Vlaams Belang allies with British National Party

On November 15 of last year, I wrote this about the controversy over whether anti-jihadists should support the Vlaams Belang party or not:

But there is cultural defense and then there is a white supremacism that is based on some idea of racial superiority and inferiority, and has via Hitler a historical link to genocide. They are not the same thing, and a distinction needs to be made between the two. If VB and SD have really made a clean break with the past, make it a complete one: let them deal with the ties to LePen and Haider, and make a distinction between cultural defense and white supremacism that is completely clear and distinguishes their position from the neo-fascists.

Instead, it seems as if the VB has gone the other way. "Right-wingers gather against 'Islamisation,'" from The Australian (thanks to Tanguy):

SEVERAL European far-right parties announced a new organisation aimed at fighting the "Islamisation" of Europe.

The group dubbed "Cities against Islamisation" was presented to the media in the northern Belgian city of Antwerp by Filip Dewinter, head of the far-right Belgian party Vlaams Belang (Flemish Interest) along with Austrian FPOE leader Heinz-Christian Strace and Robert Spieler of the regionalist Alsace First group.

Parties from Britain (the British National Party), Denmark, Germany and Italy were also represented at the launch of the group which has a road-sign-style crossed-out mosque as its logo.

The goal -- fighting the Islamization of Europe -- is laudable. The problem is the BNP. The BNP is an unabashed racial/ethnic party. Its membership statement says:

Membership of the British National Party is open to those of British or kindred European ethnic descent. While we welcome contact and co-operation with nationalists and patriots of other races, and with the many non-whites who also oppose enforced multi-racialism, we ask them to respect our right to an organisation of our own, for our own, as we respect and applaud their measures to organise themselves in like fashion.

The BNP says it is a party for indigenous Britons, but is not white supremacist or hateful. From a Q&A on the BNP site:

iii. Do you believe that blacks or other races are inferior?

No, we have never claimed any such thing. We simply believe that the different races are different, just as men and women are different, and as such they cannot be directly compared.

iv. If you believe that the races are different then you are racists.

Not at all. The definition of a racist is someone who hates people of other races. We do not hate anybody. Anyone who says the BNP is racist is either misinformed or a liar.

Yet even taking them at their word that they are not race supremacists in the National Socialist mode (although there does seem to be a good deal of contrary evidence), I think that their race-based approach is wrong in a number of ways.

1. It's the wrong way to fight the global jihad. The jihad is not a race, Islam is not a race, Muslims are not all of one race. The issues between the Islamic world and non-Muslims are not racial. They are about religious supremacism. Bringing in race just confuses the issue, and allows jihadists and their de facto allies among the Eurabian elites to claim that this whole thing is about racism.

2. To form one group for indigenous Britons and invite people of other ethnicities to form other similar groups reduces virtually every issue to the one non-negotiable issue of race and ethnicity, discourages cooperation, and thus encourages Balkanization, works against the idea of representative government, and obscures the common values of Judeo-Christian civilization that are shared by people of many races and ethnicities.

3. This approach hamstrings and marginalizes the anti-jihad movement. Many people who oppose the Islamization of Europe will never join with a race-based party to do so. Hugh Fitzgerald and I have often commented here over the years about the tragedy in Europe: the mainstream political parties have completely abdicated any responsibility to deal with the Islamization of Europe, thus leaving the field open to groups like the BNP who obscure the issue with racial politics.

4. Many, many people have written here, and will no doubt write again in response to this post, that the BNP is the only party in Britain that is doing anything to resist Islamization, and thus deserves the support of all those who believe there is something worth defending in Western non-Muslim civilization. I don't think that is any sounder an argument than the claim that we must support Hizballah because it builds schools and runs charities when not lobbing rockets at Israeli civilians.

Also, people I respect have pointed out that European culture is being overwhelmed and transformed by out-of-control Muslim immigration, and there is nothing wrong with defending it from that. I agree. But while culture has a racial component, culture and race are not identical. To reduce culture to race on a continent that has seen six million sacrificed to the idolatry of race and blood is not, in my view, the right way to defend European culture -- and there must be articulated a sane and moral alternative that is clearly distinct from that and rejects it utterly. Geert Wilders in the Netherlands has managed to mount a strong stance against Islamization while, as far as I know, avoiding dalliance with racial groups. While I am not a European and am conscious that Europeans will probably charge me with naivete and ignorance, I still don't see why it can't be done in Britain, Belgium, and elsewhere. Such dalliances inevitably raise the specter of neo-Nazism and white supremacism, and allow the mainstream parties to pretend that Europe faces a choice between becoming Eurabia and reviving the gas chamber. There are other ways, there have to be other ways, to deal with this.

The anti-jihad movement, if it is to become mainstream in Europe or the U.S., must articulate a positive vision of defense for the human rights of all people against the ways in which those human rights are contravened under Sharia, and avoid being diverted into side issues and non-issues, or formulating the problem incorrectly. Vlaams Belang, for all its talk about abjuring its past and moving into the mainstream, by allying with the BNP has taking a step in the opposite direction. Europe deserves better, and I hope a better choice will emerge.

As I have said before, I completely disavow all racist and neo-Nazi ideas. I also disavow all race-based approaches to the jihad threat, for the reasons explained above, and will not work with the VB or the BNP. I hope other anti-jihadists will find those arguments compelling and follow suit. In the recent bitter controversy between Charles Johnson and a group of counterjihadists over the nature of the VB, it does appear quite clearly from this new alliance, if it wasn't already, that Charles was right. The VB needs to do much more, and much more clearly, if it really wishes to avoid appearing to oppose Islamization solely on racial grounds. This angry, ugly rift between people I love and respect has disheartened me greatly. I hope now that it can be healed, and that out of it will come a more clearly defined sense of who we are and what we are trying to do.

UPDATE: I am told by sources in Europe that the BNP is not part of this anti-Islamization group. The Brussels Journal lists these groups that were actually there:

Yesterday politicians from several Europeans countries convened in Antwerp, the stronghold of the Flemish secessionist Vlaams Belang party, to establish the international organisation “Cities against Islamization” (CaI). Apart from the Vlaams Belang, the following three parties have joined the organisation: the FPÖ (Susanne Winter’s party, Austria), Alsace d’Abord (a regionalist party from Alsace, France) and Pro Köln (Germany).

The BNP's not being part of this new group, however, does not contradict The Australian's report that the BNP was at the meeting. If they were there, it would be good for the VB to explain why the BNP was there, and why the BNP didn't join. It would also be good now for the Vlaams Belang to renounce and distinguish itself clearly from BNP-style racialism, if it indeed hopes to become a broad anti-jihad party. I hope it will do so.

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574 Comments

Nazis and Jihadists share the same kind of rationalization system-"religion"-ideology for domination, exploitation of the "other". Muslims like to fart platitudes that Islam forbids "racism", but in practice (look at Saudi Arabia) Islam is an Arab-supremacist-racist (BTW, Arabs are Semite-Caucasians) rationalization system. Of course, non-Arabs (wannabee Arabs in the Black African Sudan, wannabee Arabs in formerly Hindu Pakistan, Somalia, etc.) internalize the names and "religion" of the "best people" and bow to the Gas Station. But does anyone really think that Somalis, Paks or Negro Africans would be welcome to immigrate to Arab countries in large numbers-especially Saudi Arabia? Islam is at its core racist and very hypocritical re Arab and other Muslim racism.

Islamic culture lacks the self-criticism that has caused many other cultures to be very critical of Muslim-style belief-systems that rationalize supremacism. There is no difference between Nazi domination and Islam. Both cripple the mind. Both claim one ethnicity as the "best people".

Good words, Robert.

The thing that distress me greatly is to see such a fine bloger like Fjordman caught in this. i love his writting, and I have endorsed it greatly in many online sites/places. However seeing the bed fellows Fjordman has, it's hard to keep up suporting him as I did before.

It's just sad, to say the least. :-/

Both Hitler and Himmler are on record as stating that Nazi ideology is compatible with Islam. Hitler called Christianity "the Jewish Christ creed with its pity ethics". Christianity is at its core Jesus' Sermon on the Mount. It is true that some (Pizarro in Peru, e.g.) tried to turn it into a Muslim style rationalization system for the destruction of indigenous cultures-peoples (as Muslims did in Hindu India). But the teachings of Christ and Muhammad are incompatible. Islam would make no headway in Europe if Europe were truly Christian. Nazism or Islam make gains because Europe is not Christian-with only a handful being true followers of Jesus.

The rise of Nazism in Europe will come for the same reasons that Islam makes headway there. They are flip-sides of the same coin.

I fully endorse the view expressed in this post that the counter-jihad must be kept totally free of the taint of racism. The BNP is not interested in countering jihad but in diverting popular concern about Islamic pressure into boosting its racist agenda.

Incidentally, in his earlier days BNP leader Nick Griffin was associated with a neo-fascist faction (the National Front 'Political Soldiers') which came "to embrace pro-Islamic positions, with public support for the anti-Western, national revolutionary regimes of Qaddafi and Khomeini in Libya and Iran" (from Nicholas Goodrich-Clarke, Black Sun, p. 69).

Colin Meade

I think Hitler sensed that an Islamic Germany would have given perfect "moral authority" to the ideology of Jew-hating and made holy-war-making a mandate that would have propelled Germany to Arab style conquests. It would have made the extermination of the Slavs and Jews in Russia (as it did for Muslims in Hindu India) "holy". Hitler would have invoked Muhammad and quoted the Quran. (He would not have quoted the Sermon on the Mount.)

Europe has to get off its Dutch-style commercial based "tolerance" ("We tolerate anything that does not interfere with commerce")and realize that Islam is as dangerous as Nazism and that ultimately they are perfectly compatible. Hitler saw that.

Relax, folks:

There is no Nazi-party in all of EUrabia that gets even the minimum 3% (or something like that) of votes to get into a parliament.

While Muhammedanism is a serious threat, far more serious than anything else, there is also a racial component: In recent years there have been ever increasing numbers of Africans washed up on EUrabia's shores. While it may be that most of them are Muhammedans, it is definitely a one-way traffic: Europeans have been thrown out of Africa and nobody has any sympathies with the last few hundred white farmers in Mugabes Zimbabwe, why is that? Some people have wizened up and don't see this 'one world-global village' no longer as a desirable utopia, but as a threat to indigenous Europeans. Can you blame them? If Africa is for the Africans then perhaps Europeans have a right to defend their continent from invasion, no?

That doesn't mean the SS and the SA is marching, the fuhrer rants and the concentration camps will be restored.

People are so brainwashed from the left that this Nazi booboo scares them more then any move towards self-preservation.
Lets get the anti-Islamic movement off the ground.

We don't have another one!

Very true. As I've said often, you can't fight green fascism with brown fascism.

"Geert Wilders in the Netherlands has managed to mount a strong stance against Islamization while, as far as I know, avoiding dalliance with racial groups"

Exactly. If it were different, there would be no way I would vote for him.

"I still don't see why it can't be done in Britain, Belgium, and elsewhere"

That puzzles me too. The Austrian FPÖ is no picknick either, and resembles the VB in this matter (except for the separatist platform).
The Danish DF and the Swiss SVP look like clean counterjihad parties though.

Just to be sure, in my post I agreed with Robert's article, not with sheik yer'mami's post just above mine.

There is nothing illegal about the BNP.

They are no worse than the three main stream partiesExcept the Big Three are selling the English down the drain

Conservative Party Criminals

SEX

. Tory Party General election candidate, Michael Powell - Convicted and jailed for 3 years for downloading hardcore child ****.

. Tory Party Councillor (Wickbar/Bristol) Roger Talboys - Convicted and jailed for 6 years for multiple sex attacks on children.

. Tory Party Vice-Chairman of Welsh Conservatives, Andrew Baker - Received a banning order for stalking women.

. Tory Party MP (Billericay) Harvey Proctor - Stood trial for sex offences of a sado-masochistic nature against teenage boys, and was forced to resign.

. Tory Party Councillor ( Stratford-upon-Avon ) Christopher Pilkington - Convicted of downloading hardcore child **** on his PC. Placed on sex offenders register and forced to resign.

. Tory Party councillor ( Coventry ), Peter Stidworthy - Charged with indecent assault of a 15-year old boy.

. Tory Party Mayor ( North Tyneside ), Chris Morgan - Forced to resign after being arrested twice in 2 weeks, for indecent assault on a 15-year old girl, and for suspicion of downloading child ****.

. Tory Party MEP, Tom Spencer - Caught smuggling drugs and **** through customs.

. Tory Party councillor and former Mayor (Wrexham), Michael Morris - Convicted and put on probation for 2 years, for the indecent assault of another man, which was captured on CCTV.

. Tory Party Liaison Manager on the London Assembly, Douglas Campbell, who's job includes running the Tory GLA website - Arrested for allegedly downloading child ****. He is currently suspended while the Police investigation continues.

VIOLENCE

. Tory Party MP (Henley), Boris Johnson - Caught on tape plotting to have a man beaten up by a hired thug. The man was a journalist who had written an unsympathetic piece about Johnson's close friend - Convicted fraudster, Darius Guppy.

. Tory Party Councillor (Folkestone - in Leader, Michael Howard's constituency), Robert Richdale - 41 year history of crime, involving 30 convictions and 5 prison sentences. Richdales enormous criminal record, which covers 10 pages of A4 paper, includes convictions for assault, theft, causing death by dangerous driving, forgery, drugs offences, possession of an offensive weapon, and sex attacks against underage schoolgirls. The Tory Party election campaign literature described Richdale as "a family man" who had a "compassionate personality"

CORRUPTION

. Tory Party councillor (Dudley), Abdul Quadus, who was also chairman of the Dudley Police Committee and a Tory Party spokesman on crime - Convicted and jailed for 6 months for passport fraud and assisting illegal immigration from his native country - Pakistan.

. Former Tory Party Cabinet Minister, Jonathan Aitkin - Convicted and jailed for Perjury and Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice.

. Former Tory Leader of Westminster Council, Dame Shirley Porter - Fled to Israel to evade justice after indulging in fraud, corruption and gerrymandering on a massive scale, and stealing millions of pounds from local taxpayers.

. Tory Party Councillor ( Margate ), Colin Kiddel - Forced to resign after Police investigation into his alleged theft and embezzlement of funds from the local `Dreamland` Amusement Park.

. Former Tory Party Chairman and London Mayoral Candidate, Jeffrey Archer - Convicted and jailed for Perjury and Conspiracy to Pervert the Course of Justice.


Labour Party Criminals

SEX:

. Labour Councillor (Newton Aycliffe) Martin Locklyn - Convicted and jailed for 15 years for sexually abusing 3 14-year-old boys.

. Labour Councillor (North Lincolnshire) David Spooner - Convicted and jailed for 1 year for masturbating in front of 2 young boys.

. Labour Mayor (Westhoughton/Lancashire) Nicholas Green - Convicted and jailed for 10 years for 3 rapes and 13 counts of indecent assault against little girls between the age of 6 and 10. He raped one woman on her wedding day.

. Labour Mayor (Todmordon) John Winstanley - Convicted and jailed for rape and threats to kill. After raping and threatening to kill his terrified victim, Winstanley then ordered the woman to go on all fours before urinating on her.

. Prominent Labour Party activist Mark Tann (who has met Tony & Cherie at Party functions) recently got a 15-year sentence for raping a 4-year old girl on 2 separate occasions.

. Labour's current Parliamentary Candidate (Reading East) Tony Page - Has 2 Convictions for Acts of Gross Indecency` in public toilets.

. Labour Mayor (Burnley) Mark Swainston - Convicted of sex offences in public toilet.

. Entire Labour Party conspired to conceal the activities of Labour Party activist and serial child-molester Mark Trotter, who died from AIDS before he could be convicted.

. Labour Councillor (North Yorkshire) Raymond Coats - Court appearance for indecently assaulting a woman.

. Labour MP (Rhonda Valley) Chris Bryant poses in his pants on the Internet to advertise himself for casual gay sex encounters. Describes himself as "**** as buggery" and says, "I'd love a good long ****".

. Labour Councillor (Manchester), George Harding - Charged with indecent assault on a girl of 12.

. Labour MP Ron Davies was mugged by a Rasta on Clapham Common while cruising for gay sex. He was photographed again by the media recently, engaged in some `man-on-man` action in a field off a motorway. "I was only looking for badgers" he said.

. Labour Councillor (Durham), Derrick Payne - Arrested by Police following a sex attack.

. Labour MP, Joe Ashton - Caught up in a Police raid while frequenting a brothel. Tried to lie his way out of the scandal.

. Labour Councillor (Shropshire), Derek Woodvine - Arrested by Police in anti-**** operation.

. Labour Councillor (Basildon), Tony Wright - Forced to resign after being caught using his council computer to download ****.

. Labour MP (Sheffield), Clive Betts - Suspended from Parliament for 7 days after being caught forging immigration papers to extend the stay of his Brazilian rent-boy gay lover.

. According to media reports, the names of 2 former Labour Cabinet Ministers said to be `Household names` appear on the `Operation Ore ` list of subscribers to hard-core child ****. The same FBI investigation, which led to the arrest of rock star Pete Townshend. So who are they Mr Blair?

VIOLENCE

. Labour Councillor (Kirkby, Merseyside) Charlie Preston - Convicted and jailed for 5 years in 1982 for assault and burglary. Preston broke into the home of a 64 year old man, and beat him up in his bed as he slept before robbing the house. The judge described the case as "As bad a matter of burglary as I can remember" Preston also holds the position on the Council of... `Deputy Cabinet Member for Youth, Citizenship, and Community Safety`.

. Labour Councillor ( Wales ) Denis Jones - Convicted and jailed for unlawful wounding after attacking a neighbour with a sledgehammer.

. Labour Councillor ( Wales ) Ken Brookman - Bit off a mans ear in a dispute over a seat on a train!

. Labour Councillor and former Mayor (Stockton), Keith Dobinson - Investigated by Police for alleged assault on an OAP, which left the old man of 79, hospitalised.

. Labour MP, Tommy Graham - Expelled from Party for his part in driving a person to suicide.

. Labour Councillors (Ilfracombe), Brian Cotton and Tony Cooper - Investigated by Police following serious allegations of Harassment.

CORRUPTION

. Labour Councillor (Sandwell) Mohamed Niwaz convicted of illegally obtaining £20,000 in Housing Grants.

. Labour Councillors in Doncaster - 23 Convicted and 2 jailed for massive fraud, corruption and theft of public funds. Investigation also uncovered massive Labour Party corruption in neighbouring Rotherham .

. Labour Party Councillor ( Blackburn ), Mohammed Hussein - arrested together with 6 Labour activists on suspicion of Election rigging.

. Labour MP Mohammed Sawar ( Britain 's first Asian MP - Glasgow) was the subject of a major News of the World investigation a few years ago into bribery and corruption. Despite this, the massive Asian population in his constituency keeps him safely in his seat.

. Labour MP (Leicester) and former Cabinet Minister, Keith Vaz - Investigated for fraud and corruption before quietly leaving his Europe Minister post with `health problems`. According to his former Secretary, Vaz does absolutely nothing in his constituency other than help local Pakistanis with their Immigration cases (which also helps to explain the `whites a minority` status of Leicester and the safe Labour seat of Mr Vaz)

. Labour Party Euro MP, David Martin is currently being investigated for an alleged expenses fraud involving `hundreds of thousands of pounds`.

. Labour Councillor (Glamorgan), Shawn Stringer - Forced to resign following Police investigation into financial corruption.

OTHER

. Tony Blair recently appointed his close friend/crony and colleague of his wife - Ken Macdonald as the new Director of Public Prosecutions, despite the fact he has a drugs conviction.

. William Straw - Son of Labour Foreign Secretary, and former Home Secretary - Jack Straw, was cautioned by Police for drug dealing, amid a frantic Government attempt to cover up the matter and gag the media as to his identity. Jack Straw also has a brother who was convicted of a sex attack on a schoolgirl. Lovely family!

. Homosexual mass murderer; Dennis Nielsen, who strangled and dismembered 16 young men in the 1980`s, was also a highly active member of Labour fringe groups such as the Anti-Nazi League, and the SWP. That's when he wasn't busy boiling peoples heads in a pot, or masturbating over the corpses of his victims.

Liberal Democrat Criminals

SEX

. Lib-Dem Council candidate (Tower Hamlets), Justin Sillman - Convicted and jailed for 2 years for sexual abuse of young boys.

. Lib-Dem Councillor and Mayoral Candidate ( Sheffield ), Francis Butler- Prosecuted for indecent assault of a young boy.

. Lib-Dem Councillor ( Stockport ) Neil Derbyshire - Sexually assaulted a 16-year old boy in a public toilet. He was caught with a plastic bag containing lubricant, plastic surgical gloves, a condom, and underpants.

. Lib-Dem Councillor ( Preston ), Bill Chadwick - Charged with: Making an indecent photograph of a child, Incitement to rape, Incitement to murder, Incitement to kidnap, and Incitement to torture. Chadwick's gay lover - Alan Valentine, is also a Lib-Dem councillor.


VIOLENCE

. Lib-Dem councillor (North Norfolk), Catherine Wilkins - Also a nurse until she was struck off the nursing register after being found guilty of mistreating patients and abusive behaviour.

. Lib-Dem Parliamentary candidate ( Burnley ), Paul Wright - Charged with drunken assault on his `lodger`. Wright sobbed like a baby during the court case, and the case is to be re-listed and heard again after the jury failed to reach a verdict.

. Lib-Dem Councillor ( Sheffield ) Trevor Morgan - Convicted and jailed for 9 months for unlawful wounding/dangerous driving. After attacking an elderly woman's Golden retriever dog by throwing pepper in its face, he then seriously injured the dog's owner - 57-year old Barbara Johnson, with his car as she tried to stop him escaping.

CORRUPTION

. Lib-Dem Councillor (Peterborough), Michael Jackson - Prosecuted for 21 counts of Theft and False Accounting.

. 3 Lib-Dem Councillors convicted and jailed for Election Fraud in Hackney in 2001

. 12 Lib-Dem officials convicted of Election Fraud in Oldham in 2001.

. Julie Roberts - Convicted of 9 counts of benefit fraud in 2003. 2 weeks after the court case, she was elected as a Lib-Dem councillor in Leicester !

. Lib-Dem councillor (Portsmouth), Ray Race - Convicted and jailed for 4 months for election rigging, along with Lib-Dem colleague Michael Hayward. Race was arrested again in July 2003 for threatening a witness who helped to convict him.

. Lib-Dem councillor (Lambeth), Gabriel Fernandez - Forced to resign after being investigated for benefit fraud.

OTHER

. Former Liberal leader Jeremy Thorpe - Stood trail for conspiring to have his blackmailing gay lover murdered.

The problem is that Europe is now primarily a commercial civilization. (The Dutch, for example, might kick the Muslims out when they interfere with commerce, but that's not the best reason they must go.) But as Christ said, "Man does not live by bread alone". Commercialism does not provide a rational for life. Into this commercial vacuum will come a Nazism-Islam.

Europe needs more Bonhoeffers. And the Bonhoeffers must not fart platitudes about "tolerance" of Islam. "Tolerance" is a form of indifference born of commercialism. Religion (especially the teachings of Christ) must be taken seriously again in Europe if Nazism is not to revive there. God must cease to be dead.

Islam's doppelganger is National Socialism. They are perfect together. I think some in Europe, with a hidden agenda, know that.

Shiva ..you are wasting your time here. The anti-islamic front is so superbly organised and working so supremely well that it can afford to be quite fussy about with whom it has alliances.

The BNP's problem is that it does not have huge money backing it like the democrats/republicans or the tories /labor. Once you have that amount of backing it is very easy to look clean and pure.
We can even accuse some of these parties of favouring slavery at one time or another. But talk about a group who wish to make the ISLAMIC origin of jihadic violence public and you become a pariah.

I find all of this quite funny as if most people had possessed such scruples in WW2 and we failed to support the tyrant Stalin, then nazi germany would have won as Islam is doing now.

yes maintain political correctness at all costs as we muct seem to be as harmless and as toothless as possible so as not to offend the odd muslim or liberal visitor.

The western legacy is doomed as most will be preaching scruples until Sharia law comes.

MsIslamist:

I find all of this quite funny as if most people had possessed such scruples in WW2 and we failed to support the tyrant Stalin, then nazi germany would have won as Islam is doing now.

Alliances of convenience are sometimes necessary, as with Stalin. But the Western democracies' positions were clear enough that during World War II no one thought they were Communist or even pro-Communist because they were allying with Stalin.

By contrast, however, the VB has not sufficiently dissociated itself from positions that are taken by the BNP, the ones I quoted above, to make it clear that their alliance is one of convenience, agreeing on some issues only but continuing to disagree on others.

If they do, I would be happy to note it. In the meantime, your analogy does not hold for that reason.

Also, the democracies, having kept their position distinct from Stalin, were strong enough to resist and ultimately defeat Soviet Communism after defeating Nazism. But if the anti-jihadists ally with race-based groups to defeat Islamization, without making any of those necessary distinctions, will they be strong enough after their victory to defeat a renewed idolatry of race and blood? I am not sure. And they certainly won't if they don't draw the lines that need to be drawn and make distinctions that need to be made, which is what I am doing here.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Friends, for a change I actually disagree with Robert. Now, I'm not British (am Danish) and I know nothing about the BNP. Racism is a dead duck here in Europe, it's absurd and unwanted. If the BNP has a racist agenda, I insist that the British deal with it. It cannot become my responsibility. If I start to assume responsibility by indirect association to groups that I have no connection to, my burden of challenges grows beyond anything remotely possible to deal with.

A problem that some have charged us Europeans with is fascism. We have rejected that label over and over, because it's wrong, and it libel. Throwing that charge at us causes us trouble. And because it is basically false, we can't fix it. How can we remove a problem that isn't there to begin with? Yet, the mere fact that we have nothing to change, nothing to fix, earns us more accusations of tacit approval.

How to show that we are not fascists?

Now, let me first point out that I find the label absolutely unfair and demeaning. It is a charge of the same type as "Class enemy" that is so unfair that defense in itself becomes difficult. I used to be so confused by the charge that I had little idea how to even deal with it.

The best cure is to learn about fascism. Daniel Pipes has pointed out a remarkable new book by Johan Goldberg: "Liberal Fascism" that digs through the historiy of fascism in Europe and America, and points out that fascism is basically a left-wing, "Big state" ideology. That is profound, and an interesting challenge to todays left wing politicians.

As I had expected, it reaffirms what I've claimed over and over, that neither my friends at Gates of Vienna, Vlaams Belang or myself have any sympathy for fascism. Being charged with that is so profoundly unfair it almost deserves a libel suit.

Nazism, of course, is another level of evil, as it adds nasty racism to the mix, something Mussolini and the Italian fascists were not guilty of. This is where things get evil beyond salvation.

But looking at Nazi ideology, one finds it practically empty. There's a lot of mythological mumbo-jumbo, but little in the way of how to actually organize society, except for the traditional "Kill the Jews".

We all know that Jews today are in danger, slowly but effectively, in Israel and elsewhere. It is an important time to publicly stand with the Jewish societies and protect them from intimidation, and to speak up for Israel and its right to defend itself. This is the best defense against any charges of racism or the like - to do the countrary.

I do that. My friends do that. The CounterJihad summit, featuring several prominent Jewish/Israeli speaker, did that. Vlaams Belang does that.

The bottom line: If the BNP, who I know nothing about, has a problem with racism, please take the issue directly to them. It is better than assaulting others for not dealing with it.

We have a job to do that is much more urgent anyway.

Kim Hartveld said:

"Geert Wilders in the Netherlands has managed to mount a strong stance against Islamization while, as far as I know, avoiding dalliance with racial groups"

Exactly. If it were different, there would be no way I would vote for him.

"I still don't see why it can't be done in Britain, Belgium, and elsewhere"

That's because we don't have a Geert Wilders in the UK. There is no one on the horizon that comes close. The working class voter that lives with the problems that Muslims bring - unlike myself - are increasingly supporting the BNP because they are unrepresented by the other parties.

They are ordinary decent people who are not into the BNP because of racism but out of necessity as they see it.

I am watching what is currently going on in the BNP and at the moment it is torn apart by the fight for control. Moderates want Nick griffin to be replaced.

Even though that might happen I still don't see it gaining mass support. It's the BNP and even if Mother Theresa were it's leader it would not be able to shake of the negative image that is automatically applied by the left and the media.

What we need is Winston Churchill.

There is no Nazi-party in all of EUrabia that gets even the minimum 3% (or something like that) of votes to get into a parliament.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at January 20, 2008 8:13 AM


That's true-now. In 1928 the Nazis had less than that. By 1932 they were taking about 40% of the vote and in 1933 Hitler became Chancellor. This occurred because of a world-wide depression. Normally "tolerant" people will become very nasty when their commercial system goes poof. As Nietzsche pointed out a lot of "tolerant" people have full bellies but circumstances can change and all the demons will rise to the surface. That's what happened in the early 30's. Things can change quickly.

We are currently in a world-wide crisis of credit. Some (Prichard, e.g.) warn that we may face a similar condition as the 1930's. I believe there are some in Europe who are using Islam, farting platitudes re "tolerance" and "multiculturalism" but who are dreaming of a New Reich. That's one of the reasons why Europe needs a Bonhoeffer style intolerance of Islam.

Robert, if you have Melanie Philips' email address, ask her for her opinion of this. She has covered the BNP in detail in the past.

Searching her pre-Spectator site, here are the search results for "BNP" in her Diary Archive and Articles sections.

It's time for all you dedicated fair minded and great thinking bloggers to reach a consesus of some sort on these groups and Hakuna Matata - put your behind in your past. :)

Ray, what about the UK Independence Party? I know them slightly and they just might fit the bill.

As for a risk of a fascist/Nazi takeover in Europe, forget it. Won't happen. We would much prefer a complete cultural suicide over seeing that disaster happen again. That cultural suicide, unfortunately, seems well underway. We got a challenge here.

And what we need is relevant information. The Nazi takeover came with a background, of WW1, of fledgling democracies unable to deal with the post-war problems, and from a sincere interest in the totalitarian experiments of Russia and Italy. It was a popular movement, too, supported by the youth and those eager to get rid of the past aristocrats and old culture, yearning for a new golden future with solutions for everything and everyone - thus the term 'totalitarian', coined by Mussolini, to describe a state taking care of all aspects of life, from cradle to grave. Conservatives call that the 'Nanny state' and oppose it.

If you want to know about fascism, and how it influenced also Woodrow Wilson and Franklin D. Roosevelt, I strongly encourage getting your hands on a copy of Liberal Fascism. Even though I'm European myself, the chapters about Wilson and Roosevelt keep me absorbed, too.

Learning about fascism has become much more relevant than I ever thought. I still find it an utterly despicable ideology, as do all of my real friends. Racism, which is the unique contribution of the Nazis, is worse.

I hope I made myself clear. Thank you.

By Robert:

"Also, the democracies, having kept their position distinct from Stalin, were strong enough to resist and ultimately defeat Soviet Communism after defeating Nazism. But if the anti-jihadists ally with race-based groups to defeat Islamization, without making any of those necessary distinctions, will they be strong enough after their victory to defeat a renewed idolatry of race and blood? I am not sure. And they certainly won't if they don't draw the lines that need to be drawn and make distinctions that need to be made, which is what I am doing here."

***

Excellent arguement, Robert, and I have to agree. What saddens me most about the prospect of a coming conflict with Islam in Europe is that the voices of sane moderation might be pushed to the fringes and rendered irrelevant. Violent totalitarian movements generally get their support from a frightened population that has lost faith in the centrist politicians and parties to provide for their most basic societal needs, and that's exactly what we're at the beginning of in Europe. I remember reading Albert Speer's autobiography, and he said that when he was young, German society had polarized so much that an ambitious, talented young man basically had two choices: sign up with the Communists, or the Nazis. Even if that was a self-serving exagerration, I think there was some truth to it. I fear a future Europe where the two main choices are either supporting radical Muslims or supporting a fascist European movement.

To Robert
1. I don't understand why you mix the issue of BNP/race to the Balkans:
"To form one group for indigenous Britons and invite people of other ethnicities to form other similar groups reduces virtually every issue to the one non-negotiable issue of race and ethnicity, discourages cooperation, and thus encourages Balkanization"

The conflicts in the Balkans (just as in the South Asia) are primarily about religion (especially islam) not about race. In my opinion it weakens the anti-jihad cause to present the Balkan wars as an ethnic issue, when the primary cause of these conflicts is islam. Unless of course you refer to the bosnian/albanian muslim alliance with hitler in the period 1941-1945.

2. There is something wrong with these sentance to: "To reduce culture to race on a continent that has seen six million sacrificed to the idolatry of race and blood is not, in my view, the right way to defend European culture"

The correct number is somewhere between 20 and 30 million, as besides the genocide of the Jews the german wars against Poland, Czechoslovakia, Russia and Serbia were also racial wars against people the nazis considered as inferior. My main problem is though that you confuse a german/aryan cause with European culture and spread the german crime of genocide on other European nations. That's more or less like blaming the Chinese og Hindus for Pearl Harbor simply because they are Asians just like the Japanese. I neither support or oppose the BNP in anyway, but I don't see why you refer to german crimes when you discuss british or flamish parties.

"Alliances of convenience ............................................but continuing to disagree on others."

There was NO choice in WW2 as without the USA GB had NO chance of winning alone and the USSR was welcomed with guarded but essentially open arms.
At no time did Stalin make any policy changes as a result of the alliance, he continued to massascre, deport and enslave without cessation.
The allies wer quite aware of this and there was quite alot of criticism but it had no effect upon aid.The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I see the current situation as just as serious as it was then(although not so obvious I agree). I am not arguing about the past or present attitudes of the BNP and frankly I do not care although I take your point about them.

I realise that you have to seem squeaky clean here so as not to attract undue criticism/attention. But it is this overdependence upon what the left/islamic coalition might think that is destroying us.

If we have to seem totally useless and harmless then we will be useless and harmless.

Your role is education and attempting to create public awareness of the source of islamic violence
and seeing as I own almost all of your books (and use tham as Xmas presents) I say no more here.

But sooner or later there is going to have to be organised public resistance to the inroads of islam as clearly our leaders will not do this.
That may well be the time when the BNP may be a useful ally. I am a political realist and we have a war to win IMHO.

IMO the BNP is only scapegoated because it does not have multinational funding and is a grass roots organisation who threaten the big two parties. Pauline Hanson was destroyed here by a coalition of the major parties, the media, the multinationals, the multicultural groups and the trade unions. Why? Because she appealed to the majority of Ausralians and would have seriously undermined the hold of the two main parties here.
The campaign started as a smear campaign which attracted extreme right fanatics and then her party selfdestructed as the lunatics outnumbered the staff. But that was not enough as they had to frame her wuith charges and imprison here to let hert know that Autralia's leader's were displeased. A most shameful episode in our history. Perhaps the BNP is also under such pressure.

"I fear a future Europe where the two main choices are either supporting radical Muslims or supporting a fascist European movement"

So then, which one would you support?

sheik yer'mami-

I don't have any expertise in economics and defer to those who have such knowledge. But it is clear that after WW2 the US deliberately became the dumping place for goods and services in the world in order to stoke the world economy. For that reason we tended to dominate the commercial system. But that has changed. The world economy is less in our control and merely opening up our markets will not work anymore. In fact, we can no longer afford to do that. (That's why President Bush recently said other nations (China,e.g.) have to develop[pe "domestic markets" and stop relying on the US market with exports.

Prichard (and a lady who was associated with Milton Friedman) have both recently warned that all the conditions for a world-wide depression are in place. They don't seem to think it can be controlled by our Fed-LOL. If that happens, as Betty Davis would say, "hold unto your hats, we are in for a bumpy ride". Things could get 30's style ugly fast.

Robert said, This angry, ugly rift between people I love and respect has disheartened me greatly.

I know quite a bit about that--on a personal level.

I've been called stupid and naive by people whom I thought I knew and who I thought were my allies. I've also been told that I'm not really doing anything valuable because I don't agree with aligning with certain people and parties.

The rift is ugly, all right. I almost quit blogging over it.

Lord knows that I'm making no money as a participant in this battle to which I'm enjoined. In fact, the converse is true. Not that I'm whining about that or criticizing any who are able to make money in their criticism of Islam; I'm just making the statement.

I posted a personal essay on the topic, and I rarely post that type of personal essay.

It's also worth remembering that this is not an alliance coupling the individual parties on all subjects. It's one common project, not a mutual endorsement of all views of the participating parties.

Better this way, I'd say.

An interesting aside is that Charles Johnson, who's so deeply worried about fascist resurgency, has not bothered defining what 'fascism' actually means. He uses it as a slur, much like Stalin did, and it works primarily against those who have no idea what it is but get scared silly by the charge.

A little aside:
'Totalitarian', 'Authoritarian' and 'Brutalistic' are various terms associated with fascism. The first is where it starts, that the state assumes total responsibility for the life and well-being of its citizens.

That leads easily to an authoritarian development, where citizens cease to act in a responsible manner in their lives, as everything is decided by the state anyway, and one needs just to follow the 'Great Leader' to be OK.

Who, in turn, easily goes down the path of brutalism, in particular if it turns out that he's not qualified to fulfill the expectations laid upon him, but wishes to maintain his authority over matters anyway. This situation requires silencing of dissent and criticism, by any means available.

The Soviet Union is a perfect example of how that worked, including Stalin using the term 'fascist' against any and all of his opponents, thus implicitly framing them for complicity to the horrors of WW2.

Fascism sucks. Nazism, unfortunately, was worse. The bright side is that the risk of a resurgent fascist Europe is nil. Fascism had its heyday from 1910-1935 and is utterly discredited, except perhaps in the twisted mind of Øivind Strømmen and other alarmists who have a fickle grasp of history.

This does present Europeans (especially white Europeans) who oppose Islam in Europe with difficult and unpalatable choices: Unaffiliate with every party and just watch it all go down the drain; be marginalized and irrelevant in the main political parties; support racist parties and hope they improve.

It brings to mind the choices in Europe before WWII between supporting the Soviets or Nazis, or trying to do neither like Churchill did and of course in the end, his was the victorious and honorable road. That way might appear again if, as in Churchill's day, the paradigm shifts from opposing the Communists to fighting for your life. That was a bad time, but it looks more and more like that the path for Europe. In Churchill's day, before the war began, the principal political issue was how to oppose the Nazis without supporting Communists. Once the issue became life or death, being anti-Nazi no longer meant you were pro-Communist. Nazi aggression left no space for varying ideologies. Even Churchill, who hated Communism and Stalin, had no problem supporting the Soviets, after the Germans attacked them.

Perhaps, once Europe reaches a similar stage, where European culture might face extinction, or rather submersion, in the face of Islam, where the choices for everyone, the choice many of us here and now see so clearly, it won't require joining BNP or VB to oppose Islam.

