"I believe the only way is to expose the Muslims to different cultures, different thoughts, different belief systems," said Dr Sultan, who is completing her first book, The Escaped Prisoner: When Allah is a Monster. -- from this article
Here is one of those details: those who are in a position to do so must work first to educate Infidels, so that a sufficient number of them in positions of power clearly understand the texts, tenets, attitudes, atmospherics of Islam. They must also be brought to understand why it is that efforts at appeasement and "integration" of Muslims into societies whose basic principles are flatly contradicted by Islam will fail.
And then, beyond the political and journalistic groups, and beyond those who are to protect and instruct us, there are ever-widening groups of citizens. These must make sure that in every encounter with Muslims, their new knowledge, and new implacable attitude, are not hidden from view, but self-confidently displayed.
What effect will this have on Muslims? It will madden many. So what? Many have already been taught to spread Islam, to subdue Infidels, to remove every obstacle to the imposition of rule by Muslims. And they are prepared to use what instruments at the time prove most effective. Furthermore, they have never been put in a position where they are forced to look at, or to confront, the history of Islamic Jihad conquest and the subjugation of non-Muslims. Make them do so. Force them to do so.
And make them look -- because increasing numbers of Infidels will not for one minute let them forget -- at the way in which the basic doctrines of Islam, and the figure of Muhammad, have worked themselves out in history. If there is despotism and corruption all over the Muslim lands, make sure they understand that it is Islam itself that locates political legitimacy in the will expressed by a whimsical Allah, as revealed in the Qur'an, and glossed -- for most Muslims -- by the Hadith and Sira. Make them look at the fact that there is economic paralysis in the Muslim lands, despite the ten trillion dollars received since 1973 alone by ten Muslim members of OPEC. The few Muslim states that have some economic development have it because, though Muslim, they have for a long time been living with the systematic constraining of Islam as a political and social force, as in Turkey. Or they might enjoy a relatively higher level of economic development because they have within their borders a sufficient number of non-Muslims who are able to provide the essential element for economic development, as in Malaysia, or to provide a kind of modernizing and civilizing effect on the local Muslims, or at least on some of them, as has happened because of the large Christian presence in Lebanon.
And do the same with social, moral, and intellectual development. Try to persuade Muslims to learn history, including the history of early Islam, and how it developed, and what was the real story of the Qur'an. In other words, subject Islam to the same treatment that Christianity and Judaism were subjected to by the practice of the Higher Criticism.
The most primitive people will not stand for it. But others will, and then they will begin to think. Some may have already begun to think, especially if they are non-Arab Muslims and can first have their minds opened a bit by appealing to their understanding of the role non-Arabs play within Islam. Some may already have begun to think if it has been pointed out to them how Islam is, and has always been, a vehicle for Arab linguistic, cultural, and other kinds of imperialism. Intelligent Persians, Indonesians, even some Pakistanis, will not be able to deny the truth of that assertion, and who knows? Some may, after examining all this evidence, find themselves in a mood to look back to their pre-Islamic pasts, national and personal.
But it starts with the Infidels, and what they know, or are capable of learning and understanding. The only way to expose the Muslims to different cultures, different thoughts, different belief systems, as Dr. Sultan recommends, is through the efforts of Infidels.
THis is a little off the subject - I just got my notice that Mr. Spencer's book is being shipped to me today! hoorah!
(this was of in the area of education)
"But it starts with the Infidels, and what they know, or are capable of learning and understanding. The only way to expose the Muslims to different cultures, different thoughts, different belief systems, as Dr. Sultan recommends, is through the efforts of Infidels."
Seriously folks, what kind of culture, belief system, set of ideas, do we propose the soon-to-be-former-Muslims adopt?
1) Godless hedonism?
2) Communism?
3) Judaism?
4) Hinduism?
5) Scientology?
6) Christianity?
No putdown intended to Hindus or Jews (truly the canaries in the coal mine), but the answer is 6.
========
Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."
Quote above from Matthew 24.
Australia:
Moonbat Judge Restores Haneef Visa
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/08/21/dying-for-allah-comes-at-a-cost-of-at-a-cost-of-150000-to-the-national-health-service/
I have noticed that some of the ex-muslims who are trying to warn us are atheists, eg: Hirsi Ali.
