Jihad Watch Travelogue.
From our Agra office
What lengths will we here at JW not go to to get the truth for our readers? Braving jet lag and traveler's diarrhea (and blowing the travel budget through 2020), we can now confirm, absolutely, positively, that Islam has, in fact, from time to time, produced some really nifty buildings.
The great Taj was built by Shah Jahan, the fifth Mughal Emperor, in memory of his late wife, Mumtaz Mahal. It was completed in 1648 after 200,000 man-years of labor. Koranic verses adorn the four exactly symmetric entrances and appear to remain of constant size even as they recede from the observer. The minarets tilt slightly away from the main structure so as to fall outward in the event of earthquake. Pretty clever!
It seems that Shah Jahan had actually begun construction on a second Taj exactly opposite the first on the far bank of the Jamuna river. It was to be built entirely from black marble in order to compliment the first, made entirely of white. But his son managed to throw the old man into prison before he could truly break the bank. Still, that would have been something.
Interestingly, Shah Jahan was something of a religious syncretist, who incorporated Hindu, Jewish, Zoroastrian, and Christian themes into the otherwise distinctively Islamic edifice. According to our Muslim guide (I think I did detect a raised eyebrow when I produced my sign), he wanted to found a new religion based on the belief that all religions lead to God. Shocking as our readers will find it, his idea went exactly nowhere. Yet his magnificent accomplishment remains: another great achievement wrought -- as has so often been the case in the course of Islamic history -- by a heretic.
BTW, I will be on "Newshour" on the BBC Radio World Service tomorrow, Friday, February 22, to discuss my documentary, Islam: What the West Needs to Know, at 8pm GMT, 3pm EST. Apparently, there will be an interlocutor, yet to be determined, but an imam of some kind, I am told. Could prove interesting. We now have a full-length English version up at Google Video, here.
Have a look and post something supportive!
He's good looking! Not the usual toothless, homeless looking photos we have to suffer through :-)
Any Indian knows Taj Mahal has been rumored to be hindu palace converted to what it is now.
[..]
The most valuable evidence of all that Tejo Mahalaya is not an Islamic building is in the Badshahnama which contains the history of the first twenty years of Shah Jahan's reign. The writer Abdul Hamid has stated that Taj Mahal is a temple-palace taken from Jaipur's Maharaja Jaisigh and the building was known as Raja Mansingh's palace. This by itself is enough proof to state that Tejo Mahalaya is a Hindu structure captured, plundered and converted to a mausoleum by Shah Jahan and his henchmen. But I have taken the liberty to provide you with 109 other proofs and logical points which tell us that the structure known as the Taj Mahal is actually Tejo Mahalaya.
[more here]
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/tejo.html
Greg, I would check & see if you are not thinking of Akbar the Great as the Mughal emperor who was also the founder of a stillborn syncretic faith. Akbar was either the father or grandfather of Shah Jehan.
Outstanding!
How about a series of pictures like this, with backdrops of Hagia Sophia, the Al Aqsa Mosque, the Kabaa, etc.?
The more these "rivers of blood" Islamic types jabber on about how Israel and all of us are going to perish at their hands, the less I feel afraid.
It is only because the West is a more civilized and advanced culture than Islam, that we've not crushed these guys.
In a sign of the times, Boston's (USA) Ritz Carleton has been renamed to the Taj Hotel.
A Bollywood film, Jodhaa Akbar, recently came out, which distorts history and tries to depict the Mughal rulers in a positive light and create a myth of supposed "co-existence". This film was so controversial that it was released in the U.S. before it was released in India. Apparently, the Hindus aren't plagued by PC insanity to the same extent that we are.
An excellent and authentic (true to history) Bollywood movie about the India-Pakistan partition is Gadar. Highly recommended!
I watched the documentary just last weekend. Well done.
O/T but National Review Online, NRO, has a great piece this evening regarding the Islamization of Europe: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDc0MmQzM2FiNDk0Mjc0OWNhMjFjZWE5MTA0ZTUyZWM=
I never thought I'd see the day when jihadwatch would actually recognise what Islam has given to the world. Even then you still find it in you the ability to try and claim Hindu's had something to do with it and that the Shah wasn't actually a true Muslim. I mean what did you google? Since that website gives you 100 anti-Islamic pages before you get one that is rational, I'm sure you didn't have to search long.
Not a single historian will agree with your views. They know more than you and me.
Your belief is only based on what you want to believe, not what your intellect tells you is true.
You have it in you to go off topic and talk about how your way of life is more civilised and more advanced than the Islamic way of life. Yet you have no way of proving it. If how much money you have and how many cars you have in the garage are your yardsticks, then you are in bigger trouble then I previously thought. It's just your opinion.
The leaders of your country right now are just like you. 'Attack Islam at all costs, do not give them a chance to have their own way of life, let's impose ours.' 'It's our way or none at all.'
Thats imperialism, civilised people don't like that. Muslims had a chance to take over the whole of Europe at one point, why didn't they take it? Because they are not like you or your leaders who are driven by greed.
Your stand on the current issues are blurred by extreme bias. You have every reason to hate terrorists who along with their lives take countless innocents, but when it comes to debating Islam, I've said a million times you can't win. Where all you can do with the Quran is take the verses out of context, which I have proven many times, with the Bible and the Torah there is truth combined with outright absurdities and contradictions, shall I highlight a few that none of you will ever be able to answer?
And by the way Islam is a religion not a country or a race or a group of people. Doesn't matter how civilised you are, you won't be able to destroy Islam.
All I see is haze. Is that smog? A polarizing filter might help.
"And by the way Islam is a religion not a country or a race or a group of people. Doesn't matter how civilised you are, you won't be able to destroy Islam."
You ought to note that about 2000 years ago there was no Islam.
In fact, people have been thriving for hundreds of thousands of years before any of the modern religions came along.
Another ten thousand years from now, in all likelihood, there will be different kind of faith(s).
Yes, at best, Islam could be in history books...
I smell a troll. Maybe if we don't feed it, it will go away. By the way Greg, I really enjoyed your book. It's a really good book to give to people you want to enlighten because it's small and yet covers all the basics so maybe it won't stress their attention span.
Yes, they have some amazing architecture.
The Alhambra is another example. In some travel shows you can see really beautiful mosques also.
Back then the decorative arts and architecture where really thriving.
Even today there is a marriage of oil money and western know-how that has produced some amazing buildings in the Arab world.Makes you wonder what else could be achieved if things were different.
Check this out. It's very-over-the-top but well worth a look.
http://www.dubai-architecture.info/DUB-GAL1.htm
Greg
First things first. In that setting, you look like a Muslim, and for those out there who don't know that Jihad Watch is an anti-Jihad operation, people would have to be forgiven for mistaking you for... a Jihadi :-(
Anyway, hope the trip went well. Incidentally, just b'cos I can drink any water out there w/o getting sick doesn't mean you can. ;-|
Actually, that's an urban legend. In fact, after the monument was built, Shah Jahan had the hands of the artisans who built it cut off so that they wouldn't be able to replicate the feat.Greek Fire above is right - it was his grandfather Akbar who started a new 'religion' called Deen-e-Ilahi, or the faith of light, where he tried exactly that. He had a total of 40 followers to this faith. Shah Jahan, by contrast, was quite bigoted, and resumed the demolition of Hindu temples, which had been somewhat on the backburner under both Akbar and Jahangir. Of course, none of them matched Aurangzeb, who was far more fanatical than any of them.
John Moe, don't go by Jai Maharaj: the accounts of the Taj being a Hindu temple is a myth, and from a Hindu POV, a pretty self destructive one, given that instead of focussing on 10,000 real Hindu temples that were destroyed by Mohammedan conquerors, they are focussing on a monument where not only is the evidence weak, but where very few Hindus would support converting, let alone demolishing. This isn't like the Babri Masjid, where nobody will miss it.
Moorthy, dms is right - ignore the troll.
Greg
First things first. In that setting, you look like a Muslim, and for those out there who don't know that Jihad Watch is an anti-Jihad operation, people would have to be forgiven for mistaking you for... a Jihadi :-(
Anyway, hope the trip went well. Incidentally, just b'cos I can drink any water out there w/o getting sick doesn't mean you can. ;-|
Actually, that's an urban legend. In fact, after the monument was built, Shah Jahan had the hands of the artisans who built it cut off so that they wouldn't be able to replicate the feat.Greek Fire above is right - it was his grandfather Akbar who started a new 'religion' called Deen-e-Ilahi, or the faith of light, where he tried exactly that. He had a total of 40 followers to this faith. Shah Jahan, by contrast, was quite bigoted, and resumed the demolition of Hindu temples, which had been somewhat on the backburner under both Akbar and Jahangir. Of course, none of them matched Aurangzeb, who was far more fanatical than any of them.
John Moe, don't go by Jai Maharaj: the accounts of the Taj being a Hindu temple is a myth, and from a Hindu POV, a pretty self destructive one, given that instead of focussing on 10,000 real Hindu temples that were destroyed by Mohammedan conquerors, they are focussing on a monument where not only is the evidence weak, but where very few Hindus would support converting, let alone demolishing. This isn't like the Babri Masjid, where nobody will miss it.
Moorthy, dms is right - ignore the troll.
Greg
First things first. In that setting, you look like a Muslim, and for those out there who don't know that Jihad Watch is an anti-Jihad operation, people would have to be forgiven for mistaking you for... a Jihadi :-(
Anyway, hope the trip went well. Incidentally, just b'cos I can drink any water out there w/o getting sick doesn't mean you can. ;-|
Actually, that's an urban legend. In fact, after the monument was built, Shah Jahan had the hands of the artisans who built it cut off so that they wouldn't be able to replicate the feat.Greek Fire above is right - it was his grandfather Akbar who started a new 'religion' called Deen-e-Ilahi, or the faith of light, where he tried exactly that. He had a total of 40 followers to this faith. Shah Jahan, by contrast, was quite bigoted, and resumed the demolition of Hindu temples, which had been somewhat on the backburner under both Akbar and Jahangir. Of course, none of them matched Aurangzeb, who was far more fanatical than any of them.
John Moe, don't go by Jai Maharaj: the accounts of the Taj being a Hindu temple is a myth, and from a Hindu POV, a pretty self destructive one, given that instead of focussing on 10,000 real Hindu temples that were destroyed by Mohammedan conquerors, they are focussing on a monument where not only is the evidence weak, but where very few Hindus would support converting, let alone demolishing. This isn't like the Babri Masjid, where nobody will miss it.
Moorthy, dms is right - ignore the troll.
sorry for the duplicate post
Thesaracen,
Intellect. A great word, and a fine concept lost on all Muslims. Been sleeping in class again?
Shah Jahaan went a bit nuts during his later years (i.e. senile), but his imprisonment was done by his fundamentalist son, Aurangzeb, whose name is essentially synonymous with Hitler in India.
As in, people will say, "He's being an Aurangzeb, etc."
