Ali Eteraz at Pajamas Media suggests that if the U.S. would drop Musharraf and support an independent panel investigating the killing of Benazir Bhutto, the Pakistanis would wake up to the evils of political Islam and vote pro-American:
An independent panel will likely conclude that it was the terrorists that killed Ms. Bhutto and not any elements associated with Musharraf himself. By doing so, Musharraf will be able to clear the cloud of suspicion hanging over his head, and might, in the process, be able to use the international community to identify how much the pro-Taliban elements have infiltrated Pakistan’s government. By severing itself from Musharraf and calling for an objective international panel, the US might also be able to see the extent of Musharraf’s complicity with the Islamists, if any.If the U.S. can create the conditions for such a public demonstration of the history and extent of jihadist killing and infiltration, it would arm the people of Pakistan with unerring proof about who is their real enemy. It would be a boost to their sense of survival. It would demonstrate that the US is looking out for them. They would be able to take these feelings to the polls.
Historically, Pakistanis have never voted for religious fanatics. Today the U.S. must use an international panel to remind them that the reason they have never voted Islamist is because Islamists do not care for Pakistani lives. This kind of gesture will give resolve to the people of Pakistan. When facing the kind of terrorism Pakistanis do every day, resolve is the most important thing.
So that's all it will take: if the U.S. abandons Musharraf and sponsors an independent investigation into Bhutto's death, the Pakistani jihad will melt away. The 46% who registered approval for bin Laden as recently as September will vanish, and the the 9% who said they had a favorable view of George W. Bush will skyrocket. The 74% who said they opposed "U.S. military action against al Qaeda and the Taliban inside Pakistan" will begin, presumably, to change their minds.
I wish it were that simple. Unfortunately, Andrew McCarthy was far closer to the mark when he wrote yesterday:
The real Pakistan is a breeding ground of Islamic holy war where, for about half the population, the only thing more intolerable than Western democracy is the prospect of a faux democracy led by a woman — indeed, a product of feudal Pakistani privilege and secular Western breeding whose father, President Zulfiquar Ali Bhutto, had been branded as an enemy of Islam by influential Muslim clerics in the early 1970s.The real Pakistan is a place where the intelligence services are salted with Islamic fundamentalists: jihadist sympathizers who, during the 1980s, steered hundreds of millions in U.S. aid for the anti-Soviet mujahideen to the most anti-Western Afghan fighters — warlords like Gilbuddin Hekmatyar whose Arab allies included bin Laden and Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the stalwarts of today’s global jihad against America.
The real Pakistan is a place where the military, ineffective and half-hearted though it is in combating Islamic terror, is the thin line between today’s boiling pot and what tomorrow is more likely to be a jihadist nuclear power than a Western-style democracy.
Search the archives here and you will find abundant confirmation of all these points. And the most obvious reason why the Pakistani jihad will not evanesce if Musharraf goes away is that it existed before him, and has been gaining in strength and influence ever since the founding of Pakistan -- and particularly around the time Benazir Bhutto's father was murdered by the Zia al-Haq regime, which introduced numerous Sharia provisions into Pakistani law.
We are still waiting for that independent investigation of Rafik Hariri's assassination in Syrian-occupied Lebanon.
Here is Ali Eteraz' simple "organic" solution to violent and misogynistic interpretations of Islamic Law:
In order to pull rape cases out of the Shariah courts, reformers created new secular crimes to replace what used to be Shariah crimes. They did so even though the new secular crimes did not qualitatively differ from old religious crimes...If, and when, a law against "lewdness" is abolished, abolition wouldn't be considered an assault on religion as it was never a religious term to begin with.
-Ali Eteraz, 7/26/07
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/ali_eteraz/2007/07/islams_organic_liberalism.html
Just delude people into sef-deception by changing terminology. How Orwellian...and quaint.
