Pelosi backtracks on Armenian Genocide bill

There are two BIG problems with this ... well, actually three.

(1) Will Nancy Pelosi be allowed to set foreign policy all by herself? How many more times will we be subjected to these reckless, selfish acts of hers? Her little jaunt to Syria, as National Review points out, led to greater nuclear trading with North Korea and more Syrian support for Hezbollah. Her move there was cheered by al-Arabiya, al-Jazeera, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hizbollah. She's a disaster.

(2) She's playing with the safety of American troops on this one. She screws Turkey right now and there'll be hell to pay, but SHE won't be the one paying it. As the Dems said, basically: If anything goes right with this wrong, it goes wrong for us.

(3) This sets up the American government to have to treat other ethnic groups fairly -- or at least the same. Will the United States now be willing to brand the Belgians genocidal for the actions of the King Leopold II? In the SAME TIME PERIOD (1878-1910) the Belgians killed as many as THIRTY MILLION CONGOLESE -- 20 times the number of Armenians killed. The difference is that there is absolutely NO possibility that these people were engaged in any kind of civil war.

(4) OK, now I'm past three: The final issue is that both the USA and Russia refuse to open their sealed files about this issue. We already know from tons of Armenian archives that the US supported, according to many Armenians,the actions against the Armanians. So why doesn't Pelosi file a resolution against America on this? She could? She has the evidence. But then Bernard Lewis and contemporary accounts of the time say that the Turkish reprisals for Russian-incited Armenian attacks against the Turks were NOT crafted by the Ottoman Empire, but were spontaneous vengeance fests. But then, Morgenthau, the US ambassador to Turkey, says that the forced marches and deporations were a death sentence and everybody involved in them knew it. So ... there's a lot to sort out here, with contemporaries giving wildly different accounts of the situation. As MEF/National Review stated it, it's a job for historians with OPEN FILES, not creepoid politicians.

However that comes out, the truth about Pelosi is that she couldn't care less about a genocide. Otherwise, she'd have STARTED with the Belgian genocide of the Congolese, larger than the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews by as much as 4.5 times. But she didn't. She started with the Armenian genocide because it's votes and because it screws a war she can't stop by the vote.

Open the files. Do the research. And let historians sort it out.

Do not do it as a governmental toy. Otherwise, you open this can of worms and you're going to find the Belgians completely offended and the Vatican, whose conquests cum conversions, will land it on the floor at a time when we really need Catholicism to be strong.

Want to light this fire? Think about it.

Morgaan Sinclair

"Want to light this fire? Think about it."

where are the matches...they are here somewhere.

GC1577 ...

What will you say when the Congolese demand that we fry present-day Belgian for what a king of theirs did 117 years ago?

Or, if you are so eager that THIS genocide be punished, why are you not concerned AT ALL that others who have lost far more people than the Armenians and the Serbs and the Jews put together have NOBODY in Congress defending them?

It seems to me that going for blood with the Turks is religiously and ethnically based, not an overall moral problem we have with genocide.

And if it's done, it should NOT be done in a House committee wher some stupid, reckless, pool-gazer of a narcissistic can foul US foreign policy and get Americans killed and open the door for al Qaeda there worse than it is now.

Something needs to happen with the Armenian genocide, but it's not this.

And if you think it is, please, YOU go stand the line in Iraq while this crap goes down in Turkey.

WHAT ABOUT THE SOLDIERS IN IRAQ NOW???

WHY IS OK TO THREATEN THEM WITH THIS INSANITY?

Morgaan Sinclair

You see my dear you are fighting the wrong war. I view this a global war against Islamic aggression mandated by their holy books and you view it as a war of whabbie aggression. You think there is a moderate Islam and I don't.

There is no moderate Islam that can live side to side with any non-muslim on this planet in peace for an extended period of time unless the non-muslims are made into inferiors.

In the end there is nothing to argue over. You gave you view and I gave mine.

Live with it...

well, er, while I have no love for Pelosi and agree with everybody that this demarche would cost us lives, but -
Turks are not starry-eyed deniers. They'll go across the border and hit the Kurds anyway, regardless of the resolution. They have a history of stabbing us in the back - didnt they block a significant segment of US troops from going through their territory in the first place? I wont even mention a certain flick called The Valley of the Wolves and Mein Kampf's bestseller status in Istanbul. They are the kind of ally we should be rid of, sooner rather than later, along with Pakistan and Saudis. Too bad it's a morally ambiguous situation right now.

"In the SAME TIME PERIOD (1878-1910) the Belgians killed as many as THIRTY MILLION CONGOLESE..."

Posted by Morgaan Sinclair.

I'm not trying to minimize the suffering Leopold imposed upon the Congolese, but I was under the impression that the number killed was between 2 and 10 millions.

Can you provide a link to your undocumented claim of "THIRTY MILLION"?

Why don't the Democrats vote on a 'genocide' that they can actually do something about, like oh, say SUDAN.

While the U.N. has comittees that have been meeting for over three years to reach a 'definition' of genocide, before it can be labled against Sudan. (not do anything about it, just the definition).

George Clooney went there and condemned Sudan genocide, came home and then shut up when he found out that played into the hands of Republicans and against Islam.

Jimmy Carter arrives to research the 'genocide' and then states it is 'not helpful' to use such a harsh word. (he is willing to say America tortures prisoners, but Sudan genocide is 'harsh').

Everyone is buying time for the muslims to finish their genocide so that there is no evidence, witnesses, or oposition to it. Like say, waiting for 80 years to get around to voting on it.

According to Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, some 70 percent of the American military’s air cargo and a third of its fuel destined for Iraq goes through Turkey. That air cargo includes 95 percent of new vehicles with better armor to increase troop survivability. To compromise this supply line while we have forces in the field would endanger them severely – something Speaker Pelosi and her wretched party seem all too eager to do. (This is quite a switch from what the Democrats did when a similar measure came up in the House in 2000, when they were in power – President Bill Clinton persuaded Speaker Dennis Hastert to keep it off the floor.)

I hold no brief for Turkey, whose squalid past should certainly be open to censure. But what really needs to be focused on is the main driving force behind the Armenian genocide of 1915-18 (and the earlier one of 1894-96), which was not Turkish nationalism but Muslim supremacism, rooted in the scripture and traditions of Islam. As dhimmis striving to get out from under Muslim rule, the Armenian Christians committed the ultimate transgression in Muslim eyes – yet in covering this issue the media never mention Islam at all. Nor has Congress, for all of its grandstanding, done so either.

"In a reasonable world, it would not be necessary for a legislative body to pronounce on matters properly left to historians and individual conscience. "

Seems to me the thought should end there. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Congress to make pronouncements about 100-year-old predations if some number of American soldiers will be made more vulnerable by having a word ("genocide") be applied. Politics is not perfection, it's getting by, making sometimes distasteful compromises.

Aiken Bryce:

See http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm

See also: King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa
by Adam Hochschild

See also: Heart of Darkness by Joseph Conrad for background.

Apparently your (ahem) undocumented opinion (where DID you get those figures?) that it's between 2 and 10 million may need to be revised.

The only estimate as low as 3 million is one that considers only a **part** of the genocide. Though I will not dispute a figure of 30,000,000 because I cannot refute Hochschild's figures and others who've estimated it this high, I would put it at 21-23,000,000 based on rough census figures before and after. I doubt anyone can ever be sure. But what we can say is that the Belgians tried to exterminate these people and likely killed 2/3 of them and forced labor out of the rest.

Since this is obviously as big or bigger than those affecting Jews, Poles (11 million), Armenians and Serbs -- and almost likely even as large as the genocide of Russians opposed to Stalin (20 million) -- it deserves a resolution just as much. But they won't get it, will they? Nor will the Serbs. Nor will the Poles. We don't find Pelosi eager to take on the Belgians or the Germans. And nobody is going to take on the Catholic Croats over the deaths of Serbs at the hands of the Utashe.

Of course, the communists hold the record. Some 70,000,000 Christians died in 2,000 years of religious violence. 80,000,000 Muslims died in 1,400 years. In both cases, some of the killings were internecine.

But the communists killed more than all that combined, and they did it in just one century.

Look, I'm ALL for getting to the bottom of what's real -- and what's not -- involving the Armenian genocide.

But this isn't the way. And I don't want the rising pro-Armenian public opinion in Turkey squandered by this kind of BS.

GC1577 ...

We have different pictures of what "is". I have had Muslim friends for about 35 years, and have worked with Muslims from some 18 countries. So I have a very personalized picture over almost four decades now.

My theory is that about 85% of Muslims are actually practicing a spiritual (not orthopraxic) Islam that is NOT part of any of the eight formal schools of fiqh. This is rather best exemplified by the Soheib Bencheikh, the former Mufti of Marseilles. It would nice if you would sometime read up on this fellow, and there are quite a number of others as well.

They are headed as fast as they can toward the Ninth Mahdhab. And this is likely the only way that we can pull this off. Only if there is a formalized Ninth Mahdhab -- certainly a possibility since the 8th was created only in 2003 (a mystery that!).

There is the real possibility, given the creation of a mahdhab so recently, that another may be created, the joining of which, will start to draw immense amounts of energy OUT OF the radical system.

The only way to fight a bully is to get off the gameboard. That means that WE ought to be getting off oil as fast as possible, refusing admission to people from countries supporting terrorism, shutting the borders, refusing trade, etc. Especially stop training them in our universities.

Adopt Israeli rules of border crossing: You cross into Syria and you never get to come back. You go to Pakistan, you don't come home.

BUT THEN, the Ninth Mahdhad becomes the energy suck off radical Islam. Just back away.

The problem right now is that the Mufti of Marseilles, et al., have no formal mahadhab but are trying to create one.

That is something we should support.

Otherwise we're left with people like you bitching about it with no solutiosn whatsoever EXCEPT a world conflagration in which we do hand-to-hand combat with 1.6 billion angry Muslims.

But, whatever, you're going to go off anyhow in your fantasy that pontificating on a website equals action of some kind -- and keep doing this condescending "my dear" crap as if you were somebody's father or husband or something. You're offensive in that. Hopefully you are unmarried and have no daughters to insult with this sexist crap.

