"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity," said Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham.
But he's got it wrong. This is what he should have said: "We must not allow a sense of offense that is exaggerated beyond all proportion ... to be used as a cover for assaulting innocent human beings, destroying the principles of free inquiry (on which rests the harmony of a society in which people of good faith differ in their religious and philosophical perspectives) and imposing the supremacism of one belief-system upon everyone."
"Iran urges Dutch not to air Koran film: report," from Reuters (thanks to Hot Air):
TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran has urged the Netherlands to prevent the screening of a film in which a right-wing populist lawmaker plans to lay out his view of the Koran, a news agency in the Islamic Republic said on Saturday.Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham expressed concern about what he called the making of an offensive film against the Koran in a letter to his Dutch counterpart Ernst Hirsch Ballin, the Fars News Agency said.
He called on Ballin to prevent this "provocative and satanic act on the basis of European Convention on Human Rights," the news agency report, picked up by the BBC in London, said.
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity," Elham, who is also government spokesman, said in the letter.
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
What? What "all of humanity" are you talking about? I don't "respect" Islam or Mo or the Koran.
In fact, the more mockery and ridicule and disparagement of this evil trio the better.
As for "exalted" - hah! You want an "e" word to describe Islam? Try "evil."
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
So when are taqqyia and hate spewing radical imams and muslims in our midst going to start practicing that?
Just wonderin'
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
That never stopped Muslims from assaulting other faiths. Now's a fine time for them to discover civility.
Looks like the chickens have come home to roost.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Islam will be hoist by its own petard.
We should remember Elham's words the next time Islam assaults Christianity or Judaism on television or in print. Al-jazeera, are you listening?
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity," said Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham.
"Secondly, we believe in a free press. We also recognize that with freedom comes responsibilities. With freedom comes the responsibility to be thoughtful about others..."
said President George Bush.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/02/20060208-1.html
Compare & contrast, please.
Something tells me that Wilders's film will prove to be historically pivotal and a breakthrough in the defensive war against Islamic jihad. It will awaken many infidels and enrage the usual believers, catalysing the showdown between Islam and our civilisation. At least I hope so!
Thanks to the Western "open-borders-new-world-order-one-global-government-commerce elite class" - the civilized world has degenerated to such a point as this - in which vile, tyrannical, prehistoric, barbarian, murderous, thugs can dictate terms and conditions of freedoms to us.
Demand from all "elites" -of media (by not promoting the islamosupremacists' views), of academia (by not defending the islamosupremacists "cultural norms"), of business (for still doing business with islamosupremacists), if government (for still "diplomatically" talking things over with the islamosupremacists, and on and on) that they either put a stop this or get out of the way of those who will!
This is not an isolated attack against the Dutch - it is an attack against all of the civilized world!
Each of the larg social systems in the world has one to a few crittical founding "teachers". Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha are spiritual founders for example. Muhammad, Confusious and Socraties are social founders. Whole libarys have been written about this.
Islam is unique in that it's founder was a mass murder. Muhammad was a murder, theft and liar. I am happy the Western world has produced afew people who can examine this question without fear.
Looks like this phony baloney 7th century flim-flam cult of Muhammad is so vulnerable to attack that Muslim clerics in the mid-East are getting very worried that their cash cow & source of obedient females will start to disappear.
The irony of a double-standand--innocuous cartoons are equated with violence and threats. No thinking person should let such exemplars of "Islamic" human rights as Iran and the O.I.C. dictate moral norms to free people ANYWHERE.
Besides, if Ahmadinutjob can sponsor a Anti-Jewish Cartoon-Fest, then WE can pointedly express OUR DEEPEST CONVICTION in cartoon form!
Does anyone here at JIHAD WATCH wish to take part in a cartoon/caricature countercampaign themed "AHMADINAJAB--ERDOGAN--NASRALLAH--OMAR--BIN LADEN--ZAHAWIRI--TARIQ RAMADAN--SAUDI KING ABDULLAH--QADAFI--QARADAWI--(insert name here) As The Heir and Image of THE PROPHET (Perish Blights Upon Humanity)" ??
"Islam is unique in that it's founder was a mass murder." --Ruebacca
The founder of Islam a mass-murderer. That's unique, allright. Mohammedans just hate when you bring that fact up!
Would that this man practiced what he preached. JW has on its home page a poster for Islamo-fascism awareness week. The poster shows people wearing Muslim dress and carrying a placard saying "God Bless Hitler".
No one stopped them from exercising their freedom of speech and I know of no one who would say that Hitler in any way represents the "exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity".
(Was that picture taken in Iran, by any chance?)
"We must not allow freedom of speech..."
When quoting, you can stop there. Yes, it might take the words out of context, but I believe this phrase meets the intent of the speaker.
This is mostly for home consumption to the home audience; however, it shows how allowing the fatwa against Rushdi to stand has morphed. Perhaps it should be considered an act of war to put a death sentence on a country's citizens. Of course, this would imply that countries still cared about their citizens and didn't think of them as cattle.
TIHNB,
I congratulate you! You have succeeded in giving our enemies an appropriate descriptive name -- I S L A M O S U P R E M A C I S T !! -- Brilliant!!
Now, when we wish to both name and characterize the enemies of freedom, of decency, and of inherent human dignity, we can call them ISLAMOSUPREMACY and ISLAMOSUPREMACISTS. Thanks to you.