"Even Churchill, who hated Communism and Stalin, had no problem supporting the Soviets, after the Germans attacked them". Seymour Paine

You bet. In fact, Churchill said if Hitler marched into hell that he would have to find some nice things to say about the devil. Churchill was a realist, a very sane fellow.

I am not a BNP member or voter, but this debate did send me to their website to get it from the horses mouth.

I found the following passage quite interesting regarding their position, & it does show the double standard that the UK's ruling liberal elite in collaboration with the MSM have bought about in Great Britain:


""The enemies of British Nationalism continue to parrot the claim that the BNP is a “racist party.” This claim is most often repeated because the BNP unashamedly addresses itself to the issues and concerns of the indigenous British population, and because it seeks to ensure that British people remain the majority population in this country. Opponents point to the fact that the BNP has an all-white membership, and that we address issues concerning white people.

If the BNP is racist for holding this position, then, we would suggest, all of the following organisations - some of them state funded - are also “racist” because they too address themselves exclusively to the issues and concerns of their respective communities:

1. Watford Asian Community care

2. Watford African Caribbean Association

3. National Black Police Association

4. Metropolitan Black Police Association

5. Black Londoners Forum

6. Black Information Link (BLINK)

7. Operation Black Vote

8. Federation of Black Housing Organisations (FBHO)

9. Black Training Enterprise Group

10. Southwark Black Heritage Organisation

11. The Action Group for Irish Youth

12. Asians In Media (AIM)

13. Barfi Culture (Asians)

14. Black Britain

15. Black Enterprise

16. Black net Community

17. The Black Presence In Britain

18. Black Search

19. Black UK Online

20. Board Of Deputies of British Jews

21. Chinatown Online

22. Clickwalla (Asian)

23. Dimsum (Chinese)

24. Doncaster Chinese

25. CEMVO

26. Every Generation (Black)

27. Jewish.Co.UK

28. Jewish Telegraph

29. MMLondon (Asian)

30. Red Hot Curry (Asian)

31. National Association of Nigerian Communities - UK (NANC)

32. Barnsley Black and Ethic Minority Initiative

Have you noticed how the media NEVER calls any of these organisations “racist” even though they are openly organised along ethnic lines and stand for the rights of their respective communities?

It seems as if every group has the right to have an organisation speaking up for its rights - EXCEPT the indigenous British people.

In reality, none of these organisations are “racist” — each and every community has the inalienable right to look after its own interests.

This includes the indigenous British folk, and the BNP is proud to be the party which stands up for the rights our folk and country, in exactly the same way that all of the above organisations stand up for their folk.""


Its a convincing argument, one that cannot be so easily dismissed as the mere rantings of racists. The list above shows the double standard (some State funded) that the BNP is feeding on, & to be frank if it were not for their economic policies I may consider voting for them in the absense of an anti EU Tory candidate.

The rise of the BNP is & will be New Labours enduring legacy to British politics, for better or for worse.

It's important to note that traditionally, Europe has been less of a cultural melting pot than the USA.

Norway was populated by Norweigans, Denmark by Danes, England by the English etc. Yes, of course there was immigration and emmigration but nothing like what has happened over the past 30 years.

This had been done within living memory for many in Europe. They can see the demographic destruction of their country and they don't like it.

Europe being more densely populated than the USA magnifies this issue.

This is a problem that concerns many ordinary people who have no time for anything remotely fascist, but equally, resent being labelled a racist merely because they can see the effects of immigration on their neighbourhoods.

There's a newly formed party called The Secular Party of Australia, that wants to keep religion out of public life.

I’ve been hanging out with a Marin-County hippie for the last two days. A certified clay-pot maker who sells her wares at festivals and walks around rain forests. A very interesting person who is sick and tired of Islam.

Islam will be confronted when the money runs out. Liberal democracies simply cannot exist for a long period of time as the electorate will eventually vote itself benefits that the state cannot afford. I believe that we’re in the last part of a democratic cycle. See $70 trillion in unfunded accrual accounting liabilities and the platforms of the Presidential candidates. MBIA is losing it’s credit rating because the reality is setting in that local governments are also in trouble.

200,000 taxpaying Brits emigrate each year, being replaced with 500,000 needy immigrants.

When the money runs out, things could very easily become violent. See Paris. If order breaks down, populations will demand security. Islam’s strategic error is arrogance and, when the time comes, those practicing the Religion of Peace will find themselves on airplanes, if they are lucky.

Like it or not, a BNP-style agenda is a logical follow-on to the failure of multiculturalism.

So the British should just sit back and wait for a savior to arrive. What to do in the meantime? Read blogger Lionheart's post here and how he describes life in the community of Luton where Pakistani muslims have taken over his community.

http://lionheartuk.blogspot.com/2007/08/luton-dunstable-reality-check.html

The local police are either too scared themselves or beholden to political commands towards "community cohesion" and refuse to identify the problem. These same Pakistani muslims throw bricks thru windows of the non-muslims to harass them and get them to move out of the neighborhood. The local paper will not even describe the incidents accurately. "Attacks" they are called, by "thugs". No reference to race, or ethnicity, or any point of commonality, except the PC, generic "thugs". The strategy is working to chase the non-muslims out.

British communities are being overrun and the suggestion is they sit back and wait. wait. wait.

The BNP seems to be attracting those willing to fight the common enemy. These people reject white supremacism, reject anti-semitism and nazism. They join for a sole purpose. Protect their homeland from the slow jihad in their midst. If they are white, and British, they are labeled white-supremacist.

I say let them meet and gather so a network can develop. Let them know there is an organization that represents their view on this ONE fundamental issue. Soon enough, by natural forces, those who renounce Griffin and his traditionalists views will break away to form anew, or take over the party. Though, I agree that not even another Mother Teresa can erase the neo-nazi imprint. But for now, there is no other option. Yes, a leader should arise. What to do in the meantime? People on the street are frustrated. They cannot be as patient as we would like and when they refuse to be patient, they are labelled as racist hatemongers for joining the only insitution representing their views against the Islamists in their midst.

And in case someone would like to interpret this comment as "full throttle support for the BNP". It is not. I reject the detestable principles the traditional BNP stands for. There are moderates in the party trying to separate themselves. It is the moderates whom I proudly support and encourage. If their only option is the meet and gather within the current structure, while unfortunate, it is fully understandable.

Putting this whole "fascism", white supremacist, racist, BNP, VB etc. aside, how about formulating a "winning strategy" based on the reality "on the ground"?
It's easy to wish muslims formulate a "new Islam" that is contrary to centuries of muslim teachings, and wishing it will win-out over "old Islam", but what is the likelyhood? And what is the likelyhood it will happen in our lifetime?
It's easy to want to steer clear of "unsavory" elements in the fight against islamisation, but what is the likelyhood that approach will prove victorious? What is the likelyhood it will prove victorious before Europe goes "Balkan"?
It's easy to be against (mass)deportations of muslims(and yes, this is mostly people of non-white ancestry. Thus it would be racist, eventhough it's based on religion), but what's the alternative? To continue living with the threat of muslim-terrorism and the continuing threat of islamisation?

On the internet it's easy to pass judgement on various issues. On the internet it's easy to claim the moral high-ground. On the internet it's much MUCH easier to complain than it is to formulate a viable strategy or to actively try and effect change.
Let's forget about passing judgement, about claiming the high-ground, about complaining and instead look at the situation on the ground, with all the filth that's covering it, and let's see you formulate a viable strategy for Europe. A strategy that has a chance of working "on the ground", and not some fantasy-scenario where the EU is dismantled, or where the majority of Europes politicians suddenly realize the threat Islam poses. Personally I can't think of a strategy where we don't atleast get our hands dirty, but I'd love to see your REALISTIC proposal.
(BTW, this isn't aimed at Robert, but everyone who don't want to get their hands dirty, though I'd love a reply from Robert)

Ayaan Ali Hirsi said in an interview with a Canucki TV jock:

"We're all racist"- and taken in context, I think we can all agree.
We are battling an ideology in the guise of religion which is intolerable because it doesn't tolerate us. The advances of this cult must be stopped and reversed. Islam is and has been fighting us since its inception 1400 years ago, this is the final onslaught.

As I mentioned above, there is a racial aspect to this, undeniably, because EUrabia is very close to Africa. In Africa there are few places left where whites dare, in most places they have been driven out without compensation. The last few farmers in Zimbabwe are now being driven of the land and nobody wants to know, why is that?

If we are to be all tolerant and accepting of large numbers of Africans, shouldn't there be at least some kind of reciprocal agreements with those nations that sent us their poor and huddled masses?

It brings to mind the choices in Europe before WWII between supporting the Soviets or Nazis, or trying to do neither like Churchill did and of course in the end, his was the victorious and honorable road.
- from posting

And, as was pointed out later, Churchill had to make a choice between survival for his people and keeping his hands clean and he chose the former. The famine in Ukraine and all the rest didn't matter. When push came to shove, we had to hold our collective noses and get in the trenches with Stalin against Hitler.
Remember also that Churchill wasn't avoiding dealing with Russia. Stalin had signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler and deliberately kept his country out of the war. It was only after HITLER broke the pact that Stalin joined the cause.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. We have a common enemy. Do we fight amongst ourselves or do we join forces to defeat those who would kill us? Our enemy won't care that we weren't racist. Our moral purity won't mean a thing to them. They won't distinguish between the BNP and the rest of non-Muslim Britain.
We shall be judged by the company we keep. Fair enough. But won't we stand a better chance of changing the views of the BNP by associating with them instead of ignoring them? If it's good enough for China (don't our leaders tell us we can't help others change without getting in there first?) why not for the BNP? Can it be said that the BNP is equivalent to the KKK in America?

I honestly think that people who think racism is dead in Europe are fooling themselves. You often hear it said that there is no prejudice in Italy (where I live), but, although it may be relatively more tolerant than other countries, racism and ethnocentrism is by no means a thing of the past. In fact, I think the obvious failures of multiculturalism and relativism are feeding a resurgence.
We simply don't know what Europe would look like if the bottom just dropped out of the economy, say, after a few European 9/11s. I tend to think there would be more than just Muslim youths burning things in the streets.
Anti-jihad has to stand up for freedom, human rights and the rule of law and break with race- and ethnicity-centered approaches. Pragmatic Yalta-style compromises undercut the culture we say we want to promote.
And by the way, let's not forget the Russocentric element of Soviet communism in the tally of victims of European racial supremacism.

Having denounced fascism sufficiently above, I think I'll not be assaulted for adding the following useful fact:

Racism is not inherent to fascism.

Really, it isn't. Fascist Italy, for one, had no anti-Semitic laws until Hitler forced Mussolini to adopt them in 1938, after 18 years of fascist rule. Jews were safe in Italy right up to the German takeover in 1943. Other fascist countries, like Spain, never implemented such laws.

Fascism is based on the idea of the total state, no dissent even necessary, and was widely popular during the 20's, in particular in intellectual circles. Conservatives resented the idea, sticking to their ideals of private property, Christian values and straight-out capitalism.

Fascists ventured to reject all that 'traditionalist garbage' and replace religion with the state, replace individualism with the 'common good' and replace class divides with an equal role in the all-mighty State.

Stalin implemented this system, too, getting rid of 'reactionary' elements such as the productive Kulaks and others who knew their trade and could make a living independently of the supposedly 'indispensable' state.

One of the weird aspects of fascism is the need for a continous sense of urgency and crisis to make the citizens let go of their authority and property 'for the common good', and to motivate them for extra efforts and sacrifices for the state. This permanent state of crisis can be difficult to maintain, but entering a more or less relevant war is a miracle tool for this. Woodrow Wilson entered WW1 in a pattern matching this, and implemented fascist measures under the name of 'Progressivism' to motivate the Americans to make the relevant sacrifices for the war effort in Europe.

A corrolary is that fascism will, in the absense of a crisis, quite likely fall apart, especially if the constitutional defences against fascist measures are strong, as they are in the US.

Now I'll probably be blasted for repetitiveness. But reading Liberal Fascism has been an amazing eye-opener for figuring out what fascism really is, and what exactly makes it bad.

It shows why it fascinated an entire generation of European and American intellectuals, and why we have to really careful when left-wingers seek to use similar approaches today. Telling them something like: "Yes, I've heard about that idea before. The fascists tried that and it didn't work very well." ought to be a killer line.

Now, anyone still thinks that history is dull or irrelevant..?

Europe is going under, and faster, too, each day, it seems. With a small exception here and there, almost all of the European governments involved are complicit in the transformation of Europe into Eurabia and/or are so consumed by political correctness and multiculturalism, not to mention not a little self-hatred, that they are unwilling to act to save their indigenous populations and, in fact, are accelerating the slide in virtually every way they can. All of the major and most of the minor political parties and many of the European people themselves are complicit as well; paralyzed by some sort of strange fin de siècle death wish. Only small fringe parties like Vlaams Belang and the BNP are willing, each for their own reasons, which may not be very savory or particularly democratic, to fight the Islamization of Europe.

So, do we “occupy the moral high ground” and not work—somehow—with or through the only organizations—savory or not—that are starting to fight Islamization and the transformation to Eurabia and have at least some popular support and organization or, do we keep our hands clean, sit back, impotent but pure in heart and deed, and watch the calamity occur?

Personally I would rather get my hands dirty but win, than to sit on my horse in magnificent, snow-white splendor, pennants waving in the breeze, above the fray, watching as all of the people my ancestors came from are forcibly converted, killed or transformed into dhimmis and all the heritage of my culture—its art, music, religion, philosophy, history and the monuments and landscape itself, so pregnant with thousands of years of history, are hacked to pieces and discarded by the Jihad, declared Jahilliya or Ignorance and thus to be destroyed and forgotten, because that it what is going to happen if we don’t act.

You may propose that we should change the existing governments and ruling parties somehow but, how to do this when the infection is so broad and deep? Who do we vote in? How to change--before it is too late-- a whole carefully constructed framework of laws that is increasingly weighing down on and constricting the movement and options of every Infidel in Europe? Even now, as we all see, freedom of speech itself is starting to be strapped into a straightjacket and soon in Europe, if we don’t act, “the Resistance” will be back to graffiti and hand printed notes passed on from person to person and if it comes to this, the Dark Ages will have come again to Europe and they may last as long or longer than they did last time.

"I honestly think that people who think racism is dead in Europe are fooling themselves."

That'd be me, it seems...

I keep pointing out that Islam, literally applied, is the only real problem. Race is irrelevant.

We need to keep pointing that out, for we're often being assulted by people who are unable to distinguish between race and religion. That's a continous effort, but if we don't lift that burden, less educated and more vulgar types will try to frame it as a race problem - which it isn't - and then we have no end of trouble.

A main with the CounterJihad effort is to repeat and reassert this.

"how about formulating a "winning strategy" based on the reality "on the ground"?"

Conversion to Christianity...

Really. I hear rumours that in Turkey and Iran, Christianity is making significant inroads on the ground, because Islam is being exposed as reactionary and backwards, bad for women etc. I just heard - again, this is difficult to substantiate - that Russia has a whopping 2 million converts from Islam to Orthodox Christianity. They have a field day with that because Communism reduced the identification with religion, and now a lot of people registered in census as Muslims are looking at the resurgent Orthodox Church and desire to join the 'party'.

Defending our right to missionarise is a very important and oft-overlooked point to this. Christianity has traditionally been strong at the word of mouth level, and still is, if we can protect our freedom to spread the word.

Making aid to Muslim countries contingent on permission to also preach Christianity might be extremely useful.

Dammit, now is not the time to be so picky about who may help us save our civilization; however, I understand the need for the Jihad Watch managers have to protect their image.

There have been many comparisons between the current war and World War Two; here is another. We chose to support the Soviets against Hitler. Stalin was no different from Hitler, but he got our support as long as Hitler was a threat.

Beyond what I just wrote, I cannot add much to what GaryK, PMK and others have posted.

It's all a moot point anyway.

Britain is over. The rest of Europe it trying hard to catch up.

Emigrate while you can. Anarchy is just over the horizon.

"This approach hamstrings and marginalizes the anti-jihad movement. Many people who oppose the Islamization of Europe will never join with a race-based party to do so."

This also applies to the United States, for two reasons:

1. The psychological/ideological terrain created by nearly half a century of intense government, corporate and academic anti-racism indoctrination. See Shelby Steele's book "White Guilt" for a discussion of this.

2. The invalidity of the concept of biological (i.e., racial or ethnic) determinism in the first place. Imagine a presidential race between a black, Somali woman who grew up in a Muslim country and a white, Anglo-Irish man who grew up in America. Who would you vote for -- Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Ted Kennedy?

"What we need is Winston Churchill." - Ray Boyd.

Yes Ray, but what if he doesn't show up? What then?

Or what if he does show up, do you think that the prevailing order will recognize a superior intellectual brilliance and move aside....no, of course not, they will recognize a mortal threat to their hegemonic aspirations, and so move heaven and earth to destroy him. Can you see a Gordon Brown, a Jack Straw, a Hazel Blears, or even a David Cameron going peacefully into the side lines. No, they will unleash their pet pit bulls in the media, all the aspiring Stalinists of the BBC, the Trotsky's of The Guardian, and other assorted sophists to smear and sneer the man into the demonic wilderness, just as they are doing to Gert Wilders.

The task ahead is so monumental that it will take more than one man to restore sanity, and heal the moral vacuum that has beset Western society...Hercules himself would be hard pressed for such a task.

6 plus years since 9/11, and still we sit arguing the niceties of our possible actions in response to our mortal enemy's incursions. Just how many acts of barbarity is it going to take, how many innocents slaughtered to galvanize us to action?
Ethical and moral purity will be the death of us; we are indeed, lost in a sea of moral confusion.
No, the BNP may not be your preferred partners in this conflict, but I suggest you seek one out and soon, for our enemy grows bolder by the day, and we sink further into acrimonious bickering with each passing hour. No wonder they see us as weak and ripe for the picking...we are.

I repeat a question I asked of this site over a year ago, (which no one answered). I make no apologies for the source, nor do I seek any consensus upon the man's guilt or innocence as to the crimes he is accused of. Let the question stand solely upon its own merit...

The question posed by Slobodan Milosovic to the court at his trial in the Hague after the court's refusal to allow photographs of the conflict into evidence in his defense...."You people (referring to the European elites), have allowed large numbers of these people, (intimating the Bosnian Mujahadeen shown in the photographs), into your communities. When these photographs depict the severed heads of your own citizens, what will you say, what will you do?"

Not a pleasant question I agree, but one which untold numbers seek to ignore in the forlorn hope that if we bury our heads, maybe the nightmare will simply go away. In the intervening time since Milosovic first asked that question, and the time I, and others posed it here, events have shown that our enemies are serious in their intent, while we are not. So what's it to be, we salve our moral virtue and let our societies be over run, 'cause we can always go to our graves with our precious virtue intact. Or do we put aside our differences, our fears, our confusion, and form a united front.

Of course I realize that there are those who pooh, pooh the idea of a conflict such as Bosnia, played out across the European continent, but the rational among us know that the likelihood of such draws ever closer.

Sorry Robert, while I have a great respect and admiration for your erudition, and I truly value your contributions to our debates, I think in the long term your position is untenable. Resistance to these incursions into our societies, will not spring up whole and solid overnight. Our elites have demonstrated their lack of seriousness and insight into these pressing issues of our time, so we must count them out. If we leave it to the random outcome of externally enforced events, we will leave ourselves open to the very forces which your position fears most.

I would also point out, that while yes, the origins of the BNP were in quasi fascist groups of dispossessed, and alienated unemployed thugs. The current trend is away from such behaviors. But the real question is, just how true to the narrative painted for us by a media which has been caught out repeatedly lying to the general public on virtually any range of issues, is the actual truth of just what the BNP stands for. Now I am not saying they are choir boys, but just how many incidences of thuggish behavior on the part of BNP members have there actually been of late. Not too many, for surely we would have heard loud and clear form the sanctimonious guardians of our moral imperfections. Neither am I saying that the BNP is our only salvation. But the argument that the BNP are a bunch of Nazis just waiting their chances is as bogus as the claim that Ahmadinejad is a misunderstood choir boy seeking nothing but the brotherhood of man, and wants nothing more than to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony.

If we are looking for moral purity of the highest order before committing ourselves to dirtying our hands, then maybe we are awaiting the second coming, in which case, should even a hint of such a one be seen upon the horizon, then watch out in the following days for focus groups and media types scouring the forests of the world for suitable timber.

Pelayo-- it's principles, not image. We're not looking to end the threat of one form of injustice (jihad and its goal of imposing sharia law) only to have it replaced with another.

When viable alternatives are not ready available, one can overlook some imperfections.

Leadership, even tainted leadership, is far better than outright betrayal -- which is what our current politicians practice.

...

Today, I think I'd take chemotherapy ... instead of wishing for a cure for cancer.

MarisolJW ...Well said.

""What we need is Winston Churchill." - Ray Boyd."

"Yes Ray, but what if he doesn't show up? What then?"

We have our Churchills. They are named, in no particular order, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Serge Trifkovic, Andrew Bostom, Bat Ye'or, David Littman, Flemming Rose, Sam Solomon etc.

These are the people who have read the relevant books in time, have spoken out against the looming danger for years, and who - just like Churchill - are largely being ignored by the ruling elites. Who seem to be more interested in appeasement and reelection than in defending our liberties.

Fortunately, speaking out against the danger, out of compassion, not hate, accumulates a significant amount of 'moral high ground' when the conflict deepens, which it most certainly will in the coming years. Knowing who can be relied in for real knowledge and analysis will be increasingly important over the coming years.

Marisol, OK principles; however, you may take the high road if you dare. The high road is easy, but where will the help come from? Hillary Clinton, Obama? The Republican Party? McCain?

I'll endorse what LoneRange wrote - Hiyo Silver, away!

Posted by: MisIslamist

Shiva ..you are wasting your time here. The anti-islamic front is so superbly organised and working so supremely well that it can afford to be quite fussy about with whom it has alliances.

superbly organised, PLEASE EXPLAIN

If you are being sarcastic, ok I let it pass, but if not, then I would like to point out that the anti-islamic front is a shambles

To prove my point we just have to look back at the Brussel 9/11 Demo where no more than a handful of anti-islamic bothered to turn up. Yet the leader of VB where out in front

We did not see any of the big name bloggers, yet they managed to organize a meeting several weeks
after the demo in Brussels, wining and dining, a stark contrast to a few weeks before where the frontliners where getting their balls crushed.

And the Charles of the court of the Green Lizards was absent from both events

This is my opinion of LGF….and some (hell, many) may disagree.

Charles was right about the VB and everyone knows some of the issues with the BNP. He is also right that various neo-Nazi groups could jump on board the anti-jihad movement and really push it in the wrong direction. We need alliances, like Indian Hindus for example, that cannot occur if people like the BNP ran things.

I however, have several problems with Charles and his "plan" for things. He fails on several points:

(1) He still supports the Iraq adventure. This proves that he still does not understand the enemy. Democracy in Iraq, without a western style bill of rights, is a defeat. A constitution backed by Islam, will produce a state that will be an enemy of the United States. When you explain this, the response you get is: it is a democracy and who are we to choose their fate. Everyday he puts up stories to put a positive spin on Iraq. This is not helpful for the anti-jihad cause. It misleads people into thinking that Islam is not that bad after all. The hardcore lizards will say: "Look, Democracy is flowering in this trouble land!". Yet people who read this site (www.jihadwatch.org) everyday and who have made an attempt to understand what Jihad and Islam is about, CANNOT come to that conclusion. Iraq is a failure, for the same reason Palestine is a failure...Islam.


(2) He has let his anti-jihad instincts be clouded by political ideology. I have no trouble with someone voting for the GOP (Because I am going to vote for the GOP in this coming election), but that does not mean I should always put a "happy face" on everything the GOP does. The GOP is in real trouble. It needs a slap in the face, not excuses. Everything is not the liberals fault. Let me give you a good example: Nancy Pelosi went to Syria and wore a scarf over her head. Charles Johnson and the LGF folks went nuts (which they should), but when Laura Bush did the same thing in the UAE, little is said. A true anti-jihadist would have had a meltdown over this also.

(3) Charles Johnson has no anti-jihad grand strategy. He acts like the Islamic invasion of Europe is not as important as our Iraq adventure. He views each event as a collection of individual actions. A true anti-jihadist views it as a coordinated offensive. The attacks of 9-11 are related to a jihadist attack on some Russian outpost in Chechnya, or some Somali jihadist taking out a company of Ethiopians. They all serve a central purpose: to advance Islam. They are all funded by a general war account gained from the Arabian oil trade. Any grand strategy would take this all into account.


I think LGF is a great site for information. In this case LGF is right and he is good at exposing the mainstream media for the frauds they are, however, don't expect to learn anything about jihad, Islam, or how we will win this war. He has tied himself to a strategy that will fail also. I don’t want racist getting involved in the anti-jihad movement, but I sometimes wonder if the “lizard army” will be of any help either.

Pelayo-- true, several people have asked in this thread, if we reject the BNP and their ilk, to whom shall we go?

Ourselves. I think what we offer at Jihad Watch is another way. And if we align ourselves with people opposed to the principles Robert has stated (and the Vlaams Belang has clarified their stance significantly there by allying with the BNP), we never give ourselves a chance to get the ball rolling as a separate and more desirable alternative.

Persistence is job #1, both in sticking to our guns as far as principles are concerned, and in continuing to strive to change individual minds in every area of society and government. That's what a "grassroots" movement does.

For the record, it was the intention that the meeting should conincide with the demos (there were two). But it turned out to be impossible logistically - getting rooms, speakers etc - on that date, and a different one had to be selected.

Friends of mine were there. Some were arrested, some were not.

Charles, of course, can only cry out in envy over something important taking place not under his direction, and subsequently purge from his blog Fjordman and others who were there.

Shiva, if you really want to give a negative impression of your fellow anti-Jihad activists, I suggest you get the details right. They really did make an effort to make a big splash on Sept. 11th placing the conferene there, but it was not humanely possible.

greatcometof1577...your post is untrue...no one is harder on President Bush and his stance on Islam..then Charles and LGF...you must be reading the comments.

What is the alternative for or European cousins? Can the British rely on the Labour Party or Conservatives? If people latch onto Vlaams Belang or the British National Party, it will be out of frustration with the impotent "mainstream parties." Extreme situations require extreme solutions.

Barry Goldwater:

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"

greatcometof1577...your post is untrue...no one is harder on President Bush and his stance on Islam..then Charles and LGF...you must not be reading the comments.

The ultimate determinant in the struggle now going on for the world will not be bombs and rockets but a test of wills and ideas-a trial of spiritual resolve: the values we hold, the beliefs we cherish and the ideals to which we are dedicated.
Ronald Reagan, 40th president of US (1911 - 2004)

That says it all.

Pelayo, it's worth remembering that Vlaams Belang is a mainstream party already, having an electorate of well over a million Belgians. They have three members of the European Parliament whereas my on Dansk Folkeparti (Danish Peoples Party) has only one.

The challenge related to VB, and the reason it gets labeled 'extremist' by its socialist opponents, is that it is a separatist party. It has as its main purpose the dissolution of Belgium into Flanders and Wallonia. The anti-Jihad effort is somewhat of a side effect, in that the party stands for a conservative free-market philosophy which naturally leads them to reject Islam as a political force.

One should be really careful accepting slurs thrown around by their opponents. It is (sorry for the analogy) a bit similar to taking the mock trials of Stalin for representing the truth.

storagemanager

He is hard on Bush for his strategy in Palestine, but not for his strategy in Iraq.

I have not a clue how somebody could be for the "Iraq plan" and yet could not be for the "Palestine plan" as he is.

They are the same stupid plan...

Clarification to my 12:24 post:

'Being there' refers to the CounterJihad summit, not the demonstrations.

And if we align ourselves with people opposed to the principles Robert has stated (and the Vlaams Belang has clarified their stance significantly there by allying with the BNP), we never give ourselves a chance to get the ball rolling as a separate and more desirable alternative.


Marisol,

At some point we have to accept that we ourselves are not sufficient. We need help. We can live to see our principles and Western civilization survive or we can die for them.
History is written by the victors. Our principles and our beliefs in the good of humanity will be lost in our defeat.
Must everyone be an angel before we side with them? There aren't enough angels in the universe.

Robert,

Thank you for the moral clarity. Had you taken the other side on this issue, you would've lost many, many people of good will.

Validating one sociological evil in order to fight another would be a moral and tactical error of the gravest consequence for the anti-Jihad. Both you and Charles Johnson are taking a lot of short-term flak for your long-term vision.

greatcometof1577...Because we undertand that if we leave Iraq...Iran will march all the way to Mecca...and Persia will be reborn..you want that?

Anyone seeking to join a non-racist party in the UK should apply to the UK Independence Party whose guiding philosophy is based upon individual liberties and thus opposed to the implementation of Sharia Law in Britain.

Marisol, Robert Spencer and everybody at Jihad Watch do great work, but how many times does the JW telephone ring with a call from the Whitehouse? Have any of you been escorted through the back door for private consultations with Mr Bush or Her Highness Ms Rice? When the next President calls, then you have made giant leap. If Robert and others have been consulted, then I must plead ignorance.

HenriK, please excuse an insulated American for not grasping European ploitics.

My point about referring to the political choices facing Europe prior to WWII, whether to oppose Nazism and thereby ally with Communism or sit on the sidelines, all faded when they were all faced with life and death choices. Remember the Oxford students who in the early 1930s declared they would not fight (Germany) for King and Country; well, they did end up fighting and fighting rather well. I'm sure that present day Britain, with its cowardly bowing and scrapping before Moslems, looks a lot like England in the 1930s. In that time, the peace movement was so strong the government, knowing it needed to rearm and fast, simply couldn't, until really it was too late.

Obviously no one knows if England and Europe will find its courage before it's too late. We tend to view them all as cowards and fools (and they are for the most part), but in WWII many acquitted themselves very well and bravely.

My point is that the choice between BNP/VB and Tories or other mainstream parties, while difficult now, might end up not meaning much in the near future.

Posted by: Henrik

'Being there' refers to the CounterJihad summit, not the demonstrations.

Yet the people who Robert and Charles are condemning where there

Rather than comment on the statements above, I want to simply state a few things.

-- Attention on the issue of the Islamization of Europe is a good thing and attacking whomever is drawing that attention is mistaken. Many people in the West don't even understand that the problem exists.

-- Rhetoric that liberally uses the terms "nazi", "fascist", "racist", "ethnocentric", "white supremacist", etc. is not useful at all. These are terms of people who have bought into Marxist revisionist history. Get beyond it, please.

-- Though Robert is right that Christianity is a universal religion (the only one, IMO other than Buddhism), we need to understand that Western Civilzation is different than Eastern Civilization and it is not wrong to want to keep the foundation stones of the West present. The increasing immigration waves hitting the European shores comprised of people who don't hold Western values and with no intention of accepting Western values is a threat to Western Civilization -- plain and simple.

-- Lastly, why are we so scared to be proud of Western/European culture? Do we all think that by being proud that we're all going to turn into Nazis, spilling the blood of all the 'others'? Lets be rational here. We say that ethnocentrism is a bad thing -- but why is it not bad when the Chinese are ethnocentric? Or the arabs? Of the Africans? Or the Native Americans?

Why is it only bad when it's white Europeans?

PMK--

Understood. But I don't think rejecting this alliance is the same as holding out for the help of "angels."

For that matter, I don't see the BNP and their allies as helping. Rather, I think that by incorporating their anti-jihad cause into a larger agenda with a racial/ethnic dimension, they are playing directly into the hands of all the various advocacy groups who would love to brand the entire counter-jihad movement as racist. And we don't need that.

With that said, I think I'm talking too much, and I don't want to monopolize this discussion. Gonna close the old laptop for a bit...

storagemanager

Iran/Persia have not won a major offensive war in over 200 years. I could care less if they make it to Mecca, in fact I will would give them rations if they tried!

The only thing that will be reborn by that action is a big time sunni backlash against the shia.

It is not our job to stop a Sunni/Shia war. Let them fight it out...I say it will tie up alot of jihadis and it will force the USA to get off the middle east oil addiction. The only people who don't want this are people who are invloved in the middle east oil trade (Halliburton for example).

Also...How is Iran any worse then Saudi Arabia?

They are both enemies of the USA.

Also...How is Iran any worse then Saudi Arabia?

They are both enemies of the USA.


Posted by: greatcometof1577 ..Iran is building a nuke..to use on Israel..that doesn't bother you?

"If Robert and others have been consulted, then I must plead ignorance."

I recall that taking place, and CAIR - as could be expected - making noise about consulting an 'Islamophobe'.

It might have been Daniel Pipes, of course.

"Henrik, please excuse an insulated American for not grasping European ploitics."

It is rather complex, no doubt. Sure makes a difference having grown up here, knowing about our resistance movements against the Nazis, the benign and irrelevant nature of the neo-Nazi groups, and the utter disinterest in any kind of fascism.

It takes a somewhat myopic mind to percieve these fringe groups as anything like a threat. Unfortunately, Øivind Strømmen - who I never heard about before he was elevated to fame by Charles Johnson - seems to have such a mind. A well-designed web page and an abundance of confusing 'evidence' is sometimes enough to lead busy people astray into confused opinions about matters they didn't research properly themselves.

We Europeans frequently shake over heads in disbelief over the kind of flash judgement about Europe we see from the US government. The Clinton-Bush politics in the Balkans, the pressure on us to join the Iraq war and the pressure from the US to accept Turkey (!!) into the European Union are just three such items where we attempt feverishly to resist US pressure to do the *wrong* thing, while still preserving a friendly relationship across the Atlantic.

Many simply give up and turn to pure anti-Americanism. My Greek friends are particular prone to that, due to endless American support to their ungrateful ally Turkey. I solidly refuse to fall into that trap.

But the Balkans situation in particular has me in grief. We are doing all we can from the anti-Jihad people to counter an independent Kosovo, for example, but the US is working squarely against our and theirs interest by pushing this stupid idea.

The US seems to make a perpetual mistake, in particular after the end of the Cold War, to assume that its model of democracy can be forced on other countries, and that gratitude can be 'bought' from Islamic countries. This is possibly the reason behind many failed efforts, in Bosnia, Kosovo, handing Cyprus over to Turkey and other issues where US interference had to be resisted by small countries, which where in turn vilified and excluded from the company of the 'righteous.

Sorry for the little rant. I'm somewhat upset by Americans passing hurried judgements on European matters. We have a sense of tradition and roots that doesn't match well with quick solutions.

The Ron Paul campaign implosion demonstrates very clearly why it's a mistake to ally with supremacists.
VB and the other splinter nationalist parties bring more baggage and hate than worth, sorry.

To some points above:

Nobody's attacking VB - people are just demonstrating factually who they are and what they are about, . Every war in Europe for the past few centuries has been started, aided, or abetted by similar groups (google "black hand" as one example.)

The groups in question have demonstrated they are willing to attack putative allies at the slightest criticism or question.

They are opportunists who will turn any event to political theater for their single-issue. (see SIOE blog on the 9/11 demonstration in Brussells.)

The groups in question demonstrate a marked willingness to lie.

The groups in question are a clear detriment to actively confronting Islamofascism anywhere but on Euro-turf. Note the anti-Iraq war sentiment above, even though that action has killed thousands of Al Qaeda and AQAM terrorists.

"'Being there' refers to the CounterJihad summit, not the demonstrations."

"Yet the people who Robert and Charles are condemning where there."

That would certainly include me. I was there, and I enjoyed a very intellectual conference with a strong Jewish presence.

The explicit Jewish presence, in itself, excludes any Nazi sympathies of any of the participants. BNP was explicitly not invited, and everyone from Britain was screened for possible BNP relations. None were found.

I can also testify that no White Pride incitement or anything related took place at the conference. There was much advanced information about the nature of Jihad, about the state of the various countries, and about what could be done about it, in good style.

If Robert and others wishes to condemn me for being there or for having friendly relations to the Vlaams Belang, I cannot prevent it. I consider it unjust, and I have taken great effort to clarify my views on fascism and racism above.

storagemanager

If we were not in Iraq now...we could have gotten rid of that nuke by now. By staying in Iraq, we are stuck with having to play nice with the majority Shia popluation in Iraq. We CANNOT attack Iran as long as we are in Iraq, because Bush (and the next president) don't want to lose the support of the Islamic Shia political parties who run Iraq.

We have three choices...

(1) Get out of Iraq, bomb Iran to the stone age...thus no nuke.

(2) Stay in Iraq, attack Iran, then fight a major shia uprising in Iraq.

(3) Stay in Iraq, prevent shia uprising by not attacking Iran, Iran nukes Israel, Israel nukes Iran.

I like No. 1....better then 2 or 3.

I do not know too much about either of these political parties - nor do I have to. They have a right to make their case and live or die based on the votes they are able to attract.

Asking people to forfeit their millenniums old identity seems a bit ridiculous to me. Asking a culture to sacrifice itself at the altar of political correctness because it is historically 'white' is also a bit over the top. Must other races forfeit their identity? I've seen no evidence of such a requirement - on the contrary, I've seen the exact opposite in the form of hyphenated descriptors to ensure that a point is made of race, or 'special studies' departments in universities.

The entire race issue is a steaming hypocritical pile. I do not know what good Mr Spencer hopes to achieve by shining a spotlight on this hypocrisy of multiculturalism. But it does seem he's founds a good wedge with which he can fracture a consensus.

I'll stand with the Europeans on this. I'd rather Europe not turn into another Lebanon, though it seems it might be too late for that.

I'm somewhat upset by Americans passing hurried judgements on European matters.

Henrik,

You have the right. I, as an American, also have the right be somewhat upset by Europeans (not YOU) who mindlessly call the US militaristic and lots more. What goes around comes around.

Ayaan Ali Hirsi said in an interview with a Canucki TV jock:
"We're all racist"- and taken in context, I think we can all agree.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at January 20, 2008 11:06 AM


I don't agree. However, I think what she means is that we are all ethnocultural-centric, that we tend to favor our own cultural-ethnic group. That is natural.

Racism-supremacism ("the best people" crap) is a different animal. It's a claim (Arabs, e.g.) of being better than other people-superior. (And even among Arabs, Egyptians are looked down on. I suspect, in part, that is because some have black African ancestry.)

In any event, cultural-ethnocentrism is not racism. The Irish (e.g.) may favor their own culture-ethnicity, but the vast majority would recognize that in terms of contributions to the world (science, music, and much else) Jewish culture is superior to theirs. However, they still would prefer their own culture. It's not racism, its natural.

Ernest:
If the issue of race is such a "steaming hypocritical pile" then why aren't the groups willing to drop identity politics and fight the real war of ideas, economics, and soldiers?

The answer is that the can't drop identity politics anymore than Ron Paul can. Otherwise their support would evaporate. The Flemish independence movement has plenty of legitimate heroes, like those from the Blauwvoterij, and from the battles in Flanders Fields, but instead VB chooses to commemorate Nazis at Ijzerwake.

