And of course, it might.
By Dharmendra Ashwal for AHN:
Islamabad, Pakistan (AHN) - Following the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, opposition groups have warned of a civil war in Pakistan. Riaz Malik, of the opposition Pakistan Movement for Justice party (Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf), warned, "The impact will be that Pakistan is in more turmoil - it will be the start of civil war in Pakistan.""There will be a lot of fingers pointed at the government. There is a very real danger of civil war in Pakistan," Malik said.
Meanwhile, the entire nation is under a security alert following the suicide bombing and attack that killed Bhutto late Thursday evening in Rawalpindi. Bhutto's supporters took to the streets in cities like Karachi and Lahore, and more unrest is expected on Friday.
In Peshawar police had to use tear gas and batons after angry demonstrators blocked the main highway and torched billboards and posters of the former ruling party, according to reports.
Geo News, a local TV channel, quoted Punjab Home Secretary Khusro Pervaiz Khan as saying that the provincial government has called in the army and contingents of the Rangers to help the police maintain the law and order in these districts.
Er..is the rest of Pakistan going to join their
Brethren in Britain?
Does the U.S. have a dog in this fight? Can we be neutral for once?
"The impact will be that Pakistan is in more turmoil - it will be the start of civil war in Pakistan."
Pakistan is a microcosm for the entire Islamic world. When we leave Iraq the whole place is going to explode. The whole damn place was lost to civilization the day it surrendered to the forces of Islam nothing can turn the clock back now exept maybe a large time machine a few few aircraft carriers. The only thing we can do now is prevent Islam from destroying us the Middle East is gone forever.
Don't laugh too loud, yet. The Muslims in this country (USA) may call for Civil War if their candidate Obama doesn't get elected.
Those nuclear weapons -- what about those nuclear weapons? It was the incredible negligence of Western intelligence agencies and Western governments made possible: A. Q. Khan stole plans from laboratories in the West; the necessary technology came from that West; the money for that nuclear weapons program came from the West -- chiefly the United States, giving aid to its "staunch ally" Pakistan to use to support the "brave Afghani mujahideen" etc.). It is the responsibility of Western governments to get those weapons back, or make sure they are handed over "for safekeeping" during this "temporary" (i.e., permanent) "time of troubles" in Pakistan. Musharraf must be threatened with a total collapse of Pakistan, of its economy: no aid, no favorable treatement for its textiles, no travel to and from the West, no children of the zamindars who own, and the generals who run, Pakistan to be allowed to study, work, or remain in the West. A declaration of war, with a non-negotiable demand: give up those weapons.
As for the rest of Pakistan, it can hold together, it can disintegrate, it can do this or that. Who cares, as long as it doesn't have, and has no chance to re-acquire or transmit to others, such weapons. That's Pakistan.
An eye-opening day so far...to say the least.
Thx, Hugh. Amen to that.
And I second Hugh's comments. As far as the West should be concerned, there really is only one concern, and a mighty concern it is and should be.
Can the world afford a civil war in a state that has nuclear weapons .... at any cost that is the question .... we must have plans for this.
Thx, Hugh. Amen to that.
I would hope we have a plan to keep those nukes safe in the event of "civil strife" in Pakiland. . . . but I'm guessing we don't.
Mushi being such a great "friend and ally" in the war on terror and all. And Pakiland being such a great symbol of democracy in the islamic world.
/sarc
The next few days is going to be stressful at best, horrifying at worst.
One question on my mind (not that it's big enough for more than one at a time) is "are the pakis that have been allowed to immigrate, but not assimilate, to western countries (mainly Britain and Canada) going to spread this civil war to their own neighborhoods?"
Seems to me the muslims in Michigan had a bit of a sunni/shiite tussel when saddam was hung.
Could we have a bigger example of the same rivalries transported to other countires?
My kids have a few Pakis at thier school. I'm seriously considering getting my kids the hell out of there. I don't trust them one bit. Why we let this into our country is beyond me ... total suicide. If they can't produce stable societies why do we need to import them, and their corruption.
