Big news: Indonesia's largest Muslim group vows to combat misunderstanding of Islam!

Looks to me like it isn't going to let up Robert.

Well we just have to keep plugging along to stop the thugs and not give up!

I'd write the headline....."to COMBAT the misunderstand(ers)of islam....."

Interpretation: to BEHEAD them (if) they are infidels......

Nothings changed here......

Okay, but.......

There are those darn suras in the Qur'an. Does this mean the Qur'an can be interpreted? Is the Qur'an to be read as a metaphor? Are the peaceful suras (not that many) take precedence over the warlike ones? Aren't you setting yourself up to be called an apostate or heretic? How about the rest of the Islamic world? Are they going to be upset you are interpreting the Qur'an?

I can just hear Bin Laden now................if he's still alive, that is.

Let me guess. In order to advance this project these Indonesian "reformers" will soon require copious amounts of Western foreign aid to pay their staff, to build and staff new mosques and madrassas to teach the "right Islam," and to forever subsidize rural economic development. And if those copious funds are not cheerfully provided, or if they are started and later curtailed for any reason, the Muslims "will not be reponsible" for what happens next.

responsible

Lets hear what old bucktooth Bashir has to say about that...!

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/12/16/bucktooth-bashir-pays-homage-to-bali-bombers-in-jail/

Clearly the efforts of infidel relief organizations after the tsunami meant nothing.

Judging from the lead, it appears that the only thing that sparked the recognition that some are "misteaching" Islam was the possibility that it would affect Indonesia itself. Otherwise the many attacks on the West since the first WTC attack, all justified by Islamic doctrine, would have produced a backlash against the "misteachers", and Osama bin Laden would have become the most despised, not the most admired, man in the Muslim world.

So they're getting rid of the calls for "holy" terror in the Koran?

Sounds like a plan.

Suras 9:5 and 9:29-30 should have gone in 1000 A.D. already.

And scores of other verses chock full of dismal dogmatic intolerance, misogyny, and raw, murderous hate.

Unless this "sanctified" violence is expunged from their "sacred" tenets, their work is pure playacting ("Dupe the Dhimmis") , and will have no effect.

It's like they think we can't read!

Newsflash Indonesian Muslims: Westerners CAN read!

There is no "misinterpreting" the many mandates from Allah to kill everyone not Islamic if they don't convert. And that the ultimate goal of Islam is to make the world "all for Allah," i.e. world domination. (See Koran).

So, as someone colloquially posted on JW a few days ago, "Don't piss on my boots and tell me it's raining."

Stendec is right on the money, profitsbeard:

these guys will attract western money like s#*t attracts flies. Our half-witted polit-props and NGO's will be all over them supporting these mothers of the brand-new Islam, which, as we all know, will not be different from the 7th century Islam that we know so well.

But hope sells....

...and there is a sucker born every minute!

As SYM and Standec have pointed out, they may be mad but they ain't stoopid. This is all about a fest grabbing money tournament. The Muslims have this down pat.

They've done it a 1,000 times before, it's always worked, and they're going to keep on doing it.

'COS IT WORKS

And the bad part is, terrorism in itself is not really what we're concerned about. What we're concerned about is their burning drive to take over everything, or shariah totalitarianism, which can be done by plenty of means other than terrorism.

The likelihood of their addressing this is proportionally miniscule to their miniscule likelihood of fulfilling the current promise to address 'extremism,' as they call it.

In other words, that'll be the day. Meanwhile, the diverters divert and the ditherers dither, the apologizers apologize, the storm gathers, and -- what's that? Do I hear fiddle music?

"We have seen several countries, notably Saudi Arabia and Yemen, claim to rehabilitate jihadists using the "true" teachings of Islam, but such programs have been marked by a high rate of recidivism and a CURIOUS VAGUENESS about just how they teach against the jihad ideology from a Muslim perspective".

Indeed. This is not about logic, not about being clearly and specific in defining terms
(about 90% of logic and reasoning is in this), demonstrating by example, formulating arguments based on clearly defined terms.

This belief-system (particularly the permissions to deception) alters brain patterns and will damage the ability to think clearly. The mind is made for precision and specificity in thought. Deception alters perception. (Probably Jesus was right in saying "all deception comes from the evil one".)

