This is the world we live in today: the jihadists have created a climate of fear and suspicion. They have successfully "struck terror into the hearts of the enemies" (Qur'an 8:60) and don't have to do a thing to perpetuate that feeling of terror all over. If these Arabic-speaking passengers had been ordered off the plane, a lawsuit would no doubt ensue that would make the Flying Imams look like Zionist Crusaders; as it is, if the identity of the "traveler with a child" who "elected to get off the plane" comes to be known, watch for him or her to be excoriated as a racist.
Meanwhile, what can be done about this? For one thing, if Muslim advocacy groups in America became much more energetic in genuine anti-terror efforts, instead of spending their time complaining about anti-terror efforts and supporting initiatives such as the Flying Imams lawsuit, with its chilling effect on passengers reporting suspicious behavior, the fears of many would be assuaged.
"Passenger dispute delays American Airlines flight overnight," by Debbi Farr Baker for the San Diego Union-Tribune:
SAN DIEGO – A conflict between passengers at Lindbergh Field Tuesday night caused the overnight delay of an American Airlines flight headed to Chicago.Flight 590 was scheduled to depart at 11 p.m. for Chicago O'Hare International Airport but was rescheduled for Wednesday at 10:15 a.m. after some kind of dispute among customers started at the gate and continued onto the plane, said American Airlines spokesman Tim Wagner.
While Wagner said it is the airlines policy not to disclose any information about their passengers, televised reports claimed that the incident involved a group of six to seven Iraqi Americans and another passenger who was apparently uncomfortable that the men were speaking in Arabic.
The jet left the gate at 11:14 p.m. but did not take off and instead returned at 11:26 p.m. after a traveler with a child elected to get off the plane, Wagner said.
The airport's 11:30 p.m. curfew then prevented the plane from taking off, Wagner said.
I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often, actually.
Most Americans speak English, so why are "Iraqi AMERICANS" speaking in Arabic -- are they trying to raise suspicion? Hearing them speak in Arabic would have made me uncomfortable too.
I live in SD and saw the story on the local news this morning. The broadcaster here said that these guys were in San Diego to teach our military Iraqi customs. So, supposedly they were working for the military.
Every effort should be made to accomodate and to support this 'passenger with child' who elected to get off the plane. This PC thing has gone too far, we have rights too.
On Sept. 11-2002, one year after the Islamic terror attack on the WTC, I was supposed to fly from LA to Frankfurt.
I 'elected' not to fly, because there was a group of 4 young Koran-flashing, beardy Arabs in the age group between 20 and 30, plus a sinister looking Imam in his fifties, about to board.
I took it upon myself to spend another night in LA, a great inconvenience at my expense, and I rearranged my ticket to fly the next day.
I would do the same today if I saw myself in a similar situation.
I see it this way: this administration and the xenophobic bandwagon - such as Mr. Spencer and his cohorts, through their incessant hostility towards Muslims and Arabs, have been successful in making Americans scared, and in some cases hateful and vindictive. We are only seeing the “strange fruits” that are coming out of the tree of hatred that Mr. Spencer and others have sown. Bravo, Mr. Spencer!
ANY person of middle eastern decent has to be aware, ESPECIALLY on an airlplane, that travelling in groups and speaking Arabic is going to set off alarm bells. If they don't like that, tough, ride a bicycle.
Troll alert! Ataa alert!
Islamo-logic on display above:
When are you going to fly a jet into a building, Spencer?
I think the term "FEAR" is over used,I think the general public in America is not "AFRAID" of Muslims.
The general public and MOST of the thinking worlds populations are cautious, and alert to those elements of society that have been known to cause death and destruction...
Islamic believers have brought this on themselves, by not correcting the fanatical element within it's ranks.
I am not afraid of much, and Muslims don't even register a blip on my fear scale, I do not fear man, any man.
I watch, I am vigilant and I am cautious...
Americans aren't scared of Muslims, or the fanatical extremists that Islam breeds.
We can't take it upon our selves to investigate or handle the threat we might perceive on our own because of our laws, so we bring it to the authorities. When another attack happens on our soil that procedure will change.
Then Islamic fanatics will know fear.
incessant hostility?
Stop the acts of brutality. Disavow terror. Join civilization as willing partners. Act like grownups.
Or else the moslem world will REALLY see incessant hostility. The civilized world has about had its fill of islam.
This attitude about moslems didn't come out of the blue. We read stories about how they hate us daily. Go to Memri and watch the videos. We didn't start this airport scare dealeo.
ataa,
Interesting name. Spelled slightlt different it would remind me of someone else.
I'm sorry but I must have missed the part where Robert planted this tree of hatred you refer to. Silly me was under the impression that is what muslims had firmly planted when they evicerated 3000 innocent Americans.
"tree of hatred that Mr. Spencer and others have sown"
You are in extreme denial, ataa. The "tree of hatred" is Islam, and Robert Spencer & others are merely telling the truth about the evil behind this "religion of peace".
I for one am thankful for Robert's work, because I was once in complete denial too; and I would rather know the truth then stay stuck in La-La-Land, because that's a very dangerous place to live.
Being informed is your responsibility. Not only for your own safefy, but for the safety and protection of others and for our nation as well.
Why aren't airplanes haram anyway? Women without bags sitting near moslems ...the flight attendants are mostly women and they might touch a moslem. Haram movies....maybe even a *gasp* woman pilot!
And it is after all, an invention of the "infidel" mind.
Civil disobedience. One shouldn’t have to ride on an airplane with men who pray five times a day to a God that calls for his death. If enough people did this, applicable Islamic teachings in hand, the system would break down and we could address the problem (which has nothing to do with Robert Spencer).
ataa: Mr. Spencer and the Bush Administration are not the problem. You and your kind are. Robert Spencer and like-minded individuals merely convey what Muslims and their Islamic schools of theology over the centuries have said about their ultimate design------making the entire Earth Islamic; replacing all constitutional and legal systems with sharia. After all, the Koran calls upon Muslims to subjugate the world, by force if necessary. One knows this or should know it; there is no third alternative. These are not Mr. Spencer's words you excoriate, my words, or the words of millions (and they are growing by the tens of millions every year, those who properly understand what Islam is really all about). They are the words of Muslims. And you are part of the problem, either through ignorance or conscious deception. Shame on you.
This is my first ever post - I hate to swim up stream as I usually agree with most folks on this site. But come on - just because they were speaking Arabic. I have to admit, if I was on that plane - I would be pretty ticked off that my flight got canceled (or delayed until the next morning).
You can bet your bottom dollar that if I think there is a problem of this nature on a plane I'm riding, I WILL SAY SOMETHING...
It's a post-911 world and people better deal with it.
ataa: you're a gutless troll. bite me. No, better yet, get on my plane and start your drivel up with me....
ICAREDOYOU...These men know that to call attention to themselves by speaking Arabic, will make some passangers nervous. They know it is likely to cause a commotion. They have heard , or should have heard of the Six Imams who created similar concerns.
It's possible these guys were from the boonies of the Congo, but they were not. They are American and most certainly speak English. So why the Arabic?...Is there something there you can trust?
ICareDoYou: This is pretty much a "take no prisoners" website by those who have at least a basic understanding of Islam. Compassion is not absent here, but there are limits. So, here's a question for you: If someone you loved----your mother, a spouse, your son or daughter, a sibling, a grandfather, etc.----were getting on a plane, and you heard some other passengers, three or four bearded men, for instance, speaking Arabic, would you be indifferent to said scenario? I think I rest my case here, but please prove me wrong if you are so inclined.
ICareDoYou:
I bet if the plane were blown up you'd be ticked off even more.
You are on the wrong site. Scroll up to the top of the screen and click on 'Dhimmi Watch.'
We'll be looking for you there.
ICareDoYou,
You just validated Robert's post. This IS the world we live in. Sad, but true. If you were in a similar situation, on that plane, would you toe the PC line and ignore what you were hearing, or would you possibly mention it to someone?
This is a life and death struggle against those who willfully choose not to recognize Islam for what it is. PC, and CAIR, tells you to mind your own business and to not engage in thoughts that might be deemed as religious bigotry.
I ask you, if it were yourself and/or your family, on that plane, witnessing firsthand the events, what would you do personally?
ICAREDOYOU...welcome to posting at JW/DW. Don't let the responses throw you, we are all on the same page...except ataa. He is a drop a bomb and run troll.
We don't really know exactly what happened--seems like the facts are still sketchy at best. I'll wait a bit before making an opinion here.
ataa-dhimmi,
You stated, "Bravo, Mr. Spencer!" At least we agree on one thing.
Interest:
"Why aren't airplanes haram anyway?"
Because some idiot Immam back in the early part of the 20th Century (about 1905-1910, to venture a guess) read a story in his copy of "Morning Rage" newspaper about a new invention called the 'aeroplane'.
Then he got thinking..Hmmm, why didn't we think of that?
So he got to digging in all the unholy writings and musings of Mo, and Lo and Behold! He found it! The proof that the Muslims invented aviation!
Us stupid Kaffirs (sorry for that term - forgive me) didn't get the memo.
-------------------------------------------------
Just like everything else in this world, neat and modern an technical, THEY invented it first.
To the point here, I am a pilot. I don't know the details of what happened on the aircraft after it pushed back, but believe me, folks, it had to have been pretty ugly. American pilots will NOT put up with this kind of sh*t. Any potential conflict on an aircraft while it is still on the ground - WILL REMAIN ON THE GROUND!
There, to give all you good folks a professional perspective of why the flight was cancelled.
If the travelling public had confidence in the screening process and security procedures, things like this wouldn't happen.
But the public confidence isn't there, and for many good reasons: The screening process doesn't inspire confidence, both with respect to the things that slip through (and ongoing security probes such as the recent cheese/wires oddities), and the reluctance to profile based on who has attacked us, and who is likely to attack us.
And the screeners don't inspire confidence. The higher ups seem more concerned with public relations than actual safety, and the rank-and-file employees 1.) often appear to be foreign nationals (raising questions of loyalties, as well as of cultural barriers to a functioning team), and/or 2.) just going through the motions rather than displaying any particular vigilance.
If the public cannot trust the screening process or the screeners, passengers will feel they are on their own, and suspicions feed off of and amplify one another.
Sorry about the crabby post.
I'm sure the passengers on 9/11 thought it was a highjacking and had no idea what was in store until it was too late. God bless those "Let's Roll" Americans. I'd go down fighting, too.
Stunts like the flying imans are just provocative, but you never can be sure.
Durka, Durka!
YOU LOSE, Acccchhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmed!
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:yvGe9wFZ_mkJ:www.us-english.org/inc/official/states.asp+california+%22english+is+the+official+language%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
(save this link for "other reasons, too"
Furthermore, Lindbergh Field is privately owned, not an outright federal installation...even with that said, you'd have to be ON or IN the building to shield yourself behind Federal statutes...
...but they were ON/IN the plane, thus private property of the airline, and as long as that aircraft is NOT airborne, even by an inch, California Official Constitutional statute applies!
AND I QUOTE: California State Constitution,
article 3, section 6 reads:
§ 6. Offical state language
Sec. 6. (a) Purpose.
English is the common language of the people of the United States of America and the State of California. This section is intended to preserve, protect and strengthen the English language, and not to supersede any of the rights guaranteed to the people by this Constitution.
(b) English as the Official Language of California.
English is the official language of the State of California.
(c) Enforcement.
The Legislature shall enforce this section by appropriate legislation. The Legislature and officials of the State of California shall take all steps necessary to insure that the role of English as the common language of the State of California is preserved and enhanced. The Legislature shall make no law which diminishes or ignores the role of English as the common language of the State of California.
(d) Personal right of Action and Jurisdiction of Courts.
Any person who is a resident of or doing business in the State of California shall have standing to sue the State of California to enforce this section, and the Courts of record of the State of California shall have jurisdiction to hear cases brought to enforce this section. The Legislature may provide reasonable and appropriate limitations on the time and manner of suits brought under this section.
As I said,
Durka Durka...YOU LOSE!
LOL
I love it when a plan comes together!
(sorces furnished by a friend, who's also an attorney licensed to practice before the US Supreme Court, so it's as good as in the bank)
SLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLAMMMM DUNK!!!
CHA-CHINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!
Better to be late than too late.
Better to be mistaken than taken.
After 3,000 were slaughtered, such concern is only rational when people speaking Arabic (who can speak English, obviously) arouse suspicion.
If you're worried, then get off the flight and be inconvenienced rather than risk being interred.
Mr. Spencer should open an online nursery and start selling his Patented "Trees of Hate".
Glenn Beck needs a whole grove for his sardonic imaginary college called "Hate U.".
The broadcaster here said that these guys were in San Diego to teach our military Iraqi customs. So, supposedly they were working for the military.
Posted by: beecher137
I can't resist: they were in San Diego to teach our military jihad?
I wouldn't give a rat's ass if they were teaching basket weaving...speak english or GTFO.
Marisol :
'the screeners don't inspire confidence'- spot on!
I don't know how bad it is in the US, but I can tell you for a fact that Eurabian Airports are TOTALLY infiltrated by Muhammedans, from the cleaners to the screeners, from the baggage handlers to the Taxi-drivers (are there any other ones?) The taxi drivers are just annoying and can be avoided. But the other jobs are well paid and it is incomprehensible that no natives can be found for those jobs.
It is absurd!
Even here in Australia where I live there is a Muhammedan second in line of command for the overall security of the airport.
Insane! Mad!
I agree with Marisol.
Here in Toronto, most of the conversations around me in public are not English. It is common for people to prefer speaking in their first language.
However, I have decided that, if my instinct ever tells me something is not right, I will do my best to do something or get away. I have given myself permission to listen to my gut. If that means I get off the subway because a crazy person is making me nervous, I get off and catch the next train.
In the station yesterday, at ground level, I saw two large unattended backpacks on a seat. I passed them, looking around to see who they belonged to. There were people around, so I didn't do anything.
I went upstairs, checked the bus schedule, then went back down to buy a cold drink. The bags were still there, so I asked the two TTC employees who were nearby, "Whose bags are those?" They said, "Oh, those are ours."
In the past, I would have wondered if they were lost. Yesterday, I wondered if they were bombs.
Maybe that "traveler with a child" has made the same decision. Maybe his or her gut said to get off the plane. Maybe it was founded in well-placed fear of these specific Arabic speaking men; maybe not.
As Marisol said, we can't exactly feel total confidence in the airport screening process, so what are we to do? As a parent, I'd get off a hundred planes if I thought for a second my child might be in danger. Better safe than sorry.
This incident also suggests that people are realizing that Islam is not a religion of peace and the tiny minority of people willing to become terrorists is not so tiny after all (10 percent of 2 billion is still 2 million, etc.)
Sometimes it's hard to second-guess our instinct; sometimes it's best not to.
It IS a shame you can't look different, act different, or talk different without the other normal passengers thinking you're going to blow the damn plane up!! BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU'RE FRAKKING ISLAMO-NAZI COUSINS HIJACK AIRLINERS AND KILL 3000 INNOCENT PEOPLE!!!!!!
English is the language of this country. If you want to come here you either speak it, or shut up so we don't know that you can't.
Personally, I'd have opened the emergency exit and thrown the 6 SOB's off onto the tarmac head first. Better safe than sorry.
