Muslim reformists here echo some things we have said here many times. I guess they are all "Islamophobes."
"Arab Liberals on the 'Terrorist Doctors' Plot in the U.K.," from MEMRI (thanks to all who sent this in):
Mustapha Hammouche: Misery and Ignorance Are Not the Main Cause of Terrorism; Islamism is a Point of Moral Rupture[...]
"The persistent quest [to find] a non-violent Islamist lies at the origin of the invention of a 'moderate' Islamism. This attitude can be explained by the fearful refusal to confront Islamism, in its global and bellicose reality. The authorities always start out by fighting while in retreat, trying to disarm Islamism by promoting [its] purportedly 'moderate' spokesmen.
[...]
Kurdish Journalist Tariq Hemo: The Western Countries Are Reaping the Harvest of Overly Liberal Immigration Policies
[...]
"…The Western countries are currently reaping, in these terrorists, what they sowed when they flung their doors open wide to every malevolent fundamentalist and failed in putting in place a mechanism for managing and controlling immigration in an appropriate manner…
"The West's generosity in allowing the organizations of political Islam to penetrate into Islamic societies [in Europe], spread among their youth, and enlist them in order to achieve their own ends and realize their agendas, was a mistake, and was the prelude that led to the appearance of these disastrous consequences now. He who sows the wind reaps the storm…
"The forces of political Islam that were chased out of the East… have control over a wide swath of Islamic societies in Europe. Things that are forbidden and are lines that cannot be crossed in Arab countries, and lead to the one who says them… being [kicked out] way beyond the sun, are permitted here in the West: fiery sermons and takfiri pamphlets, meetings that openly discuss overturning governments and hanging the rulers, the conditions of carrying out the death penalty against an apostate, and imposing the jizya [poll-tax] on the dhimmis…
[...]
Khudayr Taher: Europe and America Should Deport All Muslims - Including Myself
[...]
"Countries have the right to defend themselves and assure their citizens' safety from terrorism. Likewise, it is clear that the source of the terrorist crimes in Europe and America is the Muslims who live in these countries.
"The security services cannot know people's intentions and sort out who is the noble immigrant and who is a terrorist criminal. [But] wherever there are Muslims, their presence has produced crimes of terrorism and murder.
"Among those Muslims in Europe and America who do not practice terrorism, most of them do not have loyalty and sincere attachment to these countries that have offered them all of the means of life in dignity - housing, studies, work, and citizenship…
"The legitimate question is this: Since the security services cannot sort out the good immigrant from the bad terrorist… why don't these countries deport all Muslims, of all races, from Europe and America, and [thus] find rest from the danger of terrorism, and protect their peoples?
"I, as an Arab Muslim immigrant, sincerely call on the countries of Europe and America to deport all Muslims from their territories - including myself, despite my love and my sincere attachment to the U.S…"
Who invented the phrase 'moderate muslim'?
Was it the same person who coined 'tiny minority of extremists' 'religion of peace' & 'islamophobia'?
1) Oh if only we could win the hearts and minds of these moderate muslims from the religion of peace by being less islamophobic, they could then stop the tiny minority of extremists!
or put another way...
2) Oh if only we could get the unicorns and the flyin pigs to eat meat, then they could persuade the stone to give up its blood...
The sad thing about my humour, is that paragraph 1 is often trotted out by our politicians as the solution to our current situation.
Yes,deport all Muslims....except Khudayr Taher. He deserves freedom just for saying this.
Hmm, seems to be saying what I have been saying for years. Bet no one listens to him either.
Christianity says that those who don't accept it's theology cannot get into heaven. Islam says that those who don't accept its theology should be killed or subjugated, which means that Islam is dangerous. This simple truth should form the basis of policy, such as immigration.
I think it's fair to say that those who believe in killing or subjugating us should be excluded from our country.
The government does not give its citizens a story that makes sense. No mention of the "Last Days of Europe" (the title of a new book by Walter Laqueur); no indication that Islam itself is worth understanding in ways that contradict the happy-face nonsense.
Bush's welcoming that Imam to the Washington Cathedral in the first days after 9/11 was understandable. The message was, "We are all in this together." But was that the right message?
StillBreathing:
When Buch said "we" he meant all freedom-loving, tolerant people, such as Nazis, Klansmen, Stalinists and Islamists.
This is a test.
Identify the speaker.
"I also want to speak tonight directly to Muslims throughout the world. We respect your faith. It's practiced freely by many millions of Americans and by millions more in countries that America counts as friends. Its teachings are good and peaceful, and those who commit evil in the name of Allah blaspheme the name of Allah."
