Turkish secularism poised to leap onto the dustbin of history

Hmmmm...while I'm no seer, it doesn't take a genius to foresee either one of two things in the works...
1) an islamist takeover
2) a military dictatorship
(gee, that wasn't really hard, since that's the only two choices going around in that region)

"...long & healthy war..."

Is Bush "with us or with them"? That is, is he with the forces of relative enlightenment, which in Turkey means Kemalist constrains on Islam, and the secularists, and the Turkish Army that must defend that secularism by, at times, ignoring the retrograde results of head-counting in a Muslim country, and will he give signs of not objecting to, in any way, whatever action that army decides to take (and one worries about the steady Islamic infiltration, at the lower levels, that no doubt has been relentlessly going on)?

Or will he, because of Tarbaby Iraq and the sentimental cause in Tarbaby Iraq of "bringing freedom" and "democracy" (that purple-thumbed affair, in which the Shi'a, knowing the numbers, participated so avidly, and the Sunnis, knowing the numbers, stayed away from so glumly) to "ordinary moms and dads," feel that for consistency's sake (consistency from a man who invokes any argument and pseudo-analogy he can to defend to the end -- he will never understand --the fiasco of Tarbaby Iraq -- from "how long it took" to raise up Occupied Germany and Occupied Japan, to Marshall Plan, to the dangers of this one group ("Al Qaeda") that is apparently set to take over all of Iraq the moment we leave, or if they aren't quite set to do it, then their mortal enemies the Shi'a are set to do it, or if neither is set to do it, then "chaos" and "catastrophe" (whose chaos? whose catastrophe?) will ensue if we listen to the cut-and-runners, and we can't have that, can't have that chaos, that catastrophe, that "instability" and fighting that might -- quelle horreur! -- Iraq's neighbors, can we, because....well, just because. And now it's Vietnam.

Get a grip. Support the Turkish Army in Turkey. Support the Turkish Army, for that matter, if it wants to take a bite out of crime and invade or seize part of Syria, for any damn reason it wants (Kurdistan is another matter, and can be discussed separately).

But is Bush capable of getting a grip on anything? On the Iraq fiasco, on the collapsing bridges, on the climate-threatened cities and towns, on the hollowed-out manufacturing, with those milliions of human sacrifices made on various altars by the High Priests of Globalization (including those of the previous administration who were so eager to get with the program), or on a complete sentence, uttered only with the utmost difficulty by the man who presumes to instruct and protect us, and has spent $880 billion dollars in Iraq because he failed to understand Islam, and failed to find out a thing of significance about Iraq?

So what are the chances he and Rice and the others will semaphore their displeasure with any move by the Turkish Army? They don't want any "obvious" incoherence in their policies, unaware of, or obliviouos to the fact that, their policies are completely, hopelessly, shamelessly incoherent, when it comes to the menace of Islam, already.

Re: Turkish secularism poised to leap onto the dustbin of history

In many ways this is part of the renewed march of fascism, a fascism that gripped much of the world after World War I. That fascism was partly destroyed by the Allied armies during World War II (fascism's first aggressive act) and remained in a Rip Van Islamic state during the Cold War. But with the collapse of the USSR the fascist movements have risen from their long sleep. We are looking at the third act (aggressive expansion a la act 2) of of a three act play with act 1 being post World War I, act 2 being World War II, and the Cold War being intermission.

In order to win this phase of the war against against aggressive-expansionist fascism we must get serious about energy independence. (It is delusional to believe that countries like Saudi Arabia are "allies". Saudi Arabia is the center of the fascist camp.) Unless we get serious about energy the "war on terror" is a farce. Turkey is a symptom of the failure to see reality and get serious on this energy matter. This phase of the war on fascism's aggressive expansion will be won by going to alternative energy.

A smart presidential candidate might propose an "Energy Manhattan Project" and seek election on that. It's time for that.

lol...we can do that tomorrow...just get the eco-gestapo out of the way and it's a done deal.
;-)

Assalamau Laikum all,

So Allah's SWT mercy will show that turkey's once Islamic home is restored. You peoples need not worry ...Turkey will be safe under Islam.

