Salim Mansur: Bat Ye'or is "a Cassandra of our time"

Gaaad... I gave up after reading half through the frontpage stuff.

Manure is manure, Salim is....

Then again, when you think about it, perhaps she is a Cassandra. But it doesn't have to be that way. Are we really that weak?

Are we really that weak?

People who are enlightened (such as us) about Islamic violence and goals for world-domination, are unfortunately too few in number, to bring about change. The vast majority of people and Western leaders, are wholly ignorant/evasive about these things.

The only thing we enlightened ones can do, is talk to people and try to enlighten them.

I personally tell everyone about these things, trying to enlighten them, and often I hear people telling me how they "Don't care" or "Don't want to hear anything about Islam" or they give me some conspiracy crap about the government being behind all terrorist attacks. Those who say "But, Islam is a religion of peace?" are the ones you know you may stand a chance of educating, because at least they are open to discourse.

That's really something that ,that would be in a newspaper.

Sheik,
Sadly no one listened to Cassandra. They thought she was a bit mad. They really didn't want to believe her.

Now, in this war, we have quite a few Cassandras.
Hirsi Ali Wafa Sultan,Brigitte Gabriel and Noni Darwish to add to the list. Fallaci still communicates through her books

In fact we have male equivalents also, none the least of which are Robert and Hugh, and people like yourself and all the myriad of 'bloggers.

Maybe this is what will make the difference.

Our leaders are weak, not us.

Rogster I think we all do the same and put up with being called "weird" or "crazy".

Robert,

donw know if you are aware of the intense interest there has been in this glasgow airport worker who took on the terrorists, he hs been hailed as a hero all over the UK, websites praising him are popping up all the time..

well on Youtube there are many of his videos, one in particular uses the soundtrack from Braveheart with the words of Johh and ends with the famous Braaveheart "Freedom" speech of William Wallace... I believe this is going to be released as a cd in the uk and it will be a bestseller... I think your readers would really enjoy this video..

JOHN SMEATON GLASGOW HERO TERRORISTS BEWARNED

: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA03kEPnf-k&mode=related&search=

Finally, when asked by the Media , did he have a message for the terrorists, ..
John replied : "This is Glasgow - we'll set about you!".

keep up the great work, Purinuch

Actually, according to Greek myth, here's why nobody ever believes Cassandras: Apollo loved Cassandra and promised to grant her a wish if she had sex with him. So, she asked for the power of prophecy, got it, and then refused Apollo his part of the bargain. Ah, well. Although Apollo could not withdraw the gift of prescience he had given, he could attach a curse to it, to wit: No one will believe her predictions.

It's the curse of Cassandras of all eras that they have foreknowledge of the future, but no one believes them.

In addition, as Gramfan said, many thought she was insane, such as the Trojans. That was too bad for them because she predicted that if Paris went to Sparta, Troy would be destroyed (Sparta's where Paris abducted Helen). She predicted that the Trojan Horse was filled with armed and angry Greeks! "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts!" Nope, wasn't believed. And Troy was destroyed, just as she had said.

The difference between the Cassandra of Greek myth and our 21st century ones as mentioned by Gramfan, is that a lot of people DO believe them. Like us.

Uh huh - La Fallaci, Hirsi Ali, Brigitte Gabriel, Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan - WE BELIEVE YOU!!!!

Oops, sorry, left out Bat Ye'or (Gisele Orebi) - also widely believed and well-regarded. And in Mr. Spencer's "Islam" documentary.

More than Cassandra, we have a second myth at work.

Ulysses's crew sealed their ears with wax to avoid being tempted by the Sirens to crash their ship onto the rocks.

The modern Western leaders are a new Ulysses's crew.

But they have their mythology upside down.

They are heading for the rocks, trying to ignore the Sirens (Bat Ye'or, Hirsi Ali, et al) who are calling to them to steer away from disaster.

P.C. always inverts the meanings of the ancient truths.

another muslim wants to re-interpret islam so it can be a comfortable ideology for decent people:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07082007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/islams_problem_opedcolumnists_irshad_manji.htm

Uh Oh. Only one problem with your Ulysses comparison, profitsbeard - when the Sirens failed to lure Ulysses and his crew, they threw themselves into the sea and perished.

We don't want that to happen - they have to keep "singing" even though Western "leaders" keep ignoring them. We must ALL KEEP SINGING though our Western "leaders" are steering us to the rocks.

Actually, it's the Sirens who are trying to lure Ulysses to his death... I don't quite get what you're saying...

Re: the John Smeaton videos... I wish they had subtitles. Glaswegians are the hardest for this Yankee to understand... sigh.