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity," said Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham."
Who says that Islamic moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity?"
They are an abomination!
"We must not allow the . . . religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
I was initially going to make a comment similar to Darcy's about not everybody respecting that "religion." After a few minutes pondering this I realized that the so called Iran justice minister is absolutely correct. We infidels are not a part of humanity as seen by the true-blue Islamic thinkers.
Translation:
"We must not allow freedom of speech."
Hold on just a minute! Which are those "religious values" that are respected by all of humanity? Taqiyah? Nikah al-muta3? "Slay them whevever you find them" ?
I noticed one thing. Have you ever noticed how Muslims want to join "all religions", when they are under scrutiny, but are "the best of all people" when spekaing from mosques?
What in the Holy Name of Reason elevates the so-called "sensibilities" of these propagandists for Islam (a pseudo-religion based upon total mind control, which calls for the domination and subjugation of every human being on the face of the earth -- by any means whatever) over MY RIGHT to protest being thus subjugated and dominated by followers of a savage 7th century megalomaniac????
Their self-praise for Islam's dubious "religious and moral values" rings hollow when you consider those "values" include stoning, amputation of hands and feet, wife-beating, honor killing, and so many other barbaric practices that should, that MUST, be totally expunged from Western society. (We also need to expunge the PC mindset which requires us to self-censor any dissent, criticism, or mere discussion of Islamic practices because it might lead to "spontaneous demonstrations of outrage" among the "restive" Muslims we have so ill-advisedly permitted to immigrate to our Western nations.)
Well I guess the west should limit it's free speach as long as the arab countries show the same courtesy to Christians.
How about Saudi Arabia not allowing the display of the cross in public.
Hypocrites I say...Hypocrites!
I say to the west.... STAND YOUR GROUND!
The line in the sand has to be drawn somewhere.
A decision as to where and at what point has to be made.
If you fold on this, then the next demand will be even greater. Then even your own kind will not believe you will stand side-by-side in the defense of western values.
"... exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity ..." ???
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think so. This Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham is on the gas pipe. Or, some seriously bad weed.
Why are Muslims so anxious about people finding out what's actually in the Koran?
Most priests I know get pale in the face when challenged about some of Paul's remarks regarding women in Ephesians. They don't try to beat you to death if you bring it up, though.
"respected by all of humanity"
My butt!
Clearly he means "respected by all of humanity or else ..."
I don't have much to add. The previous comments are all right on. Islamic law and rule is an evil in the world that must be stamped out!
Can't be repeated often enough:
The ridiculous statement by this Gholamhossein Elham:
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
and then "the exalted moral and religious values (supposedly of Islam)"
To which can only be repeated the words of the Byzantine emperor of sacred memory:
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
--Manuel II Paleologus, Emperor of the Byzantines, 14th century
As to Moslem "sensibilities," damn them! They (Moslems) only reap what they have sown and are still sowing as to the sensibilities of Christians and Jews.
" . . . exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity . . . "
. . . which are despised by most of non-Islamic humanity (that still outnumbers and outperforms the adherents of "things only evil and inhuman" introduced by this pseudo-prophet Mohammed).
Film title should be changed to:
"The Truth Hurts Doesn't It"
John C, Feb 16 08 3:03 PM:
Credit goes to JW (perhaps specifically to Mr. Robert Spencer) as this descriptive term -"islamosupremacists/ism" - has appeared (and may have origin therein) on this site from time to time
It is indeed an appropriate and descriptive term; Do spread the word
I hope it shows in a theater near me! Skip the popcorn, I'm thinking six pack and a bag of pork rinds.....Unless it's a nicer venue,then maybe some dry red wine and croque monsieurs..
It's all very simple you see; if you agree, then you are part of the human race and your opinion counts.
If you don't agree, then you can't possibly be part of humanity, so it doesn't matter what you think.
Agreed?
When the Bell Rings Thrice
Once,
twice,
thrice
the bell rings.
We drink and feast
and praise the power of the picture,
the power of the word.
We sing joyous songs of freedom
for the infidel, for the kafirs,
the Free, you and me.
Ah the power of the picture,
the power of the word.
When the three swords of truth pierce
the heart of mohammed's beast, its life will cease.
Once,
twice,
thrice
the bell rings.
"Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham expressed concern about what he called the making of an offensive film against the Koran in a letter to his Dutch counterpart Ernst Hirsch Ballin, the Fars News Agency said".
It is precisely offensive thoughts-opinions-ideas-criticism that must be protected by the majority in a truly democratic society-or else there will be Sharia law where questioning-criticism-open disbelief-of Islam is not tolerated. There is no "multiculturalism" in Islam. There are no protections for minority-thoughts-opinions that oppose Islam-in Islam. For that reason, not all agree that it is a "great religion". Some think it is opressive, and want the right to openly criticize it for that reason.
It is Muslim style incitements to violence, threats against others for their opinions-ideas, that must be prosecuted as a violation of individual civil rights. Any threats against an individual who is critical of Islam should be considered a violation of that individuals civil rights and severly prosecuted as a violation of civil rights. That will wake Muslims up to the fact that there will be zero-tolerance of Muslim threats and indimidation on matters of free-speech (the free and open expression of ideas and opinions).
I am all in favour of muslims 'enjoying' *their* rights, especially their freedom of speech, and their self expression.
Their words and actions are often so 'illuminating'...
