Pope's prayers in that Mosque were NOT LIKE THOSE OF THE MUSLIMS THERE.
Accem Ezimota,
I need no nap. You need to watch loose comments by yourself which belie your disdain for the Pope and Catholicism in general, lest you be prepared to face adversarial remarks in the future towards your position.
As far as your claim that,
"As for destroying Mecca, the point is to destroy an inanimate object rather than millions of human beings currently enslaved under Islam. You have to break the system."
Yeah, that should do the trick and really get the ball rolling, huh?
"innocent comments"???
Did you read the first comment?
Yes, I will attack stupid, false, ignorant and foolish remarks about the Pope anc the Church. If you don't like it, then go take a hike.
Deathmatch: Pope Benedict vs. Osama bin Laden. I bet Benedict can take him.
Accem,
With every subsequent comment you make, you reaffirm my position and drive your already tenuous position further into the red. I was born and raised a Catholic, if that fact matters in this discussion, which it doesn't, at least from my POV.
I am a Catholic, born and raised, non-practicing, for identification purposes only as Hugh would put forth, and I assure you that I take no personal offense to your criticism of the Pope and Catholics. That being said, be wary of your comments indicting a sect of Christianity and it's elected soverign. I actually linked the current Pope visiting the mosque, from the JW archives, in this very thread, so there can be no accusation of me that I am a Catholic fanatic, in any way.
Catholics, for your information, are the majority denomination in the pool of "Christians" worldwide. Heed some good advice. The next time a loose statement beckons to be revealed, think before you type.
Other anti-Islamists, namely adobe took exception to your initial comments. You speak of unity of and action by Christians against this collective threat but your words suggest otherwise.
It's just good advice, take it or leave it. But make no mistake, you have neither won this debate, nor made yourself look intelligent in the process. Everybody makes mistakes. Those who admit them, albeit minor ones, is the quality which defines a man. I will respond to your weak attempt to change your recorded written words in this thread no longer. That is the basis of what Christ was preaching during his mortal lifetime...forgiveness.
Now, start practicing what you intended to preach.
Regards,
awake
I am surprised by all the comments pro and con the Catholic Church and the Pope. I wonder if I may introduce another thought at this point. Say the Pope were to make the very strong kinds of comments that most of us would like to hear; what would be the result? I believe the MSM would begin their war of inuendo and mud-slinging against the pontiff. CAIR would be given time to complain that the Pope was causing Muslims to hate Christians. Political analysts would be brought on to tell us that the Pope was causing the radicalization of Muslim youth. The Pope would begin to be characterized as "the hard-line Pope Benedict", etc, etc. The Pope would then become marginalized and his influence would be diminished. He needs to start with this "baby step", this trial balloon, and hopefully others will follow his example of speaking out. Once the momentum gets going the MSM will no longer be able to stifle legitimate criticism of Islam.
Atheling:
“the Pope removed his shoes and then PUT ON WHITE SLIPPERS.”
It was also said that The Pope had his two fingers crossed behind his back entering the mosque.
“I can be assured that the intention of the Pope's prayers in that Mosque were NOT LIKE THOSE OF THE MUSLIMS THERE. “
Of cause not, he was mattering one of Madonna’s songs.
“stupid, false, ignorant and foolish remarks about the Pope anc the Church. If you don't like it, then go take a hike.”
“Can't refute the fact that you are lazy and uninformed, can you?”
“You see, you're LAZY. You want the Pope to make sound bytes for your lazy little brain.”
With logic and lexicon like that you should think of becoming a Moslem.
You, single-handedly, damaged reputation of Catholics on this blog more then any atheist could manage. Bravo!
Why did the Pope walk into that mosque? What was his purpose? Was it to glorify Jesus Christ? Or was it to humiliate himself in front of the Muslims who demand our humiliation? Would you put a rattlesnake in your bed and then turn the other cheek?
We can make up all the excuses we want but the bottom line is that Pope Benedict had no business going into that mosque, just like he has no business walking into a Protestant church, a Scientology org or a Masonic temple. He is a representative of the truth on earth so to go to places like that mosque where he is not welcome and where he is not preaching a return to the faith, is an exercise in, what, political correctness? He's supposed to be above that, as a representative of God who is above that. His job is to further the glorification of God on this earth and help save the souls of the sheep in his flock. Please tell me how any of that was accomplished in this situation.
