"The Saudi authorities cite a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad that only Islam can be practised in the Arabian Peninsula...." And that's why the plight of Christians in Saudi Arabia will not change.
Here, by the way, is that tradition.
"Historic Saudi visit to Vatican," from the BBC (thanks to all who sent this in):
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has met Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican - the first audience by the head of the Roman Catholic Church with a Saudi monarch.The Vatican described the private meeting as "warm" and said the two men discussed the presence and hard work of Christians in Saudi Arabia.
An estimated 1.5m Christians live in Saudi Arabia but are not allowed to worship publicly.
The Vatican said Abdullah requested the audience as part of a European tour.
The two sides have no diplomatic ties, although when Abdullah was crown prince he met the late Pope John Paul II.
Correspondents say the visit comes as relations between the Vatican and the Muslim world are improving, more than a year after the crisis caused by a papal speech appearing to associate Islam with violence....
Oh horror! He appeared to associate Islam with violence! Muslims do that every day, of course, and...where are the protests?
The Vatican said the talks allowed a wide discussion on the need for religious and cultural dialogue among Christians, Muslims and Jews "for the promotion of peace, justice and spiritual and moral values, especially in support of the family."Both sides also emphasised the need for a "just solution" to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Vatican said.
About a million Catholics, many of them migrant workers from the Philippines, live in the conservative desert kingdom, which is the home of Islam's holiest shrines.
They are allowed to worship in private, mostly in people's homes, but worship in public places and outward signs of faith, such as crucifixes, are forbidden.
Christians complain that rules are not clear and hardline Muslim authorities sometimes crack down on legitimate congregations.
"The most important thing is to get the possibility to gather in freedom and security for our worship, our masses and our activities," said Bishop Paul Hinder, responsible for Catholics in Arabia, in an interview with Reuters news agency.
The Saudi authorities cite a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad that only Islam can be practised in the Arabian Peninsula....
"The Vatican said the talks allowed a wide discussion on the need for religious and cultural dialogue among Christians, Muslims and Jews 'for the promotion of peace, justice and spiritual and moral values, especially in support of the family.'" --from above
Once more, fine sounding words, but words requiring shared definitions. For instance, what does "peace" mean within the framework of the cultural dialogue that is called for? And "justice?" Likewise, what is the shared understanding of the phrase "spiritual and moral values?" And what is the common definition of "family" in this would-be meeting of minds, long overdue by some 1300 years?
Islam and it's double standards.
A church being built in Arabia?
...right. I have a greater chance of becoming a conservative and feeling something other than revulsion at the very thought of Ann Coulter.
For some reason I always assumed the Philipinos who went to Saudi Arabia to work were Muslims.Bangladesh at least tried to enforce a ban on its women going to Saudi to work because of the inevitability of their being sexually harassed. Personally I think the Philipines government and Catholic Church ought also to give taking such action their urgent consideration.
'only islam can be practised on the Arabian....'
That is a violation of the U.N. charter on freedom of religion.
Ok, so the U.N. and U.S. State Department will do nothing. Sorry, I was wrong, the State Department will send them more money.
They should have NO voice regarding islam on American soil, and should not be allowed to send Imans to American soil if they do not allow Christians to be sent to their soil.
And...
what is with the 1 million Phillipine migrant workers. They don't have enough unemployed Palestinians to employ north of their border or they just don't want to see the Palestinians plight improve. Keep the Palestinians in poverty.
Why doesn't the U.S. State Department require the Saudi's to employ Palestinians? Everyone is all 'boo-hoo' over the Palestinians...so flipping employ them.
"Keep the Palestinians in poverty"....Good point alaskan1000. As you know, the Palestinians are nothing more than pawns in the vendetta against Israel. Arab countries, et all, have tons of resources to put towards helping the "poor" Palestinians. It's all just a sick game....
> The Saudi authorities cite a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad that only Islam can be practised in the Arabian Peninsula..perhaps the west should return the favor until you get yout heads out of your pet pedafiles behind and realize the Catholic Church and the Church of England and several other churches throughout Europe have the same tradition and considering there are more Muslims are in Europe and England than their Christian in the Arabian Peninsula perhaps you need to get your head out of your behind and realize if and that people in the West realized how badly you treat Christians that same can be done with Muslims in the West I for one and sick and tired of this nonsense and having Muslims that have immigrated to the West for their beliefs on other people i.e. the Somali taxi drivers refusing to take blind people because they have a service dog it is long past time that they grew up and realize that the historical accident of oil under the kingdom you would be just another two bit Third World country
"What is the real purpose of the Saudi monarch's visit in Europe?"
