Fitzgerald: Islam respects women?

Islam respects women. Islam prevents women from being made into mere sex objects. Islam provides for the "portable seclusion" of the burqah. In Islam there is no decadence, no exploitation, as there is in the cruel and intolerable West. If anything at all is ever to be found inhumane in the treatment or status of women in Muslim societies, even if those societies are suffused with Islam and its attitudes, that has nothing to do with Islam. See Shirin Ebadi. See Fatima Mernissi. See Leila Ahmad. See Leila Abu-Lughod. No, whatever bad things happen to women within Muslim societies has nothing to do with Islam but only with "cultural practices" that -- let us all repeat again -- have n-o-t-h-i-n-g to do with Islam.

Got that?

Muslim "feminists" -- the sometimes sensible-sounding ones (Fatima Mernissi, less often Leila Ahmad) and the almost-never-sensible-ones (Abu-Lughod)-- have changed a good deal over the years. Now they are quick to sense that Islam is being implicated in the mistreatment by Muslim men, in Muslim countries, of Muslim women. This is something they don't like, and there is a quick circling of the wagons to make sure that in no case is Islam itself to be blamed. The fact that a manual of surgery on the subject of partial or full clitoridectomies is not appended to the Qur'an should fool no one. The text of Qur'an, the practices of the Sunnah (derived largely from Hadith and Sira) inculcate a view of women and of their distinct differences from, and inferiority to men, which naturally gives men the right to interfere and to cut-and-paste, with the emphasis here on cutting, in order to create a More Perfect Woman, less menacing in her dangerous sexuality.

That is also why she, that creature, must be covered up -- for men are poor, weak, forked things, and need to be protected from those wiles and endless guiles and come-hitherings of women. They therefore must be covered up for the same reason that they must be cut, here and there, to make sure that their centers of pleasure are removed. Otherwise there is no telling what they might do to entice men, or to drag the honor of their families into the dust.

Does the general message of Islam, do the attitudes toward women that naturally flow from familiarity with, and deep belief in, the texts of Islam, do anything to encourage the practice of what is clumsily called Female Genital Mutilation? Or is there no relation between the two, as Fatima Mernissi et al. would smilingly, plausibly, sweetly (with the hysteria just underneath, ready to explode) have you believe?

What do you believe?

Contrary to what Fatima Mernissi, Leila Ahmed, Leila Abu-Lughod, Diana Eck, and Shirin Ebadi, say about Female Genital Mutilation and the mistreatment of women in general, it would be far truer to say that those Muslim peoples and polities most willing to overlook the tenets and attitudes of Islam are those where women have the best chance at something like a semi-decent life. It is precisely to the extent that a country observes the Shari'a, or tries to, that determines the level of hideousness of the treatment of local Muslim women.

Forget, everyone, what Mernissi and Ebadi and Ahmed and assorted running dogs of Islam -- Karen Armstrong comes to mind -- say about Islam and "feminism" or "Feminism and Islam." Read Hirsi Ali. Read Azam Kamguian and those who blog at the Homa Darabi website (start with the scathing reviews of Shirin Ebadi). Forget the purveyors of nonsense (Purveyors of Nonsense To His Majesty King Abdullah, Hassan, Hussein, Muhammad, whatever you want, since round about 1985, when the whole ridiculous "Islam and Feminism" thing got started).

It would help if every young female marching off to "help the people" in Iraq or Afghanistan were to first, seriously, sit down and read carefully both the articles by such people as Azam Kamguian on Islam and women, and then as well to read the study of Islam and its incompatibility with human rights written by Reza Afshari. And see, in particular, Reza Afshari's unanswerable dissection of the smiling dishonesty of that phony "feminist" Fatima Mernissi, who started out as a self-proclaimed defender of women's rights, and rather quickly, seeing what this might do to the image of Islam, became a sudden Defender of the Faith, with a highly imaginative version of that Faith and its supposed history of "reform."

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Apparently, "Respect" means "lock up and cover up" in Islam.

Well I'm convinced. I think I'll become a Muslim.

How about cultural practices that only muslims observe? FGM, denial of educational rights, honor killings, forced marriages, quranically authorized polygamy, beatings, and uncontested divorce, sex with infants, not to mention clothing control?

I'd hate to see what women's lives would be like without respect.

I recently ran across a document/publication called The Perfumed Garden purporting to be written by Sheikh Nefzaoui. Is this a real book? All I can say is, it's surely "Islamo-porn" (but no pictures). From the point of view of the author, any female past puberty who gets a glimpse of, shall we say, a male at "full salute", cannot help herself, and by her very nature must invite the "arabian stallion" for a little dalliance. Do Muslims really believe this trash? A woman is just a set of genitals looking for an opposing/complementary set? This might indeed explain the rabid cloistering-away of women in Islam, at least from the men's point of view. Do the women believe this stuff as well? Ick.

A Nonny Mouse -

I read that thing too, and I think ol' Sheikh Naf was serious.

Makes your head 'splode, doesn't it?

Let's compare what 2 religions believe about Heaven:

Catholic-A beautific vision, God in His glory, rejoicing with the host of angels

Islam-sexual gratification X 72

These people never develop past any of the Freudian stages.

Catholicism hasn't always been beautiful. But the overall point is true--even at its worst it has been far more humane than Islam.

As an woman's right advocate who has been keeping up with women's rights globally for years,

and as at one brief time in my naive days, having Had a relationship with a Muslim man and saw FIRSTHAND, MYSELF, the OPPRESSION OF GIRLS AND WOMEN IN ISLAM,

I am speechless, at how to even answer such a LUDICROUS CLAIM....that "Islam isn't oppressive to women, just the culture",

what Bubble is this person from?

One of the reasons I am so adament and outspoken against Islam and its treatment of women is because I've seen it Personally--not just heard about it. And let me assure you, there is

NOTHING ABOUT RESPECT OF WOMEN IN ISLAM, ABSOLUTELY NILL, NADA, NOTHING.

Women are merely 'cumdumps' in Islam...and 'baby machines',

nothing more. They aren't even considered human beings, their bodies are deemed as dirty, nasty, they are considered to be inferior, less than,

and evil. thats right, women are deemed as 'evil' and as 'temptrouses' and thats why in Islam they are persecuted as they are--the whole LIE that its for their protection is just that, a big fat

LIE.

