Hamas MP: We used women and children as human shields

According to a hadith, Jews are supposed to be hiding behind rocks and trees................

So why can't Hamas hide behind children? They value them as much as a rock or tree.

"We desire death like you desire life."

So why do you complain when Pali kids are killed? Isnt that what you desire?

"death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children...."

I guess its true, everybody has a talent

How much longer before they receive that which they seek?

This should not be received as news since it is NOT!

The Palestinians have been doing this (using Arab-Muslims aka 'Palestinians' as human shields to deflect Israeli military retaliations) since I can remember. It is also a very commonly used tactic by Islamic mujahideen. BUT--

Hasn't anyone else noticed that Palestinians nearly always conduct military operations against the Israelis from Palestinian "civilian" centers such as residential areas, elementary schools, hospitals etc?? Hasn't anyone ELSE noticed that this is a clear violation of the Geneva Convention which western Europeans so dearly enjoy shoving in the face of the United States during every military conflict it has been involved in since the end of WW2?

One thing I AM certain of: the Europeans have been aware of this Palestinian war tactic against the Jews for a long time and intentionally omitted this from any international political discussions. Notice that Arafat received a Nobel "peace" Prize from the Euro-trash for killing Israeli Jews with (their) imounity.

Maybe the US government (if it gets really bold) can hire a third party to prosecute the HAMAS "government" for war crimes at the World Court. (But of course let's not hold our breath as that it now quite improbable with the cowards we have in office these days).

I think that another way to get this noticed is to prod international human rights organizations to sue the European Union (which has nominally been the Palestinian "government's" biggest financial supporter for at least fourty years now) for being an accessory to Palestinian violations of the Geneva Convention and then suing the current HAMAS "government" for actively perpetrating numerous and reprehensible violations of the Geneva Convention (which is looking more and more like it was conceived by western Europeans to be used chiefly as an anti-American propaganda ploy).

The Europeans will probably be willing to pay about twelve farthings apiece for each Israeli Jew murdered by the Palestinian terrorist 'governments'!

Just more proof that Islam is a death cult for a certain percentage of its followers when they don't get their way (like eradicating the only long-term existing democracy in the Middle East). No other religion functions this way. Deep shame on Islam and on Muslims worldwide who care far more about Islamophobia than basic human rights for all, but then how can any devout Muslim really look upon any non-Muslim with true compassion and as an equal when Islam's own religious law equates non-believers with human waste? Sick stuff. Very.

Islam - the only major religion which regularly practices Human Sacrifices.

OT

Lebanese Druze leader says to Hezballah & Iran bring it on.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1709.htm

Well nearly, worth watching though.

Shafii, a 34-year-old lab technician at the Islamic University of Gaza, glances at his six-year-old daughter. "We were so desperate to have more children," he says. For years, he waited in vain for his wife to bear a son. When she turned 30, the couple decided to get fertility treatment.

Iman Shafii finally became pregnant. During an ultrasound examination, doctors discovered four small embryos. The first died in the fifth month of pregnancy and the second died a few weeks later. Shafii was admitted to the Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, but the condition of the two remaining embryos became increasingly fragile. "You have to go to Israel," the doctor told her.

Because Israel refuses to engage in any contact with the authorities in Hamas-controlled Gaza, patients turn to private brokers who submit their entry applications to the Palestinian Authority of moderate President Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank city of Ramallah. But it can be a lengthy process.

The Shafiis were lucky. Iman was permitted to enter Israel after only 24 hours. She took a taxi to a spot near the Eres border crossing, and then she was pushed in a wheelchair across the last 500 meters of bumpy ground. She reached the Barzilai Hospital in Ashkelon just in time. She gave birth on Feb. 25, by Caesarean section, to a girl, Bayan, and to the couple's long-awaited son, Faisal.
Dr. Shmuel Zangen, the director of the hospital's neonatal unit, doesn't care who he treats. "As a doctor, I enjoy the privilege of not having to think about it," he says.

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2008/03/palestinians-gather-round-car-with.html

@shiva

And you point is?

The sympathy card is not valid especially sense this child will be sacrificed later. It would have been better had it not been born. IMO

Your post is an a front to me. It shows me the superiority and truth of Israel over Islam. If the story were reversed we note the babies would not have received care in Gaza.

Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at March 13, 2008 4:47 PM

I think you missed Shiva's point. Hamas brings destruction and misery to their own people directly by employing civilians as human shields as denoted in the article and indirectly through the problems of engagement with Israel from Hamas controlled areas, which is self-inflicted by Hamas.

It certainly wasn't a pro-Hamas comment, nor was it intended as a slight against Israel. Infact, it explicitly expressed Israel's superior medical care capability.

"We desire death like you desire life."

So why is Israel afraid to do what it must do?

Double Standard Watch: Hamas has declared war on Israel - how should Israel respond?

by Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1170359815127&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Women & children first certainly would reduce Islam to Men only; and without women to reproduce and children to grow up and - well - you get the idea.

Islam will fall from within before it falls from without. Wasn't that Rome's downfall too? It's just a matter of time when the same thing will happen to Islam.

Oh Happy Day!

I can’t “de-cide” what “cide” to call this “Palestinian Industry”
Is it;
Amicicide murder of a friend
Femicide killing of a woman
Filicide killing of one's own child
Fratricide killing of one's brother
Infanticide killing of an infant
Matricide killing of one's mother
Neonaticide killing or killer of a newborn infant
Parricide killing of parents or a parent-like close relative
Prolicide killing of offspring; killing of the human race
Senicide killing of old men
Sororicide killing of one's own sister
Uxoricide killing of one's own wife
Rodenticide killing of rodents?(Hamas)

Way, way too many “cides”to choose from here.

I think the best “cide” would be;
“Deicide” destruction or killing of a god
The god Mohammad brought to life, the god who’s slaves
“Desire death like we desire life."
Yep, that god,Allah, that's the one.

test

Mr Spencer---

What did the young Hofstra Muslims think of your answer about Muslim human shields?

It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

If death is what they love and want and seek, give it to them. By the bomb load. Death until they are all dead if that is their wish. Then there will finally be peace for Israel.

Hammad:
[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Now, isn't that wonderful. I'm getting all choked up at the beautiful diversity of thought and custom that our 'progressive awakening' allows us to appreciate.

"We desire death like you desire life."

Be sure you really believe this, because if it becomes a contest of industrial production, you Hammad, are screwed.

Women & children first certainly would reduce Islam to Men only; and without women to reproduce and children to grow up and - well - you get the idea.

champ,
Not to worry. They'll simply kidnap non-Muslims and, in so doing, acquire new wives and mothers. The men will be able to father new Muslims and the religion and the jihad will go on.

Another article worth savind in your HD.

Speaking of women in Islam,

This is OT, but WND has a story about how women are afraid to seek medical treatment. They risk being divorced just on suspicion of having breast cancer. Male doctors have been killed and the women pulled away from the examination room.

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58773

MP Fathi Hammad did not volunteer for human shield service because, why?

Oh, he is not a woman or a child -- okay, I see; but neither is he a man.

"They use the same sort of propaganda techniques as the Nazis,"
Professor Norman G. Finkelstein, a well-known scholar on Israel/Palestine.

"They take things out of context in order to do personal and political harm to people they don’t like."

'According to a 2005 article in Israel’s Ha’aretz, the Israeli Defense Forces plants fake stories in the Arab media, which it then translates and tries to retail to Israeli journalists. How much of MEMRI is simply an extension of such IDF operations?'

'The questions raised by the Ha’aretz story caused Professor Juan Cole to write, "How much of what we ‘know’ from ‘Arab sources’ about ‘Hizbullah terrorism’ was simply made up by this fantasy factory in Tel Aviv?"

British journalist Brian Whitaker, Middle East editor of the Guardian, dismisses MEMRI as "basically a propaganda machine."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/aug/12/worlddispatch.brianwhitaker

Ken Livingstone, mayor of London, accuses them of "outright distortion," and former CIA case officer Vince Cannistraro has written that "they (MEMRI) are selective and act as propagandists for their political point of view, which is the extreme-right of Likud."

Every story that could possibly make Middle Eastern people look deranged, hateful or diabolical gets translated; anything that could make them look informed, talented or admirable is ignored.

MEMRI says it covers reformers in the Arabic-speaking world, but longtime observers point out that people who make Islam or Arab culture look attractive rarely get translated, regardless of their position.

Nor does MEMRI feature stories about Palestinian suffering, Israeli dissenters, moderate Islamists, Christians in Arab governments or the growing nonviolent movement against the apartheid wall in the Occupied Territories, especially around Bal’in.

On his blog for The Guardian, Brian Whitaker wrote that in a translation of a Hamas video showing Farfur, a Mickey-mouse figure, eliciting political comments from a young girl, the MEMRI transcript misrepresents the segment, by attributing a sentence said by the mouse figure ("I'll shoot") to the child, and ignoring the child's statement ("I'm going to draw a picture") Also, where MEMRI translates the girl as saying "We will annihilate the Jews", Whitaker and others, including Arabic speakers used by CNN, insist that based on careful listening to the low quality video clip, the girl is variously interpreted as saying, "The Jews will[are] shoot[ing at] us" or "The Jews are killing us." Whitaker concluded: "The effect of this is to devalue everything Memri translates - good and bad alike. Responsible news organisations can't rely on anything it says without going back and checking its translations against the original Arabic."

MEMRI blatantly lies, cunningly distorts translations and the claims are not coming from a Muslim, but from Jews and Christians who are against Zionism.

We used woman and children as human shields most likely read ' they said we use woman and children as human shields'.

Only way to find out is to get hold of the source that MEMRI used, to ensure they have not edited the clip or pulled the wool over the eyes of non-Arabic speaking people as they did with Mickey Mouse cartoon, which even I was duped into believing.

They even plant stories in ARAB news media According to who? A Jewish Newspaper.

To make it even worse than it already is, the people who run it are former IDF officials!!! Like they will ever extend an olive branch to the Palestinians.

No doubt, some evil things occur in the Middle East as a result of terrorism, some of Memri's stories are true, but all are selected for a purpose.

In the stories which are particularly damning against the Muslims, you will always find some sort of manipulation.

If Hamas use there own people as human shields, they will never admit it in public with the world's media focusing on them.

Now again, I want to just want to put the the other side out there, not all of this is about hamas. Some of these poor people on the roof are just completely desparate an tryin to protect their flat, and possessions from bein bombed, and loosing everything . just in case there is any compassion in you. again put your self in their situation, and also remember there are probably a few thousand christians living in gaza also, maybe might make you show a little humanity.

these are human beings after all, if you cant even feel a little sorrow and then you really should fear qiyamah.

Not that MEMRI can be considered a as a very credible source, but let's do as it is. First the stupidity of claiming that Hezbollah seeked retaliatory fire by hiding in civilian areas, since Israel didn't need to see Hezbollah to bomb civilians. And if Hezbollah actually did this, then they are more or less the same trash than the subhuman trash who make themselves call the "Only democracy of the Middle East".

The truth is that only Israel's useful idiots believe this crap, since it's been proverd time and time again that Israel purportedly killed civilians, bombings villages, factories, roads (and then telling civilians to flee!), bombing the building a Qana pretending it was a terrorist hideout and then having to admit they had no knowledge about any use of the building by Hezbollah; using 11 years old as human shields because they shit their pants at the sole thought of having to fight the terrorists they hate so much, and all the crimes most of the world know, save the handful of clowns who support this degenerated state who take their money with one hand and sell weapons to their benefactor's ennemies with the other.

Hey PMK - yeah cockroaches always find a way - sigh.

We desire death like you desire life."

Then what stops you from playing on the freeway...liar. You can throw yourself in front of a Mack Truck any time you wish. Allah provided Mack trucks for any muslim seriously interested in death.
Of course we know that there are few muslims that actually want to die, so that kind of talk is for effect only. Islam can't survive if muslims don't survive. Allah would die if all muslims died. The whole point is that everyone must worship Allah only. Well, no one can do that if they are dead. Except jihadi's, but they are a special case.

Hiding behind women and children is a sign of maturity and manhood in Islam. Adam the first muslim proved that when he hid behind Eve's fig leaf, and said, 'it was not my fault Allah, the woman made me do it'. So Adam invented the first rule of self defense, hide behind a woman. And it worked, as you know Allah sided with Adam and punished Eve by creating women stupid, and caused her to bleed once a month. That was because she slashed the tree and made it bleed. According to Tabari anyway.
Children are even better if there are any around.
So you see, hiding behind the helpless is an old tradition in Islam dating to Adam himself. What's new is that someone would actually admit it...

They seek death? I doan theenk so, if they actually did they would not always go into hiding when they are being hunted down, if they truly sought death they would not hide behind the skirts of their womenfolk.

Heck Bin laden and Zawahiri could find death pretty easily but while they extoll it to others they do pretty well at sending others to find it.

Hey PMK - yeah cockroaches always find a way - sigh.

If you mean what I think you mean, yeah they do, and in numbers, as you and the rest of the crew prove. Funny you didn't answer to your claims, but when you are dealing with buffons who repeat the same tantrum about human shields used by Hamas times and times again while ignoring the human shields used by the ziofeces, you can't expect a lot.

Hiding behind women and children is a sign of maturity and manhood in Islam. Adam the first muslim proved that when he hid behind Eve's fig leaf, and said, 'it was not my fault Allah, the woman made me do it'

HELLOOOOOOOOOOO THE ADAM THING WAS FIRST MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE, GENIUS! ROFL

talib:

There would be no bombings of "Palestinian" civilians by Israel's military if HAMAS (and other "Palestinian" 'govermments') didn't provoke the Israelis in the first place by orchestrating pre-meditated military offensive attacks on Israel's civilians (as the "Palestinians" have been doing for decades). If the Muslim world was to leave the Jews alone, the Jews would leave the Muslims alone. But, of course the Muslim world has absolutely NO intention of leaving the Jews alone--now or ever, no matter what the actions or intentions of the Jews may be.

You have given us a classic double standard here. Israelis receive no sympathy from you for the attacks "Palestinians" routinely force on them (despite the losses of life and hardship these extract on the Jews), are in fact subject to your endless condemnations for using the military to defend themselves against what are clearly Palestinian attacks against Israeli non-combatants. Yet the Palestinian attackers receive your sympathy when they are at the receiving end of Israeli retaliatory military raids.

In short you have told us it is acceptable for Muslims to massacre Jews in Israel for reasons of their own choosing, but wrong for Jews to defend themselves if Muslims get hurt. The fact is, however, as long as Muslims attack ANYONE they are going to get hurt one way or another because the victims of the Muslim attacks ARE GOING TO RESPOND-- that is a basic law of the universe (karma--which Islam doesn't teach but should). Period.

By the way, there is no reason to believe the Palestinans deserve your or anyone else's sympathy for the simple reason that it is the Palestinian "governments" that have been conducting the attacks on Jewish civilians in Israel and doing the provocation. But for some mysterious reason, the Palestianians continue to give their "governments" immunity from even the most cursory scrutiny--as far as the Palestinians are concerned it would appear the Palestinian "governments" may kill all the Jews in Israel their hears desire with complete impunity and acceptance from the "Palestinian" community.

Until the Palestinian Arabs FINALLY hold their miserable excuse for "governments" accountable for their jihad attacks on the Jews of Israel (and the Jews have been there for close to 4000 years continuously, make no mistake about it--Israel is legitimately Judaic territory) and stop the attacks on the Jews, the "Palestinian people" have no one but themselves to blame for their nasty predicament.

It is up to "Palestine" to stop attacking the Jews and then there MIGHT be a chance for peace in the Levant--but not until the Muslims concede this.

HELLOOOOOOOOOOO THE ADAM THING WAS FIRST MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE, GENIUS! ROFL
Posted by: Tristan

Thanks for the laugh...I guess you don't read Tabari...LOL

Yes. We hear the trolls. Every time something comes out of the middle east that makes muslim terrorist organisations look bad trolls say its really all just a jewish conspiracy. Some proof of this giant jewish conspiracy is needed to convince people. Very tiring.

If this giant jewish media conspiracy existed the politically correct mainstream media would be all over it, crowing about it to the whole world with every element of the conspiracy dissected and presented in all its glory. We would never hear the end of it. But wait!!!! Nothing. What a surprise.

"Every story that could possibly make Middle Eastern people look deranged, hateful or diabolical gets translated; anything that could make them look informed, talented or admirable is ignored.----thesaracen

I disagree. Wafa Sultan looks like a bright, reasonable individual.

Aaaah, the triumphant return of 'thesaracen'.

Let us have a look see about the sources for his position, shall we?

Brian Whitaker?

You mean this Brian Whitaker?:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/010753.php

Ken Livingstone?

You mean "international Dhimmi of the year, 2007" Ken Livingstone?:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019570.php

Livingstone's dhimmitude and useful Islamic idiocy is well-documented here at this site.

