Parting words from Benazir Bhutto

Bhutto.jpg
I never knew she cared

Imagine my surprise yesterday afternoon when a reporter asked me for comment on the late Benazir Bhutto's attack on me in her book Reconciliation: Islam, Democracy, and the West. I hadn't read the book, and hadn't heard of any such attack, but I picked one up last night, and sure enough, there it is on page 245:

Robert Spencer is the author of the well-known Web site Jihad Watch. He uses the Internet to spread misinformation and hatred of Islam, while claiming he is merely putting forward the truth. But as in much extremist advocacy, he presents a skewed, one-sided, and inflammatory story that only helps sow the seeds of civilizational conflict. For example, he takes apparently violent verses of the Quran out of context and then does not provide any peaceful verses as a balance.

Unlike many of the more mainstream authors presented, Spencer does not understand the true Muslim faith or differentiate between moderate Muslims and violent Islamists, and so lumps them all in one boat:

Islam is a totalitarian ideology that aims to control the religious, social and political life of mankind in all its aspects, the life of its followers without qualification, and the life of those who follow the so-called tolerated religions to a degree that prevents their activities from getting in the way of Islam in any way. And I mean Islam: I do not accept some spurious distinction between Islam and "Islamic Fundamentalism" or "Islamic terrorism." The terrorists who planted the bombs in Madrid, and those responsible for the death of more than 2,000 people on September 11, 2001 in New York and the Ayatollahs of Iran were and are all acting canonically; their actions reflect the teachings of Islam, whether found in the Koran, in the acts and sayings of the Prophet, or Islamic law based on them.

That long quote from me sounded funny to me -- it just didn't sound to me like the way I write. But Bhutto's endnote said it was from page 11 of The Myth of Islamic Tolerance, an essay collection by many different authors that I edited, and so when I was laboriously typing all this out I went into the Word document of the material I wrote for that book, hoping I could just paste the paragraph in here. But...it wasn't there! It turns out that that quote is from the book's Foreword, "The Genesis of a Myth" by Ibn Warraq. Page 13, not 11.

So while excoriating me for allegedly quoting the Qur'an out of context, Benazir Bhutto attributed to me words written by someone else. And that someone is, like Bhutto, a Pakistani who was raised a Muslim. Ibn Warraq has spent years doing research on the historical Muhammad and the origins of the Qur'an -- and yet apparently he somehow now misunderstands the Islamic faith.

But leave that aside. When someone as illustrious as Benazir Bhutto sees me as an obstacle to the reconciliation she wanted to bring to the world before the jihadists assassinated her, it is incumbent upon me to explain myself.

He uses the Internet to spread misinformation and hatred of Islam, while claiming he is merely putting forward the truth.

Reporting on jihadist activity is spreading "misinformation and hatred of Islam"? Perhaps Mark A. Siegel of American University, former Deputy Assistant to President Jimmy Carter and a former Bhutto lobbyist who says that he "helped Benazir research and write this book," would be so kind as to provide an example or two of each, from anything I have written here or elsewhere -- that is, any misinformation or incitement to hatred. In the book, she fails to do so:

But as in much extremist advocacy, he presents a skewed, one-sided, and inflammatory story that only helps sow the seeds of civilizational conflict. For example, he takes apparently violent verses of the Quran out of context and then does not provide any peaceful verses as a balance.

This is wholly false, for in my books, notably Onward Muslim Soldiers, I discuss the peaceful verses at length, and describe how Muslim exegetes of the Qur'an have explained the relationship of the peaceful verses to the violent ones. And The Truth About Muhammad is in effect an extended study of the contexts of various Qur'anic passages. Here also is a discussion of the contexts of the violent verses in relation to the peaceful ones, as explained by Muslim exegetes, from this site.

And finally, the quote from Ibn Warraq that Bhutto misattributes to me does not establish her claim that I do not "differentiate between moderate Muslims and violent Islamists." It's about Islam, not Muslims. What people continually fail to grasp is the distinction between the texts and teachings of a faith, which are matters of record, and the many different ways in which people understand those texts and teachings. To say that all the schools of Islamic law teach violent jihad and the subjugation of unbelievers under the rule of Islamic law is simply a statement of fact. It can be proven or disproven with reference to the actual teachings of the schools. But if they do all teach this, and they do, that doesn't mean that every Muslim follows those teachings, any more than the fact that the Catholic Church teaches against contraception means that every Catholic opposes contraception. There is a spectrum of belief, knowledge, and fervor among Muslims as there is among believers in every belief system, religious or not.

And if one genuinely wishes to oppose those Muslims who are attempting to implement this deeply traditional supremacist program, one cannot do so by pretending that the teachings that those Muslims rely on don't exist, or that someone like me is responsible for exaggerating the impact of "apparently violent verses of the Quran." No, it is Muslims themselves all around the world who are daily invoking those passages of the Qur'an to justify acts of violence, and Benazir Bhutto, of all people, should have been willing to acknowledge that, and deal with its implications.

