Watch for the cries of "Islamophobia," without anyone in the mainstream media offering the shadow of a hint that the behavior of Muslims might have something to do with this, and that Muslims have the power to reverse it also, by stopping violence committed in the name of Islam.
From The Associated Press (thanks to all who sent this in):
DENVER (AP) — Negative opinions about Islam are on the rise, Mormons are viewed as Christian but different and Pope Benedict XVI trails his predecessor in popularity, a poll of Americans released Tuesday said.The survey of 3,000 adults from Aug. 1-18 was conducted for the Pew Research Center and the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.
The number of Americans who say Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has spiked to 70 percent in the past two years from 59 percent, the poll found.
Another significant shift has taken place: In 2005, 36 percent of the public said Islam is more likely than other faiths to encourage violence among its believers. That number has risen to 45 percent.
Being a part of the unholy alliance, if Pew lists these figures, 10 to 1 the "70%-not in common" & the "45%-likely/violence" is a lot higher...otherwise they wouldn't have taken this long to make it public.
Seeing as 25% of "U.S. Americans" probably couldn't locate our country on a map (sad, but true: see Miss Junior South Carolina), I'd say we're batting closer to 60% of actual thinking people. Not bad. Getting better. The ass-hats in Congress will be the last to get it.
Things are looking up.
When 99% of the terrorists in the World are Muslims or Arabs, everybody with a functioning brain would think less of Islam. These people act worse than animals . Bombing cafes, bombing buses, targeting police ( as in Iraq ) ,spewing hatred and preaching murder in their so-called churches. What a religion !
Yes! Great numbers! Continue on with your enlightenment, Americans! Bravo/a. Best news I've heard all day!
"The number of Americans who say Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has spiked to 70 percent in the past two years from 59 percent, the poll found."
Chalk one up for education. Sites like JW and dedicated people like Robert and Hugh are getting the word out.
Actions speak louder than words and the Muslims, by their actions, are speaking even louder. With every video and every bombing and every speech at the UN, they show us just how little our many and varied religions have in common with Islam.
This paragraph has nothing in it that is negative about Islam, it is just true:
The number of Americans who say Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has spiked to 70 percent in the past two years from 59 percent, the poll found.
This paragraph is also just true from the evidence of who is committing violence in the world today:
Another significant shift has taken place: In 2005, 36 percent of the public said Islam is more likely than other faiths to encourage violence among its believers. That number has risen to 45 percent.
Since when are true opinions negative?
Off topic - Diana West's "The Death of the Grownup" is a fine book and well worth reading.
Ethelred
"Americans More Negative on Islam"
I sure hope that is true, Robert. Because Ahmadinejad just pretty much declared war.
What on Earth? Are people getting more educated, despite the best efforts of the media and academia to keep them ignorant?
A former collegiate colleague of mine wrote a column in the campus staff newspaper assuring us that there is no clash of civilizations taking place. That will be a relief to the families of all of the millions of Baha'i, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Sikh and Zoroastrian people murdered by jihadists in the last few decades.
Still far from what it should be, but the Church of Everyone Is Exactly the Same and All Religions Are the Same and Everything Is the Same still has a number of adherents. After all, it takes time, it takes attention, to find out what Islamic texts contain, what Islam inculcates based on those texts, and how Muslims accept (or reject) what the Total Belief-System teaches. It takes time, but the behavior of Muslims around the world, and their behavior, including those incessant demands, those transparent (or nearly so) displays of Taqiyya-and-Tu-Quoque, those constant assaults on local non-Muslims of every kind, reported from Indonesia to Thailand to Bangladesh to Iraq to Nigeria to the countries of Western Europe, are having their effect. It is Muslims themselves, behaving as Islam teaches them, and exhibiting the attitudes that Islam instills in them, who are damaging the "image" of Islam. And once damaged, once people see things as they are, it will be very difficult to cause them to un-see what they have seen.
This is good news. And it cannot be stopped, unless Muslims themselves stop, all over the world, the acts, the words and deeds, that come naturally to them, but for which nothing has in the past prepared them -- for now they are being observed, and on the basis of those observations certain conclusions are being reached, not at a time when the situation is hopeless and beyond repair for Infidels, but when they are still overwhelmingly more powerful, and still, if they summon the will, can handle the menace within their own countries of a growing Muslim threat by a series of acts that can easily be justified, and that are the most minimal steps that people in the past would have immediately taken, once they grasped the matter, to save their own legal and political institutions, their free inquiry, their artistic expression, their social arrangements and understandings -- all of which are flatly contradicted by the texts and tenets of Islam.
Kinda like the mOslem munchkins spew today...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297935,00.html
...and his veiled "submit or die!" ultimatum.
(PLEASE POST THIS ANNOUNCEMENT AT OTHER WEBSITES)
The Jihad Awareness Project (to wake up the U.S. Senate) currently has 92 volunteers in 42 states.
WE ARE STILL SEEKING ADDITIONAL CITIZEN VOLUNTEERS FROM ALL 50 STATES, ESPECIALLY THE FOLLOWING 9:
Connecticut
Delaware
Mississippi
Montana
North Dakota
Oklahoma
South Dakota
Vermont
West Virginia
THE PROJECT: We're looking for people in every state of the Union who would be willing to purchase, from Amazon or any other source, a copy of Robert Spencer's new book Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is And Islam Isn't and mail it, on an agreed upon date, to one of the senators in your state. We want to get the book simultaneously to all 100 senators, in order to send a strong message. If we get more than two people per state, books can also be sent to the U.S. House of Representatives.