"which was supported by poverty and lack of understanding of the true Islam"

1. "Poverty" does not cause people either to support, or participate actively, in violent Jihad. Every study has shown that Muslim terrorists are better-educated and certainly better off than most Muslims. Ayman Al-Zahawiri and Osama bin Laden both come from prominent, and very well-off families. Al-Zawahiri's great-uncle was Azzam Pasha, first Secretary-General of the Arab League. Bin Laden's polyphiloprogenitive father (who sired 57 children with various Muslim wives) was a Yemeni immigrant who became the largest contractor, and possibly the richest "commoner" (if one can bring oneself to designate the Al-Saud as "the royals"), Mohammad Atta was the son, studying abroad, of an upper-middle-class Egyptian family, and others were similarly placed.

2. This "lack of understanding of the true Islam" is shared by every major Saudi cleric, the former Sheik al-Azhar, Tantawi, that learned Shi'a theologian the late Ayatollah Khomeini, and by every other Islamic cleric, expressing his views on Islam for fellow Muslims (and indifferent, in such cases, or possibly merely insufficiently aware, that what he writes or says can be, and recently has been, monitored by non-Muslims, such as those who run that indispensable website, MEMRI). So have clerics with vast popular followings, such as Al-Qaradawi, who has justified the "homicide bombers" who attack Israeli civilians.

What makes those behind this movement think they can ignore -- or that we in the West will ignore -- this reality, or that they can continue to pretend that the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the exemplary figure of Muhammad (uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil) in the Sira are not the immutable problem that cannot be wished away, or ignored much longer. The Infidels are learning too much, and getting fed up. They are, in much of Western Europe and certainly in this country, in their own grasp of the situation outrunning their own elites, and disinclined to tolerate the continued failure of those political and media elites to come to the same coherent understanding.

sheik-

Agreed. Stendec knows the game.

And they'll need to fake some "humanitarian crisis" to put a convincing icing on this faux "reform" routine.

Panic tends to confuse the West into throwing money, supplies and rebuilding things.

I never sent a buck to the Tsunami folly.

It was their own idiocy in not having ocean sensors, which would have spared 99.99% of the lives lost.

Instead, they were bulding mosques, terror cells and indoctrinating more killers.

Let them eat their own mistakes until they tire of the bitter taste.

Starting with the rank Koran.

They should distribute copies of the Sirat worldwide. Then all misunderstandings will be eradicated in a few year, and not only this...

I am sure we would all like to give Muzadi the benefit of the doubt. We really would. Unfortunately, common sense and recent history suggests that we do not.

As Robert pointed out, there are far too many variables of the 'grass roots' movement left undefined.

To combat this you simply must eliminate all infidels and non-Muslims. Now, that's pretty simple.

Goob - actually, Nero played a lyre. (Pun not intended, but still funny in this Muslim context.)

The Infidels are learning too much, and getting fed up. They are, in much of Western Europe and certainly in this country, in their own grasp of the situation outrunning their own elites, and disinclined to tolerate the continued failure of those political and media elites to come to the same coherent understanding.
by Hugh

The problem is that we believe in rule of law and we seek change through peaceful methods. The people aren't about to get rid of their elites. Instead we seek to persuade them. Our search for consensus is not just our strength. It's almost our Achilles' heel.
The Muslims have every right to believe they can continue as they have been doing because political change takes too long and is vulnerable to manipulation by the Islamists and their enablers. By the time we turn our ship of state around it may be too late to stem the tide.

Assalamau Laikum Profitsbeard,

You said “Panic tends to confuse the West into throwing money, supplies and rebuilding things. I never sent a buck to the Tsunami folly.

Not sending your bucks is folly indeed.

I am letting you know that "Zakah", means 'purity'. The miraculous Koran signifies that "purity" is achieved through giving charity in God's way. See Koran 9:103, 92:18 & 9:60.

The amount due (though Muslim tradition states a different percentage) is 50 % of savings beyond a persons legitimate needs …and here you are not offering a single buck…how very selfish of you.

Zakah is due out of savings. Savings is income that a households receives but does not spend on buying goods and services.

Out of the amount saved 50 % has to be given (spent) in God's way, according to the Koran:

" The alms are only for the poor and the needy, and those who collect them (for distribution), and those whose hearts are to be reconciled (resettlement of families, refugees etc), to free captives (slaves etc) and the debtors in need, and for the cause of Allah (God) and the needy travellers; a duty imposed by God. God is Knower, Wise" (Koran 9:60).

The Koran asks men (& womens) to spend on fulfilling their legitimate needs as they wish, keeping within the boundaries set by God, in the Koran and says at the same time, "..but waste not by excesses" (Koran 7:31)
Therefore, what is not spent out of a person's income on fulfilling his (her) legitimate needs should 'Islamically' be saved. And out of what is saved (and what is beyond a person's legitimate needs) 50 % should be given in charity in God's way.
The categories of people mentioned in Koran 9:60 to whom Zakah is due are all "needy" in some way or the other….and this includes tsunami victims.

