"I don’t recognise this state and law, but only Allah the supreme"

"For you, I’m Bin Laden, your deadly enemy,” he told police. “I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”...

Muslims don't like jobs

I don't know if Jobs made the list, but this is a growing document of what offends muslims...employment should be added to the list

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Things-That-Offend-Muslims.htm

The worst offender? Pokeyman !

A Christian is a child of God.
A muslim is a slave of allah.

""This isn’t an Islamic problem. This is a jihadist problem," said Mike Huckabee recently."

....and jihadists generally are......?...

...if it looks like a pile of dog squeeze, smells like a pile of dog squeeze and feels like a pile of dog squeeze....guess what....it probably is.....

Huckabee may be ill-informed, a simpleton.

What's Giuliani's excuse?

I suggest that Huck and Rudolph read Blogging the Quran. For example...

"The next segment of Sura 2, verses 75-105, continues the Qur’an’s criticism of the Jews. When you read statements by Hamas leaders or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about Israel, remember that they view Israel and Jews through a Qur’anic prism. They have learned, if they have studied the Qur’an at all, that the Jews are the most perverse and guilty – as well as the craftiest and most persistent – enemies of Allah, Muhammad and the Muslims"-Robert Spencer.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/06/24/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-2-%e2%80%9cthe-cow%e2%80%9d-verses-75-140/

or....

"Ibn Kathir, following Ibn Ishaq, also recounts this incident (the ambush and theft of the products of a Quraysh caravan at Nakhla), which was a momentous one: good became identified with anything that redounded to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harmed them, without reference to any larger moral standard. Moral absolutes were swept aside in favor of the overarching principle of expediency. Sayyid Qutb explains that “Islam is a practical and realistic way of life which is not based on rigid idealistic dogma.” Islam “maintains its own high moral principles,” but only when “justice is established and wrongdoing is contained” — i.e., only when Islamic law rules a society — can “sanctities be protected and presevered.” So evidently they need not be before that point".-Paragraph 7

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/08/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-2-%e2%80%9cthe-cow%e2%80%9d-verses-211-221/


We must never forget that, unlike the other major religions of humans, Muslims do not believe in a universal "Golden Rule". Rather, to paraphrase Robert Spencer, "good is identified with anything that redounds to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harms them, without reference to any larger moral standard".

Let us face it, Islam, all of Islam, is at war with the secular democracies. I put it this way because some of pseudo democracies are the very ones that are promoting terrorism. Why the secular democracies, because most are governed by laws based on the Judo-Christian concept of the free will of man, versus Allah’s slaves. So, I ask, why do the democracies stop pandering the Muslims and start taking corrective measures? There is little doubt that if the Western societies chose to confront Islam on Islam’s terms, the conflict would be over in a very short order.

Does Mr. Huckabee refer to the "greater" or "lesser" Jihad?

I have yet to see an example of the former and have seen all too many examples of the latter.

Remember there is A LOT of differences between the God of the Holy Bible and Allah of the Koran. Because the Bible has relationship with God in the form of sons and daugthers or children of God, thus the sucess of the Jewish/Christian west. The Allah of the Koran is more of a master/slave relationship. The former is built on piety or devotion reverance, the later on a severe fearfulness.

Deadreckoning said: So, I ask, why don't the democracies stop pandering to the Muslims and start taking corrective measures? There is little doubt that if the Western societies chose to confront Islam on Islam’s terms, the conflict would be over in a very short order.

I agree that it would be over in short order, but until we go back to fighting to win for our survival ala Germany/Japan in WWII and quit fighting to enforce peace ala the U.N., Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kuwait, somalia etc. etc. etc., we will never win.

Unless you completely destroy the populations will to continue the fight, you cannot achieve peace. And when you do achieve victory and let the vanquished re-establish a government, you do not let them incorporate the reason for the war into their "new" constitution. In Germany and Japan, we told them what could and could not go into the constitution. And the primary "could not" was Naziism and Shintoism.Yet in Afghanistan and Iraq, we've allowed them to base their constitutions on Sharia which is what caused the problem in the first place.

This is why we haven't "won" in the past 60 years.

“I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”...
-- from the statement by the would-be Muslim Arab terrorist, doing Allah's work -- terrorizing and killing Infidels -- in Serbia

Yes, we Infidels, whether Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, or this or that, or nothing at all, so often find ourselves having to work. It's not always pleasant.

Would that we were free, like Fuad Hodzic, to be nothing but "Allah's slaves," and not have to have jobs, but could be full-time marchers fi sabil Allah, on the Path of Allah (the Path of Jihad), because we would be supported, directly or indirectly, by those same Infidels. Indirectly, when they buy, and do little or nothing to enable themselves to diminish their buying, of oil and gas that is virtually the sole source of wealth for the oil-rich Arabs. Or indirectly, by the fabulous additional sums transferred to Muslims from non-Muslims in the form of the foreign aid, to all those Muslim states and peoples -- in Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, in the "Palestinian"-occupied territories -- who do not happen to have the bonanza of that accident of geology that Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., Kuwait, Qatar, and so on, uncaring (except in regards to supporting Muslims fighting against Infidels -- then weapons will be paid for, propaganda will be paid for, upkeep for the families of dead terrorists will be paid for), and determinedly unsharing of their unearned wealth with those fellow members of the Umma.

And to that trans-national steady transfer of wealth, some ten trillion dollars to Muslim members of OPEC since 1973 alone, one must add, as if that were not already enough, the hundreds of billions spent to make life "better" and to bring "democracy" to "ordinary moms and dads" (also sprach Bush) in the Middle East, has made it possible for the Saudis and other rich Arabs to pay for mosques, madrasas, small armies of Western hirelings (one of them, a former Republican member of Congress, has just been indicted, but thousands in the capitals of the West still openly ply their propagandistic trade), campaigns of Da'wa in prisons and among other, carefully-identified economically or socially marginal groups, and of course psychically-marginal individuals (the Lindhs and the Ridleys will always be with us).

So first add to those trillions in unmerited oil wealth those hundreds of billions in Infidel aid spent on saving Muslim peoples from their own failures, political, economic, social, intellectual, and moral, without ever inquiring into the source of those failures, which is Islam itself.

In Iraq (in that act of continued and colossal folly) more than a trillion dollars has been spent, not to reduce and divide the country, but to bring a unity that will never be attained, to bring a prosperity that supposedly will come from the tens of billions of American money handed out like confeeti, and in Afghanistan (ditto, though on a less colossal scale), and that aid to the lords of malevolent misrule in Egypt, in Jordan, and, most maddeningly and most offensively, to those local Arabs, the shock troops of the Lesser Jihad against Israel, who have been carefully renamed the "Palestinians," and about whom we have heard so very much, at the U.N., at the E.U., everywhere that the non-existent "international community" meets and greets, presented as the most victimized group of human beings in the history of the world, when in fact they are the permanent enemies of, deniers of the legal, moral and historic rights of those -the Jews -- who indeed are the most persecuted tribe in human history, for the "Palestinian national struggle" is a "struggle" to deny the possiblility of a secure and permanent existence to Israel, an Infidel nation-state and hence a permanent affront, that must be eliminated if Muslim Arabs are to rest easy (oh, they simply can't, simply can't despite the oil trillions, simply can't, despite the 22 members of the Arab League, and the 14 million square miles, until Israel is pressured further and the conditions created on the ground for the inexorable, later, final "solution" to the "problem of Israel" -- which means, elimination of that Infidel nation-state, and not the naive "two-state solution" of those who do not know, and do not care to find out, about the texts and tenets, of Islam.

And with those trans-national transfers of Infidel wealth -- trillions for the oil, hundreds of billions for the Jizyah-aid -- there is another transfer of wealth, this one taking place within the countries of Western Europe, where the welfare systems set up by Infidel taxpayers in the post-war period, and designed to pay for those fellow citizens who needed help, has now become very largely a program of wealth-transfer from the Infidel taxpayers to the Muslims who have learned quickly to fully exploit every conceivable benefit that the Infidel nation-states and their generous systems provide: free education, free medical care (at the Western, not the Muslim, level), free or subsidized housing, and so on. The fiddling goes on, in every way. And that leaves far less for the Infidel poor, the legitiimate poor. Muslim women rarely work: they are kept at home as breeders. And of course despite the official ban on polygamy, many Muslims ignore that ban,and there is not one, but more than one wife, and a dozen children, on the Infidel dole. The unemployment rate for Muslism is far beyond that for any other immigrant group, as is the rate of incarceration. The econonomic drain on Infidel states has yet to be discussed openly, but it is there for all to see, and many do see it. In England, it has not escapwed notice that the Hindus and Sikhs, or for that matter the Chinese, do not cost the state anything like what the Muslim immigrants do --what has not yet happened is a discussion of why that is so, and why it is so not only in Great Britain but in every European country.

So we have to be "slaves" to "our money and our job" and pay directly, or indirectly, for Fuad Hodzic, for all the fuad-hodzics, outside Europe, and deep inside that Europe whose legal and political instiutions, social arrangements and understandings, Infidel ways of life, these fuad-hodzics so deeply despise, and some of them, like him, act on it, and others merely support, or certainly do not denounce and work against, those active partipicants in violent Jihad. And their other activities suggest that while they do not parcitipate in active Jihad, they are participants in the other instruments of Jihad -- campaigns of Da'wa, deployment of the Money Weapon, and of course demographic conquest, that last of which they participate in, even unconsciously, merely by overbreeding, and helpo to swell Muslim ranks that, inexorably, will make, are making, the lives of non-Muslims in Europe more unpleasant, more expensive, and more physically dangerous, than they would otherwise be.

And let's not forget that chief ally of jihadis like Fuad Hodzic in the Balkans is - the USA.

Serbs were fighting these:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hYYbCq6tg5c

and got bombed by NATO - twice. Now the USA is chief force supporting Kosovo jihadis to create their own mafia-state in the heart of Europe.

When will this nonsense stop?

America? Truth? Democracy?

Just imagine the look on Giuliani's face should an astute reporter ever ask him to explain, exactly, which tenets of Islam 'they've perverted', and how.

What, really, does he know of Qur'an, hadith, and sira? Does he know why the Saudis and other Muslim nations conduct punitive decapitations and amputations?

I once heard Huckabee refer to Allah as 'their god'.

How surprised would ol' Huck be, how surprised would Ma and Pa America be, to learn that, to Muslims, the god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are one and the same?

His assertion that Allah is 'their god' demonstrates not a knowledge of Islam, but an ignorance of it, and of its followers.

I'm not sure what the curriculum at Ouachita Baptist University consists of, but it apparently does not include Islam 101.

Greetings,

I have been reading the site for some time now (over a year) without commenting. I wanted to see for myself if you all were really being fair-minded...

Would Huckabee have been more correct if he had said, "This isn't a Muslim problem generally as much as it is a jihadist problem specifically?"

ISTM that many of the articles here are asking questions that have every right to be asked (for better or for worse - whether I personally agree or not), but that many of the people commenting on the articles seem to see all Muslims in the worst possible light. That faithful Muslims are seconds away from strapping on dynamite vests, and the Muslims who aren't aren't faithful Muslims. That, for me, is a point FAR from being proved.

If I am called an idiot for seeing things this way... I think I will know what conclusion to draw about the people who post comments here.

On side note to the person called "ImNoDhimmi..."

You said:
A Christian is a child of God.
A muslim is a slave of allah.

Two points...

1. The words "Muslim" and "Allah" should be capitalized in the same manner as you capitalized "Christian" and "God."

2. If you check the Greek of the NT... in I Cor. 7:22 you'll notice that many English language translations of the verse use the word "slave" when referring to the relationship between Christ and the believer. The Greek word is "doulos..." look it up and see what it's primary meanings are. :)

Happy hunting!

IC XC
Cearnaigh

"For you, I’m Bin Laden, your deadly enemy,” he told police. “I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”

Hodzic said a policeman insulted him and asked what his wife was doing while he was hiding in the woods.

