From EON:
Ankara - Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan appeared to have easily won re-election with his Islamist-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP) winning almost 48 per cent of the vote, a result that will allow them to comfortably form a single-party government.With just over 70 per cent of the vote counted, the AKP vote nationwide stood at 47.6 per cent, ahead of the staunchly secular Republican People’s Party (CHP) on 19.9 per cent and the far-right Nationalist Movement Party coming in third on 14.7 per cent of the vote.
No other party looked close to passing the 10 per cent of the vote needed to be represented in parliament although a number of pro- Kurdish independents looked set to be elected.
[...]
Erdogan’s AKP campaigned on its strong economic record since first winning power in 2002 but the election will be seen as a victory over not just the opposition but also the Turkish military which has clashed with the government on a number of occasions over the AKP’s Islamist tendancies.
Millions of people urged on by the retired generals took to the streets in April and June to protest the prospect of against the AKP and Gul becoming president.
They objected to Gul’s past involvement in conservative Islamist groups, the fact that his wife wears an Islamic-style headscarf - no president’s wife in Turkey has ever worn one - and also at the prospect of the AKP controlling the government, the parliament and presidency.
The military then stepped in in April effectively scuttling the presidential election process by declaring it would do whatever necessary to protect secularism.
The plot thickens.
So much for the Turks wanting a secular government
All the more reason to embrace the Kurdish independence cause, giving the Kurdish people full independence in the North of Iraq. Any Turkish objections must be disregarded. All the shameful treasons the US has committed against the much-suffered Kurdish people, victims of 1,000 years of atrocities by their Muslim "brothers", just to accomodate Turkish Kurdophobia, it is horrible. No more. For the reasons both moral and strategic, we must put all our might in support of independence for the Iraqi Kurds. Such a Kurdish state can be used as a tool against Iran and Syria, each occupying a large part of Kurdistan, and also against Turkey if it goes totally Islamist and misbehaves against us.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
Sorry, but the kurds arnt any "better" than the turks. That there are muslims suffering under the abuse of other muslims, doesnt mean that Kurdistan will be a free place for say christians, just because themselves are socalled victims. if the kurds had the power over nay other group, they would probably act jsut as bad.
Delusional, aren't we?
Kurds have voted for the Islamist AKP en masse. So much for your idea of secular, enlightened Kurds oppressed by evil Turks!
Ironically, the current American government supports the "moderate" AKP. I know better than to believe in the lies of moderate Islam.. for me Islam is Islam, a backward religion.
So what's the big deal if Islamists have risen to power? A military coup is all that it needs to remove the Islamist government.
Fuck the Islamists,
Fuck AKP,
Fuck el-Tayyib
Kemalist are you Turkish?
Rusland, i googled you and saw you are very active in critisizing the muslim world. Very good. You are a brave man since such vocal outrage is potentially dangerous. You have my admiration.
Kemalist, the deal is that will be the end og Turkey as a democracy, and the secular experiment Ataturk finally failed.
Kemalist, the deal is that will be the end og Turkey as a democracy, and the secular experiment Ataturk finally failed.
Posted by: GeneralObserver [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2007 5:11 PM
I told my wife it would happen. She knows Turkey better than I do but I undertsand the threat of Islam more than her. We will see what the military does. The Turkish Constition demands they act.
Yes, I am Turkish.
The amount of vicious Islamic propaganda that has been circulated in the media has produced this result. Saudi Arabia likes to feed other Islamists, you see. All those conspiracy theories seem to serve a purpose, after all.
The secular experiment did not fail. Our democracy has always been erratic, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Ataturk's legacy is now over.
What it means is that it's time for the Army to make another coup. And I sincerely hope they do that, otherwise all the secular Turks are doomed to suffer from the clutches of Shariah.
Islamists are treacherous and backward, we already knew that. Yet the most disgusting thing I've observed in the elections was the hypocrisy of the Leftists. They always pound on Turkish nationalists and the Kemalists, but they never criticise the Islamists. Who needs Islamists when you have forward-thinking leftists like that?
Thinking of it, maybe it was the anti-American attitude of these stupid communists that alienated the USA from Turkiye. I find it ironic that the United States is waging war against the Islamists worlwide, yet choose to support AKP for some reason.
Kemalist
We have our own morons here. Bush I think lost it after the election. Before he was "You are with us or against us". Not the same man anymore.
My wife is in Adana right now. I bet she is shockedby the results though I warned her this disease will affect Turkey as well. She didnt believe me. I expect an e-mail from her tomarow.
Im not sure a miltary coup will be effective. These guys were democratically elected. Its what the people want. If they know what they are getting is another story.
We are in for dark times. I hope the Turks wake up.They are so nationlistic, I cant beleive they think Islam is the answer.
Turkey under Islamic rule is really not much different than Turkey under rule of Islamic generals.
It's amazing how the prospect of a coup can be considered better than what is there now. Turkey has never been secular, and never will be.
Ataturk was a mass murderer and should be seen in that light, let's face it Turkey has never been an ally of the west, and now hopefully those in the west are willing to wake up to this reality.
States with a significant Islam presence become increasingly pure in the absence of a Dictator (p.s. or the absence of Kemalist's military takeover). Eventually they become pure to the point where they implode. Turkey is en route. Buy into that tall Dubai tower at your own risk.
Democracies with universal voting rights become socialist states because those who excel financially can always be outvoted by those who don’t. ‘Values voters’ and ‘security mom voters’ will always take backseat to economic well-being voters. Eventually these democracies implode as business is chased out. In our case, the factories go to China and wealthy individuals go to the Caribbean. The electorate's dependencies stay here. See Madison and Plato for historical context. See our $70 trillion in unfunded liabilities, growing at $3 trillion per year for modern context. See the current Drudge headlines.