In fact I see this as the start of the model going forward to the Western world too.

You surely cannot change the constitution to specifically say that "this is a christian country and Islam cannot rule supreme"....as this would be seen as a racist slur ...and not allowed...by the kaffur himself.

bizzare do you not think....that these words would seal the fate of the kaffur....but the pen is mightier than the sword in kaffurland....let it be ...it's by choice.

As I have said before...a few decades...when there is a majority of muslims in each region ....MPS/Senators will be muslim and Prime Minister/President will become muslims.

The constituition under these circumstances must favour the majority...therefore will be asked to be changed...in line with Sharia Lite...the wishes of the kaffur must not be forgotten... Sharia Lite does after all must have tenents of democracy to it.

Obviously the behaviour patterns must also change after this point.

When I last came to the UK I saw on daytime TV a program called "the Jeremy Kyle show" hosted by a really cocky kaffur.

However on the program, he had a married couple there and the mother-in-law.

The husband had abondoned his wife and shacked in with the mother (who was obviously 20 years older).

That is such disgusting behaviour and must be brought to heel...I mean talk about inbreeding.........

LOL..."blasphemous balls", anyone?

Excellent. It's a good thing that, when a democratic system gets hijacked by undemocratic forces, it is being put back on track, even when this is done by the army.
Or maybe I should say, particularly if this is done by the inherently non-democratic army, since that has the added benefit of throwing the EU into a hizzy fit, and may very well prevent it from allowing Turkey to become a member state.

jcom972-

Absolutely. What is going on in Turkey part of the end of Rip Van Fascism's siesta. But the way to stop this renewed fascism is to get serious on the energy issue.

That's what I was referring to...get the eco-gestapo out of the way and it's done...tomorrow, no manhattan project needed...just common sense.

Let's see now,

"Forced" secularism isn't it ?

Since the cold war ended:

Almost all of Latin America got rid of their thugs and dictators... Actively participating and claiming their democratif voices in actions and words...

Let's look at how Muslim countries use democraties...

Pakistan - several coups
Malaysia - Sharia law...
Turks - Well, they voted...
Iran - Can we call it a democracy
Algeria - late 80s early 90s, voted for islamists
Result:100 +++ of massacred -
Morocco - The King of...
Jordania - The King of
S. Arabia - no comment
Indonesia - Secularism ??? Remember East Timor ? let's see the rest...
Egypt - They vote for the Muslim Brotherhood
Palestinians - Hamas
Southern Lebanon - Hezbollah
Northen Nigeria - Sharia law
Irak - well no comments

And the list goes on.... In other words, it is how the Muslim dominant world use democracies that is fascinating...

Democracies in the Muslim world is not about vote, it's about the use of demonstration and making pressures... nothing less...

And Turkey is getting right in there...
And the army will be split but... will follow

Does Naseem ever say anything intelligent?

Naseem is not kept here for her displays of intelligence. She is kept here because she puts on display a certain mind-set. She is not, of course, a full-fledged Musli, but a member of the persecuted Ahmadiyyas -- required to register not as "Muslims" but as "Ahmadiyyas" (or Qadianis) by the government of Pakistan, and regarded with suspicion, and discriminated against, and even attacked -- Ahmadiyya mosques are always in danger -- by the real Muslims, the full-bodied sort.

Nonetheless, her confusion, her hopes, her blend of despair and triumphalism, her hope that the entire world, and the Western world whose superiority she recognizes at times and at other times pretends not to recognize (and which in any case she fails to connect to the absence of Islam) will become full of "Wuslims" who, in turn, will transform the awful Islam that surrounds her, and which in order to exist she has managed to convince herself is not the real Islam but something else, something tarnished by the inferior people who are now Muslims -- but just wait till those white Western Europeans and North Americans become Muslims, or "Wuslims" -- and then Islam will be just great.

Naseem is like those loyal Communists in the Soviet Union who, while they recognized that the Soviet Union itself was hell, nonetheless kept waiting for that never-to-appear will-o'-the-wisp of True Communism to appear -- for now the Soviet Union was merely "on the way" to that True Communism, that paradise just beyond the horizon.