“I shivered and told him: ‘I’m Bin Laden and you are a rabbit, so don’t pretend to be a lion,” Hodzic said.

That is what all the sensitivity is getting us. They actually believe that they are the superior fighters.
Time to wake up, fight like there is a monster at the door. Politicians are not helping matters.

"but that many of the people commenting on the articles seem to see all Muslims in the worst possible light. That faithful Muslims are seconds away from strapping on dynamite vests, and the Muslims who aren't aren't faithful Muslims."

Whose fault is that?

"One of the accused, Fuad Hodzic, before entering a plea on charges of terrorism and illegal arms possession asked the court to bow and say a prayer before refuting charges against him."

...Request denied!....the charges are.......

Cearnaigh,

This discussion is not about linguistics, but about practice. "Slave of God" in Bible has completely different meaning than "slave of Allag" in Islam. Read Galatians.

And Serbs have been told all over again, in millions of newspaper articles, filled with hate and contemt, that Balcan Moslems are not real Moslems but secularized and fighting for their national liberation (and new nations have been invented and discovered, those of "Bosnians" and "Kosovars"). And USA still insists on independant Kosovo and works on destruction of the Serbian state and nation that was its ally in two world wars.

It is nice that this article appears on Jihad Watch, but it would be even nicer if Kosovo , Bosnia and Serbia are covered on Jihad Watch not only on the ocasions when those allegedly secular Moslems openly condemn USA but also when their hater is directed "only" against Serbia, otherwise there is an impression that for Jihad Watch Balcan Jihadists are bad only when they threaten the USA, otherwise they are ignored, - this approach supports the current destruction of the Serbian state executed by and through USA and its ally EU.

Even though Jihad Watch has the focus on what is going on in USA , the "independant" "Bosnia" and "Kosova" deserve systematic, in-depth and permanent critical coverage, simply because they are USA creations and mirror the USA crime on the Serbian nation and state, a crime that is beyond forgiveness.

Greetings,

Elric66, you said:
"Whose fault is that?"

Let me guess every single Muslim slave of Allah...

Ugh... if this is your answer...

LazarOfSerbia, you said:
"This discussion is not about linguistics, but about practice. "Slave of God" in Bible has completely different meaning than "slave of Allag" in Islam. Read Galatians."

Yeah... ok... what are the differences? How do you know what they are?

IC XC
Cearnaigh

p.s.
What makes you think I haven't read Galatians?

Huckabee may be ill-informed, a simpleton.

What's Giuliani's excuse?

Posted by: Hugh

Good question. Maybe it's his client list?

Cearnaigh,

Is it our fault that Islam has such a poor reputation among non Muslims?

moslem, allah
Christian, God

For a discourse to have good rhetoric, it must have a solid lexical foundation.

The most important discourse on earth right now is around the Moderate Islam Delusion, also called the I Saw A Unicorn Delusion.

So let's define the word moderate for this context.

According to Mitt, Mike, George, Condi, O'Reilly, Glenn, and all the rest of them...

Moderation = mass murder (Qurayza)
Moderation = institutionaized pedophilia (Iran)
Moderation = sex slavery
Moderation = institutionalized misogyny
Moderation = theft, extortion, protection rackets
Moderation = no free speech murder (Abu, Asma)
Moderation = global Sharia

... and so on. These are the ideals worshipped by, er, moderate Moslems, who I guess are sorta like grayed out Unicorns, but anyway the ones on whom we're betting the world (willful ignorance).

Argument over.

I will never put allah on the same level as God in my writings. They are NOT the same.

By the way, Fuad Hodzic paraphrased the words of J.B., known as Tito, a Croatian Communist who terrorized Serbs for decades (and contributed to Moslem invasion of Kosovo by settling there numerous Albanians and forbidding the Serbs, expelled during the WWII to come back).

In a lawsuit before WWII (Communist party was illegal than) he said that he doesn´t recognise the state and the law, only the decisions of his communist party.

"Ne priznajem medutim burzoaski sud, jer se smatram odgovornim samo svojoj komunistickoj partiji." We were brainwashed at school with those words and how much dear J.B. suffered before WWII under the "Serbian imperialism" See an excellent article on overtly anti-Serbian platform of the communist party that ruled Yugoslavia here:

http://grayfalcon.blogspot.com/2007/12/manufacturing-guilt.html

The EU and USA took over this communist anti-Serbian discourse to the last bit.

I also use mOslem instead of mUslim because the sound of the pronunciation is closer to the true meaning of the word. Oppression.

Greetings,

Like it or not Allah is a proper noun in the examples that I took exception to...

IC XC

ALLAH IS NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE:
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

"Muslims believe that there is no other God besides Allah and that he is the God of the universe. They claim that not only is he their God, but that he is the God of the Jews, the Christians and everyone else. When examining the profile of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and comparing it with Allah’s profile, there are a number of distinct differences between them that can only result in one conclusion: These profiles simply do not match! Allah is NOT the God of the Bible!

The Islamic faith, through the teachings of Muhammad, asserts that Allah is God and attempt to place him within the confines of the Holy Scriptures. When the Bible contradicts their teachings, they allege that it is flawed, has been tampered with, and has many errors. They further claim that the Koran, through the teachings of their prophet Muhammad, corrects them. However, it has already been established that Muhammad was both a false prophet and teacher. Therefore, Islam’s allegations are unsupported, baseless and without merit.

There are a number of major differences between the God of the Bible and Allah. This chapter will focus upon five reasons why they are not the same. According to the Holy Scriptures, the God of the Bible is the one true God while Allah is a false god."

(read it all on the link)

Cearnaigh,

Still waiting for my answer.

Is it non Muslims fault that Islam has such a bad reputation?

The words "Muslim" and "Allah" should be capitalized in the same manner as you capitalized "Christian" and "God."

Cearnaigh,

Why waste everyone's time on trivialities? Why do you care what case people use? I was taught that, when referring to God, the personal pronoun should always be capitalized. (For instance: God showed His love.) That hardly ever happens, but it doesn't matter. There are more important things to worry about.

Disrespecting Islam is a duty, not a pleasure. Well, it's fun too. If you guys wanna convey profound disrespect to Islam, then beat the Moslems down with words of their own creation, such as Koran, Mohammed, and Moslems.

Since Qur' an (koo-ahn) has become hip, the need for Koran has become paramount.

This is the same as when the Reverend Jesse Jackson commanded us to use African American and not Afro-American, why listen to the linguistic commands of Moslems any more than that of Reverend Jesse?

This is of course stated by me with full sensitivity to our Afro-American friends who recently became Moslems by converting to Islam.

Elric66,

In answer to your question...

"Is it non Muslims fault that Islam has such a bad reputation?"

Maybe in some cases, yes...

I know what you want to hear is NO! The fault lies with Muslims... while I think we would agree that there is fault that lies with Muslims here... I think we would end up disagreeing since I don't believe that all of the fault lies with all Muslims.

IC XC

Elric66,

In answer to your question...

"Is it non Muslims fault that Islam has such a bad reputation?"

Maybe in some cases, yes...

I know what you want to hear is NO! The fault lies with Muslims... while I think we would agree that there is fault that lies with Muslims here... I think we would end up disagreeing since I don't believe that all of the fault lies with all Muslims.

IC XC

So how is it partly our fault then?

We arent the ones that wrote the Qur'an or the hadiths.

Elric66,

I don't know how you are using the word "our" here... you seem to be suggesting that I think that by "our" you mean every non-Muslim... I don't.

I *do* think that there are non-Muslims who speak as expert on Islam when they are not. I think that these people may also contribute (in some way) to the "bad reputation" of Muslims. I don't think that this is completely unreasonable. No one here has shown it to be so.

GENERAL COMMENT

ISTM that the people who have taken offense to my comments on the Bible and it's use of 'doulos' don't want to be confronted with inconvenient facts... if your study of Christianity is this superficial (and you seem to be coming from a Christian perspective)... I won't be regarding any of you as experts on Islam.

IC XC

"I think that these people may also contribute (in some way) to the "bad reputation" of Muslims."

How so? More so than Muslims rioting over a friggin cartoon?

Elric66,

You seem to be getting agitated...

You ask, "How so? More so than Muslims rioting over a friggin cartoon?"

By giving other non-Muslims who are also non-experts on Islam partially true impressions on the religion and it's followers. Not drawing distinctions, etc etc etc... that list could go on for some time.

That would, indeed, contribute to the problem.

More than Muslims rioting over cartoons? I don't know how we could quantify that, but, no, IMHO, probably not.

IC XC

Cearnaigh,

No Im not aggitated, I enjoy debating Islamic apologists. :-)

All anyone has to do is read the Qur'an and hadiths. That will do enough damage to Islam's repuation.

No one has to lie or give half truths about Islam. Its all in there. Once they do, all the jihad around the world makes sense.

Elric66,

You seem to be confused, friend....

You state:
"No Im not aggitated, I enjoy debating Islamic apologists."

You *seem* to have the idea that I am a Muslim, I am not. I am a Byzantine Catholic.

You write:
"All anyone has to do is read the Qur'an and hadiths. That will do enough damage to Islam's repuation."

I don't know about this statement...

All I was saying is that non-Muslims giving incorrect or incomplete information (with the intent of showing Islam to be terrible) would also contribute to Islam's bad reputation.

I can't see how what I say is not reasonable.

IC XC

I never said you were Muslim, just an apologist for Islam. You dont have to be a Muslim to make excuses for Islam.

"All I was saying is that non-Muslims giving incorrect or incomplete information (with the intent of showing Islam to be terrible"

How can they do that when the Qur'an does it anyway? Its like trying to make water more wet.

Then compare Galatians and Quran my brother in faith.

You say:
"All I was saying is that non-Muslims giving incorrect or incomplete information"

That is exactly what jihadists are doing deliberately, as very successful tactic in deceiving the west.

Islam IS terrible.

Cearnaigh ,
Do you believe that Israel has a right to their historical homeland?

Elric66,

I said *seem* - you did see that right?

I hope your your expert exegesis of the Qur'an is better than your understanding of my comments. ;)

Where did I make an excuse for Islam?

I said that what non-Muslims "teach" to other non-Muslims about Islam may contribute to Islam's bad reputation. I think that this is reasonable. You have yet to show that it is not, and then you seem to try to paint me as a person who wants to defend the truth of Islam. If this be so... you have badly misunderstood me.

IC XC

"I said that what non-Muslims "teach" to other non-Muslims about Islam may contribute to Islam's bad reputation."

Well give examples then

Elric66,

So you don't think that what I say is even plausible...?? Wow...

Examples...

Here in the comments Sneakyzionistcrusader said: "Muslims don't like jobs."

If I were non-Muslim and stupid... I could take this to be a fact and use it to browbeat "lazy Muslims."

You can't see how this could happen?

IC XC

"You can't see how this could happen?"

No not really. The Qur'an calls for war with the non believers so one poster saying Muslims dont like jobs means nothing.

Elric66,

Yeah... you don't seem to be reasonably addressing what I have had to say at all.

You position seems to be that no non-Muslim could ever give a false negative impression of Islam to another non-Muslim seems clearly false to me.

You seem to want to paint Islam as 100% evil and evil faithful Muslim as 100% evil. We disagree about these things even if we agree that Islam is not the true religion.

IC XC

A note to Cearnaigh:

Thanks for the English lesson, but I NEVER capitalize allah, islam, mohammed or muslim.

Just a little quirk of mine. As Havoc said, we do it on purpose.

ImNoDhimmi,

You aren't going to thank me for the NT Greek lesson?!?! I am so offended... ;)

I am KIDDING.

IC XC

"You seem to want to paint Islam as 100% evil and evil faithful Muslim as 100% evil. We disagree about these things even if we agree that Islam is not the true religion."

islam is an abomination on mankind and any muslim that does take the qur'an faithfully as well as the examples of mo-bomb-ed are evil. That doesnt make all muslims bad.

