'Independent' Kosovo: A threat, not a country

James George Jatras, director of the American Council for Kosovo, explains in WorldNetDaily why Kosovar independence is so ill-advised:

Abraham Lincoln was fond of asking the rhetorical question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Five? No, calling a tail a leg don't make it a leg."

That pretty much sums up the recent unilateral declaration of independence by Albanian Muslims in the Serbian province of Kosovo. Several countries, disgracefully led by the United States, have recognized Kosovo. Major media have hailed creation of the "world's newest country." But calling Kosovo a country doesn't make it one.

Serbia has denounced the move as the illegal creation of a "separatist entity" on its sovereign territory and has handed down criminal indictments against several of the top Albanian Muslim leaders. Now under way is a sharp global competition to see which governments will recognize Kosovo and which will not. Under heavy pressure from the U.S. State Department, most European countries will meekly comply. Some, like Cyprus with its Turkish-occupied north and Spain with its Basque separatist movement, will not.

In short, an action State Department bureaucrats touted as "settling Kosovo's status" has resulted in anything but. Outside of Europe, the picture is even fuzzier. Russia will reject Kosovo's independence, and expected to take the same line are China, India, Indonesia, Nigeria, South Africa, Brazil and many others. Russia will veto any effort to extend Kosovo membership in the United Nations.

Any sovereign state with restive ethnic or religious minorities would recognize Kosovo at its own peril. What Washington seeks to inflict on Serbia today could be the fate of the American southwest tomorrow. Israel, in particular, is closely pondering its next move. While loath to anger Washington, Jerusalem must consider that a Kosovo precedent could, absent any negotiated agreement, prompt proclamation of a Palestinian state, to be recognized by Arab and Muslim regimes. The same precedent could apply to heavily Muslim areas such as Galilee and the Negev within Israel's formal borders.

At a special press briefing, outgoing Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Nicholas Burns – who is often mentioned as a possible secretary of state under a Democratic administration – hailed support for Kosovo from the Organization of the Islamic Conference and Muslim governments. Happily claiming that a "vastly majority Muslim state" has been carved out of Serbia, a European Christian country, Burns said: "We think it is a very positive step that this Muslim state, Muslim majority state, has been created today."

Burns' remarks reflect a desperate hope by the Bush administration that displays of American pro-Islamic favoritism in the Balkans and support for a Palestinian state (its domination by Hamas notwithstanding) will buy the good will of hostile devotees of the "religion of peace and tolerance." Their gratitude is manifest in the jihad terror plot to attack Fort Dix, N.J., where four of the six defendants are Albanian Muslims from the Kosovo region. The offenders' presence in the United States – three of them illegal aliens and one brought to the U.S. by the Clinton administration as a refugee, another example of "gratitude" – stems from the fact that a broadly based support network for the terrorist "Kosovo Liberation Army," KLA, has been allowed to operate with impunity in the New York-New Jersey-Pennsylvania area, raising funds and collecting weapons, not to mention peddling influence with American politicians.

Meanwhile, Christian Serbs in Kosovo are bracing for the worst. "We are all expecting something difficult and horrible," said Bishop Artemije, pastor of Kosovo's Orthodox Christians. "Our message to you, all Serbs in Kosovo, is to remain in your homes and around your monasteries, regardless of what God allows or our enemies do."

The bishop's flock has good reason to fear. Far from the usual claims that NATO stopped a humanitarian catastrophe in Kosovo in 1999, the past nine years have seen a slow-motion genocide in progress against the province's Christian Serbian population under the nose of the U.N. and NATO, and at times with their facilitation. Two-thirds of the Serbian population already has been expelled and have not been able to return safely to their homes, along with similar proportions of other groups (Roma, Gorani, Croats and all the Jews). Over 150 churches and monasteries have been destroyed, with crosses and icons of Christ attracting particular vandalistic rage, a testament to Kosovo Albanians' supposed secularism and pro-Western orientation.

Hundreds of new Saudi-funded mosques fomenting the extreme Wahhabi doctrine have sprung up. Kosovo is visibly morphing from part of Europe into part of the Middle East. In contrast to Under Secretary Burns' cheerleading, former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. John Bolton has warned: "Kosovo will be a weak state susceptible to radical Islamist influence from outside the region, with the support from some Albanians, in other words, a potential gate for radicalism to enter Europe." If allowed to consolidate, an independent Kosovo would become a way station toward an anti-American, anti-Israel, anti-Christian "Eurabia."

Around the world, jihad terror usually goes hand-in-hand with organized crime. Kosovo is the perfect case in point. The supposed authorities of the would-be state are themselves kingpins in the Albanians Mafia, whose network extends throughout Europe and has a significant presence in New York City. Besides all the international aid dumped down the Kosovo rat hole, or carted off by corrupt officials, the only real "industry" is crime: drugs (heroin from Afghan opium), slaves (kidnapped women and children from Moldova, Ukraine and other countries brought in for local "service" – there are lot of lonely international bureaucrats in Kosovo – or shipped off into Europe), and weapons (the missile that hit the U.S. Embassy in Athens in 2006 and the explosives used in the London and Madrid train bombings came through Kosovo).

What will happen now in Kosovo? It would be up to the KLA and their supporters to decide whether to kick off a new cycle of violence by attacking Serbs who refuse to submit to their "authority." Serbia in fact has been beefing up its legitimate state institutions in areas where Serbs are concentrated, which the Albanians have threatened to shut down as – believe it or not – illegal separatist structures. We will see if the political violence unleashed by the act of recognition will be matched by physical violence on the ground. Meanwhile, Serbia will undertake undisclosed countermeasures to undermine the illegally declared KLA- and Mafia-ruled entity and force resumption of negotiations to achieve a valid settlement. Let us hope they succeed.

With a stoke of his pen, President Bush, by heeding the State Department's bad advice to recognize a supposedly independent Kosovo, has triggered the perfect international storm: shattering the principle of the territorial integrity of sovereign nations, encouraging violent separatists worldwide, provoking a needless confrontation with Russia and other countries, boosting the jihad terrorist and organized crime threat to Europe and America, and creating conditions for a human rights and religious freedom nightmare. In terms of far-reaching consequences, it may the worst blunder of his presidency. Which is saying a lot.

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95 Comments

It feels kind of strange to be on the same side of a political/ideological debate as Russia and China.

Thank you Robert, for framing this issue in such an insightful way. Your description of this as a "perfect storm" in the making seems to be apt. It is a frightening Pandora's box we just opened up.

One of the big questions concerning Kosovo is, what will Russia do when violence once again starts ripping the place apart? If Moscow decides to intervene, as some reports speculate, will NATO then jump into the fray to protect the entity they (the U.S., actually, i.e., Clinton, Albright and Holbrook) so unceremoniously ripped out of Serbia? Does the U.S. even have the resources necessary for a response?

Tito must be spinning in his grave.

Godefroi, it does feel strange, doesn't it, to be on the same side of an issue as Russia and China? When's the last time that happened?

Spain has two separatist movements; one Basque and the other Catalonian. As the EU government in Brussels calls more and more of the shots for the EU as a whole, national identity means less and less. Per Jonah Goldberg, the irony of this all encompassing "unity" could be the fragmentation of the existing European States into dozens of new mini states. These may well include all Muslim enclaves in France and England as well in the former territories held by the Ottoman Empire. So all you multiculturalists out there, be careful what you wish for!

Cheers,

Not surprising with Bush & Rice, two bricks short of a load themselves.

This whole incident is the equivelent to this analogy:

All the Muslims of America move to the state of Delaware, riot and protest(some violently) to secede from the nation. These new migrants then vote to become a separate country within the US territory because now they are the majority in Delaware and they gain acceptance from the international community for their plight to be free from US control.

Would the US gov. support that "proclaimation of freedom"? This is what Serbia is fighting now, and it is shameful that our government is supporting this.

What I fear is that this will be seen as a blueprint for other separatists to follow. Slowly erroding the strength and sovereignty of nations.

Do not be suprised if there is another Balkins war erupting, once Russia takes action in support of brother Serbia to help it take Kosovo back.

Great article by James Datras.

It is true that Kosovo was stolen from the Serbs by Albanian Muslims. The taking of Kosovo would have never occurred without support from the west.

Hopefully, the Russians and Chinese will send in their troops into Kosovo.

Serbs need to demand that the U.N. and Nato troops cease illegally occupying Kosovo.

The Serbs have legal justification to demand a full withdrawal.

Although I am American, I am completely anti-American and anti-Nato regarding the Kosovo situation.

Canada's muslim population has doubled since 9/11.

No doubt the muticulti cover story is covering our desire for suicide.

Ecce the sleeping (but not you Grover Norquist) American response of the sleepy fellow bedmate to the declaration: "go back to sleep dear, it is nothing" - relating to the self declared independance of the islams of Kosovo.

Ye sleep at your peril O defenders of the ramparts while the enemy works within.

Will you wake before it is too late for anything but capitulation or bloodshed ?

God bless the West.

Robert, hope you don't mind me posting this again. It is very important to know the context.

"Yugoslavia - The Avoidable War":

1. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571

2. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6371060303901674397


What do you think to create pages for every region (Balkans, Israel, etc.) with detailed information about Jihad and the role of western powers?

Very good article about the ramifications of the betrayal of Serbia by the US, the EU and the UN:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2988

"He (McCain) did everything that we asked of him, including arming the KLA", said Albanian lobbyist Joe DioGuardi. The Albanians collected one million dollars for the presidential campaign of this senator.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1970022/posts

Michael Savage warned us about this years ago when NATO actions first began, and has been repeating those warnings ever since.


America's recognition of Kosovo has been stage managed, orchestrated and brought to fruition by Bush's Saudi masters. Kosovo itself with its vandalized pissed-on churches and incongruously grandiose Wahabi mosques built with OUR oil money is a proud little monument to heroin, hate and sex slavery and the capstone to Bush's career. It's a doozy of a capstone.

Looks like almost all countries in the world that have separatist campaigns are balking at recognizing 'KosovA'. This includes Islamic Indonesia, which given the potential (and justified) separatists they could be facing - self preservation obviously trumped ummah solidarity in this case.

As Srjda Trifkovic pointed out, the populations of countries that won't recognize Serbia is twice that of those that will. Even if one removes China and India from the mix, there still is an overwhelming number of countries that just won't put up with this charade in diplomatic circles.