Both political systems are in a race to see who goes pop first. At that point that either system falls down, Harvard Ph.D. Fukuyama’s prediction that we have witnessed the end of history will look kind of silly.
My wife is Turkish, I can tell you life under the generals will be seen much better than what is coming.
Kemalist
Kendine iyi bak, arkadaşim - iyi şanslar! You'll need it now. I for one will be rooting for you and those who think as you do (including all of my Turkish friends).
But I'll also be volunteering to man the gates of Vienna (and Hackney!).
Didn't Erdoğan once describe Democracy as 'a bus to take us to Sharia?'
Un:dhimmi
So much for George Bush's belief that everyone, everywhere longs for Freedom, democracy and justice.
Give Muslims a chance, and they'll vote for Islamic oppression everytime.
I agree with that rational. Though I thought the Turks would be different. They have/had democracy and are nationalistic. I expected better. But then we have morons that vote for people like Ellison and Denis Kucinich.
Muslims always revert back to a ore fundamentalist government every chance they get, I called this 2 years ago.
I called it too. My wife said it wouldnt happen. The people spoke and they want Sharia law.
While you guys see nothing but the victory of an* Islamist party, the real winner is democracy itself. This is nothing but the voter’s answer to the forces trying to hinder the application of democracy in Turkey by:
- not entering the parliament to elect the president,
- taking the presidential election to the Supreme Court on ridiculous grounds,
- cancelling the presidential election through some funny interpretation of the imperfect constitution,
- posting an e-Coup overnight, threatening to march in,
- occupying the presidential post after the term is over,
- raising the national threshold to prevent the representation of Kurds in the parliament.
-
Thank God, there was no narrow margin between any of the parties to cause any trouble. (Remember the US elections?...)
(*) Not ‘the’, because the real Islamist party in Turkey is SP (Saadet Partisi), whose followers are mostly either bearded or scarfed. (But not both!)
Kemalist,
Turkey is not Algeria. The army won’t march in just by looking at the election results. Anchors call this the Voters’ Coup. After all, soldiers are people too. They enjoy the economic stability and low inflation rates as much as civilians do. They’ll show their teeth one last time to make sure that they can see the hair color of the next first lady. That’s it.
Elric66,
While the Turkish Constitiution may make some professors laugh, I don’t recall reading an article that calls for the urgent action of the army depending on election results. It was easier for them to take over in the past, while the threat’s color was red. They need a legitimate cause, and even with that, it will turn the path to EU into a blind alley (as if it weren’t!)
I guess then democracy won in Paliland too.
The way it's being presented on the news here (NZ), is that the poorer, rural areas have been helped economically by the AKP. If these, more conservative and islamic, areas are voting AKP, and these people are also more enthusiastic breeders, of course islamists can easily 'buy' them and thus buy Turkey.
My question is: will the EU have the sense to keep Turkey OUT now?
How about a swap? All the headscarf-wearing, backward and uneducated Turks that live in Germany etc for the modern, secular and freedom-loving Turks who might like to get out now?
A recent article in jpost.com pointed out that Turkey is the most anti-American of the Islamic states, mainly because of the resurgence of PKK terror, blamed on "our" Iraq.
I'd like to know more about how Turkish secularism evolved; perhaps then we can map a strategy for bringing it back.
Meanwhile, the Islamic birthrates are high, and the Islamic IQs are low!
Its very hard to take Oben d'Imishte serious when he says the winner is democracy. No the results show democracy in muslim countries are not possible. When the party who wanna abolish democracy win, its quite a stretch to call this a great day for democracy.
Obviously, the Quran and democracy are two contradictions in my opnion.
Using democracy to destroy democracy isnt a win for democracy.
Read Peter Balakian's "The Burning Euphrates" and you will understand that it was the Kurds who did much of the "ground work" in the Turks' extermination of the Armenians and their total uprooting from the six Armenian villayat of eastern "Turkey" or Anatolia. Kurds not only gleefully murdered the Armenians, usurping their lands and pillaging their homes, but then proceded to exterminate the Pontic Greeks. In what was to become Iraq, the Kurds often participated in the persecution of the Assyrians and Chaldeans. How many of you realize that not only Armenians, but the Greeks, the Pontic Greeks, AND other non-Muslims were slaughtered for sport? Some 1.5 million Greeks, Assyrians, and Chaldeans all told. Add that to the 1.5 million Armenians. The Jews were slated to be on the "list" next but the British defeated the Turks. In "Palestine" a large section of the Jewish population was uprooted and exiled to Egypt.
Supporting Kurdish nationalism would cause even more hell to break loose throughout that entire region; even more ugliness than we have ever seen before.
Supporting a "free" Kurdistan is not the answer. In fact, it is the anti-Islamist "right wing" and nationalist Turks who are the strongest bet against an Islamist takeover in Turkey.
It will be interesting to see what happens since the promotion of democracy is a strategic goal of US policy. It would be quite ironic if Turkey now became an anti-Western strategic threat thanks to the electoral process.
It's also apropos that there has been a big increase in anti-Semitic literature and film in Turkey, and Mein Kampf is a big seller.
Turkey was a key ally of Germany and they may wind up on the wrong side again in the war against Islamofascism.
Why Turkey must not be entered into the EU.
Along with Albania - Europe's nightmare.
Why all the worry about Turkey in the EU? Europe will be Islamic with or without Turkey.
It will be interesting to see what happens since the promotion of democracy is a strategic goal of US policy. It would be quite ironic if Turkey now became an anti-Western strategic threat thanks to the electoral process.