Josephine sez:
(10 percent of 2 billion is still 2 million, etc.)
hahahahahaha!
sheik yer'mami: Thanks for your post. It helps to confirm that the real problem is idiocy from within and not the terror from without (which could be handled efficiently if the former problem didn't exist). We have the same kind of nonsense here in the States. Britain replicates this and so do numerous continental European nations (Canada too). Holy hell, what will it take? Melbourne gone? New York gone? London or Paris eviscerrated? The self-destruction continues, courtesy of multiculturalism, political correctness, pacifism, self-loathing......... Ah, I need a beer.
Save money. Instead of Air Marshalls why don't airlines put Air Mascots on planes?
A cute little pig would do wonders for the flying public. No security screeners needed. No more delays, except for, ahem, weather related problems. Not much added weight either.
The piggie could be a mascot, walking the aisles. What muslim would blow himself up around something as cute as that? No virgins if he did.
Flying Pig Airlines.
Well, we would have to come up with a better name but you get the idea.
To be safe, when on an Infidel airline Middle Easterners should stick to "Aramaic Aramaic" or, if flying in and out of Italy, "marameo marameo."
Or would they open the door in midflight and throw it off?
Solution:
http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/air-infidel.jpg
I wonder if we will ever learn the subtle particulars of this incident. Were the passengers worked up over nothing or had they tuned into something that was just not right?
Language alone has been over-emphasized here. For one thing these men could be Christian Arab speakers. I would be much more concerned with behavior and demeanor, nervous movement or belligerence. These are the things that should set people's danger sensors off, not just language. Dress is also important. If they were speaking Arabic in friendly, casual tones at normal volume, why should any reasonable person be terror-struck?
Don't get me wrong. I think anything we can do as a nation and as individuals to make Muslims feel uncomfortabe and unwelcome in our country is a good thing at this point. Separationism is the only alternative to much darker choices. But we should not need to lose our heads over exposure to people speaking in a foreign tongue-- any attempted 9/11 repeat could involve attackers fluent in Spanish, Russian or Hindi. Or English.
sheikyermami - that's another cartoom muslims will protest.
It's great.
pimf - cartoon
Take a small voice recorder with you and record the conversation, discreetly.
Then there will be a record of what was being said if there is a dispute like this that ends up in court.
Sheik is right. They are everywhere, in all the wrong jobs:airports and also the tax department.
Unfortunately they have all the moronic leftoids helping them, including some churches here.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22333103-661,00.html
and this:
Check out "Jesus Bin Laden" (puke time!)
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/eating_ourselves_alive/
"Or would they open the door in midflight and throw it off?"
Posted by: Borg [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 29, 2007 10:37 PM
----------------------------------------------
Sorry, dude, that only works with C-17s and C-130s. You see, when while transporting a Jihadi from Gitmo to the ME, and while over the Atlantic Ocean, he/she has a "SES" (Sudden Explosion Seizure). The aft loading ramp is opened, and Jihadi "jumps" out of the Infidel military aircraft.
Problem solved. Won't be fighting this Achmed again in Afghanistan/Pakistan/Iraq/Syria/Iran/Eqypt...
Have a great Jihad-free flight in the United States.
lycaste wrote:
"Language alone has been over-emphasized here. For one thing these men could be Christian Arab speakers."
Really? With the exception of Robert, I didn't think there were many of them left around.
Ataa,
Go back to you master, Fibraham Ibe at CAIR BABIES INC. (AKA Taqqiya-R-Us). Your annoying indignation over the non-PC behavior of one passenger is so pathetic when compared to the lives lost so far to you Jihadist in your Global bid for Conquest, Sharia, Dhimmitude and Jizya. You should thank your stars no interment camps have been created so far. After all, it would be cheaper to pay for those and the post war reparations then dealing with one nuclear crater where a city once was. You should thank the well-educated bloggers on sites like this one for allowing the airing of and discussion of reasonable ideas to deal with you Jihadist, so that we can remain a True Civilization.
ICAREDOYOU… Welcome to Jihad Watch, I also recommend checking out its sister site Dhimmi Watch. It’s very revealing as to the length our supposed leaders have gone to accommodate the Mohammedan. Let me just say Pres. Bush coined the phrase “Religion of Peace” tm and the cynical laughter that follows it.
Also to my fellow posters, Remember CAIR is sending Trolls like Ataa to elicit hyperbolic responses or just plain post them on their own, so they can be used against Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald.
This is my first ever post - I hate to swim up stream as I usually agree with most folks on this site. But come on - just because they were speaking Arabic. I have to admit, if I was on that plane - I would be pretty ticked off that my flight got canceled (or delayed until the next morning).
Posted by: ICareDoYou
***
Well, if I'd been a passenger, I might have been willing to give a pass to a family (dad, mom, 2.3 kids, elderly grandma) traveling with a stroller, 2 mouse ears hat souvenirs, and a dog eared "Cat in the Hat" -- even if they were speaking Arabic.
But if the article is to be believed, this situation involved only men, 6-7 of them, traveling together, speaking Arabic. Call me an islamophobe, but that's just too many red flags for my comfort. Sure, they could be innocent as newborn babes. But if they are, they are also as naive as infants to not realize that they would attract suspicion given the current world situation.
I'm also left with a couple of questions. For one thing, how did the passenger(s) know the men were speaking Arabic? Me, I could say they "look Middle Eastern," but disguishing spoken Arabic from amongst the host of other languages used in the Middle East (Farsi, Urdu, Turkish, etc.) isn't a skill I've ever developed. Well, except for a few Arabic words that have entered the general lexicon, such as jihad, allah akbar, and the like. And for another thing, if they were here on military business, who in our government thought it would be a good idea to put a group of Middle Eastern men together on a commercial flight? Are there no military flights traveling between San Diego and Iraq???
People tend to speak in their native tongues when they are with other people from their homelands. There is nothing wrong or scary about this.
This incident does show that a lot of people are scared about flying. While 9/11 is part of the reason people are scared, and yes it is good to be watchful and alert for any form of terrorism, it is also true that those in power in the United States, and those who stand to profit by it, including the media and Robert Spencer himself, have done their best to keep the people afraid. A British politician when asked how the American politicians(the left, the right, the center) get away with everything they have got away with, he replied saying "by keeping the people in fear and debt".
You need only read the various media stories and indeed this site itself to know the amount of truth in that statement.
Wellington, like most in this hate group, you are also blinded by hatred! It's not just the Muslims that have done some terrible things throughout the history. Read some history and you'll see that Christians have destroyed continents full of aboriginal people (North America, Australia, parts of South America, Africa...), killed millions in countless wars, given the world all types of killing machines, and even nuked other humans.
All haters are alike, be it Bin Laden, or Mr. Spencer, or those of you who are blinded by vengeance and xenophobia. Haters do not see their own faults.
ataa troll, go s*# elwhere!
That's being polite.
Ataa (the ghost Mohammed Atta?) said:
"killed millions in countless wars, given the world all types of killing machines, and even nuked other humans."
I don't even know where to begin here with this troll.
Jeez, where's my bottle of Tylenol?
lycaste said:
"I think anything we can do as a nation and as individuals to make Muslims feel uncomfortabe and unwelcome in our country is a good thing at this point."
Read your own post and then go look at a mirror. You will see a hater there.
All haters are alike, does not matter what religion they claim they belong to. Their religion is 'hate.'
ataa the CAIR troll spews the same moral equivalence, cultural relative, nonsensical garbage trying to equate Christianity with Islamic jihad...what a surprise. I think Mr. Spencer just wrote a book on this subject. You should check it out and tell me where he spews any hatred. Then you should read the Quran and other Islamic holy texts and read the actual hate and mandate for violence against kuffar there.
God Bless you Robert Spencer and JihadWatch
Do you deny that Christians have killed millions? Eradicated natives from thier lands? Enslaved other humans?
So, it's not moral equivalence, it's just fact. It's sad, but humans have done this for long. And you haters are nothing but that, just haters.
To be safe, when on an Infidel airline Middle Easterners should stick to "Aramaic Aramaic" or, if flying in and out of Italy, "marameo marameo."
Posted by: Hugh at August 29, 2007 10:29 PM
Ah, such a lottery is life and people are free to tease others in our free societies - thank God (or the Fates)! And so, fare marameo, are you, perhaps (in spirit if not in fact), a descendant of the Marquise de Merteuil, or maybe the Vicomte de Valmont?
Our paranoia is a result of THEIR ACTIONS. How are we supposed to know which Muslims "appear" moderate or real Jihadists? All its going to take is one time when those suspicious characters are terrorists and thousands could die [or even worse if the plane makes to a Nuclear power plant].
I would rather see the USA a paranoid nation than politically correct soft target.
Ataa said: It's not just the Muslims that have done some terrible things throughout the history...
Ataa, Mr. Spencer's latest book will explain your tu quoque you, in arguments so simple even you could understand.
SoteriA
You are already seeing the USA as a paranoid nation and guess what its still a politically correct soft target.
For this particular incident you should be wondering what it would take to make your airlines more secure and appear more secure since that is the rational , logical solution.
This incident also illustrates that American's probably think that someone who wanted to carry out an attack will hang out with other 6-7 people who look like him and talk loudly in arabic. He will probably be dressed like an afghan fighter and wwear a turban, have an AK - 47 slung over his shoulder and carry a Koran and perform namaz before boarding the plane.
Ridiculous.
ataa said: Read your own post and then go look at a mirror. You will see a hater there.
All haters are alike, does not matter what religion they claim they belong to. Their religion is 'hate.'
ataa:
I supose you have contacted the governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Malasia, UAE, et al. to chastise them for being unwelcoming to people of non-majority religions?
Better yet, why don't you visit those places and then protest those governments so filled with hate? I don't suppose we would ever hear from you again would we?
In the West, we allow idiots like you to say what you want. Funny how Islamic states fail to do the same.
Who is filled with hate?
The person who has been mugged repeatedly and decides to carry a gun, or the repeat mugger?
If you want to see real hate, go to Mecca and criticize Islam---lets see if you are truly stupid or merely wrong headed.
ataa said: Read your own post and then go look at a mirror. You will see a hater there.
All haters are alike, does not matter what religion they claim they belong to. Their religion is 'hate.'
ataa:
I supose you have contacted the governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Malasia, UAE, et al. to chastise them for being unwelcoming to people of non-majority religions?
Better yet, why don't you visit those places and then protest those governments so filled with hate? I don't suppose we would ever hear from you again would we?
In the West, we allow idiots like you to say what you want. Funny how Islamic states fail to do the same.
Who is filled with hate?
The person who has been mugged repeatedly and decides to carry a gun, or the repeat mugger?
If you want to see real hate, go to Mecca and criticize Islam---lets see if you are truly stupid or merely wrong headed.
@aata
Here is the definition of Troll
a newsgroup (this forum) post that is deliberately incorrect, intended to provoke readers; or a person who makes such a post
If you want to discuss the issue you don't post post's like you have done. You are not convincing anyone reading these post you are right, in fact you are probably doing just the opposite. As other posters have pointed out you are the one spouting HATE. Most everything here shows the truth about Islam. Prove by logic, facts or any other means of debate that your point of view is correct. Calling all of us hates is not a debate but a disturbance.
If what I said is not sinking in I guess the next thing from you is threats for our lives or safety. Please notice I have not shown any hate toward you or what you have said, and I am not threading you.
Prov 15:1
A soft answer turns away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
مقاطعة 15:1
ميسر الاجابه يبتعد غضب : ولكن الكلمات المءلمه إثارة الغضب
ataa said: Read your own post and then go look at a mirror. You will see a hater there.
All haters are alike, does not matter what religion they claim they belong to. Their religion is 'hate.'
ataa:
I supose you have contacted the governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Malasia, UAE, et al. to chastise them for being unwelcoming to people of non-majority religions?
Better yet, why don't you visit those places and then protest those governments so filled with hate? I don't suppose we would ever hear from you again would we?
In the West, we allow idiots like you to say what you want. Funny how Islamic states fail to do the same.
Who is filled with hate?
The person who has been mugged repeatedly and decides to carry a gun, or the repeat mugger?
If you want to see real hate, go to Mecca and criticize Islam---lets see if you are truly stupid or merely wrong headed.
Troll-boy Ataa:
Since you obviously can not defend Islam (and the actions of the "profit" Mo) and insist on attacking Christianity (and Judaism), let's see how well CAIR is paying you to defame JW/DW.
1. "killed millions in countless wars..."
Please name them, and, in 500 words or less, provide the underlying cause(s) of said wars. Citations will be checked!
2. "given the world all types of killing machines..." Let's do the the math..
The West: B-52s, F-16s, JDAMS, SLBMs, UAVs
Muslims: Camels, swords, and SEJs (Self-exploing Jihadis)
3. "and even nuked other humans."
Yup, did that. And we have no compunction about NOT doing it again, if necessary.
(You really, really need to read your history about this one. Please, for the sake of humanity, go to your local public library and study the real motives Truman decided to "nuke" Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You will be truly enlightened.)
How does this compare to the Chimp in power there in Iran? Not even close!
Sheik said it right: Go the &^*() somewhere else!
JSobieski wrote:
"Who is filled with hate?"
"The person who has been mugged repeatedly and decides to carry a gun, or the repeat mugger?"
"If you want to see real hate, go to Mecca and criticize Islam---lets see if you are truly stupid or merely wrong headed."
Well put. the recidivism rate of Islamists, based off of the mandates in that god-awful text, the Qur'an, is quite possibly the worst kept secret in the world, with particular relevance to our "staunch friends and allies", Saudi Arabia.
'nuff said.
ataatroll. Hate, racism and bigotry are the big guns of Islamic lunartics. Those word magick tactics no longer work. You are going to have to do more than just accuse. First off you don't know the meaning of the words 'hate', or bigotry. Dictionary deffinition:Hate.
to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest: to hate the enemy; to hate bigotry.
So it is not 'Hate' as you infer it. What you are talking about is 'irrational hate', that does not occur here, except when muslim trolls show up and exhibit their own irrational hate.
Bigotry:
stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
Islam is the guilty party in bigotry. You accept no other creed other than your own, and Islam will murder to maintain it...Bigots.
I can't speak for others, but I detest Islam. I hate Islam with a passion and don't care who knows it. I hate the way Islam destroys lives. I hate Islam for the fraud it is. I hate Islam for it's hegemoney. I hate Islam because it manufactures murderers out of it's 'holy(?) books, and the mouths of it's phony Imams. I hate Islam for it's supremist attitude, it's unearned self righteousness, it's threatening bluster and it's decrepid spokespeople, and it's out and out brutality. I hate Islam for it's false god Allah and the bogus Prophetless mohammad.
None of these 'hates' is irrational because they are based on truth and fact. I can't be a bigot, because I am not stuck on any creed, other than facts and truth. Just the facts as I have stated them. It is Islam, and the bulk of muslims, such as your self, who are the irrational hateing bigots...You fit the profile...Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Hugh -
So, as amply demonstrated by many of the posters here, the ladri have stolen from us not our bicycles but our very culture!
I trust that you follow me, here.
Ignorant and unknowing, uneducated and unaware of the richness, the fullness, of our culture they yet tread blindly to their doom - not knowing that which they defend but merely and inchoately knowing that we possess something worth defending.
How we have failed them!
ataaboy states, "Haters do not see their own faults".
Seems to describe you.
Just after 9/11 family freinds of ours who are of Morroccan Jewish decent went to visit Israel. On their way back they made a stop over in France. At the airport the man was interogated and they found in his possession a book in hebrew written buy a 19 century jewish Iraki scolar. On the front cover was a sketch of the scholar. He had a beard and a turbin. The man was interrogated and strip searched. The poor guy did not know what hit him. Finally his wife overheard the security talking in French the only words she understood from the conversation were Osama bin Laden. It finally hit her what happened. After she finally stopped laughing she went to the security people and explained the situation. After some checking and verification the matter was settled. You would think that they would have been livid at the treatment. However, once the man got over the strip search he saw the humour in the situation. Did he cry out "racial profiling" or sue sue sue.