"You position seems to be that no non-Muslim could ever give a false negative impression of Islam to another non-Muslim seems clearly false to me."

Like I said, there is so much in the Qur'an and hadiths as well as all the islamic terrorism around today that nothing anyone says about islam thats false isnt going to make any impact in which we are contributing to islam's bad reputation.

It would be like saying a lie about Hitler would be contributing to his bad reputation.

Elric66,

Hmmm...

"It would be like saying a lie about Hitler would be contributing to his bad reputation."

You see... I am a person concerned with TRUTH. I think that lying about Hitler's bad reputation WOULD contribute to it (I can't see how it would not) EVEN THOUGH Hitler was did such evil things.

I hope you continue to deny that I may have a point because you are concerned about debate points over truth... because it's beginning to come off that way to me.

IC XC

Cearnaigh,

Think whatever you like. Im not going to accuse non Muslims for Islam's tarnished reputation. Islam brought it upon itself.

Elric66,

People wonder why Mr. Spencer's ideas are derided by the popular media... I don't think it's so much because Mr. Spencer doesn't ask good questions based on what he has read, but... maybe because some of the people who comment here come off as unreasonable anti-Muslim bigots.

IC XC

Cearnaigh,

Now you are blaming us because the MSM doesnt listen to Mr Spencer? LOL

"....maybe because some of the people who comment here come off as unreasonable anti-Muslim bigots."

So what?

Better than being an unreasonable pro-muslim apologist!

Elric66,

Well... since things in your mind seem to work as as black or white/all or nothing... I could see why you might perceive things that way.

There are NEVER EVER multiple reasons that contribute to anything... ugh...

That's reasonable!! Not!

IC XC

ImNoDhimmi ,

He doesnt seem to mind the bigoted Qur'an just anti-Muslim bigots.

Bigot : One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Yep, that sums up Islam

ImNoDhimmi,

I am not a apologist for Islam... nor do I know what "pro-Muslim" even means...

I am Christian. I don't regard Islam as the true religion, nor do I regard Muhammad as a Prophet of God. That DOES NOT MEAN that I think that Islam should be dealt with "by any means necessary" (like misinformation, lying, bigotry, etc)...

You seem to be saying those things are fine...

I guess we disagree.

IC XC

Elric66,

I have no ideas where you get your ideas about me...

You wrote:
"He doesnt seem to mind the bigoted Qur'an just anti-Muslim bigots."

I don't know where I even hinted such a thing...

You don't seem to be a very reasonable person.

Any argument is good as long as it attacks Islam... that seems to be your approach - whether the argument is true or not seems to be secondary to you.

Oh well...

IC XC

Cearnaigh,

How would you deal with Islam?

Cearnaigh:
"That DOES NOT MEAN that I think that Islam should be dealt with "by any means necessary" (like misinformation, lying, bigotry, etc)..."

Ok, then show me one single "misinformation", "lie", "bigotry" or "etc" on this site or in Robert Spencer's books?

Elric66,

You asked me how I would deal with Islam? I suppose I would first admit that I have a great deal to learn about Islam... I know very little about it from historically, textually... at least from scholarly sources.

I am skeptical of all non-Christian religions, as I am a Christian. I think they are all a mixture of truth and error.

I think that it is obvious that ***some*** Muslims are very violent against non-Muslims even when the non-Muslims are not attacking said Muslims. Why? I am not altogether certain of the why... there seems to be that these Muslims understand their religion to demand certain violent behavior of them. Not all Muslims think this... I don't know why... I don't think myself an expert on these matters to conclude which person is understanding the religion correctly.

I regard the jihadists as dangerous zealots with a dangerous understanding of their religion.

I don't know what the very best way to deal with this problem is...

I just don't think that being unreasonable and untruthful as means to an end (the end being the destruction of Islam and all Muslims, for example) is the right way to go about it...

Some people here seem to disagree with me on this point.

IC XC

"I would first admit that I have a great deal to learn about Islam... I know very little about it from historically, textually... at least from scholarly sources."

Thats where you need to start. Once you really understand Islam, it will change your entire outlook.

LazarOfSerbia,

Have you been reading my posts? Is English your 2nd language? Just wondering because...

I have not said ANYTHING (read: not one thing) negative about Robert Spencer nor his books... ISTM that I have said almost the opposite, but... sheesh.

ISTM there is a difference between what Robert Spencer says, writes, his tactics, etc... and the comments on the postings on this site... that's been my point from the beginning.

IC XC

p.s.
I own several Spencer books, btw...

Elric66,

I will never think it will be beneficial to lie about Islam in order to defame it because the ends justify the means.

I think Robert Spencer would agree with me.

IC XC

Cearnaigh,

I must address some of your words from your initial posting.

You wrote:
"Would Huckabee have been more correct if he had said, "This isn't a Muslim problem generally as much as it is a jihadist problem specifically?""

In short, no. This is a common tactic, to substitute "Muslim" for "Islam". While they are no doubt related, they are not the same. It is entirely plausible to condemn Islam in totality for its divine mandates against all other-faiths and still not even come close to condemning all Muslims.

It is doubtful you have been reading for over a year, for you missed a fundamental point. While there may very well be the "moderate" Muslim, there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam.

You wrote:
"That faithful Muslims are seconds away from strapping on dynamite vests, and the Muslims who aren't aren't faithful Muslims. That, for me, is a point FAR from being proved."

That position has rarely if ever been taken here by a commenter at this site.

You wrote:
"If I am called an idiot for seeing things this way... I think I will know what conclusion to draw about the people who post comments here."

Not an idiot, simply ill-informed or willfully disingenuous. Making a statement that opinions which differ from yours does not validate your position.

you wrote:
A Christian is a child of God.
A muslim is a slave of allah.
"Two points...
1. The words "Muslim" and "Allah" should be capitalized in the same manner as you capitalized "Christian" and "God.""

This statement belies an agenda. It certainly was not presented as a helpful corrective measure. no one who has seriously "read this site for over a year" and uinderstand the content provided here, would chose this as the first example to sound-off on.

You are fully aware of the reason behind the "mistake". It is also apparent that you took offense to it.

I will never think it will be beneficial to lie about Islam in order to defame it because the ends justify the means.

Posted by: Cearnaigh at January 17, 2008 3:27 PM

And what "lie" would that be that you are concerned has been put forth here?

awake,

Very well put.

"People wonder why Mr. Spencer's ideas are derided by the popular media....."

...Mr Spencers ideas are solely his, and he is respected by the media....he makes no claim to the ideas of bloggers...his ideas are often derided by the dhimmis in the press corp and other self proclaimed Islamic authorities (such as D'Nesh D'Sousa or Ibrihim Hooper or even Adam Ghadann....all have posted here....)

....I find Mr Spencer to be truthful and dedicated to revealing the truth about Islam and about the Islamic plans for the future....

....He does not make up stories of Muslim activities...he reports facts...The Muslims provide the acts that are reported on...

...you just can't make this stuff up....

Ladies and gentlemen

Whoever and whatever 'cearnaigh' is, they have expertly hijacked this thread.

The best thing to do is go right back on topic regardless.

The subject under discussion is a group of Muslims, within the sovereign state of Serbia, one of whom, who for avowed religious reasons - due to his group belonging to what one might call a 'revivalist' 'let's get back to that good old-time religion' strain of Islam - has, in the midst of a Serbian court, openly declared his contempt for the state of Serbia and for its laws.

Let's all think about that for awhile.

And let's compare Mr Hodzic's explicit statement with some of the other data points we have - for example, certain imams who in Australia, and elsewhere, have told their flocks to practise tax evasion rather than pay money to that illegitimate Infidel authority; the would-be jihad raiders who have initially brought themselves to the attention of the police by various forms of vulgar lawbreaking ranging from the petty (traffic violations) to the spectacular (armed robbery of gas stations).

And let's think about this passage from a Muslim 'expanded translation' of the Quran:
Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote:
“Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated.

"By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish.

"Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”

Note that line that 'by abandoning Jihad...Muslims fall into an inferior position...their rule and authority vanish".

This, of course, carries the obvious implication that Muslims take up jihad in order to obtain a superior position, and in order to obtain/ maintain 'rule and authority'.

Cearnaigh

- "Have you been reading my posts?"

No. You are writing nonsense and I have business to do.

- "Is English your 2nd language?"

No. It's my 3rd language after Serbian and Russian.

Comments here on JW are very kind compared to the evil ideology we are talking about.

I capitalize. I speak and write English, and proper names and places are capitalized, even if I don't particularly like the person or place I'm talking about: Department of Motor Vehicles. Jimmy Carter. And so on.

Besides, you want your presentation to be such that it convinces as many people of goodwill as possible. The lower-case thing puts people off, just as many of us see the use of "xtian" for "Christian" as something meant only to provoke and annoy. And in both cases, one runs the risk of being branded as immature or subliterate (and even if you don't care about that, chances are you do want to be taken seriously). In any case, it's not a good yardstick by which to measure counter-jihad fervor.

If one is that eager to make waves, simply telling the truth about jihad and its basis in Islamic texts and teachings will do that, and it's the most productive track. And be accurate, calm, and persistent.

Now, enough about capitalization. Let's get back on topic.

"“I swear to Allah, there are boys here who wouldn’t even know how to return home from here, let alone finding the American embassy,” he said.

....who said there is no comedy in Islam....

And Cearnigh-- that's far too many posts for one person on a single thread. Please refrain from over-posting, especially off-topic.

Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor

Hi, I've been a JW reader for the past few years & for the last hour or so have been trying to register with TypeKey in order to post here.

This "Cearnaigh" is most definitely a time waster & a troll. A while past I signed an on-line petition in support of Geert Wilders. I used my own name which is Irish. I'm not sure if this is coincidence or not but "Cearnaigh" is using the second element of my surname. Aside from being grammatically incorrect, it is annoying that a provocateur should use my name, especially in this forum. Just ignore him, her or it.

I have contacted the JW administration already with a message to this effect.

All the best, Ua Cearnaigh

DeadRecknoning what a brilliant idea, then go ahead and take 'corrective measures',lets see what the world will be like then. Drop a few nukes mate,that might cause the muslims to bow down in submission to your western values.

In all honesty this website is really full of islamophobes who post comments on this website using Islamic words to make themselves look like experts on the religion. Not one person on here has come up with a post- infact let me rephrase that; a sentence to make me think 'hmm thats a good argument.'
Some of you claim that your hatred is only reserved for those who 'hijack' the religion i.e. terrorists. Nonsense!! Let's not beat about the bush, you hate Islam, which is fine, not a problem at all. But this has me thinking; if you hate Islam, which obviously you do by coming on this ludicrous website, what makes you different to the people who are the target of your abuse, who have every right defend their religion? You say muslims get 'touchy' when their religion or their lifestyle comes under scrutiny. So what brings you all to this website? You are here to vent your anger and hatred of Islam and let it all out. How is that different to Fuad Hodzic?
Muslims are the enemies of the west. The media constantly attacks it and focuses on nothing but the negative stories, which do happen, we are only human. After awhile of being force-fed trash, you'll start thinking trash is the only thing out there.
The one thing that suprises me the most is the fact you blindly follow and believe whatever you hear. That is a characteristic that is rampant in today's world. If Bush says there are WMD's in Iraq, then that means they have to be there, cause he wouldn't lie to his people. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said relating to the signs of Judgement Day: Trustworthiness will be lost, i.e. when authority is given to those who do not deserve it. In no way is Bush trustworthy neither did he deserve to come into power.
I live in Europe and have done so for 16 years I have never come into any problems with a non-muslim because of his religion or his background. So no i refute your claim; muslims have not made it hell for the native europeans, its the media and those in power that have made the people think Islam is the enemy. The media is such a powerful force. They can manipulate anything they deem fit. As a result you have lost all ability with which to reason. Whatever you read and hear must be true. I mean why make those cartoons? If you know people are going to be offended, why do it? It was obviously a calculated attack which got the exact response it desired. Muslims get angry after the religion is mocked in the way that it was, and the media leaps at the opportunity to highlight the protests. 'Look at the muslims! they are such backward people that they can't accept a society which practices free speech.' If the same media were to attack Judaism or Christianity or Hinduism,in the same disgraceful manner they attacked Islam, the world would be uproar.