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Regardless of her sloppy and baseless accusations of you Robert, it is apparent she should have visited this site more often.

Mark A. Siegel of American University, former Deputy Assistant to President Jimmy Carter and a former Bhutto lobbyist who says that he "helped Benazir research and write this book"
-- from the article above


The way these things go these days, that means Mark Siegel wrote almost every word. Benazir Bhutto might have seen some of it. Or she might not. Those turgid tomes, the ones supposedly written by, say, Madeleine Albright or Colin Powell or Abba Eban or Bill Clinton, or Hillary Clinton, so very rarely are. They thank their "researchers." They thank their "editors." They thank those who may have "helped with the writing."

It's mostly a novakian crock.

Very few people today, among the Great and Good, can write more than a few pages at a time.

Don't expect more. Expect ever less, as things diminish further according to the iron laws that reflect the degradation of the democratic dogma. Read about the hours given over to, and attempts to re-create the contents of, the extemporaneous Lincoln-Douglas debates, and compare that to the latest whittling down of political debate to replies that should be "no more than a minute," is whittled down to answers, "of no more than a minute," on some televised stage where the reporters ask simplified often missing-the-point questions that, since responses are to be limited to that inflexible minute, become part of a "debate" worthy of fifth-graders earnestly discussing some matter not of national or civilization-threatening international significance, but rather of fifth-grade moment.

Well, there vanishes the thread of respect I had for Bhutto and what I *thought* she had been trying to accomplish.

More of the same ol', same ol'.

Preaching "peace and freedom" while castigating those who want the same thing.

It's yet more proof that, come what may, all Muslims stick together.

Study her pretty face - it's the face of DENIAL.

I realize that I am taking the liberty of speaking for a dead woman - but were she able to speak to us now - I'm certain that she would denounce her defense of Islam.

It is definitely too late for her - but not for us.

Islam be gone!

"He uses the Internet to spread misinformation and hatred of Islam, while claiming he is merely putting forward the truth."

Robert Spencer does nothing of the sort. She clearly has never been to this website.

Whereas, in the meantime, Islam not only uses the Internet, but uses schools, madrassas, television and mosques worldwide to brainwash children, spread lies and express hatred at other faiths.

Funny how Bhutto seems to have no problem with this, even though it killed her in the end.

I believe that Benazir Bhutto was one of those deluded Muslims that admired the West and its Democratic, enlightened, progressive way of life, and would have liked to recreate a similiar society in Pakistan, but could not quite break the stranglehold Islam had on her mind. Like so many Muslim Moderates, she could not bring herself to accept the incompatibility of Islam and Democracy.

I suspect that it never occured to her that the grinding poverty, ignorance, violence and oppresion in Pakistan, as in other Islamic societies, might have something to do with Islam.

Her delusion was that all Pakistan needed was free elections, and everything would be OK, never really realizing that the so long as the electorate in her country were in the grip of the dysfunctional thinking, peculiar to Islamic societies, there was little hope that elections would change anything for the better in Pakistan.

Sadly, Bhutto was destined to fail, no matter how sincere she was.

What Bhutto said and how she ended speaks poetically for itself. She was an arrogant fool who suffered the consequences unfortunately for her.

What I am confused about is this:

But if they do all teach this, and they do, that doesn't mean that every Muslim follows those teachings, any more than the fact that the Catholic Church teaches against contraception means that every Catholic opposes contraception. There is a spectrum of belief, knowledge, and fervor among Muslims as there is among believers in every belief system, religious or not.


There is a distinction between the individual practicioners and the stated goals of the theology.

If the so-called followers of an ideology refuse to abide by the official teachings and pronouncements -- are they really ture followers?

In either the case of "rogue" Catholics or muslims my sense is that if they are not playing by the rules that they profess to believe in and follow -- then I fail to see how they are truly followers at all; unless those institutions allow for individual interpretations and so far as I no, neither does.

Catholics are not a threat as I see it, because at this point in history there is no mandate to hunt down and dispatch those with whom they do not agree theologically. Such is not the case with islam.

Having said all this, what happens when the free-spirits within islam decide to renew and rekindle their roots?

Perhaps Bhutto should have pontificated upon that point?

She was a pompous arrogant snob like the rest of her class in poverty stricken and squalid Pakistan. She exhibited the callousness and cynicism of the unjustly and criminally wealthy, syphoning off millions to her Swiss bank accounts. She was a typical product of an outsourced, privileged, elitist education and lived in a bubble. In spite of that westernisation, she never evolved out of the umma into a truly global consciousness and the reason is a lust for power. Pakistani politics is about power and so is Islam, so her remarks above come as no surprise. She would not tolerate any dissection of Mohammed's power mongering and the supremacism of Islam. It was her very identity.

Assuming that Bhutto knew (let alone wrote) everything above that was written in her name, it shouldn't come as a surprise. This was a woman who had no qualms about establishing the Taliban and making it the new source of power in Afghanistan as a part of her jihad to undo everything ever done by her predecessor who she hated - General Zia ul Haq. This is a woman who called for the lynching of Kashmir's former governor. In the west, she was a lying taquiyya artist - much along the lines of a Tariq Ramadhan or a Mansoor Ijaz.

