68 killed on Shi'ite holiday in Iraq

Inquiring minds want to know, where is Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and what is he doing on this blessed day. Anybody seen any pictures?

Assalamau Laikum all,

I think that you can see that Assura is a bit of a paradox. On the one hand it IS supposed to be a peace march...but it is intersperced with emotion on the fateful martyrdom of Imam Ali all those years ago...shiites do not forget.

While free flowing blood and the odd little knifes and chains are permissable to "go with the flow", there really is no place for bombs.

Ironically the only place where Assura can be take place without Shiites being killed is in the West.

Lots of them (fellow muslims) have been killed in Iraq and in my Pak too...such is the shame in my heart about this.

I think it would be very magnanmous of the Amerike to allow an Assura march along ground zero....it would be peaceful, no one will be killed and yet the flow of blood on that ground will somehow infuse with the blood of the 3000 killed there.

The emotion would be exhilirating, womens beating their breasts wailing, bare chested men with chains...their breasts red too from the blood, relatives of the 3000 crying and shaking...somehow trying to reach out to their loved ones gone to Allah Paak....it would make up for a march never to be forgotten....this is what I woould hope to see.

Naseem,

It would be unacceptable to me and the majority of Americans to see a march of this kind at ground zero. IMHO the cult of Islam needs to be put into the dustbin of history, the world would be a much saner and more peaceful place.

I think it would be very magnanmous of the Amerike to allow an Assura march along ground zero....it would be peaceful, no one will be killed and yet the flow of blood on that ground will somehow infuse with the blood of the 3000 killed there.

This is sick stuff Naseem as is the paragraph below it.
But on the other hand, Allah does seem to like to see the blood of muslims, I guess anything to please Allah is justified. Seems like Mahdi must like blood and chaos as well, since it takes a lot of those to get him 'stirred up' to the point of appearing.
Do they have psychiatrists in Lahore, or is it assumed that all muslims are mentally fit by virtue of being muslim? You need to run to the local witch doctor and get a few bones to rattle, Mohammad's demons are closing in on you...

What a crude way of mourning the death of a 7th century warlord Imam husayn who was killed in a jihad battle.Thats actually good for the infidels as the muslim jihadis are killing themselves.Then no Human rights organisations will be able to sue infidels of killing pious muslims jihadis.

Hi Robert,
Iraqi blogger Ladybird has an interesting note on the Soldiers of Heaven leader: Reported on Al arabiya that the leader of the group is among the dead, but Al Arabiya says that the group is “Slodiers (sic) of Heaven” which Iraqi government announce his death about a year ago [see this link “Leader of – Soldiers of Heaven- reported dead a year ago now is alive“].

One of the more important things to take out of this inter-sectarian clash between the Shiites is how unprofessional the Iraqi security forces acted:

Ladybird: First images and video reported from today’s clashes in Basra with Ansar Al Mahdi group, the video shows Iraqi soldiers kicking and beating a prisoner, at least one scene shows an Iraqi soldier kicking injured person from the group, after one soldier tried to kill him but other soldiers prevented him from doing that.

From Iraqi blogger Nibras Kazimi: Then five minutes into the video, we see a badly wounded cult member who seems as if he is dying. He is taunting the soldiers by encouraging them to kill him and calling them "cowards" and "debased". But the excitable reaction from the soldiers exposed them as undisciplined and thuggish: instead of providing medical aid, they left him to bleed and cursed him out by saying that the cult members were "Jews" and "infidels". One placed him boot on the dying man's mouth to keep him from talking and another spat on him. Others broke out into a chant, the longer version of which is associated with the Sadrist movement.

On another note muslims must celebrate ashura daily as it will wipe out the jihadi threat without the need of infidels to waste trillions of dollars in "bring freedom to oridinary Muslim Iraqi Moms and Dads".

More on the Hidden Imam from Wikipedia:

Birth and early life according to Twelver Shi'as
Twelver Shi'as believe that Muhammad was born in 868 AD as Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali. There is debate within the Twelver community who his mother is. Many believe his mother, Narjis (Melika), was a Byzantine princess who pretended to be a slave so that she might travel from her kingdom to Arabia. However, some Shi'ah and scholars like Hamid Algar state that it is more likely that his mother was a Nubian slave. His father, Hasan al-Askari, is believed to have been the eleventh and penultimate Shi'a Imam. Shi'as believe that his birth was kept a secret due to the persecution that the Shi'a were facing during this time at the hands of Al-Mu'tamid, the Abbasid Caliph.

To support Muhammad's claim, Twelver Shi'as quote the following Hadith: "I and `Ali are the fathers of this nation; whoever knows us very well also knows Allah, and whoever denies us also denies Allah, the Unique, the Mighty. And from `Ali's descendants are my grandsons al­-Hasan and al-­Husayn, who are the masters of the youths of Paradise, and from al-­Husayn's descendants shall be nine: whoever obeys them obeys me, and whoever disobeys them also disobeys me; the ninth among them is their Qa'im and Mahdi."

The eleventh Shi'a Imam Hasan al-Askari died on 1 January 874 AD (8th Rabi' al-awwal, 260 AH) and since that day, his son Muhammad is believed by Shi'as to be the Imam, appointed by God, to lead the believers of the era. The most popular account of Muhammad al-Mahdi in Shi'a literature is taken from his father's funeral. It is reported that as the funeral prayer was about to begin, Muhammad al-Mahdi's uncle, Jafar ibn Ali approached to lead the prayers. However, Muhammad al-Mahdi approached and commanded, "Move aside, uncle; only an Imam can lead the funeral prayer of an Imam." Jafar moved aside, and the five-year-old child led the funeral prayer for his father. It is reported that it was at this very moment that Muhammad al-Mahdi disappeared and went into ghaybat, or occultation.

The Occultation

Shi'as believe that, for various reasons, God concealed the twelfth and current Shi'a Imam, Muhammad al-Mahdi, from humankind.

Period

The period of occultation (ghaybat) is believed to consist of two parts:

Ghaybat al-Sughra or Minor Occultation (874-939) is the shorter of the two periods, during which deputies of the Imam maintained communication to the rest of the world.

Ghaybat al-Kubra or Major Occultation began 939 and is believed to continue until a time decided by God, when the Mahdi will reappear to bring absolute justice to the world.

Reasons
Shi'as cite references from the Qur'an and from various hadith (reports) in order to provide the following reasons behind the Mahdi's occultation.

1) Unknown

One of the reasons behind the Mahdi's occultation has been concealed by God from humankind.

2) Trial

The occultation, and in particular, its long duration, is a trial for believers. Shi'as believe that God examines the believers for the faith in their hearts and their beliefs in relation to the existence of the Mahdi, as well as their loyalty to him.

3) Preparation
Before the Mahdi reappears to establish absolute justice throughout the world, humankind needs to make a certain amount of preparation. There will come a point when all ideologies and doctrines will fail and when every leader and government will rise to solve problems but will fail. It will then become clear that no one is capable of establishing justice in the world except God's viceregent, the Mahdi. Due to the lack of preparation and mankind's low level of readiness to accept the rules of God, Imam Mahdi has been concealed.

4) Lack of acceptance

Due to the persecution of believers and, in particular, of the other Shi'a Imams, as well as the prophets, it is clear that people are still refusing to accept God's viceregents. Thus, just as Shi'as believe that God concealed prophets Isa (Jesus), Idris (Enoch), Ilyas (Elijah) and Khidhr. God has also hidden the Mahdi from humankind until such a time when suitable circumstances have arisen for his reappearance.

Minor Occultation

During the Minor Occultation (Ghaybat al-Sughra), it is believed that Muhammad al-Mahdi maintained contact with his followers via deputies (Arab. an-nuwāb al-arbaʕa). They represented him and acted as agents between him and his followers.

Whenever the believers faced a problem, they would write their concerns and send them to his deputy. The deputy would ascertain his verdict, endorse it with his seal and signature and return it to the relevant parties. The deputies also collected zakat and khums on his behalf. For the Shia, the idea of consulting a hidden Imam was not something new because the two prior Shia Imams had, on occasion, met with their followers from behind a curtain.

Shia Tradition hold that four deputies acted in succession to one another:

Uthman ibn Sa’id al-Asadi
Abu Jafar Muhammad ibn Uthman
Abul Qasim Husayn ibn Ruh al-Nawbakhti
Abul Hasan Ali ibn Muhammad al-Samarri
In 941 (329 AH), the 4th deputy announced an order by Muhammad al-Mahdi, that the deputy would soon die and that the deputyship would end and the period of the Major Occultation would begin.

The 4th deputy died six days later and the Shi'a Muslims continue to await the reappearance of the Mahdi. In the same year, many notable Shi'a scholars such as Ali ibn Babwayh Qummi and Muhammad ibn Yaqub Kulayni, the learned compiler of al-Kafi also died.

Major Occultation

According to the last letter of Muhammad al-Mahdi to Ali ibn Muhammad al-Samarri "from the day of your death [the last deputy] the period of my major occultation (al ghaybatul kubra) will begin. Hence forth, no one will see me, unless and until Allah makes me appear. My reappearance will take place after a very long time when people will have grown tired of waiting and those who are weak in their faith will say: What! Is he still alive?"

As he said in this letter, nobody will claim to have seen him except liars.

Another letter from Muhammad al-Mahdi says: "Rest assured, no one has a special relationship with Allah. Whoever denies me is not from my (community). The appearance of the Relief (al-Faraj) depends solely upon Allah. Therefore those who propose a certain time for it are liars. As to the benefit of my existence in occultation, it is like the benefit of the sun behind the clouds where the eyes do not see it."

With regards to advice for his followers during his absence, he is reported to have said: "Refer to the transmitters of our traditions, for they are my hujja (proof) unto you and I am God’s proof unto them."

Reappearance

Twelver Shi'as cite various references from the Qur'an and reports, or Hadith, from Muhammad and the twelve Shi'a Imams with regard to the reappearance of Muhammad al-Mahdi who would, in accordance with God's command, bring justice and peace to the world by establishing Islam throughout the world.

Muhammad is reported to have said:

"During the last times, my people will be afflicted with terrible and unprecedented calamities and misfortunes from their rulers, so much so that this vast earth will appear small to them. Persecution and injustice will engulf the earth. The believers will find no shelter to seek refuge from these tortures and injustices. At such a time, God will raise from my progeny a man who will establish peace and justice on this earth in the same way as it had been filled with injustice and distress."[citation needed]

Shi'as believe that Muhammad al-Mahdi will reappear when the world has fallen into chaos and civil war emerges between the human race for no reason. At this time, it is believed, half of the true believers will ride from Yemen carrying white flags to Mecca, while the other half will ride from Karbala, in Iraq, carrying black flags to Mecca. At this time, Muhammad al-Mahdi will come wielding God's Sword, the Blade of Evil's Bane, Zulfiqar (Arabic: ذو الفقار, ðū l-fiqār), the Double-Bladed Sword.

Sunni view

Sunni Muslims do not consider Muhammad to be the Mahdi nor to be in occultation.

Sorry 'bring' should be 'bringing' in my above post.

"While free flowing blood and the odd little knifes and chains are permissable to "go with the flow", there really is no place for bombs.

Ironically the only place where Assura can be take place without Shiites being killed is in the West."

Naseem, where is the religion in celebrating the murder of your co-religionist by bleeding yourself profusely playing with swords? How does bleeding yourself significantly show anything, but a pathetic perverse claim that you are bleeding yourself in earnest because a great immam was murdered? Why don't you believe the sunnis when they assure you that your mahdi won't come back because they for sure killed him, hacking him to little pieces and murdering all his children? Why don't you focus on the psycopathy of your religion where the first four of the first five immams are murdered by each other or their supporters?

What kind of religion has a god that requires you to murder each other? What kind of religion requires you to murder infidels until there is no god left but this murderous one desirous that all those still living are to mutter to him in slave like submission five times a day? Why does your god require you to bleed yourself significantly in public ritual at least once a year?

Yes, Naseem, we have freedom of religion in the West. islam by its vile nature is likely to test the boundaries of this freedom. However, your "holy" ritual (and I wonder why every journalist consistently describes Najif as "holy," how does the press censor all these articles consistently to describe Najif as holy?) will likely not be allowed in the west. On reflection, western courts find that the risk to the public of aids because of blood exposure will likely allow state authorities to ban the activity. Courts will hold that when balanced with an individual right of religious freedom, public health will be more important.

I also think the Western law will hold that a parent who encourages or allows its child to cut its head with a sword is guilty of child abuse.
Perhaps moslem parents who allow the behavior you describe should be taken away by children protective services for child abuse.

Muslims claim they are only worried about the next world, but isn't it odd Nassem, how much attention you devote to blood and death in this one!

Mohammad: "During the last times, my people will be afflicted with terrible and unprecedented calamities and misfortunes from their rulers, so much so that this vast earth will appear small to them.

This is an interesting statement, the calamities he cites are not caused by kufr's, the west, or even
the weather...but from 'their rulers'. So muslim
'rulers', not just leaders, will 'afflict' these misfortunes on Mohammads people, muslims.
I bet Geo Bush will be glad to hear that. The statement by Mohammad exonerates him, and Israel.
It puts the blame for these calamities, right where they belong, with Islamic 'rulers'.
Did you read that Ahmadinijad? I bet he did...

Looks like my last vacation to the Catskills. It was fun for the whole family.

Memo to President Bush: Hey, just and idea, but, let's give thousands of these muslim moms and dads visas to come to the United States. Remember what you said, "Family values do not stop at the border".

I think I read that Dinnerjacket goes to a well somewhere in Iran, from which the Twelfth Imam is supposed arise. Do we know where tha well is. Can we bomb the well? I am serious.

BAGHDAD - Hundreds of thousands of frenzied Shiites beat their heads and chests in unison and whipped themselves with chains Saturday across Iraq . . . . The processions were marred by violence . . . .

Give the reporter a Pulitzer! News-writing doesn't get any better than this.

I think it would be very magnanmous of the Amerike to allow an Assura march along ground zero....it would be peaceful, no one will be killed and yet the flow of blood on that ground will somehow infuse with the blood of the 3000 killed there. -posted above by you-know-who

The utter and complete insensitivity of this remark is beyond belief. There is no heart, no soul, in this remark. It's just bestial, that is all. It brays and oinks and growls and howls.

The thing about Shiites, to me, is an amplification of the basic problem of Islam/ muslims, and that is hurt pride and a feeling of being unfairly treated. Since Abraham cast out their forefather Ishmael and his slave mom, Muslims in general have a chip on their shoulder about the raw deal they got (what was that, 4000 years ago?). On top of that, this stuff with Ali getting murdered puts a chip on the chip's shoulder. (What was that, 1400 years ago?) And it doesn't help that they come from a region where everyone is hot-headed and volatile...

Naseem, no offense intended, but we do not want to see blood in the streets nor this celebration of victimhood. We prefer our blood and gore behind an R rating at the cinema, and don't mind paying for it's production in a simulated manner.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened." 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.
*************************
From I Kings 18

Why can't they do this on Fifth Avenue?

I think I read that Dinnerjacket goes to a well somewhere in Iran, from which the Twelfth Imam is supposed arise. Do we know where tha well is. Can we bomb the well? I am serious.
Posted by: sparrow

The well is near the city of Qum in Iran. The well is at a place called Jamkaran. There is a mosque built over and around the well. I have no idea if the actual well has water or is dry. If it has water, Mahdi must be a fish... I don't think it is worthy of bombing...

I thought I just saw Hugh quote from Wikipedia.

Must need more coffee.

In fairness it should be noted that during the great Plague there was a Christian sect called the Flagellants who went about whipping themselves in order to deflect God's wrath. However, also in fairness, it must be noted that after a few years the Church lost patience with these wackos and had them arrested.

I thought I just saw Hugh quote from Wikipedia.

Must need more coffee.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen

I noticed that too. LOL. I guess Hugh thought the write up there was accurate enough. There is lots of stuff on Mahdi. I once had on bookmark, a web site where several Imams, both Shia and Sunni, attended a series of meetings to discuss Mahdi in history and future. They kept minutes, which is the substance of the site. There were over twenty long chapters. I read the first eight and got bored. That site was on a hardrive that is long gone, but I may be able to find it again and post the site. It's interesting reading if you can wade through the boredom of it all...

Darcy
I must agree with you regarding Naseem.
A lot of the posts Naseem sends have an element of cruelty to them.
The posts always seem to bait people.
I guess this appalling attitude comes as second nature to muslims.
What a truly vile person and an equally vile doctrine

The shame is that our own soldiers have been killed or injured trying to intervene in an internal conflict among these uncivilized savages.
And there will be no Ashoura S&M fest at ground zero - rest Ashoura'd.