I think they have to make the choice for themselves. I don't think atheism fills the void for anyone since I think it is also an extremist belief of which communism is among its group. And communists have also killed more people since its inception in the last century as the muslims have slaughtered in 1400 years. It is so close to islam without the use of a religion as a front (at least religion as we think). And look at how we have dealt with communism - I don't think that we have been very successful overall. It is in our system now - infiltrated as is islam, and they are both looming and spreading. Both idiotologies are crawling in Europe even more so, but more of us seem to have more backbone that the Euros to still stand up to it.
If a person wants to break from islam I think we should support them. But, can we keep taking in people like that along with the masses of so-called 'moderate' muslims who are immigrating here too? I personally agree with others who say to stop muslim immigration, but I know that flies as far as I can spit. I think 'moderate' islam/muslims are just a wish on our part, as is thinking islam can be changed.
Educating the infidels is the best idea that I can think of that has come out of these articles since I have started reading. We can only change ourselves and that is the best defense since we have seen that the conquests that muslims have made so far have been of peoples who have been way too ignorant and chosen not to defend their own way of life.
"[W]hat kind of culture, belief system, set of ideas, do we propose the soon-to-be-former-Muslims adopt?"
-- from a posting above, by a poster who then goes on to suggest "Christianity" is the only conceivable right answer to his loaded multiple-choice question.
What off-putting presumption. In the first place, it does not mention many of the world's larger faiths -- skipping Buddhism altogether, for example -- but elevates "Scientology" to a position of presumed level-headedness with "Judaism" and "Hinduism." It identifies a way of life -- "godless hedonism" -- what about "good Christian hedonsim" of which this country is full of examples? and then an applied economic theory (Marxism) as put into political practice, giving us "Communism."
What is being discussed, in the article above, is how to weaken the Camp of Islam, and how to do so first by educating, or permitting the education of, Infidels, who then, properly informed and presumably minimally articulate, will then by their new attitude force Muslims to confront the problems with Islam -- as the best, and most intelligent, and morally sensible people born into Islam, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, Ibn Warraq, have all done on their own. But they are exceptions. We have to worry about the rule.
And you, poster above, have to worry about another rule: the rule that is, not to inject your own preferences, which may put some off -- which put me, an atheist, off, by your presumption, and your presumption especially that "we" have a right to dictate to disaffected Muslims what they must do upon jettisoning Islam. How about letting them decide that? Some may embrace Christianity. Some may try Buddhism. For all I know, a few may discover that a certain number of generations back, their ancestors, Hindus or Christians or Jews, trying desperately to avoid persecution or the onerousness of the dhimmi status, converted to Islam and now they have decided to re-seek or re-adopt those roots.
Ibn Warraq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and Wafa Sultan are all capable of functioning, thinking, feeling, as freethinkers. So too was Pim Fortuyn that "hedonist," or Oriana Fallaci, for much of her life the kind of person whom you, I suspect, would dismiss, having wrongly identify as a soi-disant "Communist."
The subject here is not what Muslims abandoning Islam should become. Let such a person become a Leibnizian monad, alone in a hut on Mount Monadnock, for all we should care. Don't presume to preach your preference. At least not at this website, this big tent, this supersized tent so capacious and ample, with room enough even for "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims, who see the problem, and may be beginning, as the old song puts it, to see the light.
"The only way to expose the Muslims to different cultures, different thoughts, different belief systems, as Dr. Sultan recommends, is through the efforts of Infidels.""
....and the Infidels should do as the Muslims do...begin indoctrinating the children from birth to the Christian Ideals and beliefs...the Infidels should also teach the children from an early age to recognize the meanings of taqqiyah, kitman, qital, jizyah, and many other things they may encounter when Muslims talk to them....The Infidels should begin weapons and survival training to the children at an early age, the children should learn ambush tactics, escape and survival tactics,concealment tactics, knife fighting, hand to hand fighting, surveillance tactics, target recognition tactics, communication methods, security tactics, and they should learn the identity of the opposition leaders....they should learn young and fast...they Muslims are already doing this....
The first group to be "educated" is at the Wall Street Journal. This weekend they fell over themselves pointing out how right it was to install footbaths in college campuses.
The people who saw the 9/11 attacks from their offices still believe Islam is a religion of peace with nothing to distinguish it from all other religions.
I know that if I have made people's hair raise - I am sorry. And we should probably get off the subject of what a person should believe in if they leave islam.