The article above reminds me of an old say;
" There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn lies and Statistics"
One wonders how many of these insane Muslim Panglosses have the ears of important Western decision makers. Promotion of this type of crackpot Islam-cleansing boondoggles as this ludicrous "audit" need to stop. For decades these Islamic "refugees" have sold the West down the river with all their misdirection and disinformation. Their miserable analysis and their crazy ideas represent a complete betrayal of the trust we've placed in them. They should be ignored. These unreliable conduits of Islamic disinformation should retreat and be thank their stars they're not hauled up for treason charges and accusations of Islamic espionage, for it's truly beginning to look like that's what they've been up to...
No one needs an independent panel to investigate the killing of Benazir Bhutto to determine if Musharraf or Al Qaeda killed her. Common sense can answere that.
How much money would someone accept from Musharraf to blow himself up in trying to assassinate Bhutto? Doesn't sound like a very good way to make a buck, especially considering that if you're dead, you can't spend the money.
A suicide bomber is looking for something far more substantial than monetary compensation for killing himself, and we all know what that is, and we all know that only Al Qaeda offers that kind of compensation.
"I think the answer is apparent: in Pakistan, if you do not criticize the Islamists, you will not be targeted."
--Eteraz--
"The second, more realistic solution is for the U.S. to openly dump Musharraf and pull itself out of any semblance of involvement in Pakistan’s internal political affairs. The U.S. needs to be in a position where it has not been in a long time with Pakistan: objective."
--Eteraz--
So, the Islamists removed one of their two critics and Eteraz wants to remove the other one, effectively giving the Taleban free reign over the country which is also a nuclear power?
It sounds like a great plan and one I am sure the US will jump right on any second now.
Look deeper, folks!
The flow of free money from the US in particular and the West in general to the retarded dictatorships must stop.
The redistribution of wealth is the concept in the base of every atrocity in human history.
Why are we feeding dar al islam and supplying them with arms and cash is beyond me. Stop giving them money and they will become well groomed and very well behaving in an instant.
Oh, boy...
I forgot to say: when dar al islam spends free cash from the West in Russia buying weapons, we all look like fucking morons, don't we?
"It would demonstrate that the US is looking out for them."
I know how awful this is going to sound, but I don't care how many Pakistanis kill each other, should they opt for a civil war.
I don't care. I'm sick unto death of paying for the dubious privilege of my country's playing nanny to Pakistan.
If Islam is so "glorious", and Mohammedans are so smart, they should be able to figure it all out for themselves. When are they going to grow up?
Pakistan is about 55 years old. Time to take off the training wheels, already!
We cannot keep our own government from being infiltrated with Islamicists (see "Pentagon" article, above) so why should we think Pakistan's government won't be infiltrated 100-fold?
"Ali Eteraz at Pajamas Media suggests that if the U.S. would drop Musharraf and support an independent panel investigating the killing of Benazir Bhutto, the Pakistanis would wake up to the evils of political Islam and vote pro-American:"
...anyone who believes him...go now and stand in the corner on your head for a while....
"It would demonstrate that the US is looking out for them."
So now the same people who denounce America at every turn want to see that the US is "looking out" for them? Is this guy for real?
Musharraf or the terrorists? There might be a third option: the army.
There is no reason to believe there are no Islamists in the armed forces of Pakistan. The latest theory is that members of the Pakistani special forces, trained sharpshooters, carried out this assassination.
How can "pro-Taliban elements" have infiltrated the Pakistani government? Isn't the Taliban a Pakistani creation?
"Isn't the Taliban a Pakistani creation?"
Isn't Pakistan an "al Qaida nation"?
I notice how carefully and repeatedly our media repeats (when it repeats) the poll placing Pakistani popular support for bin Laden and al Qaida at "48%".