On the statement about Islam vs Muslims above, Robert, you are right that either Islam teaches the subjugation of unbelievers or it doesn't, which then goes down to what the verses say, and the violent verses vis a vis the peaceful ones. But once your get to that point, that's where the rubber meets the road, and where the issue of how Muslims read those verses come in. Had an overwhelming number of Muslims worldwide done what, say, MuslimsagainstShariah has done, and simply deleted the violent passages, it would be irrelevant what Islam itself actually teaches. However, enough, if not most, Muslims in all Islamic countries are supremacist enough to implement and enforce Shariah laws that subjugate unbelievers.

It's therefore fine for you to say that you're simply stating blind facts about Islam. However when you have contradictory facts that are interpreted in certain ways by Muslims in positions to do anything about their religion (and here I'm talking the OIC leaders, the Imam of Mecca, Ayatollah Khamenei, Grand Mufti of Egypt, leading Imams of Pakistan, et al, as well as regimes and Islamic movements in all Islamic countries), it's inadequate to say that a study of Islam alone is going to explain all the goings on in the world today. Instead, an examination into the records of 'moderate' Muslim leaders like Bhutto herself would have revealed what she tried to deny above, instead of just accepting at face value the universal existance of a range of opinions about a particular religion from its followers.

This is a quite typical. To defend Islam, they must take Islam's critics out of context and misquote them in order to offer some feeble defensive argument. They never quote the Koran and explain how those violent passages are not violent at all but figments of our imagination.

These people would have us all believe there is Islam A and Islam B. When it suits them, they place blame on Islam A or Islam B for 'misunderstanding Islam', but 'Islam' is peaceful, didn't you know? Quite convenient.

Bhutto, another 'misunderstander' of Islam.

Just watched a demo in Londonistan by Gurkhas who used to fight for the UK and are now to be deported. Strangely, very strangely it was Muslims speaking for them and hijabbed females assisting in the demonstration. Gurkhas are not Muslims, last time I checked.

What do you make of that?

Benazir Bhutto, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, said:

Robert Spencer is the author of the well-known Web site Jihad Watch.

"Well-known" website. Not "far right-wing" website. Not "extremist Islamophobic" website. But "well-known" website.

Almost 20 million hits and counting, baby.

Robert said

It turns out that that quote is from the book's Foreword, "The Genesis of a Myth" by Ibn Warraq.

Robert Spencer, Ibn Warraq, who can tell the difference? All you Islamophobes look (and write) alike to the True Believers. Even True Believers who apparently were not a True Enough Believer to be allowed to continue living by the even Truer Believers.

It would be great to see a collection published of Spencer´s best internet and other debates.

Well, she now knows that Islam isn't true, wherever she is.

JohnDoe, I think that Islam prevents people from developing an identity and any sense of individuality.

That's why a Muslim's very identity IS Islam. I saw a woman on television who said "If I wasn't a Muslim, then I wouldn't know who I was." That's what keeps Muslims defending Islam, because they have nothing else. No identity, no individuality, nothing.

"Just watched a demo in Londonistan by Gurkhas who used to fight for the UK and are now to be deported. Strangely, very strangely it was Muslims speaking for them and hijabbed females assisting in the demonstration. Gurkhas are not Muslims, last time I checked."
- from a posting above


One would have to know a bit more, but it sounds as if Muslims may be worried about being deported and so are trying to cause as much fuss as they can, even if they are doing it for those -- the Gurkhas -- whom, if given a chance in a Muslim-ruled land, those same demonstrating Muslims would either kill or forcibly convert, for the Gurkhas, not even People of the Book, have not earned even the status of dhimmi.

For example, he takes apparently violent verses of the Quran out of context and then does not provide any peaceful verses as a balance.
Obviously, the late Benazir Bhutto was ignorant of the Qur'anic principle of naskh (abrogation). She thought that by trashing Robert Spencer she would appeal to and unite the majority of Indian Muslims, who are "sensible" and "moderate" since, of course, it is only a Tiny Minority of Extremists who misunderstand the peaceful teachings of Islam... It is sad, when people who mean well and try to be righteous, lack an intellectual foundation to back their misguided and confused piety.

I am starting to think that you can say whatever you wish, without any regard to facts or restating what is said, as long as it is "Out of context." So what shall be "In context?" Sounds like if you take something said, and clarify it's meaning and agree with it, it is in context. Furthermore if you disagree, then it is considered, out of context.

Baberas said

whatever you wish, without any regard to facts or restating what is said, as long as it is "Out of context."

Yes, claiming "out of context" seems to have become the Swiss Army Knife of "debating" techniques. They are never asked to explain what the proper context is for lines like "slay them wherever you find them".

"Well, she now knows that Islam isn't true, wherever she is."

Followers of the Moon God only go to one place upon death, Volty.