"Bat Ye'or, meaning "daughter of the Nile" in Hebrew, is the pen name Gisele Orebi took for herself. Bat Ye'or was born in Cairo and with her family became a stateless refugee in 1957 when the Egyptian dictator Gamal Abdel Nasser revoked the citizenship of Jews settled in the land of the Pharoahs for nearly three millenniums."

Reading this it now gives insight and helps make sense of what Arafat did to the 750,000 Arabian Jews. It was identity theft. Bat Ye'or is a true Palestinian. The kind the Romans re- named in or near the holy land to obliterate them. When Nasser revoked her persona, Arafat stole it by calling himself and the other marauding arab moslems as "Palestinian." The Palestinian arab is not a made up persona of West Bank and Gaza arabs, rather it is a stolen persona.

atheling, read profitsbeard's post and you'll get it.

No compulsion in religion, the biggest lie ever told.

http://www.islam-watch.org/Swadhin/No-Compulsion-in-Religion-Biggest-Lie.htm

darcy
thanks for detailing the rest of the story:)

I think it is parable-like and can be related to many eras in history.Seems someone has always sounded the alarm bells.

The Trojan War: interesting how many posters here call muslims 'trojans'. Of course they really mean 'trojan horses" who have infiltrated our society just like the horse was taken beyond the gates of Troy into the city. They have relied on our greed and ignorance to get in and thrive and ultimately destroy us.

We are just like the Trojans are we not?

(ps if you really like this story and are a music fan, a great rock opera was written by Jon English and David MacKay quite a while ago. It is called "Paris" I think it is still available at Amazon. Great cast including Harry Neilsson, Barry Humphries, Demis Roussos and Jon English of course. It's up there with, and beyond some of Lloyd Webber's stuff. It never got the publicity it deserved).

darcy-

Since everything is upsidedown in P.C. world, the sirens (Ye'or, Ali, etc.) won't be in any trouble... except the general Civilizational collapse brought on by the delusional likes of West and his cronies. (Bush, Rice, Brown, Olmert, et al.)

altheling-

Ulysses had himself tied to his ship's mast and made his crew plug their ears so they wouldn't hear EITHER the sirens OR his pleas to release him... as he was captivated by the sirens' song ...nor listen his orders to steer toward to the mesmerizing call. Onto the rocks, and disaster.

The sirens were thus rendered ineffective, but he got to enjoy their uncanny music. (A clever fellow, that Ulysses/Odysseus.)

I think these fine women are more like ancient England's Bodaecia.

(Although, again, I hope their Fates are better than this British heroine.)

"(Although, again, I hope their Fates are better than this British heroine.)

Posted by: profitsbeard "

And I hope our fate is a lot better than the Trojans' fate!

"I have been reading Bat Ye'or for some time and have acquired insight into that aspect of history -- the place of religious minorities in the Arab-Muslim world -- that Muslims more than anyone else need to learn and reflect upon, but sadly will likely not."

"SADLY WILL LIKELY NOT"?

Is that all it is? "Sad"? Sad that there is an ongoing genocide of non-Muslims in the Muslim world?
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/islams_global_war_against_chri.html

And "sad" that Muslims couldn't care less?

Of course it's obvious that they couldn't care less. But here is Salim Mansur, knowing Muslims, ADMITTING that they probably will never care.

Pardon me for asking the obvious question but why in the hell then should infidels EVER care one whit about what happens to Muslims? If a bunch of really angry people ever start committing a holocaust against Muslims, are Muslims to find it perfectly understandable if even the most well-meaning infidels merely shake their heads and say "Huh. So sad, isn't it?"??

Hey sublimer - what do you think? You're the one who is so worried about the infidels setting up concentration camps for Muslims. What are you personally doing to protest this holocaust against infidels in the Muslim world that is occurring NOW?. That goes for all Muslims. What are you doing right NOW to protest against this?

Back in the 80's American college students made a big huge fuss about South African apartheid and (for better or worse), managed to influence that policy half a world away.

Yet as Patrick Poole notes in his article:

"But an extensive search this past weekend of the websites of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, the Islamic Society of North America, the Islamic Circle of North America, the Muslim American Society, the Muslim Student Association, the Fiqh Council of North America, and the Muslim Public Affairs Committee - the most visible institutional representatives of Islam in America - found not a single mention or reference of the religious persecution of Christians by their Islamic co-religionists, thereby making them tacit co-conspirators in the Final Solution to the Christian problem in the Muslim world."

More and more is being written about this genocide of infidels in the main stream press. It isn't enough for Muslims to say "how sad" - which is apparently a brave statement coming from Mansur.

We all know that Muslims have no equivalent of the Golden Rule in their religion so while their silence comes as no surprise, I would still like to actually hear an explanation from apparently intelligent Muslims such as sublimer, as to why infidels should care AT ALL about whatever the future may hold for Muslims (should a sufficient number of infidels become really outraged), aside from shaking their heads and simply muttering, "Hmm. So sad".