You maybe selfish….but at least your administration is providing the Zakah….someone in your admin is more Islamic then they know….and Allah Paak will reward them for this …even if they know it not…..Allah T’allah is all seeing and all merciful….even to kaffur.

A lot of virgins are coming somebody’s way…and they don’t even know about it….but you profit’s beard….work on your charity habits before your afterlife kicks in ….over there …you may salivate at other peoples luck….but you cannot touch...instead you may have hellfire to pay!

There's no point in expecting Muslim authorities to address this problem by addressing Koranic teachings Sura by Sura. That won't work. If the Koran says to kill and enslave infidels, that's what it means, and reinterpreting the murderous and oppressive teachings of the Koran and ahadieth is not possible.
Also, trying to convince Muslims that Islam is a peaceful religion is just as impossible. Islamic scripture says what it says, and nothings going to change that except maybe an eraser.
The one thing that might work is if Imams are instructed to teach in Mosquess and Madrassas that suicide killers are not Martyrs and most likely they all went straight to hell, and future suicide bombers can expect to join them there.
At least sincere Muslim authorities might be able to inject fear and doubt into the minds of young men who think that suicide murders are a path way to paradise and bliss.
If Muslim leaders are not prepared to pronounce suicide bombers criminals and apostates who go to hell for their crimes, then they're not serious about combating suicide bombers.
Nothing else will work

...Is seems only Muslims misunderstand their religion....must be that confusing text , the QUR'AN...

"We have seen several countries, notably Saudi Arabia and Yemen, claim to rehabilitate jihadists using the "true" teachings of Islam, but such programs have been marked by a high rate of recidivism and a curious vagueness about just how they teach against the jihad ideology from a Muslim perspective."
-- from Robert Spencer's comments above

An article in today’s (Duranty) Times -- "Yemen's Deals With Jihadists Unsettle the U.S." – explains that Yemen has hit upon a way to deal with its own homegrown terrorists. The method is simply to extract from them a promise not to attack Infidels in Yemen itself, or possibly – the story does not make it clear – not to commit acts of terrorism within the territorial waters of Yemen, which would prevent a repetition, presumably, of such attack as that on the U.S.S. Cole. And of course it should.

But Yemen's government is not doing anything different from what the Saudi government is doing with its much-heralded-in-the-West "deprogramming" of Saudi terrorists. They are told, those Saudi terrorists and supporters of Al Qaeda, to understand that the benign Al-Saud are good Muslims, that they do everything they can for Islam, that they spend hundreds of billions, for example, helping to pay for mosques and madrasas, that they fund campaigns of Da'wa, and that any dealings they have with the Americans or other Westerners are undertaken solely as a temporary measure, intended to strengthen the forces of Islam, and contrary to what Bin Laden charges, they have no intention of "taking Jews and Christians as friends," no intention of allowing non-Muslims to live permanently in Saudi Arabia, no intention, that is, of ever violating the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sira. And with a team of clerics carefully chosen for their bought-and-paid-for loyalty to the Saudi regime, some of those Saudi terrorists are indeed persuaded to stop declaring the Al-Saud "infidels" and to concentrate their anger on the real Infidels, whom they are free to attack, just as long as those attacks take place outside Saudi Arabia.

That, as has been noted repeatedly here, is what Saudi "de-programming" efforts are all about. And it is the same in Yemen. Here are excerpts from today's Times article:

"That same year, Mr. Saleh hit on an idea that he hoped would satisfy both his American and Islamist partners: “al hiwar al fikri,” or intellectual dialogue. This was an effort to inculcate the idea that Islam, properly understood, does not condone terrorism. Sessions began with hundreds of former jihadists who remained in prison without charges.

“It came from the idea that terror depends on ideology, and that thought should be confronted with thought,” said Hamoud al Hetar, the cleric and judge who led the program.

A cleric would sit for several hours with three to seven prisoners, mostly outside the prison, and discuss Islamic law and ethics, Judge Hetar said during an interview at his home in Sana.

At first, the Saudis and others derided the idea as too soft. At the same time, many Yemeni religious scholars refused to participate out of fear that they would be assassinated by militants, Judge Hetar said. Gradually the program gained acceptance, and Saudi Arabia soon adopted its own version, including therapy and a more comprehensive reintegration program.

Some critics have dismissed the dialogue program, which lapsed in 2005 after terror attacks dropped off, as a sham in which inmates feigned conversion to get out of prison. But Nasser al-Bahri, a former driver for Mr. bin Laden who spent four years with Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, said it was more like a raw bargain: exempt Yemen from your jihad and you will be left alone.