Dealing with ourself is the only one that we can change. If I haven't learned anything else over my years - I have learned that. I cannot change anyone else. And knowledge is the best way to change myself - or else I will go along with the same things that I have always known/did.
I am not going to change my viewpoint on athiesm, communism or any other *ism and if it offends - oh well. I just won't write it anymore.
Infidels, who then, properly informed and presumably minimally articulate, will then by their new attitude force Muslims to confront the problems with Islam
--posted by Hugh
At which point the Muslim, will confront the Infidel with the problems of living without Islam.
It will go nowhere.
Darkness needs light.
And you, poster above, have to worry about another rule: the rule that is, not to inject your own preferences,
--posted by Hugh
Yes, but injecting our own judgments and prejudices is always okay.
This is all absolutely correct. I work very hard not to necessarily deliver new and exciting spin on the same old information, as I do on making the oodles of information that already exists far more accessible to the masses.
One browse through my multimedia section should verify that, and turn a lukewarm infidel into a tepid one in about one day -- if they are actually paying attention and coming with an open mind.
Moonbats need not apply themselves.
Right on Hugh.
But it might be too late to educate the muslim umma.
And it is only because we have a pointy end of a spear that we can force the umma to confront itself.
But you are right - it begins in the koran and in history.
I guess I am another of those godless hedonists, i.e., an atheist. Woohoo. Really, the re-education of Muslims is to hope they convert to Christianity as a poster wrote above. Christianity is the only alternative? I judge people by thier actions and I dare say that my actions as an atheist are more moral than my homeschooled neighbors with their little fishes stuck on the back of their cars, etc. I take better care of my pets than they do of their one cat - abandoned to the neighborhood. Yeah, it's a very small detail, but it bothers me when anyone, whatever their religious belief, assumes some superiority only by virtue of their religious belief. So if you go to church every Sunday or the mosque every Friday and still beat your wife, kids or pets, what does that mean? That you're an abusive worthless human being. My husband and I know a couple. He's a reformed Buddhist (former Christian) and his wife is native born Thai Buddhist. They eat meat, like to go target shooting and hunting, not exactly how I would describe a Buddhist. However, he, when discussing current events, will go off on Christians, like my neighbors but the Muslims seem to get a pass. So the "magic show" that he describes Christianity does not apply to Islam... My point - that as far as I am concerned, no religious belief of any kind would do all of this world a big favor.
"but injecting our own judgments and prejudices is always okay."
-- from a more-than-peeved poster above
What of my "own judgments and prejudices" have I inflicted here? I have not pushed either for my own unbelief, save to remind people when they go off on a harangue for, say, Christianity as the only conceivable antidote to Islam, that a very long list of freethinking apostates exists. Nor have I ever attempted to promote, as you so blatantly have, one form of belief, among the various traditiional faiths, over another, making the single exception of Islam, which I consider a Total System, and quite different from what are traditionally called religions, especially in its current form, with its current ability to make mischief and more all over the world.
I am no Hitchens, trying to mock religion -- but I have mocked Hitchens himself (see www.newenglishreview.org). I keep all kinds of opinions out of this website, and put them, or those I choose to offer, at another website.
Please offer me an example of my so-called missionary-work on behalf of atheism, or against or for any non-Islamic religion, at this website, or try to.
Hmmmm....
For the past two month reports out of Iraq clearly indicate the US military under the command of COIN expert General P. is turning the tide against the enemy.
Do the multitude of those who, on this website, oppose phyisical engagment with the enemy in Iraq find this disheartening to their agenda? If so, why? If not, why?
Can those of you on this website that oppose physical engagement with the enemy in Iraq find support in your strongly held position with the likes of Hirsi Ali, Walfa Sultan, and Ibn Wariq?
Please advise me or direct me - specifically - where I can read this refutation (by the aforementioned experts) that we should not be engaged physically in Iraq?
Thank you.
I am still amazed at the ordinary people that I encounter who are clueless, including co-workers and relatives. They continue to believe in this "Religion of Peace" lie. Most people do not want to hear about real Islam. They want to be told that it is as peaceful as any other religion, and Islam is merely in a phase that will go away. They tell me that they are too busy to spend time learning. They get their info from the MSM and swallow every word. I was so frustrated once that I told a nephew to STFU if all he could do was regurgitate what he heard on MSNBC. I can't even get them to watch Glenn Beck! I think I must be adopted; my relatives are dumb.
