Bush calls for "painful political concessions" by both sides, but spells them out only for Israel. A contiguous Palestinian state would, of course, mean a bisected Israel, or a vastly diminished one that would be almost completely defenseless. "Bush predicts Mideast peace treaty," by Anne Gearan for AP:
RAMALLAH, West Bank - President Bush, summing up meetings with both sides in the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, said Thursday that a peace accord will require "painful political concessions" by each. Resolving the status of Jerusalem will be hard, he said, and he called for the end of the "occupation" of Arab land by the Israeli military."Now is the time to make difficult choices," Bush said after a first-ever visit to the Palestinian territories, which followed separate meetings with Israeli leaders in Jerusalem the day before.
Bush is in the Mideast for eight days, trying to bolster his goal of achieving a long-elusive peace agreement by the end of his presidency in a year. Speaking at his hotel in Jerusalem, he said again that he thinks that is possible.
"I am committed to doing all I can to achieve it," Bush said. Within minutes, Bush's national security adviser Stephen Hadley said the president would return to the Middle East "at least once and maybe more" over the next year. He wouldn't elaborate on possible destinations, but another White House official said Bush is likely to attend Israel's 60th anniversary celebrations in May.
Bush gave his most detailed summation yet of what a final peace should include, including U.S. expectations for the resolution of some of the hardest issues in the violent conflict, one of the world's longest-running and most intractable. He used tough language intended to put both sides on notice that he sees no reason they cannot get down to serious business, "starting right now."
In his set of U.S. bottom lines were security for Israel, a "contiguous" state for the Palestinians and the expectation that final borders will be negotiated to accommodate territorial changes since Israel's formation. He also suggested international compensation for Palestinians and their descendants who claim a right to return to land they held before Israel's formation.
He made a point of using a loaded term — occupation — to describe Israeli control over land that would eventually form the bulk of an independent Palestinian state. That he did so in Jerusalem underscored that he is trying not to seem partial to Israel.
On borders, Bush said any peace agreement "will require mutually agreed adjustments" to the lines drawn for Israel in the late 1940s. He was referring primarily to Israeli neighborhoods on disputed lands that Israel would keep when an independent Palestinian state is formed.
Earlier in the day, Bush had said Palestinians deserve better than a "Swiss cheese" state fitted around Israeli land and security bulwarks.
"The point of departure for permanent status negotiations to realize this vision seems clear," he said. "There should be an end to the occupation that began in 1967. The agreement must establish a Palestine as a homeland for the Palestinian people just as Israel is a homeland for the Jewish people."
White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said Bush was referring to the West Bank when he spoke of occupation.
Bush offered no specifics to resolve the fate of disputed Jerusalem, but urged both sides to work toward a solution in what he said could be the most difficult issue to settle in a long list of them.
"I know Jerusalem is a tough issue," Bush said. "Both sides have deeply felt political and religious concerns."
"It is vital that each side understands that satisfying the other's fundamental objectives is key to a successful agreement," the president said. "Security for Israel and viability for the Palestinian state are in the mutual interests of both parties."...
""Now is the time to make difficult choices," Bush said ""
....like stopping the Jizzyah payments?....
"Bush said. "Both sides have deeply felt political and religious concerns."
Islam has no tie to Jerusalem, Iman Bush
How did he get those "C"s at Yale?
nothing good will come of the president's efforts. nothing.
"He also suggested international compensation for Palestinians and their descendants ..."
...see my first post....
All he is doing is thinking of his legacy, no matter how severe the cost will be to Israel.
There are two opposing views ,plan's on the subject of peace and Israel at the moment is listening to the wrong one.
The imitation sheep who assume's to play the role of the Only Prince of Peace Messiah Jesus.
A pretender to the Throne ?
What incredible arrogance !
Bush says ;
Bush said that disputed territory must be mutually negotiated, but he said "any agreement will require adjustments" to the borders drawn for Israel in the late 1940s. He was referring to Israeli neighborhoods on disputed lands that Israel would keep when an independent Palestinian state is formed.
At the same time, Bush reiterated that any viable Palestinian state must be "contiguous," saying Palestinians deserve better than a "Swiss cheese" state.
"The point of departure for permanent status negotiations to realize this vision seems clear," he said. "There should be an end to the occupation that began in 1967. The agreement must establish a Palestine as a homeland for the Palestinian people just as Israel is a homeland for the Jewish people."
God says ;
"Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off. You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do according to their works; but you shall utterly overthrow them and completely break down their sacred pillars.
"I will send My fear before you, I will cause confusion among all the people to whom you come, and will make all your enemies turn their backs to you. And I will send hornets before you, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite from before you. I will not drive them out from before you in one year, lest the land become desolate and the beasts of the field become too numerous for you. Little by little I will drive them out from before you, until you have increased, and you inherit the land. And I will set your bounds from the Red Sea to the sea, Philistia, and from the desert to the River. For I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand, and you shall drive them out before you. You shall make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against Me. For if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you."
Exodus 23
Israel ,Aren't you tired of listening to the bogus peace huckster yet ?
There is a better more sure way to peace, God's way.
Try it ,you'll have less painful concessions,death and destruction.
""I know Jerusalem is a tough issue," Bush said. "
....wait until he discovers Gaza....
My response to Bush is ironically the same one word reply General Anthony McAuliffe sent to the Nazi commander during the Battle of the Bulge:
"NUTS!"
"saying Palestinians deserve better than a "Swiss cheese" state."
Palis dont deserve anything. What have they done do "deserve" a state?
"He made a point of using a loaded term — occupation — to describe Israeli control over land that would eventually form the bulk of an independent Palestinian state. "
...well according to the Palestinians that includes all of Israel....
Bush is in WAY over his head here; this effort is a mistake that will establish his legacy for all time as a failed one. Bush has for all 8 years of his presidency been a very frustrating leader; one step forward, and two steps back. Above all, in foreign policy, the leader of the free world is supposed to know what all other world leaders want, and how they intend to get it.
In the case of Palestinians, they only want Israel gone, and it now appears that they will get it, with our help.
Israel, can you stand up for youselves? You will have to.
Holy cow. I have supported and defended President Bush in almost everything over the years, against some wild and irresponsible accusations, BUT...
this is just not feasible, workable, sensible, realistic, wise, compassionate -- it's completely insupportable.
And IMO it's really going to have a backlash, rewarding these people who have been monstrously inhuman and have been coddled far too long -- encouraging expectations that are just not going to be fulfilled.
President Bush, come to your senses.
Bush once said you are either 'with us or the terrorists'.
I guess he's given up on the 'us' side.
OH, NO!!!
NOT ANOTHER FAILED PRESIDENT TRYING TO CRAFT A LEGACY AND USING THE PALESTIANIAN-ISRAELI CONFLICT TO DO IT!!!!
NO!!!
NO!!!
LYSOL IT BEFORE IT MULTIPLIES!!!
THIS 8TH-YEAR GAMBIT ***ALWAYS*** WINDS UP WITH ISRAELI GIVING UP CONCESSIONS ONLY TO BE ATTACKED MORE.
GIVING PALESTINIANS A SEPARATE STATE RIGHT NOW ONLY SAYS: VIOLENCE WORKS.
CONTIGUOUS?? IS HE NUTS???
Two states are bad enough, but to divide Israel physically, spiritually, and metaphorically to unite the SUDETEN GERMA--I mean, PALESTINIANS is INSANE!!
This IS Munich II!
SHAME!!
To give the Muslim Arab bloc a return to the status-quo-ante WILL REDEEM THEIR HONOR ON THE CHEAP, and EMBOLDEN THEM to start, fresh and anew, ON THEIR TASK to ERASE the Jewish State.
THEY WON'T ultimately accept what they REJECTED in 1917, in 1937, in 1947, and in 1967!
"How did he get those "C"s at Yale?
Posted by: tanstaafl"
...must have bribed the professors....
I cant think of a more fitting picture.
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2008/01/jerusalem-6-cau.html#comments
....ALERT....ALERT....ALERT...ALERT...
....Who is BUsh endorsing in the Primaries....???
God knows why this lame duck Bush keeps kicking that dead horse, Islam.
Islam doesn't care WHAT the US government does to benefit the Muslim world. It never will. It's Islam.
But--yes, it IS now clear that America's insane idiot in the Oval Office STILL(!) hasn't figured out that non-Muslim efforts to benefit Muslims earn non-Muslims ABSOLUTELY NO POINTS from Islam--EVER! Non-Muslim efforts to curry favor with Islam by doing good works for Muslims are virtually ALWAYS DEAD ON ARRIVAL!!!(Look at how the Palestinians responded to the US government's bid to help them via the Annapolis fiasco if you want proof of this).
Will someone PLEASE explain to Washington's Beltway vote-hucksters that currying favor with Islam is a boondoggle waste of time, taxpayers' monies, and American human resources that are better used elsewhere AND that the time has long passed for DC to move on!!!
memo to the Bush Administration: Move on to something productive and that includes almost anything EXCEPT trying to help and/or please the Islamic world.
""memo to the Bush Administration: Move on to something productive and that includes almost anything EXCEPT trying to help and/or please the Islamic world.""
Sorry
pyth ,I'm feeling a bit frisky in a good sort of way as I head east towards the land of the crescent moon folks.
I'm king of the world and I'm bored,so it's time to play with fire.
And with a year to go I figured to shake things up in a global way.
It just might pull us out of this coming major economic slump or in might just sink us like the Titanic.It's a toss up but hey what choice do any of us have ?
Trust me ,I know what I'm doing.
GWB
Dammit Bush!
It's just another front in the Jihad War and if you haven't learned that one single inch given is an inch too much then you're not the warrior I supported from the beginning.
I've overlooked a lot blunders on the national (border control) and international (delaying the surge) fronts. This tears it.
Finally the Republicans have their own version of Jimmy Carter.
.."international compensation for Palestinians and their descendants." Let me guess who would have to pay out the money for this compensation. However, I don't think the President has lost his mind. These are carefully crafted ideas, meant to enhance his personal fortune and that of the Bush family when he leaves office next year. Working for the Saudis, as an ex-president, can be extremely rewarding. It's all very disgusting, however, for those of us who understand Islam and their drive to rule the world as an seventh century kingdom.
"How'd he get those C's at Yale ?"...
A bad key on the typewriter...they were actually 0's(zero's).
Morgaan, I think you're just jealous 'cause you didn't think of the hotline first.
Are all my apostrophes correct, teacher?
It does not have to be hard.
They waged the war, they lost it.
It's time to remind the pali where the loosers belong. What restrains Israel from taking what's hers? It seems to me that only the left in the West. Ignore the left, extend the borders onto the original British mandate, kick out the thugs, erect the wall and flip a bird at irhabi.
KoranKrusher,
For this its because he doesnt want to leave office without the esatblishment of a Pali terror state. Its all about his legacy and he has a willing dhimmi in Olmert to make it happen.
To ImNoDhimmi
Actually, not. I haven interest in that website. I'm just a tad put off by people using somebody else's website to advertise. I just think it's kind of tawdry. I think they could ask Robert for the privilege first.
The list at this website isn't bad, but the blogger is unidentified while others take the heat by being open about who they are.
One of the first things that confronts you on this website is a request for "donations". It costs like $12.95 a month to run a website like that one, so apparently this is a capital venture here, by the accountant in question.
So ... I just think it's tawdry for somebody to post a profit-making website on a website that is also being run almost purely by donations to JihadWatch or Horowitz's group, which is paying for an internet presence that requires a huge server to handle its million hits a month — and that most certainly is NOT going for $12.95 a month.
So ... I just think it's tawdry to sleaze free advertising on a site that's paying bigtime for the bandwidth to handle this kind of operation and the people who are generating NEW information, not just collecting lists with a little front matter tacked on.
I think it's very rude to JW, which is why I said something about it.
George W. Bush is with our enemies.
Only days after the September 11, 2001 Muslim terror atrocities on American soil, Mr. Bush unveiled his vision of a 23rd Muslim jihadist-killer state in the Holy Land.
George W. Bush is with the jihadists.
ImNoDhimmi ...
I sent it to JW mgmt. They'll take it down or leave it as they see fit.