Morgaan Sinclair

Thanks for the link. It is appreciated.

Apparently your (ahem) undocumented opinion (where DID you get those figures?) that it's between 2 and 10 million may need to be revised.

Look. I asked the question because I'm interested in learning something. If you have something to teach, then teach.

My advice to you is to teach without your flair for arrogance.

It's a real turnoff, if I may be so bold.

Aiken Bryce ...

You could have asked for a clarification without putting "thirty million" in bold and without making the outright accusation that the figure was undocumented.

Then when I come right back at YOUR undocumented figures, you get all offended.

You see, they never were undocumented, any more than YOURS were.

And BTW, please provide documentation in your next condescending and parental post with its flare for hmtl codes

And try not to substitute parental condescending for basic curiosity when you talk to me.

Thank you so much.

It is very important to push this point of genocide. This is an opportunity to do either one of two things:

1) either force a muslim state to accept that islam has committed crimes, a heretofore, unprecedented event or,

2) diminish Turkey in the eyes of the European Union, which has foolishly contemplated allowing this muslim state to join.

They are between a rock and a hard place. Keep them there. Turkey is no ally in our fight against the islamic scourge. We need not, indeed should not, appease them for any reason.

Morgaan Sinclair -

Just went through the link you cited. Here is a short list quoted there:

British diplomat Roger Casement's famous 1904 report estimated the death toll at 3 million for just twelve of the twenty years history of Léopold's regime.

Investigative reporter and author Peter Forbath estimated at least 5 million deaths.

Adam Hochschild, estimated 10 million.

The Encyclopædia Britannica gives a total population decline of 8 million to 30 million.

By the way, I have read Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" and "King Leopold's Ghost...", but never did I come across a figure of 30 million.

Maybe you've just read The Encyclopædia Britannica's version? Or worse, the Religious Tolerance website's quote of the Britannica?

And, my figure of between 2 to 10 millions killed by Leopold fits pretty close to two of the aforementioned list that YOU provided.

Good day.

"That Turkey insists on continuing to deny the genocide is an affront to decency and the memory of the dead. How would the world react to a German government refusing the epithet "genocide" to describe the destruction of European Jewry during World War II?"

I noticed the word "decency" but I could add another “respect”. Respect for ones nation and pride in ones nation. Our founding fathers had the decency and respect for themselves to tell the British where to shove their taxes. Was it the prudent or safe thing to do? Now way but they did anyway and thank god for it because today we live in a free nation were we bow to no nobles or kings. The anti-slavery movement had decency and respect for themselves which is why they opposed slavery. They could have sat around and ignored it. Let it just pass over the falls but they did not and resisted and fought. Was it the prudent and safe thing to do? No way for it led to a civil war but thank god for it. Today no man is enslaved in this land. We can hold our head up with pride. Throughout our nations history we have had people who did the unsafe thing so today we could be free and be proud. We did not do it for the adventure but because it was the right thing to do. Now we are faced with yet another example. It is a small one. The question before us is should we recognize the sufferings of the Armenians in the genocide of 1915?

Some say it is not needed because it is for the historians to ponder. I disagree for if we had let the injustice of the past be pondered by historians of the future we would not be in America today and we would still have chattel slavery. Some say we will anger a supposed ally in the so called war on terror. I disagree for would a real ally react as Turkey has reacted to simple words. We are not threatening to wage war against Turkey yet they appear to be willing to kill Americans if we get in their way when they invade northern Iraq. Once again if they behave like this over a few words can they really be trusted for anything? Are they really an ally? Yes there will be some fallout. Perhaps it will prevent Bush’s plan to unify Iraq and bring Democracy to the Islamic world. However it is clear that was not working anyway and if you accept that Islam is a political ideology and not just a faith then the Iraqi adventure was doomed to begin with. There are also some among you that think this a ploy by certain democrats to get us out of Iraq and to make Bush look bad. You maybe are right but I don’t really care. Bush does not need the democrats to make him look stupid as has been proven beyond count. Bush does this to himself. We are in Iraq today because of Bush. This is his mess so let him figure out how to fix it. That is what you get when you put your trust in nations like Turkey, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Jordan and others and allow them to play roles in your battle plan. This is why we will continue to pay a heavy price for doing economic and military deals with these nations. This is what the price is for us buying their oil which is freedom.

We are not free. If we were free we would not be pushing for a Palestinian state. If we were free we would not be thinking about thought crimes. If we were free we would not be begging Arabians to stop their war against our people. The Arabians proved their point on 9-11. They killed thousands of Americans and what did we do about it? Nothing for we fear they might hurt our economy. That sounds like a slave to me. If you are a decent, proud and free man or women you would have no problem with this bill for it is the truth no matter how silly or irreverent it might seem. However it appears our master has screamed and some of you (along with our President and Congress) have jumped for Massa Turkey.

I am a free man so my response to Turkey is this is none of their business. This is between the United States and Armenia. We recognize their suffering in the 1915 mass murder of their people by the Ottoman Empire. End of Story…

I suspect that supporters of the bill are defecting because Turkey is threatening to intervene in Iraq. Iraq has enough problems without a nighboring country like Turkey threatening to aggravate it even further.

The historical existence of Turkish "genocide", or "massacre", against the Armenians is irrefutable. The only quibble is the term and the timing.

Those Armenian victims take no solace in the agreed upon denotation of the historical travesty.

The very threat of the "non-binding" resolution about the clarification on the matter did indeed accomplish one important goal...to reveal the tenuous and superficial reality of Turkey, with the inherent knowledge that the country is growing more Islamic by the day, as an "ally" of the US or any secular western country for that matter.

That being said, this resolution should never make the congressional floor, at least not currently, for the downside affects the current and potential future administration with regards to US troops in Iraq, which are quite numerous, to date.

Pelosi is as Pelosi does...eternally trying to undermine any success of the US in Iraq, which I personally believe is short-term at best, based on the understanding of the core "atmospherics" of the Islamic ideology which this site has ably revealed, in no small part due to the tireless, thankless work of Hugh and Robert, but Pelosi's politics must be called out for what they are.

Any perceived progress in Iraq is viewed as a defeat to the leftists, especially with the elections dawning.

I watched O'Reilly tonight and I'll be damned..he said we should have never entered Iraq and displaced Hussein, knowing what he knows now due to mountains of empirical evidence presented, historically. This epiphany is too little, too late, and is indicative of the intellectual laziness that is pandemic in the current US administration and similarly shared as a major malady of the US masses in general.

Hugh was and continues to be correct. The exit from this theatre, this fallacious attempt at democratic nation building, will only yield negative publicity, but for any infidel, why does that matter? Islam will suffer a serious "black-eye" as a result, at least in my estimation in the world of the sane.

Choose your candidates wisely in 2008.

Thanks to Greg for picking up the slack in Robert's apparent absence.

All good gamblers know that winning is in the timing. If you knew the timing of those lottery numbers, you could own most of the worlds cash.
This also applies to politics and military matters.
'Timing' is everything. How long has it been now that Armenians, and people of conscience, have been trying to get Turkey to own up to its actions?
So why at this particular time, when the US is in a war, when the US needs Turkeys cooperation, when the whole place is likely to explode at any moment, does Nancy and Comp decide to 'right' this wrong?
Do they not understand what happens when you fan a fire? Hairy Reed fanned the fires of jihad when he announced in April that the US lost the war. Emboldened jihadis then killed additional Americans to prove Hairy right. May was a very bloody month with more than 100 Americans killed. Bad timing Hairy...Now how many Americans will be killed for getting in Turkeys way? We may have to fight them also, and why??? Bad timing.
I basically agree with Morgaan, something should be done, but not this, and not at this time...

Greg, way to kick some butt!

Tell President Bush that it is always the right time to condemn genocide. He needs to know that telling the truth is not always convenient. As a leader who claims to live by strong moral principals and is willing to invade a sovereign nation to overthrow a corrupt and brutal Iraqi government, President Bush should understand that standing up for justice is about demanding the truth and leading others towards achieving it rather than eclipsing the truth with self serving national interests that are rooted in political allegiances with Turkey.

The bill, which denounces mass killings of Armenians during the Ottoman Empire as genocide, is between the U.S. and Armenia and should not hinge on whether the Turkish people are offended by its passage in Congress.

The bill is about the United States's full recognition of the Armenian genocide, which killed 1.5 million innocent Armenians by the Ottoman empire in the early 20th century.

After the Second World War which stopped the Nazi genocide against the Jews, the United States was resolute while standing in solidarity with the Jewish people and condemning the crimes against humanity that were committed by a brutal Nazi movement.

The United States didn't base its decision to acknowledge the Jewish genocide on whether the German people would be offended.

As a nation that prides itself on defending life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the United States should stand in solidarity with the Armenians and fully acknowedge the terrible fate that destroyed their population and caused a permanent scar on the human race.

Our American Congress should have the courage to stand on its own two feet and pass bills without the interference of Ankara.

Recently, Turkey's parliament resoundingly approved a motion last night allowing troops to cross into northern Iraq to hunt down Kurdish rebels there.

This motion will destabilize the northern region of Iraq and cause problems for the national interests of the United States in Iraq.

Turkey is not a full democracy and is not a true ally of the United States. Turkey’s threats of base closures and supply route disruptions in Iraq are shameful. Turkey failed to grant the U.S. access to its airspace during the initial stages of the American invasion of Iraq.

The United States Congress must stand for the truth and pass the Bill that acknowledges the Armenian genocide and fully recognizes the atrocities that were committed by the Turks.

Jonathan wrote:

"The United States Congress must stand for the truth and pass the Bill that acknowledges the Armenian genocide and fully recognizes the atrocities that were committed by the Turks."

Agreed, but as duh_swami wrote...timing is everything, and now is most certainly, not the proper time to do so.

Invoke blame on dead Turks when live US troops are not in imminent danger.

Greg said,
Funny, one recalls the Allied governments pretty well "sorting out the historical record" of the Third Reich at Nuremberg and elsewhere.