In France, muslim girls now have to abandon their hijab- which is the head-covering to you experts- for them to be allowed in schools and Universities! Why not order Sikhs to take off their turbans? Isn't that the same thing?
All around Europe Islamophobia has gone to new lengths. Politicians are now national heroes when they 'stand up to Islam and condemn muslims'. They,just like you, claim Islam is on a mission to control the world and impose Sharia law wherever they go. Where did you hear that exactly? Oh thats it the media. What do you experts know about Sharia? Is it a crime that a woman is entitled to similar rights if not more than her husband? Or is it the tax system that you have been using for a millennium? Must be the part about breaking treaties with those who breach them. Hmm could be the part about family and how ensuring family ties are not broken is paramount to a muslim.

You are im sure like the rest of the western world against mosques being built on your lands. Why? I've gone to mosques in this country for many years if the media claim hatred is spread in mosques then I call it nonsense. But thats just a foil for the real truth. The ouright hatred of Islam. You don't want mosques on your lands then say so.

The media has all turned you into paranoid xenophobics at least in Europe. Whereas in America you have no idea what your talking about. Romney says I want to defeat 'Global Jihad'. Which is what?

Communism was once a threat to the west, but for what reason? Islam is the new 'so-called' threat. In the same way communism was indicted as the 'evil ideology' Islam has replaced it. You believed all those stories about communism without questioning them, I doubt this phase- which will be far longer- will be any different for you.
A lot of you need to take more care with what you write as your beginning to sound like hypocryts.

Finally if you were to look through the history books, it is infact Christian nations which have been the aggressors. Colonialism and so on. Once you ruled over these lands what did you do? You spread Christianity. Therefore you converted many nations by force. When did a muslim nation ever attack a foreign land because they had a leader who did not observe Sharia or Islam?
But I have no hatred for Christian nations or any religion or race, why can't you do the same with Islam?
Paranoid xenophobes, with a strong hint of Islamophobia. Quite a mix.

MarisolJW,

I am sorry for over-posting on this thread... I didn't know there was a limit. I was replying to my responses.

A "Fionnbarra" a chara,

I was unaware that Cearnaigh was "grammatically incorrect." I have a right to use "Cearnaigh" as much as you do, I think (Kearney).

I wasn't trying to condemn JW as much as elevate the level of discourse... "Islam sucks" and "faithful Muslims are either terrorists or dumb" (which is, indeed, the impression I am getting from some of the comments) followed by cheers doesn't seem to do it for me, I guess.

If this is too much dominating of this thread... I would be fine taking it somewhere else.

IC XC

thesaracen,

The media? The same media thats too afraid to say the words muslim and terrorism in the same sentence? That media? What planet do you live on?

You sound like a "moderate muslim". Do all moderate muslims blame everybody else for their woes too? Why don't you do something constructive and convince your "brothers" and "sisters" to stop blowing everybody and everything up. Can you do that? No? Why not? Because it's obligatory for every muslim to engage in jihad?

OK saracen,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5BPVF1C5LE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaqUIdrifRA

Wherever do we get these ideas that islam wants to dominate?
/

moslem, allah
Christian, God

Posted by: interestinconundrum

Amen.

“I wasn't trying to condemn JW as much as elevate the level of discourse...”

You mean like,

“Is English your 2nd language? Just wondering because...”

Very elevated!

Thesarace says:

"You [are, I'm sure,] like the rest of the western world against mosques being built on your lands."

I'll answer that question - YES!

And why, might you ask? As someone else here once said, quite succinctly and accurately:

My disrespect for Islam is in direct proportion to the number of churches (and synagogues and temples) in "Saudi" Arabia.

You Europeans have your own problems. We have ours. But we're working on ours (to see the truth).

And to the question "When did a muslim nation ever attack a foreign land because they had a leader who did not observe Sharia or Islam?"

How about those little dust ups in 1948, 1967, and 1973? Does "Team Islam" want to go to Round 4?

Just wondering....

Cearnaigh isn't even a muslim and he is not even defending Islam yet you treat him with disrespect. This backs up my claim that you hate Islam and I can safely not one of you knows a thing about Islam. Anyone one who defends it on this website is a 'troll'.Im not an expert on my religion yet I can debate with the best amongst you. But you don't want that so send the heretic robert Spencer an e-mail and have me banned.

dumbledoresarmy -you didn't answer those questions about the bible I posed you. You're very sneaky but I've tracked you down. So im challenging you to refute the claims I made against the bible since you're one aim is to discredit the Qu'ran.
You claimed muslim woman were treated badly on the order of the Qu'ran. You couldn't back up your claims after I used the Quran and the same verse to destroy your lies.
You're a dumb clown dumbledoresarmy. You're telling people to stay on topic and you're talking rubbish about the Qu'ran. What has that got to do with Fuad Hodzic.
As for the story about an Imam instructing people to evade to tax in Australia. What utter nonsense. There is no way he would be an Imam in the first place if he's telling muslims to disobey laws in a land that is not their own. As long as the laws do not break the commandments of our religion i.e. don't wear a hijab then we must abide by them. Muslims at the end of the day have to be peaceful. Then you ramble on about Jihad so let me give you a break down of what Jihad is.
What im doing now is Jihad. I have not blown myself up or harmed anyone. But I am defending Islam from your lies. Thats a form of Jihad. Another form is to defend your family and your land. Why is that so evil. Wouldn't you defend your land and your family? Another form is to aid any person or nation- regardless of whether they are muslim or not- against oppression. Jihad is a way for us to maintain authority and superiority?? Then why are we not ruling the world? What bollocks. Jihad is not there so that we can go around attacking nations for no reason at all my freind.
Some people have gone to lengths that transgress Islam but I can't judge them as God is the only judge.
If this man Fuad Hodzic was anything other than a muslim, you would call him a hero. You think justice would be served in Serbia?
I have no idea what Hodzic committed, but as for his contempt for a court that is almost certain to convict him because he's a muslim, I call him a hero for showing contempt.

'divine mandates against all other-faiths'
Jews are condemned in the gospel of Luke you hypocryts.

Elric66- Once you really understand Islam, it will change your entire outlook.

You talk so much Bull. You probably read a piece in some newspaper or watched one of those mad news stations and you consider yourself an expert. Look at you talk like your a scholar. I know more about your own religion than you ever will. Read the Qu'ran you bigot. You've never even opened the Quran and ou talk like you know everythings thats in it.

'Think whatever you like. Im not going to accuse non Muslims for Islam's tarnished reputation. Islam brought it upon itself.'
You think muslims care what you think? We will try and reason with you to stop your obvious ignorance but if that fails,then who cares what you think.

LazarOfSerbia- Ok, then show me one single "misinformation", "lie", "bigotry" or "etc" on this site or in Robert Spencer's books?
What a clown, it's all around you dumb fool.

'islam is an abomination on mankind and any muslim that does take the qur'an faithfully as well as the examples of mo-bomb-ed are evil. That doesnt make all muslims bad.'
That's bigotry, written by the same clown that gave a definition of what bigotry is and attirbuted it to Islam.

ImNoDhimmi
'I NEVER capitalize allah, islam, mohammed or muslim'.
What a contribution to JW. Another Bigot. You getting the idea now LazarOfSerbia.

champ-you better have a good answer when you are brought before god to explain what you wrote. Total nonsense. You've just written four paragraphs of speculation, not one line which looks anything like a proper argument, and you give me some website that does exactly the same thing that you did. Have you seen God? Do you know what he looks like?

Moderation = mass murder (Qurayza)
Moderation = institutionaized pedophilia (Iran)
Moderation = sex slavery
Moderation = institutionalized misogyny
Moderation = theft, extortion, protection rackets
Moderation = no free speech murder (Abu, Asma)
Moderation = global Sharia

Errm yeah ok. This is all making sense to me now.

interestinconundrum said:
Time to wake up, fight like there is a monster at the door. Politicians are not helping matters. Now thats exactly the same thing you are all accusing muslims of. LOOK AT WHAT THIS GUY IS SAYING!!!

Remember there is A LOT of differences between the God of the Holy Bible and Allah of the Koran. Because the Bible has relationship with God in the form of sons and daugthers or children of God, thus the sucess of the Jewish/Christian west. The Allah of the Koran is more of a master/slave relationship. The former is built on piety or devotion reverance, the later on a severe fearfulness.
And your point is..... Are you implying Islam must be weaker because we fear our lord?

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
If I were you I'd never work on a Sunday out of fear.
I can't see how everyone on this website sees this close bond between Christians and Jews when historically you hate each other. The Gospels of Luke and Matthew both blame the Jews for Jesus' cruixificion. But in todays PC world biblical scholars are challenging both books and discrediting them on a technicality. 'It wasn't all jews that led to Jesus' death', and we apologise to our Jewish brethren for appearing anti-semitic.

Hugh- Go to hospitals, get a solicitor, check your school, check the transport system, go to the airport. Are you telling me you won't find a muslim working at these places despite the discrimination he/she had to overcome?
Muslim immigrants have not only helped the economy but they also help you because without them you will have a lackof nurses,doctors, teachers- a shortage of skilled people basically. Don't forget the massive amount of help they gave especially to Britain after the war. They didn't just come over and sit on their arses. They have contributed to your society. Your just jealous of the success that they have had in integrating in your society and not being intimidated by the decades of abuse they have encountered. They are still there and still contributing. Too add to your ridiculous post, you're claiming Isreal is a victim of the Arab League. Isreal is the biggest beneficiary of aid in the world. Money, weapons, expertise everything is given to it so it can round up Palestinians into refugee camps in their own lands. They are not victim- far from it. Trust me the muslims in Europe face a much more unpleasant time right now. Every terrorist attack has repurcussions for them to a far greater degree than you'll ever come across.

to make life "better" and to bring "democracy" to "ordinary moms and dads" (also sprach Bush) in the Middle East, has made it possible for the Saudis and other rich Arabs to pay for mosques, madrasa'.... errm says who and I think their oil made them rich not democracy. Did the people of the middle east ask for democracy or was it imposed on them?

Rather, to paraphrase Robert Spencer, "good is identified with anything that redounds to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harms them, without reference to any larger moral standard".
I can't see you're point. You're mentioning something that any human would want. Do you want harm to come to you? I doubt it.

mrockroll1969- I live on earth mate. Fox news never shies away from defaming Islam. They were the media last time I checked. They are not afraid at all because I study the media and I see it everyday. If you are correct then rightly so. They tarnish Islam by saying we are terrorits, they should be weary before they use the two terms together. Suicide bombers cannot be judged by me.I don't agree with it but it's not my place to condemn people, unlike you. And suicide bombing is not jihad or Islam. Anything else???

interestinconundrum- you got the video of three guys who are doing a noble cause no doubt. They haven't been violent or spread hatred. How does that back up your point? a few placards represents the beliefs of more than a billion people?

get out of Afghanistan get out of Iraq? As for the placards of beheadings and massacres. They are only placards. US forces literally massacre innocent civilians in Iraq.
Cearnaigh isn't even a muslim and he is not even defending Islam yet you treat him with disrespect. This backs up my claim that you hate Islam and I can safely not one of you knows a thing about Islam. Anyone one who defends it on this website is a 'troll'.Im not an expert on my religion yet I can debate with the best amongst you. But you don't want that so send the heretic robert Spencer an e-mail and have me banned.

dumbledoresarmy -you didn't answer those questions about the bible I posed you. You're very sneaky but I've tracked you down. So im challenging you to refute the claims I made against the bible since you're one aim is to discredit the Qu'ran.
You claimed muslim woman were treated badly on the order of the Qu'ran. You couldn't back up your claims after I used the Quran and the same verse to destroy your lies.
You're a dumb clown dumbledoresarmy. You're telling people to stay on topic and you're talking rubbish about the Qu'ran. What has that got to do with Fuad Hodzic.
As for the story about an Imam instructing people to evade to tax in Australia. What utter nonsense. There is no way he would be an Imam in the first place if he's telling muslims to disobey laws in a land that is not their own. As long as the laws do not break the commandments of our religion i.e. don't wear a hijab then we must abide by them. Muslims at the end of the day have to be peaceful. Then you ramble on about Jihad so let me give you a break down of what Jihad is.
What im doing now is Jihad. I have not blown myself up or harmed anyone. But I am defending Islam from your lies. Thats a form of Jihad. Another form is to defend your family and your land. Why is that so evil. Wouldn't you defend your land and your family? Another form is to aid any person or nation- regardless of whether they are muslim or not- against oppression. Jihad is a way for us to maintain authority and superiority?? Then why are we not ruling the world? What bollocks. Jihad is not there so that we can go around attacking nations for no reason at all my freind.
Some people have gone to lengths that transgress Islam but I can't judge them as God is the only judge.
If this man Fuad Hodzic was anything other than a muslim, you would call him a hero. You think justice would be served in Serbia?
I have no idea what Hodzic committed, but as for his contempt for a court that is almost certain to convict him because he's a muslim, I call him a hero for showing contempt.