No. He was grateful that the security was so vigilant and he felt safer about flying. He also got a great story out of it.
Yes it is inconveniant, yes it is a pain in the --- and yes sometimes a flight will be delayed because of paranoia - but you know what - If I get to the other side in one piece because of it. So be it
Hate is a strong word that should be used with prudence. I took the time to look it up and although the dictionary said nothing about an *irrational* character to hatred (just "strong or intense dislike"), that is how many people use the word, myself included. "I hate you" is irrational. "I hate all Muslims" is also irrational in my opinion.
But hate can develop from well-founded as well as irrational fears. It is a basic human property under certain circumstances and to pretend it does not, or should not, exist is infantile and accomlishes nothing. For many in the West, Islam represents a movement, a body of people, that is perilously close on the fine edge between being feared and being hated. In practical terms this distinction may not matter. On the other side, the amount of hatred wielded by a large number of Muslims, even if they are a small group by percentage, is in practice enough for the entire umma.
When you cite the so-called destruction of indigenous peoples of whole continents by Christians, do you stop to consider their motivations? Greedy and mercinary in some cases, but marked by hatred? Christianity seeks the salvation of all human souls; any hatred of "heathens" only detracts from this purpose. What do you have to show for the blood spilled in the name of Islam?
"Hatred" is what you feel when motivation has gone and all other mental expression fails you. It is not based on reason or insight or factual information. You may be mistaking a bit of exuberance here for what seems like hatred in your eyes. Most of us here are trying to understand Islam in some way and fear is indeed one of the justifications.
Im.mad.as.HELL,
I am not threatening you or anyone else. I rather feel threatened by you all. I know that people in this group are able to do terrible things, just like some extremists in the Muslim camp are too.
The haters in this group started to call me a 'troll,' 'troll-boy,' etc. after I posted my opinion.
I have mentioned that people of all faiths have done terrible things. I did not blame any faith itself. But the participants of this group hate Islam from their guts, as one has openly mentioned here. These haters have their mind made up, no kind word or logic will work there. Kind words work for people of conscience, not for hate-filled folks.
The same way that there are some Muslims who do not see their own problems, there are others too who are oblivious of their own stink. This forum is the ultimate proof of that.
"ataaboy states"
I love that reference Champ. Here's hoping it sticks.
ataaboy wrote:
"I know that people in this group are able to do terrible things, just like some extremists in the Muslim camp are too."
Number of beheadings performed by members of the JW community - Zero
Number of beheadings performed by members of the Camp of Islam - Too numerous to mention
ataaboy attempting to prove religious moral equivalence between Islam and all other faiths here at JW - PRICELESS
ataa states, "I did not blame any faith itself".
No? Didn't you just make this statement:
"Do you deny that Christians have killed millions? Eradicated natives from thier lands? Enslaved other humans?"
Sounds like you're blaming the Christian faith to me.
ataa: You are a deeply ignorant human being. Profoundly so. Whenever someone conveys to me that Christians in centuries past have used force or killed in the name of their religion and thus should be just as criticized as Muslims who have slaughtered in the name of their creed, I know I'm dealing with an Artful Dodger. Read the following and learn-------if you can.
First, I'm not a religious man as I've posted here before. I find all religions to be fairy tales and evidence of wishful thinking. But, as with so many of the Founding Fathers of this greatest nation on earth, who themselves privately were skeptics (though not all were), I think religion in public life serves a very useful purpose------------unless it is Islam. A minority of folks can properly direct their life through a philosophical approach, specifically that subdivision of philosophy usually termed ethics. Aristotelian ethics is a fine example here of how one can lead a good moral life without religion (and perhaps metaphysically, not theologically, put forward the hypothesis that a supreme entity exists). Most individuals, however, need morality backed up by some theologically based belief system. I do not write this cynically, only analytically. Whether the philosophical approach is taken or the religious, one or the other (or both) is needed for any society to function in a healthy fashion. The moral decline of modern Western society since the 1960s serves as ipso facto evidence of the validity of this contention.
Second (and please read this most carefully), the theological blueprint of any world religion, Islam excepted, is innocuous to the stability or well being of societies at large, including the polities those societies create. Nonetheless, violators of non-injurious creeds have existed through time. BUT, such persons, when acting in the name of their faith (again, not including Islam), were VIOLATING the tenets of their creed, not fulfilling them. When Muslims kill or maim or severely repress non-believers in the name of their faith, they are FULFILLING the dictates of their religion. You know this or should know it. So, when you call me and others haters for simply pointing out that Islam is possessed of a brutality to its core unlike any other major faith on earth, you reveal more about yourself and your limitations than you realize. Islam is the only religion on earth that calls for its adherents to conquer the world with miltiary force and impose its religious law upon every nation. NO OTHER RELIGION DOES THIS. I, Robert Spencer and so many persons who post on this site point this out and folks like you call us haters. We are not. We are truth tellers.
Third, and finally, look to the founders of each major religion or ethical system. They tell the examiner of such a great deal. Jesus ordered no one to be killed. Nor did the Buddha. Nor Zoroaster. Nor Confucius. Nor Lao-Tze. Nor Aristotle. Nor....... But Mohammed ordered thousands slaughtered. And the Muslim sources laud this. Mohammed also got all kinds of convenient revelations justifying his sexual desires. Can you name for me any major religious founder in history other than Mohammed who sanctioned killing and invoked divine approbation for the gratification of his sexual predilections? You see, Islam is sick in a way that no other major faith is and it starts with its founder. It's awful through and through. Go ahead, prove me wrong with anything I have written above. I dare you.
Oops....I mean attaboy! :)
lycaste: you said, "Christianity seeks the salvation of all human souls"
Surprisingly, all religions, even the one that you all are trashing so much, say the same thing. But the irony is that each of these religions want to do that 'salvation' in its own way!
You asked what do I have to show for the blood spilled in the name of Islam? The answer is "Greedy and Mercinary," Just like you said!
"Jesus or Muhammad, You Decide":
http://www.christring.org/shortseries/jesusormuhammad.htm
ataaboy states, "But the irony is that each of these religions want to do that 'salvation' in its own way!"
Is this the irony you're referring to:
"The God of Jesus Christ sent His Son to die for you. The god of Muhammad demands that you send your son to die for him."
Islam's way of salvation is not for me!! No thank you, ataaboy!!
"descendant...in spirit.…Marquise de....Vicomte de..."
-- from a posting above
Certainly not. In the first place, because powdered wigs would make me sneeze. In the second place, because I've never been able to get the hang of the passé simple. In the third place, because I would look silly in a redingote, even a redingote en (Jean-David) levite or, were I a Madame la Marquise rather than a Monsieur le Vicomte, would look comical and clumsy as I tried to affix a mouche to my cheek. And in the fourth place, because were I even "in spirit" such a descendant I would certainly not choose to be the kind of Frenchman who could flaunt a last name à particule. Google “I Am An American Day” and “Hugh Fitzgerald” for further proof.
As for ladri di biciclette, some of those sympathetic and desperate ladri are able to peddle those bicycles right up into, and then across, a sky backlit by the moon, as in that scene in “Miracolo a Milano” — a scene, incidentally, shamelessly copied, without attribution, in “E.T.”
As for the other losses you refer to, losses that go far beyond bicycles built for one or two, that’s another and more painful story. Woe is you, woe is me, woe are all God’s chillun-- if they only knew.
Mr. Ataa -- You must understand that many people become rather viscerally upset by repeated and widespread murder, mayhem, rape, arson, child molestation, and robbery, all done in the name of your god and your prophet, who himself performed these actions and is yet held up as the "perfect man" by you and your coreligionists. Civilized people don't like these behaviors -- we call them "crimes" -- and we resent their importation into our communities under the cloak of religious obligation.
People of good will, who are nonviolent themselves, can justifiably become disturbed by Koranically-inspired campaigns of intimidation and fearmongering against them. Note that the reaction of good-willed, civilized people is, at its harshest, to call you "Troll-boy;" the reaction of your coreligionists to criticism is threats of murder and actual murder. You tell me who should feel "threatened," Ataa; you, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali? You, or Salman Rushdie? You, or Wafa Sultan, or Danish cartoonists, or Aramaic scholars, or even ordinary women daring to walk to the grocery store without stifling, choking, dirtying headwraps in communities all over Europe?
Why are you "threatened"?
attaa -
You wrote:
But the participants of this group hate Islam from their guts
Oh yes, I, at the very least do hate Islam. I hate Islam with a passion. I hate everything that Islam stands for. I hate its intolerance, its bigotry, its hatred of women-kind, its hatred of gays, its hatred of democracy, its hatred of freedom, its hatred of Christians and all other religions. I hate its supremacism and I hate its masochism. I hate its denial of all the freedoms that we in the West have fought long and hard to achieve for our peoples. I hate its inability to compromise and I hate its inability to admit that it could, in even the slightest sense, be wrong. I hate its arrogance and its pride and its singular lack of humility and its bald assertions about morality without proof. I hate its certainty of the rightness of its faith and the denial of all other faiths. I hate its stupid viewpoint of a vengefull and active God where we have moved on and developed and have had revealed to us new concepts of God that Islam seems completely unable to accept.
I hate that Islam seems stuck in the dark ages of mankind - ages of retribution without forgiveness. I hate that Islam is nothing more than a religion of vengeance and tribulation and violence - see Iraq, Iran, India, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia (and other countries).
But most of all, I hate that Islam seeks the destruction of me and mine either by killing or by subservience to its false ideal and its false God. Religions are not all equal - some religions worship things and ideals that should not be named and Islam is, regrettably, one of them.
I know Evil and Devil worship when I see it. Islam is deeply evil and follows, as its prime precept, the works and voices of the Devil - in my opinion. So, I hate Islam. For you to say that I, and others, should not so hate is completely illogical and as arrogant as Islam is: it merely demonstrates the depth of your own depravity.
@aata
When you use the phrase "extremist Muslim's" I call them "good Muslims" based upon the teaching of the Koran. They are doing and acting just as they have been told by what it says and what the imam's teach. The vast majority of Muslims are just trying to live a quite peaceful life. They don't like what the good Muslims are saying but they are not saying that it is wrong. Allah is all judge (for non-Muslims) with no mercy (unless you are a Muslim). Islam at it's core offers not hope to mankind only death, pain and judgment. Muslims don't even know if they will be allowed into heaven even if they do everything that they are told. Exception for jihad's, they will allowed
and have many virgins to boot. This to me is perverse and appeals to the base nature of man.
Christianity is just the opposite. It's teachings are about a man who showed the love of God by dying. Not only that he told everyone he would die and rise from the dead. And he did. A good Christian does not wish to kill non-Christians. To counter your point about what Christians did in the past. I would argue that they were not real Christians and they were definitely not following Jesus teachings. When I use the word 'hope' I need to define it, 'hope' according to the bible is not wishful thinking but absolute trust that God is in control and relationship with him is as an adopted son.
This is why a cling to the true and living God and his Son Jesus the Christ(Messiah) and hate the false teachings and god of Islam. I hope you will consider what I have said because Jesus died for you as well. And offers forgiveness of sin and eternal life no stings attached.
Matt 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mark 10:45
For even I, the Son of Man, came here not to be served but to serve others, and to give my life as a ransom for many.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
مات مات 40/12
كما كان لليونان ثلاثة ايام وثلاث ليال في البطن ضخم للأسماك ، حتى ابن رجل ستكون ثلاثة ايام وثلاث ليال في قلب الأرض.
مارك 10:45
حتى انا ، ابن الانسان ، جئنا الى هنا ليس ليخدم بل لخدمة الآخرين ، وإعطاء حياتي فدية للكثيرين.
الرومان 6:23
للاجور الذنب هو الموت ، لكن هدية مجانيه من الله الحياة الابديه من خلال يسوع المسيح ر
I hate the Koran's terroristic intolerance, and I hate the Hadiths' glorification of a pedophile warlord ands his cruelties, perversions and revenge fantasies.
And I hate sheep's eyeballs being considered a meal.
But I love freedom of thought, the liberation of men and women, the unchaining of all slaves and the tolerance of all modes of life, and I love the open-ended psychological, scientific, philosophical and spiritual development of the non-Islamic world.
Islam is a cage.
I hate cages.
I'm such a hater.
an honest question to "Rev." Jim Sutter ("ataa"):
Don't you have better things to do in life? what's this obsession with Spencer and JW?
I Really, really think you should get some laid dude.
I have read the comments from a couple of folks here, the one that really bugs me is Atta...
"All religions have done bad things" yada yada..
Ok we can't do anything about those now they were long in the past talking about the crusades and other Religious wars is ridiculous, and not helpful. It is called blame deflection.
My question is: What group of religious fanatics since the 1970's (almost 40 years) are responsible for more death and destruction in the name of their religion?
Jews? nope never heard of Jewish fanatics running around quoting their holy book and screaming God is great as they blow themselves up in a crowd.
Jews have killed their share of Muslims, but in defense of land NOT because their religion demands it.
Christians? Nope.
Buddhists? Nope
The church of scientology? other than killing my belief that Tom Cruise was actually cool, NOPE.
I'll take Muslims for a thousand Alex......
DING DING DING We have a winner......
Muslims have to bring their radical element under control, or else the war to end all wars will be fought, the bible says it will.
IMO this WOT is just a start, eventually the Politically Correctness of nations will give way to truth first... then we fight a religious war for real. It's coming.
Buongiorno, Hugh -
I'm just some sort of cultural tramp but I do agree, Zavattini and Vittorio de Sica produced a masterpiece - a silverscreen icon.
Pity that the powder might make you sneeze for the full-bottomed is my favoured apparel - in wig-wear!
Didn't this film take the Grand Prix at Cannes (before it was the Palme d'Or)?
Well, never having seen a picture of you I cannot say that you would look foolish in a great-coat - perhaps you would look silly in its frock-coat version but even there I think that the style might just suit you (and me) for it does flatter the male figure, don't you know.
The 'simple past'! Ha, would that I could live in the simple past. Perhaps the pluperfect would be plus-perfect and, therefore, more desirable.
That idiot wouldn't know "hate" if it bit him in the ass, especially since his own hypocrisy shows.
Actually he sounds more like a freshman "peace studies" rookie freshly indoctrinated from such notable institutions as berzerkely, but it, like him, doesn't matter.
We don't "hate" anyone...we DO however hate what we're forced to become, because of such elements as him. If calling a spade a spade like we do is what he calls "hate" let that stand as his testament, and history will judge us in the end-that's why I'm not the least bit worried what some little neanderthal troll wishes to provoke.
He doesn't need laid...he needs something a lot more important-a life...that way he can accept reality for what it is, and islam is NOT.
;-)
The trolls weapon is empty-don't give him any ammo & he can't fire.
Ataa,
(my bolding) That's one reason people here focus on Islam. Here's a second reason people focus on Islam. Muhammad said, That bit of gentleness from Muhammad can be found here in the most canonical of hadith collections, Bukhari. And here's a third reason people focus criticism on Islam:The foregoing passages come from here.Robert Spencer wrote:
A fourth reason people focus criticism on Islam is that since 9/11/01, thousands have died in Islamic terror attacks all over the globe. See here.