Juan Cole?

you mean the very same Juan Cole as?:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009010.php

Perenially unemployed Norman G. Finkelstein??
The most puzzling and debased example of all:

http://daledamos.blogspot.com/search/label/Norman%20Finkelstein

Memo to 'thesaracen'

Find some real sources that have not been previously exposed YEARS ago at this site for what they are...Saudi-funded henchmen. Maybe then you will convince someone other than 'Talib' and 'Tristan', all entertaining folk in their own regard by the way, of your tenuous position.

They offer no more factual truth than you do.

Read the links.....and weep, my friend.

Somehow I knew it would come down to a bad Arabic translation on MEMRI....it always does.

You and your ilk are utterly laughable.

No doubt, some evil things occur in the Middle East as a result of terrorism, some of Memri's stories are true, but all are selected for a purpose.

In the stories which are particularly damning against the Muslims, you will always find some sort of manipulation.

If Hamas use there own people as human shields, they will never admit it in public with the world's media focusing on them.

Posted by: thesaracen at March 13, 2008 8:06 PM

There is no "IF" about it, but we finally appreciate your candor.

Tristan, didn't your mama teach you that it isn't nice to call people "ziofeces?"

Talib,

Nice to see that you collected your teeth off the floor and came back for another flogging.

Anyway, your claim that You know what they say about the horse that isn't quite dead yet, don't you?

you wrote:
"these are human beings after all, if you cant even feel a little sorrow and then you really should fear qiyamah."

Agreed to a point. They are merely pawns in the ultimate end-game of Islam. They are sacrificed by and portrayed as victims by their own brethren for political purposes. Israelis don't use them as shields, Islamists do.

All you have to do is replace the Islamists with the Israelis as the perpetrators and the whole "Palestinian pity party" makes sense. That scenario of course, also implies a suspension of reality.

Most sentient human beings have a fear of God and some sort of retribution in the afterlife for transgressing on basic human rights values, which they deem as God-given, but I assure you, few to none here anticipate the 'qiyamah' as you put it.

No, we are not into the whole ressurection of Christ at the end of days to kill all the Jews and break the Cross thingy.

Just saying.

I can recommend a good dentist, if needed. All you need do is ask.

"ziofeces"

Posted by: Tristan at March 13, 2008 9:36 PM

'Nuff said. Your comment is not even worth responding to. Give us a shout back when you are done with Geometry tomorrow.

We'll be here...patiently waiting your inevitable return.

MEMRI says it covers reformers in the Arabic-speaking world, but longtime observers point out that people who make Islam or Arab culture look attractive rarely get translated, regardless of their position.

Hmmmm. There are attractive things about Islam and Arabs? Geez, I haven't noticed. Too many actual Muslims, particularly at CAIR doing a really good job of realistically representing it. Thanks, really nice try but banana. I see that some of Talibs friends have taken up his call. Spend your time convincing your brothers on the Muslim boards that Islam is a peaceful religion. THAT might have an impact. But not your bullsh*t here.

"Aaaah, the triumphant return of 'thesaracen'."

Posted by: awake

Just got back from my work week... I did a quick archive search for this debate you seem to indicate "thesaracen" had won, but couldn't find anyone that "thesaracen" debated in the last week while I was off-line. Could you please tell me which article's comment section this happened in? I'm really curious and would sooo love to read it.

senor doeboy:

Saracen won no debate. Rather, he lost badly, as usual. It's tough to successfully argue from an inherent losing position. The whole "triumphant" thing was mockery, since we haven't seen him since his last "tail turn and run episode".

Anyway, this should get you caught up on the fellow.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020117.php

Regards.

Thanks, Awake

I was just wondering if someone else hated debated him since my last "Kumbuya Festival" with him.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020231.php

Huh... just noticed he tried to sneak back into that thread to declare a victory for himself in that debate... his declaration sounds more like a plead not to be debate again. This is going to be a fun weekend. >:)
He just so much fun... but I'll have to play some with Talib and Tristan too.

"I was just wondering if someone else hated* debated him since my last "Kumbuya Festival" with him."

That would actually be “had*”... ooops...bad typing.. but if ya want to claim a Freudian slip... fine with me too..... LOL

Tristan comes on board every once in a blue moon to get his rocks off - so we won't hear from him for another 6 months or so.

Bye Twisted!

thesaracen and I have been going at it, but, strangely, it appears as though he let me have the last word.

He seems suspicious of all translations...

Oops: forgot the link:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020252.php

He basically argues that one can't go by translations of the Qu'ran, and I said this:

Translations of the Qu'ran are the problem, NOT the Qu'ran itself!

This explains why there are jihadists, because the vast majority of Muslims in the world can't read Arabic, and therefore the peaceful Qu'ran, but are getting translations full of hate for kuffars, gender supremacy, Islamic supremacy, and all kinds of badness.

Islam really is a religion of peace, but the translations are translations of war!

(But, the first imam we find preaching jihad who also reads Arabic kinda blows that theory...)

The Prophet (Prepubescents Be Under Him) made no difference between women and children either...

Just shows that there are no innocent civilians among the "Palestinians" minus the small Christian population.

Extract the Christians, assimilate them into Israel and consider the rest fair game.

Let's not get side-tracked here people.
QUESTION: has MEMRI TV lied in the past?

Have they manipulated translations to give an inaccurate picture?

How are they owned by?

Awake you asked me a question awhile back claiming there was a possible contradiction in the Qu'ran, which most likely is from the hundred of BS websites on the Internet. One Google search will bring hundreds of so called contradictions, but you can't prove one. How sad is that?

Mo Foe I will answer your question in the topic that was archived. After doing research, I have found what you claim about female captives of war to be partially true. In all honesty I didn't know what you were talking about.
However I differ whether the Qu'ran is regarding them as sex slaves. I will give you a link. Read it properly. Make sure you read it well, just the same way you read the link about Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his marriage to Aisha (ra). Another one of your strongest claims, which I fell I answered sufficiently.
I'll answer it God willing and you'll see exactly what the Qu'ran is talking about. I will also answer the translations. I want everyone to go to this exact archive and see one of your strongest claims about Islam answered properly. Help each other, if you can see there is no logic in my answer. However, after I'm done, I hope I bring you closer to Islam.

See you all soon

Senor doeboy you know why I claimed victory, even though I shouldn't have? You bought (9:29) in that archive (Pakistan Protesters) you said the Quraysh were victims of genocide when historically, we know thats not true. You claimed that (9:29) also included normal citizens and not enemy combatants. I answered that and made the distinction, did you elaborate on my answer? No, and you know you didn't.

Instead you bought up the same verse, in your final post on that archive,claiming my answer on (9:29) was Taqqiya (I'm a shi'a whose lying to save his life). Did you show me I was lying?

Therefore, if I haven't won, have you? Anyway it's not about victory here it's about defending the truth.
You don't know how to debate Senor, because in a debate, you don't attack the person's character you attack what he has to say, if you can't answer, accept it and come back another day, but don't call it Taqqiya.

"There is no winning or losing, only the truth."

Posted by: awake at March 1, 2008 8:54 PM

saracen,

At least from your posting here today at 10:53am, that you are at least reading some things, and also lifting them, I might add, but hey, who's keping track, right?

you wrote:
"Awake you asked me a question awhile back claiming there was a possible contradiction in the Qu'ran, which most likely is from the hundred of BS websites on the Internet. One Google search will bring hundreds of so called contradictions, but you can't prove one. How sad is that?"

Actually, it is not sad at all. To say I have not proven the unprovable is a moot point. You have not proven the unprovable regarding the Qur'an either.

I understand, as I have previously stated, why you are so adamant about the Qur'an's supposed divinity. The entire foundation of Islam, and the original need for Islam, for an "uncorrupted" text, wholely depends on that premise.

I offered you counterpoints to your argument, one below dealing with scientific flaws:

http://bibleandquran.com/facts.htm

and the other source, Gilchrist's jam al Qur'an, stating historical flaws here:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Gilchrist/Jam/index.html

These were offered in the thread of our previous discussion to which you stopped responding on.

This was the thread:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020117.php

What say you?

Those who blame MEMRI are criticizing the messenger rather than the news. That is the same thing that criticizers of Jihad Watch do: they blame the site for reporting what Jihadists say and do, rather than the Jihadists themselves. Until Muslims can admit the evil things that Muslims say and do in the name of and as the result of Islam, and try to change them, they will remain a mortal danger to the rest of the world and must be resisted.

awake I'm more than happy to debate you. Far from gaining nothing I'm actually improving my knowledge on Islam by debating people like you.
Now I can see it will be an uphill task for me to make one point about Islam seem acceptable to you. But I'll give it my best shot. If I fail, then it's only my lack of knowledge that is failing and not Islam.

My question to you awake is do you believe in God? If the answer is yes, then we can have a debate. If not then I can sit here for a million years and you will never believe anything I say.

Assuming that you do believe in God, I am prepared to debate with you. I'm going to re-read what you had to say in that archive. Anything I haven't answered I will post here.

To everyone else here, I apologise in advance if I'm going off-topic.

Salam

Off topic troll analysis...
Well, the hierophant of superior knowledge is here. Hi Thesaracen.
Dropped in to change the topic, and preach his superior knowledge and wisdom. I am impressed that after so many people, both muslims and infidels, have mis-interpreted the Quran, that finally, someone comes here to straighten everyone out

And this:. However, after I'm done, I hope I bring you closer to Islam.

From above: Do you believe in God?

The first paradox,. Are you referring to Allah?
A messiah complex as well, it seems. He will enlighten us and bring us closer to Islam, and Allah I would suppose.
Well, suppose some of the people here think Allah is a fake? How are you going to convince intelligent people who can read and conceptualize, that Mohammad did not make the whole thing up...with a little help from his friends, not Gabriel. How do you plan to cast the spell of divinity over people who don't recognize it as divine? In order to 'get closer' to Islam, one must recognize it's divinity. How are you going to instill that in people who don't have it and don't want it? The basis of Islam is divinity...Allah.
If you can't convince people that Allah is divinity, then trying to prove something from the Quran is an ego exercise of intellectual masturbation. Nothing more...

"Well, suppose some of the people here think Allah is a fake? How are you going to convince intelligent people who can read and conceptualize, that Mohammad did not make the whole thing up...with a little help from his friends, not Gabriel. How do you plan to cast the spell of divinity over people who don't recognize it as divine? In order to 'get closer' to Islam, one must recognize it's divinity. How are you going to instill that in people who don't have it and don't want it? The basis of Islam is divinity...Allah."

Posted by: duh_swami at March 14, 2008 12:44 PM

Well put an directly to the heart of the matter.

saracen,

My belief in God or not is irrelevant in this discussion. Non-Muslims do not believe that the Qur'an is divine, or else they would be Muslims. Agreed?

Muslims believe the Qur'an is divine or else they would cease to be Muslims. Agreed?

Besides the scientific and historical flaws presented to debunk the Qur'an's divinity, is the context of the book itself. Specifically, Jews and Christians continue in their faith generation after generation, living as they believe their god would want and some per the 'golden rule' of Christ. Many lead exemplary lives with no religious faith at all.

It is incomprehensible that a divine being would universally and perpetually discriminate against so many of his supposed children. That is exactly what the Qur'an does and exactly what Allah mandates of his servants.

It is incomprehensible to think that a divine being would condone perpetual systemic misogyny through the divine condonement of polygamy, but alas, it is Allah's will.

It is also incomprehensible that a divine being would elect the likes of Muhammad to be his greatest prophet, a man who was the actual antithesis of Christ in so, so many ways, regardless of Christ's inclusion in Islam in the ham-handed re-write.

Muhammad re-wrote the Qur'an to suit his needs as they evolved, historically. That is evident by the noticable change in tone as Muhammad gained strength, and the reason the scholars must engage in Naskh to clarify differing opinions because Allah, being all powerful and all-wise also has a tendency to change his mind occassionally.

In Christianity, Christ through kenosis gave up his human will to his Father, and willfully died on the Cross for all people, while still maintaining enduring and unwavering love for all of mankind, even those who put him to death directly and indirectly.

Muhammad's swan song? Poisoned by one of his concubine slaves, a Jew no less.

I am sorry saracen, but if that is what your god has to offer, I prefer the eternal fires. Your Dawah is indeed most wasted here at this site.

awake: Have read your debate here with "the saracen" and am in complete agreement with you that hell is preferable to what the Islamic conception of the deity entails. I don't for a moment think that Islam is the true faith, but in the alternative and for argument's sake, should it actually be the true religion then this is a very creepy universe and God's a monster. I would readily say this to any Muslim who wouldn't be prepared to kill me for saying it, but, of course, that would exclude a hell of a lot of Muslims, who, like Mohammed, do not like to be contradicted or else.

thes states: "However, after I'm done, I hope I bring you closer to Islam."

Why would anyone in their right mind, whether already religious or not, want to draw closer to Islam? Islam is not only a vile governmental construct, but it reduces women to utilitarian Nobodies, and is designed to turn anyone NOT Muslim into a less than Nobody-Slave to this evil system. Oh, and as a Christian, I believe that Islam is a false religion, begun by a false prophet, who worshipped a false god: allah.

We have had this conversation before, thes, and allah is not the God of the Bible as you claim. No way, man:

"Muslims believe that there is no other God besides Allah and that he is the God of the universe. They claim that not only is he their God, but that he is the God of the Jews, the Christians and everyone else. When examining the profile of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and comparing it with Allah’s profile, there are a number of distinct differences between them that can only result in one conclusion: These profiles simply do not match! Allah is NOT the God of the Bible!"

Read it all:
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

And when I am done with you, I hope to bring you closer to Christianity.

Thesaracen, you jumped all around the last time we debated, about how you don’t believe that Hamas used humans shields and yet here you have video of them saying they did. The only argument you can come up with is that must not be accurately translated. You then cite several “sources” to “prove” your “point”, when your sources are called into question about their veracity as legitimate, you switch topics.

This is Mohammedan Debate Tactic #1. Accuse the person of lying, ignorance, and of not being proficient enough in Arabic to understand Islam (regardless of the fact that 80% of Muslims don’t know Arabic). Tell him/her to read "authentic" Muslim websites and texts. Say that critics of Islam are "so-called" experts. Say that once people "learn" about the "real" Islam, they will understand how beautiful and peaceful it is.

Now OT yet connected to this one from our previous debate about this all

Posted by: thesaracen; “Senor doeboy you know why I claimed victory, even though I shouldn't have?”

Know???… I’m not sure of why you claimed any victory, and you’re right you shouldn’t have. You lost the debate the moment you began to hurl personal invectives, but at least this time you didn’t make any direct physical threats. We’ve gone over this before, you can critic what I say, you can analyze what I believe and I can do the same. I feel sorry for anyone that has invested their ego so heavily in a religion they view anything that questions, analyzes, or casts a shadow of doubt upon it as a person attack. This is normal found within a cult and it’s members.

Posted by: thesaracen March 11, 2008 1:28 PM; “You're a bunch of liars. You'd lie about anything as long as it's in your interests. You old cunt. Get a bit more knowledge old man. Your a brave man, or a fake. The law may not exist but why will you offend someone, only for old-ass to get knocked out? Freedom.... freedom.... freedom.......... No-one gives a fuck about your freedom you old cunt. I don't. Go out and practice your freedom, let's see how brave you are. Tell everyone about your homosexual fantasies. Your just a fake. On a website your all talk, but in the open YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT, like the good little Dhimmi you are. (This is) a lesson for you, a painful one at that, judging by your change in tone. Mo foe you little rat...Why you hiding behind this weakling anyway. Come forward and speak let's see what knowledge you have. Bunch of homos. )”

I referred to THIS as your Dawah, perhaps you misunderstood my sarcasm. In my opinion when you came “off the hook” like this, you lost it, your synapses snapped and your composure was lost along with your positions in a debate. You attempted to combat reason with your rage. And this, is why my tone changed, the debate was over I so no more reason to speak with you and left you to rant. And as for “painful” lesson, don’t think so, some pathetic Homophobic Misogynistic, and Geriatric Phobic rants don’t phase me, my self-image isn’t based on the opinions of others. (FYI I’m not homosexual, but the fact you project this upon people that oppose your attempts to sell us on Sharia is very telling. I hear they don’t have a “homosexual problem” in Iran though, you might like it there. Oh, wait, they’re Shia, you’d might have “issues” with them for being “rafiki dogs”.)

Posted by: thesaracen March 11, 2008 1:28 PM; “I’m called a Muslim not a Mohammedan. You pick and choose what language to apply certain words to. But Arabic is our language. If you don't like it then don't use any Arabic terms from here on in. Just don't contradict yourself. You love this Taqqiya, do you know what it means?”