AP News Story:
"After Kosovo: Next stop Greater Albania?"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080221/ap_on_re_eu/greater_albania

The MSM is already entertaining the idea of "Greater Albania". Why was the idea of "Greater Serbia" treated by NATO as a fascist plot, when greater Albania can be considered liberation? I don't blame Serbia for demanding the secession of the Bosnia Serbs.

CTYankee,

There's big difference. Serbs were always naive enough to believe in another idea - "union of southern Slavs" - Yugoslavia. Contrary to western propaganda, even Milosevic was not "Serbian nationalist", he was not defending Serbia - he was defending Yugoslavia. And there lies the tragedy of my people, while everyone else was defending their own interests, our "leader" was defending dead Yugoslavia which no longer existed. Even today, Serbia is only genuine multinational and multicultural country in the region. There was no "Greater Serbia" idea.

And "Greater Albania" is a project started long time ago, with results only when helped by Nazis and today, unfortunately, by NATO alliance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prizren_League

Isn't this part and parcel of George W. Bush's drive to establish new independent jihadist states around the globe? Some would answer, "Well, Bill Clinton began this process. It's only fair that Bush would continue it."

Because one administration engages in foolish behavior, should this establish a precedent for future administration? Because the administration prior to the Abraham Lincoln administration, did not challenge the terrible U.S. Supreme Court Dred Scott decision, does this mean Lincoln should have followed suit?

Caroline Glick, Jerusalem Post editor, rightly warned of this impending disaster. Mr. Bush is also pushing for the establishment of a Muslim terror-killer state in the Holy Land.

It only follows, Bush's recognition of a Muslim terror state in the heart of Europe should result in the recognition of another Muslim terror state in the heart of the Middle East.

How many Jihadwatch readers, I wonder, are George W. Bush supporters?

see today's NYT coverage: it's already all about Serbians threatening violence and daring to secede. Liberal mind does not abide its own absurdity.
I am also surprised we havent heard from Respublika Srpska in Banja Luka - if now is not a good time to leave Bosniaks to their sharia, when else?

Am I the only one who remembers the hew and cry of the Clinton Administration for an air war on Serbia for the sake of stopping "ethnic cleansing" in Kosovo? Am I the only one who remembers that the US Military was dead set against it, but that Clinton and Albright found a willing lackey in Gen. Wesley Clark, who then proceeded to bomb trams crammed with civilians in Belgrade? And am I the only one who remembers the solemn promises made by the Clinton Administration (to, among others, the French, who still feel some gratitude for Serbia's assistance in WWI) that this was NOT a prelude to Kosovar independence? And am I the only one amazed that, after we committed those horrific and, worse, stupid aggressions, nobody seemed to notice that Kosovo still descended into ethnic cleansing, only this time it was the Muslims doing it to the Serbs who had remained? Serbia has every reason to be outraged and the politicians and media types who urged that unjust aggression have a lot to answer for. They'll have more to answer for when Kosovo becomes a springboard for Islamic terrorism in Europe, but, by then, nobody will be around to pin the blame on.

Godefroi,

"It feels kind of strange to be on the same side of a political/ideological debate as Russia and China."

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Seriously, it is a crazy weird world and sometimes what is right aligns with other interests that are strange or shady. US and Stalin in WWII against Hitler, for example.

Bush is a clown and has always been. Is it possible to be more stupid than him?

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_IJlHxsjiwk

I was just watching Fox News--there are widespread protests--both peaceful and not so peaceful--in Serbia over the declation of an independent Kosovo.

Apparently the US embassy in Belgrade--already evacuated--has been attacked. Reports seem to vary: at first, it was said that the embassy had been set ablaze, later, that protestors were burning American flags in front of the building.

Perhaps most disheartening was the news anchor's responses--she was totally nonplussed. When she heard that the embassy had been attacked, she asked the local correspondant if there was a chance that the perpetrators were Al-Qaeda! The correspondent was certainly a bit more on the ball, but opined that Serbs were upset at Kosovo's ceding just because they were loathe to see the old Yugoslavia break up further.

There was no mention of Serbs being driven out of Kosovo, or of attacks on Orthodox Christian churches and monastaries. I don't think this was intentional--no one seemed to know anything about it.

The most disturbing thing is, that Fox is hardly the worst of the MSM.

One of the causes that led to this alarming event [Kossovo independence] is the ignorance of history in the West, including ignorance on the part of self-styled intellectuals. This ignorance is exploited by those in the West who want to produce pro-Muslim jihadist changes. It affects Yugoslavia & Serbia, Israel, Lebanon, etc.
Few recall today that Serbs in Kossovo were severely oppressed by Muslim Albanians while the area was still under the Ottoman Empire. This oppression was officially recognized at one time by France. See link:

http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-they-dont-want-you-to-know-about.html

Likewise, it is widely forgotten or unknown that Jews in Arab/Muslim states were oppressed, humiliated, exploited as dhimmis for more than a thousand years.

ThePatriot wrote:

"This whole incident is the equivelent to this analogy:

"All the Muslims of America move to the state of Delaware, riot and protest(some violently) to secede from the nation. These new migrants then vote to become a separate country within the US territory because now they are the majority in Delaware and they gain acceptance from the international community for their plight to be free from US control."
------------------------------------------

If you adopt the perspective of the European Unionists, a better analogy would be if all the Mexicans in California demanded that California be split into two states instead of one. The new state would then get its own state government, state flag, state bird, state driver's license, two U.S. senators, and the present number of California congressional representatives gets reapportioned between the old and new states according to population. A new star gets added to the American flag.

Of course, where this analogy breaks down is that the new MexAmerican state would not get to establish its own foreign policy and be represented in the UN, as presumably Kosovo will be demanding to do if they are both admitted to the EU.

Since both Serbia and the new Kosovo appear to want to join the EU, my analogy above would have to be modified so that California isn't presently part of the U.S. The question would then be whether it is to join the American Union as a single state or as two states. Does this ring a bell for you buffs of American history?

Forcing the Kosovans to remain a province within Serbia is nothing short of slavery.

http://www.jeffwartman.com/2008/02/kosovo-freedom-fighters-still-face.html

hope_and_justice,

I hope JW will take it up. It would be great to have pages with a context of all ongoing hot spots where people can read 101 introduction about the conflicts. For example, I would like to know more about India, but have no time for reasearch.

Let's see if Robert will respond.

LoS

"Forcing the Kosovans to remain a province within Serbia is nothing short of slavery."

Without bumping up hits to your site, care to explain why? I'm willing to argue.

As it stands, you might as well claim that forcing Utah to remain a state within the US is nothing short of slavery.

Or the South. When the US prevented the South, which has actual slavery, from leaving, was that the same as enslaving the South?

Jeff,

Quite the contrary

> As the EU government in Brussels calls more and
> more of the shots for the EU as a whole, national
> identity means less and less. Per Jonah Goldberg,
> the irony of this all encompassing "unity" could
> be the fragmentation of the existing European
> States into dozens of new mini states.


Prediction: Such fragmentations will only occur in the instances that doing so will, as they have in Kosovo, create new Islamist states.

hope_and_justice,

"As it stands, you might as well claim that forcing Utah to remain a state within the US is nothing short of slavery."

Yes, exactly.

"Or the South. When the US prevented the South, which has actual slavery, from leaving, was that the same as enslaving the South?"

Yes. Forcing people to remain in a country when their will to be independent is the definition of slavery. It's all perspective. We wouldn't say the American Revolutionaries were doing anything wrong, because of perspective. But there isn't much difference.

Jeff> Forcing people to remain in a country when
Jeff> their will to be independent is the definition of slavery

Since when does embracing Sharia constitute "independence"? Why is Kosovo any different than Malmo, Sweden or certain parts of Britain's larger cities?

But it's a moot point -- This next World War over totalitarian sharia and Islamist genocides is LONG overdue, and all the weasling, misleading arguments on all the blogs of the internet aren't going to stop it.

Oh, and lest I fail to indict Pres. Clinton's successor in office, yes, Mr. Bush (as was his father before him) has been an assiduous assistant to the Saudi financed campaign of Wahabi expansionism. Beautifully decorated Turkish mosques in Bosnia and Albania and Kosovo are allowed to remain ruined or abandoned, while Saudi money flows in to build dozens, even hundreds of the austere Wahabi style mosques, packed with imported teachers from... Saudi Arabia (after all, when most of your college students major in "Islamic Studies", it's useful to have a place to send them to work). Music and poetry, prime features of Turkish Islam, are no longer to be heard, and the burkah is making an appearance where it's not been worn for centuries. But not to fear. Our leaders know what they are doing. After all, I can remember Mr. Bush, Sr., assuring the Saudis that he would do everything he could to help them get the price of oil back above $18/barrel. I'd say his son has been wildly successful in keeping his father's promises to his paymasters.

This whole discourse is nonsense. Here's some news for you all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/world/europe/22kosovo.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Guess who attacked an American embassy? Burned down offices? Tore down American flags?

Not Iranians. Not Moroccans. Not Sa'udis. Strangely, this attack did not come from Muslims.

They were CHRISTIANS. Serbs who ten years ago tried to cleanse themselves of their Muslim population. Talk about a declaration against genocide...

Jeff,

Albanians have their country - Albania. Kosovo Albanians can live in their motherland, nobody is forcing them to live in the country they don't like. They decided to live in Serbia and are expected to respect our country, as many Serbs living in the USA and are respecting American law and order. And have in mind that 40% of Kosovo Albanians are illegal immigrants.

Shlomo_Michael,

And who defended American embassy?

Serbian police.

Now tell me please, what American troops are doing in my country? Defending Michigan and Texas?

> Guess who attacked an American embassy? Burned down offices?

-- That's an *inevitable* consequence of playing dhimmi for Wahhabism. Face the facts: The US, corrupted by Saudi money, has done more to facilitate the spread of Sharia like a blight around the face of the earth than anything else.

I have an idea: Why not have the US declare sovereignty to every single group of Muslims every as soon as they're a slim majority and demand independence (even as every single one will become part of the Islamic octopus)? How many embassies do you think will burn then?

In Kenya, Al Qaeda blew up our embassy some years ago. If the US decides, at some point, that Kenya ought to be split up to placate its Muslims, then perhaps the Kenyans ought to hit the new place.

