Another look at the impending collapse of Turkish secularism. "Alliances Shift as Turks Weigh a Political Turn," by Sabrina Tavernise for the New York Times:
ISTANBUL, July 19 — For 84 years, modern Turkey has been defined by a holy trinity — the army, the republic and its founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Each was linked inextricably to the others and all were beyond reproach.But a deep transformation is under way in this nation of 73 million, and elections this Sunday may prove a watershed: liberal Turks, once supporters of the ruling secular elite and its main backer, the military, are turning their backs on them and pledging votes to religious politicians as well as a new array of independents.
They say that the rigid rules of the last century, which prohibit women from wearing Muslim head scarves in public buildings and forbid ethnic minorities to express their identities, need to be left behind.
[...]
“In 50 years, people will write that this was the time Turkey started to come to terms with its own people,” said Suat Kiniklioglu, a foreign policy expert who is one of about 20 liberal Turks who recently joined Mr. Erdogan’s party as part of its effort to appeal more broadly to secular Turkish society.
[...]
Ilhan Dogus, a member of the Young Civilians, an association of young people who oppose the military’s role in politics, said mischievously that educated women in head scarves were more likely than their less religious counterparts to know that Marx refers to a German philosopher, not the British department store, Marks and Spencer.
“This narrow shirt of secularism has become a little too tight and choking for Turkish society,” said Volkan Aytar of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation, a prominent policy research group.
He is referring to Kemalism, the fiercely secular ideology that sought to extinguish religious networks and ultimately religion itself from society.
The state elite “wanted society to fit their theory,” said Recep Senturk, a research fellow at the Center for Islamic Studies in Istanbul. “If religion doesn’t disappear, we’ll make it disappear because our theory says so.”
Liberals like Mr. Uskul are pioneers in joining political forces with Mr. Erdogan’s party, known by its Turkish initials, AK, and considered by many secular Turks to be too Islamic.
In Tarsus, an upper-middle-class town in southern Turkey that has supported secular parties, Mr. Uskul, 63, was talking to lawyers last week, asking for their votes.
“Some of you might be asking, ‘What is he doing in the AK Party?’ ” he said at the Tarsus Bar Association, peering earnestly through rimless glasses. “There was no other party to do what I wanted to do in Parliament. The people who should be defending democracy are holding onto military coups.”
A woman in a black T-shirt shot back: “I wonder whether you still have worries about AK as a threat to secularism?”
He replied: “My wife has no concerns. Nor does my daughter, and you shouldn’t either.”
But I do.
99% of Turks are Muslims. It is only a matter of time before they embrace an Islamic-based government, effectively flushing their own successful society right down the toilet.
Letting them in the EU is a great idea.
I can imagine the fury of a well-educated, secular Turk as he reads this article by the young Sabrina Tavernise, so uncomprehending of Turkish history, and of all that it took to systematically constrain Islam so that the very possibility of some modicum of reasonableness, the very development of an educated secular class, the very class that Sabrina Tavernise and all other Westerners frequent and the only class with which they feel, quite rightly, fully comfortable, came about only because of Ataturk.
If Kemalism is on the ropes, it is not because the Kemalists have been too ruthless but because they have not been nearly ruthless enough. They did not push, relentlessly, their program after the first few decades, and some of those who followed were content to pocket the benefits of Kemalism without systemtatically trying to change the minds of the masses, and the masses remained largely unaffected.
Since, in any society, the primitives will always and everywhere outweigh the others, it was important that those to whom, thanks to Kemalism, the freedom to think was granted, should never gave taken those freedoms for granted. Now it may be too late. Make no mistake; there is a proigram by those who want more and more Islam. Its proponents are patient: look at the statements about waiting for the right moment by the sweet-reasonably sinister Mr. Gulen, waiting in his Washington-area exile, for the results of the election.
