Jordan: Restaurants forced to close for Ramadan

"Jordan has a Christian minority of around 5 per cent"

from the article above.
----------------------------

Although Jordan officially says there are around 300,000 Christians the numbers are actually much higher due to Muslim officials purposely under-counting minorities and Christians often not specifying their religion. In fact, the Christian population is between 10-15 percent or around one million.

A just solution to this discrimination would be for Israel to establish a Christian Palestinian state in the "West Bank" and Nazareth triangle by forcing a population exchange. Jordanian Christians would join their Christian Palestinian brothers in this new state while all the Muslims in Israel and Palestine would be relocated to Jordan. This new Christian state would be in confederation with Israel and would welcome having a large Jewish minority while Jewish Israel would also protect its Christian minority. The capital of Christian Palestine would be either Ramallah or Bethlehem.

Because the two states would be in confederation, Jews living in Bethlehem, Hebron or Jenin would be able to vote in Israel while Christians living in Haifa or Jerusalem would be able to vote in Palestine. Since Jews and Christians are not a threat to each other, they can have open borders between them. The military of Christian Palestine would be fully integrated with the IDF.

This is important for security since Islam is an equal threat to both Jews and Palestinian Christians. Also the current borders of Israel are undefendable, while the joint borders of this new Jewish-Christian confederation would be easily defendable against Muslim Jordan. Also the Jordan River is a natural border so Israel would not have to mar the land with ugly walls. In the long term, this defense confederation could be extended to include a new Christian Lebanon and and independent Christian Assyria.

I rather they close Ramadam

....how does the interior ministry know which restaurants serve tourists and those that do not...

It's Jordan and, frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!

How about all North American Mosques forced to close for the Christmas season?

What kind of headlines would we have had until recently in America? "Restaurants forced to close on Sundays". That's 52 days per year, not the 29-30 days of Ramadan.

I have no problem with countries enacting restrictions on commerce for holy days. That used to be common practice throughout Christendom. I just don't want them going into people's homes and investigating their degree of observance.

I do not understand what this story is doing at DW. In this story from an almost completely Muslim country, no individual Christians have been arrested for eating inside their homes. This is as much a non-story as a Muslim American unable to use government services on Christmas. Horrors!

Sorry to disagree with Provoslavni. The Holy Land was promised in its entirety to the Jews in an eternal covenant. There are Christian citizens there already. I'm afraid a country half the size of San Bernardino County, California isn't large enough to sustain two viable states. Your plans should be directed at Lebanon, an adjacent former Christian-majority Arab state.

Surak

Forcing independent businesses to close - regardless of whether they observe any religion or not - seems rather harsh. While I understand the arguments that are made that give US state and local authorities such powers, I don't believe that any such entity should have the power to force any business to close on certain days. For instance, there are businesses that are open on holidays like Memorial Day - like groceries and certain restaurants. It's okay for the government itself to close on such days, but not force independent businesses to do that.

As for Judea and Samaria, I have no problems with Jews annexing it all. Problem is - I don't see anybody implementing what in Israel is known as the 'Transfer' solution - the expulsion of all Muslims from the area. In the absense of that, Provoslavni's suggestion - that Christians be taken in - is certainly preferable to places like Bethlehem, Hebron, Jericho and Nablus being Islamized. I'd make the exception for Islamo-Christians however - Israel doesn't deserve more Azmi Bisharas.

From what I understand, Lebanese Maronites aren't Arabs - we can't dump Pali Christians on them.

I'm a great believer in "When in Rome...", and as a visitor, strive to adapt as much as possible to local useage. If in Jordan during ramadan, I would not expect them to accomodate me by making food or drink available during daylight hours. Likewise, Muslims in the West should not expect special accomodation during ramadan. I'll have the pulled pork sammich, fries, a kosher dill and a Heineken, please.

Surak,

Re: "The Holy Land was promised in its entirety to the Jews in an eternal covenant."

Read the Torah. Actually it was promised to Abraham, then Yitzhak, then Yakov and their decendants. This covenant was renewed to Moshe and implemented by Joshua. Like the Jews, Pali Christians are descendants of Yitzhak and Yakov, not of Ishmael like the Arabs. The ancestors of the Pali Christians are, for the most part, those Judeans and Galileans who were Jesus' original followers, with some later Byzantine admixtures thrown in. They are by blood, no more Arab than the Greeks, Lebanese, or Assyrians.

Unfortunately, the current Israeli government is as dhimmi as the worst of the self-appointed Pali-Christian "leaders" both seemingly intent on surrendering the last of the Holy Land (Éretz haKodesh) to the Hagarene Arab invaders. The indigenous peoples of Judea, Samaria, and the Galil (both Jewish and Christian) must put aside their differences and stand together if they do not want to be drowned in the Muslim tide. My solution of a Jewish-Christian two-state confederation after expelling the Muslims would accomplish just that.

