Just don't draw any cartoons.
Effectively, you see, the OIC's attempt to outlaw "insults to Islam" amounts to an attempt to place the jihadists above scrutiny, for any study of their motives and goals insofar as they are rooted in Islamic texts and teachings will be ruled offensive and hence forbidden.
Abdullah doesn't talk about the cartoons in the Arab News (thanks to Sr. Soph) article in which he says no one is above criticism. Nevertheless I couldn't help but recall, reading his words, the attempt to place Islam off limits for criticism, which would effectively make Muslims a protected class in the West even as the jihadists invoke Islam in order to gain recruits for their effort to destroy the West.
Insult Islam! Insult Islam!
I can't think of anything else in the early 21st century that DESERVES more criticism than Islam.
The West will continue in its, so, politically-correct ways pacifying its nemesis, Islam. One has to chuckle at this Saudi king’s double-shuffling; after all, his nation is one in which radical Islam has been borne, nurtured and exported to proliferate, plague-like, the entire world.
Meanwhile, the likes of Bush profess the Saudis as allies: the light in the attic will never switch on.
Hmm, Abdullah says no one is above criticism, except a certain 7th c. Arabian "propheteer."
From the news article: "The king referred to himself as a 'self-critic,' adding that he was capable, with the support of God, of promoting righteousness and preventing wickedness."
Gee, that's just what Mohammad thought as well.
In the eyes of the West,Islam insults itself every day, and of course Islam reflects on our Western values as an insult to Islam---WALLA-- thus you have the clash of ideologies or civilzations for that matter.
The kings fluffy puffy comments are just that. Never a mention of womens rights or as one comedian so aptly put it; " Saudia Arabia; where men are men, and women are cattle".
King Abdullah's entire empire is sustained on oil and those slaves, I mean foreign workers who toil to do most of the work of the Arabs.
The king then flys off in his Boeing 747 displaying more outrageous opulence then even the hardest working billionairs would dare to display.
here is the appropriate music as King Abdullah visits the Queen in Britain.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Loaj4bXLrD4
"Saudi King: Nobody is above criticism"
Oh yea! let someone try it!
He only needs to fool the dhimmi. Since thay already start off has fools it's not going to be that hard.
Abdullah is using a political ploy to lull the West.
From the news article, toward the end:
King Abdullah said Saudi Arabia would continue to provide unwavering support to the Palestinians until they had won their legitimate rights.
There ya go.
"Abdullah doesn't talk about the cartoons in the Arab News (thanks to Sr. Soph) article in which he says no one is above criticism. Nevertheless I couldn't help but recall, reading his words, the attempt to place Islam off limits for criticism, which would effectively make Muslims a protected class in the West even as the jihadists invoke Islam in order to gain recruits for their effort to destroy the West"
Posted by Robert Spencer
----
Exactly right, which basically leaves the West in a futile position. Jihadists use Islam as justification to attack, (physical attacks and lawful attacks) and non muslims are being told we can't do a thing about it, because we can't talk about the problem, which is, obviously, Islam.
It's a deadly strategy by Team Ummah. Hope they're called out on it, soon.
Abdullah says;
“Let there not be between us an oppressor and an oppressed, a powerful or a weak. We are all loving brothers in one country who are true to its faith and are willing to give their lives for it,” he said.
Willing to give their lives for their faith and not their country. That is at the core of the Ummah, and that is the call of Usama Bin Laden. The problem is which faith? Muslims killing muslims and the sectarianism within Islam denies that there is any consensus. So the killing goes on.
The king's speeches would be a lot shorter if he left out all the "God willings" and "peace be unto him"s. Actually, he's not so bad as Arab speakers go. Some of the speeches by bin Laden or al-Zawahiri or al-Zarqawi are so dense with religious speech tics like this and/or Qur'anic references that it's difficult to parse what they're actually trying to say (beyond "kill the Jews-Crusaders-infidels").
Al-Zawahiri is tedious to read, bin Laden only slightly less so, but neither of them possesses the psychopathic brilliance of al-Zarqawi before we dispatched him on his way to meet his 72 virgins with one of our 500 lb bombs. All these guys sprinkle their speeches with references to Islamic history and events, so even a smattering of knowledge about history helps in making sense of their speeches. In al-Zarqawi's case I tracked down a few of his more colorful historical allusions and learned some very interesting things, such as the treacherous role played by the Shia in the destruction of Baghdad by Hulagu in 1258. And of course they've never gotten over the destruction of Jerusalem by the First Crusade in 1099. (But their destruction of Constantinople in 1453? Never mind!) We might not find this particularly relevant today in the West, but such historical events still loom large in the Muslim psyche.
No, the King is displaying tolerance. Criticism is permitted by one Muslim to another, as long as it is within the acceptable bounds of Sharia. This is a step in the right direction, since Muslims have an intriguing habit of declaring each other heretics (takfir) and then killing each other, which saves us the trouble.
The West will continue in its, so, politically-correct ways pacifying its nemesis, Islam.
Actually, in this context, I think there's no such thing as 'the West'. There's a lot of citizens, who are free to do whatever they find meaningful.
Some, like Geert Wilders, find it meaningful to produce a small documentary on the Quran. It's just a 15 minute movie, which anyone with a computer and basic video equipment can do. No big deal.