But perhaps the biggest reason many people focus criticism on Islam is that it seeks to spread the rule of Islamic law all over the globe, and subordinate non-Muslims to the status of debased, second-class citizens. See Qur'an, Chapter 9, verse 29:
"The church of scientology? other than killing my belief that Tom Cruise was actually cool, NOPE"....HAAAA!!!!!
Hugh -
And surely you have no need of a beauty spot - even on the fly, as it were, for I am sure that you are handsome chap and that those of the feminine persuasion swoon at your feet!
Home run, traeh! The Qur'an is it's own worst enemy.
I know this is ten hours after Robert posted this thread but in case anyone else is still paying attention I want to share something I posted on LGF in 2003:
#66 Tasty Beverage 9/11/2003 3:04:28 pm PDT
The first time I got on a plane after 9-11 was the following January, going to Vegas. At
the gate they had the new "secondary" security or whatever it's called set up at a table
and they had everybody line up before we could board, and they selected a few people to
search by walking up and down the line looking at everyone.
They pulled out a man who looked to be in his 60s, white man, silver hair, very expensive
suit, briefcase. They made him take off his shoes and jacket, open the briefcase,
everything.
And they let the three guys in front of me, who were clearly from India or Pakistan, "sail
past" with nary a word.
(btw--I feel really bad for Hindus who get searched)
Those three might have been citizens, but to hear their accents they sure as hell weren't
born here. But security picked the dangerous, threatening grandpa, because you never know when those affluent grandpas are going to go on a rampage and hijack a plane.
Comforting, eh?
------------
That was 2003.
...and one more thing for our troll, as he will be hearing it a LOT more often in the years to come.
LAN ASTASLEM!
Actually, to be completely accurate, the experience I just mentioned was early 2002, but I posted it on LGF in 2003.
So we were already f**** in 2002.
lycaste: I posted the dictionary meaning of the word hate. You are right about the word irrational, it did not include that, I did.
There is a difference between hating something because of it's disagreable nature, and hating something because one is delusional, wrong headed, or just plain mean. If you have no rational reason to hate something, and do it anyway, that is irrational hate. This is the difference between hating Islam and not hating muslims. In my view it is rational to hate Islam as the destroyer of men, but not hate the destroyed. My whole point of view would fall if I hated muslims, but I don't. Having said that, there are some who's behavior and ideas I intensly dislike, but they get that from Islam, which I hate. Those who hate with no solid reason to do so, are irrational. It's as simple as that.
I can't believe what a bunch of nervous nellies
are posting on this sight. So they were speaking
Arabic, so what? If people speaking Arabic getting
on a airplane scares you then please stay home and
don't mess up my flight plans.
We now have to cater to the lowest common
denominator these days. How pathetic.
Yup, on time too since henny penny didn't fly with
me!
Some Hash House Harriers got arrested recently
trying to mark a course to run on with flour
(because it's more biodegradable than chalk).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/25/nyregion/25beer.html?_r=2&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
Instead of approaching the individuals and finding
out what the hell they were doing they call the
cops and shut the store down. Sheesh.
It's sort of "flight 77 behavior" as opposed to
"flight 93 behavior" and we are all worse off
because of its proliferation.
the mere fact that we haven not been hit since nine eleven is a miracle. if people are nervous of hearing arabic spoken by men well its natural for them to be so. it will get worse if we get hit again, and muslims might just have to leave for their own lands if they feel unsafe. so far the west has shown so much restaint, but the tension is there.
Whatdafuq has a point. In addition to speaking Arabic -- one of the ugliest languages to be forced to listen to, a particularly unfelicitous combination of infant babble syllables and coughing -- what else were they doing? How were they dressed? Were they wearing culturally inappropriate male dresses, throwing down carpets to chew, and screeching Allahu Akbar, or were they dressed in business suits and carrying briefcases and talking quietly among themselves? In other words, did these Muslims respect our culture? If the latter, and no typical outraged-Muslim-violent-intimidation-response occurred, then perhaps this whole business IS just so much nonsense.
But on the other hand, the "lowest common denominator" -- a category Muslims despise, signing on as they have to a frozen heirarchy of violence and domination -- has actually proved to be one of America's strengths, and we can't discard their point of view. All those lowly immigrants who fled tyrannies and despotisms, who learned the language, who sent their children to school not to parrot a holy book but to learn the world, who finally realized beating their wives did not produce a happy family -- all of them, and their sense of danger, might still be worth listening to.
No Zena, I don't think it's a miracle. I think
it's because of aggressively going after them
and not waiting for another 9/11. It's because
we're not treating this as a law enforcement
exercise. There are things we know about-- killing
them with drone aircraft, throwing them in Gitmo,
attacking their "charities", evesdropping on their
communication-- and there are things we don't.
One thing that is not responsible for us not
getting hit again is any of the countermeasures
the TSA has come up with. Taking off my shoes
and having my 6oz tube of toothpaste confiscated
even though it had less than 2oz of actual
toothpaste in it have NOTHING to do with it.
This faux vigilence of nervously complaining
about Arabic speakers does nothing either. It
may be natural for some people to get nervous.
Whatever. But don't foist your nervousness on me!
Don't impact my day because you can't take it.
Stay home. Or take some valium.
ah, narcissism at its finest.
lol
moooslims in America, take note: we know your goal and your M.O.
We know all believing moooslims have the same goal of global sharia.
We know izlam is not a religion of peace, but a religion of pieces, and hasn't been hijacked by extremists who are practicing some warped version of the cult.
We know there's no such thing as a "moderate" mooslim; there's just mooslims. The as-of-yet non-violent ones are simply less courageous than the violent jihadists, but still help the jihad by producing more mooslims, and providing the phony peaceful pool the murderers can swim within and get cover. Hence no outcry against the violence and no help in shutting it down.
We know you're planning to take over America through a combination of demographics and intimidation by terror, lawsuits, phoney victimization and accusations of izlamophobia, etc.
We know it all! Unfortunately for you, unlike Europe, Canada, Australia, and other nations, you will NEVER be able to take America! You bit off more than you can chew trying to take us!
Maybe you don't know us. Most Americans are fiercely patriotic, freedom-loving, independent, and well-armed and willing to defend our freedom. Eventually you will awaken the sleeping giant of American citizens who will then defend their freedom!
...Ataa has gone back to the mosque to get some instruction from his Islamic Slavemaster Cleric...he has discovered some infidels who seem to know the truth about Islam...ANd Muslims hate the truth , especially when the infidels know it....
Ban Muslim Immigration...
Miracle? Partly, true but there are a lot of people watching for this sort of hit in the making; and I am not convinced that a serious attempt (I don't mean plan -- I mean serious military style attempt) has yet been made in the US.
Traveling in the circles I do, I hear Arabic a lot so that doesn't bother me.
In this case, I would look at other behavior -- body language says many things about intent.
For example, I sat across a guy on a train once who was reading Sura 9 from a quran while the automated messaging system on the train warned of suspicious behavior etc.
He was wearing the typical muslim garb and did mutter the nefarious "allah akbar" phrase as he closed his quaran.
If I had felt for an instance that this guy was a threat, I would have been at his throat like a wolf -- damn the the law -- damn protocol -- and damn PC/multiculturalism.
The fact is, I "KNEW" he was not a threat somehow and simply smiled as we made eye-contact.
Maybe it was simply "battle-field-instinct" that kicked in -- I don't know; but I knew this guy posed no threat at the moment dispite outside appearaces and behavior.
Moral of story; if you don't like what is going down -- get off the plane; but try not to delay the flight.
If you are on public transportation and things go "bad"; do what you need to do.
Unfortunately, thanks to islam and not paranoia, you can expect more incidents like the one on this thread.
WOW - got more of a response than expected for my first ever post :)
Glad you did not call me a TROLL - I did not even know what one was before - learn something every day.
Trust me I'm on your side - I just personally would not have been too freaked out with this flight situation. I fly every week - so maybe I'm overly sensative to delayed flights - drive me crazy.
Two other points - I'm not a PC guy at all - I tell it like it is. Also if I was on the plane and it blew up - I don't know if I would be ticked off or not. I am a Christian and 100% sure of where I will spend eternity. Don't get me wrong - I love my life and I'm not expecting to get 41 vigins in heaven, but I do expect it to be a better place than the world we live in today.
God Bless America
sheik yer'mami -- That'll teach me not to post while under the influence of extra-strength Benadryl and on my way to bed.
10 percent of 2 billion is 200 million, etc.
(I'm half-zonked this morning but I think I can hear you laughing...)
cerebate says-
People tend to speak in their native tongues when they are with other people from their homelands. There is nothing wrong or scary about this.
This incident does show that a lot of people are scared about flying. While 9/11 is part of the reason people are scared, and yes it is good to be watchful and alert for any form of terrorism, it is also true that those in power in the United States, and those who stand to profit by it, including the media and Robert Spencer himself, have done their best to keep the people afraid. A British politician when asked how the American politicians(the left, the right, the center) get away with everything they have got away with, he replied saying "by keeping the people in fear and debt".
You need only read the various media stories and indeed this site itself to know the amount of truth in that statement.
People speaking in their native tongues never used to bother others. Arabs have changed that. That is their fault, not ours. Only the brainwashed don't react now.
9/11 is part of the reason people are scared, the other part is the constant threats coming from muslims. The videos promising big surprises don't make people think they are sending a nice gift. The threats to kill millions makes the talk by the politicans that you are more likely to get struck by lightening seem foolish.
And beyond ALL of that, the history of islamic conquest and destruction is a fact, to be ignored at your own peril and the peril of your children and grandchildren. That's both ancient history and recent history. Violence has been a part of islam from the start and there is no reason to think it will change.
The history of islam is conquest. Both by sweeping in and destroying or by immigrating and becoming a majority and causing civil war that leads to countries breaking up or becoming completely islamic by murdering the minorities or subjucating them. Read some factual history. Something with names and dates, not Armstrong fantasy.
cerebate- performing namaz? Going over to the dark side?
ataa- If all islam wants is to save souls, why is it that only muslims are allowed to handle a true koran? Why does allah put a seal on non-believers hearts so that they do not know the 'truth'? If allah really wanted all people to know islam why doesn't he just put it in their hearts? Islam is a sham. And if the koran is perfect then allah can't add.
"We now have to cater to the lowest common
denominator these days. How pathetic"....from posting above.
I know the feeling, since that is the lowest common denominator USERNAME on record.
ataa, No one is afraid of you and your death cult, aware does not equate fear. You cowards have no problem killing children(hell, you use the name of a killer), I'd take my kid off of that flight too. But, if I didn't have jr w/ me, I'd stay on board and stare you down for the entire flight, one wrong move and it would be showtime. OH YEAH!!!
Somebody wrote a great letter to a newspaper, I was surprised it was printed. It was a short question, I wish I remember the guys name so he could get credit. He asked "If islam is a religion of peace, why are most terrorist named mohammed?" Great question, I wonder why that is?
B I N G O!
I will try to refrain from the word hate. It is a bad word. I dislike that word.
Posted by: MZ
I agree. I hardly use it myself, unless I am pointing out the continuous misuse of it by Islamic antagonists, ataa in this case. The use of word magick, by twisting the meanings of words to fit an agenda, is a tactic, used by people with dubious intent. I will attempt to put my foot right in the middle of that whenever I see it...have a good day.
hey Champ, if all you can do is make ad hominems
then please go elsewhere.
whatdafuq...Champ has earned her right to post here by long term participation. You have not...possibly it is you who should move along...
MZ...Thanks :)
....Hey Ackmed wanna have some fun with the infidels?
....Yeah Ali, I do....how do we pull it off?...
.....say Alllllaaaah Akkkbarrrrrrrr and start mumbling
....kool , look at them squirmmmm
....quickly now,,,put you hands in your pocket and act like you are trying to get something out....allllaaaahh akkkkbarrrrrrr...
.....oh oh, what do we do now? here comes security...
....dont worry,,, just start ranting and raving and threaten to sue everyone......alllllahhhhh akkkkbarrr..
....hey it is working the infidels are fearful.....allllahhhh akkkbarrrrrrr...
hey swami, ad hominems are not "participation".
In fact, they're a sign of frustration at not being
able to participate.
Attack what I'm saying but don't resort to ad
hominems. If all someone can do is name call then
there are more appropriate places for them. Like
DailyKos.
Nothing will be the same again, will it!
Nothing will be the same again, will it!
Not going anywhere fellas! Grow up!
duh_swami, I've been posting here for nearly two years, so get used to it. If you don't like my input then don't read it. I don't read yours.
Champ- duh-swami was defending you.
Well, I for one trust the instincts of san diegans over that of self-serving pompous narcissistic "business travellers" who piss moan and complain about being late on their flights ANY day...
...it's a HUGE military town, most of them were probably military and/or military family (anyone who's been through there knows this), and those folks know "speaking" their native lingos isn't/wasn't THE end all...it's simply one more of the "straws that broke the camels back" is all, and it probably added up with multiple factors than just foreign language use.
While our new troll may make smart observations on other factors like TSAs uselessness and suggestions (actually the best thing to do is let everyone carry firearms on board and that'll end the problem fast, and cheaply too), all I see out of that cut under that nose is "me...me...me...I...I...I"
Reminiscent of that movie character in the movie "for love of the game"...the overzealous yankees fan in the airport bar...lol
THAT's what's pathetic.
A couple of the posters here showed how they evaluate, and they're right...only I go further (works every time, too)
...speaking their native tongue doesn't bother me (although speaking their native tongue, and expecting me to accommodate THEIRs will meet nasty resistance...but that's another story)...
...speaking it, and turning (aka, shiftyeyes) to look at all the other passengers` reactions every time they utter something isn't "casual speak"- it's evaluation, by the speaker, and for a reason...and it's not out of fear either...especially if they KEP on speaking it.
(those that do so once, look, and tone it down show accommodation on their part, and are considered normal travellers and thus, no complaints)
Best thing to do...it's what my family and I do when we travel...silence & stares.
Look RIGHT AT them (especially as a group if possible), total silence, no reaction, no smiles, no nothing...just stare at them...and make sure they KNOW you're looking right at them,
sunglasses enhance the effect, too-makes 'em guess.
(especially when you're wearing full length trenchcoats,
have your cell phones and all small items in your inside pockets-forcing the pocket to bulge, making it look like you have something intimidating under there)
...only one type of person does that- cops, bounty hunters, special forces, military, DHS, ICE, Customs, or someone that spells trouble for THEM)
...two or more of us intenisifies the effect.
We make sure we DON'T have military haircuts too, as that tends to think us as air marshalls,
so it makes them guess...
that guess turns to paranoia, and they shut the hell up fast...REAL fast.
Last time I travelled east CA-NY (multi-stopover trips) we got tagged every time...no biggie to us, at MSP we were told we looked like WWE wrestlers (lol, as if),
at DTW they told us we looked like mob hit men, intimidating as hell (LMAO, yeah right!)...
we had several durkadurkas travel with us, and they tried to pull that SD shit too...yapping and watching peoples reaction, but the more they saw us sitting there staring back without reaction, save that of looking at each other, then turning back to stare at them again (same fashion the terrorists most-likely used on 9/11) tends to turn the tables on them...
their yapping quickly dwindles, and after a moment they sit down, tone down their voices, and enjoy the ride like everyone else...acting civil.
The ones that shut up abruptly though, and start sweating...those are the ones you want to watch.
But that aside...I trust SDers any day, especially compared to some of the narcissistic "travellers" I've contended with (and enjoyed parking with ease)...like those that are more concerned with their almighty self-important schedule than they are about the safety of the plane and everyone aboard it. If your schedule is THAT damned important, YOU stay home...and use go-to meetings online instead of being a self-serving pompous jackass to everyone else and cluttering up the friendly skies which don't need ANYONE THAT damned badly.