If, if Islam was concerned over women's protection, there would not be thousands of completely covered women in sheets withering away in prisons in Pakastan for being brutally raped.

If, if Islam was concerned over women's protection, there would not be the high in numbers of young girls not even 14 committing Suicide by Torching themselves to death, in horrible excruitiating ways to escape daily rapes, beatings, slavery.

If, if Islam was concerned over women's protection, there would not be the millions of women of Muslim orientation now, being trafficked into sex slavery, forced into prostitution [Turkey, Iran, Iraq, Bangladesh, stated recorded FACTS AND DOCUMENTED PROOF]....

ISLAM IS A LIE--AND THEY ARE THE MOST MISOGYNIST AND PEDAPHILIC BELIEF SYSTEM OUT THERE--

THEY BEAT THE HEDONISTS BY MILES IN THEIR TREACHERY AND DISGUSTING BRUTALITY TOWARDS WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

They think because they call it other terms such as marriage, or ritual that is means less of a crime--

it doesn't. Its the equivalent of throwing a gold ring in a pile of cow manure

no matter how much that ring may shine, pick it up and it still will stink like cow manure. For anyone to claim Islam respects women, then they should be forced to say that to the face of the young girls in Nigeria, who are forced to marry old men, girls not even twelve, and when they run away, how some of them have had their legs literally cut off at the knee.

Only a Woman hater would even claim such a thing--or a woman who has internalized so much woman hate for herself [why they will police themselves as they've been brainwashed since birth] would claim such a thing,

but anyone with any Common sense, knows, Islam is anything But respectful to women.

A religious scholar told me that head covering in Islam is the invention of clever females. The beast Muhammad was snatching up and defiling their little girls so much that they had to do something. When he saw that it was becoming the common practice, he included it in his sick book as a way to deter the animalistic rapist in man (talking about himself, I’m sure.)

In a word...no.

Didn't read the entire article/statement,

in regards to the Islamist feminists, Oh, oh That issue,

well see thats just it, the whole notion that there could be 'feminism' within Islam to address the barbarism to women...

well what do you know, it doesn't work because fact is,

Islam is contrary to Any type of feminism or any type of Women's Human Rights--simply because in Islam

women aren't human beings. I've read some of the books by the authors you mention and yes, a lot of it is total

bullshit.

I've also read some of the same nonsense by Western women feminists and yes, dare I say it, by some of the Religious so called feminists, who on one hand say women have rights and on the other say, women must be subjugated,

you either are free or slave, can't be both.

The fact is, the attempts to ending domestic violence, FGMs and Genetal cutting, honor killings, etc. by so called Islamist feminists are nothing but a total waste of time--and sadly, this new project by Human Rights Watch to attempt to 'reform Sharia' for women

is just laughable beyond belief.

Its insanity, I don't know how else to say it but just sheer insanity, I've seen more common sense from drunks on the hill than from a lot of so called 'professed feminists and Especially Islamist feminists', what the hell is an Islamist feminist anyway,

oh, a woman who says, I'll lube the infant daughter before hubby rapes her,

I mean give me a damn break, seriously. There is no such thing as an Islamist feminist, and what I have found, is that its one of the 'deceptive measures' the Islamists are using to 'fool Western feminists' into accepting Islam and tragically,

its working.

This is why I fell out of favor with the majority of Western feminists was over this Very issue--this whole thing about gender segregation as some means of 'liberation' is KaKa. The answer is really simple people,

if these so called Islamist 'feminists' are so sure Islam is not oppressive, then let them stay in those countries and deport all supporters of such to those countries and let them enjoy their 'respect'.

If its so alright to allow FGMS, then add lobotomies to that too, because obviously in Islam, women have no need for brains...and the real TRAVESTY IN THAT,

THERE ARE WOMEN SO INTERNALIZED WITH MISOGYNY THAT THEY WOULD PROBABLY WILLINGLY SUBMIT TO A LOBOTOMY TO SHOW THEIR REVERENCE TO ISLAM AND TO THE ISLAMIST MEN...

and they are So screwed up mentally they would then say, that having lobotomies is some form of women's liberation, hey if they can't think, they can't feel for their plight or some KaKa like that.

I can see it now,

for any woman to claim feminism then turn and be apologetic to Islam, is the Equivalent of years ago, for a black slave, to be apologetic to the white masta...

could you Imagine that? Of course not--its simply just boggles the mind of how Any could be that damn Stupid. I say expose these Islamist LIARS

for what they are--because they Damn sure are not feminists, by no means. I don't care How many books they write--they are simply paraders and deceivers masking as feminists trying to mask over the Evils of Islam--and trying to Dupe stupid women who just have not a clue or sense enough to know the difference between

freedom and enslavement.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,… every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

After convincing his male followers that allah wants to reward them for getting killed while "spreading" islam, Mohammed realized his teaching about what heaven was like had inflamed all the passions of these men and turned them into sex maniacs. In order to control them, (he had to do a bit of damage control) he decided that the women had to be ordered by god to cover themselves, because the sex-crazed Muslim men would be unable to keep themselves from jumping on them and raping them on the spot.

Nice, huh?

Good to bring up islam's attitude toward and treatment of women (get ready for a tu quoque of "medieval Christianity regarded women as vessels of evil and conduits of the devil"). I thik it's important to note how one follows the other -- when hardcore jihadis move into town (Somalia?), first thing they do is put bags on women and generally keep them out of sight and subjugated. Whether this makes local Muslim male youth little crazy right away, or it takes a generation to turn (what, 15 years in those parts?), and add brainwash of course but the hormones are so important, and mom herself a child victim of rape and assault, so you have an army of youth who are willing to kill and to die, bingo.
Abusing women and children is a sure way to produce generations of murderous and suicidal fanatics. Islam's gimmicks dont change but they are dam good.

Now that was well said, Natasha.

islam respects women and if you believe that I'll sell you the CN Tower and throw in the Brooklyn Bridge only thing that Islamic men respect is the number of male babies that the women can produce otherwise they are terrified of any other man spreading their seed in the women that their cult has coned into believing they are the lesser species and the men think the women suffer from the same lack of morals as the normal middle eastern male Muslim that will screw anything that moves

Here are a few reasons I'll never submit to Islam's treatment of my sisters:

this song

or

this song

or

this song

or

this song

Hey guys, our sisters would never have been able to do stuff like these songs under Islam, would they? And that's just the tiniest fraction of the reason why we'll never submit to Islam's treatment of our sisters.