Darcy
I must agree with you regarding Naseem.
A lot of the posts Naseem sends have an element of cruelty to them --posted by Freedom

Hi Freedom. The ground zero suggestion is more than just cruel, it's diabolical.

"The processions were marred by violence with a deadly bombing in northern Iraq and clashes south of Baghdad."

This "procession" marred itself quite nicely, thanks. Really, it would not have seemed quite the same this year without a few suicide bombings thrown in to spice things up.

How any rational human can look upon Islam as anything but a massive abomination is beyond reason.

Although Naseem denies it, I believe that she is a froll.
Her words are meant to show us the depths of our dhimmitude.

God, your people need you.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3496543,00.html

Here's the shorter version of the Hidden Iman:

Blah blah blood knives blah blah yadda yadda 886 a.d. yadda yadda kill kill knives yadda blah blah yadda.

Doesn't that sort of sum up Islam in general?

Every time I look at that bloody picture, I think of how the blood banks of the world would love to have that blood donated, than wasted in this departure from reality called Assura. Mortification of the flesh may be common in some religious sects outside Islam, but it is a sick practice no matter who is doing it. Rolling around naked in sticker bushes,
(a metaphor for self flagellation or abuse),
for religious purposes, is perversion in my opinion.
Disgusting and deviant behavior from the ROP.

... the Mahdi -- a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad who disappeared as a child in the ninth century. Shiites believe he will return one day to bring justice to Earth....

What will happen once they take over the Earth? Who will perpetrate the injustices required to impel the spirit of Islam? More important, who will work for a living, will they have to keep the Dhimmis around to keep goods and services flowing? Most important, will these subadult children called Moslems be able to resist the tempatations of nuclear, biological, and chemical WMDs placed into Moslem control by the intellectual offspring of the Hillarys and Vladimirs?

John Crankraft Piggery
Seer and Diviner
REVEALS
A Secret Hidden for Ages:

The Twelfth Imam and Successor of The Prophet

is

`H U G H
F I T Z G E R A L D !!

Ameen.

Nauseem, what do you look like today and why are'nt you with you friends beatin the crap out of yourself , your like your cults leaders, you talk the talk but you don't walk the walk , we have your cults number and the wheel of fortune is slowly comming to a halt, enjoy your winnings!!!!! my tax funded friends are comming to your neighborhood soon.

Behold the demented fruits of multiculturalism and diversity.

As ebonystone noted above, it's amazing that the reporter didn't consider the bloody parade violent.

Naseem: Ironically the only place where Assura can be take place without Shiites being killed is in the West.

There's nothing ironic at all about it. The West has, with great effort over the last few centuries, managed to relegate most of this kind of behavior to history and fiction.

It would "very magnanimous" of Muslims to help keep this kind of masochistic crap out of "Amerike" and begin removing from their own midst. It might also be a step toward reducing the chance that Islamic "civilization" will become one big ground zero.

Would you take candy from a Moslem?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/01/20/iraq.main/

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Carrying explosives in a box of candy, a suicide bomber detonated in a town in Iraq's Anbar province Sunday, killing six people, including a sheikh whom the United States had recently freed, and wounded four others, an Interior Ministry official said....

Hey, what do you know, I agree with "Naseem" on something. As long as we want to pretend that Islam is compatible with democracy, and pretend that there is no danger in allowing as many Muslims as will come into our country, I think we have to respect their right to enjoy the freedoms that they are fighting to eradicate, such as free speech. I would welcome a bloody chain-wielding Ashoura parade in NYC. Hopefully they could bring their "Islam Will Dominate the World" signs, and their posters with a picture of the White House with a black Islamic flag flying above it. Hopefully there would be lots of television cameras.

Hopefully there would be lots of commentators. I wouldn't even care if they were the "Islam is the RoP" commentators; making such comments over images of people cutting the heads of babies to draw blood would give a special poignancy to their commentary.

Most teaching moments are too pedantic, too boring, for most people to pay attention. So, let's bring on the "Ashoura at WTC Festival". No one could miss the significance.

The hidden imam disappeared as a child. It was later determined that he'd become one of the "bacha bereesh", teenage boys without beards who dress up as girls and dance for ghey male patrons at parties.

There are constant reports of riots and murders and general mayhem around the mohammedan holidays.

It's characteristic.

All the anti-human ritualized violence.

Ritual stonings in mecca (or medina, or wherever). Ritual self-abuse. The creepy black robes and hooded faces.

Disgusting. But typical.

And it's pretty hard for me to act surprised that violence broke out at a public festival where thousands run around in the streets beating themselves bloody.

Or to care.

I just don't want them here.

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Rom 9:13 KJV

"Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." Deut 14:1-2 KJV

The Mahdi, or Hidden Imam (homosexual descendant of hoMohammad) disappeared as a child. It was later determined that he'd become one of the "bacha bereesh", teenage boys without beards who dress up as girls and dance for ghey male patrons at parties.

Why can't they do this on Fifth Avenue?

Posted by: Whistling Dixie at January 20, 2008 10:40 AM

"Philistines upon you, Samson!"

I think it would be very magnanmous of the Amerike to allow an Assura march along ground zero....it would be peaceful, no one will be killed and yet the flow of blood on that ground will somehow infuse with the blood of the 3000 killed there.

The emotion would be exhilirating, womens beating their breasts wailing, bare chested men with chains...their breasts red too from the blood, relatives of the 3000 crying and shaking...somehow trying to reach out to their loved ones gone to Allah Paak....it would make up for a march never to be forgotten....this is what I woould hope to see.

===================

The thing that makes America truly a Christian nation is the fact that we have the concept of forgiveness melded into our bones, our spirit. The quote from Bible, 'I press on, forgetting what is behind, and striving towards the prize...' this is what makes Christianity different from Islam. We forgive and forget, then press on to the prize.

Blood doesn't erase blood, Naseem. Forgiveness does.

Assalamau Laikum all,

I think that you can see that Assura is a bit of a paradox. On the one hand it IS supposed to be a peace march...but it is intersperced with emotion on the fateful martyrdom of Imam Ali all those years ago...shiites do not forget.

While free flowing blood and the odd little knifes and chains are permissable to "go with the flow", there really is no place for bombs.

Nazeem once again.. speweth forth the above..

Hey... what's a little blood in islam..? That's a peace march for you guys if I ever saw one. There are completely different norms when it comes to the cult of Mo.

Now I am going to watch a peaceful game of Football..

Maybe they need to watch more football and things.. cricket doesn't seem the cure for the addled pak brain.

Hugh citing Wiki? He's been known to do that in the past - I remember one time while describing 'bidis'. Too bad I can't locate it right now.

I agree w/ Special Guest, Whistling Dixie, & others - maybe we should have it here. Incidentally, don't they already have it in Dearbornistan? - That would be a party that even the valorous Debbie Schlussel would shy away from infiltrating. Instead of Ground Zero, Park Avenue or Fifth Street, why not have it in San Francisco, Mission Street on a nice clear evening? Or maybe further north east in Richmond?

Kya, Naseem-begum, yeh sab aapke Lahore may nei hota? (doesn't all this take place in Lahore?)

In fairness it should be noted that during the great Plague there was a Christian sect called the Flagellants who went about whipping themselves in order to deflect God's wrath. However, also in fairness, it must be noted that after a few years the Church lost patience with these wackos and had them arrested.

Posted by: RBLA

------------

Interesting fact. Also to be considered is the fact that the printing press made the Bible much more accessible to the public. People could then read it and learn for themselves that this practice (along with several others) are not acceptable to Hebrews or Christians. Scriptures were available for reading, like these:

"Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead (shave your forehead) ... for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God..."

The photo shows only adult men bleeding from slashes. On other occasions, I have seen pictures of boys also slashed -- some of them young enough that their mothers lovingly did the slashing for them. Is that a different holiday? Or did they just omit the pictures of the kiddies this time?

Kay, aunty dhimmi and interestinconundrum

spot on!

Islam is a sick cult without any description or bounds. I don't believe there is a cure for the absolute f..-up brain like you see in these blooding pictures.

Keep Islam out of West. We don't need sick cult here. If we ever need one, we will grow one our own.

Islam is a sick cult without any description or bounds. I don't believe there is a cure for the absolute f..-up brains like you see in these blooding pictures.

Keep Islam out of West. We don't need sick cult here. If we ever need one, we will grow one our own.

I think it would be very magnanmous of the Amerike to allow an Assura march along ground zero....it would be peaceful, no one will be killed and yet the flow of blood on that ground will somehow infuse with the blood of the 3000 killed there.

I have a better plan, Naseem. Why don't 3000 of your finest martyrs visit Ground Zero, this September 11th (without their bombs). They could cut their heads and beat their breasts, if they would like to, while the families and friends of those who died on 9/11, 2001 mow them down with any weapon of their choice. Afterward, they could be burned dead or alive, in a simulation of what happened to so many of those WTC victims

Finally, you would have some genuine martyrs, rather than murderers, to brag about.

The emotion would be exhilirating...

Actually, your high holy day sounds miserable, to me.

womens beating their breasts wailing...

That is truly a dignified spectacle, I'm sure. Do they ululate, too?

bare chested men with chains...

Like in a biker bar?

it would make up for a march never to be forgotten....this is what I woould hope to see.

Naseem! Surely you can't mean that you would like to see deceased infidels accorded the same honor in death that is now reserved for this most revered saint? How very un-islamic of you!

Memo on upcoming Assura celebrations:

The Goal: Demonstrate to the world how the Religion of Peace celebrates its noble faith and rich cultural heritage during the annual holiday.

The Plan:
Assemble mobs of bleeding zombies with self inflicted wounds, to chant and march on bloodsoaked, corpse strewn streets while bombs explode, bullets fly, and the body count rises towards triple digits.

Note: Some in the West may not agree 100% with our Plan, but that can be attributed to Islamophobia.

Assalamau Laikum Abscedere,

You said "Why don't 3000 of your finest martyrs visit Ground Zero, this September 11th (without their bombs). the families and friends of those who died on 9/11, 2001 mow them down with any weapon of their choice".

Well I never....eeeever would have imagined it.

Here we have a grown woman and a practicing (peaceful?) christian to boot... advocating ....yes advocating cold bloodied murder of 3000 innocent muslims.

Yes, Abscedere...these peoples may want to cut their heads open...and let the blood flow...but they were not responsible for 9/11...yet you want other christians to join you in an orgy of killing using all manner of weapons.., guns, bombs, knives, axes, etc. like so many of your grandchilderns do in those hideous video games these days.

Isabella, Bigcatgirl, greekgurl, dumle-what's-his- name's army....Let it be shown on record here today ...that christian thinking is not all about forgivness....it can be just as coloured as other peaceful religions.

Now we all know what you think Abscedere....and it ain't peaceful or pretty or smelling full of roses....but still I say "peace be unto you"

Allah Hafiz

Naseem,

I have a better idea: why not organize a Christan procession -- crosses and all - over the spot these 68 Muslim pirgrims were murdered.

Since Christians had nothing to do with murdering these people, there would be no question of defiling the site.

Here we have a grown woman and a practicing (peaceful?) christian to boot...

I never said I was a good Christian. And I never claimed to be peaceful, either.

advocating ....yes advocating cold bloodied murder of 3000 innocent muslims.

Oh my! What a shock! Were you wearing hijab when you danced in the streets on 9/11, Naseem, or a full burqa?

You might want to read my post again. I suggested that martyrs, (volunteers, willing to die for their faith) come to be slain in the glorious way of Allah.

This would by no means be cold-blooded. Cold-blooded, is killing just to kill. You know what I mean-- Like flying airplanes into buildings, just for the fun of it. I'm suggesting revenge. It's a different thing.

Yes, Abscedere...these peoples may want to cut their heads open...and let the blood flow...

Utterly disgusting. A display of mass hysteria.

but they were not responsible for 9/11...yet you want other christians to join you

I said nothing about other Christians. Do you think everyone who died on that day was a Christian? Do you think every family that lost someone that day was a Christian family? It was only a plan.

I thought the activity might assuage some of the grief, frustration, and anger of the friends and families of the WTC victims. I wasn't asking for the opportunity to be extended to me.

You presented a plan. Yours involved the desecration of a certain sight, where a certain really bad thing happened to a lot of innocent people.

in an orgy of killing using all manner of weapons.., guns, bombs, knives, axes, etc. like so many of your grandchilderns do in those hideous video games these days.

You have a gift for hyperbole, Naseem. I said nothing about guns, knives, axes, etc. You are the one naming weapons, here. (note: I did say "bomb". I suggested your martyrs come without their bombs.)

Now we all know what you think Abscedere....and it ain't peaceful or pretty or smelling full of roses....

I've never striven to hide what I think. Unlike you, I am generally forthright, and I don't usually say things for the sake of inflaming the sensibilities of other people.

but still I say "peace be unto you"

Don't waste your hypocrisy on me.

Greetings to everyone on Jihad Watch.

I have used this website for about a month now trawling through the articles and posts and have came up to the conlcusion that the western media is doing it's job. Rarely do you ever see anything positive reported in the west's media when Islam is concerned. Now you will say Islam has nothing positive. But why is it you never hear about the Hajj when a million or more people from every race and background gather together.

Anything that shows Muslim unity or Islam with a positive image is a 'no-no'. Very few Western reporters offer you the stories after considering both sides of the story. When they do employ a neutral stance in their reporting they are heckled and dicredited. Take Robert Fisk for example. Who is a brilliant journalist and has won countless awards for his war reporting. His arguably the most neutral western journalist you will ever find. He was there when the coalition invaded Iraq. With the interviews and points he had gathered from both sides of the war; he wrote his stories, but it wasn't what the coalition wanted you to hear. From being a man who was universally renowned for his reporting he has turned into this controversial figure who cannot be trusted.
Al-Jazeera is another example. They gave the world the real stories of what was happening in Iraq. They showed the graphic nature of the war and were not biased in their reporting whether they dealt with civilians casulties or coalition. Becuase of this fact the coalition turned on them and labelled them as a terrorist organistion. They bombed their offices in Afghanistan; attacked them wherever their reporters happened to be and even imprisoned reporters as terrorists.
So with all the news stories you have listened to since 9/11, I really don't blame you for having this distorted view of Islam. If all you hear is negative stories how can you have anyother view other than a negative one?

You are made to believe Islam discriminates against woman. Islam is violent. Islam hates everything about the West and it's people and Islam is hell-bent on attacking infidels. This is blatant propaganda and is a very powerful tool because without it there is no way you would allow Bush to still be in Iraq.

All of these negative stories have made you believe: 'hell, these guys are crazy, we have to be in Iraq'.

Western people have something the rest of the world envies including me. It's you're open-mindedness, you're tolerance and im speaking of the majority, not all. It's this very thing about you that is been attacked and it's being done not by terrorists but by the people that you brought into power. They want to destroy these qaulities until nothing can make you believe otherwise.

As much you might not like to admit it, the people in power in your contry have forced you into a state of constant fear and apprehension. You are told: 'be alert there might be terrorist attack today'. Why? It's to scare you so you don't question the motives behind the 'war on terror'.

Without these well-structured stories, you would be protesting in you're millions to get the troops out of Iraq. That's anarchy; the Bush administration would never want that. Without these stories you would be asking yourselves in your millions: What are our troops dying for? If it's for the freedom of the Iraqi people fair enough you liberated them. So let them decide their own future. Don't install governments that they obviously haven't voted for and call it democracy because they are not stupid.

If it's to destroy terrorists who want to attack you then why are you in Iraq. There was no suicide bombers in Iraq before the invasion. There was no attacks on western soil by Iraqi's or Afghanis. Even 9/11 had nothing to do with them.

You're president lied to you; it's a proven fact. With that lie he constantly enforces it with these negative stories, so that one by one, he can rid the middle-east of any leaders who might endanger the country by... denying them that valuable 'black gold'; Oil.

It's got nothing to do with you're freedom or the freedom of the people in Iraq or Afghanistan.

So im not suprised you have this view of Islam because naturally you're going to assume that what these guys do must have something to do with their scripture. But if you look and take the time to read the Quran, you will realise that none of the things happening in today's world can be attributed to Islam. That includes these people who cut themselves on some fictional day called Ashura. Muslims aren't even allowed to weep and bellow in the funeral's of their loved ones, never mind cutting and beating themselves with chains.

