...and tells us to go back to sleep, since Jews, Christians, and Muslims got along swimmingly in medieval Muslim Spain, and therefore there is no clash of civilizations today.
Exhibit A, apparently, will be the Jewish philosopher Moses Maimonides, a resident of this paradisial Al-Andalus. You can find in my book Religion of Peace? some quotations from Maimonides' actual writings that I doubt will make it into this documentary, in which Maimonides complains of the brutality of the Muslims toward the Jews. As soon as I get close enough to a copy of the book I'll post them.
UPDATE 8/27: The passages from Maimonides and other useful material has been posted in the comments field below.
Allow me to lend a small hand, Robert. From my essay The Real Tragedy of Andalusia:
Remember, my coreligionists, that on account of the vast number of our sins, God has hurled us in the midst of this people, the Arabs, who have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us ... Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they..."
This is taken from Bat Ye'or's The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam pg 351. The expulsion Maimonides was victim to was the final of three major expulsions ordered by the Almoravids, the prior two taking place in 1106 and 1126. Reinhart Dozy, the Dutch Arab historian, chronicled the events leading up to and surrounding the mass deportations:The Christians, or Mozarabs as they were called, suffered still more: the Fakihs and the populace fostered against them a yet more envenomed hatred. In most towns they formed but a small community: but in the province of Granada they were still numerous, and near the capital they possessed a beautiful church, which had been built about 600 C.E. by Gudila, a Gothic noble. This church was an offense to the Fakihs. Basing their action, probably, on the autority of the Khalif 'Omar II ... they issued a fetwa decreeing its demolition. Yusuf having given his approval, the sacred edifice was leveled with the ground (A.D. 1099). Other churches seem to have met with a similar fate, and the Fakihs treated the Mozarabs so oppressively that the latter at length appealed to Alfonso the Battler, King of Aragon, to deliver them from their intolerable burdens. Alfonso acceded to their request. In September, 1125, he set out with four thousand knights and their men at-arms, all sworn on the Gospels not the desert one another. Alfonso, did not however, achieve the results he aimed at ... the ultimate object of the expedition had been the capture of Granada, and this was not effected. Upon the withdrawal of the Aragonese army, the Moslems cruelly avenged themselves on the Mozarabs. Ten thousand of the Christians were already out of their reach, for knowing the fate in store for them they had obtained permission from Alfonso to settle in his territories; but many who remained were deprived of their property, maltreated in endless ways, thrown into prision or put to death. The majority, however, were transported to Africa, and endured terrible sufferings, ultimately settling in the vicinity of Saleh and Mequinez (A.D. 1126). This deportation was carried out by virtue of a decree which the Kady Ibn Rushd - grandfathter of the famous Averroes - had procured from Ali. Eleven years later a second expulsion of the Mozarabs took place, and very few were left in Andalusia.
From Spanish Islam, pp 721-722.As historian Richard Fletcher puts it, "The witness of those who lived through the horrors of the Berber conquest, of the Andalusian fitnah in the early eleventh century, of the Almoravid invasion - to mention only a few disruptive episodes - must give it the lie ... Beauty? Yes, a fair amount of it. Tolerance? Ask the Jews of Grenada who were massacred in 1066, or the Christians who were deported by the Almoravids to Morocco in 1126 (like the Moriscos five centuries later)." Al-Andalus "was not a tolerant and enlightened society even in its most cultivated epoch."
From the linked FilmStew article . . .
Nuff $aid.
From the review:
"Bender’s film is slated for 2008 distribution, and has most recently received funding from Saudi Arabian Prince Al Walid Bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud’s Kingdom Foundation"
Surpise Surprise.
Where are all of the modern examples of tolerant, creative, progressive Islam?
This need to go back 1,000 yeats to find any putative examples (which turn rotten when examined seriously) is telling.
They steal advanced technology from the infidels (literally, in the case of A.Q. "Father of the Islamic Bomb" Khan of Pakistan), then use it to attack us.
And how tolerant was their treatment of Byzantine Constantinople?
Or Christian and Berber North Africa?
Or Buddhist Afghanistan?
Or Hindu India?
This one "shining" moment in Andalusia is wearing thin and growing dull.
And its apologists become lame one-trick ponies.
The sauds must be laughing their butts off just thinking how the hated jews are doing their bidding in presenting taqya to the western public.