I am not surprised at her attitude, she was after all a muslim, 'It was her very identity', as stated above. I am a little surprised that someone in her position would write, or have written, a sloppy book. Singling RS out for 'special attention', is a left handed compliment. Now if Beasty Boy Ahmadinijad, or the dancing Ayatollah would do that,
we would be getting somewhere...

I have never been a fan of Bhutto, but it seems that her beloved muslims did her in. The violent ones that she defends just couldn't keep themselves from aiming their violence towards her.

The only ones who defended her are the same dolts here in the USA that chose ignorance of islam. So, no surprise for me.

OT,,very OT!

But guys in the US check this out.
Obama's pastor publishes the Hamas charter
dated July last year.

http://www.bizzyblog.com/wp-images/TUCChamasColumn072207.jpg

My OUIJA board says that Benazir has revised her opinion of both you and Islam, Mr. Spencer.

It slowly spelled out:

"Tell Robert my ghost writer didn't do my ghost any justice. You were right. Islam must admit its schizophrenic roots or the Koranic violence will never end. I was about to phone you, but someone used a different kind of cellphone to end the transmission. Blue apples."

The last two words took me a while to fathom, but they appear to be something related to a cryptic mystery in the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail"... so maybe Bhutto converted, in her last moment, to a saner faith?

My concern is the misquoting of Mister Robert. The pure disdain for truth and facts. It plays into the propagandish filtration of totaly taking truths, and labeling them, out of context. Spencer lives up to his statements, and asks us to repudiate. Never once has he gone back on a statement, or ever said, it was out of context, to the greater meaning.

She had the best education money could buy - Catholic convent in Karachi, degrees from Harvard and Oxford. And still she was guilty of sloppy scholarship and gross deception in her writing.

For closed ideologues, is a formal education ever the answer?

From the end of "Reconciliation":

"I make these recommendations because the times require something more than business as usual. Much of what is recommneded is somewhat out of the box. But staying within the box has brought poverty, ignorance, hopelessness, violence, and dictatorship to far too many Muslims around the world. Staying within the box has set Islam and the West on a dangerous and unnecessary collision course. It is time for new ideas. It is time for creativity. It is time for bold commitment. And it is time for honesty, both among people and between people." (pp.317-8)

Honesty? Yeah, sure.

You can take the girl out of Karachi but you can't take Karachi out of the girl.

Hoisted by one's own petard!

I think that there's a tragic element to the story of a brave and beautiful woman who was murdered by adherents of the religion she so ardently defended in her book. Very few people have the intelligence and imagination of an Ali Sina or Wafa Sultan and make the break. Maybe in the afterlife she will know the sad truth about what killed her and wrecked her country.

"For example, he (Spencer) takes apparently violent verses of the Quran out of context and then does not provide any peaceful verses as a balance."

True balance would be taking apparently peaceful verses out of context, but that's not what the Bhutto/Siegel nexus had in mind with this stupid argument and calculated smear campaign against a most effective truth teller, Robert Spencer.

Yes, it will be interesting to read Siegel's posted reply to Spencer's challenge to produce evidence of "any misinformation or incitement to hatred" from anything that he has written here or elsewhere.

This is one of the most powerful things I have seen on this site. It should be reprinted and YOU, Mr. Spencer, should hand it out asy you ask journalists (interviewing youu) if their standards of research are better then hers.

Robert

Out of curiosity, are you going to try to get the publisher to correct this "mistake" in future prints? She is well known, after all, and what's written in her book may be used as a reference for future "scholars". Might be a good idea to get those kinds of "mistakes" corrected before they become gospel?

Just a thought.

Johndoe got it right the first time, that just about sums it up and is worth repeating:

She was a pompous arrogant snob like the rest of her class in poverty stricken and squalid Pakistan. She exhibited the callousness and cynicism of the unjustly and criminally wealthy, syphoning off millions to her Swiss bank accounts. She was a typical product of an outsourced, privileged, elitist education and lived in a bubble. In spite of that westernisation, she never evolved out of the umma into a truly global consciousness and the reason is a lust for power. Pakistani politics is about power and so is Islam, so her remarks above come as no surprise. She would not tolerate any dissection of Mohammed's power mongering and the supremacism of Islam. It was her very identity.

Posted by: johndoe

Robert, I don't know how you keep your patience in dealing with this sort of idiocy. My patience ran out long ago just in talking about it among friends and various places in the blogosphere. And I surely don't deal with half of what you have to deal with on a daily basis! My hat is off to you.

Isn't it telling that the this same Islam that you supposedly misrepresent cost this woman her life? Very sad indeed.

Cheers to you and everyone here at JW. Keep on speaking out the truth.

Please! Please! Please! Can I stop hearing and reading Arabic religious terminology! Do we not have english words that convey the meaning of all the Mohammedan religion's terms. If you control the words you can control the argument. I know they don't like to be called "Mohammedans" but isn't that who they follow? They sure don't follow Jesus! When I call them Mohammedans I am stating that they follow that person in their teaching and their lifestyle, not they they worship him. Why do these followers of Mohammad always get their arguments back-asswards? Oops! I got off my main rant to my other main rant.