I'll say it again. Islam represents true evil on the face of the earth, as is evidenced by it's treatment of women, minorities and any other religion besides Islam. The requirements by Allah to be a "good" Muslim are the exact opposite of what it is to be a good Catholic. By entering the place of worship of this abomination is to validate it's existence and right to be on the earth side by side with the Catholic Church, otherwise he would have said as much. That mentality is my gripe with Vatican II, that in an effort not to offend we don't say anything negative about other people's beliefs. Well why do we gather to post here then? If Islam is as good and as pro-survival and as edifying as the Catholic Church then why don't we just pull the plug on Jihad Watch and call it a day? It's precisely because it is not the same that we come here to find solutions to the problem of Islam insisting on it's right to subject all people on the earth and kill anyone who resists. It is for this reason that the Pope cannot enter that mosque without significant ramifications, including demoralizing the Catholics that he represents. I'm sure the Catholics in the Middle East who have been threatened with death, especially recently, if they do not submit to Islam were pleased as punch to see him walk into that Mosque and pray.
Just for arguments sake, I must state that "pong" might be the most stupid Islamist I personally have ever encountered here on JW/DW.
When Naseem, the dolt that she, he, or they are, eats your lunch in terms of Islamist responses, it is either time to seek a new profession or simply strap on the bomb belt.
In the case of the latter, I have the coordinates ready. Just say the word, when all your worldy affairs are attended to, of course.
Don't keep the virgins waiting. Even they must sleep sometimes...right?
Muslims at West Point? How can that be? If they are true Muslims by definition their loyalty is to Islam uber alles. No matter what they swear on or to, taqiyya gives them an out, as they see it, to be loyal to the Umma yet swear allegiance to the USA. Muslim graduates of the Academy should not be commissioned, unless it is to some job where they do not have the opportunity to do us harm.
According to Scarborough, we cannot trust the CIA. If we also cannot trust the military academies, we are in far deeper du-du than I thought.
Folks, take confort and hope. The Christian faith is going thru a period of massive growth in the global south. Africa, Asia, and Latin America is seeing new members being added. The Christian faith of these folks is conservitive, be it Catholic, Anglican, or Evangelical. Writer Philip Jenkins has been keep tabs on this massive growth. Look to these countries to send missionaries to the west as the west has sent missionaries to these countries so many years ago.
Awake.
“Just for arguments sake, I must state that "pong" might be the most stupid Islamist I personally have ever encountered here on JW/DW.”
How can anybody argue about something you personally have encountered?
Who can argue with you that you did encountered more stupid islamist then I am?
And what is thrown in “for arguments sake”: me being stupid or being an islamist?
Could you explain the reason to call me “islamist”?
As for stupidity, I am not sure. May be you have a point. After all
I could never come up with something as profound as this:
“So very true these words are.”(posted by awake)
profitsbeard - could you explain what you mean by describing Islam as a "late gnostic heresy?"
Of course the heresy of Islam is in no way connected to Abraham. Another lie among the profusion of lies told by Mohammed.
Hey Adobe,
Thanks! As a God fearing - Pope Loveing Catholic :)
I am not edjucated enough to defend the faith as you... You are a true Warrior :)
Thanks again..
But you are not telling the truth, sir, if you try to sell the idea that the world is much better off since Vatican II took place. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I never accused you of lying, but I guess you feel the need to accuse me of lying. A lie is to know the truth fully and willingly distort it. Thats a serious accusations to be throwing around.
Regarding Vatican II, I can only go off of what our Blessed Pope, the whole Church Magisterium and my local Bishop say...
You mentioned abortion. Since 1973 over 50 million people have been murdered by it in the U.S. The laws making that a woman's right and part of our constitution happened roughly a decade AFTER Vatican II was going on.
So the connection you are making is to blame Vatican II for the increased abortions???? Are you kidding me????
Catholics and Protestants have fallen away in droves, DROVES, from their respective religions and don't even have a clue what the Church teaches about faith and morals because they are just not interested.