Yes Greg they did, but that was after any troops we had in theatre were not in harms way, or the supply lines we had could no longer be affected by sabatoge(sp).
We did not go after Russia's genocide while fighting World War II now did we? Why? Could it be we needed their help?

"Turkey is not a full democracy and is not a true ally of the United States."

Nor was the Soviet Union during Big Two -- but instead of scolding the Sovs we supplied them and worked with them to overcome a greater evil.

The Vietnam war ended in defeat because congressional Democrats moved to cut off supplies to the RVN by cutting off its funding. Now, having failed to impose a deadline for troop withdrawals from Iraq, congressional Democrats are trying for a repeat: moving to cut off supplies to combatants by angering a government that's in a position to choke a vital supply line. Only now these are our troops, not those of a client state.

The Armenian genocide merits recognition, but not through political sabotage.

Awake:

Timing doesn't matter.

Turkey is no ally of the United States.

Recently, Turkey's parliament resoundingly passed a motion that allows Turkish troops to go into Iraq. A good ally of the United States wouldn't pass this motion and disrupt U.S. security in northern Iraq.

Turkey denied U.S. acces of its airspace during the invasion of Iraq.

Good allies don't behave this way.

Telling the truth is not always convenient but it must be done with the Armenian genocide.

Papa Whiskey wrote:

" The Armenian genocide merits recognition but not through political sabotage."

Political Sabotage?????

Not a good choice selection of words.

Sabotage is an extremely STRONG word that does not seem appropriate in this context.

According the Heritage dictionary, sabotage means " the damaging of property or procedure so as to obstruct productivity or normal functioning, such as that committed by enemy agents agaiinst a nation in war."

Please explain how the U.S. Congress' passage of the bill which acknowledges the Armenian genocide is even remotely akin to a sabotage???

Decisions about historical truths concerning a genocide shouldn't have to be covered up because of the potential consequences, namely placing American troops at risk.

In fact, Turkey isn't planning to declare war on the U.S. over a full passage of this bill.

Turkey's parliament has already thumbed their noses at the U.S. by passing the motion that will allow Turkish military troops to pass into Iraq and cause conflict with the U.S.

Cutting off supply lines in Turkey will cause inconvenience for our military planners in Iraq but it won't cause American fatalities.

Lobbyists in Washington D.C. are trying to spin the facts so as to defeat passage of this Bill.

They are making it seem that if it passes, American troops will be seriously harmed.

This is called PROPAGANDA!

This is the first time the U.S. Congress has even said anything about the mass killings of dhimmis and all the right wingers are making all sorts of excuses and wimping out like Jimmy Carter.

Looks like a moral backbone is just as much lacking in the right as in the left when push comes to shove.

LMAO

At any rate, she got parked,
told her role
(which wasn't foreign policy, reminded she isn't as powerful as she thinks),
and enough saw through her circumventions for what they were
(it had nothing to do with the indisputable Armenian Genocide),
and the fact of using the dead,
for a blatant end-run,
on a cause over something completely unrelated, that had nothing to do with genocide,
has been accepted as beyond scrutiny by cooler heads who finally wised up-and backed off, seeing what her timing and motivations are all about-
altering foreign policy she has no authority on.

She got righteously smacked down.
She deserved it.
malicious timing, malicious motives...'nuf sed.

The End.

;-)

Johnathan, if timing does not matter then I am going back to sleep. Please wake me when timing does matter...thanks...

(malicious) timing, and (malicious & circumventive) motivation...but that's already in the news now.

;-)

You've gotta laugh. Imagine for a second that it was Infidel Turkey slaughtering millions of islamist Armenians.

The condemnation would never cease: the pronouncements, the documentaries, the cries for justice, the eternal shame, the solemn speeches, the pleas for forgiveness blah blah blah

But of course we're talking of the slaughter of countless worthless infidels, so who gives a flying kcuf.

And posters oh JW cheer when the resolution runs into trouble.

Such Dhimmi behaviour

After all, a muslim country, Turkey, has voiced it's displeasure so we must all meekly fall into line like good little Dhimmis, mustn't we. Let's not upset our muslim masters. Grovel grovel

My! Such Dhimmi behaviour

Morgaan Sinclair posts:
"We have different pictures of what "is". I have had Muslim friends for about 35 years, and have worked with Muslims from some 18 countries. So I have a very personalized picture over almost four decades now.

My theory is that about 85% of Muslims are actually practicing a spiritual (not orthopraxic) Islam that is NOT part of any of the eight formal schools of fiqh."

Well Sinclair--you picked the right icon as your model--Slick Willie-- who posed that all time great soul searcher as a legal deponent over a semen-stained dress--"that depends on the definition what "is" is?" Say what?

Your self authenticating (but asinine) idea that 85% of muslims are only practising spiritual islam is as ludicrous as the icon you emulate in your pronouncements. Is your point that we should not have a concern with these silent co-religionists? Judging from the number of posts and tone of your writing, you've made it a mission to tell us all that a fresh restatement of the fact of the Armenian genocide is a modern day tilting at windmills.

In case you have not picked up on it yet, one of the major premises of RS' work is to force some of your "85%" to get off their spiritual asses and separate from their tacit approval of their "orthopraxic" brethren's waging of the jihad/terror campaign. When simple aspect of that is to stop lying about reality. Do you grasp that bro?

So for the record--your man posts telling how futile it is to call the genocide "genocide" reek like stale passed gas. Translation--sell that crap somewhere else--I don't buy it.

It will always be TIMELY every single day of every single year till the millennium comes to remind the world that the Armenian genocide did occur as did the other genocides. Wake up.

Why not just blame it on Milosevich and split the difference?

Armenians assuaged

Turks absolved

and Operation Pearls Before Swine can carry on without a hitch.