As I write, there is rioting in Belgrade over the Kosovo Declaration of Independence.

I hope that the U.S. and the EU extracted some promises from the KLA in return for our support.

Although I suppose it's too much to hope for, consider the following:

Albania, Bosnia, and now Kosovo, appear to have about as close to secular Muslim societies as exists in the world today. Any country, even as ostensibly Islamic as Albania, that's able to produce a Miss Albania delegate to the Miss Universe contest http://www.missuniverse.com/delegates/2006/files/AL.html would appear to offer hope for cultivation of a moderate Islam. To appreciate the significance of this approach one needs only note that there are no Saudi Arabian or Pakistani entries in this contest. There are entries from Indonesia, Turkey and Eqypt, however.

With help and support from the West, could these "new" Muslim countries in the Balkans become the place where an Islamic reformation could be coaxed forth?

As has been pointed out many times on these pages, the violent parts of the Qur'an and Haditha need to be confronted head on and abrogated completely if there is to be any hope for Islam to live peacefully with the rest of humanity. Could this reformation be started in the Balkans?

Saudi Arabia would have to be kept at bay for any reformed version Islam to develop that conforms to modern norms of civilization.

Can anyone comment on the brand of Islam commonly practiced in the Balkans? Is there perhaps a Muslim Martin Luther in the Balkans just waiting to tack his 95 theses on the door of the main majlis in Sarajevo or Tirana? If so, he will require body guards. Are we willing to pay for them?

They are "secular" and "moderate" only because they were surrounded by non-muslims and under communist rule for decades. As soon as you give them their own states, their secularism will deteriorate as seen in Bosnia.

> the violent parts of the Qur'an and Haditha need
> to be confronted head on and abrogated completely

"Confronted"? What's that a euphemism for? Spineless whining?

> if there is to be any hope for Islam to live
> peacefully with the rest of humanity. Could this
> reformation be started in the Balkans?

No. "Islam" is *Submission*. You WILL submit to the rule of the imams, or you will be destroyed. Maybe not today, but eventually your turn will come. So it has been for a thousand year, and so it shall be everywhere Islam gains political power. You cannot "reform" Islam anymore than you can reform Nazism, because the very essence of it is antithetical to moderation.

Miss Albania hasn't yet encountered the squeeze-bottle full of sulfuric acid with her name on it, but plenty of other young ladies who went outside improperly dressed certainly have. In Iran, which used to be the "secular" place you fancy thirty years ago, fathers now just kill their own daughters for that sort of thing.

-- Have you seen "Persepolis" yet? Everybody should.

You are living in The Endarkenment, the de-evolution of the Home Sapien species back into mere Homo Erectus. Rock-headed asininity is ascendant everywhere, and it's abundantly obvious to that dwindling remnant who are paying attention.

There is no talking your way out of this; no "democratic" solution of blabbering and then voting. When you talk while they blow things up, their numbers increase while yours decline -- and that's all they care about. Demographic conquest. When they outnumber, then your precious democracy is THEIRS to control, and Sharia Law swiftly follows (as the people of Indonesia and Malaysia have recently learned).


*sigh*

Where is El Cid when you need him?

"That pretty much sums up the recent unilateral declaration of independence by Albanian Muslims in the Serbian province of Kosovo".

Hitler's policy won. We now have a "Greater Albania". The Albanians were Nazi allies in WW2. The Serbs tied down numerous (maybe 10) Nazi and Muslim Waffen SS divisions and Serb resistance delayed the invasion of Russia. Hitler would have invaded the USSR a month or more earlier (than 6/21/1941) if not for the Serb resistance and the Nazis would have won WW2. In a world of justice, every Albanian in Kosovo should be repatriated back to Albania. It belongs to the Serbs, not to the Albanian-Nazi-ally invaders.

The Russians know that the Slavic Serbs played a big role in the Russian victory over the Nazis. What if Putin puts Russian troops on the ground in Serbia and Russians push the Nazi allied Albanians out of Kosovo. Then what?

Albanians in Kosovo were Nazi allied pigs. If Putin puts Russian troops in to kick them out it would be justice.

In response to the query above, Balkan Islamic practice is heavily influenced by Sufiism, which is kinda "Islam Lite" - they have music, poetry, dancing, etc. That's why the influence of the Saudis in the region is so pernicious. When the Serbs or Croats burned a mosque in Bosnia and hung the local Muslim cleric, the Saudis swept in behind the NATO peacekeepers, and built the locals a new Wahabi mosque and stocked it with an imported Wahabi cleric and maybe even slapped up a nice madrassah next door, chock full of paid for textbooks fully approved by the Saudi Ministry for the Prevention of Vice. The USA and NATO created the vacuum and the Saudis filled it, thereby expanding the Umma bit by bit.

All the Muslims of America move to the state of Delaware, riot and protest(some violently) to secede from the nation. These new migrants then vote to become a separate country within the US territory because now they are the majority in Delaware and they gain acceptance from the international community for their plight to be free from US control.

ThePatriot,

They're already in Michigan and Minnesota. They compelled airports to build special footbaths for them to perform their rituals (can't go to the mosque?) and some want sharia law components to be allowed in their communities. It'll be here sooner than you think.

oldefarte-

The Muslims fart a lot of platitudes and have fooled a lot of people here. A good example is Ed-209 (find my Nazi-Waffen-SS ancestors please) Lakovic. The Serbs tied down numerous Nazi divisions (and Muslim Waffen SS divisions), delayed Operation Barbarossa (the Nazi invasion of Russia) and because of that delay numerous Nazi divisions froze to death on the Eastern front.

I would not blame Putin and the Russians if they put troops in Serbia and kick the Nazi-ally Muslims out of Kosovo. Kosovo belongs to the Slavic Serbs and the Muslim alliance with the Nazis should not be rewarded with a "Greater Albania".

Lazar,
A different opinion than yours on what Milosevic was doing: creating a greater SERBIA. Milosevic saw himself forging a Greater Serbia from the remnants of Yugoslavia. Instead he created a monster which all but devoured Serbia. This is the BBC, but I also remember the stories about greater Serbia before Bosnia. What were Mladic and Karadzic hoping to achieve? It was Milosevic who, in Paris, signed the Dayton Peace Treaty on behalf of the Bosnian Serbs - the very people he had goaded into war. Can you say where this obit is wrong? Thanks. pmk

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/655616.stm

To some, Slobodan Milosevic WAS Serbia. To others, he cynically used Serbia as the battering ram which broke Yugoslavia apart piece by piece in a series of brutal wars.

The young Milosevic learnt his political skills in Belgrade. In the last years of Marshal Tito's Yugoslavia, he was a model Communist.
Tito's death left a vacuum at the apex of power. Milosevic, with his drive and cunning, was meanwhile using Serbia as his ladder to the top.

In April 1987, Milosevic saw his chance and seized it with both hands. As number two in the Serbian Communist Party, he was sent by his boss, Ivan Stambolic, to Serbia's troubled province of Kosovo.

Rallying cry

The Serbs there - then a dwindling 10% of the population - complained of persecution by the majority Albanians. As Milosevic strode out to address an angry crowd of Serbs, he uttered the words which were to change everything.

"No-one shall dare beat you again!" he told them.

His words were a rallying cry for Serbs disillusioned with the old-style communism. Suddenly they had the leader they craved, a man who, from this moment on, used television and the media to secure his place at the head of his people.


Before the year was out, Milosevic had deposed Stambolic, his long-time friend and mentor. Within two years Milosevic was President of Serbia. Kosovo's autonomy - along with that of another province, Vojvodina - was abolished. Serbian nationalism was on the march.
But the crude fervour which drew Serbs together, was repellent to the Slovenes, Croats and other nations of Yugoslavia. Milosevic saw himself forging a Greater Serbia from the remnants of Yugoslavia. Instead he created a monster which all but devoured Serbia.

Secession

In 1991, when Slovenia and Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia, the Serbian-dominated Yugoslav-army went onto the offensive. Here the support of Belgrade, and by implication Milosevic, was crucial.

With Serb paramilitaries backed by the army Croatian towns like Vukovar were pounded into submission.

Bosnia was subjected to the same treatment. When the republic declared its independence, its Serbian minority was already armed and braced to resist.


Bosnia's predominantly Muslim capital, Sarajevo, along with other cities, was surrounded and besieged. The siege lasted for more than three years.
With the horrors of conflict came a new term, "ethnic cleansing". Whole populations were forced from their homes, for some the fate was far worse.

By then, Milosevic had distanced himself from the Bosnian Serb leadership and its military commander, General Mladic, who was present at Srebrenica, where up to 8,000 Muslim men and boys were massacred.

Conflict in Kosovo

Instead, Slobodan Milosevic, the architect of war, had reinvented himself as the Man of Peace. It was Milosevic who, in Paris, signed the Dayton Peace Treaty on behalf of the Bosnian Serbs - the very people he had goaded into war.

With three wars fought and lost for Yugoslavia, Milosevic started planning a fourth, for Kosovo.

Over 10 years, conditions in Kosovo had worsened dramatically. But now, it was the Albanians who were seething against Serbian rule, and demanding the return of their autonomy.


In the summer of 1998, as Albanians mounted mass protests against Serbian rule, police and army reinforcements were sent in to crush the Albanian guerrilla organisation, the Kosovo Liberation Army.
It was the beginning of the end of Milosevic's dream. Weeks of peace talks in France got nowhere, and Nato was called on to carry out its threat to bomb the Serbian military into submission.

The ethnic cleansing which followed, of up to half of the Kosovo Albanian population, was dismissed by Milosevic, in characteristic terms, as people simply fleeing from Nato's bombs.

Indicted

But this time, Belgrade's responsibility was clear, and Slobodan Milosevic became the first serving head of state to be indicted for crimes against humanity. His grip on power was beginning to slip.

In the summer of 2000, he changed the format of the presidential election. In a direct vote, the people of Yugoslavia would decide who would lead them.

Commentators believed at the time that this move would secure Milosevic another term of office. But it was not to be.


MILOSEVIC'S LIFE
Born 1941 in Pozarevac, near Belgrade
Both parents commit suicide
Meets Mira Markovic, later to become his wife
Becomes President of Serbia 1989
Becomes Yugoslav President 1997
Ousted from office 2000

In the presidential election of September 2000, and despite denying the opposition alliance any time on state-controlled radio or television, Slobodan Milosevic was clearly defeated by the opposition leader, Vojislav Kostunica.
When the Federal Election Commission called for a second ballot, Yugoslavia came to a standstill.

