Could just as well be a Methodist
Now that the EU has strongly denounced those venomous people who insist on linking Islam with terrorism and have made it European dogma that terrorism has nothing to do with Islam, I wonder if they will issue a condemnation of Al-Zawahri as an...Islamophobe.
Meanwhile, his call to do this will be heeded insofar as Muslims accept his claim to represent the truth of Islam. But that is the one element of the jihadist appeal that analysts almost uniformly ignore.
"Al-Zawahiri Calls On Muslims To Turn Mosques, Schools, Factories, Universities into 'Centers of Support for Jihad,'" from MEMRI (thanks to LGF):
On April 18, 2008, Al-Ikhlas and other Islamist websites posted an audio message by Al-Zawahiri, produced by Al-Sahab, titled "Five Years after the Invasion of Iraq; Decades of Oppression by the Tyrant." Al-Zawahiri states that the Democrats in the U.S. are deceiving their voters when they promise to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq by forming an understanding with Iran. This understanding, he says, is meant to allow the Americans to focus on fighting Al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but will in fact only "only serve Iran's interests in the region and add fuel to the fire."Al-Zawahiri also discusses what he calls the Muslims' longstanding economic crisis and political oppression at the hands of the Arab regimes, particularly the Egyptian government. He calls upon the Muslims to take matters into their own hands, saying: "Rights are not granted, but are claimed by force."
He concludes by urging Muslims to take to the streets, and to turn their mosques, schools, factories and universities into centers of support for jihad and resistance.
He concludes by urging Muslims to take to the streets, and to turn their mosques, schools, factories and universities into centers of support for jihad and resistance.
I thought they were already doing that...What resistance is he talking about?
Helps confirm that if Muslims aren't busy being paranoid about kafirs, they're worried about other Muslims doing them in. No other world religion produces Bozos like this.
Maybe we should let Egpyt fall to the Muslim brotherhood. A Nation of people raised on free bread would drain the coffers of the oil states.
Egypt has dam and a canal. One built by the Russians the other built by the French. Egypt has done nothing for 10 centuries.
Oh, no, Raisinhead again.
These people have factories?
He must mean the so-called moderates. They are the only ones not openly active in jihad.
I like the scab on this mutant's forehead. In case anyone doesn't know, that shows he's a real pious Muslim bowing and scraping more than five times a day to his idols. In the process bumping his forehead on the floor of his cave.
Black turban also means he's a high muckety muck in the Islamic cult. Is this guy cool or what!
"Rights are not granted, but claimed by force." This loser needs to be sued by the Chinese government for stealing the intellectual property of Mao who said"Power comes out of a barrel of a gun." Fellow Jihadwatchers..how about we look for opportunities for people and governments to file lawsuits against bloodthirsty islamic thugs (besides Michael Savage's clear-cut one) like this lowlife and give them a tase of counter-jihad legal style? Hmmm.
Look at the teeth on this hateful, repellent verminous sub-animal...rat teeth. With apologies to rats everywhere.
"Rights are not granted, but are claimed by force."
-Ayman al-Zawahiri, from above.
No doubt he believes this. Compare with Thomas Jefferson:
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814. Apparently Jefferson was here referring to Christianity, but the sentiment applies even more forcefully to Islam.
"My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there."
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Mrs. Samuel H. Smith, August, 6, 1816. Substitute "imam" or "mullah" for "priest" and the sentiment still applies.
And finally...
"May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Roger C. Weightman, June 24, 1826 (in the last letter he penned). Again, substitute "Islamic" for "monkish" and the sentiment applies.
How incredibly lucky we were to have such a man as this as one of our Founding Fathers. Where is his equivalent today?
Al-Zawahiri also discusses what he calls the Muslims' longstanding economic crisis and political oppression at the hands of the Arab regimes, particularly the Egyptian government. He calls upon the Muslims to take matters into their own hands, saying: "Rights are not granted, but are claimed by force."
-from the article
Arab governments oppressing Muslims? That's rich, given that Arabs were the ones who spread Islam and themselves throughout the Middle East. Egypt wasn't an Arab country when Muhammad was born. Without Arab imperialism, the Middle East would be a different and, most likely, peaceful place today.
The picture clearly shows: he needs islam like he needs a hole in the head.
Black turban also means he's a high muckety muck in the Islamic cult. Is this guy cool or what!
Posted by: dennisw at April 19, 2008 3:39 PM
Black turban means he's a direct descendent of Mohammed! LOL! Yeah, right! How stupid do these Barbarians think we are??
Did you know that these frauds take hot metal spoons to their foreheads to show how devoted they are to Islam? Good God! The Islamic frauds!
"Black turban means he's a direct descendent of Mohammed! LOL! Yeah, right! How stupid do these Barbarians think we are??"
Posted by: darcy
Actually, darcy, he likely IS a direct descendant of Mohammad. And so might you and me, believe it or not, as well as from Genghis Khan, Confucius and Nefertiti. If you are European or of European descent you are almost certainly a direct descendant of Charlemagne.