Yet, it becomes a big deal in exposing the fallacies of the European Union, Council for Europe and even NATO. That's pretty good for a low-budget short documentary.
What we need is more of this - much more. Citizens who find intelligent ways to do the Right Thing. Then our institutions will have to either live up to their promises or fail. Without these challenges, however, they will for sure rot and fail. Thus, it's better to get going...
“Your enemies have gathered and struck and continue to strike and you, the innocents of 2006 and beyond, fight among yourselves, chew and rip at your own bellies, blame your brothers and yourselves and your institutions of the Enlightenment – law, tolerance, science, democracy – even while your enemies grow stronger.”
http://www.dansimmons.com/news/message/2006_04.htm
I can't think of anything else in the early 21st century that DESERVES more criticism than Islam.
Traffic jams? Hard drive failures? Al Gore?
No, they all crumble to nothingness in comparison.
I'm convinced that no Western government is going to do anything to protect their citizens and cultures from the Muslim onslought until citizens themselves rise up in revolt against their governments, and demand that something get done.
In the meantime, so long as citizens in the West continue to elect the same people to office, they are as guilty as their leaders for what's happening, and what's going to happen, to their civiliztion.
We have ourselves to blame as much as anyone else.
when will the west wake up, times ticking away
If nobody is above critism, it must be ok to criticize Mohammed, right???
Insult Islam they say... when The Bible and The Torah are full of oppression towards woman, crusades and how God dealt with transgressors.
If you try and claim the usual 'but we don't act on it'... then you are not Christians or Jews. THIS IS WHAT BIBLE SAYS. You can't pick and choose what you want to follow.
I'm also noticing how you claim The Torah and the Bible are God's words but when pressed with a difficult question you turn round and say I don't believe they were God's words. Make your minds up.
Robert Spencer claimed in a certain posting that this was not a sectarian website and that if Muslims wanted to join and criticise terrorists 'they were welcome.' So why does he quote passages from the Quran claiming WOMAN not terrorists are mistreated. This is sectarian in my book. Is the enemy terrorists or is it Islam, which would then require a a hint of sectarianism.
Insult Islam, that's fine. But when a certain English Historian (David Irving) merely doubts the number killed in the holocaust, don't put him in prison for three years. Did he poke fun at the holocaust Jews? Is there a law against it?
Then you say the time is ticking away for action. Well I'm afraid you're wrong if you try and call Iraq and Afghanistan a war on terror. Your acting NOW. Why not act against North Korea?
There is nothing you can do to stop Islam as a religion. If thats your war you won't be able to destroy it.
Many Jewish and Christian people claim Muslim society is backward and your way of life is better. Well first of a bunch of terrorists don't speak for us. Neither do your terrorists speak for you.
In terms of materialism, fine, you are light years ahead, because we don't want it. I thought since you were God-fearing people, you didn't want that either?
In terms of humanity, you will never reach the level of the Muslims until you change your whole society to one thats not based on money, image and individualism.
Till then, I don't care what you say, what your media says.. you won't reach the level of the Muslims.
Your society is thanks to a certain 12th century Muslim named Ibn Rushd. Not only did he bring the West to the level of the Muslims at the time, but he single handedly changed your whole mentality, your philosophy forever. And thanks to him, the West can now claim to be ahead of the Muslim societies on virtually everything, accept spiritually.
So criticise as much as you want and claim Islam is a cancer on your society.
But without it, you would not have discovered anything, let alone have a standard of living that you do now.
How important is the number zero, to everything you have discovered in the past and you continue you discover? That minuscule number, which literally means nothing, is the basis for everything in any subject.
We honestly do not care, since it's you that's trying to wipe us out, it's you that's attacking us, it's you that are claiming superiority.
Hypocrisy is something I dislike, and I know you dislike, but for some unknown reason you cannot spot yourselves in the act of it.
Insult us, but we will insult you, likewise. You've overstepped the mark by the insult to the Prophet(pbuh).
It's similar to us speaking in the most disgusting anti-semitic manner, of the like you've never seen or heard before. Let's see how you react to it.
"If your enemy is quick to anger, seek to irritate him."
- Sun Tzu
Insult him! That will enrage him to such an extent that he will figuratively explode and reveal himself and his ideology for what they are.
Some of the benighted followers of the nutcase of makkah will literally explode. What is needed is the techology to detect explosives on Moslem bodies when these are in a safe-for-infidels location and then remotely explode them.
Any collateral casualties among "the faithful" are part and parcel of premature "homicide-jihad" explosions."
The Koran is an insult to Christianity since it denies the cross. Mark 8 shows Peter being called "Satan" for trying to have Jesus turn from the cross. To deny Jesus went to the cross is a lie and an insult to Christianity.
If Muslims can not be insulted lest a crime is committed, soon it will be a crime to be a non-Muslim. That's how Muslims prosper; be insulted, killed the insulter, take their wealth, repeat.
rational,
You said: "I'm convinced that no Western government is going to do anything to protect their citizens and cultures from the Muslim onslought until citizens themselves rise up in revolt against their governments, and demand that something get done."
That is valid.