Posted by: jewdog at July 22, 2007 7:44 PM
------
Yes it is interesting that GWB still believes he is going to spread "freedom" into, while his allied becomes islamic. However, I think the military never will allow an islamic state arise. Remember, even if the islamits are in majority, they probably are the poorer/less powerfull ones, since its not cheap to feed a lot of kids.
"I find it ironic that the United States is waging war against the Islamists worldwide, yet choose to support AKP for some reason."
Thats because we have ignorant politicians here in the U.S. that have always held the line "support the lesser of two evils" close to heart in foreign policy. Only 1% of rat poison is deadly... what is less evil, a moderate form of Sharia? That only will hold the door open for Jihadees to slither through a later time?
I'm sure the election was a fair one, yes? All of the subservient headscarved women were probably told by their husbands how to vote, just like their daughters are told that they'll be circumcised.
I have several good Greek friends who say there are very few Turks you can trust and that all Albanians are bastards (except Mother Teresa).
Lets not forget who has the second largest army in NATO no thanks to our wonderful defense plan. The last hope would be a army take over (again).
In the past the U.S. did not care because it suited our purposes in fighting the soviets and the U.S. - Turkish military ties were strong. Also it was the Turkish military who was more supportive of the Ataturk vision.
Today that might not be the case with Turkish military. How strong is their secularism today? Worse yet even if they do take the country over King George (former Duke of Crawford, TX) has made it clear his dream of a democratic fantasy world were all men of "god" are equal and do international business deals. I have a hard time thinking he will support a army take over. Condi (his lap dog) has already said so...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016299.php
Thus Bush is happy at this development. A man of "god" won and even better he is pro-international trade which will make all those international business men of mystery just fall all over themselves for the bling bling.
Yep...just wonderful.
I am staggered.
Ok, not really at all.
dgene
Over at CNN...
"This is the best-case scenario for markets ... The question now is how is the establishment going to react and this is something the markets are going to be worried about," said analyst Simon Quijano-Evans."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/22/turkey.elections.reut/index.html
Simon Quijano-Evens is typical....
It about the Markets....
Get their EU card ready...
:)
1989 was the year. It's 2007 now. Who's gonna call a Moslem a Moslem? Too early yet, maybe.
Well I can't help it...
Dinesh D'Souza has weighed in (what was his new nick name again...I forget).
See: http://newsbloggers.aol.com/bloggers/dinesh-dsouza/
He is on a roll...
Today's entry: "A Victory for Muslim Democracy"
With such gems...
"As I predicted, the AK party in Turkey has swept the election, winning at least 331 out of 550 seats."
"I won't be surprised if Turkey's Christians voted for the AK party."
On July 20th it was "Turkey Ready to Bury Ataturk"
You can only guess where this leads...
Dinesh D'Souza probaly thought Hamas winning was a "victory" for democracy as well.
Check out this comment
Dinesh, Another Fine Write-Up to earlier one titled 'Turkey Ready to Bury Ataturk For Ever' God Willingly How True The Future is Unfolding, And For The Better Of Secular & Democratic World The Likes of Ataturks Be Buried For Ever And Ever, The Sooner The Better, Then The World Be Free Of Kidnappings, Child Rapes, Heist, Nudity, Pornography, Daylight Murders, Politics of Corruption and Greed, All These Morals Are SHAME on Ataturks Like Created Secular Democracies.
Farooq Khan
New Jersey
Where do I start? LOL
Dinesh D'Souza believes about Turkey whatever it is that Mustafa Akyol tells him. And he tells him that the "Kemalists" are bad, and the "good Islamists" are "good" and the West should try, try, try, to see this for the good outcome that it is, see it as a signpost along the way of the triumph, first in Turkey and then in the rest of the Islamic lands, and then ultimately all over, of the thing that is good for everything that ails you -- not love, but True Islam. And how do we know that it is True Islam, and that True Islam will cure all societal and other ills? We know it because Mustafa Akyol is here to tell us so -- all of us, but especially, for now, Dinesh D'Souza, who promises to pass it on.
My wife is in Adana right now. I get a woman on the street report on how and why the Islamists won.
Democracy without a proper moral foundation is a sham democracy. Here's an example: Ten people, six men and four women, are stranded on a desert island. The six men vote to do whatever they want to with the four women. Now, this is democracy in the sense of majority rule but it is bogus democracy because it is not also infused with a proper ethical sense. Look at Hamas' electoral victory in Gaza not long ago. So what? Hamas is not possessed of a proper moral awareness and thus its majority victory was hollow. So it is with all of the Islamic world because Islam has an extremely warped morality as evidenced by the Koran, the Hadith, the Sunnah and sharia. This recent election in Turkey is yet more evidence that merely winning an election (and let's assume it was a fair one) is not enough. Whether a society seeks its principles of correct conduct from philosophy or religion, they must be sound principles. Sound Islamic principles is an oxymoron.
On a less theoretical matter, I would ask anyone who cares to repsond here what are the odds of a Turkish military coup and what percentage of the Turkish people would support that?
Democracy without a proper moral foundation is a sham democracy. Here's an example: Ten people, six men and four women, are stranded on a desert island. The six men vote to do whatever they want to with the four women. Now, this is democracy in the sense of majority rule but it is bogus democracy because it is not also infused with a proper ethical sense. Look at Hamas' electoral victory in Gaza not long ago. So what? Hamas is not possessed of a proper moral awareness and thus its majority victory was hollow. So it is with all of the Islamic world because Islam has an extremely warped morality as evidenced by the Koran, the Hadith, the Sunnah and sharia. This recent election in Turkey is yet more evidence that merely winning an election (and let's assume it was a fair one) is not enough. Whether a society seeks its principles of correct conduct from philosophy or religion, they must be sound principles. Sound Islamic principles is an oxymoron.