As for the Jordanian Christians, most of them are decendants of ancient Idumeans and Nabateans, nations that became Jewish before they became Christian. The Torah warns Jews not to oppress the Edomites "for he is your brother".

Their land was originally S.W. Jordan and the Negev before being defeated by King Saul of Israel in the late 1000s BCE. Forty years later King David and his general Joab defeated the Edomites in the "valley of salt," (probably near the Dead Sea). An Edomite prince named Hadad escaped and fled to Egypt, and after David's death returned and tried to start a rebellion, but failed and went to Syria. From that time Edom remained a vassal of Israel, converting to Judaism. Later these quasi-Jews became one of the first Christian nations known as the Ghassanids until the Muslims snuffed out their independence.

So, I believe my proposal is not only strategically valid, but is biblically justified. Either way it is better than surrendering to the Muslims.

So, I believe my proposal is not only strategically valid, but is biblically justified. Either way it is better than surrendering to the Muslims.
Posted by: Provoslavni

Very well thought-out and absolutely feasible. Only imagine the HOWLING at the UN. They don't want to see a viable prosperous Israel in the Middle East. Oh, Vanessa Redgrave would be spinning in her grave!

Maybe a government change in Israel...

Todays news....in pathetic PC Britain...

Scottish primary school children are to be forced by the education authorities to visit mosques in order to better understand Islam in the wake of the Scottish airport bombers.

As usaual, the self-loathing PC brigade want our children to become more tolerant....how about the muslim kids being forced to attend Christian churches every week to better undestand the sociey their parents have chosen to live in?

Why ask, thats far too "right wing" an idea and might upset the muslim "community" and detract from "community cohesion."

How about my right to find this offensive?

Every appeasement is the thin end of a thicker wedge of Islamisation.

This week on national television, an Imam has stated that British muslim apostates should not face any problems with their muslim brothers in the country....a blatant lie and yet the soppy liberal lefty media just don't get the fact that Islamics are authorised to lie in the protection and furtherance of their cult.

The journalist tried to further "balance" the programme by "uncovering" a a few (9) American Evangelical christians it was claimed (by who?)had been targeting vulnerable muslims for conversion and causing "tension" in the community.

What crap.......please, please...let something happen for muslims to openly declare war on the British people now...and then our brave soldiers can return from helping muslims in Iraq and do the real job here.

I have a radical idea.....

we must isolate muslims because we know they cannot run complex societies....could you honestly imagine muslims running London alone...when would they find time to pray and who would pay their social security?

Britain is becoming a Marxist PC hellhole...with the already isolated and insulated PC elite destroying their country whilst thinking that things will never change for themselves.

I think America should turn its back on this Britain and give an open invite for say two years for any Britain who wished to live in America to do so...excluding muslims, criminals, undesirables etc.....the PC elite of Britain could also be easily identified and they MUST be excluded.

Its only a "rough" idea at the moment.....but this would leave a Britain at the mercy of muslims and the PC brigade and apologists could then live and work in a sharia country....just think what an economic powerhouse "new Britain" would be with prayers 5 times a day and suppression of any inventive free thought....why they could live in the thirteenth century again....yipeeh

Of course, they would be free to live "peaceably" as they insist is their aim.....so any weapons of mass destruction would have been forcibly removed at the start of their new country by by the West who need then to really keep the peace.

America......Britain is fast becoming a TWO_FACED PC LIABILITY TO YOU with arrogant PC BBC journalist sneering at the US and your political decisions ...the UK needs to be given a rude awakening.....

I have heard Indonesia and Malaysia laughably called modern and moderate, I never heard Jordan referred to as such..

Now or Then, Can You Tell??
September 19th, 2007 — Eagle

http://eaglespearlsofwisdom.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/now-or-then-can-you-tell/#respond

I think he used some jihadwatch comments. LOL

Christians in oh-so-tolerant Islamic Spain had to be circumcised and eat the muslim way.

E;rc66:

Yes it seems he did use some unmoderated and immoderate comments.

payingattention ,

He also supports the Muslim dentist. That really says it all.

But, if they close the restaurants, then the fast is made meaningless, because there is no temptation being resisted.

Easy not to go have a meal if all the eateries are closed.

They cannot restraint themselves, so they try to restrain everyone else.

Islamic logic.

Provoslavni's plan is the best one I have seen in a long time. Population transfers were the basis of the current peace in Central Europe (Poland/Germany/Russia/Ukraine) and between Greece and Turkey. I believe it is the best hope for peace in the Levant as well. I would like to see all of the Syrian Christains transferred into Lebanon while the Iraqi and Jordanian ones should be transferred into the West Bank and the Galilee.

Provoslavni's plan is the best one I have seen in a long time. Population transfers were the basis of the current peace in Central Europe (Poland/Germany/Russia/Ukraine) and between Greece and Turkey. I believe it is the best hope for peace in the Levant as well. I would like to see all of the Syrian Christains transferred into Lebanon while the Iraqi and Jordanian ones should be transferred into the West Bank and the Galilee.