True Believers, the kind who can't allow their faith to be shaken but recognize or experience the awfulness of their True Faith (Islam or Communism), always have a way to hold out Hope For A Better Tomorrow.

And that is one of the things about Naseem that is so instructive. She's on exhibit. We can examine her, without inviting her to lie on the psychiatrit's couch. At times her rambles have a Molly-Bloom hauntingness about them; her blend of despair and hope, about Islam and "Wuslims," is telling. Her thoughts offer an Exhibit. Not Exhibit A, but an Exhibit.

A student looking for a good paper topic could do worse than to systematically examine the postings of "Naseem" and what they can tell us about the psychology of Muslims, keeping in mind that she is 1) a member of the persecuted Ahmadiyyas 2) lives in Pakistan 3) has relatives -- a son? -- in England 4) is worried about her situation in Pakistan, a place that fills her with horror 5) chooses to believe that the West is even worse but will be rescued by the inevitable takeover by Islam, made possible by immigration and campaigns of Da'wa that will offer the One True Faith as a solution to all the problems of the messy and decadent West and 6) in turn, those "New Muslims" or "Wuslims" will indeed rescue, by transforming, Islam itself -- and rescue Naseem or her ilk from the bad, brown-skinned Muslims who don't understand or don't properly put into effect Islam, wonderful Islam, the way those white Europoeans and Americans will naturally be able to do, since they, you see, can do anything.

Triumphalism, and abasement, self-flagellation, and o'erweening blind pride.

Naseem: A Portrait.

Go ahead, students. High school, college, graduate school. Her copious testimony, taken from her very own psychiatric sessions, held by herself somewhere in Pakistan or England and then set down at this website, is on-line and there for the taking. No tape-transcription necessary.

Take the opportunity Naseem has so kindly provided. Analyze This.

It's difficult, I find, not to have very deep sympathy for those born into the mind-controlling death cult we call islam. When you have seen the damage that it does to reason, the twists and inversions and doublethink that it requires of its followers from the cradle, then one appreciates what an absolute miracle it is that the Hirsi Alis of this world manage to break away, to breathe the cool clean air of free thought.

And our wonderful Naseem is such a great example - Islam is wonderful, perfect, Allah's perfection on Earth...but of course, it might be improved by an influx of 'new' muslims. Complete, stone-cold contradictions in every other sentence.

As to Turkey - well, at least there's almost zero chance now of the eurocrats allowing them into the EU. The march back to the stone age of all islamic people given the opportunity to progress continues unabated.

I think its good idea keeping Naseem here Hugh. I wholehearly agree with you. She is a good insight into the mind of the enemy. Plus the fact that unlike some sites, everyone can express their opinion. Here that rachelstavern?:-)

Naseem -

If you think most westerners are like the revolting, low life trailer trash you see on such shows, you are even stupider than most people who watch them.

Elric66,

Rachel has made a concession of sorts. Allowing JW posters comments in relation to the Amanpour "documentary".

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=677#comments

Apparently, Islam was in desperate need of another toilet in the region. Turkey it seems, is ready to oblige.

Turk Al-Port-O-San. It has a nice ring to it.

In each of the four Turkish post WWII military putsches (1960, 1971, 1980 and 1997), the military junta returned the reins of power to secular civilian authorities. However, in each of the four they also disbanded parliament and suspended the nation's Constitution.

You can liken the Turkish Democracy to the British democratic monarchy, with the only difference being that the Queen would have the ability to mobilize 100,000 troops at the snap of her Royal fingers to dispose of a troublesome Parliament.

That doesn't sit well with the West, but it's a system that's worked well in that nation for generations.

The Turkish Armed Forces will not permit a civilian government to institute any flavor of Shari'ah Law. The tanks will be in the streets before the ink is dry on the legislation. If the civilian authorities resist, they will be arrested and treated to the legendary hospitality of the Turkish correctional system. After a short while of brutal crackdowns on Islamists from the Caucuses to Constantinople, the military will reinstate the Constitution, allow the convening of Parliament and the holding of new elections. And if the Islamists try their schtick again, the tanks will be in the streets again.