Henrik, while I whole heartedly endorse your comment regarding the excellent work of Robert, Hugh and other assorted commentors upon the nature and motivations of our adversaries; I must disagree with your point as to the necessity of maintaining the moral high ground...quite simply, war is NOT a moral endeavor, it is the action of killing your enemies in sufficient numbers that their side of the conflict either seeks peace at any price, or surrenders, or you yourself and your confrères become the defeated. While there are arguments justifying killing someone in self defense, it can never be argued that that is a moral stance. A necessary one maybe, a moral one, no. The moral high ground becomes nothing more than a lead weight around the necks of those who espouse it, when one side adheres to its constraints, while the other ignores all such considerations in pursuit of its goals. War is war, and must I point out...we did not declare this one, it has been foisted upon us, by radicals and fools.

Having been an avid reader of both Robert and Hugh for over two years now, I am drawn to an inevitable understanding that radical Islam is not an ideology which can be negotiated with; it is the ultimate in extremist intolerance. When it finally comes down to it...it is us v's them.

Again: asking people to change is not what folks are doing. They can continue being who they are. Just don't expect me to accept them.

Marisol,

The various advocacy groups have already branded the entire counter-jihad movement as racist. Why should we care what they think? Joining forces to fight the jihad doesn't mean we subscribe to the rest of the BNP's agenda, anymore than joing with the Russians (sorry, they keep coming up) meant we espoused Communism.
Once the fight against the jihadists is won, then we go on to fight the racist ideologies of the BNP and other fringe groups. If we don't win the first, the second won't matter. People who want to keep their hands clean will die. They'll keep their moral superiority intact but they'll die. There's no getting around it.

OK, now I'm in the middle of this, I might as well continue.

I know that SOIE has made some really harsh assaults on VB for what transpired at the demonstrations and the ensuing press conference.

Now, I happen to be Danish. I have been in contact with Anders Gravers of SIAD, and I'm not quite happy with his approach. He does some interesting things that generates some press awareness, but his organisation is also considered a bit on the edge, attracting potential racist/fascist elements. Last time I visisted their web page- and, for obvious reasons, that is a while ago, I found on their front page a rant against Marx, duely noting that he was a Jew. It's probably not intentional, but it sure is sluggish and bad style.

Further, I sense an ambition by the side of Anders Gravers to cast himself as the Great Leader of the anti-Jihad movement. That is somewhat unhealthy.

Vlaams Belang, on the other hand, is a full-blown political party with a complete organisation, a detailed political program (which is clearly anti-fascist, BTW), and a lot of experience. Their stands on important issues shows an impressive moral clarity way above that of SIAD.

Steven Gash and Anders Gravers caused scandals at the press conference in the European Parliament. First Anders Gravers embarrased his hosts by trying to go through wearing a bulletproof vest, something completely unheard of.

Then, at the press conference proper, which as a procedure of the European Parliament can be hosted only by actual members of the parliament, Steven Gash suddenly blamed Philip Claeys of hijacking _their_ press conference, and left without taking the unique opportunity to speak. He simply threw it out in anger over having to follow the procedure of the parliament and the instructions given by their hosts.

I would not take the assorted rants and half-baked excuses from SOIE at face values. These people have little experience and are easily upset when things don't go according to their own plans and intentions.

PMK,
By your logic if Alex Jones turned anti-jihadi tomorrow we should ally with him, and ignore the troofers marching around with their 9/11 was a hoax signs.

Henrik,

Vlaams Belang uses Voorpost and NSV to organize and partner their events. They use VJW for security. Pot calls Kettle black.

I don't know, Thanos. Black kids in the US won't study lest they be accused of 'acting white', but then people scream if someone points out their lower test scores, yelling 'racist!'.

It makes no sense to me.

Question: can anyone point to a number of differently sourced articles that reported on the Cities against Islamisation demonstration?

Is it 100% assured that the BNP were represented there?

That's the whole point: basing every move you make first on identity ("Eigen volk veerst! Vlaams Kracht!"; respectively "Our People first" and "Flemish Power!" - both slogans of VB) is a patently stupid way to work. Allying with these groups would be tactical idiocy.

"I, as an American, also have the right be somewhat upset by Europeans (not YOU) who mindlessly call the US militaristic and lots more. What goes around comes around."

Yup, it's complex, and name-calling just isn't the way out of this.

Let me put down my own record:

1) Balkans: Siding with the wrong people - bad. Clinton started this.

2) Afghanistan: Getting in, pulverizing Taleban - good. Building democracy? Questionable.

3) Iraq: Picking on an (evil) secular leader - bad. Distraction, waste of resources.

I don't mind military action, not at all. It's just vital that it goes against the real enemy. Making a 'show of strength' can be tempting, but in reality it confuses things drastically.

I really don't like the military adventurism that Carter, Clinton and Bush Jr. advocates. It's much better to lean back slightly, and then when someone attacks us to pulverize them mercilessly.

Reagan had this moral clarity and stood his ground admirably against the Soviet Union. Bush Senior did so in great style against Iraq, and got out fast rather than expending huge resources, diplomatically and economically, in a vain attempt to build democracy.

I disagree with elements of American policy but basically consider the American nation our indispensable friend.

Point three above -

You assume you know the outcome Henrik, time will tell that tale.

Right now Iraq wants the US as an ally and wants to host three airbases. I consider that a leg up in the volatile mid-East.

Posted by: shiva

'Being there' refers to the CounterJihad summit, not the demonstrations.
Yet the people who Robert and Charles are condemning where there
Yes, the "white nationalists" and various racist xenophobes were indeed there, tainting the entire proceedings. That is precisely the problem that launched this entire controversy.
.

First of all, thank you Mr. Spencer. After applying the "wait and see" stance not as a rationalization, you've chosen to distance yourself from groups parties like the VB and the BNP.

Just a couple of points that have surfaced frequently enough over at LGF.

The comparison "allying with Stalin" is not proper. The situation then was life-and-death desperate, with thousands dying. Even though it is bad today, no-one can honestly say that the situation is this desperate today. In fact, the US handled that pact very poorly, enabling the communists to dominate Easter Europe for half a century. It is not a good example of how to ally with evil to defeat a greater evil, at least not how to do it properly.

Someone raised a BNP argument about other groups based on preserving/protecting the rights/interests of ethnic and other groups (black, gay, lesbian, etc.) and went from there to say "why shouldn't white people be allowed to protect their rights as well?" Since I do not know all the groups enumerated on that list, I can only generally say that to the extent that their arguments are based on ethnicity/race, they are racist, and should be condemned as such. The BNP's argument boils down to, "All these groups are racist, so we can be too." Yeah, right.

The problem with this approach is that it accepts the racist multi-culturalist view wholesale. The BNP, VB et al are completely incapable of defending the core values of Western Civilization, since they don't even know what they are. They are a reaction to the Left, who have completely swallowed the message of the Left. The only rights that need protected are individual rights.

Thank you again, Mr Spencer.

Regards,

Sheik-

If Ayaan Ali Hirsi (e.g.) tends to be more comfortable with people who speak her language, share cultural "values", eat similar foods, speak a similar or the same language, that is being human. It does not make her a racist.

However, one of the problems today is that European groups seem to be the only ones not allowed to be human in these matters. The condemnation of any European ethnocentrism is based on the false premise that Europeans are the only group that have been imperialistic on matters of culture-ethnicity. (Actually, West Europeans (the sea-explorer nations) came late to the Imperialism-Empire game.)

The truth is that all groups have engaged in Empire games, and in many ways some Western European Imperial-isms (British, e.g.) have been far more respectful of indigenous cultures-peoples than Muslim Imperialism (look at the Pizarro style destruction of the Indian Hindu culture by Muslims, e.g.).

European groups are not allowed to be naturally ethnocentric as part of a shame-game-hustle. But actually, West European groups have behaved about as bad and good as others in matters of Imperialism. (In many cases the Brits usually (but not always) behaved in a respectful manner to "native" cultures. On the whole, they behaved better than most with their Empire.)

The shame game hustle (it's a laugh for Arabs or Turks to play this game) has to be seen for the fraud that it is. It's a hustle, and lately, especially a Muslim hustle.

"You assume you know the outcome Henrik, time will tell that tale."

Thanos, true enough. It's just my own opinion on the project. Bush didn't have the courage to identify and face our real enemy and went after a proxy.

It's confusing, and I don't really know where it'll end. But I'm quite certain that in a few years, when we evaluate the expenses and the results, we'll conclude that it wasn't worth it.

A significant factor is that the mission wears down military and economical resources of the US government. It is serious deficit spending, and it will have unpleasent consequences later.

Henrik

I am referring to being at the demo

"Our true enemy" changes country -- it's groups like the revolutionary guards in Iran, and the Muslim Brotherhood who shift the nexus about. We have to be willing to follow the ball if we are to win.

First of all, thank you Mr. Spencer. After applying the "wait and see" stance not as a rationalization, you've chosen to distance yourself from groups parties like the VB and the BNP.

Just a couple of points that have surfaced frequently enough over at LGF.

The comparison "allying with Stalin" is not proper. The situation then was life-and-death desperate, with thousands dying. Even though it is bad today, no-one can honestly say that the situation is this desperate today. In fact, the US handled that pact very poorly, enabling the communists to dominate Easter Europe for half a century. It is not a good example of how to ally with evil to defeat a greater evil, at least not how to do it properly.

Someone raised a BNP argument about other groups based on preserving/protecting the rights/interests of ethnic and other groups (black, gay, lesbian, etc.) and went from there to say "why shouldn't white people be allowed to protect their rights as well?" Since I do not know all the groups enumerated on that list, I can only generally say that to the extent that their arguments are based on ethnicity/race, they are racist, and should be condemned as such. The BNP's argument boils down to, "All these groups are racist, so we can be too." Yeah, right.

The problem with this approach is that it accepts the racist multi-culturalist view wholesale. The BNP, VB et al are completely incapable of defending the core values of Western Civilization, since they don't even know what they are. They are a reaction to the Left, who have completely swallowed the message of the Left. The only rights that need protected are individual rights. Any interest group/party is be definition violating the rights of those excluded.

Thank you again, Mr Spencer.

Regards,

"Alliances of convenience are sometimes necessary"...


not only are they necessary but they sometimes bring about real change. Unfortunately our alliance with Russia in WWII was done out of fear and we needlessly let them take much territory and enslave eastern Europe just because we feared to act.

For an example closer to home, ask our American Democrat Party which honors a former member of the KKK, a man who has used the word "nigger" on national television why they permitted that without so much as a peep of criticism from party leaders.

The Dems fought the Civil Rights bills. When those became reality, they took another tack: entitlement programs to lure African Americans to the Democrats with promises of more goodies for "victims." Daniel Moynihan (the New York *Democrat*)warned them that what they were doing would destroy the African American family. Do you think they cared enough to listen? These were potential voters who could be had for the picking.

Before that, no self-respecting black person would ever have voted for the party which carried Jim Crow laws and "separate but equal" and all the other "normal" discriminations...

Americans simply have no room to judge others, especially others of whom they are so egregiously ignorant.

The BNP is capable of change. The "modernist" faction within the party is aligning against the "traditionalists" to excise racism from the program. As things grow worse, those who are aware of what is going on will start making their way to the BNP.

In the Spring, a million or more African immigrants will flock to England's shores from their waiting space in Libya. There are actually more than 2 million refugees but the rest are headed to other parts of the EU...
________________

In Vlaams Belang, BNP's process of jettisoning the earlier generation's beliefs has been going on for some time. Yet despite the fact they are the biggest party in Flanders *because* they address the concerns of the citizens of Flanders, unknowledgeable Americans continue to tar them with the brush of "fascism" or "racism" without ever bothering to define their terms. Those are nothing but p.c. scarewords and anyone who flings them around is showing their own political philosophy -- right out of the socialists' playbook.

These unknowledgeable people haven't ever talked face-to-face with a Flanders citizen; they don't know the difference between the Waloons and the Flemish or why there are tensions between them; they have no idea of the the respective histories of each group; and they can't tell you how or why or even when Belgium was hammered together for the convenience of other European countries.

Belgium is not a state, it's an artifact -- and a corrupt one at that. No wonder the EU chose Brussels as its headquarters. Perfect fit for another artifical entity.

When VB was initially slandered, the same folks were going after SD in Sweden. Only they found they'd been spoon-fed the wrong information by Swedish leftists who want SD to fail (it's not failing...it continues to grow even though the unions in Sweden have tried to get rid of any members who join). When it became clear that the charges agqainst SD were wrong and waaay out of date, all the slandering stopped; they just quietly dropped the tar brush and moved on. There were no apologies for their slanderous workover of SD -- instead, they just renewed their attacks on whatever cardboard-cut-out villains they could manage to prop up for attack.

As for CVF not meeting in Brussels on 9/11 -- CVF was requested to change the date by those who would be responsible for their welfare. Turns out the request was spot-on. You have only to see the videos of the Walloon police attacking the demonstrators to realize what a set-up it was, and how much hatred the Walloons have for the Flemish. Mayor Teddie was smart: he didn't use Flemish police because they wouldn't have applied the inhumane tactics that the Walloons were only too happy to use.

The BNP, VB, and SD do not exist in a vacuum. They are growing because the chaos and displacement in their respective nations (are we still permitted to say "nation"?) has unsettled and scared many people who see their way of life and their personal safety being overwhelmed.

I don't see the people in charge offering any remedies, do you?

NB Thanks to Albion for the list of racist fellowships in Britain. But they're not white people, so they have the "right" to congregate. That is quite a list!

Reminds me of our Congressional "Black Caucus." Sheesh...

First of all, thank you Mr. Spencer. After applying the "wait and see" stance not as a rationalization, you've chosen to distance yourself from groups parties like the VB and the BNP.

Just a couple of points that have surfaced frequently enough over at LGF.

The comparison "allying with Stalin" is not proper. The situation then was life-and-death desperate, with thousands dying. Even though it is bad today, no-one can honestly say that the situation is this desperate today. In fact, the US handled that pact very poorly, enabling the communists to dominate Easter Europe for half a century. It is not a good example of how to ally with evil to defeat a greater evil, at least not how to do it properly.

Someone raised a BNP argument about other groups based on preserving/protecting the rights/interests of ethnic and other groups (black, gay, lesbian, etc.) and went from there to say "why shouldn't white people be allowed to protect their rights as well?" Since I do not know all the groups enumerated on that list, I can only generally say that to the extent that their arguments are based on ethnicity/race, they are racist, and should be condemned as such. The BNP's argument boils down to, "All these groups are racist, so we can be too." Yeah, right.

The problem with this approach is that it accepts the racist multi-culturalist view wholesale. The BNP, VB et al are completely incapable of defending the core values of Western Civilization, since they don't even know what they are. They are a reaction to the Left, who have completely swallowed the message of the Left. The only rights that need protected are individual rights. Any interest group/party is be definition violating the rights of those excluded.

Thank you again, Mr Spencer.

Regards,

"Yes, the "white nationalists" and various racist xenophobes were indeed there."

Spiny, where you at the conference to substantiate that slur?

I think not. I was there, which is the reason why I know better.

Please, if you feel like condemning racists, find some real ones. Going with the mob condemning whoever gets accused doesn't work well. It isn't based on fact, only prejudice, and it is rather exhausting for us trying to do some useful work to have to defend ourselves against these unjust judgements.

Right now Iraq wants the US as an ally and wants to host three airbases. I consider that a leg up in the volatile mid-East.

Posted by: Thanos at January 20, 2008 1:44 PM

Who cares about a volatile middle east when the real front in this war is the takeover of European cities and the demographic conquest by Islam.

Sorry about the multiple posts.

Correction: the VB and the BNP are not reactions to the Left's racism. They have their lineage which goes further back than the Left.

KM:

The real war? pfft. Tell it to this guy about your "real war in Europe."

http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?p=1686

Bravo, Robert! Your principled stand against those who would hijack the anti-jihad movement and turn it into some sort of race-based nonsense does you great credit. It bodes well for the future of the struggle of individual liberty against Islamic supremacism.

Very impressive thanos, I dont see how his actions brave and honorable as they were will have any impact on the EUrabian front though. Whats your point exactly?

"VB et al are completely incapable of defending the core values of Western Civilization, since they don't even know what they are."

More unsubstianted slurs...

Now, I actually happen to *know* people from the Vlaams Belang, and they tend to be well read, highly educated persons. Their main cause is the restoration of Flemish independence, which most certainly is deeply rooted in history and tradition. You may want to read "A Throne in Brussels" which expains the historical details of Belgium and the reasons they wish to dissolve that artificial state.

While the VB itself is a non-religous party, several prominent members are Catholics. That's important. Catholicism is at the heart of European tradition and Western civilization, as is, BTW, Flanders herself.

The people of Vlaams Belang, however, are doing something that is highly controversial in today's Europe: They are requesting the right to rule their own country without being dictated all kinds of political correctness from the United Nations or the European Union.

That is difficult to understand and respect in a time where EU wants to compete with the US for being the leading power in the world, imposing their world view on others, regardless if they wish it or not.

We are seriously worried about the development in the European Union, where 'unity' has become one of the main *purposes* of the Union, a phenomenon that has caused one of the old dissidents of the USSR to coin the term 'EUSSR' for the trend. It's a problem here, and we need to defend our right to debate it openly.

For European values and identiy, I highly recommend the entertaining book "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark to understand more about how European values as rooted in the Christian tradition, including the principles of private property, the goodness of free trade and markets, and the universality of fundamental human rights.

It's easy to pass early judgement in complicated matters. My friends have faults, both in Europe and in the United States.

I concur with RS.

Swedish SD have the same kind of dark past as VB, only they have apparently been more earnest in their attempts to remove that past. The founders hail from organizations that were openly fascist and racist.

This leads me to believe that they do not genuinely want to be Nazis. Nevertheless, their reason for being is to be a party of interest for (ethnic) Swedes.

http://guftafs.wordpress.com/2007/12/26/sverigedemokraterna-and-the-meaning-of-ethnic/

So, for whatever reasons they have shed their fascist past, they still cling to their racist ideals.

km

"Who cares about a volatile middle east when the real front in this war is the takeover of European cities and the demographic conquest by Islam."

Correct! Warfare is more then just battles, it is demographics, economics, political, cultural and more.

The greatest chance we have losing this war, is losing Europe by demographic conquest. That is the real front lines, but the policy makes in europe and the USA are clueless.

"But while culture has a racial component, culture and race are not identical."

Quite - I am a European who was born in England and lives in Spain ..

I am {sometimes} happy with my culture - which, in the main, is very liberal about matters such as sex, religion and free speech - and provides a level of civilisation that will do me very nicely thank you ..

But when somebody from outside Europe pines for a day when they can reconquer "Al-Andaluz" as part of a "New Caliphate" - that annoys me - because I live in "Al-Andaluz" and don't want to be a part of their culture - especially if they want to take it by force ..

Most people of (race/colour/religion/gender orientation/etc ) who come to (country/state/culture) Europe want to be part of it - they are always welcome.

Those that are not welcome are those who wish to change it in their own image ..

To dull the old Marxist saw: Any party that won't have Robert Spencer is a party I won't join.

Henrik

I'm afraid that parties like the VB are incapable of defending the uniquely Western values of individualism and political freedom, your personal friendship with well-educated individuals supporting the VB notwhithstanding.

The VB reveal themselves by putting at the core of their political program ethnically-(race-)based separatism, which is nothing less than primitive tribalism.

Any party pushing for group rights, be they ethnic, gender, whatever, violates the rights of the individual. Individual rights and the political implementation are the crowning achievement to date of the West in the sphere of politics. Now, how can you persist in your claim that the VB are defending Western civilization when their core values immediately violate the rights of the individual?

Vlaams Belang is indefensible, Henrik, so quit trying. They and their long-standing policies are at the root of the controversy. Nothing they do on the anti-Islamization front can be called "useful work".

The only opinion about BNP and VB which really matters is whether you support putting them in jail for their views. I don't.

You know that famous quote "first they came for..."?

What if first they come for the "Nazis"?

Are you OK with that?

Who defines Nazi?

The Telegraph is grooming the UK for sharia over at Dhimmi Watch. This all has a fiddling while burning quality to it.

Excellent post Beagle.

Henrik:

If Robert and others wishes to condemn me for being there or for having friendly relations to the Vlaams Belang, I cannot prevent it. I consider it unjust, and I have taken great effort to clarify my views on fascism and racism above.

Come now, my friend. I didn't say anything about the conference in that post. Have you forgotten that I was there also? I know it wasn't a racialist or neo-Nazi event, because I was there. I know it was a strongly pro-Israel event, because I was there.

The conference, unfortunately, became the occasion for this controversy over the VB. That does not mean the conference was some evil thing, or that I am condemning people for being there.

Hope to work with you in the future.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

"Now, how can you persist in your claim that the VB are defending Western civilization when their core values immediately violate the rights of the individual?"

They do not.

They advocate something inherently Conservative, the right to run their own nation, based on a free market economy. That is a very controversial standpoint in today's Europe, where the cry for 'Unity!' in the European Union is crushing dissent and vilifying those who do not adhere to the vision of the One United Europe projecting its power into the world at large.

The problem with that One United Europe (also known as the EUSSR) is that it will be utterly unable to defend basic rights of the individual, such as the freedom of expression, and it will furthermore be unable to sustain the extensive welfare state it intends to maintain.

Vlaams Belang wishes the nation of Flanders to become the state of Flanders. That is a legit political viewpoint, not least in the light of the rather unpleasent history of Belgium (check out the horrors of Belgian Congo!), and regardless of one agreeing with that political viewpoint or not, it is imperative for democracy that we defend their right to have and to express that.

For the record, I know not only supporters of the VB, I know members of parliament, one of which considers me his personal friend. We have mutually checked each other for 'extremist' views over more than two years, and have to our satisfaction found absolutely none.

My personal point of view is that a conservative policy - lean state, reasonable taxes - and a strong defense of fundamental civil liberties is the only sustainable way of defending individual rights in the long term.

I will add that socialistic Europe has never altogether eschewed collectivism.

Racism, repellent or not, is a form of collectivism.

It's not going away any time soon.

How do you tell people "This form of collectivism is good, but that form of collectivism is bad" ?

The cure for racism is individualism, not other forms of collectivism.

And it's worth noting in this connection that the basic mohammedan approach to humanity is collectivist as well. Us and them. The house of piece and the house of war. The faithful and the infidel. (The house of wax and the house of pancakes?)

Europe's got a real problem in this area!

And I'm not saying this to be spiteful or out of a sense of American superiority. I mean it. It's a practical problem with basic philosophy.

The European has to say to the mohammedan, "Our form of collectivism is OK because we recognize human rights. But yours isn''t because you don't."

All collectivisms devalue the individual. It's just a matter of degree.

So the mohammedan has the opportunity to claim that he is simply more consistent and committed than the European to the same basic idea.

It's a difficult position to argue against in a convincing way.

Europe has a problem.

I hope they solve it.

I accept them as allies (to the degree that they can be allies).

I reject the racists.

But they've got a real problem over there.

Sorry for the delayed reply, but to speak to KM's point: The taliban that Michael Moore's team slew didn't show up in Europe.

To escalate the problems in Europe over the problems in the true front is foolish. This war will be fought in Islamic lands or it will be fought in ours.

I choose to fight in Dar al Islam, you are agreeing with the Islamists that Europe is Dar al Harb. You can try the Maginot line approach KM, but it didn't work too well last time.

Building tribal fortress Europa isn't the answer, any more than it was in the Barbary wars.

/pimf moore=Murphy -- multitasking here.

To Henrik, Robert, Marisol et all.

There is another dynamic which is about to play out on the world stage, something alluded to by a few others in the above posts, and that is the financial one. Given the sub-prime debacle in the US and the currently deepening crisis this brings up. The Northern Rock disaster in Britain, flopped like a wet haddock into the lap of an economic buffoon to effect a repair. And the clear and dire warnings in Christopher Ondaatje's book, "The Power of Paper", about the pending collapse of the market place due to gross mismanagement and rapacious greed. The future looks very bleak for all parties, for the prediction of an imminent collapse. Ondaatje's premise is based upon the degree to which the market is built upon trust, and , given how governments no longer have the means to maintain that trust, that the market will inevitably, at some point in the not too distant future, simply crash, like in 1929. I would point out that Ondaatje is no socialist economic guru, but a fully fledged Capitalist, who has built and made an empire of his own, he knows of what he speaks.

How will this affect the unfolding events. Well for one, the welfare state will come to a grinding halt, at best, it will be soup kitchens for the masses, and no more, so the teeming masses of immigrants on the dole will be hard pressed, and the lure that draws more of them to Western Europe will probably evaporate overnight. And what of the masses of indigenous peoples, they will surely not remain passive and unheard. Also, the oil spigot will shut off over night, for with no money, or worthless paper, what do you use to pay for the stuff. So the money weapon ceases. Also those Western apologists for Islam will find their sources of revenue quickly dry up. The oil barons will quickly lose the ear of the political elites as they themselves scramble for safety from their irate populations. Incidentally one of Ondaatje's predictions is that the dollar and the pound will be worth less than 10% of their current value within a few years, (though he is not specific as to the time frame, he concludes, sooner rather than later). If he is right, we will have a long hard haul ahead of us, and the social upheaval will be incalculable.

Speculation...yep...but are you ready to bet your future against all the current indicators. Oh, and yeah, here is another story the media is rather quiet about...lets see shall we. I sincerely hope that I am dead wrong, but things don't look too promising.

Yes, a very Malthusian paradigm, but all the indicators are not good. Do our elites have the intellectual acumen necessary to steer us away from the rocks, I don't know, but I haven't been all that impressed by any of their actions for a good few years. How about you, do you have any faith in the abilities of our elites to see anything beyond their immediate needs as relates to re-election.

Given the above bleak scenario, who would bet against the rise of outright fascist organizations. The longer we leave them in the cold, the more we refuse to engage their arguments by marginalization, the closer we move towards that nightmare. It is a dangerous game we play with our pious virtue.

Henrik: VB and Flemish nationalists are chameleons when it comes to political and economic systems, they have been throughout their history. This is demonstrated by the differing underlying philosophies of their social groups (Maartenfonds, Davidsfonds, etc.)

What VB says they are for is something they might be against tomorrow, this is demonstrated by their history.

As long as they lay wreaths for Staf LeClerq, they will be no friend of mine.

One note: I completely agree that the current EU constitution will be a disaster for all of Europe if enabled.

"I will add that socialistic Europe has never altogether eschewed collectivism."

One can't. Socialism is, by its very definition, a collectivist ideology.

I agree with JustAnotherRichard that we are quite likely on the edge of a economical collapse that will be the end of the welfare state. Fascism, as invented by Mussolini, made it into a popular movement by advocating the welfare state, and it is quite possible that our current governments will try to hang on to the concept by themselves moving in a fascist direction, not unlike Woodrow Wilson did in the US during WW1.

I expect the return of a more unregulated market economy. The faster the better, for if we postpone it too long, the debts will be all the more staggering.

"The comparison "allying with Stalin" is not proper. The situation then was life-and-death desperate, with thousands dying. Even though it is bad today, no-one can honestly say that the situation is this desperate today."

guftafs,

Just how desperate must things get? Do you want to wait until there are thousands dying on the streets? Or, will a few hundred due? Will you set up a desperationeuropawatch.com and keep an updated desperation meter running to let us know when its time to take desperate measures??

Will you volunteer to serve time for anyone convicted of violating hate speech laws when they write about the Islamic infiltration in a manner that you freely do in your writing? Would a prison sentence make you desperate enough?

Please stop painting Europe's issues as if everything will collapse tomorrow as we sleep overnight. You all know that's not true, and it smacks of crisis mongering, a favorite tactic of our foes on the left.

While there are urgent issues, and important ones, we are not all doomed. Thanks.

""What we need is Winston Churchill." - Ray Boyd."

"We have our Churchills. They are named, in no particular order, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Serge Trifkovic, Andrew Bostom, Bat Ye'or, David Littman, Flemming Rose, Sam Solomon etc." - Henrik

Let's look closer at Winston Churchill (I quote from a Guardian article last year bringing to light Cabinet meeting notes):

Sir Winston Churchill and his cabinet colleagues, concerned at the number of "coloured people" they thought were moving to Britain to take advantage of the welfare state, considered introducing immigration controls more than 50 years ago, according to records released yesterday from the National Archives.

The prime minister [Churchill] began the discussion, saying: "Problems wh. will arise if many coloured people settle here. Are we to saddle ourselves with colour problems in UK? Attracted by Welfare State. Public opinion in UK won't tolerate it once it gets beyond certain limits."

Florence Horsbrugh, the minister of education, added that the problem was becoming "serious" in Manchester. David Maxwell-Fyfe, the home secretary, reported that the total of "coloured people" in Britain had risen from 7,000 before the second world war to 40,000 at the time of writing, with 3,666 of those unemployed, and 1,870 on national assistance, or benefits.

He referred to those "living on immoral earnings". Of 62 people convicted the previous year in the Metropolitan police area, 24 were "coloured". He added: "All adminve. measures to discourage have bn. taken. Only further step wd. be immigrn. control over admn. of [British subjects] to UK. Wd. have to admit in Parlt. tht. purpose of legn. was to control [admission] of coloured. There is a case on merits for excludg. riff-raff. But politically it wd. be represented & discussed on basis of a colour limitation. That wd. offend the floating vote viz., the old Liberals. We shd. be reversing age-long tradn. tht. B. [subjects] have right of entry to mother-country of Empire. We shd. offend Liberals, also sentimentalists."

But fearing public feeling, he said the risk of introducing controls should not be taken "today". He warned: "The col. popns. are resented in Lpl., Paddington & other areas. By those who come into contact with them. But those who don't are apt to take Liberal view."

Another cabinet member referred to an "increasing evil" and said that principles "laid down 200 yrs. ago are not applicable to-day. See dangers of colour discriminn. But other [Dominions] control entry of B. subjects. Cd. we present action as coming into line...& securing uniformity?"

[Did Churchill reprimand his colleagues for saying all of the above? It appears not. Instead:]

Churchill said the question was whether it might be wise "to allow public feeling to develop a little more - before takg. action...May be wise to wait...But it wd. be fatal to let it develop too far."

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/politicspast/story/0,,2142476,00.html

USorThem

For the comparison to be valid, the situations have to be similar. They are not, and therefore the argument falls that we have to ally ourselves with parties that have ulterior motives. (Charles Johnson of LGF rightly pointed out that in the next breath the same person will usually say that there's nothing with the parties anyway. Inconsistency ...)

Henrik

As Thanos rightly pointed out the signals from the VB are mixed. But the race-based element is there, and can and will be the basis for discrimination, ie, violation of individual rights. And as long as this element exists, this is an insurmountable obstacle to any co-operation with them.

Regards,

Here's what I had to say back in December, my stance hasn't changed a whit, and I'm not seeing anything here to convince me otherwise, rather I am seeing the same circular discussions:

"You should also be aware before you read that I’ve decided on the matter — my conclusion is that allying with Vlaams Belang would be strategically inept while providing little value, and would both harm our efforts to stem illegal immigration and sap support for our anti-Islamofacist efforts.

This is the case whether VB is taking a course to reform or not. There is too much evidence from their own sites, manifestos, statements, party publications, and affiliated groups that their leadership is not distant enough from the stance on collaborators, identity politics, and immature political theater to make any alliance with them sane. Even if they are making whole-hearted honest efforts to reform, the track record is just not long enough. (Some in their leadership are I think, some others aren’t.)"

quftafs

Well please explain what you think would constitute a sufficiently desperate situation. Give examples please. What test should be used to let us know it is desperate enough before you would support an alliance? Or would that possibly be, never?

When No-go zones reach 200? 400? 1000 per nation?
Or, are no-go zones just an exaggeration.

The point is, for many in Britain, admittedly not all, the desperation level appears to have hit its peek. You ask them to wait before you support them. How long do you think they should wait? Surely there is some point when things are desparate enough. You said above that alliance with Stalin seemed Ok at the point when thousand were dying in the street. Do you propose a similar threshold?

Robert Spencer and Marisol -- Thank you.

I have friends and family in Great Britain. They've all told me that the BNP is bad news and they want no part of it.

"Please stop painting Europe's issues as if everything will collapse tomorrow as we sleep overnight. You all know that's not true, and it smacks of crisis mongering, a favorite tactic of our foes on the left." - Thanos

I am not painting this as solely a European problem, it is a world wide problem, as is the Islamic jihad. You may chose to believe that tomorrow will be bright and sunny. But by doing so, you leave yourself adrift at the currents flowing around you, and must therefore react to events as they unfold. My argument is to engage with the forces which will in all probability shape the coming events.

I repeat as mentioned before; I am NOT a BNP supporter, they are after all National Socialists, indeed, not my own choice, but given the dearth of political opposition to the current forces driving the political cart, it will be an almost given, that the reigns of political power will fall into their laps by default in the coming years. I read somewhere that the BNP are doubling their membership every 13 months, if this trend is true, and with seemingly no viable alternatives arising to assume responsibility from any other quarter, what then? Can you sketch an alternative to this direction, at least one with a basis in anything other than wishful thinking.Europe lacks the political structures from which alternatives may arise, the prevailing orthodoxies have seen to that. We labor under the tyranny of the self-righteous, and it constricts our every action, and so the extremes gain credence, especially when those extremes are painted in pictures which turn out to be bald faced lies. All our choices may not be to our liking, but to await for a savior to walk onto the stage is a faith too far as far as I am concerned

USorThem

(When the Wehrmacht is close enough to Moscow that the parading troops celebrating the revolution went straight from Red Square to the front. This happened in real life. That's desperate.)

Seriously speaking, even though your point is valid, that you have think long-range. I would still come out against allying with the VB, et al. You will enable them, legitimize them and their racist policies. You will discredit yourself and your cause.

That's basically it.

It's up to the European populace and the European pols to come up with the alternative, were I to do so it would smack of imperialism n'est ce pas?

The success of Sarkozy and other conservatives in Europe belies the argument that VB and other tribal nationalists are the only choice. I don't buy it, and if you are in Europe then what's stopping you from CREATING an alternative?

Here at Jihad watch Robert walks a very fine line - he is willing to point out that Islam has problems with frozen scholasticism and other things, something few others are able to do so well because they are more about bluster rather than effect. If he allies with folks like VB who have definite problems, then he invalidates many of his arguments and his in the ensuing noise.

"I read somewhere that the BNP are doubling their membership every 13 months, if this trend is true, and with seemingly no viable alternatives arising to assume responsibility from any other quarter, what then?"

As I mentioned before, there's also the UK Independence Party. Their candidate for the upcoming mayor of London elections is a good chap, in the best sense of the word.

Actually, I'd like people to address the BNP directly over this. Like writing to them pointing out endorsements of racism that need to be changed.

BTW, the basic premise of this thread, that Vlaams Belang has teamed up with BNP, is proven false. Robert has an update way at the top - BNP didn't participate in the conference or the initiative.

Henrik, your support for UKIP and their "very good chap" who stands as a candidate for the mayoral elections for London, ignores a most pertinent point. Ground support for UKIP within Britain as a whole is basically static, it's not going anywhere.

Actually, I'd like people to address the BNP directly over this. Like writing to them pointing out endorsements of racism that need to be changed. - Henrik....Isn't that exactly what I have been calling for here; by engagement we can bring a mainstream view into the equation.

Why do we allow our political adversaries to frame the boundaries of our debates. Why do we meekly accede to the pictures THEY claim are the accurate reflection of what reality is? We already know they are out and out liars.


The success of Sarkozy and other conservatives in Europe belies the argument that VB and other tribal nationalists are the only choice. I don't buy it, and if you are in Europe then what's stopping you from CREATING an alternative?

Posted by: Thanos at January 20, 2008 3:51 PM

I am afraid your choice for leading the charge against EUrabia has already failed the test.

http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2008/01/sarkozy-islam-o.html

You said earlier why dont people just form another anti-Islam party. I am afraid with the emergent EUSSR and the multi-cult doctrine that's like saying why didnt the folk's in Soviet Russia make an anticommunsit party and get themselves voted in to dismantle the state.

The Center for Vigilant Freedom has already presented two detailed arguments against Charles Johnson of Little Green Footballs and his trigger-happy labelling gun against the Vlaams Belang (VB):

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/11/12/the-european-foreign-policy-of-charles-johnson/

and

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/10/31/facts-part-3-belgium-3-cases-in-orwellian-justice/

For Robert Spencer to continue to call for VB to "do much more, and much more clearly, if it really wishes to avoid appearing to oppose Islamization solely on racial grounds" and then even after his exculpatory Update to persist in maintaining that "it doesn't change the need for the Vlaams Belang to renounce and distinguish itself clearly from BNP-style racialism, if it indeed hopes to become a broad anti-jihad party" --is, in light of the two persuasive arguments in the articles I linked above (arguments that Charles Johnson has never deigned to refute instead only arrogantly referring to their writer as "Christine" with mock quotes -- so how can he be so clearly "right" as Spencer assures us?), sorta like all those people out there who keep asking Spencer to stop being a bigot and to stop supporting genocide.

When SIOE was started the founders attempted to distance the movement from party politics.

This was largely, though not entirely, for pragmatic reasons. Every political party has supporters, but obviously every party attracts opposition.

If a party, in Europe at least, attracts 30% of the popular vote it is doing very well.

In the UK no government has governed with an electoral mandate, that is over 50% of the total vote, since about 1933.

So even if a party has as much as 50% of the vote, the stop Islamisation movement needs as much of the other 50% as possible in order to succeed.

However, SIOE welcomes the formation of "Cities against Islamisation" as this now offers a choice for people. Those who support the political parties comprising "Cities against Islamisation" can attend events organised by the group.

Those who are not members or supporters of those parties can now support SIOE's actions in the full knowledge that party politics are not part of the effort.

Of course people can attend events of either movement if they feel strongly enough about matters.

Provided the rules of each organisation are respected then people are welcome to support actions as they see fit.

Afterall, it is a matter of personal conscience, which, as we all know, Islam denies people, on certain issues at least.

We have a common goal which we can aim at instead of blasting away at each other.

SIOE will at least try not to get into blog wars and mutual accusations/insults.

I suggest that all anti-Islamists focus on the positives provided by any group's actions against sharia by stealth and encroaching Islamism.

Any differences can/should be now held outside the net and blogosphere.

I thought the BNP factionalisation was more over finances than anything else, see here:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,2231430,00.html

As far as VB, they've not really countered any of this:
http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?p=1753
or this:
http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?p=1856

except to quibble and obfuscate the issues.

Essentially, "Cities against Islamisation" is party political, as it is a coalition of parties.

SIOE is not.

