Final Exam:
Another of the group, Yu Jung-hwa, described how she thought she was going to die.
"The most difficult moment, when I had a big fear of death, was when the Taleban shot [a] video.
"All 23 of us leaned against a wall and armed Taleban aimed their guns at us, and a pit was before me.
"They said they will save us if we believe in Islam. I almost fainted at the time and I still cannot look at cameras," she said.
Passage #2:
Qur'an 2.256: "There is no compulsion in religion."
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Discuss Passages #1 and #2. You may bring in any additional knowledge you may have from your other reading on the 1350-year history of Islam. For this you may touch on:
1) Recent scholarship on the origins of Islam -- John Wansbrough, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, Yehuda Nevo, Gerd Puin, Christoph Luxenburg et al.
2) The definiition of dar al-Islam and of dar al-Harb, and the relationship that is to be established between the two.
3) The basis for all Muslim jurisprudence pertaining to treaties and agreements with Infidels -- that is, the Treaty of al-Hudaibiyya.
4) The concept of Muhammad as a "perfect man" and the behavior of Muhammad in his 78 military campaigns, including the stated reason for the campaign against the Jews of the Khaybar oasis, and the execution of the Jews of the Bani Qurayza taken prisoner.
5) Sura 9:29 of the Qur'an.
6) The doctrine of naskh, or abrogation.
7) What the word "Sunnah" comprises, and the contents of some of the best-known hadith (stories about the acts and sayings of Muhammad) that express the correct Muslim attitude toward Infidels.
8) The Qur'anic verses pertaining to women. The most relevant hadith pertaining to women. The women in Muhammad's life, including the story of his last, and favorite, wife -- young Aisha, whom he married when she was 6, but demurely waited to consummate the marriage when she was 9 years old. The significance, or lack of it, of this part of Muhammad's life for Muslims today.
9) The atittude toward the Christian belief in the divinity of Christ. The relevant passages in the Qur'an about believers in "shirk."
10) The concept of the kuffar. What is the Bilad al-Kufr? Why is it now permissible, as it once was not, for Muslims to migrate to the Bilad al-Kufr and live there? What do the Muslim websites explain?
11) What does the phrase "umma al-islamiyya" mean? Do whom, or to what, must Muslims owe their allegiance? Are they permitted to owe their allegiance or loyalty to anything else? Could they ever possibly fight on the side of Infidel fellow-citizens against Muslims from another country?
12) What is the concept of "taqiyya"? Does it differ from "kitman"? People of all religions lie, but is there another religion that formally sanctions lying in order to protect that religion or its Believers?
13) How are Jesus and Moses viewed in Islam?
14) What are the "djinn" in the Qur'an and where to they come from?
15) When was the Qur'an written? Over what period of time? And who wrote it down, if Muhammad was "unlettered"? And who dictated it? Why are there so many elements of both the Old and the New Testament to be found in the Qur'an? Which came first?
16) Why did the original Arab conquerors have such astounding success in subduing large swaths of territory? Did the belief-system they brought with them help or hinder that success, in the light of what you now know about Islam?
17) Can the hadith that are regarded as "authentic" be changed? That is, can one simply get rid of those hadith that say unkind things about Infidels?
18) Why are those who are Muslims not allowed to change their religion without the threat of severe punishment, including death?
19) Why do Muslims call Infidels who become Muslims "reverts" rather than "converts"?
20) What does the word "dhimmi" mean? What are the ahl al-dhimma? What is the "pact" that was made between the Muslims and the "People of the Book" who were allowed to live, and even practice their religion, under certain conditions? What requirements were laid upon the dhimmis in order that they might be treated as such? What does it mean to be a "protected people" -- "protected" from what, exactly?
21) Was Islamic Spain a paradise of interfaith harmony, that it would be advisable to try to reproduce today, if only we could?
22) What are the vast benefits that either "interfaith dialogue" or a "dialogue of civilisations" can bring to us?
Oh, this is just a start. Come to think of it, this little quiz is useful not only in Tulsa, but in New York and Washington.
Here is what I propose. Everybody, anybody, who wishes to utter a word about Islam, or about the relation of the tenets of Islam to how Muslims actually treat non-Muslims, and have done so for 1350 years, will have to take this test.