When Islam stops killing innocent people in every corner around the planet, I will develop concern about criticisms of non-Muslims by Muslims.

Until then, my feeling about Ms.Bhutto and her ilk is "so what?"

PS----Ms. Bhutto has gone to her grave presumably with the knowledge that Islam has brutally murdered upwards of 280 MILLION human beings for no good reason other than Muslims read in a book that they cannot verify that "al-lah orders them to kill unbelievers."

I would like to think, and do think, that the words Robert takes issue with were not written by Benazir Bhutto, but by her ghost-writer, Mark Siegel, or possibly by some family member adding something to Bhutto's posthumously-published manuscript. Bhutto herself used to claim that happiest memories were of her life as a student when she was able to walk in perfect freedom, without a male escort, and without bodyguards, all by herself, from Briggs Hall to classes, or from Eliot House to Harvard Square, just to buy a newspaper at Nini's Corner. That temporary freedom was the summit of her youthful happiness -- as a Muslimah, under all kinds of impossible and, for her, intolerable constraints.

I tried out my Ouija board too, and this is what Ms. Bhutto said:
“I can no more disown Islam than I can disown my own community. … These people are a part of me. And they are a part of Pakistan, this country that I love. … Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments contained in the Koran and Hadiths that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode (my assassination in the name of Islam) and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. But religion is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality. The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced concerning Islam and its role in terrorist violence and suppression of freedom of speech and thought reflect the complexities of Islam in the West that we've never really worked through. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the Muslim community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of those who opposed the violent spread of Islam beginning with Charles the Hammer, and more recently Jihadwatch and Robert Spencer.”

"She was a pompous arrogant snob like the rest of her class in poverty stricken and squalid Pakistan. She exhibited the callousness and cynicism of the unjustly and criminally wealthy, syphoning off millions to her Swiss bank accounts. She was a typical product of an outsourced, privileged, elitist education and lived in a bubble. In spite of that westernisation, she never evolved out of the umma into a truly global consciousness and the reason is a lust for power. Pakistani politics is about power and so is Islam, so her remarks above come as no surprise. She would not tolerate any dissection of Mohammed's power mongering and the supremacism of Islam. It was her very identity." by johndoe

You nailed it. This woman and the family she was a part of were looters, which is evidence that she could not break free of Islam's hold over her mind. The insipid sanctimoniousness of her remarks about Robert and a book she's never read, articles of his she's never read, and a site she's never been to are too rich!

The people who collaborated in this screed are pathetic pretenders, who know nothing about scholarship. Their stock in trade is the hit-and-run. Smear and dissimulate. It's really quite shocking how far our academic culture has sunk. It's just one more piece of evidence that I put into the mosaic of what the future looks like - the one that Newt Gingrich has just described: the mushroom cloud over an American city or the hospitals choking with tens of thousands contaminated by a biological weapon. We are sleepwalking into a ghastly future. But our wounds will be light compared with the retribution heaped upon the Muslim world by an angry people who want doom brought down upon dar al Islam.

Just goes to show, there is no such thing as a true Muslim Allie in this war against Jihad. The religion is the deception and they will side with the violent sickness even while it's cutting them to pieces.

I S L A M O R E A L I T Y -- face it.

Mr. Spencer, I'm impressed. It seems that your message is being heard if prominent voices dispute it; let them ante-up, if they can.

Bhutto could never get it right

Bhutto the KLEPTOCRAT BITCH IN A HERMES HEAD SCARF said Islam forbids suicide bombings and attacks on her. "Muslims know if they attack a woman they will burn in hell," she said.

Shame on you Robert if that is what concerns you about what she quoted about you in her book, it is peanuts compared to other quotes she made

Benazir may speak the language of liberalism and look good on Larry King’s sofa, and insists that she’s “fighting for democracy”, or even more incredibly, “fighting for Pakistan’s poor”

Or when David Frost when he asked her how many millions she had in her Swiss bank accounts. “David, I think that’s a very sexist question.”

Here we go

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/12/2007-stupid-bitch-award.html

I believe that it was President Bush who soon after the September 11 attacks urged calm and forstalled reprisals against Muslims. For this the jihadists of the world should be thankful. The next major attack, Fred Isinglass will be correct. There will be "retribution heaped upon the Muslim world by an angry people who want doom brought down upon dar al Islam". However, I fear that jihadist attacks will continue as death by a thousand cuts, rather than all out assault. The question then is not to promise a massive counter attack after a mushroom cloud rises over an American city, but rather to determine the type and scale of counterattacks after a few more are killed here, and a few more are killed there, in the name of Islam.

Finally, a major player (albeit RIP) who gets Spencer and his ilk right. Good for her. My respect for her has increased tenfold.

