Rome, 21 August (AKI) - Italy's Foreign Ministry has instructed the country's embassy in Cairo to monitor closely the plight of an Egyptian man, Mohammed Hegazi, who has received death threats following his conversion from Islam to Christianity. -- from this article
This is thanks to a handful of people -- to Oriana Fallaci, and more recently, to the writings and appearances on the RAI of the fearless Magdi Allam. Allam was born and raised in Egypt by parents who called themselves Muslims, were quietly pious, and sent him to Christian schools. Then he left Egypt for Italy, where he received his higher -- in all senses -- education, in and out of university, married an Italian girl, and now is a vice-director, I believe, of the Corriere della Sera. He appears frequently on the RAI (the state-owned television, of which there are three variants, Rai Uno, Rai Due, Rai Tre).
Magdi Allam has written several important books. Two are directly about Islam. The first is "Vincere La Paura" (Conquering Fear), a book which includes a "Lettera aperta a Oriana Fallaci" (in which Allam takes issue with her sweeping dismissal of Islam -- I think he does so wrongly) and a more convincing "Lettera aperta a Tariq Ramadan." Magdi Allam knows Ramadan, and from what he comes, perfectly, and dismembers him before your very eyes.
The second, shorter book is "Kamikaze Made in Europe (Riuscira l'Occidente a Sconfiggere i Terroristi Islamici?)" (Will the West Manage to Defeat Islamic Terrorists?).
Most recently, Magdi Allam published "Viva Israele" --"Long Live Israel." This is a paean of well-deserved praise, and expression of affection -- one which comes naturally to the apostates or near-apostates of Islam, for it is they who know best how terribly Israel has been maligned, and they who know best the dangers it has passed through, and the dangers it permanently faces. They know all this far better than any Infidel supporters of Israel possibly could.
All of Magdi Allam's books should be translated, at once, by professionals, into two dozen major languages. If the C.I.A. had its wits about it, it would pay for the publication itself, as during the Cold War it set up publishing houses -- "Editions de la Seine" and so on -- to publish Russian-emigre literature, which was then handed out to Soviet tourists, who would read those books on the spot, or smuggle them back into the Soviet Union. What dimwits are running things now? Or is it that the Saudi agents, willing or unwitting, are preventing even the most modest efforts at a counter-Jihad of spreading simply the intelligent views of those who know Islam best?
And it is also due to others, especially to the Pope, when as Cardinal Ratzinger he exchanged letters with the learned Massimo Pera (a Senator -- in Italy, not quite the same thing as here, being a non-elected post, but still a very influential one). Those exchanges, on the subject of Islam and the West, and the West's inability to recognize the nature of Islam and the danger it poses, permanently, to the institutions, political and legal, and to the very civilization of the West, are set out in a book of a handy size similar to that of Magdi Allam's three books noted above: "Senza Radici." It has been put into English, as part of the translating-the-Pope effort, and is well worth finding and reading.
Italy will be, because of such people, the least likely to succumb among the European states. After all, the Italians are surrounded by two-thirds of the entire production of Western art, and can only with great difficulty avoid appreciating the legacy of the West. They have retained a historic memory of the Ottomans, or the general Islamic threat: "Mamma, li Turchi!" is a phrase that has entered the language as a way to express sudden fear of something -- Muslim raiders, say, on the coast. ("Turks" means not only "Turks" but also all the various Muslims who raided up and down the Italian coasts, pillaging, looting, killing men, seizing women.) And there is another verbal phrase in Italian -- "fare salamalecchi" -- "to perform salaam-aleikums." That means to "bow and scrape" with the emphasis on "oily bowing and scraping" in order to curry favor, a phrase obviously constructed from close observation of the observable behavior of Muslims, and not unlike the oleaginous and wily ways of those who, in the British phrase, "are either at your feet or at your throat."
This historical memory, of course, is not present in these United States. And what we get are ignorant but seemingly hard-headed (in truth, because of their ignorance, they are sentimentalists) "military analysts" at think-tank sinecures, solemnly pontificating about Iraq without a clue as to what Islam is, what its texts, tenets, attitudes, atmospherics are, and what its goals, based on those immutable texts, are. Certainly, being remarkably limited people, they have no conception beyond the military of the means by which those goals can be achieved, and for which Iraq is of passing significance. For Islam has in the past few decades leapfrogged over the Mediterranean, and is now present all over the historic heart of the West, that is, the countries of Western Europe. Those countries need to be awakened. Bringing "freedom" to "ordinary moms and dads" in Iraq and then to the greater Middle East will have no effect, none, even were it to be achieved. (And achievement is, because of Islam, impossible.)