This perpetuates the idea, I suppose, that it's only a "tiny minority of extremists" after all. Three nation and only three ever officially recognized the barbaric Taliban in Afghanistan: UAE, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. Others I am certain would have recognized the Taliban had it not been such a seriuos red flag warning about the nature of their nation, even prior to 9/11. Nevertheless those triumphalist and arrogant strongholds of Sunni despotism, close allies to the U.S. all, "moderate Muslim nations" all, those nations felt good enough about their Frankenstein, and sufficently unworried about the implications of doing so, to publicly call honor the Islamic flea-dog diplomatically.
They are all three al Qaida nations. Taliban nations. Barbaric nations. Pious Muslim nations.
Death of Bhutto: A day of joy
* Islam Online is the official site of the insane Islamofascist nutbag Omar Bakri Mohammed
By declaring war on Islam and so-called “terrorists” she has faced the consequences.
Some are questioning if she was a Muslimah or not. Firstly, it is known that she was Ismaa’eeli, and not Muslim. But for argument’s sake, even if she was a Muslim, she ruled by kufr (non-Islamic) law and declared complete apostasy by allying with the enemies of Allah against Ahl ut-Tawheed (the people of Islam) – therefore she was a disbeliever.
Her death is a lesson for all other leaders around the world, especially the rulers of Muslim countries.
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/12/28/flanders-finances-mosques-clerics/
Ali Eteraz said
Their real enemy? You mean Allah, the one who instructed His followers to kill non-Muslims like Bhutto wherever they found them? Somehow I don't think it will go down exactly the way Mr. Eteraz thinks it will.
Ali Eteraz is like a life-long Giants fan who just can't admit to himself that Barry Bonds cheated.
Bhutto is removed. The only other reasonable and legitimate candidate Pakistan has to offer is Musharraf. And yet, Ali Eteraz wants us to separate ourselves from him?
Why would Ali Eteraz propose such an insane solution?
The 'independent panel' according to those whom the mentioned column is addressed and according to the people of whom 46% approve OB laden are two totally different entities. Finally it will be Mullahs who will decide whether the panel was independent or not. I saw a TV reporting from WIndsor ontario, where a Pakistani orgin gentleman said on a national news network that Bhutto killing is a good thing for Pakistan in long run. Can anyone conduct a poll to show how many Pakis would support the killing of Benazir? Even if 1 % (which is a ridicuolous underestimation) agree, then do you think that there would be peace. Even 0.1% of Paki population has power to disrupt every American effort, particularly when majority is against US involvement. The only foreign element they are going to listen are their Saudis masters, whom most consider as a genuinely superior race. I may sound pessimistic I do not have any hope from Pakistan. Best ways are to 1) Use Saudis as proxy to enforce the intentions, provided if Saudis can be trusted 2) Conduct a covert operation aimed at getting out all the nukes or disabling them from Pakistan in a very swift operation; it may take of pressure of indulging and meddling in Paki affair provided if China does not decide to replenish the Paki nuclear arsenals. I do not know how practical these efforts may be, but to dream of a liberal democracy in a country which was founded on the claim that Muslims can not coexist with other religious group in a secular democracy, is even more impractical.
Tragic as it is, Bhutto's death also shows how we are lodged in an asymmetric battle with true followers of religion of peace. Bhutto, however flawed she might be, was probably the only ally of forces of modernity, reason and humanity. However tall she might have been, she was eliminated in two blows from ordinary foot soldiers of Islam, and there is no way to prevent it, no appeal, no one to turn to. Contrast this with the restrain of those trying to fight jihadists, they are condemned, sued, threatened not only by jihadists but their liberal colleagues too. Even water-boarding the killer of Bhutto would have caused universal uproar.
Basically, make war on Islam and die. Par for the course. I'll fall asleep, and hope I sleep.
Ali Eteraz writes some excellent op-eds IMO. Not to say everything he writes, much of which I haven't read anyway.
That sounds like Robert could have written it. Hope that doesn't get Eteraz fired or cause his head to explode. Eteraz is always a good read for the facts and links he puts together, even if he gets the conclusion wrong on that particular day.