Muslims are so good at denying what is self-evident, obvious, and undeniable. They're so plausible, with their calm, polite, sincere exegesis of islamic doctrine for idiot infidels, but resentful when the infidels cannot harmonize their anodyne lies with the words and actions of other muslims who offer much different explanations for the meaning of islam, not to mention the doctrine of islam itself, which we are quite capable of reading and understanding.

We are told that only muslims can understand and explain islam, and that we are not qualified to interpret their canonical texts. We ask about islamic terrorism---oh no, terrorism is not inspired by islamic teachings, a few fanatics have hijacked islam! Earth to muslims: infidels can read, write, hear, speak, see, and think and we do it much better than muslims because we are not brainwashed from birth.

Misogyny is no different. We can SEE how women are treated, just as we can SEE and HEAR the islamic justifications for terrorism. We SEE muslims commit terrorism every day. We SEE muslim females treated worse than ANIMALS every day.
We have READ islamic canonical texts and we COMPRREHEND what they say about infidels, non-muslims, women, and islam's goal of world domination. We have studied islamic history and we KNOW its bloody, violent, BARBARIC chronicle. We understand that islam is our enemy, and we intend to defend ourselves and our civilization from islamic jihad. If that amounts to islamophobia, we're GUILTY.

Muslim men respect women so much, they want to have four of them around to show it to.

The pinnacle of selflessness.

The apogee of giving.

Start the revolution with the islamic women - get them to realize how they've been duped - and I bet that Islam will be a thing of the past in 10 years.

Traeh,

Thanks for the song links. I particularly liked #2 with K.T. Tunstall who I'd never heard of before.

I think music is relevant to this thread too because it's all about individual freedom and personal expression.
Maybe that's why it's so threatening to Islam?
Especially when it comes from women.

Too bad so many muslim women don't know that there is more to life than obeying muslim men and being a slave to allah.

Imagine if they could hear a woman expressing herself with such passion and freedom as heard in this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVjaZtenaps

They wouldn't need to see it (yes she's beautiful but that's not the point). They wouldn't need to understand English (also entirely beside the point). They wouldn't need to know a thing about music. All they would need is to hear it. I wonder what effect it would have?

The reaction of many Muslim women when the West gets wind of the dirty little secrets (It's cultural! It's cultural!) is certainly defensive - an act of denial in fact - and a sure sign that the gloss is coming off. When women lose respect for Islam, it is finished.

ccomplish...

....the old leader MO routinely killed women for writing songs, detracting his "warriors" from following his orders, for disagreeing with his every demand, and for daring to love someone else....Old Mo came up with new rules, women must be cover, must travel with male family members, must not associate with non Muslims, must not be educated, must have sex whenever the male demands it, must bear as many children as the male wants, must be the mans slave....the penalty for disobeying the male can be and is usually death...the rules for women slaves (slaves are allowed in Islam)are that women slaves are property of the slave owner and he can do as he pleases with them....

...in fact, women attacked old Mo physically and with words...

I have always thought that a way to bring the demise of the Sharia mindset is to empower women to full political and social equality in Muslim societies. This in my view could only be done by brute force as in Turkey where the military has this role.

Natasha, your comments and passion are inspiring. I can't grasp how a man would ever even think of some of the abuses on women and children we all have read about. It is unbelievable but, unfortunately true. It is funny how the left in this country would have you believe it is mainly white christian males capable of doing these things. All I know is, if I ever suggested to my wife to wear a burkha, or anything that would even hint to her being less equal than I, ooof....life would be tough.

Traeh, thanx for the links for the tunes. Being a musician I know my destiny if there ever is a worldwide caliphate. I'm sure we all remember what happened to the music stores in Paki. The funny thing is though, I know my gift is a gift from God.

Islam for most of its existence was carried forward by the sword. Two nomadic tribal peoples, the Arabs and the Turks were responsible for most of this expansion. A question is how these primitive and thinly populated nomadic tribes expanded so explosively into large and densely populated civilized regions. The reasons for their success are various; but one important answer to the question lies in an ingenious social invention arising among the early Muslims. This was a breeding system that motivated successful warriors with a great incentive to spread their faith and their culture. Islam has the advantage of being highly patriarchal and polygamous with great sexual benefits for those warriors able to conquer in its name; Islam was and remains a great male racket. Furthermore, these advantages are not the temporary kind that have always been associated with warfare, but continue to exist within the peacetime new order. Wherever the warriors of Islam went they were able to commandeer large numbers of native women as wives and concubines. And unlike their counterparts in the West, they were able to do so with full religious and legal sanction. Their warrior sons, the mixed offspring of these matings, in turn zealously spread their new religion and culture as they conquer still more territory and the process is repeated through several generations. Of course, such a permanent system also meant deterioration in the status of women; the latter lost even the limited rights they had managed to acquire under the preceding Greek and Roman civilization.

Warriors were not the only Muslim males sexually rewarded for advancing Islam. Islam was also spread by trade and mercantile activity. The wealth accumulated by a successful merchant could be considerable. Thus, those responsible for promoting Islam beyond the borders of the Dar-al-Islam could also obtain the means of purchasing concubines and of affording multiple wives. Muslim officials and administrators who successfully defended and consolidated Islamic gains would also obtain the ability to acquire such advantages.

A result of this was the grinding down and degradation of even free Muslim women. For they were required to accept all of the concomitants of that institution: polygamy, ease of divorce and concubinage. During Islam’s frequent wars they were obliged to resignedly accept their husbands returning from the campaign with captive concubines for his own use as often as for sale. This trait became deeply embedded within Islamic civilization as it spread from the warriors to the general male population. The result is the peculiar degradation of women as well as many of the other sexual oddities, i.e. the sexual abuse of young boys by older men, which have become almost institutionalized. Islam seems peculiarly resistant to altering its established sexual attitudes. The reason may lie in the fact that the very existence of Islamic culture over wide regions is due to these attitudes.

I know I've said it on other threads, but still: what I truly don't get--and will never get--is Western women who either convert to Islam or marry Muslim men or both. In doing so, they are essentially spitting on the West and saying that Western men aren't good enough for them. There's a name for such women: whores. I hold them in as much contempt as I do the French women who were lovers of Nazi German Men during the German occupation of France in the 1940s. After the war, those women were paraded through Paris with shaved heads and people spit on them. The same should be done to any Western woman who turns her back on the West.