On a less theoretical matter, I would ask anyone who cares to respond here what are the odds of a Turkish military coup and what percentage of the Turkish people would support that?
Democracy without a proper moral foundation is a sham democracy. Here's an example: Ten people, six men and four women, are stranded on a desert island. The six men vote to do whatever they want to with the four women. Now, this is democracy in the sense of majority rule but it is bogus democracy because it is not also infused with a proper ethical sense. Look at Hamas' electoral victory in Gaza not long ago. So what? Hamas is not possessed of a proper moral awareness and thus its majority victory was hollow. So it is with all of the Islamic world because Islam has an extremely warped morality as evidenced by the Koran, the Hadith, the Sunnah and sharia. This recent election in Turkey is yet more evidence that merely winning an election (and let's assume it was a fair one) is not enough. Whether a society seeks its principles of correct conduct from philosophy or religion, they must be sound principles. Sound Islamic principles is an oxymoron.
On a less theoretical matter, I would ask anyone who cares to respond here what are the odds of a Turkish military coup and what percentage of the Turkish people would support that?
Give Muslims a chance, and they'll vote for Islamic oppression everytime.
Posted by: rational at July 22, 2007 6:30 PM
I agree with that, rational. Though I thought the Turks would be different. They have/had democracy and are nationalistic. I expected better. But then we have morons that vote for people like Ellison and Denis Kucinich.
Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 6:32 PM
Rational is right Elric66. Why should you have expected any different with the Turks. Islam f++cks brains. Muslims are muslims, they'll side with Islam every time, democracy and secularism be damned, when push comes to shove. Turkey is a lost cause, just like Egypt. There is no hope for anyone/anything infected with the Islamic virus. Once it sets in, it's in for the kill.
I wasnt totally sold on Turkey. I know Mein Kampf is a best seller and the biggest movie of all time was "Valley of the Wolves". Islam has really infected Turkey the past few years. It will be like Egypt in 10 years
On a less theoretical matter, I would ask anyone who cares to respond here what are the odds of a Turkish military coup and what percentage of the Turkish people would support that?
I would say not many since the AK won in a landslide.
Hugh
Yep...Mustafa Akyol is the puppet master of DD as evidenced by Akyol's glowing review of DD's greatest masterwork..."The Enemy at Home"...
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/03/akyol-on-the-enemy-at-home/
More on Mustafa Akyol....
I don't know if you have seen this article yet. It is from 2005 but it is funny...
http://www.pitch.com/2005-05-05/news/your-official-program-to-the-scopes-ii-kansas-monkey-trial/
It appears in 2005 Mustafa Akyol (Dinish D'Souza's Daddy) was flown in Kansas to support Intelligent Design (or his version Islamic Intelligent Design).
Oh it gets better. In the article according to Umit Sayin (Istanbul University forensics professor) Akyol was one of the leaders of the Islamic creationist. "There is no fight against the creationists now. They have won the war,".
He then goes on to say...
"It's hopeless here," Sayin says. "I've been fighting with these guys for six years, and it's come to nothing." As a result of the BAV campaign and other efforts to denounce evolution, he adds, most members of Turkey's parliament today not only discount evolution but consider it a hoax. "Now creationism is in [high school] biology books," Sayin says. "Evolution is presented [by BAV] as a conspiracy of the Jewish and American imperialists to promote new world order and fascist motives ... and the majority of the people believe it."
Oh the future fun we will have with these folks...
Oh Scopes where are you???
YEP, so much for Turkey being a Secular state.
What a joke.
Bye bye EU
To pez -
Look, this is really off the main topic of the Islamisation of Turkey. But I can't let your sweeping dismissal of the universal franchise in countries like Australia or the USA, go unchallenged.
In your view, 'those who excel financially' are the only people who should be allowed to vote.
Definition, please! what, precisely, do you regard as 'excelling financially'? In dollars and cents. Real property? Business turnover? Annual wage?
And since you must have in mind a specific monetary value...is that amount (that bar that in your mind OUGHT to separate the 'voter' from the 'not fit to vote') above, or below, where you yourself are placed?
Myself, I have difficulty viewing the acquisition and possession of riches as an infallible guide to virtue and intellect, or political nous. The mafioso don, or the drug baron, is rich, with thriving businesses and substantial real property...but is he therefore fit to become mayor?
I speak as the daughter of a farmer who worked hard all his life, and owned only a small, poor piece of land. He built his own house. He got 8 children through school. He contributed to the RSL (= veterans' association), and actively took part in volunteer organisations such as the Bush Fire Brigade. Would you set the value of 'property that a man [not a woman?] must own to be able to vote', or the amount of annual income earned, so high that men like my father would be excluded?
Think hard, my friend, before you start trying to convince the lawmakers in America, or in other Western countries, that they ought to take the vote away from people like my dad (who has always voted for conservative parties, BTW). The ordinary folks, who haven't gone to Uni to swallow the 'religion of peace' propaganda, and would never read Esposito or Armstrong, just might be more realistic-minded than those with more money but less sense.
desertdawg29palms I personally knew that the Kurds were the henchmen who were responsible for the majority of the murders during the genocides of the Greeks, Armenians et al.
However I do not believe it is fair to paint it in a way that takes blame away from Turkey. The Kurds were quite simply subordinates who commenced those attacks and crimes on Turkish orders, and in conjunction with their Turkish masters.
I personally don't give a damn if there's a Kurdistan or not, but if there is one I see it as another nail in the coffin of Turkey, and that's not all that bad.