9/20/01
Leave Iraq Now:
George W Bush
Do i win a prize?
and if i may add from the same speech, he got this right...
This is not, however, just America's fight. And what is at stake is not just America's freedom. This is the world's fight. This is civilization's fight. This is the fight of all who believe in progress and pluralism, tolerance and freedom
Tommy Atkins...reporting in.
Hmmm. Why wait to get deported, leave now...
People, the "NYT" just printed an un-PC comment of mine!
If you're interested, go online to the article about "NYT" reporter Khalid Hassan, who was murdered yesterday by Shia militia in Baghdad.
It's comment #46, signed with a different name.
Can't believe they printed it! Woo Hoo!
Darcy,
can you past it here? That would be great!
Gram, I'm not too computer savvy concerning cutting/pasting or whatever is the lingo.
So, unfortunately, no I can't, sorry! But, thanks for asking. On To Do List: Learn how to paste.
Re: "The authorities always start out by fighting while in retreat, trying to disarm Islamism by promoting [its] purportedly 'moderate' spokesmen".
Much of this has to do with a sick guilt that is played upon by Jihad Hustlers. They have been good at pretending that Imperialism is a purely Western phenomena. However, British, Manchu, Chinese, Aztec, Spaniard, Japanese, Arab, Ottoman Empire Imperialism, etc. is history. All of history is the story of the conquest, the subduing, often the extermination of some lately "indigenous culture", "indigenous people" and religion-ideology is the rationalization that permits the process. This is going on in our time as Muslims once more rev up the Engine of Arab Imperialism.
Very often an Imperialist Machine (Nazis in Russia, e.g.) is stopped when the object of conquest uses the tactics of the aggressor. Zhukov and the Russian Generals turned the tide in 1942 and 1943 when they used hard learned "blitzkrieg" tactics against the Nazis. In fact, the Russians became very good at the tactics of Blitzkrieg using the feared T-34 "Stalin Tank" as their instrument of quick moving armored divisions.
In like manner, the current aggression will end when precisely the terror that Jihadists wish to inspire in the West comes home to them. Why not smuggle nuclear Weapons into places where Al Qaeda holds-up. How is anyone to know that one of their own bombs did not detonate? Let them live in fear of the next strike. That will make Jihad a frightening word to them just as blitzkreig became feared by the Nazis.
Stop the sick guilt. They don't feel any guilt for their Imperialism. Only utter defeat will make them feel that for their Imperialism.
To deport muslims would be un PC in our liberal governments l just dont see in the forseeable futur. Liberal nature does not work that way, as logic is lost on these types.
Why is he (K. Taher) still a Muslim?
Fear of assassination if he becomes an apostate?
I say, let the apostates stay, since they no longer believe in the overthrow of the secular governments of the West in order to replace them with a tyrannical Islamic theocracy.
The rest should be encouraged to go back to Muslim lands and begin the Reformation of the violent dogmas out of the Koran.
Until they do, Islam = sedition.
The reason why the Muslims are not sent back to their lands it's bkz most of the Western world is in the hand of Marxist leaders, with outdated, failed ideologies like "multiculturalism". In order fo rus to revert that, we should deal with our own whimpy leaders, AND, at the same time, spread information about Islamo-fascism.
Can one trust a muslim, even when they are apologizing for islam ?
If truth is no value for an islamist, how useful is the dialogue ?
Perhaps we are entering a new level or plateau for taquyyah.
nationalist parties across europe welcome your honesty and we will help you pack your bags and even give you 2000 pounds each to send you on your way back home!
"I, as an Arab Muslim immigrant, sincerely call on the countries of Europe and America to deport all Muslims from their territories - including myself, despite my love and my sincere attachment to the U.S…"
words to be taken with a grain of salt
The man took the words out of my mouth. Unfortunately, I don't believe them coming out of his mouth. He is free to make such suggestions because he knows they will never be acted on. No Muslim born in America would accept deportation. The first politician who even suggests it will be condemned as a bigot or for religious profiling.
Actions speak louder than words. If you believe all Muslims should leave, the door is open. No one is stopping you from going. Tell your fellow worshippers next Friday that all should leave America. But of course you can't do that. If you wait for the Americans to deport you then you become a victim and a hero. The ummah will forgive your taqiyyah and recognize it for what it is: a challenge to the infidels. It is then added to the list of grievances to be cited the next time America is attacked.
We can't deport criminals who claim "a fear of persecution" in their native country. After calling for deportation of all Muslims will you then go to court saying your home country is no longer a safe place to live?
That's what happens when your religion advocates lying. Some people will not believe you even when you speak the truth.