This the same Abdul Aziz whose $10 million check for 9/11 relief was rejected by Mayor Giuliani because he suggested that the attacks were an indication that the United States "should re-examine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stand toward the Palestinian cause."
It's painful how people buy into this crap. No one wants to think bad of anyone else. So this propaganda is effective.
In a free society "you can fool some of the people all the time..". The rest of us need to stay informed and keep our powder dry.
"The crux of Jacob Bender’s documentary Out of Cordoba relates to the 12th century, but its historical message is one that needs more than ever to be heard by those living in the 21st." ... so goes the opening of this article.
IMHO - this sort of whitewashing/head-in-sand apologetics is the most difficult to overcome because it appears very plausible to the masses.
I have a Indian friend from Bangalore who insists that he and his muslim friends always got along swimmmingly in his youth. When he recently returned, he found scores of mosques and madrasses where before there were just fields on the outskirts of his city. Here's the kicker - he attributes them to his hertofore friendly childhood mates going to England, becoming "radicalized", then returning to India to wreak havoc. Somehow, reminding him that 70M of his own people have been slaughtered at the hands of Islam in history (e.g. long before anyone coined "Londonistan") is lost on him.
Dhimmitude - the corollary to Jihad - is the only way to properly understand 'peaceful' historical relations ... whether in Andulusian Spain, or anywhere else.
Blues4Allah (love that name)
Wrong Saudi Prince.
From CNN story:
"Mayor Rudy Giuliani said Thursday the city would not accept a $10 million donation for disaster relief from Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal after the prince suggested U.S. policies in the Middle East contributed to the September 11 attacks."
Better to have this straightened out now lest you or Robert find yourselves sued for libel in an British court by a Saudi Prince and having to defend yourselves in the U.S.
Muslims love to cite Averroes as the foremost philosopher of Islam's Golden Age, but one wonders why his works are not widely published. Perhaps because Averroes asserted that any position or interpretation of Koranic verses that would not withstand the scrutiny of reason was not worth holding and that it was not worth imposing on unsuspecting people by force.
My short list of Koranic verses that can't stand the scrutinny of reason would be Allah confusing Saul with Gideon (Surah 2:249), Allah confusing Moses' sister Miriam with Mary the mother of Jesus (Surah 3:35-40), Allah declaring that Mary was part of the Trinity (Surah 4:171-172), Islam's 354 day year (Surahs 9:37 and 10:5), and Allah's claim that the sun sets in a pool of black mud (Surah 18:84).
Gnosis,
Great web site and references to Islamic sources.
I have it bookmarked.
History International cable channel is showing a 2006 production called "Secrets of the Koran" tonight at 8:00 Eastern. The info bar on Comcast says that it will make comparisons to the Bible among other things.
Now, back to the regular topic.
chris, this is the reason muslim sreally don't care for this man. "Perhaps because Averroes asserted that any position or interpretation of Koranic verses that would not withstand the scrutiny of reason was not worth holding and that it was not worth imposing on unsuspecting people by force. "
What this means of course that the koran is imperfect. If it's imperfect it can not be the perfect words of allah, but just another man made book. Nowdays, this kind of thinking gets muslims killed by the "traditional muslims".
I WANT YOU
for the Jihad Awareness Project.
We currently have 60 volunteers in 33 states.
WE STILL ARE SEEKING CITIZEN VOLUNTEERS FROM ALL 50 STATES, ESPECIALLY FROM THE FOLLOWING 17:
Alabama
Connecticut
Delaware
Hawaii
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan
Mississippi
Montana
North Dakota
Oklahoma
Rhode Island
South Dakota
Utah
Vermont
West Virginia
Wyoming
I'm looking for at least two people in every state of the Union who would be willing to purchase a copy of Robert Spencer's Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't and mail it, on an agreed upon date, to one of the senators in your state. I'm organizing an effort to get the book simultaneously to all 100 senators, in order to send a strong message. If we get more than two people per state, books can also be sent to the House of Representatives.
If you’d like to be involved, please write to me at traehnam@yahoo.com under the subject heading “Senate,” and tell me the state your senator represents, an email address where I can reach you, and a nickname. No need for your real name. And I will never share your email address with anyone, not even with other volunteers for this project.
And visit www.jihadawareness.blogspot.com to get more info on this project and to leave comments other volunteers can read. You can also see there the growing list of participants in this project, and the states their senators represent. I’ll try to update the list at least once a day. I've also designed a graphic that might amuse. Scroll down when you get to the site.