That also includes suicide bombers, 9/11, female discrimination, oppressive rulers, honour killings, you name it. They have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. But then again it's not my role to condemn these people for their actions that is the role of our lord on the day of reckoning.

Now I must stress that this is not an attack on you personally. Only a reminder that you're media is censored to continue a war that will eventually spiral out of control. You have it in you to end this mindless killing which has no objective other than greed. Don't bring in another Bush by voting for these mad Republicans because they will only continue to stay in Iraq and destabilise the world.

I've lived in the west for most of my life. I see these problems first-hand. I have nothing against the western people because I know you want peace just as Muslims do. But you're enemies are not the muslims it is the very people who are there to speak for you. They are the terrorists who terrorise you to believe something which isn't true.
My message to you is: don't judge a book by it's cover. It's a western saying ironically. If the western media was fair, there would be no way, you would think of Islam the way you do now.

Peace

Allah Hafiz

Posted by: Naseem at January 20, 2008 5:07 PM

There is no "Allah," you duped-by-Mohammed Mohammedan. NO ALLAH! Do you get it?!

"Rarely do you ever see anything positive reported in the west's media when Islam is concerned." -- posted by thesaracen

There's many good reasons for that, saracen. Islam IS violent (see Koran) and Islam DOES discriminate against women -HELLO! EVERYONE IN THE WORLD KNOWS THAT SIMPLE FACT, saracen!

darcy-
wow, well you're exactly the type of person that I don't want to engage with. If you believe Allah doesn't exist, good for you. Islam is violent and it discriminates against woman, fair enough. That's you're oppinion and you're entitled to it. I only have time on here for the people who know exactly what my pervious post is about and are willing to discuss it.

hi everyone,
i am new to posting here, but have been a reader at this site for a couple years or more now.
keep up the good work Mr. Spencer, we need more people who will speak the truth about this so called religion of peace.

also, maybe they cover their heads from all the self inflicted mutilitions? just a thought.

Thesaracen,

Hi. On the subject of Iraq, I think that you'll find that just about everyone who visits JW on regular basis will certainly agree with you.

The media is extremely biased and opinionated, but there was coverage of the Hajj on several major news forums & newspapers. I can't recall exact names, but it was one them that reminded me that was happening.

P.S. I like your reformed style.

Thank you boneshack you're a person I have a great deal of time for my freind. You're also an honest man.

All I ask of you and Jihad watch regulars is to look at both sides of the story.

If Robert Spencer says mulims discriminate against woman by all means read what he has to say. But you will never be able to get a clear picture unless you look at the whole picture.

Spencer qoutes passages from the Quran, look at the Quran or google the exact passage! There are some words that you are skeptical of for example 'beating'.
But remember the Quran was only revealed in Arabic and its not so easy to translate into different languages- such is its use of language- which have different cultures and different meanings for words.

Find as much information as possible from both sides of the spectrum. Anything you may wish to discuss I will be more than happy to discuss as long as you're open-minded.

May god guide everyone on Jihad watch to the right path.

Thesaracen,

Thank you, and I'll say the same for you.

Although the picture associated with the article was negative, and certainly convey a negative image of Islam to non-muslims, that wasn't the point of the article.

So let's stay focused. Here's the crux of the story:

"The street battles between members of a messianic cult and Iraqi troops raged for a second day as the death toll from the fighting in two predominantly Shiite southern cities rose from 50 to at least 68."

This cult would be the "Twelvers", those who desire the return of the "Hidden Imam", correct?

68 people were killed. That is tragic. The article continues:

"There were conflicting accounts about how the clashes erupted, but all signs pointed to the radical Shiite group, which last year mounted a ferocious attack after Iraqi security forces raided its stronghold near the holy city of Najaf to foil an alleged plot to slaughter pilgrims and leading clerics during Ashoura."

We all know that Sunni Muslims don't have much love for Shia Muslims (okay, none), but maybe you might have a better understanding of why these types of stories "don't play well in Peoria."

What's your take on Hugh's commentary at 9.24am, above?

"BAGHDAD - Hundreds of thousands of frenzied Shiites beat their heads and chests in unison and whipped themselves with chains Saturday across Iraq to honor the martyrdom of one of their most revered saints. The processions were marred by violence with a deadly bombing in northern Iraq and clashes south of Baghdad."

Why would any good Shiite mind dying after all of that? Seems like the logical next step.

ISLAM: the cutting-edge religion.

(Styptic pencils sold seperately.)

Totally OT:

Hi All,

I just had to share my joyous news with my JW/DW friends, and that's that I'm going to be a first time grandmother! My daughter called this morning with the HAPPY news, so I had to share it with you as well (sorry that this is OT).

Wow - a grandmother - I am just bursting with joy!! :-)

Congradulations Champ!

Congratulations, Champ!

But remember the Quran was only revealed in Arabic and its not so easy to translate into different languages- such is its use of language- which have different cultures and different meanings for words.

As you wish, I'll be civil, but this is really old. You've got to know that 80% of the Ummah either is non-Arabic, doesn't know Arabic and even in the 20% that does, the understanding of Quranic Arabic is to them what most of us would experience with 16th century King James' English. Regardless, most of the problems outlined above - honor killings, jihadi activity, discrimination against Infidels, et al happen evenly wherever Muslims are in control, regardless of whether they know Arabic or not. In other words, the status of women is as wretched in Jordan or Saudi Arabia as it is in Pakistan. The plight of Christians in Indonesia is as pitiable as they are in Iraq or Egypt.

May god guide everyone on Jihad watch to the right path.

I'll post an article describing the Arabic language issue separately below. Go ahead and address it.
Please convince me that you are not calling for our conversion to Islam. Mohammed did the same for the rulers of Byzantium and Persia, and look what happened.

For thesaracen:

Champ,

That's wonderful! Congratulations!

Thank you, Mrockroll1969!

Thank you, Infidel Pride!

Thank you, Abscedere!

You guys are great, thanks again!

Infidel Pride,

A most excellent summary. Unfortunately, I don't think these points will be passed around on a memo to all the Imams who would certainly disagree with said points. Blinders are, well, blinders.

I guess I'd better learn Hebrew and Greek if I'm going to understand my own "Books".

Champ-- congratulations!

Hey, there's an idea... "Not a Dhimmi" bibs and onesies. Prob'ly not enough demand though, alas.

From thesaracen: I have used this website for about a month now trawling through the articles and posts...

You obviously need to spend additional time trawling because all your Muslim apologist talking points have already been thoroughly examined and debunked (or "defisked" in honor of your hero) at this website. And why don't you also study the meaning and use of the words; they're, their and there for your future posts, should "they're" be any.

Thanks, Marisol! Very clever idea about the bibs and diapers!

Marisol

For the diapers, have a crescent & star lining the insides. For the diapers, demand will be there - have you seen how many times they need to be changed?

boneshack

Guess I'll need to learn Sanskrit - never mind all the myriad versions of the Puranas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat and other books that I've read in their English translations. I must have them all wrong.

thesaracen

Any comments?

Infidel Pride,

Well, I'd guess we had better quit our day jobs and start learning!

I would suppose that I am double screwed because Hebrew and Greek are not based on the Latin alphabet. LOL!

"Now you will say Islam has nothing positive. But why is it you never hear about the Hajj when a million or more people from every race and background gather together."

A million people at the Hajj doesn't prove anything positive about Islam, any more than a million people at the Nuremburg rallies proves anything positive about the Nazis.

This sounds like the old "a billion people can't be wrong" argument employed by Muslims, as if it were evidence of Islam's devine orgins.

Numbers and fervor have never, and will never, prove anything positive about an ideology, religion, or movement. The NAZIS, Communist and Islam prove this.

"A tree is known by the fruit that it bears." If a society that is dominated by an ideology or religion is dysfunctional, oppressive, and denies its people the most basic human rights, it is the fruit of a diseased tree, and wherever Islam dominates, you find the same rotten fruit.

If people at this site don't have a great deal of positive things to say about Islam, it's because there's not much positive one can say about it. We leave it to the apologists to concoct positive things to say about Islam. As for me, give me reality or give me death.

My God, fellow, take a look at the Islamic world, and tell us that that there's enough positives that you would fell comfortable living in it.

IP,

Thesaracen is in the UK, and it is now 3.14a there.

He'll be back tomorrow.

Infidel Pride-- I wasn't talking diapers, but onesies, also known as creepers (here's an example).

Re-usable. Great for family gatherings.

Thesaracen, perhaps you could enlighten us on the positive aspects of islam. I'll just be damned if I can find any and believe me, I've been looking for over twenty years.

Your comments regarding the media's biased and negative coverage of islam and muslims are ludicrous and blatantly false. WEstern media bend over backwards to obfuscate the truth about islam. Newspapers, television, radio, magazines, and every other media outlet have two approaches to all matters islamic---sugary lies or the deliberate omission of pertinent facts that would portray islam and muslims in a bad light. This website is one of the few places on earth where people can get the facts about islam and learn what fanatical muslims are doing and saying. Since everything muslims do or say that is newsworthy happens to involve violence, hate, intolerance or terrorism, I suppose you would prefer that the media entirely ignore all muslim atrocities and just pretend they didn't happen. Muslims and islam are getting all the breaks they can expect and they should be grateful to the pusillanimous press for its profound devotion to and promotion of holy diversity, multiculturalism, and moral relativism. Objectivity, frankness, truth, and non-partiality are non-existent in today's news media.

Every issue you raised has been thoroughly debunked on this site. If you really think that we're a bunch of ignorant, indoctrinated disciples of Robert Spencer who have no knowledge of islam beyond this website and Mr. Spencer's books, you truly insult our intellect. How could you read the articles posted here every day and find our comments more disturbing than them?!

If you know any muslim altruists, philanthropists, or charitable tycoons who engage in generous and tolerant acts for the betterment of mankind, including non-muslims, please name them. If you know one muslim who does not consider himself superior to non-muslims and does not wish to impose islam and sharia on the world, please name him. If you know a single muslim humanitarian who reaches out to all people and not just muslims, please name him. Don't tell us that we have been misled about islam and that the qur'an cannot be translated----WE ARE NOT MORONS.

Ha Ha, Marisol! I thought you were talking about diapers - guess I'm a little rusty :-)

Dear Susanp: Hear, hear. That post was right on target. Read about sharia creep in Canada at the top of www.darrellepp.com

Now that's funny. Ole Naseem drops her bomb...kicks back for a while and returns to peruse the responses until she finds one that she can attempt to manipulate. A good thing I didn't post first as I would have been her target for sure. All I could think when I read her proposal was, "how obscene."

First... I know that there are devoted Muslims out there in the world that are trying to take their religion back from the dark ages it is slipping in to at the hands of the Taliban and the like. I know full well that not every Muslim out there is out to kill me or force me to submit. Okay? It's the ones that hack little school girls up because they are not Muslim that I have a hard time with and would very much like to see dead.

The significance of such a procession is not lost on me. I see it for the celebration the radical Muslim worldwide would see it for. That you would see it for. We would not stand for that any more than having that walking virus, Ahmadinejad visit the site.

I am not fooled in the least by your or others seemingly reasonable postings defending Islam. Particularly you Naseem, when you sound so reasonable at first...then seize upon one response, twist it to suit you, embellish upon it, filling it with your imagined weapons and spew vitriol in your response as a defense of your supposedly wounded Muslim soul.

Hell Naseem...I think if you ask you'll find that the vast majority of the posters here are not "good Christians." And most certainly except for a few nutcakes that I've seen from time to time, no one here wants to slaughter innocent people period.

The hatred you have for us is evident every time you post. Your contempt is equally evident in your lectures to us poor unenlightened ones and the insulting tone of your posts. This would seem to be your standard operating procedure. And by the way...I don't hate you at all...I pity you. I see someone that desperately wants to believe that what they've been told to believe is true. Why else would you return here to try and convince us? We are clearly not worth your time otherwise.

I believe I qualify as an agnostic but I will gladly defend anyones religion against the tyranny of Islam. I believe that you will find that the majority of the Jihadwatch crowd here are more concerned with remaining free to make their own choices in life rather than being overly concerned with serving any particular God.

If so many of your brothers and sisters weren't going around killing Buddhist Monks and members of every other religion on the planet because they aren't Muslims, I might find some value in your words of peace. I know them for what they are. Deceit. Deception. War.
Your own Holy book tells you when to lie and how. I have some simple questions for any Muslim poster here.
Do you want to see Sharia law replace the Constitution?
Do you want Sharia law to replace the present courts?
If so then you are my enemy. You cannot take my freedom from me with slick arguments and persuasive words if you can't answer "NO" to those two questions. Get it? The only time I will submit, is when I submit to death.
Is this so difficult a concept to grasp? That I would rather die free than submit? I guess if you grow up as a slave in any setting, it's difficult to see freedom for what it is. Poor Naseem. To reject freedom so vigorously...what has been done to her?

Has anyone seen this? Britain is doomed unless they wake up. Naseem may soon have cause to rejoice.
"We want to offer sharia law to Britain" It all sounds so reasonable, until the first hand is cut off, or the first stoning occurs. So reasonable...Political Correctness will end our freedom unless we end Political Correctness.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/01/20/nsharia_120.xml&CMP=ILC-mostviewedbox

Champ-

All the best with the diminutive newcomer!

(Although their lungpower is anything but.)

Teach them that the stars are a time machine in the skies every night, and to keep dreaming of the future, and they'll be as good as their Grandmom.

Thanks, Profitsbeard! That was such a sweet thing to say. You always have a way with words! :-)

Hugs to you and All!

For thesaracen:

There is no evidence that Arabic, or Classical Arabic, is especially difficult for translators to translate, compared to other languages. In fact it has been translated successfully.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 20, 2008 9:29 PM

Incidentally, general historical info for all about the Saracens.

Let's take TheSaracen's arguments seriously, if he starts taking us seriously.

Who knows! Maybe he'll become the next Muslim who gets it.

Shy Guy,

Please review this thread, especially the last 30 or so posts. You'll begin to understand 'Thesaracen' and his thinking, in addition to his posts previously on this thread.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019615.php#comments

Oh. Sorry. Lost cause. Wasted typing.

Shy Guy,

I'm not trying to pick a fight here. I'm sorry.

Boneshack, I didn't think you were. :) I took your advice, read his prior posts and drawed conclusions.

Assalauam Laikum Champ,

As my Kafur sister let me congratulate you on the addition to your immediate family.

You did not say whether it was a boy or girl...but never mind.

I will buy a little candy from the local halvie here and offer it to neighbors as a celebration of a child to my adopted sister's family.

I will offer dua to Allah SWT on behalf of the little one for his/her health and well being.

I only ask that you please teach the little one in the way of Islam too... parents pollute...and the opportunity to teach them about the lord is lost...you will not want to be disappointed.

Many congratulations once again

Allah Hafiz

Congratulations Champ.
Pay no attention to attention grabber Naseem.
You're not her 'sister' and she does not wish you well...

My message to you is: don't judge a book by it's cover. It's a western saying ironically. If the western media was fair, there would be no way, you would think of Islam the way you do now.
Peace
Posted by: thesaracen

I read your book. Fairness is not required, only truth. Your book has little of that...

"But why is it you never hear about the Hajj when a million or more people from every race and background gather together. "
Posted by: thesaracen

...because that statement is not true....When one goes to the Hajj he will not see Jews, Christians, Hindus, Budditst, Seventh Day Aventists, Mormons, Zororastians, Assyrians, or any other NonMuslims....they are unwelcome and could be killed if they arrived to pray for peace as the Muslims do.....oooops my bad, that is not what the Muslims pray for....

Ban Muslim immigration...

"...but all signs pointed to the radical Shiite group, which last year mounted a ferocious attack after Iraqi security forces raided its stronghold near the holy city of Najaf to foil an alleged plot to slaughter pilgrims and leading clerics during Ashoura.,,,,"

....would this mark the return of AL-Sadrs group to the limelight....

Muslims slaughtering Muslims on a prayer Pilgramage.....I guess there is no right way to pray in Islam....

7th century buffoons...one and all...

Ban Muslim immigration...

Impossible to translate the Kuran?

Not true!

There exists a very good translation by one Adolf Hitler. The title is Mein Kampf.

Admittedly, this is not a literal translation, but what is important is not the letter but spirit. And Mein Kampf catches and conveys the spirit of Kuran most faithfully.

It is as stupid, vulgar, hateful and BORING as the original.

Thanks, duh_swami!

Naseem -

I stated that I'm "going" to be a grandma, so that means my grandbaby hasn't been born yet; and it's too early to tell whether they're having a precious boy or a sweet little girl.