If you'd like to participate (or you just have questions), please write to me at traehnam@yahoo.com under the subject heading "Senate," and tell me the state your senator represents, and a nickname. No need for your real name. And I will never share your email address with anyone, not even with other volunteers for this project.
And visit jihadawareness.blogspot.com to get more info on this project and to leave comments other volunteers can read. You can also see there the growing list of participants in this project, and the states their senators represent. I've also designed a graphic that might amuse. Scroll down when you get to the site.
Once we have at least two people from every state, we can agree on a mailing date and then each of us can mail a copy of the book on that date.
Right before each of us mails the book, we’ll issue a press release to media outlets in as many states as possible, and in that way announce and explain the mailing. And perhaps we can come up with some other ways of maximizing the effectiveness of this project and gaining as much positive attention as possible.
One of the project's volunteers suggested contacting Rep. Sue Myrick, who started the Anti-Jihad Caucus in Congress. When we reach the goal of having all 100 senators covered, I'll call Rep. Myrick's office and see if she can help. I've called several congressional offices to get advice on how best to proceed.
"The number of Americans who say Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has spiked to 70 percent ... "
I would say that the number is going to asymptotically approach 100% over the next couple of years. Nice work, CAIR.
For the 30% who think Islam might have something in common with their own religion, (aside from the 2% Muslims,) which religion might that be?
This is great news.
Now if we can get our politicians, George W., and the State Department to understand that the people that they represent view islam with caution and grief.
Given that the MSM, Hollywood, Democrats, Spin-doctors, colleges, and magazines push for islam. I find it surprising that these numbers could increase since the majority of America hears only the good about islam.
To the 55 percent who, according to the survey, either don't know or who do not think Islam is "more likely than other faiths to encourage violence," see this (apologies to JWs who have seen it already):
The foregoing passage can be found here."The number of Americans who say Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has spiked to 70 percent in the past two years from 59 percent, the poll found."
This is the thing that infuriates Muslims more than anything else, that Christians and Jews won't buy Mohammad as a Prophet of God.
It only aggrivates their already colosal doubts and inferiority complexes. Much of their hatred and violence towards Christians and Jews is an attempt to force Christians and Jews to acknowledge Islam as a devinely revealed faith revealed to Mohammad by the same God that spoke to their Prophets.
It says much about the confidence of Christians and Jews in their faiths that they don't feel it necessary to kill and terrorize others in order to gain their approval of what the believe.
It also says much about the lack of confidence Muslims have in their faith that they must have the assurance of Christians and Jews that they are legitimate heirs of their two faiths.
Those 70% are absolutely correct. Muslims have nothing in common with Christians and Jews.
That number has risen to 45 percent.
Posted by Robert
That's a good start but not nearly enough. We need at least 60% if we are to make a difference at the polls. It's a race against time.
The more islamos move here they will team up with the leftists like they do in Europe and vote Hitlery or Obama.
To the 55 percent who, according to the survey, either don't know or who do not think Islam is "more likely than other faiths to encourage violence," see this (apologies to JWs who have seen it already): ...
Posted by: traeh
traeh, well posted. The trend is moving in our direction. Still, this result is so appalling you have to wonder if the poll questioning is somehow skewed:
Another significant shift has taken place: In 2005, 36 percent of the public said Islam is more likely than other faiths to encourage violence among its believers. That number has risen to 45 percent
Is there ANY mainstream faith on earth which can even remotely compete with Islam for ecouraging violence among its believers? Wouldn't you love to query one of these 55 percenters on just which religion out violenced Islam to their way of thinking? There cannot be that many stupid people. I am betting there is something biased in the favor of Islam to the way these questions are being posed.
This is the most encouraging thing that I've heard in a while. And as long as Muslims keep reacting to things like cartoons whith things like burning and killing, these numbers will only continue to get better. There is no one (ever Robert) doing a better job of exposing Islam for what it really is than Muslims themselves. So thank you "Rage Boy", Cair, and all the rest of you who are doing such a wonderful job of sharing with the west the true nature of Islam. Seriously.
Rick
Negative on Islam???
We should be Freakin ALARMED!!!
Any other religion ( or sect ) that did what this religion of peace promotes would have been banned and all their leaders Jailed.
This insiduos religion will be the catalyst for the next world war.....and we will only have ourselves to blame...and the Dick Heads on the Left.
i can see "anti religious hatred" laws similar to europe coming into play once the democrats get into power.
the natives are getting restless, better put them back in their place, create more laws to stop us dictating our own futures.
not me sir.
or should that be "religious hatred"?
anti? my brains all punch drunk.
A growing number of Americans are also tired of being called "Islamophobes" because of what they have learned about Islam by reading Islamic scriptures.
rational said: "Muslims have nothing in common with Christians and Jews."
Oh, I would so like to agree with that. But Islam would not be so tempting to alienated Westerners if it had nothing at all in common with Western religions. How many people would seriously consider a religion requiring you to pray daily to a scoop of ice cream - and then to eat your ice cream god? (On second thought...)