Caroline
you are right of course.

I fear we will see another holocaust. This time it will not be Jews only. It will be everyone else also. They have already started and everyone will be "Jews" this time.

We now know they are everywhere. We are going to have to get used to what the Israelis have been living with all the time. Even if there are no bus bombings, we will always have to be alert and on edge.

Great article. Great comments. It would be nice if the author of the article could actually write English - the widely accepted plural of millenium is millenia NOT milleniums, and Websters and the OED concur.

I have read three of Bat Ye'or's books and I find her anything but shrill, shrieking mad and incredible. She carefully researches her topics. Her work is carefully footnoted, with an ample bibliography. She supports her claims with voluminous evidence from history and sound reasoning.

So, what kind of person would not take her seriously? Obviously, one who is in deep denial about the problem, of which we have plenty. The most obvious, egregious offenders are the elites in Europe and here in the U.S. All the way to the Oval Office.

She, Robert, Serge Trifkovic, and Andrew Bostom should be required reading for Condi Rice and Karen Hughes, as well as the President. They also need to read the Qur'an and some of ahadith Bukhari and Muslim, just so that they can see that Robert and company are not msu. There are a lot of ordinary, educated citizens like me who have not a shred of sloth within us, who want to deeply understand the nature of this conflict and the enemy, who are not satisfied with the pap that passes for enlightened opinion among the policy wonks.

Well said, FredIsinglass.

thank you, profitsbeard for the explanation on Odysseus and the Sirens, of which I know well. It's just that I missed a post before Darcy's, whose response I didn't quite get because of they had adapted a metaphor.

Caroline, there is no reason for us to feel compassion for muslims or to care what happens to them. Absolutely no reason whatsoever unless we feel bound by Christian teachings to love our enemies. I'm afraid I am a dismal failure in that department. I cannot bring myself to even tolerate people who believe the blasphemous, violent, malevolent invective espoused by muhammad and his alter ego, allah. There may be a few saintly folks who could sincerely forgive muslims for hating them simply because the Qur'an (the word of allah) says they must. There is no excuse for people to worship a god of hate and blood-lust in the twenty-first century. There is no excuse for these miserable people to immigrate to foreign lands and try to impose their satanic cult, which they consider superior to all other religions, on civilized people. There is no excuse for our elected officials to put our lives and the security of our country at risk by allowing these savages to invade the West.

My patience with muslims and islam has expired. Muslims represent and contribute only hate; sedition; an archaic, repulsive culture; conflict; crime; and senseless terrorism. I don't look at prostrated, shoeless males in a mosque as devout worshippers; I see potential murderers and terrorists inspired by the wicked imam standing at the pulpit, resplendent in his white robes, foaming at the mouth like a rabid dog as he foments hatred and islamic supremacy. I sometimes wish I didn't know these scenes were common across my beautiful country because the intense anger they evoke is almost debilitating at times. These demonic islamic clerics tell their maniacal flocks that we are not human beings because we aren't muslim. This is what our government has brought to America and now protects like an endangered species!

Unfortunately, I consider muslims to be inhuman beasts. They are monsters disguised as people, thoroughly corrupted by islam. I don't know if I could throw water on one if it was on fire, knowing it wouldn't lift a finger to help me.

Describing Bat Yeor as Cassandra misses an important distinction: Cassandra used to predict the future, and curse or no curse, there at least was a rational basis for disbelieving her. That's different from Bat Yeor, who has done a yeoman's (or is that yeowoman's) job in re-counting the history of Christian and Jewish minorities from Spain/Andaluz to Persia. She puts together a history of what's happened in these countries, and in the absence of any contradicting and refuting material from pro-Islamic scholars, they ought to be able to stand on their own.

Now one could state that just because Bat Yeor is right about how Muslims have persecuted Dhimmis throughout the ages does not necessarily imply that they'd continue to do that if they were ever to come to power in the West. While that would defy most people's sense of credulity, it would at least be based on acknowledging the facts as the exist, and then appealing to the possibility of a low-probable outcome being the result. But that's rarely what Muslim apologists request: usually, it's a bland dismissal of anything wrong that happened, or an attempt to ascribe it to any factor other than Islam.

Reading Mansur's article, I'm hoping that he's beginning to see the light on how evil Islam has been towards non-Muslims. I however wouldn't be one to hold my breath.

Kassandra was loved by Koroibus (Coroebus) the most handsome man in the Greek world - he whom even the Gods called 'Hero' simply for his looks. That she reciprocated his love is generally attested. That he was killed for loving her is also generally attested. That her truths are now universally acknowledged is plain.

It took many thousands of years for Kassandra to be vindicated. Pray God that Bat Ye'or will be listened to rather than vindicated after the fact.

