A highly instructive incident, where obstacles to Mideast peace are concerned. "Tel Aviv peace concert cancelled," by Etgar Lefkovits for the Jerusalem Post:
A Tel Aviv concert in support of a two-state solution, based on the 1967 lines, has been cancelled, organizers said Sunday.
The move comes just days after a simultaneous concert planned in the West Bank city of Jericho was called off due to security concerns.
The two events, which were scheduled to take place on Thursday, had been planned for over a year by the US-based One Voice organization as part of an international campaign to collect a million signatures in favor of an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement based on the 1967 lines.
A spokesman for the Tel Aviv office of the organization was not immediately available for comment.
The group had previously said as late as this weekend that the Tel Aviv concert would take place even after the Jericho event had been cancelled.
"For security reasons we cannot hold the concert at this time," Nisreen Shahin, Executive Director, One Voice Palestine said on Friday.
Shahin added that Palestinian participants had been threatened, and noted that the political situation in the Palestinian territories was too unstable for such an event at this time.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas issued a statement late Thursday distancing himself from the planned event, and emphasizing that his office had no connection to the concert.
Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat and his son are members of the group's honorary board of advisors, Shahin said.
The Jericho event had previously drawn criticism by a Palestinian terror organization, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, for its attempt to normalize ties with Israel.
A Palestinian internet posting had threatened to "wipe out" the Palestinian offices of the organization, a group spokeswoman said.
Actually, I propose that Muslims and Jews go back to the 600 A.D. lines
Let's make it 500 A.D. just to be sure
Israel is the only reason why the Palestinians exist. After the state was declared the local Arabs were suddenly declared "Palestinian refugees without a home" Now there whole pathetic culture revolves around their Jew-Hatred. If Israel magically disappeared they would have nothing.
Actually it started with the great partitions of what was left of the old ottoman empire circa 1922 (if memory serves me right), and even then what turned out to be Jordan is itself a "palestinian" state (by over 70%), so there's already one anyway.
The term "palestine" was originally a european term, not arabic, and at that, refers to what used to be called the "PHILIstine" people, whose homeland STILL did not consist of the land of Israel anyway, and over 90% of the "refugees"-in-question aren't even that at all, since they were born elsewhere, thus rendering this whole thing yet another dead-horse issue that keeps being drudged up by the now-islamized-philistines who sparsely populated what's present-day Israel to begin with even before 1922.
Good. Anything Erekat is part of can't be any good.
The One Voice website contains a lot of feel good stuff, but it is hard to get any real information through this site. The nuts and bolts of their aims are rather obscure.
http://www.onemillionvoices.org/
I'm going to guess that "1967 lines" means the border before the Six Day War which means a truncated , easily divided Israel.
"Palestinians to Israel: We don't need a Hudna, We think we are winning because of the Dhimmi-Politicians in the West. You know, like Jimmy the Dhimmi. So we'll continue to rain rockets down at random and decry the killing of blood thirsty Cell Leaders as provocation. We'll continue to use our own children as human shields and scream about the slightest paper cut they get. At the same time giving them Farfur and Friends to teach them to be proper lil' mad homicide bombers. Why you ask?!? BECAUSE WE HATE. We hate you Kafur more then we love our children. We despise the struggles and triumphs of this life and dream of the here after Socialist/Communist/Fascist/Utopian/Brothel of decadence and debauchery all under the auspices of the twisted rule of a Diabolical being named "Allah". In other words... We're not done with the slaughter we started in 622 A.D. FEEL OUR HATE, SUBMIT NOW, and PAY THE JIZYA. (This way I don’t have to get a real job and be a productive member of society. By “Allah” can you imagine the humiliation of my honor by working for my food.)"
Lonewolf & Crusader,
In 500 AD and 600 AD Palestine and the whole of the Levant including Judea, Samaria and the Galil were part of the Christian Byzantine Empire.
As Pelayo has already indicated, the 1967 lines are no longer tenable and would be practically suicidal for Israel to accept. Moreover, even the most moderate of Arabs, if I'm not mistaken, haven't given up on the "right of return" for Arabs and their descendants displaced by the 1948 war. This would also be suicidal for Israel to accept. It's also a demand that has no precedent in all of history. There isn't a single example of the descendants of refugees ever being given the right to return to the land of their forebears. Again, more is required of Israel than any other nation. This is hypocritical and unethical. Seems that Israel's greatest error was not expelling all Arabs from Gaza and the West Bank and annexing said territory to Israel proper. What would have been the downside? Israel would be more secure and could not possibly be more hated by those who want no Jewish state in what was once a part of the dar-al-harb.