Once we have at least two people from every state, we can agree on a mailing date and then each of us can mail a copy of the book on that date.
Right before each of us mails the book, we can issue a press release to various media outlets in every state, and in that way announce and explain the mailing. And perhaps we can come up with some other ways of maximizing the effectiveness of this project and gaining as much positive attention as possible.
One of the project's volunteers suggested contacting Rep. Sue Myrick, who started the anti-Jihad caucus in Congress. I'll try to coordinate this project with Rep. Myrick to maximize its effectiveness. I've also been calling various congressional offices to get advice on how best to go about this. And I'll soon contact Regnery, Robert Spencer's publisher, to ask their advice and to see if we can coordinate with them in some way.
Everyone - When you have 30 minutes watch this video - it's fabulous!
http://video.namb.net/More_Than_Dreams/More%20than%20Dreams_500k.wmv
Wrong Saudi Prince? Its the same Al Waleed, who else?
Here's more:
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/08/25/al-andaluz-a-jewish-filmmaker-islam/
Old Jacob (mind-) Bender is a veteran ‘Interfaith’-schlock-peddler who has been on the Saudi payroll for a long time
Ain't nothing like a good old-fashioned fake history to lull the lambs to sleep, even as the wolves lick their slobbering chops from the top of the hill.
From Georgetown to Columbia to Cleveland State to U. Texas to Berkeley to Southern Cal, it's all fake, and it's oh so good.
Chris - Thanks for the "short list of koranic verses that can't stand the scrutiny of reason." I have written them down so I can refer to them.
So, do you have more from the "short list?" Please, post them.
Also, what does "Islam's 354 day year" mean?
Repeat a lie enough times, Some damn fool with take it as gospel.
p.130-131, from Spencer's Religion of Peace?:
Note: In Spencer's book the passages above have three footnotes.Bender’s film is slated for 2008 distribution, and has most recently received funding from Saudi Arabian Prince Al Walid Bin Abdul Aziz Al Saud’s Kingdom Foundation. It has also gotten financing from the government of Spain, where - as per the title of the film - the two philosophers lived back in the 12th century, watching over a culture in which the three different religions shared much information. A media producer based in New York, Bender is also a Jewish interfaith activist. Hence the passion that has driven him since 2003 to produce Out of Cordoba. By virtue of his make-up and the nature of the information he himself is trying to share with the world post-9/11, Bender is an inspiring reflection of the ideals once coursing alongside Averroes and Maimonides. Not to mention someone who seems to have stayed true to feelings first expressed in 2003 as to why he wanted to make Out of Cordoba.
_____________________________________
Saudi Funding? Socialist Spain? Interfaith-Jew? (can't be Orthodox)
Plus founded on a notion that there was a "peaceful" existence over 800 years ago that does NOTHING to deal with the reality of Islam today.
It's easy to be "peaceful" when you are second class citizens who shut-up before their heads are chopped off.
Darcy -
The link you posted -- http://video.namb.net/More_Than_Dreams/More%20than%20Dreams_500k.wmv -- should be posted on every Islamic website -- especially the most jihadist ones.
Traeh, thanks for the copious notes.
Mr. Spencer, Dover books publishes Maimonides' _Guide for the Perplexed_. In the introduction, by a man named Friedlander, there's some discussion whether Maimonies' family was forcibly converted to Islam shortly before they left Spain for Egypt.
Much of _Guide_ deals with the compatibility of reason and revelation (Torah). This seems to be in opposition to Averroes' assertion that truth was bifurcated, with revelation (Qu'ran) paramount in the realm of religion and reason in everything else. On this issue, it seems that Maimonides and Thomas Aquinas were making the same major point.
But, to get back on topic, too much has been made of Ummayad Spain; and too little of how fleeting that moment was and how quicklyit succumbed to the bigotry of the Almohades and Almoravis.
Last week on Canada's ultra-liberal religious channel I watched a program which was so biased against Christians. It was about the expulsion of the Muslims from Spain and all the Muslims were praised for their "just wanting to get along with their lives" and their great architecture (looked clownish to me). The music was always ominous when the Christians were talked about. It was real Dhimmi propaganda.
I found the history of Granada posting interesting and I wonder whether anyone does any real history investigations into Muslim history? I guess you might get killed for "huring Muslims feelings.", however certainly there must be someone courageous out there willing to tell the truth about Muslim evil doings in history. Why are we in the West such cowards.
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/tam/recent
the American muslim
Kepha, you are welcome.