The sentimentalists masquerading as tough-minded realists, whether they are loyalists clinging to the idea of "winning" in Tarbaby Iraq, or "critics of the Administration" who ponderously tell us (think of the comical Cordesman, who keeps telling us we have "ethically and morally" a duty to rescue millions of "Iraqis" -- what utter nonsense) that the war cannot be "won" but never take issue with the Administration's definition of "winning," should be ignored. Stick with Oriana Fallaci. Stick with Magdi Allam. Stick with Massimo Pera and Pope Benedict. Something is going right in Italy -- and that is despite that eurocratic Prodi, who wants to "open a dialogue" with Hamas.
Learn from Italy.
"Senza Radici" is published in English under the title "Without Roots" by Joseph Ratzinger and Marcello Pera
"Italy will be, because of such people, the least likely to succumb among the European states."
Don't forget the Cosa Nostra--eventually the Muslims will begin stepping on their toes and will get whacked for their efforts.
Hugh:
I would like to believe you, but have serious doubts. Italians are pretty thoroughly anti-American and anti-Israeli and not unknown for fascist sympathies.
I have to agree with waterdragon52 about the fascist sympathies. Go to a soccer match in Italy and you'll see fans doing Nazi salutes and chanting anti-Semitic slogans.
We take our hope where we can find it but I have yet to meet an Italian who agrees with Oriana Fallaci.
Alas, Hugh, the article is not complete, not as complete as the version in Corriere della Serra, which included the following paragraph:
'The answer from the Farnesina came via Deputy Minister Intini, who guaranteed "all due firmness over a matter of principle." But he also pointed out a few things. "The 'deafening silence' of the Copt Christian Church vis-a-vis this conversion, which was bemoaned by Allam," he says, "is not happening by chance. It stems from the fact that 10 million Copts live in Egypt, are respected, and practice their religion freely." "We have a basic problem," added Intini who, besides, has just returned from a visit to Cairo and Alexandria. "Is there any sense in creating tensions even with our allies and the enemies of extremists such as the Egyptians"? This was the question posed by the deputy minister, who also reiterated a line of dialogue and openness.'
My daily encounters with Italian life are very limited, but I note many things. The first is that the country is overrun with illegal immigrants. Unfortunately, it can't even get rid of the truly dangerous ones, as evidenced by three Moroccans who were to be deported, but then the EU stepped in and said that Morocco would be, well, harsh on the terrorist wannabes, and so blocked the Italian order. Likewise, this week a judge released another imam for lack of evidence, despite the mountains of it produced by the state investigators. About six weeks ago, a little "school for terror" was busted up in Ponte Felcino, Perugia. The evidence against them is also mountainous, and at least they are being kept incarcerated until trial. It seems that the government, and the unelected government in Brussels, is the worst enemy the Italians have.
Have you heard of the campfire girls? On every rural road in the country, literally every rural road, are young women in heels and the skimpiest of clothes, plying the oldest of trades. They have no choice. They came as illegals, thinking they would be barmaids or farm workers, but then their handlers informed them of a sizeable bill incurred for their travel, 30-35k euro, and now they must work to pay it off. Declining to work said trade is not an option. No matter where you go in Italy, there they are.
Another strange trait is that at every tourist site, such as the Piazza dei Miracoli in Pisa, the tourist pamphlets now stress the intertwining of Islamic culture and art forms with the native culture and forms. It is a stretch, to say the least. Considering that much of the Piazza dei Miracoli in Pisa was built with loot from the Islamic army defeated at Palermo in 1064, it's even a little humorous. Yes, there are geometric pattersns, but then the pamphlet cites as the second proof the bronze bull on the roof of the Cathedral--which is small to the point of invisibility on the Cathedral's high peaks, and was part of the loot of Palermo to boot! The third proof the pamphlet promised, it just conveniently forgot. I see that all over Europe now, all its great architecture is allegedly the product of a symbiotic relationship with Islam. Anyone standing on the Piazza dei Miracoli knows full well what a crock that statement is.
The bookstores? Well, funny you should mention Magdi Allam, because he is a very successful writer in Italy. The front bookshelves are filled with the books touted on this site. On 7 July, Bat Yeor's Eurabia was released in Italian with heavy TV promotion. Ayaan Hirsi Ali's books are top sellers. These books are available everywhere, from the bookstores to the local variants of Walmarts (and the next time a European tut tuts the Walmart-ization of America, demand he give up his Carrefour or Auchon or Ipercoop or Leroy-Merlin as well, all big box stores built on the Walmart or Home Depot model).