While America dithered, and still does, in Iraq, Russia returned to KGB-shchina. While America dithered, and still does, in Iraq, China established economic colonies everywhere, from New York to Belize to West Africa to Italy, and is steadily driving whatever local competition remained, from the silk manufacturers of Como to the makers of pottery in Mexico, into non-existence, while the Administration keeps singing the praises of "free trade" and Nafta, as the free-market fundamentalists they are. While America dithered, and still does, in Iraq (spending $880 billion that China, just as dependent on Middle Eastern oil, for some reason didn't think it had to spend a penny in Iraq to keep being supplied with that oil at the markett price -- is it possible the Chinese understand the workings of the oil market better than the Americans?) Turkey has been allowed to become ever-more thoroughly re-islamized. Softly-softly, Sabrina Tavernise seems to think. I'd rather the Times depended on intelligent and secdular Turks, less readily fooled. Not fooled at all.
Greetings:
“In 50 years, people will write that this was the time Turkey started to come to terms with its own people,” said Suat Kiniklioglu, a foreign policy expert who is one of about 20 liberal Turks who recently joined Mr. Erdogan’s party as part of its effort to appeal more broadly to secular Turkish society."
Judas Goats.
“This narrow shirt of secularism has become a little too tight and choking for Turkish society,” said Volkan Aytar of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation, a prominent policy research group."
Beheading is not a cure for Choking.
Secularism may be tight and a bit choking but it is preferrable to having one's neck broken by the noose on the gallows called Islamania.
Letting them in the EU is a great idea.
Posted by: Miss_Anthrope
Jorge al-bin Bush sure things it is.. In fact he used bullying words such as "racism" to create a chilling effect to prevent EU poloticians from doing the right thing.
And he handed Turkey a powerful rhetorical club which they've been wielding quite effectively. The media in Europe is completely cowed and only Sarkozy in France refuses to be blackmailed thus.
It is really time that US POLoticians stop interfecring and telling the EU what is good for the EU - especially when they FULL WELL know the OPPOSITE is true!
And the Turks had better be careful for what they really want. Such longing for more Islam was heard in 1978 in Iran. The results speak for themselves in that case.
The problem of Turkey is anti-freedom-political Islam. The goal of Turkish Islamists is to use the electorate to gain power to institute the rule of Sharia law. The rule of law by Sharia is not to be equated to the rule of law by social agreement and constitutional government, since the latter insures that we are ruled by our agreed upon freedoms, while the prior insures that we are ruled by religious mandate, as defined by their prophet. So the contest in Turkey is not between secularism and theocracy, but between freedom and submission, to a 1400 year old Arabic imperial imperative to subdue the house-of-harb. If freedom fails in Turkey because of democratic process, it will be their last vote. Once the Islamists are voted into power, it is impossible to vote them out, since their Sharia does not recognize democratic rights, and may even threaten the vote altogether, or just kill them. So if it goes that way, it will be a one way vote, and ultimately the historic completion of the Arabization of Turkey. If that happens, Turkey will fall away from Europe’s economy, and fall headfirst into the socially backward economies of the Middle East, without the oil. Its membership to the EU would be uncategorically disqualified, even by the dhimmi politicians now running Europe. If they choose theocracy over secular democracy, they will end up like Iran, and it will take them centuries to get back their freedoms now enjoyed. Political Islam will then rule them with the mash fisted Sharia. I hope they enjoy ‘chocking’ in their colorful head scarfs now, because later they will be chocking inside their black burquas instead. But it’s their choice, isn’t it? Only, in a post 911 paradigm shifted world, their choice will impact all of us. They better not slide down the slippery slope of Sharia, or else it will be a very bad time for their children and grandchildresn, as the newly reconquered ‘slaves of Allah’.
Hugh, "KGB-shchina" is very popular over there right now. And frankly, it's an easy choice between stability under Putin and chaos under thieves like Berezovski, drunks like Yeltsin (and having crazed Tatars and Chechens running amok).
From the article:
"He is referring to Kemalism, the fiercely secular ideology that sought to extinguish religious networks and ultimately religion itself from society."
Sabrina Tavernise of The New York Times is clueless. Mosques and Madrasses abound in Turkey and have since the time of the revered Ataturk. Mustafa Kemal wanted religion out of government and this effort was reasonably successful until now. I do not understand how anyone so ignorant could have a position in a major newspaper.