A general strike and widespread demonstrations culminated, on 5 October, in opposition supporters capturing Belgrade's parliament building and the headquarters of state television. Milosevic and his wife fled. Thirteen years of rule were ended in 12 breathtaking hours.

Six months later, an armed standoff outside Milosevic's mansion ended with the arrest of the former president. Justice could finally be seen to be done, it was hoped.

Milosevic's trial on charges of genocide and crimes against humanity got under way in earnest in early 2002 at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in The Hague.


By the time of his death, the prosecution had completed its case but the defence was continuing, interrupted by Milosevic's frequent ill-health.

Slobodan Milosevic may be remembered as a nationalist who brought disaster upon his nation and the Balkans. Or as a gambler, playing with people's lives, and using conflict to cement his hold on power. Few will mourn his passing, and many in the Balkans will breathe more easily.


And there I was thinking nothing wouyld beat Metamoro's stupidity when along come Jeff and Shlomo.

Welcome to the JW version of Dumb and Dumber.

Hey J & S, here's your starter for ten. Ready? Good then answer this:

Which nation sided with Albanian muslims, scuppered 3 peace treaties in the Balkans, violated resoultion 1240, committed a war crime by bombing a sovereign state ILLEGALLY, allowed its advertising agencies to spin bullshit against the serbs, had a president bow to Al Qaeda dead, worked hard to commit another war crime with nazis and Iranians by supplying arms to the Bosnian muslims and has aided the global jihad by helping to create a muslim state in the heart of Europe?

Do you need a clue? Let me give you one:

This is a country whose president used the Whitehouse as a brothel and who lied to congress and his own people about his philandering. A country whose cuurent muppet president supports the same people who murdered 3000 innocent amercians on 9/11 and who planned to blow up Fort Dix.

I give you the criminal, dispicable, evil United States of America. A country whose current politicians are using the stars and stripes as toliet tissue.

Making kiss-kiss with Al Qaeda - how nauseating, how dispicable, how shameful. Home of the brave, land of the free - you must be joking.

And before anyone calls me anti-american, the British and the EU are deserving of equal contempt.

You see J & S, the west hasn't just betrayed the Serbs. It has beytrayed those who gave their lives for freedom and every single decent, hard-working, law-abiding one of us by collluding with jihadists all for oil.

Their shame should devour them.

Mike Schneider -

I'm on your side, Mike. But what are the choices? Either we harumph around incessantly about how terrible Islam is while they simply out breed and eventually over run us, or we put on our thinking caps to outsmart them and subvert them from within. Your comments above fall into the first category. Mine into the second.

There is a third option, of course, which I would prefer to avoid, and that is yet another cataclysmic collision between Islam and the West. Historically, these types of conflicts may have served to preserve Western Europe from being inundated by the Islamic tide (e.g., El Cid, Ferdinand and Isabella, Vienna 1683), but on balance things seem to have turned out rather better for Islam than for either the Jews or the Christian West, wouldn't you say? ALL of the pre-Islamic Christian Middle East, Northern Africa, and much of the Balkans were lost to Islam.

So, let's be smart about how we respond to the latest clash with Islam. Up to now, we have not been smart, but rather stupid, naive and childlike in our approach. It doesn't have to be this way. If there's one thing the West excels at it is problem solving - once it has been taken out of the hands of the ideologues.

Islam is a problem. So let's treat is as such and solve the problem by attacking it at its roots. Although confronting and challenging its ideological/theological foundations would part of this approach, this by itself won't be enough. A cultural alternative needs to be developed to take its place. Since it's unlikely that 1 billion Muslims are going to convert to any of the other more peaceful religions, it would seem a more efficacious approach would be to simply neutralize those odious aspects of Islam that make it so objectionable.

There are people out there who seem to recognize that any reform of Islam has to come from within, that to be effective it will have to bear an Islamic face - although there has been some difficulty in articulating an actual course of action that would lead to such reform. Let Islam keep the outward forms of the faith, if it must, but normalize its essence such that it becomes a positive force in society instead of a negative force.

Force open the doors to ijtihad, again, to free inquiry, to respect for individual freedom of conscience. It happened once before. It could happen again.

Pmk,

There is not need to copy texts, just leave a link and I will read. Let me show you just a few important points, because I don't have enough time to dig into details.

For example, BBC article states:

"In 1991, when Slovenia and Croatia seceded from Yugoslavia, the Serbian-dominated Yugoslav-army went onto the offensive."

This is not true. Yugoslav army, 4th European armed force, withdrew from Slovenia without fight. It would take no more than 2h to regain federal control in Slovenia if the army wanted to.

In Croatia, at the beginning Army had "peace keeping" mission. They were keeping Croats and Serbs from killing each other. But because Croats wanted to control the territory they started attacking federal army and the army stroke back. Again, if Army wanted to regain control in Croatia and overthrow their government, it would be done in a few days.

Have in mind that on the one side was 4th European force and on the other mob of peasants armed with hunting guns. What would "Yugoslav-army offensive" look like? It is nonsense to think separatists would resist more than a few days. And I wish the army intervened, because many lives would be saved. Some people would be unhappy because they will not have their "(all but) independent states", but many other who are now dead would be alive.

Think about that and you will see that western media starts from completely false premises when writing about the former Yugoslavia. And don't ask me why...

Once again, I recommend very good documentary "Yugoslavia - The Avoidable War":

1. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571

2. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6371060303901674397

Rule, "Britannia's Lion". My point, too. And don't get me started on Chechnya and the EU's/UK's/USA's (take your pick): (1) Self-destructive and delusional response to Russia's efforts; or (2) Self-destructive and hypocritical response to Russia's efforts. Sure, sure, Putin's a thug, but even thugs can be right about certain things and allowing Chechens to run around invading their neighbors (or blowing up school children) is probably not a "good thing".

As to "Eastview's" suggestions, I must say that I kinda agree with him - we DO need to reach out to those Muslims who are not deeply ensconced in the medievalist mindset of the Middle East and to use them as a wedge to civilize the Umma. Ms. Albania is certainly a start. Umm, yeah, good start, I'd say... I've long said that Coca-Cola, rock and roll, and blue jeans did as much as "Star Wars" to break the Soviet Union. Let's airdrop "Cosmo" and "Glamour" magazines on Riyadh and Tehran (we could even include "past its shelf life" cosmetic packages, too) so that the silent half of Islam can see what they are being denied. Internet porn laced with subliminal messages (such as "Why doesn't Bin Laden blow HIMSELF up instead of his followers?") might be just the ticket. AND we could even point to "good Muslims" in Albania who don't think that Allah is offended by the sight of a woman in a bikini. Why do you think the Saudis are so anxious to export their brand of Islam to the newly liberated folks in Kosovo? My God, what if you actually COULD be a Muslim and not be condemned to "party like it's 699"? Worth a try.

Thanks, oldefart, for the comment about Sufism in the Balkans. This is a variant of Sunni Islam that does, indeed, appear to be less violent than the conservative Wahabbi strain. Within the Shia tradition, the Baha'is would seem to provide a similarly reasonable palatable alternative. Of course, both of these traditions are considered heretical by orthodox Sunni and Shi'a Islam.

So, why not throw our support to either of these two branches of Islam within the Islamic states of the Balkans, all within the context of multiculturalism, of course? These guys have the conceptual tools to confront conservative Islam on its own terms using the appropriate Qur'anic justifications. In other words, enlist the support of elements within Islam that subscribe to the same modern concepts as the West. These do exist. Of course, this approach won't work if, at the same time, we insist on using the occasion to proselytize on behalf of any other particular religion that don't really have anything to do with the larger problem (e.g., questions relating to some of the finer points of Christianity like the Trinity, etc.)

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:Qh2_LK1aK7AJ:www.snd-us.com/history/savic_01.htm+greater+albania,+hitler&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

If the Serbs ask for Russian help to kick out the Albanians from Kosovo and the Russians do that Putin will be the one who is morally and legally right.

Eastview,

Your solution seems to be waiting around for a reform movement with and Islamic face, or maybe gently encouraging such a movement.

Problem with this solution: I'll end up forced to wear a burqa before that happens that way.

That's not acceptable.

One possible better plan:

1. Contain Islam by limiting immigration, refusing to funnel funds into its lands (aid and oil money and military adventures), and by supporting border lands historically under attack. (Continue aid only if government grant full religion freedoms to citizens. That includes no publicly supported anti-semitism, and real police protection for apostates. Let them crack down on political movements like Ikhwan as much as they like.)

2. Target (domestic and foreign) Muslim populations for evangelism. Private organizations can do this, possibly with government coordination for security reasons, but with minimal government support. There is also good reason to do this in a governmental capacity on national security grounds. In principle, if not in sentiment, it is just like fighting Communist ideology.

3. Allow non-Muslim immigrants from Muslim lands as refuges. This will create an incentive to change religion, and reduce the fear of death hanging over the heads of potential apostates. At the same time, cut off all Muslim immigration on the grounds that the "religion" is a political ideology, like Communism.

4. Monitor mosques already in the West, as is now often done, for signs of terrorism.

We aren't doing most of this. Instead ordinary yokels and, our leaders alike are trying to shut up the people who want this, and are holding out this carrot of "maybe they'll reform on their own!", and backing it up with the nonsense that there's nothing else we can do.


Build nuclear power plants. Enough to power homes and schools and hospitals with them exclusively; enough to close down the fossil plants.
Stop the Jizya.
Tax oil and traditional cars, at extremely high levels, for national security reasons.
Subsidize biodiesel.
Limit immigration.
Pull US troops out of Serbia.

We could do more than wait, and things quite in line with our core principles to boot. None of this is anywhere near the realm of what we did to the Japanese-Americans here in WWII, and it doesn't have to be.

The problem is most of us are so baffled or corrupt that we quite possibly won't do any of this.