Hugh-
I'm not the scholar you are on these matters. I agree the nukes are a nightmare. It will end in a tragedy for the region.
However, as I read Indian history, I cannot help but wonder how the Hindu indigenous culture could have been so destroyed by the Muslim invaders, how it has resulted in a nuclear nightmare in our time, how this was created by the Muslim (Arab-Persian) invaders-yet Muslims take no responsibility for that. What the Muslim invaders did in India is really more atrocious than what Pizarro (a so-called "Christian") did in Peru. Yet the Muslims take no responsibility for this horror in the region. Muslims were/are Pizarro style pigs. Both did severe damage to indigenous cultures.
The chuckle-head Arabs (and their Persian flunkies) are responsible for this evil in greater India. They should pay reparations for the destruction of the Hindu culture in the region (as well as for Arab involvement of the African Negro slave-trade). But they like to pretend that "Imperialism" is purely a West European phenomenon. (As an Irishman, it's a real joke (because we are "white" West Europeans) to be compared to the Arabs (as if we were like them) in the African slave trade. I'm sure you too find it offensive. The whole Arab "race" hustle is really offensive.)
Hugh,
I found this articles a few months ago when Musharaf declared marshal law. Reading it made me sleep a bit easier.
It claims the U.S. has safeguard mechanisms on those nukes called "PALS".
See this story:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/68890
"...spark civil war..."?
Islam is so confusing... Would this be a good or a bad thing?
Assalamau Laikum all,
It is extremely tense here in Lahore, I have ensured that our small showroom is boarded and cars are locked in our gated compound. We are ofcourse glued to GEO images.
They show that she was standing out of the roof of her car. Not a wise decision for a person like her. She was standing on top of her motorcade with no bullet proof vest or any sort of protection. What were her security people thinking. She knew the danger and she was warned many times but in love of power and adamant of doing public rallies, this unfortunate thing was waiting to happen.
As we say in Pak, “From Him do we come, and to him shall we return…”
I tell you peoples.... as long as Pak can only have change brought about by individuals, it will not change.
What we need are institutions - and the political parties should not be immune from this requirement. The parties need to be depositories of certain ideals and policies, that their elected leadership can sell to the nation and implement when they come to power...but at the moment it's all about personalities...and that is not enough because militancy is the most prominent thing in Pakistan, democracy has no chances of survival…..Power house has been burnt .Cars are being burnt, Banks are being burnt.
This is to be the biggest test Pak has faced outside of war, though some may say it is indeed a war.
PPP have lined up Musharraf as the reason for all of this. Nawaz Sharif’s party has, as sickening as it is, already made it a political matter.
In the light of the events of today it can be argued that Musharraf’s attempts to beat back extremism have been ineffective at best, and may have been misleading. Just a few months ago, the Lal Masjid fiasco was a big deal, now it’s nothing. Just a few months ago, the Chief Justice drama was the end of the world, now it's simply normal.
Pak Jawans are dying in the FATA & NWFP everyday. Again, its Pakistani life & blood that’s being lost. It will continue until the people of Pakistan stand up and take control of their destiny.
Pak is once again at a crossroads. Which way we go as a nation will determine how (and if) we survive, the options are not clear to me.
This senseless killing just confirms the opinion of the many people, who believe that our country is slipping slowly into a civil war and eventual breakup.
It is clear that there is no magical answer to our predicament, there is no “hero” (and it is not Dubya) who is going to fly in and save us....BUT perhaps there is ... just perhaps it will pave the way for the messiah to return... like the Jesus (ISA) of the Koran.
It would suit me fine to wake up tomorrow and learn that we'd carried off every scrap of nuclear material possible, and bombed the hell out of the stuff we couldn't carry off- including A.Q Khan.
Those nuclear weapons are bothersome. If they're not taken away and/or destroyed, you all know as well as I do that they'll soon be used. Maybe they'll be used against the locals; maybe they'll be used against neighboring countries; maybe, just maybe, some will end up in a cargo container bound for the port of Long Beach, or New Orleans, or Houston, or...you get the idea.
I don't know where they'll end up, but I'll be willing to bet that it won't take long for one or more to be detonated.