A two-state solution is unworkable. It is causing the utter destruction of the Palestinian Christian community and threatens the continuing existence of Israel itself. The only just programme would be a three-state solution: Israel for the Jews, with a strong Christian minority; a Christian Palestinian state including Bethlehem, Ramallah and Nazareth, with a strong Jewish presence; and Jordan for the Muslims. Israel and Christian Palestine would be in confederation with Jerusalem as its capital.
Incidently, I was at a meeting of Palestinian Christians last week (all of them in the US) where this was discussed. Everyone at this meeting were Melkite and Orthodox with the majority being immigrants from Nazareth, Jerusalem and Ramallah. The one thing that was univerally agreed on at this meeting was that it is essential for every Palestinian Christian who has Israeli citizenship to be in Israel for the next election so they can help get Benjamin Netanyahu elected Prime Minister.
While many of these Palestinian Christians remain somewhat enamored with Avigdor Liberman, they are now convinced that "far many Jews are way too liberal" for Liberman to be elected. They believe that Netanyahu is their best hope of survival and that Christians should deliver him as many votes as possible. Of course, if the corrupt archdhimmi Olmert manages to serve out his term, it may be too late for Christians and Jews alike.
They should have Sean Kingston sing "Beautiful Girls":
You're way too beoootiful girl,
But I'm in Hamas,
That's why it'll never work.
It makes me suicidal, suicidal...
All dem damn beautiful girls,
Dey all in the Taleban,
So I'm gonna blow myself up, blow myself up...
How about the 1967 B.C. lines, to be safe?
Lonewolf, Crusader, and Provoslavni
If we go back far enough to about 70 AD it was called Judea. We can blame the Romans for this Palestine nonsense. The Jews were very uncooperative toward the Romans, and after several revolts, the Empire tried to erase the Jewish connection to the area.
The Romans are also the reason Jews wound up in Europe, where apparently Ahmadinijad and Billy Carter's less intelligent brother think they came from in the first place.
Provoslavni
I thought that Lonewolf and Crusader were suggesting that Jews get back everything, including Medina, and that the Muslim boundaries don't go even beyond Mecca.
Too bad the original Arab pagans can't be resurrected.
I need to add something - The Romans renamed Judea Palestina, that's why they can be blamed.
Palestinians threatened by Palestinians?
Can you feel the love?
Ok, so it's like the 600 boundaries for sure! End the occupation! Free the captive nations! Abolish human zombification and other sordid practices. But should mohametans even have permission to enter mecca? Mohametans go berserk for mecca any way and should probably be kept away for their own health and safety.
Just doing some thinking...
nabi ZK
...learn to think like a nabi in only 10 easy lessons...
Israel is the only reason why the Palestinians exist. After the state was declared the local Arabs were suddenly declared "Palestinian refugees without a home" Now there whole pathetic culture revolves around their Jew-Hatred. If Israel magically disappeared they would have nothing.
Don't forget that since "Palestinians" have never bothered to create an economy. They also depend on Israel for water, electricity and fuel.If Israel shuts off water, electricity and fuel how long will Palestine exist?Who thinks their Arab and Muslim brothers will come to the rescue?
Roxane,
Actually the Christian Palestinians built very vibrant economies in Bethlehem, Ramallah, and Nazareth but it has been destroyed by the Muslim squatters who have stolen the Palestinian identity.... but then again, most Palestinian Christians are actually of Jewish, not Arab, ancestry. They are descended from those Judeans and Gallileans who were the very first followers of Christ.
I mean, like, we could keep 'em away from mecca for a few generations and then test with one or two mohametans to see if they still go berserk for mecca, as is currently the case. Anyhow, in this way it should eventually be possible to build a pluralistic type society there. (in mecca)
...just doin' some tinkin'...
nabi ZK
...you 2 can learn to think like a nabi...(easier if you have a big ugly mole on your back tho')...
Provoslavni:
"'Palestinians' with Israeli citizenship" is an oxymoron. "Palestinian" means SPECIFCALLY non-citizen Arabs. Note the following quote:
"Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel ..."
-- Zuheir Muhsin, late Military Department head of the PLO and member of its Executive Council, Dutch daily Trouw, March 1977
"Palestinians" is a purely political designation NOT an ethnic one. "Palestinians" are Arabs who reject citizenship. Therefore your claim to be a "Palestinian" with Israeli citizenship-- Christian or otherwise-- makes you one of two things: 1. a traitor, i.e., an Israeli who has gone over to the avowed enemies of our country during a time of war albeit an undeclared war officially, or 2. simply a liar pushing enemy propaganda. So which is it?
I don't have time to read the whole long article, so can someone clue me in: was it the Jews who were threatening to violently attack the peace concert? And what is the UN going to do to punish them?