Don't be dumb, Drum. Robert didn't even write the passage Benazir (through ghost writers) used to supposedly expose his Islamophobia. If you had even bothered to read Robert's reply you would know that. But then, why should you be troubled by facts, right?

I prefer the brilliant logic of Oriana Fallaci (RIP) to the dysfunctional thinking of all Muslims. Incredible their way of thinking! Are we sure they are descendants of Homo sapiens?

You know, the problem with Islam is the Qu'ran. The whole book is out of context in this 21st century. Just like the Bible!

Dear Friends,

To bring in Miss Bhutto’s pin pricking in respect of Mr Robert Spencer at this juncture is just an effort of the author to get some media attention and make his few well wishers more gleeful. This is another technique to revive the ever fading stance of this an Anti- God, anti-Islamic website. Looks like he vie Mr Geert Wilders, the producer of Anti-Quran ‘Fitna’ film and has the desire to at least excel him on this account? After all he is putting much more efforts than a beleaguered single man, Mr Geert with his little 12 minutes documentary?

This is not very surprising that Robert Spencer is all out to undermine the ‘Last Word of God Almighty’. ( One finds many stooges out there in the history) Knowing it to be such that there is Truth lying out there; He willfully indulges in bending, twisting and tries to misappropriate the subject matter. He picks and chooses and quotes out of context in order to malign the True Spirit of the Message and to mislead the masses having a sketchy, little or no knowledge of it. He always puts up a scaring horrific picture of Islam. He is also unable to differentiate between the Truth of the Message of Islam and acts of some stooges with their Muslim names misquoting and misusing for their own vested interests. They seems to be close to Mr Robert Spencer’s heart.

The pity is that he also calls himself the Scholar?

Allah says: So carry on thy work; we, too, are working.' And ‘Verily, Allah does not permit the work of mischief-makers to prosper.’
-----------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None

I never got the impression that Benazir Bhutto was particularly religious, and I think comments about "Islam's hold over her mind" are very wide of the mark. Her accommodations with Islam were purely pragmatic. When she was in power she did nothing to help women who were targeted by Islamic legislation from the Zia era, not because she believed in Sharia, but because she didn't want to rock any boats.

Like a lot of people, she wanted to believe that Islam was compatible with modernity and human rights, and frequently claimed that it was. Was she deluded or a liar? I don't think so. Like I said, she wasn't very religious. The headscarf was purely for show: she used to have a servant come in and arrange it when the photographers turned up. After her death, some New Yorker friends of hers published some photos taken at private parties she had attended. No headscarf.

I would also agree that the passage under discussion was almost certainly ghost-written. She was much to grand to do her own writing, and from what I've heard her literary tastes extended no further than trashy romantic novels.

Poor deluded Khokar, Again you speak to the emotions which portray you as an offended child who lacks discernment. And you still fail to address the truthful content of Robert's text and the apparent false info written by Bhutto. You lose again.

Posted by: A Khokar at March 20, 2008 6:14 AM


Indeed there is truth out there. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Bhutto was brought up in this thread because a book bearing her name as author horribly misappropriated words to Robert that were not his. It is either baseless slander or sloppy research and neither reflects well on the book and its "authors".

You then follow up your denial of this undisputable fact with your own baseless slander of Robert and general condemnation of his tactics as disingenuine and faulty, while conveniently failing to provide a single concrete example to validate your position.

I can see by your writing that you are challenged in several ways, but with the abundance of written material that Robert has made public, surely you can find a single example to support your statement, right?

Once again, a Mulsim completely abdicates responsibility for her religion and projects its hostility onto someone who simply catalogues events. Ironically, she is then killed by the very evil she purported to worship. What a sick, twisted, venal ideology.

We need a million more Spencers and a 100 million less Bhuttos. But with Dhimmis rolling over for Islam out of fear I don't think that will happen.

ImNoDhimmi, Platypus and Friends,

The Neanderthal was probably not human ( Krings , 1999). Neanderthals were hunter-gatherers who moved across Europe too and fro with the advance and retreat of the Ice Age glaciers.

With the arrival in Europe of modern humans i.e. the movement of modern humans, ‘Homo sapiens’ out of Africa and with an advanced and sophisticated technology 40,000 years ago, Neanderthals started to vanish. Around 35,000 years ago temperatures started to decline and the most recent Neanderthal remains are found south in isolated seaside caves in Spain. Some tools are 29,000 years old. Neanderthals were still living in Croatia as recently as 28,000 years ago and in southern Spain only 30,000 years ago (Hall, 1999). The Croatian population had some modern human anatomical characteristics. Neanderthals from France, Spain (Zafarraya), and possibly Italy (Cavallo), fall within the period 32-36,000 B.P. There was not enough time for these late Neanderthals to have evolved into the 31,000-year-old modern humans from England and Germany (Brown, 2001). A fossil of a 24,500-year-old early modern human child unearthed in Portugal shows distinctive Neanderthal characteristics, possibly the result of interbreeding. After that, all record vanished.