IF YOU SEE SOMETHING, SAY SOMETHING...and IF SOME SELF-SERVING JACKASS COMPLAINS...SCREW THEM!
lol
OOPS! Borg, thanks for pointing that out! I'm an idiot for missing that!
Sorry duh_swami! I've got a ton of work on my desk this morning and I'm thoroughly distracted, so I'm afraid I read your post in haste. Forgive me, my friend!
"...speaking their native tongue doesn't bother me (although speaking their native tongue, and expecting me to accommodate THEIRs will meet nasty resistance..." Posted by: jcom972
You wouldn't like Quebec, then. ; )
It's ok, champ...we all caught it, and understood it was probably nothing...we're all bad about that at times...lol
Thanks! :)
Hearing Arabic spoken now has the same effect on me as that distinctive box-cutter click, and I don't blame the person who took their child off the plane. I am constantly watchful when travelling, and I would have definitely wanted to know who these chaps were.
If they were in fact travelling on government / military business, someone perhaps could have thought to provide them with a minder who could help with any misunderstandings, even if it was only up to the gate.
Someone should have thought that they would probably lapse into their mother-tongue at some point during the journey, and that having a friendly man in a US uniform there could help to reassure other passengers that all was well.
Hopefully, this was just a silly situation which could have been avoided with a bit of forethought, and which will not re-occur.
I really, really want to use a quote from the late Admiral William Halsey concerning the Japanese language and apply it to Arabic, but I won't, for now.
lol, Josephine...you're right...they have nothing I'd be envious of anyway. I've been there...ONCE (which was all that was needed...they were glad when I left, especially the que`becois nationalists, lol)
Actually, THEY wouldn't like ME, either...lol
Several of them (though a small minority of the total of the otherwise cordial folks travelling here) tried that crap...and promptly got met with overwhelming hostility (way more than just me) and learned fast it doesn't work here. (actually, most of them coming here know the "when in Rome" bit, and are no problem at all...just a handful of them try that-they don't get away with that here like they do in Canada)...but that's another story altogether...lol
hey jcom, not suprisingly I disagree. I don't think
I'm being narcissistic. It is someone who expects
an entire planeload of people to accomodate his or
her irrational fears that is narcissistic. "I'm
afraid therefore no one can fly and we all have to
spend the night here." Since when did the whims
of children start being the determining factor?
I used to live in SD for over 13 years (Solana
Beach, La Jolla, PB, North Park). I used to work
for a defense contractor there. The thing is, these
Arabic speaking men were working for the military!
That's why there were in SD. Trying to help.
I'm glad you give a nice cold stare to some guy
trying to make the nervous nellies lose their cool.
Good for you. That is an appropriate response. If
they throw their rugs down and start praying I'd
stand in front of them and comment about, "yes
fellas I know I'm worthy of respect but please
on your feet." Make fun of them! "Hey guys, not
here, in the restroom, please. Larry Craig is
waiting for you." Something like that.
An inappropriate response would be to panic and
do EXACTLY what they want. Mo said, "strike fear
into the hearts of the enemies" and all those
nervous nellies are obliging.
A complaining self-serving jackass? No, I wouldn't
complain. I'd laugh in your face for being such
a baby. "Waaaa! The bad man scared me! Mommy, er
Mr. Policeman, make him stop! Waaa....oops,
need a diaper change."
hey Al-Content. If the person with child was so
uncomfortable then why did he or she get on the
plane? Why not refuse to board as long as the
scary men were also boarding?
If you wanted to know who these chaps were why
would you board a plane with them and only on
the tarmac start throwing a fit? Why not go up
to them and say, "hey! Who are you and what are
you doing?"
You need a friendly man in uniform to reassure
you? Really? Does he tuck you in at night as
well?
This stuff will only stop reoccuring when the
hysterical people demanding to return to the
gate are arrested and forced to spend a night
under observation by a trained psychiatric
professional.
I'm with WTF on this one.
I wouldn't board an airline without a ham 'n cheese sandwich in my coat pocket. I've said it before and I'll say it again: if some muhammadan makes a move to hijack my plane, I will run down the aisle and make a flying leap onto said muhammadans head. I'll slime his face his good with my ham sandwich. He's going to Hell and he knows it.
LOL...case-in-point the air traveler I referred to, who in all likelihood wouldn't be laughing at all in MY face. *WEG*
typical so typical...LOL
True ynke...but better to nail 'em on the ground than have to do so in the air, where it may be too late, where hindsight is irrelevant by then, and the same complainers of being late are then spewing the "woulda, coulda, shoulda" BS in their usual self-righteous indignation...which solves as much of nothing as trolling in this forum does.
oh, I guess I wouldn't be laughing in your face
because you're such a big scary guy...who is
afraid of Arabic speakers. Yea, LOL indeed!!!!
I'd just say wa salam alikum inshallah allah akbar
and that would send you off looking for help. Boo!
Look ace. I am responsible for my own safety. I
don't trust the TSA and the cops are only really
good for filing a report _after_ the fact. If
something doesn't seem right I don't get on the
plane. If I get on the plane and someone from the
group of Arabic speakers starts walking around
changing seats, disrupting things, then I will
defer to the flight attendents for action but will
not hesitate to do the bums' rush.
If people are going to throw hissy fits then they
deserve to be on the "don't fly" list. And they
deserve to be laughed at when they attempt to
throw their hissy fit.
oh, I guess I wouldn't be laughing in your face
because you're such a big scary guy...who is
afraid of Arabic speakers. Yea, LOL indeed!!!!
I'd just say wa salam alikum inshallah allah akbar
and that would send you off looking for help. Boo!
Look ace. I am responsible for my own safety. I
don't trust the TSA and the cops are only really
good for filing a report _after_ the fact. If
something doesn't seem right I don't get on the
plane. If I get on the plane and someone from the
group of Arabic speakers starts walking around
changing seats, disrupting things, then I will
defer to the flight attendents for action but will
not hesitate to do the bums' rush.
If people are going to throw hissy fits then they
deserve to be on the "don't fly" list. And they
deserve to be laughed at when they attempt to
throw their hissy fit.
"nail 'em on the ground"?
So throwing a fit, returing the plane to the gate,
extracting the hysterical moron with child, making
it too late to depart is "nailing 'em on the
ground"?
If it hadn't been past Lindberg Field's curfew
they would've departed with all Arabic speakers
but without the hysterical moron. Had it not
been so late the only person that would've gotten
"nailed on the ground" would've been the
hysterical moron with child. As it was everyone
had to suffer because one one idiot who failed
to properly behave.
Self-righteous indignation? No, it's just plain
old indignation. At the number of morons in this
society who should never leave their house.
Oh, gee...a defense contractor? I didn't know anyone else was as "enlightened".
LOL...you narcissistic nabobs never cease to amuse me...THEY are afraid of ME.
Making fun of them as you suggested makes YOU look as stupid as those you're trying to make fun of, and would get you detained as well...lol
(knock yourself out)...
I don't trust TSA or the cops either, as they're "dial a prayer, hope we come" and slab the aftereffects, better on the ground than in the air...but that's irrelevant...your trolling take IS.
I'm sure the fragger at the start of the war was also "trying to help"...you willing to bet your life on unpredictability, that's your problem...if you simply don't get on the plane if you feel unsafe (implying that you wouldn't say anything to anyone) is not just narcissistic, it's despicable (I doubt even you would stoop so low)...
...and since you're on the chest-thumping kick, I can be the FIRST to tell you ya don't know "whatdafuq" YOU're talking about...
defense contractor?...goodie for YOU
we affectionately knew them as diplo-dink bean-counters at "lowest bidder club".
Obviously the adage "better safe than sorry" is a foreign term to you.
I also lived in SD area. and in CA half my life...BFD!
I was also instructor at NAB CORONADO, not long after 1984 Class 128/Thompson/Fernandez...so?
...and also instructed CI/CT after learning from the best of the best: The Sharkman.
...and earned the term by the durka boys: barq al-jahannam...gee, take a guess why.
Now I hear this crap as I've heard it ad nauseum for decades, only to have it contribute to others' demise because someone DIDN'T speak up.
So if you wish to continue this ignoramic BS, knock yourself out...I find your takes most amusing. It reminds me of a former CINC I used to have to work under (which I retired because of, AND his bi+ch-ass PC wife, too).
People like you get innocent people killed, much like half the POS crap made by the "lowest bidders club" did to my own guys...and screw someones all-important "schedule"...if it's THAT damned important, they'd be taking Air Force ONE.
Champ...that's ok mis-understandings don't count.
Below is my response to him, regarding his response to me, regarding my response, to his response to you. I'm getting confused. He has probably left the property by now but I will post it anyway...Have a good night...
Thanks Borg...
whatdafuq...You don't set the rules...I know you understood what I previously posted...Unless you have some pressing desire to hear it again, enough is enough...I agree with some of what you said on your longer post. But when it comes to your attitude about flying, and paranoid passangers, we part company. It is understandable that you don't want to be delayed, but the safety of the passangers and crew are larger than your personal comfort. And that applies even if it is a false alarm. I don't fly so I have no stake in that end, but I do have a public responsiblity, in the idea that we make it as difficult as possible for terrorists to pull off any plans. Since their favorite weapons seem to be airplanes, and explosives, we shoud be especially
alert in those areas. I know it's a pain, but the airports have the right idea....
"This stuff will only stop reoccuring when the
hysterical people demanding to return to the
gate are arrested and forced to spend a night
under observation by a trained psychiatric
professional" - whatdafuq
Really ? Is that not the sort of thing CAIR want to do ?
However, I don't think the report makes it clear at which point the disembarking passenger became aware of the situation, and that may have only have been after the plane had left the gate. And there were 6 or more in this group, and not everyone will confident in their ability to tackle determined and ruthless opponents in the confines of an airliner, especially with a child in tow. Two of the victims of 9/11 were a mother and her young daughter, heading for Disney Land if I remember correctly. Perhaps the disembarking passenger had them in mind.
And so yes, I think whoever was responsible for putting this group on the flight should have given it a bit more thought, shown some common-sense, and saved all those involved alot of aggravation and wasted time.
I'm sorry, I was away. Did I miss the memo stating that ANYONE should care one iota about whatdafuq's opinion on this matter?
While we are at it, is whatdafuq actually complaining about ad hominem and following them up with references to posters here like this?
"Since when did the whims
of children start being the determining factor?"
and this?
"A complaining self-serving jackass? No, I wouldn't complain. I'd laugh in your face for being such a baby. "Waaaa! The bad man scared me! Mommy, er Mr. Policeman, make him stop! Waaa....oops, need a diaper change."
and yet again this?
"Self-righteous indignation? No, it's just plain
old indignation. At the number of morons in this
society who should never leave their house."
Hmmm. That is curious. Incidentally, has anyone seen GetBornAgain lately? It seems he has conspicuously dropped out of sight, coupled with the simultaneous appearance by the brand spanking new "whatdafuq" (possibly implying what happened?)
Curious indeed. Let me be the first to say, "welcome back" to a seemingly old friend under a different moniker.
GBA,
There is always a chance at redemption here. Unfortunately, you appeared to have started off on the wrong foot yet again.
hey jcom, the mention of working for a defense
contractor was in response to the comment:
"I for one trust the instincts of san diegans
...it's a HUGE military town"
That is I was trying to say that I know about
people that live in SD and I know about the
military culture there.
You worked for the Navy? Ohh, an instructor! Those
who can't teach. The sharkman? Oh my, I didn't
realize I was conversing with such a celebrity.
Look, quit with the self-aggrandisement. Stop and
think about what you're saying. You are defending
someone who irrationally overreacted. And you say
that it's OK because scary Arabic speakers were
involved. In your eyes is there no limit to
overreaction when scary Arabic speakers are
involved? If not then you are living at the mercy
of idiots and morons. Or your an idiot and moron
yourself, an idea which I have not yet discounted.
You obviously don't have mirrors in your house.
Try looking in one.
I'm no celebrity...but my former boss IS (ya might have seen him on FoxNews right after 9/11)
ASSumptions are the mother of all F**kups...and you assume a GREAT DEAL.
I defended those folks because of your disparaging narcissistic remarks about them vs your poor putupon all-self-important schedule 9as if YOU are somehow that important), a clear and unmsiatakable sign of malignant narcissism.
Try your projectionistic pahblum on people that you can win over...like the "dailykook"sters.
People like you who THINK they know are an insult to those of us who DO, and have taught the course in it .
hi awake. My comments about people who should
never leave the house are about the hysterical
moron who forced a plane to return to gate, not
about a poster here. Ditto about the whims of
children. Children are scared of the bogeyman.
And the bogeyman is now, apparently, someone who
speaks Arabic.
The diaper change comment was pretty ad hominem
though. Unnecessary. But I'm not attacking names.
Like "asleep" instead of "awake" or "chump"
instead of "champ", that kind of thing. Let's
leave the moniker out of the topic of conversation,
ok?
You are not forced to care (one iota or not) about
anything I say. But please do respond to what I
say if you feel compelled to respond.
Do you feel that this person overracted? Should
this person have refused to board in the first
place or is it OK for he or she to get on the
plane and then, while on the tarmac, throw a fit
and force the plane back to the gate?
Is there any limit over which some random person
in an airport can become hysterical that would
cause you to say that their behavior was beyond
acceptable?
At SJC a while back someone witnessed a guy open
a card and saw something fall out of it. Seems it
was a "I'm going to miss you honey" card and it
had those stars and moons sparkley crap in it.
The other person thought it was anthrax, threw
a fit, and caused the entire plane and all
passengers to get a visit by HAZMAT.
When does this behavior reach the level of
punishable false alarm?
ok jcom, let's see...foxnews after 9/11...you
worked for the assistant secretary to the deputy
fire chief of manhattan. I mean who cares, really?
Is this a forum to pump up one's ego and invent
heroic histories to live vicariously through or is
it a forum to discuss stories from jihadwatch?
Let's discuss the story from jihadwatch, ok?
I would like you to respond to my statement that it
is not me that's the narcissist, it's the hysterical
moron who threw a fit and caused the entire plane
to return to the gate that's the narcissist.
Everyone must indulge this moron and his or her
irrational fears. Everything must stop when this
moron says so. That is the behavior of a spoiled
child. That is the narcissist. Me, me. I'm scared
so nothing else matters.
I don't indulge spoiled children or adults who
act like them. I'd like to know why you do.
Hmmm...speaking as if said person was actually THERE (somehow I seriously doubt it, as I doubt any of us were there, either...and based on the limits of news reports, which aren't complete...yet some assume it's overhysteria, when they too don't know)...such classic, especially coming from a troll whose colorfully metaphoric screenname required the skill of a 3rd grader to come up with, or that of some "ghetto homey" like tupac or snoopY dogg (and he wonders why he's viewed as one...lol)
It's also funny how I've met many "contractors" who travel extensively, and not a single one acts or speaks in such a manner as this troll has...they just shake their heads and remain silent (thus avoiding their foot-in-mouth disease, as well as the landmine he just stepped on)...and still doesn't realize it (which rules out high or mid-level contractors).
Ya see, when ya come in here, newb or not, acting like you've been on top of things (as if being a regular all the time), and spout off the first entry that's clearly based on "me...me...me...I...I...I" as if it all about YOU, expect to be in the hole ya dug right off the bat.