You said:
Aquinas differed from Averroes on this point. For Averroes, apparently, the double-truth idea meant that a truth of reason and a truth of religion could contradict each other, yet both could still be true. For Aquinas, though reason and faith had access to different aspects of the truth, the two aspects could not contradict each other. For Aquinas, truths of reason and of religion are compatible, though we have access to the two aspects of truth differently. See the following:
The above passage is from http://www.radicalacademy.com/aquinas1.htm.
It seems that Averroes' need to accept the possibility of complete contradiction between a "religious truth" and a truth of reason stemmed from the rigidity of Islamic doctrine, which reason sometimes contradicted. Though Christian theologians could certainly be rigid, their theology was more open. The Christian philosophers had the advantage of such New Testament statements as "The Truth shall set you free," and Christians could not always completely ignore the severe limitations imposed by the New Testament on the use of force against those who dissented. (Love your enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.) Muslim dissent from religion doctrine, by contrast, could lead to the death penalty as sanctioned by Muhammad himself in the canonical hadiths: "If someone changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Thus Averroes' philosophy had to introduce the contortions of the "double-truth," because only in that way could he safely say things not in accord with the Islamic faith.
Kepha,
P.S. to my last post: Of course it's true that at times Christians, ignoring the New Testament, have imposed the death penalty on apostates. But the non-violence of the New Testament meant that at least some of the time there was opportunity for open debate and free-ranging employment of reason among medieval Christians. That was far less the case with Islam, since Muhammad himself (not merely misguided followers of Muhammad) supported the death penalty against apostates.
But of course you know this stuff already, Kepha.
James Martel, you said:
Some good recent examples: The Legacy of Jihad and the Fate of Non-Muslims, by Andrew Bostom, to whom Spencer often links. Also, Islam and Dhimmitude by Bat Ye'or. And I believe Hugh has in various posts listed a whole boatload of reliable scholars on the history of Islam. Prior to the appearance of Edward Said's Orientalism, which greatly damaged the field by promulgating all kinds of now-PC half-truths, a good deal of Western scholarship on the subject was apparently honest and reliable.
James Martel:
Andrew Bostom also has forthcoming The Legacy of Islamic Anti-Semitism: from Sacred Texts to Solemn History.
Jacob Bender is really to stupid for words
"American society has always been quite isolated, not wanting to know about the rest of the world. Secondly, American popular cultures always needed ... an enemy to confront with.
"First it was the Native Americans, [then] Germans in World War I, and later on the communists. In recent years people in the United States looked to justify the huge ... military budget by finding a new enemy in the Arab and Muslim world. The 9/11 and Al Qaida presented them with an opportunity to say that Islam is an enemy of the West."
http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Qatar/10148912.html
and muslims will grasp at any irrational, ahistorical delusions
the arabs are not concerned with truth, they are concerned with exercising power
I wonder whether Bender will mention the pogroms that took place in Cordoba itself between 1010 and 1013 (Ibn Warraq, 'Foreword: the Genesis of a Myth', in 'Myth of Islamic Tolerance', ed. Robert Spencer, 2005, p. 16. The whole paragraph runs as follows (most people here will be familiar with it, but for visitors who may not have read the book, I will cite it in its entirety):
"But what of putative Islamic tolerance?" asks Ibn Warraq. "Those apologists who continue to perpetuate the myth of Islamic tolerance should contemplate the massacre and extermination of the Zoroastrians in Iran; the million Armenians in Turkey; the Buddhists and Hindus in India; THE MORE THAN SIX THOUSAND JEWS IN FEZ, MOROCCO, IN 1033; HUNDREDS OF JEWS KILLED IN CORDOBA BETWEEN 1010 AND 1013; THE ENTIRE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF FOUR THOUSAND IN GRANADA IN 1066; the Jews in Marrakesh in 1232; the Jews of Tetuan in Morocco in 1790; the Jews of Baghdad in 1828; AND SO ON AD NAUSEAM."
I hope that Bender is visited in his dreams by the angry souls of all those murdered Jews of Cordoba and Granada, cursing him for his betrayal and for the Big Lie he is choosing to perpetuate.