"I only ask that you please teach the little one in the way of Islam too... parents pollute...and the opportunity to teach them about the lord is lost...you will not want to be disappointed"....from Naseem.

Islam is evil and headed for a fall, so why would I want my grandchild, or anyone for that matter, to board a train that's destined to crash & burn? A train that's driven by Mad-Men chasing after a false god with false promises.

Plus, I'm strongly against child abuse, so that makes two significant reasons why I will never speak favorably about Islam. No child should be exposed to it's evil agenda. No thanks!

...Islamic version of the "chain gang"...

That's the sound of the men working on the chain gang
That's the sound of the men working on the chain gang
All day long they work so hard till the sun is goin' down
Working on the highways and byways and wearin', wearin' a frown
Hear them moanin' their lives away
Then you hear somebody say
That's the sound of the men working on the chain gang
That's the sound of the men working on the chain gang

HA HA HA, exsgtbrown - that's hilarious!

boneshack- sorry about the delay to your question as you quite rightly pointed out it was very late indeed.
To answer your question, if your asking me about Shi'a Islam I can only give you my basic
knowledge.

Shia Islam came about purely from Shi'as not accepting the Caliphate after the death of the Prophet pbuh. They reject the caliphate all together and say that Abu bakr as-Sadiq forcefully took the succession away from Ali. If you have ever read any book on the companions of the Prophet pbuh, you will quickly realise that they were no ordinary men. They were people of piety and devotion to Islam that were an exmaple to all muslims; at the time and until the end of time. Some of them gave up fame, fortune, comfort, everything in the worship of one god, and were persecuted relentlessly for it.

There is one question I would love to ask a Shi'a and I think he would have problems answering. Prophet Muhammed pbuh was a man of exquisite character and wisdom. He was chosen by god to teach and spread Islam. Do they then not think that the Prophet pbuh would have not chosen a successor before he left this world?
If for the sake of argument what Shi'as say is true where would Islam have been after the death of the Prophet pbuh? Allah swt in his infinite knowledge and wisdom knows the future and would have reminded Muhammed pbuh had he not chosen a successor.

Regrading Hugh's post, I don't know who Muhammad Al-Mahdi is nor do I believe he is in occultation. Sunni muslims believe a mahdi will appear at the end of time to fight the anti-christ. But my knowledge of this topic is very vague and I hope soon that Allah swt may guide me to knowledge on the matter.
The majority of Shia's are 'twelvers' meaning they believe in twelve imams. Starting with the son in law of the Prophet pbuh Ali ibn abi talib and ending with the twelfth imam Muhammed al-mahdi.

There are many other differences but the ones I have just mentioned are the well-known diferences.

Although I don't think I have convered everything as fully as I can, I hope it is enoug to answer your question boneshack. Like I said anything you wish to discuss with me feel free to do so.

Thesaracen,

Thanks. I was under the impression that Muhammed did not, indeed, name a successor.

Nonetheless, my point still remains that there sure is whole lot of senseless slaughter over the mere point of who succeeded whom. And by all accounts, this slaughter is a two-way street (between Sunnis and Shi'ites.)

You come across as a tolerant, peaceful, and rational person. It's quite easy for us to draw the connections (i.e., connect the dots) when put in perspect of the Koran.

So you'll have to bear with us or wariness of Islam when there sure is much "kill kill kill behead slaughter Hell-fire pigs and apes smite kill kill kill" the non-believers.

From a Christian or Jewish or Hindu point of view, the non-believers are us! And I can't begin to count how many times your "learned" Imams, leaders, and fellow believers affirm this belief.

And to think that Saddam suppressed this barbaric behavior...

Assalamau Laikum Saracen,

I assuem you are a sunni, I am Ahmadi from Lahore.

As you can see I am not shia, but slightly cut and bleeding heads, mensfolk "chaining and caning" themselves while marching may not be high on your list of attractions to see...never the less it is a surreal and facinating sight....at least once in a lifetime.

It opens your eyes (for some in more ways than one) to the faith and power that lies within Islam ...despite some of the petty differences.

You will see no such power within Christianity.

You will see no such power within Christianity.

Posted by: Naseem at January 21, 2008 5:02 PM

Many years ago, before I caught on what Islam was, I had seen posts by a Muslim on a forum boasting of Islam's power and domination. A lust for it, is how I would describe this person's postings.

I'm sure someone can name the sci-fi books/movies where the evil entity in the story became more evil by accumulating more brute physical strength and power, gloating over it as if it was creation's purpose.

champ-I am a muslim born and raised. I've never been abused. Never seen it happen to any of my brothers and sisters or any of my muslim freinds whether they are male or female. Islam is not evil if it was a lot of muslims would not be muslims. There are issues such as Jihad which make it seem evil to you but thats you're culture thats you're upbringing and beliefs. If Islam is evil in you're eyes why not study it and find out whether this is true. As for it heading for a fall I disagree neither will it crash & burn because that would have had happened already.

God has given you free will to decide how you wish to lead you're life. If you wish to worship him and be grateful and spare yourself then I believe you embrace Islam. But you are free to make you're own choices and you're held accountable for them.
May god guide you.

Some of you have been confused by what I said regarding the translation of the Quran in an earlier post. I never said it was impossible or that you needed to be a scholar or versed in Arabic to fully understand it. What I meant is Arabic is a different language to English or French or Spanish etc. The Arabic definition of some words are far different to the foreign definition of the same word. Therefore interpreting the Quran in foreign languages is not easy.
Actually knowledge of Arabic is essential, otherwise you would not be reading the Quran. You'd be reading a translation of the Quran but not the actual Quran.

It is not a sin in Islam to pick up a bible or a torah and read it, gaining knowledge, far from it. Therefore if you want your questions answered in the best possible way; pick up a Quran and read through it.

exsgtbrown- simple answer to your point. You won't see any Jews or Christians or Hindu's in the Hajj because they are not Muslim and they wouldn't go anyway. If you were to see a jew or a christian there then he/she would be a Muslim. In the same way you don't see a muslim in a church or a synagogue.

Im a muslim who can reason with you and on the contrary I do take you seriously but by not discussing issues without having to resort to derogratory claims about Islam, I can only assume you are not taking me seriously.

Someone has even drawn comparisons between Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Quran. I can't remember Hitler ever qouting anything from the Quran, it was infact the bible he used to justify the slaughter of the Jews. But im not drawing comparisons between the bible and his book.

I read your book. Fairness is not required, only truth. Your book has little of that...
Then you obviously haven't read it.

There's a famous video called the 'misconceptions of Islam' by Dr Zakir Naik. Now before you discredit this man, I urge you to view this video. He answers all the misconceptions you hear and read about on this website and so on. If you don't believe what he says then go to the surahs he mentions and you will find you're answer. The video's on youtube consists of 24 parts and are very informative. Use this opportunity to find out the real truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG00Zw-FvkA

Alaykum wa salam Naseem. Look brother you can't talk they way you are doing now. If you want to give Dawah do it in a manner that doesn't look arrogant or spiteful. People will be more willing to listen and read what you have to say.
May Allah Guide you.

Peace

Thanks. I was under the impression that Muhammed did not, indeed, name a successor.

You are indeed correct Prophet Muhammed pbuh did not directly name his successor but he did indicate it would be Abu Bakr. Regardless of whether or not Prophet Muhammed pbuh named Abu Bakr it was accepted by the muslims at the time that Abu Bakr would be the caliph. In no part of Islamic history is there any indication that Abu Bakr usurped the caliphate from Ali ibn abi talib the Prophets pbuh son-in-law. If that was the case the Prophet would never have included Abu Bakr as one of the ten companions (Sahaba) promised paradise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q_Nu1XVWDY&feature=related
part 8/24 of the misconceptions of Islam I guarentee you will be intrigued.

Hi thesaracen -

You stated: "There are issues such as Jihad which make it seem evil to you but thats you're culture thats you're upbringing and beliefs."

I'm glad you brought the point about Jihad up, because you cannnot separate Jihad from Islam, nor can you separate Islam from Jihad.

I strongly disagree with your second point. Jihad doesn't "seem" evil, it IS evil, because of what I have seen done in the name of allah; and what I have seen has nothing to do with my culture, upbringing or my beliefs. It has more to do with 9/11, and an exhaustive list of other such acts of terrorism.

How can you minimize this evil so casually? I don't understand how you can overlook this glaring problem of terrorism. Your comment downplays the evil behind Jihad.

Please tell me what you think of 9/11, and other such attacks? Were those who committed this horrible crime Muslim? Or were they members of some other religion?

Regards,
Champ

Assalamau Laikum saracen,

I am not a brother....but a sister...many peoples get it wrong ...but I cannot help that.
I am Naseemah...shortened to Naseem because my Abu & Ami so wanted a boy...instead they got me...but from an early age they both called me Naseem ...and the name has stuck.

I must admit when I first cam to this site I too was extremely polite, amiable and friendly to the kaffur.

But brother I have been worn down over the years by constant accusations of Muhd pbuh being a paedophile, muslims being savages, muslimas wearing "black tents" and how muslims should be sent back home and muslim immigration should be banned.

I have been the only muslima who has stayed the course here...and yes I have been hardened by the verbal beatings...so I satand up and be counted....but please note that I have NEVER advocted or supported violence....I have asked many of the peoples here to covert...my instinct is that I have been favourable on some...but those who have converted through my dawa efforts have stopped commenting on this site.

I believe that Islam will be the religion of global choice soon and that for world peace we all need to adopt sharia lite.

This law has tenents of sharia....mixed in with democracy...so that kafffur too feel that Allah SWT has showered his mercy upon them.

Despite even giving Champ an honarary title of becoming my kafur sister...she has always given me the cold shoulder and abused my religion of Islam....I ask you ...is there a need for this?

Why can't she just accept my proposal...and look into Islam and possibly convert too...it's for her own good that I say this....currently she has ignored my dawa...but I feel eventually she will become my muslima sister....that is why I am not abondoning her here.

saracen

Quit telling us about the ineffable intranslateableness of the Quran. It's nonsense. All languages can be translated. Arabic is an ordinary human language like every other human language. Arabic can be translated. The Quran can be - and has been- translated, and millions of pious non-Arab Muslims use them every day, all over the world.

I have read the Quran, slowly and carefully, more than once.

And having read it, I reject it utterly, every last mad, arrogant, hateful, spiteful, ugly and bizarre sentence of it. (Furthermore, everything I have learned of the Hadith and the Sira has convinced me that they are even worse than the Quran),

I know - because Robert Spencer, who speaks Arabic fluently, has told me - that the original Arabic poetry of the Quran *sounds* very pretty. But poison may be served in a jewelled cup; it may be mixed with delicious syrup; but that doesn't stop it from killing you.

Strip away the rhymes and the rhythms, and what you are left with, in a translation of the Quran, is the naked meaning, bare and unadorned. That is: the poison. No sweet syrup, no jewelled cup, just...poison.

I reject the Quran because I know something much, much better. I am steeped in the Bible: the Hebrew Scriptures (or 'Old Testament') and the Greek, Christian scriptures (or 'New Testament').

When I compare the Quran with the Bible, I see that the Quran is chaotic, violent and dull, whereas the Bible is orderly, peaceful and full of interest.

The Quran is death, darkness, and fear, destroying the soul; the Bible is life, and light, and love, bread and wine for the soul.

'saracen': you are sitting in a dark dungeon and calling it a palace. You are eating poisonous toadstools and calling them food.

And though you are trying to speak sweetly here, I know that you are taught by Islam to despise me in your heart; that the Quran forbids you to befriend me (who am a Christian, and a lover of Israel and of the Jews); that it instructs you to try to trick me into Islam and, if I refuse, to kill me, or to enslave me, if ever you acquire the power to do so.

You and 'Naseem' want me to abandon my loving, gracious, gentle and humble Lord Yeshua, into whose scarred carpenter's hands - the hands of a Jewish teacher and healer, which I confess also to be the all-creating, life-giving hands of the true Master of the Universe, YHWH - I have placed my life and my death; and you want me to follow, instead, a murderous, lying, thieving, raping, pedophile and imperialist warlord named Muhammad. You really think I would do something so wicked and stupid?

Lan astaslem.

Here, now, to make it quite, quite plain, that I will never stop loving and worshipping my Lord Yeshua/ Jesus, is the English paraphrase of one of the loveliest, and oldest, Christian hymns, the Phos hilaron.

"O laughing light, O firstborn of Creation:
radiance of glory, light from light begotten,
God self-revealing, holy bright and blessed
you shine upon us.
Day's light is fragile, your light is eternal
we look to you, our light within the shadow;
we sing to you, Creator, Christ, and Spirit
you shine before us.
Light of the world, O Jesus you are worthy
Giver of life and Son of God, we praise you
Hear as the universe now proclaims your glory
You shine among us".

From above: read your book. Fairness is not required, only truth. Your book has little of that...

Reply: Then you obviously haven't read it.

How much would you like to bet on that? Got some big bucks? I like a sure winner. Islam is not that...a sure winner that is...but you keep on trying, I like your supremist attitude and your attempts a taqiyya.
Your history lesson is already known here in detail, but that's ok, I like Islamic history, almost as much as I enjoy taqiyya. I think I read something about Fatima, Mohammads daughter asking Abu Bakr for part of Mohammads estate as an inheritance, Bakr apparently said something to the effect of, not only no, but hell no. You can imagine how this did not sit well with Fatima or Ali. It ticked them off so much that when Fatima died, he buried her without telling Abu Bakr. As Aiesha held the dying, or maybe already dead, Prophet in her arms, Ali showed up and proclaimed himself Caliph, she said that Mohammad had never said that to her. Bakr grabbed the power and Ali went to sulk. There were numerous things, apparently, that culminated in the Sunni/Shia split then, and later. Reaffirmed by centuries of hate and distrust.
I may not have told this story perfectly, but it is close enough for government work...Happy taqiyya monday...

Naseem -

I am more a sister to 'dumbledoresarmy' than to you, because I agree word for word with everything she just stated.

No amount of calling me your kafur sister is ever going to change that. I don't want to sound cold, but I am trying to be honest, and as I've stated repeatedly to you in the past, I will NEVER convert to Islam, because my heart, mind and soul belong to Jesus Christ. He paid for my sins with His blood, and I've accepted His gift of redemption from my sins for myself, so there's no turning back - and I don't WANT to turn back!!!

Don't take my rejection of Islam personally. I am not rejecting you, but I am rejecting whom I know to be a false god and a false prophet; and no amount of "niceness" or "kindness" on your part will ever change the way I feel or sway me towards converting to Islam.

And if you ever do decide to speak kindly towards me, for the sole purpose of winning me over to Islam, than don't waste your breath, because that is never going to happen.

The problem is not YOU - the problem is Islam.

Jesus Christ is my Lord, and Jehovah God my God; so allah has no place in my life or in my heart. Period.

I wish the same for you, that you would embrace the One True God - and flee the empty void known as Islam - I also hope and pray the same for thesaracen.

duh_swami- May I ask where you read this chapter in Islamic History? I would like to check for myself.
Im still not convinced you have read the Quran but I won't bet on it. However tommorow we'll see how well you know the Quran.
Peace

dumbledoresarmy- Until you answer my question from that post which you and I know both know full well, I won't discuss anything with you especially when you're rhetoric is full of hate. If you hate Islam so be it but no-one is trying to convert you. Im only informing you of true Islam giving you dawah as its the obligation of every muslim.
peace to you aswell.

champ- 9/11 was an awful event. There's no way any muslim can look back on it and say it was anything but. The fact that innocent civilians were the target and the victims makes it even more tragic.
Now i've just been accused of trying to sweet-talk people but let me assure I will not hold my punches when truth is at stake. What benefit would it do for me to lie to you and give you a dumb-down version of Islam. I'll give you the truth if you wish to hear it then keep reading.
Now the question is 9/11- I still am not convinced muslims were the culprits, but you already knew I would say that judging by the way you posed the question.

There are far too many discrepancies and loose-ends. Where is the prove that muslims did it? If the hijackers were the same ones whose mugshots were released by the authorities in the US how come some of them are turning up alive in countries like Egypt and you can find these reports, just google it. The Authorities say Bin Laden did it. seven years later he still hasn't been charged with 9/11, you know why? Because they haven't got enough evidence!! But wasn't the war waged in Afghanistan because of the culprits of 9/11?