It was Akbar "the Great" who attempted to fuse those religions and was quite secular in his later years (but which cannot be said of his younger years, around which the controversy of the film "Jodha-Akbar" is centered). Akbar, after fighting the Rajputs (the martial people's originating in Rajasthan), killed 30,000 unarmed people because they refused to convert to Islam. Later on, he regretted it and tried to create his own faith "Din-e-Ilahi", but very few converted and it disappeared after his death.
The mass response you see to the movie is due primarily to the Rajputs, but also to a growing resentment in the Hindu community due to gross amounts of governmental pandering to minority communities to the degree of forming Muslim-only and Christian-only GOVERNMENTALLY funded schools. Talk about shit, eh?
The Rajputs, however, are more conscious of their history and have always been more of a martial people (along with West Indian Hindus [Marathis, Gujaratis] and Punjabis).
They were the first to fight the Muslims and essentially lead an unending campaign lasting 1000 years against the Muslims who they always considered as foreign, despite many of them born on Indian soil.
Aurangzeb, the emperor who usurped Shah Jahaan, killed his moderate brother Dara Shikoh because he believed in the liberal Sufi doctrine and took an interest in Hinduism, specifically Advaita Vedanta. In this, he declared they were the same. He also held debates with the Sikh gurus.
Of course, bastards before the Mughals, specifically the Turks and the Afghans did much more damage (and later on, the Persians, such as Nader Shah, who stole the Kohinoor diamond the Peacock Throne from India in 1761).
Malik Kafur, a convert to Islam became rabidly anti-Hindu; Alaudin Khilji, Timurlane (killed 100,000 Hindus in one day), and Babur, the founder of the Mughal dynasty.
His destruction of the temple of Ayodhya and subsequent mosque built on top was destroyed in 1993 by Hindu "fundamentalists".
Honestly, if someone wants to me to write an article for JW on historical Islamic extremism, I'd be more than happy to.
Greg
Fix the above link, and drop the apostrophe at the end.
I entered a comment, and marked as spam the 3 anonymous attacks on you.
Another quick comment... forgive me. For what cool I usually emanate, discussing Medieval Indian history has the innate ability to get me riled.
US_infidel-
Believe me, there are FAR more dhimmis among Hindus than there are among other faiths. Or at least that is my belief and certainly, my experience.
Dharmic faiths are inherently more pluralistic than Abrahamic ones and when you toss in PC you end up gobblygook (or tend to be more pluralistic than classical Christianity. I can't comment on the Christian churches that I've heard even go so far as to deny the divinity of Christ).
Thanks for your historical information Blue. You cover a lot of ground very succinctly. I hope you are taken up on your offer to further elaborate in future postings.
John Moe, the magnificient structure known as Taj Mahal was 'built' by the Mugal king Shahjahan is based on four primary documents----1. Shahjahanama,written by Mulla Abdul Hamid Lahori in Persian, 2.Tavernier--a french, visited India in the rein of Shahjahan and has written about Taj in his memoirs, 3.Peter Mundy an employee of East India Co. who visited Taj when it was being "built" by Shahjahan, Peter Mundy has written about this in travelouges, 4.Letters written to Raja Jai Singh of Jaipur by Shahjahan for the procurement of marble from Rajasthan. A critical analysis of these four primary documents along with other cicumstantial evidences tell us that Taj Mahal was a preexisting structure possibly a Hindu temple and converted into burial place by the Mugal emperor Shahjahan.
Here is a link to a collaboration of
Shiite / Sunni styles.
Drats. Second try:
Here is a link to a collaboration of
Shiite / Sunni styles.
I am a Hindu from India and a fan of Robert Spencer.
I can predict the reaction of "secularists" of India (who are Indian versions of American "liberals" and shameless apologists of Islam) when they see this.
They will say - you have defined Islam such that anyone having slightest sympathy for non - muslims falls outside the ambit of Islam. Shah Jehan was, in many ways, a fairly "tough" and practising muslim. He had restored Jizyah in India which had been abolished by his father Akbar.
If achievements by such Muslim are not Islamic achievements then you are the one who has misunderstood Islam. According to them Islam, while completely exclusive in purest form was, in practice and perhaps with slight deviations, a practical philosphy of life which improved lives for hundreds of millions of people worldwide and had great achievements in all walks of life.
While I mostly do not agree with secularists, I have to admit that Taj Mahal was "Islamic" achievement and a great achievement too.
I would like to know how Mr. Robert Spencer would respond to the logic of secularists.
Oh, slight error in my comment above. Akbar was Shah Jehan's grandfather, not father.
Monument builders.
Yeah. They always make one ask, "Hmmm..., maybe these guys were smarter than I thought, I mean look at that thing ..."
Monument builders.
But then you think, well, besides the big cool looking monument what did they do or leave behind?
And mostly the answer is, not a damn thing.
What was that quote?
"I am Oxymandias, look upon my works ye mighty and shudder" -- found on the relic of a building buried in the sand. OR something like that.
The fact is that not even such a toxic and retrograde philosophy as mohammedanism and its damned sharia can altogether stamp out human virtue and ability.
So what!
===========
Human goodness will spring up from time to time pretty much anywhere. Regardless of how sick and stupid the prevailing cultural philosphy is.
And the ripoff bastards that rule the time and place will fall over themselves trying to take credit for the works of their betters.
Normal human corruption. Nothing special.
===========
It's fairly safe to assume that a few works of real creativity and value squeaked through the desiccating idiocy of mohammedanism and even survived the demise of their worthless culture.
That's pretty normal.
Was the Taj one of them? Maybe.
Who cares?
================
I would be remarkable if mohammedan culture had allowed the production of absolutely nothing of value.
But that seems unlikely.
However to this moment the creative output of the whole mohammedan population of the world is less than that of Spain. Inventions, really good books, movies, orchestras, science, math, medicine, engineering, industrial production, business ... anything.
These people amount to nearly 1/5 of the human population. And it's freakin' amazing how little they produce.
Anybody who can look at that fact (and there's a stretch right there) and not ask whether the mohammedans might not have some stupid ideas is themselves some kind of idiot.
The really blinding thing about all of this is that if all the mohammedans in the world vanished or moved to mars or something, the rest of us would be barely inconvenienced. And that, for only a few months, till we could move workers on to the oil rigs.
For the most part it would be an improvement.
Life would be cheaper, safer and more pleasant.
And that's just the truth about reality.
This is one of the funniest photos I've seen in a while. That guy is classic.
It would be better if his beard was thicker.
the saracen said:
"Muslims had a chance to take over the whole of Europe at one point, why didn't they take it? Because they are not like you or your leaders who are driven by greed."
Baloney. Their not taking over Europe was not for lack of trying. It was because Charles Martel beat them back at Tours in 722, Ferdinand and Isabella expelled them from Spain in 1492, and the good citizens of Vienna held their ground at the Siege of Vienna in 1529 and again at the Battle of Vienna in 1683. Unfortunately, Christian Europe lost the battles in the Middle East, including some significant ones in the Balkans, and most importantly Constantinople in 1453. But the center held and Europe survived.
Your usage of "greed" is an inappropriate term for the circumstances you applied it to. When you're fighting for your survival other factors assume greater importance than greed. On the other hand, perhaps greed would be an appropriate term to apply to the Muslim armies during the nearly 1000 year reign of terror they inflicted on the region of mankind extending from the Pillars of Hercules to the Ganges.
'Booty, the spoils of war', the permanent warfare against unbelievers and Jews over 1400 years, the rape and enslavement of whole populations, is that not greed?
Islamo-logic at work:
the troll above believes that jihad warfare rewards the genocidal armies justly, because Muhammad said 'Allah made booty lawful'.
How crude, how primitive and barbaric is that?
Now if that is not greed, what is?
"You have every reason to hate terrorists who along with their lives take countless innocents, but when it comes to debating Islam, I've said a million times you can't win."
The Taj Mahal is a magnificent building. It's an architectural jewel. I'd be willing to bet no one is going to fly a jet through it, any time in the near future. "Infidels" have an eye for and an appreciation of ancient wonders.
The WTC towers were nice, too. They were jewels of modern architecture.
No one (well, almost no one) would have the slightest interest in "debating Islam" if not for the terrorists who claim it and the Qur'an as their raison d'etre.
There is more to terrorism than the standard suicide/mass murder, incidentally. Torture, destruction of valued pieces of art and sacred shrines, and charming videos of stonings, beheadings, and amputations leave me a bit weak-kneed. The pride and the pleasure the torturers, beaheaders, destroyers, and maimers find in their "work" sickens and terrifies me.
Rather than execrating the lot of us, why don't you, Thesaracen, have a wee word with some of the commenters on the "death to America" websites. Have you thought to speak to them at all about your views on terrorism?
Interestingly, Shah Jahan was something of a religious syncretist...he wanted to found a new religion based on the belief that all religions lead to God.
Sounds a bit like Manicheism, founded by a third-century Persian prince named Mani, who combined elements of Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism (but not Islam, which did not yet exist). Manicheism spread into the Christian world (including North Africa before muslims conquered it), where it was considered a "heresy", even though it was not an offshoot of Christianity. St. Augustine was a Manichean before becoming Christian.
You have it in you to go off topic and talk about how your way of life is more civilised and more advanced than the Islamic way of life. Yet you have no way of proving it.
In the West, religious minorities are generally tolerated without special restrictions (and are protected against discrimination by religion, at least in the U.S.), whereas under the Islamic way of life, a.k.a., sharia, they are allowed to survive only as second class "dhimmis". Yes, I will concede that in the past, we Westerners were not so tolerant, but we've mostly outgrown our previous intolerance. The terrorists themselves are evidence that many in the muslim world have not done likewise.
In the West, the worst that most homosexuals can expect is that some people will (gasp!) disagree with their demand to have gay marriage recognized. In parts of the muslim world, gays are executed by stoning, just for being gay.
I'd say that those kind of things show that our way of life is more advanced than those of muslims, at least the more fundamentalist muslims.
"Look on my works, ye mighty, and shudder."
-- from a posting above
A poster above invokes "Ozymandias," andsuggests that a relevant line in that poem may possibly end with a "shudder." But both meaning and meter require something stronger. A mere "shudder" by the "mighty" will not convey the feeling they should have as they witness the ruins of a powerful predecessor's monument to himself. And a final iamb is needed here because the previous foot is a pyrrhic, and the metric grid must be reasserted, so as to fulfill the expectation that has been set up in the mind's ear of the reader.
"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair."
The video linked in the post isn't working. A new thread dedicated to point out the free access to this video would be useful.
Well worth your time to view and share.
More than the claim he's a heretic, it would be worthwhile to examine the history of the art and archetectual styles.
My understanding is that most of "Islamic" artwork is derivative of that of the cultures Muslim fighters subdued and eventually (in most cases) extinguished. This is derived from tracing the styles back in history, and charting the great works on a timeline relative to the initial Islamic invasions.
The classic domes, for example, were originally from Orthodox Christian architecture.