“It changed their behavior, not their thoughts,” said Mr. Bahri, a cheerful, talkative 33-year-old who once went by the nom de guerre Abu Jandal. “Judge Hetar cannot cancel jihad. It is in the roots of our religion.”

Sitting on the floor of a bare living room in his Sana apartment, Mr. Bahri said the government helped him buy a taxi and pay for business school after his release in 2003. Although he says he still supports Al Qaeda’s global goals, he also urges other Islamists to avoid any violence in Yemen.

Ali Saleh, another former jihadist who went through Judge Hetar’s program while in prison, now serves as a mediator between the government and Islamists. He helped negotiate the surrender of several of the 23 men who escaped from prison in Sana in early 2006. In exchange, the government agreed to make concessions, including releasing the men after their surrender, he said.
“The government understands, in Yemen you must compromise to reach a solution,” Mr. Saleh said. “The Americans would like to put us all in jail. But if you do this, 10 men will become 20, 20 will become 100, and then — we will be an army.”

The article – by Robert Worth – does not mention what should be of greatest interest to readers. This method of dealing with terrorists by the not-to-be-trusted government of Yemen is not one whit different from what the Saudi government is doing with its much-heralded (by naïve and miscomprehending Westerners) of Saudi terrorists. They are told, those Saudi terrorists and supporters of Al Qaeda, to understand that the benigh Al-Saud are good Muslims, that they do everything they can for Islam, that they spend hundreds of billions, for example, helping to pay for mosques and madrasas, that they fund campaigns of Da'wa, and that any dealings they have with the Americans or other Westerners are undertaken solely as a temporary measure, intended to strengthen the forces of Islam, and contrary to what Bin Laden charges, they have no intention of "taking Jews and Christians as friends," no intention of allowing non-Muslims to live permanently in Saudi Arabia, no intention, that is, of ever violating the Qur'an, the Hadith, the Sira. And with a team of clerics carefully chosen for their bought-and-paid-for loyalty to the Saudi regime, some of those Saudi terrorists are indeed persuaded to stop declaring the Al-Saud "infidels" and to concentrate their anger on the real Infidels, whom they are free to attack, just as long as those attacks take place outside Saudi Arabia.

The story in The Times limits itself to explaining the deep unhappiness, among those who make policy in Washington, with the attitude and behavior of the Yemeni government. The Saudi government is no different. When will the dots be connected?

"I have been made victorious through terror," al-lah, the Quran.

WHO exactly is misunderstanding Islam, now?????

From August of last year:

The Nahdlatul Ulama’s fatwa against television gossip shows.

At their national conference at the end of July the clerics of the NU determined that Muslims who make or watch celebrity gossip shows, or “infotainmen[t]”, commit sin and participate in the moral degradation of the nation. The issuing of the fatwa has drawn the support of a number of groups including the Press Board, the PPP, Partai Persatuan Pembangunan, and the Majelis Ulama Indonesia, the Ulema Council.

If these Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) Muslims are sincere about their project to "de-radicalize" Islam in Indonesia, they apparently have an obtuse inability to comprehend that the pathologically obsessive puritanism of the Islam they purvey, through such fatwas as quoted above, contributes to the radically nutritious swamp whence the "extremists" pullulate.

From the same article quoted above, we see signs of internal dissension within the NU:

Former leader of the NU, Abdurrahman “Gus Dur” Wahid, however advised people to not pay too much attention to the fatwa, as it was not the only accepted view of the matter. He said the NU was entitled to take a position on the question but others were free to think as they pleased. He mentioned the example of a former leader of the NU, Bisry Samsuri, who had forbidden women from playing drums in music bands. Many women, including members of the NU, continued to bash away on the drums regardless, he said.

It's nice to see one spokesman for the NU, "Gus Dur", belittle the fatwa against females drumming in bands -- but on the other hand, the fact that there was such a preposterously pathological fatwa in the first place -- by a former leader of the NU! -- shows that the NU needs some serious reappraisal of its sociopolitical rhetoric. Will the current of the NU, to "stop the spread of misteaching of Islam, which could trigger radicalism", also purge such pathologies within its own ranks -- pathologies that also contribute, albeit more subtly, to the very same "radicalism"?

http://www.indonesiamatters.com/573/infotainment-gossip-shows/

How does one interpret it correctly? Walid Shoebat said "what part of kill the infidel do you not understand?"

Well I can hear the checks being written and distributed to bad a dollar doest go as far as it used to.