Hope_and_Justice: Can't say I disagree with you, either, then again, I don't perceive that your position and Eastview's are mutually exclusive. Containment, confrontation, control - ABSOLUTELY. BUT, if that is ALL you do, then you're left with a festering pot of hardcore Islamism which will eventually explode and spill forth, like it did in the 7th and 8th Centuries and again in the 14th and 15th C. Proselyzation by other religions is fine, but it will only go so far, so using less extreme forms of Islam to crack open the Jihadist State also has a place. Heck, the Saudis and the Iranians and the Taliban know that - why do you think they are so adamant about enforcing their norms at home and exporting them to other, less stringent Muslim lands? Last time I checked, altho' Communism collapsed in Russia it's still the prevailing doctrine in China, yet today's China is not the same thing as Mao's "Cultural Revolution" China. Spend a little time in Iran and you'll realize that a whole lot of folks even in that benighted country would welcome a less extreme and confrontational form of Islam than the one imposed by the Mullahs but if the ONLY option is "cease to be Muslim", well, that ain't gonna happen. How about "you can still be a Muslim and wear lipstick and a bikini (and vote)"?

BUT I absolutely agree that it is idiotic to have over 25,000 American troops in Bosnia protecting Muslims (and abetting Saudi proselyzation) when we can't get our German allies to up their 300 man commitment to Afghanistan. I remember the EU telling the USA, at the start of the Yugoslavian crisis, that "this is the NEW EUROPE and this is a EUROPEAN issue which will have a EUROPEAN solution so butt out". 'Course, they botched it and the next thing we heard was how the USA was "shirking its international duty" by not assisting Europe's efforts. So, leave this mess to the Euros and let's put those 25K troops in Afghanistan where they can do some good in the war against Islamist fanaticism.

> I'm on your side, Mike. But what are the choices?
> Either we harumph around incessantly about how
> terrible Islam is while they simply out breed and
> eventually over run us, or we....

The first thing you do is stop using the word "we", because "we" includes all those other people who are sitting around doing nothing.

I'm just telling you what's going to happen based on what to me clearly obvious trends.

> put on our thinking caps to outsmart them and
> subvert them from within. Your comments above fall
> into the first category. Mine into the second.

Do they now? "We" shall see....

> There is a third option, of course, which I
> would prefer to avoid, and that is yet another
> cataclysmic collision between Islam and the West

Yes: You do prefer to avoid it, and that desire to flinch away from The Daily Horror Show is what allows Islam to pursue the "third option" on a piece-meal, day-by-day basis in dozens of nations around the world.

> Historically, these types of conflicts may have
> served to preserve Western Europe from being
> inundated by the Islamic tide....

IOW, the "third way", unlike any contemporary policy of dealing with Islamic totalitarianism, has a track-record of success.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y19/mike18xx/dealing_with_muslims-2.jpg

> balance things seem to have turned out rather
> better for Islam than for either the Jews or the
> Christian West, wouldn't you say? ALL of the
> pre-Islamic Christian Middle East, Northern
> Africa, and much of the Balkans were lost to Islam.

IOW, Islam advances at the point of a sword when your "third way" is eschewed.

> So, let's be smart about how we respond to the
> latest clash with Islam. Up to now, we have not
> been smart, but rather stupid, naive and
> childlike in our approach.

Oh, I agree.

> It doesn't have to be this way. If there's one
> thing the West excels at it is problem solving...

...you write, just after documenting its abject failures. (Why didn't this occur to you while writing your comment?)

> once it has been taken out of the hands of the ideologues.

That's nice. Go ahead and "take it out of their hands". March right up to the nearest Janjaweed and say, "I'm taking it out of your hands!" (referring to his Kalashnikov). Good luck.

> Islam is a problem. So let's treat is as such
> and solve the problem by attacking it at its
> roots. Although confronting and challenging its
> ideological/theological foundations would part
> of this approach, this by itself won't be
> enough. A cultural alternative needs to be
> developed to take its place.

The "cultural alternative" to totalitarianism is LIBERTY. As in, "liberated from totalitarianism".

-- This is not hard stuff to understand.

> Since it's unlikely that 1 billion Muslims are
> going to convert to any of the other more
> peaceful religions, it would seem a more
> efficacious approach would be to simply
> neutralize those odious aspects of Islam that
> make it so objectionable.

The "odious aspects of Islam that make it so objectionable" are the totalitarians enforcing Sharia Law...but I get the impression that your "simply neutralize" didn't refer to them.

> There are people out there who seem to recognize
> that any reform of Islam has to come from within,
> that to be effective it will have to bear an Islamic
> face

That's like saying that any reform of Nazism has to come from within, and that to be effective it will have to still carry the Hitler face, because, well, he's The Prophet (pbuh).

There are two kinds of Muslims: The 5% that are psychopathic monsters embracing a philosophy which excuses rape, murder and theft, and the other 95% who would, if you please, rather not be killed by the other 5% today.

> although there has been some difficulty
> in articulating an actual course of action that
> would lead to such reform. Let Islam keep the
> outward forms of the faith, if it must, but
> normalize its essence such that it becomes a
> positive force instead of a negative force.

Anything but "kill the evil ones plotting genocides and slave-tyrannies."

> Force open the doors to ijtihad, again, to free
> inquiry, to respect for individual freedom of
> conscience. It happened once before. It could
> happen again.

"Force"? Please don't use that word unless you really mean it. It's disingenuous.

-- Dealing with Islam shouldn't be any harder than the Spanish dealt with the Aztec death-cults or the British handled the Thugs: Identify the priests promoting slaughter, and kill the crap out of them. Wherever they are.

Thanks, Frank, for the link http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:Qh2_LK1aK7AJ:www.snd-us.com/history/savic_01.htm+greater+albania,+hitler&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us.

It's too bad Serbs weren't more media savvy in putting forth their case in the 1990s. The history contained in the link above is pretty much unknown in the West, completely so in most of the U.S. You have to remember, the historical memory of the U.S. is fairly short, unlike in Europe. This needs to be taken into account when fashioning an appeal to the U.S. Americans aren't stupid, but like all people everywhere we're constrained by our own history and particular circumstances. If an effective media campaign had been launched to educate us about the history of the Balkans, you might have been surprised at the positive response from the man in the street. As it was, the view from here of the Balkan wars was dictated by the news outlets dominated by the Left, and the Clinton administration was pretty much unchallenged to pursue its cockeyed and misplaced agenda that resulted in the current state of affairs.

The Internet didn't exist during the 1990s, but it does now. News is no longer dictated by the MSM (main stream media) the way it used to be. This is a new force that can be used to advantage for those able to master it. The blogosphere, in particular, has had an important impact on the American presidential campaign currently underway. This effect has largely been due to thousands of sites exactly like this one, which provide information that falls outside the powers of the state to control. A list of some of the more influential ones are contained on the bar to the left of this web page.

The Islamists realized the potential power of the Internet almost from its earliest appearance. Their techniques are often clumsy and overly burdened with excess zealotry, however, and this compromises their overall effectiveness in the West. However, videos of mobs of jihadists waving swords and shooting guns into the air while screaming "Allahu Akhbar" do seem to resonate with their intended audience.

The point? It's not enough to only be right. And it's not always the case that the truth will prevail in the end. Truth sometimes gets destroyed by evil forces in the world, perhaps to be lost forever. For every Herodotus or Euclid whose works managed to survive the Muslim onslaught in the 7th-11th centuries AD (mostly because of translations by Jews and Christian Syriacs), how many works by others were lost that we'll never know about? From a genetic perspective, we're no smarter in the West than the desert Arabs, but we have a lot more practice in large scale organization and practical problem solving. So, let's stop our sloganeering for a bit, put on our thinking caps and get to work.

As noted by "truth_and_justice" above, there are certain immediate steps that can be taken to blunt the effects of creeping Islamization. These are all good suggestions, and I agree with every one of the them. There's a lot of material on the web devoted to discussing this problem and it is steadily increasing. However, most of it is devoted to relatively short term issues. While addressing them is becoming somewhat urgent, there is the more fundamental and longer term problem of how to stop Islam once and for all. I suggested above that one way might be to enlist the help of groups like the Baha'is. God knows, they could use some relief from persecution. It is within the context of the longer term that we also need to be smart. This will undoubtedly be a multigeneration effort, but we need to start somewhere and we don't have all the time in the world.

Mike Schneider:

I appreciate the underlying sentiments behind your remarks, Mike, but how would you suggest the longer term problem be approached? The geopolitical realities are such that it is unlikely your proposed solution, which seems to suggest some form of obliterating Islam by force, in a manner you don't specify, could be undertaken without simultaneously taking out a substantial part of the world with it.

Care to clarify?

> I appreciate the underlying sentiments behind your
> remarks, Mike, but how would you suggest the
> longer term problem be approached? The
> geopolitical realities are such that it is
> unlikely your proposed solution, which seems to
> suggest some form of obliterating Islam by force,
> in a manner you don't specify, could be undertaken...

You'll live to see it.

> without simultaneously taking out a substantial
> part of the world with it.

As far as I am concerned, anyplace ruled by Sharia has already been "taken out". They don't call these places "hell-holes" without reason.

> Care to clarify?

Certainly:

Nothing can stop it. Islam will commit genocide after genocide in the third-world while the West does nothing. Inevitably, the West's bankrupt welfare-states will crumble. Fanatics will run rampant throughout Europe (where they crumble first) and elsewhere. There will be war, because the Islamists will *force* war -- "Dar al Harb". One side or the other will win; and I have told you what will be necessary to win.

Any questions?

Mike Schneider:

My apologies Mike, I just reread your post and see that you do propose a solution. However, how many mullahs and ayatollahs do you suppose there are in the world that would need to be taken care of in this fashion? Even if it's only a small fraction of the total consisting of the leadership, which would certainly cause a ripple within the world of Islam, this doesn't strike me as being a practical approach. They would simply reconstitute themselves, and after some years the same problem would come up again.

For every action you undertake you have to ask, then what? It is this lapse in judgment, of not asking the elementary question "then what" after we rolled into Baghdad, that resulted in our failure to anticipate that the Baathists would mount the effective resistance they did.

So, after you eliminate the mullahs of the world, "then what?"