Susanp - sorry that I didn't get a chance to respond until now - You said:

"There is no reason for us to feel compassion for muslims or to care what happens to them. Absolutely no reason whatsoever unless we feel bound by Christian teachings to love our enemies."

I don't think I feel so much compelled to "love my enemy" as to understand from a psychological POV where they are coming from. And it certainly continues to baffle me that Muslims on the whole are utterly incapable of empathy. They're literally like 2 year olds focused on "I want. I want.", never noticing nor caring about the feelings of those around them. We in the west are so used to asking, "Why do they hate us? Are their grievances legitimate? What are our historical crimes? And so on. I would think this tendency probably comes as much from the legacy of a century of psychoanalysis as it does from Christianity.

But when we look at it from that POV – and ask ourselves – where are they coming from? - it’s hard to escape the conclusion that where they are coming from is a POV of utter indifference as to where WE are coming from! They couldn’t care less. They not only don’t share the Golden Rule with us, they don’t even share the same psychological tendency towards self-reflection and curiosity about the other’s perspective. (Maybe psychoanalysis actually requires the Golden Rule as a foundation?)

But if you think about it – why WOULD they “get it” when all they are ever exposed to in their own world is their own POV and THEN, when Muslims come here to the west and enroll in our schools and universities, the liberal world view that does nothing BUT see things from the OTHER POV, comes face to face with the OTHER and actually REINFORCES the grievances that the other came here with in the first place! How stupid can you get! If the liberals wanted to give a real education then they would precisely turn the tables on the OTHER, who has been force fed a diet of his OWN POV and the liberal education would force him to view things from OUR POV! THAT would be an education! The problem is that it’s all going in only one direction and absolutely NOONE is forcing Muslims to see things from the other’s POV.

Anyway, I suppose I still hold out some hope that Muslims will somehow “get it”, which is why I sometimes write posts along the lines of – imagine if the Koran were reversed and all the verses referred to slaughtering Muslims? Or imagine if members of the non-ummah started slaughtering their fellow Muslim citizens for crimes committed against other members of the non-ummah halfway across the world, or posts like this one –if you don’t care about the holocaust being committed against infidels all around the world, why would you expect that we should care if you got rounded up into concentration camps?

I don’t write these things because I want them to happen. I write them as some sort of last gasp to try to get Muslims to actually see things from the Other POV before it’s way too late for them.

I was harsh about this article because it’s so anemic in tone. But admittedly it is pretty rare to see Muslims just trying to suggest that Muslims ought to maybe try seeing things from the other’s POV. I've stumbled across a few similar articles in recent days. Although I don't hold out much hope for a revolution in Muslim consciousness, I suppose it's a baby step for a Muslim to publically imagine that maybe things weren't so great for infidels under Sharia law. If it manages for just a moment to get even a few Muslims thinking just for once from the Other's POV, it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

Caroline

It's like trying to use a few buckets of water to alter the ocean levels. Magnitude, ma'am, magnitude!

For the benefit of any reader/ visitor/ lurker who hasn't yet read Bat Ye'or - I'll second Fredisinglass and Jonathan Ralbrooke, above. I have a PhD in English Literature - and that doesn't mean I'm a fool, because it is still possible to be a solid old-fashioned scholar, so long as you have a habit of seeking out and reading old books. And I, speaking as a trained scholar, say that Bat Ye'or is a great writer and truth-teller.

Those who have been deluded by Muslim 'spin', despise and slander her. Ignore them. Buy her books! Read them! Read her articles that feature in Robert Spencer's "Myth of Islamic Tolerance".

Bat Ye'or is a magnificent scholar of the traditional, honest, old-fashioned kind that buries itself in the source documents, absorbs, observes, analyses, and then produces a lucid and accurate account for the illumination of others, falsifying nothing and sparing no-one's feelings, least of all her own.

Mansur erred in comparing her to Cassandra. Bat Ye'or is a prophet after the Biblical, Hebrew, Jewish manner: whose job is primarily to 'tell it like it is', to testify and warn. Her message is not that of the pagan seer - 'this will happen no matter what you do, thus have the Fates decreed' - but rather, that of the Jewish prophet: 'these will be the consequences IF you persist in doing X, so repent before it's too late!'

Bat Ye'or's opinions on current events and what must be done for the future to "win the war against jihad" have been further shared in a recent blog interview. Admittedly, I know this because I helped transcribe it, but I did learn much more about her thoughts on current issues as well as her quite optimistic view of the future. I really was quite shocked to hear her so hopeful, shocked and amazed. In her prediction that the Muslim Reformers must prevail and be supported and that only then will there be peace, I believe that she is just as much the "Cassandra" as she has been described.

Please read her words and hear her voice:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2007/07/bat-and-me.html#more

Thank You.