PBS ran “Cities of Light” the Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain” a few nights ago and what a whitewash it was. The first thing I noticed was that, outside of PBS, all of the many contributors who paid for this “documentary” were Muslims; what’s the expression, “who pays the piper calls the tune? I don’t think it even mentioned the word invasion or aggression when it told of how the Muslims entered the Iberian Peninsula and it gave the impression that Muslims just naturally came across to rescue the Jews and Christians from their cruel Visigothic overlords. All of the talking heads involved were academics, seemingly junior league, who I have never heard of plus one person who was maybe a reporter but all of them, academic or not, with the exception of the one token Jewish scholar, seemed very enthusiastic about Muslim Spain and there was nary an unkind word said about Muslim’s actions in taking over most of the country and ruling it for hundreds of years while its original Christian and Jewish inhabitants became second class citizens. The word dhimmi and second class citizenship for Christians and Jews was mentioned very quickly and then for the rest of the show it was continual emphasis about how swell things were, how nicely the “community” of Muslims, Christians and Jews got along. It was the glories of the refined and cultured Muslims vs. the scruffy dhimmis who, one got the impression, were and ought to have been grateful that they had such wonderful Muslim masters. When Christians started to intensify efforts to re-conquer Spain, this documentary portrayed such Christians as religious fanatics intent on invading Spain to eject its rightful, peaceful Muslim rulers. Overall the tone and content was one long Muslim wail of regret for the loss of Al-Andalus and a prime, totally one sided piece of pro-Muslim and anti-Christian propaganda..
Melik Kaylan wrote in the Opinion Journal of Andalusian Islam's pan-confessional humanism, asserting, ridiculously, that "one could argue that the oft-bewailed missing 'reformation' of Islam was under way there until it was aborted by the Inquisition." However, in Granada between 1056 and 1066, two Jewish high executives, Samuel Ibn Naghrela and his son Joseph, were both assassinated. The ensuing pogrom slaughtered as many as five thousand Jews, and was likely inspired at least in part by a disturbing anti-Jewish ode written by Muslim jurist Abu Ishaq:
Go, my messenger, go and relate these words to all the Sinhejites - the full moons and lions of our days - these words of a man who loves them, who pities them, and who believes that he would fail in his religious duties if he did not give them salutory counsels:
Your master has done a deed at which his ill-wishers rejoice: though he could choose a minister among believers, he has chosen an infidel! Through his minister, the Jews, contemptable outcasts, have become great lords, and their pride and arrogance know no bounds. When they least expected it they have obtained their heart's desire; they have attained the highest honors, so that the vilest ape among these unbelievers today reckons among his menials a multitude of pious and devout Moslems. And all this not by any efforts of their own. Nay! he who has raised them so high is a man of our own religion! Ah, why did he not follow the example set him by devout princes of the days gone by? Why did he not humble the Jews and treat them as the vilest of mortals? Then in droves they would have led among us a vagabond life, the target of our aversion and disdain; then they would not have treated our nobles with arrogance and our saints with scorn; then would not these vile creatures have sat by our side and ridden with the nobles of our court.
O Badis (the amir), you are a sagacious man, and your conjectures are very sooth; how then were you blind to the evil which would be done by these demons who lift up their horns in your dominions? How could you show affection for those bastards who have made you odious in men's sight? How can you hope to establish your power when these wretches pull down what you build up? How can you place such confidence in a villain, and make him your family friend? Have you forgotten how that the Almighty has said in His Book that we should have no fellowship with the ungodly? Take not such men for your ministers, but abandon them to curses, for the whole earth cries out against them - before long will it quake and we shall all perish. Turn your eyes to other lands and behold how the Jews are treated as dogs, and kept apart. Where you alone take another course, you, O prince beloved of your people, descended from a line of kings, you who surpasses your contemporaries even as your ancestors surpassed theirs?
I came to Grenada, and there I beheld the Jews reigning. they had parcelled out the provinces and the capital between them: everywhere one of these accursed ruled. They collected the taxes, they made good cheer, they were sumptuously clad, while your garments, O Muslims, were old and worn out. All the secrets of the state were known to them; yet it is folly to put trust in traitors! While believers ate the bread of poverty, they dined delicately in the palace. They have supplanted you in your master's favor, O Muslims, and will you not oppose them? Will you suffer them? They slaughter oxen and sheep in our markets, and you eat without scruple the flesh of beasts unclean in their eyes! The chief of these apes has adorned his mansion with incrustations of marble, and has made fountains from where limpid waters flow; and while we stand waiting at the gate he scoffs at us and our religion. Great God! What disgrace! If I were to say that he is as rich as you are, my king, I should speak truth. Ah, hasten to slay him, and offer him up as a burnt-offering! Sacrifice him, for he is a fat ram! Spare not his kinsfolk and his friends, for they too have heaped up great riches. Take their wealth; you who has more right to it than they. Think not that it would be treachery to slay them! Nay, but true treachery it is to suffer them to sit in high places. They have broken their covenant with us; who then would dare to blame you if you punish the perjurers? How can we thrive if we live in the shade and the Jews dazzle us with their glory and their pride?. (Dozy; Spanish Islam, pp 651-652)Perhaps it would have been more appropriate for Melik Kaylan to argue that the oft-bewailed missing 'reformation' of Islam was under way there until it was aborted by Abu Ishaq. These Jews had stepped out of bounds by accepting positions of prominence in Muslim society, and they were punished for it.