Mmmmm

UPDATE: I am told by sources in Europe that the BNP was not in fact at this meeting and that it is not part of this anti-Islamization group. The Brussels Journal lists these groups that were actually there:

Yesterday politicians from several Europeans countries convened in Antwerp, the stronghold of the Flemish secessionist Vlaams Belang party, to establish the international organisation “Cities against Islamization” (CaI). Apart from the Vlaams Belang, the following three parties have joined the organisation: the FPÖ (Susanne Winter’s party, Austria), Alsace d’Abord (a regionalist party from Alsace, France) and Pro Köln (Germany).
The reports are frankly conflicting. If this one is accurate, it doesn't change the need for the Vlaams Belang to renounce and distinguish itself clearly from BNP-style racialism, if it indeed hopes to become a broad anti-jihad party. I hope it will do so.

Is this update true, will we see Charles Johnston apologize for the following post on his blog?

Spencer on the Eurofascists
Sun, Jan 20, 2008 at 9:05:05 am PST

A big LGF thank you to Robert Spencer for this post, disavowing any support for the Vlaams Belang and their allies, the BNP, and rationally spelling out once again the reasons why allowing neo-fascists to attach themselves like leeches to the anti-jihad movement is a fatal mistake: Vlaams Belang allies with British National Party.

The excusers and apologists are already at it in his comments, of course.

Essentially, "Cities against Islamisation" is party political, as it is a coalition of parties.

SIOE is not.

Essentially, "Cities against Islamisation" is party political, as it is a coalition of parties.

SIOE is not.

Wow, as usual, any thread about the BNP, and it whips up a century in terms of #posts - all with that age old question of are there enough of us anti-Islamists around to afford the luxury of who we allow into our alliance?

Ourselves. I think what we offer at Jihad Watch is another way. And if we align ourselves with people opposed to the principles Robert has stated (and the Vlaams Belang has clarified their stance significantly there by allying with the BNP), we never give ourselves a chance to get the ball rolling as a separate and more desirable alternative.

Persistence is job #1, both in sticking to our guns as far as principles are concerned, and in continuing to strive to change individual minds in every area of society and government. That's what a "grassroots" movement does.
Posted by: MarisolJW
With all due respect, this is presenting a rather overblown representation of our sphere of influence. Here is a website, with a cumulative visit count of close to 18m, which implies how many repeat visitors? Few of us have ever met another poster - this is probably the only way we know each other - and our collective influence is lower than other blogs such as Hotair, Daily Kos, et al. How does one cast that as a viable alternative to existing parties? Also note that once you remove non-British and non-Belgian posters from here, what would the resultant membership from here actually be that can contribute to anti-Islamization efforts in those 2 countries? Even if all Europeans were thrown in (and the BNP and even non-BNP opponents of Islamization in UK concede that integration into Europe has been a major cause of the creeping Islamization of all these countries), how big would they be, compared to any of these racist parties? In Austria, the Freedom Party of Jorge Haidar actually runs one of their provinces, but here @ JW, we avoid touching them with a bargepole due to their Nazi connections. Well, guess what? While we are pre-occupied with not being shunned for such unsavory associations, those unsavory associations happen to be big enough to attract at least the critical mass needed to win elections in Austrian provinces, British constituencies and elsewhere (it wasn't too long ago that LePen was the only candidate opposite Chiraq).
The only opinion about BNP and VB which really matters is whether you support putting them in jail for their views. I don't.
Posted by: Beagle
No, I suspect that many of those here who oppose allying with the BNP, and by extention, the VB (as long as they don't explicitly disown the former) aren't for jailing the BNP for their views. They simply oppose marching alongside them.

On the analogy some are making above about the alliances between the West and the Soviet Union, one can argue both ways. Actually, the West didn't initiate such an alliance - it just became a de-facto on the ground alliance once Operation Barbarossa started, and it was only a while after that that the Teheran and Yalta conferences took place, and that too, to discuss the future of Europe, rather than operational co-operation. One could even argue that such an alliance was counter-productive, since it gave the Soviets the pretext to declare war on Japan and invade Manchuria and Korea after Hiroshima, without inviting any Western opposition. OTOH, Western powers did look the other way re: the practices of the Soviets, even during the Ribbentrop-Molotov alliance.

In the past I would have skipped reading any article regarding the National Front or the British National Party as, quite frankly, I was frightened of them and what they stood for. However, as far back as the year 2000, I began to realise that Islam and Muslims were, or seemed to be, receiving an inordinate amount of generosity from the establishment and mainstream media. Quite often I would ask the question why are these people being courted and treated with such deference?

Over a prolonged period my intrigue got the better of me and I began to read about Islam and the Muslim presence within the UK and Europe. The conclusions I came to disturbed me tremendously; was I an Islamaphobic?

Soon after my 'awakening' two aircraft were flown into the twin towers, New York. A railway train was bombed in Madrid and the London underground suffered explosions and multiple deaths.Yes! I was and still am Islamaphobic. I fear Islam.

Running concurrently over this period of time, my interest in politics grew. I started to question things I had never considered previously. Mass immigration, the European Union, the Iraq war etc. I listened to the BBC and looked for their hidden agenda and bias. Being born in the 1940's, I had grown up with the notion that an Englishman had an innate sense of fair play and justice. My late interest in politics showed me I had been drifting through life with my eyes firmly shut. It was as though I had been locked away for the past thirty years. My country was now a foreign land. Snippets within the press made my blood boil. For instance the National Lottery refused any funding of the Royal National Lifeboat Institute on the basis that they (the RNLI) could provide no evidence that a proportion of lives saved were , or would be from, an ethnic minority. This is just one example of what I came to understand as 'Political Correctness'. I have since seen hundreds, if not thousands, of similar incidences. And it outrages me.

My political allegiance should be with the Labour party since I grew up in a family all of whom are 'working class'. But wasn't it New Labour that had brought about most of the changes to my country? Changes in the law that could make me a criminal just for coming to my own conclusions about a religion? Changes that will ultimately mean 5 towns the size of Birmingham will need to be built to accommodate the expected influx of foreigners to this land over the next hundred years? What sort of country will it be for my grand and great grandchildren?

So, what about the Conservatives? As an opposition I have yet to see them oppose anything. The New Labour movement have captured their clothes and, from what I can see, it matters not whether it is Labour or Conservative, I will endure the things I do not want. Nothing will change.

I then read the British National Party's web site. I was surprised to see letters printed in their 'letters page' from people who absolutely hated them. I also noted that the majority of letters were from people who appeared to be from people just like me. People who couldn't understand what had happened to their country. People who genuinely wanted to return to a sensible way of life. Discipline in schools. Punishment for the wrongdoers. An end to Political Correctness. An end to the madness of the European Union. An end to discrimination of workers because of their political beliefs. An end to 'positive discrimination'. An end to mass immigration. Promotion of our own farming industry. A concern about 'Peak Oil' and its consequences. A commitment not to intervene in other countries affairs. A military that would be for the defence of this nation and its genuine interests, not a world police force. I was taken aback. This was a party I had been afraid of and it was the party that encompassed most of what I wanted. The policies were far more than what I had been led to believe. It was not a single issue party that wanted visibly ethnic folk removed from these shores.

I then went further. Over my sixty years I have learnt not to take anything at face value. I made arrangements to attend a BNP meeting. The meeting was attended mostly by people in the upper age bracket. I was treated civilly and made welcome. A good proportion were, like me, ex-servicemen. The rest from a wide variety of backgrounds. The agenda was not outrageous and mainly on local issues. The speakers were courteous and I didn’t hear any bad language or profanities throughout the evening. Racism did not raise its head. (I would have beat a hasty retreat had it done so, my wife of the past 38 years is Greek).

Nick Griffin is often portrayed in the press as a Holocaust denier. I’m assured that this is no longer the case. People can change their views, much the same as I have. I have to accept this unless the future proves otherwise. Whatever he is he has changed the whole structure of the party.

The party today is not what it was ten or even five years ago. The obscure views of John Tyndall have been put away for ever. I confided in a colleague who found it incomprehensible that I should even consider what I did. I replied that if the party were to have sensible members or supporters the extreme elements would leave and find solace in the National Front. This appears to be the case. I was told at the meeting that I could not join if I had a criminal record for a serious crime and if an existing member is found guilty of a serious crime then membership is revoked. The days of the ‘knuckledraggers’ are well and truly past.

If the police are bracing themselves for violent clashes and there is concern for the Jewish community and other ethnic minorities I would suggest they keep a particular watch on the left-wing elements because from what I have experienced any violence will NOT come from BNP members. Certainly not from those I have met.

I am still not a member but I am a supporter. I cannot be a member because if it became known I would lose my livelihood. The cornerstones of a Democracy are the freedom of thought, freedom of speech and freedom of association. EXCEPT when that association is with the BNP then all your democratic rights are forfeited. Some Democracy this is.

Addendum: When attending the meeting we first went to one venue and then was told where the actual meeting would be held. I was confused until it was explained that if this security measure was not taken left-wing agitators would show up and cause untold mayhem.

km, cantor (hi remote!) and anyone concerned:

In light of a closer reading of the information I have, I've revised the Update. I think there are many legitimate questions that the VB needs to answer, and has not answered yet in all the volumes of material that have come out since this controversy began.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

km

Why should Charles Johnson apologize? For this?

It would also be good now for the Vlaams Belang to renounce and distinguish itself clearly from BNP-style racialism, if it indeed hopes to become a broad anti-jihad party. I hope it will do so. Robert Spencer per above

How does the presence or non-presence of the BNP at the meeting change the stances of the BNP and VB, which they have worked out independently?

Sorry about the replicate posts. Typekey froze and it and the reposts just happened.

Does anyone know why that does happen?

If the mods want to delete the extras feel free

The excusers and apologists are already at it in his comments, of course.

Posted by: km

km

It's funny to read their comments about our comments in that page. I was particularly impressed by one poster who claims that Robert understands Islam better because he was once a Muslim. ;-)

Other LGF dudes, come on over! Why let poor Storagemanager and Thanos face the music alone? The water's still nice and hot, unless of course you don't wish to share it with us, Crypto-Fascists and Racists ;-)

Gustav

Charles Johnston specifically set out to discredit the 'cities against islamification' movement by implying that it was a white supremacist event because of the involvement of the BNP.


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28639_Vlaams_Belang_Joins_with_BNP_Other_Eurofascists_in_New_Anti-Islam_Group&only

He has also used the same approach with the Blogger Lionheart. CJ was also quick to discredit the blogger Lionheart when examination of all the details in that case show him not to be a Neo fascist or race Nazi.

Alan (UK)

This is what you'll get in the bargain for supporting the BNP. The work-over of the BNP is mostly cosmetic.

Tyndall appears as a guest speaker at a meeting if I'm not mistaken, raving anti-semitic bile about the ancestry of former Tory leader Howard, and this is recent.

"Why should Charles Johnson apologize?"
"Other LGF dudes, come on over! "

Why is it necessary for LGF to out source discussion of this topic? Because the owner "knows the truth" and won't let any debate outside his dogma to occur on his site.

jrdroll

I believe that they only have certain registration windows during which newcomers can register, otherwise it's a members only club. Unlike here or Debbie Schlussel, where a Typekey account (and not being banned) is all one needs.

No, I invited them over so that instead of having a conversation behind our backs and congratulating 2 people who are participating in both forums, why don't they just come here and tell us how they really feel?

Thanos,
Is no one capable of rehabilitation? I'll say again: if you want to refuse the help of people who have the same goal you do, then be prepared for the consequences. That's all. My argument isn't so much that BNP has to be let in but that we should look at why we would refuse them and ask ourselves whether it is worth the price. We have to resist the fear about what others will say. If after looking at the situation we decide death is preferable to association with the likes of BNP that's fine. Just make sure you know that up front.
Political correctness will kill us all, if we let it. That's the danger that I see here. Our opponent has no doubts as to his goal and no qualms about the methods he will go to to achieve them. We do. Our skittishness may ensure our ultimate victory or it may land us in the dustbin of history. Are our values worth saving if it means getting down in the mud? That's what it's going to come down to.

The argument against further Islamisation for developed countries in Europe, Australasia and North America stands up well to intellectual and moral and legal scrutiny; even simple logic suggests that further exposure to Islam would, at the very least, run counter to these countries' interests.

The overwhelming body of evidence further suggests that, Saudi Arabia and its almost completely unearned wealth aside, the countries where Islam is strongest also tend to be among the poorest, most deprived and violent on the planet. In my opinion, the prime suspects for this are those charming bedfellows of medieval, patriarchal tribal culture and (with far more culpability), the religion of Islam.

I think I'm right in asserting that most on LGF, JW and a thousand other right-thinking blogs would not disagree with any of the above.

If we can agree on these things however, we must also accept that others whom we may not like may (and would be perfectly entitled to), arrive at a similar conclusion. Their views may be repugnant, but they have the same right not to wish this future upon themselves as we do.

I'm not overly keen on them either, but let's not allow this VB/BNP thing become a distraction. In this case, these people really are 'a tiny minority™'!

I don't mean this harshly as I have respect for him, but I believe Charles is becoming obsessed about it.

It really can't be any great surprise that European or American parties and individuals with a race/nationality agenda would view Islam with similar suspicion as us - but we can in my view learn to live with that fact whilst distancing ourselves from their other views.

PMK,
VB has had many opportunities to rehabilitate themselves, they choose not to do so, what's so unclear about that?
The Flemish national far right publication T'Scheldt even remarked on this, how every time it seems that the party is finally cutting ties with it's past demons that they pull a stunt to show they are still aligned with collaborators and Nazi's.

"otherwise it's a members only club(LGF)."

Yes. He banned Fjordman and Gates of Vienna because they disagreed with him. Nice chap that Chuck. Maybe buy him a copy of "Liberal Fascism".

jrdroll

I may be wrong here, but I believe the owners of GoV are not banned from LGF. Fjordman was banned because he couldn't make up his mind: after a number of exits Johnson helped him along.

Guftafs

Tyndall is dead.
The people joining and associating with the BNP today - at least the ones I have met - are on the whole decent everyday folk. The sort of people you could invite to your daughter's Christening.
They are like me sickened by the dramatic changes to the UK introduced by the Nu-Labour/Con/Lib idiots.

Robert, culture and race are not the same, this is true. However culture is a product of race. The BNP sees itself as a party to support indigenous Britons. There are groups in Australia for example that exist solely to represent Aboriginal Australians whose boards are comprised of Aboriginal Australians, yet this is not considered "racist".

The fact that various European parties seek to represent their native ethnic heritage is not racist and is not indicative of the desire to re-start the ovens. I do not believe they seek to perform "ethnic cleansing" of "the other".

The fact is, as many posters have pointed out, that Islamism and Nazism are two sides to the same coin. This has been demonstrated historically ( with the popularity of Nazism in the middle east before,during and after WWII) and more recently with neo-Nazi groups such as Aryan Nation giving unabashed support of the Jihadists or with comments from David Duke whom admired the gender segregation in Muslim countries.

Given the opposition by VB to Islam and their support of Israel it's difficult to see how they can be classified as neo-Nazi's. I do not know the BNP's stance on Israel however a party cannot be judged by it's support or not for another country when they have enough problems within their own.

In order to prevent the rise of extremist groups such as KKK or genuine neo-nazi groups in the west taking advantage of the establishment parties unwillingness to tackle the problems of Islamification, we need to, at the very least, stop throwing the "nazi" tag around and provide a credible alternative for people - just hoping this will happen Robert is not sufficient.

There is a 2 tonne pink elephant in the living room whom is not the least bit discomforted by the fleas fighting each other on its behind.

Guftafs

Tyndall is dead. And emphasising your point by use of the BBC (British Biased Corporation) is silly.
The people joining and associating with the BNP today - at least the ones I have met - are on the whole decent everyday folk. The sort of people you could invite to your daughter's Christening.
They are like me sickened by the dramatic changes to the UK introduced by the Nu-Labour/Con/Lib idiots.

Guftafs

Tyndall is dead. And emphasising your point by use of the BBC (British Biased Corporation) is silly.
The people joining and associating with the BNP today - at least the ones I have met - are on the whole decent everyday folk. The sort of people you could invite to your daughter's Christening.
They are like me sickened by the dramatic changes to the UK introduced by the Nu-Labour/Con/Lib idiots.

The problem with the owner of LGF is that he doesn't look in his own backyard in regard to racism. The Democratic party was the party of the Klu Klux Klan:

Newspapers called the convention a "Klanbake," as pro-Klan and anti-Klan delegates wrangled bitterly over the party platform. The convention opened on a Monday and by Thursday night, after 61 ballots, the convention was deadlocked. The next day, July 4, some 20,000 Klan supporters wearing white hoods and robes held a picnic in New Jersey. One speaker denounced the "clownvention in Jew York." They threw baseballs at an effigy of Al Smith. A cross-burning culminated the event.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=451

The leading Democratic Senator Robert Byrd D WVA is a former Klansman. The Democratic Party in the US is a racist party. But, our LGF friends have no problem with it or its history. So this to do with BNP pales with the blindness of Charles Johnson to what occurs in the United States with the Democratic party.

Alan (UK)

So, Tyndall died 2005. So he must've spoken at a BNP meeting prior to his death in 2005. (about half into the video. He got a good round of applause too, he did.) I would still classify it as "recent" if it was this side of 2000.

And, yes, I do not disagree with you that the bulk of the supporters are more or less decent folk. How does that change what I said that any changes of the BNP are mostly cosmetic and that the core of their old, fascist/racist ideology remains?

I apologise for the multiple postings.

Thanos,
A house divided against itself cannot stand.

Guftafs

I know there is currently a struggle within the BNP. The hardliners are being exposed and shown the door! As I said in my original post, the more decent folk join the party will change for the better.
It is almost a parallel to the beginnings of the Labour Party as described in "The Ragged Trousered Philanthrapists".

Guftafs

I know there is currently a struggle within the BNP. The hardliners are being exposed and shown the door! As I said in my original post, the more decent folk join the party will change for the better.
It is almost a parallel to the beginnings of the Labour Party as described in "The Ragged Trousered Philanthrapists".

Alan (UK)

... for crying out loud, that's why the BNP is trying so hard to appear normal: to attract normal people.

And as to your dismissing the BBC documentary. You need to point to concrete evidence of misrepresentation, or your dismissal won't hold.

For example: Reuters faking photos from the Lebanon-Israeli war some years ago. That's bias. Or the phrasing when reporting about Palestinian murderous activities and Israeli retaliation.

"otherwise it's a members only club(LGF)."
Yes. He banned Fjordman and Gates of Vienna because they disagreed with him. Nice chap that Chuck. Maybe buy him a copy of "Liberal Fascism".

Posted by: jrdroll at January 20, 2008 5:11 PM

Have to agree with you there, I got banned on thursday for trying to post the following in his new spinoff link feature.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=28639_Vlaams_Belang_Joins_with_BNP_Other_Eurofascists_in_New_Anti-Islam_Group&only

with the following title.

'LGF surrenders as the resistance begins in Europe'

I want my banned from LGF T-shirt:)

The Gremlins have really got to my posting. Once again apologies.

I would like to respectfully suggest that this is the wrong way to look at the BNP (I am an American, not a member of the BNP). The BNP is a British political party, just as VB is a Flemish political party. If it suits their political purposes to organize in a particular fashion, then I think that is their business.

I see no reason why they cannot be welcomed into the anti-jihad work because of this. The anti-jihad effort needs all the support it can get, and it is foolish to reject people who support the goal because we don't like some part of their organizational structure. They have done nothing wrong, and they do want to accomplish the same ends with respect to the anti-jihad that the rest of us do. Why try to turn them away or criticize them? Did they say that they would not support the anti-jihad if there were people involved who were not eligible for membership in their organization? Until they do that, they should be welcomed with open arms.

Time is not on our side. That is why the option of waiting, however long it takes, for a leader-- pure of heart-- to gallop onto the world stage or for a similar “good” organization to appear or evolve, is going to result in our defeat.

Unfortunately--and to our everlasting discredit in the West--the forces of the Jihad have already, in one way or another, captured a majority, I would say, of “the instruments of state power” and coercion in Europe and political correctness and multiculturalism have done their complimentary “long march through the culture” too, with the result that many in the academy, law enforcement, the judiciary and the news media have been for a long time and are today doing the softening up work for the Jihad. Post-modern, post-Christian Europe has a new catalog of invectives and taboos and, increasingly, laws and regulations too, all applied to any native European who dares to assert his right to live in his country as a free man, to speak his piece and to not be overwhelmed by inassimilable Muslim “immigrants” and “asylum seekers” whose tenacity in holding on to the public teat to drain it is exceeded only by their talent for instant and very profitable outrage and their guile in manipulating all the instruments of “legal” coercion and subversion a modern democratic state places at their disposal.

If there are better, more moral and upright alternatives out there, people or organizations who have some political power or a good chance to acquire it and who have the guts to play against a quite comprehensively stacked deck, please point them out to me. The BNP, in particular, from what I saw on their web site a few months ago, is a very disciplined party—reminds me of Communist Party discipline as a matter of fact--and can be almost guaranteed to try to seize control of any movement it is involved in; this is the price you pay when you have dropped the ball and have few options left. It is far too late, it seems to me, to be choosy about which groups Europeans who wish to remain free ally with; consider it that time honored device, a marriage of convenience but, one in which you have to be constantly wary of your new mate stabbing you in the back or poisoning your tea; the BNP tries to use the anti-Islamization movement, the anti-Islamization movement tries to use the BNP.

One way or the other the anti-Islamization movement, it seems to me, will have to turn to communist type “united front” tactics if it ever hopes to assemble enough power to beat back the tide of Islamization and the Jihad and that means holding its nose and allying with a lot of people you would not want to invite home to dinner. Bad, yes, but, consider the alternative if Islam wins.

Anybody else also got this haunting suspicion of some little green parrots flying around somehow, somewhere ;-)?

Why all this talk about 'broad anti-jihadist movements'? I'd rather see real, actual movement against the sell-out of civilization by our [EU] socialist and 'progressive christian' elites. Effective movement that is, and that doesn't necessarily mean 'the' movement should be broad. Broad Movement-Talk (BMT) i.m.h.o. carries with it the risk of inviting the managerial types like Mr Gash, who have brilliantly succeeded at showing a great interest for 'the movement' but a little less concern for actual people. For instance when those SIOE sympathizers were brutally arrested by the Thielemans Thugs from Liège & jailed in Brussels 9/11/2007. Only when they were taken to task on their appalling negligence, they paid attention to it on their site.

I also wonder why a small article in an Australian newspaper from 'our correspondentS' (group-journalism?) should be taken more or less at face-value? Are they the usual experts to round up when Belgian political parties are concerned? And the update of which Mr. Spencer on second thought is also not entirely convinced? Why not ask "your man in Flanders" instead of a journo from Down-Under? One that at least understands the political/cultural situation in Belgium (needed to understand what Vlaams Belang stands for, and to prevent statements about this secessionist party that should try to aspire to be an anti-jihadist movement). Why not ask the chairman of Vlaams Belang himself if the Aussie-rumour was true that the BNP was present at this "Cities against islamization" eh.. happening?

Kind regards from Amsterdam,
Sagunto

Young Collett is still in the BNP. (This one's from Channel 4's Dispatches series. Don't know what you feel about them. Still, Collett says what he says.)

The message from the splinter group Voice of Change doesn't differ substantially from that of the BNP from what I can tell. Looks like infighting to me.

Gufstafs

I would argue that any British political party that espoused or encouraged hateful objectives would soon see decent members leaving in droves. The fact that the BNP is increasing its membership (with decent people) speaks for itself?
As for the BBC with their recent track record, if they told me it was raining I would go outside to check. They even lie to children. Search for the naming of the Blue Peter Cat!

Lizards who see this...a question:

Is the leadership of Republican Party in the U.S. just as bigoted as the leadership of Vlaams Belang?

I know it sounds like a crazy question, but think on it for a few minuets.

The leadership of the GOP leadership supports:

The Saudi Arabian Government, which we know supports Islamic aggression all around the world. SA supports bigoted laws toward women and non-muslims. SA supports cruel and unusual punishment and is against the god given right of free speech.


In this spirit of fighting evil...

I would also like to suggest that George W. Bush and the Republican leadership (The party of my ancestors) renounce the bigotry of Saudi Arabia toward women, Christians, Jews, Hindus and any other non-muslim, if it has any hope of being the anti-jihad party. This association with such a bigoted and cruel entity will smear the GOP. I hope they all see the error of their ways. There is no excuse for allying with bigotry, even for cheap oil and business deals!

After all, a picture says a thousand words…

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/01/images/20080115_p011508cg-0605-515h.html

He might as well be sitting next to KKK member…(and yes I know the Dems are no different, I don’t mention them because they have no hope for reform).

What is worse? A semi-racist euro or a confused Republican who maybe has sold out his country? Who will reform faster and give up their evil ways first?

Questions to ponder...lizards...

(Disclaimer for LGF people: I do not support VB, BNP or any other party who supports possible racism, bigotry, etc. I am not a democrat. I am not a liberal. I am not a Moby. I do not have BDS. I am not a progressive liberal. I was not at anytime a Koskidz.)

Thanos wrote:

"VB has had many opportunities to rehabilitate themselves, they choose not to do so, what's so unclear about that?"

"Rehabilitate" according to whose standards? The mere slinging of mud, or slapping on of PC labels ("racist", "bigot", "fascist") does not suffice to establish reasonable standards.

Again, the following two detailed arguments demonstrate to my satisfaction that critics of the VB are prejudicially labelling, not cogently articulating critiques.

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/11/12/the-european-foreign-policy-of-charles-johnson/

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/10/31/facts-part-3-belgium-3-cases-in-orwellian-justice/

If I see a cogent counter-argument to both of the above essays, then I will begin to entertain grounds for suspicion of the VB.

We've seen these same circular arguments and discussions over and over again. It's not my house PMK, it's one I refuse to enter.

It starts with denial, then it goes to well they really aren't that bad, and then it goes to well any ally in the fight is ok, we allied with Stalin...

The rest is quibbling and distraction. Sorry, unless you have a new main argument you've failed to cancel my reservations, and I don't think you've done well in canceling anyone else's.

Frank,

what I'm saying is the 'racism' thing doesn't scare us, it shouldn't scare us at all.

And yet, the race-thing is the bogeyman that scares the hell out of everyone because we're so indoctrinated and conditioned. Its almost as if white people had agreed that their final destination lies in their obligation to vanish from the globe. Does that have to be our destiny because we're afraid to be called 'racist?'

When you see what's going down in the US, race-hustlers like Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton et al, Farraklowns & co., the cultivation of 'black culture' that just so happens to not include whites, then I'm saying that Europe's indigenous peoples have a right to say 'no we don't want that'- and that is what Fjordman is saying, Brussels Journal, Gates of Vienna etc.

But anyhow, this is just a secondary problem. We need to concentrate on the jihad. Islamization is the key word.

CJ from LGF and his army of hysterical sycophants have already discredited themselves multiple times, not only that none of them offers any solutions, but Charles boots you off if you dissent. The whole LGF thing is about a bunch of 'lizard army' veterans making snide remarks in a posting frenzy, but none of these cyber jockeys will ever do a thing about the global jihad.

Our allies are those who actually do something about it.

KM

I keep a list at my blog.
Add your story please.
Welcome to the club.

We can't keep the shirts in stock they go so quick. More on order though.
I think I see a season of high demand coming.
Act quickly.

Henrik, the Italian fascist party also had Jewish fascist members right up until the Third Reich marched into Italy. Fascism has many flaws however one of isn't racism or anti-semitism - the latter in particular is not an inherent trait of fascism no matter how many times it is repeated. One of the greatest flaws of fascism is of course the idea of the entire state revolves around a charismatic leader. I saw a quote ( cannot remember where ) that Mussolini said he didn't believe in the idea of "race", however that was probably easier to say in early 20th century Italy then early 21st century Italy - he was also a communist before becoming fascist, as were most prominent fascists at the time. Mosley for example was a leading figure in the British Labor party.

Your other point on the need of a "continuing crises" is good to. If you look at the economies of fascist Italy and Germany at the time, they embarked on a number programs that were expressly short term and were relatively successful, however they would never have survived in the long term, lacking as they did, the long term planning that underpins most modern economies.

How effective is VB? In all their years they have yet to pass one law. In all their years they have postured a lot, and accomplished nothing, nada, zip, zilch. They are isolated and ineffective by choice.

They have fewer voters than Ron Paul or Dennis Kucinich if you need a measure. Their stronghold is Antwerp, where their sole real accomplishment was to get the Dutch "Don't buy Jewish" stickers from appearing on merchant's windows around 2000.
Their affiliate Voorpost just north in the Netherlands is all for die Jodenhaat however.
They are great at posing weak & on effect. They diminish causes they join.

Alan (UK)

I usually can't watch BBC newscast five minutes straight before I spot something wrong, outrageous, completely irrelevant and promptly switch channels. And don't get me started on the Breakfast BBC ...

Still, you haven't provided any concrete evidence as to why we should discount their documentary. Please do. You're saying that's not Tyndall in the video? The BBC's done some editing? Or hired an actor? Or staged the whole thing? Or infiltrated the BNP locally? (As you can see, I'm running out of plausible or even remotely sane ideas here, so please, help us out.)

Vox populi vox dei is wrong. I don't care if the rest of Britain align themselves with the BNP. It's wrong, and they're wrong to do it, it's not the British thing to do in the original sense of the word. It's yet another symptom that the original Western values have been eroded to the point where the 'natives' as it were have lost the ability to defend them.

Thanos

"How effective is VB? In all their years they have yet to pass one law. In all their years they have postured a lot, and accomplished nothing, nada, zip, zilch. They are isolated and ineffective by choice."

If you are right, then why does LGF spend so much time on it? For all the time LGF spends on this subject they spend very little time on the sell out of the GOP to the ROP.

What is more dangerous a little party from Belgium with a semi-racist past or an American President kissing Arabian ass?

"They diminish causes they join."

Yep...took the words right out my mouth.

This article you are commenting under is not at LGF comet, try to think multiplexually please.

Neither are my articles. Neither are all the other articles.

Why spend the time? Because it's an important thing to remain effective.

Thanos,
What are you looking to accomplish - a fight against jihad? It won't happen if you're too busy judging everyone who has the same goal you do. If you don't want to be associated with people who don't live up to your ideals, fine.

WHY is race the overriding issue? Has the BNP said that no one but native Britons should be allowed to live in Britain? I haven't heard that. Maybe you can enlighten me. Have they said that someone who doesn't belong to the Church of England has no right to set foot in London? Of course not. But that's what you see in Islam.

Aren't there things on which we can agree to disagree, in order to accomplish a larger goal?

WHY does nothing else have any validity?
The people who started this war are the bigots. They're the ones who think no one who believes differently than they has any right to live, except as a slave to them. They were welcomed in Britain, France, Spain, all over Europe. What have they done in response? Their home countries don't give a non-Muslim one percent of what Britons have given Muslim immigrants.

Call my arguments whatever you like. All I see from you is moralizing. I'm looking for a reason that the people in BNP have no right to be heard or defended. Labour and the Tories are too busy pandering to the immigrants and removing all responsibility for assimilation from them. The same is happening here in the US.

If you are right, then why does LGF spend so much time on it? For all the time LGF spends on this subject they spend very little time on the sell out of the GOP to the ROP.

So very true, I cant say I see DeWinter throwing Israel to the wolves the way the GOP just has.

USorThem

I have posted to your site.

PMK, if you agree with our enemies that race is the issue, then you are fighting on their ground. That has unintended consequences.

One example:
Banning the wearing of scarves -- sounds like a good thing to many of these organizations, but the scarve's the symbol and sypmtom, not the problem. So ban the scarf, then you find that nun's habits are verboten too. Yarmulkes are verboten... etc. The leftists and statists then secretly love you because you've helped their efforts to suppress freedoms, and created another victimization cause for them to pander to voters with.

You can't fight repression by being repressive, and that's the simplex tactic the racialist groups always grasp. It's a big way to fail.

LGF spends so much time bashing VB because Charles Johnson believes he has discovered something profound. He's inspired by a known obscure leftwing blogger Øivind Strømmen, who specializes in slandering Vlaams Belang.

Unfortunately, Charles has banned those people from LGF, most notably Fjordman, who disagrees with his view of things. Thus Charles can go on forever about it on LGF and harvest applause from the 'lizard army' while we Europeans shake our heads over the sillyness.

It'll probably go on like this for a while.

Henrik, you are propagating a lie and I am calling you on it. LGF was posting against VB before Charles Johnson knew Stromind existed, please go back and look at the October posts right after the anti-Jihad meeting in Europe.

Oh, I forgot to mention some perhaps useful info for this topic, it being sort of a reprise of the anti-VB 'discussion' between the well-informed John Charleston of little green baboons and the outstanding blogger Fjordman ;-)

The little green inquisitor has his trustworthy news-sources concerning Vlaams Belang, one in Norway, i.e. the renowned "anti"-fascist Oyvind Strommen and his Belgian friend (and source) Mr. Marc Spruyt founder of "anti"-fascist org. "Blokwatch". He is also the founder of several internat. anarchist orgs, like the black clad AFA-gang (Anti-Fascist Action) in the Netherlands for instance and quite a few in Scandinavia. The anti-fascist action against 4 members of the SIOE in Copenhagen? Friends of these 2 fine and civilized gentlemen.

Taking info from these sources is setting a firm first step on a very slippery green slope. Was it Winston Churchill (Henry Morgenthau) who said: “the new fascists will call themselves anti-fascists”?

Sag.

Thanos

I read the comments at LGF. They are all getting fired up around the old lizard bonfire..

I am thinking strategically!

If I posted that on LGF, I might get cyber lynched with jazzy comebacks and silly one one-liners. What would be the point?

"Why spend the time? Because it's an important thing to remain effective."

I would ask the same thing....

As readers can ably see, there is a lot of ad hominem as opposed to refutation going on here. If you can't dispute the truth and reality, attack the messenger then rinse and repeat often. This is the same tactic the Clinton political machine uses.

I posted links to two damning articles above that I wrote - can any of the people here from GoV and CVF here dispute them?

As readers can ably see, there is a lot of ad hominem as opposed to refutation going on here. If you can't dispute the truth and reality, attack the messenger then rinse and repeat often. This is the same tactic the Clinton political machine uses.

I posted links to two damning articles above that I wrote - can any of the people here from GoV and CVF here dispute them?

These typical ad hominem attacks on the sources of information on VB merely betray how devoid of content the defence of VB is. "Renowned 'anti'-fascist", although not a positive affiliation in my view, is not an argument.

As to Fjordman, all that there is to say about him, is that he is a self-confessed racist.

Wouldn't lean to heavily on his 'prestige', but then again, that's just me.

Thanos wrote:
"Henrik, you are propagating a lie and I am calling you on it."

That's libel. Yuck.

I didn't say that Strømmen got Johnson started on this. As far as I know, it was actually a post at AtlasShrugs that ticked him off initially, and triggered Charles' quest for evidence to throw at VB. That, in turn, lead him to Strømmen, who stockpiles obscure images and accusations.

For those interested, Center for Vigilant Freedom has posted heaps of refutations of the slurs thrown around by Johnson. Who in turn has refused to acknowledge the validity of even the most obvious of the documentation presented, still propagating his claim that nobody is tackling the 'proofs' he presents. Christine of CVF has done a Herculean job of examining variations of the Flemish flags etc. in the process. You may want to go there to check out the details.

Or you may want to focus on more mainstream counterJihad activities. Freedom of choice :)

Henrik

In the name of objectivity you should also mention that the information in the links have been outdated. Here is a point-by-point refutation by notorious anti-fascist Strommen. So, I'd have to agree with Thanos that you are not entirely truthful at this moment. (to pre-empt your answer, "anti-fascist" is not an argument either way. Adress the facts.)

Saying you've refuted things like Le Pen, Van Hecke, and Dewinter posing for a photo op together last May at Holocaust denier Karel Dillen's funeral does not negate the fact that it happened Henrik. The funeral still happened, they all met there, they all paid their respects to Dillen together.

Here's a Dillen quote:

”The Flemish nationalists are the heirs of the collaborators of 1940-1945″

This is why they still lay wreaths for LeClerq as well. It's why their version of the "Nakba" was when the collaborators fled. It's why their youth publications pimp stories about how their grandma's head was shaved because she was a collaborator. Like the Palestinians, VB has their own grievance theater and agitprop they teach their youths where the good becomes the bad and the bad becomes the good.

What refutation could there be?

guftafs, I had not seen that. I've no interst in fascism, nor do my free-market, individual-liberty friends in Vlaams Belang.

Rather than reading obscure details by self-proclaimed 'anti-fascists', I suggest to read up on fascism itself. Here's Daniel Pipes pointing out what many have said: That fascism is essential a variation of socialism, with the same roots as, not just similarities to, Soviet Communism.

When debating fascism, and in particular charging others for having fascist sympathies, it is imperative to know in detail what fascism really is. That takes some digging into European history and can be somewhat tedious. But it is uniquely enabling to ascertain if a given ideology or political party has fascist leanings or not - much better than quarreling over the exact interpretations of obscure symbols.

You don't defend Civilization, and its accumulated decencies and the hard-won wisdom of millenia, by throwing your lot in with short-sighted - if muscular- simpletons... and expect to gain anything but these internal yobs gaining power once the external threat is defeated.

The time is now to stand up strongly for the best of our cultural heritage, not cede any advantages to its lurking thugs.

The Mob offers the same "protection" racket - on the same basis as Islam, or these "ethnicists":

"I'll defend you... ultimately from myself... if you pay me."

The price is your freedom.

We need to stand for the individual's inherent rights, and not for the power of any collective or group or party, however desperate the time's seem to be becoming.

Panic is a bad guide.

And cunning opportunists are always waiting to exploit chaos for their own power advantage, whether the Reichstag fire or an economic crisis is the method and excuse they use.

Alliances, now, need to be among those who stand for the accomplishments of our Civilization.

And who reject all lures to use despots to try to defeat other despots.

Free men and women are the best to defend freedom.

Not those who enslave themselves to any tyannical and consticting belief, whether racial, religious, ethnic or nationalistic.

We fight for individual freedom, not someone's else power.

Henrik

Not sure what your point is by referring to Pipes. Pipes is right, the theoretical underpinnings of both fascism and communism can be traced back to German intellectuals of the early 19th century. Does Pipes point in some way defeat the views presented by Strommen? Don't see how.

I've watched your arguments in the comments here and I wonder how serious you are on these issues. The core ideas of VB will violate individual rights. You merely evade this. You profess ignorance or indifference to fascism when this together with racism is at the core of the problem with VB. You're leaving unanswered the point raised that you are untruthful about your reference to CVF being a definitive refutation of charges made against the VB. These are just the ones I've spotted by following your thread with me. The standard technique seems to be "when caught, shift, parry and change the subject." It's a time-honoured technique, although not a very good one.

Good night.

I concur wholeheartedly with Alan(UK). Your experiences are a lot like mine except that my eyes have been opened a little earlier in life than yourself.

Guftafs, it would be foolish to deny that there were still some 'racists' in the BNP, however I don't think there are as many as you may think. One Searchlight inspired smear job by the far left BBC is hardly convincing.