Israel needs to just finish the fight once and for all. Stop caring about world opinion and start caring about survival. Anyone who doesn't know that the Palestinians do not want peace by now, never will. Our government has to stop feeding us the crap Islam is a peaceful, compassionate religion. We have seen how peaceful and compassionate it is. The Muslims that do speak out put their lives at risk. How peaceful can it be if voicing an opinion can get you beheaded. I see it as they portray it. Mass riots all over the world over cartoons. Few if any riots against the Jihadists in their own communities. Unfortunately that is what I see from Islam today. I credit all the Muslims that have put their lives on the line to speak out against Muslims who are killing in the name of Allah. I credit those willing to see what is causing it even more. Islam itself is causing it, they are following the path of their Prophet. Conquest by the sword.
Did the map change this morning? How can Gaza and the West Bank EVER form a contiguous state? To a lesser degree, aren't they East and West Pakistan?
"Disputed territory" must be negotiated? Georgie, all of Israel is "disputed territory"! Will the Israelis receive "international compensation" for land you force them to give up?
So he's going to attend Israel's 60th? Why should the Israelis let him?
According to the rules, the Palestinians should get less than they were offered in 2000, which was less than they could have had in 1948. Losing a war should have consequencees, particularly to Islam. Why doesn't it?
Morgaan Sinclair
"GIVING PALESTINIANS A SEPARATE STATE RIGHT NOW ONLY SAYS: VIOLENCE WORKS."
Yes it does! Just like....
K
O
S
O
V
O
:)
BTW, you have an apostrophe in a word that doesn't need one.
This is obtrusive pomposity for such a mediocre writer.
The bar of success is set so high, Israel will only practice and the Palestinians will not even try.
Olmert made conditions he knows the Palestinians will never meet.
The Loonies in Gaza will make sure of it.
This is how washing ones hands of the mess once and for all looks like.
The real question is if Iran will show its hand before the next Election. Iran is highly unlikely to allow a State to form with Israel still in the Picture.
Assalamu Alaikum :) ... again your PALESTINIAN friend is here!
I have to admit guys...I love this site ... I love political incorrectness...I really do!
But the main reason why I love this site is that you guys make me feel complete, make me feel powerful...I don't need to justify myself anymore as a Muslim Palestinian. I just need to show up and declare myself, and hop..i am victorious. Do you know why?? Because you guys base all your ideology on false assumption which is that I don't exist, but I actually do :)
I AM A MODERATE MULIM PALESTINIAN :)
Lets analyze this:
MODERATE MUSLIM: something you don't beleive in
PALESTINIAN : something you don't beleive in
And to prove your stands that I don't exist you go so far and dig so deep in texts and histories and what ever it takes to prove to yourselves and to the whole world that I don't exist.
On the other hand I stand with no need to justify anything or prove anything...I exist as a Muslim Palestinian, therefore I am :)
My parents came from a town called Dawaymah in historical Palestine. The town is called nowadays Amatzia in Israel. But hey be careful in how you refer to my parents ...because:
if you call them Palestinians, meaning they come from Palestine...then you are denying Israel right to exist.
And if you call them Israelis, meaning they come from Israel...then you are denying the jewish identity of Israel....
Hmmmm...so what shall we do? ...the only solution is that those people doesn't exist!
I so much enjoy it because I know really know who I am ... I feel it and enjoy it....but you guys will always go and dig deep in religious texts and in history to prove the unproven.
I the Moderate Muslim Palestinian exist, therefore I am.
Insane...
PMK
"Did the map change this morning? How can Gaza and the West Bank EVER form a contiguous state? To a lesser degree, aren't they East and West Pakistan?"
Geography was never his strong point.
viable" "contiguous" --words used by President Bush to describe a "Palestinian" state
A "Palestinian" state is not "viable." It has no natural resources and no human resources. It would have far too many people, because of the fantastic size of Arab families, an overbreeding that is deliberately encouraged in order to swamp, so it is hoped, the Infidel enemy. It can only exist on the basis of permanent handouts from others. Let those handouts come from other Arabs, and stop the payments from the Infidels.
As for a state that is "contiguous," that would mean that Gaza and the West Bank would somehow meet through a corridor of land. But such a corridor of land would cut Israel in two. Israel would no longer be "contiguous."
Does Bush know the terms of the Mandate for Palestine, or what that Mandate (one of many mandates planned, though all the others resulted in four Arab states, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, and Jordan -- four of the present twenty-two members of the Arab League) was supposed to achieve? Does he know what its dimensions were supposed to be? Does he know anything about the history of the Ottoman vilayets that came to constitute Mandatory Palestine? Does he know about land ownership (with 90% of the land being owned by the Ottoman state, then passing to the Mandatory Authority, and then to its intended and rightful successor, the state of Israel? Does he know anything about the massive infusion of Arabs, chiefly from Egypt and Mesopotamia, on top of those who had arrived in the 1840s, as veterans of Abd el-Kabir's campaign in Algeria, or with Mehmet Ali, and who, along with the later arrivals, are now depicted as having been there "since time immemorial"? No, I don't see how someone so ignorant and so dumb could, since almost no one, including the very intelligent, know much or anything about that.
And the Israeli government seems peopled with those who have never learned, or chosen to forget, everything I have mentioned, and a good deal else I might have mentioned, and would have, had I not been concerned for my own health, and the effect on it of my own fury.
Geez, and all the muslims have to do is grin, and shake hands and say whatever they do to make the deal knowing that they think they are directed by a 'higher power' and knowing that any deal with an infidel, especially a JEw, can be broken at any time but not to last longer than 10 years in any case.
When will our politicians get a clue? When?
I am embarrassed of Bush. I used to defend him but I cannot anymore. It seems that if I can crack open a book to find out why they hate us, and read what they do, that at least he could have appointed someone to do that, if he was too busy, and then come back and summarize it for him. And he has brighter people than me on his staff.
Great Comet ...
I will not be taking your bait to get into another bloody altercation on this site about Kosovo, except to say that the solution I advocated was a:
GREATER SERBIA (including the Serb-majority provinces of both Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina)
and a
GREATER ALBANIA inclding Muslim-majority Kosovar areas
CROATIA as it stands now, which all leaves
a smaller Bosnia-Herzegovina.
The obvious fact here is that Serbia fought every other ethnic group in the Balkans using all the weaponry of the former Yugoslavia, and while the Bosnians were disarmed, the Serbs shelled Sarajevo for more than 1000 straight days (from a priceless historical Jewish cemetery that they destroyed in the process).
I don't like religious states because they always become more conservative.
I am also afraid of ALL ethnic states, but the jury is still out.
The solution in the Balkans, as I've said, is not to force a group under the control of another group that tried to exterminate it using massacres, forced marches, ethnic cleansing, and rape as armaments of war.
That said, no group was clean, including the Kosovo Albanians. But more than 60% of the war crimes were Serbian, with ALL the other ethnic combined not quite coming up to 40%.
I think it's been said numerous times that the Palestinians MIGHT have a state ***IF*** the stopped the attacks. That has been requisite until now.
Personally, I find it insane to give a state to people who continue to lob 1,000 rockets a month into their neighbor's yard, who brainwash their children with shahid vidoes, and who have no other national export than violence.
If you want to I suppose you can try to equate the situation in Kosovo (or elsewhere at your pleasure) with the Palestinian situation, but I don't find it as easy as you do to do that.
Now, having clarified my position, there is one other important matter.
YOU ARE GOADING, AND YOU ARE TRYING TO PUNCH UP AN OLD SITUATION TO USE. DON'T DO IT.
It is out of respect for Robert's time in having to police these threads when you guys go nuts that I not longer comment on this issue.
Not that it matters if I do. I have no influence over the matter at all.
And neither do you.
"Bush calls for contiguous Palestinian state to be established within the year"
...they have one, but they do not like their state, they want their neighbors property...
The goal of Jihad in establishing a Philestina [foreign invader] state is directly tied to the greater goal of destroying Israel. Because if Islam can destroy Israel, it will effectively defeat Judaism & Christianity with one bomb. Both belief system's prophetic destiny is tied to existence of Israel. Allah [satan] knows this all too well, and now is raging all the more because he knows his time is short..in more ways than one. Like using ignorant
leaders like Bush to inch closer to this tantalizing
prize.
How about this for a peace deal. There is no "Palastine", only Israel .... pack up and get out, or fight and die.
Great Comet ...
I will not be taking your bait to get into another bloody altercation on this site about Kosovo, except to say that the solution I advocated was a:
GREATER SERBIA (including the Serb-majority provinces of both Kosovo and Bosnia-Herzegovina)
and a
GREATER ALBANIA inclding Muslim-majority Kosovar areas
CROATIA as it stands now, which all leaves
a smaller Bosnia-Herzegovina.
The obvious fact here is that Serbia fought every other ethnic group in the Balkans using all the weaponry of the former Yugoslavia, and while the Bosnians were disarmed, the Serbs shelled Sarajevo for more than 1000 straight days (from a priceless historical Jewish cemetery that they destroyed in the process).
I don't like religious states because they always become more conservative.
I am also afraid of ALL ethnic states, but the jury is still out.
The solution in the Balkans, as I've said, is not to force a group under the control of another group that tried to exterminate it using massacres, forced marches, ethnic cleansing, and rape as armaments of war.
That said, no group was clean, including the Kosovo Albanians. But more than 60% of the war crimes were Serbian, with ALL the other ethnic combined not quite coming up to 40%.
I think it's been said numerous times that the Palestinians MIGHT have a state ***IF*** the stopped the attacks. That has been requisite until now.
Personally, I find it insane to give a state to people who continue to lob 1,000 rockets a month into their neighbor's yard, who brainwash their children with shahid vidoes, and who have no other national export than violence.
If you want to I suppose you can try to equate the situation in Kosovo (or elsewhere at your pleasure) with the Palestinian situation, but I don't find it as easy as you do to do that.
Now, having clarified my position, there is one other important matter.
YOU ARE GOADING, AND YOU ARE TRYING TO PUNCH UP AN OLD SITUATION TO USE. DON'T DO IT.
It is out of respect for Robert's time in having to police these threads when you guys go nuts that I not longer comment on this issue.
Not that it matters if I do. I have no influence over the matter at all.
And neither do you.
The interesting word is of course contiguous. Which in my dictionary means in contact touching, a sort of Danzig corridor to put it in its historical perspective. So instead of Palestine being divided into two parts Israel has to be divided into two part. Surely he can't be so stupid, or have the offers from the Gulf states for a speaking tour at a million dollars a shot, after he retires as President addled his brains. This is not going to pass muster in the Knesset, and he must know this, so why is he doing it? Has the rot gone so far in foggy Bottom that they are now suffering from foggy top syndrome. This trip is not more than a public relations trip for the Muslim world and he can pass the buck over to the Israelis. Like Pontius Pilot he can wash his hand and say I tried. Well done Georgie boy.
Alarmed Pig Farmer ...
If that guy is going to rip off Robert the least he can do it use decent English. But it doesn't matter now. ... Go see if you can find that post.
quote: "Israel ,Aren't you tired of listening to the bogus peace huckster yet ?
There is a better more sure way to peace, God's way.
Try it ,you'll have less painful concessions,death and destruction."
Yet further evidence that a substantial percentage of Robert's fans are fundamentalist Christians who are simply to eager to bash another major religion they deem to be "wrong." Rather than have peace established in the Middle East and deprive Islamic Supremacist of their complaint that US unfairly supports Israel, you would keep the status quo because of your BIBLE. How is that far removed from the actions of Islamic Supremacists?
Sorry, GC1577 ....
Posted twice by mistake.
Holy cow. I have supported and defended President Bush in almost everything over the years, against some wild and irresponsible accusations, BUT...
Posted by: Sounder at January 10, 2008 2:44 PM
Sorry, and don't take this personally but you and others like you, elected, supported and defended a corrupt timid man. This mistake could have been corrected has Vush been impeached after blocking 9/11 commission, after "guest worker program", after Dubai Port Deal, after "aid" to Saudi Arabia. But Americans could not accept their mistake.. sounds like you do regret voting for Bush, though so you have started to come out of denial. Well, the mistake is costing America dear. Oh.. and am not a democrat / communist so please save the hostility.
ibrahimX,
You dont seem to have a problem with the Qur'an bashing other religions or Islamic law that treats non Muslims like 2nd class citizens.
How much should Israel sacrifice to reward Pali terrorism.?
Brilliant! In the waning days of his Presidency, form a third (after Jordan and Israel) country, "Palestine", out of the original Mandate set aside for the creation of a Jewish state. Divide Israel and leave her with indefensible borders. Take the photo op pictures in front of the tomb of Arafat (may his name be erased). Collect the Nobel Peace Prize. Rejoin the Carlisle Group.
And leave the ensuing mess for the next President to clean up. Kind of like Iraq. Light the fuses, then rush into retirement.