'divine mandates against all other-faiths'
Jews are condemned in the gospel of Luke you hypocryts.

Elric66- Once you really understand Islam, it will change your entire outlook.

You talk so much Bull. You probably read a piece in some newspaper or watched one of those mad news stations and you consider yourself an expert. Look at you talk like your a scholar. I know more about your own religion than you ever will. Read the Qu'ran you bigot. You've never even opened the Quran and ou talk like you know everythings thats in it.

'Think whatever you like. Im not going to accuse non Muslims for Islam's tarnished reputation. Islam brought it upon itself.'
You think muslims care what you think? We will try and reason with you to stop your obvious ignorance but if that fails,then who cares what you think.

LazarOfSerbia- Ok, then show me one single "misinformation", "lie", "bigotry" or "etc" on this site or in Robert Spencer's books?
What a clown, it's all around you dumb fool.

'islam is an abomination on mankind and any muslim that does take the qur'an faithfully as well as the examples of mo-bomb-ed are evil. That doesnt make all muslims bad.'
That's bigotry, written by the same clown that gave a definition of what bigotry is and attirbuted it to Islam.

ImNoDhimmi
'I NEVER capitalize allah, islam, mohammed or muslim'.
What a contribution to JW. Another Bigot. You getting the idea now LazarOfSerbia.

champ-you better have a good answer when you are brought before god to explain what you wrote. Total nonsense. You've just written four paragraphs of speculation, not one line which looks anything like a proper argument, and you give me some website that does exactly the same thing that you did. Have you seen God? Do you know what he looks like?

Moderation = mass murder (Qurayza)
Moderation = institutionaized pedophilia (Iran)
Moderation = sex slavery
Moderation = institutionalized misogyny
Moderation = theft, extortion, protection rackets
Moderation = no free speech murder (Abu, Asma)
Moderation = global Sharia

Errm yeah ok. This is all making sense to me now.

interestinconundrum said:
Time to wake up, fight like there is a monster at the door. Politicians are not helping matters. Now thats exactly the same thing you are all accusing muslims of. LOOK AT WHAT THIS GUY IS SAYING!!!

Remember there is A LOT of differences between the God of the Holy Bible and Allah of the Koran. Because the Bible has relationship with God in the form of sons and daugthers or children of God, thus the sucess of the Jewish/Christian west. The Allah of the Koran is more of a master/slave relationship. The former is built on piety or devotion reverance, the later on a severe fearfulness.
And your point is..... Are you implying Islam must be weaker because we fear our lord?

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
If I were you I'd never work on a Sunday out of fear.
I can't see how everyone on this website sees this close bond between Christians and Jews when historically you hate each other. The Gospels of Luke and Matthew both blame the Jews for Jesus' cruixificion. But in todays PC world biblical scholars are challenging both books and discrediting them on a technicality. 'It wasn't all jews that led to Jesus' death', and we apologise to our Jewish brethren for appearing anti-semitic.

Hugh- Go to hospitals, get a solicitor, check your school, check the transport system, go to the airport. Are you telling me you won't find a muslim working at these places despite the discrimination he/she had to overcome?
Muslim immigrants have not only helped the economy but they also help you because without them you will have a lackof nurses,doctors, teachers- a shortage of skilled people basically. Don't forget the massive amount of help they gave especially to Britain after the war. They didn't just come over and sit on their arses. They have contributed to your society. Your just jealous of the success that they have had in integrating in your society and not being intimidated by the decades of abuse they have encountered. They are still there and still contributing. Too add to your ridiculous post, you're claiming Isreal is a victim of the Arab League. Isreal is the biggest beneficiary of aid in the world. Money, weapons, expertise everything is given to it so it can round up Palestinians into refugee camps in their own lands. They are not victim- far from it. Trust me the muslims in Europe face a much more unpleasant time right now. Every terrorist attack has repurcussions for them to a far greater degree than you'll ever come across.

to make life "better" and to bring "democracy" to "ordinary moms and dads" (also sprach Bush) in the Middle East, has made it possible for the Saudis and other rich Arabs to pay for mosques, madrasa'.... errm says who and I think their oil made them rich not democracy. Did the people of the middle east ask for democracy or was it imposed on them?

Rather, to paraphrase Robert Spencer, "good is identified with anything that redounds to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harms them, without reference to any larger moral standard".
I can't see you're point. You're mentioning something that any human would want. Do you want harm to come to you? I doubt it.

mrockroll1969- I live on earth mate. Fox news never shies away from defaming Islam. They were the media last time I checked. They are not afraid at all because I study the media and I see it everyday. If you are correct then rightly so. They tarnish Islam by saying we are terrorits, they should be weary before they use the two terms together. Suicide bombers cannot be judged by me.I don't agree with it but it's not my place to condemn people, unlike you. And suicide bombing is not jihad or Islam. Anything else???

interestinconundrum- you got the video of three guys who are doing a noble cause no doubt. They haven't been violent or spread hatred. How does that back up your point? a few placards represents the beliefs of more than a billion people?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ttTayJRsmWU

This video shows a US air force pilot taking out a group of 30-50 iraqi civilians who are fleeing from a gun battle in their neighbourhood. The pilot said to command control what should I do. Within a split second CC ordered him to take out the civilians. They are civilians by the way. Is that not a massacre? And's just one of many that have been reported so don't show me these videos like you got a point. They are a drop in the ocean compared to the coalition's antics in Iraq and Afghanistan.

thesaracen:

Do you feel better, now?

boneshack 1948, 1967, and 1973- unlike the rest of you're buddies I won't pretend to be a scholar. So bring it on what happened in these dates that you have mentioned? Can't be the Isreali wars with the Arab nations could it?

thesaracen,

"I don't agree with it (suicide boming) but it's not my place to condemn people, unlike you. And suicide bombing is not jihad or Islam. Anything else???"

Well you and your "moderate" friends better start condemning those suicide bombers, because, if you don't, when the shit hits the fan (and it will), we won't be trying to distinguish between "moderate" or "extremist" muslims.

And as for suicide killing in the quaran, check out 9:111

What an idiot - doesn't even know how to use cut an paste!

That whole rant was filled with repetitions, and a whole lot of non-answers.

I love his single theme that not one the single of us knows anything about Islam.

I guess that Bachelor of Science degree in READING means nothing these days.

Jeez, Louise...

And as for our military hitting civilians, we wouldn't have to if your "brave" moslem "warriors" would stop hiding behind women and children.

And don't give that BS how islam is always being sooo opressed. Out of all the battles mohemed fought, only one of them was defensive. Look at all the countries moslems took over so far; Look at all of the people who died from moslem invasions.

mrockroll1969- I don't care if you don't distinguish between a moderate and an extremist because there are no such things. I am a muslim.

Surah At-tawbah (9:111) does not say commit suicide. Fighting and dying in god's cause is not suicide. They are martyrs not people who have committed suicide. Come to think of it martys are held in high-esteem in Christanity and in most religions so what you talking about?

Do you even know what a mrtyr is? It is NOT somebody who kills people.

A martyr is someone who would die without renouncing their faith.

A martyr has NOTHING to do with killing people.

"One of the accused, Fuad Hodzic, before entering a plea on charges of terrorism and illegal arms possession asked the court to bow and say a prayer before refuting charges against him. He said the indictment was a charade."

Are we certain that he wanted the entire court to bow down and pray, or might he have asked for permission for himself to pray? Could this be bad phrasing by the reporter?

I'm just thinking about the way the media can confuse things (such as the difference between "renounce" and "denounce").

9:111 says that it's o.k to slay and BE SLAIN for the jihad cause. That it suicide killing.

TheSaracen says:

boneshack 1948, 1967, and 1973- unlike the rest of you're buddies I won't pretend to be a scholar. So bring it on what happened in these dates that you have mentioned? Can't be the Isreali wars with the Arab nations could it?
--------------------------------------------
Well, duh, yeah, the ARAB aggressions against Israel.

Here's an idea: Why don't you use that Western technology in front of you to LEARN how the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis took it up themselves, and three separate occasions, to "rectify" UN Resolution 181.

If, Sir, you deny these facts, then you, Sir, ARE a true blue Muslim.

May the True God (not Allah) help you.

To borrow a moslem trick, "fighting" doesn't necessarily mean physical violence. It can mean standing our ground against the creeping sharia that is occurring all our the world. It can mean fighting by legislation. We have a right to defend our Western way of life, even if you find it haram.

Thesaracen:

You know what? I ABROGATE my last statement above.

You are not a TRUE Muslim. In fact, I think you are Adam Garbagecan, or maybe his clone. True Arabs acknowledge that they got the sh*t kicked out out them in '48, '67, and '73. And by whom? The Israelis.

And I asked you before: Is "Team Islam" prepared and ready for Round 4 of this A$$ Kicking contest?

Slink back into your hole.

Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."

Thesaracen:

You know what? I ABROGATE my last statement above.

You are not a TRUE Muslim. In fact, I think you are Adam Garbagecan, or maybe his clone. True Arabs acknowledge that they got the sh*t kicked out out them in '48, '67, and '73. And by whom? The Israelis.

And I asked you before: Is "Team Islam" prepared and ready for Round 4 of this A$$ Kicking contest?

Slink back into your hole.

Thesaracen:

You know what? I ABROGATE my last statement above.

You are not a TRUE Muslim. In fact, I think you are Adam Garbagecan, or maybe his clone. True Arabs acknowledge that they got the sh*t kicked out out them in '48, '67, and '73. And by whom? The Israelis.

And I asked you before: Is "Team Islam" prepared and ready for Round 4 of this A$$ Kicking contest?

Slink back into your hole.

boneshack Yes I made a mistake there funny how you should highlight that as its a sign you have nothing to say to my post. So hush your mouth your dimwit.

I love his single theme that not one the single of us knows anything about Islam. The thing is you don't!! you may think you do but it all comes from all those hours wasted reading Robert Spencer's bullshit.
Come up with a proper 'comeback' next time you clown other than a mistake I made on copy & paste.

Arab aggressions against Isreal??? So the Isrealis somehow crash landed in Palestine. How dumb are you? They were the aggressors not only did they force the palestinans out of lands they had owned for centuries; they killed for fun. You can't just come into a foreign land and claim it as your own. Western technology!!! ok then

mrockroll1969
And don't give that BS how islam is always being sooo opressed. Out of all the battles mohemed fought, only one of them was defensive. Look at all the countries moslems took over so far; Look at all of the people who died from moslem invasions. Isreal pays no attention to any UN resolution neither does America. If your point is all those Arab countries couldn't defeat Isreal then your forgetting the fact that Isreal had many allies.