On the contrary, Islam is so accessible because of its familiarity. It is a monotheistic, Semitic religion, speaking of the same cast of characters known to Western religions, with some practices that I can recognize as a Jew - and with a troubling message whose origin hasn't been sufficiently acknowledged by Christians. The message is that the only way to salvation is through Islam. Six centuries earlier, some people began teaching that the only way to salvation is through Christianity, a claim repeated from time to time by commenters at JW/DW. So you (the generic you) don't repudiate Islam because of its exclusivity; rather you repudiate Islam because your exclusivity is the correct one.
As I said on another thread, I just want to live the way I choose. And I'm also informed enough to understand that I have a heckuva better chance doing that in the Christian United States than in secular Europe or in the dar al-Islam. I want to stop the global jihad, and eradicate shari'a (or at least limit it to consenting adults). That doesn't mean that I can't engage in civilizational introspection and recognize a perverted version of my own beliefs in my enemy. And THAT doesn't mean I'm unwilling to defeat my enemy, whatever the cost.
I disagree that Islam has little or nothing to do with Judaism. Mohammed was strongly influenced by Judaism as well as Christianity, two religions around him at the time, and that is why Islam has many similarities to both faiths.
If you read Robert Spencer's "The Truth About Mohammed", it's possible to follow the progression that Mohammed made from preacher to warlord.
One thing that stands out from the story, is the frustration that Mohammed experienced in being taken seriously, and how his ambitions blossomed into violent opposition to those who challenged him. Eventually, what started as a theological mission, evolved into a sort of pirate fiefdom. Left behind were the ethical standards that had been so carefully thought out and developed through many centuries of Jewish and Christian thinking.
The Quran says;
Say: ‘GOD is One, the Eternal God.
He begot none, nor was He begotten. None is equal to Him.’
—Qur’an 112:1-4
The Bible says;
1John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
One just needs to open the books and see Islam has nothing in common with their own religion.
Great news of rampant "Islamophobia" in the US. Such is the case in the UK as well.
Now the hard part - how to get Muslims to leave the West "voluntarily".
No disagreement here, really: some of us are speaking in shorthand, and others are speaking in detail.
Hugh posted: but when they are still overwhelmingly more powerful, and still, if they summon the will, can handle the menace within their own countries of a growing Muslim threat by a series of acts that can easily be justified, and that are the most minimal steps that people in the past would have immediately taken, once they grasped the matter, to save their own legal and political institutions, their free inquiry, their artistic expression, their social arrangements and understandings -- all of which are flatly contradicted by the texts and tenets of Islam.
In short, stop Muslim immigration, and then reverse it over a period of time.
Even if most of the population are convinced Islam is a threat then watch out for the loonies who will go around and convince everyone that islam is only reacting to western aggression etc etc.
No,,I'm not excited yet. Islam has the full support of saudi and other oil money and and they are paying for everything including favorable opinions.
Hugh, you wrote:
"Still far from what it should be, but the Church of Everyone Is Exactly the Same and All religions Are the Same and Everything Is the Same still has a number of adherents."
Even Noam Chomsky realizes that the Post-Modern, nothing means anything and there are no objective truths, gobble-dee-gook line of "thinking" that has spawned this multiculturalism as a academic "religious" movement is terribly dangerous to its adherents. But then, as anyone familiar with the scientific method knows, the synonym for "Post-Modern" is "Primitive". My ex-brother-in-law said something many years ago that I thought captured the situation: "You buy'em books and buy'em books, and all they do is eat the covers."
Maybe OT a bit--
I was auditing a large middle school in the heartland yesterday and while waiting for the principal, I listened to him addressing the students in the "commons" at the beginning of the day.
After the pledge of allegiance (I noticed several students, including 2 muslims, sit through it), the principal instructed the kids to have a good day. Two boys stood up and said, "We can't have a good day. A terrorist is coming to Ground Zero!" This was a reference to Achmadinejad, and the principal agreed--"He shouldn't be in our country."
I was uplifted a bit by this--the school is very diverse-asians, blacks, hispanics, and yes--islamic students here, too. But these two boys, and their principal, made my day.
We still have a ways to go. Another part of the poll shows that people are more favorable of muslims than they are of atheist - 43% to 35%. I may not agree with atheists, but last I checked they weren't the ones strapping on bombs...
It looks like we still have a ways to go. Another result of the poll was that more of the subjects favored muslims over atheist - 43% to 35%. I may not agree with atheists, but last I checked they weren't the ones strapping on bombs...
Noam Chomsky was on Bin Laden's suggested reading list. He must be proud.
OT
Taxi drivers linked to gangs.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1998607.ece
Taxi drivers linked to gangs
A large number of Oslo taxi drivers already have been charged with tax evasion and welfare fraud. Now Oslo police suspect around 40 drivers and even more taxi owners of having close contact with Pakistani gangs, and operating as couriers of arms and drugs.
Hundreds of Oslo taxi drivers are believed to operate in a shadowy world that's hurting the reputation of the entire industry.
PHOTO: ANNE STINE JOHNSBRÅTEN
Newspaper Aftenposten reported on Monday that in some cases, the taxis are used as getaway cars after gang offensives in Oslo and the surrounding area.