I don’t think that Muslim creed found in Middle East and other areas around it has their ancestral linkage with the Neanderthals.
-------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None

"...Anti-Quran ‘Fitna’ film"

A Khokar, have you seen the film "Fitna"?

No?

Then how do you know it is "anti-quran"?

Why don't you watch it when it comes out and form your own opinion about it?

You also write "He willfully indulges in bending, twisting and tries to misappropriate the subject matter. He picks and chooses and quotes out of context in order to malign the True Spirit of the Message and to mislead the masses having a sketchy, little or no knowledge of it."

Could you please provide a single example of this?

Thanks.

kuta

Khokar the muslim with the Christian motto...Love for all, Hatred for None...Say, Uh, Khokar, can you point out in the Quran where Allah says to love 'everyone', and hate no one. I mean, love for all includes Spencer, does it not? You do 'love' Robert, don't you? How about Geert Wilder, or Wafa Sultan, you love them as well, do you not? And of course that means you also love Geo Bush and Ben Laden, equally. You are indeed a saint...whoops wait, Islam produces no saints, so it can't be that.
If Khokar is not a saint, what is he?
Oh a troll, it is very hard to distinguish the difference between a muslim saint, and a troll, they are so much alike...

I certify that my views on Islam were unaffected by Mr Spenser in any shape and form. I appreciate the information, for which I come to Jihad Watch, but I come here for information only. It is a simple coincidence that my views on Islam are almost identical to Mr. Spenser's views, but they formed long before I became aware of Jihad Watch. They were formed from reading the koran and never changed since, even after tons of new information became available. Bhutto was talking garbage.

duh_swami,

Khokar's motto is just incomplete. He just did a bad cut and paste.

Love for all, hatred for None who worship allah and his prophet.
Love for none, death for all who reject allah and his prophet.

What an incredible mistake by Bhutto! It is sad to think that people are going to read that book and actually take her word for it.

Dear Duh_Swami,

From your name 'Swami' it gives me an indication that you believe in Hinduism but you do participate in the discussions relating to Christianity also. May be to remain on board among the gleeful participants of Jihad Watch? Any how; Will you kindly give out your belief that you may be given an appropriate answer?

With best of regards and Love.
A Khokar

Hang on....

We have millions of muslims attesting to the fact that islamic scripture is the whole context of their very existance; their attitudes, their politics, their crimes and misdemeanours, their wars of attrition, their assassinations, and their lawsuits, can not and should not be taken out of context, lest they feel offended.

Then as soon as someone like Robert presents events, characters, and context on one page, they rush into print claiming they feel offended.

They don't. They feel busted. That's because they are busted. That is why they need to shut you up. And that is why you must never shut up.

Dear A Khokar,

I doubt "Duh_Swami" is Hindu. The word "swami" has been incorporated into English, in both its original sense and in the added sense of "like a swami, PUNDIT, SEER."

I find your anthropology lesson facinating and informative, but entirely beside the point--no one means to speak of "Neanderthal" in the original sense of that word, according to its literal meaning; we native English-speakers usually mean neanderthal metaphorically, to mean hopelessly, innately primitive, backwards, or regressive; uncivilized.

Dear A Khokar,

You might notice, in time, that many kinds of people regularly post their comments here, not just Christians, of which many here are, of various denominations. There are also a number of Jews, of secular humanists, agnostics, and atheists, as well as Hindus and Muslims among us. It does not follow that one must be Christian to have a place in this forum.

Howdy Khokar,

why on earth Muslims alwys rip other people off? Judging by the lack of creativity I noticed that you true to your color cut and rip the content of :

http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_neand.htm

"With the arrival in Europe of modern humans, with an advanced and sophisticated technology 40,000 years ago, Neanderthals started to vanish. Around 35,000 years .... "

Your flock is pathetic.

Here´s a link directly to the paragraph Khokar tried to pass off here (in his 9:04 AM post) as his own:


http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_neand.htm#Extinction


Dear All,

I believe in the Truth of the Last Message of Almighty; our living God; which is universal and for the whole of the mankind. It confirms all the old true denominations along with their prophets (peace be upon them all). It contains the commandments duly reformed, upgraded and offering the best of the solutions for the peace and harmony for the people of today on this planet Earth. All the previous prophets came as Sheppards of their individual flocks have duly prophesised the coming of Last prophet (pbuh) to come with this message which is now with us.

This latest Word of God is the source of blessing for the whole of the mankind. This is a treasure lying out there and it will not be fair that it is not shared or delivered to all the fellow human being that I find them immersed and drowned in ignorance, lust and leisure. Most of them are pursuing the rapacious greed and have since wronged their souls. The entire planet is infested with hypocrisy, oppression, deceit, subjugation and deprivation. The whole of mankind is suffering and is divided into have and have not. This planet is in dire need of ‘Love’ and ‘Absolute Justice’ in the light of God’s Latest Message; which can only be rescued with; ‘Love for all, and Hatred for None’.