"There are only two races in the world,
the decent and the indecent."
Victor Frankl - Nazi Holocaust survivor
http://members.dodo.com.au/~wtt626/troublewithislam2.html#There_are_only_two_races_in_the_world
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
Remember: only Muslims are human. Unbelievers are the 'vilest of creatures', things najis, between feaces, urine, cadaver etc. because 'unbelief is worse than slaughter'...
Dear Friends; may peace be upon you,
Koran declares it self a Word of God and contains the latest commandments from Allah revealed for the whole of mankind. Unlike the older denominations we find that the Muslims; the custodian of Koran; possess a reverberating, deep toned and pulsating desire to tell to other nations to come up and know that here is some thing new revealed by God; (the way it was revealed earlier to Moses* and Jesus* at that stage). Koran declares that it has the solutions for all the issues facing the mankind to lead a Godly and better life. There are glad tidings from their God in store.
At the same time; we find that Muslim lot is also very anxious to make this blessing be known to all at any cost. They strive very hard that this be known and reach in all the corners of the earth. It is only because their God directs them to do so and do it with a lightening speed. Muslims also know that other may not be that willing to receive the message. But to tell and to repeatedly tell is their assigned task.
Koran is simply not the inheritance of Muslims. Koran is a Book of God for whole of the mankind. Muslims happen to be just the custodian of it at the time. Koran where openly confirms and validate the truth of the old denominations; it also gives them a call; to hearken and come forward and up grade them selves before it becomes too late. It is a call for all the human beings to come and submit to His Holiness the God Almighty the way He wants us to do and be the recipient of His blessings.
May Allah guide us to the right path; the path of those who have been blessed by Him and not of those who earned the scorn. Amen
We all are His subjects and Him we ought to return.
---------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none
(* peace be upon them)
A Khokar: Koran declares it self a Word of God and contains the latest commandments from Allah revealed for the whole of mankind.
Oh? And just what are Allah's 'latest' commandments?
I was delayed in traffic and missed that part...
This just in, the new commandments:
Kill or extort people who don't like your "glad tidings"
Beat your wife
Rape your slaves
Lie when it's advantageous
Steal from certain people (see #1) so long as you split the loot the way Allah told you to
Publicly dismember the disobedient
. . . I miss any?
Last year Iran sponsored a Holocaust Denial Cartoon Contest. Didn't that settle the score...the proverbial "eye for an eye" of offensive cartoons? Maybe Iran was disappointed that no Westerners rioted, burned and killed over the holocaust cartoons.
"It is a call for all the human beings to come and submit to His Holiness the God Almighty the way He wants us to do and be the recipient of His blessings."
Pretty words. But what you don't seem to be able to understand is that I, and many like me, will NEVER submit!
I like the, "the way He wants us to do" part. There's that Islamic supremacy thing again.
Your religion is a government in disguise...and we know it. Your leaders lust for power. Power to force those who choose freedom to become Muslim or die. Power to slay those who insult Islam. Power to kill anyone that they see as being "un-Islamic", or not sufficiently Islamic. Power to further their own interests. Power to enslave and dominate.
What you call, "the right path", we call "giving up our freedom." And I for one, will never give up my freedom. No hate for Muslims. Lots of hate for those who use Islam to dominate others and want to see me dead because I embrace freedom over tyranny.
Submission...it aint in me. Pretty words will not sway us. We know the beast for what it is. It's death for freedom.
We in the West, the US in particular, have sacrificed countless lives to keep our freedom. We will not hesitate to honor that ultimate sacrifice our brave men and women made. We will continue defending freedom against all threats, so that our children may enjoy the same freedoms we have today.
Save your pretty words for those who have not yet seen Islam for what it is. We know better.
Lovely. Another Muslim troll.
He needs to get together with Thesaracen, join hands and sign Kummbayah.
Don't feed the troll!
Freedom of speech is the freedom to tell thin-skinned superstitious hysterics:
"Go to hell!".
And, if they object, to add: "Take a flying f*** at a rolling donut!"
If they don't like freedom, they're free to leave.
"We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity,"
Woe, all of humanity? Let's not get carried away, really!
Freedom of speech is non-negotiable.
A Khokar, you are sure you have the last revelation of "god".
We are just as sure that you do not have a revelation from God.
You say 1.5 billion people believe what you believe, well another 5 billion reject muhammad and allah.
Muhammad got his revelations as he needed them. His child-bride remarked that it was very convenient how his revelations seemed to come at a time when he wanted something for himself.
Hey if Elham doesn't like the film, he doesn't have to see it.
A Khokar,
I love you as a fellow human being, but your da'wa is hollow. Surely you, as an Ahmadi, are not calling us to embrace Sunni Orthodox Islam, whose adherents, where they dominate and hold sway, persecute non-Muslim and Ahmadiya alike, and of whom many would willingly kill you or me.
I CANNOT, in free conscience, embrace Islam --Ahmadiya or otherwise-- as revealed in the Qur'an (or Koran), since I do not believe the book's claims or evidence, or claims or evidence of Muslims for the book, that It is The Book from God and preexistent with God, as if the book itself is God or a god.
If what the Qur'an says is true, that God has no helpers and that it is wrong to associate helpers with Him, then He has no need of, or help from, the prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an. In fact, I believe Muslims are guilty of BIBLIOLATRY, of worshipping a book, the Qur'an, may God forgive them.