Don't forget that since "Palestinians" have never bothered to create an economy. They also depend on Israel for water, electricity and fuel.If Israel shuts off water, electricity and fuel how long will Palestine exist?Who thinks their Arab and Muslim brothers will come to the rescue?
Exactly, but I was also referring to a deeper psychological aspect. There is no Nation of Palestine, there never has been so they have no national character. Whatever can be defined as "Palestinian character" is Jew hatred. Every resource that isn't looted for personal profit goes to destroying Israel, every citizen is expected to fight Israel, their education system revolves around teaching their children to hate Israel, they throw their lives and children away for the chance to blow up some Israeli's, local groups vie for power amongst the citizenry by trying to outdo each other in public with their Israel-hatred, there primary entertainment consists entirely of depictions fighting Israel, dying (gloriously of course)against Israel, defeating Israel and trumped up Israeli atrocities to justify this. A one track culture.
So what if Israel no longer existed? They would no longer exist either. Palestinians whole existence can be defined, almost literally, as "against Israel". They have no traditions to build upon, other than hatred. But if the source of there hatred were suddenly gone, they would have no reason to exist. There "Arab/Muslim brothers" would no doubt cease the land and incorporate it into their respective nations. And they would be nothing but local Arabs again, not "Palestinians" since their usefulness as a propaganda tool has come to an end.
Moshe C,
I've seen the Israeli passports of numerous Christians from Haifa and Nazareth. The passports clearly state that the Christian Israeli carrier is "Palestinian". This is the designation by the Israeli government, which to the continuing irritation of Christian Israelis forces them to feel that they are trapped between Muslims and Jews who both hate them.
With the Muslim demographic threat to to both Jews and Christians, it is essential that Jews and Christians become allies. The proposal for Israel to expel the Muslims to Jordan, annex Hebron and Jericho outright, and establish an autonomous Christian Palestinian state in Bethlehem, Ramallah and the Nazareth triangle, in confederation with Israel, is the only just solution for both Christians and Jews. This is not my idea but is the desire of many Christian Palestinians on both sides of the green line.
sorry "cease" should be "seize"
Provoslavni:
"Palestinian" as used by my gov't [I'm Israeli] specifically means a non-citizen resident alien. Since they refuse to form their own gov't, we provide them passports-- foolishly in my own opinion-- but this does not make them citizens. "Palestinian" has a VERY specific meaning in this country.
Bummer. Nothing like a disagreement over the Pyrotechnics of the Stage Act to ruin a good time.
Does this mean that Music really doesn't tame the wild Beast? Or the Beast doesn't want to be tamed?
It is just so hard to tell with these People.
Boo hoo.
There wont de a demonstration !
Boo Hoo.
Was it conceived and organized in Hollywood ?
Was Oliver Stone and the rest of the stupids supporting it ?
Moshe, I understand that but Christians from Nazareth, Haifa etc. do not have any other choice. Regardless of ancestry, if they are not Jewish by religion, the Israeli government puts "Palestinian" on their passports.
This idiotic policy goes back to 1948 when the Haganah/Labor secularists established the current policy. Leaders in the Irgun (and later Herut) did understand that Christians should not be lumped in with the Muslims as if they were just "Arabs" but that Christians should have a unique status in Israel similar to the Samaritans or Druze. Unfortunately they weren't power then and much later Menachem Begin's heroic attempts to bring justice to the Christians failed. However, it did earn Likud the respect and support of the silent majority in the Christian community.
Today, it is worse than foolish for Israel to fail to distinquish Christians from Muslims. For its own security and moral standing, Israel must recognize that Christians are indigenous to the land and (by ancestry and morality) brothers to the Jews while the Muslims are nothing but invaders and squatters.
Provoslovani:
If Israel's Christian "Arab" citizens are lumped in with the Muslim "Arab" citizens by way of citizenship status under Israeli law, I would say it has as much if not more to do with the rejectionist sentiments of their political leaders who threw their lot in with the Arab nationalists, and, by and large, continue to do so, than a failure on the part of the nascent Israeli government of days gone by and present to make a distinction between Muslim and Christian "non-Jews".
I probably don't have to point out to you that the Christians were/are by and large, not ethnically "Arab", but the descendants of Jews who converted to Christianity, and spoke their own distinct dialect up until relatively recently.
I need to add something - The Romans renamed Judea Palestina, that's why they can be blamed.
Posted by: Pelayo at October 14, 2007 5:02 PM
Pelayo:
According to the Atlas of Jewish Civilization by Josephine Bacon, edited by Sir Martin Gilbert, the Romans renamed Judea "Syria-Palestina" in 130 A.D. following several Jewish revolts, particularly the one led by Bar Kochba. The Romans, during their occupation, murdered about 25% of the Jews and carried another 10% back to Italy as slaves.