That way we can all be happy

It's worked before

H.RES.106
Title: Calling upon the President to ensure that the foreign policy of the United States reflects appropriate understanding and sensitivity concerning issues related to human rights, ethnic cleansing, and genocide documented in the United States record relating to the Armenian Genocide, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Schiff, Adam B. [CA-29] (introduced 1/30/2007) Cosponsors (213)
Related Bills: S.RES.106
Latest Major Action: 10/10/2007 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Ordered to be Reported by the Yeas and Nays: 27 - 21.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COSPONSORS(213), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]: (Sort: by date)
Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ackerman, Gary L. [NY-5] - 1/31/2007
Rep Allen, Thomas H. [ME-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Andrews, Robert E. [NJ-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Arcuri, Michael A. [NY-24] - 7/18/2007 Rep Baca, Joe [CA-43] - 1/31/2007
Rep Bachmann, Michele [MN-6] - 3/1/2007 Rep Baird, Brian [WA-3] - 3/12/2007
Rep Baldwin, Tammy [WI-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Barrow, John [GA-12] - 6/20/2007
Rep Bean, Melissa L. [IL-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Becerra, Xavier [CA-31] - 1/31/2007
Rep Berkley, Shelley [NV-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Berman, Howard L. [CA-28] - 1/31/2007
Rep Bilbray, Brian P. [CA-50] - 3/12/2007 Rep Bilirakis, Gus M. [FL-9] - 1/31/2007
Rep Bishop, Timothy H. [NY-1] - 4/19/2007 Rep Blumenauer, Earl [OR-3] - 1/31/2007
Rep Bono, Mary [CA-45] - 1/31/2007 Rep Bordallo, Madeleine Z. [GU] - 6/21/2007
Rep Brady, Robert A. [PA-1] - 3/12/2007 Rep Braley, Bruce L. [IA-1] - 4/19/2007
Rep Butterfield, G. K. [NC-1] - 6/28/2007 Rep Calvert, Ken [CA-44] - 1/31/2007
Rep Camp, Dave [MI-4] - 6/7/2007 Rep Campbell, John [CA-48] - 1/31/2007
Rep Cantor, Eric [VA-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Capps, Lois [CA-23] - 1/31/2007
Rep Capuano, Michael E. [MA-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Cardoza, Dennis A. [CA-18] - 1/31/2007
Rep Carson, Julia [IN-7] - 6/28/2007 Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] - 7/10/2007
Rep Clarke, Yvette D. [NY-11] - 4/16/2007 Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Cleaver, Emanuel [MO-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 1/31/2007
Rep Costa, Jim [CA-20] - 1/31/2007 Rep Costello, Jerry F. [IL-12] - 1/31/2007
Rep Courtney, Joe [CT-2] - 5/14/2007 Rep Crowley, Joseph [NY-7] - 1/31/2007
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] - 6/28/2007 Rep Davis, Artur [AL-7] - 6/26/2007
Rep Davis, Danny K. [IL-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Davis, Susan A. [CA-53] - 1/31/2007
Rep DeFazio, Peter A. [OR-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep DeGette, Diana [CO-1] - 2/5/2007
Rep Delahunt, William D. [MA-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep DeLauro, Rosa L. [CT-3] - 1/31/2007
Rep Dent, Charles W. [PA-15] - 1/31/2007 Rep Diaz-Balart, Lincoln [FL-21] - 1/31/2007
Rep Diaz-Balart, Mario [FL-25] - 1/31/2007 Rep Dingell, John D. [MI-15] - 1/31/2007
Rep Doggett, Lloyd [TX-25] - 1/31/2007 Rep Doolittle, John T. [CA-4] - 1/31/2007
Rep Doyle, Michael F. [PA-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Dreier, David [CA-26] - 1/31/2007
Rep Ellison, Keith [MN-5] - 2/5/2007 Rep Engel, Eliot L. [NY-17] - 1/31/2007
Rep Eshoo, Anna G. [CA-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Farr, Sam [CA-17] - 1/31/2007
Rep Fattah, Chaka [PA-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ferguson, Mike [NJ-7] - 1/31/2007
Rep Filner, Bob [CA-51] - 1/31/2007 Rep Fortuno, Luis G. [PR] - 10/4/2007
Rep Frank, Barney [MA-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Frelinghuysen, Rodney P. [NJ-11] - 1/31/2007
Rep Garrett, Scott [NJ-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Gerlach, Jim [PA-6] - 1/31/2007
Rep Gillibrand, Kirsten E. [NY-20] - 7/18/2007 Rep Gonzalez, Charles A. [TX-20] - 1/31/2007
Rep Green, Al [TX-9] - 3/1/2007 Rep Green, Gene [TX-29] - 2/5/2007
Rep Grijalva, Raul M. [AZ-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Gutierrez, Luis V. [IL-4] - 1/31/2007
Rep Hall, John J. [NY-19] - 8/2/2007 Rep Hare, Phil [IL-17] - 1/31/2007
Rep Harman, Jane [CA-36] - 2/8/2007 Rep Herseth, Stephanie [SD] - 1/31/2007
Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. [NY-22] - 1/31/2007 Rep Hinojosa, Ruben [TX-15] - 1/31/2007
Rep Hirono, Mazie K. [HI-2] - 6/20/2007 Rep Hodes, Paul W. [NH-2] - 5/9/2007
Rep Holt, Rush D. [NJ-12] - 1/31/2007 Rep Honda, Michael M. [CA-15] - 1/31/2007
Rep Hunter, Duncan [CA-52] - 4/16/2007 Rep Israel, Steve [NY-2] - 1/31/2007
Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] - 1/31/2007 Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] - 1/31/2007
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 1/31/2007 Rep Jones, Stephanie Tubbs [OH-11] - 1/31/2007
Rep Kagen, Steve [WI-8] - 6/28/2007 Rep Kennedy, Patrick J. [RI-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Kildee, Dale E. [MI-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Kind, Ron [WI-3] - 1/31/2007
Rep Kingston, Jack [GA-1] - 6/26/2007 Rep Kirk, Mark Steven [IL-10] - 1/31/2007
Rep Knollenberg, Joe [MI-9] - 1/30/2007 Rep Kucinich, Dennis J. [OH-10] - 1/31/2007
Rep Kuhl, John R. "Randy", Jr. [NY-29] - 6/20/2007 Rep LaHood, Ray [IL-18] - 8/2/2007
Rep Langevin, James R. [RI-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Larson, John B. [CT-1] - 5/24/2007
Rep LaTourette, Steven C. [OH-14] - 3/1/2007 Rep Lee, Barbara [CA-9] - 1/31/2007
Rep Levin, Sander M. [MI-12] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 1/31/2007
Rep Lipinski, Daniel [IL-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep LoBiondo, Frank A. [NJ-2] - 1/31/2007
Rep Lofgren, Zoe [CA-16] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lowey, Nita M. [NY-18] - 1/31/2007
Rep Lungren, Daniel E. [CA-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Lynch, Stephen F. [MA-9] - 1/31/2007
Rep Maloney, Carolyn B. [NY-14] - 1/31/2007 Rep Marchant, Kenny [TX-24] - 2/8/2007
Rep Markey, Edward J. [MA-7] - 1/31/2007 Rep Marshall, Jim [GA-8] - 6/26/2007
Rep Matheson, Jim [UT-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Matsui, Doris O. [CA-5] - 1/31/2007
Rep McCarthy, Carolyn [NY-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep McCarthy, Kevin [CA-22] - 2/5/2007
Rep McCaul, Michael T. [TX-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep McCollum, Betty [MN-4] - 1/31/2007
Rep McCotter, Thaddeus G. [MI-11] - 1/30/2007 Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 1/31/2007
Rep McGovern, James P. [MA-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep McHugh, John M. [NY-23] - 8/2/2007
Rep McKeon, Howard P. "Buck" [CA-25] - 1/31/2007 Rep McMorris Rodgers, Cathy [WA-5] - 1/31/2007
Rep McNerney, Jerry [CA-11] - 2/5/2007 Rep McNulty, Michael R. [NY-21] - 1/31/2007
Rep Meehan, Martin T. [MA-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Meek, Kendrick B. [FL-17] - 6/21/2007
Rep Melancon, Charlie [LA-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Michaud, Michael H. [ME-2] - 2/8/2007
Rep Millender-McDonald, Juanita [CA-37] - 1/31/2007 Rep Miller, Candice S. [MI-10] - 1/31/2007
Rep Miller, Gary G. [CA-42] - 3/29/2007 Rep Miller, George [CA-7] - 1/31/2007
Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Murphy, Christopher S. [CT-5] - 5/21/2007
Rep Musgrave, Marilyn N. [CO-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Nadler, Jerrold [NY-8] - 1/31/2007
Rep Napolitano, Grace F. [CA-38] - 1/31/2007 Rep Neal, Richard E. [MA-2] - 1/31/2007
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes [DC] - 1/31/2007 Rep Nunes, Devin [CA-21] - 1/31/2007
Rep Olver, John W. [MA-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Pallone, Frank, Jr. [NJ-6] - 1/30/2007
Rep Pastor, Ed [AZ-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Payne, Donald M. [NJ-10] - 1/31/2007
Rep Perlmutter, Ed [CO-7] - 3/29/2007 Rep Peterson, Collin C. [MN-7] - 1/31/2007
Rep Pitts, Joseph R. [PA-16] - 6/7/2007 Rep Porter, Jon C. [NV-3] - 1/31/2007
Rep Radanovich, George [CA-19] - 1/30/2007 Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] - 1/31/2007
Rep Reichert, David G. [WA-8] - 4/16/2007 Rep Renzi, Rick [AZ-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Richardson, Laura [CA-37] - 10/4/2007 Rep Rodriguez, Ciro D. [TX-23] - 6/26/2007
Rep Rogers, Mike J. [MI-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Rohrabacher, Dana [CA-46] - 1/31/2007
Rep Roskam, Peter J. [IL-6] - 5/21/2007 Rep Rothman, Steven R. [NJ-9] - 1/31/2007
Rep Roybal-Allard, Lucille [CA-34] - 1/31/2007 Rep Royce, Edward R. [CA-40] - 1/31/2007
Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Ryan, Paul [WI-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Ryan, Tim [OH-17] - 1/31/2007 Rep Salazar, John T. [CO-3] - 4/16/2007
Rep Sanchez, Linda T. [CA-39] - 1/31/2007 Rep Sanchez, Loretta [CA-47] - 1/31/2007
Rep Sarbanes, John P. [MD-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Schakowsky, Janice D. [IL-9] - 1/31/2007
Rep Schwartz, Allyson Y. [PA-13] - 1/31/2007 Rep Scott, Robert C. "Bobby" [VA-3] - 6/28/2007
Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. [WI-5] - 1/31/2007 Rep Serrano, Jose E. [NY-16] - 6/26/2007
Rep Shays, Christopher [CT-4] - 1/31/2007 Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27] - 1/30/2007
Rep Sires, Albio [NJ-13] - 1/31/2007 Rep Smith, Christopher H. [NJ-4] - 1/31/2007
Rep Solis, Hilda L. [CA-32] - 1/31/2007 Rep Souder, Mark E. [IN-3] - 1/31/2007
Rep Space, Zachary T. [OH-18] - 3/12/2007 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] - 1/31/2007
Rep Sutton, Betty [OH-13] - 3/29/2007 Rep Tauscher, Ellen O. [CA-10] - 1/31/2007
Rep Thompson, Bennie G. [MS-2] - 6/20/2007 Rep Thompson, Mike [CA-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Tierney, John F. [MA-6] - 1/31/2007 Rep Towns, Edolphus [NY-10] - 1/31/2007
Rep Udall, Mark [CO-2] - 1/31/2007 Rep Udall, Tom [NM-3] - 5/14/2007
Rep Van Hollen, Chris [MD-8] - 1/31/2007 Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [NY-12] - 2/5/2007
Rep Visclosky, Peter J. [IN-1] - 1/31/2007 Rep Walberg, Timothy [MI-7] - 6/7/2007
Rep Walsh, James T. [NY-25] - 2/8/2007 Rep Walz, Timothy J. [MN-1] - 1/31/2007
Rep Wamp, Zach [TN-3] - 1/31/2007 Rep Waters, Maxine [CA-35] - 1/31/2007
Rep Watson, Diane E. [CA-33] - 1/31/2007 Rep Watt, Melvin L. [NC-12] - 6/28/2007
Rep Waxman, Henry A. [CA-30] - 1/31/2007 Rep Weiner, Anthony D. [NY-9] - 1/31/2007
Rep Weller, Jerry [IL-11] - 1/31/2007 Rep Wilson, Joe [SC-2] - 1/31/2007
Rep Wolf, Frank R. [VA-10] - 1/31/2007 Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. [CA-6] - 1/31/2007
Rep Wu, David [OR-1] - 2/8/2007 Rep Wynn, Albert Russell [MD-4] - 1/31/2007
Rep Yarmuth, John A. [KY-3] - 7/10/2007
Rep Berry, Marion [AR-1] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007) Rep Kilpatrick, Carolyn C. [MI-13] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007)
Rep English, Phil [PA-3] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 3/15/2007) Rep Jindal, Bobby [LA-1] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 1/31/2007)
Rep Holden, Tim [PA-17] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/16/2007) Rep Bishop, Sanford D., Jr. [GA-2] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007)
Rep Carnahan, Russ [MO-3] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/2/2007) Rep Shimkus, John [IL-19] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/4/2007)
Rep Boren, Dan [OK-2] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 5/2/2007) Rep Davis, Lincoln [TN-4] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007)
Rep Moore, Dennis [KS-3] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 3/13/2007) Rep Ross, Mike [AR-4] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007)
Rep Scott, David [GA-13] - 1/31/2007(withdrawn - 4/18/2007) Rep Johnson, Henry C. "Hank," Jr. [GA-4] - 2/8/2007(withdrawn - 10/16/2007)
Rep Lamborn, Doug [CO-5] - 2/8/2007(withdrawn - 10/16/2007) Rep Tancredo, Thomas G. [CO-6] - 4/19/2007(withdrawn - 6/27/2007)
Rep Mitchell, Harry E. [AZ-5] - 6/21/2007(withdrawn - 10/16/2007) Rep Cuellar, Henry [TX-28] - 6/26/2007(withdrawn - 10/9/2007)
Rep Wicker, Roger F. [MS-1] - 6/26/2007(withdrawn - 6/28/2007) Rep Boyd, Allen [FL-2] - 6/28/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007)
Rep Larsen, Rick [WA-2] - 6/28/2007(withdrawn - 10/17/2007) Rep Herger, Wally [CA-2] - 7/18/2007(withdrawn - 10/15/2007

......more are expected to withdraw soon....