For those studying for the GRE's or LSAT’s:
Turkish Secularism is to "narrow-shirt" as Sharia law is to:
a. suspenders
b. Kaffiyeh scarf
c. straitjacket
d. cufflinks
Well well..
How can one conclude that Turkish secularism is on the brink of collapse? Any other proof, please?
I mean.. if you interview someone hailing from "Islamic Studies" then of course he'll be defending AKP. The fanatics defend each other.
Just interview any of the high-ranking Turkish army officials, anyone from CHP or GP or even MHP, and they'll tell you that Islamism is an evil ideology bent on destroying Turkiye.
I also find it ironic that all the Islamists have so vehemently become apostles of democracy. I don't like the idea of a military coup, but if everything else fails then a military coup will be the last option. In other words, there is absolutely no way Turkiye is going back to the clutches of primitive traditions and dogmatic doctrines. We will stand our ground and fight.
Kemalists are not a small, weak minority. Millions and millions of people have gathered in Ankara, Izmir, Istanbul and other cities to show their absolute support for secularism.
One thing though, the United States should stop supporting the AKP immediately. Islamists, moderate or hardcore, are a threat to the very fabric of humanity.
Religion + Politics = Disaster.
Somewhat inspired by my previous post, I think we ought to have a basic literacy quiz on Islam, which should be dragged out to shame any of our elected officials (along the lines of so many of them having no clue about the Shia's and the Sunni's). In that spirit, here are some initial suggestions:
Sura 9:29 of the Koran famously refers to:
a.The fact that there is no compulsion in religion
b.The jizyah
c.The 3 Abrahamic faiths
d.The hajj
In the Koran, the “People of the Book” refers to
a.Zaroastrians
b.Pagans
c.Hindus
d.Jews and Christians
The Burka of medieval Islam is neither narrow nor choking like the shirt of Kemalism, but instead is broad enough to completely smother beauty under a black void.
“This narrow shirt of secularism has become a little too tight and choking for Turkish society,” said Volkan Aytar of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation, a prominent policy research group.
"Why don't you try something a little more comfortable, like this burqa, for the Lady, and for the effendi, this nice galbiya?
"Very nice with beard, habiibi!"
Reminds me of those old movies where the mayor or some influential member of a community persuades "the masses" to submit to the "new order" (Nazis, etc.) without fighting for themselves or their freedoms. The people agree thinking that the mayor knows what is best for the community.
After the fade to black, the next thing you see is that person behind the wire of a prisoner of war camp having been duped into giving up without a fight and believing in the assurances given to him by those who he now recognizes as the enemy.
In Islam, “Jizyah” refers to
a.the obligatory tax leveled on all Muslims for charity
b.the Islamic act of washing parts of the body before prayer
c.one of the eight gates of Islamic paradise
d.the protection tax paid by non-Muslims to the Islamic state
Try it out. If someone you know doesn't know the answer, then you ought not in turn tolerate their ignorant PC lectures about your "hate" and “intolerance”.
Fine let the turks go, but they can kiss goodbye to
1. Nato
2. EU membership (Not wanted anyway)
3. Tourism (No booze=no tourists)
Maybe they wishto return to ottoman empire, not the brightest people.
Should be interesting how the military top brass view this.
“This narrow shirt of secularism has become a little too tight and choking for Turkish society,” said Volkan Aytar of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation, a prominent policy research group.
If your shirt feels like it is choking you the remedy is simple.
Hold your head up higher. (say no to submission)
“This narrow shirt of secularism has become a little too tight and choking for Turkish society”
The solution is of course the straight jacket of Islam.
The only think that'll save Turkey now is another Ataturk, someone who is unafraid to confront the Islamic establishment, someone who'll put them back in their box, and make them afraid to show their heads.
Until that happens, the EU souldn't even consider Turkey as a member.
“This narrow shirt of secularism has become a little too tight and choking for Turkish society,” said Volkan Aytar of the Turkish Economic and Social Studies Foundation, a prominent policy research group.