Don't confuse love of one's own culture and way of life with hatred of all others. I could debate this issue with you for hours but there isn't the space to do so. I once asked an Indian why you never (or rarely) saw mixed race marriages involving Indians and Afrocaribbeans. He replied that an Indian male would never marry anyone other than another Indian and that no Indian family would let their daughter marry a 'black man'. Go to Blink.org, a government funded organisation representing the Afrocaribbean community and you won't have to look far for what borders on a form of black supremicism. The last article I managed to stomach was openly celebrating the impending day when the native (white) English would be a minority in Leicester (an English city of around 300,000). The point being that 'racism' is fairly common. Remember that the only person it's legal to discriminate against in the UK is me and others like me ie British (generally meaning English) and white (or fair skinned as I ilke to think of myself).

I won't join the BNP because I still harbour some doubts about some of them. Mark Collet in particular. That said I judge them on their policies (which aren't racist, which remember is illegal unless you're a native) and for that reason I'll vote for them at the next opportunity because they are the only option at present. At the very least the level of support will force the other parties to engage in the problems of immigration and yes, Islam. The alternative is the extremism of the Labour party who have overseen massive levels of unwanted and unnecessary immigration, and the consequent destruction of communities such as my own, without any mandate or debate. They are the real extremists and the ones I fear the most. The Labour party is full of ex-communists, Marxists and other assorted far leftists. Jack Straw, fomer Home and Foreign secretary and an ex communist himself, has written about his admiration for Stalin.

On an earlier comment I noticed someone saying that an alliance with the BNP would hamper alliances with others such as Sikhs and Hindus. Perhaps this video would allay those fears.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=5313967073906592014&q=singh+bnp&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

The BNP will continue top attract the likes of myself and Alan(UK) because we have nowhere else to go. In the process the hardline elements, hopefully, will get sidelined. If it isn't the BNP then a party very similar will fill the gap because more and more of us despair at what's happening to our country. I'm sure the BNP are perfectly happy to be ignored by the likes of Jihadwatch (who I greatly admire I might add) but when the chips are down you just might be happy they are around. The vast majority are not the monsters you fear.

The chips are down. We are fighting in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the strait of Hormuz. We are fighting off the horn of Africa on the high seas. Thailand is fighting in Pattani Province, Indonesia in the southern Islands, Pakistan in their frontiers, Yemen in their north, and numerous other places. Since the chips are down, what help is BNP sending?

A:
They aren't. BNP is anti war because it's the opportunistic populist stance now.

Thanos,

What do you think of Barak Obama's church:

About Us

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.
http://www.tucc.org/about.htm

Is he a racialist? LGF'ers?

"Not sure what your point is by referring to Pipes."

My point is to add some knowledge about what 'fascism' really means, in order to get above the level of mud-slinging. Stalin started that tradition (using 'fascism' as a slur) and it's just confusing matters.

OK?

For the VB, it's instructive to investigate what their party program is. I believe their most important issues are, in order:

1) Dissolve Belgium. That's their Reason d'etre.
2) Do away with the rampant welfarism that is entrenched in Belgium.
3) Deal with immigration and political Islam.

Take particular note of issue (2) on this list. This is explicitly an anti-fascist platform. Fascist states live and breathe by citizens leaving power to the state and some Great Leader, based on the promise that this will solve every possible problem under the sun. Vlaams Belang explictly has the opposite political platform, and would be torn apart by their voters if they suddenly turned around.

As for the particulars of any photo or whatever, I can't comment in detail, I'm not qualified. I saw enough attempted shots solidly refused to stop bothering and get on with my life. The diligence in pursuing this is amazing, and I hope you are hunting down real Islamists with at least as much fevor. That'd bring us great benefit.

The fact that I'm not able to explain every photo, every flag and every detail brought forth by Strømmen and Johnson is no definite proof that VB are evil. In no way. It just means that if you really want to pursue this matter, I suggest you book a flight to Europe and conduct interviews with the relevant persons.

Finally, let me quote Robert. In Brussels, he warned against "the narcicism of small differences". I think this is good advice.

This leftist dogmatism of total acceptance or being labled a "bigot" or "intolerant", is the key strength of bad multi-cultural ideas. It strengthens both the racist/supremacist and the Islamist, as they are cut from the same exclusionary cloth.
Hate groups are EMPOWERED by a society who fears to confront uncomfortable social truths. Truths like honor killings, suicide attacks, anti-Jewish sentiment and Imams who encourage this crap.
By accepting the idocy of multi-culti dogma, they must act as if a Christian form Nottingham is the same as a Hebrew hating anti-Zionist loser.
Thats the great irony for me. White supremacists and Islamists have historically shared this hatred of Jews.
What gives today that the white hate groups no longer reach accross the aisle to their like-minded Jihadist brethren?
I think the lack of cultural identity has poisoned the minds of too many Europeans.
Every government will fail against Islamism. It is up to the individuals of each nation to challenge their Islamic brethren to assimilate.
If they do not, they will be the ones assimilating.

The good ship "Principles" rides the merry waves again and will last as long as did the Mary Tudor.

Being on the ship is akin to being a christian in post fire Rome: you will look good but you will still die and unlike then, so will your legacies to the world.

Interesting to see just how much the pragmatism of reality has struck the many posters above.
Two years ago an identical discussion was almost overwhelmed by the "tut tuts" of the moral, if sadly unrealistic, majority here.

We all have a level of patience within ourselves and islam and Muslims(in general..not all but most) have passed mine quite some time ago. I see nothing but all out war as the only choice. Can anyone see any other choice?

Any white westerners here visit or work in Japan? The Japanese think you are of an inferior race. They know that they are superiour. They are more racist than most people on earth (and with much more reason to be than the Arabs). Does it stop them being polite, helpful and good to work with? No, it doesn't.

Racism of itself is a non-problem. Working with racist people, if it helps your situation, is a non-issue.

JDroll: What do you think of VB since that's the topic?
Here's some information about them:

The US political left is already aware of Vlaams Belang and salivating over the idea of tying them to conservative groups during election season ‘08. Here you can see two think-tank pieces on them from last April; both well prior to the current brouhaha, and before the anti-jihad meeting was close to happening. You can also see them trying to diminish the Minutemen by comparison to VB.
Vlaams Belang’s Current Manifesto is furtherance of Identity or group/tribal politics, a policy that would create a lesser version of “Flemish Apartheid” if acted upon. (Ask yourself : Who defines “Flemish Habit?” after reading the manifesto; note that it has many fine sounding goals, but they are coupled with contradictions to those goals - Liberty for the Flemish, but not others as one example.)
Racist statements and strategies - Political slogans like ”Eigen Volk Veerst”(our folk first,) “Vlaams Kracht” (Flemish Power,) “White Europe” Speech by DeWinter, backed up by his statements in the recent Shire News podcast, the 70-Point plan, etc.
Support from a multitude of white power groups on both sides of the ocean - you find many news articles on Vlaams Belang at most white nationalist sites, along with discussion and support for them in the forums. Voorpost demonstrations are regularly posted in Stormfront forums.
You also find posters and connections to some of these extreme groups at Voorpost offices.
Links to white nationlist organizations from sub-affiliate group websites (Voorpost, VMO, NSV, VBJ etc.)
Claes from VB spoke at Voorpost this year as well.
Advertisment for extreme group rallies & operations in their magazines (Voorpost, NSV, NjSV)
Odal signs (Nazi Runes) in the VB party magazines
Odal signs in the VB youth magazines
Cartoon rats in their Youth magazines wearing white power symbols
Songbooks in their youth organization with White power symbols and nazi runes on their covers
Their leaders march and appear often at rallies with extreme groups including VJW, Voorpost, NSV, NjSV and at some VB rallies these groups have shown up with White power flags. While it’s not VB carrying the flag, they don’t chase the ones with them off either.
Their leaders attend Ijzerwake annually, where wreaths are laid commemorating Nazi collaborators such as Staff LeClerq, Borms, Cyriel Verschaeve, and Irma Laplasse, and they actively observe those ceremonies led by the Vlaams Nationalisch Jongeren, this happened again in August 2007. (VNJ — marching band of kids in Lederhosen)
They were founded by a Holocaust denier (Karel Dillen)
Their founder, Karel Dillen, translated Maurice Bardeche’s “Nuremberg the Promised Land” - a holocaust denial book, diatribe against the Nuremberg trials, and a call for a Nationalist-Fascist state paradigm for all of Europe, as opposed to democracy and the Marshall plan. The political philosophy in this book closely matches much of that found in the strategem, political direction, and tenets of Vlaams Belang. Maurice Bardeche could be called the father of Neo-Fascism.
Filip Dewinter was President of NjSV, the school division of NSV, the group’s publication printed anti-semitic articles while he was president.
Some of their leaders were in Vlaamse Militant Orde, an outlawed private militia responsible for terror-like activities and ghoulish operations to transplant the corpses of Nazi-Collaborators to graves in Flemish soil. It’s VMO you see in the now famous video that Babba Zee and Gambini have translated and shown. You can see the “Operations and Acties” on VMO’s own site here. Do follow some of the links in the left sidebar.
Their leaders attended St. Maartensfonds regularly until they were canceled in 2006, these gatherings were to commemorate and celebrate the Oostridjers, or Flemish SS brigade and to gather donations for support of those exiled in Argentina and other countries as well as their families.
They associate and make politcal appearances with holocaust deniers, as recently as this May LePen of France’s FN was invited to the funeral of their founder, Karel Dillen, both Vanhecke and Dewinter posed for photos with him.
They visit the other extreme-right nationalist party groups with their youth groups and trade guest speakers regularly (Alsacian independence group leader fond of Front National spoke at the VB Antwerp youth group in September.)
Their EU parliament members were part of the Identity, Tradition, Sovereignity group in the EU parliament until that group fell apart over prejudiced bickering between the far-right extreme parties. This group included Alessandra Mussolini, and other known fascists and anti-semites.
White power signs on their leader’s bookshelves and office flags.
A sheathed dagger and helmet on their leader’s bookshelves (VMO Gear? ”Nostalgie” Gear? As far as I know Filip Dewinter did not serve in the Belgian Army.)
The Seventy-point plan; an anti-immigration plan that amounts to Flemish Apartheid also in their leader’s bookshelf, this is nearly identical to the Front Natcionale plan, which is a clone of South African Apartheid policy.
A signed photo of holocaust denier Le Pen on their DeWinter’s bookshelf
A biography of their founder, Holocaust denying Karel Dillen, recently re-released and updated, titled from a famous Nazi poem by Wies Moen. The title alludes to a line from a Wies Moens poem, roughly translated “Rather a wolf in the forest than a fat dog on a chain.” The title: ”Liever Wolf in Het Bos”.
Youth camps where VB leaders teach the jongeren (youth) politics of nationalism. These camps are held in other countries with other nationalist movements, and they are taught about the other far right splinter nationalist movements while there. Recent trips include Catalonia and Wales is coming up I believe.
Filip Dewinter has called for a white Europe in speeches.
Filip Dewinter states there is no difference between Vlaams Blok and Vlaams Belang (”Vlaams Belang is Vlaams Blok”, at the upcoming 30 year celebration they will serve champage with labels that have Vlaams Blok /Belang on them.)
Recent and past associations with holocaust deniers (le Pen, Legrelle, etc.)
Calls for amnesty for nazi war collaborators, and party platform and propaganda for amnesty.
Publications that play up post-war grievances from the collaborators.
Ethnicity-Based crime studies by Gerolf Annemans
Founding, and continuing underlying associations and support for groups that make up the backbone of tribal supremacism and the splinter Euro nationalist movements, (Voorpost, BNP, FN, Alsace d’abord, etc.)
Video of party leaders attempting to lay flowers on graves of SS at Lomel
The estate of the St Maartenfonds will pass to the Vlaams National Jongeren (VNJ) youth group that performs at Ijzerwake and Zangerfeest celebrations, their symbol, the nordic gull
The VNJ symbol is the Nordic
Berkenkruis, the publication of the St Maartensfonds association, stopped publication in 2006, and the last of the official Martensfonds get-togethers was then. The magazine carried articles about Langermarck SS division, and was a fund raising vehicle for exiled Nazis and collaborators.
You can’t trust Vlaams Belang’s word - they broke it with SIOE at the Brussells 9/11 Demonstration by marching with Flemish nationalist flags; the Danes also showed with small hand flags, but put them away when requested. VB in contrast took over the show, changed the march, and by political theater took the media focus.
They will force their way to center stage at every event, as demonstrated at the old Ijzerbedevaart, where they staged intramural riots for control, and had the VNJ blow whistles and horns whenever someone else was on stage that they didn’t like in succeeding years. They eventually moved the old commitee out due to the the attempt to de-radicalise the event and take it to the original form of commemorating the fallen of WWI, when VB and VNJ wanted it to be about WWII as well. They succeeded, and changed it from Ijzerbedvaart to Ijzerwake. Within two years posters of collaborators were memorialized there.
Publication of many far right magazines and tracts over the years, some with overt anti-semitism and articles supportive of anti-semites. (Revolte, Berkenkruis, etc.)

Thanos, perhaps you should go to The Daily Kos?

Bottehound, how you doing?

Henrik, do you have anything to refute the facts or are you just here to call names?

I think Brett just summed up the whole apologist argument -- a paraphrase:

"Since some people are racist, it's ok for us to be racist, and allying with racists is ok too if it serves your ends. "

I knew we'd get to the nut of it all if I hung out long enough, time well spent.

This is typical "the ends justify the means" rationalization that evil always uses.

"CJ was also quick to discredit the blogger Lionheart when examination of all the details in that case show him not to be a Neo fascist or race Nazi." Posted by: km

That's interesting since Paul Ray himself has said that he doesn't know the exact nature of the police case against him. So how could all of the details have been examined by anyone?

No one knows what blog posts were quoted in the charges against Mr. Ray. Until I can read them myself, why should I make an assumption that he is being persecuted for being an anti-jihadi blogger? Maybe he is; maybe he isn't.

Is Mr. Ray going to suggest that I deserve to be shot like a Nazi traitor (as he said of Charles Johnson) because I reserve the right to make up my own mind and will not automatically assume that he's a martyr to the cause just because he says so?

There are too many inconsistencies in Paul Ray's story. It may be that he is telling the truth but his lawyers can't be very good if, as Mr. Ray said in an interview, they are unable to get his police file, since the police department's website states that, according to the law, all he has to do is fill out a form and submit 10 pounds and the police have to give him a copy of everything in his file. I'll tell you something and I won't even charge 10 pounds: all a lawyer has to do is send a fax and make a phone call.

Charles Johnson mentioned that Mr. Ray wrote blog posts praising the BNP. Then Mr. Johnson stated (I'm paraphrasing) that he disagreed with the BNP but still supported Mr. Ray's right to free speech.

For that, Mr. Ray wrote a nasty (extremely un-Christian) blog entry attacking Mr. Johnson. Next, he wrote a half-baked apology. Then Mr. Ray deleted both posts.

So how can any stranger know if Mr. Ray has not also deleted other problematic posts? Maybe he has; maybe he hasn't.

All we have to go on is what Paul Ray has written on his blog and, guess what, some people equate supporting the BNP with being racist, since the BNP's own statements are racist.

BNP supporters are going to have to get used to that. Vlaams Belang supporters are, too, since the VB are so friendly with groups such as the BNP.

Henrik,

You said the main tenets of VB are as follows:

1) Dissolve Belgium. That's their Reason d'etre.
2) Do away with the rampant welfarism that is entrenched in Belgium.
3) Deal with immigration and political Islam.

In my research however I found them to be this:

Nationalism / Independence (or in some cases joining with the Netherlands and taking land from France, the Heel-Nederlandisch faction of VB, mostly the Voorposters.)

Flemish Identity (anti-immigration and anti- all foreign culture and language, from Islamic to American, from French to English, or in other words Flemish Apartheid. (A search on “TAK vlaams” will give you the pertinent websites for that Flemish culture subgroup)

Amnesty for Nazi War Collaborators

Posted by: Henrik

But it is uniquely enabling to ascertain if a given ideology or political party has fascist leanings or not - much better than quarreling over the exact interpretations of obscure symbols.
Obscure symbols, indeed.

Oh, it could mean anything, I suppose, and the swastika is an ancient Indo-European symbol of good luck...

I suppose if we were serious about anti-Islamization here in America, we'd welcome the support of Dewinter's ideological brother, the esteemed Dr. David Duke... thanks for clarifying Henrik's muddied waters, Brett_McS.

Thanos, racism is a thought crime.

If someone acts in a civil manner toward me, I don't care if they think that I am of an inferior race, or have other kooky ideas. I don't judge peoples thoughts, only their actions.

Thanos

Your long post is a disorgnaized mess.

Is this what you offer as scholarly analysis?

No attribution, no date, no authority.

Are you actully expecting someone to respond to that pitiful, incoherent, cut & paste blather.

This may pass for acceptable debate in other places, but not here. As you can tell we are not the bobbleheads you are used to addressing.

UsorT, it's a cut and paste from my site. If you go here you will find it well organized, and linked.


http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?p=1753

here's another one, it has nice pictures:

http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/?p=1856

Thanos gloats:
"I knew we'd get to the nut of it all if I hung out long enough, time well spent.

This is typical "the ends justify the means" rationalization that evil always uses."
...............................................
It is hard to reply to such supercilious statements without making personal attacks. But knowing your type who would instantly deflect it onto myself I will refuse the bait.

You seem well to love the racism tag and that is your prerogative here and elsewhere but your last statement is just so much rubbish as you imply that good never uses it. Had that been true western civisation would have died out 1n 732 AD as even Constantinople couldn't handle a two front war. War is a denial of yr point and it always has been. Pacifism does not work vs the "right man" (muhammad in this case).

The racism flag flies from the jib of every idealist left winger and it is always only a white man's disease. Have you been to Japan or Zimbabwe? No racism there as they are not white. they simply have "different cultural views".

Racism is NOT the fact that people are different as they plainly are and not only how they look. Racism is about persecution of certain groups because of their race. Stumbling through all of the waffle above I saw no evidence of any racism but you can see it I know.

Be this persnickety and we will keep losing.
Is that your aim?

So MisIslamist, do you have anything to refute the facts, or you just here to disparage as well?

Well said, MisIslamist, although I would prefer to distinguish between actions and thoughts. Bad thoughts are everyone's perogative. We all have them at times. Bad actions aren't.

Typically people have a mix of bad and good thoughts. A person who believes that other races are inferiour (a bad thought) may also believe that it is right to treat everyone equally (good thought).

Should we judge such a person as evil? That would be an interesting standard.

I couldn't bear to read all of this; maybe someone has already made the point. If they have, sorry.

You are all spending valuable time yakking when each of you should get to work on some aspect of this war against civilization.

Find your niche and work! Stop analyzing to death every word and every group and playing this intellectual one-upsmanship.

You don't like a group? Form your own; the more the merrier.

I can just see the Islamists now laughing their heads off as you all haggle over the meaning of words.

Guys, we have here in Europe a very nice thing called the nation-state. It's a state that largely coincides with a nation, which is a group of people held together with a national identity - language, history, a constitution, culture, possily a royal family and other good stuff.

This works well for us, and has tought us a lot about pluralism. Each nation can organize society somewhat differently, which is useful and gives a beautiful variety to Europe.

This does not constitute racism.

We are perfectly able to accomodate minorities, as long as they respect our culture and constitution. Ample evidence for that exists, lots of good examples. We are having trouble with Muslims, for the very reason that the fundamentalists are not respecting our culture and constitution, and are actively working to establish parallel societies obedient to Sharia law, not secular law.

We used to have four states in Europe which were not nation-states:

Soviet Union, which collapsed relatively peacefully by help of human right activists and not least the wonderful Ronald Reagan. That state had been a major challenge for us for decades.

Yugoslavia, which collapsed in a not-at-all peaceful way, the conflict unfortunately aggravated by undue German and US interference that did not respect the principle of the nation-state but enforced artificial borders on the new states. That led to extensive violence, ethnic cleansing and undue influence to Al-Qaeda, the mafia and Wahhabi Islam. We are still at work cleaning up the mess, but the US is not being particular helpful here.

Czechoslovakia, which divided peacefully into two fine nation-states.

The remaining artificial state is Belgium. It is a deeply suffering state with a history of a mere 170 years (Denmark has, for sake of comparison, a 1000+ year history), and it's on its course to disintegrate into its Flemish and Waloon parts, with Brussels being a severe problem inbetween, not least due to a large immigrant population. We're heading for real trouble over this.

This is the real beef of what Vlaams Belang deals with, and it's a lot of work. If we waste their time quarreling over details, they simply might jettison their involvment in the part-time anti-Jihad movement (that's us) and focus on their main purpose.

For those interested in the particulars of obscure symbols, I refer again to the Center for Vigilant Freedom. I'm honestly disinterested. As above, I found a stack of them resolved to my full satisfaction, and we have much more urgent problems at hand, like this one:

The European Union is evolving into a super-state that pretends to protect our liberties but in reality is just as corrupt as its capital Brussels. It is showing itself utterly incapable of fulfilling the promises to defend basic citizens' rights, while hampering our ability to deal with immigration and Islam. This super-state is starting to show distinct fascist characteristics. Nickname: EUSSR

The purpose of the Jihad movement, to establish a new Caliphate, is seriously hampered by strong nation-states. The European Union, nicknamed Eurabia, is another way to view this problem.

One of the problems is that we are not quite aware of the roots of European identity, which is inescapably linked to Christianity. If the European Union would identify itself with this, effectively casting itself as a 'Christian club', I would deem it viable. Unfortunately, this has been refused.

European history and identity is profound and interesting. If we identify with this, we have no risk of identifying with backward religions from the Middle East, and can shake it off like a bad dream.

This thread has been very informative. I see a depth of knowledge, conviction and concern; and some other things. From here in the US, I can only try to sense the climate and meaning in and for Europe. I worry, too. What are the options?

If BNP and VB are considered by some, or many, to be "tainted," should all this time and energy be spent on proving/disproving points to the ultimate satisfaction or dissatisfaction of those involved in the debate? Not to mention the joy on the part of those who revel at the disarray. To learn what I can do to thwart what is on my horizon, I want to know what can a concerned Briton or worried Belgian do? What are the options?

In my opinion you either create the options, if it is feasible, or work with what you've got. Remember that not every good-thinker is able to rally wide support and those of us who are anxious want to find a place to hang our hat. What are the options?

Racism seems to be the overriding topic of contention. Can I like who I am and not dislike others, yet leave open the possibility of disliking my uncle or my neighbor? What are the options?

I couldn't bear to read all of this; maybe someone has already made the point. If they have, sorry.

You are all spending valuable time yakking when each of you should get to work on some aspect of this war against civilization.

Find your niche and work! Stop analyzing to death every word and every group and playing this intellectual one-upsmanship.

You don't like a group? Form your own; the more the merrier.

I can just see the Islamists now laughing their heads off as you all haggle over the meaning of words.

Thanos

Why should anyone here deal with your last long post above again, when it has been answered and refuted already, and it is YOU who refuse to answer.

You deal with this, and then maybe you can find an actual sparring partner.

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/10/31/facts-part-3-belgium-3-cases-in-orwellian-justice/

Usort, their posts are full of holes, fabrication, and have been discredited in several spots already. Try again, focus on the facts.

"How effective is VB? In all their years they have yet to pass one law. In all their years they have postured a lot, and accomplished nothing, nada, zip, zilch. They are isolated and ineffective by choice."

Wrong. They are isolated by the other parties by a very well-run and strict "cordon sanitaire" in which no other party faction is permitted to vote with them on ANYTHING.

If they said the sun was shining outside, the rest of the PMs would be required to disagree.

Yet somehow the evil VB's numbers continue to grow. No doubt this means the Flemish are evil, too. Why else would they vote for them?

Humor me Thanos. We don't travel 'round the blogosphere in the same circles. Where is this supposed refutation located? Or do you expect me to scour a gizillion LGF comments over the past 4 months?

If the facts are refutable you should be able to state which are in error Usort, please do so.

Bottom Line: Muslims and Islam are being protected by the PC doctrine of Anti-"Racism".

And if you can't see that Anti-"Racism" is distinct from Anti-Racism without the Orwellian quotes, then you are part of the problem.

Alas, many here are.

Thanos..I went to your site and it appears well organised although your bias does show somewhat... If I sounded disparaging it was because of your gloat and you fully deserved it. You one line reply just made it certain that it was well applied and well deserved.

I don't understand people like you who expect perfection and a blemish free universe. As Shiva has shown both of the UK parties have been full of stains and the tories supported slavery in the distant past. But no one brings that up at all. I cannot say that the BNP appeals to me but if they are an ally then I welcome them, although I would watch my back as I would do with ANY ally.

What facts are you talking about in particular? It is hard to define in a one line answer.
I went through your site carefully and I often saw interpretations stated as facts if not by you then by someone else. Some of these "facts" may be true, I don't know as I cannot claim to know much about the VB and quite honestly I really don't care about their past only about their future aims. Do you victimise a friend once you find out that he has a prison record just because of what the neighbours( left wingers) might think?

Your idealistic overprincipled viewpoint is typical of the splintering campaign which is tearing the antijihad coalition to shreds via infighting and causing us to lose this war. Can you not see this?
Even if I agreed with you about the VB, can we afford to be this particular?

The way that you seized the racism flag above shows you for what you could well be and that is: a cryptolefty.
Sorry if this offends but that is how it seems to me, and to others.

NB Thanatos might be better as with your views you are doing nought but aiding the death of the western legacy.

I await yr oneliner :)

This is all just jawing as far as Britain is concerned...

Come Spring, when the waters calm, dust off the welcome mat. You will have visitors...umm, permanent guests, I mean.

A million of them. Better make more room.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/libya/story/0,,2239907,00.html

Requiescat in pacem, England.

MisIslamist, you've stated above that I am in error and in the same comment you state you don't know all the facts. Please this is an important issue, as you've seen by the site I am quite willing to correct factual errors, and I leave the mistakes up with strikeouts so the world can see where I was wrong or mistaken.

That said have you read the 70 point plan? Those are Filip's words.
Have you read the manifesto?
Have you read the history of the Vlaams volks Beweging?

If you haven't then you probably don't know what you are talking about, and your commentary is just more smoke and obfuscation.

You are quite right that I am biased, I intend to win over time against Hizb ut Tahrir, The Muslim Brotherhood, Jamaat e Islameyah, Jaimsh e Muhammed, Hezb'allah, Harkut ul Jamiya Islami, Al Qaeda, TNSM, HAMAS, the Qods force, the Revolutionary guards, the Taliban, etc. etc. etc.

VB and their theatrics in Europe detract from that cause, hence the focus.

Dymphna,
You prove my point. VB's had opportunity to break the cordon sanitaire but remain ineffective because they refuse to drop amnesty for collaborators and ties to holocaust deniers.

I know you folks aren't liking the one liners, but sometimes facts are just facts, and that does not require long exposition.

"And if you can't see that Anti-"Racism" is distinct from Anti-Racism without the Orwellian quotes, then you are part of the problem.

Alas, many here are."
........................................

I think that Islam is being overprotected in western countries via the religious freedom acts which have bedome draconian in many western states. The problem is that Islam like communism and fascism is an ideology which uses religion as its shield and its spear. I constantly see hypocrisy in my own country where radical imams preach segregation and supremacy in their mosques but when a protestant preacher says that the Koran advocates violence he is almost gaoled.
Perhaps this sort of misapplication of the law is why we may need the BNP and the VB.

I dont think that anti-racism or racism has anything to do with protecting Islam except when the later is thrown up at antijihad groups.

However, if you read the Koran it appears to be racist in that it implies that whites are superior to yellows, browns and blacks(personified in Darfur) but that is okay as we dont want to side with Muslims.

In view of this the whole racism issue here is a bit of a red herring IMO and will continue to be one until we have overt and documented evidence of it being current policy and not just opinion.

ALL of them Thanos . ALL of of them.

If I am wrong, I will correct.

Tell me then, where is this supposed refutation located?

Religious Freedom is our strength, not our weakness.

Religious restrictions are exactly what CAIR and the leftists want, you play on their ground and manufacture poster-children for their causes. We can do without that.

Usort, specify which fact above you are trying to deny and I will link to the proof. Thanks.

MisIslamist,

The problem is that "racism" (as opposed to racism without the quotes) is being used by people to protect Islam.

And part of that protection involves slandering anti-Islam individuals and movements.

This problem is not going to go away by us ignoring the racial features involved.

As you and some of the other level-headed people here know, it doesn't matter how careful a person is to avoid all hints of "racist" language -- the PC crowd still rings the fire alarms of "racism" and "bigotry" and "genocide" whenever anybody dares to criticize Islam.

So in that kind of vulgar gutter of confused language & labels, we're supposed to believe the BBC about the BNP?

Nice try Thanos.

Lets try to clear this up.

Your position on symbols, funerals, and Nazi collaborators in the VB was addressed in the Vigilent Freedom anaysis that has been linked.

YOU said the CVF paper was "full of holes" and this has been proved.

I asked you where this refutation is, and you ask me what facts are in dispute. I say all of them.

Where is this refutation? Third request.

This Thanos character appears to have a lot of time and energy to undergird his opinions. I would welcome his detailed refutations, using arguments, of the following in-depth analyses of the problem of besmirching VB with the labels (or even just the hint, which in our PC times is just as incriminating) of "racism" and "fascism":

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/11/12/the-european-foreign-policy-of-charles-johnson/

and

http://www.vigilantfreedom.org/910blog/2007/10/31/facts-part-3-belgium-3-cases-in-orwellian-justice/

Until I see an anti-VB person who has refuted both of the above essays with cogent arguments, I will side with the conclusions of those essays.

I see that UsorThem is requesting the same elementary thing from Thanos.

Good luck.

Cantor

Thanos knows there is no such refutation other than a couple hundred scattered comments put up by he and by his fellow lizards over the past few months at his homebase.

He knows it and he obfuscates and dodges to get around admitting that.

Oh dear, here we go again. Robert lays out the bait marked “BNP” and all the same old roaches come scurrying out from under the cupboard, voicing their support / sympathy for the party along with variants of their tiresome “I’m not a racist, but…” disclaimer. Sad, but unfortunately, by now, totally predictable.

The most perceptive post in this thread came from Marisol, who hit the nail straight on the head:

MarisolJW

“For that matter, I don't see the BNP and their allies as helping. Rather, I think that by incorporating their anti-jihad cause into a larger agenda with a racial/ethnic dimension, they are playing directly into the hands of all the various advocacy groups who would love to brand the entire counter-jihad movement as racist. And we don't need that.”

No we don’t. The “BNP effect” is to totally destroy the credibility of even the most valid and important argument. The immigration debate in the UK has long been stymied by being associated with Far-Right race hate parties, something which the supporters of large-scale immigration have been only too happy to exploit.

The BNP offers nothing whatsoever to this fight. It cannot influence UK Government policy, because it has no MPs and no realistic possibility of gaining any. It cannot help to develop public support, because its racist views and hate rhetoric are anathema to all apart from those who share them.

(yes, yes, yes, the BNP fans will deny this, but unless you can provide a credible reason for its pathetic showing in General Elections - average 4% support last time, even in areas where immigration was a key issue - then please don’t bother. Rants about grand conspiracies and shadowy elites don’t count.)

The only thing that the BNP and other parties like it can do is to help marginalise this issue even further in the eyes of the mainstream, as well as put off those groups - non-Muslim minorities, ex-Muslims, Jews, gays, liberals and conservatives - whose support the anti-Islamist movement so badly needs to attract.

Christine at CVF spent a lot of verbiage to spin. I don't see anything in any of the essays that refutes the main facts and points I made, otherwise you would see corrections at my site like the others I've made. I've read them multiple times.

There are posts at LGF, and at Oyvind's, and At Babbazee's. There are key word searches in my articles that you can make yourself, there's enough evidence out there for diligent people to find, on VB's own sites. I've provided links in my articles to the facts, the pictures, the PDF's, the videos, the documentaries, and the verbiage on VB's own sites.

As just one example of where CVF has said they refuted something when they haven't, none have taken my challenge. If you think that Christine is right about the stormfront symbol for instance it's a simple matter to write to the Ijzerwake or Ijzerbedevaart committees to see if you can show up with one on a black flag next August. Simple to prove or disprove right?

Or you could just wear an unadorned Odin's cross on a T-shirt to church next Sunday and see what your pastor and neighbors think if you think it means naught.

Or you could consult the German authorities to see which symbols are banned. (Which is wrong of them, I am consistent about freedom, if you want to parade with white power symbols you should be allowed to do that so people can laugh at you.)

Usort:

Thanos knows you won't take up his challenge. Write to the committees, see if you can bring an Odin's cross to Ijzerbedevaart if it's just a symbol of "Flemish Nationalism".

Let me help you out Usort, here's the official commitee site:

http://www.ijzerbedevaart.be/

they have a contact link.

Metamoron:
The only roach I can be sure to see scurrying from the light upon the mention of the BNP is you.

However, the mindless blatter from Brits like you who refuse to use (and participate in)a party that recognizes the the fatal plunge of the Islamic sword into Britain and who has set up a sizable political reservoir in mainstream British politics leads me to believe that Britain is doomed. Violence and anarchy will be the order of the day as those who seek to support British culture and the freedoms of our Western ideology will be sold out by corrupt and spineless politicians. Under the guidance of people like you the BNP and the immediate, necessary platforms against Islamization and immigration will put the final stamp of approval on Eurabia. Congratulations. I will send you your prayer mat as a gift from America.

Thanos..thank you for the non oneliner.

Manifesto a political party that wishes flemish indepenence and wants to control the destiny of its own people. Now that is criminal, as is the aim of placing their own people first as we all know that Muslims should be placed first.
What is yr point? Is french your native tongue?

the 70 point plan...I died of exhaustion as did the translation at about no 57. and much of what went before was barely intelligible. you tell me what is offensive here? I simply see those who pay the taxes expecting the lion's share of the benefits while those immigrants who refuse to work/integrate receive short shrift. As 99% of these are Muslim what is your point? I see nothing wrong with this. There must be some room for special cases to be dealt with fairly but other than that I agree with most of what I could understand. I am sure that you wanted me to say just that so i hold my breath.

"What we know, (keep in mind that multiple proofs and sources exist for each of these statements, most are not leftist." I didn't see much of this.

The SIOE people were quite right to be annoyed with VB but both you and they fail to see that they are a separatist party and always have been
their antiMuslim stance only came about once they perceived the dire threat. Better late than never.

Why do you think that there was a Walloon SS brigade? Because they were proNazi? That is always the assumption of people like you.

No, because they were promised independence once the war was over, something that they had wanted for decades.
What the Flems wanted is not more than what Croatia achieved yet I do not see Croats being called neonazis despite their support of Nazi germany during the war and for the same reasons. go learn about all of the support the nazis had from the walloons the croats, the bosnian muslims, the ukrainians and the cossacks and even the Uzbekis. These were all
SEPARATIST motivated initially but never let this get in the way of the taint of the swastika.

How much of your site is absolutely proven and documented fact and how much is nebulous opinion?
Even if it is proven then just how magnified is it? I mean a dagger on someone's bookshelf? Wow!!

I own Mein Kampf, Mao's little red book, Che Guevaras book, Das Kapital, Manifesto, etc God help me if you go by ONE picture of ONE bookshelf

Go have a fresh look at it.
But does it really matter? Not IMO.

An ally with other ideas? perhaps but an ally nonetheless.

I often wonder what would have happened in WW2 if Japan had been an enemy in WW1 and offered to come in as an ally in WW2. London still would have burned but people who dont forget would have have made such an alliance almost untenable.

desperate times

Here's another Fact. There used to be just Ijzerbedevaart, the Iron Pilgrimage, which honored the Flemish patriots from WWI. But the committee wanted to make tolerance part of the platform back in 2003, so VB split off and started their own celebration of Flemish nationalism, the Ijzerwake. They refused to drop amnesty, so they needed their own celebration away from the evil taint of ... tolerance.

They also have an official site, why don't you write them and see if they will allow an Odin's cross flag? I mean they did in 2004, so you might have more luck with the VB-run Ijzerwake.

Let me see: the Republican Party of the US has religious right and business wings. So should an anti-jihad movement have both religious and racist wings? No, but whose a racist? Ethnocentrism founds all anti-jihadism. We are better than them. Muslims are savages; we are civilized.

Muslims believe that they are successor peoples to a "prophet." They claim total sovereignty over the earth. UK Muslims only use the word "Spain" when they cannot use "Andalusia." Our lands are the "house of war" (dar harb); our politics is a salient to those belligerent animals. They are our mortal enemy.

In WW2 the West allied with the Stalin dictatorship. As long as European political movements don't go beyond ethnocentrism, and adopt racial supremacist views, they should be welcomed as an integral part of the anti-jihad movement.

Speaking of supremacist? Who the hell is Charles (lgf) Johnson? He has served as a Bush-doormat since 9-11. He is hardly a moral arbiter; he is a spent gas-bag just like his slaver. GWB was begging his Saud masters last week; he can go to hell.

"Oh dear, here we go again. Robert lays out the bait marked “BNP” and all the same old roaches come scurrying out from under the cupboard, voicing their support / sympathy for the party along with variants of their tiresome “I’m not a racist, but…” disclaimer. Sad, but unfortunately, by now, totally predictable."

And even more sadly the usual holier than thou diarrhoea in return. "I support the BNP therefor I am a racist". Do you actually realise what you are saying and implying? That is the most bigoted and hypocritical statement I have seen here for ages. I wont insult you in like except to say:"Shame upon you!!"

You have obviously read NONE of the above.
How dare you acuse others of your own diseases: prejudice and ignorance.

The 7O point plan called for checking back two generations to establish citizenship rights. It called for separate schools, separate curricula, and separate facilities just as in South Africa, and the segregationist South. It didn't work then, it won't work now. It called for preference for white people in leadership roles in unions, disallowed union participation for immigrant citizens, apartment preferences for white people, and setting up to deport all non-Flemish. etc. etc. etc. Indeed, the author, Filip Dewinter wanted the Portugeuse deported.

Another example - Frank Vanhecke went to a town council meeting recently and interupted it, tearing a book or papers out of the speaker's hand because he was speaking.... omigosh, French... to a French speaking council.

If you can't see what's wrong with that, well there's not much point in further discussion. Thanks for trying.

Religious Freedom is our strength, not our weakness.

.......................................
Oh I quite agree...in theory.
But when it is misapplied to a supremacist ideology who use it to shield them from criticism and to enable easy jihadic funding then it has its limitations and these limitations may well ensure that in the future there will ONLY be religious freedom: for Muslims and no one else.

Such blanket statements are incredibly stupid as no one disputes the value of religious freedom in theory. But the practice: that is something totally different and very worthy of harsyh criticism.

No religious freedom is not stupid. Religious intolerance is stupid. Are you siding with the Saudis? They are somewhat intolerant right?