For yet for another time, you can’t be seriously this dense (and I mean that in a way of saying this is obviously a debate diversion tactic). No, that word is the word you want to call yourselves. It’s an Arabic word for “Those who have submitted to peace through submission to Allah”. And again, I do NOT subscribe to the concept behind this foreign word. I prefer the much more precise word in my own language that is MOHAMMEDAN it simple means, “Those that follow the tenets of Mohamet”, a simple and direct definition of the facts. People who ascribe to the Tenets of Mohamet are followers of there of, and are there for MOHAMMEDAN. It’s that simple, and no I don’t believe that anything about the definition of the Arabic word is correct in principle. There for yet another time I choose to use my language and not allow you to begin framing the debate by trying to determine the language or the definitions we can use. If you follow the tenets of Mohamet, you are a Mohammedan. Next, English does pick up new words like the French word “Déjà vu” (there was no English word equivalent prior to the inclusion of this French word and so it is now in the English lexicon), also I’m told the Arabic word “lemon”. I’m very willing to use words from other idioms that fit the situation. BUT I don’t see “peace” in the tenets of Mohamet, so they are merely Mohammedan (the proper English word, or perhaps you think you can tell the Spanish they can’t use the word “El Mores”). Mohammedan are the followers of the tenets of Mohamet. (This is an Old English spelling of the name, you really should be happy a Najis Kafur doesn’t use the so called “real” name of your spiritual leader and sully it by using it… roflmao.) And as for TAQQIYA, I know it’s officially in Arabic supposed to be a tactic of the Shia to prevent the Sunni from slaughtering them. This in and of itself is something that the knowledge of would make any civilized person pause and recoil at. Next given that Mohammedan said “War is Deceit” and we are Najis Kafur in Dar-al-Harb it’s stands to reason the same principles of “Kitman” and “Taqqiya” are used by all Mohammedan at their pleasure and convenience. As such English being a very proactive and versatile language you can say you are watching the inclusion of yet another word we don’t have a word for. Taqqiya; “The misdirection, half-truths, misinformation, omissions, and out right lies used by Jihadist, Dawahist, Kitman and others interested in lulling Kafur into a false sense of safety and security.” Hey, a presto, our society and thinking has been altered and influenced by the tenets of Mohamet, forever. Something to take pride in I guess, “Islam to the World” (saw that on one of those Mohammedan banners in “Merry Old England”). Just a little FYI for you thesaracen, I’ve taken the time to save this paragraph down in “Microsoft Word”. This is so the next time you try this Mohammedan Debate Tactic I’ll just copy paste it for you.

Posted by: thesaracen March 11, 2008 1:28 PM; “When was the last time you made a insulting cartoon about.... Hindus?”

First, I’m not a cartoonist, second perhaps you missed all those episodes of “The Simpsons”. In these you see “Homer” poke fun at Abu over his religion. Though Abu is incensed over it he remains composed (not rioting like a chimp). In fact the cartoon has a double poke if you think of it, “Homer” is shown to be a boorish lout at the same time actually through out the entire cartoon.

Posted by: thesaracen; “You bought (9:29) in that archive (Pakistan Protesters) you said the Quraysh were victims of genocide when historically, we know thats not true.”

Interesting… we do? First where are the “Quraysh now? After all, all the men were killed, then women sent to be raped repetitively for life and the prepubescent males enslaved to die in the misery of drudgery. This is not a form of Genocide you say? Should we remember this for the future engagements that this is what you considered acceptable behavior for the victors?

Posted by: thesaracen; “You claimed that (9:29) also included normal citizens and not enemy combatants. I answered that and made the distinction, did you elaborate on my answer?”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4

What “Non-combatants”? Remember when asked about how to deal with women and children the Great Mohamet himself said of women in children in the enemies’ camps “They are of the enemy.” Oh, I’m sure you’ll try to argue that the enemies were hiding behind them, but as we see from this video taken of HAMAS, HAMAS IS PROUD TO HIDE BEHIND CHILDREN. Where as the Quraysh were under siege and having their trade pillaged and their leaders assassinated. (I’m sure you’re ready to claim the same for the so-called “Palestinians”, but the Quraysh didn’t use their resources to launch rockets at their neighboring state, in fact the Quraysh just wanted Mohamet and his followers to leave them alone.)

Posted by: thesaracen; “No, and you know you didn't.”

You’re right, I didn’t respond fully, but I told you that you could go off and rant on your own. I said I had to return to my workweek and didn’t have time to play with you any more. But I did address it this time.

Posted by: thesaracen; “Instead you bought up the same verse, in your final post on that archive,claiming my answer on (9:29) was Taqqiya (I'm a shi'a whose lying to save his life). Did you show me I was lying?”

Oh yeah, and here is that verse, yet again… please show me where it says “Fight the Quraysh”? You can’t and you also can’t claim it was about them since they had been WIPED OUT at the time Mohamet issued this command. This was written when Mohamet instructed his… “Ambassadors” to go to Tabuk and… err…“open relations” with the Byzantine Empire.

Koran Chapter 9 Verse 29 (One of many militant verses in the Sword Chapter)
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection

Come on… where is the words “Fight the Quraysh”? Not there is it. To claim that something is there and it is not, or it is there and claim it is not, THIS IS SURELY ONE OF THE FORMS OF TAQQIYA! (TAQQIYA, I know it’s officially in Arabic supposed to be a tactic of the Shia to prevent the Sunni from slaughtering them. This in and of itself is something that the knowledge of would make any civilized person pause and recoil at.)

Posted by: thesaracen; “No, jizya is not about people becoming second class citizens.”

You’re right The Jizya isn’t about becoming second class citizens, it’s part of the system of Dhimmitude, WHICH IS ALL ABOUT MAKING PEOPLE SECOND CLASS CITIZEN IN THE OWN HOMES.

Posted by: thesaracen; “You think there is a link between (9:29) and normal sharia law but in the space of let's see.... 1 minute that whole perverted belief you had, has come crashing down. (9:29) fight the Quraysh.”

SHOW ME, SHOW ME, SHOW ME THE WORDS “FIGHT THE QURAYSH”!!! I have read all about the historical content and the timing of this verse for the Tabuk raids. And I see only CONVERT, SUBMIT AND PAY THE JIZYA OR DIE!! Also I note that convert, submit and pay the jizya, or die is what you consider a “normal sharia law”… I don’t even need to bother with (9:29), but that is one of the places it can be found.

Posted by: thesaracen; “Sharia law regarding the dhimmi's pay jizya, which is nothing, drink, eat pork, keep your customs and have your churches and synogogues protected.”

Gee thanks… how about I NOT pay the jizya, drink what I want, eat what I want and keep my customs (saying you let people keep their customs under Sharia is a bold face form of TAQQIYA). I ASLO WILL PROTECT MY PLACES OF WORSHIP, BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE I HAVE TO PROTECT THEM FROM IS THE MOHAMMEDAN!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkgHkxIfgBc

Posted by: thesaracen; “No Zakah is required of you, nor do you have to fight alongside the Muslims.”

This “Zakah” is charity or alms for the poor Mohammedan, why would we want to give to that after all the suffering they would cause me as a Dhimmi? And fight along side with the Mohammedan to help them conqueror other peoples, you have got to be kidding. Also, you seem to forget about the Marmaluke and Jannasseries, Christian boys ripped from their homes and forced to fight as soldiers-slaves (cannon fodder).

Posted by: thesaracen; “WOW, all that for a few pennies, what a bargain.”

Mohamet established the Jizya on the farmers of Khaybar, and that was at 50% of their annual yield, Oh yeah… that’s a lot of pennies not to be attacked by the Mohammedan.

Posted by: thesaracen; “ If you don't like it, go to another country.”

Since you live in the UK, from what I understand. Are you saying that the English all must now leave? Let’s face it, if any of us had said something to the tune of this you’d be howling. So as such I have only one question on Sharia Laws and Dhimmitude. Are you “Thesaracen” willing to live under the conditions of a Dhimmi? This is a YES or NO question. You don’t get to claim you’re a Mohammedan, so Dhimmitude isn’t for you. You don’t get to claim you live in the UK and aren’t subject to it. Simple answer, YES or NO are you willing to live as a Dhimmi? Anything other then a YES or a NO will be construed as a NO.

Posted by: thesaracen; “Therefore, if I haven't won, have you? Anyway it's not about victory here it's about defending the truth. You don't know how to debate Senor, because in a debate, you don't attack the person's character you attack what he has to say, if you can't answer, accept it and come back another day, but don't call it Taqqiya.”

Truth?!?! TRUTH?!?!?! I’ve been debunking your propaganda for a while now, in fact that is why you became “unhinged”. You lost the debate the moment you began to hurl personal invectives, but at least this time you didn’t make any direct physical threats. We’ve gone over this before, you can critic what I say, you can analyze what I believe and I can do the same. I feel sorry for anyone that has invested their ego so heavily in a religion they view anything that questions, analyzes, or casts a shadow of doubt upon it as a person attack. This is normal found within a cult and it’s members because their sense of self worth is no longer their own.

For those of you interested this link will lead you to a page that lays out many of the Mohammedan debate tactics.

http://www.sonsofapesandpigs.org/2008/02/muslim-responses-to-unpleasant.html

Hamas, a group of people all willing to die for a place they will never live in. Pitiful.

For some reason the idea of an Islamic Heaven is a Whore House where God is the Madam/Pimp and my Daughter works there some how manages to lose its appeal for me.

Would we all get the Spitzer treatment X 72?

Awake- I thought I answered the Gilchrist claims but we'll get back to that.

Science in the bible and Quran.
This topic was bought up by Dr William Campbell of answeringIslam.com.

He once had a debate with a man named Dr Zakir Naik regarding this topic. You can find it on youtube if you haven't seen it already. I've seen it and if you've seen it, then there's no way Dr Campbell can continue truly believing these claims. He was utterly trounced, to the point that all Ali Sina could say on his website was that Dr Zakir Naik was using illusion and deception techniques. Have a look for yourselves and tell me if thats true.

Anyway I've had a look at the website, which more or less covers the same topics as that debate.
What you need to remember is that Muslims believe the bible was sent down by God, so many things in the Bible are most certainly true. The only thing that you can pick at, is the words used in the Quran because the stories of creation, are almost identical in structure.
This website is an agreement with Islam in that God created mankind.
First things first the author says the Quran is confusing in the way man was created. In one Surah it says from water, in another it says from a blood clot in another it says from a drop of thickening fluid and in another it says from dust.
Well firstly Adam (as) wasn't created the same way his children (You and I) are created.
Some of the Surahs are telling us how Adam (as) was created.
Since he had no father, was Adam (as) created from a drop of thickening fluid (Sperm)? No.

So it's not confusing in anyway, it will only confuse those who do not know how Adam was created. In fact it is scientifically proven, that you and I are created from water, a drop of thickening fluid, which turns into a blood clot. All are true.
And it is accepted among Christians, Jews and Muslims, that Adam was created from dust.
So after claiming the Quran is confusing, what does the author go on to state?:
'Today, scientists agree that our body is made up of dust and water.'

'We read in the Bible that God took the clay, it seems God made a paste, poured it like milk and curdled like cheese. It seems God used a mold to make human beings. He allowed the clay paste to set in the mold.'

According to science????? Would it not make more sense, if God only said 'Be' for Adam to be created? At least elaborate and show us why God used a mold. Are there any other verses which support this in the bible?

The account of the creation of Eve in the bible is true and I don't deny it.

How many creators are there because God uses the term 'We' in the Quran?

Using the term 'We' is only signifying God's majesty, His Royalty. There is only one creator.

http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php

The shape of the Earth.
The author has not understood that 'the earth' can be used to describe the surface of the planet as well as the Planet Earth itself.
The Earth IS laid out flat as a carpet. Although of course it's not smooth and flat, we don't realise that it is rounded do we?
If I go to the south Pole, and I was to apply the authors logic, I'm facing south, therefore the force of gravity should send me tumbling out of the Planet earth, because it's round.
But we know that's not possible because God has spread out the surface of Earth as like a carpet, flat. Only when we go out of the atmosphere do we realise, that the PLANET EARTH is not flat, it is round.
Do we notice the curvature of the earth on land?

Creation in six days or eight?
Firstly the Qu'ran says (What means)
"He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days... (11:7)
So if thats what one verse says, then there is for a certainty no contradiction in the verses the author of the website bought up.

What the author has done is to add up the numbers and came up with eight. But when you read the four verses he highlighted the first two are regarding the creation of the earth.
The first verse says the earth was created in two days but the second verse says four days. When you read it properly God is stating the earth itself took two days and a further two days for everything thats in the earth to be completed- Altogether four days.
Then the seven heavens took a another two days to be completed. So how many days is that?

In the last claim, the author states that God does not know where the Sun sets. But didn't the hadiths he mentioned clearly state that the Sun asks God for permission to rise and sets under his throne? That would indicate that God is well-aware of where the Sun is.
Then he says that it is scientifically incorrect to say that the Sun has a fixed course. So I suppose that the Solar System makes up the entire Universe.
The Sun and the Solar System do not move with the Milky Way galaxy? If thats not the case, since I don't know enough about the subject, I'm sure you can show me evidence, which suggests the solar system does not move in a circular motion in the Milky Way. I don't know.

Senor Doeboy and Awake -

I declare you two the winners over this match with thes - although it's hardly a fair fight when you put a couple of experienced heavyweights in the ring with a junior lightweight.

thes -

Wow, they really left you bloodied & bruised. Need a bandage? Pain reliever? Doctor appt? Please don't ask for a rematch, because I cannot stand the sight of blood.

Thanks for the laugh...I guess you don't read Tabari...LOL

I read you, and that was enough for a good laugh.

'Nuff said. Your comment is not even worth responding to. Give us a shout back when you are done with Geometry tomorrow.

We'll be here...patiently waiting your inevitable return.

Not that you can answer my comment anyway. But you guys always have to find something to not have a true debate. When it's not that, you say we are "trolls", so we aren't worth responding to either. Would you tell the same thing in the case of someone who would use a similar term referring to Muslims?

Sure. XD

BTW I don't have geometry. And I hope you didn't say that while being a left-over, while pretending not to.

Bye Twisted

Unbelievable! You remember me from months ago?? I must have had quite an impact on you!

Bye Twisted! XD

Dude, you're famous!

Your "ziofeces" crap has left a lasting impression, and it isn't the first time you've used that phrase, so it's hard to get rid of the smell.

Ok guys, we must move on.

Anyone remember the Qana massacre, right? The one where the ziofeces (or zionazis if you prefer) pretended there were katiushas inside the building, a version their useful idiots repeated like the stupid lapdogs they are?

Well:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message272585/pg1

it's hard to get rid of the smell.

Then clean your house, dude!

Tristan,

As was pointed out to you, you cannot expect respectful discourse when using the term "ziofeces". It is unwarranted vitriol and childish. This particular video in this thread actually substantiates the claims about Hamas that we here are already all too familiar with.

Even though I disagree with thesaracen on most everything, which ususally is the case when Muslims and non-Muslims engage, I have certainly been respectful.

Muslim's Islamic beliefs are contingent upon the Qur'an being divine. Without that premise, it is merely heresy or adulterated plagarism, neither of which reflect well on the ideology or its creator in my estimation, Muhammad.

It appears that thesaracen and I have come to an impasse on this issue, therefore there is no reason to continue on this present course.

Neither of us will concede the point and for obvious reasons, for concession in this area basically has one absorbed into the other's ideology.

As I stated in my comment on this thread at 1:31pm today, I have made my position on the subject, crystal clear. There is no need for Dawah here, and I am sure I speak for many, if not all readers at this site.

I am sure we will cross paths again, and I look forward to it.

Regards.

As was pointed out to you, you cannot expect respectful discourse when using the term "ziofeces". It is unwarranted vitriol and childish. This particular video in this thread actually substantiates the claims about Hamas that we here are already all too familiar with.

I call them as the terrorists they are must be called. I'm not referring to all the zionists, only those who drive Israel to continue the crushing of the Palestinian and Lebanes people. Not that the terrorists of the other side are any better, in case anyone wonders. Anyway an interesting question would be: why is the use of human shields by Hamas mentioned in JW but not the use by Israel??

awake- Fine by me.

Senor Doeboy- Fine since you feel it is your duty to make me look foolish.

Firstly I did not change the subject you guys did. Every time a Muslim comments on here, you go mad about our religion even when the article is about Hamas. I cam on this post and spoke about MEMRI TV. It didn't go down well. So before I could even reply, the post went into Islam. Was that my fault?

80% of Muslims don't speak Arabic????? Where did you find that figure from?

Fine if you want to use the translations, so be it, despite the fact English and Arabic are two different languages, with two different structures. But from now on, don't reject one translation because another one, which is different, sounds better to you.

If I was to ask you the basic teachings of Islam, you wouldn’t know? If I was to ask you that question, I know what you would come up with anyway. But proof me wrong.