"Christianity says that those who don't accept it's theology cannot get into heaven"
jewdog that's not true. Well, at least in the Catholic Church it's not true:
"Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment... For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God...His conscience is man's most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths..."
Article 6 para. 1776 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church
A pagan who follows this moral law can go to heaven if he wishes to. What of the millions of people who lived before Christianity? Are they consigned to hell? Of course not! If we know that God is merciful and just, then we must realize that with Him ALL things are possible.
The Church deduces that there MUST be a purgatory. A place where the soul goes to before it can reach heaven, in order to purify and ready itself, for nothing with the stain of sin (which means "separation") can enter God's presence. This is where the Catholic Church and many of the Protestant churches depart. A pagan or an atheist CAN go to heaven if he has striven daily to live a moral life according to his or her conscience. His estrangement from God's family (i.e. Jews and Christians) would probably require time in purgatory to reunite that "separation".
That is not to say that a soul cannot reject heaven. If you die rejecting God, then no power can force you to go there. It's man's free will to choose. People like Christopher Hitchens, who may very well live an ethical and moral life, may not want to go to heaven and will choose to spend eternity in God's absence (which is hell), may do so.
Darcy
The text blocking function with your right click side of your mouse is your friend.
Atheling:
Hasn't Benedict just said that Christians who are not Catholics cannot get into heaven?
He issued a document saying: non-Catholic Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, and the Roman Catholic Church provides the only true path to salvation.
What is salvation other than being reunited with God in heaven?
Our president has signed a pact with the devil,selling the american people down the river,in the process...he is allowing thousands of iraqi "refugees",thus importing violence and destruction to the US...THIS IS CRAZY.
PMK:
Saying that non-Catholic churches are "defective" and "not true churches" is not the same as saying that Christians who are not Catholics cannot go to heaven. Do you see that?
What he is saying is that they do not possess the FULLNESS of Christian revelation as the Church does.
Yes, the Catholic Church is the TRUE path to salvation because she contains the FULLNESS of God's revelation to man. Without that revelation it is much harder to understand and follow God's law. The Eucharist gives a person grace and strength to follow God's law and to live according the Christ's teachings. Without it it is very difficult to reach the goal of heaven, but it is not IMPOSSIBLE, as all things are possible with God.
Do you understand what he is saying? He didn't say that they can't go to heaven, he is saying that they cannot know the TRUE PATH TO SALVATION without the teachings of the Church. The Church teaches (via the Magisterium) the clear and true path to salvation in Christ. And the Church also teaches that a person who follows the moral law implanted in his conscience by God CAN make it to heaven, though they may be far and few between because they haven't the advantage that a follower of Jesus has. Hence, the necessity of purgatory.
Which is a better path to the same goal? To traverse a dangerous and obstructed road on one's own, or with a faulty map, or to traverse it with a tried and true map that helps one avoid all the pitfalls the path engenders? The odds of one making it to the goal are much better when using the map that has the correct details, keys, etc... isn't it?
I hope I'm making sense to you of a very difficult and seeming contradictory stance... you're probably better off discussing it with a better educated orthodox Catholic priest than with me.
See Hassan Butt’s article in The Times today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article2072587.ece
This is especially relevant:
“I disagree with those who say the pressing problem is simply how do we deal with an aberrant, extreme minority who have unleashed a reign of terror on Britain -- rather, I believe the heart of the matter is Islam itself and how its teachings are interpreted. If we isolate the problem to that of the extreme fringe, then we are merely skimming the surface.”
Good to see that the views of Robert Spencer (and most us here?) are getting an airing in the mainstream media at last, and from a renegade jihadi at that.
It is good that the word is getting out in the MSM.
Unfortunately it's not just Muslim heads which are firmly stuck in the sand...
John Doe said:
jewdog said:
My sentiments exactly.
Atheling,
The people in protestant churches ARE followers of Jesus. They're CHRISTIAN denominations.
Benedict says the Roman Catholic Church provides the ONLY TRUE PATH TO SALVATION.
What do you think that means? Is there a FALSE path to salvation?
Benedict's pronouncement made me shudder because I saw it as similar to what happens in the Muslim world today where one sect says the others aren't Muslim enough. I see no difference between this pronouncement and the Sunni/Shia split. Both believe in the Koran and follow the teachings of Mohammad but some Muslims are more equal than others.