Other headlines? Numerous arson attacks in Brescia, torching mosques, halal butchers, and more. However, no group is jumping to take credit, and many in law enforcement say that this is rival warfare between different factions of the Muslims already in Italy. Since the number of mosques in Italy has more than doubled since 2003, from 300+ to more than 700 now, not including all those storefront mosques that haven't registered themselves as houses of whorship, it's not surprising there's a little competition for customers.
Well, that's my news from Italy, from my limited perspective. Sorry for the rambling. But I'm not so optimistic about Italy, I guess.
Longtime Lurker,
Thanks for your view of Italy. Eyewitness descriptions always beats the daylights out of today's useless media. To me your post resembles strongly the writing of Oriana Fallaci about Italy and the demise of its cultural heritige under islamic fifth column. Invading their own contries, the commies used a similar tactics. Just like sharia, the comie "new order" required a lot of the cultural background of a nation to be banned or destroyed. Disrepair, desacration and outright partial destruction were used to de-value anything that commies wanted removed. So later on, when pride and historical value of any given object were reduced to nothing, there was no public resentment about it's demolition. Even if it is completely false,the claim of "intertwining of Islamic culture and art forms with the native culture and forms" will make many less eager to defend a building or a piece of art. Anything and everything to make an European resent their own culture and accept sharia as a substitute.
Relatively, comparatively -- not absolutely -- sensible or safe. And there is more to be said about the vu cumpra, and the Albanian gangsters, and the Rumanian gangsters, and the Braziliian -- viados problem, and the Nigerian prostitute problem, and so many other things. But I think such things as Montanelli's "Stanza," and Magdi Allam both on the RAI and on the Corriere della Sera, and the Pope, and Pera, and some left-wing non-idiots (Walter Veltroni rather than the admittedly charmingly-moustachioed Massimo d'Alema), and Ernesto della Loggia and many others, and even the steadying force, the mental ballast, provided by those who never write on Islam at all -- I am thinking of Franco Alberoni in the Corriere, or the humorful Umberto Eco (if he still has his full-page column in L'Espresso --it's too expensive in America for me to buy) -- I still think Italy's going to be better off than France, or Germany, or the Netherlands, or Great Britain.
If any Italians reading this think this piece, or a hundred others about Islam (see above) ready for prime-time could make it into the Corriere or Il Foglio -- Mr. Meotti, do you come to JihadWatch? --- please let me know, via Robert.
Hugh, you are right that Italy has not surrendered yet. And from my limited observation (my Italian is schifa, to say the least), it seems that while most Italians seem to be sleeping through the deluge, they are certainly capable of saying, "To Hell with you," viz la Fallaci, when the time comes for it. But I just endured l'Agusto, that month-long sostino, and it hammers home how much the damage is not done by the squatters, the illegals and the Shariads, but by the deeply entrenched Socialism. I live in Campagna, rough turf to say the least, but also full of rough men who make things happen. Yet they are all joined to the government at the teat. Only by playing in the corrupt economy does one escape the omnipresent intrusion.
I spent last week in Toscano, in many ways it appears healthier. I found no makeshift villages of Islamic paesans on the piazzas. But all the bronze doors now moved to museums, were the environmental damages caused by the climates, or by something else not mentioned? And there were other hints, of what I cannot portend. I lifted my children to the top of a pedestal holding a statue of Romulus and Remus and their wolf-mother. Beside me a French-speaking Moroccan lifted two of his children, while another two waited and a fifth took its time in his mother's womb. They all smiled, even mama, at me. A little earlier an obvious "Asian," complete with white pajamas and beanie, photographed his wife, bedecked in burka, in front of the same statue. Interestingly, it was the older woman (his mother? hers?) who wore only a light scarf, and seemed to be pretty disgusted with the whole display of her scion. So in a nutshell, we saw one of those subsequent generations that are more Muslim than Mohammad. The first family seemed well-adapted (she wore only a scarf, too), but what of their children? Did any of them know the story of Romulus and Remus, and know of the virtues of Republican Rome that the statue was meant to inspire in the city's citizens? What, really was the point of their being there, and what did they take away? And it was these people that had already produced more children than any other three Italian families on le ferie.