Ok, so some of the things you say about Islam is not an attack? I have respect for your religion, you don’t have it for mine or the Muslims. Physical threats over the Internet. Ok yeah, sure.

My ego is just fine, I don’t have one actually, you came to me, you attacked me, you wanted to debate me. Why exactly? To show me how much knowledge you have on Islam?

I believe Islam is the truth, I’m not harming anyone. I saw a lot of things written on this website which were untrue. I can’t sit back and not try and change the mentality of you people. What am I doing wrong?

"You'd lie about anything as long as it's in your interests. You old cunt. Get a bit more knowledge old man"

This is only the reaction of a human being who’s faced with insult after insult, shouldn’t have said it though, so I apologise.
Some of the things you have said about the Palestinians is even worse. Something about (Shit) you remember that???

Oh ok, so you saw me angry and then your tone changed, is that right? LOL. Yeah, sure you did. I’m not selling you anything. Don’t bring up Islam and you won’t hear a word of it. We can talk about MEMRI TV all day long.

Fine call me a Mohammedan, that’s your personal choice however, it's not what ENGLISH SPEAKING people call me.
So you realize what Taqqiya is; don’t use against me again, as I’ll also save your definition of it on Word. Claims, claims, yeah war is deceit, army generals let their enemies know everything and keep to honesty, yeah, sources my friend. Think before you type.

"First, I’m not a cartoonist, second perhaps you missed all those episodes of “The Simpsons"

Do the Hindu’s have a law in their religion, which is against being poked fun at?
But we have a law in, which WE are not allowed to draw any pictures of the Prophet’s whatsoever. The Danish cartoonists knew this and to incite violence they went ahead with it. Had they drawn a terrorist bomber, no would have complained, but they drew Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), so no, I don’t care how many episodes of the Simpsons there are, that will never hide freedom of speech being used as a foil for pure hatred. If you are civilized, why are you going to insult someone anyway?

"Interesting… we do? First where are the “Quraysh" now?

Was Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) Not one of the Quraysh? Simple question, why did they attack the Muslims? Did they not try and assassinate the Prophet, THREE TIMES?
YOU ARE LYING IF YOU SAY THE MUSLIMS ATTACKED THEM FIRST AND YOU KNOW IT. If it’s Genocide, the woman and children would have also been killed, were they?

"What “Non-combatants”? Remember when asked about how to deal with women and children the Great Mohamet himself said of women in children in the enemies’"

Of course they are. Their husbands and brothers are out their fighting the Muslims, yes or no? So who are they going to support?
I’m assuming your saying the Prophet said, kill the woman and children as well? LOL is there any end to how ridiculous your claims are.

"You’re right, I didn’t respond fully, "

Play?????

Oh yeah, and here is that verse, yet again… please show me where it says “Fight the Quraysh”?

I assumed it was the Quraysh that’s not the point. Is it, as you claimed before regarding normal citizens? Obviously not, because now your saying it was the Byzantine Empire.

When one translations says’ Fight back’ and another says ‘Fight those’, which one will you believe? I know for a fact that you will choose the latter, because the first one will rid any blame from the Muslims. Now sit there and defend the English translations.

I never said I was incapable of making mistakes, I assumed it was the Quraysh, since most of the battles were against them.

"You’re right The Jizya isn’t about becoming second class citizens"

One dinar a year is what you are crying about. At the time of the Islamic empire, when you consider, some of the other places these people could have lived, I’m sure you would have given up one dinar happily.
Also since you can’t serve in the Muslim army, pay that ONE DINAR as compensation for that. If it was the other way round, I have to pay that tax. Woman, children, the elderly, the poor and the disabled were exempt from that tax. One time a Muslim nation was attacked, I think by the Romans, I’ll find you the source. You know what the Muslim ruler did? He gave back all the money collected in Jizya and gave it back to the people and said’ since we can’t guarantee your safety, take your money back.’

http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/jizya-in-islam/

"Gee thanks… how about I NOT pay the jizya, drink.."
Ermm yeah like Christians didn’t go around demolishing buildings. Who, rebuilt the Western Wall in Jerusalem, BTW?

This “Zakah” is charity or alms for the poor Mohammedan,
Marmaluke????? Show me the source?

Are you saying that the English all must now leave?

Is Britain a Muslim country? Did I even mention Britain????
Like I said leave aside British Law, Islamically I have to pay that tax and respect the authority of that country. Read the link and see if it’s….. Taqqiya. If you don’t like the Jizya, then you could have gone to Rome and become a slave, whatever suits you best. I have no problem with this tax I have to pay, even though my security is not guaranteed, nor does it exempt anyone from paying it.

"Truth?!?! TRUTH?!?!?! I’ve been debunking..."

I became angry at the way you spoke of Palestinians, talk all you want about Islam, you haven’t debunked anything. You’ve insulted, insulted, insulted. What debate tactics are you talking about?

I'm going to look at some of the things you have bought up, if you are lying, I won't think twice about exposing you. Me on the other hand, I have made mistakes, but I will admit them, let's see if you can do the same.

Tristan,

Your latest offering was far better, with the exception of a foundational flaw...Israel is not a terrorist nation, never has been, and never will be. Their ideology forbids it.

To answer your question, I don't believe that Israel uses human shields, at least not in terms deemed by the rational. A Palestinian suicide bomber kills Jewish civilians in a school last week, children, and for some reason the "disproportionate" response by Israel justifies the tu quoque argument that Israel uses human shields?

It is doubtful that you will convince anyone here of that parallel reality that you have chosen to live in.

Suffustion by Islam does tend to have that effect on people, but that fact alone does not provide a shred of truth to that conviction, whether divinely inspired, or not.

To the trolls.

If you find some actual evidence for this grand jewish media conspiracy you beleive in let the western media tv broadcasters know about it. Posting here won't do your conspiracy theories any good. There are plenty of muslim friendly western broadcasters with a combined audience of hudreds of millions out there. If you can prove your case with provable facts they will go into a media frenzy and broadcast your news all over the world straight away, or in a few days at the longest to do a several hour long tv special on it. So what are you waiting for? Your total victory awaits (if you have actaul evidence).

Tristan, you pathetic lying sack of shit, there was a rocket launcher right next to Qana. That's what your Hezzie and Hamas buddies do, they put civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes. And like the dummy you are, you fall for it like ton of bricks.

Gary Rosen - I agree that Tristan is a trouble maker; as he always has been. He doesn't post on JW very often, but if memory serves me correctly, one of his comments was removed because it was VERY anti-semetic, so that tells you he is a liar with an agenda.

We are on to you Tristan - you Jew hater!! Go pollute someone else's website with your stench.

I Stand 4 Israel!!

Tristan -

You need to do some extensive homework and stop listening to the poopaganda concerning the Palestinians & Israel.

Why don't the Palestinians have a state? First of all, the Palestinian Arabs DO have a state. Its called Jordan!

Read it all:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine_whynostate.php

--------------------------------------------------

Additionally, you would do well to educate yourself about Jewish history too:

"Misconception #1 - Jews are an imperialistic foreign nation with no connection to the Land."

Not true!!!

"Many people believe that the situation in Israel is one of a foreign nation imposing its will on the local, native population. The Jews, having no connection to the land itself, arrived in the last 100 years, and quickly began to violently take land from the native Arabs who had been there forever. Clearly though, when one looks at history, this conception is proven false. Jews have had an intensely strong connection to the Land of Israel for an even longer time period than the Arabs themselves."

"When discussing the Land of Israel, Arabs often begin the history in the year 638. This is the year that Omar, a follower of Muhammad, conquered Jerusalem. Muhammad himself never came to Israel, dying in 632, but his followers soon arrived and took over the land. The Palestinian side describes this time in history as the beginning of the importance of this land. In truth it is - to the Muslim world. But to the wider world around them - specifically the Jewish as well as Christian world, the importance of the land of Israel dates back much further. This view ignores the over 1800 years of history before the arrival of Muslims, which contained a continual Jewish presence."

"Jews first came to the land of Israel as a nation, in the year 1272 BCE. This dates back 1800-1900 years before Islam even began! For the next 13 centuries, Jewish Kings and prophets changed the world spiritually and culturally. Finally, the Jews were exiled by the Romans (their second exile) from being an autonomous ruling kingdom in Israel in the year 70 CE. This means that 600 years before Islam was even created - Jews were already yearning to come back to their land! Thus, it is impossible to begin looking in the year 638 CE to understand what's happening in the Middle East, since there is a rich Jewish history much before."

Read it all:
http://www.israelactivism.com/article.php?articleid=275&table=factsheets

I fully expect to here less of your bullshit after reading the above links. Have a nice day.

Your latest offering was far better, with the exception of a foundational flaw...Israel is not a terrorist nation, never has been, and never will be. Their ideology forbids it.

At the contrary, it was born with terror, maintened with terror, and thanks to terror it will survive. And what "ideology" are you speaking about? The ideology that allows their army to use human shields? The ideology of the crazed settlers who are occupying the Palestinian Lebensraums? The ideology of caring for the Holocaust survivors when those survivors are treated like shit?? Yes, this is one of the greatest aberrations about the degenerated state considered (by few) to be the only democracy of the Middle East.

To answer your question, I don't believe that Israel uses human shields, at least not in terms deemed by the rational.

Only the nazionists themsleves, their useful idiots, and a few misguided (mainly in America) would believe it. You must be American, seeing what kind of medias you have over there. Now google it, and you haven't found anything, just tell me... I will help you.

It is doubtful that you will convince anyone here of that parallel reality that you have chosen to live in.

You are the only one who lives in your fantasy world about Israel being the good guys. Deal with it.

Suffustion by Islam does tend to have that effect on people, but that fact alone does not provide a shred of truth to that conviction, whether divinely inspired, or not.

An atheist or a religious can be just as stupid, and I wonder if you are not beginning to be an example of this. Who told you I was Muslim?

Now Gary my friend!

Tristan, you pathetic lying sack of shit, there was a rocket launcher right next to Qana. That's what your Hezzie and Hamas buddies do, they put civilians in harm's way for propaganda purposes. And like the dummy you are, you fall for it like ton of bricks.

Gary, retarded piece of shit, I know it's hard for you to recognize that all what you and the rest of the gullible idiots have been fed up are lies, but can't you see the new comes from the IDF itself through Haaretz?? Or maybe you will say Haaretz is anti-semite???

The Israel Defense Forces had said after the deadly air-strike that many rockets had been launched from Qana. However, it changed its version on Monday.

Gary? It was said there was rockets in the building, Gary!

one of his comments was removed because it was VERY anti-semetic, so that tells you he is a liar with an agenda.

You must tell me what such comment was! If indeed it was anti-semitic, I will present an apology, promised!

But anyway, how could I doubt you, after all you are the CHAMP. HAHAHAHA

Next time: Israel's weapons sales to Irak and China. Stay tunned!

Additionally, you would do well to educate yourself about Jewish history too:

"Misconception #1 - Jews are an imperialistic foreign nation with no connection to the Land."

Not true!!!

"Many people believe that the situation in Israel is one of a foreign nation imposing its will on the local, native population. The Jews, having no connection to the land itself, arrived in the last 100 years, and quickly began to violently take land from the native Arabs who had been there forever. Clearly though, when one looks at history, this conception is proven false. Jews have had an intensely strong connection to the Land of Israel for an even longer time period than the Arabs themselves."

Now what the hell is that about? What do I care about how many Jews and how much time they have been living in Palestine, when those that emigrated to Israel weren't born in it, unlike the Arabs the zionists expulsed, who had been living there for generations?? Can't you see that according to this same logic, all the Americans should leave the US to the native Indians??

"Can't you see that according to this same logic, all the Americans should leave the US to the native Indians??"

That's your response? Thank you for that answer, because that tells me that you do not wish to have a reasonable or rational conversation based upon facts or current events. BTW - we are not currently having a conflict with native Americans. Are you still in Junior High?

No, champ. My answer was this:

Now what the hell is that about? What do I care about how many Jews and how much time they have been living in Palestine, when those that emigrated to Israel weren't born in it, unlike the Arabs the zionists expulsed, who had been living there for generations?? Can't you see that according to this same logic, all the Americans should leave the US to the native Indians??

Now you didnt even understand these two lines, it seems. If I mentioned the example of the Native Americans, it is because they have been living in the US for far more time than the Americans from European origin! So why did the zionists have the right to steal another people's land but the native Americans didn't and don't?? The logical thing would be that all those Americans that support Israel get out of the US and leave the country to the natives who were there before them!

And who said the violence or lack of violence is an issue?

Mythical “Palestinians” and their fictitious state, invented in 1967.

All this whimpering about mythical “Palestine” is the result of losing the war the Arabs declared against Israel in 1948. To even mention a state for the “Palestinians” before 1967 was to admit defeat to the Jews.

For 19 years Trans-Jordan and Egypt occupied the Westbank and Gaza strip, not once did they offer these mythical “Palestinians” a state.

After the humiliating loss the Arabs suffered in the six day war, the state of “Palestine” was born.

Mythical “Palestinians”

Yes, because you say it. XD

This is another one of the stupid arguments used - for what? Just to despise the Palestinians it seems. Since whether they are or not Palestinians does not affect in any way the intentions of Israel.

Following the same brillant argument, one could mention the period when Israel was actually two kingdoms warring one another.

"So why did the zionists have the right to steal another people's land but the native Americans didn't and don't??"

Lord!!!! They didn't steal anything!!

You really need to read the link that I took the time to provide for you, because the Jews did not steal that land as you allege, bonehead.

I find it more fascinating that you did not refute my assertions that you are a Jew hater, but instead brought up native Americans. Why not? If someone accused me of being antisemetic then they would have hell to pay since it is not true - but not you. I suppose because you ARE a Jew hater, right? Either admit to it or refute it. Which is it?

That is a more important question, tristan, and you know it; but I think I already know the answer based upon some of your past posts - posts that were deleted because of antisemetic rhetoric.

Get lost, Jew hater!

Ironic that all these “Palestinians” all hold “Jordanian passports”, why?

My “Palestinian” friend from Jordan has yet to answer me, can you?

Lord!!!! They didn't steal anything!!

When someone takes another one's houses and lands, it's called stealing, stupid!

You really need to read the link that I took the time to provide for you, because the Jews did not steal that land as you allege, bonehead.

First, stop using the term "Jews", stupid. Not all Jews are zionists.

Now what did your link say. That Arabs willingly gave their land to zionists???

I find it more fascinating that you did not refute my assertions that you are a Jew hater, but instead brought up native Americans. Why not?

What I find fascinating is you thinking that I should bother refuting anything from YOU??? But tell me, why the hell should I care if some random cretin calls me anti-semite, furthermore when he mentions some "post" but doesn't tell what this post is??

If someone accused me of being antisemetic then they would have hell to pay since it is not true

Oh stop man, you scare me ROFL.

What if you were called Muslim - hater, tough?

Ironic that all these “Palestinians” all hold “Jordanian passports”, why?

My “Palestinian” friend from Jordan has yet to answer me, can you?

Passport don't indicate nationality, burger. International recogniztion and one's own feelings do.

I mean, are you telling they are not Palestinians just because you say it?

Tell me, does your Palestinian friend consider himself Jordanian or Palestinian??

If someone accused me of being antisemetic then they would have hell to pay since it is not true

Oh stop man, you scare me ROFL.

What if you were called Muslim - hater, tough?

Ironic that all these “Palestinians” all hold “Jordanian passports”, why?

My “Palestinian” friend from Jordan has yet to answer me, can you?

Passport don't indicate nationality, burger. International recogniztion and one's own feelings do.

I mean, are you telling they are not Palestinians just because you say it?

Tell me, does your Palestinian friend consider himself Jordanian or Palestinian??

Now let's go on.

It is surprising that some zionists were not only racist towards Palestine's Arabs, but also towards Jews of Arab country as well!

"Even the immigrant of North Africa, who looks like a savage, who has never read a book in his life, not even a religious one, and doesn't even know how to say his prayers, either wittingly or unwittingly has behind him a spiritual heritage of thousands of years. . . ." (1949, The First Israelis, p. 157)

"[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that only exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules." 'Ahad Ha'Am warned: "We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a great error. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind . . . Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they will not easily step aside." (One Palestine Complete, p. 104)

There is far more of this stuff, but it's enough for now.

"Now what did your link say. That Arabs willingly gave their land to zionists???"

>>Try reading it yourself.

"What I find fascinating is you thinking that I should bother refuting anything from YOU???"

>>Non answers qualify as a "Yes" to my question, so thanks for clarifying the fact that you are anti-semetic.

"But tell me, why the hell should I care if some random cretin calls me anti-semite, furthermore when he mentions some "post" but doesn't tell what this post is??"

>>The comment was deleted - as in Poof - it's gone! So I can hardly produce it now. But I do remember WHY it was deleted because it contained anti-semetic slurs - and you know it.