How can two territories with no common border form a contiguous state? Someone is being professionally stupid here. The best they can hope for is a binary state.
Damned I'd like to find that 10-page essay Fitzgerald did a couple of years ago on the true story of early Israel. You know, where a large percentage of the land comprising Israel upone its creation had been purchased by returning Jews from absentee Arab landlords over the 20s, 30s, and 40s.
I searched for it in the JW/DW Archives but could not find it.
So much of Western thought is predicated on the assumption that the Jews came in and stole land outright from beleaguered Bedouins (note this is pre-1966, before they took on the stage name Palestinians). This mistaken, but self-serving, assumption is what underlies Bush's "occupation" statement and so many others.
Victims. The poor peace-loving Moslems are always play the role victim.
What's that? Someone incorrectly placed an apostrophe, and I missed all the excitement?
ibrahimX, do you put Christians like rocketman on a par with Palestinian Muslim jihadist murderers?
Do you consider Christians that support Israel and the land of Israel -- based on their understanding of the Bible -- equal in violence and hatred of Muslim supremacists?
"Yet further evidence that a substantial percentage of Robert's fans are fundamentalist Christians who are simply to eager to bash another major religion they deem to be "wrong." Rather than have peace established in the Middle East and deprive Islamic Supremacist of their complaint that US unfairly supports Israel, you would keep the status quo because of your BIBLE. How is that far removed from the actions of Islamic Supremacists?"
what a knee slapping rolling over on the floor funny comment from a religion hell bent on the destruction of Israel and the USA...and dedicated to the destruction of any free will choice outside of Islam-la-la sharia land. So fighting against this Islamic Supremacist idealogy is "just as bad"???
Is this supposed to be a angle to get us to pacify into a guilty dhimmi attitude or something???
more ROFL...
"How is that far removed from the actions of Islamic Supremacists?
Posted by: ibrahimX"
....mmmmm...good question....I have been reviewing the lists of active violence related incidents initiated by Islamic Supremacists and I have been reviewing the lists of active violence related incidents initiated by Christian/Non Muslim supremacists and i clearly see a big difference in the number of violent incidents whever ever MUslims are involved....
Well, Ibrahim, I'm not a fundamentalist Christian, so excuse me while I speak.
The reason I don't think Palestinians should have a state at this point are:
(1) They lob 1,000 rockets a month into Israel.
(2) Yasser Arafat's net worth rose from $300 million to $800 million in the 1.5 years he never left the Ramallah compound. (source: Forbes) So, where did he get it? From foreign aid given to the Palestinian people, which is being ripped off by their leaders for personal aggrandizement and jihad.
(3) State-sponsored child abuse. Shaheed vidoes. See Palestinian Media Watch for the scintillating collection.
(4) Abuse of women. Honor murders. Forced veiling. Rampant suicide among women. And engaging in "womb wars" in which Palestinian women are reduced to being baby machines in a demographic war. The burning of "excess" teenage girls nobody wants to pay to feed.
(5) Broken promises. In the last five agreements Ixrael gave up concessions for nothing other than this: STOP SHOOTING. Palestinians didn't stop shooting.
(6) Implementation of extreme shari'a law. What happens when HAMAS takes Gaza? Extreme shari'a law in a week. Who loses? Women and children. This is no group of men to whom to give a country. They can't be trusted with the welfare of the other 67.5% of the people living there.
(7) Violence and pressure on non-Muslim peoples and non-Muslim religious groups. Google Palestinian + churches and you'll see what I mean.
(8) In the 40 years since 1967 Palestinians have created no gross national product based on craft and trade. They have subsisted on foreign donations.
(9) Those foreign donations are by and large coming from the United States, and yet you engage in jihad against us. We should not give you another penny. Maybe then you'd go back and dig up those great trades that used to make the Palestinian people among the best craftspeople on earth.
(10) You openly state that you do not want your own country. You want to exterminate the 5 million Jews who have created a properous one next door and take over the gem they created, which you will not be able to run anyway, because you've spent the last 40 years f&*(ing over your women, you children, and everybody else who isn't a Palestinian male.
So, on balance, we should not give you something you think isn't good enough anyhow.
You're a disaster because you've chosen to be.
:Yet further evidence that a substantial percentage of Robert's fans are fundamentalist Christians who are simply to eager to bash another major religion they deem to be "wrong." Rather than have peace established in the Middle East and deprive Islamic Supremacist of their complaint that US unfairly supports Israel, you would keep the status quo because of your BIBLE. How is that far removed from the actions of Islamic Supremacists?"
-- from a posting above
Quite a few atheists in this particular foxhole, Ibrahim. But atheists who happen to know the history of the treatment, or mistreatment, of Jews and other non-Muslim (and non-Arab) minorities in the Middle East. Atheists who know the history of the Jews, including what happened in "Palestine" after the Muslim invasion. Atheists willing to do research into the cadastral (land ownership) records, and the demographic records, of that dusty part of the Ottoman Empire that, split between several vilayets and the separate sanjak of Jerusalem, did not have more than 100,000 people in the mid-19th century, with 15,000 in Jerusalem -- a plurality of them, even then, Jews. Atheists who know perfectly well why Lloyd George, Clemenceau, Jan Christiaan Smuts, and others who founded the League of Nations found it right, found it proper, found it just, to establish, among the various mandates (four Arab countries came out of those mandates, while the Kurds and the Armenians never had the promises made to them fulfilled, and the Jews received a dimidiated territory -- only historic "Palestine" west of the Jordan -- and that, of course, is precisely the territory that you know perfectly well, sir, the Arabs and Muslims have no intention of letting the Israelis permanently possess, no matter how many further territorial and other absurd concessions the Israelis, whose entire negotiating history for the past 59 years has been to give up, give up, give up, tangible gains for promises that are always and everywhere eventually breached, for those who follow the Treaty of Al Hudaibiyya (and as Majid Khadduri points out in "War and Peace in Islam" all Muslims follow Muhammad's example in that treaty, the 10-year hudna with the Meccans, broken by him after 18 months).
Yes, there are plenty of atheists, Protestants and Catholics too, and Hindus and Buddhists, and would you believe it? even Muslims of the Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only variety, and certainly every apostate I have ever met, who are deeply worried about, concerned about, and refuse to contemplate any further surrenders to the Lesser Jihad that will forever be conducted against it, the State of Israel.
Not everyone, contrary to your silly stereotype, is a holy-roller Bible-thumper who supports Israel. In fact, it only takes two things. It takes specific historical knowledge, and moral sense. And even if you lack that knowledge, and that sense, and all you know is that any further triumphs by Arab Muslims, either by pressuring Israel into still more idiotic and dangerous concessions, or by accepting the Arab narrative that attempts to disguise the Lesser Jihad as a "nationalist struggle" of that recently-invented (circa late 1967) "Palestinian people" (see Zohair Mohsen on this), will only whet, not sate, the Muslim appetite. In other words, all you have to know, now, if you are a non-Muslim, is that any concession, anywhere, to Msulim demands by any non-Muslim people or state, will be bad for all non-Muslims.
That is what many Infidels are coming to recognize. And in so doing, all the hard work of all those Arab, Muslim, and "Palestinian" propagandists over the past forty years is coming unravelled, coming undone.
Morgaan Sinclair
Just saying...violence worked.
"If you want to I suppose you can try to equate the situation in Kosovo (or elsewhere at your pleasure) with the Palestinian situation, but I don't find it as easy as you do to do that."
It is easy! Just look at the equation below:
Kosovo = Palestine = Kashmir = Chechnya = Xinjiang = Mindanao = Southern Thailand = Islamic Jihad
It is not off topic either. All these conflicts are just battle fronts of the larger conflict.
I see the forest!
Morgaan Sinclair
"Sorry, GC1577 ....Posted twice by mistake."
Admit it...you did that purpose..
Just kidding.
Kosovo = Palestine = Kashmir = Chechnya = Xinjiang = Mindanao = Southern Thailand = Islamic Jihad
HEY, you left out Ossetia, Malmo, Birmingham, and southeastern Michigan!
The Jews where in Jewish territory (now called Israel) long before Islam ever came to be. So if a Palestinian's very distant ancestors came where born in this Jewish territory (Israel) before Christ, they were Jews or Pagans, not Muslims. If they where born in Israel after Christ they were Jews, Christian or Pagans. By right of succession the Muslims come in dead last.
As a matter of fact Islam has no claim anywhere, they are the last in line amongst the major religions.
How about an Israeli "Right of Return" to the areas around Medina from which Mo expelled/extterminated the Jewish tribes (history's first?? ethnic cleansing)????
Previewing your Comment
ibrahimX
"Yet further evidence that a substantial percentage of Robert's fans are fundamentalist Christians"
I am a deist?
"Rather than have peace established in the Middle East and deprive Islamic Supremacist of their complaint that US unfairly supports Israel, you would keep the status quo because of your BIBLE. How is that far removed from the actions of Islamic Supremacists?"
The only thing that will deprive Islamic Supremacist of an argument is when all the earth is ruled by islamic law. I support Israel, because they fight the same enemy as us. That is fair...and old as the hills.
I do not have to be fair to my enemy.
The history of Israel is a lesson to us all: never surrender an inch. Gaza and West Bank should not have existed in the first place.
I am glad to see Muslims on this site. Now all you need to do is some research outside of your Islamic teachings. In other words, get your facts straight. Oh wait you must have been reading this site for awhile so if you haven't learned the truth by now you never will. Or should I say you will forever refuse to see the truth.
Alarmed Pig Farmer
Here is a revised statment...
Islamic Jihad = X
X = any conflict on earth in which an Islamist element (funding or warriors) is involved.
GC1577 and special_guest
When we try to have a discussion about this, it winds up involving a great deal of time for JW staffers. Please respect my wishes about this. I cannot show Robert the respect on this that he deserves given the past problems if I respond to your posts on this issue.
Therefore, I would like to ask you in the kindest possible terms to stop this now and not to do it again.
I have not written a post about Kosovo since June, if memory serves, so your taunting me into a conversation is neither appropriate nor appreciated.
GC1577, you seem pretty sane. Can I have an agreement from you about this?
I wonder how many Muslims thought about this. Since Islam came after Judaism in the ME, are not many Muslims distant ancestors Jewish? Wonder if that makes them want to go out and kill themselves for having Jewish blood. I wonder if they think about the fact that they came from apes and pigs, after all isn't that what Muslims call Jews.
Someone ought to bring that one up at the next Jihadist meeting.
Therefore, I would like to ask you in the kindest possible terms to stop this now and not to do it again.
Jeez, what are you, a cop?
* 2:216 * 4:74 * 9:111 * 8:12 * 4:96 * 56:22 * 38:51 * 55:56 * 56:22 * 8:74 * 9:2 * 5:50 *
You're right, Comet. There are simply too many imminent Sharia locations to list. We must use mathematical symbols now...
I support Israel. They are fighting the most vicious amongst us. Only the most evil could kill as easily, as the Palestinians do. If I actually believed in Satan, the Palestianians (for the most part) would be his spawn.
I'm a deisitic empiricist: the only true monotheism.
/heh
Why should Israel be cut in half?
Why should Israel be the one that always gives and gets NOTHING BUT MURDER in return?
Why does the "palestinian" entity have to be contiguous?
Why does every President of the US feel so driven to undercut Israel?
So it is written, so shall it be.
To alarmed pig farmer: Here's a link to a very concise summary of Israel's troubled history:
www.jewishworldreview.com/0502/mideast_facts.asp -
I used to be annoyed by some preachy Christians until Muslims came along and compounded the aggression by geometric proportions.
I dont know if you guys know that one of George Bush's ancestors.. named George Bush in the 19th Century was one of the first Zionists.. even before there was a Zionist movement.
What a family legacy... to be among the first to aspire for a Jewish national homeland in the wastes long abandoned... and then to be responsible for the destruction of so many Jewish lives , if not the Jewish State itself.
It appears that America's mission has been fulfilled... catalyst for Zionism...incubator for the new Jewish State.. and now the unleashing of the coming evil by our recklessness and the compromises made for the maintenance of our wealth by our prostration to the Beast whose cup of oil we need to maintain our riches.
Averroes,
I the Moderate Muslim Palestinian exist, therefore I am.
Incredible!!!
You BOTH exist AND are?
Simultaneously, or alternatingly?
Do you have to pause if you want to chew a gum, or can you manage all three activities concurrently?
Alarmed,
Love that name. Here's a great summary of the lies spread about Israel. It's thirty-two pages, side by side.