For those of you who believe in the power of praying, you might start seriously praying that we do indeed know where to find Pakistan's nukes, and are ready and willing to act on 'securing' them.
Pray, plan, and prepare.
Thanks for the report Naseem, a showroom, gated compound, cars, hmm...Don't expect Isa or Mahdi any time soon. You better dig a safe room under your house, you may need it...
i am confused more than ever. how could we, europe, russians, chinese be so short sighted ie to accept Islamic republic of pakistan having nuclear weapons. this is going to hound mankind.
time to take them out
Two things: Naseem still lives in an alternative universe and there's no way Pakistan will ever voluntarily hand over its nuclear weapons, regardless of who is in charge there and irrespective of any threat from outsiders to do so or else.
“PPP have lined up Musharraf as the reason for all of this. Nawaz Sharif’s party has, as sickening as it is, already made it a political matter. “
From a post above.
Sounds eerily similar to our very own “loyal opposition” democrat party.
Naseem-
You and I don't agree on much, as I've read your posts over the years I often end up feeling like banging my head against the wall out of sheer frustration!
Still.....be careful out there.
/From a wild bad western womans
Pakistan is lost, not in spite of Islam, but simply because of it... End of story. Thats bound to happen when a country subscribes to an intrinsically adulterated ideology, born of a plagaristic sub-human, one these physical and mental slaves call "the Prophet", only lagging about six centuries behind reality in the modern world.
The US presidential candidates had their say on all the cable news programs today and this evening. blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
O'Reilly was the closest to reality and he was merely on the phone, calling into his own show, with Ingraham sitting in for him.
As a side note, Glenn beck had a re-run...a full hour with Penn Jilette.
God help us all.
We need to do something to stop Muslim immigration and repatriate the Mullahs in west - otherwise our children will be victims of jihad bombing in future!
Perhaps, someone should append the ending of TS Eliots poem 'The Hollow Man'
to "With a bang and a whimper!" It was written before the A-bomb. He didn't know the circumstances of the apocalypse. He only speculated. Even though he used various relegious texts and quotes within the contexts of his poetry...I don't quite remember any Islamic texts.
He saw the truth, but missed the context.
Ahhh, isn't that life?
"otherwise our children will be victims of jihad bombing in future!"
Posted by: Proud Woman at December 27, 2007 9:36 PM
They've already been there and done that. But I concur. It will only get worse, like a cavity-ridden tooth. Eventual extraction is inevitable in order to survive. The only question is how painful it will be.
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle!
I finally agreed with Alan Colmes tonight.
His opinion is that Bhutto returned to Pakistan too soon because our foreign policy was to pressure Musharraf into having democratic elections right away when Pakistan wasn't ready for democracy.
I agree.
With bin Laden more popular than any single candidate and 76% of the people wanting strict sharia law, and the Taliban moving agressively and basically unimpeded, a democratic election would only hasten the day when jihadists take control.
John Bolton is correct to say we should stop the pressure on Musharraf and postpone the upcoming elections.
This drive for democratization as the cure for all that ails Islam has to stop.
"We need to do something to stop Muslim immigration and repatriate the Mullahs in west - otherwise our children will be victims of jihad bombing in future!" ... Posted by Proud Woman
Wishful a best. There is not one country on earth, not one leader with the courage to attempt that kind of action. There is no support among the people, anywhere, to even contemplate doing anything about immigration or repatriation.
Remember, those who know what is going on and can see the end result, are a very small percentage of these western populations.
Nothing of the sort will ever be done. Hope I'm wrong, but that's wishful thinking too.
Nothing is going to be done. I would like to hear what one can can do about it. Give me answers. I need feed back. Do it. I'll pass out to oblivion.
Musharraf must be threatened with a total collapse of Pakistan, of its economy: no aid, no favorable treatement for its textiles, no travel to and from the West, no children of the zamindars who own, and the generals who run, Pakistan to be allowed to study, work, or remain in the West. A declaration of war, with a non-negotiable demand: give up those weapons.
by Hugh
Not just Musharraf. Absent a land, sea and air blockade (and who's going to do that? The US certainly can't, even if it wanted to!), those with moolah and connections will make it to safety. It has ever been thus.