And I don't need to produce this comment as "proof", because the proof already exists right here, right now, in the fact that you are unwilling to refute my Jew Hating allegation. The jury is out - you are a Jew Hater!

Bye Jew Hater!

And may each and every other poster please note where this troll stands, because it's very obvious to this Jew & Israel Lover!!

....later loser Jew/Israel Hater.

"Now what did your link say. That Arabs willingly gave their land to zionists???"

>>Try reading it yourself.

This is a vain and stupid answer, cretin. Do you think it is any different if I was talking with a nazi about the Holocaust, he provides a link to a nazi site, and when before checking that link I ask a basic question, how the death of 6 million people was faked, he would tell me "Just read???

>>Non answers qualify as a "Yes" to my question, so thanks for clarifying the fact that you are anti-semetic.

Only because you say it, moron. Bothering to refute the accusation you and the rest of the useful idiots constantly make against the critics of Israel would mean I enter your game, and that would mean I'm as a stupid as you. Besides, you wouldn't believe if I told you I wasn't antisemitic, so what is all this about??

AND ANYWAY HOW COULD I REFUTE YOU IF YOU ARE THE CHAMP?? HAHAHA

>>The comment was deleted - as in Poof - it's gone! So I can hardly produce it now. But I do remember WHY it was deleted because it contained anti-semetic slurs - and you know it.

But surely you remember what those comments were! Else, why should we believe you?

COME ON, AFTER ARE YOU ALL THE CHAMP!!

More from Benny your friend:

By the turn of the 20th century, Ben-Gurion advocated exclusively Jewish labor (Avodah Ivrit) in Jewish businesses. He explained why a Jewish laborer should earn a higher salary because:

"[he was] more intelligent and diligent" than the Arab. (Shabtai Teveth, p. 12-13)

Yeah... like American Blacks, eh?

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story696.html

It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

That being said, why is Israel holding back? Why is the West - increasingly suffering the terrorist plague that has festered against Israel for decades - holding back? (Rhetorical questions only - we all know the sad answers to these and related questions only too well).

Give them what they want!

Let Israel loose against them in a full scale reconquest of Gaza and the West Bank and the destruction of all Arab and other Islamist resistance, unleashing total war if that's what it takes!

Sad that the innocent - those not sharing the thinking of this metastasizing death cult - will suffer along with the guilty, but this is always the case in war. Palestinians of whatever persuasion - Moslems included - who reject this psychopathy do not suffer less harm by being abandoned to live under its wretched reign of terror than they would having to endure the bombardment of full scale military operations and the harsh reality of subsequent occupation aimed at once and for all defeating Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO and the rest of whole despicable range of terrorist psychotics that Islamist and Arabist brainrot produces.

The moral analogy for these times is the destruction of wartime Germany by the Allied powers, which did not cringe from the fight even knowing that there were numerous anti-Nazi Germans carrying on resistance against the regime as best they could. Would it have been better for these people if we had left them to their own devices, in what would likely have been a futile resistance that would have allowed the German fascist regime to fester indefinitely and possibly to conceal the evidence of its crimes from the world and from history? Would it have been more humane to let them suffer the risk to their children and to future generations of Germans of bing indoctrinated and enslaved into this nightmarish culture indefinitely? Hardly! God forbid that anyone should think so either (even if there are plenty of peacenik nitwits who do).

And God forbid that it takes the emergence of the global caliiphate of Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood and its other spinoffs, are working on weaving together to get us to act, because the result of this militaristic nightmare may be war on a scale far greater than anything seen yet in the history of humanity.

It's time to nip this in the bud. Damn the UN (what a pathetic and contemptible joke that organization has become!) and anything else in the way. The only specific restraint I would place on Israeli and allied forces is that they not use any nukes or other WMDs. Otherwise, have at them!

Let Israel loose against them in a full scale reconquest of Gaza and the West Bank and the destruction of all Arab and other Islamist resistance, unleashing total war if that's what it takes!

It is always good to be reminded about the brainwashed trash on the other side, that's it, the Christian ones.

Yup, here goes the other cheek turning and the love to your ennemy down the toilet, among other things.

But what else to expect from someone called "templar"? ROFL. Now he will tell us that the Crusades were justified and that the crusaders were freedom fighters.

Now it is time for my much anticipated proof of Israel's gratitude to his benefactor!

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0509-07.htm

The American wingnuts are as stupid as ever, they just can't stop helping people who will harm their country later. First the Taliban, now Israel.

tristan is a troll with two left feet - ignore the rantings of a fool who obviously needs to change his moniker to 'stupid'.

....and please wipe the drool from your chin.

You are so right, man. What could I do against a guy whose moniker is the CHAMP? HAHAHA

Btw, CHAMP, did you read the stuff?

...uh...not a guy, moron....all WOMAN; besides champ is merely an abbreviation for my last name, so it's a nickname given to me by family & friends.

You should change your moniker to JEW HATER, because at least that would be more honest; and I would bet that you hate Christians too. Nice guy. Not!

Sorry lady!

But did you read my stuff or not?? I mean, it would be interesting to see what you have to say about Israel's pimping on the US, especially from a champ!

Btw, what should I change my moniker to?? "Stupid" or "Jew Hater". Make up your mind!

No.

Read mine, tristard?

....sorry

I mean, JEW HATER.

We are not advancing, champ.

I mean, I would think the first thing you would do is say it's all anti-Israel propaganda, because Israel couldn't do such a thing! So you believe it??

Now, do you have another "erased" post that proves I'm a Christians hater, in addition to a Jews hater?? XD

...just a hunch...do you hate Christians, too?

Just answer the question with a simple yes or no.

Champ- You gave me a link hoping that I would come closer to Christianity LOL!!! Read it again my friend and let's see whose calling for death for preaching anything against Christianity?
It even exposed your whole religion right at the end of the website. Jesus was sent by God.... something along those lines... But I thought he was God?

But anyway Israel. Do they have terrorists? Yes. According to the Jewish Israeli Newspaper Haaretz.

Has a Jew not once gone into a mosque and killed many Muslims? Yes. He's a National Hero!!

Is there anti-Arab media in Israel. yes? But let's focus on Hamas TV.

Is Palestine a state? No. So how are they going to stop terrorism, if you won't let them.

I don't care if Jews where in Canaan 2000 years ago, so were Palestinians.

I remember awake once saying there hasn't been one example of a religious war (Crusade) in the name of Christianity, in the last century.
So what was the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire called? Regime change?
The Ottoman's ruled over Palestine, so to get at it and give it back to Jews and fulfill Rothschild's favor on the West, the Ottoman Empire had to be dismantled.

Now I got nothing against Jews. But if they won't even allow a Palestinian state to exist at least demolish your many thousand settlements and retreat back to the borders the UN Resolution dictates.
After doing that then you can start demanding the Palestinians recognise a Jewish state. Why are they going to recognise a bunch of people who committed acts of terrorism against them in the first place? You know a lot of Arabs were slaughtered don't deny it.

They even turned on the British, who were helping them!! Is that a lie too?

These acts of terrorism triggered the Six Day war with the Arab nations, which contrary to popular belief, Israel didn't fight alone.

Now the roles have reversed and it's the Palestinians who don't have a state. But they do the same thing as the Israeli's did to seize Israel and Islam is blamed for it. So what were the Jews following Kabala?

One guy posted a message here saying, if we had information exposing MEMRI TV why not alert the many 'pro-Islam' media outlets around the world.

I'd like you to elaborate and highlight, which ones are 'pro-Islam'. You won't find one.

Any how, The Guardian ran a story about it. Blatantly exposing MEMRI TV's tactics of fooling non-Arabic speaking people by manipulating the translations.
Since I didn't hear about it without doing research and you sure as hell didn't hear about it. What does tell you about the power of the Islamic lobby? It doesn't exist.

I thought MEMRI TV was an Iranian state broadcaster!!! Little did I know it is run by Zionists.

Now Hamas says in a public rally 'they used human shields.' Source... MEMRI TV.
Does that seem realistic to you. It certainly doesn't to me.

But regardless, injustice is taking place in Israel. Many non-Muslim sources have highlighted it and you're still adamant Israel is not run by terrorists. But hey, what do I know, I'm a Muslim.

The pictures don't lie I'm afraid.

thes states: "It even exposed your whole religion right at the end of the website. Jesus was sent by God.... something along those lines... But I thought he was God?"

Sheesh thes - can't you read? And please be more specific, because your statement "along those lines" is waterdown and weak. Take me to the exact phrase supporting your claim, because I know you are full of crap. You either didn't read it right, or like a brainwashed Mohammadean, you can't accept the Truth even when it's put in front of you.

Two-fisted-trolls: thes & tris

Guess it's my lucky day.....

I'm sure that thes & tris will have plenty to discuss - a match made in hell.

Champ- You gave me a link hoping that I would come closer to Christianity LOL!!!

thes, the only reason I said that is because you stating the same thing to me hoping to draw me "closer to Islam", so I was only reversing your attempts to convert me. Believe me, the idea of becoming a Muslim is equalling amusing. LOL!!!

I don't get orders from stupids, girl. Not even a champ. XD

Unless you tell me first if you will believe me if I say "no"? It is essential we solve this detail first!

COMING NEXT! After zionist racism, Israel's lies and Israel's pimping of the US, The treatment of Holocaust survivors in Israel. Stay tunned!

First of all, I'm not stupid; second of all, I'm probably old enough to be your mother given your communication style & obvious lack of maturity.

You feel "ordered around" when asked a simple yes or no question? Sounds like you're the "girl", my friend, and a thin skinned girl at that.

How hard is it to answer a simple question? Do you hate Christians, or do you NOT hate Christians?

Once again you've implicated yourself by not answering the question directly and by becoming defensive instead.

**OK - it's official - tristan hates both Jews & Christians, folks, because I haven't read a single statement from him refutting this allegation when given the opportunity**

I seem to have tuned into the Twilight Zone - time to change channels and to stop feeding this trolls.

Goodbye twins!

Tristan:

If you want to "advance", I'd suggest that you cease your war of insults with Champ, and return to the issue of the thread.

Rather than simply denounce me as a "brainwashed Christian" who has "flushed down the toilet" this or that commandment (frankly the tone of your comments so far prompts me to believe that your comprehension of Christian moral theology is weak and you simply don't know what you're talking about in any of this, and even less so when you discuss your profile of me, but that would get us into domains of discussion that does not belong in this forum, so let's avoid it), why don't you give us the benefit of your analysis in order to shake me out of my medieval Christian backwardness and enlighten all of us here. What do you think is the significance of Hammad's comments? What is at the root of that kind of corrosive hatred? And what is the solution that you would propose?

Of course, if your answer is to undermine Israel, don't expect not to be taken to task over it, your complaint about Israel's arms sales to China notwithstanding. Don't think that you'll be accomplishing anything other than making a fool of yourself here if you continue to engage in temper tantrums, innuendo and insults.

As far as the issue of human shields goes, it is not surprizing that some of this goes on on both sides; human rights simply do not thrive in war, especially in a conflict like this one, having lasted for decades. That it has come to this should surprize no one. The point of the MEMRI report is that it should hardly be surprizing that civilians die when Israel defends itself since those civilians are deliberately put in harm's way (by their own people! - that's the significant detail) in order to shame and demoralize Israel, and no one should fall for this game of moral blackmail and manipulation. You can cast aspersions on MEMRI as much as you like and it proves little of any value. There are examples of questionable reporting in the Arab media as well. And this information is not dependent on MEMRI alone. It has been reported by other agencies besides.

The galling thing about the Mid East conflict is that, given the stakes involved in this for the Arabs, by any objective standard it should have either never occurred at all or been settled generations ago. It is only the fanatical, irrational, perverse and idiotic revulsion of the Arab world toward the existence of a non-Muslim society on a tiny, infinitesimal, insignificant part of the region that accounts for this intractable struggle. The Arabs are not the only people in the world to suffer a territorial loss; this has happened repeatedly to peoples everywhere, and often on a scale far greater than what the Arabs lost (if it really was their "loss") and yet nowhere else has it led to the kind of violent and irresolvable impasse, nor are they used as excuses to threaten terrorist violence around the globe, the way this one is. Anywhere else in the world, it would have been possible to reach agreements on compensation for the losses suffered by the displaced populations, and for everyone to move on and resume building normal life. This could have happened in Palestine as well with some cooperation from the Arab states. But that the most vulnerable people, such as children, are dragged into this ridiculous, self-defeating hatred by their parents, elders and other guardians, is the really despicable part of this. Israeli soldiers may have used civilians on the enemy side as cover, and that, while despicable, does not indicate anything remotely approaching the kind of pathological hatred toward the Arabs that Arab targetting of their own people (!) does. Just what kind of diseased state of mind has permeated Arab culture to allow this, and what does it tell us about the Arab world's desire for peace?

Yes there is Jewish and Israeli terrorism as well, but I simply do not see the Jewish side undertaking this on anything approaching the scale, either numerically (some of the extremist settlers' movements are an exception, but they're small) or ideologically (the Israeli government does not fund the activities of these terrorists as Arab governments fund Palestinian "martyrdom", nor are Jewish children encouraged to become suicide bombers), with which it occurs on the Arab side.

Saracen:

You've got to be kidding! The defeat of Turkey in War I was a Crusade?! The dismantling of the Ottoman Empire was a part of a strategy of Christian Holy War?! Pleeeeze! Give me a break! Get your mind out the Middle Ages (or should I say the 7th century?!). The simple fact is that Ottoman administration was weak and backward to a point that it was beyond rehabilitation. Turkey lost the war fair and square, despite its alliance with two major Christian powers - Germany and Austria (that alone demonstrates how ridiculous it is to cite that as a cause for Islamic grievance!), and the triumphant allies had every right to dismantle that creaky old monstrosity in favour of the autonomy of the peoples that had been held down for so long by it. As it was, this was the best thing that could have happened to Turkey, since it allowed the country to modernize.

None of the rulers of Europe, with the possible exception of the Russian tsar gave a damn about spreading the Christian faith, least of all by war. The whole thing was fought over emerging nationalism (not a religious movement) and over access to resources in colonial empires. Besides, both Germany and Britain had considered the Ottoman Empire as a potential ally - hardly something that would characterize "Holy War on behalf of Christendom", wouldn't you agree?

And in any case, it served the Turks right. Having tried to invade Europe twice (1572 and 1683), both without cause or provocation, solely in the Islamist cause of spreading the faith, it was a rotten state, a threat to the peace of the world, and it got what it deserved.

You feel "ordered around" when asked a simple yes or no question? Sounds like you're the "girl", my friend, and a thin skinned girl at that.

First: yes, you are a stupid. Insuling people and then asking their to apport proof that the insult is not true instead of apporting yourself the proof that the insult is true requires one to be very stupid. Do you understand??

Second, did your mum teach to you add "please" when you demand someone to do something?

And finally, why the hell should I answer you when you didn't tell me if you were going to believe me? Can't you see how stupid you look?

Goodbye champ! Don't hesitate to come back!

Rather than simply denounce me as a "brainwashed Christian" who has "flushed down the toilet" this or that commandment (frankly the tone of your comments so far prompts me to believe that your comprehension of Christian moral theology is weak and you simply don't know what you're talking about in any of this, and even less so when you discuss your profile of me, but that would get us into domains of discussion that does not belong in this forum, so let's avoid it)

It's a shame. I would have loved to learn how a "total war" can be made according to the precepts Christians boast so much about when they compare their religion to those of the terrorists, while in fact advocating the same thing... but nevermind.

What do you think is the significance of Hammad's comments? What is at the root of that kind of corrosive hatred? And what is the solution that you would propose?

The solution is simple: Israel giving back what it has stolen.

Of course, if your answer is to undermine Israel, don't expect not to be taken to task over it, your complaint about Israel's arms sales to China notwithstanding.

Complaining??? Im not complaining! It's you who should be concerned about it! Don't you guys always say Israel is the US' most faithful ally and all this kind of idiocies?? Do you really think I care about what this degenerated state does with the weapons its gullible ally provides him with??

As far as the issue of human shields goes, it is not surprizing blah blah

Not surprizing Israel uses human shields?? But what are you talking about?? Isn't Israel a democracy??

Or maybe... Yes, I get it. Maybe it's also the fault of Hamas if the Israeli nazis use 11 years old girls as human shields! Yes, this must be that!

The Arabs are not the only people in the world to suffer a territorial loss; this has happened repeatedly to peoples everywhere, and often on a scale far greater than what the Arabs lost (if it really was their "loss") and yet nowhere else has it led to the kind of violent and irresolvable impasse

Why do you talk of the Arabs like if they were one country? The peoples you refer too have countries who may have lost part of the territory, but Palestine is one country, one people, which hasn't lost part of his territory, it doesn't even have one.