But
" . . . so long as citizens in the West continue to elect the same people to office, they are as guilty as their leaders for what's happening, and what's going to happen, to their civilization."
What you say immediately above assumes that we have control over who is put up to run for office. Note how all of a sudden McCain who was thrashing about weakly in the background suddenly sprang into prominence at the time of the Florida primary. Giuliani, who was a favorite resigned, throws his support to the reborn McCain. Who orchestrated that? I don't know.
If you are or were a Democrat, you no longer see what used to be called a "Democrat." Now, you have to settle for the badly besmirched Obama or Hillary--and she brings back bad memories of a do-nothing against the jihadist Bill Clinton, friend of Yasser Arafat (ptui!) and the man who propped up the Moslem Albanians and gave them Kodovo--now a Moslem stronghold.
So how do "We have ourselves to blame as much as anyone else[?]"
Last Presidential election we were faced with a choice between the traitor Kerry (he betrayed his country and his fellow service personnel) and G. W. Bush, "the unready," if there ever was one who fit that nickname (and I am being kind here).
The coming election, we will have a choice of one of the two Democrat candidates whom I smeared above or the difficult-to-fix-in-one's mind McCain.
Therefore, the first paragraph you wrote, the valid one, is the only hope we have. Now civil strife is not something to be joyful about, and less attractive is the prospect of revolution, where the people in power who are selling out your country are deposed and replaced--a dangerous procedure.
The enemies in our midst are cleaned out--one way or another, and the country is returned to what it was envisoned as by its founders.
Not an easy task. I have put links to the pros and cons of civil upheaval--revolution--in comments here before. To prevent this comment from being made to disappear because of containing a link, I will put the link in a further comment here. If that is lost, it does not lose the thoughts in this comment.
As promised in my comment above:
THE REVOLUTION . . .
THINGS ARE NOT AS BAD AS YOU MIGHT THINK THEY ARE . . .
Saracen,
Don't Muslims believe that the Bible is corrupt? Then why shouldn't Jews and Christians "pick and choose" what they want to follow? It's what YOU do, after all, but you hold it against them, you HYPOCRITE!
It's not that I agree with jailing David Irving, but what if he had proclaimed instead that Mohammad was wrong to break his peace treaty with the Meccans, and that he was in truth a cold blooded murderer. What would you consider to be a just penalty for such a blasphemy?
"There is nothing you can do to stop Islam as a religion," you proclaim. Probably not, because there will always be people gullible enough to believe Mohammad's ravings, because with out them their miserable lives would have no meaning.
"In terms of materialism, fine, you are light years ahead, because we don't want it." Really? Then you really should be setting a better example than the one that you are giving by using a computer, one of the many fruits of western materialism. Stop it, right now!
Oh, are you still reading? Very well, I continue...
"Till then, I don't care what you say, what your media says.. you won't reach the level of the Muslims." Hmm, you don't care, but it still concerns you intensely that your remarks should not only be read but be effective in changing the opinions of JW readers. IOW, you are at war with yourself, and this is the "level" to which all non-Muslims should DESCEND?
How interesting that you would boast of Ibn Rushd, also known as Averroes, since he is regarded as the father of western SECULAR thought. No jihadi, he! As the wiki entry puts it, "Averroes' strictly rationalist views which collided with the more orthodox Islamic views of Abu Yusuf Ya'qub al-Mansur led to him banishing Averroes though he had previously appointed him as his personal physician. Averroes was not rehabilitated until shortly before his death. He devoted the rest of his life to his philosophical writings."
"Islam is a cancer on your society." Can this be disproven?
"How important is the number zero, to everything you have discovered in the past and you continue you discover? That minuscule number, which literally means nothing, is the basis for everything in any subject." Zero has an interesting provenance. The Greeks and Babylonians utilized it, among others. What is certain is that by around 650AD the use of zero as a number came into Indian mathematics.
"We honestly do not care." We honestly don't believe you. BTW, Mohammad also liked to use the imperial "We."
"Hypocrisy is something I dislike, and I know you dislike, but for some unknown reason you cannot spot yourselves in the act of it." Do you address your imperial selves this way in the mirror each morning?
"You've overstepped the mark by the insult to the Prophet(pbuh)." There's a mark? Where?
"It's similar to us speaking in the most disgusting anti-semitic manner, of the like you've never seen or heard before. Let's see how you react to it." Uh, you mean there's something beyond calling Jews "apes and pigs?" Go for it, Saracen! I'm betting that you can top this slur, even if it is divinely revealed.
Hello everyone.
As I just posted on another thread...
We MUST ban together and get our message to those that govern our countries on the danger of Islam and most important our RESISTANCE to it manifesting in our countries, period. We also need to educate and convince the sheeple that can sway votes and jump on the "Kill the West" bandwaggon. With the available technology, it is easier to do than ever.
The Cindy Shehans, Obamas and Pink people of the world make no bones about being in the news and making their suicidal points loud and clear.
The only way we can affect who we get to chose from in elections, is to make sure that the political machines are well informed of our sentiments.
This is a much smarter and safer alternitive than revolutions.
Trust me. My family knows all too well the terrible outcome of one of those "famous revolutions".
Pssst! DeeMack,
Why don't they call themselves The Pink Panthers? Are they afraid of copyright infringement?