HR 106: How Did They Vote?
The House Foreign Affairs Committee voted 27-21 to pass the non-binding House Resolution 106 to be put to the full House for a vote . . .

Here's how they voted:

There are 27 Democrats, and 23 Republicans on the committee.

19 Democrats and 8 Republicans voted for the measure.
8 Democrats and 13 Republicans voted against the measure.
2 Republicans did not vote.
The vote was 27-21 for the measure.

Voting for the measure: 27 (19 Democrats, 8 Republicans)

Tom Lantos (D-CA), Chairman,
Gary Ackerman (D-NY),
Howard Berman (D-CA),
Jim Costa (D-CA),
Joseph Crowley (D-NY),
William Delahunt (D-MA),
Eliot Engel (D-NY),
Eni F. H. Faleomavaega (D-SM*),
Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ),
Gene Green (D-TX),
Sheila Jackson Lee (D-TX),
Ron Klein (D-FL),
Donald Payne (D-NJ),
Linda Sanchez (D-CA),
Brad Sherman (D-CA),
Albio Sires (D-NJ),
Diane Watson (D-CA),
Lynn Woolsey (D-CA),
David Wu (D-OR),

Gus Bilirakis (R-FL),
Steve Chabot (R-OH),
Elton Gallegly (R-CA),
Donald Manzullo (R-IL),
Michael McCaul (R-TX),
Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), My Congressman,
Edward Royce (R-CA),
Christopher Smith (R-NJ),

Voting against the measure: 21 (8 Democrats, 13 Republicans)

Russ Carnahan (D-MO),
Ruben Hinojosa (D-TX),
Gregory Meeks (D-NY),
Brad Miller (D-NC),
David Scott (D-GA),
Adam Smith (D-WA),
John Tanner (D-TN),
Robert Wexler (D-FL).

Gresham Barrett (R-SC),
Roy Blunt (R-MO),
John Boozman (R-AR),
Dan Burton (R-IN),
Jeff Flake (R-AZ),
Jeff Fortenberry (R-NE),
Luis Fortuno (R-PR),
Bob Inglis (R-SC),
Connie Mack (R-FL)
Mike Pence (R-IN),
Ted Poe (R-TX),
Illeana Ros-Lehtinen (R-FL),
Thomas Tancredo (R-CO), Currently running for President of the US,

Did not vote:

Ron Paul (R-TX) Currently running for President of the United States (Libertarian),
Joe Wilson (R-SC)

I was against the Iraq War from the very start, believing it an act of aggression and accepting none of the Republican and Democratic justifications. And now we see another of its bitter fruits. The great United States must not express an opinion--especially one well founded in facts--for fear of endangering our 140,000 armed hostages (plus 120,000 mercenaries). And this after we refused to support NATO ally Denmark during the cartoon rage. So this is the sum of our ueber-patriotism: it's OK to conquer and bomb Muslims who have done us no particular wrong, at least for a while, but it's not OK to express an opinion that offends them. Let's get the troops out now and then tell the truth about the Armenians. Pelosi is utterly spineless. She won't stand up to Bush ("do X or you're aiding the terrorists") or Turkey ("don't do X or we'll endanger your troops").

As for the Belgians, why would it be so terrible to pass a resolution condemning their massacres in the Congo? Chopping people's arms off to force them to harvest rubber deserves some comment. King Leopold deserves to be known as one of history's monsters.

Jonathan wrote:

"Cutting off supply lines in Turkey will cause inconvenience for our military planners in Iraq but it won't cause American fatalities."

You can not substantiate that claim, and I don't need a lecture on Turkey. I know exactly what they are. This atrocity happened a long time ago and the timing of this proposed resolution could not have come at a more inopportune time.

The truth is the truth, no matter when it is put forth. Propaganda and lobbying swings both ways.

The minute we have withdrawn from the area, when no one can continue to support this colossal waste of military and economic resources any longer, then pass the damn resolution.

If Pelosi is associated at all with this resolution, it is all but certain that it only serves her interests and nobody else, not even the Armenians.

BB ...

If all you can do is lie, put a sock in your mouth until you learn basic morality and decency.

I never talked about "Slick Willie" so your conflation with what I said is despicable, as is most of the rest of your behavior.

I never once voted for him, never once said I thought he was right about anything.

So, try to find both your adult and your ethics, if, in fact, you ever had either.

Morgaan Sinclair, I have to say that Ireally can't understand where you come from on this issue and others I've read from you.

The Armenian and Pontic Greek genocides are real, the word holocaust was originally used for these genocides. It means "all or everything Burnt" in Greek.

The attempt to tie the Russians to this one is disgusting, once again I see you are defending the Islamic perpetrators. As stated before, I don't get where you are coming from and where you get this strange info.

awake ...

He can't prove that no soldiers would die if Turkey cut the supply routes for about 60% of everything going into Iraq.

Somebody said that this is akin demanding the British take responsibility for the Irish potato famine while we're trying to fight WWII.

The most pertinent sentence in this whole thing is this one:

The result could endanger our national security interests in the region, including our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, and damage efforts to promote reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey.

LETTER BY SECRETARIES OF STATE TO SPEAKER PELOSI
September 25, 2007
The Honorable
Nancy Pelosi
Speaker of the House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515-0508

Dear Madam Speaker:

We are writing to express concern that H. Res. 106 could soon be put to a vote.

Passage of the resolution would harm our foreign policy objectives to promote reconciliation
between Turkey and Armenia. It would also strain our relations with Turkey, and would
endanger our national security interests in the region, including the safety of our troops in Iraq
and Afghanistan.

We do not minimize or deny the enormous significance of the horrible tragedy suffered
by ethnic Armenians from 1915 to 1923. During our tenures as Secretaries of State, we each
supported Presidential statements recognizing the mass killings and forced exile of Armenians.
It has been longstanding U.S. policy to encourage reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia
and to urge the government of Turkey to acknowledge the tragedy. We understand the
Administration continues to urge the Turkish government to reexamine its history and to
encourage both Turkey and Armenia to work towards reconciliation, including normalizing
relations and opening the border. There are some hopeful signs already that both parties are
engaging each other. We believe that a public statement by the U.S. Congress at this juncture
is likely to undermine what has been painstakingly achieved to date.

We must also recognize the important contributions Turkey is making to U.S. national
security, including security and stability in the Middle East and Europe. The United States
continues to rely on Turkey for its geo-strategic importance. Turkey is an indispensable
partner to our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, helping U.S. troops to combat terrorism and
build security. By providing the U.S. military with access to Turkish airspace, military bases,
and the border crossing with Iraq, Turkey is a linchpin in the transshipment of vital cargo and
fuel resources to U.S. troops, coalition partners, and Iraqi civilians. Turkish troops serve
shoulder-to-shoulder with distinction with U.S. and other NATO allies in the Balkans. Turkey is
also a transit hub for non-OPEC oil and gas and remains key to our efforts to help the Euro-
Atlantic community bolster its energy security by providing alternative supply sources and
routes around Russia and Iran.

It is our view that passage of this resolution could quickly extend beyond symbolic
significance. The popularly elected Turkish Grand National Assembly might react strongly to a
House resolution, as it did to a French National Assembly resolution a year ago. The result
could endanger our national security interests in the region, including our troops in Iraq and
Afghanistan, and damage efforts to promote reconciliation between Armenia and Turkey. We
strongly urge you to prevent the resolution from reaching the House floor.

Sincerely,

Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
Henry A. Kissinger
George P. Shultz
James A. Baker III
Lawrence S. Eagleburger
Warren Christopher
Madeleine K. Albright
Colin L. Powell

Passage of H. Res. 106 would have a
direct, detrimental effect on the operational capabilities, safety and well being of our armed
forces in Iraq and in Afghanistan

LETTER BY SECRETARIES OF DEFENSE TO SPEAKER PELOSI

September 7, 2007
The Honorable
Nancy Pelosi
Speaker, U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Madam Speaker:

We write today to convey our deep concern regarding the damage that passage of H. Res. 106
could do to relations between the United States and Turkey, a long-time NATO ally and a
country which plays a critical role in supporting U.S. national security interests in the Balkans,
greater Middle East, the Black Sea region and Afghanistan. The depth and breadth of our
defense and security relationship with Turkey are considerable, and, as former Secretaries of
Defense, we value Turkey’s friendship and partnership.

Turkey makes numerous and substantial contributions to U.S. goals and interests abroad,
including its close relationship with Israel, its deployment of military forces to the Balkans and
its contribution to the NATO effort to defeat terrorism and support democracy in Afghanistan.
Just as public opinion plays a crucial role in our own country, the reaction of the Turkish public
to the passage of H. Res. 106 would be considerable. Passage of H. Res. 106 would have a
direct, detrimental effect on the operational capabilities, safety and well being of our armed
forces in Iraq and in Afghanistan because the Turkish parliament would likely respond to the
Turkish public’s call for action by restricting or cutting off U.S. access to the Turkish air base at
Incirlik and closing the crossing into Iraq at the Flabur Gate. The Turkish parliament would also
likely retract blanket flight clearances for U.S. military overflights, which are vital to
transporting supplies and fuel to our troops. We also believe the increasingly open debate
about this issue in Turkey would surely be restricted by a negative public reaction to U.S.
Congressional action. We are also concerned that any potential steps toward better relations
between Turkey and Armenia will be set back by any action in the U. S. Congress.

In stating our opposition to H. Res. 106, we do not suggest that anything other than the most
terrible of tragedies took place as the Ottoman Empire disintegrated in the early part of the
last century. As President Bush and other Presidents before him have done, we recognize the
need to acknowledge and learn from the tragedy. We respect that this issue is of great concern
to you, and hope that you can consider other appropriate ways to highlight, commemorate and
honor the memory of the victims without doing damage to our contemporary relations with
modern Turkey.