You speak what the jihadis want you to speak, you react the way they want you to, your intolerance enables groups like CAIR and others to obtain a small speck of firm ground to stand upon, wrong as they are in fact. You are indeed jihadist meat puppets; they want your hate, it helps them recruit.

"The 7O point plan called for checking back two generations to establish citizenship rights. It called for separate schools, separate curricula, and separate facilities just as in South Africa, and the segregationist South"
.................................................

ahh I never saw that. However, before I totally disagree with it, what context is it in? Does it assume that there will be a Muslim majority in belgium in the near future. How does it differ from madrassas or even from catholic schools out here? I asssume that(failing a muslim majority, there will be french and flemish schools. Is that so bad? will the nonflems be treated as second class citizens? you supply no data about any of this but you do assume a lot. Apartheid??? only if teh nonflems are second class citizens . Where is that?

"You speak what the jihadis want you to speak, you react the way they want you to, your intolerance enables groups like CAIR and others to obtain a small speck of firm ground to stand upon, wrong as they are in fact. You are indeed jihadist meat puppets; they want your hate, it helps them recruit."

What are you talking about? I have no idea as to what you mean here. Are you okay?

Please reread my post and apologise. I do admit that to see it in its true context you may have to read all of my posts but after ploughing through yr site that is a small endeavour by comparison.

It is all through it. Please read it. Oyvind has a translation of parts at his site, other sites do as well.

In Honor of Martin Luther King since it's now past Midnight east coast, and it's MLK day in the US:

"But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead.

We cannot turn back."

"They refused to drop amnesty, so they needed their own celebration away from the evil taint of ... tolerance."

Thanos thinks that "tolerance" is the same as tolerance, and that both are good.

He is grievously mistaken. And mistakes like his will in the coming decades cost the lives of possibly millions of innocent Infidels.

Thanos..one post with which I can wholeheartedly agree. MLK was a jewel IMHO and should be beatified.

MisIslamist:

You are a supremacist bigot. A state constitution based on your minoritarianism could only support a dictatorship.

California Republicans don't cultivate anti-immigration voters, but they WANT those votes.

Do you want a homeland for savages who support Hamas genocidists? If it was in my power I would establish a 200 mile exclusion zone - viz muslims - around Temple Mount and boot all those of arab-invasion/colonization origins back to the territorial-demographic pig-pens from whence they came. There is no political will to do so because our depraved leaders are still kissing arab muslim butt. That will change and we need a hardline majority online, that will drop the axe on our mortal enemy. Islam is terror; muslims are terrorists. Think like that if you want to end the global genocidal juggernaut of imperial-mohammadanism.

The racist agenda is unsellable to a majority; racists are useful to the anti-jihad. And constructive engagement with Euro-exclusionists, enables us to reform them.

Get off your knees, or the mortal enemy will keep you there with Charles Johnson and George Walker Bush.

Well reasoned and spot on Robert. I would also add that the same parties which oppose Islamization tend to be the same ones that also oppose, among other things, gay rights. They are also unabashedly racist. In pointing out that racism is not to be accepted, also not take this fine opportunity to add similar concerns as well?

Ok the argument has now come full circle back to "but we allied with Stalin" thrice now, so there's not further point.

The puppy just dragged the blanket downstairs to let me know it's time for bed, so say what you have to say, people see through you. I'm getting some sleeps, see you perhaps on the morrow.

Well reasoned and spot on Robert. I would also add that the same parties which oppose Islamization tend to be the same ones that also oppose, among other things, gay rights. They are also unabashedly racist. In pointing out that racism is not to be accepted, will you not also take this fine opportunity to add similar concerns as well?

This has been a very informative and useful debate. Speaking as a British person who lives and works in the UK - although taking frequent trips abroad to visit relatives and to work - I have to say that much of what many of you have raised here was unknown to me.

I have often (well, over the last few months) asked myself the same underlying question as many of you are overtly, or by implication, asking: what's wrong with the UK? Do you know, I think that after several deep thought sessions I can answer that - at any rate, I can give an answer which satisfies me at the moment.

There is only one thing wrong with the UK vis-a-vis the Islamist threat and that is that most British people, no matter what their originating race, simply don't believe that the threat can affect Britain. You see, we live in a society in which women are legally equal to men and we have a judicial system which enforces that whenever the issue arises. We live in a society which has recently granted full equality to 'gay' people and we have a judicial system which enforces that whenever the issue comes before it. We live in a society in which children's rights are enshrined in law and we have a judicial system which enforces those rights whenever children, or child-related offences, comes before it. We live in a society which has clearly demarcated legal boundaries about work, employment, trade unions and employers and wages and we have a legal system which enforces those boundaries, and the rights and duties of both sides, and attempts to ensure fairness in those fields whenever cases of such an ilk come before it.

In short, we have spent many, many decades devising and implementing a system of legal safeguards, duties and guarantees for just about everybody in just about every situation. This is because we felt, inchoately perhaps, as a people that the highest expression of our civilisation was to live peacefully together under the law made for us, with us and by us, by our freely elected representatives. As a consequence of this - and as a mark of our wretched inability to think things through - we failed signally to realise that the very system which we were (are) creating could be used against us - that some of the people who have come here (and who keep coming here) would exploit our legal system, our modes of civilised thought, for their own nefarious and absolutist ends.

Perhaps we have failed to mark out the territory sufficiently well. Perhaps we have failed to explain to the recent immigrants to our land the principles by which we live - the primary one being that of consent freely (without coercion) and willingly (after thought and consideration) given, or (and equally as important) with-held, by anybody deemed legally capable of so doing. Perhaps we have failed to address the problem of religion in our society - that religion may inform individual action under a disinterested law and legal system but no religious belief may govern the law, the legal system, or society at large. Perhaps we have failed to articulate clearly our concept of freedom, our concept of impartial government and societal construction, our concept of absolute rights, our concept of relative rights and our concept of equality before an impartial, disinterested, democratically arrived at, law and legal system.

Yes, perhaps we have failed in all of that but, and it's a big but, we have failed because simply we never foresaw that our values, our carefully worked out enlightenment - cultural, moral, spiritual and corporeal - could ever be challenged by any sane adult. We never foresaw that we could run up against a system of belief that reduced adults to an insane and incomprehending level of simplistic and absolutist madness. In other words, we never foresaw militant Islam. We dealt with the world which we knew and that world was the madness of Europe in the thirties and forties and we armed ourselves against that in the best way that we knew how - by accentuating and developing the British concept of the rule of law in its uniquely European setting.

We set out to develop a society which would include all of its members equally - little did we realise that we would include a large number of people who sought only the destruction of our inclusive and liberal (note the small 'l') society and would seek, and use the very instruments that we devised to achieve freedom and liberality, the very antithesis - the destruction - of that which we set out to achieve. Our mistake, our crime perhaps, if such it be, is innocence (tinged, maybe, with arrogance), and now we have to persuade many, many millions of people that we have to alter course if we wish to remain free.

Can you imagine the difficulty which this poses? For the best part of sixty years (more than two generations) we have advocated a course of action which for most of that time has worked and now we have to persuade an entire nation to change - and to change quickly if it wishes to survive in a free state. It's almost, but not quite, impossible.

So, why do I say that it is not quite impossible? I say this because the last sixty years has really effected a sea change in the attitudes of most British people. They are more sensible today of their freedoms and of their rights - and of their obligations - than at any time in the past. No matter what the ineffectual government at the centre may say, no matter how the cringing Eurocrats may behave, no matter how the pusillanimous parliamentary idiots may disport themselves, all one has to do is go out into the country and ask the questions that government, civil servants, office wallahs, dare not ask - cannot ask because of certain legal stupidities - and you will find a population at extreme variance from the idiotic politically correct centre. As yet no hero has emerged to give voice to ordinary man and woman, perhaps because the situation is not yet perceived to so dire as to warrant a following of such a person; but, believe me, we British will not give up our freedoms to Islam or anyone else (not even the US of A). When the moment comes, as it surely will, we will take action. The difficulty is that some of you think the moment is now. Obviously, we British don't! We could be wrong!

"You are a supremacist bigot. A state constitution based on your minoritarianism could only support a dictatorship"
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
err in your apparent excesses of wisdom how did you decide upon that opinion?
Because I posted the Separatist motives of many nazi allies? That makes me a cryptonazi?

That is so funny that I cannot even be offended.
What is it about you people that makes you jump to miraculously illogical conclusions like this?

So, if I pointed out Stalin's value to the west, I am a communist? If I say that JC was the most important man on earth I am a religious bigot?
give me strength!!

I sure am wasting my time here in answering such idiotic posts. Thanos for all of his faults really believes and really tries compared to you.

Olive

Thank you for that post.
It is the same in my country but beware!! As soon as a threat appears on the horizon the macninations of organised and monied politics will begin their smear campaign much as is happening here and this will attarct the lunatic fringe who will cooperate with the ruling parties to destroy it and him from superficially within.

Do not underestimate just how eagerly and to what ends they will go to beat down such a person.

Someone smeared Anti-Jihad inclusivists with the anti "gay rights" tag. Anti jihadis don't all share the views of the religious right. In 1968, the American Medical Assn accepted the prevailing view in the psychological community that homosexuality is best classified as a "personality disturbance," that doesn't determine character. That has held among anyone who treats the issue with impartiality and objectivity. I oppose discrimination against homosexuals; I support discrimination against muslims, because their jihad-aggression is a collective character flaw, that compels us to tar those murder cultists with the terrorist label. A muslim is pathologically unfit to live under Western liberties and democratic politics, because those ideas are anathema to the self-proclaimed "slaves of allah."

Islam is the dogma; terrorism is the convention.

The brazen apologism for the enemy that has polluted this thread, disgusts me. You doormats are part of the reason why less than 30% of Americans distrust the mortal enemy and virulent subversive. We cannot repel muslim aggression and then roll it back until that figure reaches at least 80%.

------------------
I suspect that I alone am aware that Robert Spencer has been forced to shop for publishers in order to put his books in print; and none of the big name houses will publish him. Bat Ye'or has the identical problem. Clearly, he dares not complain about the left kulturkampf against his exercise of freedom of conscience. How many here have done ANYTHING to ensure that Abrahamist swine like Bruce Feiler are balanced by scholars who challenge the common-faith-of-Abraham BS? Probably zero. What if intimidation and surrender leaves RS without a publisher? The religious right-center-left, the libertarian conservatives, and the ethnocentrists must unite to form a secular ecclesia militans against the jihad menace. That can't be done when so-called anti-jihadis adopt the dogma that nobody can abandon racist, anti-semitic or fascist positions. Al Qaeda will love this thread. What an invitation to divide and conquer.

Posted by: guftafs
Young Collett is still in the BNP. (This one's from Channel 4's Dispatches series. Don't know what you feel about them. Still, Collett says what he says.)

WHAT FAILS TO MENTION WAS THAT THE VIDEO WAS MADE MORE THAN SIX YEARS AGO AND ALSO FORGETSTHIS

Mark Collett was sacked from his position as Young BNP leader in November last year and suspended from the party after he was the subject of a Channel 4 documentary Young, Nazi and Proud.

Mr Collett was recorded by the film-maker saying it would better for children to grow up in 1930s Germany than modern-day Oldham and that National Socialism was the best solution for Germany at the time.

He also said: "I'd never say this on camera, the Jews have been thrown out of every country including England. It's not just persecution. There's no smoke without fire."

Within minutes of the programme being broadcast BNP leader Nick Griffin issued a statement saying Mr Collett had been sacked and would face a disciplinary tribunal.

He said at the time: "Extremist sentiments which would once have been commonplace, accepted and even flaunted within the BNP, have now led us to sack one of our best, most capable and organisationally most useful assets."

Mr Griffin condemned the film-maker for "ambushing" Mr Collett into his embarrassing remarks but added: "The BNP is fundamentally opposed to all foreign totalitarian ideologies, including Nazism."


The BNP's West Midlands organiser Simon Darby said: "I can confirm Mark Collett was removed from his position as young co-ordinator and he was suspended from the party for 12 months. He has served his suspension and is now back working on various things.

"He is a very bright lad, but he was humiliated by that programme and he knows better than anybody else that he has been politically damaged because of the things he said.

supercargo (and others): I, and many other, gay posters have posted here. By and large we have been met with tolerance - albeit, tolerance coloured by individual (understandable)incomprehension on occassion - but primarily we have been met with, justifiably, a profound amazement that so few gay people recognise Islam as a threat. I don't know why that is. I can't even begin to hazard a guess or to make sense of it.

Why on earth do gay people, often so vocal against the perceived slights of Christianity, fail to see the threat to life that Islam, in all its forms, poses? Search me!

My guess is that the commenters who are up in arms about the possibility that an ally in the fight against Jihadism may have racist elements are mostly, if not entirely, Americans. (This would include RS, of course).

The theme of "white guilt" is relentlessly drummed into American students throughout their school career. A charge of racism in the US has an emotional power almost without equal. To even hint that one has racist attitudes or thoughts on US campuses is like confessing to be a serial killer.

I would go one step further and suggest that those most up in arms about any whiff of racism are former leftists (such as Charles at LGF). Racism - excluding actual physical attacks - is a belief, a thought, and leftists have been the A number 1 champions at punishing Thought Crime.

OliverP: "Why on earth do gay people, often so vocal against the perceived slights of Christianity, fail to see the threat to life that Islam, in all its forms, poses?"

It's called psychological displacement: Project ones real fears (about Islam) onto something which is actually not threatening (Christianity) in order to reduce their power.

This is typically done when a person believes that, for some reason, nothing can be done about the real threat. Many leftists typically do it because Political Correctness stops them from confronting the Islamist threat. Perhaps some gays do it for similar reasons.

JustAnotherRichard:

it will be an almost given, that the reigns of political power will fall into their (BNP) laps by default in the coming years.

See, here’s the problem of relying on the Internet and blogging sites for your news. It risks giving you a completely skewed version of reality. I’ll admit, I’m not immune. I was stunned when I first read online of a US politician of whom I’d never heard, but who had built such a huge groundswell of popular support - he was winning every online poll, every phone-in - that he was a virtual shoe-in for the Presidency. That candidate, of course, was Ron Paul.

“The reigns of political power”, far from being assured, are in truth so far from the BNP that it is laughable. At its present size, it takes 324 elected MPs to gain a political majority in the British Parliament. The BNP has no MPs. Not a one. In more than thirty years of trying, under various names and guises, the neo-Nazi movement in Britain has never even come close to getting a candidate elected to Parliament. So unless every other political party simultaneously decides, overnight, to give up and go home, the myth of “eventual political power” will remain just that.

(The more intelligent of the diehards down the Stormfront sewer are realistic enough to concede that the Party will never even gain one MP, let alone form the Govt.)

Brett_McS: What an intersting thought. Thank-you for that. I will think and consider for you could be correct. It feels right from conversations I have had with my fellow gay activists - and with some of my left-leaning straight friends.

Oliver my apologies for calling you olive and that was not a freudian slip as i didn't know nor care about yr sexuality..I didn't use my glasses like I should have done is my only excuse.

SC

Many of us are aware of the problems RS has in publishing and it diesn't surprise me with the current obsession with being seen as squeaky clean PC. In the old days underground presses were rife. Maybe it is time to restart them.

As far as Al Qaeda loving this thread is concerned:" u betcha". As it shows the splintering, the disunity and the querulous infighting of antijhadic groups who seem more obsessed with each other's past sins than present aims.

There isn't a political party in the world without aims both primary and secondary and likewise there isn't a purely antijihad group either as all have secondary aims or else they are very poorly organised parties. Far too few people see the jihad threat to join a purely antijihad party and you must have coverage of other issues to attract them.

"That can't be done when so-called anti-jihadis adopt the dogma that nobody can abandon racist, anti-semitic or fascist positions".

What makes you think that supporting the BNP measn that you have to assume its supposed racist ideology? if enough people support groups like this then they will evolve to suit the majority and I see no reason to take for granted that they cannot evolve, nor that they have to retain their past identity. IMO they being at grass roots level see the problem more clearly than even you or I do and they may well realise that past pettiness comes a distant second to present problems. My analogy with victimising a friend with a past prison record applies to you also.


No one really wants the BNP or VB as allies but in spite of your stance, do we have a choice?
If the BNP revert back to old form, most new adherents will melt into the sunlight as they came for a different agenda.

MisIslamist: Oh, I do hope it was a Freudian slip, old boy, for it caused much (kind) laughter at this end. No offence taken, I can assure you.

Actually, I rather like having an alter ego called 'Olive'. I see him/her as slightly common - probably a beer drinker on a Friday night in a small and friendly hostelry at the end of a cobbled street - and possibly overly familiar and friendly in a 'Hail fellow, well met' sort of way.

Yep. 'Olive' I could definitely learn to love. I think we'll be hearing more from him/her very soon.

I have tried to read this entire thread, and have compared the two camps --

1) the ones who think the BNP and VB are personas non grata, and

2) the ones who are reasonably skeptical of the labels that have been put onto the BNP and VB (reasonably skeptical given the PC climate we operate in today where such labels emanate from the PC ideology).

It seems to me that group #1 are irrational ideologues who have swallowed too much of the PC skittishness about "racism", and that group #2 are open-minded people who use reason and experience rather than pre-fab ideological labels, Boxes, and knee-jerk emotion Pavlovianly triggered by words like "racist" and "fascist" and "national" etc.

Members of group #1 are the ones doing the splintering of the Anti-Jihad Movement. Any fissures happening are due to them, not group #2. So they have a lot of gall crying about the "disunity" after they have been the ones fomenting the fractious ostracization while we (group #2) support inclusiveness of BNP and VB and other ragged pariahs upon whom the dreaded labels of PC sins have fallen.

Frankly, I declare we put the shoe on the other foot: Let's announce that unless group #1 including the Great RS (and the not-so-Great Charles Johnson) stop scurrilously vilifying the BNP and VB, they will be denied entry into the Anti-Jihad Movement.

How does a taste of your own medicine feel, eh?

For those interested in a truth view of the BNP, there was a fascinating documentary on TV over here the other evening, called BNP Wives. It featured three women activists involved in the party, and provided a real insight into the mindset of its supporters. Two of them were quite clearly barking mad, which was expected, but the third seemed fairly ordinary.

That, however, was before she stated, quite matter-of-factly, that she’d demanded the hospital provide a white midwife to deliver her baby. Come the birth, she was appalled - her midwife was BLACK (The horror! The horror!) Again she demanded a white nurse. “I had nothing against her” she insisted, “but I’m white and I wanted a white woman delivering my baby.”

She was slim, pretty, well-spoken - just an ordinary young mum, which made it all the more shocking to hear such blatant ignorance and bigotry coming out of her mouth. What did she think would have happened if a black nurse had delivered her baby? (And would she be so choosy if she or her kids ever need emergency treatment?)

The question is - what is the difference between this woman and an Islamist bigot who refuses to shake hands with a non-Muslim, or refuses to touch an “unclean” bible? The answer is: nothing at all.

(You had to laugh at times. Her husband, a party official, had a National Alliance rune tattoo, long-time a Nazi motif, which he tried to explain away as symbolising the “Tree of Life”).

For those who know little or nothing about the BNP - which judging by the comments is most non-British people posting here - it would be worth looking out for the show on Youtube. The three women each encompassed the whole gamut of typical BNP supporters’ views, from the above racial bigotry, to the paranoia and outright lies ( “They only serve halal meat in the Navy” ) to our old BNP “friend“, Holocaust “revisionism” (“I don’t say the Holocaust never happened - I just have a problem with the numbers” ).

It even featured the Party’s annual fun day (whites only). Despite being allowed to film during the day, the film crew’s cameras were strangely banned from covering the event in the evening, so that members could “let their hair down and be themselves.” Not surprising - the last time BNP members were filmed “letting their hair down” they were caught burning crosses, giving Nazi salutes, and making jokes about Auschwitz.

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=2745692

my friends

pray that people like Bp Nazir-Ali and Bp Sookhdeo may wake up the Anglican Communion in time

pray that Benedict XVI and knowledgeable cardinals like our own George Pell in Australia may do the same for the Catholic communion - and that Robert, too, in his identity as an eastern-rite Catholic, may be able to wake up his fellow Catholics

pray that Serge Trifkovic may get through to the Orthodox

pray that the Jewish community worldwide will awaken to the warnings of their own - Bat Yeor, Andrew Bostom, Raphael Israeli

pray that the works of Oriana Fallaci, together with those defectors from the Empire of Islam, Ibn Warraq and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, now manning the intellectual barricades, will win over the secular intellectuals

perhaps it's not too late for non-Muslim India (Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Jain, Parsee, Christian, tribal) to hear V S Naipaul's warnings about Islam and what it does, and has done

Here is a prayer from the Frenchman, Abbe Quoist:

"The Wire Fence"
The wires are holding hands around the holes:
To avoid breaking the ring, they hold tight the neighbouring wrist
and it's thus with holes they make a fence.
Lord, there are lots of holes in my life
there are some in the lives of my neighbours
but if you wish we shall hold hands
we shall hold very tight
and together we shall make a fine roll of fence
to adorn Paradise."

A fine roll of fence, too, around our non-Muslim civilisations, to keep the Jihad out.

Here we go again...

What a waste of time and energy, at this point I almost can't be bothered to make the point I made on the previous thread on the BNP and VB. Not that it will get past you race focussed useful idiots.

VB and SD have changed and I accept that, I don't care what CJ thinks, he is in the USA and has no understanding of Europe. And from threads like this I have come to the conclusion that my once unshakeable belief that the USA will help democrats like me is a dream, we are on our own, apart from people like the fine folks at Gates of Vienna.

If at some point I am on that barricade with a flint lock pistol and sword waiting for the Islamists with an AK47, I will fortify myself with the thought that the USA will have protected its status by not helping anyone perceived by surrender merchants as racist.

The BNP have yet to change and have isues, such as white only membership and lingering anti-semitism, along with what I would call a very socialist political approach, but there is a change in the BNP occurring now and it will take time. Do people try to help that along, I don't know.

What I do know is that the BNP is the only political party in the UK who recognise the threat of Islam and are doing anything about it.

I had a good look at the BNP and in the end decided it was not for me, but when it comes to their stance on Islam I will support them in speaking out even if I do not like them.

As for you do gooders, whiter than snow, holier than thou merchants, keep at it, protect your good names to be able to be effective in the USA, where you are in a much better situation than us Europeans.

In 1944 American paratroopers crossed the Rhine in flimsy boats in a vain attempt to save British Paratroopers in Arnhem, you are not the same Americans, you are much less then them, just as Brits of my generation are so much less than the generation that stood up to the Nazi's.

Perhaps our civilisation deserves what is coming to us, run by fools for fools.

I oppose Islam because it is anti everything that I hold dear, but that is not good enough for some of you holier than thou and pure people, well so be it. As a Brit can only say, up yours with knobs on it!

Mr Spencer, I don't know what is happening to you, either someone has managed to make a racist barb stick on you so you are trying to fight it with this post, or that your doing this for friendship purposes with CJ, but please focus on exposing Islam which is your forte. You are respected by anti-Jihadist Europeans, CJ is not, he lost any respect he had by a crusade not be seen as wrong in terms of the VB.

So my initial "gut feeling" over the only source for the LGF story has proved to been correct. No other news agency has come up with anything about the participants in the demonstration, other than the Australian's report claiming that the BNP were amongst the demonstrators.

I wonder who fed the Australian the bogus news story? I can't help but emphasize the damage caused by over reacting to a single new report.

That said, I am in full agreement with Robert that the Vlaams Belang should take advantage of the moment, and once and for all, dispel the rumors and uncertainties surrounding their supposed ties with other "well known" racists groups and be done with it.

Those of us who have participated in the conference, (yes I was there and Robert can verify the fact that I represented Finland) have all acted in good faith and have clearly stated our views and aims and goals. The VB members present there had also stated clearly their concerns, aims and goals.

I cannot see why they shouldn't do so again, this time in a public manner which would go a long way in helping to dismiss the concerns of others. Most if not all of the participants to the Counterjihad Conference in Brussels have been very vocal in expressing themselves about the conference, why they were there, and that they (myself included) were convinced that the hosts of the event were on the up and up.

The VB leadership has only to give voice to why they sponsored the event, why they are different from well known racist groups, and that they disagree with their racial platforms. Dewinter has said as much on a personal level in radio interviews, but this apparently has not been enough to sooth any uncertainty.

Once again, the main point to this post has been that the BNP was a participant to a VB sponsored demonstration in Antwerp, which they weren't. Dymphna has demonstrated earlier that even the BNP has been going through a major split, with many wanting to divest themselves from a racist platform. That is good news.

I welcome any major shift that involves a political party moving away from its own racial bigotry. Most political parties (that I know of)have involved themselves at one time or another with such destructive policies, it is good news to hear that the BNP is in the process of doing so. But the move is just in its beginnings with much to look out for in the future.

The issue at hand though is the VB, who has proved to those of us on the individual level what they are all about. It now up to them to dispel publically, all the rumors and innuendo about them and their alliances. I look with hope to their doing so in the very near future. My question now is, once they do so, what new hoop will be placed in front of them to jump through?

Best regards to Robert, --who has been very thoughtful and reasonable throughout this whole brouhaha-- to whom we all owe a major debt of thanks.

KGS

www.tundratabloid.blogspot.com

Cantor and DaffersD..good posts IMHO thank you both

Matamoros..ohh the media says it so it must be right...having seen here what they did to Pauline Hansen (who had her fingertip on the majority pulse here) I would be very sceptical if I were you about ANY media views on non-mainstream parties.

....Nazi salutes!! OMG!!! next they will be shooting jews I can see it now.

As for the 3 wives story, I have seen such interviews here about the Cronulla (and elsewhere) islam inspired riots. The media here presented a totally biased and UNTRUTHFUL account of what happened. Several Australians were gaoled almost immediately while it took private individuals several weeks to force the arrest of some of the involved Muslims clearly sen on security cameras. The media are simply an extension of the political arm of all ruling parties and we know how irrelevant truth is to them. Did you ask how many they interviewed before they made their selection?

I have to admit to chortling when I read yr post.
No offence as I too, was young once.

Charles Johnson dogma reads: there is no such thing as an ex-fascist/white racist, and the de-nazification program in post WW2 Germany must have been a farce. The Simon Wiesenthal Center disagrees. According to those premier workers at bringing Nazi war criminals to justice, Jews should accept an ex-nazi as a speaker, and allow him to claim status as a Center' "consultant." In fact, millions of Jews have heard Thomas Leyden speak of his rejection of anti-semitism and fascism.

http://formerskinhead.blogspot.com/

http://www.itvs.org/blink/racism1.html

Of the denying mentality, Jesuit founder Loyola wrote that mentally suppressing a wicked thought - like the evil of respect for free exercise of conscience - would make it go away. Whoopee.

What is the LGF mantra?: I-Must-Suppress-Belief-That-Any-White-Person-Can-Be-An-Ex-Racist-or-Anti-Semite-And-Disbelief-Will-Stay-Impacted-On-My-Dogma-Polluted-Brain. I love my lizardoid big brother. I will continue to accept his personal information sucking Cookies on my computer.

Robert Spencer; I have spent over $150 on your books. That gives me the right to ask you if Hugh Fitzpatrick - a pre-911 contributer to religious right websites (I remember it well) - unduly influenced you in embracing CONVERSION-DENIAL. Did you defer to the Fitz?

It is strange, I know, but in my experience those who level the charge of racism are generally the most intolerant people whom I have ever met. The children of such loud-mouths are, in general and in my experience, not allowed to marry white people or people of asian descent. Generally speaking, such racists value 'racial purity' above all else and look askance at those who comingle their blood with whites or asians or Amerindians.

Such people see the possession so-called 'black-skin' as a badge of pride, a mark of superiority that places them above all others and allows to them some sort of immunity before the law no matter how much they insult we lesser races.

It is strange, I know, but in my experience those who level the charge of racism are generally the most intolerant people whom I have ever met. The children of such loud-mouths are, in general and in my experience, not allowed to marry white people or black people. Generally speaking, such racists value 'racial purity' above all else and look askance at those who comingle their blood with whites or blacks or Amerindians.

Such people see the possession so-called 'asian characteristics' as a badge of pride, a mark of superiority that places them above all others and allows to them some sort of immunity before the law no matter how much they insult we lesser races.

It is strange, I know, but in my experience those who level the charge of racism are generally the most intolerant people whom I have ever met. The children of such loud-mouths are, in general and in my experience, not allowed to marry black people or people of asian descent. Generally speaking, such racists value 'racial purity' above all else and look askance at those who comingle their blood with blacks or asians or Amerindians.

Such people see the possession so-called 'white-skin' as a badge of pride, a mark of superiority that places them above all others and allows to them some sort of immunity before the law no matter how much they insult we lesser races.

Oops! Sorry! I forgot - only white people can be racist! Damn, isn't that what you meant? I get so confused sometimes! I just find it so hard to remember that we white people are the bad guys and everyone else is good.

Repeat after me:

White skin bad; anything else good.
White skin bad; anything else good.
White skin bad; anything else good.

Go on, go on. Keep repeating it until you believe it.

It'll make you feel guilty and so much better.

Just so people know that this sort of discussion has been going on for some time, here is a quote from the great Lord Acton (1877):

"At all times sincere friends of freedom have been rare, and its triumphs have been due to minorities, that have prevailed by associating themselves with auxiliaries whose objects often differed from their own".

Stepping back a bit, I'm curious of the American fondness for conspiracy theories, such as the "9/11 Truth" movement and others. I've seen this runaway obsession over and over, and usually from Americans.

It wasn't meant as an insult when I suggested Thanos to take his 'evidence' to Daily Kos, though on reflection I can see it can be percieved this way. Taking it to LGF and get a pat in the back from the lizard king, as well as applause from the lizard army, is too obvious to even mention.

BTW, I find the commentary at Daily Kos much more useful than that at LGF. Like this book review of Conscience of a Liberal, which has the opposite point of view than the one I've been ranting about lately, Liberal Fascism. I usually disagree with Daily Kos, sure, but at least I learn stuff.

CJ paraphrased for:
"the de-nazification program in post WW2 Germany must have been a farce."

Certainly Charles is on a myopic segway on this one. I live here, and I know that the program was completely effective. Lots of books, movies and articles explaining the evil of Nazism have been published, and you need a fairly inferior IQ to still believe that Nazism has anything like merit. In Europe proper, that is.

Now, in Palestine on the other hand, there's a problem still. Facing up to the Palestine anti-Semitism is urgent, and the US government, as well as the Donors' Conference is a Bad Idea. This is real trouble, and real policy failures on major issues with a long term impact.

I have to say that as someone who deeply admires and respects Robert (and the rest of the scholars on JW) I am really disappointed to read some of the invective - misinformed and so hippocritical it beggars belief - here.

Why is it that NO ONE EVER calls black, asian, chinese - whatever - interest groups who only promote their own agenda (based solely on race) as nazis?

Why is it that London transport can offer jobs to graduates and totally exclude white, indiginous Britons and yet no one on here or anywhere else calls the labour party racists or nazis?

Get this: YOU ALL buy into identity politics. Don't start playing this dispicable race/nazi card when indiginous populations form their own interest group. It's either racism when ALL groups do it or it is not racist when ANY group does it.

This is one of the cleverest ways the marxist-socialist media controls this debate and maintains power for those who use multiculturalism to line their own pockets at the expense of the majority.

And a reminder: Nick Griffin our leader has stood trial twice, facing the loss of personal liberty because he dared to speak - and is still speaking - the truth about Islam. Not to mention violent attacks against members including women, and death threats against members from jihadists meaning members had to move.

What have the critics done? Have you faced prosecution from your own government? Have your families been attacked and the police did nothing? Have any of you here lost your jobs because of your support for a legal political party?

The namby-pamby liberals who live in -lala land and who start resorting to this "BNP are nazis" smear have absolutely no idea how bad it is in the UK for the poor bastards who are suffering the devastating effects of uncontrolled mass immigration and the horrors of living in ever-growing Muslim communities.

We have no-go areas in many communities - Oldham, Bradford, Glasgow, Manchester, Leeds, Ashton - I could list many more. So yes, sharia is alive and kicking in these places. Who speaks out about all of this?

The BNP do, they're the only ones listening and acting on behalf of these people whose lives are being torn apart.

If you don't know what is going on in the UK then please, either educate yourself about what we Brits are facing or do us the respect of politely remaining silent and let us get on with cleaning up the mess successive liberal-socialist governments have dumped on the British people.

Finally! Two sane posts! I can quit gnashing my teeth as I read this thread!

Ann:

Find your niche and work! Stop analyzing to death every word and every group and playing this intellectual one-upsmanship.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019648.php#c499772

OliverPCamford:

As yet no hero has emerged to give voice to ordinary man and woman, perhaps because the situation is not yet perceived to so dire as to warrant a following of such a person; but, believe me, we British will not give up our freedoms to Islam or anyone else (not even the US of A). When the moment comes, as it surely will, we will take action. The difficulty is that some of you think the moment is now. Obviously, we British don't! We could be wrong!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019648.php#c499827

Of course, Ann’s comment begs the question: what is effective action? And so I must ask the following questions, although I doubt anyone will read, being so late to the discussion:

Why is this even a topic of debate? Why are we [anti-jihadists] fighting about fringe parties that many—-rightfully or not—-see as tainted goods? How is fighting over the scraps an avenue to success when there is a whole majority on our side, whether they know it or not? How is this politically effective in anyway whatsoever? Where is the message of hope and freedom that attracts the average citizen—-no matter their color--to our cause? Why take a minority, bunker-down mindset into this fight? That is not attractive and it will not carry the day. Inspiration carries the day, not desperate counsels.

This fight is about ideas, not color. Why are we even discussing limiting our potential audience, who—-rightfully or not—-perceives a problem with these fringe groups because of their past/present identity politics?

I see comments above about the need for a Churchill, while others whine about a lack of good alternative parties. Someone correctly lists prominent anti-jihadists as the Churchills of our time. Have you read Manchester’s "The Last Lion: Alone"? Do you understand how utterly alone Churchill was politically in the 1930s, but yet he continued to act? That he was able to do so because like-minded individuals who were not in Parliament acted to support him? Depressingly, I see little constructive action from today’s supporting cast.

Someone above wanted a definition about desperation. I must ask: HOW can you be desperate if you have not yet BEGUN to fight? If the situation is as bad as you say, why-—in the name of everything holy and right--are you not fighting? Have you educated your family? Friends? Neighbors? Have you gone door-to-door? Several commenters above say that they cannot see a party that represents their viewpoint? If the situation is so dire, why the FIRE are you not organizing one that defends your national IDEAS in a way that not marginalize you? Why are you not running for political office… or doing the education needed to support someone who is like-minded? Why are you not engaged in non-violent protests? What are you waiting for? Why have not pledged your Lives, Fortunes, and sacred Honor to Freedom’s cause? Why are you not on your knees every free moment pleading Providence, asking the hand of the Almighty to turn the sinking ship about? The _beginning_ of desperation comes when you have exhausted these possibilities and are still losing. I see that the analogy of WWII is popular. Did Britain seek to ally with the USSR in 1939? Or did it happen when other possibilities and courses of action had been tried and failed? (France was lost… of course it helped that Hitler screwed up by breaking the truce with the USSR.)

I once had the pleasure of hearing Newt Gingrich address some Congressional Republican press secretaries. One wanted asked advice about what to do to change the culture in Washington D.C. city government, long dominated by Democrats. Newt related what the Republican party had started to do on the national level after Watergate, when they faced terribly long odds as the minority party (up until 1994). Besides attacking from the backbenches instead of accommodating, they looked to address the needs that the Democrats were not. At the time he spoke, D.C. city government was having difficulties with basic essential services (trash collection, paving). His suggestion: put billboards up with a number to call if one was dissatisfied. There is clearly angst to be exploited. Why are we not the ones exploiting it? Why are we not the ones winning the hearts and minds of the freedom-loving majorities in Western countries? Why are we setting ourselves up to possibly be the ones exploited (if the naysayers about these fringe parties are correct)? How is this smart politics?

If the situation is dire, the actions are: Educate! Organize! The message: Hope! Freedom! See what these can do. Quit waiting for a white knight, whining when he does not show up. Be the white knight (or, at least, his squire). One of the traditions, key fact-based mythos of the Anglo-sphere is the brave, creative, and free individual(s) who set their minds on beating the odds, challenging the hopeless situation, sticking to their guns, and pulling the chestnuts out of the fire. Why are you waiting for someone else to act? Those who advocate questionable alliances at this time take a perhaps fatally cynical position. In fact, the position legitimizes the multiculturalism that is eating the guts out of our societies by dragging the "race card" into play. Why play with it at all? Why resign yourself to a desperate last stand at the "barricade[s] with a flint lock pistol and sword"? Quit your whining. More John Paul Jones is called for. The fight for the Western mind is hardly joined. The sun has not just set. It is the dark hour before the dawn, the cusp of a new day. Carpe FARKING Diem. Hope, not fear, wins the day.

Rule Britannia God Bless America

Time for bed.

ophidian: Dear fellow, what innocence is yours. What simplicity and goodness you possess. We all wish that it were as simple as you advocate.

How some ever, no British person can be a white knight, as you advocate, nor a squire.

White = racist (a legal no-no)
Knight = aristocrat (a social no-no)
Squire = privileged landowner, absolute social death: a real no-no which would get one laughed out of court.

PC has already gone too far. We are impotent, for the time being, in the face of the enemy. Things have to get much more serious than this before we remember who we are!

ophidian: Dear fellow, what innocence is yours. What simplicity and goodness you possess. We all wish that it were as simple as you advocate.

How some ever, no British person can be a white knight, as you advocate, nor a squire.

White = racist (a legal no-no)
Knight = aristocrat (a social no-no)
Squire = privileged landowner, absolute social death: a real no-no which would get one laughed out of court.

PC has already gone too far. We are impotent, for the time being, in the face of the enemy. Things have to get much more serious than this before we remember who we are!

Matamoros

I have not seen the documentary you describe and accept your account. I am not a member the BNP or any other party but an outfit I have not heard of before called the libertarian Alliance (Google it) has drawn attention to what it calls the political persecution of the BNP.

They point out a quite correctly that by various means the government is making sure that its membership is confined to the semi literate and thuggish. I have previously posted about my own experience of a non-political Club which was infiltrated by the Government funded Searchlight organisation simply because unknown to us one of our members – a professional man - belonged to the BNP.

In East Germany this sort of thing was done by the Stasi, but in Britain we have, quote; Brave anti-fascist volunteers. How much courage is needed to spy on a dozen middle aged old windbags? We could of course have bored them to death but they did not give us time.

You are no doubt aware that any BNP connection will finish the career of anyone from a school bus driver to an architect.

The BNP claim, and I have no proof of this whatever, that the all powerful National Union of journalists has a standing instruction that all stories about the BNP will be negative.

With this in mind do you consider the documentary you saw surprising?