This is perfectly understandable in light of the position Islam takes with respect to innovation. You get a generation or two that still intuitively assumes the ways of the old culture (which typically involves a respect for artistic innovation, and some memory of that culture's artistic patterns). And in this period traditional art flourishes.
Then Islam settles in and you get, at best, copies of things that were actually created by the previous culture, but that are claimed to be Islamic. Yes human beings are still creative beings and you'll find some adjusting these old patterns in new ways (which is then THEIR creation, and not one of Islam), but signifigant innovation dies down.
"Not a single historian will agree with your views. They know more than you and me."
Historians know what they know because they do research, and because that research is checked against other people doing research. If you have access to a library and time to spare, and three IQ digits to rub together, you can do the same thing.
There isn't some Majick Historian Hat that floats down onto their heads from heaven and makes them unquestionable.
"Your belief is only based on what you want to believe, not what your intellect tells you is true."
I'd get into philosophy of science and philosophy of belief and epistemology with you if you were serious, but you're not. Anyone on here, or lurking, that is honestly interested in this, pipe up and we can talk. You're the only reason I ever answer trolls anyway, the potential that there are honest and curious observers.
"Thats imperialism, civilised people don't like that. Muslims had a chance to take over the whole of Europe at one point, why didn't they take it? Because they are not like you or your leaders who are driven by greed."
You know nothing about Islamic history, do you?
Even at the height of Islamic power, the military supply lines were not strong enough to extend up past al-Andalus and up cross the mountains and into Europe from there, not in any sustainable fashion. This is especially true because the raiding in the area was relatively poor (compare to Iraq, Iran, or Egypt), so supply lines were critical. This is what even those absolute unquestionable authorities, the mainstream Historians, will tell you. It was about overextended supply lines.
"Your stand on the current issues are blurred by extreme bias. You have every reason to hate terrorists who along with their lives take countless innocents, but when it comes to debating Islam, I've said a million times you can't win."
Wow, so we've got another source of truth other than the official, certified Historians! Things that are said a million times!
Now our epistemology is really cooking with... uh... gas?
"Where all you can do with the Quran is take the verses out of context, which I have proven many times,"
If we are taking it out of context, so are essentially all your living Muslims scholars. They think men should be able to beat their wives, they think people who change their religion away from Islam should be murdered, they think people who are Jews and Christians should be, where Islam rules, treated as second class citizens. They think Islam should eventually rule worldwide, that that is God's will. And have you looked up what most of them think about innovation, human creativity?
We aren't taking anything out of context, we're just repeating what they are saying YOUR religion says. Take it up with them if you have a problem with it.
"with the Bible and the Torah there is truth combined with outright absurdities and contradictions, shall I highlight a few that none of you will ever be able to answer?"
The Bible and Torah are held to be inspired by God, not literate and coeternal with God. They are to be interpreted, as must in fact be done with *all* language, whether purported to be eternal or not. This is why Jews and Christians can, by and large, live like sane thinking people with their Holy texts, and are not bound to dark age interpretations.
"And by the way Islam is a religion not a country or a race or a group of people. Doesn't matter how civilised you are, you won't be able to destroy Islam."
Because it is a religion, and an irrational one at that, Islam will die when Muslims are allowed to think about it and leave it without getting their heads cut off. Either this will happen, or the Islamic world -- geographic areas where Muslims are the majority and thus dominate the culture and political life -- will remain a hellhole.
Either way, it was your business, and not mine, until evil men started using YOUR religion to kill thousands of innocent people on 9/11. They started it. Now we have to protect ourselves. That means containing political manifestations of Islam to the places it has already turned into hellholes.
If you think the men who started this are wrong, why not take up their traditional understanding of YOUR religion with THEM, and not us?
For the record, I don't hate Muslims, and I don't want *them* destroyed in the least. I like many individual Muslims very much, and I wish the best for them and their families overseas. I do think Islam, as traditionally interpreted, is causing their suffering, and is a danger that threatens to spread their political oppression and pressing poverty around the world. I would like the traditional interpretations "destroyed", or at least out of power, but I'm not in a place to do that. The best we can do is protect ourselves from the spread of this dangerous political ideology.
Go see Persepolis.
Shah Jahan, was a debauch actually, devoting himself seriously to women and alcohol. Being a sensuous aesthete, couldn't have been much of an islamic zealot.
Aurangzeb, his son, on the other hand, was an unalloyed muslim, who deviously killed all his brothers and then imprisoned Shah Jahan in Agra Fort (infamously sending him a "surprise, surprise" gift in a silver casket - it was the head of Dara, the eldest brother and Shah Jahan's favourite).
However, Aurangzeb was not destined to enjoy his great fortune. This Super Sunni had decided to devote the rest of his life to zealotry by fully islamising India, something none of the previous Mughals had sanely ever attempted. Having quickly antagonized the Hindus, Aurangzeb spent the rest of his long life battling the Marathas and Rajputs.
His long and expensive campaigns in the Deccan were failures despite his trying every devious trick and cruelty possible (he had the Maratha chief Sivaji's son Sahaji slowly dismembered alive,while in his custody as hostage). Aurangzeb ended up destroying the then great Mughal Empire, which soon became bankrupt and was swept away by history. Aurangzeb is buried in a plain, open to sky stone grave, with crows for company, in a small fort in Deccan.
Or maybe a street vendor hawking a new brand of wristwatches? :-)
Since to you I'm known as a troll, I'm proud to be one.
Your thinking is too biased for you to accept anything that is contrary to your beliefs about Islam. I can't change that, but I will continue giving you the truth until you get to the point where your mind becomes open and you can think rationally again because right now, your not capable of it.
Why is it that the spread of Islam during the conquests was such a bad thing in your mindsets, but colonisation, which Christanity has a rich history of is not?
Had the Muslims slaughtered the Christian citizens of Spain, there would be no Christian Spain today. Same thing is true of India and the other countries that came under Islamic rule. As for the countries Christianity took over. There is not a trace of their cultures. Their people have no say whatsoever on how the country runs. From Africa, to Oceania to the US and South America, Christanity rules, why? Your accused of it time and time again, but you constantly say' oh we moved on, we're not that bad anymore.' It is still part of your history and to the people who were invaded; they were slaughtered, no question about it. Forced conversions are more common in the history of Christianity than it is of Islam. You deny that also. Treatment of the Jews in the history of Christianity is not an issue to be proud of. Oh but you've moved on. This is History which you can't deny. Ask me to show you proof and I will oblige, not from an Islamic website which you will dismiss but from the testimony of Historians past and present.
The attack on Islam continues. There is now something called the media, whose power you haven't fully understood. Everyday it attacks Islam and paints pictures which aren't true. There are suicide bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan, not because of Islam, but merely the fact that there are wars in these countries. But the media say Islamic extremists carry it out, not Iraqi's or Afghanis. The Serbs wiped out Muslims in Bosnia, but they were Serbs not Christian extremists. The Tamil Tigers carry out suicide bombings but they are known as rebels, not Hindu extremists. You may not agree but thats the truth of the matter. Muslim graveyards are desecrated in Austria, no mention.
Serbs riot and attack your embassies in retaliation for your support of Kosovo, no mention
A madrassa is teaching children from a book filled with hate, front page headline- Muslims teaching kids with hate books.
9/11 was the biggest lie in the history of mankind. How these people who run your country have managed to get away with it is something that baffles me. It was an atrocity, I won't support the killing of innocent people, but as I've said before and it's not just me who is saying this but many of your own people; Bin Laden could not have carried out such an attack. How can a man hiding in a mountain in Afghanistan organise an attack of this magnitude? If he was the man who did it, he would have said so in the interview with the Pakistani newspaper, not in a video that experts are questioning.
Why is he still on the run 7 years after your president went after him? Saddam was somehow caught hiding in a hole in the ground, but Bin Laden is in an open terrain, with nowhere to run.
The hijackers are turning up alive. Don't take my word for it, here's the BBC to give you proof.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
One hijacker, I can accept, but four of them?
One day someone in that administration will reveal the truth, but I don't bet on it and even if he did, he would be quickly dismissed as a madman and a conspiracy theorist.
9/11 was just an unbelievable event carried out by your government to justify an attack on the middle east region, because without it, 1.5 billion people would have been mightily pissed off.
9/11 is the one thing keeping you from looking at Islam with an open mind. But if you can explain these hijackers turning up alive and the bodies of the other hijackers never being found, or the black boxes, or the phone calls from 30,000 feet,or the collapse of the towers and a nearby building and the Israeli students who were cheering on top of a van, I will believe what your president says.
Don't drift off to another topic as usual answer these questions and the points I have brought up in this post. I don't care how much money you have and how civilised your society is, thats your opinion, you've never been to a Muslim land to know and compare these things.
I look forward to 10 more posts of hate. But answer the questions at least.
thes states: "One day someone in that administration will reveal the truth, but I don't bet on it and even if he did, he would be quickly dismissed as a madman and a conspiracy theorist."
OMG!!! Don't you dare pin 9/11 on Bush. You attempted to pursuade people of these same lies last week by claiming that Osama was NOT behind 9/11, and that the Bush Admin was the one responsible.
Pu-lease.
Are you in that much denial to the facts surrounding this event? Are you so far gone in your own mind that you would defend Islam to the point of pinning blame for this heinous crime on those who are not responsible. I guess so!
Yeah, in your own words, you are in fact a madman and a conspiracy theorist. There, I said it, because you are.
The article on Taj Mahal in Wikipedia says:
Those dirty ‘infidels’ British restored the Taj from bad disrepair into its former glory? How dare they?Very nice restoration work, Brits, though a thankless job for those ‘best of people’ who glorify their great works by letting them fall into bad disrepair, but then claim the end product their own.
In a related article on the Origins, it said this:
Those damned European 'infidels' again...Hugh,
Thanks for the quote correction. I was able to find the original (and some notes) online here:
Percy Bysshe Shelley: Ozymandias
It was an old memory. Although the image it evoked never went away, I couldn't quite call it all back.
Anyway, monument builders! There you go.
Building cool monuments is not a proof of cultural adequacy, much less excellence.
A great deal of "Roman" sculpture was produced by Greek slaves, using techniques that had been worked out whole generations before by geniuses long dead.
And that's just ROME.
I'm very skeptical about whether the mohammedan population, even at the height of their imperial period, produced much original work of value. I don't have the grasp of the historical data of Hugh or Fjordman. But I just haven't seen evidence of a creative culture there.
And as I said, there is always the question to be answered, was the originator of some great work supported and nurtured by the surrounding culture, or acting despite, or even in defiance of an opposing and discouraging cultural environment.
Which latter I believe has probably always been the case for significant geniuses in mohammedan lands.
Even mohammedanism can't stamp out talent and creative passion altogether.
That's not testimony to the goodness of mohammedanism but rather to the greatness of the human spirit.
thesaracen
Some 150m people in India were slaughtered by the Mohammedans, so quit your holocaust-denial theory that had Muslims slaughtered the Hindu citizens of India, there would be no Hindu India today. In all these countries, once conquered, people were given the choice of conversion, subjugation as 2nd class citizens, or death. So the entire North Africa to Central Asia converted, while in India, Spain and later the Balkans, Hindus and Catholics managed to launch a comeback at a point and reverse that tide in history.