Unless we expect to close off even diplomatic travel, the connected will be just fine. No doubt many of them have foreign accounts already set up for just such an eventuality. How many have already made their way out?
Hugh, you were brilliant tonight in your commetary. As I have predicted, Paki is going to end up in civil war, the people have been supportive of Buhutto, now that she is dead, Mussarriff is a dead man walking.
"This drive for democratization as the cure for all that ails Islam has to stop."
USorThem
Alan Colmes blows with the wind. Whether we support "authoritarian regimes" like Musharraf's or "democratic forces" like Bhutto, Alan Colmes will never be happy. He will always go for the other side. The Left forever complained about Republican presidents who supported "tyrants" over the "burgeoning democratic forces".
I would ask Colmes: who are we (and who is he?) to decide that a country "isn't ready" for democracy?
Islamists aren't ready, but are they the whole country?
Having seen Naseem your comments, all I can say is, get out while there is a chance because Pakistain is a powder keg waiting to explode.
Naseem will face her destiny within her country.
Nuff said>
Pakistan has produced many great daughters. Naseem you ain't one of them.
I hope muslims around the world who see the assassination of Benazir Bhutto as a truely horrible loss - really-give-this-some-thought...Is the path of "Islamophobia!" doing any good at all (falsely creating it and falsely trying to make it a crime)
Benazir Bhutto lead and not enough followed.
It is clear that there is no magical answer to our predicament, there is no “hero” (and it is not Dubya) who is going to fly in and save us....BUT perhaps there is ... just perhaps it will pave the way for the messiah to return... like the Jesus (ISA) of the Koran. - NASEEM
Yes, it could happen that way, that a 'magical being' comes to your rescue and set the world of Pak straight. I empathize with your vision of a better Pakistan. But improbably, it will not happen.
For a people to 'wake up' and take control of their destiny they need men and women of moral strength and honor, those who can be trusted with the people's future destiny, people of high stature. If Pakistan can produce such men and women, then there is a future, but to insist upon using the Sharia model as a future base for society is wrong headed, so even the best of men, or women, will not help with such a system. Only a system of social humanity that honors and respects the individual as equals, both men and women, where the responsibility of such equality is understood and honored by all, only such a system will save a nation. We in the West had many such men, and women, in our history, the likes of Washington and Jefferson, who were not religious but understood the power of honoring the individual with respect, and humility. (Washington was offered the crown, but he refused it and accepted the presidency of the new republic.) When Pakistan raises up such men, and women, then there will be also for your nation hope for a brighter future, for yourselves and your children, and their children.
Mrs. Bhutto's death was a tragedy, one felt all the way over here. But in her death is also the possibility that such an individual, or group of individuals, who are strong and honorable, not rabid religious sharia crazies, who can rise to command and lead a nation. Pakistan as a free nation under secular constitutional law has a great future possible. But this is what is needed, not some magical religious figure, once again sliding into primitiveness and ignorance, and corruption, but men and women of honor and spiritual moral strength, that they will respect the laws and the rights of all men and women, equally. That is what we strive for in the West, however we are imperfect, Let Pak become better and show us how to do it right, and then we are all helping one another. Bhutto's death need not be in vain.
God Bless you Naseem, and your loved ones, that you will be safe.
Bigcatgirl13106, where can Naseem go? I suggest she stay and learn about the real Islam. Perhaps a daily dose of Castor Oil Islam will let her know what non-Muslims in Islamistan know.
Who killed Bhutto? Al Qaeda? Musharraf? The Butler? In my opinion it was Al Qaeda, Musharraf is too smart for this, or he should be. I cannot accept that Musharraf did it; he ought to have the smarts to know what the reaction of the people would be. Musharraf would have had her arrested and thrown under the jail.
Damn, you people are clueless.
I think I'm going to sleep.
Bye.
Don't forget this entry.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019334.php#comments
Bush is going into the lion's den, or serpents lair. He should postpone his visit. The Islamic method dictates that if the assassin cannot get close to the target, use a bigger bomb.