Aftenposten followed up over the weekend on earlier reports of what's known locally as taxijuks, that is, widespread fraud that's enriched Pakistani-Norwegian taxi drivers and owners, who in turn send much of their ill-gotten gains back to Pakistan in an effort to hide assets from Norwegian tax authorities.
Local tax officials claim 337 taxi owners have failed to report an estimated NOK 406 million in income, while 589 drivers have driven black-market taxi operations to the tune of NOK 116 million. Around 20 owners have been reported to the police, and prosecutors have brought formal charges against five of them.
Nearly 900 taxi owners and drivers have received more than NOK 100 million in state welfare payments, at the same time they're believed to have driven black-market operations. More than 100 of them have been reported to police, and 20 have been convicted of welfare fraud. Another 350 have been warned that they face welfare reimbursement demands totalling NOK 57 million.
Aftenposten reported on Sunday that a 39-year-old taxi owner sold his house just before he was forced into bankruptcy for failure to pay millions in taxes and fees owed to the state. It's unclear what became of the proceeds of the sale, however, and the 39-year-old now lives on Norwegian welfare, even though he's linked to successful businesses in Pakistan including a bus company, a gas station and several retail stores.
Other taxi owners and drivers charged with tax evasion in Norway are known to have large, expensive homes in Pakistan, where their families live affluent lives.
Gang ties
Oslo police, meanwhile, have also uncovered ties between criminal Pakistani gangs in Oslo and more than 40 taxi drivers. The drivers are suspected of carrying gang members and their weapons, as well as drugs.
Undercover police have, for years, observed a "striking" number of taxis with their lights turned off in the vicinity of gang operations, noted Tom Østreng of the Oslo Police Districe. Use of taxis, it's believed, is less risky than use of private cars that can pbe traced to their owners.
Many honest taxi drivers in Oslo and elsewhere in Norway now fear for the reputation of the entire industry. "There are many drivers who follow the rules and don't do anything wrong," driver Andivad Amin told Aftenposten. "This hurts everyone."
Aftenposten's reporters
Einar Haakaas
Arild Jonassen
Kjetil Sæter
Peace be to you from God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
"the Church of Everyone Is Exactly the Same and All Religions Are the Same and Everything Is the Same"
I love that, thanks, Hugh.
From Joe Schmoe USA: "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."
From Numbers 23:19: "God is not man..."
It does not make me a liar, but rather a truthteller, to believe in the one, unique Lord God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Folks, I admire those of you whose Christianity has made you better people. However, the verses cited above appear to me to be the precursor of the jihad mentality. As I said before, you reject Islam's claim of religious supremacy not because you are opposed to religious supremacy in principle, but because you want your religion to be supreme.
Someday, someone is going to write a book identifying the source of Muhamad's belief that he had to conquer the world ("He who does not believe shall be condemned!").
One of the few funny passages in Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography Infidel is her childhood argument with a Christian acquaintance, which went like this:
"You're going to hell!"
"No, you're going to hell!"
"No, you're going to hell!"
"No, you're going to hell!",
etc., ad infintum.
How many Jews were slaughtered in the lands of the Eastern religions - India, China, etc.? Very few. How many millions were murdered within living memory in Christian lands?
Enough of your triumphalism! I worship God, and I'm not apologizing for that to anyone, schmoe or otherwise. You worship as you please, as our prophet says: "Each man shall walk in the name of his god, and I shall walk in the name of the Lord."
Good!
(1) Have truth on your side
(2) When the people
(3) Then win the vote
Greetings and peace be unto you in the name of the Father and of His Son, Jesus Christ.
One difference between a follower of Christ and a Jihadist is that I only share my own experiences. Once I was blind, but now I see. I leave the changing of hearts (and thus the battle for the mind of other men) to God. My God is powerful enough to do His work Himself. And He is the final judge.
Jihadists seem to think their duty is to be allah's enforcers, kind of like a hit squad for the Mafia.
Surak
There is a problem with your logic.
Everyone is not in the possession of truth. Truth is not whatever one chooses to believe, either. Someone has to be right; all religions or belief systems cannot claim to simultaneously own the truth.
Of course Jesus the Christ was not purely mortal, but Immanuel, 'God with us.' How much longer are you going to wait for the Messiah, the fulfillment of all prophecies? Are Jews still waiting for the Messiah? The ones in my neighborhood mow their lawns on the Sabbath and eat pepperoni pizza. When did God change his covenant with you?
Before you condemn 'Christian' nations like that of Hitler for killing Jews, look at all the Christians who they killed also. The world's greatest mass murderer, Josef Stalin, killed Christians, over 20 million. He had been baptized, but he hated Christianity.
In the present time, the biggest Zionists are Christians, me included.
The number of Americans who say Islam has little or nothing in common with their own religion has spiked to 70 percent
– 58% say they know little or nothing about Islam's practices
Is this possible? Only if some people were talking out of their asses. People were making decisions without having the knowledge to draw upon. This 58% is the number that most needs to be increased.
I sometimes wonder that we get useful information out of polls at all, given the poor tactics that go into forming questions. This poll is indeed informative, particularly in its indication of the direction of public opinion. But I, for one, care less about public opinion than about whether that opinion can be substantiated either by solid fact or by significant sociological data to demonstrate the stability of that opinion, its basis, or in what sense readers have interpreted the questions, or whether or not they have any knowledge of what they speak. Who is to say that a well-thought-out CAIR publicity campaign wouldn't turn these numbers around (...fat chance, but they can dream...and I have learned to have faith in the fickleness of public opinion).