It is a fact that US foreign policy is long term. Too long for the President and his party's term in office; therefore relegating him to but a spokesman in these matters. This was a long time in the making and is wonderful to watch. Clinton's bombing and the subsequent NATO occupation. His building strong relations with Romania and their acceptance into NATO. In the spring of 2006 the independence of Montenegro and its quick recognition. Also in 2006, the Defense Cooperation Agreement between the U.S. and Bulgaria. And now Kosovo. Watch how quickly they they are assimilated into NATO and the UN. How soon will it take for the USAF to set up a base and install missile systems. Soon thereafter you'll see Exxon and BP building transfer stations on the Mediterranean and Black Seas. Of course this will supplement the gas flowing through Afghanistan and the oil being pumped out of Iraq. How long after will the trade deficit with China last? How long will Russia be able to gouge Europe? It's called global domination, the New World Order. It's absolutely brilliant!

Mike Schneider:

Our posts/responses are becoming interleaved.

What you described in your post of 9:00 PM is exactly the long term problem that has to be solved. In the end it may well turn out, as you suggest, that the West will have to resort to force if all else fails. I still wonder if other approaches that haven't yet been tried might work. It's true that nothing short of force has worked in the historical past. Yet, before 1969 no one had landed on the moon, either, an accomplishment that many pooh-poohed before it actually happened. (And don't get me started on what Islamic "science" has to say about endeavors like this.)

In any case,I appreciate the exchange. If there's anything that might be able to move our PC-addled politicians, it is the combined effects of millions of conversations just like this by people who are alarmed by what we see happening before our eyes.

Thanks again.

"In response to the query above, Balkan Islamic practice is heavily influenced by Sufiism, which is kinda "Islam Lite" - they have music, poetry, dancing, etc."

It isn't Islam light. Its approch to divinity and reason is that endorsed by al-Ghazali, and it coexists with Sunnism and Shiism. You can be both Sunni and Sufi, for example.

There's nothing in Sufism repudating the violence in the Koran or Hadith. Many in Egypt -- you know, that place where Christians are persecuted, and where so many of the 9/11 hijackers came from -- are Sufi.

There might be shades in which it is more philosophically deep or less dangerous to the arts and to expression, but as far as preserving our culture and political liberties go, it isn't Islam lite and it doesn't provide the kind of protection from ideological extremism that we need.

Lazar's explanaion makes much more sense than this Sufism explanation. To repeat his:

"They are "secular" and "moderate" only because they were surrounded by non-muslims and under communist rule for decades. As soon as you give them their own states, their secularism will deteriorate as seen in Bosnia."

Mick_n_NYC 9:15 PM.

Very nice, Mike. I, too, expect to see NATO bases in Romania, Bulgaria and Albania soon, perhaps also Kosovo. The question is, how will Russia respond to the establishment of forward operating bases essentially along its perimeter? For them, the problem of Kosovo secession from Serbia falls within this larger problem of encirclement.

I'm guessing you probably also noticed that, in the television coverage of the invasion of Afghanistan in late 2001, there was always something missing on the maps. The names of every one of the Soviet Islamic republics were on the maps, in the countries just above Afghanistan, except one - Turkestan. One of the reasons the invasion was undertaken was to ensure the security of the gas piplines Exxon and BP were planning to run from Turkestan along Western Afghanistan to the Persian Gulf. Yet, you never heard any mention of this in any of the coverage, and I always considered omission of Turkestan from the maps was simply to avoid any unwanted attention.

It's just this kind of long term strategic plan we need to develop for Islam.

Is anyone aware of this kind of strategic plan for dealing with radical Islam in the future? (Please don't mention the neocons' "Project for a New American Century.")

oldfarte,

I agree that promoting, or letting develop, a less extreme version of Islam is a good thing. But this is a much more radical and unlikely project than I think most people admit. Really, in the long term I think conversion to other religions and atheism will be the bulk of the fallout of modern Muslim leaders' decision to violently challenge the West.

Still, in a context where a religion has to compete, I think it is much more likely you'll see alternatives develop.

The costraints, in my proposal above, on aid to Muslim governments, combined with the encouragment of conversion, I believe would work to put pressure on and make room for ordinary Muslims to articulate a less violent and political version of their religion.

Still, most likely path is as Mike says:

"Islam will commit genocide after genocide in the third-world while the West does nothing. Inevitably, the West's bankrupt welfare-states will crumble. Fanatics will run rampant throughout Europe (where they crumble first) and elsewhere. There will be war, because the Islamists will *force* war -- "Dar al Harb"."

Oil is big in this, in terms of why the West will do nothing until the last minute. Ideology is even bigger.

On a positive note, I do think as Europe starts having crazier and crazier problems, the US will slowly begin to react more and more sanely. And once that happens, sanity, resources, technology, and the will to live are on our side.


And Mike is right about Persepolis! I can't believe everyone hasn't seen it at least once! Go see it this weekend, everyone!

Eastview-

One thing leads to another. I've never been interested at what happens in the Balkans, but the issue of Islam has led to reading on that. From what I see re Kosovo: Hitler, Muhammad and the Evil One must be laughing at this one.

The world seems to be moving into an era of tribalism. Only the elites don't see it. (This can get ugly. For example, what happens if Russians in the Ukraine start demanding a separate state?) The tribes are on the move and force is what is right.

I think nations, tribes, groups generally, write in large letters the really amoral nature of humans. The larger entities are a macrocosm of human nature. Humans are part of nature and nature is war, though we hide our predatory nature with self-deceiving rationalizations (Islam, e.g.).

If Almighty God asked me for advice, I would say: "I don't know. Maybe let a meteor hit earth, God. Be 'humane'".

> However, how many mullahs and ayatollahs do you
> suppose there are in the world that would need
> to be taken care of in this fashion?

All the ones that quality.

> Even if
> it's only a small fraction of the total
> consisting of the leadership, which would
> certainly cause a ripple within the world of
> Islam,

Too bad.

> this doesn't strike me as being a practical approach.

It's a very practical approach if your goal is to kill evil men before they enslave billions and slaughter millions.

> So, after you eliminate the mullahs of the world, "then what?"

1. Dump that stupid black rock into the Indian Ocean.

2. Miller Time.

> The costraints, in my proposal above, on aid to Muslim
> governments, combined with the encouragment of conversion,
> I believe would work to put pressure on and make room
> for ordinary Muslims to articulate a less violent
> and political version of their religion.


There's no way in hell this could possibly have the results desired -- and robbing taxpayers to "aid Muslim governments" is nothing less than an act of treason and aiding and abetting tyranny.

Mike Schneider:

I like your style Mike. "Miller time" made me laugh.

In Frank's post at 9:46 PM he said

"Really, in the long term I think conversion to other religions and atheism will be the bulk of the fallout of modern Muslim leaders' decision to violently challenge the West."

One can always hope. But do you see that happening anywhere in the world today to a significant degree? Indeed, the trend seems to be in the opposite direction.

I think the single most effective action that could be taken today would be to implement the many proposals that have been made to eliminate Saudi influence in the world. Put into place conflict of interest laws to halt their bribing of politicians, past or present, instigate legal proceedings to track the flow of Saudi money into the country to spread Wahabbism, identify any charity that violates our laws and bring criminal charges against any of the administrators of these programs.

To the degree that we must interact with the Saudis at all, insist on reciprocity - for every mosque that's built in the U.S., a non-Islamic religious church/synagogue/temple be permitted within the Kingdom at a location that yields approximate exposure to the locals. For every desecration or destruction of one of the structures that occurs, a mosque gets closed down or demolished here. And for every Christian/Jewish/Buddhist persecuted for freely exercising their religion in Saudi Arabia, a mullah here gets sent packing.

Don't know how any of this could be effectuated legally, but surely there must be some creative legal minds who could make it happen. One can dream.

Oh, and I forgot mention. Halt or drastically throttle back the immigration (Europe especially) for as long as it takes to allow the civil instability that has developed because of the too fast influx of foreigners to stabilize. Establish a quota system based on the rate at which new comers adapt to and accept the customs of their new cultures. No assimilation would translate into zero rate for new immigrants from those cultures who refuse to assimilate.

This would all require establishing a values-based metric based on cultural factors. It would be tough and would be resisted by the multiculturalists for whom all cultures are the same, but the effort needs to be undertaken nevertheless.

Lazar,
I didn't mean to post such a huge article. My mistake.

I tried to send you other links that spoke of the Greater Serbia itinerary long before 1991. They say the goal was to get all Serbs living under one leadership, in one country. It may have been called different things, but it amounted to the same thing.

Here are just two:

The role of Serbia's political intellectuals:

http://croatianhistory.net/etf/prim2.html

Answers about Greater Serbia

http://www.answers.com/topic/greater-serbia

Eastview: quickly skimming through comments, I did not notice your wondering about Sufism and the Baha'i being picked up by anyone else.

Permit me to point this out. Christianity is not Judaism. Why? Because neither Christians nor Jews would agree that it is. Hence, it is not. Is Mormonism Christian? One side says it is, the other vehemently denies it. Harder to determine either way, but not impossible.

In the case of the Baha'i, though, neither Baha'is nor Muslims would ever claim they were Muslim. In fact, tell a Baha'i he's Muslim (or Islamic) and he'll probably punch you in the face.

PMK,

No problem. I am very busy right now, but will try to give you some hints and please research details if you are interested in this topic.

First, Serbs had a chance to create "Greater Serbia" in 1918. after WWI when they liberated all south-Slavic people. But instead, Serbian king created "Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians", later renamed "Yugoslavia". Serbs gave 2,500,000 lives to create and defend this multicultural and multinational country in WWI and WWII. Croatian site is very unfair by stating that "chetniks committed genocide against Croats and Muslims" having in mind that Croats and Muslims were Nazis who killed 1,000,000 Serbs in concentration camps like Jasenovac. Some chetniks indeed committed well documented war crimes, but nothing comparable to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac

After WWII, Serbs were treated as "dangerous" by communist dictator Josip Broz Tito (half-Croatian, half-Slovenian). His official policy was "weak Serbia = strong Yugoslavia" and that was forced by all means. First, he forbidden the royal family to return to the country. Then, he expelled and killed all Serbian elite, businessmen and intellectuals. He created two "autonomous provinces" (Vojvodina and Kosovo i Metohija) and later gave them very wide autonomy leaving Serbia with less power than her own provinces. 500,000 Serbs who were expelled by Kosovo Albanian Nazis (they had their SS division "Skenderbeg") were forbidden to return to their homes. Serbian general Dragoljub Mihailovic who with his troops saved 500 American pilots (and awarded with "Legion of Merit" by American president Truman for that heroic act) was executed as a "traitor". List is too long for this post...