Lex- We believe the Bible and Torah are both corrupt. Both where sent down by God to the Prophets, only for man to include his own thoughts and opinions into it.
There are certain books in the Bible, which you believe are the work of the Prophets. It is them relating their life story, only for the ending to be something like... I died and I was buried on this day, at this place.
You're now claiming I'm a hypocrite because I believe the Bible and the Torah are corrupt, therefore, I shouldn't question whether you 'pick and choose' what to follow.
But it's not about me, it's about you. You obviously don't believe the Bible and the Torah are corrupt, yet you 'pick and choose.'
I do no such thing with the Quran or Sharia. If I abandon any Islamic law, I'm in disbelief.
Had David Irving said anything about Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) he would not have been in jail neither would he have been harmed, because in the blink of an eye, he would come under police protection. Or he may have been knighted by the Queen, just like Rushdie.
Many people say the same things about the Prophet(pbuh). Nothing happens to them.
Irving merely questioned the number who died in the Holocaust and he was given a prison term. Talk about freedom of speech.
The Sunnah of the Prophet instructs us to ignore these insults, or object peacefully. Every human should naturally know, what may offend unless he's insane. There is a mark and it has been crossed.
"Till then, I don't care what you say, what your media says.. you won't reach the level of the Muslims."
By saying this, I'm only stating how your lies about Islamic society don't go down too well with us and unbiased, established historians.
I do care what you think, doesn't mean I can't object.
My life is not miserable my friend.
Having a computer is materialism. But it does not possess me, personally, to go and buy the latest computer, because it looks better, or because everyone has it. That's materialism.
Islam is not against, buying goods which improve the standard of living.
The West may have invented it, but the concept of ZERO is still a major factor. Show me the Indians, the Greeks and the Romans used it prior to the Muslims in Andalus and I won't bring it up again.
Listen, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was chosen by God merely to convey the message, was it his fault the Arabs turned on him. Was he supposed to submit to them and die like a lamb? No. Nor should any human on this Earth. Did he profess that Muslims were to see themselves as superior to everyone else? No, that's pride and a big sin.
Ahh yes, Averros. The man who kicked off the European Renaissance. Did he study Islamic philosophy? Yes or No? Much of his thoughts was inspired from Islamic thinking, regardless of whether he deviated or not.
Can it be disproved that Islam is a cancer on Western Society? Yes. Because Islamic knowledge and the society of the Caliphs, their rules their system, is largely to thank for the highly organised society of the West today. Once again, Averros. What have Muslims done to be a cancer to western societies exactly. What have I done?
Does the Quran say the Jews ARE 'apes and pigs', or does it say God turned a community of them into apes and pigs because of their evil? Big difference.
Saracen: Wiki "zero", scroll down to "History of Zero, check wiki's sources, and don't bring it up again. ;-)
Saracen: Wiki "zero", scroll down to "History of Zero", check wiki's sources, and don't bring it up again. ;-)
Fine even though wikipedia is not the most reliable source. It does seem to suggest something similar to the concept of Zero was used prior to the Muslims. I'll give you that.
But what does the modern world use today is my question?
The Indians didn't have a zero, they had a blank according to the Wikipedia source. Neither did the Romans or the Greeks.
You might want to analyse what the Wikipedia source is saying since it agrees with me. Muslims invented the number ZERO and bought it to the world. The Indians, the Romans and the Greeks had something similar, but not the ZERO that we know today.
The whole point of bringing up this topic is to show you that despite your hatred of Islam and Muslims, your society and advancements in technology have some sort of Islamic influence somewhere down the line. I'm afraid, WE HAVE contributed to society and humanity.
Even perfume and soap was invented by Muslims. LOL.
You would be shocked as to many how things Muslims have had a profound impact on.
So how are we backward?
Saracen,
Have your scholars worked out a corruption percentage for the Torah and Bible, by chapter and verse? For example, what percentage of Isaiah 53 is corrupt? How about Psalm 22?
By picking and choosing I had you in mind, Saracen, and your approach to the Torah and Bible. I have no doubt that you accept as unalterably and eternally true the revelation of some 7th century megalomaniacal Arabian who claimed to be a prophet.
Regarding Irving, I asked you what you thought would be a just punishment for blasphemy, had he committed it. I had in mind how Mohammad ordered the execution of one of his critics, the Meccan poet Al-Nadr bin al-Harith, and assumed that you would want to emulate this perfect model of conduct with regard to Irving, had he blasphemed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the above example was related by Islamic historians. Would you consider them "unbiased?"
skevin zeroed your zero.
"Was he (Mohammad)supposed to submit to them and die like a lamb?" His arrogance would not permit it. In any case, he was not Jesus, the Lamb of God, who by his death would take away the sin of the world, to then rise from the dead as THE SIGN that the offering had been accepted by God. You reject the many parts of the Bible and Torah that allude to this sacrificial death as corrupt, because Mohammad decreed that the crucifiction was a "conjecture," not a fact. What proof did Mohammad give, some 6 centuries after the fact? None, other than his own naked assertion. Your willingness to believe this lie and all of the other demonstrably false whoppers that Mohammad "revealed" proves nothing but your gullibility.