This is for the sake of any reader who takes your points above seriously, although your truther inclinations make it really unlikely.
champ- 'Oh my god don't blame a proven liar.' I blame Bush for it, absolutely. No one asked you to believe what I said. I said show me proof that I can't deny, I've shown you something which opens cracks in the government's story. Deny them with proof, not a passionate support of Bush, that's no good.
Now Muslims are against creativity and imagination. LOOL. What nonsense, When it comes to Islam no, stick to the original teachings and don't innovate, thats where Islam is truthful but with anything else in life God does not forbid you to create and be imaginative.
Muslims have given this world many things, which your societies today have elaborated and developed ,don't deny that. They were pioneers of Science and certain aspects of Maths, do you deny that. If they can develop science and maths they can't can't develop their own architecture?
Do you know Public hospitals and Libraries were invented by Muslims? The first university to issue degrees- Muslims. Should I go on?
"The first university to issue degrees-Muslims. Should I go on?"
The above poster would do well to research the Assyrian school of Nisibis which dates back to the 4th century. Specialized in three departments: theology,philosophy,medicine. It helped lay the foundation for the period of Assyrian intellectual development prior to it's Islamic colonization. The descendants of this tradition of inquiry were the very scribes who(along with Jewish translators)translated,into a workable Arabic, roughly 10% of the original Greek works on subjects of mathematics,medicine,architecture. The vast amount of such works having been brought west to Italy by Byzantine monks and scholars in the century or so prior to the fall of Constantinople to the Turks.
And in addition to the great library of Alexandria in Egypt,both the Greeks and Romans possessed some semblance of public facilities,including libraries,for the citizenry.(slaves excluded generally) Muslims,from India to Spain, were conquerors,political administrators and primarily sought to enhance existing concepts with the aid of their newfound subjects,which ironically,once exhausted in force of numbers,coincided with the end of the golden age of Islam.
And by the way Islam is a religion not a country or a race or a group of people. Doesn't matter how civilised you are, you won't be able to destroy Islam. - thesaracen
No need to. Islam's rub against the superior civilization of the West, what gave us equality, freedom, human rights, and end of slavery, is all the salvo it needs for the 'country' of Islam, the Ummah, to experience dissolution of its regressive, enslaving, total mind control tyrannies. This 'group of people' is headed for extinction.
Mohammed's way of life on Earth is checked and numbered, it will fall of its own vileness. Islam is not a religion like other world religions, but a servile cultish political system of human repressions, against women, against homosexuals, against joy and laughter, against music, against art, against truth, against human decency... and against dogs. It will go the way of another 'race' that disappeared some 30,000 years ago.
Didn't you also send the first man on the moon? ;-)
Does anyone have a link to the BBC program with Gregory on it?
Palamas
Outstanding! Another 9-11 conspiracy theorist pops out of the ground for some fun. A bbc link?,sure that's a real trustworthy source. While your at it,google "Popular Mechanics 911" for a detailed step by step walk through by experts in the field of construction and demolition as opposed to journalism. Then again it's much easier to blame it on elements of government who need an excuse to invade the middle east. Newsflash: If an excuse for war were the motive,planted intel or WMDs would fit the bill for initial military action, which could subsequently be expanded,not flying airliners into downtown Manhattan and the financial districts which are integral to that very military industrial complex. Why airliners to begin with? Why not detonate the buildings while full at say 4:00pm unannounced?
Care to inform the parents of those Stewardesses who had their throats slit during the hijacks what really happened to their daughters? Or the relatives of the Pentagon passengers?
It's not only 911,which has people up in arms,but the 1360 year odyssey of terror against Arab pagans,Berbers,Zoaroastrians,Chaldeans,Coptics,Jews,Hindus,
and anyone else who refuses to "submit."
The free people of the world must reach out with whatever aid is necessary in assisting apostates and reformers who seek sanctuary from the manacles of this self devouring ideology.
From Africa, to Oceania to the US and South America, Christanity rules, why? Your accused of it time and time again, but you constantly say' oh we moved on, we're not that bad anymore.' It is still part of your history and to the people who were invaded; they were slaughtered, no question about it. Forced conversions are more common in the history of Christianity than it is of Islam.
You poor little misguided Saracen fool. We are not talking about the 16th century, but TODAY, the 21st century. Where are Christians slaughtering natives, or anyone of any religion TODAY? Unlike your ‘coreligionists’ who are eagerly attacking people of all religions (including their own) TODAY: http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/3254
What monstrous fear do they harbor to behead little Christian girls going to school, or killing and burning Buddhist schoolteachers, or an old man walking his dog, that it creates such wrathful vengeance in your ‘coreligonists’? Why do you TODAY destroy other people’s churches and temples, or blow up ancient works of art, those large stone statues of Buddha that had silently witnessed the wrath and destruction of their people in Afghanistan, in any place where Mohammed’s mad-dog-god Allah conquered? You are doing this TODAY, same as you had been doing for 14 centuries, wherever Islam puts its ugly foot forwards. You are a dunce, sir, and should be sat in the corner with a large dunce cap on, for everyone to see and understand what vile stupidity you spout off.
9/11 was the biggest lie in the history of mankind. How these people who run your country have managed to get away with it is something that baffles me. It was an atrocity, I won't support the killing of innocent people, but as I've said before and it's not just me who is saying this but many of your own people; Bin Laden could not have carried out such an attack. How can a man hiding in a mountain in Afghanistan organise an attack of this magnitude?
And you are a LIAR, or at best you are calling Bin Laden a liar, since he accepted responsibility for his ‘brilliant’ plan to strike fear and destruction into America, and the world. You poor little misguided foolish troll. Go sit in the corner, since you are not even amusing for comic relief, but sickening to sane and decent minds.
Does anyone have a link to the BBC program with Gregory on it?
Palamas
Go to the BBC world service website and click on "Listen Live". I'm listening now.
Typical BBC giving the Muslim the final word, but at least the film got a good name-check at the end!
thes - your response to me is all over the place, so stick to one subject, because the inventions of Muslims have NOTHING to do with 9/11; and my defense of Bush is not merely passion driven, but facts driven. Any passion you picked up on from what I wrote was in response to your PUTRID LIES, pal, and was not simply employed by emotion. Nice attempt at dismissing me, but I'm not going to fall for it.
You forgot to mention another "invention" of Muslims: Islam. An invention that is connected to 9/11.
Battle_of_Tours - excellent come back!!
Listen to a recording of the programme here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/newshour.shtml
To be fair, we shouldn't be ungrateful to the BBC. As with Dr Johnson's dog walking on its hind legs, one is surprised to find the BBC mentioning Greg's film at all.
And Greg, you were great, you landed two or three really solid punches in a rather short ten minute piece.
Nice one!
Well the Taj Mahal is certainly beautiful….
That’s how I remember it from my visit.
In fact, India is possibly the most beautiful country in the world, along with France.
Please can we now have pictures of Chartres Catherdral, the Sainte Chapelle etc?
champ this is not a comeback. What kind of comeback is that when he gives me a link to an anti-Islamic website and then calls me a foolish troll. If I cussed you battle of tours you would not comeback at me ever again. But thats childish. I'm not here to win any debates. I want to create a better understanding of Islam. I mean since your message is going nowhere and your losing on all fronts, you might as well hear the truth. I am a liar ok, but no-one has been able to prove it.
Bush is a liar, thats undeniable, but you accept what he says. How ignorant are you people?
The more subjects you touch upon, the more avenues you close off till there is no justification for you to hate Islam and your hatred becomes apparent for all to see. There is nothing you have against Islam, full stop. There is nothing that you have against the terrorists which make you better than them. Your guilty of exactly the same and worse.
The only difference is one kills on average 10 people. Whereas your actions have ended the lives of more than 1 million people in Iraq just by sanctions, never mind the war. These sanctions are death sentences to these innocent people. So your no different at all. At the end of the day innocent people are dying, except a suicide bomber could never match the rate of casualties of the sanctions. Neither is good, so stop your hypocrisy.
thes - on another thread you mentioned that you were not married, so for Gods sake I hope that you remain unmarried, or you will drive your wife INSANE! You are incapable of having a two-way conversation, only one where you get to be right about everything, and the other person stands wrong - according to thes. Yep, that's a recipe for driving someone insane alright. Please, I beg you, remain single.
All right look I hear your message champ. I don't want to discuss politics. But I need to understand where you people stand on Islam. If you give me a message full of how much you hate 'trolls' then I am human and it's obviously something that does not register well with me. I don't want to gain a measure over anyone I would love for someone to come forward who can say look mate this is what I believe about Islam, is it true?
All I see is everyone assuming they already know, but I am a Muslim, I would know. And when it's not true, it's very irritating.
I have not denied certain things which you have bought up, others have no basis at all.
I am capable of having a two way conversation if any of you was to meet me in person. I would listen to you and let you finish and then calmly give you my answer. If it's not good enough. That's OK. I'll go away and come back another day after gaining more knowledge.
I'm not arrogant and stubborn or cocky even though it appears that way.
As for my wife champ, I've grown up in a family full of woman. I know how to converse with woman. So me and my wife will have no problems on that front god willing.
So look all I ask as for you to tell me clearly where you stand on Islam. If you hate it then tell me why you hate it. And I'll try and answer you. If you hate the terrorists then I'm not stopping you from hating them. Muslims are fantastic people who are prejudiced everyday in the media. It's not our teachings, which are to blame for terrorism and I need you to understand this.
thes - discussing 9/11 is hardly a conversation just about politics, discussing 9/11 is pivotal to why many of us have taken an interest in sites like Jihad Watch in the first place. Personally, I cannot separate myself from the event of 9/11 and Islam because the two are grafted together.
I can certainly understand why being called a troll is offensive, which is why I don't use that term myself; but I do not have a problem calling someone a liar, if in fact I think that they are lying; and unfortunately, I do consider you to be a liar, thes.
thes states: "I would love for someone to come forward who can say look mate this is what I believe about Islam, is it true?"
The problem with this approach, thes, for me anyway, is that I do not trust you. In my experience in talking with you, especially when the topic of 9/11 comes up, among other topics as well, but especially on your position of 9/11, has only left me stunned to where I do not trust anything that would come out of your mouth; so asking what you believe about Islam will be taken with a large measure of distrust & disbelief on my part. Make sense?
Basically, I will only listen to those I trust and who do not hold a bias towards Islam, or to whom I consider to be a compulsive liar, whether or not they are Muslim.
OK - so now that you know how I see you, are you still interested in reading why I hate Islams ideologies?
Oops... I stated that wrong:
I will "NOT" listen to those I consider to be compulsive liars.