In the Bhutto assassination, the bomb was only an exclamation point to the deed, a way for the killer to avoid being tortured for information.
Damn, you people are clueless.
Posted by: breezy55 at December 27, 2007 11:22 PM
Please clarify.
Have a special ops team retrieve the nuclear warheads and then whatever happens inside the "Pule Land" is Pakistan's problem alone.
The place needs a major thinning of the jihadi herd.
Thank you, Awake! You are so right. Pakistan is lost because of islam. I would like to know if Naseem is for the assasination or against it. She doesn't really say. The problem is Naseem that a person has to take a moral stand against what is inherently wrong. If you truly care about your people you would stop obssessing about the conversion of us infidels(which is not happening) and focus on the real culprit of our revulsion toward your political ideology (islam is not a religion), The barbaric practices of murder and mayhem which is generously proscribed in your sharia law and widely accepted by your fellow muslims. Bhutto's death is just another example of the total absence of sanctity of life that your ideology teaches and maintains. She was a true patriot for your country and apparently that is not a common atribute among your people. Islam will forever remain a chaotic and brutal force which will eventually be reckoned with and not to its pleasure. I do admire your communication with people that you disagree with, so I will pray for you to grow the courage and fortitude that Bhutto had and go the next step. Get involved and make a stand if you truly believed in Bhutto's message.God Bless!
Awake. Do you know the extent of the problem?
"Jihadists are not going to be wished away, rule-of-lawed into submission, or democratized out of existence. If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first. Or they’ll kill you, just like, today, they killed Benazir Bhutto."
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTExNmE0MzY3YjBlYWEwZDkzOThkMWJiM2JmZGQ2NDE=
Awake. Do you know the extent of the problem?
Posted by: breezy55 at December 28, 2007 12:02 AM
What problem is that breezy?
“If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first.”
Posted by: sounder
Precisely, sounder:
Kill the Jihadi – educate the Muslim
Deus Vult!
Naseem
It was mentioned earlier that Begum Sahiba was martyred. Does she get 72 hubbies? Or does she simply go directly to hell? Despite being educated in 'Amrikie', she made a public spectacle of her mother arranging her marriage, and I also recall that when she was PM, her party PPP stood for Perpetually Pregnant PM.
One thing you can't hold against her - she did perform her job as a tilth for Mia 10%.
If you think the wars in the last century were breathtakingly horrifying, you haven't seen anything yet.
> "If you really want democracy and the rule of law in places like Pakistan, you need to kill the jihadists first."
While the last part of that is admirable, the first part is just, plain stupid. The Jihadis, after all, expect to win at the ballot everywhere they are outbreeding the local populations. Then, that truly despicable sacrifice of individual rights before mob sentiment known as "democracy" will molt to reveal its ugly new plummage.
Just as is was in 1934, when the Nazis won their elections in a democratric national republic.
"Rule of law"? WTF is that? I'll tell you: It's the law of the rulers, that's what. They say, you obey. Capish, suckas?
"Bhutto's Assassination May Spark Civil War"
If it happens, Pakistan has brought upon itself. There is a price for supporting LeT, JeM, Taliban and ISI. Finally given what Daniel Pearl suffered, what did Pakistan expect?
I agree with profitsbeard:
Go in and get the nukes, whatever it takes. And let the 'moderates' and the 'radicals' sort each other out.
'Civil war?'- How can you have a civil war in a totally uncivilized place like Pakistan which is built on Islam and nothing but Islam? They are f*kced whichever way they turn, but unless they start roasting the mullahs, mufti's and imam's, unless they burn the mosques and the madrassahs nothing will ever change. On the contrary, they will produce genocidal zombies by the hundreds of thousands, to kill us and our children. And the irony is: We're paying for it!
The idea that 'democracy' can somehow be a solution to Islamic crap-holes is preposterous.
Pelayo,
Well Naseem can head west since she has lived there before. The truth is that it was AQ that took Bhutto out, Mussy will end up next.