Your beginning to sound desperate. Your clutching at straws because I never said we are oppressed even though we are. I can't remember the last time Muslims invaded a country oh and killed 70,000 innocent old, men, woman and children like those brave crusaders did. What did the Muslims do when they recaptured the Holy city?

9:111 says that it's o.k to slay and BE SLAIN for the jihad cause. That it suicide killing
No it isn't you illiterate. And to be a martyr you don't go an attack some innocent bystander who then kills you. You would consider many of the crusaders as martyrs, didn't they have to kill people?

Look at this, look at that.... where should I look?

boneshack- getting hyped yeah, I will finish you off in any debate, whatever the topic. You're weak.
You're talking about Isreal. You can't finish off Iraq mate with the help of a dozen countries. Round 4 bring it on...

WATCH THIS VIDEO.
What really happened in the middle east.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

Thesaracen banters (again):

boneshack Yes I made a mistake there funny how you should highlight that as its a sign you have nothing to say to my post. So hush your mouth your dimwit.

>> But, Sir, I did.

I love his single theme that not one the single of us knows anything about Islam. The thing is you don't!! you may think you do but it all comes from all those hours wasted reading Robert Spencer's bullshit.

>> No, Sir, unlike you, I have gray matter between my ears. Commentaries by RS and HF comprise less than, say 5% of my time. I do read, however, the true sayings/profile/history of your "Perfect Man", straight from the horse's mouth: Buhkari, Tabari, Muslim, et al.

Come up with a proper 'comeback' next time you clown other than a mistake I made on copy & paste.

>> Let up, man, that was a joke. Oh, I remember, there is no fun in Islam.

Arab aggressions against Isreal??? So the Isrealis somehow crash landed in Palestine. How dumb are you? They were the aggressors not only did they force the palestinans out of lands they had owned for centuries; they killed for fun.

>> The Israelies killed for SURVIVAL!

You can't just come into a foreign land and claim it as your own.

>> Really? Explain what Mohammed and all his successive minions have done for about roughly 1390 solar years?

Western technology!!! ok then

>> Wow, you just don't get it do you? Doesn't the Koran claim to be source of all knowledge?

I didn't think so.

Thesaracen:

"boneshack- getting hyped yeah, I will finish you off in any debate, whatever the topic. You're weak.
You're talking about Isreal. You can't finish off Iraq mate with the help of a dozen countries. Round 4 bring it on..."

You, Sir, are completely delusional, and beyond hope. I will NOT debate you here. Not because I am weak, but because decorum dictates that this thread not become a battleground.

You, Sir, have already lost the battle on many levels. You have proven time and time again that Islam poisons the mind.

Good night!

Allah - the Moon God: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

"The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel. moongod.htm"

"I will finish you off in any debate, whatever the topic."

Posted by: thesaracen at January 17,2008 8:42 PM

The saracen,

In the immortal words of "Doc Holiday" from "Tombstone", played skillfully by Val Kilmer...I say to you:

"I'm your Huckelberry."

Yes, I accept your challenge.

thesaracen wrote:
"You're talking about Isreal. You can't finish off Iraq mate with the help of a dozen countries. Round 4 bring it on..."

This is a statement, which I and others who shall remain nameless on this site, agree with fully.

Islam is Islam. Always has and always will be, with limited modifications which ended in the 12th century. Progress, I guess.

Everyone likes to bet on the strong horse, and Islam, with its historical periods of ebb and flow is currently enjoying a flow, if you will. But, a falling camel attracts many knives.

The Iraq democracy project is an absolute failure, I agree, but not for the reasons that you would put forth. Democracy and Allah's will are diametric opposites. That comprehension is rudimentary, at least to us here at JW, well most of us at least.

That being said, what on God's good Earth would give you the delusion to forecast a global victory for Islam???

Realistically, once awareness is acknowledged, this recent historical blip on the radar screen can be adjusted before this Friday evening's prayers have ended.

An unfortunate reality, but reality nonetheless. Like a cavity-ridden tooth, eventual extraction is imminent. The only question left is, "How painful will it be?"

Define saracen:

1) A member of a pre-Islamic nomadic people of the Syrian-Arabian deserts.
2) An Arab.
3) A Muslim, especially of the time of the Crusades.

"I regard the jihadists as dangerous zealots with a dangerous understanding of their religion."

I don't know what the very best way to deal with this problem is...Posted by: Cearnaigh

Cearnaigh;

Even the Huckster may be helped here.

Ponder this question, are they dangerous zellots because of a true ,correct understanding of the faith of islam, or because they have taken for the ride the misunderstanding of islam, and that itself makes them dangerous?

The answer will lead to the light.

"What did the Muslims do when they recaptured the Holy city?"

.....they did not "recapture" the city at all, they invaded it...the Jewish culture existed thousands of years before the death cult of Islam began....the holy city had many occupiers in its history....the first thing the Muslims did was destroy all the churches (which they still do in todays time), the second thing they did was to kill any important leaders they could find (which they still do in todays time), the third thing they did was to subjugate the citys inhabitants , in effect , turning them into second class citizens (which they still do in todays time).....

one of the earlier occupies of the holy city were the Romans, who virtually destroyed the resident Jewish population (between 63 bce and 313ce)..The Romans renamed Judea Palaestina in order to eradicate all signs of Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

It is believed the word "Palestine" is derived from the "Philistines", one of the ancient Greek people who settled the southern coastal plain of Canaan in 12th century BCE.

The Arabs conquered Palaestina more than two millenia after the Jews began living in the area During all these turbulent times to this day, there has always been a Jewish presence in the area.

OVer all time, there has never been any distintive Palestinian culture or language, and there has never been a country called Palestine governed by Palestinians.

For millenia, the area known as Palestine was a neglected area of desert and malarial swamps, with little cultivated land and few inhabitants.

After the Arab invasions of the seventh century, Arabic became the language spoken, although it was never an exclusively Arab country. No independend Arab or Palestinians state ever existed in the region.

Fast foward to 1947..the United Nations General Assembly Partition Plan...

over 80% of the Land offered to the Jews was desert...while the Arabs were offered large tracts of fertile land on the West Bank and in northern Galilee.

If the Arabs has accepted the UN plan, an Independed Arab-Palestinian state would now be celebrating it 61st anniversary.

Acceptance of the U N partition plan by the Arab states would have meant recognition of Israels right to exist as a sovereign state..

This was not acceptable to the Arab states.

The Arab decision to invade and destroy the newborn state of Israel in 1948, and the war the followed

CREATED THE REFUGEE PROBLEM.....

The responsibility for solving the refugee problem should also rest on the shoulders of those who caused it..

After the 1948 war, the Arab states could have rehabilitated the refugees by integrating them into the various Arab states, from which hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees fled.

Jewish refugees who fled from the Arab states after 1948 never returned to the Arab states.

The Arab states have perpetuated the refugee problem in order to preserve a focus of hatred towards Israel that will never fade.

Between 1948 and 1967, the Palestinian Arabs living on the West Bank and in the Gaza strip were governed by Egypt and Jordan respectively.

The Palestinian refugees never demanded independence from Egypt or Jordan nor was there any willingness on the part of the Arab states to give them independence.

ONE HAS TO ASK...WHY???

The Arab states formed the Arab league, one of the aims which was to find a solution of the Palestinian Issue, yet they did nothing to actively seek a solution to the problem.

ONE HAS TO ASK ....WHY??/

The PLO was formed in 1964...three years before the West Bank and the Gaza strip were captured by Israel during the 1967 war. Since these areas were under Arab rule, what was the purpose of this Organization?....to liberate Palistine...FROM WHOM????

mARCH 26, 1979...Isreal and Egypt sign peace treaty.

April 26, 1982, Israel completes withdrawal from Sinai.

October 30, 1991,Middle East conference in Madrid between Israel and Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and the Palestinians,

THe negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians were based on a two stage formula" 5 year interim self-government arrangements, to be followed by negotiation on the permanent status issues.

September 13, 1993...The Olso agreement signed by PLO chairman Yassar Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin.

Israel withdrew its troops from Gaza and the West Bank, apart from Hebron, and agreed to Palestinian self government in these areas. In the accompanying "Letters of Mutual Recognition", the PLO was recognized by Israel as the legimitate represenative of the Palestinian Arabs, and the PLO recognized Israels right to exist.

JULY 25, 1994, Israel and Jordan sign peace treaty.

While Israel was preparing for the 1996 elections between Labors Shimon Peres and Likuds Benjamin Netanyahu, a series of lethal bombings was carried out by the Hamas in Jeruselam and other Israeli cities. Israels peace camp felt totally betrayed. The Likud came into power , and the Oslo peace process came to an end.

The Palestinian leadership, Yassar Arafat, in particular,bears a share of the responsibility for the breakdown of the Oslo process--violating the terms of the Oslo agreement by importing arms, by having much bigger security forces than had been agreed to , and by not laying the foundations for a democratic regime.

October 23, 1998..the Wye River Memorandum was signed by Israel and the PLO

September 4, 1999, The Sharm el-Sheik Memorandum was signed by representatives of Israel and the PLO, restating the committment of the two sides to full implementation of all the agreements reached since September 1993

By now the Palestinian Arabs were under self-rule in the cities of Bethelehem, Jenin, Nablus, Qalquila, Ramallah, Tulkarm, parts of Hebron and in over 450 villages.

July 11-26, 2000, THe Camp David Summitt, Israel offered the Palestinians the best deal ever...AND ARAFAT BACKED DOWN.

Peace is within reach if the Palestinian Arabs come to terms with two basic notions;

ALL OR NOTHING contradicts the basic concept of negotiations. and the state of Israel does not have an expiry date.

and so it goes...Israel continues to offer peace the the Palestinians continue to refuse

The passive-aggressively sly and slippery poster "Cearnaigh" wrote:

1. I have a great deal to learn about Islam... I know very little about it from historically, textually... at least from scholarly sources.
Posted by: Cearnaigh [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 17, 2008 3:19 PM

and

2. p.s.
I own several Spencer books, btw...
Posted by: Cearnaigh [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 17, 2008 3:24 PM

Either "Cearnaigh" does not read the books he "owns", or if he has read the Spencer books he owns, then he has ignored the wealth of data and reasonable interpretations contained therein, whose assimilation by his clever brain would have already graduated him from "knowing very little about Islam historically, textually" to knowing about it enough not to pester us with his assinine quibbles.

boneshack- im not delusional. I have no hate for you or or you're religion. All the vile hatred is coming from you. To not want to debate me- after explicitly asking for 'round 4'- is a good idea, keep you're dignity or whatever is left of it. Islam hasn't poisoned me or the millions of former Christians who have embraced Islam. Far from it, infact it's a religion which brings you inner peace because it brings you close to god. Isn't it sad how you come on hear talking about how bad Islam is and everyday western people are converting? The few apostates that you have are heroes to you. They are propelled to the media limelight and given awards for talking rubbish about Islam. I have lost any battleor debate to you or to any of you're fellow heretics. I challenge anyone on here to a debate. By a debate, I mean hard facts from the Quran not speculation or something you read of another website, which is what you're all doing.

champ- The word for God in arabic is Allah. The pagans knew from their forefathers the term Allah for god, because Allah or god was there from the beginning of time from Adam pbuh right through to Muhammed pbuh. So these pagans worshipped an idol who they claimed was god and in Arabic, what is the term for god? Out of this idoltary came the Quran to bring people back to the belief in one god. iF you believe you're claim about this moon god to be true, where is this moon god in today's world? How come muslims never pray to this god you're talking about? and why did prophet Muhammed pbuh go into the Ka'aba and destroy all the idols after the muslims captured Mecca from the oppressing Quraysh. So you can bin that claim right now. Infact don't even reply to this post as you're lack of intelligence has been exposed.

awake
Islam is Islam. Always has and always will be, with limited modifications which ended in the 12th century.
Then Islam must be the true religion as it remains the same Islam that Allah swt revealed. Basically you've just backed up its authenticity. How can a religion claim to be one if it has to change and cater for different periods of time. Islam applied at the time of the Prophet pbuh and it applies today without any need for modifications.
Islam has been defending itself for centuries and yet in today's world it is the fastest growing religion and is as strong as ever. The crusaders couldn't destroy it how are your feeble words any different. If you think a blip on the radar may do the trick then go ahead and do it. Don't talk just do it.