-- from a posting above
Damage control. They're on a campaign. No real changes, no real concessions, no nothing at all. But damage control, to protect the image of Islam and of course the image of Saudi Arabia and of that nice normal family, the Al-Saud. They're sinister, malevolent, dangerous. But they're no fools.
There's much that I don't like about Ratzinger, but at the very least he's adopting a firm stance in the face of jihad. Let's hope his backbone remains stronger than his (weak) commitment to eradicating sex abuse among the clergy.
Must have been a sight for Al-Saud to see all those crosses, crucifexes, paintings of Jesus and the Virgin Mary and assorted saints. All that art work! Wonder if Al-Saud kissed the Pope's ring or bowed before him or prayed to Jesus?
The jeweled sword. Got any idea what the symbolism is here?
Anyone?
Most of the people in Saudi prisons are Filipinos, there on trumped up, bogus charges. The real reasons many are imprisioned are 1. practicing Christianity (and getting caught), and 2. complaining about being sexually or physically abused or not being paid. Saudis are great about non-payment, as non-Muslims have no rights in the country. The Philippines is such a weak country that they have no diplomatic standing vis-a-vis the Saudis. Most Filipinos there are Christian as it is illegal for the POEA to ask about religion prior to a Filipino being deployed overseas.
Hmm....
How can one detest Ann Coulter and dislike much of what the Pope does without being a islamofascist or a useless liberal?
Try reading their books, Roob. Then tell us with what you disagree.
If the Pope isn't getting the job done in Saudi, you can send in the Dalai Lama or Pat Robertson.
To wallyUK -
As regards the Philippines - Filipino Christians are fantastic people (one of my sisters-in-law is a devout Filipina Catholic - she has just gained her Australian citizenship - read Proverbs 31, the 'woman of valour', and you have a perfect portrait of her).[I just wish that my country's leaders would drop our dangerous and foolish alliances with Indonesia and Malaysia and ally us with the Philippines, instead].
Both Catholic and Protestant Filipino churches are very lively and send out LOTS of missionaries to everywhere. Ordinary Filipino Christians have copped a lot of persecution in Hatred's Kingdom, and throughout the Gulf states, because of their indomitable faith and refusal to shut up.
Not that Filipino Muslim workers are treated, by Muslim Arabs, any better than the Christians! On Ali Sina's website I read the horrifying story of a Filipina MUSLIM 'Moro' [Moor] girl who had actually left Islam - apostasised - because of the vicious cruelty that she suffered when she worked as a maid/slave in Saudi Arabia (she was raped and tortured, almost to the point of death, by her muslim cleric master - her eventual escape and return to the Philippines was nothing short of miraculous).
The Philippines (roughly 93% Christian) are having to deal with Jihad in their southern islands, especially Mindanao, where Muslims - with plenty of backing both from Islamised Indonesia and from the usual suspects such as Pakistan and KSA - are doing the usual thing. There are a lot of Muslims in the south, but overall Muslims form only FIVE PERCENT of the total Filipino population.
As for the Pope. I hope Pope Benedict will speak strongly not only about Saudi persecution of Filipino Catholics in KSA, but about Muslim violence against Nigerian Catholics, Sudanese Catholics, and Timorese, Moluccan and Papuan Melanesian Catholics.
Everybody here who is a Christian - pray for Benedict; pray that the Holy One will give him what the church calls 'words of knowledge', and that he will be guarded against confusion and delusion, guarded against both physical and - much more importantly - spiritual attack.
May the Bishop of Rome speak up fearlessly in the name of all Christians everywhere; may he challenge all Muslim tyrants, on behalf of ALL non-Muslims (not just Christians) suffering torment and oppression within the Ummah.
PS I've said this before: all serious Christians should have the list of addressees of the 'Letter from the Muslims to the Christians', tucked into their prayer book. It lists most of the major Christian leaders of all branches of the Church. Pray for the leaders of the flock! Pray that the curses which Islam is directing toward them - and the threats, the bribes, and the lies - may come to nothing.
Robert, your BBC article omitted some of the most fascinating of Bishop Hinder's comments:
What I am hoping is that there can be more security and freedom for our people in a very low profile manner," Hinder, a Swiss national who is the bishop of Arabia, said in a telephone interview from his base in Abu Dhabi.