Why did Bush once say about Bin Laden ' I don't know where he is.. (he stumbles).. he's not a priority to me!!! This is the same man he once convinced the world killed 3,000+ of your citizens and now he's not a priority to you!
In a little known interview Bin Laden denied having any involvement in 9/11, he even went as far as to say I have no animousity or the intention to harm american civilians, a week or so later a very unconvincing video turns up conveniently in a house in one of Afghanistan biggest cities. A video lampooned from Berlin to Beirut as being suspicious at best.

It just does not add up. Throw on top of that a bunch of Isreali 'students' who were spotted jumping with joy as the towers fell. I will never accept muslims were to blame for 9/11.

champ Jihad is not evil not at all. It seems evil because in today's world I have to admit many do not know what legitimate Jihad is. To stop oppression of your religion, your home, your people or others against opressors. Now does that sound evil?

boneshack I will answer you're question asap.
Take care

thesaracen

I responded to your claim about the Arabic translation issue. Can you go to Hugh's thread about it today, and respond to me there?

Thesaracen,

I think you did answer my single question, at 4.09p.

Are you thinking of something else?

Anyhoo, I don't want to stray off-topic here, but I must insist, Sir, that your views of the tragic events of September 11, 2001, go well into the realm of "conspiracy theory."

And these quick points:

- Bush is a boob. We acknowledge this.
- We invaded Afghanistan to get Bin Laden. If not dead already, he's living like an animal in the mountains of Tora Bora. Or being sheltered in Egypt? Or Iran? As for his pious denial of complicity the week after said event, he did later admit to it.
-Israeli students: You are aware that there is a rather significant number of "Arabs" with Israeli citizenship?

I'm left to conclude that, by your analysis, the 19 "persons" who hijacked those four airplanes could only have Martians.

For the record, I am a pilot, and I take this issue very, very seriously.
--------------------------------------------------
Back to the topic at hand:

I found your mild rebuke of Naseem rather humorous.

Okay. I'll be quiet now.

Damn this bum left arm...

I'm left to conclude that, by your analysis, the 19 "persons" who hijacked those four airplanes could only have been Martians.

LOL!

'saracen' wrote:
"You are made to believe Islam discriminates against women. Islam is violent. Islam hates everything about the West and its people and Islam is hell-bent on attacking infidels. This is blatant propaganda" (i.e. 'saracen' tells us all these negative things are lies).

I wonder how 'saracen' will explain away Tawfiq Hamid, then.

Here is what Hamid says about himself and his fellow Salafis (revivalist Muslims), during the Soviet-Afghan war:

"We viewed both the Soviets and the Americans as enemies. The Soviets were considered infidels because they did not believe in the existence of God, while the Americans did not follow Islam.

"Although we planned to fight the Soviets first, our ultimate objective was to destroy the United States - the greatest symbol of the infidel's freedom.

"My personal dream was to be an Islamic warrior, to kill the enemies of Islam, to smite their necks in accordance with the Koranic verse that read, "When ye meet the unbelievers smite at their necks" (Koran 47:4)."

And even before that, Hamid's exposure to Islam and Muslim writings in high school had pushed him toward hostility against non-Muslims:

"I remember one particularly defining moment in an Arabic language class when I was sitting beside a Christian friend named Nagi Anton.

"I was reading a book entitled 'Alshaykhan' by Taha Hussein that cited the Prophet Muhammad's words: "I have been ordered by Allah to fight and kill all people [non-Muslims] until they say, 'No God except Allah.'" Following the reading of this Hadith, I decisively turned toward Nagi and said to him, "If we are to apply Islam correctly, we should apply this Hadith to you."

"At that moment I suddenly started to view Nagi as an enemy rather than as a longtime friend.

"What further hardened my attitude on this matter was the advice I received from many dedicated Muslim fellow students, who warned me against befriending Christians.

"They based their counsel on the following verse: "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them [for friendship] is of them [an infidel]. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust" (Koran 5:51).

"In view of this verse and the previous one, I felt obliged as a Muslim to limit my relationships with my Christian friends.

"The love and friendship I once felt for them had been transformed into disrespect, *merely because I wished to obey the commandments of my religion* [my emphasis added]. The seductive ideas of my religious studies had diluted the influence of my secular upbringing. By restricting my contact with Christians, I felt that I was doing a great deed to satisfy Allah."

More on violence:
"Jihad against non-Muslims seemed to me to be a win-win situation. The following verse, commonly cited by Jamaah members, validated my duty to die for Allah: "Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them [in return] is the garden [of paradise]. They fight in Allah's cause, and they slay and are slain; they kill and are killed... it [paradise] is the promise of Allah to them" (Koran 9:111).

"I passed through three psychological stages to reach this level of comfort with death: hatred of non-Muslims or dissenting Muslims, suppression of my conscience and acceptance of violence in the service of Allah. Salafi [i.e. Muslim revivalist/ purist] religious indoctrination played a major role in this process. Salafists promoted our hatred for non-Muslims by emphasizing the Koranic verse that read, "Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the last day loving those who resist [i.e. do not follow] Allah and His messenger" (Koran 58:22)."

And here is Hamid's account of the first time he heard Zawahiri speaking:
"At one afternoon prayer session, an imam I had never met before gave a sermon. He was one of the fiercest speakers I had ever heard.
"His passion for jihad was astonishing. He advocated complete Islamic dominance, urging us to pursue jihad against non-Muslims and subdue them to Shari'a - the duty of every true Muslim.
"His rhetoric inspired us to engage in war against the infidels, the enemies of Allah.
"He particularly condemned the West for the freedom of its women. He hated the fact that Western women were permitted to wear what they pleased, to work and to have the same opportunities as men.
"He dreamt of forcing the West to conform to a Taliban-style system in which women were obliged to wear the Islamic hijab, were legally beaten by men to discipline them and were stoned to death for extramarital sex."

So - it is clear that Tawfiq Hamid did not acquire certain attitudes, teachings and practices (hatred of the West, exaltation of Jihad, rejection of and contempt for non-Muslims and the desire to fight, subjugate or kill them, and violence toward women) from reading western newspapers and books, or from watching western television.

Hamid learned these attitudes, teachings and practices from Arabic Muslim texts, from his Muslim peers at high school who quoted the Quran, from fellow members of Jamaah Islamiya also quoting the Quran, and from the preaching, in the mosques, of people like Ayman al-Zawahiri.

DDA,

Wow! That was completely awesome! Thanks.

"champ Jihad is not evil not at all. It seems evil because in today's world I have to admit many do not know what legitimate Jihad is."

If you believe this is true, then why are you brokering change on Jihad Watch from those who are fed up with the evil terrorist actions committed by Muslims who "do not know what legitimate Jihad is"? Why aren't you confronting your fellow Muslim brother's and sister's instead?

"exsgtbrown- simple answer to your point. You won't see any Jews or Christians or Hindu's in the Hajj because they are not Muslim and they wouldn't go anyway. If you were to see a jew or a christian there then he/she would be a Muslim. In the same way you don't see a muslim in a church or a synagogue.

Posted by: thesaracen "

"because they are not Muslim"...they your statement given cannot be true, you said:

"..... why is it you never hear about the Hajj when a million or more people from every race and background gather together."

...every race and background would have to include Jews, Christians, Hindus and others ....the truth is that , as you indicate, only Muslims are invited....that make the Hajj a discriminatory event....as Islam is a intolerant and discriminatory "religion"...

The Hajj has a history of being a violent event and an event that has triggered violence elsewhere:

Because of the history of violence during the Hajj -- some of it extreme -- Saudi officials step up security during the period, and last week they concluded what they called the country's largest-ever anti-terrorism security sweep -- an operation that resulted in the arrest of more than 200 suspected al Qaeda militants. Riyadh said the operation was intended as a warning to militants who would seek to abuse the event and disturb the pilgrims. Because of past debacles during the Hajj, the Saudi government nowadays can be expected to deal with any militant activity quickly and harshly.

The Hajj brings Muslims from all the branches of Islam together in one city -- a city controlled by the Saudi government, which rigorously follows the conservative and strict interpretation of the Wahhabi branch of the Hanbali School of Islamic jurisprudence. Sometimes this mixture makes for volatile confrontations, such as during the 1987 Hajj, when Saudi forces took action to suppress an anti-U.S. demonstration by Iranian pilgrims. The resulting confrontation between the security forces and protesters left more than 400 pilgrims dead and hundreds wounded. Following the incident, the Saudi government severely limited the number of Iranians allowed to attend the Hajj. Two bombings during the 1989 Hajj are believed to have been carried out in reaction to this anti-Iranian policy, and the Saudi government executed 16 Kuwaiti Shia found responsible for the attacks.

Perhaps the most dramatic incident related to the Hajj occurred Nov.
20, 1979, when, shortly after the end of the Hajj, hundreds of heavily armed militants led by Juhaiman al-Utaibi seized control of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, taking several hundred lingering pilgrims hostage. Al-Utaibi, a former officer in the Saudi Arabian National Guard, condemned the Saudi government as corrupt and said that his brother-in-law, Mohammed al-Qahtani, was the Mehdi, the long-awaited redeemer of Islam foretold in Islamic holy writings. The mosque's seizure led to a two-week siege that resulted in the death of hundreds of pilgrims and militants, though the actual number of casualties is unknown, given Riyadh's reluctance to reveal details of the embarrassing event. In addition to the casualties inside the mosque, reports suggest that some 127 military personnel were killed and more than 400 wounded in the operation. The militants who survived the siege were tried and executed by the Saudi government.

The violence in Mecca that year had widespread repercussions. Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini blamed the United States for the seizure of the mosque and, on Nov. 21, 1979, the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad was burned to the ground by an angry mob. On Dec. 2 of that year, the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli, Libya, was attacked and burned, resulting in the withdrawal of all U.S. government officials from the country until 2004.

Due to the sheer number of people involved in Hajj activities, many mishaps also have occurred over the years, including people being trampled, accidentally pushed off overpasses and killed in accidents involving cooking fires. During that last Hajj, 345 people were killed in a stampede during the ceremonial "stoning of the devil" and 76 people died when a hostel in Mecca collapsed in a narrow street. During the 1987 Hajj, 340 people were killed in the tent city in Mina when a cooking fire got out of control and raged through the crowded tents.

Although the Saudi government focused on the militant element during its recent security sweep, it would be a huge public relations risk for al Qaeda or other jihadist groups to use the Hajj as an occasion to conduct violent actions, given that the Muslim public would take a dim view of the disturbance of such an important ritual. Indeed, most of the past disturbances and violence during the Hajj have been instigated by Shiite actors, who operate from a different calculus. Even al-Utaibi waited until after the Hajj had officially ended to seize the Grand Mosque.

The Hajj, however, offers a number of unprecedented opportunities for militants to conduct a range of nonviolent activities.

The Saudi government requires special visas for people who wish to participate in the Hajj and attempts to screen out militants and other potential troublemakers. These efforts, however, are plagued by the same problems that afflict the screening systems of other governments, such as translation issues, problems in intelligence-sharing and document and identity fraud. In addition, it is difficult to verify the identity of an individual from an area that keeps no official records, or where records have been destroyed during war. For example, it is next to impossible to determine the true identity of an Iraqi, Palestinian, Somalian or Afghan tribesman, yet thousands of pilgrims have been granted visas to travel to Saudi Arabia from these locations.

This problem of vetting applicants also is significant in cases in which the government issuing identification documents might also have militant ties, such as Iran and the Hamas-controlled Palestinian authority in the Gaza Strip. Hamas representatives have told the media that they smuggled 2,200 passports out of Gaza via a tunnel this year, and that the passports were taken to the Saudi Embassy in Cairo, Egypt, for Hajj visas. The flood of visas issued by Riyadh as a result of this smuggling operation prompted the Egyptian government to open its border with Gaza on Dec. 3. The border had been sealed since Hamas seized control of Gaza in June, meaning travelers going from Gaza to Egypt had to pass through Israeli territory -- under the watchful eyes of Israeli officials. The opening of the border for the Hajj presents an unprecedented opportunity for Hamas to get operatives in and out of Gaza free from Israeli scrutiny.

Once pilgrims arrive in Saudi Arabia, the Saudi government carefully controls their travel and, because of past events, makes special efforts to monitor those from places such as Iran. However, the sheer volume of people attending the Hajj makes it physically impossible to closely monitor the activities of the vast majority of the pilgrims. Furthermore, due to the closed nature of Saudi society and the fact that non-Muslims are forbidden to enter Mecca, it will be very difficult for intelligence and security officers from other countries to follow terrorism suspects to the Hajj or to monitor their activities once they are in Mecca.

This means that in addition to viewing the Hajj as a potential opportunity to stage attacks, militant operatives also can use the vast crowds as an ideal setting to conduct meetings or pass documents or messages via courier. For an organization such as al Qaeda, the pilgrimage to Mecca is an opportunity for representatives from all of its regional and affiliated groups to meet -- with very little chance of being monitored. Such a feat would be difficult at any other time and place.

The importance of meetings during the Hajj season has been highlighted in several biographies of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, including one on the PBS Frontline Web site. According to that biography, which purportedly was authored by an anonymous source close to bin Laden, the wealthy bin Laden family hosted hundreds of foreign pilgrims at their many homes during the Hajj season. The pilgrims who stayed in the bin Laden family homes while Osama was growing up reportedly included prominent Muslim politicians, jurists, theologians and militant leaders -- individuals who appear to have had a profound influence on the emerging world view of the young bin Laden.

Obviously, al Qaeda is not the only militant group that could take advantage of the Hajj gathering to meet. A group such as Hamas that has been largely isolated from the outside world also could use the Hajj as a chance to meet with operatives and supporters from the United States and Europe.

Militant groups also could use the Hajj as an excuse to relocate operatives for future operations. The Israelis undoubtedly will be watching very closely to see how many of the 2,200 pilgrims Hamas sent from the Gaza Strip do not return. It will perhaps be even more interesting for the Israelis to learn where these individuals go from Mecca. The travel patterns of Moroccan, Egyptian, Algerian and other militants leaving the Hajj will be likewise interesting to the United States and other concerned governments.

The Hajj also opens up the opportunity for militant groups to engage in fundraising. In addition to the well-documented use of donations to Muslim charities to finance militant groups, for many years now intelligence reports have indicated that wealthy donors from Saudi Arabia and other countries literally provide bags of cash to representatives of militant groups. This method of receiving large cash donations from wealthy and sympathetic Muslims has become even more important in the post-9/11 world, in which bank transactions and charities increasingly are scrutinized. Such cash can then be sent out of the country using the unofficial hawala system, or physically carried by a courier. During a time of such heavy travel and heightened weapons checks, a nondescript bag containing cash easily can be passed through an X-ray machine and carried onto a plane

....Islam is full of violence and deceit.....the Muslims prove it every day...

...you do not want these people in your neighborhood...Ban Muslim Immigration

"He was chosen by god to teach and spread Islam. ""'

...a claim made by him and with no witnesses....he did so, because he needed something to keep the restless ones in line....he enforced his "laws given to him" with great ruthlessness and violence....followers learned quickly: "Better do as he says"

If the hijackers were the same ones whose mugshots were released by the authorities in the US how come some of them are turning up alive in countries like Egypt and you can find these reports, just google it.

Um, "google it"? If Muslims are so certain about this, why doesn't al-Jazeera, whom you hold in such high esteem, merely find these guys in Egypt and interview them as headline news? And keep doing so and doing so until the message is loud and clear instead of hidden away in conspiracy theory websites? Certainly, invasions in both Afg. and Iraq would've surely been averted if al-Jazeera had aired such damning evidence. That being the case, it could be argued that the blood of Iraqis and Afghanis should also be on al-Jazeera for not responsibly reporting this "troof".

But I can google and find your beloved al-Jazeera reporting stuff like this and this. And what they've reported to broadcast, like this. All fakes, you say? Then why would al-Jazeera even bother broadcasting such "fakery", instead of the interviewing the "surviving 9/11 hijackers"?

In a little known interview Bin Laden denied having any involvement in 9/11, he even went as far as to say I have no animousity or the intention to harm american civilians

The Bush admin and Mossad also "denied having any involvement in 9/11" and "have no animousity or the intention to harm american civilians". Yet you believe bin Laden and not them. Why?

Throw on top of that a bunch of Isreali 'students' who were spotted jumping with joy as the towers fell.

Anyone can match your "spotted Isreali students" with "filmed Palestinians" jumping with joy as the towers fell. Oh, but one is faked and the other isn't? Well, add it up however you want....this argument at the very least is a wash (unless you believe that Muslims can never lie and only non-Muslims can).