Very good read, and should answer all your questions.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/pdf/BigLies.pdf
It's written by David Meir-Levi, a contributor to Frontpagemag.
Thx, I'll read it right now.
And Now from the Washington poat :
Israel and Jews should just offer themselves to butcher's knife of Islam
By Ghandis' grandson Arun (YES i know!)
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/arun_gandhi/2008/01/jewish_identity_in_the_past/all_comments.html
A man, who must discount the huge massacres of Hindus by the Arab muslims who attacked his own country and reigned havoc for centuries.
Averroes the 'moderate Pali Muslim'
You are a Palestinian? You are Arab. No different from Jordanian/Egyptian/Syrian/Iraqi/Saudi/Kuwaiti/Yemeni Arabs. Sure, you may be Sunni vs some of them being Shia, or you may have a different dialect from what's spoken in Riyadh, but believe me - that doesn't entitle you to any part of a non-Arab country.
Moderate? So would you be okay with Jews or Christians living in Judea, Samaria or Gaza, without fear of any threats from your thugs in Hamas, Fatah or Islamic Jihad? After all, Israel has a Muslim Arab population that enjoy all the benefits of Israeli citizenship (contrary to Dhimmi Carter's claims that they are an apartheid state), and they aren't fleeing in droves to Egypt or Jordan or Syria - much less PA occupied territory. So why would the building of Jewish settlements in, say Jericho, Nablus or Hebron cause any heartburn to Palis? Even if that existed, such Jews should be able to live without fear under a PA regime, right?
Sure you exist, but the label you choose to affix on yourself would be as good as someone saying that he's from Jewish republic of Egypt.
I've defended Bush on a lot of iffy matters—perhaps he has intel we don't know about or something—but this is absolutely indefensible.
Has he dipped into the tainted peanuts Carter sent him?
Let the Paleostein Age people—Egyptians and Jordanians return to those countries. Palestine is just a puppet of Middle East powers in their continuing war with Israel. They can be at war and maintain the facade of innocence.
Bush is a tragedy for us all.
Such a stupid man being POTUS at such a time in history!
On another note: why would moderators here allow a poster assuming the moniker of a mass-murderer (Ibrahimx) to post distractive drivel?
I see what others above are saying about a contiguous Pali state, but it doesn't necessarily imply that Israel has to be made contiguous. Knowing the evil President P___c-h__r (Thank you, Whoopie), it's just as easy for them to hand over the entire Negev to the Palis, thereby making both states contiguous: all that needs to happen is to expel all Jews from the Negev to either Central Israel (the 9 mile wide corridor) or Galilee. But given the precedent in Gaza and now proposed solution in Judea & Samaria, why is that unthinkable? Despicable, yep, but unthinkable? Not with this ass-wipe that we have as president.
Bush's trip ought to be tagged the 'Endlosung tour' - or the Final Solution tour - one that is symbolic in more ways than one.
How can two territories with no common border form a contiguous state? Someone is being professionally stupid here. The best they can hope for is a binary state.
Posted by: Monty at January 10, 2008 4:27 PM
http://xrl.us/Israel2008
km
My thoughts, exactly!!!
Book recommendation:
"Defending the West" by Ibn Warraq.
He takes apart Edward Said as that liar has deserved since the day he learned to talk.
Alarmed Pig Farmer,
Here is another good resource for the history of the "palestinian" mess.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/
Very moving slide show presentation
If he's so set on 'Palestinian' Arab Muslims having 'a contiguous state' - they can have Gaza, grubby old Gaza. NOTHING else. Just Gaza.
They can have NOT ONE INCH of Jerusalem, Jerusalem the Golden, Yerushalayim, the one and only, the incomparable, the city that YHWH calls his 'bride'.
And Arab Muslims have no right whatever to the Judean Hills, or to Samaria. They used it to launch a war of aggression against Israel. They got beaten. The territory now belongs to the defender, Israel, who has most impressive ancient and manifestly demonstrable historic right to it, as well.
Every 'Palestinian' Arab Muslim currently inhabiting the holy Jewish heartland of the Judean Hills, with its ancient JEWISH/ HEBREW sacred sites (Rachel's tomb, the Tomb of the Patriarchs) and Samaria (also with ancient Hebrew sacred sites: Shiloh; Shechem; Joseph's tomb; and where the remnant indigenous Samaritans were treated most HORRIBLY by the invading and occupying imperialist Muslims, such that they were virtually exterminated - see Bat Yeor), should be evicted and go live in Gaza.
Gaza has a port. Gaza has farmable land. The 'Palestinian' Muslims can damn well learn to live within their means, off their own work. They'd be better off than the dhimmi Jews ever were, in any of the hideous overcrowded ghettos in which they were forced to live, within the Ummah, for 1350 intolerable years.
Gaza City can be the 'Palestinian' Muslim state. After all: there are other city-states in the world. Monaco, for example.
'Palestinian' Arab/ised Christians from Gaza can leave it and either migrate, or go live in Israel, provided they promise to renounce antisemitism and antizionism, and live as law-abiding citizens. Ditto for the 'Palestinian' Arab/ised Christians in Judea and Samaria - they can leave if they want, or they can stay there as non-Jewish citizens of the Jewish state of Israel, just as their brethren in, for example, Jerusalem and Nazareth and Haifa already do.
That might work.
And if the Gazan Muslims of the Islamic citystate of Gaza launched a war against Israel, then they get flattened, and lose Gaza, too.
A final thought. Australian lighthorseman and diarist, Ion L Idriess, in his wonderful book "The Desert Column", which described the greater part of the rollback of the Ottoman empire from 'Palestine' in 1917, uses a very telling phrase about those 'Palestinian Arabs', in particular, the Bedouin.
He calls them "the ghouls of the battlefield". And he had very, very good reason - ample proof, over and over - for doing so.
We all know the Palestinians will never let peace happen and so does Bush. The Palestinians have two thirds of Europe, many in America, and all of the ME on their side. You have to show the world the Palestinians do not want peace. The mistake he made was not giving the Israelis the green light for an all out war. The world gave Bush no space in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The most amazing part is, the world thinks it's ok for Palestinians to teach children hatred enough to kill and the killing of innocent Israelis and anyone in between them. They approved it with their silence of and justifications for the bombings. They approve of it with the continued aid.
Stop all aid and let Israel loose to survive.
Here, in these days of darkness, I would like to share a couple of passages from Idriess' book.
In the first, Idriess describes the taking of Beersheba by cavalry charge (This scene is the climax of the classic black-and-white film, "Forty Thousand Horsemen").
I cannot now read it without weeping, knowing what was at stake: what this action, by young men, of my own nation, many of them the simple sons of farmers and tradesmen, made possible. And now the likes of President Bush are going to throw it away, and hand 'Palestine' - eretz Israel - back to its murderous Muslim destroyers!
Apologies for the length of this, but it is worth it!
BEERSHEBA, November 1917: Idriess’ account, as seen from nearby.
'The Deset Column', Page 251:
“Then someone shouted, pointing through the sunset towards invisible headquarters. There, at the steady trot, was regiment after regiment, squadron after squadron, coming, coming, coming! It was just half-light, they were distinct yet indistinct. The Turkish guns blazed at those hazy horsemen, but they came steadily on.
“At two miles distant they emerged from clouds of dust, squadrons of men and horses taking shape. All the Turkish guns around Beersheba must have been directed at the menace then. Captured Turkish and German officers have told us that even then they never dreamed that mounted troops would be madmen enough to attempt rushing infantry redoubts protected by machine guns and artillery.
“At a mile distant their thousand hooves were stuttering thunder, coming at a rate that frightened a man – they were an awe-inspiring sight, galloping through the red haze – knee to knee and horse to horse – the dying sun glinting on bayonet points. Machine guns and rifle fire just roared, but the 4th Brigade galloped on.
“We heard shouts among the thundering horses, saw balls of flame amongst those hooves – horse after horse crashed, but the massed squadrons thundered on. We laughed in delight when the shells began bursting/ p. 252/ behind them telling that that the gunners could not keep their range, then suddenly the men ceased to fall and we knew instinctively that the Turkish infantry, wild with excitement and fear, had forgotten to lower their rifle sights and the bullets were flying overhead. The Turks did the same to us at El Quatia.
“The last half mile was a berserk gallop with the squadrons in magnificent line, a heart-throbbing sight as they plunged up the slope, the horses leaping the redoubt trenches – my glasses showed me the Turkish bayonets thrusting up for the bellies of the horses – one regiment flung themselves from the saddle – we heard the mad shouts as the men jumped down into the trenches, a following regiment thundered over another redoubt, and to a triumphant roar of voices and hooves was galloping down the half-mile slope right into the town.
“Then came a whirlwind of movement from all over the field, galloping batteries – dense dust from mounting regiments – a rush as troops poured for the opening in the gathering dark – mad, mad excitement – terrific explosions from down in the town.
“Beersheba had fallen.”
(And it is possible to argue that with that taking of Beersheba came the beginning of the end of Turkish Muslim rule, indeed, of Muslim rule, period, in the Holy Land.
What prayers of hundreds of thousands of suffering and murdered dhimmis, Jews and Christians, what cries for justice over the centuries, what avenging angels, rode on the shoulders of the Australians, tipping the balance of battle that day? Who knows?)
pythagoras's theorem: Muslim efforts to benefit Muslims earn non-Muslims ABSOLUTELY NO POINTS from Islam.
Corollary: Non-Muslim efforts to kick Islam earn lots of points, as well as respect from Islam.
It is worth noting that Muslims dont seem to give much trouble to China, or for that matter Russia under Putin.
I have tried to avoid ad-homonym online, particularly when it comes to the sitting President of the United States. I have always believed that we we must show respect for the office. I did the same in regards to President Clinton (And that required a herculean effort on my part.) Now, I have had enough.
The President is a dangerous fool. Yes, he is well-meaning, but he is a dangerous fool none-the-less.
Morgan Sinclair Said: Those foreign donations are by and large coming from the United States, and yet you engage in jihad against us. We should not give you another penny. Maybe then you'd go back and dig up those great trades that used to make the Palestinian people among the best craftspeople on earth
Maybe use those greenhouses purchased and given (and promptly trashed by your cohorts) as a gift to the Palestinian people when Israel left GAZA, for something other than tunneling into Israel. Like, I don't know, maybe grow some food to feed your people?
And now, here is Idriess' description of a few of the Jewish communities that he observed, in the land of Israel, in 1917.
The Desert Column: Chapter 50, Page 183:
"I think this is the 17th (December, 1917). Yesterday we rode by numbers of vividly pretty little red-roofed towns. The inhabitants are very fair skinned, mostly Jews. They are by far the most cleanly people we have yet met. They are very hospitable although they do charge us a hefty/ p. 184 / price for brown bread, honey and tobacco.
"LOTS OF THEM HAVE HAD A HARD TIME FROM THE TURKS. THEY SEEM TO LIVE BETWEEN TWO DEVILS, THE TURK AND THE ARAB. APPARENTLY THE TURK PREVENTS THE ARAB FROM MASSACRING THEM OUTRIGHT, BECAUSE THE JEWS ARE A VERY HANDY PEOPLE TO SQUEEZE TAXES FROM…. [My emphasis added. Thus this Australian journalist and bushman, Trooper 358 of the Australian Light Horse, sums up, in three simple sentences, the misery of Jewish dhimmitude there in their very own ancestral eretz Israel, as invaded-and-occupied by the Muslims].
Again:
"Distantly we see the city roofs of ‘Jaffa the beautiful’ – very pretty in its hills and trees and orchards, even at this distance…
Some of our boys got wine yesterday from the [non-Muslim, obviously!] inhabitants of the little town near by, and things are a bit lively. I think the town is Richon.
"Yesterday we rode through the place along a narrow road, the inhabitants in such queer garments lining the roads and shady lanes to stare at these brown sleeveless soldiers. We must have seemed queer fighting men to them for they stared as if they had expected to see supermen, not rough-clad Australians. I don’t think they could realize that we actually were the men who had driven back their taskmaster of centuries [the Turk].
"They seem also to be on the verge of something they cannot believe, cannot understand; they tremble when they whisper of Jerusalem. It appears there is some prophecy, centuries old, that one day Jerusalem will fall and will be taken from the Turk or from whatever infidel [here, by 'infidel', Idriess seems to mean, non-Jew] holds it.”
[Remember: Idriess wrote this in 1917, and published it in 1932].