When I go to the local shopping malls or markets, it is exceedingly rare to encounter a family with more than two children. I don't know that I encountered any Toscani with more than two children, either. But I did encounter several caucasian families with four or five children in tow. What struck me was that they valued Florence, they valued Pisa, they valued the Renaissance and the dignity of man created in the image of God, higher than the angels because man alone possesses reason in common with God. Even if Socialism has sapped the will, or the pocketbook, of so many, they honored the past by creating a future. I found that, at least, a good sign.
One other signpost: the Chinese are everywhere, speaking Italian and running businesses. If Boumedienne is to prove right, his heirs will have to outproduce the Chinese after the old Europeans have left the field.
Excommie, regarding the art and architecture guides, I noted the same thing in Seville, Spain, earlier this year. I visited the Real, originally a Moorish palace. Every inch of the bookshop discussed the Islamic/Moorish influence. But as I paid attention, I came to understand how little of the Real was Moorish, only the original gates and one large, tiled building. When I studied the tiled building, I noticed at least half of the finish work in it was post-Moor, with images of Spanish princesses and lords and scads of Christian symbols, all located where there were no lights. The gardens? A post-Moorish addition. All the outer wings, the fountains, the labyrinth? All later. Yet none of the official publications would explain them that way. These sites are very dependent on Euro-payments, and with them come conditions, and advisors, the plague of Belgium and Eurabia. I'm sure others at this site can report similar observations all throughout Europe.
With the exception of Euro Disney, of course.
I wish I could read Italian. Nice to see these signs of hope for Italy.
Hi all,
this is my first post here on JW - DW
Anyway, i'm a reader of these sites since Oriana received support form Mr Spencer for Rage & Pride and the other pamphlets, and 'til today i used them as mine open source for free information about islamic madness and about people thoughts through the forum.
I studied spanish & french at school, and only later english & portuguese for my own instruction - so please sorry, ill do many mistakes.
What i'd like to say is that i feel really upset when in site like JIhadwatch stereotypes are still present.
Anyway ill have to proceed for points & posts:
- Areas where Cosa Nostra is "active" in the south islamic treat does not exist, muslims behave "quiet"...
- In Italy, like the rest of Europe (except UK & France for different reason) pro and vs US feelings can be identified as 50%-50%. Viceversa Anti-Israel sentiment is due to the clore relation between communists & palestinians.
- About Fascist symapthies in stadiums...well, i'm sure hooliganism can be identified everywhere with political issues too... Germany - uk - France???
- Very difficult to find Italians pro Fallaci? Really strange, in Italy "Rage & Pride" 3 millions copies - sold out 6 times. Let me say Sebastien you did not meet many Italians...
- Long time Lurker, well im not into tourist trips nor materials nor commercial magazines for tourists too... So sounds strange to me what you're saying.
Anyway you are a good observator about families and child. Recent born % rises due to Muslims and south american immigrants. But as you can imagine S.Americans are not seen as a treat like mulims who are also the great majority of immigrant asking for support to Caritas and other ONG's.
ABout attacks agaist Mosques, well im not with you - Its obviously someone reacting to Muslim presence and behaviour. Some Italian, its nothing organized, but made on rage only. Every mosque attack' been on clearly fundamentalist mosque.
About Chinese you are right too...
But most of all you identified the cause of all: SOCIALISM
Regards to all
Makia, welcome to the site.
I'm not sure I understand your comment about cosa nostra and the Muslim threat. However, la cosa nostra refers to the Sicilian organization, while other groups such as Ndragheta and the Comora operate on the mainland, predominantly in the south of Italy. However, most of the problems with Muslims in Italy occur in the North, from Umbria on up, especially in a broad belt from Milan to Padova. I don't believe there is any relationship between the presence of criminal families and Muslim quietitude. Rather, there is more work up north and better welfare networks. Most Muslims in the south are on their way to somewhere else.
I don't see Latin Americans in Italy, however, Indians from Peru and Bolivia are all over southwestern Spain. I could only guess at their immigration status, never having been too concerned with the Incan threat.
As for the mosque attacks, I agree that they are probably not organized, just local expressions of dissatisfaction. Of note, the bigger Islamic centers in the cities can accommodate their audience, but in the countryside these ad hoc Islamic centers draw the local Muslims out of the woodwork, creating crowds that draw attention. Easy targets for local malcontents.
Oh, and one other big story that I forgot to mention is that of an illegal immigrant to Italy from Iran, who is lesbian. Here, the gay groups have been vocal and insistent that she not be forcibly returned to Iran, where she faces certain punishment and possibly death. The Italian government probably will not return her. It would be good if other gay organizations similarly recognized which regimes protect their rights, and which don't, and why.