Sincerely,

William Cohen
Frank Carlucci
William Perry

Assuming (probably incorrectly) that another point of view is acceptable among present ladies and gentlemen, I am going to repost writing from another site. The purpose of this is to point out how MUCH information is restricted or outright censored in this debate.

From: www.bloggernews.net

# Lynn Says:
October 18th, 2007 at 6:32 am

To pretend this resolution is about condemning ‘another government from another time’ and has nothing to do with the Turkey or Turks of today is disingenuous to say the least.

Anyone with any knowledge about this issue knows that issue of recognizing Armenian genocide claims is tied to LAND RESTITUTION CLAIMS.

Stunningly, at the urging of the Armenian Diaspora, this resolution has been drafted to allege that the alleged genocide occurred from 1915-1923, which is outrageously incorrect. Relocation orders were issued in 1915 to remove Armenians from locations near the Russian front. However, BEFORE WWI ended, orders were issued repeatedly to stop relocating Armenians.

Starting in 1919, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk and the nationalists under him began the war of independence against the Ottoman sultanate. During that time, the so called “French” Armenian Legion invaded South East Anatolia aided by the French. Why? Because the French wanted control over the oil fields in what is now Northern Iraq. At the same time, there was an unprovoked invasion by the Greeks to the west, conducted under the watchful eye of the British.

This resolution was deliberately written to include as “genocide” this period of time, long after WWI and when Armenians were clearly waging an all out war against Turks. The intent can only be, if this resolution is ever adopted, to next allege that the modern Republic of Turkey is responsible for the “genocidal” acts occurring during 1919-1923 under the leadership of those officials who formed the modern republic.

This is characteristic of the Diaspora’s methods. They are dishonest, dishonorable, in denial that their own Dashnak revolutionary forces openly declared war against the Ottoman government during WWI, which then set into motion a horrific series of events in which Ottoman Muslims and Armenians massacred each other on an industrial scale, while the Allies idly stood by and watched. They eagerly and openly promote ethnic hatred of Turks and Turkey.

They refuse to release the archives of the Armenian revolutionary parties operating in concert with Russia and France during WWI, and declare it is Turkey that must prove that a genocide did NOT occur!!

Moreover, the one and only Turkish citizen that was granted into the Armenian archives, was arrested by Armenian authorities as he was boarding a plane to come back to the States to return to his doctoral program at Duke. He was arrested for buying books, old books, and having the audacity to think he could take them with him when he left. All of his research was confiscated and he was imprisoned for several months and finally tried and convicted of some bizarre law relating to printed matter more than 50 years old.

Furthermore, in Armenia, it is illegal to possess a copy of the Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Armenian Republic. Why? Katchaznouni was a leader of the Dashnak revolutionaries during WWI. In his manifesto, he honorably takes responsibility for the Armenians inability to achieve a Greater Armenia in SE Anatolia. He acknowledges that the Dashnak leadership overestimated the support the Russians and French were willing to provide, and grossly underestimated the resolve of the Turks to keep their homeland. Most strikingly, he actually states that the Ottomans knew what the Dashnaks’ goals were and that they were justified in doing what they did to protect their lands.

Freedom of speech and freedom of inquiry when it comes to Armenian genocide claims only exists for those who accept the Diaspora’s claims without question. Let’s not also forget, that Professor Stanford Shaw, one of the most renowned historians of Ottoman history, concluded there was no Armenian genocide, only a failed attempt at forming an independent nation. As a result, Armenians bombed his house in Los Angeles, Armenians disrupted his classes at USC and essentially made it impossible to remain in the U.S.

Some of the first acts of terror that occurred in the U.S. were committed by Armenian terrorists who murdered over 70 Turkish diplomats (and members of their family, including children) as well as people of other nationalities who were unfortunate enough to be in the vicinity during a span of 12 years, starting in 1972.

Apparently, among the Diaspora, freedom of speech and civil liberties like the right to life, libert and the pursuit of happiness are only permitted if you mindlessly and unquestioningly support their claims.

Finally, what I find most offensive about all of this is, these people are American born Armenians. Our country is at war. If you were Americans first, our Congress wouldn’t be wasting its precious time on an event for which historical archives are still withheld, rather than on healthcare issues for children or maybe what’s going on today in Darfur. The living come first, not the dead.

Morgaan Sinclair wrote:

awake ...

"He can't prove that no soldiers would die if Turkey cut the supply routes for about 60% of everything going into Iraq."

Did I state otherwise in your estimation?

Dear Fanatic ...

If there's nothing to tie the Russians to this, all they have to do is to open their archives and stop hiding what's there.

Read Lynn's post above. I don't agree with her obviously pro-Turkish stance, but there is a lot in that post that points to a MASSIVE cover-up and control of information.

Particularly interesting is the censorship of the writings of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, First Prime Minister of the Armenian Republic..

Now, why aren't we allowed the truth? And why is Pelosi, who knows of this censorship, completely excising the problem of there being no full accounting of this event.

The real problem for me in this, besides its being dangerous for American troops already put at risk by the INCREDIBLE viciousness of the Democratic Party and the MSM toward their safety, is that the burgeoning peace between the Turkish and Armenian populations IN SITU, NOT ABROAD, is being threatened by this action, and every one similar to it -- in exactly the way that the PKK, very unhappy now with the growing Kurdish satisfaction with the Erdogan government (which has restored its religious freedom and ethnic rights all over Southern Turkey) can't wait to start a war. If they don't do it now, they think, in five years the Kurds north of the border will be sufficiently assimilated into Turkish culture with full ethnic rights, that they won't be able to make a case for breaking up both countries (Turkey, as well as Iraq) and forming a new country.

If you think Kosovo becoming independent is a problem, try Kurdistan.

AIKEN:

My goodness, that was a good try, but no cigar. This is DIRECTLY from the website I gave. Your synopsis above seems to have "missed" this. However, so people are clear, here it is again.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide2.htm
See yellow shaded box, one among many.

MASS CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY AND GENOCIDES:
A LIST OF ATROCITIES:
1450 CE TO THE END OF WORLD WAR II

Time: 1885 to early 1900s

Location: Democratic Republic of the Congo, formerly Belgium Congo and Congo Free State

Perpetrators: King Leopold II of Belgium and his colonial administration

Victims: Congolese population

Number of victims: Unknown. Estimates range from 3 million during part of the period, to 30 million.

awake ...

I was agreeing with you [s].

Sceptico ...

See "Lynn's" post (under my name) above. If we are not allowed to read the Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first Prime Minister of Armenia, because it contains an account of this period that is inimical to current Armenian claims—if we are not allowed to see the US and Russian files on this subject—if even questioning the incomplete current account brings charges against historians in France (which is deeply culpable here, as it is in Iraqi affairs), then how are we to make a judgment that is clear and fair.

And besides, all eight living former secretaries of state and the three living former secretaries of defense — Democrats and Republicans — all agree that this resolution will SCREW UP the Turks and Armenians in central Asia, no matter what the Armenians here in the USA would like to do.

I agree that having ourselves muzzled by situations in the Middle East is infuriating. However, the solution to that is not some resolution the history of which is unclear to say the least.

The solution is to get Sean Hannity's handlers to put a sock in his mouth and get out there and solve the oil problem. NOW.

That is our only freedom in this or any other matter.

From a selfish European perspective, I can only say that I'm all for a chain of events that leads to the ending of any possibility of Turkey joining the EU. Reminding everybody that they massacred 1.5 million Christians ninety years ago and are too mendacious even to admit it now is a good start. Notice how the event is always referred to as the 'Armenian massacres' as though it was some central Asian tribe with no connection to the west at all and something separate from the simultaneous killings of Assyrian Christians. Explaining things away as a by-product of WWI hardly explains the events of 1894-1896.This is probably because western governments and opinion formers have had their own reasons of expediency for sweeping the thing under the carpet all these years.

Since Turkey has proved itself such an unreliable ally the Americans will probably find it advisable to make other logistical arrangements anyway. Whenever the Brits gave some imperial possession independence they always left it with an impeccably liberal constitution and judiciary: in at least three out of four cases the places were run by military dictators within five years. I can't see what America expects to gain by staying in Iraq a moment longer than is absolutely necessary. They should scrape together some anti-Shite coalition among the local powers,clobber Iran's nuclear facilities and then get out.

And posters oh JW cheer when the resolution runs into trouble.

Such Dhimmi behaviour
Posted by: ewha1

Oh, and we all know what a great ally Turkey was when we wanted to invade Iraq from the North. My solution - recall all US diplomatic personnel from Turkey, and expel all Turkish personnel in the US, and end diplomatic relations. Oh, and deport all those State Department vermin like Alexander M. Haig, Jr., Henry A. Kissinger, George P. Shultz, James A. Baker III, Lawrence S. Eagleburger, Warren Christopher, Madeleine K. Albright, Colin L. Powell and Condoleeza Rice to Istanbul - drop them on the Sofia Haglia.

P.S. Seeing Tancredo's name among those who voted against above, I'm ending my support to him

Morgaan Sinclair

You say these people support you! This is your proof that you are right!

The names:

William Cohen
Frank Carlucci
William Perry
Alexander M. Haig, Jr.
Henry A. Kissinger
George P. Shultz
James A. Baker III
Lawrence S. Eagleburger
Warren Christopher
Madeleine K. Albright
Colin L. Powell

This is your proof that you are right! Becuase Baker and Eagleburger support your position! Hahahahahahahahahahaha! You have out done yourself this time! This is like a rouges gallery of professional dhimmis.

This takes the cake! It really does!

"It is our view that passage of this resolution could quickly extend beyond symbolic
significance. The popularly elected Turkish Grand National Assembly might react strongly to a
House resolution, as it did to a French National Assembly resolution a year ago..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/102803.stm

Dear god the French beat us to it. I did not remember this. Oh I am really sick now. Even the dam French are ahead of the curve on this one. The FRENCH folks! This beyond bad. It is really all over! Turn out the lights the party is over...