Israeli soldiers may have used civilians on the enemy side as cover, and that, while despicable, does not indicate anything remotely approaching the kind of pathological hatred toward the Arabs that Arab targetting of their own people (!) does. Just what kind of diseased state of mind has permeated Arab culture to allow this, and what does it tell us about the Arab world's desire for peace?

Then please tell me what it does indicate, I can't wait to know! Maybe the Isareli nazis who use Palestinians as human shields do not hate them, but at the contrary love them!

And maybe we should also talk of where Israel built their military facilities, from where it realized artillery strikes into Lebanon, and which towns and villages in Israel had bunkers and which not?

Yes there is Jewish and Israeli terrorism as well, but I simply do not see the Jewish side undertaking this on anything approaching the scale, either numerically (some of the extremist settlers' movements are an exception, but they're small) or ideologically (the Israeli government does not fund the activities of these terrorists as Arab governments

1. What is the proportion of terrorists / Muslims and terrorists / Jews. Surely you know, if you make this affirmation

2. No, I guess the settlers ask the Palestinian neighbors they harrass on a daily basis for charity to fund the settlements.

tristan is a bold faced LIAR!!

He states: "The solution is simple: Israel giving back what it has stolen."

Preposterous! You are a hoaxster, tristan! A proponent of poopaganda! Smoke & mirrors have no effect here, so you and your lies can take a hike because the Jews have not stolen anything!!

Read it and weep.......

"There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now: There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!"

"There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the "Palestinian" people, Yasser Arafat, is EGYPTIAN! In short, the so-called Arab "Palestinians" are a manufactured people...a people with no history and no authenticity... whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!"

"Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 B.C.E. these first ancient Jews in the Land of Israel [Judea] were overrun and Israel's First Jewish Temple (on Jerusalem's Old City Temple Mount) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain. These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem upon the Temple Mount. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!"

....dry your eyes tristan...because there is more!

Read it and weep again.....

"Then in 70 C.E. (nearly 2000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population. Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many respects... yet thousands upon thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuild a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land."

"Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews [Jews], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward, neglected territory from the 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948. None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own... EXCEPT the Jews!"

"It must be noted that in 636 C.E., when the Arabs marauders came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews, they did not form any Arab nation there... and certainly not a "Palestinian" nation. They were simply "Arabs" who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called "Palestine!" And remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who "usurped" (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636 C.E. who overran and stole it from the Jews!"

"No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs --- and their Islam --- were even born! The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts... all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certain dwarfs any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Jews have. And if you want to talk religion, fine. God GAVE the Land of Israel to the Jewish People. And God does nothing by accident!"

Truth is what Jihad Watch is about - not your bullshit & LIES, tris.

I Stand 4 Israel!! Always Have - Always Will!

champ- we are friends, sorry for the sarcasm, but you gave me a link, which clearly states that 'if the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) lived in today's world he should be killed... for... according to this fool...'deceiving people about Jesus.

Only for him to stumble upon a problematic verse, which states God sent Jesus.... But you believe Jesus was God incarnate, don't you?

Then all the while you all hurl insults at Islam for some of it's laws. Who was the guy who wrote the website anyway? I'm sure he was a priest.

Templar- The allies had a right to dismantle the Ottoman Empire because of a war, four centuries earlier? That defies logic to me. Was the war continuing for four centuries?
Whatever you may claim, the chief benefactor of the demise of the Empire were the Jews who were given Palestine.
That suggests religious and historical motivations were behind your dismantling of the Ottoman Empire.
The Empire ruled Jerusalem. To get back Jerusalem you needed the destruction of the Ottoman's. What's so special about Jerusalem? Why not ask the Crusaders? Wasn't that a Holy and very religious War?

The way you speak of Israel is refreshing in that it is nowhere is partisan in nature as some of your comrades. I too agree that there are wrongs committed on both sides.
But if Israel seriously desires peace, then they would give Hamas ample opportunities to uphold a cease-fire. Not ignore one and then assassinate their people. How will that help Israel exactly?

Hamas offered it because Israel is going to new levels to deter rocket attacks, which are not killing anyone. Maybe one or two EVERY YEAR, but nowhere near as many an airstrike will kill in once instance.

These rocket launch sites are not inside a building, they are outdoors, so why are they bombing civilian areas? This leads me to suspect the Israeli's of a very sinister plot against the Palestinians.
The same could be said of the Palestinians but something more than pure hatred has to be driving them to commit suicide. No human will take his own life because he hated someone.

It's not coming from Islam, which is totally against suicide.

How can you say that the life of one terrorist, is worth risking the lives of countless men, woman and children, their homes and everything they own? No civilised nation should think like that, but rarely is it followed in Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. Why?
If you are better than they are, why are you doing virtually the same thing they are doing?

The Palestinians do not have a state, so there is no way they will be able to stop these terrorists.

Templar- there is and was Jewish terrorism. Go back to the days were Palestinians were the ruling authority and terrorism was rife among the Jews. There were terrorist groups much like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, only they were Jewish.

Champ- are you saying Palestinians never existed in Israel or Canaan, before Islam? Because I think you'll find they did. A genetic study I don't know when it was carried out- but here's the link-

http://www.rense.com/general48/Palestinians.pdf

found the Jews and Palestinians came from the same people, the Ancient Canaanites.

Look I respect you, but if you are going to use supporting evidence, you can do a lot better than a staunchly pro-Israel source. Go to the history books.

Hey thes - thanks for writing - and I don't recall reading that on that link, but if you say so....

Yes, I believe that Jesus is God Incarnate - God in the Flesh, because God's word supports this fact.

There was also a section on that website called: God's Final Warning to Islam.

Here it is:
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_main.html

As to your other question on Palestine I will have to look at the link you provided and get back to you shortly....

thes states: "Champ- are you saying Palestinians never existed in Israel or Canaan, before Islam? Because I think you'll find they did. A genetic study I don't know when it was carried out- but here's the link"

>>I read through the link and I did not find any contradictions between the information that you and I both provided - so our sources are offering the same history; but I did find an answer to your specific above question concerning the origin of the Palestinians. Read it all:

"PALESTINE?"

"The term "Palestine" came from the name that the conquering Roman Empire gave the ancient Land of Israel in an attempt to obliterate and de-legitimize the Jewish presence in the Holy Land."

"The name "Palestine" was invented in the year 135 C.E., before it was known as Judea, which was the southern kingdom of ancient Israel. The Roman Procurator in charge of the Judean-Israel territories was so angry at the Jews for revolting that he called for his historians and asked them who were the worst enemies of the Jews in their past history. The scribes said, "the Philistines." Thus, the Procurator declared that Land of Israel would from then forward be called "Philistia" [further bastardized into "Palaistina"] to dishonor the Jews and obliterate their history. Hence the name "Palestine."

"One more thing. Very often one hears the revisionists and propagandists finding ancient historical links between the "Philistines" ("Invaders" in Hebrew) and the Arab "Palestinians." There is no truth to this claim! The Philistines were one of a number of Sea Peoples who reached the eastern Mediterranean region approximately 1250-1100 B.C.E. They were actually an amalgamation of various ethnic groups, primarily of Aegean and south-east European origin [Greece, Crete and Western Turkey] and they died out over 2500 years ago!"

"Those Philistines were not Arab... and neither was Goliath! The Arabs of "Palestine" are just that... Arabs! And these Arabs of "Palestine" have about as much historical roots to the ancient Philistines as Yasser Arafat has to the Eskimos!"

"The ancient, indigenous inhabitants of Palestine are long perished from the earth. Canaanites, Phoencians, and then Philistines, all were dominated by the Israelites before 1060 B.C.E. Most of these cultural identities dissolved completely by the neo-Babylonian age, or, the 6th century B.C.E. Arabs weren’t even in Palestine until the mid-7th century C.E., over a thousand years later, after Palestine’s 1,300-year Jewish history. Arabs later living in Palestine never developed themselves or the land, but remained nomadic and quasi-primitive."

"Even the word "Palestine" has no meaning in Arabic - every word in Arabic has some meaning deriving from the Koran, but the word "Palestine" does not. Even the term "Palestinian people" is rather ironic since the letter "P" is non-existent in the Arab language. If anything, the name "Palestine" was associated with Jews."

"In the years leading up to the rebirth of Israel in 1948, those who spoke of "Palestinians" were nearly always referring to the region's Jewish residents."

Take care.

He states: "The solution is simple: Israel giving back what it has stolen."

Preposterous! You are a hoaxster, tristan! A proponent of poopaganda! Smoke & mirrors have no effect here, so you and your lies can take a hike because the Jews have not stolen anything!!

Calm down, girl. It seems your are losing your calm, and it isn't proper of a champ like yourself. First of all, please stop referring to the zionists as the "Jews", because you are insulting all the Jews who don't accept what Israel is doing in their name. Do you understand? Yes cham, the zionists have stolen. They steal land, are stealing land, and it's likely they continue as long as their American mascots keep filling their unfathomable begging bowl.

When you expulse the legitimate inhabitants of a territory, or make their life there so unbearable they have no other way to leave, so you can create a Lebensraum for the crazed settlers to live their demented dream of Eretz Israel. They steal not only territory, but also water, so that settlers bath in pools while Palestinians have barely enough water to satisfy their basic needs. They stole the compensations from Germany destinated to the Holocaust survivors so that they are treated like trash in the very country that is supposed to care for them. Do you understand what I say, champ?

Read it and weep

If I weep, it will be from hilarity!

I mean, not only you accuse of lying and don't even say what the lie was, but you post a text to debunk an argument I never made! So I'm supposed to weep about... what!?

But what do I care, champ, when Palestinians started to feel Palestinians, or how much time a handful of Jews have been living in Palestine, when during centuries they were the minority compared to Palestinian Arabs?? What do I care when Israel started being a nation, and especially what does it have to do with anything?? I mean, what is the point you are trying to make??

Wait, this just look too stupid, but... Maybe you believe Jews were the majority in Palestine, and not Arabs??

The point, champ, is that right now, Palestinians feel Palestinian. They feel they are nation. Do you get it?

And I see you still didn't say if the Americans of European descent should go from a land that never belong to them, because the Native Americans had been living there for much more time than them!

Now champ, I think I will look at that text after all!

"There is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now: There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world!"

FALSE!

The term "Palestine" come from the term Philistins, which is a people that lived on (part of?) wat is now the Holy Land, before they were exterminated by the ancient Hebrews. So there was a "Palestinian" civilization, only it was not Arab.

"There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language.

FALSE!

You should really find other sources, champ. pro-Israelis have never been to bright, but hell, this one is really stupid.

First who said a nation needed a culture, and especially a language to be considered as such? All the South American nations have the same language, and many share a same culture, yet they are considered as nation not only by the international community, but also by their inhabitants themselves. So if Palestinians consider themselves a nation and if the international community recognizes a Palestinian people, they are nation, no matter what a handful of pro-Israelis clowns say or write.

Champ... the Jews who emigrated to Palestine... What was their nationality? Did they have a same culture, a same language? Did they have all Jewish sounding names? Were all their ancestors Jewish, or did they mix with people of the country they established themselves in during the diaspora? Had they ever been to Israel??

Champ... the neo-nazis caught in Israel... were they Jewish??

Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the Arabs is preposterous!"

One of the tactics Israel apologists frequently use is to invent claims no one ever made, and then debunk them. Here it is the case. Now champ, I may be mistake, but no one ever said "the Jews appeared from nowhere". Rather the zionists appeared from nowhere. No one is negating there were Jews living in Palestine before the creation of Israel.

Now the second article say more or less the same nonsense than the first, but this is particularly interesting:

If anything, it was the Arabs in 636 C.E. who overran and stole it from the Jews!"

What!? But wasn't it the Romans who destroyed the Temple and drove the Jews out of Palestine??

Was it the Arabs or the Romans!? The writer needs to make up his mind!

Now there is something troubling. If Jews had a continued presence on Palestine since "times immemorial", why was it? Because the Arabs let them stay! Yes, there have been persecutions, but the fact is Jews remained in Palestine, unlike Jews in other parts of the world who were exterminated and driven out, sometimes finding a new home in Muslim countries! Do you realize? The zionists say the continued presence of Jews in Palestine is a valid reason to justify the existence of the state of Israel, and it is thanks to the Arabs this continued presence could be maintained!

Now champ, what if we examnine what the Zionist leaders said about all this? Of course, that only some of many:

"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

After paying a visit to Palestine in 1891, the Hebrew essayist Achad Ha-Am commented: " Abroad we are accustomed to believe that Israel is almost empty; nothing is grown here and that whoever wishes to buy land could come here and buy what his heart desires. In reality, the situation is not like this. Throughout the country it is difficult to find cultivable land which is not already cultivated."

Vladimir Jabotinsky (the founder and advocate of the Zionist terrorist organizations): "Has any People ever been seen to give up their territory of their own free will? In the same way, the Arabs of Palestine will not renounce their sovereignty without violence." Quoted by Maxime Rodinson in Peuple Juif ou Problem Juif. (Jewish People or Jewish Problem).

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): " If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

And finally, you can be for whatever you want, champ, I don't give a crap. This is just as impressing as a nazi saying "I stand 4 Hitler". He could repeat it over and over again, but would I care? No. The only doubt that remains is whether you support Israel out of ignorance, idiocy, or with full knowledge of facts. That is, Israel being founded for only one ethnicity, which is something unseen in a civilized country. A country born from terror, whose founders were terrorists or at best racists, the same founders who tried to form an alliance with the Axis during WW2 hoping Hitler would spare enough Jews to form the state of Israel, the same founders who killed civilians just as Palestinian terrorists do today, the same founders who bombed the King David Hotel killing not only British officials, but also civilians including nurses and even Jews (an act who is praised each year by Netanyahu, while he criticizes Palestinian terrorism). The same country that has refused to sign a peace with the Arabs because a just peace is unacceptable for her, even tough as the Arabs made less and less demands as they years passed. The same country who was allied with Apartheid South Africa (and the Israeli security establishment said that without such an alliance Israel wouldn't have survived), the same country who allows crazed fascists to occupy robben land and provoke, harrass, and kill their Palestinian neighbors, the same state that make extensive use of human shields including children (they even openly made a law to allow it), make use of her own Arab citizens as human shields using their villages to realize artillery strikes and building military facilities in them, discriminates them, maims, kill, or imprisons innocent civilians, also including children, under "administrative detention" (This trash made in sort Palestinian kids could be imprisoned like adults by considering a Palestinian is adult when he is 14 years old when in Israel the age is 18), and many other things that are well known to anyone who is not a brainwashed fool who believes everything biased sites shove down their throat.

Saracen:

Thankyou for your response. I find your reasonable tone conducive to understanding, unlike Tristan’s so I hope my answers are helpful.

You said:

“The allies had a right to dismantle the Ottoman Empire because of a war, four centuries earlier? That defies logic to me. Was the war continuing for four centuries?"

Actually you’re right, LOL! I was obviously venting when I wrote this, but your point is quite valid so I’ll concede that one to you.

But you really are entirely misreading the role of religious motivations in Allied policy on the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps the Jews were the major beneficiary of that policy (I’d question how you can know that since, many other national movements benefited from it, especially those in the Balkans) but I can say without doubt that this was a matter of indifference for the Allies. Europe was extremely anti-Semitic at that time (as it’s becoming today) and any thought for the Jews was an afterthought. They certainly did not have any such thing in mind in their policies before, during or after the war.

In any case, the Allies dismantled the Ottoman Empire so that the nations that had been part of it could develop their cultures autonomously within their own sovereign states. It was in deference to nationalism, not to religion.

Whatever the ideas of the Crusaders were (7, 8 or 9 centuries earlier), such ideas were not relevant to twentieth century Europeans whatsoever. The Enlightenment (17th and 18th centuries), and the Renaissance before it (13th, 14th and 15th centuries) eliminated those kinds of ideas from European culture entirely. There remained some of this idea of "Holy War" in Russia throughout the Czarist period, but that country is on the fringes of Europe both culturally and geographically. And the American view of things at that time was even more secular than that of Europe.

The missile attacks on Israel have been going on more or less constantly since 2000, and increased when Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005, so I’m not sure what offer of a cease fire you are referring to. Please explain. Are talking about al-Rantassi’s offer of a Hundna? If so you’re saying that Israel should accept a ten year reprieve (at most) so that Hamas can regroup and concentrate its forces in order to resume its pathological campaign to destroy it with renewed force. That is absurd!

I note as well that you are misrepresenting the moral equation in the question of civilian losses. It is not “one terrorist” in exchange for the lives of countless men, woman and children, their homes and everything they own” There are also the lives of Israeli victims of the missile attacks to consider and this is what the Israeli government must consider above all. There have been many Israeli deaths, and extensive property and psychological damage, especially in Sderot.