All the pseudo-analytical afterthoughts now brought to bear are already rendered irrelevant as it's no longer an effective escape clause from THE core entry, the first one uttered, in clear signs of malignantly narcissistic fashion...and have been marginalized as secondary to the crux before it's even uttered.
(hint: you're in a hole...stop digging)
While I DON'T regret to inform said troll of the bad news that the world doesn't revolve around him, I DO regret being as civil to said troll, as I normally try to be to everyone, despite the onslaught of diatribe emanating from said troll in the first place.
After all, he brought it all up to begin with, and wonders why the nasty, and well-deserved parking, he got in the end...yet doesn't understand why.
Classic trolls.
LMAO, OMG...this troll's getting really hilarious!
Ummm, NooooooOOOOOO, not those guys on FoxNews...
THIS GUY...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d1/RogueBW.jpg/180px-RogueBW.jpg
Say hello to "The Sharkman"...aka,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Marcinko
...and I look JUST like him, hair and all.
I should know what I'm talking about, UNlike our dear newest troll of the day.
I was also one of his Doppelgangers, and a member of a group we affectionately called RED CELL.
*WEG*
But at least we agree on one thing...he doesn't "indulge in spoiled children"...he just indulges in himself, which is what his crossing the trip wire of reaction in this thread is all about.
Thanks for proving my point of malignant narcissism.
;-)
Whatdafuq, fear of death and the fear of being maimed are not manifestations of narcissism. It's called self preservation.
Amen, Pelayo...it's also known by an even bigger factor: COMMON SENSE
jcom, I don't really care who you worked for or
what you did. OK? Whether you're a 4 star admiral
or a 12 year old inventing a cyber life it doesn't
matter.
Please take a few minutes to get past my moniker.
OK, good.
Now, "I should know what I'm talking about" is
a classic fallacy-- the appeal to authority.
Instead of spending so much time telling everyone
why you're an authority why don't you actually
talk about something that you think you should
know about? Talk about something that isn't you
and isn't me. Talk about the subject.
Under what circumstances should someone be
punished for false alarm when crying "wolf!"
in an airport? Does "I was afraid" trump all?
Hi Pelayo, the article above says the commotion
starteded at the gate and continued on to the
plane. Then after the plane departed and only after
it was on the tarmac away from the terminal did it
return and everyone deplaned.
So if it was fear of death then why did this person
get on the plane? Obviously this started at the
gate before boarding. If the hysterical moron was
afraid of death then he or she would not have
boarded.
Once on board though, the idea that now you can
throw a fit and return the plane to the gate is
narcissism. "I'm afraid and I'm all that matters".
Also, do you think that anyone, anywhere that has
a fear of being maimed should be able to interrupt
the lives of everyone around? Is there no limit to
this behavior?
...and for the rest, who really ARE more sane than the self-righteous troll, let me fill you in on why the sensitivity. Start with 1983...
Ya see then, I was currently a Gunny in the USMC, assigned embassy, Beiruit (yes, I later went naval option because of this...and USMCis part of the Navy anyway, so it was easy)...
I, along with many other Marines, also raised hell, much in the same manner as the San Diegans did, along with the Team I later developed a friendship with...screaming bloody murder that we were a "target waiting to happen"...the diplos who dared not "offeeeeeennd" the mOslems by putting up barricades and such to prevent bombing attacks outright refused...right up to the point where I was forcibly "reasigned" for my "belligerence" in the matter, as well as the Team getting removed from the zone.
Two weeks later...*BOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!!*
I lost a lot of friends because some self-serving narcissistic asshole bitched because HIS "schedule" would have been "impeeeeeded".
I was also one who tried to raise hell that we were totally open to attack in the 90s, only to be given a dressing-down, by equally self-serving narcissistic assholes who knew even LESS about "whatdafuq" THEY were talking about.
Now even THAT is history...all because someone thought their own importance was greater than that of the common good by taking precautions...
...and that's just TWO pieces of MANY that led up to this.
THAT's why I defend those folks...common sense, and a long history of how the risk is too great NOT to SAY SOMETHING if you SEE SOMETHING.
And there's another thing we agree on...
you don't "care about" anything but your own self-importance, as demonstrated by your very first entry here as a newb.
I didn't bring up the chest-thumping laurelesques, YOU did...so get off it.
I didn't complain about MY schedule and how it affectes ME and MY life...YOU did.
YOU...YOU...YOU...it was ALL about YOU, as if the world revolved around YOU...It doesn't.
And save the lecture about being ON TOPIC...I didn't go OT on this...YOU went OT the minute YOU harped about YOU, be it specifics, or in general.
If you cannot see YOU for what YOU triggered, the see a doctor about that narcissism YOU appear to be suffering...and don't come in here as a "newb" (which you probably are not, just using another screenname to hide your insecurities), and pretend YOU know & others don't, yet try to throw that back in others faces like a classic malignant narcissist does, and expect any comeuppance.
Get a clue, and a life...and some common sense, which you obviously don't have, will help dramatically...along with seeing your doctor for that problem you have.
People like you get people like us killed.
The only thing that got hurt in any way by people saying something was a schedule...and someones ego...the same thing you're trying to inflate in your self-righteous world in your own mind.
Borg
The question is why are your airports not secure and if they are why do they not appear to be secure?
If they did no one would be bothered by some people in a group speaking Arabic.
Be vigilant, definitely. Be paranoid?
I believe I do have a better knowledge of history than you as your post has been written with a very jaundiced viewpoint. For a country that killed of most of the native american's, you'll do tend to shout hoarse when you find that other races were as savage as your ancestors were.
For the record Im not a muslim , nor a christian , nor any other religion nor an atheist. Have fun denigrating Islam because it's not related to any point that i make.
Thanks duh_swami!
You're one of my favorite posters because you are always so right! Again, sorry for thinking that you were telling ME take a hike because you've been nothing but kind to be all these months. Lord I'm silly!
lol, champ...awwww, don't be so silly...ya know we all love ya anyway! lol
Thanks jcom972! I love you too. And you've really held your own with ole whatsyourproblem. Bravo girl! What is his/her problem anyway?
jcom, you said it's common sense to throw a fit on
an airplane. I guess it's better to throw a fit on
the tarmac then in the air but how does this rise
to "common sense"?
You think people speaking Arabic is enough to fear
for your life? If that was "common sense" then
Arabic speaking communities like Dearborn, Michigan
would have much higher levels of terrorism and
violence than, say, Chicago or DC. But it doesn't.
There is nothing "common sense" about it. It is
irrationality.
I think all these people are being played for fools
by CAIR and their ilk. They say "jump" (in Arabic)
and everyone else jumps. Strike fear into their
hearts, it's so easy, just speak Arabic. What a
bunch of compliant drones. Next stop dhimmihood!
Problem? simple: first part was narcissism, after that: ego, based on the first part, coupled with projectionsm.
Well...I normally refrain from such things...but as you can see, this one hits WAY too close to home, and I tend to go after them with well-deserved extreme prejudice...to prevent it from ever happening again whenever possible.
Who knows...maybe something got through & he's pausing to think about it. If so, give him all the slack in the world...if not...well, "let the games begin!" lol
...and based on that last rant of his, looks like he doesn't bother to read half the posts anyway, ignoring what's beyond dispute.
Yep...narciassism & projection.
Looks like further attempts at reason for this troll is pointless...he's not listening at all.
NEXT???!!!
dude, I ask you simple questions and you are
incapable of responding to them.
Reason? Bluster and braggadocio is more like it.
Answer the simple questions.
LOL
More projectionism and narcissism.
The cup runneth over...
I rest my case...(or maybe he did it for me...either way *yawwwwnnnnnn*) LOL
but what it isn't is answering a simple question.
Rest your case without responding to repeated
attempts to illicit anything but bluster from
you. OK, great. Your case is rested and you did
about as good as Mike Nifong.
Nobody cares about your made up stories dude and
you're incapable of simple discussion.
Bluster bluster bluster. That's all you're good for.
lol...did this clown just say "dude"? LOL
well, that brought the anticipated age group down dramatically-definitely not high or mid-level contractor, lol
(I'M in CA, and I don't even use that term, lol)
Everone else got it...minus one. It says a lot.
For the rest, here goes...
every...answer...is...posted...above.
One's refusal to read it isn't my problem...it's theirs...and all this follow-up infantile projection reminiscent of the equally malignant narcissist, mikie-the-moore-on (my term for him) won't help, either.
(that's the fun with narcissists, they don't even realize the hole they dug, and refuse to, as it will only deflate their own ego if they stop to regroup...case-in-point, the trolls last post)
Just keep on resting my case...he's on auto-destruct sequence, so watch out for an explosion...*yawn*.
lol
I ask the community again, "Has anyone seen GetBornAgain lately?"
whatdafuq (formerly GBA) wrote:
"Or your an idiot and moron yourself, an idea which I have not yet discounted."
My suspicions seem to be falling into place nicely.
Come on people. Read between the lines. It is obvious. This person has no intention in engaging in honest, respectful debate.
The point I am trying to make is that my initial presuppositions yesterday about GBA may have been inaccurate. GetBornAgain may not have been just a conservative-hating, liberal Christian. His intentions may be more dubious than that. His moniker may have been an obvious attempt to obfuscate the truth that he is actually an African American Islamic convert. I'm not sure.
He openly professed his liberalism, so the first conundrum is why would any liberal support Tancredo? They seem to be diametric opposites to me. Liberals who simultaneously take a rather hard and narrow stance on Islam? That seems a rare bird to me as well. That to me, seemed to be GBA's position, or at least the position he wished to portray of himself.
Things that also struck me odd about him was his endorsement of both Obama and Tancredo. Both have spoken of bombing the Islamic world in one form or another. A red flag immediately went up on that one. Knowing that CAIR has used a single comment by a community poster, one who came and went quickly here, as a validating example in an attempt to slander Robert and JW on television, should serve as a reminder to us all.
Am I saying that GBA is certainly a plant by CAIR? No I am not, for I cannot prove that. What logic tells me is that the single comment by the passer-by here that was used by Hooper and CAIR, subsequently refuted on logical grounds by Robert, was simply an initial probing by those who wish to silence Robert.
Case in point regarding GBA and potentially whatdafuq (who I still maintain is the same person), infiltration with intent to develop a longer, more substantial posting history here at JW. Something CAIR or any critic of Robert, whether Islamic or not, will undoubtably attempt to use against him in the future.
GBA, now whatdafuq, may be a lone operator, but a thread history, especially one that somewhat plays into the general position here, can still be applied against this site and it's host. The more credence we as community members give to these rogue sorts, the more they can be lumped in as "one of us", whether or not it is actually true.
We all know CAIR, currently pushed back on their heels, monitors this site constantly. I am sure they have a full-time position filled for this specific task. Those who are openly pro-Islamic are realtively easy to deal with, in a fact-based, respectful discourse. Others who true identity, beliefs and agendas which are not overt, will prove to be more problematic to expose.
I implore the community to tread lightly and most carefully, going forward, with all comments to our supposed guests, one's we deem as trolls.
The war against the aggresive nature of applied socio-political Islam has many fronts and, whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, this hallowed ground here at JW, is most assuredly one of them.
"Bluster bluster bluster. That's all you're good for"
There it is again jcom972 -- the "projection" you mentioned.
awake,
You have a good question as to the MIA. The rhetoric does sound eerily familiar, doesn't it.
I just thought someone let him out on a day pass for the library...lol.
It's neither here nor there with me, as it won't be the first time someone used "sock puppets" (multiple screennames) to attack & hide behind the screen.
It certainly wouldn't surprise me one bit...they never do....I've dealt with them for decades now, and this is just a wanton troll & isn't kidding anyone...save himself.
It's sad, but sometimes ya gotta see the humor in them as they become amusing.
Sad to say, champ...yep.
One doesn't reason with people like that, especially infantile projections they don't even know they did.
Just another oxygen thief for the world to deal with.
wow, awake. That is quite impressive! You said,
"This person has no intention in engaging in
honest, respectful debate." All I've been doing
for the past few posts is asking a simple question
and I've not gotten a single answer to it.
All I get is bluster and a fake resume that is
supposed to impress me into accepting anything
jcoms says as fact.
And I'm playing "a thread history" into "the
general position" that can be applied against
this site! Wow! Incredible! Anything especially
harmful to this site that I've said? I'm actually
shocked but very intrieged now.
Honest, respectful debate!? Let's have at it!
Do you think the person who disembarked with child
from the airplane should've ever gotten on the
plane if he or she feared for his or her life?
Once on board don't you think that having such a
fit as to turn the plane around constitutes arrest? If not, then under what circumstances
does making a false alarm (this was a false alarm
by the way) warrent arrest?
Please answer the questions. Let's engage in some
honest, respectful debate!
hmm, champ. That's an interesting comment.
So when I ask a question and what I get back is
someone saying he was in special forces and worked
in a redcell with a decorated commander and he was
in beirut and had a bad CINC (with an irritatingly
PC wife) but does not answer the question how,
EXACTLY, is it projection to call that bluster?
It's a simple question. Can you answer it?
"Have fun denigrating Islam because it's not related to any point that i make." Posted by: cerebate
Would you please clarify this statement?
It sounds as if you're saying that you are not here to post about Islam.
Am I reading that correctly?
If I am correct, then may I ask, What are you doing on this site? This site is only about Islam and its ramifications for the rest of us.
If I am not correct, please let me know.
"It's a simple question. Can you answer it?"
Gladly.
"So when I ask a question and what I get back is
someone saying he was in special forces and worked
in a redcell with a decorated commander and he was
in beirut and had a bad CINC (with an irritatingly
PC wife) but does not answer the question how,
EXACTLY, is it projection to call that bluster?"
I'm not referring to your above comment as being bluster -- it's your overall tone and style of communication that screams of bluster, bluster, bluster.
GBA wrote:
"Do you think the person who disembarked with child from the airplane should've ever gotten on the plane if he or she feared for his or her life?"
Well, quite honestly, I don't know. I am sure the specifics of the "conflict that started at the gate" are not inherently known to you or I at this point. Maybe they were just simple Iraqi Americans engaging in a normal discussion in their native language, with no pretense involved.
Your initial hook, as it was, was that these people who eventually forced the plane to return to the jetway, ending up causing the plane to depart the next day, are "childish morons", who are guilty of Islamophobia merely by hearing the Arabic language uttered.
I find it odd that you, unless of course you were on that plane, are so critical of these "nervous Nellies", as you portrayed them, can proceed with a blanket condemnation of these patrons. To me it seems, you have already concurred that they were in the wrong. You have stated, more or less that you are positive that the intentions of the Arabic-speaking patrons intentions were pure and honorable, that no amount of intentional griefing on their part, could have possibly been present. This may be true in this case, but for someone who adores life as I do, the old adage, "better safe than sorry", rings remarkably loud and clear.
However, for one who likes to stay on topic as often as possible, I must agree with Robert's initial gist in the article and commentary, that this is unfortunately the world we currently live in.
I also would like to pose a question or two to you, GBA. In light of the fact of the events on 9/11, coupled with the knowledge of recent events specifically of this nature, namely the pending "flying Imam's" case, how you can, at this point, knowing as little as I know about the incident, that the reaction of the people in question were clearly out of line and an obvious overreaction on their part?
Your stance on the "flying Imam's case would be helpful to me in order to more fully understand your position. Can we start with that question posed to you? I have answered your's to the best of my ability at this point.
One thing is for sure, GBA Your personal inconvenience factor due to these pandemic incidents, that you suggest will occur in the future, is of absolutely no concern to myself and apparently, many others on this forum.