First point, its not the fault of Vatican II if Protestants have fallen away from their Churches.
Second point, its very easy to pick up a copy of the Cathecism of the Catholic Chruch to find out what the Church teaches about morals. Its a cop-out to say "I didn't hear it on Sunday".
If the Church is doing such a bang up job of protecting, defending and teaching we should be having less abortions, murders, illicit sexual activity and the like, not more.
What about the parents, you letting them of the hook. If I felt that I was in a liberal parish I would no longer go. I will tell my son the truth about the faith, and like me, he will seek out those parishs that teach the truth.
Stop blaming Vatican II for bad parenting by luke-warm Catholics....
One reason Islam is making such headway in our world is because the Catholic Church has been effectively neutered, as I've said here before.
The Holy Spirit is up to the job I guess????
But you have to be willing to look at the whole truth, not just the truth you are comfortable with.
What is the whole truth?? That Vatican II was a big mistake??? That the Holy Spirit got it wrong with Pope Benedict??? That after the 60's the Church established by our Lord Jesus Christ under the guidance of the Holy Spirit has gotten it all worng???
The day the Pope states that Islam is not legitimately from Abraham's beliefs and should not be accepted as a 'brother faith' is coming.
TRUE INDEED.. because it is clear to EVERYONE that this Pope KNOWS..
..including the MoFoes.. they too KNOW that he KNOWS their game.
The longer he remains silent and inactive.. he will be playing into their hand.
They will take it as a sign of intimidation while those of us who KNOW what He knows.. are waiting for a SIGN.. including the many non-Catholics of which I am one!
The longer this Pope remains silent, the longer the peecee MSM are able to ignore this topic.
I think this Pope, if indeed He serves God, MUST come OUT very soon with WHAT He KNOWS.. and bring things to a HEAD.
We have precious little time to waste, People!!
The enemy is getting stronger while we are losing our technological and our military advantage on oh so many fronts!
See moslems studying at OUR schools and gaining our knowledge.. SOWdis and others buying up our media.. buying up our sensitive infrastructure and funding jihadist madrassas and mosks worldwide.
We may still win if this war takes another 50 years to get TRULY HOT... but I'd rather take my chances RIGHT NOW!!
Besides.. I and most of us won't be around 50 years from now.. even if we die of completely 'natural causes'.
Let's ROLL, babies!!!
Adobe,
Ever heard of Our Lady of Fatima? Go back and read what she said back in 1917. Read the warnings and then let go of your defensiveness for five minutes and stop the whining. Since you are all about reading what the Pope writes challenge yourself to go back and read Pope St. Pius X's writings on the danger of Modernism and Liberalism. Then read the Vatican II documents and see if you notice any similarities.
And for the record, I didn't call you a liar, but you do seem to be able to twist other people's words around to make yourself look like the big victim. Please stay on the subject.
BTW, was the Pope going into that mosque last November and praying in the Muslim fashion a pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic move, in your opinion?
Seems to me, Tom, that all above is real close to a waste of time - why do I not see a clear call to simply broadcast the plain truth about all the Muslim religions? There remains in all of you a vestige of RELIGIOUS CORRECTNESS ! Why not simply and authoritatively state that all those religions that take their authority from the Koran, are amoral and illogical and they clearly advocate Crimes Against Humanity [you know, like murder!]. Why is it so hard to just deal with the simple truth? Listen while I say it once again, because it must be said, at base, exactly this way: There is such a thing as an anti-human, deeply flawed to the point of causing mass-psychopathology, mainstream religion - it is this religion that is anti-human and advocating crimes against humanity, and produces mass-psychopathology! Until you all nail it down just like that, we are wasting our energy and time. The Koran, and all those religions who take their authority from it needs to be exposed! Otherwise, practice sticking your butts up in air to save your heads!
Isabellathecrusader,
I do like your posts. But that last statement was almost consistant with the bunk spewed by the Jihadist themselves.
I will revert the question and ask you: What exactly did the Pope do in that mosque?
I mean Sheesh get over it. This Pope has done nothing but state the truth! As far as Vatican II goes... I choose to read the document not just state what liberal's opinions are of the document.... I have notice so much mis-information of that conference that I had to go and read it for myself. I am still reading BTW.