One German Gentleman's View of Islam:

by Dr. Emanual Tanay, Psychiatrist

A man whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War ll owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis 'he said,' but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. The hard quantifiable fact is that the 'peaceful majority', the ' silent majority', is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people. The average Japanese individual prior to World War ll was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet. And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'? History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun. Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghanis, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts: the fanatics who threaten our way of life. Lastly, at the risk of offending, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems of expand . So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world wide, read this - think about it - and send it on

The author of the email posted at 1:35 pm (Mr. Tanay) misstated at least one important fact: "Peace-loving Muslims will BECOME our enemy if they do not speak up..."

In fact, he should have written that so-called peace-loving Muslims have already become the enemy due to their passive silence and sniggering approval of the jihadi activities of their orthodox brethern.

We're very much at war and it will only get much worse.

I thought that poverty created terror?

Robert said, “We have on many occasions noted the fact that this alleged misunderstanding of Islam is now a worldwide phenomenon, and that misunderstanders of Islam are often Muslim clerics who have devoted their lives to the study of the religion.”

My Arab babe said, “Please don’t see Islam in bad light. The terrorists’ deeds don’t reflect the true teaching of Islam.”

Hold it guys, please don’t get excited just because I called her my Arab babe. She was hot, and could wiggle her belly. Don’t ask me whether that’s still true today. I don’t know. Since men need good gentlemen manners at any rate, it won’t hurt to say nice things about this Arab woman.

This Arab babe has married a nice looking rich Arab man who gives her a very comfortable life. She wanted to marry me to provide for me or make me a boy-toy, just as Khadijah had provided for Mohammed; except this babe is younger than I am, and there was a great danger of bringing me into her fold because I am not an Arab and I am a Christian. Moreover, I could never become a Muslim because I don’t have anything left for the second circumcision.

Looking back, in my estimate, she could have been as Delilah to Samson, except I don’t have enough muscles. If you have been in my shoes, you will understand the complexity of human relation and interaction in the dealing with Muslim friends and enemies. You will understand that people are people, but people usually are built or destroyed by what they believe dearly without knowing it. Muslims love Islam; Leftist love Muslims; Libertines love secularism. There is not one on earth who can change the minds of those who have made up their minds.

My friends and I used to make lots of money purveying to Muslims without trouble, but as soon as they become suspicious of my encroaching upon their politics, they wanted my head cut off.

The environment under Islam is very harsh; it is not conducive for one’s individual development. The Islamic system is an exact representation of The survival of the fittest, like that of the animal kingdom of Serengeti in Tanzania. The fight for power by assassination is constant. Those who have the seats of power may live at ease. All of us under the ruler’s thumb would bring money and women to them to buy economic opportunity. In Islam, there will always be Islamic Princes above us, to whom we must pay tribute. We, who live under them, have our stomach to feed, so we groan under the burden and never could lift our heads high. But by appeasing them, we can feed our stomach for another day. If we are in their favor, they may make us rich in turn to make themselves richer. Any Jew in the land of Islam could understand what I mean.

Islam is a gigantic humty-dumpty no one can fix. Mohammed had created it for the advantage of his prophet-hood. Naturally, it is in the interest of those who are in the seat of power to maintain the immutability of Koran, for which the Islamic jurisprudence has put Islamic cleric on the par with prophets, from whom everyone takes spiritual advice. Many Muslims wish to become an Imam, meaning Prince. The tradition of paying tribute or giving reverence to Imams, or those in charge, had begun since Abu Bakr drop his sword on a Muslim neck for questioning prophet Mohammed; therefore, no Muslim would dare to question those who are in power, and this tradition will continue to live to the end of the world. Just as Jews will not become extinct, Islam will not die because they are the children of Abraham. Whether terrorists understood or misunderstood Islam, the hand of Ishmael will always be against every man, and every man’s against him.

The credo of Islam is what it is; i shan't argue there.

Nevertheless, historically Indonesia and indeed the entire Muslim population of southeastern Asia USED to be much more pacificistic and much less strict in the adherence or even acknowledgement of the violent tenets of Islam. That was up until the Krakatoa disaster. Until then [late 1800s] the constant presece of preachers mostly from Yemen/Saudi Arabia [as it is now called] were generally ridiculed. In the wake of the Kraktoa disaster however, the violent strain of islam came to the fore. Indeed, it was part of the nationalist push for independence. because of that role in seeking independence, Indonesia initially largely had a free ride from the jihadists. That changed after a couple of decades or so.

Tension has always existed between the extremely tolerant native culture of Indonesia and indeed of southeast asia and the strongly intolerant tendencies of Islam.

The question is: which will win out in the end?