With that in mind, how about next time this poll is done, they superpose the questions with others that will make useful and meaningful analysis about the value of those opinions.
First and foremost in my mind is the question of the degree of understanding that goes into forming these opinions.
For example, first ask the polee to identify their religious faith, and their own evaluation of thier own degree of "faithfulness" to their professed creed -- in some coarse grouping so that we can read off the responses of muslims, non-muslim religious people, athiests, etc.
Then ask some penetrating questions regarding their knowledge of the content of the Islamic religion: What portion of the Qur'an have you read, or how many hours have you used to inform yourself of its content in the last year? Even a short quiz on basic Islamic doctrine, etc. -- to determine (i) the person's own perception of their level of islamo-savvy; and (ii) their actual degree of islamo-savvy.
Then correlate their self-perceived, and actual, knowledge of Islam against their view as to whether Islam encourages violence. I, for one, am convinced that the correlation would be striking -- galvanizing, even, if the results became widely known. But "opinion only" polls, and wild results, are a dime a dozen!
If asking whether Islam encourages violence "more than other faiths" one has to also ascertain, in a symmetrical fashion, the degree of knowledge of the faith to which one compares.
Note, one must compare apples to oranges: Although Christians read the entire bible, it is the New Testament that delineates the prescriptive nature of the faith, and so knowledge of the New Testament (rather than, say, general understanding of the wars against Canaanites or Philistines in the Old Testament, which although interesting are not formative elements of Christian belief and practice) is the thing to compare to knowledge of the Qur'an. Rather than comparing abstractions such as "islam encourages violence" to "christianity encourages violence", how about comparing the content of the two texts -- or rather, asking for the person's assessment, of how they compare, and correlating this assessment with their perception of how informed they are, and with a concrete measure of how informed they are.
Those would be useful numbers.
I think we know the results already; JW'ers, in general, seem to be well above the national average in knowledge of Islam, and probably over half are somewhat knowledgeable about Christianity, Judaism or another faith...'nuff said.
I sometimes wonder that we get useful information out of polls at all, given the poor tactics that go into forming questions. This poll is indeed informative, particularly in its indication of the direction of public opinion. But I, for one, care less about public opinion than about whether that opinion can be substantiated either by solid fact or by significant sociological data to demonstrate the stability of that opinion, its basis, or in what sense readers have interpreted the questions, or whether or not they have any knowledge of what they speak. Who is to say that a well-thought-out CAIR publicity campaign wouldn't turn these numbers around (...fat chance, but they can dream...and I have learned to have faith in the fickleness of public opinion).
With that in mind, how about next time this poll is done, they superpose the questions with others that will make useful and meaningful analysis about the value of those opinions.
First and foremost in my mind is the question of the degree of understanding that goes into forming these opinions.
For example, first ask the polee to identify their religious faith, and their own evaluation of thier own degree of "faithfulness" to their professed creed -- in some coarse grouping so that we can read off the responses of muslims, non-muslim religious people, athiests, etc.
Then ask some penetrating questions regarding their knowledge of the content of the Islamic religion: What portion of the Qur'an have you read, or how many hours have you used to inform yourself of its content in the last year? Even a short quiz on basic Islamic doctrine, etc. -- to determine (i) the person's own perception of their level of islamo-savvy; and (ii) their actual degree of islamo-savvy.
Then correlate their self-perceived, and actual, knowledge of Islam against their view as to whether Islam encourages violence. I, for one, am convinced that the correlation would be striking -- galvanizing, even, if the results became widely known. But "opinion only" polls, and wild results, are a dime a dozen!
If asking whether Islam encourages violence "more than other faiths" one has to also ascertain, in a symmetrical fashion, the degree of knowledge of the faith to which one compares.
Note, one must compare apples to oranges: Although Christians read the entire bible, it is the New Testament that delineates the prescriptive nature of the faith, and so knowledge of the New Testament (rather than, say, general understanding of the wars against Canaanites or Philistines in the Old Testament, which although interesting are not formative elements of Christian belief and practice) is the thing to compare to knowledge of the Qur'an. Rather than comparing abstractions such as "islam encourages violence" to "christianity encourages violence", how about comparing the content of the two texts -- or rather, asking for the person's assessment, of how they compare, and correlating this assessment with their perception of how informed they are, and with a concrete measure of how informed they are.
Those would be useful numbers.
I think we know the results already; JW'ers, in general, seem to be well above the national average in knowledge of Islam, and probably over half are somewhat knowledgeable about Christianity, Judaism or another faith...'nuff said.
"The message is that the only way to salvation is through Islam. Six centuries earlier, some people began teaching that the only way to salvation is through Christianity, a claim repeated from time to time by commenters at JW/DW. So you (the generic you) don't repudiate Islam because of its exclusivity; rather you repudiate Islam because your exclusivity is the correct one."
Surak,
Good post, but I've never accepting any criticism of Islam because of its exclusivity. You're correct, most Christians believe, as I do, that Jesus is the savior, and salvation is through him, and only him. So how can I critize Muslims for their exclusivity.
It is a all a matter of faith, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest that Muslims believe differently than me. I respect their right to be exclusive, just as I expect them to respect my right to be exclusive.