Provoslavni's plan is the best one I have seen in a long time. Population transfers were the basis of the current peace in Central Europe (Poland/Germany/Russia/Ukraine) and between Greece and Turkey. I believe it is the best hope for peace in the Levant as well. I would like to see all of the Syrian Christains transferred into Lebanon while the Iraqi and Jordanian ones should be transferred into the West Bank and the Galilee.

Provoslavni's plan is the best one I have seen in a long time. Population transfers were the basis of the current peace in Central Europe (Poland/Germany/Russia/Ukraine) and between Greece and Turkey. I believe it is the best hope for peace in the Levant as well. I would like to see all of the Syrian Christains transferred into Lebanon while the Iraqi and Jordanian ones should be transferred into the West Bank and the Galilee.

Let me see if I understand this. Christendom has, off the top of my head, I'd guess about 100 countries, including 5 of the 6 largest (in area), with about 150 times the number of Jews in the world. Israel takes up 0.02% of the world's area. You agree that it would be terrible to carve out of this tiny state, half the size of San Bernardino County, California, a new Muslim state. You think it would be a great idea to carve a new Christian state out of Israel, however. No thanks. The Christian world is huge (speaking of population transfers!), and they can accomodate their brethren as much as Israel has for Jewish refugees from the Middle East. Also, people with Jewish ancestors who have converted to any other religion have renounced the Sinai covenant, and are not entitled to set up on the Holy Land of Israel.

Surak,

These Christians are INDIGENOUS to the Land. They have always lived in Bethlehem, Nazareth, etc. and created Ramallah. The Muslims are outside squatters. It was attitudes such as yours in the Haganah back in 1948 that drove many short-sighted Pali Christians into the arms of the Muslims and created idiots such as Azmi Bishara. Fortunately, the Irgun had more foresight and was able to distinqish between Christians and Muslims instead of lumping them all together as "Arabs". Even to this day, Israeli Christians make up some of Likud's most loyal voters while the support for sell-outs like Bishara is from the Muslims and the Euro-American Left, not to mention the suicidal Israeli left.

I've seen similar arguments from Hamas officials who often claim that since Germany is so large, after the holocaust Israel should have been created in Germany instead of "tiny" Palestine. There are many Egyptian politicians who argue the Copts have no rights in their ancient homeland since they can leave Egyst and move to somewhere in big Christendom. These arguments follow the same logic as yours but are equally fallacious. Facts are Facts. It is the Muslims who are the invaders and unless Jews and Christians stand together, they will all perish together.

Let's carve out a chunk of Egypt give it to the Jews, since the pre-Exodus Jews built some of it. Maybe they should have kept the Sanai as reparations.

FreeSpeech, circumcision in America is still a common practice with Protestants and Catholics. I can assure you that in high school Phys. Ed. I saw that uncircumcised males were very, very few. I imagine that it was also common in pre-Islamic Spain.

Surak

I normally don't sympathize with Pali Christians, but I have to agree with Provoslavni on this one. You don't exactly have the Christian equivalent of the Ummah, and you can't exactly send, say, Pakistani Christians to Russia because both are Christian: the former would be totally lost in their new country, the superficial religious similarities notwithstanding. There are other variables that make them vastly different.

Sure, Israel did a great job absorbing Jews worldwide - but note, there was a great deal of assimilation that those Jews did - forsake their national identities for a Hebrew one. Nothing wrong with that, since the Jews are both a religion and an ethnic group (although it does leave the impression that a non-Semite who chooses to convert to Judaism would have to embrace a new Hebrew identity over his/her native one). But that's not true about Christians: even if one were to take into account differences between various sects, you can't have, say, Pali Melkite Catholics all sent to, say, Brazil on the grounds that both are Catholics.

Similarly, people in a lot of these countries have freedom of religion: simply converting to something shouldn't automatically give one the right to the citizenship of another country. I understand how Israel is the one country that gives any Jew on earth the right to their citizenship, but you can't extrapolate that model to other religions: if someone, who has nothing to do with India, were to convert to Hindusism, (s)he would not be granted Indian citizenship for that reason alone.

The entire Ramadan fasting ritual isn't even fasting in my mind. Is is a postponement of eating, and eating is more properly described as gorging. Nothing is given up, just put off.

Gorge before sunrise, gorge after sunset. Many Muslims actually gain weight during Ramadan because they eat (gorge) before bedtime.

Growing up in the Catholic Church presented many penitential days of fasting and/or abstinence (no meat). Today, Friday remains a day of abstinence. The bishops said Catholics could perform an act of sacrifice instead (like volunteering at a hospital, etc.) I know most do not.

Fasting for Muslims is a lot like their quickie marriages to prostitutes--another work around invented by the perfect man.