I think it would be very magnanmous of the Amerike to allow an Assura march along ground zero....it would be peaceful, no one will be killed and yet the flow of blood on that ground will somehow infuse with the blood of the 3000 killed there.

Actually, it would be more magnanimous for Ahmadis to allow an Ashura march around the tomb of Jesus. Maybe the Shias, by allowing their blood to be one with the ground on which Yuz Asaf is buried, will get an epiphany of sharia-lite through such a glorious, ecumenical, unifying experience. And they can invite their Sunni brethren to come along. Who knows, this could be better than the hajj! And through it all, maybe there will be more peace and less death in Pakistan than you see today. For after all, as we are all told, Islam = peace.

"it would make up for a march never to be forgotten....this is what I woould hope to see."

Sharia lite...is that anything like Cyanide lite?

You won't see any Jews or Christians or Hindu's in the Hajj because they are not Muslim and they wouldn't go anyway. If you were to see a jew or a christian there then he/she would be a Muslim. In the same way you don't see a muslim in a church or a synagogue.

Name one Christian church that won't allow non-Christians to set foot in their building. Muslims have visited my church and are more than welcome there. I have visited mosques, Buddhist temples, Hindu temples, and synagogues. Personally, I'd like to visit Mecca, even tho' I'm not Muslim. Nevertheless, the issue isn't whether one WANTS to go to a place of worship that is not their own....it's whether one is ALLOWED to go. And more than anyone, Muslims blatantly restrict non-Muslims from entering theirs...

You won't see such restrictions around any Christian churches or Buddhist/Hindu temples. I think even non-Jews can visit the Western Wall. Makes you wonder whether non-Islamic religions are really acting as the ones "for all mankind" instead of Islam.

'The authenticity of the tape, which does not have moving images of bin Laden, could not be verified.'
So what does that mean exactly?
Sounds a bit like Bin Laden has not been charged with 9/11 because of a lack of proof.

So what about the Palestinians they didn't do 9/11 or is that another of you're crazy beliefs?
The video about the Palestinians is a well-known video and had nothing to do with 9/11. To make this video even more dodgy it's not even live.
Where's the flag burning,or the chants of 'death to bush'. I just see clips of happy people, very inconclusive.
Just because CNN said they are chanting because of 9/11 you think I'm going to believe it. Whereas the Isreali agents is a proven facts. They just dissapeared from the radar strangely enough. The

Bush admin and Mossad also "denied having any involvement in 9/11" and "have no animousity or the intention to harm American civilians".

Both are evil in my oppinion, who would do anything including take out their own citizens due to greed aka oil. Bush is a Neo-con what are the basic beliefs of a Neo-con? Whereas the Israeli's are Zionists a very humane bunch aren't they?

Furthermore I can't see how its possible that you somehow foil all these terrorist attacks before they happen and you couldn't spot an attack of this scale. If it was Muslims who did it then your president let it happen for a reason. Now thats evil.
I'm not certain who was responsible I'm just skeptical.

I'm not like you. If you show me something that is beyond doubt. Then I'll believe it. You are the type when you ask me a question I give you an answer with proof and you still come back and say but errrr its still evil.

The things you try to credit with Islam, the Quran and the Sunnah haven't said go ahead and do it.
This makes all you're claims childish and without basis.

Keep attacking Islam as much as its frustrating and not very nice I won't lose much sleep over it, because the Quran has warned us that Muslims would always face these problems.

'The Hajj has a history of being a violent event and an event that has triggered violence elsewhere'
LOL you're trying to give me a history lesson on the Hajj from wikipedia. What has Islam got to do with one lunatic who claimed he was the mahdi and then decided to take people hostage? Many westerners claim they are the Messiah and jesus and blah blah blah I don't say oh look the Christians are violent. I already know what you will reply with so no point in replying.

champ I don't need to because they will have the recompense from Allah swt. It's becoming very frustrating discussing things with you. I say something which shatters you're false belief but you still go on about it. How is fighting oppression evil?????????
If you don't believe that THEN YOU'RE EVIL! and you know what I'll tell you who the oppressors are, its you're President and his administration, in fact it's every president you've had since world war 2.
You try and act like the world is god's gift to you. You're the one's who want dominance, but it won't happen it never will. Read my words.Mark them.

You go around interfering in other countries and you claim its for humanity its for their freedom. But that's not really true is it? As you would have helped the Rwandans, you would have helped the Bosnians. You should be helping the people of Darfur. You only went in after they were slaughtered then took the credit for stopping oppression.

For those countries that stand up to you, you place sanctions on them, cripple their economy and starve their people.You plunder the world for what its worth. You force nations to submit to you're orders under the false pretense that you will help them after they come begging to you for aid.

You stand up for democracy but totally went against it in Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Somalia, Korea, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan,I could go on...
Did you give the people of these countries a chance to vote for who they wanted?

You're cowards as well, since you opted to wipe out the innocent citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

You throw you're wait around and disobey UN orders when it's not solely in your interests.

Is there anything I have said which isn't true?

I'm tired of discussing anything with you and won't waste my time in future. Everything you accuse Islam of it happens in you're society more frequently. One of your soilders dies he's friends take out 30 civilians in sacrifice to him. Thats oppression, thats terrorism. Look it up on the dictionary.
And yes Allah swt hates you. I've never said he loved you. But he's never said kill you because you're infidels. You don't read the full verse and you come on here like a Muslim is stupid and won't know what the Quran teaches.
I'll challenge anyone of you to come up with a single verse that is detrimental to society.Including Sharia. If Sharia was followed on this earth you would never see the immorality you see today. People commit a crime and learn nothing from going to prison.
And to receive you're punishment in this world trust me is a far far better option than to receive it in the afterlife.

If you say the Quran isn't true then make a single verse like it. Thats a challenge in the Quran that has stood to this day, many of you have tried and failed and will continue failing.

Does the bible deal with inheritance? No. Does it have any chapters which talk about rights for woman? No. When did you're society come up with rights for woman?
dumbledoresarmy - your society doesn't follow the bible. It claims to be Christian but its secular and does not want anything to do with religion so stop the bible talk.

Waving you're flag around like you have something to be proud of. Truth is you're hypocryts, embarrassed about your past. I have nothing to be embarrassed about because Islam does nothing but good for the billion or so that follow it. Everyday its a guiding light to us and I will never condemn another muslim as much as you want me to. Thats not my job.

What do you think of jihad she asks. How many times is Jihad mentioned in the Quran?? Since you know so much about it give me the exact figure. That also goes to that arsehole who said he wanted to bet to me that he knew the Quran? Answer this question for me.

yadayada - You want to go to mosque then go. But whats the point of you going exactly? And trust me they don't have people there who have infidel detectors, nor are there are any signs that read 'muslims only'.
'Even non-jews can visit the western wall, non-christian can come to a church.'
You will say anything regardless of how stupid it sounds. Shows how dumb you are to be running a church. My point was there are no restrictions but only people's choice restricts them from going. What they gonna go Hajj for sight-seeing?

Don't go to Mecca you're not allowed. Go to a mosque though no problem. Would I be welcome in a church with my beard and with the Quran in my right hand?? I don't think so.

thesaracen -

I think I'll save you the trouble of having to rewrite another apology, since you seem to have lost your way and you're back to being 'mad' at everyone again:

"I owe everyone of you who I have spoken of in a bad way a sincere apology. I have been arrogant and have forgotten the reason why I came on this website which was to defend Islam in a way the Prophet pbuh would have done. Humility, tolerance and patience, whilst ensuring that people whichever religion they observe were treated with kindness. I have no problem with Christanity,or judaism thats you're religion and as I have said before I have no right to force you to change. If it has appeared that way then once again I apologise.
We are all forgetting in this current climate that we are all humans. We bleed the same blood, we breathe the same air, we have two legs and two arms. We all forget this, because of our different beliefs.
So I strongly urge you to do as I do from now on and talk about other religions in a way that is not derogatory or blasphemous. Seek knowledge from all sources before you come to a conclusion.

In a court case the judge and jury don't just take the testimony of one side, they hear both.
I look forward to hearing you're replies."

Posted by: thesaracen at January 19, 2008 7:43 PM

Thesaracen,

Good evening. Just a couple thoughts here.

"...because Islam does nothing but good for the billion or so that follow it. Everyday its a guiding light to us and I will never condemn another muslim as much as you want me to. Thats not my job."

>> So you don't condemn the Shia Muslims or the Ahmadis for their heretic view of Islam? I think you made your (negative) opinion of them quite clear, in earlier posts.

"yadayada - ... nor are there are any signs that read 'muslims only'."

>> Maybe. Maybe not. But the Saudis make it perfectly clear that non-Muslims are NOT welcome in Mecca. This doesn't come across to us as an 'inclusive' faith.

"My point was there are no restrictions but only people's choice restricts them from going. What they gonna go Hajj for sight-seeing?"

>> Well, that's kind of the point. You have to be a Muslim to visit Mecca, so there is a restriction. And what if I did, really want to witness the Hajj? Or just to see the city? I've been to a lot of wonderful places on this big blue marble we all like to call home, but there's only one place where I can't go. That's not very friendly.

Sorry, but your arguement is a wash here, because there are no signs on all the highways leading into Rome that say "Catholics Only".

"Don't go to Mecca you're not allowed. Go to a mosque though no problem. Would I be welcome in a church with my beard and with the Quran in my right hand?? I don't think so."

>> My friend, I really don't know what you've been lead to believe, or do I know your heart, but be very, very assured that you and ALL muslims are very welcome in any Church. The True God Yahweh does not discriminate.

Anyway, pulling a late nighter?

Peace to you.

Thesarecen,

My friend, you really need to get rid of those blinders you have on, go to Foyle's (you know, that big book store [6 floors], around the corner from the Palace Theatre), and pick up a few good books.

"You stand up for democracy but totally went against it in Vietnam, Iraq, Panama, Somalia, Korea, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan,I could go on...Did you give the people of these countries a chance to vote for who they wanted?"

>> Let' see:

Vietnam - An emerging, and thriving SE Asian country.
Iraq - A basket case, rooted in Islam.
Panama - Huh? Doing quite well last time I checked.
Somalia - That's an Islamic problem. Not our fault.
Korea - Please, don't even go there. South Korea is a thriving, prosperous, and peaceful nation.
Iran - That's your own problem, not ours.
Afghanistan - Another basket case, rooted in Islam.

Oh, the ever favorite...Palestine.

Thanks, but Israel is doing quite nicely. Oh, I'm sorry you mean the "Palestinians", the Arabs who refused a state in 1948 and 2000. Living in abject poverty and despair today.

"You're cowards as well, since you opted to wipe out the innocent citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki."

>> Cowards? Okay, then when that Nutjob in power in Tehran shoots off one or three of his nuclear missles at Jerusalem, then he's a coward.

"You throw you're wait around and disobey UN orders when it's not solely in your interests."

>> Sorry, but most UN member nations (read: Arab nations) have an abysmal record of complying with UN resolutions. The United States is the only nation to fully enforce every one. Can you say "Iraq"?

"Is there anything I have said which isn't true?"

>> Plenty.

Peace.

Hi thesaracen,

You stated: "champ I don't need to because they will have the recompense from Allah swt."

**OK - that is such a non answer, but I will accept it anyway.

"It's becoming very frustrating discussing things with you."

**Then stop writing me.

"I say something which shatters you're false belief but you still go on about it."

**No you don't. You haven't said one single thing that shatters my beliefs - not one - and I don't go on about it either.

"How is fighting oppression evil?????????"

**What are you talking about? I never brought up the subject of oppression at all. Reread my last comment and you will see that I never mentioned it once.

"If you don't believe that THEN YOU'RE EVIL!"

**Nice, thesaracen, very nice. Nasty name calling is SOOO mature, and something that I've come to expect from you, not your phony apologies. Notice how I haven't called you a single nasty name in the 3 days that we've been dialoging with one another. Not a one; but you continue to resort to saying things to me that are completely out of line and counterproductive to having a mature and reasonable conversation. In a nut shell, name calling is a conversation KILLER, so this is the end of the line for me in having further dialog with you. Don't write. Don't apologize. Don't bother. I'm done. I will not respond to any more of your bogus attempts at friendship, because you have no control.

I do however promise to continue fighting against the evils of Islam, because that is one of my passions in life. I hate what Islam stands for, and I always will. I give up part of my evenings each night, and a portion of my work day each day towards blogging on this site because I believe so strongly in warning people and fighting this evil -- this evil known as ISLAM!

Wake up, man!

Thesaracen,

One final thought before I retire for the night:

"dumbledoresarmy - your society doesn't follow the bible. It claims to be Christian but its secular and does not want anything to do with religion so stop the bible talk."

As I recommended earlier, the first book you should buy from Foyles is "The Federalist Papers".

Read it. Comprehend it (without the blinders of Islam and the Koran.)

Then we can talk, on a rational and intelligent level.

Ladies and gentlemen

Note that 'saracen' has carefully ignored the testimony of Tawfiq Hamid, ex-jihadist.

But I don't think we need Hamid's exposition of the classic attitude of revivalist Islam toward Unbelievers - it's all there in 'saracen's final posting.

At least the mask came off in the end. Open contempt, though ugly, is more honest than the illusion of sweet reason.

Observe the REAL 'saracen' in this remark: "And yes Allah swt hates you".

Q. E. D.

Let's compare that hate-filled 'allah', with the Biblical God who is described in John 3: 16, shall we? "For God so loved the world that He sent His only Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

And let's hear from a Jewish follower of Yeshua, who points out that the discussion of Israel in Romans 9 flows directly from Paul's affirmation of invincible divine love in 8:38 - 'what can separate us from the love of God?'. "Right after we are assured of Yahweh's unconditional love, we are reminded of the unquenchable flame in His heart for the Jews"..."Paul is gripped by the [Holy] Spirit's unending burden, the [Holy] Spirit's unending love for the Jewish people" (Sandra Teplinsky, 'Why Care About Israel?').

Now: to me that final diatribe from 'saracen' reads a formal curse. I believe it requires countering. (Bear with me, secularists, rationalists. If you like, call what I'm going to do, psy-ops).

If I could draw here the Star of David, I would; please, Jewish readers, now or reading this in future, once you have read through 'saracen's curses above, I urge you to repeat the Sh'ma or say a Psalm.

I also as a Christian invoke the sign of the Cross + and the Name and blood of the crucified-and-risen Yeshua/Jesus, as a protection over us all, over ALL non-Muslims posting or reading here now or likely to read this exchange in future, against the unholy sacrifices of Islam, and against that spirit of hatred, contempt, division, confusion, falsehood, violence and wrath which was so terribly displayed in Iraq, by the acts described in the article posted above, and which was also expressed by 'saracen' in his or her posting at 8.59 pm.

"May the LORD bless us and keep us; may the LORD make his face to shine upon us, and be gracious to us; may the LORD lift up the light of his countenance upon us, and give us peace".

And here's me thinking my shaving cuts were bad.

"Is there anything I have said which isn't true?

...yes....

"Muslims aren't even allowed to weep and bellow in the funeral's of their loved ones, never mind cutting and beating themselves with chains.

That also includes suicide bombers, 9/11, female discrimination, oppressive rulers, honour killings, you name it. They have nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.

Posted by: thesaracen "

....weeping:

There are three types of mourning, according to gender: male coping & female coping. Men are expected to control their feelings, to express their grief in a quiet manner and brave the reality of loss. This pattern reflects the masculine image of self control.

5
Contrary to the above, the women are given legitimacy to express their grief
Through a variety of expressions: crying aloud, wailing, tearing of cloths, and
official expressions such as avoidance of make up & colorful attire, and delay
of immediate return to daily mundane tasks and regular functioning. Social
image of the woman is as more emotional with a dire need to preserve the
attachment, and having a difficulty to let go.
In the process of coping with loss we can identify two basic dimensions:
a. A quick, preferably immediate return to regular normal life track. The grief can be expressed in tears but quiet, not a loud outcry.
b. Finding a new way to preserve the bond with the deceased. Death is presented as passing to new eternal life. So the grieving party can continue his/her spiritual & emotional connection with the deceased. This connection exists through performance of good deeds, and religious activity, such as: prayers, charity, pilgrimage etc.

...cutting and beating themselves with chains:

For Shi'a Muslims, rituals and observances on Ashura consist primarily of public expressions of mourning and grief. Some Shi'as express mourning by flagellating themselves on the back with chains, beating their head or ritually cutting themselves. This is intended to connect them with Husayn's suffering and death as an aid to salvation on the Day of Judgment.

suicide bombers:

Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Harming innocent bystanders, even in times of war, was forbidden by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). This includes women, children, noncombatant bystanders, and even trees and crops. Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.
.