I need a drink...

Morgaan Sinclair, your fault is in looking at the larger picture.

All the rest of you tools must take off your jihad blinders and desist in your predictably synchophantic rants.

If this resolution is so GD important, call your congressman and demand that it be BINDING.

Yes, CG, I know. I want to win the war, not just bitch about it ad nauseum.

GC1577 ... The reason the French leapt at it is that it helps them deny their part in this, which Lynn refers to above. You don't actually think that they did this out of any morality. They're sitting on more files containing their damning behavior both in Turkey and Iraq than you can possibly imagine.

So, the trick is this: Make it ILLEGAL to say anything other than the French version that they want you to adopt. Make it PUNISHABLE TO DO SO.

ROTTEN TO THE CORE. Have them hand over these archives (about the Russian front and the Armenians) when they hand over the oil-for-food stuff about those nifty little French banks.

And take a powder, my dear [weg], you seem to be all atizzy and must calm yourself before you faint on us or something.

Tell President Bush that it is always the right time to condemn genocide. He needs to know that telling the truth is not always convenient. As a leader who claims to live by strong moral principals...

That statement is what it comes down to. We have the opportunity to take this small, long overdue step toward proclaiming the truth of what happened.

I don't want to put our troops in any more danger than anyone else, but if we want to take a real and tangible step to truly save American lives my fellow conservatives who are so worked up over this should be making ten times more noise over the insane rules of engagement or the total lack of adequately armored vehicles. Our troops are driving around in thin skinned humvees when they should be in LAV's or other better equipped & armored troop transport vehicles....

This same line of insane thinking is why Chaldeans and other Christians in Iraq are being slaugthered without a peep from the adminstration.

But I guess its another situation where we don't want to rock the boat and offend another government so in this case substitute Iraq government for Turkish government and again minimize and keep quite about the slaugther of the indeginous Christians...

OT ...

Fjordman has written a FANTASTIC post for Global Politician.

http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=3649&cid=1&sid=37

It's written in support of an Aussie pastor who will NOT take back what he said about Muslims and is being thoroughly harassed for his anti-dhimmi behavior.

I know I'm repeating other comments, but the problem with making exaggerations to prove a point is that it makes one look foolish when a correction is made. It is estimated that 8-10 million perished unger Leopold's rule.

http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria16_2.html

Ten million is a lot of people, but thirty million? Hitler could only dream of those numbers. Furthermore, the world realized what Leopold did and he was reviled for it.

Also since the US and Russia was at war with Germany, and Germany's allies (including Turkey), please, Morgaaaaan, find a piece of evidence to support your contention that we and the Czar supported anything Turkey did.

Manifesto of Hovhannes:

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/1923Manifesto-record.htm

There are other sources.

Let's read it and draw our own conclusions.

Pelaaaaaaaaaayahoo ...

I have supplied it, and if you wish to go further, you will need to do the research yourself. Note that the estimated population before the slaughter of the Congolese is 30+ million and 9 after. Neither figure is a proper census. Therefore, the statement made is as many as 30 million. As I say above, I would limit my personal guess to 21-23 million.

However, if you would like to DECLARE that 30 million is not accurate, please give your basis for doing so. Your starting and ending census figures, etc., as I have done.

With regard to your "tall Armenian tales" all the "link" to the "original" are circular, ad bring you back to what is SUPPOSED to be a translation (by whom) from a source that cannot be tapped.

This is why there really needs to be an opening of the books.

Merely citing a tawdry website with circular "sources" pointing only back to themselves is not enough.

BTW, the tactic you're using -- it's not THAT many dead, so we don't have to think about it or deal with it -- is one tawdry little tactic, man! I'm embarrassed for people when I see them do this.

I think the genocide bill is an excuse, this is basically a way for the islamist Erdogan to further the islamist agenda in Iraq by destabilizing Iraq all the while currying favor with the Turkish military that don't like that he is an islamist. The US military should have seen this one coming ever since Turkey promised to let a division through into Iraq, then even as that divison and equipment was on it's way, reneged on that promise at the last minute by a fraudulent vote that just "happened" to miss the majority necessary by a single vote. Erdogan's party was involved in it bigtime now he is president and upping the ante. Turkey should have been kicked out of NATO for that stunt with the division that was supposed to invade northern Iraq, because allies simply don't do things like that, and we keep Turkey in NATO at our own risk.

True, our options in the region are limited, but we should definitely not abandon what is probably our most reliable ally (other then Israel) the Kurds. As far as the threat of Turkey cutting off military cooperation with the US, maybe the Turks are a little confused, no? Last time I heard it was the US that was providing military weapons to Turkey, not Turkey to US. If the US cuts that off, do Turks think Russia will sell to them? I doubt Russia would. Maybe they can get the overpriced, untested stuff from the EU....

Passing this measure is stupid, counterproductive, and patently unwise. Its already been mentioned that this will significantly impact the flow of materials into Iraq, it could also impact use of Turkish airspace especially Incirlik. Any argument in favor of this bill has to address that issue. Several people have asked when will be the right time. The answer is sometime when a purely symbolic gesture won’t endanger US troops. Its called being a realist, and its part of dealing with the real world. If you saying the US should sacrifice for this measure, please do the same: move to Turkey and protest in Istanbul. You’ll do far more for the cause then what will be viewed around the world as yet another instance of America “imposing its cultural viewpoint on the rest of the world.”

Just as important, I don’t want to see Congress legislating history. Even if its history I agree with. You may be happy now, when they call for recognition of the Armenian genocide. But what about when a different Congress condemns the Israeli “ethnic cleansing” of the Palestinians, or Christianity’s long history of “cultural/colonial expansion”. Each of those have their supporters, so are we just going to decide history by a show of hands? Or are we only going to support the moral bravery when we agree with the resolution?

Congress should be pressuring all countries, not just Turkey, to allow free debate of history. This goes for holocaust deniers in Europe as well as genocide deniers in Turkey. We should be pressuring for the open debate of these matters, both are ridiculously well documented. By allowing the debates to be silenced, it only strengthens the deniers. Open confrontation and academic debate completely undermines every position deniers can take. This is why Ahmadinejad looked so poor when confronted at Columbia. In front of an educated audience, he was forced to change from “did the holocaust happen?” to “well, if it did, then why…” and even then he looked sheepish, kind of like when a theologian has to defend a church position dictated by 10th century science. Pressure the Turks to allow the free debate. They’ve already accepted (for the most part) that there were mass killings and even the numbers are in general agreement. The final step must be taken by the Turks themselves. Greg states that the US sorted out Germany’s record at Nuremburg; he’s wrong. The German’s sorted it out themselves over the course of a generation, with the Allies ensuring a relatively open forum. That’s the difference between Japan and Germany. Germany looked at their crimes and through a national dialogue accepted the truth. Japan had the same trials Germany did, with pretty much the same results, but never owned their guilt. Which is why such high levels of denial exist in Japan with regards to Japan’s crimes preceding and during WWII. Congress and those useless blue-hats at the UN need to push for academic freedom and academic transparency.

Finally, spare me with regards to how this was a brave move by Pelosi. This was a cold political decision from the get-go. She knew the President wasn’t going to allow the bill to pass, just like she knew she’d never get the votes to overrule a veto. That’s why she made it a non-binding resolution. She knew that internationally, it would be Bush who takes the blame (as the defacto American representative-at-large) regardless of his position, while domestically they could point to his opposition (like any sitting president to a motion guaranteed to infuriate a relevant ally) as a sign that Bush wasn’t willing to oppose genocide.

"True, our options in the region are limited, but we should definitely not abandon what is probably our most reliable ally (other then Israel) the Kurds. As far as the threat of Turkey cutting off military cooperation with the US, maybe the Turks are a little confused, no? Last time I heard it was the US that was providing military weapons to Turkey, not Turkey to US. If the US cuts that off, do Turks think Russia will sell to them? I doubt Russia would. Maybe they can get the overpriced, untested stuff from the EU.... "

Godfrey, this is really not the most well thought out post I've ever read (that sounds a lot harsher than I meant it), I think you might want to look at just about every statement you made. The Kurds make only the most basic effort to comply with the United States. That they have gone along with most US initiatives in Iraq is solely because every one of those initiatives has favored the Kurds. The Kurds have ignored the US on the only issues the US has attempted to oppose (regional oil rights and curtailing the PKK separatists). Meanwhile the Turks (or at least their military class) has supported the US, including maintaining the best diplomatic relations with Isreal of any Middle Eastern nation, supporting the US during the Cold War, and respecting Iraqi sovereignty in the face of repeated cross border attacks. Turkey is already curtailing the purchase of US hardware, so to answer your question, yes they will go elsewhere and the Russians will sell nuke equipment to Iran and advanced ground and air systems to their most dangerous neighbor (China) so of course they will sell to Turkey. Especially since improved relations between Turkey and Russia would ensure Russian access to the Med.

Also, you bring up Erdogan as a factor. This vote only strengthens his hand. Turks have two identities: Turkish and Islamic. Its the same issue you have with the Persian Iranians. Just as the nuke issue gives the Islamic Iranians a Persian unifying factor, so the genocide issue allows Islamists in Turkey to pull their nationalist oponents onto their side. Where the nukes represent a security matter that has to be discussed, the Armenian issue does not. More over, dismissing Turkey from NATO for its refusal to participate is ignorant at best. NATO is a defensive treaty, Iraq (regardless of what side of that issue you are on) was not defensive and the US did not petition activation of NATO. Additionally, by that logic the US could be "expelled" from NATO for failing to support Turkey in its conflict with Greece in Cyprus, and a non-ironic point could be made about the US's failure to support major NATO ally UK after it being attacked by Argentina in the Falklands.