"the saracen" never responds to substantive challenges. He's worthless and a waste of time.
hope_and_justice said:
The Bible and Torah are held to be inspired by God, not literate and coeternal with God. They are to be interpreted, as must in fact be done with *all* language, whether purported to be eternal or not. This is why Jews and Christians can, by and large, live like sane thinking people with their Holy texts, and are not bound to dark age interpretations.
Ignoring the rest of his/her excellent response (and ignoring the troll as well) ... as applied to Torah, it depends on whom you ask. For some reason, this notion of Torah as inspired by God but not literally the word of God is taken for granted a lot in discussions about the differences between revealed scripture in Judaism and Islam, but it's just not the case. At least not for Orthodox Jews (the more "progressive" branches differ). To quote just one authoritative explanation:
"It is a foundation of our [Jewish] faith that every word of the Torah was dictated to Moses by God. ...
The entire Torah was therefore written by Moses as dictated by God. This included all the happenings recorded in it from the time of creation. ...
Although the Book of Deuteronomy is written as the testimony of Moses, every word in it was written at the express commandment of God. God dictated the book as if Moses himself were addressing the people. ...
God would dictate each passage of the Torah to Moses, and Moses would repeat it aloud. He would then write it down."
http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Writing_the_Torah.asp
Dictated, not inspired. But there is an equally fundamental tradition in Judaism that in addition to the words of the Torah, God also dictated the means of interpreting them, and considerable leeway was provided. The Talmud and its ongoing study and interpretation is the result. And it's through that divinely sanctioned system of study and interpretation that Orthodox Judaism has (arguably) continued to evolve and to escape the dark ages. Again, adherents of the "progressive" branches would differ. Islam lacks this interpretive outlet, and so is "stuck," as it were, with the literal and rigid language of the Koran. Of course, so are the Karaites, in a sense, but enough.
thesaracen-
Hospitals, libraries, and universities didn't exist until after Islam? You're joking right?
India had some of the first universities in the world - Taxila and Nalanda, of which the latter contained a 9 story library.
Both were destroyed by the Muslims.
And the "Library of Alexandria"? The Christians, in their stupidity, destroyed it, but you can't deny it existed, no?
Sorry. Talk about getting sidetracked...
I actually came here to congratulate Greg for his outstanding documentary as well as for his superb performance on the BBC in the face of an unending, almost comical string of lies by the "interlocator." Bravo!
What does BBC stand for? Bullsh** Broadcasting Center? Sounds like the BBC is a hot house for dispensing disinformation.
champ- thank you for being honest. At least now I can see where our differences lie.
Look 9/11 I only said I didn't believe Muslims done it. Maybe I did go too far because I don't know. All I am saying is the facts presented by the government and the intelligence agencies are seriously flawed. And it's not just Muslims and me that are skeptical, it's whole host of people champ. From experts in the related fields to ordinary people. I'm not saying that Muslims wouldn't be morally capable of such an act, some are more than capable. It's just very strange that all these things happened when the chances of them happening in reality are very slim. The Oklahoma bombing was blamed on Muslims as well, short while after the truth came out.
It's just a waiting game. Until irrefutable evidence is presented, I can't remove the skeptical view on 9/11. And you know if the government really had concrete proof they wouldn't just sit back and let these conspiracy theories go out of control. Even after the 9/11 commission people were still in doubt as the evidence was just not good enough.
They would demonstrate to us skeptics how towers that big can collapse the way they did and why a nearby building collapsed along with them. If four of the hijackers were found to be alive was it in fact 15 hijackers and not 19? How did numerous people manage to make phone calls on aeroplanes at 30,000 feet. When studies have shown that the chances of just one call getting through are next to impossible. I'm not a liar champ, this is what is in front of me and I don't believe it. I don't know who done it. So maybe I was wrong for saying it wasn't Muslims because I'm in doubt.
On Islamic issues champ you will never get one lie out of me. For me to lie and say something that is not in the Quran or the hadith, is a huge sin that can lead me to hell. So I'm very careful, even when my intentions are noble, that I ensure what I write to each and everyone of you is truthful.
The Quran orders Muslims to be just, even if it be against themselves. To be just, I have to be truthful and fair.
I am not biased because there are certain actions that Muslims have done, that I do not agree with.
So look I'm not picking sides. This is about a clam, honest dialogue about Islam. Whatever you want to ask, ask me. I'll try and answer. If I'm not helping you in anyway, then I will not bother you.
champ I am interested in what you have to say. Just list the topics and I'll discuss them with you.
I will respond to challenges as long as they don't cover 700 different points or involve farcical topics.
Blue- I said PUBLIC meaning open solely for the public. Of course there were libraries and hospitals before Islam but none designed for the public as a whole. Furthermore An Islamic university was the first to ISSUE A DEGREE, I didn't say it was the first university.
Lynn- Jesus Christ didn't come for no reason, he came to correct your people to the right path, but you rejected him and tried to kill him. So his message passed from your people to the gentiles. You have nothing to lean on when Christianity succeeded your religion for a justified reason at that.
thes - we may never see eye to eye regarding the events of 9/11, so with that aside for now, I am more than happy to explain my position on Islam. It really boils down to this:
1) I do not embrace Islam because I do not believe that Muhammad was a prophet of God. I believe he is a false prophet.
2) That allah is a false god.
3) I also hate Islams ideologies & practices, which can all be traced back to Muhammad; everything from the murders he committed, to his plundering, to his child bride, and to those who follow in his footsteps - I hate it all - so round and round we go (kind of like this conversation).
You and I have had this conversation before, so this is not new information for you, and I've also explained my faith in Christ to you as well.
thes states: "I am not biased because there are certain actions that Muslims have done, that I do not agree with."
OK - so what are you doing about it? I would think that you would be posting comments on JihadJunkie.com in an effort to confront your fellow Muslims, rather than coming on here to reform Islams critics. What you are doing is very backwards. Do you see that?
thes states: "Jesus Christ didn't come for no reason, he came to correct your people to the right path, but you rejected him and tried to kill him."
Jesus came to die for our sins and to bring us to God, and if you are moved to embrace God’s Son in this way, then tell God in words like these:
Dear God, I’m convinced that Jesus suffered and died for my sins. I gratefully trust in him now as my Lord and my precious Treasure and the only way I’ll ever receive your forgiveness and your promise of eternal life. Amen.
"Forced conversions are more common in the history of Christianity than it is of Islam."
from a post above.
---------------------------------------------
Absolutely FALSE!!!!
Christianity rejects the idea of forced conversion, as conversion is seen not as an external proclamation but internal beliefs, for example:
"that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10).
While it is sadly true that Christians have not always followed the New Testament mandate such as happened to some Jews in Spain, nevertheless both the Orthodox and Catholic Church's have formally forbidden conversions since the ancient ecumenical councils. Where forced conversions have occured, they were usually from one sects of Christianity to another, such as the persecutions of Catholics by Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, and Oliver Cromwell.
In the Roman Church, Pope Innocent III denounced forced conversions repeatedly and the Council of Clermont in its formal declaration of the First Crusade specifically forbade any forced conversions of Jews or Muslims.
Islam, on the other hand, has no such restrictions. We have seen the forced conversions to Islam of thousands of Copts as well as both Catholic and Protestant Indonesians. In Malaysia, we even see the mandatory conversions of Buddhist and Hindu corpses to Islam.
So, while a few fanatics from the Christian or Hindu religions may have engaged in this reprehensible practice, they were acting contrary to the teachings of their faiths. Despite the propaganda, there is simply no comparison with Islam, a religion spread by the sword from the very beginning.
Trollacen--
No longer does 9.11 figure in my general thinking about Islam, yet this perverse ideology concerns me more each day. It is simply a matter of learning about its history and actions and, most importantly, its basis for action-- Islamic scripture. At least in the case of the Koran this is fixed and inviolate. So long as the Islamic understanding of "just" or "innocent" is obscured by its apologists and used by madmen to justify atrocities I will resist it with all my power.
As for your comparisons with Christianity they are absurd. If you have to point at your neighbor when someone accuses you of terrible deeds it means you don't have a leg to stand on. Have some acted by the sword in the name of Christianity? Yes but this has been political and not from the essence or from any commandment of the faith itself. Islam does not have this 'excuse' since there is no separation between the temporal actions and faith of Muslims. It is a matter of what is directly promoted by the ideology itself, with or without "context". Contrary to your assertions, wherever Christianity has been established the pattern is one of harmony with local customs and culture. Christ never dictated how men should arrange themselves in government and other secular matters. In some places (Andes, central Africa) it is difficult to say which has greater importance-- traditional or animist belief, or Christian belief. There are no Christian dhimmis because Christianity is not unbending or totalitarian. But look at your prized Islam-- there is no path to Allah but by reciting the scripture IN ARABIC. Strong yet brittle indeed.
And I was just having this conversation the someone other day-- you have to go back to the Crusades or Pizzaro to get your digs against Christendom while I only have to open yesterday's newspaper.
You seem to feel threatened with all the media hype against (!) Islam. But you also know that most Westerners know virtually nothing about Islam. How will you feel when more people learn what we know to be true?
FYI I have traveled in Arabia and not the sanitized parts. I enjoyed every minute of it, even the food. But Arabia is where Islam and Muslims belong. It does not belong in my country.
I am capable of having a two way conversation if any of you was to meet me in person. I would listen to you and let you finish and then calmly give you my answer. If it's not good enough. That's OK. I'll go away and come back another day after gaining more knowledge.
- thesaracen
Listen to what we say, and then UNDERSTAND it, and not just gloss over as if nothing was said. What good is your willingness to "listen" patiently if you do not understand anything? Does Islamic-anti-freedom-terror-hate-Israel-hate-America-oppressing-with-idiotic-superstitions both their own and all others, and killing and destroying, car burning, church burnings, TODAY!!! mean anything to you? Anything? At all? Does the post above: Posted by: hope_and_justice, where you are taken apart line by line, does that mean anything, anything to you? Do you have anything in your head except old Islamic superstitions and current Islamist propaganda explaining everything in conspiratirial and irrationally insane terms? Do you have any ideas of your own? Can you think? Or was I right, that you should sit in the corner with a dunce cap? Do you UNDERSTAND anything said to you? Or are you just calmly and quietly devoid of all understanding, like a dunce? Listen all you want with all the calm smiling appeal of a good Muslim, but without understanding it is all worth for nothing.
But if you do not understand, then how in God's heaven can anyone have a "two way conversation" with you? It's like talking to a post.... which by the way is not uncommon when discoursing with a Muslim, even a scholarly one, because they never ever respond with a reasonable response... that's "extinction" stuff. Brainwashed humans do not survive into history.
Robert, take a cue from Eastview and run a commentary on the Hagia, the Kaaba and the Al Asqa
Historical evidence is susceptible to distortion and misunderstanding if gaps are not explained and borne out truthfully. Your readers are certainly gaining traction in this regard.
The origins of the Taj may be uncomfortable to some but the root of mischief lie squarely with the Indian government and Archeology Department tasked with maintaining the structure. The government diplomatically avoid issues to the point of dereliction in highlighting historical evidence on record especially after bits of it were carbon dated in the 80s and found to be 300 odd years before Jahan existed.