Secularism doesn't fit Turkish society, so is the reverse also true? Are Turks (and, by extension, all Muslims) too big to fit into tight secular societies? Most Western countries have some repatriating to do and some immigration laws to revise.
Secularism doesn't fit so does that mean we can assume Turkey will adopt the Muslim practice of abrogating treaties with foreign governments when the opportunity presents itself?
Do we need a better reason to ban all Muslim travel (not just immigration) immediately?
Tony Blankley writes about Otto von Habsburg recounting "the story of his many trips to Turkey over the last sixty years, when he, from time to time, visited Mustafa Kemel Ataturk's mausoleum in Ankara. Ataturk, the founder of secular Turkish government after World War I, left instructions for his casket to point 180 degrees away from Mecca, to emphasize the secular nature of his new Turkey. But von Habsburg noticed that, over the years, the casket was slowly moved a few degrees. On his most recent trip, he saw that the casket was now pointing directly toward Mecca.
Tony Blankley - The West's Last Chance pg 152
Mustafa Kemal was an impressive man whose authoritarianism was necessary for an exceedingly backward people, his fellow Turks. Trouble is he didn't go far enough (whether he could have, reasonable minds can debate). He "merely" contained Islam when in fact he needed to eliminate it. And that's really what the world needs to do-------eliminate Islam. Whether it can or not may prove to be the most crucial struggle in all of man's history, for without elimination Islam will always hang around, only too ready to become a burden to the world time and time again.
Well, Kemal understood the nature of the beast and probably did about as much as any one person could do to marginalize Mohammed's creed. To the extent that Turks ignore Kemal's sapience where Islam is concerned, to that extent they are fools. Looks as though the number of fools in Turkey is growing at an alarming rate.
Caroline
Maybe you or someone could create an Islamic Trivial Pursuit - not to clash with Hugh's patented Haram or Halal! (incidentally, Hugh, how's that coming along?) Have 6 categories - (Islamic) history, theology, law, culture, shariah practices and jihad. Same rules as your normal trivia - must get one answer right in each category node before landing on the hub. Allows up to 6 players.
Think Hasbro will object? ;-)
Some fine posts with a lot of information, etc.
Someone pointed out that the Dubya is Turkey's biggest EU proponent.
What a fool he's been.
Some more neo con nonsense about Turkey and the EU.
http://www.henryjacksonsociety.org/
Article "We must support the struggle for a democratic Turkey " By Marko Attila Hoare
Read the last paragraph.
So sad it's funny , so funny it's sad.
I have read most of the comments. As a Turkish citizen I wanted to add these:
- I wish that EU drops Turkey from membership process immediately so that our army can regain his long-tortured power and fight against the sharia-longing so-called "democrat" sharia freaks.
- One who thinks Kemalism is a tight shirt is saying so because Mustafa Kemal has given the shirt to him for almost free of charge. He doesn't know his ancestors, who veawed that shirt in an incredibly tormentous condition. He should lose that shirt, shiver in a shirtless (non-free) state for years and then earn by blood and teeth the shirt back!
- I really really will never understand why the US conservative sect supports AKP, as this party is clearly sharia based and sharia, if nothing else, clearly will ban any Christian belief what-so-ever. Do they really believe a moderate islamic government will yield in what they want (oil)? Or will it yield more suicide bombers. So is AKP a democrat party? It is as democrat as Hitler was. Or even less for that matter...
So what will save us, and the whole word maybe, is that:
- The EU drops its support for AKP and even for Turkey
- The US drops its support for AKP and even for democracy(!!!).
But do I see these happening any time soon? No, I believe they will wait until Turkey turns into sharia and the middle east suicide bombers discover that they can kill more people by using chemical or nuclear bombs.
Comkedi: My highest compliments to you. Mustafa Kemal lives as long as Turks like yourself continue to fight the good fight. You are a true Turkish patriot. The Turks are a very impressive people----brave, sophisticated and resourceful. It's just that their religion of long standing is not impressive at all; indeed, it has been a great hindrance to them in so many ways. Mustafa Kemal understood this perfectly, as you seem to. My best and good luck to you.