It is an uphill battle; the slope is getting steeper.
@Hugh, et al.
I am not arguing the merits of Christianity over atheism. I do believe that atheists are intelligent, reasoned and very principaled people. I studied existentialism; I learned that atheism is not incompatible with the highest form of moral conduct. Because there is no promise of heavenly reward for moral acts (according to atheists), maybe it's even more of an upward call than Christianity.
But I believe that we are in global crisis. I never understood why Christ's message of salvation was as urgent today as it was in His time. The spreading darkness of Islam is for me "proof" that the world ignores Christ's message at its own peril.
Sitting among my fellow congregationists, I find not a one that doesn't see with passion and with crystal clarity the menace and challenge of Islam.
Hugh,
the comment:
"but injecting our own judgments and prejudices is always okay."
was not directed at you!
I was trying to say that while posters can bash Islam (which I've done), the promotion of Christianity gets somebody in trouble.
Sorry for the confusion.
Working with infidels to take down islamists how many ways are there? why has Europe's liberal elite not been able to counter the islamists takeover of Europoe?
Many of the liberal European elites are "godless" and believe in nothing, and therefore cannot think of fighting for nothing?
The US does have a very strong core of Christians who do believe in fighting for their rights. The liberal elites have a new religion and its called green religion, the environment, mother earth, aka Algore. The Algore types cannot see the biggest threat are the islamists.
Hugh, great article.
I think you are certainly right about educating the "infidels" as to jihad--that's a big part of what this site is about, after all.
As to the West educating Muslims--sadly, I'm not so sure that this is possible. Oh, of course--there are Muslims such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Wafa Sultan, intelligent people who had already become dismayed with aspects of Islam, who learned more and more in the West.
For those of us who are rational, it seems impossible to think that anyone could look at the hell of a Saudi Arabia or an Afghanistan, and not think that they come off rather poorly (to put it mildly) compared to life in the West. By almost any yardstick--standard of living, individual rights, security of life and possessions, freedom, achievement in almost any field, academic or scientific--the West is entirely superior. In fact, compared to life in most of the "Muslim World", few places on earth are worse.
But, of course, there have been many more Muslims, from Sayyid Qutb, the condemner of gentle church dances back in the 1940s, to the London Tube bombers, who are anything but impressed by the modern world and its many achievements.
I think the basis of this lies, like so much else, in the Qur'an. An attitude found over and over again in the Qur'an is a contempt for achievement in general. Dark Ages Arabia was littered with the relics of great civilizations--Eqyptian, Roman, Jewish and other Semitic peoples. There is a profound, even agressive, incuriousity about these relics--if these people were so great, why did Allah allow their civilizations to fall into ruin? It is all just worthless Jahilliya.
Dark Ages Arabia in the 7th-Century was a violent, chaotic hell-hole in general, but even in places like this there are degrees of squalor. Many Jews, Christians and even some pagans lived a more settled, wealthier and more peaceful life of farming and trading than did the warring desert nomad tribes that spawned Muhammed and Islam.
The Qur'an warns the faithful not to consider the wealth and achievements of Infidels to result from any sort of virtue to be emulated. Instead, it is a trial--a test--of Muslims. If this was a consideration circa 650 AD, how much more so today? I think this is the main reason so many Muslims feel so guilty and conflicted about adopting values of non-Muslim societies, no matter how much it improves their lives.
In fact, the wealth and achievements of infidels are often considered an outright *provocation* to many Muslims, and a spur to Jihad. How dare mere infidels have possess what "rightfully" belongs to Muslims? Like the young Muslim muggers on the streets of Stockholm, they think that taking things from infidels by violence is just "returning" things to Muslims, who should have them by right.
If they have this attitude to your wallet and your cell phone, then why not your nuclear weapons? Hell, why not your whole damn society. They've done it before--over and over and over again. Arabia, the Levant, North Africa, Persia--even Spain and parts of Eastern Europe, for a time. The fact that "Islamic values" lead inexorably to corruption and stagnation, as noted, is either not acknowledged, or is used as justification to conquer yet more infidel lands. Ideally, the dhimmis can do everything, from cleaning the outhouse to building the oil wells to developing more state-of-the art weapons technology.