I feel like filling the entire stratosphere above the surface of this planet with love and devotion. The compassionate and loving people have to come forward. Any body may teach but ‘we learn only from those we love’the most; says Johaan Von Eckerman, and ‘where there is love, no room is too small’; says Talmud.

We all have to strive very hard that this message of God reaches all the Joes trekking in the streets. ‘For every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it;" says Ivan Panin.

Our God is the most Compassionate, Gracious and loving God. He is in love with the best of His creature; we the human beings. Being in Love and having finalized the religion for us; He also admonishes the believers more firmly to reverence their God and His Law; lest they are detracted and become the recipient of wraths of old arrogant peoples which He does not want to exercise at this stage. In a race; when leaping forward for the final bounds; ones flimsy wavering may not be acceptable.

I know that these strong admonishing quotations found in Holy Quran are some times hijacked on purpose and are misquoted out of context to malign this ‘Message of Love’. But these misappropriate; they may not be aware of it that; while deep in love; the love demands the deeper devotions.

You need to be in it; to win it.
------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None

(Posted by: kutabeach at March 20, 2008 9:15 AM)

Dear Kutabeach,

You need not to go anywhere else. Please try to read in between the lines. After all; this website Jihadwatch; itself is meant for this.
-------------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None.

Dear John C,

Thank you very much for your kind comments. John, I have noticed that our friends here are easily detracted and very quickly they resort to insulting each other. Most of times they do it; owing to their ignorance of the facts. In our discussion the curtsey demands that we stay calm; be magnanimous and conduct cool to learn as a good students of ‘comparative studies in religion’.

In particular case of ‘Neanderthal’, I exactly knew what ‘ImNoDhimmi’ and ‘Platypus’ meant but in order to prevent them not to indulge into more slandering; I tried to divert them to the origin of ‘Neanderthals’ and all.

How joyous it would be that we conduct gracefully in our interfaith relation discussions and learn from each other more. Look for common terms to attain peace and prosperity in our lives.

With best of Regards
A Khokar

A Tragic End of an Able but Misguided Daughter of Pakistan

Where as President Musharraf in Pakistan was living by his initial undertaking with United States to function as front state in US 'War against Terrorism';…only Musharraf knows best that how many Pakistani military personals and civilians have so for been killed in the name of this 'phoney war' in order to help US to bring about US global hegemonic greed to grow and bloom full.

Musharraf had no personal interests; he is out there doing best under the circumstances to wade through some ways in a good faith which only fall good in the interests of Pakistan. In case of Benazir Bhutto (on the dictations of US) to instate her back in power in Pakistan; he even agreed to lift the corruption charges against her and made all the arrangements for her smooth re-entry in Pakistan. And she did arrive back home.
But funny things started happening soon after her arrival. Washington rather than adopting the policy of ‘Run deep-Run silent’ and stay there calm in support of the issued scheme; stepped up an adverse and negative campaign against Musharraf. US started declaring him a spent cartridge and projected him a discredited President. US were doing every thing to depict him discredited, dysfunctional and to throw him; ousted as disgraced and humiliated. It is old bad habit of America to use his proxies as ‘tissue papers’ and ditches them by extermination; in a way that they are silenced for good.

Not only this; US also started boasting about Benazir Bhutto also; as a staunch US ally in a country where 70% people are against US in the global war on terror. Bhutto also bowed to the US rhetoric as a gesture to say a big thank you. This was a drastic miscalculation at her part to come back into power from back doors. After arrival she soon realised her folly and in order to back-pedal it and bring the masses in her favour, she heated up the political theatre by issuing fiery statement against Musharraf regime; that was by all means ready to step aside.

Where as Musharraf is not found dithering an inch in his resolve in the face of this campaign of malignity against him (except that he seems bit perplexed) but all this short sighted and ill aimed scheme of United States where as met its failure also cost Miss Benazir… her life. It is a tragic end of an able but misguided daughter of Pakistan while playing in the hand of her US affiliates.

*May God keep this land of dreams and glory ever flourishing!
Blood of many a patriot sons have gone into its soils to nurture it.

---------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none

Uh Oh, what happened to my comments?

Dear A Khokar,

You are most welcome. Yes, I understand your point. I welcome your universalistic application of Islam--I understand that you are Ahmadi--and believe that this message of yours should be heard and understood, not just by non-Muslims, but most especially by Muslims.

The day that most, the vast majority, of Muslims accept Ahmadiya Muslims as fellow Muslims will be the day when people of faith will be heard by people who lack faith, and the day when people of all faiths will seek to understand and follow the Will of God.

Yours for love of God and fellow man,

John C

Let us all remember the difference between opinion and fact.

OPINION (One that I don't share.)
Robert Spencer is the author of the well-known Web site Jihad Watch. He uses the Internet to spread misinformation and hatred of Islam, while claiming he is merely putting forward the truth.

FACT
Benazir Bhutto took millions of dollars from an impoverished people and put them in private Swiss bank accounts for her family and herself.

I affirm tolerance and non-violence; if others reach out in good faith I share a mutual respect with them. That does not mean I necessarily share their religious or political views.







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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