The Reformation occurred centuries ago. It's a fact. Why is it necessary for the Catholic Church (of which I was once a member) to claim predominance? Leave it alone. Take what we have in common, a belief in Jesus Christ and His teachings, instead of sowing division. Especially at this time, with the conflict between Islam and the Judeo-Christian faiths, why is it necessary to start an internecine battle?
atheling,
Didn't the Roman Catholic Church (whatever its virtues may be) take on, after the fall of the Roman Empire, characteristics of earthly, Roman imperial rule? It did indeed, despite the words "my kingdom is not of this world." In my view, whatever the virtues of the Roman church, it still hasn't fully recovered from that Roman disease. Too many Catholics are attracted to the Roman Catholic church not just because of her virtues, but because of her "officialness," her earthly authority and pedigree, her earthly lineage to Peter.
For my part, if I had to choose one of the three main routes to Christianity, it wouldn't be Catholicism. Though I can see that Catholicism is good for some. But I suppose one can know the central figure of the New Testament personally, without benefit of any of the three big establishment forms of Christianity. His kingdom is not of this world. The worldly thing is Islam's evil schtick. (Though "schtick" is too good a word to be associated in the same sentence with "Islam.")
My sentiment exactly, as you can see if you google my name. It is nice to know that there are other Muslims like me who gather courage to step forward and say exactly the same things. As I have been calling for years: No more Muslims! Do not let any in! It does not matter that some of them might be friends - just ban everybody, because demographic jihad is even more dangerous than the deadly kamikaze jihad.
After 25 years in the US, I consider it my country, despite its many ills and ailements. I take it, warts and all. As frustrated as I get with the US stupidities, and downright crimes, I am reminded of the goodness of the American people every day. Every time I step out of my front door, I get immersed in human wormth, as I encounter my fellow Americans, the friendliest people on Earth. They are my people now, there are no other people I would rather be among. Just like that other Muslim mentioned in the article, however, I would gladly go back to my Old Country Russia on the condition that all other Muslims leave the United States as well. I would do it for my country because I care about it. Echoing that guy, I say: deport me and all other Muslims!
My fondness for my American people does not blind me to their many faults, the most serious of which is their propensity to defer to sociopaths, the worst among us. It starts very early, in elementary school, where the worst kids are kings and other are their abject subjects. Sociopathic qualities - the ability to lie with a straight face, totally unburdened by shame, conscience or morality, propensity to manipulate others, etc. - are winning ones in this country. As a result, the sociopaths float up to the top in our society, like shit in a toilet bowl, making up high-powered classes and elites above us. They keep steering this country in wrong directions, and regular American folks pay with their lives. We therefore must wrestle our country away from the sociopaths, systematically ousting them from every position of power or influence. Where to start? At the very top.
Folks, I have lived half of my life in the Soviet Union and another in the United States, and my entire life experience has convinced me that the person in top position, whether a shop foreman, or an owner of a company, or the leader of a nation, makes all the difference in the world. Why did so many calamities have befallen our nation during the last 30 years, finally putting us on the brink of nuclear terrorism? Because in 1976, the Democrat Primary voters had committed a horrible blunder rejecting the great Henry "Scoop" Jackson and chosing Carter as their nominee. We have never recovered from it. We never had any good choices in our elections after that. We never had a man in the White House since.
Folks, for the first time in 31 years, a great opportunity comes along to elect a man to the White House, one that we cannot afford to miss, not in these dangerous times! I am talking about Rudy Giuliani. Folks, trust me, Rudy is the real thing, he is the savior we desperately need! He will bring to the White House the anti-terrorist FBI & Federal Prosecutor culture as opposed to terrorist - appeasing State Dept. culture, or totally incompetent but actively terrorist-aiding CIA culture. Rudy came out against the immigration bill and Z-visas, he pledged to identify every alien in the US if elected. Visit his site JoinRudy2008.com and check out his 12 commitments to the American people. I contributed to his campaign and get regular updates from it. Rudy rocks! Spred the word and rally folks for him. We can actually make the difference instead of just posing here. For all the right reasons, rally for Rudy!
Ruslan Tokhchukov,
@crusader
Do you really believe in this Marxist thing? In Switzerland we have 18% foreigner. Lots of Italiens, former construction work. Now in 3rd generation, no problem. Construction is in the hand of Portuguese today, very hard working people. Tamils are very welcome in the restaurant and hospital business. Indians work in the computer business. Many industries here were foundet by foreigners. It's just the Muslims, who create all those problems. Our experience tells us, immigration is good, but we haven't checked their holy book.
PMK posted: Why is it necessary for the Catholic Church (of which I was once a member) to claim predominance? Leave it alone. Take what we have in common, a belief in Jesus Christ and His teachings, instead of sowing division.
Absolutely right.
"Christianity says that those who don't accept it's theology cannot get into heaven".