That being said, what on God's good Earth would give you the delusion to forecast a global victory for Islam.
Time will tell.
You're hypocrisy has once again come to the fore. You're accusing Islam of wanting supremcy and global domination- It is the west that has longed for these things and you'd be delusional to deny it.
They captured the holy city and routed an army three times there size you fool. The crusaders from every christian nation and were sent home packing and only recaptured the holy city after coming up with even bigger force, where they decided to show off their bravery by killing every man and woman and child.

exsgtbrown
Yes the jews inhabited Palestine before the arabs but they left in their millions and emigrated to all corners of the globe. Then after the holocaust they thought to themselves 'we need a home for the jews' lets go to Palestine, it doesn't matter if we haven't inhabited it for centuries. Since you are bringing up this story about this Isreal, what was the story behind the creation of the United States. Correct me if im wrong Native Americans lived there before you. They own the land, you shouldn't be there.
Isreal is your daddy anyway. If Isreal goes behind you're back, it's OK, you forgive and forget. Isreal wants money, weapons you give it to them. And all this comes from the tax that you pay after working you're balls off to provide for yourselves.
you're trying to give me some historical lecture, but its no use talking to someone who highlights points that favour his argument and turns a blind eye to points that may weaken it. Offers peace! The Palestinians are not dumb and they have every right to stand up for what is rightfully there's. Why should they accept deals that favours the Isreali's who are occupying their lands?

'The Palestinian leadership, Yassar Arafat, in particular,bears a share of the responsibility for the breakdown of the Oslo process--violating the terms of the Oslo agreement by importing arms, by having much bigger security forces than had been agreed to, and by not laying the foundations for a democratic regime.'

This highlights exactly my point. Why is it okay for Isreal to import weapons to use against Palestinian refugees but Yasser Arafat may he rest in peace cannot. He had every right to break the Oslo treaty if those were the terms. What kind of shit is that? He can't have a big security force hahahaha.
WHO's YOUR DADDY!!!!

Thesaracen is back!

"..Yasser Arafat may he rest in peace."

So you've just elevated the terrorist Yasser Arafat to "Prophet" status. Nice job.

Let's continue...

boneshack- im not delusional. I have no hate for you or or you're religion. All the vile hatred is coming from you. To not want to debate me- after explicitly asking for 'round 4'- is a good idea, keep you're dignity or whatever is left of it.

>> For the record, I do not hate Muslims; I only have disrespect for the "cult" of Islam. I never said the word 'hate'.

>> As for Round 4, that reference, Sir, was directed at the Arab nations that deny the right of existence of the sovereign Nation of Israel. They attacked Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973, unprovoked by the Nation of Israel.

>> I have my dignity, Sir, in the truth. What say you?

Islam hasn't poisoned me or the millions of former Christians who have embraced Islam. Far from it, infact it's a religion which brings you inner peace because it brings you close to god.

>> You fear your "ilah", and you certainly don't desire a connection with him/her/it. You said this yourself.

Isn't it sad how you come on hear talking about how bad Islam is and everyday western people are converting?

>> Converting people via Da'wa and Taqyyia is hardly noble, and surely not credible.

The few apostates that you have are heroes to you. They are propelled to the media limelight and given awards for talking rubbish about Islam. I have lost any battleor debate to you or to any of you're fellow heretics. I challenge anyone on here to a debate. By a debate, I mean hard facts from the Quran not speculation or something you read of another website, which is what you're all doing.

>> Fine. If you're going to use the Korant, then you have already lost this battle.

BTW, you never did answer my question about the Arab aggression against Israel in 1948, 1967, and 1973.

thesaracen -

Allah cannot be the God of the Bible, and here are some reasons why.

Islam's Quran and its own adopted practices prove that Allah cannot be the God of Christianity. In Arabic the word 'Allah' may mean 'god' but that does not mean Allah and the God of the Bible are one and the same. They cannot be because:

Islam has come to mean 'submission', and the goal of Islam is to bring the whole world into submission to Allah. The Quran (Sura's 2, 4, 5, 9 and 47) teaches that all 'infidels' (non-Muslims) must either convert to Islam or be killed or enslaved.

The God of the Bible tells us that conversion is the work of God, therefore no-one can be forced to convert to Christianity. No one!

The Quran says God has no son and is not a father. It rejects the Trinitarian God of the Bible. Muhammad taught that Jesus and Christians were not to be taken as friends (Sura's 5 and 9).

Allah was the pagan moon god of Mohammed's Quresh tribe represented by various idols, including a sacred stone. The God of the Bible forbids idolatry.

Islam teaches the creation of a Muslim empire and the use of lethal force against opponents. The God of the Bible affirms that His kingdom is not of this world and commands that Christians love those who oppose them (John 18:34 and Matthew 5:44).

Muhammad, the founder of Islam and supposedly the last of God's prophets, performed no miracles. Jesus Christ the true Son of God and seal of all God's prophets performed many miracles - proving His claims to divinity. The God of the Bible performs miracles. The God of Islam is unconcerned with the human condition and has NEVER miraculously demonstrated a loving concern for individuals.

Muhammad is declared a sinner in the Quran (Sura's 9, 40 and 48). Jesus Christ was and is sinless.

The Quran often contradicts the Bible. It denies that Jesus was God incarnate or that he died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins. Within this context alone the following verse testifies that Allah cannot be the God of the Bible:

Romans 10:9: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord', and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Champ,

I know it's late, but thanks for keeping an eye on this thread. I certainly will monitor it until this troll answers our questions.

Of course, in a matter of a few days, this thread will be relegated to the hallowed "archives" of JW.

So a note to Thesaracen:

If you want to continue this debate, you'd better pick a new thread, else your lies will expire like a fart in the wind.

And again to Thesaracen:

Have a very happy Ashoura! Will you be:

A. Commemorating the release of the Isrealites from Egypt, or

B. Cutting and beating yourself in remembrance of Hussein ibn Ali, killed at the Battle of Karbala.

Your answer ,Sir, can only be either A or B. There is no in between.

Hey boneshack :-)

I'm about to retire for the night, but I will check it again tomorrow morning. If he doesn't respond by tomorrow, then he's bound to appear on another thread. Oh goodie!

....he's actually pretty harmless....sort of like a toothless dog with a muffled growl. Yawn!

Nighty Night!

Islam has come to mean 'submission', and the goal of Islam is to bring the whole world into submission to Allah. The Quran (Sura's 2, 4, 5, 9 and 47) teaches that all 'infidels' (non-Muslims) must either convert to Islam or be killed or enslaved. Its the west thats wants submission stop denying it. Kill all infidels and enslave them!!! show me where you pork eating, homosexual. You stink of lies, your breath stinks of it.

The God of the Bible tells us that conversion is the work of God, therefore no-one can be forced to convert to Christianity. No one!
ermmm Spanish Inquisition, colonialism... should I go on. Islam doesn't teach muslims to forcefully convert anyone either. And everything that happens on this earth is the work of god, the one true god who is not part of three and niether does he have a son.

Surah Al-Kafiroon
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

'The Quran says God has no son and is not a father. It rejects the Trinitarian God of the Bible. Muhammad taught that Jesus and Christians were not to be taken as friends (Sura's 5 and 9). Thats why Islam is the truth. It was revealed because of the man-made errors in the bible. Didn't Jesus say worship one god alone and not believe in this trinity. How can god be 'three' and also have a 'son'. God is one and has no children. Prophet Muhammed pbuh never taught muslims to hate Jesus. What nonsense infact Jesus is held in high regard in Islam and is the one who will defeat the Anti-Christ. He was not crucified nor is he the son of god as explained in the Quran.
Surah Ikhlas
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begets not, nor is He begotten.
And none is like Him.

Surah Al-Nesaa (woman) (4:171)
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

boneshack- Those people you're talking about are Shia's im not a Shia. I class them as disbelievers just like you. Im a Sunni which thankfully the majority of muslims are and we don't have any of these beliefs of cutting yourselves and Ashura and so on. So nice try but not quite.

'Muhammad, the founder of Islam and supposedly the last of God's prophets, performed no miracles.
The disbelievers asked Muhammed pbuh to show them a miracle so by the will of god Muhammed pbuh showed them the moon splitting in two.

Jesus Christ the true Son of God and seal of all God's prophets performed many miracles - proving His claims to divinity. The God of the Bible performs miracles. The God of Islam is unconcerned with the human condition and has NEVER miraculously demonstrated a loving concern for individuals.'
The god of the bible and the god of Islam are one and the same whether you like it or not. And you will be held accountable for your comments. Don't you fear that day?

Muhammad is declared a sinner in the Quran (Sura's 9, 40 and 48). Jesus Christ was and is sinless.
I agree about Jesus but for the Quran to say Muhammed pbuh was a sinner. What an utter lie you have spoken. Show me the exact verse and may god forgive you for your lies.

None of you can accuse of me of not answering questions but thats what im doing with every post but you choose to not pay attention. You come up with a new claim the Quran and the hadith destroys it.

If I'm a troll then your pig. Since you love eating pigs you stink of them and you're probably even starting to look like them.

Thesaracen,

I asked you a simple question but you went off the deep end. The question was pointed exactly at your "religion". If you answered 'A', you're a Sunni; if you answered 'B', you're a Shi'ite. This was not a trick question.

You answered with this, instead: "...we don't have any of these beliefs of cutting yourselves and Ashura and so on. So nice try but not quite."

So, by your Muslim standards, you're the true Muslim.

"If I'm a troll then your pig. Since you love eating pigs you stink of them and you're probably even starting to look like them."

Dude, if I had a choice of being a pig or muslim, I'd rather be a pig! They are far more intelligent, can be tamed, and can even be housebroken.

Isn't time for you to go bang your head again?

boneshack - I do believe that thesaracen feels conflicted!

thesaracen states:

"boneshack - im not delusional. I have no hate for you or or you're religion."

But then thesaracen turns around and ends with this "loving" statement:

"If I'm a troll then your pig. Since you love eating pigs you stink of them and you're probably even starting to look like them."

__________________________________________________

thesaracen asks: "I agree about Jesus but for the Quran to say Muhammed pbuh was a sinner. What an utter lie you have spoken. Show me the exact verse and may god forgive you for your lies."

Below is a prayer prayed by Muhammad himself. It is a synthesis (collection) of his personal prayers found in Sahih Bukhari Volume 8: #s 335, 379, 407, and 408, [1]. Muhammad knew clearly he was a sinner; thus he makes his confession public. Over and over again he stated he was a sinner.

The Quran he spoke identifies him as a sinner. Yet many Muslims today say that Muhammad was not a sinner.

Muhammad's prayer:

"Oh God, I acknowledge and confess before You, all my sins, please forgive them, as no one can forgive sins except You. Forgive my mistakes, those done intentionally, or out of my ignorance, with or without seriousness. Oh God, forgive my sins and my ignorance, forgive my sins of the past and of the future, which I did openly or secretly. Forgive the wrong I have done, jokingly or seriously. I seek Your protection from all the evil I have done. Wash away my sins, and cleanse my heart, from all the sins as a white garment is cleansed from the filth, and let there be long distance between me and my sins."

This prayer and other information can be found on this link:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/mo-sinner.htm

Thanks Boneshack!

That's an awesome and very informative website, and I've saved it to my Favorites for future reference.