I say that Muslims have nothing to do with either Judaism or Christianity because I've read both the old and new testaments, and accept both of them as the inspired word of God. To deliberately alter the Torah to support the claims of Christians about Jesus, would be considered blasphame by Christians, and Christian theologians have always taken pains to insure a correct translation of Jewish scriptures, even to the point of consulting Jewish scholars when translating the Torah. That doesn't mean that they necessarily agreed on the interpretation of the scriptures. Obviously they did not. But it was important to Christians that they get it right, since the Torah is the word of God as given to the Jewish Prophets. In no way have Christians ever felt threatened by a correct translation of the Torah.
In Islam, there is no such care in interpreting the Torah or new testament. They are totally distorted. Mohammad had absolutely no qualms about altering the stories of the old and new testaments to point to himself as a Prophet. On the Christian side of things, he completely gutted the most basic and fundamental scriptures of the new testament, and did pretty much the same with the Torah.
Finally, the voice of God in the Torah and new testament is unrecognizable as the voice of Mohammad's Allah. If the God of the old and new testament is the God of Islam, than either God has a split personality or there are two Gods. And I don't believe in two Gods.
For these reasons, I believe that Islam has absolutely nothing to do with Christians and Jews. Exclusivity has assolutely nothing to do with my objections to Islam. If it did, I'd have the same attutude towards Judaism, and I don't.
Next poll:
"Americans More Negative on Drinking Antifreeze"
Found this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWydZ9YhwUc&NR=1
Muhammad borrowed his beliefs from Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, and Allah is still an Arab moon deity.
Re: Poll: Americans More Negative on Islam
Things will get a lot colder for Muslims as people realize that this "religion" permits deception of unbelievers. Other major religions follow "the Golden Rule" but Islam follows "the Golden Fool". Everything (including the propaganda word "islamophobia") is flying imam style deception with Muslim culture.
A very encouraging poll.
Good, Yanks are starting to understand that when the prophet of allah got his koran to serve man, allah gave moslems a cook book! The koran is a cook book of how to serve man!
Well as I have said since 9/11, Islam is the root, terrorism is the fruits.
Got to remember that Muhammed is a false prophet and Allah is really a moon-rock god.
Now if we can get our politicians, George W., and the State Department to understand that the people that they represent view islam with caution and grief.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at September 25, 2007 6:41 PM
Bush was in wahhabbi pockets even before he was "elected" in his brother's state. His record speaks for his wahhabbi-ass-kissing self. As for Condi, the ignorant fool does not even know that she is an Abidi.
Who would actually think that the results of this survey are encouraging? The truth is it doesn't matter. This is just more Muslim bashing and Islam bashing. Onward Christian soldiers!
Once more people read at least a one page gloss of the violent calls to terror a murder in the Koran (Suras 9:5 and 9:29-30, et al) , the ignorant 55% will remain an obstacle to a realistic policy toward Islamic imperialism.
Ignorance is bliss... until the knife reaches the throat.
What incredible news!! At least Americans aren't buying into the RoP b.s. Perhaps as that percentage hardens, we can begin to take control over our lives and safeguard our country for the future.
"Next poll: 'Americans More Negative on Drinking Antifreeze'" Posted by: Bingo
About 10-14 years ago I read about a study that proved childbirth is painful. I could've told them that and saved them a lot of money.
At any rate, I'm glad Americans are wising up and I hope my fellow Canadians are, too.
Islamophobia is a very healthy, perhaps life saving, illness for non Muslims to catch and not attempt to cure.
M.O.T.
CapitalistGig, I'm sorry, it's your logic that is faulty. It is not logically necessary that there be anyone who has the whole truth. It's logically possible that each of us has a piece of it. I think that is in fact the case, which is why I read with appreciation the scriptures of all of the major religions. Of course, in the case of one religion which bases its entire vocabulary and prophecy on that of another religion, consistency demands that assertions in the new religion not contradict assertions of the original religion. It goes without saying that I do not perceive such consistency in this particular case.
"How much longer are you going to wait for the Messiah, the fulfillment of all prophecies? Are Jews still waiting for the Messiah?"
Ha, ha, ha! A knee-slapper! I love having people who can't read a letter of Hebrew lecture me about the MESSIAH! We've had plenty of messiahs - every high priest starting with Aaron, and every king starting with Saul. What did they do to those kings and high priests back in the day? Pour a little oil on their heads. As you can read in the Hebrew Bible, those folks were all anointed - mashiach - messiah. Pour a little oil on your head, and you are mashiach too. So what? One day, it may be that Israel will merit to have a return of some sort, not just physical but spiritual. A prophet may arise - one who does NOT teach people to abandon the Law (which Jesus correctly warned would make that man the least in the kingdom of heaven), who will identify a high priest and a king. The latter will gather in the exiles and rebuild the Temple. Has the dispersion ended? No! Has the Temple been rebuilt? No! Is there peace on earth? No! How long will we wait? "As for me, I trust in the Lord." Then that anointed person will die, and the next person will take his place.
"The ones [Jews] in my neighborhood mow their lawns on the Sabbath and eat pepperoni pizza. When did God change his covenant with you?"