Posted by: jewdog at July 14, 2007 8:20 AM
Some say that, but they are a minority. I can only speak for myself. I went to a Catholic H.S. (under the "Diocese of Brooklyn Program). I went to Mater Christi (now Saint John's Prep). We were taught that a Jew, a Hindu, whatever received a "baptism of desire" by their love for the truth. A Jewish man or woman could be closer to Christ than an apparent "Christian" under such circumstances. "Salvation" was not related to dogma under what we were taught. It was related to the love for truth and the desire to do justice, to give people what they deserved for their works.
I was taught by the Irish Christian Brothers. We were taught that "anti Semitism" (Jew hating) was evil. I remember Brother Benedict (picture below) making that and other things plain to us. I once asked him why we all wore uniforms (I asked him that at lunch break) and I still remember his answer, "Some here are from wealthy families, most are from middle class families, some are poor. We don't want that to be an issue here. The issue is education". I also asked him why the girls and boys were separated and he wisely pointed out how the sexual instinct may be used to focus for learning. He said, "We don't want you distracted, Frank". I still remember his smile as he said that to me.
http://materchristi.com/bronorman/sleeve18/imagepages/image4.htm
"A pagan who follows this moral law can go to heaven if he wishes to. What of the millions of people who lived before Christianity? Are they consigned to hell? Of course not! If we know that God is merciful and just, then we must realize that with Him ALL things are possible."
posted by atheling
God was with the people before christianity.There has been no time on this earth when the words of God were not known.Yes there were and are pagans and they have had as much of a chance to learn the words of God as you or myself.
Correct me if i am wrong but doesn't he say hell and torment for eternity? Not till you are cleansed and then you get into heaven.You get cleansed by being babtized,as he was.We though are mere mortal and men.We sin.To recleanse ourselves is to repent and try harder and move on.
To me what you said is almost like being an athiest ( no insults intended disclaimer flashing here),"just be a good person",only you add believing in God.So now you are a good person that believes with good intention that you will go to heaven,even by not necesarily living by Gods words.
He said heaven for eternity and hell for eternity.I suppose he could have meant that being there would seem like forever,but i doubt it.
I look at it this way too.He created all things from nothing.The scientists of today create from those creations.Until they can create from nothing.....something,they lag far far behind the big G.
I sin on a daily basis now because of islam and i hope like crazy he uses pencil and not pen to write in that book!
In fact just talking about islam or saying islam seems like a sin.It probably is too.
Just to get back on topic i too think the wests generocity is a mistake,but then i am not exotic enough or foreign enough for them to listen to.After all who do i think i am?
I was a really good pitcher in H.S. A fastball that came across the plate like an aspirin and a curve ball that was the bane of batters. I was good. Maybe I should have followed that trade. I was pure focus on the mound.
I'm a Protestant - Episcopalian.
God and Jesus (One and the Same) are to whom I pray. End of Story.
There is no "Allah," a pagan Moon-god of pre-Islamic Arabic lore. The Muslims pray to nothing and nobody. That is the horror of Islam. Basically, they are praying to Muhammed, a human Warlord - a Murderer, Rapist, Slave-Owner, Thief, Polygamist, Pedophile, Psychopath. Which is why they behave the way they do, evil.
There is no greater evil on Earth than Muhammed/"Allah."
"Yes, the Catholic Church is the TRUE path to salvation because she contains the FULLNESS of God's revelation to man."
Atheling.
Just the sort of rabid thinking, dressed up as "morality" that is typical of christianity.
yes, the catholic church, rampant with nepotism, homosexuality, and pedophilia, is the true path, just like Islam is.
The true path is to actually do some good in the world, not obsess with the homo-erotic images of some fictional chap nailed to a cross that never existed.
Jesus, it's like you all evolved to believe in something ridiculous. Oh yes, you did, I forgot.
darcy-
It's similar to the blood soaked Aztec nonsense. I think someday it will be seen that way. It seems to me that Christianity has sublimated the blood letting ritual into symbolism with the sacrifice of Jesus. They have not sublimated the blood ritual. Instead, they are busy with human sacrifice-unsublimated.
JFGR - thanks for that link. Another interesting article by Hassan Butt. I would be amazed if this guy hadn't been reading JW, because the way he phrases the problem is virtually identical to the way Spencer has repeatedly framed it.
Re: Khudayr Taher - I would be inclined to take his statements at face value, as I would the statements of Ruslan Tokhchukov (enragedsince1999 above). (I mention this only because I have seen a number of comments to the effect that these people can’t be trusted). Yes of course the practice of taquiyyah destroys trust between Muslims and infidels but in terms of these particular statements, there is nothing to be gained by making such statements unless one really means them. True, I’m no longer the bleading heart liberal I once was but neither am I so cynical that I hopefully can’t recognize when someone actually means what they say.