The Peace of God be with you always,
I would hope that the Dutch Justice Minister replied to Justice Minister, Elham, "since our own moral values dictate that we not interfer with with the basic right of an individual to express his opinions by speech or in print, and since we hold our values to be superior to The moral values cited by you, we must decline your suggestion that we prevent the airing of the film in question."
"We further suggest that you reexamine the moral values you hold for their inconsistency with the ideals of a free, enlightened and civilized society."
We must not allow the freedom of speech ... to be used as a cover for assaulting the sensibilities and exalted moral and religious values which are respected by all of humanity," said Justice Minister Gholamhossein Elham this guy is an apparent idiot in the first place islam only has moraland religious values that are respected by many Islamic apologists and Muslims themselves. Anyone that really looks of the so-called Islamic religion realizes that it has all the hallmarks of cult similar to the Jamestown cult or the Branch Davidians. It does not allow cult members to leave the cult, nor does it tolerate any criticism of the cult and demand that all respect
and a khoker
Koran declares it self
that is the problem it declars itself along with Mohammed to be the final word of God
a Word of God and contains the latest commandments from Allah revealed for the whole of mankind. Unlike the older denominations we find that the Muslims; the custodian of Koran;
anyone that thinks realize that Muslims are thevictim of7th-century ConMan
So right now, in these pages, we have Elibiary, Khokar, Naseem, thesaracen and Ibrahim X. Anyone else I left out?
Khokar
Are you from Pakistan? I know a fellow Ahmadi from Lahore who would probably call herself your sister, but you can make her your bibi.
Shadi kar le (Get hitched)
Damn.. I'm just here cuz my GF won't let me put the moves on 'er.. so.. MUCH UNLIKE one of the mahometan BEASTS would do.. I am letting her sleep in peace in the bedroom while I peruse the web for further bad news.. something she is unwilling to distract me from for tonight..
And guess what?! My manhood isn't challenged a bit.
That is exactly what sets us apart from the BEASTS!
We control our passion. We think RATIONAL thoughts.
WE know there is NO passion by coercion.
Ahh.. those dumbass jihadists.. those screwed-up readers of the KKKoran..
It is just too damn easy to feel SUPERIOR to these simple BEASTS.. and yet tghey threaten us all.. basically because those among us who are unsure of why we should live in FREEDOM.. the dastardly LEFTISTS.. keep inventing ever new rationales for defending and enablinbg this pernicious and INFERIOR enemy of OURS!!
EUROPEANS!!! WESTERENERS!!.. PEOPLE of good and FREE WILL...
WE ALL MUST RESIST and FIGHT TOGETHER the PLAGUE of mahometanism!!!!!
To those posters above who have rightfully viewed with suspicion,what appears to be a ridiculous notion put forth by Elham,that islamic "values" are shared by all of "humanity",please recall that terms such as: "human","humanity","human beings",all possess a distinctly different meaning through the lens of islam. The majority of statements referencing "humanity" are catch phrases pertaining exclusively to Muslims and are also intended to indiscriminately backhand all those viewed as subhuman.
Dear Friend,
In its simplest terms I can say that we all are the subjects of God; given a free will to adapt to the changing circumstances but God expect us to strive and also inspires us to discord the wrong and select and adopt the right path. Right from the inception of human being to the present day advanced stage of this specie; God has been deputing the messengers from among the people of the day and revealed His word for the believers to follow. He has made but incumbent upon all the believers to conduct themselves as per the prescribed guidance in the short span of life allotted to us.
Our present-day Religion is just about 6000 years old. Among His different messengers; some were given Books to bring the mankind from the darkness to the Light with the set plan to raise the level of knowledge and to make them moves toward attaining the adulthood of our conscious.
The messengers imparted the required education and enlightenment as per the requirement of the time. On the timeline; this has been the old habit of man that it always resisted the will of God and resisted very vehemently before it came to the terms, and to fall at its knees to repent and finally to submit.
Present day; resentment, the defiance, mocking and persecution in the field of Religion and especially all the filth being hurled at the doors of Islam are not new phenomena. This planet is quite conversant with all that.
After Adam* when the man came up to the enlightened era; God choose and deputed Abraham* to impart a particular teaching as it was required at the infancy stage of human being.
Later Mosses* took us to the youth training camps; say he left us in the Higher school Levels.
Jesus* came as a reformer that this adolescence age of man does require a special steering and guidance and Jesus* tried to take us for the Graduation.
Where as Muhammad* came when the man conscious was reaching its adulthood. He was given Koran to complete the teachings of God Almighty. Muhammad* a revenuer Prophet called the mankind to come and join him at the summit.
Koran says in Chapter 14: Verse 2
“Alif Lam Ra. This is a Book which We have revealed to thee that thou mayest bring mankind out of the depths of darkness into light, by the command of their Lord, to the path of the Mighty, the Praiseworthy –“
In Chapter 5: Verse 17
“ There by does Allah guide those who seek His pleasure on the paths of peace, and leads them out of every kind of darkness into light by His Will and guides them to the right path.”
In Chapter 18: Verse 55
“ And, surely, We have explained in various ways in this Qur'an for the good of mankind all manner of similitude, but of all things man is most contentious.”
In Chapter 3 : Verse 111
“ You are the best people raised for the good of mankind; you enjoin good and forbid evil and believe in Allah. And if the People of the Book had believed, it would have, surely, been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are transgressors.”