....
Nothing is to be harmed unless the person or thing is actively engaged in an assault against Muslims.
hmmmmmmm.....According to Islamic tradition, he who gives his life for an Islamic cause will have his sins forgiven and a place reserved in paradise.....

...and the odd thing about Islamic suicide bombers..is that the majority of their attacks are against other Muslims.....

......female discrimination:......oh really?...

Question:
Does Islam teach that a woman is worth less than a man?

Summary Answer:
Absolutely. The only debatable point is by what degree.

The Qur'an:
Sura (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also Sura (4:176)).

Sura (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women"

Sura (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Sura (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Sura (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye.

Sura (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse, which it has been used historically to justify. If this is what Muhammad meant, however, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Sura (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"

Sura (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Sura (4:24) and Sura (33:52) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage.

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"

Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.

Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).

Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'" In other words, the most important thing that a woman brings to a marriage is between her legs.

Bukhari (62:58) - A woman presents herself in marriage to Muhammad, but he does not find her attractive, so he "donates" her on the spot to another man.

Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."

Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another." - Even in this world, Muhammad treated women like party favors, handing out slave girls to his cronies for sex.

Ishaq 969 - "Men were to lay injunctions on women lightly, for they were prisoners of men and had no control over their persons." - This same text also justifies beating women for flirting.

Additional Notes:

The fourth Caliph, who was Muhammad's son-in-law and cousin, said just a few years after the prophet's death that "The entire woman is an evil. And what is worse is that it is a necessary evil."

A traditional Islamic saying is that, "A woman's heaven is beneath her husband's feet."

The revered Islamic scholar, al-Ghazali, who has been called 'the greatest Muslim after Muhammad,' writes that the role of a Muslim woman is to "stay at home and get on with her sewing. She should not go out often, she must not be well-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbors and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband... and seek to satisfy him in everything... Her sole worry should be her virtue... She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband's sexual needs at any moment." [as quoted from Ibn Warraq]

The many opportunities denied women under Islamic law, from giving equal testimony in court to having the right to exclude other wives from their marital bed, is very clear proof that women are of lesser value then men in Islam. Muslim women are not even free to marry outside the faith without being killed by their own families.

Islamic law also specifies that when a woman is murdered by a man, her family is owed only half as much "blood money" as they would be if she had been a man.

Although a man retains custody of his children in the event of his wife's death, a non-Muslim woman will automatically lose custody of her children in the event of her husband's death unless she converts to Islam or marries a male relative of within his family. Even the rights of Muslim mothers are subordinate to her husband's family.

Contemporary Muslims like to counter that Arabs treated women as camels prior to Muhammad. This is somewhat questionable, given that Muhammad's first wife was a wealthy woman who owned property and ran a successful business prior to ever meeting him. She was even his boss... (although we're sure that changed after the marriage).

At best, Islam elevates the status of a woman to somewhere between that of a camel and a man.

The immutable, ever-relevant Qur'an explicitly permits women to be kept as sex slaves, and this is hardly something in which Muslims can take pride.

...oppresive rulers?.....you must be
joking...Name some that are not>....

....Honor Killings:.....

There is nothing in the Koran, the book of basic Islamic teachings, that permits or sanctions honor killings. However, the view of women as property with no rights of their own is deeply rooted in Islamic culture, Tahira Shahid Khan, a professor specializing in women's issues at the Aga Khan University in Pakistan, wrote in Chained to Custom, a review of honor killings published in 1999.

"Women are considered the property of the males in their family irrespective of their class, ethnic, or religious group. The owner of the property has the right to decide its fate. The concept of ownership has turned women into a commodity which can be exchanged, bought and sold."
Honor killings are perpetrated for a wide range of offenses. Marital infidelity, pre-marital sex, flirting, or even failing to serve a meal on time can all be perceived as impugning the family honor.

....it seems to me that the Qur'an may say nothing about "honor killings" (probably because this is a relatively new term), it certainly does allow a Muslim to dispose of unwanted property (i.e. a Muslim woman)...

thesaracen ....I believe you either lie or you just do not understand your religion at all....

...someone has some 'splainin to do"....

Sarge,

Well done! However, the 'splainin to do' will result in just more Taqiyya. A pile of bullshit in the middle of a rose garden is, still, a pile of bullshit.

Someone has even drawn comparisons between Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Quran. I can't remember Hitler ever qouting anything from the Quran, it was infact the bible he used to justify the slaughter of the Jews.

You are a good Moslem and (therefore) a shameless liar.

Nazi despised and rejected Christianity and the Bible which they (rightly) viewed as a Jewish work.
But Nazis admired Islam, and both Hitler and Himmler expressed they respect of that great “warrior religion”. No doubt Kuran referring to Jews as descends of pigs and monkeys and the promise that at the end of the world the pious Moslems will slaughter the Jews, had a lot to do with otherwise atheist Nazi’s infatuation with your horrid cult.

While the Mufti of Jerusalem was a darling guest of Herr Hitler on more than one occasion, millions of Moslems sympathized with Hitler and, in Balkans, many thousand Moslems joined Hitler’s SS.
The “Heil Hitler” and “Allahu Akbar” cry emitted from the same throats as your Moslem SS troopers set out on the joyful slaughter of Jews, Gypsies and Serbs.

And now, while the Kuran is the most read book of the Islam world the Mein Kampf is its western bestseller.
How telling that one of the vilest writing ever conceived in the West and the most “exalted” text of islam should share such happy vicinity. What a disgusting, sordid pair!

Indeed, scratch a (good) Moslem and find a Nazi.

thesaracen ....I believe you either lie or you just do not understand your religion at all...

exsgtbrown,

No, there is no "either - or" here. He is BOTH a liar AND understand his "religion" perfectly.

His "religion" is a lie - that's why he can not stop lying and, at the same time, be a good moslem.

Or in other words, the moment he stops lying he misunderstand his "religion", or worse, becomes an apostate.

Assalamau Laikum "thesaracen"

You (such is the pity) are like almost every other muslim man that I have come to know (other than my son and my Anwer...because I have taught them)

...all friendly and "upto the mark" ....to begin with but as soon as you are put under a little pressure ...you have the red mist over your mind and crack wide open like a coconut.

Do you have ANY idea now how pitiful your response looks...."I'm not going to talk to you ...or you ...because you hurt my feelings ragarding Islam or Muhd SAW...blah blah"

That is exactly what this forum is for...learn..because your lack of knowledge is an showing...don't tick peoples off just because you cannot answer !

My guess is that you won't stay the course ...and I probably won't see you here again...in that case ....All;ah Hafiz...

If you are going to come back....smarten up!!!!

Your Ahmadi sister of the deen

Naseem states: "...all friendly and "upto the mark" ....to begin with but as soon as you are put under a little pressure ...you have the red mist over your mind and crack wide open like a coconut."

That's hilarious! That red mist, it must be the downfall of many a Muslim man! LOL!

Naseem, from what I remember, thesaracen came on board with his guns blazing from the very beginning (unless someone else remembers otherwise). He took issue with several posters from the get-go, but only a few hung in there and put up with his tantrums and verbal abuse - none of which made any sense because he didn't address the issue - he kept attacking the person.

Then he cooled things down by posting what appeared to be a heartfelt apology (the one I reposted above). And then he changed his tone for a short while, but then the verbal abuse started up again once questions were posed that he didn't like or have an answer for.

Is that what Muslim men do? Go into a rage when they don't like your questions? You made reference to these random outbursts in your above comment.

What gives?!!

thesaracen may have given his final farewell midway through his last comment.....

"I'm tired of discussing anything with you and won't waste my time in future."

....we're wasting HIS time....

Sounds a bit like Bin Laden has not been charged with 9/11 because of a lack of proof.

Here's my point --- your beloved al-Jazeera, whom you esteem, reported this "lack of proof" anyway. It's right there on their website....I gave you their links. And yet, al-Jazeera doesn't interview those 9/11 hijackers whom you say are alive in Egypt. And to think, thousands of Muslim deaths in Iraq and Afg. could've been avoided if al-Jazeera had presented such damning evidence and blown the cover off Bush's "deceit". But ask yourself....why, oh WHY didn't al-Jazeera do just that, if it's as obvious as you say? Using your logic, by not presenting the damning evidence of the living 9/11 hijackers, al-Jazeera essentially LET the invasions of Iraq and Afg. happen, just like you say Bush let 9/11 happen. So al-Jazeera has evil, bloody hands just like Bush, yes?

So what about the Palestinians they didn't do 9/11 or is that another of you're crazy beliefs?

Exactly my point. Palestinians were happy with 9/11. Those dancing Israelis were also happy with 9/11. A lot of folks, non-Muslims and Muslims, were happy 9/11 happened. But it doesn't mean any of them DID 9/11. Which is why it's all a wash argument.

Where's the flag burning,or the chants of 'death to bush'. I just see clips of happy people, very inconclusive.

My...it sounds like you might be embarassed to think many Muslims were actually happy about 9/11. Come now, you think all Palestinians were actually in silent mourning over 9/11? Maybe the Shias are beating themselves bloody because they're also mourning 9/11? I'm touched.

Both are evil in my oppinion, who would do anything including take out their own citizens due to greed aka oil. Bush is a Neo-con what are the basic beliefs of a Neo-con? Whereas the Israeli's are Zionists a very humane bunch aren't they?

But you think Osama is not evil. I know, I know....you don't think your brother-in-the-faith Osama is responsible. Re-read my earlier point about al-Jazeera, then.

I'm not certain who was responsible I'm just skeptical. I'm not like you. If you show me something that is beyond doubt. Then I'll believe it.

My comments on al-Jazeera are not "beyond doubt"? But it's strange...you say you're "not certain who was responsible" and are "just skeptical", but you still want something that is "beyond doubt" to "believe"? That sounds like a contradiction. Aren't you certain beyond doubt in your own theories? Honestly, spare us the false humility and just say you are certain beyond doubt that Bush did 9/11, even though your own beloved al-Jazeera doesn't seem to support your evidence for it.

If Sharia was followed on this earth you would never see the immorality you see today. People commit a crime and learn nothing from going to prison.

What, there are no prisons in sharia?

I have nothing to be embarrassed about because Islam does nothing but good for the billion or so that follow it.

Sure....Somalia, Mauritania, Algeria, Sudan, Bangladesh, Tajikistan, Libya, Yemen, and Taliban Afghanistan are some of the happiest places on earth. Easy for you to say, you who's "lived in the west for most of your life". Unless you're really sunning yourself in the Maldives.

You want to go to mosque then go. But whats the point of you going exactly?

To listen to the khutbahs and hear/understand what Muslims have to say. Really, you tell us to go read the Quran to understand Islam, then you tell us we can't truly understand Islam unless we understand Arabic, then you tell us not to listen to the media's views on Islam....so what's an infidel to do? Really, you'd think with Muslims whining that "Islam is the most misunderstood religion, blah, blah" that an infidel's interest in attending mosque and the opportunities it offers to demonstrate "true Islam" to that infidel would be heartily welcomed by Muslims. But based on your comments, I guess not.

nor are there are any signs that read 'muslims only'.

If the links I provided above aren't proof enough (you like proof, right?), then I suggest you go to mosques in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East and see for yourself. Or go online to your friendly Islamic forum and ask folks who are near those mosques about "muslim only" signs. I've been to some of those mosques and you're right, no one has "infidel detectors"....but trust me, those signs are there.

You will say anything regardless of how stupid it sounds. Shows how dumb you are to be running a church. My point was there are no restrictions but only people's choice restricts them from going. What they gonna go Hajj for sight-seeing?

Why does "Even non-jews can visit the western wall, non-christian can come to a church" sound stupid to you? I don't run a church, just attend. I'm not so much interested in Hajj (fascinating as it might be) as I am just going to Mecca and see what the fuss is about.

Don't go to Mecca you're not allowed.

I know that. And for a religion that boasts tolerance and the "true path for all mankind", it's nothing Muslims should be proud of.

Would I be welcome in a church with my beard and with the Quran in my right hand?? I don't think so.

Absolutely, you'd be welcomed, at least in the churches I'm familiar with! Sure, it may be a bit odd if you showed up in your galabiyya and cap, but no one at the door is going to say you can't come in if you wanted to enter. Try it at your nearest church....tell the leaders and attenders there, "I'm not a Christian, I'm a Muslim, and here's my Quran to prove it, but I just wanted to see if I'd be welcomed here anyway"....and see what happens.

Champ- I don't want to be your freind, I never asked for freindship. What I did ask you though was to be respectful to my religion and you failed to do that, because you called Islam evil. Therefore in my eyes you don't deserve respect. So don't talk to me either way it won't harm me in the slightest.

You know its beyond me just how stupid you people sound. No matter how minute something is you'll attribute it to Islam. Whats me being angry got to do with Islam. Have you lost the ability to distinguish between an angry, frustrated human and a Muslim.
'Is that what muslim men do?' How dumb are you?? Islam had nothing to do with me being angry you dumb hoe.

Naseem you haven't fooled me I suspected you wasn't a muslim in your first post. So you want hear another word from me. Someone who doesn't even know how to spell our greeting properly lol.
Didn't you say my pearents wanted a boy but they got me loooooooooool what kind of shit is that.

You're bogus identity is some dirty Ahmadiya anyway, you ain't a muslim in the first place, neither are shia's or suffis they are the cults. SO YES CHAMP I DO CONDEMN THEM, THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS.

Muslim men are this, women are treated like this, mosques don't do this, Islam is not evil, its this because of this and that, because this section of the surah says this and a muslim man did this so all muslims must be the same..... And the Quran says defend yourself so it must be evil and its got too much violence blah blah blah....

thomas. h- Where's the lie?
Rubbish story by the way.

yadayada- you'll never be allowed to go to Mecca unless your a muslim, WHAT???????
You have no interest at all to go to mecca or any fascination you're just trying to back up you're point but there's no need you're not allowed because you're not a muslim. Yes so Islam doesn't like you... and???
You mention these countries and they are all muslim well only some of them. The people are muslim they are sunni's they follow the sunnah of the prophet but there governments aren't and they make the laws. They claim they are but the majority of them turn to worldly enjoyments and are overcome by materialism. So in essense there is not a single muslim country on the face of the earth. What they do or how poor they are has nothing to do with Islam.

But it's strange...you say you're "not certain who was responsible" and are "just skeptical", but you still want something that is "beyond doubt" to "believe"? That sounds like a contradiction.
What are you talking about. Am I not entitled to have a skeptical view on something?? And trust me the story you're government came up with does nothign but leave a load of people muslims or not very skeptical.Your own people don't believe the story. And to end that skepticism I want proof that is beyond any doubt. I don't believe things that im not too certain about, you know. Thats called hear'say.

exsgtbrown
A traditional Islamic saying is that, "A woman's heaven is beneath her husband's feet."
hmm that sounds very evil to me...

The revered Islamic scholar, al-Ghazali, who has been called 'the greatest Muslim after Muhammad,' writes that the role of a Muslim woman is to "stay at home and get on with her sewing. She should not go out often, she must not be well-informed, nor must she be communicative with her neighbors and only visit them when absolutely necessary; she should take care of her husband... and seek to satisfy him in everything... Her sole worry should be her virtue... She should be clean and ready to satisfy her husband's sexual needs at any moment." [as quoted from Ibn Warraq]

Funny how you forgot the part that say the husband has to do the exact same things. Ibn Warraq, some apostate you qouted this shit from. Give your argument some strength and get you're qoutes from a practicing muslim.
But I agree with Some parts. My wife must under no circumstances hang around with people I disapprove of. Neither must she deny me my sexual needs. For the wife it's not the same thing because she's a woman and we don't see her as being equal so it reads: my husand must not hang around with people I dissapprove of. Neither must he deny me my sexual needs.
But the part about being well-informed and neighbours is ridiculous.
Everyone on here will believe you that wouldn't suprise me in the slightest.

Well done! However, the 'splainin to do' will result in just more Taqiyya. A pile of bullshit in the middle of a rose garden is, still, a pile of bullshit.

And you call me a liar. This is the pile of dogshit you're referring to.

woman are property in Islam they can be disposed of. errmmm yeah sure they are.

...oppresive rulers?.....you must be
joking...Name some that are not>.... So I think we can all agree George Bush is the biggest of them. Ariel Sharon. That dirty jew has got what was coming to him. The punishment from Allah swt. Ahmedinijad, The liar whose president of Egypt, Karzai, the puppet in Iraq. The bastard in Uzebkistan. All of them are oppressors. No man in power will ever be a just ruler except a very few such as Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

EVERYONE ON JIHADWATCH GIVE A ROUND OF APPLAUSE TO exsgtbrown. I see you have done you're research.