After Tito's death, Serbian intellectuals issued a warning known as "SANU memorandum" which only stated the obvious - that Serbia and Serbs are the victims of country they build with their own blood. They warned about genocide Albanians are commiting against Serbs in Kosovo and many other dangers at the time, which proved to be true. There is nothing about "Greater Serbia" there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SANU_Memorandum

And yes, all Serbs actually lived in one country - Yugoslavia - and they wanted to live together with other nations in that country for which they sacrificed so much. Serbia never had intention to create pure ethnic state. It is exactly what others did or want to do. Only in last wars, Croatia expelled or killed 500,000 Serbs, Kosovo Albanians expelled or killed 300,000, in Bosnia Serbs had in private property 70% of the land (because they were mainly farmers) and now Republika Srpska is less than 50% of territory...

gkong3: You're right, of course. I didn't mean to suggest they are, merely trying to make a point.

The Baha'is do, though, have strong roots in Shiism, but it is infinitely more tolerant, as well as having apparently jettisoned the violence of main stream Islam.

On another, but somewhat related topic. In an earlier post on this thread I gave a link to pictures of the Miss Albania entry to the Miss Universe 2006 pageant (she didn't win). Not exactly your typical burqa-drapped creature we have come to asociate with places like Afghanistan.

For more pictures that make this point even better check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iocdrJD7LSs&feature=related

Not a hijab or burqa or niqab here, either.

Now, I realize these women aren't your typical stay-at-home moms in Albania (the same as would be the case here), but I was nevertheless surprised. My image of Albania was of dreary villages, women in head scarves being carried in horse-drawn carts driven by cigarette smoking men needing a shave, in the rain. Memo to self: must learn not to generalize or deal in stereotypes.

I wonder how many, if any, of these women are muslim, of whatever variant exists in Albania. Anyone know about this?

Outstanding analysis, James George Jatras.

Johnothan:"Although I am American, I am completely anti-American and anti-Nato regarding the Kosovo situation."

I agree with that, though I'm not American. If NATO had've called it a day, the day after the Warsaw Pact folded, NATO would've gone into history as perhaps the most successful organisation/alliance in modern history. And now it's doing the Wahabbi's bidding in Europe.

How the mighty fall.

poetcomic1:"America's recognition of Kosovo has been stage managed, orchestrated and brought to fruition by Bush's Saudi masters. Kosovo itself with its vandalized pissed-on churches and incongruously grandiose Wahabi mosques built with OUR oil money is a proud little monument to heroin, hate and sex slavery and the capstone to Bush's career. It's a doozy of a capstone."

Couldn't have put it better myself. Just to add that Bush is bankrupting the US, both financially and morally.

CTYankee:"The MSM is already entertaining the idea of "Greater Albania". Why was the idea of "Greater Serbia" treated by NATO as a fascist plot, when greater Albania can be considered liberation? I don't blame Serbia for demanding the secession of the Bosnia Serbs."

Yep. And, don't forget that many minorities fought very bravely for so called "Greater Serbia".

Abdic's secular forces in Bihac, for instance.
In Kosovo, every minoriy supported the Serbs including many of the Catholic ethnic Albanians. Some "fascist" entity.

Jeff wartman:"Forcing the Kosovans to remain a province within Serbia is nothing short of slavery."

Snigger

and "Yes. Forcing people to remain in a country when their will to be independent is the definition of slavery."

WOW!!!! So if, say, Dearborn in the middle of the US wants to become independent or join up with KSA they should be allowed! And if the US doesn't allow it the US would be no different than slave owners?

Snigger

Yup, you sure didn't forget to put your thinking cap on. Good stuff.

PMK. That article you spammed was from the BBC. Understand? The BBC.

What next? An article on geography from the "Flat Earth Society"?

MikeNYC:"It's called global domination, the New World Order. It's absolutely brilliant!

So "World Domination" really means
a quagmire in Iraq and Afghanistan
b stupendously huge national debt
c unchecked immigration
d 1,000's of dead servicemen. 10's of 1,000s of seriously injured servicemen.
e plummeting dollar.
f recession.
Amazing. You learn something new every day. Thanks for the lesson, Mike.

P.S. Al Qaeda, you know them, they did some landscaping to your city circa Autumn, 01, were armed by your so called "New Order" in Bosnia So you thought 9 11 was quote "absolutely brilliant!"unquote too did you, or only when it happens to people outside the US.

oldefarte"I remember the EU telling the USA, at the start of the Yugoslavian crisis, that "this is the NEW EUROPE and this is a EUROPEAN issue which will have a EUROPEAN solution so butt out""

You put that in quotation marks. Got a link, cos I bet the EC didn't, word for word, say that. Don't forget that it was actually the US which got Izetbegovich to take his name away from the Lisbon Agreement, thereby starting the civil war, so you're also wrong to state that the US wasn't involved at the beginning. Granted, Germany, Austria and the Vatican bear huge responsibility for the premature recognition of Croatia.

PMK. First you spam a hidieously awful Beeb article about Slobo, then you give a Croat webpage about Serb intellectuals. You're on a roll, lad, really you are.

BTW. On that Croat webpage it does at least have a large essay about the very warm relations between SERBIA and ISRAEL, which makes some good points.

Read it and weep Serbophobes.

Mick_n_NYC 9:15 PM:

More on strategic geopolitics.

If you look at a world map pre-1948, you see an unbroken chain of Islamic-dominated governments stretching more or less all the way from Morocco to India.

But the establishment of Israel in 1948 created a small chink in that chain and allowed for the insertion of Crusader forces at one of the most strategically valuable points in this chain. With the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, every other link in the chain from Israel and Pakistan has now also knocked out, so that Crusader forces control the skies and shipping lanes of the entire region, with regional operating bases periodically located within easy air range to enforce their continued presence. I don't know if thinking along these lines played any role in strategic planning, but one is certainly struck by the symmetry of the results.

I use the term "Crusader forces" tongue in cheek. This is, of course, the term our adversaries use for us. It's an archaic term that has little relevance to the world today except within the fevered minds of those who are still locked into a Medieval mindset. As long as they continue to use this ridiculous and laughable term, it indicates an ongoing inability to think rationally. That is good for us.

Albania was for decades under Communism officially the world s only atheistic regime with militant atheistic indoctrination,ban on every sermon or religious activity and severe punishment of every sign of religion.
Religions were permitted 15 years ago and all of them tried to reactivate cultural religious memories of the past.In such an environment there is no religious fanatism yet,as no one can pass overnight from atheism to fundamentalism.Traditionally there are 70% Muslims,15% Othodox Christians including the Greek minority and 15% Catholics.
A competition of religions has started with money from Saudi Arabia for mosques,Greece for Orthodox churches and Vatican for the Catholics.The state traditionally suspects more the Orthodox but it seems that the present Archbishop Anastasios Giannoulatos (a Greek) has given assurances that he will not promote any Greek agenda but a purely Albanian Orthodox and there is no persecution.
Of course Greece is nearer but it has not the money of the Saudis.The mosques are far more numerous but the population is not radical yet.
The future is unknown.
US government may think that it can use Balkan Muslims as a model but they do not know that Middle Eastern Muslims never considered these people as really faithful and they will never imitate them but they will try to change them.

Tribalism update from Iraq...Turkey vs Kurds....

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8UVAKHO0&show_article=1


I wonder what would happen if the Serbs asked for Russian troops against this "Greater Albania" called Kosovo. If Putin ordered Russian troops-tanks-etc airlifted into Serbia-my hunch is that the world would back-down re "Greater Albania". It probably will not happen. But Putin might gamble.

This guy Hitler is not dead and "Greater Albania" is part of his work. As Faulkner said, "The past is never really past".

Sudetenland-2008....


In many ways this Kosovo rip-off is the Munich of 2008. In 1938 the British and French turned over the Sudetenland to Nazi Germany and the Chechs had no voice in the matter. The Serbs are in the same situation 70 years later. This is a Munich "peace in our time" agreement with Bush in the role of Neville Chamberlain.

Serbia is surrounded by now NATO countries Bulgaria and Rumania who even if they do not like Kosovo independence will not permit airlift of Russian troops via their air space.
The Russian danger comes from 11 ships with the "Admiral Kuznechov" armed with nuclear weapons who are a few miles from Greek and Albanian shores.
But I do not think Russia will try a military option.They will opt for a legal battle in UN and Hague that will destroy every pretention that something like International Law exists.

athenian-

I think that the Russians and Serbians should argue that this is a Munich-style agreement. The British and French turned the Sudetenland over to Nazi Germany in 1938 in order to avoid continued "ethnic conflict". The Albanians in Kosovo are to the Serbs as the Germans were to the Chechs. In 1938 the Chechs had no say in the matter. Hitler laughed at Chamberlain behind his back for being taken in by the "oppressed minority" routine.

The Munich agreement is considered one of the great crimes of history because it ruthlessly interfered with the national sovereignty of the Chechs. The Sudetenland was ripped from them in the manner that Kosovo is being ripped from the Serbs. (After WW2 the Germans there were required to get out of the Sudetenland.) Kosovo is the Sudetenland of 2008. Maybe someday the Albanians will be required to get out of the Kosovo-Sudetenland.

They will opt for a legal battle in UN and Hague that will destroy every pretention that something like International Law exists.

Posted by: athenian at February 22, 2008 7:23 AM

The Munich agreement of 1938 similarly "destroy(ed) every pretention that something like International Law exists".


Mike Schneider,

"There are two kinds of Muslims: The 5% that are psychopathic monsters embracing a philosophy which excuses rape, murder and theft, and the other 95% who would, if you please, rather not be killed by the other 5% today."

Your going to have prove these percentages to me. How do you know that the other 95% isn't aiding and abetting this so-called 5%? After all, the 95% adheres to the same quaran whish says it's o.k to "excuse rape, murder and theft".

After 9/11 happened I have never once seen muslims march in the streets in protest of bin laden or other terrorist. But they sure hit the streets in droves if they see a cartoon they dont like, or their "death to America and Britain" marches. Oh yeah, I think they also marched in SUPPORT of hesbolla once.

I sure would love to know what percentage "moderate muslims" really make up.