As to making Muslims look at what has been done to non-Muslims through the ages, I do agree that many decent Muslims would be appalled if they really acknowledged their history. But, I think there are at least as many who would be anything but perturbed--they would find the violence, repression and forced dhimmitude something to be proud of--an indication that Islam was strong then. It would be one more reason to try to re-establish the Caliphate. Even without understanding the full history, many jihadists are using the same historic methods against non-Muslims today--in Thailand, in Kashmir, in Beslan, even in the West.
Can these attitudes be overcome? I hope so, since so much depends on this. But I think we have to consider that there are these enourmous impediments which are fundamental in the Muslim world-view.
I agree it is is extremely important to say that *we* understand this history, and will not fall passive or ignorant victim to it.
Be encouraged! The Infidels of the EU are waking-up. Visit the SIOE site and see.
Dr. Sultan's high profile presentation to Australia's government officials will get traction. Now the politicians and common citizens will have more license to speak out about Islam.
From Hugh;
"...Some may, after examining all this evidence, find themselves in a mood to look back to their pre-Islamic pasts, national and personal."
How many Muslims are Muslims by a choice of the free-will.
Educate the Infidel, and the soon to be ex-Muslim.
Be encouraged! The Infidels of the EU are waking-up. Visit the SIOE site and see.
Dr. Sultan's high profile presentation to Australia's government officials will get traction. Now the politicians and common citizens will have more license to speak out about Islam.
From Hugh;
"...Some may, after examining all this evidence, find themselves in a mood to look back to their pre-Islamic pasts, national and personal."
How many Muslims are Muslims by a choice of the free-will.
Educate the Infidel, and the soon to be ex-Muslim.
Be encouraged! The Infidels of the EU are waking-up. Visit the SIOE site and see.
Dr. Sultan's high profile presentation to Australia's government officials will get traction. Now the politicians and common citizens will have more license to speak out about Islam.
From Hugh;
"...Some may, after examining all this evidence, find themselves in a mood to look back to their pre-Islamic pasts, national and personal."
How many Muslims are Muslims by a choice of the free-will.
Educate the Infidel, and the soon to be ex-Muslim.
Zena,
IMO Europes faithlessness is part of the reason they are being overwhelmed by Muslims. Britian is almost completely a atheistic nation and administered by self-loathing politically corrects drones who do anything to help a bunch of 7th century thugs bent on killing them.
And this is what baffles me about the secular elite. These folks are pure shit in the eyes of Muslims - idol worshippers,apostates and worse. They'd be the first to be killed.
Yet you'll find secularists at the forefront at protecting and advancing Muslim rights here and in Europe and the first to put the boot to any concerned citizen voicing a word in protest.
THIS may serve to educate "infidels":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3dVclswA2w
Youtube Rage Boy in Germany threatening the locals.
Watch it all..
Read the Koran: Spread the Dread.
(I want a line of air-sickness bags with that printed on them.)
Not to offend anyone, but what I read here is mostly a bunch of people with good intentions talking past one another.
The first step in solving any problem is to thoroughly understand it. Most Americans have no idea how violent, brutal and implacable true Islam really is. The first step then is to educate as many Infidels as possible on the true nature of Islam. We should find ways to reach those that don’t have the time or inclination to read books or use the internet, among others.
Solutions will come once a critical mass truly understands the threat. For now, all effort all energy all creativity should be directed at shining light on the monster that is Islam.
I nominate Dr. Wafa Sultan for the role of Honorary Leader of the Free World!
A great, courageous leader! And with this lady at the helm, education of the masses would happen naturally through a sort of personal osmosis.
If I were given the chance to introduce a Muslim to "alternatives", I would not bring up religion at all. I'd probably start with a trip to Scores, cold beer and shooters. Lap dances and fat Cubans. Bongs and Bob Marley. Atlantic City and Texas Hold'em. Colorado powder and ski bunnies. Sand traps and water hazards. Speed boats and water skiing. Small-blocks and Stingrays. Superbowl Sunday and the World Series. The list is endless.
What I would want to teach him/her that there is a life to be lived, here and now, while alive, and that life can be fun and rewarding. That this just may be all that we get.
Here's an off topic question: Does anyone have a reference for the figure of $10 trillion for the amount of money paid to OPEC nations since 1973, given in Hugh's entry? It is a big number, for sure, but it also happens to be about the same amount paid out as welfare in the US since 1964.