“We passed a quaint little building with ‘Hotel’ prominently on a signboard, and other signs in Greek. A fair Hebe was leaning/ p. 185 over the veranda with bared arms and a winning smile [so: not a Muslim]. She had won, too, for the place was full of officers of the forces taking occupation, others seemed to be arriving per horse and lorry every minute.
“These [Jewish; and Christian?] towns have plenty of flocks, plenty of wine, plenty of bread; the people are clean and civilized. We are coming into orchard towns now. The green oranges have given the whole regiment the tummy-ache. Reminds me of the melons of the Bardawil.
“…A beautiful period of our ride was after crossing the Wadi Hanein. We rode through tall mimosa hedges, in perfumed bloom, into the colony of Nachalat (the heritage of Reuben). Crowds of white men, women and children flocked the scented roads shouting: “Shallome! Shallome! Shallome!”.
That was 1917.
And now, in 2008, President Bush, lining up with the EU and all the other deluded fools, bamboozled by Arab Muslim propaganda, is proposing to throw away everything that English, and Australian, soldiers sacrificed their lives for in 1917 - the rollback of the Empire of Islam; everything that the Jews fought and sacrificed for, in 1948, 1967, 1973 - the very life and freedom of Jewish people on their ancestral Jewish land; and force Israel, essentially, to commit suicide, by handing all the high ground, the military advantage, to a bunch of murderous fanatical arab/ised Muslims who have proclaimed, repeatedly, their intention of annihilating the Jews.
Morgaan Sinclair
It is not taunting, and I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. I was trying to be funny...
Ok I won't use Kosovo....let us just use southern Thailand as an example. The point I am making is: The same elements that drive a jihadist in Gaza are the same for jihadist in Yala. By giving up land in Israel, it only fuels other jihadist seperatist movements around the world. It proves that it works. It proves god is on their side..at least in their minds.
Bush, however, thinks this will somehow make the Islamic world like us. That is what he (and many others) think will occur in places like Kosovo or Palestine. We don't have to be friends with everyone or be fair with everyone on this planet. We have a choice in who our friends are. I don't want to be friends with the Islamic world..anymore then I would want to be friends with Nazis or slave owners.
Conflict is not always a bad thing.
It would seem that Bush is trying to apply the same destructive naivete to Israel that he has to Iraq and Afghanistan. Luckily, he's a lame duck, which should help save Israel from becoming a dead duck.
It's really about politicians leaving office wanting to leave some "legacy" behind them. Bush wants to leave with people saying he created peace.
After he's gone, he'll forget about the shambles that results. What's important to him is to get some meaningless scraps of paper signed and a handshake photo.
Pitiful but there it is, in all its flawed humanity.
Sad
I'd like to here Ann Coulter's take on this, it might be interesting.
I have mentioned this on other forums and so I will also mention it here. Peace is a wonderful thing, but just as it takes two to really make a war, it takes two sides to make a peace. Now since Israel and the "palestinians" are both forms of democracy, peace can only come about by a wish for peace among the populace of those two communities.
It is a folly for those leaders to push for a peace when it is clear that peace is not wanted, and wether or not our president pays billions to whoever today is the leader of the palestinian arabs will not make peace.
The elections held in Gaza should make it crystal clear that the palestinian arabs do not want peace, the clear choice was between palestinian leadership who would negotiate and make concessions, or at least SAY they would make some concessions, and those palestinian arabs (hamas) who said they would engage in any sort of filthy crime to make sure that there would be no peace.
The best course would be for Israel to push for a vote, a test of the wills of the people, let the arabs and the Israelis both have a plebiscite on wether their leaders should pursue peace or war.
Without a clear vote by the people, the only thing that will occur will be that at some future date hamas or some other terrorist entity will take control of the palestinian state and the negotiated borders will used just a springboard for more war.
If a vote occurs, and the palestinians vote for peace, then go ahead with negotiations, but as it stands now, it seems to me that the arabs would rather be blasted, live in poverty, have their children commit murder-suicide rather than acquiesce to the existance of Jewish people living in their ancestral homeland.
And now, in 2008, President Bush, lining up with the EU and all the other deluded fools, bamboozled by Arab Muslim propaganda, ....
dumbledoresarmy,
You're being way too kind. They're not bamboozled. They're cowed. They've experienced more than thirty years of murder and threats and economic blackmail and they've given in.
Bush is joining them because of the worst word ever invented: legacy. I appreciated his tenacity when he refused to meet with the PLO government that rejected peace and in favor of bombs. Now he's joined the "talk is better" pack. Of course with Jimmy Baker and many others on both sides of the aisle bought and paid for by the Saudis, Bush's price tag might have been met and he is joining the other vassals. (Just how much did the Saudi prince give to Bush's library fund?)
Great Comet ...
I asked you to stop talking to me about it, and you manage to mention it again twice in your last post.
Please stop writing posts to me. I do not wish to converse with you.
Thank you.
cc: Robert Spencer.
Great Comet ...
I asked you to stop talking to me about it, and you manage to mention it again twice in your last post.
Please stop writing posts to me. I do not wish to converse with you.
Thank you.
cc: Robert Spencer.
The President should have followed Field Marshal Allenby's advice that usually the best thing to do when confronted by a difficult situation is absolutely nothing. Mr. Bush should not be pushing for a Palestinian state because if ever there were a people who didn't deserve their own country, it's the Palestinian Arabs.
And shame on the larger Arab world as well for using their fellow Arabs as a pawn for generations in a political chess game designed to destroy the Israeli state. Deep and eternal shame on the entire Arab world. I have never come across a major people in all of history so self-pitying, so dysfunctional and such a burden to the rest of the world as are the Arabs.
Final comment. I think the State Department, which Secretary Rice has not controlled well at all, is ultimately behind this latest stupidity, though the President bears ultimate responsibility here. State is full of Arabists who have gone native and this needs to end. Foggy Bottom should be cleaned out in the next Presidency. And this won't happen if any Democrat gets elected President and it's even doubtful that it will occur should a Republican get in. I think Giuliani would be the best bet here to rid the State Department of way too many Arabists there, and even he would have a hell of a time trying to accomplish this.
I have mentioned this on other forums and so I will also mention it here. Peace is a wonderful thing, but just as it takes two to really make a war, it takes two sides to make a peace. Now since Israel and the "palestinians" are both forms of democracy, peace can only come about by a wish for peace among the populace of those two communities.
It is a folly for those leaders to push for a peace when it is clear that peace is not wanted, and wether or not our president pays billions to whoever today is the leader of the palestinian arabs will not make peace.
The elections held in Gaza should make it crystal clear that the palestinian arabs do not want peace, the clear choice was between palestinian leadership who would negotiate and make concessions, or at least SAY they would make some concessions, and those palestinian arabs (hamas) who said they would engage in any sort of filthy crime to make sure that there would be no peace.
The best course would be for Israel to push for a vote, a test of the wills of the people, let the arabs and the Israelis both have a plebiscite on wether their leaders should pursue peace or war.
Without a clear vote by the people, the only thing that will occur will be that at some future date hamas or some other terrorist entity will take control of the palestinian state and the negotiated borders will used just a springboard for more war.
If a vote occurs, and the palestinians vote for peace, then go ahead with negotiations, but as it stands now, it seems to me that the arabs would rather be blasted, live in poverty, have their children commit murder-suicide rather than acquiesce to the existance of Jewish people living in their ancestral homeland.
Bush is continuing the legacy of his Nazi supporting grandfather Prescott.
Bush is trying to recreate the "final solution" by forcing the arch-dhimmi Israeli kapo government to commit national suicide.
Apologies. I am double-posting and don't have any idea why. It's not intention.
Morgaan Sinclair said
Don't drag me into your drama du jour. I only asked about a misplaced apostrophe, apparently from a posting that is no longer there. Why would a discussion about apostrophes involve a great deal of time for JW staffers? Do they have to get the ladder out to reach the Funk and Wagnall's off the top shelf in the pipe-smoke-laden study?
Whatever.
The initiative is bound to fail, but flailing about politically to pull a solution out of the hat will do further damage. I think external interferers in the process should have clear goals that are not dependent on bartering interests between the two sides.
How about a peaceful, stable and permanent partition of interests that come as an externally composed compromise that endanger nothing from either camp except some unacceptable doctrines (such as the goal of eliminating the state of Israel or -- for comparison purposes only -- the ejection of all palestinian arabs to Jordan)?
What I have in mind is:
1. Forget Gaza as part of a deal. Partition them off and force them into submission to international will by isolation and giving not an inch until violence is eschewed. 1(a) if necessary barter the Golan Heights in exchange for valuable territory or a DMZ that will improve the security situation.
2. Extract permanent peace commitments from both sides -- neither will initiate military aggression, and strongly suppress any such action by groups within their constituency.
3. The only alterations to current borders to be zero-sum: equal areas of equal values exchanged, and subject to the following condition: Straighten the dang border out! The Fractal-like boundary we see today is a recipe for eternal aggression. Good fences make good neighbors.
4. Two sovereign states within a federated union. The federation does not interfere in internal affairs of the two states but creates a stronger political association between Israel and Palestine than between Palestine and the other Arab states. It is clear that permanent peace cannot come until Palestinians know that they depend on Israel as a partner, and the paradigm shifts to cooperation based on shared interests. Elected officials at both levels. The federation negotiates future changes towards increased interactions between the two states based upon changes in social, religious and political climates. Like a mini-EU that deals with different dimensions of international affairs than purely economic.
5. (Some won't like this...) Partition Jerusalem off from both regions as a neutral common zone, and demilitarize it. NO weaponry of any description apart from authorized military and police. Jerusalem acts as an autonomous regional center housing the seats of both governments and of the Federation (Think Washington DC but with a huge security curtain around the periphery and a large private police force -- and containing the seats of government for TWO sovereign states). Extreme sanctions against any government, individual or organization involved with any violations within the common zone. No development or exchange of property within the zone without approval from a joint tribunal.
6. Once final borders are fixed, require BOTH sides to maintain the entegrity of a security corridor and the external borders with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. Again, good fences make good neighbors.
Hmmm I posted then got an error message so I reposted and now I have two posts showing, my apologies for the redundancy.
A little early, but "Dub'ya" has just clinched the "2008 Dhimmi of the Year" title and should go on to next higher level and compete with "Jimmi-the-Dhimmi" for new category - "All Time Greatest US Dhimmi"
Strange -no? "Republicans" behving just like
Democrats" (or should that be the other way round -or does it really make one bit of difference)?
"Funk and Wagnall's..."
-- from a posting above
Mr. Feynman, surely you jest.
Ian,
My post didn't go up but I think you're right. I wish presidents would stop thinking about "legacy". If they just did their jobs their place in history would be assured.
It's my opinion that Clinton decided he needed something besides Lewinsky and so focused on bringing peace to people who didn't want it. (If they had, the Oslo accords would have been more than a document.) For the last two years of his presidency we heard about legacy.
Bush has fallen into the same trap. Iraq appeared to be falling apart and so he set about creating something, anything, that would look good to historians.
I wonder if that's our future - presidents trying to best those that came before. From FDR to Ronald Reagan, the US was in an existential fight with naziism and then communism. Once it fell apart their successors needed to find fresh game. Being a caretaker president is no fun, even though it's an honorable position to be in. You've been given something good. Keep it going. That's not enough for these guys. Their egos are too inflated.
special_guest ...
My apologies ... I confused you with someone else. And yes, apparently JW removed the post referred to.
Jorge Dhimmya Bin Bush - the epitome of après moi le deluge.
And BTW special_guest ...
The post referred to re: apostrophes was a little rip-off artist trying to plug his JW rip-off website here for a bunch of free advertising. My tease of his was that if he were going to try to rip-off free advertising from a site that has to pay for a huge server and a ton of bandwidth, the least he could do was present decent grammar and usage.
But ... yes ... you missed it.
Feynman ... ROFLOL ...
BTW, Hugh, a wonderful post above. It made my mind happy.
I do want to make clear that I agree that apostrophes are important. Punctuation is next to godliness.
My point of contention was limited solely to the choice of dictionary. If it isn't the O.E.D. or Webster's 2nd, it doesn't count. If it is the O.E.D., and Webster's 2nd, and I disagree with it on a point of modern usage, there is a possibility, admittedly remote, that it still won't count.
In the next article down, the reply from Bat Ye'or to David Frum describes the lesson that Bush and Rice haven't learned regarding "... [the false logic of] pretending there are two alleged extremes ... [and saying] "the truth is in the middle." [But] truth is not found at a linear distance between two [manufactured] extremes. Between the Nazi genocidal policy toward the Jews and the victims’ affirmation of their right to live there is no middle-way solution. Would we discuss how many Jews it would be right for the Nazis to exterminate? Between slavery and human equality, there is no middle position..."