Wow the formatting got all screwed up in that post. Jeeeeez
"...and tells us to go back to sleep, since Jews, Christians, and Muslims got along swimmingly in medieval Muslim Spain, and therefore there is no clash of civilizations today."
Nothing to see folks, move on.
Pelayo stated:
I checked my local cable listing and surprisingly, I have it. Thanks for the notice. While checking my cable listings, I thought I clicked through to see the entire program listing for this channel, but instead opened a text box describing the channel:
And here is the History International Cable Channel description of this program "Secrets of the Koran"
I'll be holding my nose while watching this program but it cannot possibly be as bad as Christianne Amanpours CNN "God's Warrior's", can it? . ..sigh, never mind.
The film is called "Cities of Light; The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain".
It is a loving, hateful film. Loving towards Islam; hateful towards Christianity.
The lavish production has many historical dramatizations, which show brutal Christians murdering poor, innocent Muslims, throwing them into fires, bashing their heads in, and so on.
And so no viewer misses the bludgeoning point of these re-creations the murderers always wear giant crosses prominently on their tunics, breastplates, helmets. It's really vile to see and I am not a Christian myself.
It is hate-filled toward Christianity; A Hate film if you will. And it's an historical atrocity. Muslims always depicted as innocent, artistic, reasonable, harmonious, skillful, accommodating; Christians (with just one exception) are greedy, barbaric, duplicitous, murderous, and of course intolerant.
The film will make you nauseous but is must viewing if you want to see what we are up against in the liberal establishment.
I did a little research online and here is who funded and made the film:
http://www.upf.tv/upf06/Projects/MuslimSpain/MuslimSpainintro/tabid/78/Default.aspx
Unity Productions Foundation.
"Cities of Light is produced by Michael Wolfe and Alexander Kronemer, the creators and producers of the Cine Award winning documentary Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet, broadcast nationally on PBS in 2002. The film is directed by the award-winning Robert Gardner (Islam: Empire of Faith; Arab and Jew: Return to the Promised Land; The Barbarians)."
There is lots more at the website including a list of all the talking head "advisors" who are shown commenting on the subject throughout the film. Dr. Fairchild Ruggles of the U. of Illinois Urbana-Champaign is the most unbearable of the lot but they are all bad and most of them are prominent professor types from our nation's most prestigious universities. Here they all are:
http://www.upf.tv/upf06/Projects/MuslimSpain/tabid/78/Projects/MuslimSpain/Outreach/tabid/120/Projects/MuslimSpain/Team/tabid/116/Default.aspx
All richly funded by foreign and domestic Islamophiliacs. A well-lubed juggernaut of propaganda.
The period of tolerance in Muslim Spain only lasted 70 years . The whole Muslim occupation lasted almost 800 !
In the balance there was more persecution than there was toleration.
Off topic for a second, I busted my hump last winter for my site, really jacked it up, and took the summer off to recharge my batteries a little. Come autumn I'll be back with a vengeance.
http://geocities.com/ibniblis/
Maybe we here at Jihad Watch could do a series of internet projects to convert Muslims to any other major religion or to atheism. For example, fifty of us could agree to spread this half-hour video to fifty different jihadist websites. Such activity might be more effective for our purposes than just leaving comments to each other here.
I'm not saying anything against leaving comments, of course...