---------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none
(*peace be upon them all)
I think the Dutch will have a fight of some sort on their hands soon. Who would have thought it would be the Dutch drawing a line in the Sand? It will be interesting to see if the Average Indigenous Dutchman shows up for something the Government seems a bit mum on. Like the desires of the non-Indigenous.
The UN still recognizes the Rights of Indigenous Peoples do they not?
A Khokar,
First, let's get a few things straight: Islam has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and Christianity, except that it borrowed and perverted their scriptures, Allah in an invention of a self-styled, self-serving, 7th century con-man, Islamic morality is unrecognizable to a Jew or Christian, The personality of Islam's God is completely different than the Judeo/Christian God, there is nothing progressive or enlightend about Islam. It is anathema to any enlightend society that values freedom, justice and human rights, it is totally lacking in spirituality.
Again, Islam and Mohammad have nothing to do with Abraham, Moses, Jesus or any of the other Prophets or Saints of the Judeo/Christian world.
Iran to Dutch: Don't show Qur'an film -- or else..
Please Iranians ! Please, let's move to the "else" stage as quickly as possible.. I wanna see this "else" coming true at once.
Khokar --
Just because mo invented a religion that attempted to increase its membership through the co-opting of religions past, does not mean islam enjoys backward causality. In other words, no one born prior to its invention considered islam as their cult of choice, the same way that Henry Ford's ancestors most certainly did not drive to the market square in model T's. Regardless of your twisted logic, or that contained in a book that relies on self-reference for its authority, you cannot make Abraham or Jesus believe you. Me either for that matter...
So, allah needs you and your ilk to enforce his desires on the kuffar...Why exactly is that? Is he not omnipotent, and does he not allow for freedom of choice, as you say, for us to realize "...the adulthood of our conscious?" Ever watch a Star Trek movie, Khokar? Here's a quote for you: Why does God need a starship?? And why, for that matter, would He need anyone to enforce the dictates of the koran? Or to squelch dissent? I'll hazard a guess: Because mo, then the men responsible for writing the koran, recognized the inherent bankruptcy of the "values" contained therein, and knew that without extreme measures they could not attract or maintain a followership of any note. (Nevermind their reasons for coveting a sizeable congretation in the first place.) The result is muslims who set out honey to attract, turn to sour words when the kuffar don't listen, riot and threaten when we question or criticize, then turn to terror and murder when we refuse to submit. At least, that is how it seems to me.
For most people, there exists an inverse relationship between their actual faith, and their intolerance of any criticism of that faith. Time and again one can see the learned of most religions happily seek out the questions and calmly address the criticisms. It allows them personal strength in their beliefs, and provides opportunity to present the merits of their faith to a WILLING audience who can choose for themselves. You know, with age comes wisdom? I'm afraid the same cannot be said for islam when we see the "righteous" indignation of muslims manifested as threats, destruction and death just because someone drew some pictures so many muslims found offensive. What, exactly, are they so concerned about? Will allah somehow cease to exist if mohammad is caricatured? Will mo lose his heavenly bounty if a cartoonist is allowed to ply his trade? Or do muslims at large continue to over-react to perceived slights because they know that questions precipitate thought, and sound consideration of the foundation and practice of islam could likely cause mass departures from it? Don't worry, that's not likely -- just ask Adbur Rachman...
In any event, Khokar, don't worry that we kuffir will suffer your allah's wrath for our refusal to choose the way of mohammad. It's our choice, remember? I, for one, am comfortable taking that risk. I believe in a benevolent God, Khokar, which neither allah nor mohammad seem to be when I consider the islamic religious texts and the actions of so very many muslims. Of course, that is only my opinion...
Sorry for the typo -- I meant AbduL Rachman, formerly of Afghanistan...
Gondemar
boneshack says:
"He needs to get together with Thesaracen, join hands and sign Kummbayah."
They're much more likely to scream "Allah Akbar" as they slice off our heads.
Thank you, Gondemar, I pray such wisdom is not wasted on Khokar. Ditto on everything you said.
I do have a question though. Why does it always seem as though the muslim trolls never, ever answer debatable issues when they respond? Khokar thinks if he uses lyrical and ethereal jargon to sway us that we will automatically swoon in allah's direction.
Dear A Khokar,
The Book that I hold dear are the books of The New Testament --the Injil, if you like-- especially The Gospel According to Matthew, The Gospel According to Mark, The Gospel According to Luke --including Luke's Acts of The Apostles-- and The Gospel of John. These bear witness to me of the Truth from God that Is God. I venerate these, and the books that preceded them, but God Alone do I worship and adore.
imamerican,
Let me venture a guess: the Qur'an counsels "Do not dispute with the People of The Book."
Posted :
I say to the west.... STAND YOUR GROUND!
The line in the sand has to be drawn somewhere.
A decision as to where and at what point has to be made.
" Never have so many owed so much to so few" , i read that a couple of times because of the importance of the times then , also the
word " NUTS " comes to mind , these simple but defining words at a dangerous time in history are still uttered by free people , the moderate muslims ( if there is such an animal)don't seem to understand what is happening or about to happen.