In Cairo I saw a lot of it--western women with Muslim men. It made me want to vomit.

"Western women who either convert to Islam or marry Muslim men"


...just wait for the new reality show..."Who wants to marry a Muslim....

I'm on vacation right now and have a little more time than usual for reading. On Monday I bought several books, including Robert's new one, Walid Shoebat's Why I left Jihad and another one that caught my eye as I perused the bookshelves called Burned Alive - A Survivor of an "Honor Killing" Speaks Out. That last one is the one I started Monday night and finished when I woke up in the wee hours this morning before I went back to bed and cried myself to sleep. This book explains unlike any other, the hopelessness of being a Muslim woman in a world that forgives nothing of women. The men in this world are bullies, thugs, and cowards. They are allowed to be angry and they use their anger to make everyone around them miserable. It is the women who have the fortitude and perseverance; the men never have to develop themselves spiritually or emotionally beyond terrorizing those around them and demanding that their egos be boosted by those they enslave.

Souad, the girl in the story, talks about daily beatings by her father, for sport. The girls in the family were worthless and they were told so on a regular basis. Her mother had 14 children but only seven lived at home and two were from the father's second wife who came to live with him when he dumped her because she gave hiom two girls instead of sons. Wondering what had happend to the other ones, Souad found out the day her mother gave birth to another girl and promptly smothered her to death.

Souad never went past the end of her village, never went tos school, spent her days doing hard labor, had no friends and when she was asked for in marriage, an idea that she thought was romantic but also symbolized her freedom from the harshness of her family life, her father refused because her elder sister was not married and Souad had to wait her turn. She waited for years. Finally she decided to signal the boy across the street who wore a suit and drove a fancy car. They met secretly and after a few encounters that left her feeling guilty, but which she felt were necessary to not lose him so he would marry her, she became pregnant and while telling her he would marry her, he disappeared and left her to her fate, which was being doused with gasoline and set fire to by her brother-in-law who agreed to do the deed at a family meeting. When she ran out of the garden gate on fire, the women of the village helped her and got her to a hospital. She did not die, but her parents came in to finish the job. The mother told her that she needed to drink a special concoction that she'd brought with her because she needed to die and her brother would be in trouble if she didn't. A doctor caught her and shooed her out with orders that the parents weren't allowed in again. But even the nurses were not willing to help her because she was charmuta (whore.) They basically left her there to die with no food or water, and no care for her oozing wounds. Thanks to an alert foreign aid worker and a Muslim doctor with a heart, she survived and her story of getting out of the West Bank and going to Europe and what happened to her after that is truly amazing.

As I was reading this book yesterday I thought to myself, but people will say this is cultural or tribal and won't see that it has anything to do with Islam. Then I read the passage that validated my conclusions. Souad said that her parents were very religious and that her mother went to the mosque quite often. HER PARENTS WERE VERY RELIGIOUS. HER MOTHER WENT TO THE MOSQUE OFTEN.

The thing that really got to me about this story was the comparisons and contrasts of the European people who helped her, took her in and encouraged her to overcome her trauma and shame and make a new life for herself and the abject disregard for her from her own family. I forgot to mention that when she was only a teenager her brother, who was younger than her, strangled her younger sister with a phone cord. She never had any explanation for why her sister was murdered. So in her family it was really true that women were worthless, that men could do no wrong and that any woman who shamed the family could be gotten rid of. Her family thought so, the neighbors in the village did too and also the police.

Read this book and understand what we are fighting here for. This cannot be allowed to surface, be nurtured and then thrive in our countries. The entrenchment of the mentality has got to be wiped out before anymore precious girls are sacrificed on the altar of Islam.

Thank you, Isabella, for sharing that story.
I always admire your posts - they are so passionate and eloquent.

I agree about Isabella's and other posts on this thread. Lots of nutritious food for thought and action.

Western women who either convert to Islam or marry Muslim men.

That's harsh, real real harsh. Especially the part where there is no non-Islam context. When that's the case every freedom-loving body is so sunk.

alexon, thanks for that nice link.

Tunstall sometimes does a hell of a nice rendition of a Jackson 5 song, too, the one called "I Want You Back."

A really free person, man or woman, is a beautiful thing. And one of the places you can see that is when someone shows a spark of genius in free, individual expression, as one occasionally sees in a good singer.

americanmadestrat, glad you liked the tunes.

Traeh, I'll check out some of K.T.'s other songs when I have a chance.

For the song I linked to I suspect that muslim supremacists, like that vile imam in Australia, would see only "uncovered meat" with their black hearts hardened against all else.

I wonder though if muslim women would be as impervious?

Regarding western women falling for Muslim men,

I want to especially respond to the one post about Western men not being good enough, etc.

I dated a Muslim man years ago so I know a little about this and it is Very relevant in so much that is discussed here. Its not that Western men aren't 'good enough',

not that at all. There are various reasons, and I'll list a few of them--now not all applied to my situ but I've known women who they do apply, so thats why I'm including them,

but before I do, let me state for the record and this is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT because it also reveals how easily so many are 'duped and tricked' into believing that its not Islam that is the problem, just fundamentalists--

and That is what we are seeing today. But for the record, Western women , as a majority, are not dating Muslim men who portray themselves to be radical Islamists or even fundamentalists Islamists, the thing is, the majority of Muslim men in the west that lure and I say lure because thats Exactly what they do, western women into relationships do so by being extremely moderate, even liberal.

Its not until women either leave the country or really open their eyes before they realize that what moderation is, is really just a deception. And by that time, women will often have the tendency to 'rationalize and explain away' and its the same thing with Any abusive relationship--a lot of similarities.

But one of the the things that I know personally that Muslim men prey upon is the lack of respect that is often shown towards women in western society...not to slam men here but going to tell it to your straight. There is a 'myth' and I will say 'myth' that in Islam, women are reverenced for being women...and are showered with attention, care, and protection.