You crack me up. He builds up his post by actually AGREEING that Prophet Muhammed pbuh did not condone the killing of innocent bystanders, because he had something up his sleeve. He actually agreed with me for once. How can you all continue to say what you say about our beloved Prophet pbuh after this man has just revealed the truth he knew all along. You've undermind what everyone on Jihadwatch believes well done to you.

LOL......female discrimination:......oh really?... LOL

Now you have challenged me because im not a scholar but if by the time im finished I have not answered every single one of those surahs and hadiths you mentioned comprehensively, I will leave Jihadwatch and let you get on with you're blasphemy.
Who commissioned you by the way? Are Jihadwatch paying you a salary because they should?
He's done what you should all be doing and thats qouting from the Quran to justify what you want.
Now because this noble man has mentioned quite a few surahs and hadiths you'll have to give me time as I don't have the knowledge but sure enough in the next day or so. Your joy will turn into dispair as you'll realise the Quran and the hadiths have no flaws.

Thesaracen,

Good evening.

"Well done! However, the 'splainin to do' will result in just more Taqiyya. A pile of bullshit in the middle of a rose garden is, still, a pile of bullshit.

Actually, I said that, not exsgtbrown. And it's just a silly euphemism I just made up.

Either you like me (and thus did not direct any vective towards), or I'm getting a whole separate post.

Feel the love!

Islam sure does enlighten ones heart and soul - I know mine has been enlightened. LOL!

Hey, Boneshack! No kidding! :-)

Thesaracen,

(Sorry, this is a minor revision to my last post.)

Good evening.

"Well done! However, the 'splainin to do' will result in just more Taqiyya. A pile of bullshit in the middle of a rose garden is, still, a pile of bullshit."

Actually, I said that, not exsgtbrown. And it's just a silly euphemism I just made up.

Either you like me (and thus did not direct any invective towards me), or I'm getting a whole separate post.
--------------------------------------------------
On further analysis of your post, you said:

"You're bogus identity is some dirty Ahmadiya anyway, you ain't a muslim in the first place, neither are shia's or suffis they are the cults. SO YES CHAMP I DO CONDEMN THEM, THEY ARE NOT MUSLIMS."

Champ didn't make that assertion - I did, last night.

You had stated:

"...because Islam does nothing but good for the billion or so that follow it. Everyday its a guiding light to us and I will never condemn another muslim as much as you want me to. Thats not my job."

I merely asked you to confirm your previous condemnation of Shias and Ahmadis.

>> So you don't condemn the Shia Muslims or the Ahmadis for their heretic view of Islam? I think you made your (negative) opinion of them quite clear, in earlier posts.

Okay, you've clarified your view. If one is not Sunni Muslim, then one is not a Believer. Fine. End of argument.

You also said this, this evening:

"Now you have challenged me because im not a scholar but if by the time im finished I have not answered every single one of those surahs and hadiths you mentioned comprehensively,..."

No one is challenging you because you're not a scholar [of the Koran]. I am far, way too far, from being a "scholar" on my on Holy Books, but if I quote them, I'd better be able to back up my claim/thesis/assertion. (Heck, I'll just ask my little brother, an ordained Minister! LOL!)

Yadayada,

Absolutely, you'd be welcomed, at least in the churches I'm familiar with! Sure, it may be a bit odd if you showed up in your galabiyya and cap, but no one at the door is going to say you can't come in if you wanted to enter. Try it at your nearest church....tell the leaders and attenders there, "I'm not a Christian, I'm a Muslim, and here's my Quran to prove it, but I just wanted to see if I'd be welcomed here anyway"....and see what happens.

Nice answer, and thanks for backing me up. I would probably recommend to a Muslim to say this, instead:

"I'm not a Christian, I am a Muslim. I come here with an open mind and heart to hear the message of the Lord Yahweh and his Son, Yeshua."

Less confrontational, if you follow my drift.

"What I did ask you though was to be respectful to my religion and you failed to do that, because you called Islam evil."

**I Failed? Thank you! Receiving low marks for not respecting Islam and calling it evil is a compliment of the highest order! I consider allah & mohammad to be false in every way imaginable, and nothing you say, whether naughty or nice, will ever change my mind; and the One True God agrees with me: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Exodus 20:3

Champ,

"Smackdown!", as they say in the WWF....LOL!

LOL, Boneshack!

To Champ, Exsgtbrown, Yadayada, Dumbledoresarmy, and all others,

This single verse from the Bible pretty much destroys Islam, "Allah", and the prophecy of Muhammed.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Exodus 20:3

For all our Muslim friends, I challenge you:

Refute that!

I have posted excerpts from M Scott Peck's compelling book, "People of the Lie", on other occasions; in light of the chaotic and heated proceedings that have taken place on this thread, I think I will do so again.

Peck writes as follows, describing "a distinct ...type of personality disorder to encompass those [people whom] I have named evil.

"In addition to the abrogation of responsibility that characterises all personality disorders, this one would specifically be distinguished by:

a - consistent destructive, scapegoating behaviour, which may often be quite subtle

b - excessive, albeit usually covert, intolerance to criticism and other forms of narcissistic injury

c - pronounced concern with public image and self-image of respectability, contributing to a stability of life style but also to pretentiousness and denial of hateful feelings or vengeful motives

d - intellectual deviousness [i.e. LYING], with an increased likelihood of a mild schizophrenic-like disturbance of thinking at times of stress."

Elsewhere in the same book Peck muses: "The evil deny the suffering of their guilt - the painful awareness of their sin, inadequacy, and imperfection - by casting their pain onto others through projection and scapegoating. They themselves may not suffer, but those around them do. They cause suffering. The evil create for those under their dominion a miniature sick society".

Again, after describing the revulsion which a sane person feels upon encountering real human evil, Peck adds: "There is another reaction that the evil frequently engender in us: confusion. Describing an encounter with an evil person, one woman wrote: "it was as if I'd suddenly lost my ability to think". Once again, this reaction is quite appropriate. Lies confuse. The evil are 'the people of the lie', deceiving others as they also build layer upon layer of self-deception."

And Peck warns (let us all remember this warning) - "the attempt to heal the evil should not be lightly undertaken. It must be done from a position of remarkable psychological and spiritual strength."

I may add that Mr Robert Spencer certainly appears to me to be blessed with 'remarkable psychological and spiritual strength" - he needs every gram of it, in his engagement with the representatives of the Empire of Islam.

Wow...it sure didn't take long for that facade of reason the thesaracen was sporting to fall away. Now we're all stupid and disrespectful. Cool...Thass me! But not so stupid as to fall for a false religion as he has. I will never submit to the tyranny of Islam...never.

"But not so stupid as to fall for a false religion as he has."

BINGO!!!

One small final comment.

Did everyone notice the antisemitic sneer, in that last rant by 'saracen', above? -

He spat: "Ariel Sharon. That dirty jew has got what was coming to him. The punishment from Allah swt."

In those three phrases, full of contempt, filled with an unhealthy delight over the helpless suffering of a great though flawed human being, 'saracen' has exposed himself completely. He has shown us a face of pure evil, so vile as to be not merely human, but diabolical.

So: where 'saracen' has cursed, I will bless.

May YHWH bless Israel His bride, and deliver her from all her enemies.

And in particular, may the Holy One, the Shepherd of Israel, bless Ariel Sharon as he lies suspended between life and death, and grant him release from his suffering, peace after his long and exhausting pilgrimage.

Well spotted dd'sarmy.

Also, "No man in power will ever be a just ruler except a very few such as Prophet Muhammed"

Hmmmmmmmmm

Your joy will turn into dispair as you'll realise the Quran and the hadiths have no flaws.

Posted by: thesaracen

...yes they do...they exist...

"He has shown us a face of pure evil, so vile as to be not merely human, but diabolical."

...loser....

DDA prayer: "May YHWH bless Israel His bride, and deliver her from all her enemies.

And in particular, may the Holy One, the Shepherd of Israel, bless Ariel Sharon as he lies suspended between life and death, and grant him release from his suffering, peace after his long and exhausting pilgrimage."

I, too, would like to offer up the same prayer for Ariel Sharon and for Israel - Amen & Amen!!

"oppresive rulers?.....you must be
joking...Name some that are not>.... So I think we can all agree George Bush is the biggest of them. Ariel Sharon. That dirty jew has got what was coming to him. The punishment from Allah swt. Ahmedinijad, The liar whose president of Egypt, Karzai, the puppet in Iraq. The bastard in Uzebkistan. All of them are oppressors. No man in power will ever be a just ruler except a very few such as Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

....the question was posed to name some Muslim rulers who are not oppressors...

Now you have challenged me because im not a scholar but if by the time im finished I have not answered every single one of those surahs and hadiths you mentioned comprehensively, I will leave Jihadwatch"

....promise?....

....Do not like Naseems brand of DaWa? Do you dislike her because she is a woman?...do you dislike her comments because they have a hint of truth in them?...or do you not consider her to be a Muslim?...It is ok to tell her Muslims do not like the Ahmadi...I tell her often....she understands...

....btw,,,i posted the Qur'anic quotes because I can read and I know what they say...their quotes are the ones Muslims use to justify their violent activities....Others here can read too...

Sarge,

I'll keep on eye on this thread to see he follows up on his "promise"..hehehe...

You have no interest at all to go to mecca or any fascination you're just trying to back up you're point but there's no need you're not allowed because you're not a muslim.

Funny how you seem to know what does and doesn't interest me. At any rate, since attending mosque and listening to khutbahs interest me, so naturally does a visit to Mecca or Medina. I know I'll never get there, since I'll never become a Muslim just to satisfy that interest and Islam won't budge either, but that doesn't mean I'm still not interested in visiting.

Yes so Islam doesn't like you... and???

I'll let this speak for itself.

You mention these countries and they are all muslim well only some of them.

So which ones of those would you say ARE muslim? The Taliban?

The people are muslim they are sunni's they follow the sunnah of the prophet but there governments aren't and they make the laws. They claim they are but the majority of them turn to worldly enjoyments and are overcome by materialism. So in essense there is not a single muslim country on the face of the earth.

But you say this while also saying "Islam does nothing but good for the billion or so that follow it". So, can Islam still be "nothing but good" for its billion followers without the benefit of a Muslim country? If so, why bother pushing for an Islamic state? Based on your words, isn't Islam good enough as it is without Islamic state?

It begs the question (#1)....are "worldly enjoyments" and "materialism" simply too powerful to be overcome by Islam? The Taliban didn't seem too hung up on "worldly enjoyments" and "materialism" (look at Osama). Was the Taliban government the closest to Islamic state we've seen? If so, would you live under it instead of the West?

It begs another question (#2)....you'd agree the West is surely more hung up on "worldly enjoyments" and "materialism" than any of the Islamic countries I listed. So why does the infidel West, who don't even embrace Islamic values or worship Allah and put the Bible (not Quran) in motel drawers, struggle way less than the Islamic countries I listed? Why at the very least doesn't Allah punish the kafir West more harshly than wayward Muslims? But instead, Allah not only spares the infidel West from harsher punishment (e.g. Katrina vs. 2004 tsunami/2005 Pak earthquake), but he curiously allows the infidel West to flourish to the point where Muslims from all those Islamic countries I listed are clamoring to get into the blessed-albeit-infidel West, instead of the other way around. Why?

What they do or how poor they are has nothing to do with Islam.

But how can some things have "nothing to do" with Islam, when Islam is supposed to be the complete way of life....social, economic, political, and moral? And earlier you boasted how the Quran deals about women's rights and inheritance, while claiming the Bible doesn't. So why wouldn't the Quran then deal with what countries do or their economic status? How can Islam have "nothing to do" with one's economic state?

But perhaps you mean "all bad things in Islamic countries have nothing to do with Islam....only the good things". In that case, one could say the same about the West and other religions as well (e.g. slavery, racism, and atom bombs have nothing to do with true Americanism, cuz our Constitution says so). Which brings us back to begged-questions #1 and #2 above.

And to end that skepticism I want proof that is beyond any doubt. I don't believe things that im not too certain about, you know. Thats called hear'say.

Fine. Then show us your "proof-beyond-any-doubt" about the "living 9/11 hijackers in Egypt". And don't tell me to google it, 'cause that only brings up "hearsay" blogs, forums, websites, and outdated articles that would both confirm or deny your allegation. Instead, show me proof (since you like proof, right?) from respectable news sources. In your case, that'd be your brethren-in-the-faith, unbiased-as-you-say, incapable-of-hearsay al-Jazeera. Show me where al-Jazeera interviewed these living 9/11 hijackers, who they are, what they look like, what they're doing today, etc. I've searched the al-Jazeera website and I can't find it. I tried searching on the hijackers' names, but I get "distorted American propaganda" stuff like this. Nothing about them being alive somewhere. But maybe you know where that info is, being the devoted al-Jazeera groupie you are.

Also, explain to me why al-Jazeera keeps broadcasting Osama's tapes that admit his complicity in 9/11, if it's all "distorted American propaganda" to begin with.

Let's check in with your other brethren-in-the-faith at Arab News and see if they can provide some info on the "living 9/11 hijackers". Oh, guess not....they perpetuate the same "American propaganda drivel" as al-Jazeera. Are they all being "bad Muslims" for doing so? So what's a skeptical, proof-demanding saracen like you, who said he "will never condemn another muslim as much as you want me to", to do in the face of all this evidence?

Yadayada,

From one your links above comes this little gem:

The last [Pillar] is Jihad, that is, exerting oneself to the utmost to disseminate the word of God and to make it supreme, and to remove all the impediments to Islam - through tongue or pen or sword. The aim is to live a life of dedication to the cause of Allah and, if necessary, to sacrifice one’s life in the discharge of this mission. This is the highest spirituality, rooted in the real world., which Islam wants to cultivate. Life – affirmation based on goodness and piety, and not life – denial, is what Islam stands for. And this lends a unique character to Islam…

...denial, is what Islam stands for.

Boy, couldn't have hit that nail any straighter than a professional carpenter.

The above quotation is straight from an Muslim cleric/scholar's mouth.

It just f**ing baffles me how many times Muslim, Dhimmi, or Muslim apologists try to squirm their way out of this.

Thesaracen may not understand this, but in small town America (unlike in Eurabia), we have ways of dealing with this kind of bullshit.

Thesaracen,

You Said:

If muslim individuals do something against the teachings of Islam, then don't say it is Islamic.

>> Sorry, man, but Islam is rooted in the the Qu'ran, Hadith, and Sunnah. These words are the unalterable words of your ilah.

It's their own ignorance that has caused them to do something and then say 'it's what the Quran says.'

>> See above.

If you want to attack these individuals on merit then I will join you.

>> Fine. But a huge percentage of your fellow "believers" don't agree with you.

But if you want to attack Islam as a whole and the noble Quran for you're own beliefs then you will never win. You'll be fighting a losing battle.

>> We have the truth from the True God Yahweh, as recorded in the Torah and Gospel.

It's something the west seems to have forgotten. Everytime something bad happens in the muslim countries it's headline news in every type of media.

>> I wonder why that is? I can't recall the last time a Catholic blew him/herself to bits in a Baptist Church. Have any info I'm no aware of?

Then you think all muslims must be the same.

>> You are. You chant the same Qu'ran.

But these actions are not Islamic so you have to distance it from the Quran and realise the ignorance of humans is the only fault here, whether they are muslim or not they can still be ignorant.

>> Ignorant? Dear, Sir, we can all read here.

But Im a muslim I don't know if I will go to heaven or hell (may Allah spare me from it) even if I don't do these actions you see in today's world.

>> Sorry, but your ilah touched you at birth and whispered into your ear your fate. And it was written on the Eternal Tablet. Are you willing to fulfill the obligations of your your ilah?

Nor do I know if any of you will go to heaven or hell because you may embrace Islam at any moment. Whether you do or not is totally up to you. Get this in you're head and think about it. Worship what you will but take heed of the consequences.

>> That whole statement made ZERO sense. In a choice between:

ALLAH = Eternal Death

and

Jesus = Eternal Life

I just made my choice. If you can not, and will not, understand the theological differences between the Holy Bible and the Qu'ran, then, I can't help you.

Have you even read the Holy Bible?
-----------------
thesaracen ....I believe you either lie or you just do not understand your religion at all....

I understand it well, neither have I knowingly lied.

>> No, Sir, You do NOT understand your "religion".