The worst USA can do now is to send arms and money to one party in Pakistan v/s another. USA should sit this out, allowing Musharrraf to bring Pakistan under control. I have full faith, confidence and respect in Musharraf's leadership.
Hugh:"Those nuclear weapons -- what about those nuclear weapons? It was the incredible negligence of Western intelligence agencies and Western governments made possible: A. Q. Khan stole plans from laboratories in the West; the necessary technology came from that West; the money for that nuclear weapons program came from the West -- chiefly the United States, giving aid to its "staunch ally" Pakistan to use to support the "brave Afghani mujahideen" etc.). It is the responsibility of Western governments to get those weapons back, or make sure they are handed over "for safekeeping" during this "temporary" (i.e., permanent) "time of troubles" in Pakistan"
What a fabulous post.
Alert:" Finally given what Daniel Pearl suffered, what did Pakistan expect?"
True.
USorThem:"This drive for democratization as the cure for all that ails Islam has to stop."
Absolutely spot on.
I hope the few remaining Hindus can get out of the hole, to friends and relatives in India. Then, sit back, chomp on the popcorn and watch the fireworks. It sure beats the winter repeats.
Assalamau Laikum all,
We only work half day on Fridays ready for lunchtime prayers...but today we will remain closed (for the next 3 days) out of respect for Benizir.
Somerone asked the stupid question as to whether I was for or against the assination. I am against violence...period....especially against possibly the most important person in Pak.
Others asked me to stay safe...thank you for that...others say that I should remain and face whetever comes.
Indeed that is what I plan to do, one has to face that which Allah SWT has in store for them.
Very likely there will be increasing troubles...with a likely hood to moves towards shariat in the coming months.
While the West cringes at divine law...I have faith ...this is what Allah SWT wants...we have been moving away from British colonial rule for the past 60 years back towards Islamic law....it is an irreversable path for Islam in my view....it is my hope however that in light of the nukes, the West can influence for the install of sharia lite...not the full version.
Muslisms too need to reliase that this is what Allah SWT wants.
If there is to be trouble, I hope that I can show the same patience and bravery (though foolhardy) that Benazir showed. This is my home and my life is here.
Benazir was most influential in Karachi region...Lahore is more the other guy's patch...however when it is your time...then it shall end and all other things become irrevelent....so I am now praying the full 5 times...Allah be praised and Allah be merciful.
educate the Muslim
And how do you go about that?
Can't you see that being moslem means rejecting anything not islamic - in other word, anything we believe in and on which our civilization stands? The only moslems capable of education are ex-moslems.
But then they don't need an education anymore than you and I.
correction:
But then they don't need an education any more than you and I.
Naseem, thank-you for the update. Please be very careful over there, and if all possible, if an offer is made to get out, take it. This also goes to any non-Muslim minorities that are there, and in a special way to the small Christian community because it is going to get rough there in the days ahead. Like as I have said, we may see Pakistian explode into civil war bigtime after what has happened in the last day or so.
"we have been moving away from British colonial rule for the past 60 years back towards Islamic law"
Posted by: Naseem
...That is Islam....moving backwards...
“educate the Muslim
And how do you go about that?”
Posted by: thomas. H
FIRST it is necessary to educate the Infidel as to the full scope and horror of Islam and Muhammad and to the impossibility of ever “reforming” it, as it is evil at its very core.
THEN, those same Infidels nedd a refreshing of their knowledge of Western style democracy and all the benefits that flow from it – prosperity, art, science, the possibility of happiness, etc.
NEXT the overt Jihadis must be killed and the rest subdued.
FINALLY whenever democracy is transplanted it must be ENSURED under the barrel of a gun. (Also absolutely no provision in any constitution anywhere for Islam and a prohibition of the introduction of such in the future)
Are not Ayan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq educated?
It can be done, so stop whining and get to work!
Start at the top of the list.
Deus Vult!
Dave -
In light of what I am learning from Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Infidel", I would add the following corollary to your second point, about restoring Infidel civilisational confidence:
all Muslim children currently living within non-Muslim countries should be REQUIRED to attend non-Muslim schools, taught in the medium of the national language (e.g. French in France, English in USA and UK) for the bulk of their education, and at those schools they should be REQUIRED to engage with the full spectrum of that country's non-Muslim cultural heritage, which should be unashamedly presented to them as good. (And NO exemptions from things such as sports, school excursions, or music lessons).