Now one has to see 'beyond that' but in our modern society, especially for women who are struggling with poverty [esp if single parents and thats the target women for many Muslim men], and that 'feminism' has failed [and I'll get into this here in a bit] the promise that is told them, that they would not be abandoned and that though the culture is different [this is what they are told], at least in Islamist culture the men don't abandon the children and women, and so forth,

and if women don't know what Islam is [and most don't] they will easily fall for that. Its the same types of lies we see in every area of life, that the problem is not Islam but just a few 'extremists'...

and truth is, not all Muslims are hell bent on violence, etc...BUT, now here's the BUT--and I know this by experience...they may not be that way in Western society--but get them with other Muslims,

ESPECIALLY THE MEN

and you will see an entirely different nature of character. I was not really that serious in the relationship because for one, I was so feminist and two, I simply refused to convert--I was a single parent and I had made it very clear, I would never convert nor would I ever leave the country...needless to say, we didn't last long, and it didn't Take me long to figure things out,

one I had some knowledge prior so that helped, but two, I had actually READ THE SHARIA BOOK, that his mother one evening gave me to read. All it took was reading that, and another book, written by Komenie, and I was running for the door literally--

but what Truly convinced me of the TRUTH OF ISLAM, ESP WHERE WOMEN ARE CONCERNED,

was his Sisters. Now his family all came across as liberal, tolerant Americanized Muslims who professed they did not have a problem with Christians or Jews [I would find that to be a lie later] but anyway, one evening I was talking to his sister, and usually she was closely watched but the brothers were in the kitchen and she started telling me in a whisper, how in Afghanistan the women were beaten,

that at six years old, she saw her Aunt's face bashed in to permanent crushing, her husband beat it in with a brick. She then began to tell me how their younger sister, at the of nine, was forced into a sale-marriage by an Uncle [his mother's brother] and they never saw her again. That is why his mother never smiled and cried all the time, the last they heard this poor girl was being beaten and starved and raped repeatedly by this old man.

I in my naive 'neoliberal' ways, in trying to not be judgmental said,

"We have that domestic violence here too"--

she grabbed my arm and looked me square in the eye, in a whisper so none could hear her, and said to me,


"Yes, but the Difference is, your System doesn't Sanction it, it doesn't put a stamp of Approval on it, you have Laws against it, even if it happens, its wrong, its socially wrong, its legally wrong, where We come from, there is no law, no anything, to stop it, and it happens all the time and there is NO HOPE FOR GIRLS, OR WOMEN"

then one of the brothers walked in the room...when she told me this she had tears in her eyes, and Fear, Fear that I understand now and that Western women, unless they've seen it, don't understand, unless they are in a cult or a violent situation or victim of rape, but esp those women who live with this violence ON A DAILY BASIS, only Those women could even begin to understand what that horror is.

His sister, who shared this with me, was 22 years old...forced to be single, as her husband was still in Afghanistan and abandoned her [so much for the we don't abandon lie] and until he Divorces her, she can never remarry, nothing...

she is raising a child on her own. I watched her that evening with her young daughter and I understood, I understood what HELL was and that for these women and girls there IS NO WAY OUT....NOT EVEN IN AMERICA because no matter what the laws are, their male families and some of the female members police every thing they do, now the MALES,

are free to go to Mosque on Friday and to the bars on Saturday and pick up American women and trust me, they Do. I saw it--they are the biggest whores,

male whores that is.

I say whores because these so called pious men will sit there and call Western women, who are gaga over them, that whole 'erotic foreign thing', behind their backs they call American women [and these are the so called liberals who befriend them and who scream Down with Isreal and up with Palestine types o.k.] but I've heard the Muslim men sit there and laugh and call them stupid hoes, sluts, you name it...

then, one night, this so called liberal man I was dating, we were watching some news show and there was a story about Egypt and human rights, and interviews with college students--the women weren't veiled,

and he starts screaming at the t.v. and calling them whores and they should be killed, etc., and I asked him, "What the hell do you think of me then" and he says, "well you are different, you aren't Muslim, blah blah blah",

I dumped him after that. Or, rather we dumped each other because he knew, I was seeing through it. He never was mean to me or my children, was extremely kind [and honestly, I've dated some really abusive American men who are sexist assholes so that doesn't help, when you have American men who think women are just here to screw--and women feeding into that, or men who are of the 1940s Chauvinist mindset--its not hard to think a man who treats you like a human, can't be all that bad, etc]

I was truly fortunate to at least have enough knowledge AND education to see through it,

but what about the young woman who doesn't and who maybe has come from some very abusive relationships or rape or whatever by an American man and some Muslim man treats her like a queen or princess, unlike the American man [generally, and today's generation I think is really bad about this] who expects women to put out, etc., and many women do [and I'm not a puritan not what I'm saying but there is no courting or respect anymore, its just hey baby, etc etc]

that and the lookism [Huge problem in this country], the super woman syndrome [thank you feminism for that], the sexualization of women [porn industry-internet-cyber porn], the entire economic market today is based on sex, sex, sex...I mean hell, you can't even see an icecream and waffle cone commercial without the sexual innuendos'', its gotten That out of hand,

and the thing is, feminism in some ways has been good, but in so Many ways, and I say this now as a feminist--not as a right winger or a neo-con but honestly as a feminist, there has been not just a backlash but in my opinion, a severe flaw in feminism on several issues,

one economy, for working class women the promise of 'having it all' has proven to be b.s., so working women, esp single parents get the betrayal from the feminists and the persecution or social contempt from the other side, etc [brief example, you're talking an entire discussion on this situ],

sexual freedom has benefitted men moreso than women [and some feminists have taken this issue on but today you have the 'we are empowered sexually and yada yada and that has so many holes in That theory--because women today are more exploited sexually than they were in the 40s and 50s], and one thing the Radical feminists say [Dworkin, etc] that I totally concur with, and esp with the far left/left, is that the flaw there is that not once, ever, has any ideology ever stood up to say, that men do NOT have the right to entitlement to women's bodies--why Marxist feminism is a brutal failure for women, socialist feminism is even worse where Thats concerned,,, in fact, I've seen worse sexism and chauvinism in far left than all the years of church put together that I saw, and That was in the South--

domestic violence hasn't ended and in fact, I would even go as far to say its increased [in some nations, particularly socialist nations, such as Belarus, domestic violence is at highest in world--THAT IS FACT],

the whole issue of glass ceiling, feminization of poverty [including in US], increase in sex industry as employment and more manual jobs demanding 'sex type of work' such as, for example, some asshole in our state has this lawnmower business where women are expected to mow lawns in bikinis...now sure, we can say, don't Take that job, but when a woman has three kids to support, maybe not getting child support, and not a lot of work around to support that many people Without getting on welfare and God forbid if she Does get on welfare [and its never the men who get slammed--its always the women, its got to be Her fault that she couldn't keep a man, etc etc etc, that type of shit thinking out there], so she's going to take the job most likely because she has to live, etc.,

and add to that the demonization of poverty and impoverished women,

then its not surprising to see then, some Muslim man duping a woman like this, and her falling for it.