Historian P N Oak has written extensively on this but it appears that Ghandi buried it during her time as PM. Successive PM's have been silent on this.
Jahan should be made a laughing stock just as the Archbishop of Turin was laughed at when the 'shroud' was found to be a medieval fake.
Robert for your information, a prominent art gallery owner in Malaysia said he wants to paint the majestic residence as it was originally built - He will probably name it - TEJOMALAYA - 1348
Look 9/11 I only said I didn't believe Muslims done it. Maybe I did go too far because I don't know. All I am saying is the facts presented by the government and the intelligence agencies are seriously flawed. And it's not just Muslims and me that are skeptical, it's whole host of people champ. From experts in the related fields to ordinary people. I'm not saying that Muslims wouldn't be morally capable of such an act, some are more than capable. It's just very strange that all these things happened when the chances of them happening in reality are very slim. The Oklahoma bombing was blamed on Muslims as well, short while after the truth came out
LOL If you can't figure out 911 then you can't figure out that Muhammad was a false prophet. I'm not surprised here. You are just another Muslim hooked on fantasy. Muslim irrationality is why Muslim nations are backward cesspools. Muslims don't contribute to scientific knowledge or win Nobel prizes
Other than the addition of minarets - which were a derivative (like cube structures)of Coptic architecture - original Muslim buildings were slight variations of Byzantine structures. In 1974, I toured the "Hagia Sophia" (holy wisdom) cathedral in occupied Constantinople (Istanbul); unfortunately I had to remove my shoes because Muslims turned the 5th century structure into a mosque.
Muslims copy. They refer to Jerusalem as "al-quds"; devout Jews have always used the term, "el-kadish" (or as-kadish). Then there is the matter of those Hebrew "prophets" that they incorporated into their aggression scheme.
champ this is not a comeback. What kind of comeback is that when he gives me a link to an anti-Islamic website and then calls me a foolish troll. - posted by the foolish troll
Sorry, this would be a better reference, TROP:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
10606... and counting... all by your 'religion of peace.'
'Doesn't matter how civilised you are, you won't be able to destroy Islam.'
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the internal logic of your sentence, thesaracen, allude to Islam being far down the civilzational pole?
And you seem to imbue it with cockroach-like properties; forever with us, on this earth. Ick.
Here is another study done on what Islam and its followers has done and is doing now with total destruction, hate, violence ... and nothing else. Plus, supports the video, "Islam: what the west should know"
http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/manussa/tr05manu.htm#ch3c
To all of you who want to hate without at least finding out first. Then hate you won't hear another word from me. I won't respond to it no more. You've pointed a few things out champ, so I hope this can answer your questions.
1) I do not embrace Islam because I do not believe that Muhammad was a prophet of God. I believe he is a false prophet.
I think your statement here is linked to point number (3).
Well Prophet Muhammed pbuh was not a murderer nor did he plunder neither was a paedophile.
If greatness of purpose, smallness of means and astounding results are three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammed pbuh. Is there any man greater he?
Lamrtine- Historie de la Turquie
I have studied him- that wonderful man- and in my opinion far from being an anti-christ, he must be called the savior of humanity
George Benard Shaw- The Genuine Islam
It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These and not the sword, carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle.
Mahatma Ghandi- Young India
Was he murderer?
Firstly even before he was given the first revelation, he was known as a trustworthy and honest person.
The Arabs of the time worshipped idols and forgot God. Muhammed pbuh came to them as a mercy to them from God. ‘Worship God alone, associate no partners with him.’ The Quraish rejected him as a madman straight away but people saw the truth in him and saw that an illiterate man could not make up such revelations. They embraced Islam a few at first. But soon more and more became Muslims. The Quraish were now feeling threatened. They launched 13 years of attack after attack, plot after plot against Muhammed pbuh and the Muslims. They drove them out of Mecca and chased them down. Attacked the few Muslims time and again in Medina. But were each time repelled. Muhammed pbuh treated captives and ordered Muslims to treat them in away you won’t see in today’s world. Muslims gave up their own food so that the captives would be fed well. Never were they forced to convert. Never were they slaughtered.
Forced from his home and tortured; stoned by children, despised by the Guraish because he came with a message, that only asked them to destroy their idols and worship one God.
He called for woman's rights- you know of this. The kind treatment of parents, animals, crops, the protection of places of worship, people of other religions and their places of worship. He could not have been a murderer or false because the Guraish saw his power and offered him everything he desired yet he rejected it, to live a life of obedience to God. He was a man who could have had all of Arabia and it's riches yet gave it up and slept most nights hungry. All you have to do champ is look for this information in the right places and you will find it. Muhammed pbuh was truly an extra-ordinary man.
If he was false champ, it’s hard to explain where the Quran came from. Although they were God’s words they were taught to Muhammed pbuh by the Angel Gabriel. But just look at the Quran. How could a man who was illiterate come up with a book of any kind, never mind a book of clarity and wisdom that the Quran is?
How can he be false when he is asking the followers to worship one God not him?
It’s the same thing Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus (may peace be upon them) preached. Muhammed pbuh was and is the most perfect example of a devout human being, free of worldly desires, who even after he is forgiven for any sins past, present or future, repented relentlessly to God. Once he was asked why he repents to God when he is free from sin only to reply: ‘shouldn’t I be a grateful servant.’ Everything he said or did was an example of how Muslims and mankind should behave and act and worship their Lord. He is a mercy from god to save us from a painful punishment.
2) That allah is a false god.
God is god. We don’t have a different God to you. We worship the same God that created you as well as me. He created the heavens and the earth and everything that’s in it. And one day we will all have to stand before him, where he will ask us what did we do with our lives? And he will ask you did you deny him?
3) I also hate Islams ideologies & practices, which can all be traced back to Muhammad; everything from the murders he committed, to his plundering, to his child bride, and to those who follow in his footsteps - I hate it all - so round and round we go (kind of like this conversation).
Today I was an Islamic youth conference in London. And to be quite honest with you, what I heard awoke me. There are people in high positions in the communities over here and around the world who are not genuine Muslims. But instead brainwash youngsters to hate and to carry out these terrorist attacks. I have not come across them myself. But now I realize why you hate Muslims and you know what I owe you an apology. These are your countries and for providing many people including me a peaceful environment to live in I should respect you and your laws.
Now this is what I was told, not just me but at least 1,000 other young brothers and sisters. What is going on today has absolutely nothing to do with Prophet Muhammed pbuh or Islam. Suicide bombing – wrong, killing innocent people-wrong, hating people because they are from a different religion-wrong. Now you are right to say us Muslims are not doing enough, but what can we do when we don’t come across these people who believe me are very few and far between in this country.
But on the other hand you have to stop this blatant attack on Islam. Because all I see is great people around me, who welcome black, white, Asian, Christian, Jew….. Your war is with what we Muslims refer to as Kharijites, they are renegades who sole purpose is to cause corruption, mischief and hatred between Islam and everyone else.
Prophet Muhammed pbuh would have never have done these things. If that’s what you mean by ideologies then I cannot fault you. As for Islamic teachings champ there is no chapter in the Quran which is detrimental to a human being or the society as a whole. The one thing you may have a problem with is that the Quran calls for us to defend ourselves when we are under attack. But what are we supposed to do? It does not say attack the non-believers beforehand, or treat them badly in Muslim lands or force them to convert and bring them down to 2nd class status. I don’t want to go on forever but you can find all these things if you look in the right places. The Quran from an authorized Islamic website or book. Then you will know, whether it really is your enemy.
The child bride you are referring to I think is Ai’sha who married the Prophet when she was nine. I can’t give you an answer on this because I don’t know the full story. But you call Prophet Muhammed pbuh a pedophile when Prophet Joseph married Mary when she was 12 and he was around 90. Neither of these great men could be described by such a monstrous names. But I will look into it and give you a better answer soon god willing.
Champ- Jesus pbuh should not be worshipped, he is not the son of god nor should you ask him for forgiveness. Do you forget he was a prophet too? Who came to remind people to return to worshipping their Lord. We do no such thing with Muhammed pbuh. We follow his example but nothing more.
Jesus will be questioned by God on the Day of Judgment and he will deny that he ever told you to worship him. Jesus was given the gospel, not the gospels of Mark, John, and Matthew- all people who never met him. How can you trust their word? That’s why you will find the bible littered with contradictions and things that are just not possible.
Thesaracen,
Not to quibble, but you've got wrong 'Joseph' here.
thes - thanks for writing back, but as you will quickly learn from my reply, we will never see eye to eye on either Muhammad or Jesus. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
thes: "Is there any man greater he?" (referring to Muhammad).
>>Yes - Jesus Christ.
thes: "he must be called the savior of humanity"
>>No - Jesus Christ is the savior of humanity.
thes: "I have not come across them myself. But now I realize why you hate Muslims and you know what I owe you an apology. These are your countries and for providing many people including me a peaceful environment to live in I should respect you and your laws."
>>Thank you, I appreciate your stating that.
thes: "But on the other hand you have to stop this blatant attack on Islam."
>>No, I'm sorry, I cannot do that, because of the 3 reasons I outlined before and because allah is not God:
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html
thes: "Prophet Joseph married Mary when she was 12 and he was around 90."
>>Joseph never claimed to be a prophet, nor does the Bible state his exact age. Mary may have been around 14 years old when she and Joseph were betroved, which was normal for that time period.
thes: "Jesus pbuh should not be worshipped, he is not the son of god nor should you ask him for forgiveness."
>>Not so. Jesus is God in the flesh:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-t005.html
thes: "Do you forget he was a prophet too?"
>>Jesus was more than a prophet, He was God in the flesh.
thes: "Jesus will be questioned by God on the Day of Judgment."
>>No. Jesus will be doing the judging:
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:10-11. Amen.
thesaracen,
It is interesting and sad that you feel you must stray from the subject at hand and denigrate Jesus and Christianity. Why is this so? It is a bit like using harsh words against Italian food because you are trying to promote your Ethiopian restaurant. There is no sense in it.
thesaracen,
your quote below;
"It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These and not the sword, carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle.
Mahatma Ghandi- Young India"
thesaracen,whoever you are,I feel you are just one more shameless guy who needed to quote Ghandi for your dirty job of giving respect to Islam when it needs none.Which world are you living in? Do you have eyes ? Can't you see the damage of Islam ? Ghandi was a politician and a lawyer. He was neither a religious authority nor a historical authority.He even justified Holocaust of Jewish people(not denied!)At the age of 70 he admittedly used to sleep with nubile young girls to test if he could still get erections (testing celibacy-Mohd.style)(Autobiography-Expts. with truth)History is having many such personalities that just fooled,enslaved and obfuscated ordinary gullible people to settle their own personal agendas. What prevents God to rescue humanity today? Is He waiting for even some more uglier situation ? Can't you see the Sham around you? Good night.Amen.
Thesaracen,
You said this to Champ:
If you are being truly honest (with that statement), then we can make progress in a true dialog.