Naseem,

You assume that because someone didn't give to the tsunami fund, they didn't give to anyone? THere's lots of charities, most run by honorable people seeking to help others just for the sake of helping others.

What excuse do the Arab oil potentates have? Or is giving to the PLO and to Islamic Jihad also considered "charity"? How about all those Muslims who spent millions of dollars on the French Riviera? What's their excuse? Then of course there's Yasser's widow, living in luxury from funds donated to help Palestinians and stolen by her hubby.

I also refused to give a penny to the tsunami funds. There are plenty of worthy organizations to which I will always contribute. I suggest the Islamic charities go to the 1.6 billion (or is it 1.3 billion?) Muslims for donations.

Many young people had been recruited and shifted to become suicide bombers, especially those from remote areas in the country which 87 percent of its more than 220 million population are Muslim.

What a pile of bull

Most of the bomber came from Java, which is the most densely populated area. Also it is the Javanese that have been going to the remote areas and murdering the Christians there

Indonesia claims to be moderate yet it is swiftly adopting sharia through the back door by allowing different regencies to make their own by-laws

Syafi’i Anwar, of the International Centre for Islam and Pluralism (ICIP), remarks on the growing demand for sharia based law in provincial areas of Indonesia.

He says:
The growing efforts to implement sharia are really part of the gradual “sharia-ization” in the country. After Aceh which officially adopted sharia under the special Autonomy Law, many regions have followed suit. Initially, only a few regions such as Cianjur, Tasikmalaya [in west Java], Padang [in Sumatra] and Bulukumba [in south Sulawesi] introduced this law. In 2005, 13 regencies demanded sharia and up to now, 18 regions have already adopted it or are about to do so.

Some of the regencies have even adopted sharia in a way that discriminates against minority groups. For instance, the Padang municipal administration issued a bylaw requiring all schoolgirls, regardless of their religion, to wear the headscarf. The bylaw is unacceptable because it is not in line with pluralism which the Constitution recognizes.

Sharia on the edge

Jakarta (AsiaNews) - Protestant, Catholic, Buddhist and Hindu lawmakers have expressed concern over the election of Hidayat Nurwahid, president of the Prosperous Justice Party (PKS) to the presidency of the People's Consultative Assembly (MPR), Indonesia's highest legislative body which consists of the People's Representative Council and the Regional Representatives' Council. The MPR has the power to amend the constitution and impeach the president and the vice-president.

Saudi-educated, Nuwahid is a former lecturer at Jakarta-based Islamic Teaching Institute. He is widely known as a prominent Muslim intellectual leader. Lately, he has come out forcefully against the US occupation of Iraq.

Campaigning on a motto of clean, honest and caring Islamic values, the PKS and Hidayat Nurwahid won the support of many disaffected voters, especially in Jakarta, where it has become the city's main party.

Some Catholics are concerned that he might promote changes to the 1945 Constitution, especially amending Article 29 which explicitly defines Indonesia as a secular state based on the five principles of Pancasila*.

Nationalists from the Golkar party are afraid that Nurwahid might be able to get parliament to impose Sharia law on all Muslims (a possibility excluded from the times of the Suharto regime).

Whilst denying any intention of implementing Sharia law, Nurwahid has made it clear that he wants Muslims to follow a stricter and more fundamentalist version of their religion. In his opinion, the lack of religiosity leads to corruption and immorality.

Will any of these clerics publicly declare that the Qur'an is NOT the eternal, uncreated, perfect and literal words of Allah? And if they do, will they actually be practicing taqiyya and kitman? Would they PUBLICLY denounce deception?

I just can't bring myself to giving them the benefit of the doubt.

"True Islam" 101 proposed Curriculum: (we'll never see)

How Allah's revelations were misunderstood by Muhammad.

How Muhammad's misunderstanding lead to behavior that was misunderstood by all his contemporaries.

How Muhammad's sanctioning of; genocide, murder, torture, burning alive, limb amputation, stoning, robbery, beheading, beatings, misogyny, racism, pedophila, open-ended war, deceit, etc. leads to the misunderstanding of Islam, as being something other than peaceful.

I volunteered at a concert last Friday night. After the performance, we had refreshment before calling the night off. In my conversation with a mixed bag of European and American professional musicians, I was told that they had once performed in Jakarta, Indonesia, and they told me of the beautiful sceneries, so I asked them if they know Indonesia is the largest Muslim nation in the world. They were mortified upon hearing it. A number of them said they thought Saudi is the largest. Oh, I laughed so heartily that I ran out of air, and luckily I don’t wear denture; otherwise, I would have accidental spit it out of my mouth.