If you want to combat the influx of Western women getting duped by Muslim men you need education, for one [which this website is doing just that],

but two, you need to empower women and by that I don't mean, like what is deemed as empowerment today or protectionalism, that male paternalism which actually feeds into that codependence--and also, you'd be surprised at how many women who do get duped into relationships with Muslim men are actually from religious backgrounds in Christianity and who have seen the hypocrisy in a lot of the professing Christian men, etc...[the double standards, etc].

But you need economic empowerment too and by that I'm not referring to heaps of alimoney or heaps of child support that in statistics, puts poor men into more poverty, doesn't do a lot to assist low income women {FACT} and really is a middle class benefit that benefits usually--the women [not always but usually} who are remarried and not lacking in a lot of income, in COMPARISON to lets say, a woman making minimum wage with no child support--its those women that often fall into the poverty trap. In other words, our Legal system needs to change in that regard--child support for children, not as a form of 'alimony' which often times, thats what it is,

I mention this because its not empowerment but just an extension of patriarchial 'economic dependence'...and it perpetuates the .73 cents to a dollar income inequality [Thats what Needs to change], and changes in attitude about parenting, unless there is abuse/or control abuse, start Enforcing visitation and equal parenting time--and empowerment for both parents so the children are better off--that would do a lot to combat the poverty that goes with perpetuating Western patriarchy, etc...

changes in education expense for higher ed so that women and men can up incomes--rather than how it is today,

one thing that really angers me is that I'm in debt for life for student loans, and low income as a result of--but I see foreigners, Muslims included, getting all sorts of scholarships because of minority status, and here we have thousands of low income families, mostly women with children, who are homeless and impoverished in this country--That needs to stop. Take care of our own first--you know, then assist the others, because its often the women and children who are negatively impacted.

And I know this is the case in Europe too and when you have that type of demographic--then yes, its very easy for the multi-culturalist LIE to deceive, and lure desperate people, into the snare. Now I do believe in individual responsibility, and I do believe in the work ethic, and in fact, I think thats another problem, wealth is now based on a lot of prestige whereas the harder one works, esp manual labor, the cheaper the pay and the less value,

where I come from, a hard day's work, in the fields, on the farm, etc., was something to be proud of...today we see women waiting tables that are treated like scum of society--I"m sorry but its work that should be valued and we need to start placing value on hard work, including manual labor rather than exploiting it, outsourcing it to the cheapest labor just for greed--

put the Ethics and self-respect Back into this society, Back into people, rural values rather than just the whole 'what you own is what you are worth Shallow values that is the norm today',

in Other words, the Reason Islam has an easy way in manipulating and deceiving is that there is not just a vacuum but holes, everywhere, that they are filling--thats what I think and I have read similar theories from parts of Europe [due to the high conversion rates to Islam in parts of],

put it This way, something I just thought of, something Jesus said [will use this bit of wisdom, whether one believes or not, its a parable that has alot of wisdom in it] and its about a person who builds a house on sand...the foundation, eventually it will crumble, etc, but a house built on rock will withstand the storms, etc.

Thats just it, our world, our way of life, our countries are built on sand, and the foundations are cracking and the Islamists are there offering cement--what most don't realize is that the cement is flawed and has defects. But people so desperate to save their home [be it spiritual, economical, future security-fear, etc] will take that cement in false hope--

having been duped. And there are those cases where there is such internalized misogyny that its not an issue of being duped but such low self esteem that any positive affirmation will render one incapable of seeing--

but A LOT OF THAT INTERNALIZED MISOGYNY is tied into all the above, put it This way, when we have a nation of girls at the age of nine who are being bombarded with sexualization, and the rise in sexual violence that we are seeing here [in Europe the legal prostitution--sorry but I'll say it, you can't bitch about Islam and misogyny when you allow child prostitution to go on and child porn and are just la de da about it--then be all Shocked when the Islamists are in Mosques screaming that they will take over and etc, I mean come on--thats the whole reason the Islamists were able to get in the door in the First place--

and Thats what people in My opinion, don't want to face, and its not just about going back to fundie religion either--that isn't the utopia either, if it was, there wouldn't have Been the backlash against it...Something went wrong, direly wrong, and long, long time ago. And I think its a combination of things, like urbanization, a big one, lack of caring, and I've said that before but more than that--lack of personal responsibilty not just for life choices but

for taking ownership for freedom, respect, etc. The reason Islam has the means to dupe is that there is DOUBT in the hearts of the masses--the sand under the house. Deal with that--and you will deal with the deception--

somehow I had some heart knowledge built on the rock, and though I got into the culture of Islam somewhat I wasn't deceived to the point of not being able to turn away--somewhere I had strong values that just were not going to be compromised for Anything...

Thats, Thats what we need, blaming women and saying its just that they don't think Western men are good enough, is not it.

To close this very long response [sorry bout that] I want to say, the other day my son brought home a calendar, of the police and the Memorials of Policepeople who died in 9-11. In one of the pictures,

there is a little girl, about the age of six, running barefoot with her sundress on, long hair flowing down her back, innocent and joyful, beautiful summer day,

and holding a huge American Flag.

That, that to me said it all....empower with freedom, but freedom with respect for freedom, not hedonism, not selfish individualism but individual freedom with regards to the fact that we do live in a society.

And respect for life, respect for LIVING. Respect for Human Rights--and willingness to not compromise those rights or tolerate any system or belief that does.

To reclaim what it is, to be American [yes this country and history has not been without fault--but the Principles--that all Men & Women [which should be added] are equal before God,

Liberty, Justice for All.

for that little girl, running through the grass, holding the American flag....may we get that treasure back. And it will take All of us.

One wonders, after reading Natasha's post, what exactly happened to Alia Ansari -- an Afghan woman shot on an American street by a mysterious assailant, never identified. She was shot in the head while walking, hand in hand, with a child to pick up another child from school.