"I am not expecting to be able to build a cathedral. But at least (we need) the freedom to worship in security.".
It's sad, really. For all the recent talk of "reciprocity," here Bishop Hinder shows that reciprocity is beyond the power of the Church to negotiate.
Catholics in Saudia Arabia may perhaps aspire to worship in unadorned "halls," in slightly larger gatherings, and be permitted a slight increase in their worship decibel level before they are subject to arrest and imprisonment.
On the other hand, I expect the Saudis are more daring in their aspirations and demands -- perhaps requiring that any opposition (such as it is) to the building of huge mosques in cities like Cologne be dropped.
I don't know the present policy, but in the past, the US Embassy stopped allowing Catholic Masses and Protestant services in their compound because word had gotten back the Saudis and they did not want to "offend" their masters...er..hosts.
Can one imagine Ibrahim Hooper giving a media interview stating that CAIR is "hoping...that there can be more security and freedom for our people in a very low profile manner"?
No, I suspect one cannot. Whatever faults Islam may have, surely it inspires its adherents to be a little more spineful than that.
This pope is single handedly sticking up for christians all over the world. the british royal family and the socialists labour said nothing to the saiudi king over human rights and religious freedom.
now that pope WAS a real "neo-nazi"!!!
Here's another anti-Dhimmi Christian piece. Bono of U2 says that Islamic Aggression a problem.
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/richard-newcomb/2007/11/06/bono-says-islamic-aggression-threat-media-silent
james martel
but bono also said this of jihadist islam
"I want to be very, very clear, however: I understand and agree with the analysis of the problem. There is an imminent threat. It manifested itself on 9/11. It's real and grave. It is as serious a threat as Stalinism and National Socialism were. Let's not pretend it isn't."
martel
thats actually a cool piece of news, thanks for finding this! bono could influence many hundreds of thousands of young people.
"but bono",whoops, sorry for the "but".
James Martel,
Thanks for the link. I have always been a big U2 fan. When I recollect on the songs from "all that you can't leave behind" and then seeing the events of 9/11 unfold, I actually entertained the concept of his potential divinity.
Ireland is flourishing currently, btw.
As far as the article--
"Pope meets Saudi King to discuss Christian worship in Kingdom"
--was so obviously a discussion that fell on willfully deaf ears.
Saudi Arabia is taking a bit of a hit lately in the global media. Good. Methinks it is the entire impetus behind their current world tour.
Hopefully their come-uppance will follow in short order, at least soon after that treasonous, idiotic bastard Bush is shown the door.
Choose your candidates wisely in 2008.
"a useless liberal"
Liberal? Guilty as charged. Useless? Hardly. I'm quite useful, actually.
"Try reading their books, Roob. Then tell us with what you disagree."
I have read Coulter's books--or tried to (I had to put them down because, well, they were making me sick). Since Coulter is a friend of Mr. Spencer, I'll refrain from speaking too honestly, except to say that I disagree with her in just about every way it's humanly possible to disagree with someone.
In some conservatives' eyes, that would make me some sort of Islamofascist, I suppose (though admiration of Coulter is actually surprisingly scant even among the right). Well, I can live with that.
"About a million Catholics, many of them migrant workers from the Philippines, live in the conservative desert kingdom, which is the home of Islam's holiest shrines.
They are allowed to worship in private, mostly in people's homes, but worship in public places and outward signs of faith, such as crucifixes, are forbidden.""
"RUMSFELD ON MUSLIMS
US State Department official Karen Hodges was given the impossible task of polishing the US image in the Muslim World. She has now resigned from what we all know to be an impossible job.
A day later, the White House is now apologizing for a comment that Donald Rumsfeld made three years ago, so that we don’t offend the Muslims. Rumsfeld said that oil wealth has made Muslims “against physical labor.” Rumsfeld says that oil wealth detaches Muslims "from the reality of the work, effort and investment that leads to wealth for the rest of the world.”
Thus far … where did he really get it wrong?
Then he really gets to the heart of the argument, "Too often Muslims are against physical labor, so they bring in Koreans and Pakistanis while their young people remain unemployed … An unemployed population is easy to recruit to radicalism." Do you hear that mentality, folks? Many Muslim countries want their people to remain poor because it is easier to indoctrinate them, to recruit them.
Now you have another explanation for our government schools. Just add the words “and ignorant” after “poor” and you’ll see the big picture.
Wonder if Al-Saud kissed the Pope's ring or bowed before him or prayed to Jesus?