Harkening back to a previous post of mine:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016170.php#c383997
It is one of my criteria to label someone a true moderate Muslim, if he (or she) objects to further Muslim immigration to the west. Both Taher and Ruslan are going much farther than that in advocating deportation of Muslims including themselves. Obviously they should be exempted from their own prescription here because the point is that they are able to step outside themselves and see what is objectively best for non-Muslims, which is precisely what makes them welcome as citizens among us infidels.
Of course stopping Muslim immigration to the west is also precisely what is best for genuine moderates themselves, so as not to have their own communities swelled by hard-liners coming here bent on demographic jihad and ultimately threatening really moderate Muslims themselves.
What I don't understand though, is how people like Hassan Butt and K. Taher and Ruslan - can remain Muslims? Obviously they must be familiar with their prophet’s history as a murderer and thief and liar and slave-taker and pedophile and all the rest of it. Yet each of them has been able to stand outside of the Muslim myopic norm and see things from the POV of the infidel “Other”. That’s pretty rare. But if they have that capacity for objectivity and reason, then it does befuddle me somewhat as to why they continue to believe that Muhammad was the final messenger of God’s word?
Perhaps Ruslan will venture to comment on that?
Great Post Caroline,
This is what I have come to believe. It is impossible for Mohammed to have been a prophet of God. No one that evil or perverse could possibly have been.
Dante was right. He is frying in the lowest level.
Compare Jesus as a prophet and teacher, to mohammud. There really IS none. Jesus not only preached but did countless acts to prove, and which countless people observed with their own eyes, love for our heavenly father, love for fellow man, service to others and a life of self sacrifice. Compare and constrast that which outlines the life of Mo. Slavery, robbery, pedophilia, domination and subjugation of others, among other horrors. Islam doesn't even enter the realm of a religion in my mind. It has NONE of the hallmarks of a religion in which a person should dedicate their life in the service of others and to their creator with love being the movitaving factor. Guess which mindset appeals most to me (and most sane others?)
dgene, we must be very careful what we say about Islam...
The first part of the quran is full of love, tolerence, forgiveness, etc, but when their numbers become large enough to become a force, Allah decided on new laws..e.g.
In the beginning the Quran says that it is very bad for a Muslim to lie.. The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."
However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged.
On page 247, Tabbarah stated: "Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable...during war, to the infidel, to further the cause of Allah, to their wives etc as long as they dont mean it in their hearts.. and as they are at war with us all the time that means they can tell lies all the time.
Under the concept of Takeyya, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:
Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
Renounce belief in Allah.
Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
Utter insincere oaths.
Unfortunately, when dealing with Muslims, one must keep in mind that Muslims can communicate something with apparent sincerity, when in reality they may have just the opposite agenda in their hearts. Bluntly stated, Islam permits Muslims to lie anytime that they perceive that their own well-being, or that of Islam, is threatened, and why not as Allah was the best deciever.
Then it says in the Sura 3:54, saying that "Allah was the best of deceivers". The phrase of Allah "being the best deceiver". "kheir ol makarein" is also used of Allah in Suras 8:30; 10:22.
Allah is the most deceitful in Sura 3:54 and in Sura 30:8
In sura 10:21 Allah is referred to be the fastest in planning/scheming/deceit.
Another reference to the deceit of Allah: 7:99
and (they) Deceived and Allah Deceived and Allah is the deceivest of deceivers (Sura 3:54)
Nearly the same in verses 3,54; 8,30; 27,50; 13,42; 10,21; (14,46); (43,79); 86,15f.; 7,100
Someone once wrote this and I kept it as I felt that it was so true...
Every one knows the aims of the Mafia, thus if an operation is carried out by only a dozen of them does this mean that the rest of the Mafia are not in agreement with the operation.
Would it not be more so when the gang involved had a god who orders them to slaughter anyone who wont join their gang .
Doesn't it then stand to reason that these slaughters are sanctioned by it's gang leaders (government) especially when non of those involved are EVER charged...and especially when it seems that there is totally no attempt to find, stop or punish these criminals, especially when those who push this teaching (Imams, clerics, teachers) are not stopped by the ordinary gang members nor are they stopped by their governing powers.
Enragedsince1999, I am confused, the Quran says that you are not allowed to be friends with the non Muslim, unless it is to bring him to Allah..
so how can you be a Muslim and go against so much of your own teachings, like slaughter the infidel until the whole world is for Allah??? etc...
Ian and others, in Romans in the bible it says that those who do not know will be judged according to their works..Yes by Jesus death he has built the bridge for which we have been able to make contact with our maker, but there are trillions who haven't known him and have no chance of knowing him, so they are judged according to their works, and yes the bible says that works wont get you to heaven, thus by his death he made it so as we could be connected with God again..