Dear Rational,Gondemar,Jhon C and All,
I can assume that most of my friends probably don’t like to believe in the Holy Quran but some how they do cherry pick few verses or try to quote some out of context and the most flaring, intriguing verdicts commonly floating in the media; ascribe it to the Holy Quran and high light it here. But if they happen to be studying the Quran them selves with an open mind and with out any mind set; then they will probably not ignore to read; especially What Quran narrates about the earlier denominations, i.e. Israelite (Jews) as well as Christians; especially the verdict where Allah Almighty has scorn the Jews for being the most disobedient and hold them transgressors of the time.
Our God is the most gracious the merciful God. ‘Whatever is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah; and He is the Mighty, the Wise’. God bestowed the mankind with his commandments to guide us through, for our well being and attain a peace and harmony among our societies. This is His grace that He is very much pleased, when He finds us doing good for the mankind and admonishes us for our wrong doings. There is no dearth of provisions on this God’s earth. The people ‘who follow the guidance (given) from their Lord and it (is) who (they) shall prosper’. He wants us to live by his will and act by his guidance as his… humble, obedient servants.
We all humans are a unique creation of God Almighty. As we discussed earlier human beings are in a continuous state of evolution to attain the adult hood of our conscious and to reach for the summit destined by our ‘Gracious Lord’. Our different denominations or religions … on the time scale are nothing except a stepping stones in the process of our evolution. All the prophets of the time had come to conduct…our induction cadres, or training courses to act as our instructors to deliver the God’s Plan. New generation replace the older one but achieved results become the earned values of our society and civilizations. No era has the rights of monopoly over others. Rebellious and defiant civilizations are admonished and in case of non-compliance receive the wrath of God and are wiped off from the face of the earth. Only the humble and God fearing, Just societies live and prosper. Koran says; [10:14]“And We destroyed many generations before you when they did wrong; and there came to them Messengers with clear Signs, but they would not believe. Thus do We requite the guilty people”; and in[2:67]“Thus We made it an example to those of its time and to those who came after it, and a lesson to those who fear God”.
In the history of Religion; the case of Jews is unique. God Almighty declared them as chosen and most favoured creed of the time. But He did admonish them also for their wrong doings. God Almighty became unhappy with their conduct, when they exceeded the limits and punished them heavily. This is very sad that transgression of those people earned them such a degree of ‘wrath of God’. God ceased His hands of blessings and took away His special privileges bestowed upon them. So much so that He devised His alternate ways to bring forth the prophesied ‘Reformer of the time' (Jesus*), and took away the honour from them to even father him.
ur God is Gracious and amend God and is most forgiving. Koran says in [2:161] “But they who repent and openly declare the truth, it is these to whom I turn with forgiveness, and I am Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful”.
No Muslim may say any thing except which is revealed to them in the Holy Koran. As you asked for it; so few narrations from Koran regarding Jews and Christian in the context of ‘wrath of God Almighty’ earned by them are appended below:
• Chapter : 2: (Al-Baqrah) verse: 63 “Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve”.
• Chapter: 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse: 66 “And surely, you have known the end of those amongst you, who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. So We said to them, 'Be ye apes, despised.'’
• Chapter: 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse: “114 And the Jews say, 'The Christians stand on nothing' and the Christians say, 'The Jews stand on nothing;' while they both read the same book. Even thus said those, who had no knowledge, like what they say. But Allah shall judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that wherein they disagree.”
• Chapter: 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse: 121 “And the Jews will never be pleased with thee, or the Christians, unless thou followest their creed. Say 'Surely, Allah's guidance alone is the true guidance,' And if thou follow their evil desires after the knowledge has come to thee, thou shalt have from Allah, no friend nor helper”.
• Chapter: 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse : 136 “And they say, 'Be ye Jews or Christians, then you will be rightly guided,' Say, 'Nay, but follow ye the religion of Abraham who was ever inclined to Allah; he was not of those who associated gods with Allah.’'
• Chapter: 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse: 141 ‘'Do you say that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and his children were Jews or Christians?' Say, 'Do you know better or Allah and who is more unjust than he who hides the testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.'
• Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa') Verse: 47 “There were some among the Jews who pervert words from their proper places. And they say, 'We hear and we disobey' and 'hear us and may God's Word never be heard by you,' and they say, 'Ra'ina.' They say all this twisting with their tongues and seeking to injure the Faith. And if they had said, 'We hear and we obey,' and 'hear thou,' and 'Unzurna,' it would have been better for them and more upright. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief; so they believe but little.”
• Chapter: 4 (Al-Nisa') Verse: 161 “So, because of the transgression of the Jews, We forbade them pure things which had been allowed to them, and also because of their hindering many men from Allah's way.”
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse: 19 “The Jews and the Christians say, 'We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones.' Say, 'Why then does He punish you for your sins? Nay, you are mortals from among those He has created.' He forgives whom He pleases and punishes whom He pleases. And to Allah belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him shall be the final return”.
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verses: 42 “ O Messenger! let not those grieve thee who hasten to fall into disbelief - those who say with their mouths, 'We believe,' but their hearts believe not. And among the Jews too are those who would fondly listen to any lie - who listen for conveying it to other people who have not come to thee. They pervert words after their being put in their right places; and say, 'If you are given this, then accept it, but if you are not given this, then keep away from it.' And as for him whom Allah desires to try, thou shalt not avail him aught against Allah. These are they whose hearts Allah has not been pleased to purify; they shall have disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a severe punishment”.