Posted by: 3812Michelle
News coverage of the meeting showed the pope reaching out and grasping Abdullah's hands in his. My first reaction was disbelief that Abdullah let a filthy kuffar touch him.
The "king" should have be arrested under European laws as a war criminal for funding the Islamic takeover of the world. Someone should have sought a Euro indictment like the trendy ones European courts routinely give against Western leaders such as Kissinger or Rumsfeld. Did anyone notice the subtlety of the gift given by the war criminal to the pope? He gave the pope a sword. AP reports:
"At the end of the meeting, Abdullah presented Benedict with a traditional Middle Eastern gift — a golden sword studded with jewels — as well as a gold and silver statue of a palm tree and man riding a camel. The pope admired the statue but merely touched the sword."
I love the way the media being embarrassed by the sword calls the gift a "traditional Middle Eastern gift," but separate from the dim wit comment of the media of how nice it is that the Moslem brought the Pope a present in Orwellian language we have come to expect from the press (i.e. the sword being described as a traditional middle easter present), what is the significance of this leading Moslem world conspiratorial thug giving an infidel Christian leader a sword? Is this a psychological attack on Christendom that says you Christians behave or we will cut off your head infidel scum? What is the take of readers of Jihadwatch and the behavior of the king of the religion of peace bringing a sword to the Pope?
Imagine the outcry in the West if any Christian leader said something like
"We can't allow Muslims here to build mosques because a command laid out by the Lord Jesus".
Muslim hypocrisy.
Where are the moral equivalence nuts now? Aren't all religious essencially the same?
Where are those who "demand" freedom but do absolutly nothing for it?
This was posted on Biased BBC, on the Popes audience, I think it says everything you need to know about the Bias of the BBC.
Compare And Contrast Part 6287
Prime Minister Tony Blair has had a private audience with Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican.
President George W Bush has discussed the sex scandal which has rocked the Catholic Church in the United States during a private audience with
Pope John Paul II on Tuesday.
Russian President Vladimir Putin has voiced hope for improved understanding between the Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches, following an audience with Pope John Paul II.
Wait for it ...
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has met Pope Benedict XVI at the Vatican - the first audience by the head of the Roman Catholic Church with a Saudi monarch.
I may be wrong, but I thought it was King Abdullah who had an audience with the Pope, not the other way round. Radio Four's Six O'Clock News (BBC Radio Player 'til tomorrow, 27 minutes in) told us the same thing.
"King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has met the Pope at theVatican, the frst time a head of the Roman Catholic Church has had an audience with a Saudi monarch".
http://biased-bbc.blogspot.com/
Memo to the governments of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and the U.K.: let each of your states take in 200 to 300 thousand of the Christians in Saudi Arabia [this article refers to one million Catholics, the related article in JW mentions 1.5 million Christians], and in return send 200 to 300 thousand of its moslems to S.A. You would all be reducing the number of trouble-makers in your countries, and S.A. would be rid of the infidels defiling the land of the "holy cities".
"The Saudi authorities cite a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad that only Islam can be practised in the Arabian Peninsula...."
We need a tradition where Islam is not allowed to be practiced in the West.
Hugh wrote:
As non-fools, surely they realize that this visit will accomplish nothing by way of changing the hearts and minds of informed, and therefore outraged, infidels, and furthermore, this visit will definitely be construed by faithful Muslims throughout the umma as further proof that the al-Saud family are hypocrites, and that OBL's struggle against them is justified, although arguably upon his return the Saudi might harness the Muslim propaganda machine (newspapers, TV stations) to depict the Saudi as a jihadist, and spin the visit as sophisticated taqiya, preparing the ground for an eventual conquest of Europe.
Additionally, Putin, drunk with power and newly-acquired petrol wealth, is flexing his muscles in defiance of the West, and therefore the Saudis should not be concerned about Russia taking over their share of the oil market.
So, again, I can't see an objective reason for the Guardian of the Ka'aba to venture out of dar al islam and show "good will" to the infidel, unless he was overcome with fear of Iran and its present/future allies, or fear of something else (I'd like to know what that something else is). The decision to visit Europe seems to be emotional and urgent, more than a calculated, political move by a non-fool.
If Europe needs labor, why not bring in people we know will do all they can to live by the Western traditions, like Catholics from South Asia, or from South America?
oh, I forgot! The liberals who run Europe know that, sooner or later, those Cathlics will be assimilated and will stand with their cherished Western values.
*slaps forehead*