You should be able to see, quite clearly now, the purpose and intent of Jihad Watch and Dhimmi Watch.
It is the precise intent of these forums to expose, debate, and refute ANY belief system which seeks to impose it's will on any existing society or social system.
The United States of America is an "inclusive" country. We accept (and have accepted) people from all all over the world in our history. Yes, the USA is the big "melting pot" of the world.
But let us not miss the key word here: Melting pot
Millions upon millions of immigrants in the past 225+ years have successfully assimilated to the ideal of America.
What gets us really rankled is when a certain group of immigrants, freely invited and admitted, start demanding special "rights and protections" according to their beliefs/religions.
A short quiz then:
Currently, in the USA, which group of immigrants (and some natives) do not believe in the Constitution of the United States of America?
Fill in the blank. ____________________________
thes -
I stated: ">>No. Jesus will be doing the judging"
The above passage I provided in Philippians is good, but the below scripture in John best answers my own statement:
John 5:22-23:
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."
Jesus also said, "I and the Father are One."
John 10:30
well Kash I'll think you'll find Ghandi did say these words. The reason I qouted these people is because they are not Muslim. They are not biased and would give you a chance to see that it's not just Muslims who hold Muhammed pbuh in high regard. I can't see the damage of Islam when 1.3 billion people live out their lives in peace and worship to god. The rest are nutters and the 20,000 or so involved in these acts of terrorism are in no way an example of Islam. Best thing to do is to leave their countries. Stop messing around with their governments and you may not see these people blow themselves up. Had it been the way round. I swear to God you would be doing exactly the same. No people on this earth would accept a foreign occupation. Not just Muslims.
boneshack- The constitution separates religion from law. I can assure you it's not just the Muslims who disagree with parts of it. There are truthful Christians who I'm sure don't recognise many things in the constitution. Then again the only things in that constitution a Muslim can reject are those which go against his religious beliefs. I'm sure the constitution has many parts which call for social order, no Muslim can reject those. The intent of jihadwatch is going way beyond exposing these terrorists. Thats what I dislike. It thinks Islam has something to do with it and is trying to create a link that isn't there. Are you trying to disgrace the work of terrorists or are you glorify them? I'm telling you there is no link but it's almost as if you want it to be there; you'll disagree with anything I say on the matter. Is it Islam you hate, when it's laws are full of beauty and wisdom or is it these terrorists?
Even though I have said it before. It's very strange that we would seek to impose sharia on foreign lands when we don't do it in our own lands.I think that issue is reported in the media in an unfair way. We want our own Khilafah - all the Muslim nations under one banner. But you will not let it happen. By peaceful means or not it will not happen.
The Archbishop of Canterbury of here said that Muslims should be allowed to deal with certain issues such as marriage disputes in the way they choose i.e their sharia courts at mosques- informal meetings with Sheikhs.
Media- Oh he's a traitor calling for sharia to replace the law. Did he say that?
In Somalia, after 20 years of corruption and killing, peaceful people took over who wanted Islam back in. The people supported them. They weren't terrorist, they bought law and order to that place. But you wouldn't let it happen, you'd much rather have the war lords in charge. If you allow these countries to decide their own fates, then you won't have to worry about immigration and sharia replacing your laws.
champ- if thats what you believe, I'm not here to force you to believe something else. I've give you an answer one day I hope it may become useful for you.
know that the Qu'ran is a miracle though in that an illiterate man somehow knew how you worship God, and what lies ahead. He had no knowledge of other scriptures before Allah revealed the Qu'ran to him, so how did he know?
[29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."
[29:47] We have revealed to you this scripture, and those whom we blessed with the previous scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.
29:48] You did not read the previous scriptures, nor did you write them with your hand. In that case, the rejectors would have had reason to harbor doubts.
[29:49] In fact, these revelations are clear in the chests of those who possess knowledge. Only the wicked will disregard our revelations.
When a group of Muslims escaped to Ethiopia. The Christian king questioned them on what they knew about Jesus Christ pbuh. Astounded as to what they knew from the Qu'ran, he gave them sanctuary in his land.
We follow his example but nothing more.
saracen,
Thank you for reminding us. But you are a bit too late.
More and more are getting aware of the fact that you do follow the example of one of the history's most revolting monsters. You steal, lie, rape, murder. Exactly like your revolting ogre-prophet.
That is why one day, God willing, we will kick your disgusting mohammedan bunch back to the shithole of history from which we so kindly and so naively let you crawl out. Let's see then what your muhammet and allah can do for you once the civilized world will vomit you.
An Armenian told me once that the Taj Mahal structure had been built by Armenisnass.
thesaracen,
you have lot of arguments to support your/Islam's agenda.It is typical of those who will confuse issues deliberately and then in that resultant cloud in the minds of ordinary gullible people push and promote whatever you have good or bad forcefully or otherwise. Its part of the methodology of Islam, no rocket science in this. Had there been No Oil in Mid East , there would not have been need of this forum. Just like Industrialised countries have Nuclear Power so is your Oil Power and not any Allah/Islamic Power. Islam is trying balance against Nature. Nature defeats all those who came in its way. Islam is no exception. There is so much to do in this world like removing Poverty , Illiteracy , Ignorance and so many other ills. Please do not attribute causes for these to wrong places/nations. Please blame your leaders who only confuse the mass of people. Why do you need the crutches of Religion to achieve the noble objectives of positive change in the world. Do it without religion and there will be more gains. To learn new things sometimes you need first to do some delearning. Shake off the useless religious dogmas of past and enter New World. Look forward not backwards where Ghandi is.
The constitution separates religion from law.
Posted by: thesaracen
Its separation of church and state, not church and law, the church is not above the law.
In other words, state sponsored religion is forbidden.
What was that you were saying about not recognizing parts of the constitution?
thes -
I found this comment on another thread that I wanted you to read because I completely agree with him; and I hope he doesn't mind my reposting his comment:
"There is no 'moderate' ISLAM.
'Moderate' ISLAM is a mythical creature which *only* flourishes in *non-muslim* nations.
Nothing about ISLAM is, 'moderate'.
Nothing.
To examine the evidence [of what ISLAM is], and then for a non-muslim person to maintain that there is 'a moderate ISLAM', is delusional.
Anyone who is a 'nice', non-violent person, who calls himself a 'muslim', is in fact an *apostate* muslim.
I'll say it again, such is in fact an *apostate* muslim.
Such a person, is *not* a muslim.
People who would try to promote ISLAM to you as something different, as a 'religion', or as peaceful, are either deluded, or they are purposely LYING TO YOU.
Look at the evidence in the world.
Its not rocket science.
ISLAMIC doctrine on apostates.....
The Koran instructs muslims, to take no apostates as friends. And when they oppose you [in Allah's way], kill them. [i.e. ex-muslims, are non-muslims!]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html#004.088 & 89
The Hadith instructs muslims, "...If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him." [comment... ex-muslims are, just more 'non-muslims' to hate, and kill]
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.260"
Posted by: Ezekiel2012
Thesaracen,
I realize that this whole thread has been hijacked by you (and certainly not the first time).
As you may not realize, the purpose of JW is expose and refute all attempts by Islam to impose the doctrine of "Allah" and Muhammed on existant non-Muslim lands.
Nonetheless, you said something above I can not let pass. Let me explain:
BurgerBoy answered that confusion quite eloquently.
I can assure you, Sir, there are no truthful Christians who deny one single statement or element of the Constitution.
This thought is clearly ignorant and dangerous. Anyone, no matter what background, color, race or creed, who does not support the United States Constitution completely and fully does NOT belong in the United States, nor deserve citizenship.
Muslims do not have any special "protected status" in the United States. It's simple: You don't play by the rules, you will be dealt with! Got it?
Recognize this famous statement?
What part of We the people do some Muslims in the United States have a problem with?
I grant you that the vast majority of Muslims in the United States do not have a problem with this concept. Our fight is those who think themselves above the laws of Man, and choose to ignore those laws & precepts that go counter to the will of "Allah".
This is our fight, in essence, here at JW. If Islam would just be quiet and confine itself to Saudi Arabia, then our mission here would be useless.
But back to the thread topic at hand. A beautiful building, indeed! I shall put a visit there on my wishlist.
Good night!
champ- I'm not some youth who is easily persuaded into believing something. I know of certain things and many other things I have either a lack of knowledge of or none at all. There are certain things I forget and I need to be reminded of such as all Muslims are good people, with good intentions, which is not true. Some of them are hypocrites whose intentions are solely to create problems for the Muslims. Now I know who these people are. I know enough about my religion to be able to differentiate between right and wrong.
Your statement about how Islam is not peaceful, is clear proof, that regardless of what you read and hear, you will never see Islam in a way different to the perverted one you have now. You have a belief that is totally wrong.
I've told you all you have to do is open a Qu'ran read a few surahs and you'll know for yourself. Go out there and meet Muslims, chat to them, see if they are these mindless thugs you believe they are. Why do you need a Shepard to guide you? Particularly one whose whole life is aimed at distorting the religion. Why doesn't Spencer give you a balanced image of Islam? He is aware that if he did that, within two weeks you would not think the same way. The parts of the Qu'ran you don't like are those which are alien to your culture.
I can't go on discussing topics with you if all you will do is flatly deny them. Bring up a new topic without discussing the previous topic. You should read what I have to say, If I'm wrong tell me why I'm wrong.
When you say moderate I'm confused. Why should a Muslim be moderate? Should a Christian be moderate? If you are devoted to your religion then I think thats a good thing. This guy is right in saying Islam doesn't recognise the term moderate. In terms of worship absolutely not. Why should I be a 'moderate' who ignores certain Islamic rulings because they seem 'bad' or extreme. But if all your doing is indulging in good deeds and righteousness, hey If I could do that I wouldn't complain. There are certain things we cannot over indulge in. So be moderate to a degree in those cases. It's not like to be a moderate is the ideal state for a human to be. What is your definition of moderate?
If it's to do everything in moderation, then hell, I can be a rapist, but I'll do it moderation, that's Ok. In Islam, you have to or you can do this.... but you can't do this..... nothing in between.
(4:88-89) Is regarding hypocrites not apostates. They are not the same thing. Hypocrites claim to be Muslims, but are really out there to create problems for the Muslims. Apostates were Muslim but left Islam.
The second link is regarding apostates. Now I'm not sure from what I have read whether the punishment should or should not be death. I have discussed this before. I've always believed apostasy should be punished by death as it is treason and the person who did it, must have had intentions which weren't limited to him i.e he/she is trying to create doubt in the hearts and minds of other Muslims. But you know what apostasy is something that rarely happens with Muslims. By that I mean totally leaving the religion. If your argument to this is because we are fearful of the punishment, then I live in a non-Muslim country, were I would not die for leaving Islam, why don't I leave the religion? Why don't the other Muslims leave in their thousands?