Oooh! You can see the mote in your neighbor's eye, but you can't see the beam in your own eye! As it says in one of those memorable parables from the Talmud - one of many instructive humane teachings (like saving a life overriding the Sabbath, praying to our Father in heaven, etc.) from the Hebrew Bible, prayerbook and Oral Law which were part of the stock-in-trade of the popular teachers of the first century CE, namely the Pharisees, including that famous rabbi from Nazareth... If you want to meet a perfect Jew, find me a perfect Christian and we'll set up a meeting, OK?
On one point we agree - God did not change His covenant, as God pointed out already in Deuteronomy (not to believe a prophet, even one performing miracles, who tells us that the Law is abrogated).
I'm happy to disappoint you - I'm sticking with the eternal covenant my ancestors entered into at Mount Sinai.
How much longer are you going to wait for the Messiah, the fulfillment of all prophecies?
--posted by Capitalist Gig
I'm a born-again Christian and I'm waiting for the Messiah to return to fulfill all prophecies.
How much longer should I wait?
Relevant anecdote:
I was at a Crafts Fair in a small American town and was talking to a lady who is a self described "aging, leftist hippie", which could be construed as pro abortion, anti-Bush, pro marijuana legalization, etc...
Our talk took a political turn when I mentioned something about Muslims and immediately she stiffened and said "I don't like Arabs!", which surprised me.
I wasn't surprised by her associating all Arabs with Islam; many Americans mistakenly assume the same. But what interested me was that she explained that she disliked "Arabs" not just because of 9/11, but because they "like to cheat and rob". Apparently she had some sour business dealings with "Arabs" in her little cottage industry.
I wonder how many other Americans have this perception of the "wily Arab trader", which could account for some of the negative attitudes. To be honest, I grew up with the same perception before 9/11.
Not that it bothers me. :)
"How much longer are you going to wait for the Messiah, the fulfillment of all prophecies? Are Jews still waiting for the Messiah? The ones in my neighborhood mow their lawns on the Sabbath and eat pepperoni pizza. When did God change his covenant with you?" Posted by: CapitalistGig
I'm not comfortable with this statement at all.
This is getting too personal.
It's one thing to briefly point out differences in theology; for example, one person says, these two religions are the same because of Fact A and another person says, actually, they're not because of Fact B and then they agree to disagree and we get back on topic.
I disagree with saying such disrespectful things to anyone but *especially* to someone Jewish. (I'm biased, LOL.)
Obviously, I'm saying this as a guest; I am not a moderator here.
Josephine,
Sorry that your comfort level was exceeded. You said you were biased to the Jewish persuasion, and I'll remember that.
Surak,
I apologize. I didn't know that you are orthodox and still beholden to the original covenant. I logged on to your diatribe with Joe Schmoe and was offended by you comments. ("You're going to hell!, No, you're going to hell")As for Christianity basing its entirety on Judaism, the rabbi from Nazareth came to fulfill (not abolish) the old law. Maybe sometime off line you can explain Reform Judaism to me.
I know it probably irks you when people log on with greetings in Jesus' name, but the majority of the true Zioninsts I know are Christians. We are praying for the safety of Israel from jihadists every day, and 5 times a day during Ramadan. Please don't take it personally.
Keep talking to people. Keep sending emails. It all adds up. Never give up.
An understanding is growing among the people every day. It gets stronger and deeper every day. I can see it in the reactions of people I talk to and hear it in their voices and words. It's working.
Thanks for your words, everyone.
Please let me be crystal clear that not only am I not anti-Christian, but that in fact I feel terrified about what will happen to America if it should follow in Europe's footsteps and become less Christian. I used to roll my eyes when I heard people speak about a cultural war against Christianity. Now, I am sorry to say that I am beginning to understand what they are talking about. I don't want that war to be successful. I get the impression that most people in the country are quietly faithful, and that the agitation takes place at the level of the "cognitive elite", i.e., the media and academia. The latter institutions are too influential for my taste.
I'm not quite Orthodox, but what we call Traditional (or Conservadox). I keep kosher and I keep Sabbath. I pray daily in Hebrew - actually, multiple times per day. Some verses from our Aramaic Sanctification found their way into the Lord's Prayer.
As to the question of origins of streams of religious thought - this is really amazing stuff. I would guess that very few Jews other than me have read the gospels. I would guess that very few Christians have studied the Talmud. When you read them both - wow! But wait - that's not all. Factor in the Greek philosophy circulating at the time (2000 years ago). Even more, factor in the Buddhist missionaries whose religion grew out of Hinduism, and which influenced the mother religion in turn, which carried a monastic, pacifist, universalist message to the Middle East - intellectual explosion! And then throw in all of the movements circulating within Judaism - the literalist Temple-centered Sadduccees (not one letter of the Law shall be changed), the ascetic Essenes (do not worry about your food or clothing), the nationalist Zealots (I come bringing a sword), the humane, popular teachers the Pharisees (the golden rule; love your neighbor; the Sabbath is made for man) - at some point you finally get the idea that it's not all about just the Jewish scriptures, or the Jewish scriptures plus the Christian scriptures - this is a big, big discussion.
Yes, I am an observant Jew. Yet I count among my teachers Moses, Confucius, Lao Tze, Buddha, the Hindu sages, Jesus, and many others. Ultimate truth I leave in God's hands - but I hope to learn from everyone.
Wow, Surak,
You & I could yack for hours on that subject!