Turkey will never truly be a civilized country as it was born from the most evil Islamic Empire and culture ever. It appears the Seljuk Turks never went away.
Well, since Robert couldn't get any examples of 'Traditional Muslims' from DD, he now has Erdogan, and can maybe discuss him @ their next encounter - if and when that is.
This is the very same way that EU countries will fall.
Kemalist
Kemal did almost everything right - replace the Arabic script with Roman, abolish the Caliphate, ban the hijab, enforce martial law, et al.
Only thing he didn't to - ban Islam, and replace it with something else, like Christianity. Big mistake. One that Turkey is now about to pay for.
It's Iran circa 1979.
People vote primarily for economic reasons.Previous governments led Turkey to hyperinflation while Erdogan managed to drop inflation and achieve a steady rise of Turkish GNP.Analysts never say anything about economy because they will have to explain the spectacular contrast between the achievements of secularists and islamists.Secularists were too attached to special interests of state bureaucracy to succeed in economy.
quoting athenian:
Analysts never say anything about economy because they will have to explain the spectacular contrast between the achievements of secularists and islamists.
The "achievements" of islamist AKP is solely based on the incredible US and EU Support. Or should I say unbelievable? Why on earth would an all Christian community back a radical islamist party so enthusiastically?
Anyhow, keep a close watch on the economics of Turkey. It won't take more than a year for AKP economic policies will collapse since they sold every liquidity source that government had in 4,5 years and now there is little or nothing to sell.
Oh by the way, I hope I am wrong, AKP's policy of economics will prevail and Turkey pays all her debts. Than we won't be in such a hurry to join EU and both parties (I mean the ones who doesn't want Turkey in EU and the ones who doesn't want to join EU) will live happily ever after.
Infidel Pride: "Only thing he didn't to - ban Islam, and replace it with something else, like Christianity. "
You are assuming that since Kemal Ataturk was opposed to religion in politics, that he was pro-Christian. Kemal Ataturk said this about Islam: "Our religion is the most reasonable and natural religion."
Even secular Turks who are opposed to religion have cultural/historical identity with Islam. After all, Turks, as Ottoman empire, fought against Christians of Europe -- conquered Constantinople -- for 1000 years. There is no chance of Turks (at least in any significant quantity) converting to Christianity.
In fact, in the last 1,400 years, no Muslim majority land has ever converted to Christianity. But especially for someone like Turks who have a long history of wars against Christians of Europe -- starting with crusades and then as Ottoman empire -- there is zero chance. I have seen even some atheist Turks identity themselves as Muslims (is some weird cultural/historic way). Very similar to how some atheists identity themselves as Jewish (for some strange reason).
Well, I am an atheist Turk and I definitely do not identify myself as a Muslim. You may be surprised to meet some quite Islamophobic people here.
The way I see it all the religions are empty and backward, but Islam is the most backward religion amongst all.
I'll stay my ground and fight. We, secular Turks, are now officially a minority, so will the West please support us now?
The Army is still very secular, but I'm not sure if they'll interfere quickly, though I pray that they do. If there's another military coup, I'll join the Army to do voluntary service.
Ironically, the far-right nationalists are now vehemently against the Islamists, and that's some good news. Because the Turks are fiercely nationalistic, there may be a way to resurrect nationalism and get rid of the Islamists once more.
"Ironically, the far-right nationalists are now vehemently against the Islamists, and that's some good news. Because the Turks are fiercely nationalistic, there may be a way to resurrect nationalism and get rid of the Islamists once more."
-- from a posting above by a citizen of Turkey
Not sure why it should be "ironically" that the "far-right nationalists are now vehemently against the Islamists" because that was always the case, wasn't it? After the initial flourish of laws in the time of Ataturk himself -- to limit the power of Arabs, Arabic, arabization by providing a Qur'an in Turkish and with a Turkish commentary, to end for Turkish of the Arabic and adopt the Latin script, to give women the right to vote, to create a ministry of religious affairs that would monitor or even write the sermons, that in the armed forces those who gave signs of deep belief (such as frequent reading of the Qur'an) would be cashiered, that higher education was strictly secular, put in the hands of the those leery of Islam (surely one of the first things that the new regime will attempt to do is to take on again the universities and those who still control them, and will attempt to discharge those, especially certain brave Rectors, who have so far remained firm in keeping Erdogan and others of the islamisant line from gaining control in the Wars of the Rectors), and of course clothing -- the banning of the hijab in government offices, or on official business (see the wife of Abdullah Gul, see the wife of Taycip Erdogan), and forcibly imposing Western dress on men, with such measures as the Hat Act (it is much harder to pray five times a day with a Western visored cap or hat than with a fez). The steady and relentless pressure of such laws, and of the attitude of suspicion and hostility toward Islam -- recognized as the very thing that was holding Turkey down and out -- helped create the class of "Muslim-but-secular" Turks who are a much greater proportion of the Muslim population than in any member of the O.I.C. save, possibly, Kazakhstan (with the best results among the five stans, possibly because of the large non-Muslim population -- Russians, Jews, and many other "nationalities," including, even, Koreans).
But those laws were not end of it. Dealing with the primivite masses, the Kemalist Turks in control developed an alternative narrative to the narrative of Islam. It went like this: the "best of people" were no longer the Arab Muslims (for the Turks, like the Iranians contemptous of the "desert" Arabs, also dimly recognized that Islam was a vehicle for Arab supremacism)), but the Turks themselves, the "Sun People." Inonu worked on this. It offered the myth of "the Turk," a category that both appeared to exclude non-Muslims (Christians and Jews could be citizens of Turkey, with theoretical legal equality, but they were not "Turks"), but at the same time, backdated the claim of the Turks, back through the Osmanlis and the Seljuk Turks, back through Byzantium, all the way to the Hitties, so that everything that happened in Anatolia seemed to be appropriated into the "history of the Turk." But more important than this has been the cult of Ataturk, the books about him, the formerly omnipresent pictures of him, the warrior at Gallipoli, the wise lawgiver pondering his nation's course at Dolmabahce Palace, the all-knowing all-wise never-to-be-questioned leader who ended up -- unsurprisingly -- as a replacement for Muhamamd, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil.