You mention Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine in one breath, as if these were all one and the same conflict. The circumstances in each are quite distinct. I have consistently maintained, both before that war began and since, that this was the wrong thing for the U.S. to do, but even there, the U.S. forces have mostly fought a very limited war with narrow rules of engagement and have tried to win the Iraqi people over to their objectives by persuasion, reason and political action, not without some disastrous incidents though, I’ll grant you, but at least not with the kind of repression that preceded them. The many civilians that have died there are a tragedy - and yes, in some cases, a crime - but its likely that just as many people if not more would have died just from Saddam's brutality alone if he had remained in power. Turning to Afghanistan, if you look at the methods of NATO forces there, especially the Canadians and the Dutch, you see even more caution and restraint. Why is it okay for Muslims like the Taliban to commit the most horrendous crimes against other Muslims and the Muslim world raises scarcely a word, but if non-Muslims try to put a stop to it they are denounced by crowds by indignant Muslims as invaders, and when an accidental death occurs because of enemy action or a mistake in the fog of war, the population gets up in arms about it? It’s not the “up arms part” that I dispute, it’s the clear double standard, that demonstrates a clear preference for Islamist brutality (or at least a willingness to extend a favourable benefit of the doubt to it) over non-Muslim attempts to institute a rule of law in which the country can develop its cultural, economic, social and religious life guided by something other than fear and coercion.

Finally, Saracen, the Palestinians do not yet have a fully fledged state, but they do have an autonomous government with its own security forces - a government which the “Palestinian” people have chosen to hand over to Hamas, so they are quite culpable for the violence that their “authorities” are conducting against Israel.

Tristan:

I regret that I did not answer you earlier, but I have had some important things to do instead. I have to say that your belligerent tone guarantees that you will have no effect in this forum. I was tempted to ignore your rant but I’ve decided to post this solely to demostrate that your efforts here have been futile. Many of your statements about Israel (and so much else) are absolutely grotesque attempts to distort reality to suit an agenda that is absolutely and irredeemably evil. This will be my last post on this thread in response to you, so you can have the last word, as I suspect you will, but please know that no one cares what you say.

Your reference to Israel as a state set up for a particular “ethnic group” demonstrates a psychotic loss of touch with reality. Ethnic group? What is the ethnic group that a nation of immigrants from all over Europe, Asia and Africa, blacks, whites and orientals, speaking different languages and with stunningly various cultures? How are these people all of “one ethnic group”? You even say this to Champ at one point in your argument with her. So how can you now come out and say that Israel was founded for “one ethnic group“? I can think of various Arab states that exist for one ethnic group. Saudi Arabia, where only Arab Muslims are allowed the full rights of citizens - such as they are in that backward anachronism - is one such state. But you won‘t mention that! Only Israel, which has given the full rights of citizenship to its millions of Arab inhabitants, such that they have more freedom and rights than they would in any Arab state, and are represented in the government at the cabinet level, deserves to be denounced this say. A Grade 3 student could recognize the ugly travesty of your statement about this.

On the point regarding numbers of Jewish terrorists as opposed to the number of Palestinian/Muslim terrorist, I really don't have the specifics, and do not have the inclination to try to find them anywhere, so I'll grant that point to you. What I can tell you, and this is a measure of the sheer evil of the Islamist terror that you would no doubt either downplay or justify, is that the activities of these Jewish terrorists do not have links to a worldwide network of terrorist organizations around the world as Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations do.

You sneeringly demand to know how a Christian can advocate total war and accuse me of hypocracy over it. I ask of you, in regard to Islamist terrorism, the same question because you’re in a contradiction at least as bad as mine. In a declared war, conducted by a legitimate state (even the “total war” waged by Westerners on occasion in the last century) military personnel operate according to rules of engagement, people on both sides have a pretty good idea what kind of tactics will be used, there is accountability in law for atrocities, and non-combatants, knowing what might come (and often being warned about it ahead of time by the enemy) can at least prepare for what might heppen, taking measures to safeguard life and limb. This shows greater respect for the preservation of civilian life than the kind of deliberate and exclusive targeting of civilians (AS civilians!) in the sneak attacks on 9-11, in Paris, London, Madrid (to mention only some of the most memorable incidents) carried out by terrorist bottom feeders who presume to place themselves outside of all law and answer to no one in authority in any sovereign government, and unlike most professional soldiers, offer no mercy to anyone. Many Muslims, especially in Palestine, dance in the streets for joy when they carry out their attacks, and you defend these people as “freedom fighters“.

Well now you have my answer. Please provide your own. How can the followers of what we’re always being told is a “Religion of Peace”, a religion that constantly refers to God as “the Compassionate One”, be so bereft of compassion and behave so mercilessly? War is always ugly and immoral. But Islamist and Palestinian terrorists have been provoking Israel, and more recently the West, relentlessly for decades. And yes we have turned the other cheek a great deal. But turning the other cheek does not have to mean letting a pathologically hateful enemy destroy you.

Why do I not react when Israel sells weapons to China? Perhaps it’s the “turning the other cheek” that you you perversely try to use as a weapon. Note this well: we’ve turned the other cheek to Muslims in the West a great deal as well (as Israel, to its great credit, has), welcoming them into our countries, granting the full rights of citizenship and all the benefits of our democratic freedom, allowing, and sometimes funding, the building of mosques and other institutions and generally turning a blind eye to people whose favourite words are phrases like “Death to America”, “To Hell with the West“, “Behead the Pope“, etc, etc, etc. So don’t think that Israel’s behaviour is the worst of what we have to put up with. More than that, Westerners‘ hard earned tax dollars are sent by the millions to backward Islamic countries in the Third World every year. You, you ungrateful wretch, bite the hand that feeds you . Keep doing that, and you may find that it’s withdrawn some day.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070921/FOREIGN/109210080/1001

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/02/28/sudan.denmark.ap/index.html

Even those, I should point out, who historically have been the most open to Islam in the West are beginning to reconsider:

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/02/socialists-warning-to-hizb-ut-tahrir.html#readfurther

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-should-they-be-here.html#readfurther

You say that Israel “stole” the land from the Palestinians. Most of what Champ says, as far as I know about it is correct. There never was an Arab speaking entity known as Palestinian or self-identifying with that land, prior to the Jewish immigration of the 19th and 20th century when, suddenly, the Arabs became keenly interested in it (primarily to frustrate the Jews I can‘t help suspect), and what few real Arabs actually were there lived alongside peoples who were descended from Greeks, Assyrians, Phoenicians and many others who had been there earlier. That these inhabitants were Arabic speaking was solely due to the imposition of the Arabic language and culture by the Arab conquerors of the 7th and 8th centuries, but this does not make them Arabs. They had there own histories and cultures. Furthermore, the Arab presence there, linguistic and otherwise, was solely the result of conquest - or, to use your word, "theft". Still, everyone adjusted to this reality when it occurred, just as many other peoples around the world, not just the Palestinians you exploit in propagandizing us, have lost part - and yes even all - of their land, and have adjusted and carried on. But these Arab Muslims, who suddenly latched onto this identity as “Palestinians” in the 1960s, and the entire Arab world that constantly puts them up to it, stubbornly refuse to be flexible in the other direction now that the Jews have taken up residency in the area even though it was otherwise sparsely populated before their arrival and had no significant national life or identity. They continue to spread this canard that the Jews “stole” the land. In some cases they may have - the activities of Jewish terrorist gangs like Irgun is a matter of record - but in fact, they bought much of it, and much of the rest was abandoned by the Arabs, at the insistence of the invading Arab militaries during the Israeli War of Independence. People rarely try to turn back the clock and reverse centuries of history but if today a few are beginning to contemplate this for the Holy Land it is only because the pan-Arabist and Islamist tendency to want to stamp out every other culture and social movement that exists where it establishes itself is beginning to become clear to the world. They are making it clear that they are impossible to live with and a menace to the peace of the world.

The fact that criminal behaviour occurs in the police or the military (such as use of “human shields”) does not negate the reality that a state is a democracy. Such abuses happen in any country, including democracies - just far more so in non-democracies. Israel IS a democracy. The millions of Arabs enjoying full human and political rights unheard of in any Arab country can, like other Israeli citizens, use their political influence to bring those soldiers to justice. Many Jewish human rights organizations and activists in Israel, in solitarity with Israeli Arabs, work to do just that. If they are smart about their methods they should be able to bring this about or at least continue to erode this practice. By contrast, in any Arab country, if they complained about the police or military, they’d risk death. Israel, for all its faults, sins and shortcomings stands head and shoulders above all of them.

So congratulations on your deep alliance with the forces of evil; you have distinguished yourself as a typical Islamist loudmouth and bully. Unlike Saracen, you don't have the good sense to recognize and respect those who might be persuaded by your use of good arguments and to try to appeal to your opponents on the basis of common ground. Rather than searching for friends, you prefer to declare the whole world your enemy. Again, typical of an Islamist. You are rude, caustic, toxic, overbearing, and everybody can see through your bluster to recognize that you are a hollow man! Pigs be upon you and don’t bother us here anymore!

Bravo, Templar!! ...and thanks! :-)

I was tempted to ignore your rant but I’ve decided to post this solely to demostrate that your efforts here have been futile. Many of your statements about Israel (and so much else) are absolutely grotesque attempts to distort reality to suit an agenda that is absolutely and irredeemably evil. This will be my last post on this thread in response to you, so you can have the last word, as I suspect you will, but please know that no one cares what you say.

If no one cares about what I say, then why do you answer?? Isn't it stupid to answer to someone whose posts you know are false and you don't care about them?? Or maybe you know I'm right and this is nothing but one more pathetic attempt at discrediting me instead of what I say?? Can't you see the only grotesque and futile is to say my posts are false and not worth answering while at the same time answering them, because you know my arguments are true?

And no offence man, but someone called "templar" begins talking about an "evil" agenda looking closely like some religious nutter make any comments he makes about other's posts rather worthless.

Your reference to Israel as a state set up for a particular “ethnic group” demonstrates a psychotic loss of touch with reality.

Funny, you talk about agressiveness and then you say I am "psychotic". Furthers helps determining how much relevance your opinions have. No, the only one who is away from reality is you, and this is not automtatically because you are deranged, but maybe just because you are one more of the useful idiots who talk about Israel without having an idea of what they talk about. It's not me who say Israel is set up for a particular ethnic group. It's the Israelis! Israel is defined as a state for the Jewish people! It was them who defined it so, and you say *I* suffer of loss of touch with reality??

Ethnic group? What is the ethnic group that a nation of immigrants from all over Europe, Asia and Africa, blacks, whites and orientals, speaking different languages and with stunningly various cultures? How are these people all of “one ethnic group”?

You are only confirming what I said. Are you now saying the Jews are not an ethnic group??

You even say this to Champ at one point in your argument with her. So how can you now come out and say that Israel was founded for “one ethnic group“?

Say what? I think you are confused about what have been said.

I can think of various Arab states that exist for one ethnic group. Saudi Arabia, where only Arab Muslims are allowed the full rights of citizens - such as they are in that backward anachronism - is one such state. But you won‘t mention that! Only Israel, which has given the full rights of citizenship to its millions of Arab inhabitants, such that they have more freedom and rights than they would in any Arab state, and are represented in the government at the cabinet level, deserves to be denounced this say. A Grade 3 student could recognize the ugly travesty of your statement about this.

Grade 3 student? An Jewish Grade 3 student, or an Arab grade 3 student, the same students who are discriminated against in the Israeli paradise??

Btw we are talking about Israel, not the Arab states. Trying to deflect the conversation is an usual tactic used by pro-Israelis when they are losing the debate.

What I can tell you, and this is a measure of the sheer evil of the Islamist terror that you would no doubt either downplay or justify, is that the activities of these Jewish terrorists do not have links to a worldwide network of terrorist organizations around the world as Hamas and other Islamic terrorist organizations do.

No they just have links to networks in Palestine, which makes obviously a great difference. Just as obvious as the fact you would no doubt either downplay or justify the Zionist terrorism.

Oh, and please stop using the term "Jewish terrorism", okay? Funny how we are the antisemites when it is you who insult them by using a term that implies the terrorism emanates, not from a minority of crazed fascists, but from the Jewish people as a whole.

You sneeringly demand to know how a Christian can advocate total war and accuse me of hypocracy over it. I ask of you, in regard to Islamist terrorism, the same question because you’re in a contradiction at least as bad as mine.

I'm not Muslim and didn't enter in any contradicion. I think you are confused again.

In a declared war, conducted by a legitimate state (even the “total war” waged by Westerners on occasion in the last century) military personnel operate according to rules of engagement, people on both sides have a pretty good idea what kind of tactics will be used, there is accountability in law for atrocities

What accountability? The same accountability according to which Israeli soldiers are never punished for their crimes?? The same accountability according to which an Israeli subhuman trash that killed a 13 years old Palestinian girl was rewarded after the killing??

non-combatants, knowing what might come (and often being warned about it ahead of time by the enemy) can at least prepare for what might heppen, taking measures to safeguard life and limb. This shows greater respect for the preservation of civilian life

Like it happened in Lebanon, when Israel bombed the roads before dropping leftlets asking the civilians to escape?? Or when they dropped thousands of cluster bombs, that almost exclusively affect children, in the last hours of the war, when they knew there would be a truce? Like it happens when the human trash you defend kill children for throwing stones, or even for not doing anything at all?? What kinds of rules of war are you talking about?

Many Muslims, especially in Palestine, dance in the streets for joy when they carry out their attacks

Do they prey at Baruch's grave also??

and you defend these people as “freedom fighters“

I never did that, and if I did, I ask you to quote the exact setence. I guess you are really the one who needs a psy.

Well now you have my answer. Please provide your own. How can the followers of what we’re always being told is a “Religion of Peace”, a religion that constantly refers to God as “the Compassionate One”, be so bereft of compassion and behave so mercilessly? War is always ugly and immoral. But Islamist and Palestinian terrorists have been provoking Israel, and more recently the West, relentlessly for decades. And yes we have turned the other cheek a great deal.

But turning the other cheek does not have to mean letting a pathologically hateful enemy destroy you.

That means what it means, and if you and others distort it to suit your own "agendas" (just like Christians did in the past), that's your business.

Why do I not react when Israel sells weapons to China? Perhaps it’s the “turning the other cheek” that you you perversely try to use as a weapon. Note this well: we’ve turned the other cheek to Muslims in the West a great deal as well (as Israel, to its great credit, has), welcoming them into our countries, granting the full rights of citizenship and all the benefits of our democratic freedom, allowing, and sometimes funding, the building of mosques and other institutions

How generous! So we in the West have welcomed Muslim immigrants just because we are so nice. Nothing to do with the need of a labor force to improve our countries' economy!

A nice try to justify the fact that Israel's useful idiots don't give a crap when the country that owes them her very existence sells weapons to US' ennemies, so that American money may have funded weapons used to kill American soldiers!

But America has an habit of poorly choosing her allies, right? We all know what happened in Afghanistan with Bin Laden and the Talibans...

and generally turning a blind eye to people whose favourite words are phrases like “Death to America”, “To Hell with the West“, “Behead the Pope“, etc, etc, etc. So don’t think that Israel’s behaviour is the worst of what we have to put up with. More than that, Westerners‘ hard earned tax dollars are sent by the millions to backward Islamic countries in the Third World every year.

You, you ungrateful wretch, bite the hand that feeds you . Keep doing that, and you may find that it’s withdrawn some day.

Now that same guy who complained about my "agressive" posts call me wretch and go on with his deranged ramblings about me being a Muslim. No further comments needed. The rest is more non-sense without any proof that has already ben refuted, but it is quite interesting that you recognize some of the land was "stolen" and "much" was bought. So you recognize some have been stolen, and you aren't even able to affirm the majority was bought legally! Now listen, my gullible friend: why do you keep repeating all this crap about who was there when, when I already said it doesn't matter to anyone?? That it doesn't matter when the Palestinian nationality began to form because it exists right now and period??

The fact that criminal behaviour occurs in the police or the military (such as use of “human shields”) does not negate the reality that a state is a democracy. Such abuses happen in any country, including democracies

No, crackpot, it doesn't. I am Spanish, and we had ETA terrorism for decades. Yet we never killed pro-terrorist youths who threw Molotov cocktels at the police, never imprisoned them in military prisons, putting them on trial like adults, never bombed houses because they belonged to the family of the terrorists, never killed any innocent civilian, and never used one as a human shield, so stop pretending your degenerated country, the same country that has elected a war criminal as Prime Minister, the same country that stands idle while a soldiers is rewarded for killing a child, has anything to do with something remotely democratic.

So congratulations on your deep alliance with the forces of evil

Look at this, crackpot:

http://www.moqawama.org/english/__print.php?filename=20071029092051917

Hey, btw, do you know some of Israel's most faithful allies are actually antisemites??