Too bad work schedule would get in the way.
lol
To Plague On Both Houses - yes. I think the 'tipping point' may be approaching.
I am not alone in seeing that change in opinion (59 to 70 on 'Islam has nothing in common with my own religion' and 39 to 45 on 'Islam more likely to encourage violence') as a good thing, since the positions being adopted, happen to be demonstrably true.
The shift is not just happening in America. I have been reading at the Jerusalem Post online for over a year now - since before the Hezbollah-Israel war in July 06. I have always read the talkbacks for major articles, and I think there's been a perceptible change.
A year ago, I don't think there were very many talkbackers who would refer specifically to the Quran and/or Muslim history to explain 'Palestinian' attitudes and conduct vis a vis Israel, or those of the wider Arabised/Islamised world vis a vis the non-Muslim world. Now there are. I've been doing my small bit - at different times I've pointed people to Qur'an surahs, referenced Spencer and Bat Yeor, referred to Muslim history, jihad, the hudna, dhimmitude - but I'm by no means the only one. Sometimes I've read someone's talkback and thought - that person sounds like they've been visiting jihadwatch.
The Muslim world had better watch out, if 70% + of the American electorate together with a similar proportion of the Israeli electorate, truly wakes up to the following: 1. Islam, the belief system, is totally alien 2. Islam is hostile and aggressive in various distinctive and dangerous ways 3. the 'Arab' war against Israel is a Muslim war, a subset of the Jihad 4. Muslims would be making war on America even if Israel didn't exist and even if America had never come anywhere NEAR any Muslim country.
Actually out here even in CA, it's been running a consistent 70% (save that of the durkalairs of san fransicko & lalaland where they dwell safely amongst their domestic collaborators).
To Abad (supra.) - Allah is an Arab Moon deity? I thought Allah was a little black rock that they kept in that ugly block building in Mecca... Boy, learn something new everyday. I'm kinda into "Moon deities". Worshiping rocks didn't seem like such a cool deal. I do like the part tho' where they throw other, little rocks at another rock which is the Devil. That looked like fun. Well, up to the part where they then trample each other to death. Maybe Allah is a Moon rock? Just askin'.
Yeah, I guess Islam doesn't have all that much in common with my religion. Someone call Pew and tell 'em to update those numbers. 'Nuther unconvert, comin' through.
BTW, just a thought (not to go all "Columbo" on y'all), but do you think this increasingly negative view of Islam might have anything to do with killing film makers, murdering nuns and rioting over some cartoons, and the lack of any meaningful response from so-called "Moderate Muslims" eschewing jihad? Nah, can't be. That would put the blame where it belongs...
hi surak - I 'm mainly writing to say that I liked your post above, enough that I saved it and tucked it away. Perhaps you should post it again, in the 'thread' on dhimmiwatch where we are all discussing Part Two of Fjordman's essay on why science died under Islam and flourished in the West.
I say that because of your point about the different intellectual streams coming together in and around first-century Judea and Galilee.
The Holy One clearly had his reasons when he put Israel and Jerusalem in the place Between, on the crossroads of Africa, Asia and Europe. Not a safe place, or an easy place in which to live. A truck stop. Or a lamp on a lampstand.
It's interesting to hear that you have read the gospels. I liked the way you put it: "I would guess that very few Jews other than me have read the gospels. I would guess that very few Christians have studied the Talmud. When you read them both - wow!" Certainly that gives me, a Christian, an incentive to tackle the Talmud sometime.
I wonder what would happen if all who aspired to the Christian ministry were required to emulate James Parkes and enrol in yeshiva for a decent period of time, first? It might get rid of a lot of accidental misunderstanding of TaNaKh texts.
Yes: those of us who are sincere believers - the professing Christian, the observant Jew - need to find the courage to explore each other's books. Would you be surprised to learn that at university I once hunted through the library for an English translation of the Jewish prayer book, the Siddur, because I had heard mention of the Kaddish and wondered what it said, exactly? When I read it 9the book), everything in it felt...familiar. I think I could have joined in most of the prayers without a moment's hesitation. My favourite part of the Jerusalem Post is the columns by rabbis expounding the Torah portion!
Some time ago, I heard a sermon I have never forgotten; the preacher described how, while rereading the Gospels, he found himself saying aloud "G-d how I love this man!' Well: the more I have come to understand what Thomas Cahill calls "The Gifts of the Jews", the more I am driven to say, not only, 'G-d how I love this man!' but 'G-d how I love these people!' Loving Israel is not about end time prophecies or anything else - it's simply being ambushed by a sort of astonished gratitude at what HaShem has done in and through you guys.
The flipside of that is that these days, with Ahmadinejad and Hamas and the rest of the Muslim world loudly threatening a second Shoah, I'm doing a lot of praying...Psalm 83. 91. 130. Thanks to Jacques Ellul I saw the tidal wave of anti-Semitism-as-anti-Zionism on the horizon, well before Phyllis Chesler wrote “The New Anti-Semitism”.
I also see what you see - the cultural war against Christianity, which is possibly worse here in Australia than in America, though not as bad as in Europe.
You pray for me. I'll pray for you. Deal? The rationalists and sceptics can laugh at us all they like...but this is a spiritual battle as much as a physical one.
And let's hope people wake up in time.