My guess is that Averroes was more a fan of Aristotle than Mohammad.
"What have Muslims done to be a cancer to western societies exactly?" you ask. You mean, besides rejecting as blasphemous even the possibility that the Qur'an should be subjected to modern textual criticism? Have YOU undertaken such a study?
"Does the Quran say the Jews ARE 'apes and pigs', or does it say God turned a community of them into apes and pigs because of their evil? Big difference." This is priceless! Produce the evidence.
Saracen
I am not a math historian but if someone who is knowledgeable states that muslims invented the concept of "zero", then I would say....yea..that would be about right.
So how are we backward? posted by thesaracen
You mean BESIDES loving death instead of life, or treating women as chattel, or having the highest levels of illiteracy and lowest standards of living in world, or patterning society on a 7th century model, or not allowing unrelated men and women to speak with each other, or rioting, burning, and killing, over foreign political cartoons, or killing yourself with a suicide bomb in order to have sex in the afterlife...(the list goes on and on).
In terms of humanity, you will never reach the level of the Muslims until you change your whole society to one thats not based on money, image and individualism.
Till then, I don't care what you say, what your media says.. you won't reach the level of the Muslims.
tipiticle muslim not wanting to face the truth about how backward the muslim society is if we ever reach the level of the Muslims.we are lost
women being treated as sex slaves
and peaple of other faiths being being forced to live as dhimmi and paying protection to muslims for protection from muslims ajka jizha
\http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html
example NO human rights unless you accept islam Insult Islam they say... when The Bible and The Torah are full of oppression towards woman,
\2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).
(women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
crusades
lets see muslims are always winning about the crusades but if it had not been for muslims attacking and looting pilgrim caravans on there way to the holly land the crusades would not have happened
and how God dealt with transgressors.
get it strait
and as for peaple of the book living under muslim rule
Two days after the kidnapping of the Archbishop, the terrorists contacted his secretary, and talked to him in a very rough and demeaning way, with lots of insults, asking for a one million dollar ransom, to be paid within 48 hours.
On March the 6th, the terrorists called again and increased the ransom to 2.5 million dollars, while refusing to give any proof of the well being of the Archbishop, and refusing demands from the church leaders to talk to him.
On top of the ransom, the kidnappers submitted three conditions for the church as a contribution to the jihad operations:
1- The church should buy advanced weapons and hide it in churches, considered to be safe hideouts, to make it available for the use of the Mujahedeen for their holy war against the Americans.
If you try and claim the usual 'but we don't act on it'... then you are not Christians or Jews. THIS IS WHAT BIBLE SAYS. You can't pick and choose what you want to follow.
I'm also noticing how you claim The Torah and the Bible are God's words but when pressed with a difficult question you turn round and say I don't believe they were God's words. Make your minds up.
Robert Spencer claimed in a certain posting that this was not a sectarian website and that if Muslims wanted to join and criticise terrorists 'they were welcome.' So why does he quote passages from the Quran claiming WOMAN not terrorists are mistreated. This is sectarian in my book. Is the enemy terrorists or is it Islam, which would then require a a hint of sectarianism.
Insult Islam, that's fine. But when a certain English Historian (David Irving)
Irving's status as a historian has been widely discredited[2] as a result of controversy arising from his noted Holocaust denial and misrepresentation of historical sources. During an unsuccessful libel case Irving brought against American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1998, an English court found that he is "an active Holocaust denier; that he is antisemitic and racist and that he associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism." The judge also ruled that Irving had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."[3][4] He served a prison sentence in Austria from February to December 2006 for glorifying and identifying with the German Nazi Party, which is a crime in Austria under section 3g of the Verbotsgesetz law.
merely doubts the number killed in the holocaust,
he did more than that here is what wikapidia has on him
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving#Holocaust_denial
don 't put him in prison for three years. Did he poke fun at the holocaust Jews? Is there a law against it?
yes and the mufti of Jerusalem was a supporter of hitlers final solution and wanted a death camp like the ones that the germans had in Auschwitz
and today the biggest group of holocaust peaple claiming the holocaust is a lie are muslims
Then you say the time is ticking away for action. Well I'm afraid you're wrong if you try and call Iraq and Afghanistan a war on terror. Your acting NOW. Why not act against North Korea?
because the did not commite a act of terrorisim on western soil like muslims have in what they cal dar al harb the house of war and north korea does'nt have a blife that communisms must take over the world like islamb has and the west did act against nkorea what do you think the korean war as about
There is nothing you can do to stop Islam as a religion. If thats your war you won't be able to destroy it.
Many Jewish and Christian people claim Muslim society is backward and your way of life is better. Well first of a bunch of terrorists don't speak for us
the twin towers and 9/11 say they do along with the fact that most of the terrorism that happens today is done by muslims in the name of allha
Neither do your terrorists speak for you.
true groups like FOE do not speak for the west
nor do anti abortion groups but they do not turn themselves into humam bombs
In terms of materialism, fine, you are light years ahead, because we don't want it.
funny how a primitive cult-ure and society do want the advantages that a advanced society give like enough to eat because of advanced agriculture
and medicine
I thought since you were God-fearing people, you didn't want that either?