Now champ, it seems templar hasn't lived up to my expectations. Guess is your turn! I have debunked the article you so much insited me to read and mentioned all the wonderful things the first democracy for Israel do without anyone proving I was lying. Now let's see if you are useful for something more than copypasting articles and saying how great the crackpot above is. ;)

PS: Hey templar, it took you 1h30 to answer my post??

"Alliance with the forces of evil" ROFL. Hey, don't miss church because you have to answer to my posts. Listen to your bishop and keep reading your bible, it's always more reconforting to be a brainwashed nut like yourself than using your brain to think critically.

Hi Templar -

If you're still reading this thread, then you really ought to check out another thread that tristan ran aground here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020301.php

Excerpt from that thread shows the same invective and hate filled comments:

>>tristan states:

"Except no Germans are claiming the Italian territory back, no Germans have been displaced from their land, and finally, no one in the world recognizes this territory as German. That would be the big differences. Oh, and the fact that Italy have committed slightly less violations of the human rights than Israel.

Now this is rather interesting, since at the same time you mention "how many" concessions Israel granted to Arabs, you pretend Israel doesn't have to give back what it has stolen, but you pretend Arabs should accept peace and leave to Israel what it has stolen from them?

You mention peace treaties proposal by Israel, but you don't mention the Arab proposal, consisting in unilateral recognition of Israel against the devolution of the Arab land occupied illegally by Israel?

Why would Israel make "generous proposals" and not accept the same generous proposals from Arabs? Israel is bigger than it was in 1948. You pretend it proposed a honest peace treaty in 1949, but now that Israel's situation is even better than in 1948, it would refuse to keep the Palestinian territory she conquerred until 1967, to which the Arabs have renounced, wanting, at the contrary, more?

You pretend Israel wants peace when it demands to Palestinians that idiocy about recognizing Isrel's "right to exist", furthermore the right to exist as a *Jewish state*, which means the ultimate humillation for them and is contrary to all possible international rules? Recognizing not only they were right to be disposessed from their land, but also recognizing the supremacy of an ethnicity over any else including their own? What kind of people would accept this kind of demand, especially when Israel intentionally got it off her sleeve when she saw Arabs were dangerously close to accepting peace? What kind of aberration is that? Did the US demand from Russia the right to exist as a capitalist state??? Were the native Americans asked to recognize the US' right to exist??? No, what you ask in these cases is simply peace, and you don't give a crap if the other recognizes you or not.

You see, accepting the Arab proposal is out of question for Israel, just as is accepting any proposal, unless Palestinians are asked to literally take their pants down. A just peace (one that would end the conflict) would mean for Israel to dismantle the illegal settlements, the ones where the Zionist version of Jihadists live, nutters who repeat over and over again their right to live on "Judea" and "Samaria", all this while they harrass their Palestinian neighbors, rolling over them or stabbing their kids to death under the comprensive eye of the IDF. For Israel to get these nutcases out of there would mean having them in Israel. Having them in Israel would perhaps mean terrorism like in the old days of the Mandate, when zionists were killing civilians with the same enthusiasm than today Palestinian terrorists, before delegating part of the job to the army. Because for this fascist trash would mean for Israel's rulers the risk of suffering the same fate as Isaac Rabin.

But anyway, who would believe anything truly good could come from a pseudo-democratic state who tortures, invades, occupies, steals, kills, imprisons ever children of low age or use them as human shields?"

Posted by: Tristan at March 15, 2008 8:54 PM

>>Hugh responds:

"The voice of illogic, fantasy, and underneath it all, hysterical hate, is on display in the posting above. Take a good look. It will remain up, on permanent exhibit."

Posted by: Hugh at March 15, 2008 9:43 PM

Apparently, the answer is no - you keep copypasting, maybe because you are too stupid to answer yourself.

AND TRISTAN RESPONDS TO HUGH XD

"That's truly sad. I thought we could have a reasonable debate, but I guess I overestimated you. Indeed, the fault is not as much yours as it is mine. I guess that is what comes from writing in a site in which 99,9% of the posters agree with your point of view. You come to believe that what is said here is the absolute truth, while anything that differs is obviously illogic, false and, of course, hateful or antisemitic (never forget this canard!).

I answered. I contested your points with arguments based in facts, facts you haven't challenged because you were not able to, so the only thing you could do was to try to discredit the writer. I may be hateful, hysterical, and illogical, but the facts are out there for everyone to see! Look for them, Hugh; and if you (or anyone else) experiences difficulties in this task, I shall help you. Begin with the kids jailed or used as human shields.

Oh, almost forgot: before some moron out there accuse me of being an apologist of terrorism, I would like to make clear that I despise Hamas, and all the Palestinian losers who attack innocent civilians."

You are so funny, champ.

Btw, I looked, but I didn't see it on exhibit!

"Btw, I looked, but I didn't see it on exhibit!"

OH - and I'm the stupid one - guess you'll be apologizing for that one won't you?

Apoligizing!? Apoligizing for what, champ!!??

Btw I'm the bonehead??

Champ, sorry to insist, but are you going to answer me with something you wrote yourself, or not?

All the things I've written, you can prove they are lies, or not?

Hey btw champ... don't tell me you are searching my name just to find the posts I've written, right??

tristan the Islamist Hate Whore:

>>No, I haven't forgotten.

Were were you then?? Were was your indignation when the warlords were ruling Somalia and made it far worse for Somnalis than the ICU???

Any ruthless totalitarian system can claim credit for imposing order over anarchy and for bringing unity to a divided nation. Hitler's Nazis did too, by erasing the historic German states and Nazifying Germany completely. But always the question is, at what price comes order?

Oh, yes, I think the ICU were worse than the nazis. Actually I believe they had began to buy gas chambers for Christians and Jews.

If you think that living under the Islamic law of Sharia is such a good thing, you have your choice of dozens of Muslim shitholes

Where did I say sharia law was good, genius??? The question I would love to have answered is, what is best? A state of anarchy where no one besides the warlords could consider himself safe??? Or an Islamic state where the terrible price to pay is the incitation to wear a headscarve, the prohibition to see soccer matches and take stimulants??? Which one is best?

Where was all of you' concern when the warlords were ruling? Where did your concern for veiled women come from when these women were being raped in the warlord era??? Why did the concern of the world for Somalia only come when the Islamists gained power???

The current transition government is the same government who was unable to extend its authority over all of Somalia in the warlords rule. There are doubts as to whether it will keep its present authority when the Ethiopians are gone. Time will tell.

And from now on, use the tools the Muslims came up with, like tents and camels. Don't come here and use the tools developed by YOUR WESTERN SUPERIORS, like the Internet, to trash the Western democratic philosophy that made the invention of the Internet possible. Don't even drive a car anymore because Muslims didn't even know the oil was lying beneath their feet until the British found it and then the Muslims stole (I mean "nationalized") it away from them.

ROFL What a piece of racist trash! I always said Islamophobia is the PC form of racism, and you confirmed it. Are you aware you just talked like someone racist towards Arabs, with all your allusions to "tents" and "camels"? Arabs are only 20% of Muslims, now who do you think have "tents", "camels", and "oil"??? You are part of the same bunch of clowns who talk highly of the fake "Judeo-Christian" values who do not exist, of the "Western", "Christian" world while they forget about all the Christian countries that are in the Third-World, as backwards as the Muslim ones.

All I can add is this: shove your ridiculous ravings about the West up your ass with my compliments!

BTW, I'm westerner, you stupid racist turd.

Posted by: Tristan at January 1, 2007 5:42 PM

_________________________________________________

>>An half-illiterate clown wrote this:

The crusades had the right idea stop this vile evil at its source.Shame they didnt eridacate it completly.We insult the memory of those brave crusaders by letting this evil dwell amongst us

This is not the first time a wingnut write this, but this kind of revisionism, the one who depicts crusaders as brave warriors being the first defenders of the "Judeo-Christian" civilization against Islam are really the tards among the tards. Among other things, they forget that these crusaders slaughtered entire cities in their way to Jerusalem, even in some cases cooking and eating their inhabitants, that once in the city they locked the Jews inside the synagogue and burned it, that they tortured the Orthodox Christians to make them revelate where the Holy Cross was hidden, and that one of the crusades was directed against fellow Christians!

The morons dwell among us...

Posted by: Tristan at January 1, 2007 6:50 PM

__________________________________________________

>>I have always wondered why the Yanks, who were thesmelves immigrant - and bloody ones at it - thought it was their right to decide who could come to a land that was not theirs to begin with... And as for Backwardistan, well... a guy from a countries who could as well be called "cow-boy land" can hardly consider himself superior!

Posted by: Tristan at January 3, 2007 4:37 PM

__________________________________________________

>>"islam will perish from the face of the Earth."

That seems unlikely, with Islam being the fastest-growing religion and all :D

The reign of Satan is near.

Posted by: Tristan at January 4, 2007 7:33 PM

I'll let your own comments answer your doltish questions of me....later

Hi Champ:

Thanks for the info. I must say I'm surprized: I really didn't expect to find any activity here (just thought I'd check) but what a surprize to see how much has happened!

I do think its best to let this thread die, though. I think your advice was sound when you cautioned others not to feed the troll. Although I admire his efforts to communicate in what is for him - as a Spaniard - a second language, I have to note that the increasing number of grammatical errors that Tristan has made in these most recent posts of his indicate that he's gradually being worn down and becoming increasingly desparate. Best, I think, to leave him to stew in his own juices.

Of course I know how great the temptation is to keep poking at him. I find certain things about him quite funny. Notice that he can't count or do the simplest Math: it took me far longer than 1h30 to answer him! Language (or worse yet, simple vocabulary) seems to have a hypnotic - or even magical - effect on him: he can't place my response to his reference to cultural identity simply because he used, at one point in his argument with you, the words "one ethnicity", whereas you invoked the term "ethnic group", the expression that I erroneously quoted. Worse, he gets so confused that he ends up talking in circles and failing to recognize the difference between "fact" and his own poorly thought out (considering the evidence he adduces) opinion of things.

Last but not least, I should point out that his kind is indestructible; you'll never convince him. The idea that he seems to hold that anyone who could come to different conlcusions than he has must be "brainwashed" is strikingly similar to McCarthy era hysteria about "communist infiltration" or to Stalinist, Nazi or Fascist denunciations of thought crime. You'll never be able to reason with someone caught in that kind of closed, circular system of thought. Moreover, based on what I read repeatedly in his remarks, I'd venture a guess he's acting out some unconscious reaction to something, perhaps a latent or unconscious, frustrated adolescent rebellion, maybe even something "oedipal". I find his obssessive focus on certain recurring themes, such as religious hypocracy, interesting in this regard. In particular, I find this sarcastic little outburst most intriguing: "Listen to your bishop and keep reading your bible, it's always more reconforting [sic] to be a brainwashed nut like yourself than using your brain to think critically." There's something familiar about some of that turn of phrase and the terminolgy employed in it. It's the sort of thing I'd expect to hear only from someone like a seminary drop or a burnt out, washed up former monastic type like Karen Hughes - or a failed wannabe. (But then again, maybe I give him far too much credit. He may simply be crazy! - LOL.)

Whether I'm right about any of this, or abusrdly wrong, I'm certain that he's got enough to work out without us complicating his life further. Let him splash around in this pool as long as he wants to. He'll go home when he gets tired.

tristan the Islamist Hate Whore:

It’s you the girl, champ. I don’t know if you are a whore or not, but what I know is you are too stupid to answer my arguments, so the only thing you are smart enough to do is to search and copypaste my posts during who knows how much time ( such is your obsession with me!) to prove… What? Is there anything you have to say about them? All this while you poor moron calls me “Islamist Hate Whore”??? XD

Champ… do you have anything to say, for example, about this??
This is not the first time a wingnut write this, but this kind of revisionism, the one who depicts crusaders as brave warriors being the first defenders of the "Judeo-Christian" civilization against Islam are really the tards among the tards. Among other things, they forget that these crusaders slaughtered entire cities in their way to Jerusalem, even in some cases cooking and eating their inhabitants, that once in the city they locked the Jews inside the synagogue and burned it, that they tortured the Orthodox Christians to make them revelate where the Holy Cross was hidden, and that one of the crusades was directed against fellow Christians!
Please answer, champ!

(Btw, I hope you realized my comment about the reign of Satan was a sarcasm, right?)

Templar my deranged friend, you have returned, like I supposed you would do! You told my posts were not worthy of an answer and that the thread should die, yet here you are again! XD

I have to note that the increasing number of grammatical errors that Tristan has made in these most recent posts of his indicate that he's gradually being worn down and becoming increasingly desparate

Yes, templar, the grammatical mistakes indicate I’m becoming increasingly “desparate”, you are totally right. XD

Templar, the reason I asked if it had taken you 1h30 to answer him is because of this:

March 16, 2008 6:36 PM – first post

March 16, 2008 8.00 PM – second post

But since you recognized it took you far more than what even I had expected, then please accept my apologies!

he can't place my response to his reference to cultural identity simply because he used, at one point in his argument with you, the words "one ethnicity", whereas you invoked the term "ethnic group", the expression that I erroneously quoted.

I must say I have difficulties understanding this; it seems your increasing difficulties to write coherent sentences indicates you are becoming increasingly “desparate”. Are you saying the terms “ethnicity” and “ethnic group” mean different things?

Worse, he gets so confused that he ends up talking in circles and failing to recognize the difference between "fact" and his own poorly thought out (considering the evidence he adduces) opinion of things

Could you put one example? Of the facts I’ve presented, tell me one that was wrong. Only one!

The idea that he seems to hold that anyone who could come to different conclusions than he has must be "brainwashed"

No templar, you misunderstood me. I didn’t say you were brainwashed because you came to different conclusions than me, I said you were brainwashed because you said I was “aligned with the forces of evil”. I don’t know how it goes in the US, but man, if you say something like that in my country (and I guess the same goes for most of the US), people will laugh at you and think you are completely cracked, as it is natural.

Following, more deranged non-sense about how me the one aligned with the forces of evil may be crazy! Just more attempts at discrediting me instead of the facts I’ve presented. I wonder how much time it took him this time to write all this. XD

Templar, my friend… did you check my link? The same one that addresses your argument that crimes committed by Israeli soldiers are punished??

Surely yes, but since you realized there was no way you could keep affirming the same thing when it was obviously proved to be wrong, you had nothing left but try to imply I am crazy, and all the idiocies about “frustrated adolescent rebellion” and “oedipal” indicates you want to look intelligent but instead indicates you have no idea about what you talk about. You have been searching Internet just to find something like this, right?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel

This the kind of thing you can't answer to. You see, I condemn both Palestinian and Israeli terrorists, but you guys believe in all this bs about the "only democracy of the ME". Know why I guessed you were Americans? Because Americans, especially the right-wingers are the only ones gullible enough to swallow this bs. Go see to UK, go see to any other country how much their citizens support Israel's crimes. And then you accuse me of living in a parallel world when you are the only ones who have no grasp of reality??

Hi Templar,

Thanks for writing back - and I'm sure that you were able to figure out the purpose behind the 20 minutes I spent researching said poster - he who is apparently unable to connect the dots for himself and solve this minor mystery alone.

I suppose it isn't nice to toy with the boy by leaving him questioning my intent behind the research, but I'm afraid I must be so heartless and do just that, because it is not that hard for him to sort this one out; or like you said, stew in his own juices. Good one!

Have a great day, fellow Purveyor of Truth! :-)

Bye thread......

Hi, champ!

Thanks for writing back - and I'm sure that you were able to figure out the purpose behind the 20 minutes I spent researching said poster - he who is apparently unable to connect the dots for himself and solve this minor mystery alone.

Champ, my mentally challenged friend, you also have come back! And you still haven't said anything about the articles!

And you keep ignoring my arguments because, as I already pointed out, you are too stupid for that. So what's now, you are trying to justify you spent 20 minutes (probably even more) searching and copypasting my posts like the loser you are?? Don't you see everybody can notice that no one of you have answered my points, and that no one of you has said anything about the links I provided, which debunk the lies you and the rest of the useful idiots believe in?

Champ, even if you are considerably stupid, you can still read, right?

Thanks for writing back - and I'm sure that you were able to figure out the purpose behind the 20 minutes I spent researching said poster - he who is apparently unable to connect the dots for himself and solve this minor mystery alone.

It’s you the girl, champ. I don’t know if you are a whore or not, but what I know is you are too stupid to answer my arguments, so the only thing you are smart enough to do is to search and copypaste my posts during who knows how much time ( such is your obsession with me!) to prove… What? Is there anything you have to say about them? All this while you poor moron calls me “Islamist Hate Whore”??? XD

Bye thread......

No champ. Just like templar, you will come back and read my post. I know you will. ;)

Well guys, time for a short holiday. Not sure if you will answer while I'm out, but anyway know that the forces of evil shall return! HAHAHA

A very interesting link!

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Nimmo_DeLay-Israel.htm

Now let's see if you keep answering or decide to spot making fools of yourselves. ;)