Hi Lurker,
You seem to me very informed, but i'd like to know if you live in Italy or you are only an frequent tourist?
Can i ask you where are you based if you live here, or why are you so well informed?
Well, i'm sure you know in Italy guns are not so easy to find. So the reason' why Southern Italy remains without muslim treat is not only due their "lack" of number, but mainly (IMO) to the fact that they're in zones where cannot behave aggressively because reaction comes fast and furious - with Lupara Bianca (lost body assasination) in many cases.
Obviously you are totally right mentioning north regions as the area where they concentrate and live in ghetto - first step towards problems.
Sounds strange about south americans, there are many in every city, and they are slowly integrating due to the fact that they are true catholics, something Italy began to loose 50 years ago...
About the lesbian, I'm sure she's not in Italy but in England, am i wrong?
Anyway about the topic: I'm not sure the Egyptian noe the Lesbian will be hosted by Italy. Our Leftist government will not risk a deterioration with Iran nor Egypt. Hope im wrong
Regards
Makia,
I currently live in Campania, which as I state up front, colors much of what I see.
The lesbian I spoke of is in Italy. There's no real pressure to deport her to Iran, so I expect she'll stay. As for Egypt, I'm not knowledgeable enough to wager a guess on the outcome of that effort.
Makia,
I am only familiar with Florence and the area nearby. The group of friends I have their are lefty ex students. They think I'm a fascist but still let me play with them.
Good thinking and writing has been done by certain individuals in Italy, but in practice they have very little impact (if any) and it's hard to see the country determined enough to implement the necessary changes in time.
I hope Italy wakes up. If so, the ripple effect could extend far beyond her shores - to all those other places where Italians have settled.
I have a friend who was born in Australia to Friulan Italian immigrant parents from Gorizia in north-eastern Italy.
She is a lovely Christian lady and she never says the word 'Muslim' without sounding like she wants to spit - something she learned from her parents and the Italian milieu she grew up in, where although no-one had read the Qur'an, everyone had a strong cultural memory of what the Turks and the Saracens and the Moors were like.
During the 'Cronulla riots' in Sydney my friend was of the strongly expressed opinion that the Muslim Lebanese got what was coming to them. And you should have heard her opinion of Sheik 'Catmeat' Hilaly!
Now: Australia has a very large Italian community. It also has a very large Greek community - Melbourne is supposed to be one of the largest Greek cities outside mainland Greece!
If both of those groups can recover and rekindle their cultural wisdom about Islam, their bitter memory of what it was like to be on the front-line against Jihad (Italy) or to be mired in the misery of dhimmitude (Greece) [and how HARD they had to fight to get out of it] and if they then share it with the rest of Australia, the mood in Australia could shift very smartly. You see, we dislike pride and presumption and we love the underdog.
Once we Aussies work out that Islam has historically cornered the market on sheer ruthless arrogance and oppression - and that groups like the Greeks were Underdogs for centuries - then the Muslims will lose their 'victim card' so fast!
Hi all & thx for all the replies
Lurker,
Italy is interested to allow the Asylum for the lesbian, but the situation is evolving in UK
Link from guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2155893,00.html
Hope you are enjoying staying in Campania, what about a Bufala dish? ;)
Sebastien,
i know what are you talking about... Toscana ensemble with Romagna is the most Communist region of Italy. Do not try to convince your friends about your thoughts, you will result fascist anyway. Italian Leftists have TRUTH on their side...thats why we are still experiencing a sort of cold civil war in the last 50 years between the two sides (R-L). Resulting in the election of Berlusconi to avoid Leftist government...
Otranto,
You are right, but there's a reason why there's no impact: Media & Opinion Makers & LEaders are on the anti-islamophobia MODE. Important news from the world about Islamic madness is well hidden to the mass, and alsomany internal news about this issue often are not presented to the public.
So great part of italians are not atotally aware about the problem, remaining only diffident about muslim for reminescence reasons...as dumbledoresarmy reflect in his thoughts ;)
Regards to all and thx
http://mangoditreviso.blogspot.com/2007/08/non-sopporta-la-statua-della-madonna.html
Makia, while I still don't know if I agree with you regarding Campania, the incident described in the link--a new Muslim immigrant cementing in a grotto containing a statue of the Madonna--would not happen down here.
Ah, la mozzarella di bufala, si bella. Stasera ceno solo una pizza margherita. However, the tremendous levels of toxic waste illegally dumped in Campania are now measurable in the mozzarella di bufala, and some physicians recommend one not eat local Campanian produce because of all the toxins. Truly pathetic.