In terms of humanity, you will never reach the level of the Muslims until you change your whole society to one thats not based on money, image and individualism.
Till then, I don't care what you say, what your media says.. you won't reach the level of the Muslims.
i sure hope the hell not it would be a big step backwards
only a brainwashed idiot would want that ie turning down vaccines like the smallpox vaccines like muslims just did last year in Afghanistan
Your society is thanks to a certain 12th century Muslim named Ibn Rushd. Not only did he bring the West to the level of the Muslims at the time, but he single handedly changed your whole mentality, your philosophy forever. And thanks to him, the West can now claim to be ahead of the Muslim societies on virtually everything,
ROTHFLMAF FUNNY how if it was not for the new muslims from when the hoards of Mohammad overran
advanced peaple and socitys then swiped and rebranded the ideas as muslim just like a certain software company does today accept spiritually.
oh your admitting Saracen that Judaio Christian
socity is more advanced spiritually.
true the golden rule did come from our lord jesus ;s teaching and islam has nothing like it
So criticize as much as you want and claim Islam is a cancer on your society.
it is and like all cancer it needs to be teated and removed
But without it, you would not have discovered anything, let alone have a standard of living that you do now.
stop it i can quit luaghing do you write jokes like this all the time scarecen
How important is the number zero, to everything you have discovered in the past and you continue you discover? That minuscule number, which literally means nothing, is the basis for everything in any subject.
funny the fact is muslim society swiped it via conquest from othr more advanced less militaristic
society like almost any thing they have
We honestly do not care, since it's you that's trying to wipe us out,
that must be some good rotgut you are drinking
to come up with that lie
it's you that's attacking us,
911 and the bombings by muslims around the world expose your lie its the muslims who are attacking the west and the state of Israel and using women and children as human shields and then crying your terrorist kill woman and children when the idf frights back against the rocket attacks by palisinain jihad groups it's you that are claiming superiority.
we are we dont pull the same human rights violations the muslims around the world does
Hypocrisy is something I dislike,
then why are you being a hypocrite o ya i for got
your a muslims you are raised on Hypocrisy
from the quran
society and I know you dislike, but for some unknown reason you cannot spot yourselves in the act of it.
Insult us, but we will insult you, likewise. You've overstepped the mark by the insult to the Prophet(pbuh).
o you mean your prefect man who today would be jail for pedophilia for sleeping with a 9year old child and having sex with her
and for armed robbery
It's similar to us speaking in the most disgusting anti-semitic manner, of the like you've never seen or heard before.
what else is new muslims in the middle east do that all the time
Let's see how you react to it.
http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/arab/cartoon_arab_press_080702.asp
you mean like the following What cannot be disputed are two disturbing facts. The first is that
a number of passages in the sacred texts of Islam call on Muslims to
kill Jews and other non-believers. These passages include a Hadith
which specifically says that the Day of Judgment will only come
when there is an extermination of the Jews: “The prophet, prayer and
peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until
Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind
rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding
behind me, come on and kill him!”1 This Hadith is regularly cited
by leaders of the Islamic jihad in Palestine, Iran, Lebanon and other
2:61 And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower ? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.2:65-66) "Be ye apes, despised and hated!"
Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated. All modern Jews are descendants of apes (or all modern apes are descendants of Sabbath-breaking Jews). Humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them."
Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations.(But what prophets and revelations were there before Moses?)2:96 And thou wilt find them greediest of mankind for life and (greedier) than the idolaters. (Each) one of them would like to be allowed to live a thousand years. And to live (a thousand years) would be no means remove him from the doom. Allah is Seer of what they do.
Xero G- don't have a clue what you're talking about.
I'm done responding to ignorant comments.
Lex- If one line, in a supposedly 'holy book' is contradictory or illogical or plain absurd, that totally banishes any notion of faith in that book. God is perfect and cannot make the mistakes in the Bible. It doesn't need Islamic scholars to work out what is wrong with the Bible; historians, secular scholars and even Christian scholars are doing just fine. They highlight a verse, I check it out and there is no explanation whatsoever.
'I had in mind how Mohammad ordered the execution of one of his critics, the Meccan poet Al-Nadr bin al-Harith'
What do the Islamic scholars say exactly. Since you bought it up, find me the authentic source, bring it here and then we'll discuss it. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Prophet (pbuh) is free from these allegations. The Prophet (pbuh) would do no such thing.
The point is Irving and the injustice he suffered by commenting about the Holocaust. You claim you stand for freedom of speech, but Irving's imprisonment is an example of your hypocrisy.
Skevin actually gave me a source that backed me up. Muslims did invent the number Zero, as they did Algebra. So Newton, Einstein and all those medical discoveries, have in part the Muslims to thank.
Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) took attacks for a decade and more and didn't retaliate. A number of times he's life was at risk but he still didn't retaliate. They tortured his companions and drove them out of Mecca and he still didn't retaliate. Where's this arrogance you are talking about?
Jesus (as) was a magnificent human being. Chosen by God to correct the Jews and to bring them back to the original law of God, but they refused in arrogance. So God took away the favour he had granted the Jews and gave it to the Christians (Gentiles). But this claim about crucifixion is a myth. Why is there heaven and hell if Jesus Christ already took away sin?