Please read Crossing the Threshold of HOPE... By John Paul on this... It may clear things up a bit...
I will pray for you tonight.. God Bless
"BTW, was the Pope going into that mosque last November and praying in the Muslim fashion a pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic move, in your opinion?"
asked by Isabella above.
---------------------------------
I've watched the video of the Pope's entire visit to the Blue Mosque. He NEVER prayed in the Muslim fashion. In fact, he made no prostration at all in either the Muslim or Christian manner. He simply closed his eyes and silently recited the "Our Father".
This prayer, given to us by the Lord, is appropriate to be prayed anywhere, at any time, with anyone, by the Pope or any other Christian.
From the link above:
"Let us pray for brotherhood and for all humanity," Benedict said in Italian.
The Vatican spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, said the mosque visit was added as a "sign of respect" to Muslims. "A (Christian) believer can pray in any place, even a mosque," Lombardi said, calling it an "intimate, personal prayer."
My Link:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2007/january/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20070119_ambassador-turkey_en.html
what does the phase: An ecumenical journey mean?
"I do like your posts. But that last statement was almost consistent with the bunk spewed by the Jihadist themselves."
How so Weatherob?
You know, it's funny...Jesus said that you will know them by their fruits, meaning by our actions and by what we produce. If you or I went into a mosque the people who saw us go in there would assume that we are at the very least, respectful of Islam, unless we went in with the intention to protest and then followed that intention up with action. I believe in western law it is said that silence implies consent.
Why do we come here to Jihad Watch, and post and voice our concerns about the real and present danger that is Islam? Because it's a joke, or because as a civilization we are in trouble? As we watch it creep into countries around our world, enslaving the weak and murdering those who oppose it, do you think we should be united against it or should we visit the countries that are firmly within it's grasp and pray with the muftis in their places of worship? People complain constantly here that Bush doesn't get it, that Blair doesn't get it, that the leaders of the western world don't get it and they are ridiculed for the way they handle the myth that Islam is peaceful. If Bush or Blair had walked into that mosque you guys would be pitching a bloody fit. But all the Catholics here are okay with our spiritual leader doing the same thing, i.e., not standing up to them but being polite and not trying to hurt any Muslim sensibilities? How about not hurting Our Lord's feelings? Did the Pope honor Our Lord by praying with a religious leader that denies that Jesus Christ is God and one who tells us that his intention is to force us to deny Christ and make us worship the demon "god" Allah? Have we as Catholics become so warped and jaded that we make excuses for that disrespectful behavior towards Our Lord instead of asking the Pope what was he thinking? Sorry, Weatherob, but I can't get over that, especially not when Christ tells us that He will stand up in front of His Father for people who stood up for Him, and deny those who don't.
We speak here constantly of the betrayal we experience when our leaders go into appeasement mode regarding Muslims and Islam. Does it feel any better to have the spiritual leader of one sixth of the population of the earth do it? Or is it that Catholics here feel they are betraying the Pope and the Church when they tell the truth that by his actions he is not condemning the heresy called Islam. And if Catholic leaders since Vatican II have been spewing the lie that Islam worships the same God that we as Christians do, and if that was not church teaching before that council convened then we must ask ourselves if something happened there to change church teaching, or if a lie was presented as the truth and church leaders took that ball and ran with it?
The Pope is infallible in matters of faith and morals. That is church teaching. But he is also a human man, capable of making mistakes and committing sins, as we all are. There is no shame in admitting that he sometimes makes mistakes; as a human being there is no way to completely avoid it. But that does not negate the truth of the Catholic Church or the respect inherent in his office.
If we are going to fight Islam with all it's lies and deceptive practices, we have to stand for the truth, and that means the whole truth, not just the truth we're comfortable with or the truth we've learned so far. We have to dig deep to understand the truth, as we have to dig deep to understand why Islam is such a threat to us at this time in history and find out what we can do it.
Isabella,
You asked: "Did the Pope honor Our Lord by praying with a religious leader that denies that Jesus Christ is God"
Would you apply the same standard and forbid a Pope from praying with a Jew, since they also deny Jesus is God?