This should be implacably enforced: neither Muslim parents, nor Muslim 'community leaders' should be permitted, ever, to censor the curriculum - or the school libraries! - along strict Muslim lines, or to prevent children from investigating the school library.
Where, in France or Britain or Germany, for example, non-Muslim teachers have been intimidated into modifying the official curriculum so as not to 'offend' Muslims, those teachers need to be given whatever support that they need - up to and including backup in the classroom to face down the 'youths' - to defy that intimidation and reassert the full national curriculum.
It was when Ayaan Hirsi Ali attended an English-medium school in Christian-majority Kenya that she encountered - not only on the official curriculum but through exploring the school library - books in English that 'hooked' her on all kinds of revolutionary assumptions about ...love, loyalty, hope, trust, equality and comradeship of men and women (or of girls and boys), and openness to the new. Not radical books or even 'great literature' - things like the Nancy Drew detective stories, and the Enid Blyton 'Famous Five' and 'Secret Seven' adventures.
And - beyond that - Ayaan gives a lot of credit to the trashy 'Harlequin' type romances that circulated from hand to hand amongst all the girls, Muslim, Hindu, Kenyan animist, and Christian, and were devoured with equal pleasure by all! The liberating and life-affirming effect of these romances, according to Ayaan's testimonial, appears to me to be a very good argument for permitting and maintaining an extensive 'best of popular romance' section in the libraries of Infidel high schools with Muslim girl pupils!
Dumbledoresarmy,
I completely agree with all of your points. Well said.
How is it that we somehow expect Muslims not to “act like Muslims” when we DO NOTHING to counter the daily hate that they are force fed by the Imam’s? This is true both in our own countries and abroad. Not only do we not contest the words of Islam, we bend over backwards to pretend it is a “religion of peace”.
Davegreybeard ,
Actually I wrote:
"educate the Muslim?
And how do you go about that?
Can't you see that being moslem means rejecting anything not islamic - in other word, anything we believe in and on which our civilization stands? The only moslems capable of education are ex-moslems."
I hoped that the last part would point at both the rhetorical nature of my question and unrealistic character of your recommendation. You found it more convenient to ignore the bulk of my comment so you may continue delivering your half baked counsel without regard to what I actually said.
May I also add that the two first points on your bombastic list of "what to do" tells us of your plans for education of the Infidel. Well, good for you, except that the question is, as you may recall, "how do you educate Moslems" – not infidel.
Do you care explaining how your otherwise quite magnificent design answers the simple question?
Another thing is that both Hirsi Ali and Ibn Barak whom you, for some strange reason, present as educated Moslems are actually ex-moslems, or not Moslems at all. Do you really think their apostasy was a result of being subjected to an educational program designed by someone as inspired as yourself?
I will abstain from commenting on your vision of democracy first "transplanted" (what a choice of word) on Moslems and then " ENSURED under the barrel of a gun".
I will limit myself to observing that your, yet another, grand scheme is not only oxymoronic, but downright wacky. But I admit there is something, shall we say...poetic about it.
Now seriously, how are you going to pull off THAT trick? And whose "barrel of gun" are you talking about? Please do give us more details. And, please, please, after telling us WHAT we must do give us a hint HOW to do it.
It can be done, so stop whining and get to work!
Start at the top of the list.
Excuse moi?
Is it your Teddy Roosevelt impersonation act?
thomas. H,
To engage a fool in debate is to risk that some may not be able to tell the difference.
At great personal peril, I shall proceed on with you, for just a bit.
You are so busy confusing yourself with questions (that you have already answered in your own simple mind) that you completely fail to pay attention.
I have laid out a very simple plan for victory – I say again START AT THE TOP.
So, since you know everything genius, what’s YOUR plan to save the Western world?
Educate the Muslims?