There seem to be two schools of thought here. One claims that all was well in Medieval Spain among Christians, Muslims, and Jews, and that tolerance is the natural state of being among these religions, terrorism being an aberration. The second school holds that there has been nothing but enmity between the West and Islam--in the past, now, and possibly forever. I think both sides have a lot of truth to what they're saying, but I don't subscribe to either of those two positions. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
GetBornAgain—do some research, read the Qur’an, the Hadiths, the Sira (the Center for the Study of Political Islam has published an excellent, inexpensive set of these three fundamental documents of Islam in new translations that rearrange them and restate them in newspaper English—much easier to understand). Read a little history, perhaps Bostom’s collection, “The Legacy of Jihad” or Paul Fregosi’s “Jihad in the West” or any of the works by Bat Ye'or or Robert Spencer and then see if you still think that "the truth lies somewhere in the middle."
In a Bat Ye'or interview that I read recently, she said that she is writing a historical novel.
How about someone commissions her to help do a screenplay for an epic series on the Life of Maimonides? Including the simple fact that he had to flee from place to place throughout his life; and the piece de resistance, his Letter of Encouragement to the Jews of Yemen.
justamomof4 - That 'Secrets of the Koran' thing sounds awful. Oh how I wish someone could mount a response: a no-holds-barred scholarly demolition job, in which an array of formidably qualified Rabbinic scholars - backed up by Christians and secular historians - unite to expose in ruthless detail the nature and extent of Mohammed's bizarre and twisted foefic/ hostile commentary on the Torah, Mishnah and Talmud. The centrepiece should be a discussion of the malicious intent of THE Muslim Big Lie against Judaism - the totally baseless claim that Abraham offered Ishmael, not Isaac.
Islam claims to be 'the original' and to furnish 'corrections' - but to anyone who knows anything about literature and history it is blindingly clear that the Quran is borrowing from the Bible and that all its 'corrections' are of the Orwellian variety as described in 'Big Brother', inspired only by human (and possibly demonic) malice.
I can just see the party/lunch/dinner for the producers and talking heads from the "City of Light." Lots of congratulations and stroking from their Muslim backers and lots of self-congratulation on telling a story that "needed to be told," on their courageousness and for setting the reoord straight for all the Islamophobic boobs out there; striking a blow for the truth about Islam for the "Three Abrahamic Religions" and the tolerance of Islam. Too bad its all a lie.
Well, I managed to watch a good portion of the History Channel International program "Secrets of the Koran", and after reading some of the later comments here on this thread, can sum up my review by pointing to existing comments and simply updating -
First, take GaryK's comment at 5:12pm and edit the title of the film from "Critics of Light, Rise & Fall of Islamic Spain" and substitute "Secrets of the Koran". Where in his comment he mentions "Spain" simply change the term to "Jerusalem".
GaryK's review mentions the treatment of how Islam grew
- ditto this film
vs.The terms dhimmi and second class citizenship for Christians and Jews however, was not mentioned in the History channel film. However, Saladin, a pious muslim who only contemplated and discussed jihad (of the lesser variety) and islam, spared the surviving residents of Jerusalem when he 'took over' it's leadership (sanitized enough, eh) and later, simply laid down his sword as he and King Richard the Lionheart strolled off into the sunset at the point of the third crusade.
- GaryKThe talking heads for the History Channel film provides for an interesting cast of characters, many with histories at Campus Watch (hyperlinks provided):
Carole Hillenbrand University of Edinburgh, winner of the King Faisal International Prize for Islamic Studies
Jonathan E Brockopp
Thomas F Madden St. Louis Univ.
Sherman A. Jackson Univ. Michigan
Khalid Abu Al Fadl of UCLA
Fred Donner Univ. Chicago
Wadad Kadi Univ. Chicago
Akbar Ahmed American University
Tariq Ali only reference given was book titled "Clash of Fundamentalisms"
Reza Azlan only reference given was book titled No God but God
Richard Bulliet of Columbia U
Dr. Irfan Omar of Marquette University
Andrew Rippin of Univ. of Victoria
and last but not least . . .
familiar toJW/DW regulars, John Esposito of Georgetown U
As for who funded this whitewash - that detail is unclear as I cannot locate that info readily online. But I would bet it resembles the list of financiers of the "Critics of Light, Rise & Fall of Islamic Spain".
When all is said and done . . .yes, it was a
Oops. Small correction to my posting above - the phrase "the Orwellian variety as described in 'Big Brother'" should read "the Orwellian variety as described in '1984'".
Does anyone else see the irony of Bender's receiving funding for his project from a country (Saudi Arabia) in which he is forbiden to step even one foot?
Does anyone else see the irony of Bender's receiving funding for his project from a country (Saudi Arabia) in which he is forbiden to step even one foot?