I have been looking at your posts for a year or so and cannot remember taking issue with any of them. But I always thought your or posting name was a little over the top. I know it's based on the name given to St. James by the Spanish but "Matamoros" - Moor slayer - on that basis some people might classify you as an extremist.


Posted by: Lionheart

If you don't know what is going on in the UK then please, either educate yourself about what we Brits are facing or do us the respect of politely remaining silent and let us get on with cleaning up the mess successive liberal-socialist governments have dumped on the British people.

I would be less polite than Lionheart

Shut the f-ck up This is not the time to slander the BNP or any of the other groups that are tackling the islamic invasion, because by doing so you are playing into the islamofascist hands. War has been declared.

Lionheart I have pasted your above comment on my site so as to finish the blog I a doing just now in responce to this threadThis is not the time to slander the BNP or any of the other groups that are tackling the islamic invasion, because by doing so you are playing into the islamofascist hands

When I first started posting at jihad watch the terror list @ Religion of Peace site listed 194o terror attacks. Now today the list reports 10384 attacks

Since I started visiting JW/DW the world has witnessed

Please read

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2008/01/to-bnp-or-not-to-bnp.html

Posted by: Fred

In East Germany this sort of thing was done by the Stasi,

Daily Express London,
February 8, 1999
MI5 act to smash race gangs
Secret service teams up with Yard to combat Far Right thugs

SCOTLAND Yard and MI5 are planning a huge covert operation to break up violent racist organisations. The Express has learned that Intelligence officers will infiltrate Far Right groups such as the British National Party.

Other officers will tap telephones, open mail, and scrutinise bank accounts and medical records. "We plan to close down these organisations by using every administrative device available to us," said a Yard source. "These may include tax and VAT details, local authority planning infringements and breaches of charity regulations. You must remember that Al Capone was brought down by the American Inland Revenue -- not the FBI.

At the end of the day we will know everything about the people in these groups, more than they know themselves." The operation is being masterminded by Deputy Assistant Commissioner John Grieve, head of the new Metropolitan Police race crime unit. He will work closely with the security services and the Yard's criminal intelligence unit.

Officers plan to apply the skills successfully used by the security services and the anti-terrorist squad against the IRA and Middle East bombers In London. Mr Grieve, former head of the anti-terrorist squad, is aiming to build comprehensive computer files on the country's active racists and their relatives and associates. "He will be using all his skills and techniques used against the IRA in the fight against the racial terrorists polluting our inner cities," said the source.

The files will detail racist groups' views and the extent to which they will use violence. It will also include a list of non-active supporters in key Government and local authority departments who are prepared to pass on vital information. The ultimate intention is to bring a series of criminal charges against the ringleaders of racist organisations and the thugs who follow them. "If it works, and there is no reason why not, it will mark a sea change in the way subversive organisations are policed in this country," said a senior detective.

Mr Grieve will draw on the resources of the National Criminal Intelligence Service, Department of Social Security, Inland Revenue, immigration organisation and Customs. Benefits agencies, local authorities, British Telecom, credit agencies, schools and other educational institutions will also be involved.

Just in case any LGF's are browsing here, note that the Lionheart who is called Paul Ray has stated on his blog that he is not the Lionheart posting on JW. So before you get all worked up about it, check your facts, I know this is a little alien to you but please check Lionhearts site where he points that out. Thankyou.

Bloody hell shiva!!!!

So we now have political persecution in the UK, it just goes to show how much of a fascist state the current UK government is, for all you pure as the driven snow bods, who are the fascists here?

That is quite simply frightening!!!


infiltrated by the Government funded Searchlight

A little more about Search light and where the likes of Mataros is coming from

It is in the interests of the general public that the full details of the activities of Gable and his magazine are revealed, as he pretends to be an ‘impartial’ opponent of the BNP whilst he himself is both a political activist and an active Communist Party supporter.

His ‘organisation’ is in receipt of funds from the Labour Party, money from Trades Unions that support the Labour Party. Furthermore, Searchlight has become involved directly in election campaigns by working with Labour Party activists and officers and candidates to attack the BNP.

Confirmation that Searchlight is in fact a Labour Party front organisation, has been confirmed publicly by Liam Smith, a Labour Party election agent in an election in Goresbrook, who was quoted in the media as saying that “(T)he Labour Party, Searchlight and the unions have formed a great team together and this sets us in good stead for next year’s all-out local elections.”

Furthermore, our article, as put on the website, is protected under the “Reynolds Public Interest Test” as reportage, which asserts all information of this nature is aired in the public interest. Gable is familiar with this case law, having used it himself in previous court actions.

When Labour MP Jon Cruddas cowardly used his parliamentary privilege to make public Searchlight lies about the BNP, he did so full in the knowledge that if he had made the same allegations outside the House of Commons, that he would be opening himself up to a libel action.

In such a unique case where Parliamentary Privilege was used to evade the libel laws, then it was clearly in the public interest for the source of the information to be questioned by us seeing as we were the victims of the attack by Cruddas.

Gable has also lost various libel cases in the past (as detailed here) and was also a member of a totalitarian organisation, The Communist Party of Great Britain, and stood in an election for that party, at a time in history when tens of millions of innocent people were being slaughtered by affiliated political parties directly linked to the British Communist Party.

To recap Gable’s open and verifiable Communist record:

Gable was a member of the Young Communist League and the Communist Party of Great Britain.

He started as a trainee journalist on the Communist Party’s Daily Worker.

After a year he left for what became a career as a Communist Party trade union official.
He stood for the Communist Party on Thursday the 10th of May 1962 at Northfield Ward, Stamford Hill, North London.
These links remain. In 1986 Searchlight was distributed by ‘Central Books Ltd.’, a Communist Party front that distributes various Marxist literature.
It is also of interest to not that Gable has a criminal record with several offences for burglary and theft. Amongst other things, he has been convicted of stealing a GPO pass card which was used in one burglary.

Arrested alongside Gerry Gable was Manny Carpel. Manny Carpel was convicted the year before of assaulting P.C. William Nield and of having an offensive weapon (a metal butcher’s hook). Later, when in court for setting light to a printworks in Uckfield, Sussex, and causing more than £50,000 worth of damage (November the 5th, 1980) he described himself as “a freelance journalist working for Searchlight”. Despite his previous convictions, Carpel received a mere two and a half year sentence on the 13th of April 1981.

The founders of Gable’s Searchlight operation are equally interesting. The Zionist terror outfit, ‘The 62 Group’ (supporters of the terrorist Beginite Herut organisation in Israel) was unofficially based in the Limbo Club in Soho. Gable was involved with the ‘62 Group’ and the Limbo Club was managed by one Harry Bidney. After his death Bidney was described by Searchlight as a “hero”.

In 1977, Bidney was found guilty of eight charges of living off the earnings of prostitutes. In court, Bidney was described as the company secretary of Calderhead Investments, which was headed by David Calderhead, who was jailed for, on his own admission, attempting to procure a 16-year-old boy to commit an act of gross indecency with the predatory homosexual Harry Bidney.

In the March 1997 edition of Searchlight, Gable wrote of his joy at having a 60th birthday surprise party sprung on him by his fellow Searchlight criminals. He listed pimp Harry Bidney as one of just eight “old and dear friends” who had “passed on”. But, Gable wrote, “(T)he evening did not pass without fond memories of you all”.

friends of Searchlight

Unite Against Fascism is a minor, self serving, political pressure group in the United Kingdom that campaigns against free speech and expression and far right-wing and fascist parties and groups in Britain, primarily the British National Party (BNP), which it identifies as the principal threat. Its aim is to "campaign with the aim of alerting British society to the rising threat of the extreme right, in particular the British National Party (BNP), gaining an democratic electoral foothold in this country."[1]

The group was formed as part of a coalition between the Anti-Nazi League and the National Assembly Against Racism, the TUC and leading British unions such as T&G (now Unite) and UNISON in response to democratic electoral successes by the BNP.

Its chairman is Labour Party Mayor of London Ken Livingstone, and its joint secretaryship is shared by Weyman Bennett, the national organiser of the Anti Nazi League and a member of the central committee of the Socialist Workers Party, and Sabby Dhalu, formerly of the National Assembly Against Racism (NAAR).

The organisation has signatories and members from across the political spectrum including MPs from all of Britain’s leading political parties and a number of members of the Labour cabinet. Other notable signatories included the late Holocaust survivor Henry Guterman.[2]

At Unite Against Fascism's 2007 national conference, speakers ranged from cabinet minister and convicted criminal Peter Hain to Edie Friedman of the Jewish Council for Racial Equality (JCORE)[3] and Dr. Muhammad Abdul Bari from the Muslim Council of Britain, as well as figures from the major UK trade unions.[4]

Unite Against Fascism often attempts to organise large protests against the BNP including outside the trial of BNP leader Nick Griffin and Mark Collett who were both found not guilty on race hate charges at Leeds Crown Court.

The anti-fascist magazine Searchlight disaffiliated from UAF after an argument over tactics to defeat the BNP

Shiva, you always have stuff that blows me away!

This is from Brett above, absolutely spot on:

'My guess is that the commenters who are up in arms about the possibility that an ally in the fight against Jihadism may have racist elements are mostly, if not entirely, Americans. (This would include RS, of course).

The theme of "white guilt" is relentlessly drummed into American students throughout their school career. A charge of racism in the US has an emotional power almost without equal. To even hint that one has racist attitudes or thoughts on US campuses is like confessing to be a serial killer.'

How true is that? But how much of a one way street has this become? Are there any reciprocal arrangements? This absurdity reminds me of Israel that gives on end while the Arabs murder on end.

Can we find some kind of balance here?

The Anti-Nazi League (ANL) was an organisation set up in 1977 on the initiative of the Socialist Workers' Party with some sponsorship (and a few small financial donations) from some trade unions and the endorsement of a list of prominent people to oppose the rise of what they deemed to be far-right groups in Britain. It was at its height between 1977 and 1981. The initial sponsors included Secretary of State for Northern Ireland), Ernie Roberts (deputy general secretary of the engineering union AUEW) and Paul Holborow (of the Socialist Workers Party (SWP)) Peter Hain (a former Young Liberal leader; then the communications officer of the postal workers' union UCW,

Lets look at peter Hain Peter became chairman of the Stop The Tour campaign which disrupted tours by the South African rugby union and cricket teams in 1969 and 1970. A 1972 private prosecution brought by Francis Bennion in regard to his leadership of the illegal direct-action interference with the tours resulted in a ten-day Old Bailey Trial with the jury failing to agree on three charges and hence he was acquitted on those charges, but Peter Hain was found guilty of criminal conspiracy and fined £200. He appealed against the conviction in 1973. The Court of Appeal dismissed his appeal with costs. As reported in the Daily Telegraph of 23 October 1973, the court said his conviction was "fully justified".

In 1976 Hain was tried for, and acquitted of, a 1974 bank robbery, allegedly having been framed by South African intelligence agents. Two schoolboys positively identified him. A deliberate "double" may have taken part in the robbery. Despite modern DNA techniques and mass fingerprinting now being available no further investigation of this unsolved case is known to have taken place.

In October 2000 he set up a war avoidance team to carry messages back and forth between himself the then Minister of Foreign Affairs in Iraq, Tariq Aziz (a matter then confidential which has since been put on public record in an interview with Mr Hain by the Today program). Team members who travelled repeatedly to Iraq on behalf of Mr Hain variously included William Morris (Next Century Foundation), Dr Burhan Chalabi (an Iraqi born British businessman), and Nasser al-Khalifa (the then Qatari Ambassador to the UK).

The "Guardian" newspaper, on 10/1/2008, noted that Hain was being accused of not reporting £100,000 in contributions. It later emerged that a large part of these funds were channeled through a non-operating think tank the Progressive Policies Forum.[8] A separate £82,000 was reported. On January 12, Peter Hain released a statement saying that, being busy with his government jobs, it was simply forgotten about, and said it was absurd to think any misconduct took place, and that he would pay back £25,000 of the money.

Talk about fascists

"A charge of racism in the US has an emotional power almost without equal."

Which is really weird. Sure, the charge of racism has a serious emotional charge in Europe as well, but some spurious lawsuits later it doesn't happen very often. It's a charge I'd counter with a libel suit any day.

But over here in Europe everyone except the most dim-witted know that racism is basically stupid and flawed. I don't care wether people I work with have fair or dark hair, blue or brown eyes, straight or crooked nose or a skin that looks like too much tanning.

What does matter that I can trust them others. People who subscribe to supremacist ideology (or religion - I'm sure you can name one :) are people I cannot trust. Which is unpleasent, but not enough cause for me to act unfairly against them. I just make sure not to leave myself vulnerable.

MeThinks America has an unhealthy obsession with racism that should have been buried deep in 1865 - no more, no less. I notice that Obama gets 83 % of the black vote - patently stupid. People *still* vote based on skin colour?? Get over it, please...

Matamoros.

While I fully concede that the BNP indeed has no political representatives in any position of high office, (other than that of local councilors). My contention that power will fall to them by default, is not based upon what the BNP actually stands for, though through the smear campaign, its enemies have managed to paint a picture of unreformable troglodytes. No, I believe that it will be the prevailing orders own actions which will finally grant power to the fringe movement that the BNP currently are. When the British people eventually wake up to the degree of betrayal, all the mainstream political organizations have their hands steeped in. They will turn to the only party which has stood in consistent opposition to that prevailing orthodoxy. Now given the aspirations of the Islamic jihad movement and its impatience to achieve its goals, events are likely to be pushed along at an accelerated rate, spinning totally out of control of the current governing body's hands. Jacqui Smith, and her latest piece of Orwellian doublespeak, simply confirms this trend. When the chips are down, people do not seek fox holes with blithering idiots, they seek those they would trust to hold their backs. Given that NuLabour has shown a marked preference to sell out to the biggest noise makers, I do not see the British people backing them for much longer. The political elites have backed themselves into a corner from which there will be no easy escape.

Would I prefer a world which was all rosy and bright sunshine, where people of all kinds respected each other, and were pleasant to each other...yes, absolutely...except that's not how the world is, and wishing it so, no matter how thoroughly Disneyfied, will not bring it about. There are simply far too many groups and individuals whose goals and ambitions clash with those of their neighbors.

shiva

How do the things you say refute what was uttered by BNP members in the documentary?

shiva

OT but any information on the Directors of Calderhead Investments? I had a very nasty business encounter with a firm (group?) called Calderhead ----- Ltd in the early 80's. They went bankrupt having ripped of a lot of small firms in the North of England. May not be the same people but it would be interesting to know.

BTW I read that Hains first recorded political act was at the age of 15 in his native South Africa. He gave a funeral oration for a (white?)man hanged by the aparthid government for planting bombs.

guftafs

I do not think they do but look at my last post.


A few questions people ;

1) Why is it 'racist' to organise to preserve the indigenous cultures of Europe (as opposed to the indigenous cultures of the rest of the planet)

2)Why is it racist to preserve the indigenous peoples of Europe (as opposed to preserving the indigenous peoples of the rainforest, Kalihari bushmen, Innuit etc etc)

3) Isnt the point of opposing the Islamification of Europe so that European nations retain their unique cultural and national traditions ?

4) Why is the BNP called 'racist' but all other races are expected to organise to preserve their culture and ethnic identity ?

Isnt it racist to deny whites the same rights as all other races ?

And by the way the United Nations International Conventions on the rights of indigenous peoples explictly state that organising politically to preserve ones culture and ethnic identity are legitimate manifestations of legitimate political parties.

Calling the BNP racist IS ITSELF AN ACT OF RACISM.

What sort of state of affairs is it when whites now call their own fellow whites 'racist' for doing what all other racial groups do .

Stop being so brainwashed people and break the reflexive media conditioning process that turns you into hypocritcal and illogical idiots.

The whole basis of Western Civilisation is logic, and this PC nonsense is a betrayal of our western civilisation and culture - and isnt that what we are supposed to defending ?

Embacing the priitive superstitious nonsense of political correctness as an antidote to Islamism is the actions of idiots not thinkers - its out of the frying pan and into the fire if we do that.

Get a grip.

Lee

guftafs

That post is a bit far back now but here is the most relevant part.

"You are no doubt aware that any BNP connection will finish the career of anyone from a school bus driver to an architect.

The BNP claim, and I have no proof of this whatever, that the all powerful National Union of journalists has a standing instruction that all stories about the BNP will be negative.

With this in mind do you consider the documentary you saw surprising?"

So here we have another example of people (largely outsiders) telling other people how they must live, what they must believe, and how they must conform. It doesn't look like there's is going to be a tidy solution to this.

I cannot speak to the details of these political parties. But the view of this situation from 35,000 feet is rather frightening. When you step back and look at what's happening here, you see a growing number of very anxious people who are being told they are bad, are insulted, or suppressed when voicing their very valid concerns though the only channel they have available to them. Their governments certainly don't seem to give a hoot. So what are they to do?

The LGF mob's ideological jihad does more to worsen the situation than help. Offering solutions to very real concerns and fears would be constructive. Instead we get see a 'Just tighten the lid on that pressure cooker!' attitude. Shouting people down and attempting to muzzle them is an extremely foolish course of action.

I do believe the self righteous do-gooders are assisting the ushering in of civil war from their lazy-boy chairs in California, far removed from the realities on the ground, far removed from the consequences of their jihad. Resentments can only flourish in this climate.

Lee John Barnes

1), 2) All instances of race-based discrimination is, of course, racist, and should be declared as such.

3) The Islamification of Europe is not a race-based phenomenon, it is an ideological one. Islam is a religion, remember, not a race.

4) See 1) & 2) above.

Fred

I wouldn't be surprised if what you say is close to the truth. And it is a truly sad state of affairs that discrimination based on race (against white) is protected by law. But how does that justify the race-based discrimination that BNP pushes?

The most ridiculous part of this whole hoohah is that people take the accusations that the BNP and VB are "fascist" at face value. If you're going to make statements raising the spectre of the Nazis and the Holocaust then there needs to be some elaboration of exactly how BNP/VB policies are going to precipitate another genocide. "Fascist" as George Orwell observed is one of the most vaguely defined political slurs in the dictionary, usually meaning nothing more than "someone with whose policies I radically disagree".

I object to defining as "fascist" anyone who believes that blood ancestry is a component of national identity. It is simply a non sequitur to state that since the Nazis believed in race, anyone who gives race a non-zero amount of significance is a fascist/neo-Nazi. I think that European nations should be forthright in reserving the right to preserve the demographic makeup of their countries such that those of the indigenous ethnic group remains a majority. What exactly is the problem with that? It is unrealistic to claim that ethnicity or race has no place in any nation's identity. Furthermore, the crimes of the Nazis to not oblige all other European nations to forfeit any effort to preserve their racial makeup as a precautionary measure against a reoccurrence. There is no obligation to dismantle ethnic or racial identities. Guilt simply does not transfer like that, it's like saying all males are obliged to commit suicide to help stamp out rape.

Recognizing that the English identity, for example, is primarily founded on the history and culture of a specific ethnic/racial group: White English Anglo-Saxons - does not exclude all other groups from having an attachment to "Englishness", it simply means that they relate to Englishness in a different way (historical connection, cultural affinity etc) other than blood.

I am suspicious of anyone who claims that fear of "Islamisation" is purely a matter of culture. Let me posit two hypothetical scenarios:

1. England remains 90% White but becomes majority Muslim through conversion of White English to Islam.

2. White English become a minority through immigration/birth rate differentials, and England becomes majority Muslim (the great mass of whom are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants).

Who can honestly say that the first scenario is as threatening to the English identity and way of life as the second? If you can't, then admit that racial concerns are part of your fear of Islamisation. The reason for this is that like it or not, most religions have one or another form of ethnic chauvinism embedded within them, and becoming a minority in a country with a majority group that is both of a different ethnic and religious identity means that religious conflict becomes a cover for ethnic tensions.

Also, anyone who wants to prevent "Balkanization" should oppose continued mass immigration, which is what produces fraction of previously homogenous societies along ethnic lines in the first place. Ditto for those who oppose authoritarian (i.e. "fascistic") government. Yugoslavia fell apart after the end of Communism because an authoritarian form of government is required to hold a grossly multicultural/multiracial society (i.e. one without a clear majority of one group) together. We can see this already in the West with creeping "hate speech" laws etc. With Communism and no longer able to fulfill this role, Yugoslavia fell apart. The Balkan conflict was solved by dividing the map up into relatively homogenous ethnic homelands. What is the lesson there?

I say let the immigrants stay, and oppose racially discriminatory laws against existing citizens, but do not forfeit the right to preserve the demographic status quo, nor the right to uphold a blood and soil national identity.

The law must be colour blind.

Nothing new here, I've seen this all before from the same folks who pop up anytime the leadership of VB is questioned.

They seem to have bottomless vats of bile, lots of strawmen to toss about; and that powerful argument "well other people do it too."

Apparently their parents never gave them the trope that goes "if the other kids all jump off a cliff..."

They will sit here and salt comments endlessly as long as people respond to them, it's time for me to move on since there's nothing here that changes the forty bullet points above, and nothing new to convince me to ally with VB.
Again all thanks for trying, I did listen but honestly you need to come up with fresh material.

Thanos

They're probably like me, too much spare time on their hands.

"Back to work, you people!"

"Fascist" as George Orwell observed is one of the most vaguely defined political slurs in the dictionary, usually meaning nothing more than "someone with whose policies I radically disagree".

It's a slur invented by Stalin to divert attention from the fact that he was personally in charge of the ultimate fascist abomination, the Soviet Union.

Fascism is a 'statist' ideology requesting the citizen to believe in the State and the Leader, to leave all authority and decisions to them and the corporate state, and then problems will be solved. That, of course, becomes a problem when the State and the Leader prove incapable of solving everyday problem, to which the fascist leadership usually responds by abandoning civil liberties and cracking down on dissent, in a vain attempt to protect the lie that the system is good.

I have always been sceptical of the 'Big State' idea, arguing that it leads to authoritarian rule and reward of the undeserving, that a lean state is better in the long run for all intends and purposes.

Related, it's worth noting that Vlaams Belang is solidly in the 'lean state' and civil liberties camp.

MeThinks America has an unhealthy obsession with racism that should have been buried deep in 1865 - no more, no less. I notice that Obama gets 83 % of the black vote - patently stupid. People *still* vote based on skin colour?? Get over it, please...

You are correct, Henrik.

I don't know if you ever saw the KGB defector Yuri Bezmenov's interview on propaganda an brainwashing. In it, he stated it takes an entire generation to either instill or purge a mindset. I believe what we are seeing now is a regurgitation of an indoctrination. Such religious belief are impervious to reason.

here's the link - it's worth a look.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=047_1181753664

Ernest, that video is a blast!

These KGB people really knew what they were doing...

Lee John Barnes

Good to see you here

Maybe you could if you have time give an insight to how the real fascists are

All the best

Shiva

Gates of Vienna has gone Right Wing Gramscian.

Their answer to the Balkanization of Euro politics (gays, women, blacks, etc) is to form their own subgroup.

Instead of trying to unite based on the common humanity of man they are going for ethnic identity.

i.e. they are playing into the hands of the Gramscians while believing that they oppose that philosophy.

They have, in other words, become unhinged. Funny to watch. Pitiful in result. I predict a civil war. Not too far off.

They love blood in the streets.

Gates of Vienna has gone Right Wing Gramscian.

Their answer to the Balkanization of Euro politics (gays, women, blacks, etc) is to form their own subgroup.

Instead of trying to unite based on the common humanity of man they are going for ethnic identity.

i.e. they are playing into the hands of the Gramscians while believing that they oppose that philosophy.

They have, in other words, become unhinged. Funny to watch. Pitiful in result. I predict a civil war. Not too far off.

They love blood in the streets.

Dumbledoresarmy,

A beautiful prayer. I remember Mr. Spencer, Hugh and Marisol in my daily prayers and call on all here who believe in prayer to do the same.

They are risking everything for this righteous cause.

M. Simon, you are propagating blood libel against my friends of GoV and myself. I quote:

"They love blood in the streets."

As for 'Gramscian', I have no idea what that charge means. I take it from your prediction of a civil war that it is something hideously evil.

However, I am unable to defend myself against this charge for the simple reason that I have no idea on earth what we are being accused of. Please elaborate...

For those here still interested in the real Jihad efforts out there, here's a weird one: We're pressuring Israel to supply electricity to Gaza, even though the engineers doing so are under Qassam fire'.

M. Simon.

Honest question. What is the 'common humanity of man?'

That reads to me as 'lowest common denominator'. That's kinda scary.

What are we to make of people to attempt set a higher standard?

So now I am the tool of a secret KGB plot, that's almost as fun as being part of the vast zionist conspiracy. Are you sure I'm not a Bilderberger or a trilateralist, or maybe a scientologist or moonie?

What Europeans do not get is that the US is the biggest hotbed of propanda, superbly crafted advertising, sly bunko schemes, agitprop, and political activism on the planet.

As such North Americans are much better than Europeans are at detecting bullshit, bias, moonbattery, and false claims. We grow up using the tools to do that because we have the most pervasive and invasive media in the world.

So the KGB, VB, Islamists, and anyone else can try while we laugh heartily at their inept efforts. All of it is countered over time, and in the end the truth wins out over taquiya, no matter who is peddling the tripe.

"eo-Gramscianism is a relatively new approach to the study of International Relations (IR) and the Global Political Economy (GPE) that explores the interface of ideas, institutions and material capabilities as they shape the specific contours of the state formation. It analyzes how the particular constellation of social forces, the state and the dominant ideational configuration define and sustain world orders. In this sense, the neo-gramscian approach breaks the decades-old stalemate between the so-called realist schools of thought, and the liberal theories by historicizing the very theoretical foundations of the two streams as part of a particular world order, and finding the interlocking relationship between agency and structure. The theory is heavily influenced by the writings of Antonio Gramsci. Furthermore, Karl Polanyi, Karl Marx, Max Weber, Niccolò Machiavelli, Max Horkheimer, Theodor Adorno and Michel Foucault are cited as major sources within the Critical Theory of International Relations."

OK, I now have even less idea what it means. You suggesting me that GoV should just plead guilty and shut down - over this drivel?

I'm not asking GoV to do anything Henrik. You asked what someone meant by Gramscian, I supplied the link. I wouldn't even still be here except my hosting service is having problems with the server my blog is on.

guftafs

Frankly I do not pay a great deal of attention to politics and can only say that the only BNP man I ever knew was emphatically not racist. He was still driven out of his family business.

BTW A liberal comedian proposed a final solution to the BNP on BBC Radio 4 sometime last year. To laughter and applause he said the best way to deal with the BNP was to take out all 800,000 people who voted for it put a bullet in the back of their necks. He had to apologise but has been able to turn it to his advantage telling everyone “Even the BNP don’t like my humour and their roots are in Germany” he did not of course give details as to why they objected.

What would have happened if had said that about anyone else?

Thanos, no need to get offended over this one, it was directed at M. Simons who charged GoV with being, emh, 'Gramscian', and I was honestly confused as to what that was, what makes it evil, and why it's the fault of GoV.

Now, at least, I can see squarely that it's complete drivel, with as little merit as the other charges hurled at GoV & friends. Thanks.

Henrik, who's offended? Not I.

It's not all about YOU, Thanos. To the extent that you can relate to it personally or take it personally is entirely a personal issue.

As the Alberta Human Rights Commission (Ezra Levant) debacle illustrates, civil rights advocates are only taught how to step on the gas pedal. They were never taught about the concept of brakes, much less the subtleties of when to apply them.

The pendulum has swung back past equilibrium, but but people do not know 'when to say when'. Their Pavlovian conditioning has made no allowance for it.

"Their answer to the Balkanization of Euro politics (gays, women, blacks, etc) is to form their own subgroup.

Instead of trying to unite based on the common humanity of man they are going for ethnic identity."

I think this is an understandable and justifiable reaction. It would be nice to believe in the Universal Brotherhood of Man, but abandoning group politics has to be reciprocal. Organizing politically along racial lines has been verboten for White Europeans since WW2. Unfortunately it has been unilateral, and we cannot wait forever for the goodwill to be returned. Time's up. Ignoring (or even showing hostility to) one's group interests when others are unapologetically advancing theirs is a recipe for collective suicide.

Ernest, do you have anything to refute Robert's statements, do you have anything to refute the forty bullet points above?

You are right, it's not about me, it's not about Levant, it's about VB and BNP.

To me It's more about cause and effect - and witch hunters.

Abandoning group politics does not have to be reciprocal.

A MAN does the right thing. A wimp joins in with what he hates for advantage. No different than Jews being Kapos for the Nazis.

I will not be a kapo for that which I am against.

I have personal standards. I will not give in to the gramscians.

Ernest:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Ah, I see M Simon has come over to post the same attacks he made at GoV, to wit:

No wonder Charles at LGF was disturbed. GoV is just another Gramscian site with a Right wing veneer and a left wing morality. National Socialism redux.

?????

As the Baron said to me," What th'????"

And I'll also put up my reply to Mr. Simon, made with all the gravitas such a comment deserves:

Well, M.Simon, I guess we just couldn't fool someone as discerning as you are, could we?

Our true selves were bound to be revealed by some intellectual genius one of these days.

Ah, well...the party was fun while it lasted.

Personally, though, I love my inlaid pecan Right wing veneer with the varnished whorls on the side. Can't hardly tell I ain't solid all the way thru.

But Leftist morality?? Hey, hey --whatever you're smoking, I want some...

BTW, not everyone agrees with Simon sez...

The Swedes' Forum Mot Islamering (Forum against Islamisation --i.e., FOMI) has just given Gates of Vienna an award as a "foreign anti-Dhimmi." We tied for third place with Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

'Gramscians'

That's possibly the weirdest strawman I ever heard of...

Fred

So you're basing your opinion of the BNP on one (1) friendship with "BNP man"? I don't want to be overly critical, but that seems to me a little shaky. And, yes, even though, media bias is a reality, disgustingly so, I have yet to be provided with concrete refutations of these two videos recording numerous offensive, racist and outright murderous statements of BNP members.

Hi Shiva,

How people love to use that word ' fascism'. It is protean in its mutability, an amorphous word, as slippery as wet soap, that means something different to everyone that uses it.

Its real meaning, the Corporate Fascist state that merges the State and big business minus Nordic Aryanist racism as per Mussolini(as opposed to National Socialism which is applied biology masquerading as pan-Aryanist politics)usually eludes all those who use it most - the left and the scaredy cats of the right who use it a totem to evade the ju-ju of being called 'racist' by the left.

The BNP is not fascist as it is ;

1) against the Big State and is based on localism

2) Is not racist in that it equates whites as superior - we just say that each people should have their own homeland where they can live in accord with their ancestral culture, traditions and way of life

3) Is not a party that stands for compulsory repatriation ( except for criminals, illegal entrants and bogus asylum seekers and Islamist terrorists that abuse their right to stay in our country)

4) Is not anti-semitic ( unlike the left and far left and liberals who are all pro-PLO/ pro-Hamas and anti-Israel)

Its about time white people grew a set of bollocks to be frank. This constant cringing to the ever growing power of the Ethnic Lobby groups and the destruction of our democracy under the Tyranny of the Minorities, shames us all.

Do those that call the BNP racist live in the real world - do they see the Affirmative Action plans for ethnics, the Positive Discrmination laws ( PC RACISM ) that reward underqualified ethnics whilst penalising whites solely becauser they are white or do they live in some sad little media manufactured reality where reality never intrudes.

Ever heard of The Death Angels, The Zebra Killings, the Beltway Sniper, the rapes of white prisoners in prisons, the epidemic of race attacks against whites, the Arabic racist Jihad to destroy whites - read a few of the comments here ;

The Global Jihad is also a race war against whites.


"Islam is an invention for the purpose of providing a religious justification for Arab Imperialism.

The Conquest is the reason and explanation for
Islam, not the other way around."

··· Islamic Historian Mohammad ibn al-Rawandi


"We will consider all white people the enemy."

British-educated bomb-maker Azahari Husin who died in the 2002 Bali bomb attack that targeted white tourists and killed 202 people.


"We shall export our revolution to the whole world: Until the cry "Allah Akbar" resounds over the whole world, there will be struggle. There will be Ji'had."

Ayatollah Khomeini


"The governments of the world should know that Islam cannot be defeated. Islam will be victorious in all the countries of the world, and Islam and the teachings of the Koran will prevail all over the world."

Ayatollah Khomeini


"Islam is politics or it is nothing."

The Ayatollah Khomeini


“ Perhaps the most important thing demonstrated by Ibn Warraq is that Islam is fundamentalist by nature, and not by some peculiar and aberrant recent development. All Muslims, not just the fanatics, believe that every word of the Quran is quite literally the word of God, absolutely and unquestionably true for all times, places, and people, and practically the same goes for the hadith and the sharia. Anyone who wishes to argue that the fanatics' interpretation of these elements is wrong and that a far more `liberal' interpretation can be made and that that is the real Islam, have really only their own tastes and inclinations to support them. There is no Pope in Islam, nor any Councils with authority to impose a Creed. The fanatic who thinks that all unbelievers should be killed has just as much authority as the Sufi who thinks that all religions are true and that even atheists go to heaven. Both parties could adduce Quranic texts and hadith to support their positions, and both would be drawing, in their own minds, upon the immutable word of God. As Ibn Warraq observes: `Even if we concede that Muslim conservatives have interpreted the sharia in their own way, what gives us the right to say that their interpretation is the inauthentic one and that of the liberal Muslims, authentic? Who is going to decide what is authentic Islam?

Another important achievement of Ibn Warraq is that he explodes the myth of Islamic tolerance, a myth largely invented by Jews and Western freethinkers as a stick with which to beat the Catholic Church. Islam was never a religion of tolerance and it is not tolerant by nature. Despite the way the apologists would like to depict it, Islam was spread by the sword and has been maintained by the sword throughout its history, not to mention the scourge and the cross. In truth it was the Arab empire that was spread by the sword and it is as an Arab empire that Islam is maintained to this day in the form of a religion largely invented to hold that empire together and subdue native populations. An unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will. Religious minorities were always second-class citizens in this empire and were only tolerated on sufferance and in abject deference to their Arab/Muslim masters; for polytheists and unbelievers there was no tolerance at all, it was conversion or death.

Review of “ Why I Am Not a Muslim" by Ibn al-Rawandi

Oops-- forgot the link to the award:

http://www.fomi.nu./phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7878

Even if you don't speak Swedish, you can pick out the phrases well enough.

Ms. Hirsi is a socialist and wants to close all the religious schools in the Netherlands -- which the Dutch, through great labor finally managed to get up and running -- but her heart is in the right place. Though I disagree with her leftist program, I admire her courage and sheer stamina. If even ten per cent of the Somalis in the Netherlands worked as hard as she did to assimilate, the political climate there would be revolutionized.

"A MAN does the right thing. A wimp joins in with what he hates for advantage. No different than Jews being Kapos for the Nazis."

No, the Kapos are the people who denounce the (super-)state's enemies as "fascists" for opposing the destruction of different national identities.

"I will not be a kapo for that which I am against."

Good for you. I don't have the same dilemma, since I'm not against acknowledging the reality of group interests, since they are objective and obvious realities. I don't know where all this "blood running in the streets" stuff is coming from either. It's the current misguided policies that are setting Europe on a path to civil war(s), not the alternatives. Immigration must be limited to a low rate that permits assimilation (or better yet zero), or else the French situation results.

Plenty of nations acknowledge ethnicity as part of their identity (Japan for example) and they're not up to their knees in blood. Ethno-states were the norm until 50 years ago, and still are outside of Europe/America. It's what works.

I think that a lot of this misunderstanding is due to the desire to universalise Americanism: i.e. the "melting pot society of immigrants" founded on ideas not blood and soil identity. That's fine for America, but not everyone wants that, and they're not "fascists" for saying so.

The problem I have with the PC LGFer-style anti-Islamist crowd is that they see Islamism as a speed bump along the road to the "universal global village civilisation" where regional group differences melt away and everyone sits down, eats McDonald's and watches Friends together. Someone who wants to preserve cultural and ethnic differences (like me) sees Islamism as a handy opportunity to demonstrate that utopian vision is never going to work anyway, and to be honest I'm glad it won't, because I don't want it in the first place. It's just Messianic One-World nonsense.

Is it just me or is everyone else sick of whining liberals and cowards syyaing ' I saw a video of someone filmed about fifteen years ago who used to be in the BNP saying something nasty and racist ".

Ever been in a pub full of whites in Bradford, the East End, Tower Hamlets, Leicester, Oldham and heard what they say in there - what sad white liberals and brainwashed white lemmings define as racism THEY KNOW AS REALITY.

Once you have been on the recieveing end of a racist attack or seen your kids grromed by asian / muslim paedophiles and turned into junie whores then you really know what racism is - unlike Ivory Tower white liberals that know about racism only via Hollywood.

Let me remind you what the so called non-racist governments of your nations do ;

They start wars and kill hundreds of thousands of people.

So whilst the BNP may have one or two idiots in it ranks, the governments of the UK are murderous rampaging scum that use the word 'racist' as a way to divert attention away from their own crimes and criminality.

Ever get the feeling you have been made a sucker.

The reason they call the BNP 'racist' is in order that they appear 'moral' whilst wading knee deep through blood.

And as for the BNP being 'racist' - the defintion of 'racis' is PREJUDICE + POWER = RACISM.

To be racist one must first have a POWER that one abuses to use in a way that PREJUDICES someone else on the basis of their RACE.

Seeing as the BNP have never been in power, never had a single elected MP (YET !) and have never passed any racist laws - then under what twisted anti-logic can you call us racist.

LOGIC PEOPLE !

LOGIC !

REMEMBER LOGIC !

The great invention of the West, that your little PC infected brains have lost in the rush to appear oh so humble and oh so non-racist.

A 'racist' is anyone the system hates and anyone the system wants other people to hate - havent you learnt that yet !

Racism is a political word that has no meaning and is used as part of the Marxist-Leninist Terrorism Of The Word.

Those that use the word as though it has any real meaning other than as way to discredit an oppenet without actualy bothering to use LOGIC IN A DEBATE are usually either criminals, corrupt, brainwashed lemmings or simply morons.

Lee John Barnes

the defintion of 'racis' is PREJUDICE + POWER = RACISM

No, it is not. It is judging people on their biological/chemical characteristics, ie, by birth.

Racism is a political word that has no meaning and is used as part of the Marxist-Leninist Terrorism Of The Word.

So you mean the phenomenon does not even exist? Interesting, please continue ...

Congratulations, Robert and the JW Team! Your site has managed to attract so many neo-Nazi supporters and sympathisers that the BNP’s top flight are now coming here first hand to cut and paste their party propaganda and their links directly into the comments section. Who needs Stormfront when they have Jihadwatch?

A bit disingenuous of him not to have made that clear in his posting, but Lee John Barnes is, if I recall, the BNP’s “legal advisor”(?), one of the “liberals” who are “modernising” the BNP to try and make it appear more respectable and less obsessed with Jews and Nazi-era rhetoric.

So it was a bit of a surprise to find the following on the website linked to in his signature.