"It puts the lotion on its skin, or it gets the hose again."

What's "Let's roll!" in Turkish?

What's "Let's roll!" in Turkish?

What's "Let's roll!" in Turkish?

If the Army intervenes and stops the Islamization of Turkey, Bush & Co. will make some public statement decrying the loss of democracy in Turkey. After all according to the Bush Philosophy, democracy is the answer isn't it?

If a military junta does take power, Bush might try the ole sanctions ploy as one means to restore "democracy" to Turkey. Somehow a democratically elected Islamic government is less threatening than a dictatorial Islamic government? Is that the Bush policy?

Is the Turkish Army a largely conscript force of short service soldiers, or are serving troops primarily volunteers? I have to wonder if the interest in preserving a secular state is confined to their officer corps, or if it extends downward to include NCO's and private soldiers.

Naseem - In Kaffirstan you will find much behavior that will shock you. Our society is willing to put up with behavior that you and I may find despicible in the name of individual freedom. For most Americans (and for many Europeans) liberty does not mean allowing only those activites of which we personally approve, but tolerating many things we don't like. Several times in my own life (military service and civilian police) I have taken a solemn oath to protect and defend the United State Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. For me, this was as serious as a heart attack.

Mohammad married his son's wife. Forcing them to divorce so he could marry and satisfy his lust for her. Why is that acceptable?

I think I know of at least 2 phone calls bush made today. the first was to Gul to congratulate him on his election. the second was to the head of the Turkish Armed Forces warning him against meddling in politics. I'm glad our president's so decisive.

to bush & rice, democracy in the Middle East is an end in itself. to the muslims, it is merely a means to an end -- an islamic state.

I think I know of at least 2 phone calls bush made today. the first was to Gul to congratulate him on his election. the second was to the head of the Turkish Armed Forces warning him against meddling in politics. I'm glad our president's so decisive.

to bush & rice, democracy in the Middle East is an end in itself. to the muslims, it is merely a means to an end -- an islamic state.

If only Islamic ideology could do the same.

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Hugh,

You are right that the so-called "Enlightened Despots" have had a long and often productive history. In a sense, I think what they did was use the Western ideas of a secular nation-state to modernize the country. They replaced religious and tribal affiliations with a national affiliation, to the overall benefit of their populations.

But you forgot something, I think. THE chief benefit that the Turks and Iranians (and Syrians and Iraqis) got from the despots was the removal of imperialism. The so-called "Arab nationalist" movements were initially popular because even though they used Western values, they used it to get the imperialists out. Unfortunately, the despots have not held up their end of the bargain, which is allowing the people of the Moslem World to chart their own destiny.

Islamism is now the rising and dominant trend within the Moslem World for precisely this reason. Western-style nationalism hasn't fullfilled its promise, so Moslems are turning to the other identity that is truly "theirs" besides nationality: Islam. At the same time, the Islamists often denounce the despots as "collaborators" because their ideologies are basically Western. The people believe it, and all the more with every peaceful protest that is brutally suppressed.

The Enlightened Despots are all on their way out. Their moment has passed, and they have failed. Every country in the Moslem World will be more Islamist twenty years from now than it is today. This is clear from Somalia to Pakistan to Turkey. Our only question, then, is what to do next. We could either strengthen the more moderate (less Jihadist) group of Islamists, or we can continue a futile fight against the future until it bowls us over.

I am very glad you mentioned Iraq, and think your analysis is dead-on. Iraq should serve as a warning about the future of other Islamist countries. In countries like Pakistan and Turkey, both the authoritarians and Jihadis face their greatest threat from the moderate Islamists, whose grassroots movement threatens top-down dictatorships and whose relatively peaceful methods saps Jihadists' strength. But if we wait another twenty years promote democracy, there is no hope. By then, the more moderate Islamist leaders will all be dead, either by government crackdowns or suicide bombings. By then, all that will be left is Jihadis like the Mahdi Army, because the making of a true democracy will be nerve-gassed beyond recognition. So we must act NOW to prevent a crackdown, so that neither of these countries become Iraq.