Why should we push Israel to negotiate peace terms with these "Palestinians" yet again when none of the prior negotiated terms have been kept? Mr. Bush and Condi: In the name of civilization and the survival of the West, shaddup already about Israel giving up yet more security! Just because you're certain in your heart of hearts that God will never abandon Israel, doesn't mean that you have the right to force them to abandon all self-interest. You wanna give anything away, try Washington DC while you and your family still live there.
This "I want to make you give away what I myself have no claim on and no authority over, because (1) I truly believe I hold the moral high ground and (2) I want to prove I can accomplish more with your resources than you can" sounds way too fuzzy-liberal for a self-described Republican, anyway...
Once final borders are fixed, require BOTH sides to maintain the entegrity of a security corridor and the external borders with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. Again, good fences make good neighbors.
Archimedes2,
And who will enforce this deal? What happens if one side breaks it? Would you wall off the entire federation? Bordering so many Arab lands, the Palestinians would have plausible deniability in the event of an attack. Can't you hear the protestations from a Palestinian government?
We didn't do it! It was the Syrians! We need more money to police our border. Give it to us.
The same question holds with regard to Gaza. Bordering Egypt and the Med, they have ample room to maneuver. Who will keep them at home? Unless you want to wall them in completely (no one leaves for any reason) what can be done?
As for Jerusalem, authorized military and police means a lot of weaponry. It won't take long for it to fall into the wrong hands. Who goes in to fix the problem?
Uh, Webster's? Oxford? Merriam-Webster? American Heritage?
What really happened in the middle-east
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09pmTh64vD8
Condi has said that the Israeli anti-terror checkpoints are like the racist restrictions in the old south. She was instrumental in pressuring Israel into giving up the Philidelphi corridor with Egypt, which has turned into a major weapons-smuggling route. I used to think that her outrageous statements were State Department tripe, but now I know Bush is just as idiotic. He's a very well-meaning idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.
Oh, 'twasn't me who brought up Funk and Wagnalls! I wouldn't have such a thing in my house; it would give me the creeps to have it on the shelf.
However, I was the one who teased the little rip-off artist about the naughty apostrophe. I figure that if he's going to use JW for free advertising of his JW-ripoff site, he should at least use standard English while he's doing it.
To the O.E.D. and Webster's 2nd, I add the Bedford Handbook, the AP Stylebook and the Chicago Manual of Style (15th edition). That seems to be enough to keep me amused.
BTW, Hugh, I think you may be the smartest person I have ever seen or even heard of, and I read every word you write. You have changed my mind about a lot of things, more than I think you could possibly imagine. Thank you.
You never can really know what you get for a president until they are in office for awhile, i would rather have a president that walked softly and carried a big stick, these new age politians have this global economy crap down to a science, it seems to me that we were doing just fine until our politicians and big business sold the " jobs that americans don't want " to other countries, follow the money trail as they say in the movies, there has to be money being made with this push to provide the killers in palestine a staging ground , i mean country, for what everyone else senses as a base for killing innocent people by the arabs
Treaty of Paris in 1783
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Treaty_of_Paris_by_Benjamin_West_1783.jpg
Now why would the British not want to pose for this important event?
tisk tisk...
One sixth of 1% for the Jews is too much for the "palestinians". They have to have it all.
I believe that a multiple posting can occur only when the POST button is pressed more than once before the screen has refreshed. If someone is that impatient, try the refresh button instead. A thread like this one with lots and lots of traffic will be slow to refresh at times.
Or hit Back, go to the previous page and then re-visit this page using the previous link. Sometimes, even the refresh takes longer.
"You {Hugh} have changed my mind about a lot of things, more than I think you could possibly imagine. Thank you."
Did I change your mind about the causes of WW1 as you stated back in April, 2007.
If you're waiting for your post you can also go to another article on JW and come right back and usually your post is right there.
I'd just like to add that I consider myself a conservative because I believe in limited government, but that doesn't mean it has to be of limited intelligence.
The stuff Condi and Bush come up with make John Edwards sound like de Tocqueville.
Robert has pointed out that Hillary's web site and statements seem to omit anything about Islam, but Hillary did well in elite schools. She might figure things out. Who knows?
Pelayo ...
No, dear, you didn't change my mind about that. But that doesn't mean I don't read and enjoy your posts for their many very intelligent comments.
Cheers, M
Oh Hugh, surely you must mean Webster 3, that was so much of an improvement on Webster 2, and was praised and used extensively by V.V. Nabokov, inter alia.
'Palestinians' introduced the world to international terror of unprecedented savagery and randomness 35 years ago. Ma'alot school massacre (wikipedia it) Munich, etc etc. They hate us Americans and always have, they danced in the streets on 9/11. As the vanguard of Jihad they have become the most degraded, evil people on earth. They create nothing but death and rage. They blow up their own children. At the verge of having everything they supposedly wanted they threw it all away and plunged into yet another 'intifida' and spread suicide terror of such savagery the memories still sicken human beings.
They 'deserve' a state the way Satan 'deserves' his own state.
Morgaan, The next time the Military Channel or the History Channel has the "First World War" episode titled "To Arms" watch it. It's very accurate.
PMK, I tried what you suggested and it is better and faster than using the browser's refresh button.
We have a choice in who our friends are. I don't want to be friends with the Islamic world..anymore then I would want to be friends with Nazis or slave owners.
greatcomet,
Globalism is a huge culprit here. During the cold war we not only had two armed camps, we had two trading blocs. We didn't trade with the enemy and we certainly didn't help them advance, absent industrial and military spying on their part. Today multinational corporations move not just wealth but knowledge out of our hands and into theirs. We may not want to have a beer with them but we both have to follow the same trade rules. We are losing our sovereignty bit by bit.
Serge Trikovic says it much better than I:
The United States will be unable to stem the tide of Islam in the twenty-first century unless it abandons globalism and begins to treat Moslem states as potential enemies whose strategic assets and importance must be reduced before it is too late.
kuchuklambat--
Some may be misled by your joke, so for them, and for the record: Nabokov never used Webster's 3rd. The O.E.D. (first edition) was a late, Montreux, arrival, and seldom used. Webster's 2nd was in constant use in the American (and Swiss) years, as the four volumes of Dal' were in the emigre years.
Pelayo ...
All right. If I see it coming 'round, I will do that.
PMK;
It seems only reasonable to believe that Bush is not this stupid but is marching to the sounds of a different drummer. Like the two pathetic losers before him, Clinton and Carter, he has no clue who the enemy is. On one hand he spends the blood of our young in Afghanistan and Iraq yet he feeds the same enemy in Gaza who surround him like a mob calling for his head. Islamic states are enemies of America in whatever disguise they wear. The tenants of Islam are completely opposite the tenants of our founding fathers, our constitution and our culture. The puss that has arisen in Gaza (Hamas) is the political representation of Islam. There is no medicine or compromise that will cure it. It must be cut out in its entirety. The Muslims must be left to themselves. Israel should not give in an inch to demands of the traitor, Bush. Let the Palis drown in the sewer of hatred that they created.
So, the imbecile-in-chief wants a contiguous 'palestinian' state and, one would imagine in the tiny presidential cranium, a contiguous Israel. So either he flunked high-school geography, or high-school geometry, or both.
I stand corrected, Hugh (was not attempting a joke), although Brian Boyd is less absolute than you are on Nabokov's usage of the 3rd, cf http://www.ada.auckland.ac.nz/ada117ann.htm and search for "Webster’s Third"
Isn't it January 20th we get Bush out of office?
What - "Next year" - argh!
OK, I guess we need to keep writing those letters to newspapers, standing at pro-Israel rallies etc...
PMK
I agree...
The bright side is most of those international corporations involved with Islamic nations revolve around the oil trade. If we can reduce or get rid of the dependence on Arabian oil, we will be in a much better position to defend ourselves from jihad. That is the key in my mind. It is the only way we can lose this war. Money means more influence with elected leaders. Just look at Bush and this silly “highway to hell”. He is only putting pressure on Israel, because, the Saudi Arabians (and other Arab states with oil) and the corporations that do business with them, are putting pressure on him to do something. They use lobbyist, advocacy groups, political insiders, donations, advisors, and more to push their agenda. This all cost money and where do they get the money from?
Once the Arabian oil trade is stopped, they will lose most of their influence, protection, and most of all their money. No money...no Douglas Hooper.
It's only about 25 miles from the eastern tip of Gaza to the West bank: let them dig a pedestrian footway.
Infidel33,
The 1947 U.N. Partition Plan ALSO attempted the impossible (TWO CONTIGUOUS STATES)--Jewish Palestinians [there ONCE, at least, were such persons] accepted the plan, Arab Palestinians rejected it. (Just as the Arabs rejected the 1937 Peel Commission Plan--and THAT plan only gave Jews the Coastal Plain and part of Galilee!)
Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
kuchuklambat --
VN may have owned the 3rd, but it was clear that he used, favored, or possibly, as Zainab Bahrani (how does someone like that get along with the ghost of James Beck?) and so many others nowadays would say, "privileged" Webster's 2nd.
The link you give above, clicked upon, does not un-support this contention:
In a discussion of the definition of "lip" given in "Ada" the following is noted:
"The Ardis library, like Nabokov’s much more meager one in the Montreux Palace Hotel, appears to contain the 1957 Webster’s Second International Dictionary, Unabridged, first published 1934, Nabokov’s own favorite (see 4.10n) and most-bethumbed English-language dictionary (which he quotes at SO 308, and refers to at SO 251, “the second unabridged edition (1960) of Webster’s, which I really must urge Mr. Wilson to acquire,” and SO 253, “Webster’s great dictionary,” and at PF 166, “a Bible-like Webster”)."
Then the Webster's 2nd definition of "lip" is given:
“1. Either of the two fleshy folds which surround the orifice of the mouth in man and many other animals. In man the lips are organs of speech essential to certain articulations. Hence, chiefly in pl., figuratively, this part of the mouth considered as an organ of speech. ‘Thine own lips testify against thee.’ Job xv.6.
“2. Either of a pair of fleshy folds surrounding an orifice.”
And then, finally, the fact that Nabokov owned Webster's 3rd, that repeats as its 5th definition of lip the second one given in Webster's 2nd:
"But Nabokov also owned Webster’s Third International Dictionary, Unabridged (1961ff.), whose fifth definition of lip is also “either of a pair of fleshy folds surrounding an orifice.”
That hardly proves Nabokov used the Third. He owned it, and he owned Webster's 2nd, but it was Webster's 2nd he turned to, and used.
I see that in the New Russia, by the way, Dal' is being reprinted like crazy. Old copies once cost a fortune; now you can buy it for nothing at all.
Peace, Hugh, I did not mean to imply that the link unsupports your statement, and I found support for it in other places as well.
I did hope to spare jihadwatch readers Van Veen's ribald punsterism but there you go...
greatcomet,
The multis are involved in more than just oil. They sell arms and airplanes. Then there's Dubai Ports World, which should be kept out of every Western port. The corporations sell technology - does Microsoft gives them special browsers to control internet access? Then there's the nuclear specialists. All that "peaceful power" Iran and (in time) the Arab countries want has to come from somewhere. Since the Arabs don't have the capacity they'll rely on European or American companies. We buy from China. China uses our capital to undermine us in the Islamic world.
The list goes on.
With the price of oil as high as it is and due to go higher, OPEC will have ample time to replenish its bank accounts before we wean ourselves from their oil. Cash is all they need in the global economy. If we won't sell to them, someone else will.
Getting off oil is something we are capable of doing but it's not a quick fix and it's not the whole cure.
"Bush calls for contiguous Palestinian state to be established within the year"
Excerpt from Palestinian Facts link:
"First of all, the Palestinian Arabs do have a state. Its called Jordan."
"During the League of Nations Mandate period, the land originally set aside by the League of Nations as the Palestine Mandate was supposed to provide for a national home for the Jewish people. The British were given the authority to manage the Mandate and help the Jews make the transition to independence. Instead, almost 80% of the original Mandate land was carved out and arbitrarily made into the Arab country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). In all the land of the Mandate east of the Jordan River it was "No Jews Allowed". West of the Jordan, the 20% part of the Mandate, the British restricted Jewish immigration and gradually adopted policies that were more and more pro-Arab. Palestinian Arabs are the majority of the population of Jordan even today.