In the end, the secular Turks didn't do enough. They lazily relied on the army to protect them, the army that would stage a coup, and come to their rescue. But an army can stage a coup only when Islam is still in a state of weakness, and the same infiltration that has gone on in many parts of Turkish society has also been going on, still at the lower levels, of the army. And given the way in which the Islamic forces have so cleverly used their time in office to appear, quite wrongly, as a "moderate" force, a "new kind of Islam" -- the kind of thing that the defeated secularists, and Western governments all want desperately to believe because the truth is too unpleasant, too hard to take -- one wonders if the army can indeed stage another coup.
If it does, or if somehow Turkey avoids the worst -- and why didn't those secularists, all these years, for the past half-century, why didn't they work and work and work like madmen to change the minds of men, to continue the work of Ataturk, to substitute not a crude cult of "the Turk" and the "Sun People" and Ataturk as the Great Man, but to steadily create a class of Western men, encouraging skepticism and a spirit of criticism and self-criticism, that could exist with a reasonable patriotism? Why didn't they, long ago, begin to discuss, for example, the Armenian question, and instead of shunning the issue, trying to shut down all discussion inside and outside Turkey, study those mass murders as being prompted -- as indeed they were -- not by "the Turks" engaged in ethnic warfare, but by Muslim Turks (and Muslim Kurds too), against Armenians because they were Christians, as the detailed first-person memoirs, with the shouts of "giaour" and the fiendish glee with which the pregnant wives of priests were immolated, help to make clear. Why not, in other words, blame Islam-maddened Turks and Kurds, and not "Turks and Kurds," that is -- blame Islam -- for what happened?
And why did secular Turks not look closely at the example of Iran, where secular, leftist Iranians were snookered by Khomeini and the True Believers, into helping overthrow the Shah (corrupt, vainglorious, but compared to what followed, he and his court, those hoveydas and tabatabais, look better every day) and then destroyed? It will always be that way. The Muslims will use, as they are now using some among the secularists, to deplore the army, to deplore the laws that the threat of Islam makes necessary -- and those secularists, not having studied carefully the example of Iran. For god's sake, what happened to the elegant Bakhtiari? To Bani-Sadr? To Ghotbzahadeh? What happened to Iranian intellectuals? Who was jailed? Who went mad in jail? Who was murdered, who with his wife was decapitated, and their heads left on either side of the mantelpiece in their house? Haven't the past nearly thirty years of the Islamic Republic of Iran right next door taught the Turkish secularists, the ones who think that Turkey can be just as solicitous of civil rights as the United States, when it faces a sinister and very cunning enemy, what they needed to know?
The Turkish secularists let the army be their final protection. They accepted Kemalism, and the benefits it brought (it made their own existence possible, and a quick glance at any Arab country, where ethnic identity and faith are mutually reinforcing), but were not grateful enough, did not continue to work to weaken the power of Islam over the minds of men, were not sufficiently relentless and ruthless, did not stress or even make the connection between all the failures – political and economic failures (Turkey’s current boom deflects attention from the high permanent unemployment rate, and may also be partly the consequence of the giant sums being expended in Iraq by the Americans, and dislocations in Iraq that redound to Turkish benefit), but also social and intellectual (the bookstores of Istiqlal Caddesi are one thing, the Islamic bookstores quite another) and moral (the refusal to discuss the mass-murder of Armenians, or the treatment of the Jewish refugees on the Struma, or the massacres in Smyrna, not to mention the Varlik Vergesi (a special, confiscatory tax imposed during World War II on Jews, Armenians, and Greeks), and the attacks on the Greek community of Istanbul in 1955 (see “The Mechanism of Catastrophe” by Speros Vryonis), all part of the continued discrimination and persecution that has helped to reduce the non-Muslm proportion of Istanbul’s population from 50% in 1914 to 1% today. Surely these things need to be written about, studied, discussed in Turkey – and not only intermittently, and then by Orhan Pamuk of or someone of similar protecting fame, but continually, as part of of the accepted daily fare, as openly as in Western countries their historic misdeeds are analyzed and discussed – for Turkey’s secularists should wish to imprint on the collective mind the importance of study, investigation, analysis, and that includes what, in the history of such mistreatment of non-Muslims, is owed to the promptings of Islam and not to some “ethnic” conflict as, at times, one is lead to believe: that “the Turks” made war on “the Armenians” when in fact it was Muslims, Turks and Kurds,who made war on Christian Armenians and for reasons having to do with their being Christians more than their being Armenians.
In the schools, beginning with higher education, secularists need to insist that this subject, of Islam and its influence on Turkish behavior, be discussed. Along with this, why should there not begin to be open discussion of how a land completely un-Muslim became Islamized, and how, indeed, so many of those who proudly call themselves Turks, would discover, if they could or would investigate, are in fact the descendants of forcibly converted, or seized, Christians and Jews. How man fiercely nationalist or Islamic Turks, for examplewere Armenians two or three generations ago?).