If Jesus already took away sin, then thats an open call to do whatever you want in your lives and forget God. Since you won't be held accountable for your actions. The whole purpose of your creation is questioned when you apply this mentality.
God instructs us in the Quran that Jesus did not die on the cross, he was raised up and it only appeared to the Romans and the Jews that he was crucified.
The Bible itself gives you a few clues. Matthew (27:46) claims Jesus said, 'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'
Now this statement in the bible presents a few problems. If Jesus is God, who is he talking to?
If he died, willingly on the cross, how do you explain this statement?
It does not make sense that 'God' would die in this manner. It doesn't make sense that a Prophet would die in this manner.
If you look at the story of Abraham, the idolaters turned on him after he destroyed their idols. In a fit of rage they attempted to burn Abraham at the stake but God commanded the fire to be cool. So why would God spare Abraham but not Jesus?
The Quran is not the words of the Prophet (pbuh). He was an 'Ummi' an illiterate, so that you would have no way of claiming the Quran was the words of Muhammed (pbuh).
Averros was a Greek man was he? Who didn't spend half his life on Islamic theology. I didn't say all his thoughts were inspired by Islamic thinking, I used the term 'much.'
Modern criticism????
The criticism is not coming from people who want to understand. It's coming from cynics who want to find something wrong.
They tried contradictions couldn't find it. They tried science, couldn't find that either. They tried logic, that repelled them also.
So now they turn to the translations, in desperation. It's quite simple to manipulate something.
When interpreting the Quran, not only have you got to study society at that time, but the historical background of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and the companions. The historical background of the Surah, why and when was it revealed.
The authenticity of the hadith you are using and many other factors.
If you want to waste your time researching and bringing up topics, which any Muslim layman, can easily refute, then be our guests.
Lex- Lol I can't believe that you are asking for evidence for a verse, which in plain language states what I said in my last post. Firstly I haven't seen any Jews who are apes and pigs, since God turned ALL Jews into apes and pigs, as your claiming.
I'm sure you'll ask for evidence of that as well.
The verses clearly state that Jews were made an example of their own time.
And on reading (2:66) I think God makes it clear that a group of the Jews were made an example. An example to who exactly, since there was no Christianity or Islam at this time.
(65. And indeed you knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath (i.e. Saturday). We said to them: "Be you monkeys, despised and rejected.)
(66. So We made this punishment an example for those in front of it and those behind it, and a lesson for Al-Muttaqin (the pious.)
The same story is mentioned in a few other places of the Quran and the same thing applies.
Saracen,
Thanks for the reply.
You wrote, "If one line, in a supposedly 'holy book' is contradictory or illogical or plain absurd, that totally banishes any notion of faith in that book."
The sin of shirk is unforgivable in Surahs 4:48 and 4:116, but forgivable in Surahs 4:153 and 25:68-71.
Surahs 2:62 and 5:69 teach that Christians shall enter Paradise, but Surahs 5:72 and 3:85 say they will go to hell.
Regarding the execution of the Meccan poet Al-Nadr bin al-Harith, see: Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, (trans. A. Guillaume, Oxford UP, 1955, 2004), pp. 136, 163, 181, 262, 308. "The Prophet (pbuh) would do no such thing," you wrote. I agree. Instead he ordered others to do his butcheries for him, like beheading the men of the Banu Quraiysh for their "treachery."
"Where's this arrogance you are talking about?" By what presumed right did Mohammad and his band of merry pirates begin to attack caravans, kill people, steal property, and make slaves of the women and children who survived these bloody pillages? No, you may not appeal to Joshua's example as justification. Joshua was under the Mosaic Covenant, but Jesus established a New Covenant by his own death and resurrection, and it is that Covenant that governs Mohammad, in spite of his protestations to the contrary. Jesus gave a new command: "Love one another as I have given example." Why did Mohammad exempt himself from obeying this command? Could he plead ignorance?
"If Jesus already took away sin, then thats an open call to do whatever you want in your lives and forget God."
Jesus secured the possibility of forgiveness for all who seek it, because he took upon himself the penalty that all sin deserves, Christianity teaches, but grace is not license, Paul wrote. You should know this.
"God instructs us in the Quran that Jesus did not die on the cross, he was raised up and it only appeared to the Romans and the Jews that he was crucified."
Rather, Mohammad instructs you that Christians, Jews, and Romans believed and continue to believe a lie. Moreover, according to this "conjecture" of Allah's trickery, Mary the mother of Jesus (Isa) must also have been deceived into believing that her son was being crucified, when in "truth" Isa had been spirited away to Paradise, meaning as well that she received and prepared the body of a total stranger for burial, and went to her own grave grieving over a deception, unless, of course, Isa let her in on the good news. Did he?Did Allah? Do you have any clue?
"'My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?'
Now this statement in the bible presents a few problems. If Jesus is God, who is he talking to?"
Please, are you as ignorant as Mohammad clearly was about Christian doctrine? Read the Nicene Creed, for Pete's sake! Ponder this as well from Philippians 2:6-11 (New International Version)
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"It doesn't make sense that a Prophet would die in this manner." It makes perfect sense to me. "..why would God spare Abraham but not Jesus?" Jesus came to give his life, not to save it.