Josephine
My point is that Politicians, Media and Robert Spencer included have a financial motive in keeping the population in a state of fear. While there is no doubt that terrorism is a problem and islamic fundamentalism is on the rise, most people aren't seeing how they are also harmed by the Democrats, The Republicans, The Conservatives, The Liberals. Look around you, you'll see what I mean.
Everyone who is in a position to do something about the problem is motivated only by power, money or greed.No one is interested in finding solutions or solving problems.
From an outsider's perspective this airline incident only underlines the paranoia that some of the population finds itself facing, and sites like these do their best to encourage it.
Lets assume Islam is a violent religion and Christianity is a peaceful one. Even if you could prove that with all certaintity, are any of your problems solved? Are the jihadists going to say, oops we picked the wrong religion?
Which is why i say none of what I say is related to Islam.
As to why i chose this site,
I'm hoping that atleast some people will try and find solutions instead of being satisfied with My God is bigger/better/faster/stronger/more peaceful than yours. I dont have any hopes that it will happen anytime though.
I do hope that some people will start asking themselves What is Roberts motivation in creating this site
Is it as he states on the homepage
Is he concerned about all of us and wants to warn us in time and prevent a disaster
Does he want to sell more books by being controversial and extreme right wing(e.g. Ann Coulter)
Does he want more media time to allow for more money, a future in politics?
All of the above?
And if Robert is going to make money, who is it coming from?
"...Robert Spencer included have a financial motive in keeping the population in a state of fear..."
"...the paranoia that some of the population finds itself facing, and sites like these do their best to encourage it."
"I do hope that some people will start asking themselves What is Roberts motivation in creating this site..." Posted by: cerebate
cerebate -- How many articles have you read on this site? How many of Robert Spencer's books have you read? How many of his video segments have you watched on Hot Air?
You have joined this website and immediately criticized the person who runs it. Not only have you criticized Robert Spencer but you have the gall to presume to tell us that his motives are bad.
You have demonstrated very bad manners. I'm not going to engage in any further dialogue with you.
Do keep in mind that you are a guest here. And you seem to be preoccupied with criticizing your host.
It's ok folks...it's the sequel to an old movie, this one called
"Night of the living trolls"
lol
Josephine
Read some articles and watched some of his interviews on youtube. Enough to get a feel for it.
I havent bought any of his book's , Im waiting till the library get's a copy of his latest.
As for bad manners, look around on this site and the number of insults traded, the names called, the beliefs passed of as facts. The hatred , the contempt that is visible in so many posts, so yes i fit right in!
Again i say , ask yourself what would it take to solve the terrorist problem we face(Remember Christianity is a peaceful religion and Christ taught love and forgiveness to everyone), And always question the motives of people who tell you things. It helps in separating out of truth from what sounds like truth.
Im not only criticizing my host, Im criticizing the media that he is part of. America is the third country I've stayed in and i haven't seen a more partisan press yet(all sides).
If Richard is fond of debate, he wont mind that I point out he has a financial motivation, nor do i suspect will he deny it. It need not be his only motivation ofcourse.
"Richard"????
OMG, another one...LMAO
jcom972
Yes sorry, its Robert not Richard. It doesn't take much to amuse you does it?
alright Awake! Some discussion. Great.
I am not GBA. You can call me GBA all you want
but I am a "long-time (JW) reader; first-time
poster". It's the same handle I have on yahoo
which I got after the first umpteen attempts at
getting an account yielded "username already in
use" so I said, "W...T...F" and lo and behold!
I never accused the nervous nellie of being an
Islamophobe. That's a BS tag anyway used by CAIR
et al to slur critics. I just accused him or her
of being a hysterical moron.
You're right. I wasn't at the gate at Lindberg
when this happened. I'm just going off what was
reported. But it was also reported that these guys
were working for the military (that's why they were
in SD) and they flew to Chicago with everyone else
the next day. Also what has been reported is that
a kurfuffle happened at gate; it continued onto
the plane and after the plane departed it returned
so that one passenger and child could depart.
The plane then was unable to depart not because
of any Arabic speakers freaking out the rest of
the plane but because it was past Lindberg's
curfew since the planes fly low over Point Loma
right after take off.
So just by going on what was reported I don't
see how you can claim that the concern of the
nervous nellie was founded in anything. Granted
the nervous nellie wouldn't have known they were
working for the military (God forbid anyone actually
talk to them and ask them what's up!) but all the
rest of the reported things all point to a
hysterical overreaction that resulted in the
plane being delayed.
Yea if I was on the plane I'd be pissed. But it's
not the "business traveller" stuff everyone's
been saying. What if I was on my way to London
for a vacation and was expected to pick up a
morning flight out of O'Hare? Oops, missed a day.
I've missed flights in O'Hare and you don't
always get on the next flight. Oh, two days missed
at the hotel in London, play tickets went unused,
blah blah blah, ching-ching. What if I was
expecting a kidney for my cancer-stricten kid
to be delivered. Whatever. Ultimately it's not
the delay necessarily that is the bad thing. I
think it's a sad day in America when we indulge
people in their lamest fears. Because there is
really no low. THere's always someone out there
who is even more of a hypocondriac or nervous
nellie than the last. It's a vicious downward
spiral with no acceptable out.
If someone freaks out after we've left the gate
then I'm sorry, sit down and shut up or we'll
bring out the restraints and you'll get a visit
from the cops when we arrive. That hysterical
moron had his or her chance to make a decision.
The chance passed. Sorry sit down and shut up.
My opinion on the flying imams case is that CAIR
was intentionally trying to provoke a situation.
They were very conspicuous in the practice of
their religion and I think it's obvious (well to
me at least) that they wanted to weird people
out. I honestly think ridicule would've been the
best tact to take in that case. "Please, please,
get up, thank you for your supplication but it's
getting embarassing." Once those guys got on the
plane and started changing seats and yelling
across the plane then they should've been told
to sit down and shut up and if they did it again
they should've been forcably restrained. I think
the whole hullabaloo about praying and saying
"Allah Akhbar" is playing right into the hands
of CAIR. Just stick to the real suspect actions.
Ignore the blatant traps.
Thanks for the discussion. What a relief!
With the kook fringe loons (among others) I've had to deal with over the decades...nope, it doesn't.
I USED to be disgusted...now I'm just amused.
I also put in a word for you so Robert will know something's on the radar screen.
;-)
cerebate wrote:
"Im not only criticizing my host, Im criticizing the media that he is part of. America is the third country I've stayed in and i haven't seen a more partisan press yet(all sides)."
Yes, cerebate, your criticism runs far and wide, encompassing all, with the noted exception of Islam. That is conspicuously absent, for in your estimation, Islam is perfect, it seems.
At least you are up front about it. The hours you waste here on this forum are simply and most assuredly, a waste of your time only, not ours.
Yes, yes, Robert Spencer is simply a money-grubbing, religious bigot, for nothing about Islam ever deserves a critical light to shine upon it. Never any introspection from it's adherents. Blasphemy.
I will give you credit, unlike GBA, aka, whatdafuq, for at least your position is honest and out in the open, and I do not give credit to Islamists freely by any means.
That being said, I must tell you that you are undoubtably wasting your time here, with the exception of playing the role of "useful idiot" for us. You will not sway any opinions here who are not already predisposed to do so.
You also, as is commonplace amongst Islamist visitors to this site, fail to provide a single example of where, in your estimation, Robert errs in his portrayal of Islamic jihad, and it's obvious source, the Qur'an. In fact, no one ever does, quite simply, because they can not.
It is tedious, however, to continually deal with the likes of you and your ilk. I for one, never visit specifically pro-Islamic sites with the sole intention to grief. I have better uses for my time.
The truth, by definition, is always the truth, no matter who utters it.
hey cerebate, Robert Spencer actually does have
ideas on how to eliminate violent islam. I'm not
sure how successful they'd be if implemented but
they are thought provoking.
You should read "Religion of Peace" and his
story of the life of Mohommed ("founder of the
world's most intolerant religion").
Why do you want to discuss the motives of people
behind
a site like this? Why not discuss the things
actually said? Note: this particular message
board is not really the place to do so as the
tone has dropped considerably. People always say
"follow the money" which is OK as far as it goes
but even if you do it's the message that is
important. If a cigarette company is funding
research about lung cancer you can't just summarily
dismiss it. You still have to address what the
research says not who is behind the funding of it.
So the motivations of Robert Spencer my be many
things-- financial, religious, .... So what?
What's he saying and is it wrong?
I agree with you, awake...at least cerebate came out up front...new folks get more resepct than those who attack the entire forum of posters ("nervous nellie" )with the first thing they type, then pretend to be shocked at the nastyresponse, on and on, and then feign intelligent discussion by calling one of the passengers a "hysterical moron" (directly or indirectly, which was just done).
"Thanks for the discussion...what a relief!"
What a CROCK!
LOL
hey awake, gimme a break!
"I will give you credit, unlike GBA, aka,
whatdafuq, for at least your position is honest and
out in the open...."
What have I said that is dishonest? Am I hiding
something? If my position on things is not known
maybe it's because people have just blurted out
irrelevant tripe ("I was in Beirut...I was in a
RedCell...I was an instructor at Coronado....)
instead of engaging in a discussion. I ask a
question I get justification for an appeal to
authority. Sigh.
Ask me anything (that is not private and personal
like my name, address, SSN, email address, etc)
and I'll be happy to oblige. I've very opinionated
and am happy to opine!
whatdafuq/GBA wrote (regarding the Flying Imams):
"I honestly think ridicule would've been the
best tact to take in that case."
Great suggestion. Fight potential Islamic jihadist violence with......ridicule?
OK, whatdafuq, I'll bite. I will cease and desist from referring to you by the previous moniker you possessed here at JW, in my opinion, albeit temporarily.
At least you took good advice to heart after your assumed banning. I like your newfound attitude of engaging me in a civil manner. If I was GBA, I certainly would have taken a different approach, as it appears you did, but remember, a leopard can't change it's spots, not completely anyway.
By the way, I disagree with nearly every syllable you utter. I think you are disingenuous to the core. Your eventual denial to my calling you out as GBA, took far too long in my estimation. In addition, your poor excuse of "being a long time reader, first time poster", unable to ascertain the username you wanted initially, seems suspect as well.
What initial username did you desire that you could not get?
Also, if you would be so kind, and answer a few more questions for me, I would most certainly appreciate it, just so we can become familiar in our future discourse.
Are you a Democrat or a Republican, liberal or conservative?
What is your religious ideological background?
Who do you wish would win the Presidency of the US in 2008?
That should suffice.
For fairness, I am a nominal Roman Catholic, who is conservative, and would like to see Rudy Giuliani as the next commander in chief of the free world.
I'll pick this back up tomorrow if you don't mind. I need some sleep. I am looking forward to your reply.
Whatdafug...Me thinketh you protesteth to much.
You can complain, and challange, and call people who have a horrible self protective streak, names all you want, and it wont change a thing.
The airport experience is likely to get more difficult than easier. Most people are unwilling to set themselves up for victimhood, this will become even more evident at airports as time go's by.
You can call it whatever you wish, but you will be subjected to it anyway. That's the way it is...ugly huh...
Oh, so he wants to play...oooook.
Hmmm...let's seeee.....
His very first post:
"I can't believe what a bunch of nervous nellies
are posting on this sight.
(and he wonders why he got a nasty response to his trashing all of us)
So they were speaking
Arabic, so what? If people speaking Arabic getting
on a airplane scares you then please stay home and
don't mess up my flight plans.
(that isn't THE point, and he knows it, as he wasn't even there, though he still acts as if he was)
We now have to cater to the lowest common
denominator these days. How pathetic.
(so, the passenger is a lowest common denominator?
such an "expert", isn't he? lol)
Posted by: whatdafuq"
then on top of that, second entry...************************************
Yup, on time too since henny penny didn't fly with
me! (another trashing of said passenger he doesn't know nor was there to see anything that occurred- good observation troll)
Some Hash House Harriers got arrested recently
trying to mark a course to run on with flour
(because it's more biodegradable than chalk).
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/25/nyregion/25beer.html?_r=2&ref=nyregion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
(good diversion, especially from those "experts" at the NY slimes, lol)
Instead of approaching the individuals and finding
out what the hell they were doing they call the
cops and shut the store down. Sheesh.
(yeah, right...as if mr taunt-them-like-a-3rd-grader WOULD???? I'm sure! LOL)
It's sort of "flight 77 behavior" as opposed to
"flight 93 behavior" and we are all worse off
because of its proliferation.
(both resulted in death, minor details are irrelevant, as this entry position was)
Posted by: whatdafuq"
As you can see, he was off to a really, errr, colorful start...lol
Then this irrelevancy...which ALMOST exonerated his initial trolling, but failed in the end:
"No Zena, I don't think it's a miracle. I think
it's because of aggressively going after them
and not waiting for another 9/11. It's because
we're not treating this as a law enforcement
exercise. There are things we know about-- killing
them with drone aircraft, throwing them in Gitmo,
attacking their "charities", evesdropping on their
communication-- and there are things we don't.
One thing that is not responsible for us not
getting hit again is any of the countermeasures
the TSA has come up with. Taking off my shoes
and having my 6oz tube of toothpaste confiscated
even though it had less than 2oz of actual
toothpaste in it have NOTHING to do with it.
This faux vigilence of nervously complaining
about Arabic speakers does nothing either. It
may be natural for some people to get nervous.
Whatever. But don't foist your nervousness on me!
Don't impact my day because you can't take it.
Stay home. Or take some valium.
Posted by: whatdafuq
(Ya know, we'd all agree that TSA is useless, but that vs. the initial attacks on passengers and posters here is rendered irrelevant now...too little, too late...)
************which bears only marks of plain bitching about ones own problems, which reeked of self-importance, not the core topic at all****************
THEN, when someone parks him, he voices from psudo-authority as if being here for years*********
"hey Champ, if all you can do is make ad hominems
then please go elsewhere.
Posted by: whatdafuq"
(WHAT???? LMAO...talk about the pot calling the kettle black!, and for a sel;f-described "rookie poster" no less! LMAO, God, someone gets this troll a mirror!)
****one would think this new screenname owned the place with the reeking condescension***************
THEN as if being a chief lecturer...this tripe:
"hey swami, ad hominems are not "participation".
In fact, they're a sign of frustration at not being able to participate." (OH, REALLY??? LOL)
Attack what I'm saying but don't resort to ad
hominems. If all someone can do is name call then
there are more appropriate places for them. Like
DailyKos. (AGAIN, narcissistic projectionism abound...absolutely astounding...and hilarious, too!)
Posted by: whatdafuq
******and he wonders why he got his ass parked like he did??? LOL*******************
THEN I come in on it,because after such self-serving pomposity on his part, I had enough of his BS (both his attacks right off, as well as his continued projectionistic attacks and then feigning "discussion"-minded, PUHLEASE!) since I've dealt with such lunatics before...and rightfully so...SUDDENLY, the troll comes off as TRYING to sound like he has the high ground, when he's not even on the ground at all...but that never stops a malignant narcissistis projectionist.
The rest of his spew, you already see...
....and he expects ANYONE here to conduct a level headed conversation with such a hateful selfish pompous ass, who went above and beyond real rationale????...especially after the disgusting and tasteless manner in which he brought to bear which started it in the first place????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
Not in this universe.
"You can call me GBA all you want
but I am a "long-time (JW) reader; first-time
poster"
Dude, there's no way you're a first time poster, what a load of crap. Whether you're GBA or not, you sure ain't no "newbie poster".