As things cant be explained in full, disagreements on here will only serve to turn people off..
I meant that things cant be explained in full in this space as it would take too long thus disagreements on here will only serve to turn people off..
“What I don't understand though, is how people like Hassan Butt and K. Taher and Ruslan - can remain Muslims?”
Caroline,
Yes, puzzling indeed. Inertia, I suppose. I seem to remember that Martin Luther still regarded himself as a good Catholic. It needs time, I guess. Another thing that puzzles me is how Hassan Butt could have made such a complete volte-face in so short a time, but I may have missed his arguments for his conversion from a raging fanatic to a clear-thinking human being.
Actually, Dante puts Mohammad in the ninth round of the eighth circle of Hell, the next to lowest circle. He's not frying, he is split open from crotch to chin, with his guts spilling out between his legs. As he completes each lap around, his wounds heal, and then back at the starting point a demon with a sword cuts him open anew. The medieval Church regarded islam as a heresy, a wrong interpretation of Christianity, rather than as a separate, pagan, religion. So his punishment is fitting: as he split believers away from the true religion, so he is split.
JFGR - I found this interview of Hassan Butt by Bob Simon. It explains a little bit about what turned him around (theological questions after the 7/7 bombing) but apparently he is writing a book about it as well.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/23/60minutes/main2602308.shtml
(A couple of interesting asides in this interview - most of the funds he raised came from professionals, including doctors, who clearly knew they were donating to the jihad. Also from drug dealers. (As an aside, anyone doing drugs these days could well be contributing to the global jihad. People should think about that!)
Also interesting - he says that one of the key things that radicalizes some young men is that their parents had arranged marriages to women they didn't want to marry whereas the radicals said they could marry any Muslim girl they want).
Caroline, Gaye:
As I stated in one of my earliest posts here, I still differentiate between Islam the religion and Islamism/Islamofascism/Islamo-Nazism, the hate ideology born out of it, but the distinction is largely academic now that Islamism and its more evil mutations are rapidly taking over the Muslim world, just like Nazism took over Germany. Why don't I leave Islam? Yes, maybe inertia, maybe still clinging to the rapidly fading hope that this religion could still be rehabilitated, but in any case, I am not much into any religion right now, not into Islam, and not shopping for any other one either. As I wrote in that earlier post, I don't want to get into any theological debates here Re: superiority of one religion over another. I deal with the urgent reality at hand: the Muslim world poses mortal threat to the Western world, and this threat must be addressed. Just as a German author Hans Habe ("And a Thousand Shall Fall") fought his fellow Germans and desperately called on the US to join the fight against Hitler, I am eager to fight the Muslim enemies of my country word or sword, ballot or bullet, and have been trying to awaken my fellow Americans' awareness as to the true nature of the enemy for years now. The Islamo-Nazis pose a threat potentially greater than German Nazis did now that the mad suicide bomber Ahmadinejad is within a short reach of the ultimate bomb. "Lightning Out of Lebanon" by Tom Diaz and Barbara Newman is a must read for every American who cares for the very physical survival of our country. After Hezbollah, which is simply extention of Iran into Lebanon, blew up US Marines in Beirut, and Reagan ordered the survivors to just run away, Hezbollah followed them all the way here, into the United States, for the next, final phase of striking at the "Great Satan". There are now hundreds of "sleeper" cells in the US. What are they waiting for? The Iranian nukes to be smuggled in. Iran will use suicide bombers, not missles for the nuclear Holocaust of our country. This is why we desperately need a man in charge. Vote for Rudy and pray it is not too late.
Ruslan.
Ruslan - it sounds to me like you're just coasting.
You don't need to get into any theological debates about which religion is better than any other, as there are plenty of folks who don't feel compelled to define themselves one way or the other publicly, when it comes to their private religious/spiritual beliefs. So that's no excuse for clinging to your Muslim identity.
I suspect that should the s**t ever hit the fan, however, you would abandon Islam quite rapidly. But what if it's too late by then? And in the meantime, whether you intend it or not, by belonging to Islam, you are swelling their ranks. They think of themselves as an army. By clinging to your Muslim identity, you are in essence one of their foot soldiers, however reluctant a soldier you may be.
If you are indeed as luke-warm a Muslim as you appear to be, then you ought to do some serious soul-searching and if it turns out that your soul isn't with Islam (and the "prophet" Muhammad), then you really ought to just get out.