Only someone in complete denial could defend Islam after reading through a website like that. But hey, people choose to be in denial and to believe in falsehoods & fairy tales; so he/she can just as easily choose to be open minded and examine the Truth about Islam for a change.

And throw down a $5 for me! LOL!!

P.S. Boneshack -

I must confess that I was in denial before discovering the Truth about Islam. I've never been a Muslim, and I never will be, but I used to have some pretty naive/ignorant beliefs about Islam that were based solely upon the notion that I needed to be "tolerant" of other religions.

I've been on JW for about 2 years, and now I have to laugh at some of the ignorant things I used to say and believe about Islam back in the early days; but I've learned a thing or two now (and I'm still learning), and it's no wonder that I got into a few scrapes with other posters due to a lack of knowledge.

Thanks to all who pointed me in the right direction! Iron sharpens iron, so thanks for all your help!

boneshack- Shia's are not muslim. I don't class them as muslims niether does the Quran or the Sunnah. Had there been Shia muslims at the time of the prophet pbuh then you may have a point, but they didn't exist until a few centuries after the death of the Prophet pbuh. There's only one way to follow Islam the way of the Prophet pbuh end of story. I see you're ignorance so I'll let you mull over this point for a few years before you realise what is Islam and what isn't. Christians in the Phillipines and a few other countries renact the so called cruxificion of Christ. They go through the whole fictional process from carrying the cross on their backs to having their feet and hands impaled on the cross. Is that something you do? Is that what mainstream Christians do? Im sure its something that the bible doesn't call for.

Then be a pig if thats what you wish. In your current state of delusion- A pig is far better than you anyway.

champ how many more times am I going to make you look stupid before you desist from defaming the religion and our beloved Prophet pbuh. Im afraid I have to wake you up from you're period of enlightenment.

Prophet Muhammed pbuh just like Prophet Jesus pbuh WAS free from the sin that we ordinary humans are culpable of. Now yes he did repent to his lord everyday as many times as possible. But did he repent because he was a sinner?... No the Prophet repented out of piety. You take Jesus as God incarnate, god-like, you worship him. We don't do that with Jesus pbuh or Muhammed Pbuh. They were both humans who were chosen by god almighty as Prophets (messengers). Neither committed the sins you see comitted by ordinary humans, but both repented to their lord. And the sins that you are claiming Muhammed pbuh comitted are not the sins of an ordinary human being, he would repent if he forgot God for one second,or not fulfilling his role as Messenger properly by making a minute mistake. Or for example if he saw a lost child. He would return the child to his/her family, but would see it as a sin if he did not check on the family and see how they were living, are they needy?
After all he was only human and he was not perfect- perfection is reserved for Allah swt alone. And he's constant repenting is an example of the virtues of repentance to our Lord. Everything the Prophet pbuh said or did was an example of pure Islam.

The website you have qouted has lost all credibility in my eyes because they have either(1) misunderstood what equates to a sin when a Prophet of god is the one in question or (2)Knew that Prophets are sinless but to discredit Islam have resorted to feeble and futile attempts to manipulate sayings of the Prophet pbuh. You only speak blasphemy, nothing more.

The words you have qouted from the website are not the exact words of our Prophet pbuh. These are more like the words of the Prophet pbuh.
O Allah! Set me apart from my sins (faults) as the East and West are set apart from each other and clean me from sins as a white garment is cleaned of dirt (after thorough washing). O Allah! Wash off my sins with water, snow and hail.

Just accept that you have nothing concrete with which to discredit Islam because it is the word of Allah swt. Ask Allah for forgiveness. Ask Allah to show you the right way. Ask him to give you a sign. Do this before the day where either your life ends or the last hour is signalled.

But, yes, to concur with you - this poor fellow is conflicted. Can't answer simple questions without reverting to ad hominems.

WHAT QUESTION HAVE I NOT ANSWERED AND WHAT QUESTION WOULD YOU LIKE TO ASK ONLY FOR ME TO DESTROY IT WITH A SIMPLE ANSWER.....

IM ASSUMING YOU'RE NOT EVEN READING MY POSTS. IF SOO..THEN DON'T ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS AT ALL, STAY IN DENIAL.

thesaracen states:

"champ how many more times am I going to make you look stupid before you desist from defaming the religion and our beloved Prophet pbuh."

**You aren't making me look stupid, because the Truth is never stupid, nor can the Truth ever be insulted; and to answer your second question: Never. I will never back down from exposing lies with the Truth.

"Im afraid I have to wake you up from you're period of enlightenment."

**I have already been enlightened to the Truth, so thanks, but no thanks, to the offer.

"Just accept that you have nothing concrete with which to discredit Islam because it is the word of Allah swt. Ask Allah for forgiveness. Ask Allah to show you the right way. Ask him to give you a sign. Do this before the day where either your life ends or the last hour is signalled."

**The Truth that has been brought before you is solid and substantiated by worthy and reliable sources, so I suggest you remove the chip from upon your shoulder and give it a careful & heartfelt read; and I would never pray to a false god, and neither should you.

Thesaracen,

I really don't care about your family squabbles (between the Sunnis or Shi'ites). IMO you guys are free to kill each all day long, as your coreligionist are doing each and every day. If the Koran and the Sunnah don't recognize these "believers" as Muslims, then why? I wasn't aware that there is one shahada for Sunni's and another for Shi'ites.

No, sorry, I don't have myself "crucified". On the other hand, I would never contemplate strapping on 10 to 15 pounds of high explosives and detonating myself in the local Baptist church, either.

"Then be a pig if thats what you wish. In your current state of delusion- A pig is far better than you anyway."

Thank you for the compliment! Why can't you utter one statement without contradicting yourself?

"There's only one way to follow Islam the way of the Prophet pbuh end of story."

Yeah, and we know how that turns out. Go bang your head some more. And yes, I do read your posts, but usually don't get through them all because I can't control my laughter!

I'll let Champ defend his statements now...

Hi Boneshack - I think I'll join you and leave thesaracen alone - sounds like he needs to cool his jets.

Have a great day!

Thesaracen,

"WHAT QUESTION HAVE I NOT ANSWERED AND WHAT QUESTION WOULD YOU LIKE TO ASK ONLY FOR ME TO DESTROY IT WITH A SIMPLE ANSWER.....

IM ASSUMING YOU'RE NOT EVEN READING MY POSTS. IF SOO..THEN DON'T ASK ME ANY QUESTIONS AT ALL, STAY IN DENIAL."

Getting confrontational, my friend, will not win you any brownie points. I have asked you at least direct, simple, straight-shooting questions, but you completely evaded answering them.

You are very free to defend your faith all day and night long, but dude, slip off the blinders and have a rational discussion that doesn't involve prattling of verses of the Koran.

Champ,

Thanks! And do be sure to read those two references I mentioned. You can download the pdf files and read them at your leisure. I refer to them quite often for ammo.

Thanks - and I will definitely make a point of studying those two files. Take care! :-)

boneshack- No, shia's are not my brothers neither are they considered muslims. You still want to continue talking about it?

You want Direct, straight shooting answers I'll give them to you. Where then you will accuse me if not answering the question.
I've so far answered every question you've asked exactly in the way you didn't want them answered free of contradictions, perfectly rational explanations. Yet it seems it's not enough. You don't want me qouting the Quran because it destroys your claims but if you want a rational discussion without qoutes from the Quran fair enough.
Let's see this ammo you're speaking of.

champ- you say you know the truth why is boneshack lecturing you. Why have I lectured you and made you look like a silly school-boy even though you're more of an old-fart. Read up on the websites they are you're homework set you by boneshack.

And do be sure to read those two references I mentioned. boneshack

and I will definitely make a point of studying those two files. champ

Yes Mr boneshack I will read them.

It's so bad that boneshack has to even defend you. Leave the site please....

I check these websites you're experts have written and laugh. Even this Robert Spencer is a lunatic who doesn't know what he's talking about. Robert Spencer you heard of Dr Zakir Naik, Well he would laugh at you. Why not debate him?

I owe everyone of you who I have spoken of in a bad way a sincere apology. I have been arrogant and have forgotten the reason why I came on this website which was to defend Islam in a way the Prophet pbuh would have done. Humility, tolerance and patience, whilst ensuring that people whichever religion they observe were treated with kindness. I have no problem with Christanity,or judaism thats you're religion and as I have said before I have no right to force you to change. If it has appeared that way then once again I apologise.
We are all forgetting in this current climate that we are all humans. We bleed the same blood, we breathe the same air, we have two legs and two arms. We all forget this, because of our different beliefs.
So I strongly urge you to do as I do from now on and talk about other religions in a way that is not derogatory or blasphemous. Seek knowledge from all sources before you come to a conclusion.

In a court case the judge and jury don't just take the testimony of one side, they hear both.
I look forward to hearing you're replies.

Thesaracen (Adam),

boneshack- No, shia's are not my brothers neither are they considered muslims. You still want to continue talking about it?

>> Since you still did NOT answer my question ["If the Koran and the Sunnah don't recognize these "believers" as Muslims, then why? I wasn't aware that there is one shahada for Sunni's and another for Shi'ites.], no, I don't want to continue talking about it because I already know the reason. I just wanted to hear your opinion. That's all.

You want Direct, straight shooting answers I'll give them to you. Where then you will accuse me if not answering the question.

>> See above.

I've so far answered every question you've asked exactly in the way you didn't want them answered free of contradictions, perfectly rational explanations.

>> You seem to be forgetting that I was not your biggest interrogator here. I asked just two or three questions; some you have answered.

Yet it seems it's not enough. You don't want me qouting the Quran because it destroys your claims but if you want a rational discussion without qoutes from the Quran fair enough.

>> Let's see. How many claims have I made in the last 24 hours? ZERO.

Let's see this ammo you're speaking of.

>> See below.

-------------------------------------------------
Since Champ is taking the night off, I will answer some of your other challenges.

champ- you say you know the truth why is boneshack lecturing you. Why have I lectured you and made you look like a silly school-boy even though you're more of an old-fart. Read up on the websites they are you're homework set you by boneshack.

>> This is lecturing? You're pathetic.

"And do be sure to read those two references I mentioned." boneshack

Yes Mr boneshack I will read them.

>> Good. You might learn something.

It's so bad that boneshack has to even defend you. Leave the site please....

>> I should say the same of you. But I won't. I do not condone censorship.

I check these websites you're experts have written and laugh. Even this Robert Spencer is a lunatic who doesn't know what he's talking about. Robert Spencer you heard of Dr Zakir Naik, Well he would laugh at you. Why not debate him?

>> You should pose that question to him via e-mail. This thread goes into "archive" status at midnight.

Thesaracen,

"Seek knowledge from all sources before you come to a conclusion."

A refreshing, candid, and honest thought. I agree.

Apology accepted.

thesaracen - apology accepted. Please take care.

Thesaracen,

And I, too, will repeat Champ's fine words: Take care, and be at peace.

Just so we don't leave in bad blood, remember that everyone is most certainly welcome to comment at Jihad Watch. Keep in mind though, that the singular mission of JW and Robert Spencer is NOT to condemn Islam on the whole.

But please, sir, do me this one single favor. Read JW on a regular basis and keep informed of the events that continue to keep the spotlights on Islam. You are quite welcome to support and defend Islam as a regular participant at JW. But you must be prepared, be rational, and be calm.

If you want to debate Islam on an intellectual level, you will find my people who will surely be glad to engage.

If you want to debate Islam on an emotional level, JW is not the place you.

"We are all forgetting in this current climate that we are all humans. We bleed the same blood, we breathe the same air, we have two legs and two arms. We all forget this, because of our different beliefs."

I believe this as well. We are only trying to understand why so many of your fellow coreligionists don't believe the same.

I hope to see you again sometime.

Thesaracen,

Sorry - minor typo that does need clarification:

If you want to debate Islam on an intellectual level, you will find many people who will surely be glad to engage.

Peace and blessings to you, my fellow human.