Time allotted: as much as you want.
If you want to go to the bathroom, the proctors will escort you.
Please write on only one side of the blue book.
Good luck!
I am full of a mixture of pride and sadness when I read the last words of the leader who was executed, "Overcome with faith"...
This was my brother in Christ, this leader. I am proud to be associated with him, and the One we both follow.
And I know there is a day coming when all the evil purposed in the name of Islam will be avenged and that right quickly.
Islam is a lie, founded on lies, authored by the father of lies. It's fruit of death, terror and slavery speak for itself.
Come quickly, Lord.
Qur'an 2.256: "There is no compulsion in religion."
Is an abrogated verse, it has been replaced with verses telling muslims to fight and kill until only muslims remain.
Any true muslim could easily answer this one. It is obvious: These Taliban are not muslims and do not represent the true peaceful nature of islam.
I heard a muslim call in to a radio talk show yesterday (9/11) and say profiling was useless because the 9/11 terrorists fit no profile and EVERYONE knows they were certainly not muslims, as it has been so proven.
How does one reason with the unreasonable?
One simply does not.
How does one reason with the unreasonable?
One simply does not.
Posted by: cumulusnine at September 12, 2007 2:49 PM
Add all that you hear(not see) about Islam and it can be summed up in one word: "deciet".
As the prophet said: "War is deciet".
Now don;t ask silly qurestions like: "How does one reason with deciet"? The very nature of deciet is to defeat reason.
How does one reason with the unreasonable?
One simply does not.
Posted by: cumulusnine at September 12, 2007 2:49 PM
Add all that you hear(not see) about Islam and it can be summed up in one word: "deciet". As the prophet said: "War is deciet".
Now don't ask silly qurestions like: "How does one reason with deciet"? The very nature of deciet is to defeat reason.
Islamic taquiyya answer: Passage #2 demonstrates that the Taliban - in passage #1 - misunderstands, distorts or misrepresents Islam! Also, with 2:256, throw in a dash of 5:32 (carefully leaving out 2:257, 2:193 and 5:33).
If you want to go to the bathroom, note that there are no footwash basins.
Dear brothers and sisters in islam:
We live in kuffar country and daily we have to face the infidels who criticize islam and our prophet, and who want to debate us. In an Islamic country if some one did that all we have to do is to announce loudly what he said and the rest is taken care of by an angry mob. The critic is lynched in no time. End of the story. However here we don't have that luxury as yet. Inshallah in forseeble future after we grow by conversions of morons and criminals in prisons, legal and illegal immigration and procreation we will,inshallah, become a majority and will not have to face this problem on daily basis. However, for the time being following is an approach all muslim brothers and sisters can use when faced with such a pest. Jazakallah Khair. Inshallah the vermin will steer clear of you in future.
1. A popular question is "why islam calls for death of Islamic critics and apostates". Insist that their info is false. Quote aya "to you your religion and to me my religion".
2. To answer "Islam spread with sword", say that it is a big lie spread by the jews and hindus and that quran clearly says " there is no compulsion in religion".
3. If some one quotes violent ayas from Koran, accuse him of quoting ayas in bits and pieces and cherry picking .
4. If he then quotes full ayas and ayas before and after, than insist that the translation is wrong.
5. If he brings ten different translations than say correct meanings can be understood only by reading Quran in Arabic.
6. If he happens to be well versed in Arabic language than insist that those ayas don\'t mean what they appear to mean as they have allegorical meanings.
7. If he is adamant, than say you cannot understand those ayas and it\'s context without reading hadith and sira.
8.. If he shows up with the hadiths and siras in hand and quotes the context of the violent ayas by referring to hadiths of prophet\'s rapes, robberies , assassinations and genocides then insist that "all hadiths and siras are heresay and are false, and only truth is in quran.
9. If he says Quran is a man made document and wants proof of it\'s divinity then refer to the sciences in Quran and the book written by Dr. Bucaile confirming the sciences in our holy book. You can also quote that Mahatama Gandhi read Quran daily and also spoke highly of it.