If Saudi had been the biggest Muslim nation, we would not have been limping all these times.

The West is so lovely and innocent.

I also refused to give a penny to the tsunami funds Posted by: PMK at January 28, 2008 3:25 PM

Exactly. Same with earthquakes in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran or in any mooselimb crapistan or trashcanistan. Let them get help from their fabulously wealthy saudi bretheren. They can surely afford it.

When Indonesian Imams are prepared to stand up in Mosques and Madrassas and say to all that past suicide bombers were not Martyrs, and that it is sinful and unIslamic to honor them as such, and that thay were criminals and murderers who most likely went to hell for their sins against Allah, and those that emulate their crimes will most surely join them in hell, then we'll know Islamic authorities are serious.
If nothing else, official pronouncements of this kind from respected Islamic leaders, would at least sow doubt and fear into the minds of young potential suicice bombers, and cause them to think twice about taking the Jihadist route. No virgins, no Martyrs!

If they're not willing issue stern statements of this kind, then they're not really serious.

Hi,
I started a You Tube account.
Please visit,

http://www.youtube.com/bobwaters101

The voice you hear is that of a good friend who is a professional singer and entertainer.
He is lending his voice but not his name.
We are going to use entertainment to get out a message.
We are Christians so some of our messages will be about the Allah lie.
If any one has any ideas for future videos we welcome the input.
Thanks
Joe
(Bob)

re: Dr. Tanay's story
This is a story familiar to all who lived in a totalitarian regime, and came here only to be astonished by the naivete of the Americans with "Russians (or fill in your own) are people just like us and want peace for their families".
This is why when a Brit or a European posts here reporting that the mood in the local pub is strongly anti-muslim, I am not as encouraged as the poster perhaps thinks we should be. As long as the power-hungry fanatics are the only ones organized, they can subjugate population many times their size, and the grumbling pubs will grumble until the (permanent) closing time.

Learn to organize, kuffars, it's later than you think.

Last I heard, members of no group of Muslims larger that 15% of the whole, believes that their fellow 85% claimed slaves-of-allah, are anything but apostates worthy of extermination. I support the deportation of all 30,000,000 muslims in the West because they are members of a mutual murder cult, and because 100% of them want to create conditions where they can murder anyone who doesn't prostrate before their fake god. (To be fair, I believe that all deities are concoctions, devised by that class of social parasites known as self-proclaimed "prophets.")

Can muslims ever agree on a universal creed (ageeda)? Impossible, because positions on the sacrality of hadith (Muhammad hearsay) cannot be reconciled. And an early biographer of the hearsay compiler, al-Bukahari, found that he pulled only 8,000 (and many are duplicates) authentic (sahih) hadith out of 600,000 that he collected. Be aware that Sahih collections are sacred to muslims, unlike the contestable Christian and Jewish commentaries. They are deemed sacred because they supposedly present statements of the phony prophet, and found their obligation to emulate his character (sunna). In fact, one of the first laws issued by the Ayatollahs of the Islamic Republic of Iran was to legalize male pedophilia, because hadith claims that the "prophet" took a 6 year old girl in matrimony. (In 2003, Iran banned marriage to 9 year old girls, because it caused a population explosion; neo-conservatives have now nullified that law, and allow those perverse pedophilic marriages). Al-Qaeda documents - and that group is supported by over 60% of the slaves-of-allah - reveal belief in the Sunna obligation of all muslims to commit genocide against non-muslims. Said genocide duty is based on Muhammad's personal administration of an extermination fatwah against male members of the Jewish tribe, Banu Quraizai, who the "prophet's" bandits plundered. Other case-specific Sunna allows seizure of boys as slaves and women as sex-booty (an-fal) for muslim bandits.

Muslim dogmatists - there is no such thing as a muslim scholar - often assert personal autonomy in exegesis, or interpretation of text. Please download this document to see how a member of the mutual-murder society questions literal interpretation of what he calls "allegory" in hadith. Here the issue is: whether the enslaver-"god" has human characteristics. The "download" function of the page takes a few seconds to rise; it can be found above the comment section, and to your right.