Ms. Ansari lived in a heavily Afghanized community in California. One of her relatives had been killed some time before, apparently over a woman, but who knows. The public outcry after her murder was focused on whether she was killed because she wore the choking headwrap demanded of Muslim women -- a hate crime, as it were. The assailant was only described as "dark-skinned."

Her husband, a naturalized American, fled back to Afghanistan almost immediately with the blessing of the police. The Afghan "elders" of the community immediately formed a stonewall and told non-Muslims to mind their own business -- a reaction quite disappointing to sensitive locals who were flogging a "National Wear The Hijab" day. It's hard to show solidarity with people who simply don't want it, I suppose.

A local Christian church was vandalized in the days of public furor following the murder. Since then, the facts of poor Ms. Ansari's fate no longer occupy either the public mind or, apparently, the police's.

Quite interesting, actually.

Natasha-

Thanks for the very moving post.

Here's all I can reply, since music speaks beyond mere words- (and the ones in this I only know from a translation)- but what you wrote reminded me of her tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkJO9_UoT04

a friend of mine became involved and Married
a teenager when she was 18and he was 19 he was Muslim fortunately her parents because she was not 19 kept her passport and when her husband found this out and that his firstborn son is not going to be born in Saudi Arabia where he was from through a fit and he showed his true colors and when his son was born and the boy turned out to be disabled divorce his wife and has never paid a dime a child-support unfortunately she foolishly let him in one night and he got her drunk and he raped her she would not file charges but when her daughter from his rape was 12 years old he tried to kidnap her to the Middle East where she was supposed to convert to Islam and marry his cousin luckily he was found out what he was up to and he is now serving time and now his daughter 18 is in the Canadian Armed Forces she is now beyond his reach

Natasha -

Your post should be required reading for any woman contemplating marriage to a muslim.

Actually, it should be read by all women in the west. It seems to me that young women have taken a giant step backwards, these days.

thanks everyone,

Marwan, Guarantee you the Minute I read your post, it was an honor killing,

no ands, ifs, ors, or buts...

I was in college when I met this young man and was of course radical and angry at the system, etc., single parent, struggling and I do mean struggling...in the city but anyway...

I include that because I understand the MINDSET of so many of the cultural relativists and WHY they think the way they do, and there is partly, that 'true' anti-Americanism [and I think so much of that is the post colonial want for 'revenge' against whitie, I will dare say it, it needs to be said, because it truly is about 70% of the strength of the anti-American or anti-Western civilization thinking, and its been exploited and twisted to the point where people on that side of lost reason, i.e., many leftists, feminists, etc.]

I also believe ACADEMIA has a LOT to do with the dumbing down of rational thought,

so, knowing and having Been there myself, I feel strongly about speaking up because liberalism today has truly turned into a form of fascism--and thus the fascination with fascist types of beliefs, Islam being the main one. [Interestingly, just from a political theory point of view, in a way Burke was right on some things but its like today we have the hedonist commercialism leaving voids in people/their lives crying out for order and when Islam says, we'll give you order, the Robespierre of the world today, the people fall sway to it--and the Guilletine is being prepared for the dumb fodder which even More Interestingly like the French Rev, will be the masses of poor fodder who chanted Danton, Danton and the women locked in prisons [remember the feminists in French Rev what their fate was?],
and the blood will pour on the streets,

absolutism, brings one thing and one thing only--Death. Islam in my strong opinion is nothing but a LOVE OF DEATH.

Used to be liberalism was opposed to fascist rule, now its the opposite, and Whats SO IMPORTANT HERE, is that the manner in which Women are duped,

is the Same manner in which society is duped.

Our biggest threat today in the world, is not so much the terrorists [in my opinion] as it is the infiltration and 'acceptance of' theocratic totalitarianist thinking, accomodating to it and the relativism that is taking over minds of millions--Thats the real danger and like a woman who is tricked into believing Prince Charming is there to give her a life of peace and contentment--

only to find one day she is under a yoke that is so heavy and chains that the Only way out is Death, by her hand [suicide] or his and all his brethren, honor killings.

This woman from Afghanistan, I can see it now, she was murdered alright, by either a husband or brother or father or uncle or cousin...thats what they do, Even at college, they will watch these women/young girls and report to the families all they do here, mannerisms AND ESPECIALLY IF THEY GET CAUGHT CHATTING WITH WESTERN MEN,

AND I HAVE SEEN THIS WITH MY OWN EYES AND LISTENED TO THE MEN CHASTISING THEIR SISTERS IN ISLAM ON CAMPUSES for such things as

bearing an arm.

They policed them like that and the women do it too, in those Mosques they gossip like small churches, 'oh so and so did this and you had better talk to so and so',

its like a religious Stalinist cult of personality, seriously and so even in free society the women Aren't free [even if they claim to be] because unless they have left Islam, the Islamists will watch, monitor, persecute, and yes, eventually kill them if they get too Western or what they say, 'uppity'.

But now Here's the REAL OUTRAGE HERE, the MEN now, they'll frequent those dance clubs like there is no tomorrow and pick up women and lie, I mean they are the Biggest LIARS and a lot of them will have young wives back in their countries [I found This out too] that are 12, 13, etc.

I never went to the Mosque, I refused, because I was never going to wear no sheet [and I use that term sheet on purpose, damn right, I refuse to call it chador, etc., and Never call it a scarf], but I would hear the men talk [at the pizza place or at the club where we hung out after class] and I would listen, often they wouldn't know I was listening that close but I was and I watched, observed and carefully so,

and ironically the Worst of them are the more Fundamentalist of them, and the more moderate of country, they are from such as United Emrates [in comparison to Saudi, etc] they actually were more religious in their living, not always but usually--it was the more anti-women, anti Western that were the most hypocritic, most amoral beings I've ever met--

and they are worse than a lot of just hedonists who have no qualms about anything, but I've met hedonists too who at Least have some respect for others as far as consent and let be is concerned, I can't say that for Muslims I've met.