Does anyone else see any irony in Bender's accepting money for his project from a country in which he is forbidden to set even one foot?
alexon,
In reference to "Cities of Light; The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain", I was impressed by the soundtrack music which accompanied the visuals and spoken words.
Those sad violins played as the paradise of al-Andalus was destroyed by battle and campaign of conquest by the crusaders and Christians. Oh the Horror. But when the muslims won a great battle, buying them a 10 year respite, the music was upbeat, swelling. Then the sad, so sad, music again, as Toledo, and so much of poor, poor al-Andalus, the paradise, was defeated and captured by the Christians.
I'm sorry. I think I forgot to mention that al-Andalus was a paradise. Hey. Didn't you know that al-Andalus was a paradise? The flowers. The warm, sunny palaces. Not like the cold gray stone of those mean gray castles of those other people. Plus didn't you know that muslim spain was directly responsible for the Renaissance, later on, in Western Europe? Hey, al-andalus was a paradise. Did I forget to mention that al-Andalus was a paradise? The flowering gardens. And it was so tolerant. I tell ya. This al-Andalus was a paradise on earth.
Rodney King would have loved the place. Shure ting.
del-
Are you talking about that place during the backward Christian Dark Ages of Europe, in Andalusia, that was a practically a paradise on Earfth because it was full of peaceful, progressive, tolerant, shiny, happy Muslims?
I hear there a new paradise being planned for there.
Started on 3/11.
With some pre-celebratory fireworks.
Why do defenders of Islam feel compelled to lie?
What an outrageous fiction, according to which Spain's recovery of its lost dominion was achieved by 'encroachment' and 'incursion', its success described by the usurping moslems as a 'catastrophe' - sound familiar? That language has worked so well apropos the demonization of Israel, guess they figure they may as well stick with it. And who knew that the Renaissance had its roots in Al-Andalusa - this assertion was slipped in at least twice - a real howler! Italy should sue the film-maker. As already observed here, the Saudis must be relishing the use of our petrodollars to spread their brainwashing ideology, and buy the consciences of those who should know better. Thing is, they must figure we are now sufficiently softened up - or indifferent - not to notice what they're up to with this sort of rubbish. And maybe from their point of view they have reason to, considering our cowering MSM and PC-disabled governments. As Ruebacca said, let's keep our powder dry...
justamomof4 sez:
"I'll be holding my nose while watching this program but it cannot possibly be as bad as Christianne Amanpours CNN "God's Warrior's", can it? "
Worse, much worse. Because Amanwhore's crap comes across as naive and simplistic, but this stiff is more subtle, more deceitful. Its dressed up as history, as fact, as reality, not to be doubted like the Koran, that filthy book. The whole thing is meant to put us back to sleep, to tell us there is nothing to worry about, and there are 'scholars'- respectable, learned people, who are telling us so. On the Saudi payroll, yes. But they won't tell us that.
But what a great piece of work you have done to name & expose all these creeps above who are in on it...
Thanks!
GaryK, I have read all of what you've listed. You obviously believe me to be some ignorant twerp. You're wrong. Unless ignorance means not believing the same things you believe, in which case I'm guilty as charged.
GBA
I think you may have confused others by appearing to subscribe to two mutually exclusive points of view: that Islam is naturally at peace with other religions and also that it is perpetually at war with other religions. Thus, one wonders why you seem to have reacted so defensively to someone whose response to your rather perplexing notion was mostly constructive, if snarky in the margins.
mountainecho, read my post again. I said I subscribe to NEITHER view, not that I subscribe to both.
del, you wrote:
"alexon,
In reference to "Cities of Light; The Rise and Fall of Islamic Spain", I was impressed by the soundtrack music which accompanied the visuals and spoken words.
Those sad violins played as the paradise of al-Andalus was destroyed by battle and campaign of conquest by the crusaders and Christians. Oh the Horror. But when the muslims won a great battle, buying them a 10 year respite, the music was upbeat, swelling. Then the sad, so sad, music again, as Toledo, and so much of poor, poor al-Andalus, the paradise, was defeated and captured by the Christians."
Oh yes, they pulled out all the stops alright. Very effective stuff for your average PBS viewer who is already softened up to think the worst of all things Western or Christian in history. Yes, they slathered on all the goopy sentimentalist crap possible to underline their "Muslim Good, Christian Bad" theme.
Your post-ending Rodney King quip is an unfortunate non-sequitur though. No connection whatsoever.