http://www.4shared.com/file/29379916/30528e14/The_Hadith_of_the_Slave_Girl.html

All but a handful of fatwah swordsmen would exterminate this moron, for the simple reason that he would allow Muhammad's risible "Night Journey to Hell and Heaven" to be treated as allegory. In same, the Meccan fraudster claimed to have seen the brains of his mother and father, "boiling" in Hell. (What would Freudians say about that?) In that Koranic cartoon - supposedly "recited" to Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel and from the poetic (ie: human) voice of "allah" (may he be raped by a god-goat) - Muhammed claims to have met Jesus (a "red-bearded" human) and Moses, against whom he argued against having muslims prostrate "50" time a day to their prayer starved deity. Muslims CANNOT take that garbage as anything but the literal word from the concocted deity. Muslim "heaven" is indeed the home of a "sky-god" entity, which supposedly emanates perfume through the heavens, and contains "rivers of wine" and 72 hymen regenerating "virgins" for male muslim terrorists. As for "allah," he is a 150 foot tall humanoid, who sits on a throne and tosses "stars" at jinn (Hollywood's geniis), according to hadith. The fact that 7-story allah can pick stars out of the sky suggests that the koranic narrative can only be fiction. Frankly, no modern person could believe that unflushed sewage.

Incidently, Muhammed took the first phase of his "night journey" (read: fake dream) to "the farthest mosque" (there is no mention of Jerusalem, or even of some nominal holy - al-quds - status of Jerusalem in the koran deceit) to "al-aqsa" on the back of a flying horse of arabic folktales. Incidently, the winged animal - which sometimes is given a parrot's face - is calle a "barack," and candidate Obama was named after the steed.

On another matter, as I write, Barack Obama has the momentum to take "Super Tuesday," which - given the Bush abomination - means he will take the presidency. An Obama White House will engage in even more surrenders to muslim aggressors. Muslim immigration and shariah enforcement will pollute America at all corners; aid to shariah tyrannies will increase exponentially; Israel will be put under mortal missile siege; Obama will continue Bush' anti-secularism; former US diplomats will continue to be allowed to serve enemy states; America will pay reparations to Afghanistan, Iraq and the Palestine terrorists.

American, and other, pedophiles are attracted to islam because it is sanctioned in the Sunna of the "prophet." See how a later contributed to NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Assn) converted to the murder cult, and then emulated the "prophet's" sexual perversities.

http://libcom.org/library/paedophilia-and-american-anarchism-the-other-side-of-hakim-bey

@Naseem

...giving charity in God's way...

Wrong God Naseem!

You argue that giving earns points in the afterlife. NOTHING, could be further from the truth. If I was the richest man in the world and give all. It is but filthy rages in comparison to what Jesus has given. Indeed, I would be insulting God for thinking that my gifts were equal to His gift of eternal life.

Instead, I give out of thanks and joy in what I have been given, in Him, ie. eternal life.

Psa 50:10-12 (The true and living God is speaking.)
For all the animals of the forest are mine, and I own the cattle on a thousand hills. Every bird of the mountains and all the animals of the field belong to me. If I were hungry, I would not mention it to you, for all the world is mine and everything in it.

هيكل السلام والامن 50:10-12 (الحقيقي والرب الحي يتكلم.)
لجميع حيوانات الغابة هي الالغام ، وأملك الماشيه على الف التلال. كل الطيور من الجبال وجميع الحيوانات من ميدان تنتمي لي. اذا كنت انا جائع ، واود ان اذكر انه ليست لكم ، من اجل كل العالم من الألغام ، وأنها في كل شيء

Jizya...phooey...Allah ran up the bill, let him make the payments...

These guys are just blowing some more muslim smoke.
The reason there are no Islamic moderates, is because Allah is not moderate, the Quran is not moderate, and the hero, Mohammad was not moderate.
Any muslim who is worshipping Allah in moderation, and who is following Allah's directions in moderation, and emulating the perfect man Mohammad, in moderation, is an apostate and must be killed.
One hundred percent, one hundred percent of the time, is required by Allah. That's why it is necessary to give up your own life and become his slave (Abdallah). There is no room for a muslim to live his own life, if that life conflicts with Allah/Shari'a, 'If anyone changes his religion kill him'. A terrorist who 'misunderstands' Islam may be looking at the fire as far as Allah is concerned, the same with the cleric misunderstanders who wish to correct the other misunderstanders. Clearly someone has misunderstood Allah, and in doing so, changed their religion. Apostates deserve death...

'Misunderstanders' of Islam is a cop out term designed to throw Allah off the track. 'I did not mean to disobey your orders Oh Holy one, I just 'misunderstood'. Allah ain't that stupid...Iblis is stoking those fires...

Allah T’allah is all seeing and all merciful….even to kaffur.

Posted by you-know-who.

Can I vomit, please?

Hope profitsbeard paid no attention to the revolting self-righteousness read above. The arrogance and megalomania of Muslims knows no bounds.

I wouldn't give a penny to people who were dancing in the streets after 9/11.

I do contribute to an organization called "Women For Women International." Anyone interested can look it up on the 'net.