Andrew is absolutely right: our CIA degenerates served as mules delivering hell after hell of weaponry and billions of our tax dollars to the anti-Western, bin Laden - allied thug Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, while denying any aid to the pro-Western, anti-Arab Tajik military genius Ahmed Shah-Massoud, the founder of the Northern Alliance.
Read "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll: it provides the whole, accurate chronology of the US romance with the Aghanistan Jihad, in which it now finds itself stuck.
A superb book.
Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.
Beagle,
I'm sure Ali is a terrific guy, fun to have a beer with, but after all his interaction, I don't trust him any farther than I could throw him, and I ain't as young as I used to be.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Hi everyone,
I have to agree with Charles' comment that "when dar al islam spends free cash from the West in Russia buying weapons, we all look like fucking morons, don't we?" Yeah, we do.
An independant investigation into Bhutto's assassination will only distract from the real issue: Pakistan's hiding and support of Osama Ben Laden and other terrorists. Even when Pakistan is officially an "ally in the war on terror." I believe Pakistan is covering up their real allegiances. People in power (or those who want to be elected) will always want us to believe that it's "us" against "them."
I believe that Joe Public (at least here in North America) is tired of "us" against "them." My perception of Islam (from lurking on this site and reading the news generally) is that Muslims want to be the EXCEPTION to the rules. In Canada, when a Muslim father strangles his daughter, he isn't charged with murder, but with manslaughter, as though it was a simple domestic violence issue, rather than something planned and condoned by Islam. (I'm sure that all of you could cite many more examples). The trouble with calls to ban Islam is that it can be perceived as discriminatory, which it is. Banning Islam or the Quoran can be attacked on that basis alone.
Here's something NO world leader is willing to look at: ban ALL religions. (Yes, John Lennon said it and we all know what happened to him.) Stop this stupid "my religion is better than your religion" crap. Because that's just discrimination. If we ban ALL religions, DISCRIMINATIING AGAINST NONE OF THEM, relegating them to the status of "cult", something to be done in the privacy of one's own home, than Islam is INCLUDED, rather than an EXCEPTION.
However, I also realize that JihadWatch is a site specifically dedicated to reporting Muslim activity against non-believers, so what I'm suggesting may be beyond the scope of this website.
A web of deceit and fallacy is sprawling in our lives.
Benazir Bhutto; a would-be US proxy is killed before this that she could have taken over the helm of the affairs in Pakistan (with the assistance of Musharraf; who had soften up the grounds for her take over of power in Pakistan). As per plan; Bhutto, a US abettor was to execute her obligations and full fill the given US mandate in the area. But she was taken out in a very tragic way by the opponent forces.
It was her choice to volunteer herself and serve US interests; to help and be a component in a bigger US scheme of global hegemony. We need to realise that this sky in not blue only in United States or Israel or in Europe. There are people to out to defend their home lands.
Its God plan that; God keeps on revolving the time to different peoples. The area of our contention; Middle East and South East Asia has been under European Colonial Rule, for a long time. The rectitude goes to Adolf Hitler and his German Forces that he emerged in Europe and threatened the home lands of Colonial Subjugators and there after by under taking a grand but very expensive fight of World War II ; the Colonies were remain no more viable and were abundant. Some forty countries were set free. It has just passed some 60 years that subject countries were set free. They were to start from zero with no provision in hand; as all had been since plundered and looted by the departing oppressors.
This is another blight that the old oppressors wants to re-visit their old Empires through a web of deceit and fallacy to regain the power to bind the people here again in the shackles for their ulterior motives These people here are still in the state of their infancy and have just started walking and learning to breath in the bliss of freedom.
How this web of deceit is being woven please refer post with the heading:
‘It was done; in the name of Israel Security’
Daily Star - Lebanon Forum; Middle East Politics; dated 28 November 2006
Please Link: http://www.dailystar.com.lb/forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=6048
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Love for all, Hatred for none