I fear the educated Muslims more than the primitive, poor, illiterate rabble. There is ample evidence that educated Muslims are more dangerous to us and our way of life than the impoverished, starving masses of Pakistan, Bangladesh or Mauritania.
Mohammed Atta, the Glasgow doctor, Zawahiri, OBL: all educated Muslims. No thank you!
O.K. I have taken a deep breath.
Ayan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq WERE MUSLIMS WHEN THEY BEGAN their quest for knowledge. They were very brave and inquisitive individuals and found the truth with little overt outside help. How many more out of 1.5 BILLION would there be with just a little help from us? And how many, many more when those “ex Muslims” began helping the rest.
To believe, that once a Muslim always a Muslim and that there are not many that would be willing to give up Islam is “not only oxymoronic, but downright wacky.” We will not be able to covert them all but we can certainly shrink the tumor, if we try.
And we have not yet tried – not at all, not a bit.
More simple answers to simple questions:
One cannot hope to educate anyone about anything unless one thoroughly knows the subject matter beforehand.
THE INFIDEL MUST FIRST BE EDUCATED IN ISLAM
THE INFIDEL MUST UNDERSTAND THE VALUE OF WESTERN DEMOCRACY
NEXT the overt Jihadis must be killed and the rest subdued. (Hopefully this requires no explanation, even to a simpleton)
When democracy is transplanted it is to be protected under the barrels of OUR guns and those locals that we entrust to that task. The fledgling democracy is to be liberally and frequently showered with the same knowledge as the Infidel in the first two points.
Davegreybird,
So, since you know everything genius, what’s YOUR plan to save the Western world?
Never claimed to have one, but do you mean that since I don't, I must not make fun of YOUR plan? But why did you have to make it so comically nutty?
Really, world saviour, have you tried yet to submit YOUR plan to the Pentagon? The President, EU? Vatican? Hollywood? Santa Claus?
Why not? They would all stand in awe when presented with Churchillian lines like:
"I have laid out a very simple plan for victory"
""When democracy is transplanted it is to be protected under the barrels of OUR guns""
""THE INFIDEL MUST FIRST BE EDUCATED IN ISLAM""
""THE INFIDEL MUST UNDERSTAND THE VALUE OF WESTERN DEMOCRACY""
""the Jihadi MUST be killed""
Or perhaps you did show it to them only to hear: "You MUST see a doctor!"
Davebirdbrain,
I was trying to single out the most loony bit of your posting. It definitely is not the easiest task as it is filled to the brim with most exquisite examples of inanity
But I think that "When democracy is transplanted it is to be protected under the barrels of OUR guns and those locals that we entrust to that task. The fledgling democracy is to be liberally and frequently showered with the same knowledge as the Infidel in the first two points." is a winner.
I just love it.
A true gem of silliness where the vacuity of the message merges seamlessly with its hilarious pomposity. In fact one has a problem deciding whether one witness here a portentous idiocy, or idiotic portentousness.
You should definitely have your own blog.
But seriously now; do you put on your Napoleon hat before setting off to produce such poetry?
Birdbrain? The enemy is birdbrain?
Great piece thomas h. – your finest yet, I’m sure!
Great piece thomas h. – your finest yet, I’m sure!
Far from it!
You see, one adapts the quality of one's "piece" to the intellectual caliber of one's interlocutor. In other words, one needs to be properly stimulated.
True, you did provide a stimulation, but it was of my sarcastic "bone" - not my intellect.
The “bone” is between your ears Thomas.
You have nothing of value to add – you are a waste of time.
You have nothing of value to add – you are a waste of time.
The only value that can be added to gibberish is to ridicule it. In that sense I have added a lot of value to your comical twaddle. I also had some fun kicking your ass, so it wasn't entirely a waste of time.
But, alas, it is time to part now.
You will go back to add the last touch to your Amazing World Saving Plan and I will print out your step-by step "very simple plan for victory", as you call it, and hang it on the wall. It will, no doubt, cause a lot of merriment to my guests and maybe turn into a collector's item one day. One never knows...
So, good bye Dear Davegreybird and thanks for the laughs you, inadvertently, provided.