It saddens me to say that we (U.S) got what we deserved when they burned our embassy. This whole scene is a nightmare. We claim to be fighting Islamic fundamentalism, and yet we protect Islamic fundamentalists in the Balkans. How pathetic, and dumb we are. Bill Clinton, George Bush, Condoleeza Rice and Nicholas Burns. IDIOTS!

Here is what Major-General Lewis MacKenzie (famous for establishing and commanding Sector Sarajevo as part of the United Nations Protection Force or UNPROFOR in Yugoslavia in 1992) has to say about current events:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnlAbfpycws

"A former KFOR soldier emailed me last night:

Wow. Sitting at my desk today when my fmr. task force commander called me about the Belgrade Embassy.

What do people expect?

Mitrovica will probably be partitioned soon, right along religious, oh, I mean ethnic, fault lines. Expect violence.

Has TMK (KPC) [Kosovo Protection Corps] taken up arms yet?

Watching O’Reilly tonight, he commented on how the US is working for freedom in the region…

I am actually sickened at this whole turn of events. I spent a year of my life there, tracking Saudi funded Wahabbi scum, seeing Serbs murdered, and for what? Cognitive dissonance as to how I, as a US Soldier, can possibly see this as a fight for freedom."

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1430

""Really, in the long term I think conversion to other religions and atheism will be the bulk of the fallout of modern Muslim leaders' decision to violently challenge the West."

One can always hope. But do you see that happening anywhere in the world today to a significant degree? Indeed, the trend seems to be in the opposite direction."

I think that was me...

I'm not saying that out of hope, I'd be cool with a genuine reformation, with reinterp of the texts. My interest is human rights, and that's a theoretically possible way to square the two.

I said what I said because I think the existing ideoogy to tenacious, and I suspect -- give it multiple generations and loooots of infighting -- it is more likely to be eventually bitterly discarded than reformed.

Look at what is happening with the Berbers in N. Africa, for example. In a world with access to books, Jesus starts looking MUCH better than Muhammad after a lifetime, or more, of bloody battles.

Look also in Europe. The enlighenment plus the somewhat more religiously free Protestant areas tended to produce Deism. The more rigid Catholic areas tended to produce atheists, like Voltaire. Of course Christian tradition is overall less totalitarian, so none of these changes had to be absolute - still many Catholics and Protestants remained.

But Islam is different, Islam is far less flexible. SO, the comparison between the two suggests, to me, that Islam is more likely to be discarded than reformed when and if Muslims enter the modern world.


The reed bends in the mild wind. The tree does not.

But a strong enough wind, the reed still bends, but the tree breaks.

We should expel all muslims from Eastern Europe. Drive them south, back to muslim lands.

Kosovo belongs to the West and we should all be angered over yet another God-damned loss to Islamic Imperialism.

Thanks, America.


look at the bigger Picture American and British impealism is to blame for what has happened to the Serbia the facist American empire wants to dictate the world and it does that by breaking countrys up and installing puppet goverments they did the same thing to russia and they done it today to yugoslavia and in iraq The muslims albanians are the barking dogs of the usa and the usa threw kosovo to them like a owner throws a bone to its hungry dog.

the only way serbs will ever get back kosovo is if america Falls and theres no one there to help the albanian terrorist from holding on to stolen land maybe there would be more democracy for persecuted christians if there was no america to stop christians from defending there land from muslim terrorism.

Putin is a traitor and a muslim lover his done nothing to help serbs i am sure his secretly a Puppet of the USA goverment and just acts like his anti west to fool the russian people into voting for him his all talk and no action he would rather help iran build nukes then to help the serbs defend themselfs from american facism and KFor nazi troops

Didn't the US go to war to prevent a wannabe independent country from seceding from it?

"Geo" said at 8:51 PM

"Didn't the US go to war to prevent a wannabe independent country from seceding from it?"
----------------------------------------------

Sure did. Lincoln's primary goal during the American Civil War that began in 1861 was to "preserve the Union", to prevent the breakup of the United States, such as it existed at the time. In terms of casaulties as a percentage of the population, it was the costliest war the U.S. has ever been involved in.

Good article. What you said in my opinion pretty much hit the bulls eye, about this whole ordeal that is going on right now.

In the late 80’ Yugoslavia Slovenia had well the double GDP per capita compared to the average in the federation , Croatia 125%, Serbia on average, Montenegro 74%, Bosnia 68%, Macedonia 63% and Kosovo 27%. Slovenia and Croatia did have barely 30% of the federations population but contributed at least 50% of it’s federal tax revenue where Kosovo was sort of a black hole. In 1986, Kosovo's [demographic] rate of growth was 24.5 for 1,000 population, compared with 6.4 nationally; the rate of infant deaths was 55.8 for 1,000 births, double the national figure, suggesting underdevelopment; and unemployment was 30 percent of the work force, compared with 14 percent nationally.

(Today Sloveina is roundabout on 90% of EU GDP/capita average)

Bosnia is today not closer to an independent nation than it was the day Izetbegovic forced through the creation of a new state on Balkan. One sometimes get the impression the division is only between the Muslim-Croat Federation and Republika Srpska.

The system of "two schools under one roof" was put in place when refugees started returning to heartland areas of the Muslim-Croat federation where once multi-ethnic communities were now clearly dominated by a majority.
The plan, which led to the foundation of 54 schools, aimed to protect minorities against cultural assimilation. In practice, it brought segregation: pupils use separate doors or attend classes in shifts, sitting in rooms bearing the symbols of another nation.
Pressured by Bosnia's Western backers, local officials agreed to create multicultural schools in 2002. But political rivalries derailed the plan and some municipalities are now preparing to separate schools permanently.


I think it was in the 60’s Kosovo was made an autonomous province in Yugoslavia, it have been disconnected from Serbia FRY since 1999. still not much of improvement corruption and mismanagement is still rampant and probably much worse than it was as an autonomous province run by local kosovar communist party officials. Being etnicaly clean Albanian “independent” state will of course not change a thing. Don’t they get it, its about corruptions and a criminal gang running their affairs.

New York Times July 12, 1982
"The [Albanian] nationalists have a two-point platform," according to Beci Hoti [Albanian], an executive secretary of the Communist Party of Kosovo, "first to establish what they call an ethnically clean Albanian republic and then the merger with Albania to form a greater Albania

Mr Hoti, an Albanian, expressed concern voer political pressures that were forcing Serbs to leave Kosovo. "What is important now," he said, "is to establish a climate of security and create confidence."

Belgrade Battles Kosovo Serbs nytimes.com
Published: June 28, 1987
The police clashed here early today with about 1,000 Serbs and Montenegrins protesting what they called terrorism against them by ethnic Albanians in Kosovo Province.

Witnesses said squads of policemen seized demonstrators and forced them into buses to be driven back to their homes in Kosovo. Some protesters were detained for several hours.
The Central Committee meeting was the first in six years dedicated solely to Kosovo problem.
Tensions have been high in the province in southwestern Yugoslavia since the Albanians rioted there in 1981 to back demands for higher status as a republic.
Since then, more than 22,000 Serbs and Montenegrins have fled Kosovo.

The police also prevented large groups of Belgrade residents from joining the protesters by cordoning of the entire center of the city.
Serbs have said the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo have committed atrocities against them, including murder, rape, desecration of graves and churches and blinding of cattle.


September 15, 1987 - New York Times
Ethnic Killing Delivers a Jolt To Yugoslavs
… During the night from Sept. 1-2, a 20-year-old ethnic Albanian conscript ran amok with automatic weapons in a military barracks at Paracin in southern Serbia. By dawn, four non-Albanian soldiers were dead and five were wounded. The conscript's body was found in nearby woods by troops who had ringed the area; he was officially listed as a suicide.

The funeral in Belgrade of one of the victims became the scene of a protest by more than 10,000 people, according to Zivorad Djordjevic, chief spokesman for the Serbian Republic. Kosovo, whose population is 88 percent ethnic Albanian, is an officially autonomous part of the republic.

''Some irrational behavior'' occurred, Mr. Djordjevic said in an interview, referring to anti-Albanian slogans that had been shouted at the funeral. Albanian-Owned Shops Attacked

Elsewhere in Serbia, Serbian nationalists smashed the windows of several dozen Albanian-owned shops, and the authorities made an undisclosed number of arrests for vandalism. …
''The nationalities issue is deeply disturbed and the deterioration is deepening,'' said Ivica Racan, a member of the Presidency of the League of Communists, the party's ruling body. ''There is an irrational and passion-ridden atmosphere. There is no quick solution; repressive measures won't work.'

Many Yugoslavs have expressed a fear that the barracks killings have intensified the possibility that any new incident might provoke army intervention in Kosovo.
''What is tragic is that we may have to introduce repressive measures for security reasons that we know will not solve the problem,'' Mr. Racan said.

New York Times November 1, 1987
Ethnic Albanians in the Government [of Kosovo] have manipulated public funds and regulations to take over land belonging to Serbs. Slavic Orthodox churches have been attacked, and flags have been torn down. Wells have been poisoned and crops burned. Slavic boys have been knifed, and some young ethnic Albanians have been told by their elders to rape Serbian girls.

The goal of the radical nationals among them, one said in an interview, is an "ethnic Albania that includes western Macedonia, southern Montenegro, part of southern Serbia, Kosovo and Albania itself."

As Slavs flee the protracted violence, Kosovo is becoming what ethnic Albanian nationalists have been demanding for years, and especially strongly since the bloody rioting by ethnic Albanians in Pristina in 1981--an "ethnically pure" Albanian region

Serbs and Montenegrins Protest Yugoslav Strife
REUTERS Published: August 22, 1988
More than 20,000 Serbs and Montenegrins have threatened to take up arms to settle ethnic strife in Yugoslavia's Kosovo Province.

At a rally on Saturday in the main square of Titograd, the capital of the republic of Montenegro, the protesters demonstrated against what they called persecution by ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. It was the first rally of its kind outside Serbia, and it included chants of ''We want arms'' by the protesters.

Kosovo, an autonomous province of Serbia, Yugoslavia's biggest republic, has 1.7 million ethnic Albanians and 200,000 Serbs and Montenegrins.

More than 30,000 Serbs and Montenegrins have fled Kosovo since bloody riots by Albanian nationalists rocked the region in 1981. Those who fled said the Albanians were driving them out to create an ethnically pure region. …







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


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