Jesus cured the servant of a Roman Centurion who most likely worshipped Apollo or Mithra. He did not first demand the centurion's conversion but rather showed His Divine compassion towards even a pagan gentile.
In showing the Grace of Christ to non-believers and even to enemies, the Pope's actions are powerful. As Saint Francis said, "Proclaim Christ in everything, and sometimes, you may have to use words." On this occasion, words were not neccesary to show that a Christian can pray anywhere.
Isabella,
I understand your consern.. I don't agree with your conclusions... I know that you have a lot of passion about all this... I also know we agree on the threat of Jihad.
But I think how you and I would react would be different then the Pope and his mission of peace... I don't think he would be walking into that country preaching "the sword". That sort of preaching has already been taken by another religion.
God Bless...
Provaslani,
Let me re-phrase my question to be more clear: Did the Pope honor Our Lord by praying with a "religious" leader who tells us that Jesus Christ is not God, that Christians are the equivalent of dog doo (from the list of what is kafir,) and who promotes a religion that believes it is a point of honor to murder any Christian, Jew or other non-believer if they oppose Islam? The mufti wasn't praying the rosary with the Pope. And he wasn't confessing his crimes against humanity as a card carrying Muslim. He was promoting Islam, which is diametrically opposed to Christianity.
Its funny; when I first posted this above that the Pope went to the mosque, there were several people who demanded with indignantly that I provide the link, as if to say, that's not true, he couldn't have gone there. Then when I did prove that he had gone you guys defend his actions. So just answer this, would it have been okay for George Bush or Tony Blair to go into that mosque? Would you have felt that they did the right thing by going there?
As to applying the same standard to Jews, are the Jews going around beheading people? Were the Jews the ones who killed the Italian priest shortly before the Pope's visit to Turkey? You are comparing apples to oranges with that statement.
As to the story about Christ healing the centurion's servant, you forget that the Bible says that Jesus marveled at his faith. In Luke 7:6-9 it says:
And when he was not far from the house, the centurion sent his friends to him, saying: Lord, trouble not thyself; for I am not worthy that thou shouldest enter under my roof. For which cause neither did I think myself worthy to come to thee; but say the word, and my servant shall be healed. For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers: and I say to one: Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doth it. Which Jesus hearing marvelled: and turning about to the multitude that followed him he said: Amen I say unto you, I have not found so great a faith, not even in Israel.
This man believed in Christ's power to heal. He also built a synagogue for the Jews. He did not deny that Christ was who He said He was but understanding that there was something powerful within Him, asked for His help. There is no comparison.
If you are saying that prayer is important, I couldn't agree with you more. It's one thing to pray for the Muslims, that they stop the atrocities that they commit and find peace with a God of love instead of the demon god Allah who demands that they destroy themselves and others to worship him. It's quite another to enter a mosque where that demon god is worshipped and stand next to the Muslims' version of a high priest and pray with him in the direction of Mecca.
Weatherob,
So do you think that the Pope's advice to us should be that we submit to what Muslims want in the name of peace? Should we turn the other cheek and let them take over the world and then just suffer and offer it up? Or as Christians should we defend our families and protect the ability to propagate our faith in our children and our posterity? We are very close to the time when we will have to pick up the sword unless we are content to revert. I'm not, and there is nothing in the Bible or church teaching that says we are not allowed to defend ourselves against an enemy that will not only destroy our lives on earth but our souls as well.
If the Pope wants to do something effective that will produce results then he could do as Our Lady wishes and consecrate Russia to her Immaculate Heart, at which time she promised Russia would be converted and we would be given a period of peace. Some people believe this has been done but it hasn't. Pope John Paul II consecrated the world, not Russia as Our Lady requested at Fatima in 1917, to her Immaculate Heart back in 1984, but this was not what she asked and Islam has increased dramatically since then. And in light of this it doesn't seem too far fetched that there could be a connection, especially with Russia supplying arms to Iran.
I have absolutely no problem with the Pope praying for or with other people. That is not the issue here; the issue is whether the Pope as the head of the Catholic Church on the earth is promoting what he represents by walking into a mosque and praying in the direction of Mecca. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions then maybe what we do and how we do it matters.
And God bless you, too.