Modern genetics has been able to start unraveling our genetic roots, and we are far more interconnected than you might suspect. A favorite pastime of Brits is to contemplate that they are are 46'th in line for the throne, or whatever, as part of a game of social one-upsmanship. Well, it turns out they are ALL direct descendants of royalty if you go back far enough.
Check out the Atlantic article http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200205/olson. It sheds interesting and surprising light on just how genetically interconnected we all are. In regard to al-Zawahiri's claim, he is probably correct, and mostly likely has the documentation to prove it. But he shouldn't be too smug, nor should any Muslims who take pride in similarly being able to trace such a link. It is likely that MOST Arabs could trace their lineage directly back to Mohammad.
Darcy said--Black turban means he's a direct descendent of Mohammed! LOL! Yeah, right! How stupid do these Barbarians think we are??
I say-- The ignorant masses of Islam swallow this BS hook line and sinker. Especially if the black turban is an Arab. The best of people according to Mo'
If you are fool enough to follow a false prophet, you are fool enough to do anything
Eastview ---
The Muslims stormed out of Arabia conquering many native peoples. Today's Arab is usually a genetic goulash. No way I can prove it but I highly doubt Zawahiri is related to non-prophet Muhammad. That claim is intended to dazzle uneducated Muslims and get automatic respect from them.
In other words it's a con game. A mind game
>>I say-- The ignorant masses of Islam swallow this BS hook line and sinker." --dennisw
Right. Show me the PROOF, Mr. Zebibah, and then I'll believe it! Otherwise, Al-Sadr and Al-Zawahri - No. And, as if being a descendant of Evil Mo is anything to be proud of! LOL! That's like being a descendant of Adolph, and being proud of it!
That claim is intended to dazzle uneducated Muslims and get automatic respect from them.
In other words it's a con game. A mind game
Posted by: dennisw at April 19, 2008 6:42 PM
Agree. Totally agree.
And there's A LOT of "uneducated" Mohammedans. A HUGE number. Millions. They can't even read the Qur'an.
But, these inbred imposters got the color right - Black. Just like the Black Heart of Islam. Merciless. Primitive. Hate-Filled. Compassion-less. Cruel. Evil.
darcy and dennisw,
I can't vouch for Zawhiri's ancestry going back to Mohammad, nor would I have any interest in doing so. However, the Arabs place quite a high value on patriarchal blood lines. Look at the long list of "begets" in the Bible, and the linkage connecting Adam to Jesus, as an example of this. This isn't scientific in the modern sense, but isn't too bad, either, and in their culture is what passes for evidence. The ancients placed great value on this sort of thing, so put a lot of effort into keeping records, or establishing a spoken record if they didn't have writing.
Once, while in Africa, I had occasion to have a meal with a Kenyan native in which the subject of ancestry came up. When I asked about his grandfather, great grandfather, etc., he proceeded to rattle off their names in a sing-song "My father's name was xxx, his father's name was yyy, his father's name was zzz..." and so on. I counted 50 generations. That's about one thousand years, corresponding to about the time of the Battle of Hastings in 1066, or the First Crusade launched in 1095. The ability to do this was not uncommon among the Africans. I would be surprised if there were a single American who could do the same, but it would be a mistake to extrapolate our relatively short historical memories to other cultures.
Information passed down by oral tradition isn't as good as genetic data, and it may be that Zawahiri's claim derives from just such oral traditions. But I would not be surprised if he really was able to document his claim from written records. The same for al-Sadr, for that matter.
That doesn't make him or al-Sadr any less despicable, though. And although such a claim might elevate their status among Muslims (and why would it not?), for the rest of us it marks them as ignoramuses.
" he is wearing a black turban because the Prophet Mohammed wore a black turban On the conquest of Mecca, For Zawahri, the wearing of a black turban would clearly signify his jihad against the west
It is noticeable that he wore a white turban before 9/11. White is actually the perfered colour of Turban as the prophet , it is said this was the best colour
His wearing a black turban would be symbolic that he is at war.."
Eastview,
So people in Africa can list their ancestors going back one thousand years? What's the point?
Americans don't do this for two reasons:
1. We left the class snobbery of Europe behind.
2. We're too busy living in the here and now.
Being able to trace your family tree is wonderful, but it's still the past. Someone today might be a direct descendant of Charlemagne. So what?
Many Muslims are probably descended from Jews. So what?
Probably very few Arab Muslims are direct descendants of Muhammad. He didn't wipe out all the men in Arabia and marry their women. In any case, it's meaningless. We're a long way from Muhammad, Charlemagne, Julius Caesar and all the rest. We're not ruled by royalty. The blood that flows in your veins doesn't give you any advantage.
I'd be inclided to label islam a "non-prophet criminal organization".