And the thing about the whole 'respect of women in Islam who are covered, etc'] is KaKa too...I knew a woman from Palestine who wore the whole sheet set up and she was actually very nice, one of the few pro=Isreal women, she worked in the peace movement but I used to watch how the Muslim brothers would treat her and she was just invisible,

sure in front of non-Muslims the men would act all respectful and so forth but when non-Muslims weren't around, hell she might as well have just vanished, no matter How smart she was or talented or if she knew the cure for cancer--didn't matter, she was a woman and A MAN'S PROPERTY

AND THATS IT, WOMEN ARE MERE PROPERTY in Islam, nothing more. See and Thats what Western women need to really Understand,

its not just sexist men and abusive men, or bad men in a culture or bad culture, NO, its a Belief that is SANCTIONED AND ORDAINED, ORDERED AS ONE OF THE MAIN TENANTS IN THE KORAN,

that WOMEN ARE PROPERTY OF MEN. And when I realized the Full Impact of this, I saw it and how it was one of the banality of evil, its sinister and not even so subtle,

girls are Sold into marriage like you sell a car, That right there alone you would think would get feminists in an outroar here but it just eludes them I think,

they don't get the full impact of What that is, to Sell a Human Being and yes one here said something about the apologests throwing up the days of Christian Antiquity, etc when they too sold women and had concubines, etc...

well yes, in the days of Ancient all societies [other than some pagan before patriarchy took over, see Lerner] were patriarchial, women were slaves, etc...

but the Difference is, in Christianity and even Judaism [reformed] people 'progressed' and the very principles [esp after Calvin] of individual rights, even Then, as conservative the Puritans were--there was beginnings of women's rights, first one, choice in marriage and riddance of 'dowry',

whereas in Islam, its never changed, from what 1400 its still the same, and its in the tenants of the belief, and last night I was reading through a list of all religions from Hinduism to Taoism, etc., and the

MAIN DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ALL RELIGIONS AND ISLAM IS THIS:

ISLAM IS THE ONLY ONE THAT DEMANDS SOCIAL AND POLITICAL LAW, SHARIA, TO CONTROL ALL LIVES UNDER ISLAM,

sure some faiths Abide by Laws, Orthodox or Conservative BUT, BUT, THEY DON'T DEMAND AN ENTIRE SOCIETY/S BE RULED BY THEM ANYWHERE IN THEIR TEXTS....

thats the danger of Islam and why I don't call it a religion, because it truly is more of a political system, and a militarized one.

I also find it interesting when reading a 'secular' comparison now, not something written by Christians or Jews or Buddhists, just a secular comparison, that in all the religions it mentions faith or idea or being,

where as in Islam its the Caliphs [that is mentioned a lot] which is rulers of LAW or the Mullahs which also, is rulers of LAW,

and Why under Islamist countries its impossible to have human rights AND ESP WOMEN'S RIGHTS because its a LEGAL SYSTEM that one is going up against, that is also part of their belief....

and its Very similar to the ancient days of Papacy and the taxations of the feudal peasants--but WORSE. FAR FAR WORSE. Which is ironic, in that wasn't that one of the big complaints of Muhummad was the corruption of the Papacy and paying for penance back then????

Anyway off topic here but ImNoDhimmi, you also hit on something very true and its actually one of the big debates within feminism today,

and yes women HAVE taken a giant step backwards, and I don't think its fair to just blame it on the neocon backlash of feminism as many lib fems like to lay hold of...I think its a variety of factors and I think,

Marxist feminism has a LOT to do with the reason why feminism fails, the Influence of Marxism, now I say this, now, as one who is not anti-Marx, in fact there is a lot of theory in Marxism that I concur with,

just not with All of it and one is the application of Marxism, etc which to be fair, what we see as Marxist influence isn't Marx per se but Leninism and as far as feminism, Kollantai's theories, and a mix of neo-liberalism out of Europe in that epoch that Lenin was opposed to, and now its a mix of applied industry feminism [what I term it] and neo-liberal feminism that is truly Anti-Womanist,

meaning for equality the devaluing of women, the worship of male qualities, demeaning of the feminine character of things including life [where I concur with enviro feminists/pagan feminists] etc etc etc, which interestingly, isn't it ironic that in the worst areas of the world where women are oppressed, the environment is also, polluted and raped and pillaged beyond recognition?

And whats really just amazing in its sheer ignorance is the very ones, who are so gung ho on supporting tolerance for Islam, esp if doing so because they are pagan or animist or anti-colonialist, etc.,

that they really Don't grasp, how Islam, Muhummad, slaughtered thousands upon thousands of

pagans and animists.

I just can't believe the stupidity of many Native American Indians I meet on campus who are just 'well whitie did this [Chicano movement too] and whitie did that and Western Civ and Christianity blah blah blah' but they will absolutely REFUSE to look at what the Islamists will do to Them,

and I just want to scream, they think Custer was bad, Hell they don't know what Bad is...

and thats what Really boggles my mind, its not just Christians they will go after or Jews, they'll go after the pagans and wiccans and animists too, in fact, they Hate paganism...esp women who profess any belief in Goddesses.

People won't believe it till the Islam INQUISITION is at their door dragging them out to the street....

and Thats the really scary thing, is the just duped stupidity of so many who its like they have blinders--

to close, you know that movie with Nicole Kidman, the "Invasion", well,

thats how Islam is I think--and how Fascism is, and thats Exactly what we are seeing in the world today, the Invasion.

Natasha,

Some of us value your perspective very much. Frankly it's something we didn't encounter here, at least not to the extent you provide, before you made your first appearance. If you are within academia I hope that you have tenure. Speaking out the way you do could be bad for your career on many a college campus these days.

Speaking for myself (and some others too I'm sure) I hope that you continue to stop by and speak truth to power, even unpleasant truths about our own society, attitudes, and shortcomings. Our own faults and failures do create golden opportunities for the Islamists to exploit.

As father to two very young daughters I am all too aware of the leering, predatory dangers which lurk (an apt term) in this society, in western societies. While despicable and pervasive (e.g. the enormous and often hate-filled pornography industry), the dangers are at least against the law in most cases (as with child porn and exploitation). So there is at least recourse and ability to stiffen laws etc.

Whereas in Islam, as you point out, the predatory and oppressive subjugation of women (and not only women) is not just tolerated, but mandated, obligatory even. It's almost beyond belief, but that's the incredibly rigid belief system we're up against. Unfortunately it's a strong, predatory system too so we need to be strong and united in oppostition to it or it will eventually prevail.

The sooner we all name it, and face up to it, and confront it, the better our chances are to avert this looming future disaster for ourselves but even more so for children and their children.

That's why I visit here as often as I do.

Profitsbeard, if you're still checking in on this thread... I'm curious about what the woman in your link is singing about?







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