All of Israel today, and the Jewish lands historically called Judea and Samaria (now the West Bank) plus Gaza are entirely within the 20% slice of the British Mandate left over after the creation of Transjordan. The British Mandate Overview page gives a table with the details of this geographical distribution of the Mandate lands."
Read it all: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_whynostate.php
"spare jihadwatch readers Van Veen's ribald punsterism...
Van Veen wasn't the only one. Other invented narrators, long before Van Veen, were dab hands at the same thing, including Kinbote and, especially, Humbert the Bold:
"Rastleniem zanimalsya Charlie Hol'ms; ya zhe zanimayus' rasteniem."
I could fill up the page with other examples.
Morgaan, The "To Arms" episode will be on tomorrow (1-11). The bad news is it will be at 5:00 am Eastern.
PMK
Foreign oil costs us $1bn a day, 1/2 of the balance of payments deficit.
However, the Saudis have already let us know that if our demand decreases, we'll need to give them MASSIVE foreign aid.
However, it's not going to matter, because China's bought up all the drilling rights to Kazakhstan and made deals with the Saudis, so they should be sitting pretty for awhile.
The looming problem is China. Right now the average Chinese has a footprint 1/5 the size of the American one for carbon. But they are opening ONE COAl-BURNING POWER PLANT A DAY and building eight-lane highways across the country. Already the drift of smoke from China is choking people in Seattle. As the Chinese footprint grows to match the American one, the atmosphere is in real trouble. And remember that there is a 15-20 year delay in the acidification of the oceans on account of it. That's why scientists are so scared now, because they know there is a major jolt "in the pipeline" that it's hard to convince people about because they're not feeling it at present. And this is no longer modeling; it's data.
We have two crucial problems and they both revolve around oil. Or, put another way, oil is the best solution.
Get off oil and the carbon problem stops in time. Don't, and we are going to be spending like crazy trying to stay afloat as a species.
And taking $1bn a day from the Saudis, who are spending liberally to spread Wahhabism, will definitely make them feel it some.
But what an oil-free technology (like the auto mechanical compressed-air engine that you fill up at the TIRE AIR stop for $5 a TANK -- it will come out in France and India in late 2008) really does is that it STOPS the need for oil WORLDWIDE. That takes Chinese oil consumption off the gameboard OPEC. And THAT is a huge change.
There are a couple of engines that are remarkable not only for cars, but for home HVAC that are completely OFF THE GRID. Meaning, you make all your home's energy, and you plug your car into your home supply.
Now THAT will do two things: make the jihadists crazy that all their money is disappearing and with it their culture (true), and it will stop the looming environmental crisis from getting any worse. We won't get out of all of it, even if we flatten our carbon footprint now.
The problem is that even if WE did that (being still the worst offenders by far) it still wouldn't be enough.
We must get the WORLD off oil, not just solve our balance of payments problem, an outlay that puts $1b a day into the hands of the worst radicals on earth.
But if we did it, we would win this war. And we would not have to go through the other real nightmare, either.
So, I think a little Yankee Ingenuity is called for.
We can do this.
Pelayo ...
What station is this on. I'm up by 4:30 most mornings so with a little luck I'll catch it. Can't promise, but thanks for the tip.
now gandhi'd grandson dont like us either...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1199964893684&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
"So, the imbecile-in-chief wants a contiguous 'palestinian' state and, one would imagine in the tiny presidential cranium, a contiguous Israel. So either he flunked high-school geography, or high-school geometry, or both."
Actually I think they also plan a travel "corridor" of a highway cutting through Israel linking Philestina West bank controlled land with Gaza. Effectively cutting Israel in half, literally.
I have seen outlined proposal maps of this...anybody have a link?
Bush's continued procalmations about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict never ceases to amaze me.
Condi's position, his usual mouthpiece on the matter, and her deficiencies, are well-documented here on this site.
Concessions will definately be in order, simply one-sided ones though. The Islamists will never concede an inch. Sure, they will promise to "gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today", but in reality, it simply won't happen.
They will just establish a new line in the sand, one which Israel has already crossed, merely by continuing to exist in Allah's world, and press on with their business as usual.
Contiguous. Mmmmmmm.
The West Bank and East Jerusalem along with a couple Billion From the Saudis.
Israel gets a free Pass with the Iranian Proxies in Gaza. Israel keeps Gaza as a spoils of War. The rest packs it up to the West Bank.
The boundary's would meet the definition of the term.
It sure would be tough on everyone.
It will eliminate one front against Israel. Return control of the Egyptian Border as well.
Gets rid of a lot of unwanted Rocket fire over a large chunk of Real Estate.
Given the Nature that Booty plays in Islamic Society.Is it beyond a stretch to think nothing has ever changed.? That 1400 Years of Caravan Raiding is such a Cultural Tradition. To imagine through all those years the rare Opportunity to better ones plight in life with the absence of Infidels to profit off. Where oh where could one seek a better shake in life than those who share their spaces. Their fellow Travelers one suggests. So fitting and convenient knowing with Prophet it hand, None are so righteous as He.
Time may have moved on from the early Travelers. With means and ways unknown of in the past, prised as Booty none the less.
Will Custom hold itself endearing when Booty piles so high?
A 2 State Solution to a 3 State situation.
PMK
The Islamic world does not produce anything we want except oil. Without it they cannot trade or get anything else they want.
Also remember China lacks something, a navy. The United States Navy controls the sea lanes and protects them. Without the U.S. Navy, the Arabian oil trade will face some severe problems. China will be forced to do several things..
(1) Build their own navy out of their own pocket. That will screw their economic growth, because a Navy is an expensive thing. Then they will have to fight in the middle east forever..which is really expensive.
or
(2) Look for alternatives (coal conversion to oil for example)
I am not saying we should get rid of our Navy, but that does not mean we need to protect every other nation and their oil trade. Life sucks and if people want our protection they need to pay up (Gangsta movie style..). Our Navy should do one thing...look out for number 1 and our real friends.
China has something else to think about, which is they have their own Jihad problems in the west. China, like Russia, is walking a fine line. It is ok to screw us as long as we are in there getting the oil out, fighting in places like Iraq, etc, but if we are no longer in that region of the world...Russia and China will take more heat from the jihadist (due to them being closer). Do you really want to arm jihadist when those arms will end up in the hands of jihadist in your own country?
It is not the whole solution, but it will put us in a position to protect ourselves from defeat. You have to start somewhere, and the Arabian oil trade is a good place to start. There is no quick fix..I wish there was.
Also I did not say get off oil, just get off Arabian oil. It can be done...remove a dictator from a South American country for example, coal conversion to oil, more drilling, make a few deals with Russia, etc etc. That should buy us time until we can find real alternatives to oil and make them viable.
The most important thing to remember in all this: No matter how bad things are, the West is far more educated (technology) then the Islamic world. We can change the rules of the game.
this story ought to show how easy it would to establish a contiguous pal state....especially how easy bush was able to move about himself while over thereDEBKAfile Exclusive: Bush’s 1,500-strong Secret Service unit occupies Palestinian government center in Ramallah for his first visit
January 10, 2008, 11:53 AM (GMT+02:00)
The US Secret Service virtually took over the Palestinian Authority’s seat of government in Ramallah, enforcing unheard-of security measures for President George W. Bush’s talks with Mahmoud Abbas and PM Salam Fayyad Thursday, Jan. 10. Compared with US-Israeli security cooperation for the president’s first day in Israel, the US force cut Palestinian security officials out of the loop. Armed with an amazing arsenal of hardware and electronics, they cordoned the Ramallah government center off with a one-kilometer deep “sterile zone” - closed even to the Palestinian presidential guard and the media, except for a pool. Abbas’ office furniture was replaced with American products.
US officers barred entry to the Palestinian government center except for persons appearing on their list, albeit minus bodyguards. Only Abbas and Fayyad will be allowed small personal contingents of listed guards.
Top-secret security measures were also enforced in Bethlehem ahead of the president’s visit to the Church of the Nativity.
The US president politely refused Abbas’ personal request to lay a wreath at Yasser Arafat’s Ramallah mausoleum because of his timetable.
Our military sources report that arrangements are in place on the West Bank to whisk the president out of harm’s way at zero notice if necessary.
A security official told DEBKAfile: “This is Hamas’ and Jihad Islami’s big chance to get at a top American target and demonstrate their clout on the West Bank too. They are not alone. At least one faction of Abbas’ Fatah has also threatened the visit.”
In the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, angry mobs burned Bush banners and US flags Wednesday, called on West Bank leaders to arrest the US president as a terrorist and war criminal responsible for murdering their “Iraqi brethren,” and denounced Abbas and Fayyad as traitors and American stooges. More fury is expected to be poured out at Friday prayers in Palestinian mosques.
now someone tell me please after reading the above story about bush's secret service and how the israelis have to have checkpoints to keep nuts from blwing themselves up and everyone else, how are we suppose to do all taht bush asks for when he himself had to have american funiture brought in to replace pal's furniture there?
is this some kind of joke or what bush??
HEY BUSH!! HA HA HA!!
this is what the people of israel tihnk of you and your foolish plans to try to ''help''
The "painful concession" required of the Palestinians is simply to acknowledge that Israel has a right to exist. Some concession!
Watched some of the Fox News Republican debate tonight and, well, laugh if you want, but some of what Ron Paul said about Israel and the Middle East kind of made sense to me. Well, I was on my second vodka and tonic...
The candidates were asked about Bush's trip to the ME, Palestinian statehood, etc. Ron Paul, and I paraphrase, stated that we should stop treating Israel like a step-child, stop giving aid to ME countries which is three times what we give Israel while they are trying to destroy Israel using our money, stop forcing Israel to "work with us" on any peace settlement and let them negotiate on their own - they'll do fine. They don't need us as a Mother May I. That they were perfectly capabale of taking out the nuclear reactor in Iraq a few years ago. SO let them be their own sovereign nation without our inteference.
Too bad no one said that the "Palestinian people" are a fiction and suck it up like the rest of the world's peoples who don't have or lost their own homeland: Kurds, Tibetans, etc.
HOV Dummy wrote:
"Watched some of the Fox News Republican debate tonight and, well, laugh if you want, but some of what Ron Paul said about Israel and the Middle East kind of made sense to me."
I watched it as weel and I'm not laughing. More than some of what he said about the matter makes sense. The US, at our own country's expense financialy and militarily, cannot continue our present course of wasteful democracy projects and nation building in the Middle East.
Simply replacing through coersion, one puppet Islamic dictator with another, reaps the same fruit...rotten apples.
The bottom line in this reality is an absolute failure by the historical US administrations to comprehend what exactly Islam is all about, at least since the late 70's.
I heard a whisper today that the US is planning on turning over power in Anbar to the Iraqis as soon as March.
The inevitable beginning of the end of the success of "the surge" in Iraq.
The "war" is clearly lost. That will become apparent in short order.
Hugh was, is, and will in all probability, continue to be prophetic and more importantly, 150% correct about Iraq. A short spell will confirm this.
To all those who oppose? How 'bout 'dem rotten apples?
Jerusalem is a tough issue. Both Jews and Muslims make claims to the Temple Mount area where the Jewish Temple of Jerusalem once stood and the Dome of the Rock Al Aqsa Mosque now stands. The Temple Mount is an area that many Jews would like to take back to build another Temple.
Muhammad never visited Jerusalem but strangely enough there is a fabricated fairy tale story that Muslims continue to share involving Mohammad's secret night journey to Jerusalem by the angel Gabriel.
The journey from Mecca to Jerusalem is known as al-Isra, "the night journey". Allegedly Mohammad made a miraculous night journey from Mecca to Jerusalem and to the Seven Heavens on a white flying horse called Al-Buraq El-Sharif.
During his interval in Jerusalem, Mohammad allegedly stopped to pray at the rock (now covered by the golden Dome), and was given the commandment to pray five times a day. During Mohammad's life, he allegedly instructed Muslims to visit not only the mosque where they lived in Mecca, but also the "Farthest mosque" from them which lay 2000 kilometers north, in Jerusalem. Hence the name Al-Masjid El-Aqsa, or Al-Aqsa Mosque.
Al-Aqsa Mosque is the second oldest mosque in Islam after the Ka'ba in Mecca, and is third in holiness and importance after the mosques in Mecca and Medina.
Muhammad is alleged to have said:
I was brought al-Burg who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place his hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to the Temple (Bait-ul Maqdis in Jerusalem), then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. (Sahih Muslim, Vol. 1, p. 101).