Finally, punishing the Turks for being the most foresighted of the US allies is just plain stupid. The Turkish military could have allowed the transit and ultimately it was the military the ended that debate. The office corp (the Attaturks) have long supported the position that the middle east is not ready for liberal/populist democracy, and won't be ready until Islam as a political entity is removed from the equation. The officers opposed the invasion not because the feared a Shia revival or because of territorial concerns but because they knew the only thing keeping Iraq together was a brutal dictator and the only way a US invasion would result in post-war peace was if the US would install a dictator (which wasn't going to happen. Hell, the military knows their own country isn't ready for a full democracy which is why the military has stepped in so many times.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/10/congresss_new_role_undermining.html

Aside from all the arguments against Congress's making this case now, if ever, there comes a statement from a National Review columnist, stating that the Armenian slaughters were not genocidal:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTAxNThjN2UyZjExNmRhOTY1OTU3OTNiMzEzNDJjY2Y=

From Infidel Pride:" we rightly pile on the Dems when they are on the side of the Jihadis. But on the rare occasions that they do something right, if we lack the character to support the Pelosis and Boxers, while celebrating GOP vermin who oppose it on the grounds that it'll upset Turkey, we don't deserve any support from those on the Left who agree with us."

Oh well said.

From infidel Pride:" My solution - recall all US diplomatic personnel from Turkey, and expel all Turkish personnel in the US, and end diplomatic relations."

Oh well said again that man.

But instead of this firm behaviour, all we get is weak-as-piss statements along the lines of

"cringe cringe, we can't upset precious dear Turkey cringe cringe"

or

" cringe cringe, let's wait until the time is just perfect before we upset a muslim nation, especially one that is in denial over it's genocide of an Infidel group, cringe cringe"

Turkey throws a massive tantrum, a hissy fit to shame the most spoilt of children - because we won't play ball with it with regard to it's complete re writing of history- and the reaction of so many in politics, some posters at JW, etc is to tremble to their whining, granstanding and petulance.

A shameful episode indeed. It shows how deep the self loathing is in the West -"oh no, a muslim nation is angry that we've brought up their slaughter of well over a million infidels cringe cringe and now they're in tantrum mode, oh no"- and the lengths many will go to let the muslims get away with the complete re writing of history.

It's the hottest game in the West and from more than a few posters on JW too.

Appease the muslims. Appease, appease, appease.

StillBreathing,

I saw that one too...and I actually disagree with it. I still believe it was a genocide-actually I know it was (but that's another issue)...

But my backlash on JW wasn't about it (the genocide)...it was about a militantly ideological hyperpartisan exploiting an issue, maliciously timed, with clear and unmistakably malicious motive, other than for reason of genocide acknowledgement, which is what pelosi's game was all about
(It was also brought up by Preseident Reagan in 1981 already, which seems to be denied "mysteriously", voila!
http://www.anca.org/genocide/reagan.php
so bringing it up now was beyond puzzling, at first, save that of only one possible reason and it certainly wasn't about acknowledgement resolutions, but to forcibly alter foreign policy WAY above ones pay grade, rank, and frankly, their role, in violation of Article II (same Constitution her peers accuse their adversaries over far less).

Timing and motive was the crux of the matter, and plenty of folks wised up to said ulterior motive, from both parties, too.

Unfortunate...but there it is.

"He can't prove that no soldiers would die if Turkey cut the supply routes for about 60% of everything going into Iraq.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair"

....have you ever been in a combat situation and suddenly you run out of ammunition and there is no resupply in sight?.....The enemy does not stop shooting .....

Last time I looked it was the U.S. military in Irag not the French. We can force supply lines if needed. I would prefer to get out Iraq but we are not in danger of running out of anything if our military and our President has any brains.

If the Turks cut of our lines then we will have to open them by force...let them chew on it.

It time we start acting like a superpower.

In other words....call their bluff.

God no wonder we get pushed around all the time. Nobody has any guts to play hardball. The Turks need to be knocked down a few pegs. Now is the TIME to do it.

It is about timing after all....then fine Turkey you have 24 hours to start removing all forces from Iraq. You have another 24 hours to open supply lines. If you do not accept this offer then we will do what is needed to open said lines by any means. If we are prevented by force then we will end all links with your nation and our alliance is over. We then will seek your removal from NATO.

Have a nice day, Uncle Sam

"by that logic the US could be "expelled" from NATO for failing to support Turkey in its conflict with Greece in Cyprus, and a non-ironic point could be made about the US's failure to support major NATO ally UK after it being attacked by Argentina in the Falklands. " - posted by Mauther

I'm sorry, but I can't believe a lot of what I've been reading on this thread. Are you saying the US has not supported Turkey in the Greece, Cyprus matter?

That may be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen. The Turks have had carte blanche in the area for decades simply because the US has allowed them too. North Cyprus is recognized by one country only Turkey, yet the US has done nothing about that illegal occupation, what support were you expecting. Another Greek genocide that we can blame on the Greeks might be it.

Come up with something better than that if you want to be taken seriously.

That Turkey insists on continuing to deny the genocide is an affront to decency and the memory of the dead. How would the world react to a German government refusing the epithet "genocide" to describe the destruction of European Jewry during World War II?

Morgaan, did you ignore this link?

http://www.crf-usa.org/bria/bria16_2.html

Fanatic, you might want to try research the Greek Turkey issue a little more, especially the US participation. The US recognized the Turkish claims, that's because the greeks have been one shade shy or Red for the past 50 years while the Turks have been on board with the US for most major decisions since WWII (with the occasional help from their military). However, the US never gave any real military support and in fact cut aid to Turkey from 1967 to 1974 over the conflict. Additionally, since 1980 the US has tied aid so that it supported both sides and maintained a balance of power. So by your logic the US not bombing the Turks is supporting the Turks. How positively benevolent of you. You clearly have a clear and complex view on international politics.

So the Turks do something that the US doesn't like, and the US pressure is legitimate. The US does something the Turks don't like, and Turkey's pressure is illegitame? Please do everyone a favor: actually research a subject you clearly know nothing about before opening your mouth. Also please look up the words "ally" and "lackey". There is a difference, and Turkey (since your clearly confused on this subject) is an Ally. An ally who is clearly in the wrong here, but a long and faithful ally none the less.

Mauther, you want me to believe that the billions in aid Turkey has received since WWII is justified regardless of the fact that they have never been a true democracy. Greeks have had a near 50/50 split from their right leaning views and left leaning views. This must be enough of a reason to show Turkey more support than her other allies, even though Greece is a real democracy.

What you're telling me here is if you pay lip service and say you're on board you're good, but as you stated there's a big difference between lackey and ally and you expect Greece to be the former. Greece has voiced dissension with many things the US has done over the years, but how does that undo their military contributions, or change the fact that they are allies? I guess according to you having some socialist leanings makes one the enemy no matter if they participate in conflicts from WWII, Korea up to Afghanistan.

Turkey has had very discriminating laws against non Muslims that have been part of their policy since the beginning. It doesn't matter to you how they treat Christians and Jews there, as long as we don't offend their sensibilities.

If Turkey was on an even level with Greece as far as aid and arms go, why doesn't Greece have its own F-16 factory like Turkey was given? Why did the US keep quiet when Turkish forces were flying daily into the Kurdish region after the 1992 invasion of Iraq ended. They were reported to have committed atrocities against Kurds almost non stop after Desert Storm ended.

I guess if you are an ally that is strategically located you can turn a blind eye to anything she does. Very forward thinking of you.

As far as bombing Turkey goes, I'm not sure where you think I said that? You assume that making Turkey feel some heat for a change means bombing her, that's a very liberal interpretation of what I said.

I also wonder as stated by someone earlier, how would you feel about Germany if she denied her crimes during WWII?

Great couple of posts, greatcometof1577 " In other words....call their bluff. God no wonder we get pushed around all the time."

Spot on. How about making them squirm and sweat for a change.

It's absolutely hilarious, really it is. The wimp factor in the US, and amongst so many posters here too. Poster after poster are having a fit because Turkey - yes, Turkey, that economic powerhouse- are having a childish temper tantrum. Hilarious stuff. No wonder Iraq's such a disaster.

You know why Turkey doesn't mess with, say, Putin? Easy. He wouldn't stand for that kind of prepubescent shit. Noone would stand for that kind of crap. Hell, Swaziland would tell Turkey to take a running jump.

And Turkey knows it. The US. of course - and more than a few posters here- is a different and far funnier matter.

Here's a question.

How do you get the US to back down?

Easy, throw a hissy fit.

It works everytime. Just ask Turkey.

What a joke. No wonder a few uppity Iraqi villages are making fools of everybody.

Hilarious.

ewha1

"How do you get the US to back down? Easy, throw a hissy fit."

Or if that does not work throw down some $$$ in front of some key political leaders like the Arabians do.

Then watch them dance on command...

good point comet...only sometimes they don't even have to do THAT much...
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/6/30/104915.shtml
just find ways to protect their loot...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,264334,00.html
...since hissy fits DON'T always work, like recently...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsGaNR9dVPM
...of course, that's another story entirely.

...rest assured, someone's been dancing on command alright (read that as CYA) after this latest "event", just not quite the way it was expected
(read that as a major backfire).

Unfortunate.

You must remember where pelosi comes from in her heart. Aborting babies is the most important thing in her life. By attacking Turkey at this late date she provides cover for America's own genocide that she praises in her prayers of thanks to her God.

Perhaps, but that's more babwa bocksah's turf, and another forum...
meanwhile, it's pretty funny her actions (as if) considering she has a 100 (perfect) rating by (get this) CAIR, so we know where her loyalties lay.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={CF822C12-9767-4914-A254-20BFB27329B7}
She's now beyond defensible-her exploitation of those victims a century ago are beyond despicable (but not the first time she's done this kind of BS), especially when the real gameplan of this effort bore no relation to genocide at all...the public now knows it, too...and it's game over-the sorosistas brought exceptionally grave damage to themselves, by their own hand...we just called them on it as we saw it coming a mile away.

I love Morgan Sinclars comments at the top.

She uses classic genocide denial as outlined in Smanatha Powers' work. She effectively supports the deniers of the Holocaust by doing so.

Morgan, Nancy Pelosi is not responsible for this resoluton. It is up every YEAR for 20 years.

Learn a few facts morgan before posting, you just look absurd but not brushing up on the basics!