I'm not the one claiming that some or many, none or all Jews were turned into apes and pigs, but your own scholars who can't seem to make up their minds about the matter, to this very day. Provide the evidence of ANY possibility, please.
Lex- You've come up with two statements which would seem to be a contradiction to any person who is not versed in the Quran.
They're both simple to answer.
Shirk is something that God does not forgive. You've pointed that out correctly. But Muslims are not Jews. We have slightly different laws to the one's stated in the Torah.
The Torah that was sent down by God anyway.
We don't have the Sabbath yet God punished a group of Jews who violated it. Is that a contradiction also?
The verse about the Jews who were forgiven for idolatry is only emphasising the mercy God had for those people, considering how grave a sin they committed.
It's not a contradiction I'm afraid. Two different people, two different books, two slightly different laws.
As for Christians and Jews, Jesus(pbuh) didn't teach what you claim he taught. He never said worship me or I am God. So all the people that followed his teachings in his time and for many years after, they were rightly guided people and these verses are referring to them.
The same applies for the law abiding Jews at the time of Moses (pbuh), Soloman (pbuh) David (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh).
For a Muslim to read that verse (5:69) and apply your understanding, it would mean I don't have to pray five times a day, I don't have to fast and I don't have to do pilgrimage.
Secondly you don't believe in Allah (swt), nor do you believe in the last day, nor do you accept the Quran as the word of God. You don't believe in the Prophet(pbuh)or anything to do with Islam. So how is that verse applying to you?
One verse won't encompass everything in the Quran. You have to read the Quran in whole and then see whether, there is a contradiction or not. You won't find ONE.
I know the story of the Banu Qurayza, they weren't innocent, neither were they massacred. So why don't you do me a favor and quote what Ibn Ishaq said.
Attack caravans, kill people, steal property, and make slaves of the women and children who survived these bloody pillages?
According to who? Robert Spencer?
No Islamic historian would agree with you, since they know what they are talking about and they present the truth. It's quite easy to convince someone after quoting hadiths and passages of the Quran, when th
Attacking caravans- Fine.
(1) The Muslims had to flee Mecca because of the Quraish.
(2) These Caravans were the main source of income to the Quraish, whose sole purpose was to destroy the Muslims.
(3) Good, the Muslims attacked these caravans, why should they allow the Quraish to become even more powerful to wipe them out in Medina, after driving them out from Mecca?
Kill People- yeah, people who attacked them first and people who at that point were fighting them in battle.
Steal Property- What property? wasn't it the other way around? They had to leave their property which was then stolen by the Quraish.
make slaves of woman and children- captives (in war) is the word you want and not the least harm was done to them, to the extent that the majority of them became Muslim. After hostilities ended they were granted their freedom as commanded by Allah (swt).
Did Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) start the battle of Badr. Did he do anything wrong for the Quraish to attack him. Did Jesus (as) do anything wrong for the Jews to turn on him? Both preached the same message: 'worship God alone' and they were attacked for it.
Jesus gave a new command: "Love one another as I have given example." Why did Mohammad exempt himself from obeying this command?
You might want to refer to the hadiths. But you won't do that will you?
Since you want to debate refer to it.
You will not only find hadiths calling for the good treatment of neighbors, but also of orphans, the needy, the slaves, the disabled, the elderly, the woman, the children, fellow humans, followers of other religions, even animals and crops and religious buildings, the list goes on.
If I am a liar refute me on these things. Show me where it clearly states don't treat any of these groups well.
Not only did the Prophet (pbuh) say these things, he also carried them out himself.
This attack on a Muslim whenever he brings up the truth about the crucifixion of Jesus (as) is one I've heard over and over. But there's a simple question: Did God deceive Mary on the birth of Jesus (as)? Was she not informed by the Angel Gabriel?
How about Jacob (as)? Was he also deceived on the whereabouts of Joseph (as)?
Jacob (as) didn't know where his son Joseph was for years, but faith in God alone sufficed for him. You know in the Bible, Joseph somehow has two fathers, did you know that?
Good! The Jews and the Romans were deceived. Why not? Since they tried killing Jesus (as).
Christians deceived themselves by attributing the words of Paul and the books of men whose surnames we don't know, whose true intentions we don't know, to God. And then accepting it, even though some of them weren't even alive at the time of Jesus (as), some of them even hunted down Christians and killed them.
Why wouldn't Paul invent a lie to destroy the message of Jesus (as)? Could it not be a possibility?
There is no deceiving you, here is the Quran, which re-affirms what came before. It's up to you to decide.
The Nicene creed? 300+ years after the time of Jesus (as)! Anyway it's a prayer, I don't see it's significance. I might as well read the Bible since it says the same thing?
Just explain to me again why Jesus came to give his life?
You still haven't explained why Jesus(as) seemed unhappy at the way he gave his life and who is he talking to, since he is God in your eyes?
'I'm not the one claiming that some or many, none...'
Fine, I think I explained it enough, even though you were claiming thats what the Quran said in your earlier posts and you specifically asked for proof of what I said, did you not? Let's leave it at that since I don't understand what you're asking me now?
when th.... sorry about that
when there is no-one to present the other side of the story. Who you gonna believe, since there is only one person presenting an argument?