“There is nothing more nauseating than a racist, extremist , terror supporting front group calling the BNP 'extremist'.

The Board of Deputies of British Jews, a grand sounding title for a clique of self serving Zionist racists, has written an article attacking the BNP in the Totally Jewish newspaper.

Interesting title for a newspaper Totally Jewish - does the title seek to imply that there are different degrees of Jews ? Perhaps the paper believes that the 'Total Jew' is a 'Zionist-Super Nazi' which is the ideal of a Jew whose bloodline is totally Jewish, who is an orthodox religious Jew and who is Jew who supports the concept of the Chosen People and the race state of Israel - in other words the Zionist-Nazi Superman.

Does the title Totally Jewish imply that those British Jews who are not 'Zionist-Super Nazis' are not true Jews, just as the Nazis thought the slavs were not true Aryans ?”

It continues on… and on…. and on… in a similar vein, but getting progressively worse. This is the kind of thinking that you’re allying yourself with when you offer support to the BNP - the sort of rabid anti-Semitic conspiracist rubbish that could have come straight from Julius Streicher. This is why the BNP is called neo-Nazi. And this, let’s not forget, comes from a website linked to by one of the BNP’s “reformers”.

Totally Jewish, by the way, is a website, not a newspaper. Great research, bit like the rest of the article. And the title “Totally Jewish”, far from being some huge "Zionist-Nazi-Superman" conspiracy, is a play on words, “totally” being a bit of a Jewish cliché for expressing enthusiasm for something (still, never let a fact get in the way of a juicy story about evil “Zionists“, eh?)

http://www.totallyjewish.com/

Matamoros

Is a zionist Jew a racist? Your thoughts please?

The problem I have with the PC LGFer-style anti-Islamist crowd is that they see Islamism as a speed bump along the road to the "universal global village civilisation" where regional group differences melt away and everyone sits down, eats McDonald's and watches Friends together.

Agreed. And that 'Universal Village', for some reason, seems to have American culture imposed on it.

Here in Europe I like to stick with my own culture, be friends with the Americans, and send reactionary, racist religions back where they belong.

This whole 'Turn-In-Your-Racist-Neighbour!' thing is utterly appalling.

Matamoros, you're scaremongering.

At least here in Europe we know that Nazism is utter folly. Anti-Semitism, unfortunately, is seeing a revival on the left side of the political spectrum, aligned with Islamists. That's pretty unpleasent.

If you sincerely wish to do something useful, please conctact the BNP and take up any problematic issues with them. Thank you.

To Matamoros who wrote,

“Congratulations, Robert and the JW Team! Your site has managed to attract so many neo-Nazi supporters and sympathisers that the BNP’s top flight are now coming here first hand to cut and paste their party propaganda and their links directly into the comments section. Who needs Stormfront when they have Jihadwatch?”

Please keep in mind that this is an un-moderated blog. I can assure you that when notified of overt racist statements, or statements that call for hatred of any group, they are removed. Such statements are not reflective of Mr. Spencer and he has made it clear, ad-infinitum, that they will not be tolerated. If you know of such statements, please e-mail them to Mr. Spencer. I repeat, send an e-mail. Mr. Spencer does not have the time to read every comment.

Please do not blame Jihadwatch. The goal of this site is crystal clear and its motives pure.

Lastly, your comment, “Who needs Stormfront when they have Jihadwatch?” is offensive.

Respectfully, Patagonian Plato

Posted by: Lee John Barnes

2) Is not racist in that it equates whites as superior - we just say that each people should have their own homeland where they can live in accord with their ancestral culture, traditions and way of life
Nice of you to admit the BNP is a White Separatist organization.

I'm sure everything would be just peachy if all the non-whites "went back where they came from", but what about mixed-race? How much "non-white" ancestry makes a person an Undesirable? One-eighth, perhaps?
.

Posted by: patagonianplato

Lastly, your comment, “Who needs Stormfront when they have Jihadwatch?” is offensive.
Matamoros is being sarcastic. He is referring to the VB/BNP supporters swarming the comments section of this entry and using it as their propaganda bulletin board.

With Henrik as "Moderator", apparently.

Posted by: Lee John Barnes

2) Is not racist in that it equates whites as superior - we just say that each people should have their own homeland where they can live in accord with their ancestral culture, traditions and way of life
Nice of you to admit the BNP is a White Separatist organization.

Where do you see anything about being a separatist organization, maybe you meant conservationist cause thats how it looks to me.


1) the defintion of 'racism' is PREJUDICE + POWER = RACISM

No, it is not. It is judging people on their biological/chemical characteristics, ie, by birth.

Racism is a political word that has no meaning and is used as part of the Marxist-Leninist Terrorism Of The Word.
So you mean the phenomenon does not even exist? Interesting, please continue ...

Point A) So yet again you have made up your own definition of racism 'it is judging people....' blah blah blah that proves my exact point. The defintion of racism is the one I provided and the one used in most definitions of racism, your definition of racism is meaningless nonsense.

Racism as used by the Liberal Left means nothing other than to the retard that uses the word to abuse someone. The word 'racist' when applied solely to whites is as much a term of abuse as the word 'n*****' when applied to blacks. It a word used to dehumanise and demean and to ostracise the individual. Only when society treats racism by all races as of equal evil and publicises the amount of racist attacks against whites will the use of the word racist against REAL racists be acceptable. Until then it is a political term designed to dehumanise all those WHITES that dare stand up for themselves against all forms of aggression and violence directed at them from non-White sources.

Point B) The phenomenon of racism as defined by the Liberals and used to condition the lemmings does not exist eg that it is solely a problem of whites and that ethnics are always the victims - but the REAL racism that does exist is the racism where whites are the victims of ethnic aggression and violence. Most victims of racism in the UK are white, but hey - they are whites so who cares right ! I must be a racist for daring to talk about the racism directed against my community - but if I were say black then I would be a hero for standing up for my community against racism. One hell of a double standard exists doesnt it. When whites talk about the racism they suffer they are racists, but when blacks etc talk about the racism they suffer then they are heroes.

Point C)2) Is not racist in that it equates whites as superior - we just say that each people should have their own homeland where they can live in accord with their ancestral culture, traditions and way of life

" Nice of you to admit the BNP is a White Separatist organization.

I'm sure everything would be just peachy if all the non-whites "went back where they came from", but what about mixed-race? How much "non-white" ancestry makes a person an Undesirable? One-eighth, perhaps?"

Never let the truth get in the way of a bad lie eh Goebbels. Where in that sentence does it state / imply white seperatism is part of the BNP policies ? It simply states that all people deserve and have a right to a homeland. Isnt that why we dissolved the British Empire and gave their nations back to the indigenous peoples we once conquered and ruled specifically so that we could ensure the NATIVE PEOPLE RULED THEIR NATIVE LANDS. It seems that its ok for blacks to demand their own countries and cultures such as in South Africa under Mandela or India under Gandhi but not whites eh.

Perhaps if the US and Israel had bothered to understand that the concept of indigenous rights means that they should have had some care and regard for the rights of the native americans / palestinians then both those nations would not be so hated, despised or ashamed of their actions as regards those indigenous peoples.

Or is Israel the only nation on the planet allowed to have a racial / religious definition of its citizenship that incorporates a diaspora who have never been in Israel but who are entitled to be Israeli simply due to their heamatology or theology ?

As for the Zionist-Nazi who posted above about my article on the Board of Deputies of British Jews ( A Zionist Nazi group which is the mirror image of the American Bund during the Third Rich era ))heres the full article on my blog ;

http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2007/12/zionist-front-group-attacks-bnp-zionist.html

There is nothing more hypocritical on this planet than a Zionist who attacks the BNP for daring to ask that Britain remains a country for the indigenous British and keeps its British culture. The chutzpah of such Kosher Nazi hypocrites is astonishing.

The mask drops further.

"Kosher Nazis". Oh, brother...

Keep prattling on, Mr Barnes. Convince us even more that Robert Spencer and Charles Johnson are on the mark here.

Spiny Norman

Nice of you to reveal your misunderstanding and white hatred in one simple post.

I would ask you why is it wrong for Britons to want to preserve their way of life and their traditions? Things that our forefathers fought for and died for, their legacy. It may mean nothing to you but I can assure you that many Britons just like me feel enormously proud of our magnificent history and the contributions the British people have given to the world.

Why do you feel you have the right to refer to us as "white separatists"? Why not "patriots" or "traditionalists" or just "Britons"? Could it be perhaps that you are racist? Or do you also levvy your misguided invective at the myriad of ethnic groups who pursue their own agendas excluding whites as they go? Ah, but in multicultural la-la land, only white people can be racist can't they?

And by your logic, you must therefore be in favour of 2nd and 3rd and future generations of "British born muslims" as they describe themselves, being allowed to remain in my country?

I tell you now - no way. Islam has no place in Great Britain and all "British born muslims" are perfectly free to worship the insane paedophile - in any Islamic country they choose. You,just like many others who have criticised the BNP have absolutely no idea of what is going on in my country. Go visit Glodwick. Go visit Blackburn. Go visit Bradford, Burnley (oh yes, there would be VERY informative for you) Stoke, Leeds, London. Go see what is happening and go ask the people how life is for them now they have been "enriched".

It's those people who are living the reality and not the liberal-marxists eager to cry "racist" at anyone who dares to oppose the multicultural horror being imposed on the British WITHOUT THEIR ASSENT OR APPROVAL. So much for democracy eh?

Lee John Barnes: Fantastic point regarding the support for Hamas,Hizbollah and the Saudis from the USA and of course Eurabia. And the people who voted for these anti-semites have the cheek to accuse the BNP of anti-semitism.

You just can't make this stuff up can you?

The current split in the BNP was triggered by the expulsion from the party of several respected and hard-working senior members, who had dared to point out the shortcomings of some of their colleagues - most notably Mark Collett - to the leader, Nick Griffin.

Griffin is widely acknowledged to have authorised both the bugging of the home of one of the modernisers - Sadie Graham (an elected councillor) - and of stealing some of her private property.

Those who have been expelled are the modernisers, although rather oddly they have been referred to as both leftists and neo-Nazis by Griffin's sycophantic deputy leader, Simon Darby.

Griffin appears to regard his own career as a politician - paid for by party members' subscriptions - as being more important than the future of the country and he is therefore determined to cling on to power regardless. This means, for example, that Collett - who has embarrassed the party on several occasions but who apparently is indispensible in Griffin's eyes - is still in favour.

The BNP can only modernise successfully - and thereby render itself truly electable - by removing Griffin and his cohorts.

You can read all about it here:

http://enoughisenoughnick.blogspot.com

Spiny norman,

I am not here to debate with you as you are a delusional hypocrite who has abandoned logic.

Therefore debate is superfluous.

My blog article should be read in full by all those interested in the facts, not your nonsense.

Let the people read the article and then let them decide whether the article is anti-semitic as you and your sock puppet matamoros have asserted.

As for the Kosher Nazism - sorry if you dont like it but Zionism and Nazism are the exact same mirror reflections of the other.

The Aryan Race = The Chosen People

Germannia = Israel

Zionism = National Socialism

Greater Israel = The Third Reich

The Stern Gang in Israel even offered to fight alongside the Nazis against the British army whilst the concentration camps were killing jews in their millions !

History hurts doesnt it when the truth comes out.

To whom it may concern:

I am going to ban this fellow Lee John Barnes forthwith, as we have seen enough of his repugnant views, but I have decided not to remove his posts. Since he has stood for office as a BNP member, the repugnant neo-Nazism and antisemitism he has displayed here should serve as a wakeup call for all those who come here wanting to defend the BNP on anti-jihad grounds.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a game Maoists play. Defenders of Western civlization, and of all that is humane in the world, should not be so willing to become like that which they are fighting in order to defeat it.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

On the general subject of political parties and racism, I don't think any can be regarded as squeaky clean.

Mainstream parties can show the same racism as those "overtly racist" parties they despise such as the BNP.

How many non UK readers are aware that at the last general election, the Labour party designed an election poster that depicted two leading Jewish Conservative politicians as pigs? It was pulled after massive criticism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4217009.stm

Perhaps this could be raised with Gordon Brown next time he visits the USA.

Oh, and "Everyone else does it" or "Those guys are worse" is never a good argument in favor of something. 10 times a day Islamic apologists write me about the sins of Christians and Christianity, as if they mitigate the Islamic jihad. They don't. Christianity could be the most evil thing in the world, and that wouldn't tell us anything about the jihad one way or the other. The mainstream British parties could be full of criminals and liars and thieves and racists, and that wouldn't tell us anything about the BNP one way or the other.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Matamoros:

Congratulations, Robert and the JW Team! Your site has managed to attract so many neo-Nazi supporters and sympathisers that the BNP’s top flight are now coming here first hand to cut and paste their party propaganda and their links directly into the comments section. Who needs Stormfront when they have Jihadwatch?

You, sir, are a smear artist. I have made my positions clear again and again, and for you to come in and imply that Jihad Watch is neo-Nazi on this thread in particular demonstrates that you have no sense of fairness or decency, or any interest in the truth.

On your way out (for you will, alas, not be back), read that bit above about comments being unmoderated.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

All Dewinter had to do was renounce his former statements on White Europe, and then live that reality in VB.

He failed to execute this, and now we have what is surely an event consonant with that.

His failure to do this is SIGNIFICANT. It has meaning.

It is sad.

Mr Spencer, IMHO, you did right in leaving the galactically execrable John Lee Barnes' posts up in case anyone wonders about the BNP.

White Europe, Shariah Europe ... unacceptable. Antibiotic resistant salmonella or botulism.

The late, now-banned Barnes wrote, inter alia:

The Global Jihad is also a race war against whites.

This is a prime example of the kind of red herring, or white herring, that diverts energy and attention from what it should be on, and empowers the jihadists and their allies.

There is no shortage of white Islamic jihadists and white Muslims in general. They are not "self-hating" whites. They are adherents of an ideology that is interested in killing, converting, or subjugating not all whites, but all non-Muslims.

If Barnes were correct, there would have been no jihad against the Hindus. The Thais. No jihads in sub-Saharan Africa.

If Barnes were correct, Hajj Amin Al-Husseini would never have been able to recruit white Bosnian Muslims to fight in the SS. And there would be no, or very few, jihadists among native Muslims in the Balkans. Or Chechnya.

The Global Jihad is not a race war. It is a religious war. Israel is on the front lines of it. And this BNP op is calling them Zionazis.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

epamonidas:

All Dewinter had to do was renounce his former statements on White Europe, and then live that reality in VB.

He failed to execute this, and now we have what is surely an event consonant with that.

His failure to do this is SIGNIFICANT. It has meaning.

It is sad.

Yes. I agree completely.

Mr Spencer, IMHO, you did right in leaving the galactically execrable John Lee Barnes' posts up in case anyone wonders about the BNP.

Thank you. When someone like Matamoros comes in here and starts smearing me on the basis of unmoderated comments, well, I think I'd like to have this example here in the archives.

White Europe, Shariah Europe ... unacceptable. Antibiotic resistant salmonella or botulism.

Yes.

Isn't free speech fun? Those Canadians don't know what they are missing!

Anne,

Indeed, but we're not allowed to tell them.

Yrs
Robert

"All Dewinter had to do was renounce his former statements on White Europe, and then live that reality in VB."

Actually, he has clarified and stated that those words (and it was spoken way back in 91, I believe) were intended as a metaphor, referring to Europe where the principles of enlightenment and reason rule, or words to that effect.

He was sad to see it as implyng racism, which back then was a non-issue in Europe. That was not his intention, and it isn't today.

The details (I'm paraphrasing here) are somewhere in the piles of CVF.

I think it's quite unfair to keep bashing the entire Vlaams Belang, which has completely cut all ties to any White Supremacy groups more than 15 years ago, without taking the time to dig out his comments on that unfortunate statement.

This commentary has really deteriorated. You folks could never accomplish anything together.Robert and Hugh are doing a wonderful job but I think I will not bother reading the comments in the future.

I guess all in all free speech is a calculated risk. Over the long haul, common sense will prevail if people are allowed to say what they think (all though in the short run they might fall victim to flying saucers, koro, and fibromyalgia).

Robert,

Sadly for us in the UK, not one of our politicians will stand up to the rise of Islamism and high levels of immigration. We're now the most highly populated nation in Europe.

Muslims are given preferential treatment at the expense of the indigenous population here, and quite rightly, people are pissed off.

The increasing popularity of the extreme right is a knee jerk reaction to the way this communist Labour government has ripped away the heart and soul from the very fabric of this once great country.

I checked in here last night around 10 p.m. and thought that you all were wasting hours of precious time and brain power discussing who is and who isn't racist and I see you are still at it.

How much work could have been done in that time toward defeating the real enemy? Instead we bloody each other! And, incidentally fall into the trap of the multiculturalist left.

Why do we admire and respect Robert? Because he has worked and studied hard and can give us facts about Islam that we can use. As trite as that old saying is, Knowledge is Power, it is still true.

Each of you who cares about the future of western civilization must now find your niche and go to work.

Start a blog dedicated to researching some portion of the Islamist agenda. For example, last spring, a friend and I started researching refugee resettlement because we noticed church groups bringing many Muslim "refugees" to our county. We aren't by any means experts, but we have learned a lot which we hope we are passing along for others to use through our blog Refugee Resettlement Watch.

You cannot count on the mainstream media doing any investigative work while you wait to blog on what they say, you need now to be the investigative reporters.

We need research blogs on Muslims in the Military, on the diversity visa program, on the Muslim groups receiving government grants in the US, on Sharia banking, on illegal immigration and Islamists, on women's issues regarding Islam. We need a blog just devoted to giving us news from Congress relating to the Islamist agenda in Washington.

We need to stop all this talking and do something!

Re: Frank,

what I'm saying is the 'racism' thing doesn't scare us, it shouldn't scare us at all. And yet, the race-thing is the bogeyman that scares the hell out of everyone because we're so indoctrinated and conditioned.-Sheik

Absolutely. It's a hustle. The only culture that has become honestly self-critical re race is Western Culture-particularly the Atlantic explorer nations. They came late to the game of Empire but their influence is now world wide. (BTW, the Brits, though they were sometimes scumbags, by and large behaved better than most in the respect for "native cultures". The Spanish were about as bad as the Muslims in Hindu India).

Muslims (especially Arabs) are very phony on the matter. It's quite funny to see Saudis claim "racism" when they arrive in the US from a country that treats non-Arabs like crap. It's amazing what they think we don't know.

Sheik, the Muslim hustle is not working anymore. We now know more about them than they would like us to know.

This is very disappointing to say the least. What should be a European issue is being distorted and Americanised. The lack of understanding here is shocking. Truly shocking.

According to Robert, the enemy we British face is just Islam. This view - although clearly we face an Islamic threat - is myopic.

The uncontrolled mass immigration into Britain is a race war Mr Spencer and that includes your crackpot Muslim fanatics. We in Britain have been subjected to marxist-socilist rule since the mid-1960's. The goal is to destroy British society.

They are doing a great job. Vast numbers of immigrants now swamp our land and the British tax-payer pays ever increasing levles of taxation to support the welfare state needed to support this influx.

Global capitalism is also in on the act. The drive for continual growth sees corporations built off the sweat and toil of British workers up root factories and relocate to wherever the cheapest workers are. Cadbury's has recently relocated to Poland. Fjordman has brilliantly described this curious alliance between marxists and capitalists.

We have socialist politicians with million pound property portfolios and whose kids go to private schools. We have socialist politicians being funded illegally by business - and nothing happens. Peter Hain, Tony Blair and Harriet Harman take a bow. It is detestable what they do.

Our sovereignty has been signed away in the criminal Treaty of Lisbon. An act of betrayal that took place without the assent of the British people.

And immigrants flood in. They claim welfare they are not entitled to and they vote for socialists -can you see how this works Mr Spencer?

Not only do they do this to us but they then take our taxes - fuel duty in Britain is astronomical -and they use it to fund hamas, hizbollah, the "Palestinians" - all on top of the trillions we give the Saudis for their oil. The EU - not VB, not FN, and most definitely not the BNP - hates jews and they long for Israel's destruction. A reporter on the BBC cried on hearing the death of Arafat - a man who fleeced his own people to fund his wives taste for Parisian fashions. You tell me - what's going on?

The EU is also making criticism of Islam a hate crime. This is only part of what is being done to the British and other EU nations.

The BNP is the only party speaking out against all of this - the corruption, the immigration, Islam, and global capitalism.

You may not want to hear that it is a race war Mr Spencer but it most certainly is and Muslim immigration is just one part of a very real attack on the indiginous British people and their traditions, history, heritage and way of life.

I and people like me are waking up to the nighmare and the BNP are the ONLY party, the only hope we have of fighting back, that's why I and many others support them.

Insanity reigns in Great Britain and it breaks my heart to say it.

Posted by: watling

Griffin is widely acknowledged to have authorised both the bugging of the home of one of the modernisers - Sadie Graham (an elected councillor) - and of stealing some of her private property.

Now watling thats not quite the truth

#1 Sadie Graham was suspected of being a MI5/Searchlight infiltrator

#2 Sadie Graham along with Kenny Smith and Steve where Blake bugging and intercepting the internal confidential e mails of their colleagues, passing those stolen e mails to each other and then posting them on Lancaster UAF in order to incite dissent within the BNP

#3 The so called private property, was a computer that belonged to BNP

Posted by: watling

Griffin is widely acknowledged to have authorised both the bugging of the home of one of the modernisers - Sadie Graham (an elected councillor) - and of stealing some of her private property.

Now watling thats not quite the truth

#1 Sadie Graham was suspected of being a MI5/Searchlight infiltrator

#2 Sadie Graham along with Kenny Smith and Steve Blake where bugging and intercepting the internal confidential e mails of their colleagues, passing those stolen e mails to each other and then posting them on Lancaster UAF in order to incite dissent within the BNP

#3 The so called private property, was a computer that belonged to BNP

I keep thinking of Robert's description of the Quran as I read many of these posts. Unless you know some background (Sadie Graham, e.g.) one is clueless. We need someone to blog this thread for the sake of the clueless (like moi).

kgs59:

"Vlaams Belang should take advantage of the moment, and once and for all, dispel the rumors and uncertainties surrounding their supposed ties with other "well known" racists groups and be done with it... I cannot see why they shouldn't do so again [i.e. they already did it at least once!], this time in a public manner which would go a long way in helping to dismiss the concerns of others."

If I were a VB member, I would be insulted by these calls to "dispel the rumors".

Asking someone to "dispel rumors" that

1) you have already taken the trouble to discount at least once before

2) that are being slung around by people playing fast and loose with facts and not offering respectable argumentation

is insulting. It is tantamount to slander.

No, it is on the contrary you tarrers-and-featherers of VB that need to "take advantage of the moment, and once and for all, dispel" the smell of your irrational blackballing tactics.

A little fighting is good...

Quotes of American founding fathers on other founding fathers...


Thomas Jefferson on John Adams

"He is vain, irritable, and a bad calculator of the force and probable effect of the motives which govern men." (from The Book of Political Lists from the editors of George Magazine, Random Ventures, Inc., 1998)

John Adams on Thomas Jefferson:

"[He has] a mind, soured, yet seeking for popularity, and eaten to a honeycomb with ambition, yet weak, confused, uninformed, and ignorant."

(http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1968/5/1968_5_112.shtml)

Alexander Hamilton on Thomas Jefferson

"The moral character of Jefferson was repulsive. Continually puling about liberty, equality and the degrading curse of slavery, he brought his own children to the hammer, and money of his debaucheries." (Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, 1833)

Thomas Jefferson on Hamilton

"I will not suffer my retirement to be clouded by the slanders of a man whose history, from the moment at which history can stoop to notice him, is a tissue of machinations against the liberty of the country which not only has received and given him bread, but heaped its honors on his head."

(http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1968/5/1968_5_112.shtml)


And on and on this goes...

Not even George Washington was safe...

Tom Paine says of Washington

"As to you, sir, treacherous in private friendship…and a hypocrite in public life, the world will be puzzled to decide whether you are an apostate or an imposter, whether you have abandoned good principles, or whether you ever had?" (In Inventing a Nation by Gore Vidal, page 131)


Hell, if someone had said this about anyone in this comment tread, they would have been kicked off for slander! This is how any great movement works...strong headed people smacking each other around until a few good ideas are agreed on by everyone. Live with it...and enjoy!

I once worked for a local government department, in a northern town here in the UK, as a training manager. The training centre specialised in civil engineering at operative level for highway maintenance. Although manager, I would occasionally conduct practical training in my own area of expertise. During one such course one of the delegates was of African descent who found the training quite difficult to master. The problem he had was co-ordination when operating a particular machine. This was not uncommon and many people found it difficult. However, as a result he could not be issued with a 'competency' certificate as use of the machine was vital to the task and being unable to operate it correctly would have endangered others working alongside of him.
The outcome of this was me being summoned to the HR department to explain why this particular individual had failed the course. I took with me the course competency standards and gave the interviewer the very reasons why it would be criminally negligent to allow someone to operate within the workplace who could not match the required standard. This was, what seemed to me, to be accepted grudgingly.
I did remark that such an interview had never occured previously even though several people had failed that particular element in the past. I was told that the interview was necessary in order to eliminate 'racism' from the workplace.
I was astounded. I asked if I was considered 'racist' for making a judgement on someone's lack of capability when that person was black? The answer I recieved was even more astounding. I was told that my decision had greatly upset the individual and visible ethnic personnel already had a disadvantage therefore I ought to have been more leniant in my interpretation of the standards in this particular case.
So, I can only assume that it is more morally acceptable to place peoples lives and well being in danger than to hurt someone else's feelings because of skin colour.
It is pertinent to note that for the next two years I was required to attend every 'racial awareness' and 'sensitivity' training seminars that took place. Until I finally could not take anymore and resigned.
It is this sort of thinking that has resulted in the various posters on this article to get at each others throats. It is so easy to label someone 'racist' when there is no hard evidence to support that charge. But once the charge is made it is so difficult, nay, impossible to defend.

Posted by: Frank

I keep thinking of Robert's description of the Quran as I read many of these posts. Unless you know some background (Sadie Graham, e.g.) one is clueless. We need someone to blog this thread for the sake of the clueless (like moi).

Well Frank the point is if people are clueless because they don't know the background, then they don,t have a clue as to what is going down in the UK.

Then isnt it better to do some research before they start slagging the one group that is prepared to face the monster.

The monster being not only Islam but the corrupt Trade Unions, politicians,and the police who are protecting them

I shall sign out now with a post that was sent to my blog that I think is very relevant

And last but not least, as we approach the one year anniversary of Dominic's passing . . .a haunting comment placed at DW on last day of 2006:


I could not agree more with your last post if I tried. Yes, of course, moslems are an alien body in our midst. Every day in London - on the tube, in shops, in parks, whilst shopping, whilst going about the 101 tasks that make up an average life - this is borne in on me.

In London today moslems dress differently, are rude to locals, jump queues, shout at us, wave their fists at us, call us 'worthless infidel' in public and in loud voices. I have, just four days ago, been elbowed aside by a moslem couple, with sidekicks, whilst trying to top up my Oyster card at a tube station at the automatic machine. Apparently, I had taken longer than the ten seconds that they were prepared to wait and so three burly males forced me aside and, when I objected, pushed me to the floor and - quite literally - and took over the machine which I was attempting to use.

Not, in a crowded and impatient city like London that this was a surprise, but that in this instance that I was insulted by these people was a surprise. The eldest male in the group, dressed in the usual and ridiculous garb of mohammedans everywhere, looked directly at me amd said, in quite clear English, (and I quote verbatim) "Get out of our way infidel slave".

You may imagine how I felt at that moment. To be so insulted in my own capital city was stunning. It took all my self-control not to do something rash at that moment.

Knowing that CCTV cameras would have captured this incident I complained, some three hours later (after having completed my journey and return), to the British Transport Police on the Broadway. I need not have bothered. Not only would no-one there take my complaint of 'technical assault and insult' seriously but no-one to whom I spoke was even prepared to initiate any paperwork whatsoever nor were they remotely prepared to find and look at the video recordings. Indeed, one Officer even said to me that I 'should swallow my pride' and live with it because - and, once again, I quote verbatim 'you are just being racist and you have to remember that it's cultural with them'.

Obviously, at this point, I indicated that I felt that I had been physically assaulted and that I would really like to have my complaint investigated. Well, this is really where everything about that evening begins to stick in my craw. When I said that, the Officer of the BTP who was listening to me actually cautioned me and warned me that if I persisted with making a nuisance of myself I would be charged under the The Race Relations Act 1976 and the RRAA (Race Relations (Amendment) Act) 2000.

I gave up at this point. Cowardice is sometimes the better part of valour. But, damn it, they won, didn't they? I have been intimidated into a dhimmi position by them and the very powers which should have protected me in my own country.

"Happy New Year everyone", I say in a bitter tone of voice.

Dominic.

The pro VB/BNP arguments just seem to me to be so much navel gazing, and, quite frankly, stupefying. Western Europeans aligning themselves with groups or parties that have even a whiff of "white power" under the auspices of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend?" Where the hell are your grandfathers? Because I assure you, like mine, they have been to that circus and seen that swastika draped elephant.

I'm not kissing anyone's ass, but Mr. Spencer showed up in the comments a while ago and made a helluva point. Fascist islam has NOTHING to do with race. So why align yourself with fools who wish to make it so? That way lies death & destruction. Make it about race and give these parties credence, or, worse, power, and once the muslims are wiped out you can bet the jews will be next up to bat. After that who knows. You'd trade one hell for another down the road if it might rid you of a particular meddlesome priest (imam)?

The mass jihad and drive for allah's devine global caliphate is not a war against whites...or blacks, or asians, or slavs, or latinos, or malaysians. It's a savage religion's 7th century, ideological, blood cult war against KAFIRS. Atheists, agnostics, christians, jews, hindus, bhuddists, taoists, shinto, pagans, etc. In other words...ALL OF US who dare invite the "prophet" to go pound sand up his butt. It is a war against those who refuse to submit to islam. It's an all out war against freedom. Nothing more. It has to be fought and it has to be fought to the death. I just can't imagine that finger pointing and "white pride" political parties is the way to do it.

shiva-

Such behavior by the muslim supremacist covers oceans of insecurity and weakness. Arrogance is always a cover for weakness. The arrogance always is paid back in their own coin. The Nazis were similarly arrogant but wined when organic justice reached them via British and American bombers.

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind"– Arthur Travers Harris

Ok, now my blood is a little up...

Here is what Charles Johnson says about Oriana Fallaci:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?link=5675_%93Traitor%94_-_in_a_Eurabian_context

"Strommen's article is interesting; I had to verify his claim about Oriana Fallaci's "Force of Reason." He says she cites three well-known antisemites/Holocaust deniers as examples of people being persecuted for anti-Islam writing, including the infamous Robert Faurisson -- without mentioning their sick ideologies.

And you know what? He's right. She does exactly that. It's on page 26 in my Rizzoli International edition of the book. The other two she cites are Erwin Kessler and Gaston Armand Amaudruz, and she says nothing about their repellent beliefs.

I had not noticed this when I first read the book, I admit. My impression of "Force of Reason" is that it was written in a very rushed way, almost feverishly. She was quite ill when she wrote it, and the charitable way to look at this is that she simply was going too fast to stop and explain the context.

But it is troubling, I have to admit."

"Troubling" ???? How so? That was not the purpose of the book.

Now is he going to drag Oriana Fallaci into mud also? In truth I don't care about the BNP and VB. I don't think they are as "important" as Johnson seems to think they are, but for the sake argument let us say he is right and they are the spawn of the devil. Joseph McCarthy at first was right too. There was communist in the U.S. Government, but he went too far when he went after the U.S. military.

What troubles me is his zeal on this issue. Be careful...don't drag that dead hero into this fight.

Johnson is perhaps starting to go "Napoleon" on us...

Henrik, why don't you try to get me banned here as well?
Again, ANYONE who has heard the Shire Network News podcast (THIS FALL) interview with Dewinter where this is taken up explicitly is welcome to make up their own mind. Please do.

My opinion is he is quite smooth, but his metaphor line is an excuse for NOT disavowing the statement. I invite all to listen. IMHO with every person hearing him, VB's underlying problem will be clear. Even, one would think cynical reality would have caused him to find a way to reject that as a misstatement of some kind. But he doesn't because he can't get 'outn*ggered' to his base.

It's the CCC plain and simple.

I will remind all of what I was reminded of this AM, that the KKK in LA in 1980 endorsed Ronald Reagan without his knowledge, or his people's... but as he found out, his reaction was swift and sure and unequivocal.

Racism has no 'wing'.

BTW if I had to guess at Ms Fallaci and scum like Faurisson (the denier whose book carries a dedication from Chomsky)... it's her illness. If a DK Goodwin can make an error (and get accused of plagiarism), I'm thinking Oriana Fallaci catches some major slack here. A point Johnson makes.

patriotpaladin, my friend,

You are on the right side. You are a follower of the TRUE true path, and grounded in New England bedrock wherever you are.

Thanks for your kind words. I think YOU'RE the funny guy, in a helplessly well-meaning sorta way. Charming and perceptive, I might add.

Sorry about Matamoros. There are plenty of bigmouths around, but it never pays to insult your host, sticking him unjustly, reopening a wound.

J C of 3 (my Borg Designation)

Frank,

The UK needs another "Bomber" Harris, needs 'em by the score.

I see the Vlaamspologists are still here pimping their swill.
Here's the words of the opportunistic Nick Griffen, courtesy that raging leftist, Oyvind Strommen:

"We should be positioning ourselves to take advantage for our own political ends of the growing wave of public hostility to Islam currently being whipped up by the mass media. This is not a matter of dancing to neo-con tunes, but of finding members of the public who are already used to the sound of that kind of music willing to cross over and dance to our tune.

For reasons of natural sentiment and neo-con war propaganda alike, the public will not join in any group dance which appears to include Muslims (in Britain and Europe in particular) or A-rabs (in the USA especially). And the more of our boys who come home in body bags, and the more the irresponsible neo-con project inflames the Islamic world against us, the more strongly this factor will affect the political climate.

In the real world, it doesn’t matter in the slightest whether the Danish cartoons furore or 9/11 were the work of Islamic fundamentalists with huge levels of support among ‘ordinary’ Muslims (for the record, my belief); or of Muslim extremists who no more represent mainstream Islam than the KKK represents white America; or of CIA or Mossad black bag teams seeking to stampede us into World War Three.

[…]

From the point of view of those of us working and organising to save the nations of the West and the great race that built them from irreversible subjection and subsequent extinction, it really doesn’t matter which group Providence has chosen to drop - at the eleventh hour - a giant spanner into the works of the multi-culti tolerance machine, and of the even bigger debt-recycling contraption that passes for the American economy on which it is perched.

Who dropped that spanner, and why they did so, will be a matter of interest to future generations of historians, and even perhaps the next generation of Western politicians. But for our generation, such arguments are - like putting ourselves in a position where the public could be persuaded that we are sympathetic to the enemy in the now unavoidable Clash of Civilisations - a luxury we cannot afford.

All we need to know is that the spanner has been dropped in among the whirring, clanking cogs and wheels, and that pieces of the multi-racial genocide machine are already breaking and flying off as a result. Sooner or later, one of those pieces may well in turn foul up something in the workings of the debt-recycling machine, and then opportunity will knock for those who are already organised and positioned to take full advantage of it."

Seems like the anti-jihad movement is being used to me.

All anti-jihad activity is viewed with suspicion by the European general public because the majority of muslims in Europe are non indigenous Europeans!

UK = Pakistani/ME
Germany = Turkish
Spain = North African
France = North African
Netherlands = North Africa/ME

It's impossible to fight the Jihad without being branded as a racist or a bigot. This is why we need more Ayaan Hirsi Ali's other wise we all look like a bunch of white male and female bigots.

epaminondas

Wack a dead woman...huh.

When will Johnson take some flak for being a GOP hack?

That is what his site is now: GOP HQ. No different then Daily Kos is DNC HQ.

Don't call yourself a anti-jihadist unless you have the guts to critize BOTH political parties for their sell out of the USA to the Arabian oil trade. That is far more important then two stupid little european political parties, who will have no bearing on the future of this nation or even of Europe.

I view him at times like a internet version of Sean Hannity....he is too smart for that or at least I thought he was.

He better wake up soon. The GOP went south a long time ago.

Thanos

"Seems like the anti-jihad movement is being used to me."

Nice..Is the GOP being used?

"The Pot Calling The Kettle Black"

Frank,
The UK needs another "Bomber" Harris, needs 'em by the score.
Posted by: John C at January 21, 2008 5:12 PM

Times are changing. We are moving into a severe (world-wide) economic crisis and the US is not rich enough anymore (relative to the rest of the world) to open up our markets and stoke the world economy. We can't do that anymore. That role we played in that will be missed by them. (They will also soon miss us as they kill each other and we say "no thanks" to role of world policeman.)

I'm no economist, but anyone who is in a credit related business knows we have a big problem. The US, Japan will remain politically stable. Much of the rest of the world will feel the pain. Muslims in Europe will probably have to leave for economic reasons. (The Dutch will finally have enough of their crap because they interfere with commerce and have become really bad for business. Interfere with commerce-and the Dutch will bring an ass-kicking with them. They have no tolerance for that.)

John C.

That's "Sir Arthur" to you.

Give a little freedom to these Commonwealthers and that’s what you get in return!

And while were at it, its "Patriotic Pro-Pats Ex-Pat Patagonian Plato” to you!

Now if you take the time to wander upthread, you will see the same insane blatherings from the VB supporters.

Here's a picture of Filip Dewinter being sworn into the Belgian parliament for the VB fanbois:

http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/dewinter-hitler-salute.jpg

Here's Filip Deman, VB speaking at Voorpost, note the posters on the back wall:

http://noblesseoblige.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/filip-de-man-at-voorpost.jpg

You see a poster for Solidarity with white South Africa, a poster for Bobby Sands of the IRA, a poster for the NPD, German neo-nazi youth group, a poster for TECOS and their anti-semitic publication Replica.

Nice friends you have there.

Here's what the Anti-Semitism world report TAU, says regarding VB, they are improving over past years here, but are still suspect:

Despite its demonstrations of solidarity with Israel and the Jewish community since the creation of the AEL, and its more moderate tone in relation to the Holocaust and the Jews in general, the Vlaams Beland (VB; formerly Vlaams Blok – see ASW 2004), headed by Filip Dewinter, still retains ties with small neo-fascist and antisemitic groups, such as Voorpost and Were Di. Besides being the leading political party in the city of Antwerp, the VB is also the main Flemish party in the Brussels regional parliament, holding 6 out of 11 seats held by Flemings. The Vlaams Belang enjoyed the electoral support of one Flemish voter in four – and in its Antwerp bastion, one in three – in regional and European elections in 2004.

Here's a nifty little Vid of a BNP member from Sky news:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRKk2K3fMk0

No, we aren't racist...







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