Every time I hear some @sshole, like lefty idiot professor of "religion" and "Christian" Cornell West who was recently interviewed on CBC Radio, talking about Jesus as having been a Palestinian I want to puke. Anyone who thinks that Pontious Pilate, whose ruthlessness and cruelty as a governor was such that he was recalled to Rome from his last post, had Christ crusified at the behest of the Jews is a gormless idiot. Pinning the blame on the Jews was in the interest of the early Christians as there was no capital to be made blaming it on the Romans.
Waterdragon, I don't know why I left Syria off the new name for Judea.
Also it may have served the early Christians to blame Jews for Jesus' death, but it has resonated throughout Christianity. That belief is responsible for persecution of Jews that still goes on to the present day.
If the early christian's blame the Jews in order to curry favor from Rome, and the Jews did not agitate for Jesus' crucifixion, what does that say about a devinely inspired text? Blaming the Jews when it is a false accusation sounds like something an American political consultant would do.
To say that the 'palestineans' are nothing without jew hatred is to miss the whole point of the threat, the challenge, and the true path to victory.
They are muslims or related dhimmis.
Even if Israel were gone or not in issue, they would still be koranic idiots filled with hatred and resentment towards the infidel.
Unless and until one attacks islam and displays its evil roots, there will be little success except the drip drip drip of defeat.
The royalty pukes in the House of Saud, as well as the Bin Laden clan, as well as the Mafouss banker - they are all potential and real enemies because they are believers of islam.
Even our 'ally' Turkey carries this seed of real danger.
islam is the enemy.
When you attack islam you deal with the virus.
Pelayo,
You are correct. Blaming all Jews for the death of Christ is not only against the teachings of the Church (Catholic and Orthodox) but flies in the face of the clear account given in all four Gospels. The small party of Jewish "leaders" in the Sanhedrin who conspired to kill Jesus were toadies to the Roman occupiers. The "High Priests" Annas and Caiaphas were appointed by the Roman authorities because they were seen as sufficiently pliable. The vast majority of observant Jews despised them as sellouts. The Gospel account of their declaration "we have no king but Ceaser" shows that they had long separated themselves from the interests of the Jewish people.
Provoslavni, That isn't what I meant. Waterdragon dropped a big hint that the Jews did, in fact, not conspire to force Pilate to execute Jesus.
Waterdragon said "Anyone who thinks that Pontious Pilate,. . . had Christ crusified at the behest of the Jews is a gormless idiot. Pinning the blame on the Jews was in the interest of the early Christians as there was no capital to be made blaming it on the Romans."
I merely added an expanded comment. Waterdragon indicated that responsibility was pinned on the Jews. The Gospels, Acts, and one or two more books insist that the Jews were the instigators of the crucifixion. If the Jews were not the prime movers in Jesus death as Waterdragon suggests, then the New Testament has a political aim and it lessens the reliability and truthfulness. The insistance that the Jews killed Jesus is in the Books in several places. The Bible does not differentiate between the leadership and the ordinary Jew.
Pelayo,
I disagree. The Gospels clearly show that the Sanhedrin was not united behind Caiaphas but that prominent Jewish leaders such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Aremithea tacitly supported the Jesus movement. In Acts, on Pentecost, some of the very same people that shouted "crucify him" became Christ's followers. There is no doubt that a vein of anti-Jewish polemics has been present in the Church over the centuries but a reading of the Church Fathers and the epistles shows that to be misguided if not outright heretical.
Saint Paul deals with this issue directly when he writes, "So I ask, "Has God rejected his people Israel?" That's unthinkable! Consider this. I'm an Israelite myself" (Roman 11.1) and over and over proudly asserts his Jewishness.
So, we should correctly blame Caiaphas and let the rest of the Jews off the hook; however, the Bible does not explicitly do that. It is rather general in its placing blame. In all those passages where Paul and others have a chance to clarify the issue; they don't, and choose to blame the Jews in a generalized fashion and thus unknowingly begin 2000 years of anti-Semitism.
We have Caiaphas as the chief instigator and Necodemus and Joseph of Arimathea as supporters, all the rest went along just to get along, so to speak. Of all the Jewish leaders who could have or should have done more, there are two, and they didn't do much. Tacitly lending support, means they kept their mouths shut. John wrote that Joseph feared the Jews.
I'm still wondering if there was a politial motive for the generalized blame.
Pelayo, of course we shouldn't let anyone off the hook. From a historical perspective, the Jesus movement was seen as a political threat to the power of Caiaphas and his cohorts. However it was, at that time, still a very Jewish movement. As for who to blame for the death of Christ, that one is easy to answer. I am! As is every human person with the nature of Adam. All of Orthodox and Catholic theology agrees on this.