On the other hand, if you want to try to make the case that there is a genuine basis for an Islam which is different than “Islamism “ and which entails a fundamental separation of church and state – then I’m all ears. Let's hear it. By all means, make your case.
Caroline,
I have repeatedly and publicly declared myself a soldier against Islamism. This pretty much excludes any Islamist's thinking of me as a "soldier of a Muslim army". As for the religion of Islam, no, there's nothing there that supports the separation of religion and state. Therefore, I want a strong secularist, or better, an atheist, to rule every Muslim country and strictly control the Muslim religion. Sounds far-fetched? But this is being implemented, and quite successfully, in the "stans", the formerly Soviet republics of the Central Asia. As I said in my earlier posts, I was an anti-Communist in the Soviet Union, but now I am a big fan of the former Communist apparatchiks who still rule most of the "stans", and who have transformed themselves into a totally positive force. Take, for instance, Islam Karimov, the President of Uzbekistan. His first name nonwithstanding, he is a Communist and atheist, and uses Soviet methods in dealing with Islam, and those methods have proved to be just perfect to keep Islam in check and keep it from flaring up into Islamism:
1)The Imam of every mosque must be investigated and vetted through the government security services(!);
2)No denigration of any other religion, and no incitement of religious hate allowed(!);
3)No foreighner (think Saudi) is allowed to be a cleric or even a lay prayer leader(!);
4)No foreign money (!) is allowed for any mosque (!).
Check, check, check! This is exactly what we need in this country, but is there any hope our US government will ever dare to even suggest any of that? Worse, our abominable State Dept. turned Karimov into their whipping boy, rabidly bashing him for "violating religious rights of Muslims"! Finally, when the State Dept. condemned him for crushing a jihad 2 years ago, Karimov had enough and expelled our military from his strategic K-2 base that was a great help for us in Afghanistan. Suddenly, the State Dept. vermin turned nice to him! This attitude was not lost on the rest of the "stans", who are now distancing themselves from the US and turning to the US and China, who are only too happy to warmly embrace them.
There must be no Muslim religion in any government, I am not ambivalent on this at all.
As for me, I might still leave Islam, but I am thinking about reality.
Ruslan.
I meant the "stans are turning to Russia and China". The US is a big loser there. The damage caused by the State Dept. to the US strategic interests in that vast, rich, enormously important region is collossal going on catastrophic. The State Dept. and the CIA are 2 Trojan horses in our country, 2 sociopathic fifth-columnist cults, harming it relentlessly and horrendously. They caused 9/11 and countless other calamities. This is why I want Rudy and his FBI friends in the White House to purge the balk of sociopaths from both institutions and keep the rest in check.
Folks, visit Rudy's site JoinRudy2008.com, and learn about his platform. Spread the word personally and through the cyberspace, encouraging more folks to do so. My sense of what is happening in the world has never failed me. All the calamities that befell the US, including 9/11, I foresaw, frustrated and powerless to avert them. It was like watching a car wreck coming, and unable to do anything about it. We are not powerless now! Instead of just posting here venting our frustrations, we have the power to actually make a difference, for for the first time since Henry Jackson in 1976, we have an opportunity to elect a president we deserve. I just have this unmistakable sense that Rudy is one of those great Italians who come from time to time to become the best in the world at what they do, such as Benvenutto Cellini, Leonardo Da Vinci, Antonio Stradivari, Giuseppe Pagannini, Enrico Fermi and others. I have no doubt that Rudy is here to become the greatest president of the United States in its entire history. But for the miracle to happen, we must act, for we are a democracy, and Rudy will become the president only if we elect him. Each and every one of you, folks, can play a real role in this by campaigning for Rudy in the cyberspace. People such as Rudy, Steven Emerson and all those folks of his awesome Investigative Project, Mary Jo White and her great team of Federal Prosecutors who put away the first World Trade Center attackers, the good friends and collegues of hero John O'Neil who tragically died in the 9/11 attacks he fought so valiantly to avert - all those good Americans and thousands of others are our national treasure, and we have been wasting it for too long by not giving all the power to them. Everyone of you, folks, read the July 10 - 17, 2006 issue of the New Yorker: 9/11 was fully preventable, and John O'Neil and other FBI heroes were on top of it, but their every effort was sabotaged by the CIA! If this will not stir you to act, I don't know what will.
Caroline, if and when I leave Islam is not important to me. We have a global war on our hands, and I am totally focused on the strategy of it! Let us all think strategically and unite around Rudy! This is a special and crucial time in history.
ruslan,
sounds like you would be a good candidate for a homeland security agent. possibly they are seeking muslims willing to infiltrate islamic organisations and to retreive valuable information from them.
you should apply to them and help fight hte jihad in the USA.