10. If he says that Bucaile was on Saudi payroll and that nor he nor Gandhi ever changed their religions and that Bucaile was challenged and proven wrong by many experts then challenge him to ask his experts to debate islamists like Zakir Naik..
11. If the pests still hangs around then change the topic and find faults in other religions and their books.
12. If he continues on then use personal attacks and insult him by calling him a jewish a- hole , a Chinese pig or a hindu dog .
13. If that does not frustrate him, then ask him how much he is being paid by jews to throw dirt on Al Islam.
14. If he still does not stop then run for his mother and sister and use very filthy language.
cumulusnine:
Any true muslim could easily answer this one. It is obvious: These Taliban are not muslims and do not represent the true peaceful nature of islam.
What true peaceful nature?
You mean when it say is in the Quran 47:4
"So, when you meet (in fight Jihâd in Allâh's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them" is that peaceful?
Or Surah 9, reckoned to be the last surah revealed to Muhammad (MHRIHWSAVAAB): "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and beseige them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - is that peaceful?
Or the fact that Muhammad personally fought in 15 battles - is that peaceful.
Or the fact that Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, & Ali between 632AD - 661AD, Muhammads companions, said to be rightfully guided
Raided Iraq in 633AD
Invaded Damascus in 635AD
Invaded rest of Syria in 637AD
Invaded Jerusalem in 637AD
Invaded Alexander in 641AD
Invaded rest of Egypt in 642AD
Campaigns in parts of North Africa in 647AD
Invaded Cyprus in 647AD
Invasion of France
Then there is invasion of Spain for 700 years
- all of this is the action of Islam, said to be peaceful, right?
cumulusnine you dont even know what true Muslims have done. The Taliban are not doing anything different than Muhammad MHRIHWSAVAAB), Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman & Ali have done, it is exactly the same. And what the Taliban do, has support in the Quran.
I heard a muslim call in to a radio talk show yesterday (9/11) and say profiling was useless because the 9/11 terrorists fit no profile...
Your right on this. I would expel all Muslims from all Western countries - they are not to be trusted.
...and EVERYONE knows they were certainly not muslims, as it has been so proven.
Proven where?.
It can be argued that if they fighting in the cause of Allah against unbelievers then they are true Muslims.
cumulusnine you dont have a leg to stand one.
The Quran says you are incorrect.
The Hadith says you are incorrect.
The Sira says you are incorrect.
And the actions of Muhammads comapnions in history says you are incorrect.
If you are a Muslim, you dont know your own history or your own holy book(s).
cumulusnine:
Any true muslim could easily answer this one. It is obvious: These Taliban are not muslims and do not represent the true peaceful nature of islam.
What true peaceful nature?
You mean when it say is in the Quran 47:4
"So, when you meet (in fight Jihâd in Allâh's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them" is that peaceful?
Or Surah 9, reckoned to be the last surah revealed to Muhammad (MHRIHWSAVAAB): "Slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and beseige them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." - is that peaceful?
Or the fact that Muhammad personally fought in 15 battles - is that peaceful.
Or the fact that Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, & Ali between 632AD - 661AD, Muhammads companions, said to be rightfully guided
Raided Iraq in 633AD
Invaded Damascus in 635AD
Invaded rest of Syria in 637AD
Invaded Jerusalem in 637AD
Invaded Alexander in 641AD
Invaded rest of Egypt in 642AD
Campaigns in parts of North Africa in 647AD
Invaded Cyprus in 647AD
Invasion of France
Then there is invasion of Spain for 700 years
- all of this is the action of Islam, said to be peaceful, right?
cumulusnine you dont even know what true Muslims have done. The Taliban are not doing anything different than Muhammad MHRIHWSAVAAB), Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman & Ali have done, it is exactly the same. And what the Taliban do, has support in the Quran.
I heard a muslim call in to a radio talk show yesterday (9/11) and say profiling was useless because the 9/11 terrorists fit no profile...
Your right on this. I would expel all Muslims from all Western countries - they are not to be trusted.
...and EVERYONE knows they were certainly not muslims, as it has been so proven.
Proven where?.
It can be argued that if they fighting in the cause of Allah against unbelievers then they are true Muslims.
cumulusnine you dont have a leg to stand on.
The Quran says you are incorrect.