"occupation"
What a load of crap. The Jews have been in the land of Israel LOOOOOOOONG before any Arabs were ever there. If anyone has "occupied" Israel - it's the Palestinians.
I say the Jews should keep the land that belongs to them and do not give in to Bush and give them one more INCH!!!
Go Israel!!
I say the Jews should keep the land that belongs to them and do not give in to Bush and give them one more INCH!!!
Posted by: champ at January 10, 2008 11:34 PM
I second!!
nothing good will come of the president's efforts. nothing.
Posted by: StillBreathing January 10, 2008 2:35 PM
nothing good has come of this 8 year presidency.Nothing. Good riddance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
here is how dedicated the arab nations are to stopping terrorist bombers....
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1199964895472&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
and...osama bin laden is a swine and there is no palestine
Well. If President Bush has really gone over to the terrorists' side - then, no one can help them.
Israeli occupation?
If Arabs don't like it they should:
1. never attack the Jews,
2. or, (if they do make mistake no. 1), never get beaten by the Jews
3. or, (if they make mistake 1. and 2.),move out to Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia - any place on the Planet of the Arabs.
It is really so simple. Unfortunately, hatred makes makes people stupid. And Islam makes people hate. A vicious circle.
On May 18, 1967 the "Voice of the Arabs" proclaimed on the airways: "The sole method we shall apply against Israel is total war which will result in the extermination of Zionist existence."
The Syrian Defence Minister, Hafez Assad, announced: "The time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation."
the President of Iraq declared: "Our goal is clear -- to wipe Israel off the map."
Faced with the prospect of annihilation, Israel was forced into a war it did not provoke and it had no incentive in waging. In the process, it took land that it considered vital to its security.
And this is what PRESIDENT BUSH calls "occupied land."
Looks like the Jews who would not vote for Bush were correct. All that matters is the business relationships with those he has been shielding throughout his presidency are the expense of the American people- the corrupt Saudi monarchy.
"In his - Bush's- set of U.S. bottom lines were........a "contiguous" state for the Palestinians"
A "contiguous" Palestinian state spells the death knell for Israel.
These are indeed dark days.
But Israel will be compensated fully for having it's borders torn up and it's existence put in dire peril for........
"another White House official said Bush is likely to attend Israel's 60th anniversary celebrations in May."
So on the one hand, Israel is all but finished, but on the other hand, the people of Israel will get to meet The Great Bush in person.
So, it's all pluses and minuses really.
Assalamau Laikum all,
Looks like Mr. Bush wants to bow out with a bang...or that he is a secret wuslim....
well done that man.
Nazieem - looks like the secret is really out about Bush. What is a "wuslim" anyway - a wicked Muslim?
wuslim = weird Muslim?
wuslim = wishy/washy Muslim?
wuslim = whiny Muslim?
wuslim = wannabe Muslim?
WHAT????
Assalamau Laikum Champ,
A wuslim is a western/white muslim ...like cat stevens or perhaps you grand daughter after coming into the fold.
This is as it should be...now that Bush is talking about a state for the Pals ....it will happen to worldwide opinion.
But I am looking past this and thinking about wuslims loving your neighbourhood.
As an analogy, please remember the fate of ice is to melt into it's surrounding water...this is as it should be.
Surrounding you will be the wuslim...and that is your fate too...forget your aggressive stance...melt as ice does...into the oneness that Allah SWT has created for you...Kafur is a false state...it cannot remain intact...ice is melting everywhere...take the sahada...become a wulsim....show them your wuslim credentials......melt like butter...into wuslimness
...may Allah speed my Dua and your hand to global peace...do it please listen to me.
Well, Wafa Sultan warned : http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52962
but Americans are following their pide-piper.
Naseem
FOAD!!
I first attacked that oil patch doormat on Sept. 17, 2001 and I have never let up on that Saud
whore. Israel's dhimmi pseudo government gave Gaza to those animals, and they set it up as a missile base against Israel. Give them Judea and Samaria and they get another missile base. And what would the Texas dypso do in that inevitability? Blame Israel for not doing enough.
And what exactly has the pious drunk done for his fellow Christians in the Middle East? Nothing, but offer silent consent to continued ethnic cleansing. What has he done for any Arab who rejects Islamofascism? Nothing. Again - and the lack of prior response here suggests that this won't impact on Forum users - on Sept. 11, 2001, there were 19,000 Islamofascists in Egyptian jails. Under Bush's "Middle East Partnership Initiative," less than 1000 of the original animals remain locked up. And the country is a one-time free election away from an aggressive tyranny, that would wage jihad terror against the West.
Bush is a Fraud: Bush was a Fraud; Bush will die a Fraud. The Bush Crime Family are whores to their Saud pimps.
OK. I give up.
Ive been defending this guy (GW) since he won the nomination in 2000.
But I give up.
The man really is an idiot.
From Supercargo:"The Bush Crime Family"
Yes, I'm afraid it's true. Fine article, BTW.
It isn't funny any more that Americans are "surprised" by Bush sell out. If by now, Americans have not realized Bush Sr. so;d America to wahabbi mastwers followed by his son, Americans never will. Oh well, everyone has a right to be stupid in America!! So what if it costs the nation the culture, the future and our kids? More important to be pc and support a timid/corrupt president/commander-in-chief. Well, everything comes at a price.........
Not suprised at all by what Mr. Bush has said. One of the sad sign of the times. I just do not understand what is the deep interest of Jerusalam of Muslims. As far as this thing about the night trip to Jerusalam by Mohammed, it was nothing more then a make believe story to begin with.
Assalamau Laikum Km,
What is FOAD.....I am not familiar with this term?
...FOAD....
...faces of angels destroyed?........
....FOAD...
....probably....freak off and die....
....probably....freak off and die...
I thought so. Well, may be not exactly "freak off", but something in that vein.
If only Nasseem wanted to heed the first part of the advice.
Find definition of FOAD at
everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=932944
If we can reduce or get rid of the dependence on Arabian oil, we will be in a much better position to defend ourselves from jihad.
greatcomet,
Unless the world demand for oil is removed, America's weaning itself from Arab oil will only make us feel good about ourselves. It won't mean anything as far as jihad.
First, there are developing nations (China and India) that are ready to buy. They'll buy whatever we don't. The market might experience a hiccup but it will quickly right itself. Maybe oil will go down to $50 a barrel but it will never reach the levels of the 1990s, when there was a worldwide recession in the industrial nations. The coffers of the terrorist nations will be quickly replenished, even if oil prices halve.
Second, China is exempt from the Kyoto Protocols, so our people in Seattle might just have to wear masks to protect themselves. Pollution knows no boundaries. China's coal beds are on fire but the world says nothing.
Last, maybe oil is the only thing multinationals are in the Middle East for, but multinational corporations are involved in lots more than oil: technology, weapons, etc. The global economy is dependent upon the free transfer of goods. We remove our navy (like you, I would love to see that happen) and it won't just be oil that feels the pain. Cut off the flow of oil and it will have a ripple effect all over the globe. That's globalism.
As for a future without oil, the Middle East countries have a lot more resources than they realize. They've just been too afraid to develop them because doing so would require a lot of contact with the outside on the level of the street. Another source of capital for the Saudis is the hajj, when Muslims come from all over the world to dump money in Saudi laps. Picture Saudi Arabia as a tourist spot for every month of the year except the hajj. Picture Mecca as a tourist destination. It's a historical city and lots of people would love to see it. Let non-Muslims view these sites (at least the ones the Wahhabis haven't demolished).
Then there's archeology, history and a lot more. Doing this would require going against the stricture that there be no non-believers in the land of Muhammad. Do they have the guts to do it?
Lebanon was once a vibrant country and the vacation spot of the Middle East. It was destroyed by the PLO and Shia fundamentalists. Can it be restored?
Egypt has the Pyramids.
The UAE has made plans for the future. They have DPW and other service industries.
Despite this rosy picture, it will still take generations for the jihad to cease. The Saudis have played both ends against the middle expertly since FDR. They won't stop. It's up to us but we can't think that our oil consumption is all that is financing the jihad.
"Bush calls for contiguous Palestinian state to be established within the year"
...I suppose he could see the destruction of Israel before he leaves office...
I the Moderate Muslim Palestinian exist, therefore I am.
Posted by: Averroes
what exactly makes u moderate? u wear a burka or something?
I the Moderate Muslim Palestinian am, therefore I exist.
Damn, this is way to deep for the "infidels" to grok.
Guess all we have to do is swear allegiance to illah and alla-uvasudden the clouds will lift off the hidden reaches of the mind and reveal the hidden glory of Satan to us?
I am sure they will find a way to claim Descartes was really a moslem - like they try to do with everyone else.
now gandhi'd grandson dont like us either...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1199964893684&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Posted by: zionist122
"Mahatma" Gandhi's grandson is as delusional as was his grandfather, who, with his pacifist outlook towards muslims, helped in the carving out of a separate land for the muslims within the sub-continent, i.e. Pakistan; and, in the process seeing to it that almost a million lives were unnecessarily lost; and millions more were unnecessarily dispossed of their ancestral lands. Jews should follow Arun Gandhi's advice ONLY if they have a wish to commit suicide.
Naseem states: "please remember the fate of ice is to melt into it's surrounding water...this is as it should be."
How poetic -- but you should know better than to compare me to ice, Naseem, because I am more like fire; so Islam and I are not compatable. Not now, not ever.
"...forget your aggressive stance...melt as ice does...into the oneness that Allah SWT has created for you..."
Fire is a very aggressive element; and to use your own analogy, it is only doing what it is designed to do, so I will not change my position on Islam.
Islam be gone!
So, Bush wants to build a bridge between Hamas in Gaza, to Fatah in the West Bank, this will give Hamas the access, the ability to take control of everything, and that may just happen.
Three states back down to two, and Hamas did not sign anything. They got no seat at the peace talks.
Unless this is considered to be possible, how will this effect peace?
Am I missing somthing?
Careful what you wish for there "Nessie",the first priority of a US islamic state would be to commit it's vast resources to the eradication of all "heretical" islamic sects worldwide. Lahore would hardly be off limits to such good old American knowhow. We tend to do these quite efficiently once committed. No fighting one handed then, just truly policing the world on behalf of the "pure." Lucky for your ilk,the future generations will be likely instead be space-hopping to other satellites and developing new vaccines and hopefully genetic breakthroughs to combat the effects of multi-generational inbreeding (coupled with the debilitating effects of the islamic version of Stockholm Syndrome.
bigcatgirl13106:
You write:
The reason you don't get it is most likely because you have a clean mind and a healthy heart. Certain forms of perversity are opaque to you. It speaks well of you and how you have lived.
The force at work here is ENVY -- by which I do not mean jealousy.
Envy and jealousy are psychologically distinct.
A jealous person sees what someone else has, and wants it, or something like it for themselves. They feel that they themselves deserve to have such a thing.
Once the jealous person gets what they want they are satisfied. Justice has been done.
For the other person to lose what they have doesn't help the jealous person because they themselves still don't have what they want and feel they deserve.
With me so far?
An envious person sees what someone else has and feels unjustly deprived, regardless of whether or not they actually desire that thing in and of itself. They feel that the other person does not deserve to have what they have.
It's a subtle differnce.
Once the envious person gets what they claim to want, they are still not satisfied. Justice is not yet done -- because the undeserving other still has it too.
The other person must lose what they have to satisfy the envious. When they lose their undeserved good fortune, then the balance is restored.
You are quite right. There is nothing in mohammedan culture that would make Jerusalem so intensely desirable in its own right. No special history, tradition, religious sanction, nothing really.
But the point is not to get Jerusalem, but to make sure that the Israelis lose Jerusalem.
And as traditional and intense as mohammedan Jew-hatred is, I don't really even think that it is fundamentally a specific anti-Jewish thing. I think it goes deeper than that.
The point is that nobody should achieve even the appearance of superiority to any mohammedans in any way.
The psychology of envy is truly deep and truly dark. And I am convinced that it is one of the key motivating forces of mohammedan popular culture. Perhaps even more that just popular culture.
One last thing, bear in mind the whining about suffering undeserved disadvantages that we hear from this crowd continually. The flip side is that in their view, everybody else is getting undeserved advantages!
It is the voice of envy speaking.
A differnet prersoective on Bush:
http://www.newswithviews.com/Marshall/wr17.htm
Nothing wrong with a contiguous Palestinian state.
Toss 'em all out of the West Bank, formally annex it, and they can have Gaza.