The law is what it is I can't question Sharia, which is designed to keep evil human desires in check. It is the most perfect of laws, which sadly is just not followed in this world. If it was followed, people would think twice before committing adultery or robbery or rape or murder, because the punishment would deter them. If they are deterred, then few of these acts will happen. For apostasy however I'm proof that it is not something that is even considered by a Muslim, regardless of Sharia or not.
Strange how you have the death penalty for certain crimes including treason I might add and In Britain people would welcome the return of capital punishment for certain crimes. But Sharia, no.. it's different, it's wrong, it's evil.
boneshack- Christianity recognises homosexuals does it? How about abortion?
Not just Muslims who disagree with these laws, they may grin and bear them but they don't accept them...
I don't belong in the United States anyway my freind..
You think Muslims don't do shit in your country. How deluded are you? You'll find, they work and pay their taxes like everyone else.
Muslims are not asking for any special treatment. Respect their religion like you respect all the others. KEEP YOUR LAW! Whose asking for it to be ours?
If you go to my first post, WHAT WAS I TALKING ABOUT??????
'If Islam would just be quiet and confine itself to Saudi Arabia, then our mission here would be useless'
I don't think that will stop the west from wanting to attack it or you for that matter. The People of Iraq, confined themselves to Iraq, did they not?
And you know what boneshack as long as people ask I will always reply. Do they care about the topic when they say Islam is this and that, when the post is about Taj Mahal? Stop talking rubbish.
Thesaracen,
Still awake this late? I'm impressed!
Not relevant to this conversation.
Yes, as they should. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and all others. The United States is a Republic, governed by the consensus of the People, not God.
Yes, we know that. By all clues, you live in the UK, probably in or around London.
Putting words in my mouth again, are you? Muslims have this great fear of "Allah". You know what's worse than "Allah". It's called the IRS!
Well, yes, just about every day. Do you not read all of the articles here at JW/DW?
How about this, for a start?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020085.php#comments
"Respect their religion." Most of the 'sheeples' try to. "KEEP YOUR LAW!" It the foundation and law of the United States of America. Not Canada, not Australia, not the United Kingdom, not Germany, not Denmark, not Russia, not Turkey, not Iraq. We do not, and never have, imposed "our" laws on any other country.
"Islam is wonderful, you're all full of sh**, blah blah blah...."
'If Islam would just be quiet and confine itself to Saudi Arabia, then our mission here would be useless'
I don't think that will stop the west from wanting to attack it or you for that matter. The People of Iraq, confined themselves to Iraq, did they not?
Personally, I don't care for one minute who did what and who built what over something else.
Let's just agree that the Taj Mahal is fine testament to the ingenuity and creativity of Man, the human, the person. And leave religion out of the equation.
Thesaracen,
Sorry, I want to amend that last post to clarify "who said what" (to keep the flow, that is).
----------------------------------------------
'If Islam would just be quiet and confine itself to Saudi Arabia, then our mission here would be useless'
You have completely missed the point of my remark above.
"The People of Iraq, ..." again demonstrates that you can NOT defend your argument without introducing a 'strawman'. Sorry, not this time.
Personally, I don't care for one minute who did what and who built what over something else.
Let's just agree that the Taj Mahal is fine testament to the ingenuity and creativity of Man (the human, the person) and leave religion out of the equation.
Your statement about how Islam is not peaceful, is clear proof, that regardless of what you read and hear, you will never see Islam in a way different to the perverted one you have now. You have a belief that is totally wrong.
I've told you all you have to do is open a Qu'ran read a few surahs and you'll know for yourself..
Regardless of what we read and hear?
How telling that he doesn't say: "Regardless of what you read, hear AND SEE".
Really, one must be comatose not to see from the monstrous acts of savagery carried out by pious mohammedans every day that Islam is first of all a murderous fury bent on cleansing the planet from everything free, beautiful, rational and true; in other words everything unislamic. And that is how that hateful cult has been acting from the day when a deranged, sadistic psychopath declared himself a prophet of allah, the moon-god.
But even if one limits himself to "reading and hearing" as the saracen suggests; there is endless literature, million history tomes, thousands of blogs (including this one), infinity of personal testimonies - all confirming the evil savagery at the heart of the islam. So how the hell does his “regardless of what you read” can make sense?
Yes, Taqiyah is a two-edged sword; and one of them makes its user stupid.
And if one is really not convinced of the evil of islam there is still Koran and the hadiths. Here I absolutely agree with saracen; all non-moslems should read these disgusting documents, so they may get rid of the remnants of illusions about islam should they still harbour some.
A very few non-mohammedans are not appalled, disgusted and shocked by that record of cruelty, treachery, rapine and conquest and its perpetual call for murder and subjugation of the infidel. Please friends make an effort control your gag reflex and boredom and try to read that menu of horrors.
But I think most baffling and bizarre for the non-moslem is to experience the unquestioning, stupid and slavish, indeed zombi-like veneration of the monster Mohammed. It is most unfathomable mystery for a normal (non-mohammedan) person that anyone may degrade oneself to adore someone so infinitely evil as mohammad.
Nothing illustrates better the futility of debating a muhammedan than this simple powerful fact; -they worship someone we must abhor. We and Mohammedans inhabit two absolutely different and opposing moral universes.
Indeed, I never start a discussion about islam before asking the opponent a simple question: "do you agree that Muhammud was a pig?" If I don't hear a clear "yes" I am not interested in further discussion.
So dear Boneshack, Champ and the rest of the good people who responded to the islamic manure left by saracen here; YOU HAVE BEEN WASTING YOUR TIME - NOTHING CAN WAKE UP A MUHAMMEDAN ZOMBI.
Let’s concentrate on a question which is infinitely more relevant to survival of our freedom; - How do we go about expelling the muhammedan invaders from our lands? Nothing is more important that that.
Hi Thomas. h -
I completely agree with everything you stated to thes, and I also agree that thes is an utter waste of my time, and if I thought that he was the only one reading these comments, then I wouldn't even bother writing him back.
But I know that others read these comments too, and it's really for them that I make a feeble attempt at setting the record straight on thes' wrong-headed accounts of Christ, even if the readers I'm thinking of only exist in my mind.
The survival of our freedom is of the utmost importance to me as well; I too want to stop Muslim immigration and to send them all packing back to Islamaland - believe me I do - but I also feel it important [when it comes up] to defend the toxic thinking where Christ is concerned, because I think that is important too.
Take care!
We've drifted off topic, but this needs an answer:
thesaracen:
So you hold your Koran above the law of the land, our US Constitution? Then why are you here? Start packing, and move to the Sharia paradise of your choice. Here are some to choose from: Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, north Nigeria, Aceh Indonesia, Sudan, etc.
How about these links, read your bloody book Koran?
• 4.34: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
• 5.51: O you who believe! Do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
• 8.39: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
• 9.5: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
• 9.25: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Or feel Allah’s love:
• 22.19: These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
• 22.20: With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
• 22.21: And for them are whips of iron.
There are many more, the above list is not all inclusive, not that anything said to you leads to any deeper understanding. Then read this: Muslims against Sharia
http://www.reformislam.org/verses.php
When you have gained a modicum of understanding of your own ‘religion’ full of Allah’s coercive passages against humanity, come back and discuss it intelligently.
Or feel Allah’s love:
• 22.19: These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
• 22.20: With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
• 22.21: And for them are whips of iron.
posted by: Battle_of_Tours
God's love makes me feel warm & peaceful - while Allah's love seems to produce different sensations.
Chilling passages, BoT!
Well what can I say. I have been respectful to you all and from time to time lost my cool with those who went too far.
I don't expect any apology from you, but I do apologise for referring to you in ways you disliked. That goes to all of you.
I'm accused all the time of not addressing the issues or not being one to discuss with, but the problem is you don't fully read and appreciate some of the things I have to say. Some of the points I cover, go right down to the crux of the matter.
The only thing wrong with them, is that they are not what you want to hear. You want to hear me agree with you on Islam and I would if I couldn't interpret it the correct way.
How can you claim to have knowledge on Islam, when 99% of your knowledge comes from those who despise the religion. I have shown you almost every single time that words have either been left out and previous or subsequent verses have been deliberately omitted to leave you with a verse that says, 'kill them wherever you find them.'
I've given you rational answers to things you have asked me. To the things you accuse Islam of, I've told you, God created human beings with free will, if they commit suicide and take the lives of innocent people with them; how can I as a Muslim support it, when the Quran tells me not to kill myself. Blood is on their hands and they will stand before God and held accountable. But it's not as if your soldiers are any better. The captives are tortured and killed, bombs are dropped in areas where many people will die, fighter pilots target people on the radar who are just fleeing. The whole war has no justification and it's in your name. How can you be civilised human beings, when people are dying for no fault of their own, many of them children and the best you can say is lets ban Muslim immigration?
I would never judge a whole group of people on the actions of a few of them. For your own sakes get rid of this hatred and go beyond jihadwatch for your knowledge.
I'm not here to make it seem as if I'm better than you, because I will be judged on my deeds, just as you will be. And merely being a Muslim, with a Muslim name will not spare me from punishment.
I see I'm not helping anyone and usually post replies knowing I will be called a 'troll.'
So be it, I'm more than willing to take the blows for my people and my religion.
As a Muslim living in your lands, I do respect your laws and your way of life, I'm not here to make it ours. Far from it. Never been on the wrong side of your law for that matter.
I'm also here to remind you, that the vast majority of Muslims would much rather live in peace.
Thats all I am going to say, so I hope I have at least given you a positive image of Islam. I'd rather now take a backseat to further my own knowledge, as all your doing is helping me to know more about my religion and never will I find a verse or a hadith, which is detrimental to you or me or society as a whole.
To my many 'adversaries,' take care of yourselves
Saracen, you keep saying you're providing rational answers but you're doing anything but. If you can't make an argument without lying and dredging up fake quotes to back it up, then your argument must be really bad to begin with.
For example, your BBC story about the misidentification of a few of the 9-11 hijackers is dated September 23, 2001, just two weeks after the event, and yet you imply that they are "turning up alive" now. In fact, while you've referenced this story for your conspiracy nonsence a few times in this thread, there's a link to the BBC's own 2006 update(!) at the bottom of the page. And what does the update say? That the BBC regrets the use of the story in furtherance of conspiracy theories about 9-11, because the confusion was simply over a few commonly used names and that, furthermore, there has never been any question raised as to the identity of the hijackers. So much for your "proof."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html
For just one other example ('cause I could go on for a while here) your "quote" from George Bernard Shaw is fake, although widespread, which a few minutes of research would reveal. GBS never authored a book or article called "The Genuine Islam" or anything similar.
http://www.shawsociety.org/Chronology-of-Works.htm
There was, apparently, possibly, a conversation with GBS related by someone else in a Malay periodical by that name which may or may not be the source of that "quote," but he is said to have disavowed the truth and/or accuracy of it in any case. Fascinating, BTW, that the only reference anywhere online to that periodical is this idiotic quote you found.
Also fascinating that this thread is still going (or maybe not), but you do manage to push people's buttons (yes, your sickening antisemitic comment is also duly noted).