The Hadith says you are incorrect.
The Sira says you are incorrect.
And the actions of Muhammads comapnions in history says you are incorrect.
If you are a Muslim, you dont know your own history or your own holy book(s).
Ynkedoodl2
That was priceless ;-)
This would all magically go away if we elected Ron Paul, you know!
UK Infidel Lover, uhh, cumulusnine was, uhh, oh never mind.
Obviously the taleban do not follow or havent read the Quran passage quote.
Yes I know, I get a failing grade.
Thanks special_guest.
UK Infidel Lover, I'm sorry you took my post so literally that you entirely missed the fact that I was merely illustrating how impossible it is when dealing with islam to convince a muslim that much violence is committed by muslims.
They will almost always say that those committing violence ARE NOT MUSLIMS, as though this were obvious to anyone, since muslims do not (in their mind) commit violence.
Many muslims cannot imagine that the 9/11 acts were committed by muslims, or even by arabs. In their mind there is plenty of "evidence" that "proves" this. Unfortunately they often point to the lunatics in this country that believe that Bush arranged the whole thing.
It is frustrating to try to reason with a muslim (or an islam apologist) by pointing out facts and patterns, only to find that your evidence-based argument is meaningless (since you don't understand arabic, and therefore could not understand the true meaning of the Quran), and then, just when you think you've given irrefutable evidence to back up your argument, you are shot down with the "I" word: islamophobe.
cumulusnine
"how impossible it is when dealing with islam to convince a muslim that much violence is committed by muslims"
No a lot of them admit that muslims have committed violence. However the people trying to do the convincing tend to forget that different people believe in religion to varying degrees.
A lot of people also tend to say
a. The Quran has some violent passages, abrogation. islam is violent (points to various examples in history, terrorists)
b. Some muslims use this to commit to violence(there are other reasons too why they commit violence)
c. Therefore the Quran/islam is responsible for the violence
d. Therefore the other muslims will also at sometime follow this violent quran/islam and will be the same as the muslims in b.
Most logical people find c. and d. to be a Non sequitur. So if i try to argue against the conclusion in d. you believe i am commenting about b.
Cerebate, I agree with your statements. Perhaps I was too sloppy in my writing. I did not intend to suggest that all people who consider themselves muslims will follow the violent passages in the Quran, or that all muslims are violent. In fact, I could not offer evidence to support such a statement.
I was only trying to point out that many muslims specifically state that the Quran is the basis for their violence and use it to bolster and justify continued jihad. They consider themselves to be following the true islam.
I am also in agreement that many muslims admit that other muslims commit acts of violence and use passages in the Quran as justification.
But I specifically referenced a caller on a talk radio program who said he was a muslim and claimed that because the 9/11 hijackers used violence, they could not have been true muslims.
Islam is a peaceful religion.
Muslims are peaceful.
Hijackers committed acts of violence.
Therefore Hijackers could not be muslims.
To me, that line of reasoning doesn't follow either. But I hear it a lot.
There is a particularly interesting video put out by MEMRI.org that translates from arabic to English many of the views expressed by muslims about who committed the 9/11 attacks. It is called "Bridging the Language Gap." Lots of video clips from Egyptian and Saudi Arabian television stations.
No doubt there are many muslims all around us who want nothing to do with violence or jihad or foot baths, or the hijab or burka, etc. But that doesn't do anything to change those who do.
Right, as we all know, that's an abrogated verse.
And how, eh?
" What does the word "dhimmi" mean? What are the ahl al-dhimma? What is the "pact" that was made between the Muslims and the "People of the Book" who were allowed to live, and even practice their religion, under certain conditions? What requirements were laid upon the dhimmis in order that they might be treated as such? What does it mean to be a "protected people" -- "protected" from what, exactly?"
.....I have not heard a Muslim give an answer to this question....
cumulusnine
what a surprise , i agree with somethings that you posted, probably a first for me and a jihadwatch poster.
"To me, that line of reasoning doesn't follow either. But I hear it a lot"
No it doesnt and i agree.
I normally hear from muslims, "yes they were wrong but.." and some lame justification here involving how they are persecuted/interfered with/demonised. Though i think things are improving.