The problem of the Turkish secularists is that they represent, at most, perhaps 25% of the population. That, after 80 years of Kemalism. That isn't enough. It won't be enough to withstand a cunning, tireless, relentless enemy of secularism.. The Islamic side knows how to wait, and work, steadily, for their ends. For one startling example of this, see Fathulleh Gulen's counsel of cunning and patience (recently translated by the scholarly Samaritans at www.MEMRI.org). Here is the most telling part:
"You must move in the arteries of the system, without anyone noticing your existence, until you reach all the power centers… until the conditions are ripe, they [the followers] must continue like this. If they do something prematurely, the world will crush our heads, and Muslims will suffer everywhere, like in the tragedies in Algeria, like in 1982 [in] Syria… like in the yearly disasters and tragedies in Egypt. The time is not yet right. You must wait for the time when you are complete, and conditions are ripe, until we can shoulder the entire world and carry it… You must wait until such time as you have gotten all the state power, until you have brought to your side all the power of the constitutional institutions in Turkey… Until that time, any step taken would be too early - like breaking an egg without waiting the full 40 days for it to hatch. It would be like killing the chick inside. The work to be done is [in] confronting the world. Now, I have expressed my feelings and thoughts to you all - in confidence… trusting your loyalty and sensitivity to secrecy. I know that when you leave here - [just] as you discard your empty juice boxes, you must discard the thoughts and feelings expressed here."
One thing the secular Turks of the poster’s apparent ilk can now do is make sure that all the Westerners they know, those long resident in Istanbul (of the Freely sort), those who come to study or trade, those whom they will continue to meet abroad, Western politicians, military men, academics, journalists, are made fully aware of their plight, and warned about the dangers of taking this "moderate Islamist" (as the BBC is now calling it) victory as anything other than a danger, a menace. The secularists should work away among the thinking portion of the Turkish population abroad -- for example, among the millions in Western Europe -- to enroll them in a campaign that can be billed as "upholding the legacy of Ataturk." (If the secularists ever manage to return to power, chastened, they must do much more than merely "uphold the legacy of Ataturk" but extend it, far beyond what they have done so far). And those Turkish secularists who once looked to the army to rescue them, in case of need, and now think that they can be rescued, or at least the problem shared with others by having Turkey admitted into the E.U., should instead realize that Turkey will not be, and should not be, admitted into the E.U., and that they will have to rely mostly on themselves, and cannot expect the menaced Infidels of Western Europe to share their danger in quite so immediate and menacing a way.
They should understand this rejection of Turkey's application -- understand it sympathetically. Would they, were they the citizens of Italy or France, want a Muslim country, with a population of 80 million, to become part of the E.U.? Would they want Muslims from Turkey, or other Muslims who could far more easily move into the E.U. from Turkey (think of the security problems as Arabs and Iranians -- hard for the Westerners to distinguish from Turks -- would try to enter the E.U. as "Turks"), moving freely about, visa-less, what would be one big Schengenland? Of course you wouldn't, and any resentment at the West for not wishing to share the problem of Islam more than it already does, is misplaced.
The Turkish secularists, like the Iranian secularists, did not realize that the primitive masses will always return to Islam -- or rather, the hold of Islam is so great, that they will not have left them in the first place, and what happens in the capital (Istanbul,Teheran) is not what happens elsewhere . Never have the secularists, or "leftists" as they are often crudely and inaccurately called by the Western press, managed to outfox the upholders of Islam. It is always the other way round.
Looks like dark times ahead for Turkey. A shame--I had the good fortune of going there briefly last year, and it's truly a magnificent country. I shudder to think what will happen when the tensions erupt.
What the hell outcome could any reasonable person expect other than what occurred in the Turkish election?Last numbers I saw was that Turkey was in the high 90+ percentile a MUSLIM country.
How can anyone be surprised ?
NO...the military will NOT act,they see where the majority of people voted.
"greatcometof1577":
Exactly on point regards "Islamic Creationist" theory...this will get pushed big time now.
To wit:
It will be the voice of Adnan Oktar of Turkey,who,under the name of Harun Yahya,has produced numerous books,videos & DVDs on science & faith,in particular what he calls the "deceit" inherent in the theory of evolution.His "Atlas of Creation" is turning up EVERYWHERE,unsolicited,in mailboxes of scientists,members of Congress,academia,science museums,etc.
"Atlas of Creation" is probably the largest (11 x 17,& 12 lbs. almost 800 glossy pages lavishly illustrated) beautiful creationist book produced yet to challenge Darwin's theory,which Mr. Yahya calls (and get this) a feeble & perverted idealogy (referring to Darwin) contradicted by the Qur'an.
How's that for Islamic "taqiyya" technique ?
Hugh
All these stuff you mention above are correct but incomplete but also obvious (for the educated) but also oblivious (for both local and some European/American morons).
If secularism in Turkey has been on the brink of collapse it is not solely the outcome of the policies of so-called secular but never truly secular corrupt politicians who ruled the system after Ataturk so far and who have opted for the primitive but effective way of giving concessions under the guise of granting religious freedom such as opening up mosques here and there, increasing the number of religious lycees (called Imam Hatip). It is also the outcome of the alliance of now financially quite powerfull islamist sects with the US and EU governments.
One must be extremely naive not to understand from the statements of George “W.C” Bush administration, the EU commisioner for enlargement, Israel, Greece, Cyprus and Barzani and Talabani the profile of the political party they openly support. But why should they support AKP?
The United States of Arabia (USA) support AKP because they turn a deaf ear on what is happening in the North Iraq and are willing to give concessions not only on Kurdish issue but on many issues as well such as allowing new US bases on Turkish soil. As long as Akp is in power, they can be blackmailed to prevent the army to enter the North Iraq in the pursuit of the kurdish terrorist group PKK. For Bush administration a docile and mild(!) islamist government is better suited to US ambitions over Iraq than a secular and nationalist government. They can be blackmailed because the economy is so vulnerable that it is virtually managed by IMF and Wordlbank now.