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse: 45 “ Surely, We sent down the Torah wherein was guidance and light. By it did the Prophets, who were obedient to US, judge for the Jews, as did the godly people and those learned in the Law, because they were required to preserve the Book of Allah, and because they were guardians over it. Therefore fear not men but fear ME; and barter not My signs for a paltry price. And whoso judges not by that which Allah has sent down, these it is who are the disbelievers”.
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse: 52 “O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends of each other. And whoso among you takes them for friends is indeed one of them. Verily Allah guides not the unjust people”.
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse: 61 “Say, 'Shall I inform you of those whose reward with Allah is worst than that? They are those whom Allah has cursed and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made apes and swine and who worship the Evil One. These indeed are in a worse plight, and father astray from the right path’.
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse: 65 “And the Jews say, 'Allah's hand is tied up.' Their own hands shall be tied up and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are wide open. He spends as He pleases. And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will most surely increase many of them in rebellion and disbelief. And We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. Whenever they kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it. And they strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah love not those who create disorder.”
• Chapter : 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse : 70“ Surely those who believed, and the Jews, and the Sabians, and the Christians - whoso believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, on them shall come no fear, nor shall they grieve”.
• Chapter: 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse: 83 “Thou shalt certainly find the Jews and those who associate partners with Allah to be the most vehement of men in enmity against the believers. And thou shalt assuredly find those who say, 'We are Christians,' to be the nearest of them in friendship to the believers. That is because among them are savants and monks and because they are not arrogant”.
• Chapter: 6 (Al-An`am) Verse: 147 “And to those who are Jews We forbade all animals having claws; and of the oxen and the sheep and goats did We forbid them their fats, save that which their backs bear or the entrails or that which is mixed with the bones. With that did We recompense them for their rebellion. And most surely We are truthful”.
• Chapter: 7 (Al-A`raf) Verse: 167 “And when they insolently rebelled against that which they had been forbidden, We said to them, 'Be ye apes despised.'
• Chapter: 9 (Al-Taubah) Verse: 30 “And the Jews say, 'Ezra is the son of Allah,' and the Christians say, 'the Messiah is the son of Allah;' that is what they say with their mouths. They only imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before them. Allah's curse be on them! How they are turned away”.
• Chapter: 16 (Al-Nahl) Verse: 119 “ And to those also who are the Jews, We forbade before this all that We have related to thee. And We wronged them not, but they used to wrong themselves.”
• Chapter: 62 (Al-Jumu`ah) Verse:” Say, 'O ye who are Jews, if you claim that you are the friends of Allah to the exclusion of all other peoples, then wish for death, if, indeed, you are truthful”.
• Chapter: 22 (Al-Hajj) Verse: 18 “ As to those who believe, and the Jews and the Sabians, and the Christians, and the Magians and the idolaters; verily, Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection. Surely, Allah watches over all things.”
• Chapter: 9 (Al-Taubah) Verses: 20 “Those who believed and left their homes for the sake of God and strove in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. And it is they who shall triumph”.]
KORAN SPEAKS VOLUMES on these subjects and God Almighty clearly warn their successors…the Muslims to conduct themselves cautiously to stay the course of righteous people. Possibly what option is left with the believers except to put up to God’s will? Examples of Jews and others are an open book and a clear signs and warning to ponder upon and to act with wisdom; lest they deviate and may land up as the recipient of displeasure of God, like their predecessors.
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Love for all, Hatred for none
A Khokar,
I suppose you'll have to wait until the last judgement to discover just how deceived you are.
If you can't open your heart to God, and ask him to reveal the truth to you, than, at least, you might take a good look at the poverty, injustice and ignorance of the Islamic world to draw some conclusions Islam's Devine orgins.
The dysfunctions of societies in the grip of Islam are the wages paid by Satan. The God I know pays much more handsomely -- both here and in the afterlife.
"I played a jig, and they would not dance. I played a dirge, and they would not mourn."
Decide for yourself what tune God's playing for the twisted world of Islam.
Dear A Khokar,
These Qur'anic (or Koranic) verses offer no evidence to prove that Hebrew or Christian scriptures were perverted or altered, whether by substitution, addition or omission. These verses are tendentious as well. Objective critical scholarship shows the faithful preservation and transmission of Judeo-Christian scriptures over the course of millenia.
A true Christian, as well as any naturally good Jew or other person, would sacrifice his own life for the sake of other human beings. A professor at Virginia Polytechnical Institute, who survived the Nazi Holocaust, blocked the door to his classroom with his own body to save his students from a deranged gunman--at the cost of his own life.
My dear friend Khokar, a true Christian would save you, an Ahmadi, from death at the cost of his own life, too. Would a true Muslim do the same for you, if he knew that you were Ahmadiya?
Yet you say, "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends." [5:52] Why, then, do you call me "friend"??
Muhammad, in revealing the Qur'an (Koran), reveals his own ignorance of the history of salvation:
The question is based on anachronistic supposition: Jews are Post-[Babylonian]Exilic survivors of the Tribe of Judah, decendants of Judah, son of Jacob, called Israel; thus, "Jew." Christians were given their name in ancient Antioch, after Christ, the Messiah, which means "Anointed One."The Jews and Christians are the figurative sons of God and His beloved ones, for "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; ... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them ..." [Genesis 1:26 - 28] As any loving father would, God says, "He whom he loves he chastises."
A Khokar,
Dear friend, needless to say, that loving, self-sacrificing --Christ-like-- professor at Virginia Tech and State U. was a JEW.