We'll suppose to believe that you've been sitting quietly by all these months -- years maybe -- reading JW without so much as a peep? Right. Someone with such strong opinions and SO much to say as a "first time poster" is just remarkable. When I was new I barely said two words, let alone pulled down an entire thread in a single day.
Please -- get real by being honest -- DUDE!
hi awake, I'm not proposing to fight violence
with ridicule. But throwing a rug down and
prostrating oneself is not, in my opinion,
violent. I think their motivation was intimidation
and the appropriate response would be to not be
intimidated. Ridiculing them would be, in my
opinion, an appropariate response.
I'm sorry you persist in thinking I'm someone
else but I really don't care. I think if I'd
aggressively and immediately denied being that
person it would've been more of a clue that
you're on the right track. But whatever, think
what you will....
The initial username problem was at yahoo. I used
my yahoo name here just because of continuity.
It's the whatdafuq experience! Yes, you are
experienced!
So, to answer your questions.
I'm a libertarian who is disgusted with the
Libertarian Party. I would prefer any of the
Republicans running over any of the Democrats
running but I don't think I can hold my nose
long enough to vote for any of them. If I had
my druthers I don't think I'd like to see Guliani
but I can't really say who I'd like to see in
his place as the Republican nominee.
I'm also a Roman Catholic (of the Irish
persuation). I think Vatican II went too far
with the "peace hug" and the banners and all the
trappings of protestentism. I think ecunemicism
should be focused east and not west. I'm glad
priests don't need their bishop's permission to
do the Tridentine Mass.
I think I would call myself a conservative. I
subscribe to National Review and the first thing
I do upon reciept of my latest copy is flip to
the Happy Warrior column by Mark Steyn. I really
like that guy's style. I loved his "Culture
Vulture" column too back when Florence King had
the back page.
I don't know who I wish would win the presidency.
Frankly they're all bad. I know that's easy to
say. I'm not a Ron Paul backer although I did
vote for him back in the 80s when he ran under
the Libertarian ticket. I guess I'm the large
bloc of undecided that will be courted by the
candidates. I will not vote Democratic that is
for damned sure.
hey champ, interesting logic you have. I'm
opinionated ("such strong opinions and SO much
to say") and there is no way someone as opinionated
as me could be a first-time poster.
You might want to poke around the Internet a bit.
JW doesn't have a monopoly on opinionated people.
Your other mistake is to equate yourself with me.
"When I was new I barely said two words, let
alone pulled down an entire thread in a single
day." Well that's you. That's not me.
You think I'm not being honest because I'm not
behaving the way you would in the same situation?
What an strange perspective you have on honesty.
Ham and Cheese on a Kaiser Roll!
Never leave in a plane without one.
Simple.
Besides, that guttural language you thought was Arabic, might turn out to be Hebrew, Amharic, or Dutch.
"Your other mistake is to equate yourself with me".
You're right, that was a mistake. When I read that I had to take a hot shower and scrub down with lye soap to get the cooties off.
gee MZ, thanks. After the grilling from awake and
the rantings of lavagirl (who hangs out with
sharkboy-- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Sharkboy_and_Lavagirl_in_3-D)
I was feeling distinctly unloved.
I understand forum. And soapbox too. The only
question is does participation require a rigid
adherence to dogma? Is it the comfort of an echo
that people seek here?
Preview, then post. 'Cept it's not a live link when
previewed. Oh well, lavagirl and sharkboy are here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Sharkboy_and_Lavagirl_in_3-D
The closing paren shouldn't have been in the URL.
whadafuq-
What's with the poetry "paragraphing"?
Writing on a Blackberry?
Being immediately obnoxious is a sure fire way to gain instant allies.
Mocking the understandable concerns of passengers, as if this kind of event happens so often that it is now intolerable, is a nonsensically-overwrought pose.
This is a place to dissect the Jihad and propose useful ideas in our defense against the rising, tyrannical impulse of fundamentalist Islam.
You have many points, but most are irrelevant to this effort.
Focus, dude.
profitsbeard, the thing is it's not understandable.
Being afraid of people speaking Arabic is just
irrational. And if that person-with-child really
was afraid then why get on the plane!?!?!?! Only
after the plane departs does this moron throw a
fit and force the plane back to the gate!
No, nothing understandable about such idiotic
and selfish behavior.
Isn't part of "the Jihad" to strike fear in the
hearts of non-muslims (as Mo instructed muslims
to do)? Seems like these nervous nellies are
accepting this state. They are acknowledging
and accepting that fear is in their heart and
they are afraid of someone just because that
person speaks Arabic.
Seems to me these sorts of people will be really
comfortable as dhimmis. "Ohhhh, jizya. OK, here.
More? OK, here's some more. Just don't speak
anymore Arabic! I just wet myself." Sheesh.
If you want to fight "the Jihad" then refuse to
be afraid. Vigilance is not the same as fear.
Be vigilant. Keep an eye out. But forpeetssake
don't get wigged out over nothing. And as far
as threats go, someone speaking Arabic is nothing.
Borg
The question is why are your airports not secure and if they are why do they not appear to be secure?
If they did no one would be bothered by some people in a group speaking Arabic.
Be vigilant, definitely. Be paranoid?
I believe I do have a better knowledge of history than you as your post has been written with a very jaundiced viewpoint. For a country that killed of most of the native american's, you'll do tend to shout hoarse when you find that other races were as savage as your ancestors were.
For the record Im not a muslim , nor a christian , nor any other religion nor an atheist. Have fun denigrating Islam because it's not related to any point that i make.
Posted by: cerebate at August 30, 2007 7:03 PM
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Why are our airports not secure? 'Our' airports? Since you've lived in three countries you must know that no country has airports that are secure. Except maybe Israel because they are not afraid to profile. Profile by religion? Not allowed.
Paranoid? The news story was sketchy. Were those men strip searched? Many people are for no apparent reason. Maybe if they had been searched, not even strip searched, the other passengers would have been able to relax? A bomber could press a button under his shirt with no one having a chance to even see it. How can you be vigilant against that? That was the plan in the Pacific a few years ago. No plan to take the plane anywhere, just to blow it up. (Read Maria Ressa)
Better knowledge of history than me? You may well have a better knowledge, I haven't seen any of your posts before. But just because I am completely against the religion of islam does not mean I have no knowledge. I have only been reading about islam almost every single day since 9/11. And I don't like it. Not just reading here. Lots of books. Something about the stated desire to kill unbelievers or subjucate them turns me off and makes me want to scream the danger to everyone. Sorry if that offends you.
I've been 'shouting hoarse' about islam every chance I get, yes indeed. Not the RACE of islam, the RELIGION. There is no race of islam. Unless you are an Arab supremisist who believes that islam belongs to the Arabs, which is what Mohammad said. The muslims in Indonesia and Maylasia would tend to disagree.
Savage ancestors? Of course all races can be savage. Whose ancestors haven't been involved in wars to the near finish at some point? That would include American Indians who spendt a great deal of time in inter-tribal wars. That would also include all muslim ancestors. And your ancestors whatever they were.
Because someone's ancestors were in wars should this generation let destruction happen to their country now? Do you think the American Indians would be treated well by the muslims if they take over? There are plenty of Native Americans in the United States, living free. How long would they last? And the Aboriginal people of Aussie? Would they last since they are pagan? How about the Hindu's in England? Will they become subjucated when the muslims are the majority? And the atheists around the world? Killed? Or taxed? Or just run out. If you have read history you could know the answers.
It always amuses me when someone says "Well your ancestors did such and such" with the implication that we now "deserve" to let ourselves be treated the same because after all we deserve it as some sort of payback. The people they did things to didn't just sit there and take it, they fought back, and so should we now. Great migrations of people have happened in the past and they are happening now. The results have almost always been disasterous for the indeginous peoples. That includes us. The West. Why should we 'let' it happen?
Maybe you should discuss your history issues with Hugh? Or Robert. They are the experts.
.
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For the record Im not a muslim , nor a christian , nor any other religion nor an atheist. Have fun denigrating Islam because it's not related to any point that i make.
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And this part above, I don't even know how to answer. Are you an alien from another planet? You have no religion but you are not an atheist?
And if islam isn't related to ANY point, then what is your point? Are you here just to critize posters? To defend Arabs? To call "Richard" names?
I believe his books are well researched. I've read them and recommend them. I've bought them and given them away so others could read them. You haven't read them. But yet you critize.
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"Have fun denigrating Islam because it's not related to any point that i make." Posted by: cerebate
Would you please clarify this statement?
It sounds as if you're saying that you are not here to post about Islam.
Am I reading that correctly?
If I am correct, then may I ask, What are you doing on this site? This site is only about Islam and its ramifications for the rest of us.
If I am not correct, please let me know.
Posted by: Josephine at August 30, 2007 9:19 PM
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Thank you Josephine
----
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.
Josephine
Read some articles and watched some of his interviews on youtube. Enough to get a feel for it.
I havent bought any of his book's , Im waiting till the library get's a copy of his latest.
As for bad manners, look around on this site and the number of insults traded, the names called, the beliefs passed of as facts. The hatred , the contempt that is visible in so many posts, so yes i fit right in!
Again i say , ask yourself what would it take to solve the terrorist problem we face(Remember Christianity is a peaceful religion and Christ taught love and forgiveness to everyone), And always question the motives of people who tell you things. It helps in separating out of truth from what sounds like truth.
Im not only criticizing my host, Im criticizing the media that he is part of. America is the third country I've stayed in and i haven't seen a more partisan press yet(all sides).
If Richard is fond of debate, he wont mind that I point out he has a financial motivation, nor do i suspect will he deny it. It need not be his only motivation ofcourse.
Posted by: cerebate at August 30, 2007 10:35 PM
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.
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Everyone needs an income. He gives this site his entire time. Would you deny him finacial support?
I have read books by others with no financial incentive and they say the same.
There are online books written by persons long dead. Posted by people with no financial incentive. No online ads to cover their costs.
Is the media biased? Yes, they want to keep their jobs. Many who have spoken out have lost their jobs, their careers. You are speaking of the American media. Do you think the media in other countries isn't biased? The BBC is called the Biased Broadcasting Corporation by many. The Swedish posters and Fjordman report that the media in their countries don't even discuss these issues. It isn't even mentioned.
Media in the middle east countries is biased, too, of course.
I am curious what country you lived in that had free unbiased media?
Try reading Dr. Bostom, or Serge Trifkovic, or any of the dozens of books recommended by Hugh. You don't even have to buy some of them since they are online.
If you don't trust Robert's work, why don't you look into some ex-muslim works? The ex-jihad poster Walid Shoebat tells it like it is. And Ali Sina. There are lots more. Do they get paid? Of course. Everyone needs to earn a living. Are they writing what they write only to make money? It's hard to make money writing about something you know nothing about.
Unless you are being paid by the Saudi's.
And there are plenty of muslim sites on the internet. If you read them and your hair doesn't stand on end then there is no hope for you.
cerebate-
Again,
People speaking in their native tongues never used to bother others. Arabs have changed that. That is their fault, not ours.
9/11 is part of the reason people are scared, the other part is the constant threats coming from muslims. The videos promising big surprises don't make people think they are sending a nice gift. The threats to kill millions makes the talk by the politicans that you are more likely to get struck by lightening seem foolish.
And beyond ALL of that, the history of islamic conquest and destruction is a fact, to be ignored at your own peril and the peril of your children and grandchildren. That's both ancient history and recent history. Violence has been a part of islam from the start and there is no reason to think it will change.
The history of islam is conquest. Both by sweeping in and destroying or by immigrating and becoming a majority and causing civil war that leads to countries breaking up or becoming completely islamic by murdering the minorities or subjucating them.
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I didn't know anything about islam on 9/10. I wish I still didn't. But it's too late for that now. I know about how Mohammad lived and his companions. I know what they did and why they did it. I know why their followers act the way they do. The good and the bad.
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Wow...I get back after the weekend...only to find that our "new" troll hasn't learned a single thing (gee, what a shock)...even amidst the attempt at "academics" his narcissism prevents any substantive rationale` without evading the core response to his absurdity, and without the overwhelming desire to snip n' quip with those snide infantile projectionistic comments to save face...
Well, no sense dwelling on such absurdities (even though more of the story came up with FoxNews showing there was an altercation with those "just trying to help"s, which he conveniently ignored, and obviously there's more to it than his suggestion of a "hysterical moron" involved).
It's really simple...
ya come here and the first thing written is in insult (it was NOT written as an opinion), call the passenger lewd names as if all-knowing, all-seeing, been-there expertise, get blasted for said ridiculous infantile comments...and actually wonder why ya get return fire..then on top of that, project onto others which ya just got done doing, then evade the core of the return fire, even when shown what assinine things ya said...
man, that's classic malignant narcissism which needs serious medical eval.
Obviously there's no hope for this gumbah, and no sense worrying what he has to say...
...then again, we could always use another court-jester...and he more than qualifies if he keeps this stuff up.
The 'net's full of them, and they're full of themselves...and nothing on earth will change that...only they can change that themselves.
I hope he gets some help for that disorder...he fooled nobody...and we're getting too old to put up with such shenanigans one would normally expect at a high school party.
This threads probably dead , but the Rocky mountains didnt allow me access, but just for the record since some questions were asked.
Awake:
I do not like Islam (or any other religion, including the one I was born into), and yes I do also believe that currently Islam's followers are the most violent and the ones to be the most wary of. But criticising Islam would serve no purpose in this forum, it would be preaching to the choir.
As you also point out , im most certainly not going to change any opinion of yours. It must be nice going to a debate with an open mind, right?
And no I didnt call Robert any of the names you have said. I watched his interviews(on his latest book) and he had some very valid points, but he's going to divert attention from his points and hence dilute them by making it a comparison of Islam v/s Christianity. And I believe thats partly because there is more money to be made that way.
And I for one, will visit various sites to see their viewpoints.
Borg: You bring up points about how Islam's history is that of conquests not I. so i guess you did that to amuse yourself.
if you do not know how you can not believe in any religion , and still believe in God , I suppose its because you havent bothered finding out about various beliefs. To give you one variant Spinoza defines God as The sum total of all the laws of nature.
Thanks for the books , but i dislike all religion so I really dont need to see how a particular one is the worst of the lot. And no i dont live in a country with unbiased media or secure airports , and for the record i feel safer in an american airport than the one from my native country.
Whatdafuq: Motivations show bias. A biased report should be read very carefully.
This post illustrated that a some americans are paranoid and some people on this forum agree with them. I had a stopover in Minneapolis and there was a muslim husband and wife, the muslim with the full beard and severe looking, The wife with the full burkha. I didnt look at them and think Oh my god what if she has a bomb under the burkha? Thankfully neither did any of the passengers. So maybe theres hope yet. On the other hand i did see a news report about compulsory pat down of Sikh Turban's by the TSA. Now the sikh representative kept saying if somethings concealed in turbans cant be detected, why cant something concealed in clothing be?
And the CNN reporter kept trying to make it into a Security v/s Religion question. (which is obvious security should be the priority). Im more worried that if they cant detect harmful objects inside a turban then they really should have better security devices. But CNN would get more viewership if they portray it as The sikhs believe their religion is more important than preventing our airplanes getting blown. If you take the word of CNN as gospel, and as demonstrated by awake(more like asleep and dreaming), some people have fixed opinions.
What amuses me is that id guess that most people on this site believe themselves to be devout christians. I must've read a different version of christianity, you know, the one that says it's easy to love your friend's and family, even sinners do that, what you have to do is love your enemies.