A nationalist government would not be indifferent to the fate of fellow Turcomans in the now Kurd-controlled area. A nationalist government would take necessary measures to stop the infiltration of the borders by the Kurdish terrorists. And this would shatter the image of Barzani, the now sweet boy of the US.
Israel, once had established many partnerships with the Turkish army like, for instance the modernization of F-16 fighters of the Turkish air force was handed over to an Israeli firm. After all, Turkey has been the only country to entertain normal diplomatic ties with the Jewish state among all muslim countries. Israeli jets have many times used the airspace over Konya (a town in the south of capital) for training their fighters (a small country with a limited airspace). Then why the deterioration of the relationship between these two?
Because, Israelis now judge that it is in their interest to have Kurd state in the midts of a hostile and unstable Middle East so that it can be used as bullwark against the hostile Iran and if necessary against the Arab countries around. They are willing to take this step even at the expense of the deterioration of the ties with the secular circles in Turkey.
Greece and Cyprus, being arch-enemies of Turkey, find that increasing tension in Turkey would cover up their interests because by hiding behind their EU membership they can get many concessions particularly with respect to Cyprus problem. They also find that, being anti-nationalist and pro-ummah, AKP would steer the country away from the nationalistic concerns in the mess of islamic drunkenness so that they would grab a portion of the pie. They hope that Akp, being itself built on religious background, would even be more sensitive to requests such as the recognition of the ecumenical authority of Barthelemos, the restitution of Agia Sophia to Orthodoxy for worship.
EU’s stance is purely economic. Already a substantial number of EU firms have already gotten important economic concessions from the AKP government. A large number of banks have been sold to EU banks (inter alia Greek Alphabank), some seaports have been sold as well. Largest petrochemical monopoly Petkim has been sold to a Russian-Kazakh partnership. The national telecom company was purchased by British Vodaphone. Several public enterprises will be in the cue of privatization.
It is estimated that more than 88% of the share trading at the Istanbul Stock Exchange has been handled by foreign investors, among them particularly George Soros.
Isn’t Islam wonderful? How else the majority of the people can be muted so that they will not notice how cleverly they are being robbed of their national wealth?
Simply, allow more and more minarets to rise up to sky, enroll more and more students in religious schools, enlist more and more imams in public services. Distribute to the masses (sorry islamic hordes I mean) packages of coal, some basic groceries at the onset of elections. Let headscarved sweet chicks make rounds of the houses in the slums to beg for votes in the name of Allah.
And the sucess is guaranteed...
Once the islamic onsalught is set in motion, there is no turning back however.
Saudi Arabia is crawling with foreign firms, the largest contractors are either American or European, the malls are full of Western products and supplies. But this does not stop Saudis treating non-muslims as dhimmis and rules of Sharia is applied mercilessly..Saudis export terrorism as well. BTW, what was Osama’s citizenship?
So back to Turkey...
There are near 3 million turks in Germany who will be certainly and willfully afffected by the islamisation wave. So will several thousands in France, Holland and Belgium..
And it is not by denying Turkey the EU membership that the Eurabians can escape their fate..
On the other hand, all this don’t need to happen..
All it takes a bit of determination: to sacrifice the economic stakes for one less islamist cesspool..
Simply, a sudden reversal in the inflow of hot money, a withdrawal of funds from the banks..
The exchange rate would be blasted, the interest rates would soar...a financial panic..a call for the renewal of the elections..
The rest would be assured.. No government can survive a financial distress..
As I said, it only takes a bit determination and sacrifice...
The choice is yours fellow Eurabians and United Arabians...
Kemalist, you don't speak for all secular Turks. You don't evem speak for Kemalists. You don't speak =for Ataturak who saw Islam superior to Christianity. You are a minority even among secular Turks.
Proof that Kemalist is a minority even among secular Turks. The two other secular parties who wonn seats are far more anti-American and anti-European than AK. They are opposed to joining EU, unlike AK. A couple months ago many Americans (especially neo-cons) were cheering how a million Turks marched against AK govt and in support of secularism, but they missed the part that these rallies also had anti-American tone (America is blamed by many Turks for the rise of PKK again due to Iraq war).
Proof that Kemalist is a minority even among secular Turks. The two other secular parties who wonn seats are far more anti-American and anti-European than AK. They are opposed to joining EU, unlike AK. A couple months ago many Americans (especially neo-cons) were cheering how a million Turks marched against AK govt and in support of secularism, but they missed the part that these rallies also had anti-American tone (America is blamed by many Turks for the rise of PKK again due to Iraq war).
Amir you are honest about Turkey. Ataturk did consider Islam superior, and his reforms were such where he and his generals could hold power instead of Imam's.
He was responsible for despicable genocides against Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians to name a few. But somehow in the west we applaud Ataturk.
Turkey is an aggressive nation born from the Seljuk Turk invasions which ultimately brought on the crusades. Muslims attacked Constantinople for more than 800 years until she fell in 1453, this is what your Islam brings us, non stop jihad.
We somehow forget the killings in Smyrna and the atrocities in Constantinople in the 1950's and the continued aggression against Cyprus, continuous territorial claims against Greece, and the continued aggression against Kurdish neighbors.
All I know about Turkey is that whether fools consider her secular or Islamic, she is the embodiment of something out of a sci-fi thriller closer to the Borg. We will assimilate you, we will never stop, just look at all the wonderful cities the Turks have built in the 500 years of dominating Ionia and what is called Turkey today. Oops that's right Turks have never built a city have they, they only know conquest and aggression.