Khokar,
Have you read any of the posts that are in reply to yours? Let me summarize them for you.
We will not submit. We will not give up our freedom.
Get it? We are free and will remain so. You sure have some pretty words there, but the reality and brutality of your religion overshadows them completely.
Enough, Khokar, you've made your point.
You have no interest in engaging in dialogue about muslims' near-universal refusal to accept criticism. You care only to engage in your particular version of proselytizing.
In case you've missed it, the koran holds ZERO authority over anyone who chooses not to follow a single word of it, and neither do muslims. No matter the quantity of quotes you extract from that book of yours, you will not succeed in making it apply to anything or anyone pre-dating mohammad's invention, or to anyone who discounts it as unworthy of consideration.
auf wiedersehen
Something that most people seem to leave out for some reason or another is the fact that prophets come for a reason.
Moses came to set God's people free.
Hosea spoke of God's love for a philandering, promiscuous people.
Jeremiah was given a truly crappy task; to bear witness to Israel's fall.
Isaiah, well, he had a whole lot of messages (not the least of which was the prophecies of the Suffering Servant).
Even Jesus, Son of God, who is the only one to hold several titles simultaneously (Prophet, Most High Priest, Sacrifice, etc etc etc look the whole list up in the Bible), in His capacity as Prophet, came to say specific things.
What Muslims fail to understand is that a Prophet foretells and forthtells. What they fail to understand is that you CANNOT divorce a prophet from his message. And what message did Jesus have to give?
For that matter, what message was ol' Mo' sending?
And more to the point, when the Bible (OT, NT or as a whole, up to you) is read, to whom does it point?
Plagiarist "prophet" Mohammad claims that he only stole the religions of the Jews and Christians in order to clean them.
Like a car thief who says he was just taking your vehicle to get it the lube job you neglected.
Islam is a lube job.
There is a Power in the Final Word of God…the Islam.
There is a Power in the Final Word of God…the Islam. This power is like power of flow of water having its mysterious ways of travel. You try to stop or put barriers in its flow; those very barriers and stops tend it to raise its level or take it down to go under ground. But it always finds its way to flow; and then water flows like streams. Streams turn into riverine which pour into rivers. Thus the water when in rivers travels and travels. And it turns into fathomless, huge oceans making the towering waves.
The water the Word of God lives on.
islam shall perish.
Enlightened Western Civilization will prevail.
A Khokar,
"Our present-day Religion is just about 6000 years old."
A correction is in order. The religion of Islam is ONLY 1400-years-old. It is no older then that.
A Khokar,
"Koran declares it self a Word of God and contains the latest commandments from Allah revealed for the whole of mankind. Unlike the older denominations we find that the Muslims; the custodian of Koran; possess a reverberating, deep toned and pulsating desire to tell to other nations to come up and know that here is some thing new revealed by God; (the way it was revealed earlier to Moses* and Jesus* at that stage). Koran declares that it has the solutions for all the issues facing the mankind to lead a Godly and better life. There are glad tidings from their God in store."
Have a question. If the Koran is so great, why is the Bible the number 1 best selling book and greatest book of all time?
Dear A Khokar,
The Word of God Is a Divine Person, Is God Himself, Revealed to us; not a book nor even a Book of books.
To believe in a preexistent, uncreated prototype Koran is to equate the book with God as if it were God or a god --is this not shirk? Is this not ascribing "helpers" to God, assigning partners to God? Making a heavenly Koran that exists independently of God the equal of God and His partner?
Does this not make the Koran's bearer and messenger --to whom no sin or fault is ascribed, and whose EVERY spoken word is ascribed to God as if he were God's partner and stand-in, a messianic vice-regent or co-ruler with God-- a virtual equal of God? Is this NOT BIBLIOLATRY--the worship of "The Book," coupled with the worship of a mere man as if he were God's equal? Is this not also, shirk?
I am your true friend, whether or not you call me friend also; and I do love you, whether you agree with what I say or not. I accept you as you are, an Ahmadi and, yes, a Muslim, whether you accept me likewise or not.
Yours most sincerely,
Boy and Howdy! That Khokar person sure can copy and paste some purty words... I am suitably impressed with his ability to right click.
I guess that last post was supposed to convey the inevitability of Islam. Surely some inspirational stuff there. Whoever wrote that should go to work for Hallmark writin' sappy cards.
Only thing is, it doesn't change my opinion one wit, concerning the nature of his barbarous government in disguise called Islam.
Khokar... As a whole...do you think that people want to be free, or be slaves?
Generally speaking, I'm fairly certain that the majority of thinking beings on the planet wish to be free. Revealing the truth about Islam will make them understand what it means to be Islamic, to lose all freedoms, and live under the direct control of religious fanatics.
This in itself negates the notion that Islam will be embraced by all people. Get a clue.
Now clearly, our new troll here is thoroughly and completely devoid of any real thought processes. Its responses are supplied to him in a book or at some website. They are not the product of any real contemplation on his part. Just prepared responses. So....I guess I'm done with this one to. Although he has not revealed his hatred for us, his feeling of supremacy is clear. Islam bein' the only way and all... Oh...but he's just tryin' to save our souls after all. Poor misguided folk that we are.
Yeah...right... You feel lost? I sure don't.
How come when he puts a verse from the koran to prove his points, it is correct. But when anyone else puts a verse from the koran, it is out of context?