PMK,
The original question was whether al-Zawahiri is or is not descended from Mohammad. This is a scientific question that can be posed objectively and which has a real answer rooted in genetics. Either he is or is not. My post was merely to point out that his claim is likely to be true, and that I would not be surprised if he could document it. Your comment, and those of darcy and dennisw, are of a different nature altogether and address issues of value, which is something altogether different.
Eastview----
You have a very big problem. You are being razzle dazzled by the 3rd world. First you promote Zawahiri's claim he is descended from Muhammad. Then you tell me about Kenyans reeling off a thousand years of ancestry from an oral tradition.
With all due respect you are an utter fool to believe either claim. These people are poetic and fanciful. Not scientific and rational. That Kenyan experience was half lies some innocent and some not. Lies passed on through generations. Are you unaware of the high level of sexual intrigue in tribal societies?
Did you ever play telephone in kindergarten where the truth in mutated as it's passed down the line
I'm not condemning your Kenyans. Just don't take an oral tradition as fact. These people cheated on wives and husbands just like we do and had adventurous sex lives. In other words children of uncertain parentage were not rare and myths and "lies" were invented about who sired them. Add polygamy and you have even more of a mess as far as ancestry
You were right about Genghis Khan. It came out last year that 10% of Mongolians have his DNA because he had a colossal harem
dennisw,
No need to be insulting. A major component of my posts is directed toward the issue of genetic evidence, or rather how to separate inheritance fact from fiction. My guess is that most families have very little clue about most of the branches in their genetic tree, and yes, the issues are clouded by falsifications and wishful thinking as you point out.
Earlier I posted another note that gives links to about a half dozen new businesses that have emerged within the last five years that use DNA sequencing technology. Unfortunately, the note has been held up, presumably because it contains a number of hyperlinks Robert et al. want to check out for inappropriate material. I can assure you they do not, unless you object to some pretty cool technology that we will see assume more importance in the coming years. You can get the same information by doing a google search using "genetic geneology".
Also earlier I posted a link to an Atlantic article http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200205/olson that you might find extremely interesting. Would love to hear what you think of it.
Zawahiri is rightly afraid that we'll favor the Shiites and Iran over the Sunnis and Al Qaeda. Indeed, we shouldn't be doing that, but rather figuring how best to keep the two sides killing each other. You know, balance of power and all that.
Eastview---
Thanks. I read the Atlantic article about European genealogy. It's good and has things I never heard of before. But IMHO is not applicable to Kenya or those claiming descent from Muhammad
The side discussion about ancestry reminded me of the sons of apes and pigs insult. A few years back NPR had a thing on one of their shows about a discovery that EVERY human being on the face of the planet had a common female genetic ancestor, who the scientists named eve.
Whenever I hear the Islamists use their racist ignorant insult against the Jews, I feel it is akin to a man calling his brother a son of a bitch, an insult that rebounds against himself, and shows to me the origins of the revelation that the entity that called itself Gabriel whispered to Mahomet.
I think that Islam as a revelation tends to make men surrender to their worst natures and that nature is common enough to all humanity to explain the spread of Islam.
Let's see, now.
Where's Geert Wilders? Ah, yes, his government is prosecuting him for linking violent jihad to Koranic doctrine and protesting the Islamization of Europe in a movie.
Where's Susanne Winter of the Austrian parliament? Ah, yes, she's under indictment from her government which could put her into prison for two years - because she spoke out against the Islamization of Austria.
Where's Frank VanHecke of the Brussels parliament? Ah, yes, he was beaten up and arrested by his own Brussels police at an anti-Islamization rally - and is now being prosecuted by his own government to strip him of his EU parliamntary membership and all rights to be politically active.
Ah, and where's Brigitte Bardot? Ah, yes, she's on trial for the fifth time for "inciting racial hatred." She's charged with writing a letter to Sarkoczy, protesting the Muslim invasion of France and what it has done to their culture. Bardot faces a hefty fine of $22,000.00 and a "suspended" two month incarceration - for writing a letter.
France's Muslim population, only about 8% of the total French populace, has already killed free speech there, via last year's rioting.
I do not know what the percentages of total populations in the Netherlands, Austria and Belgium are. I do know that it does not require a majority to subdue and subjugate the rights of free men. All it takes is a violent minority and a lot of spineless elected officials who would rather punish the true patriots than fight the aggressors and oppressors.
Europe is lost. What now, America? We have 7,000,000 Muslims living here now. That constitutes about 2 1/3% of our population. How long until the organized en-masse violence begins in earnest here?
stickman, I agree. We're all related to Mohammad if you go back far enough and then start coming forward. Even Mr. Zebibah Head is kin, though I don't suppose he'd like coming to my annual Pig Roast.
This genetic fixated tribal mentality, especially in its Arab supremacist mode, is going to get lots more people killed before it is finally rejected by ARABS as contemptible and beneath human dignity, but this would also mean rejecting ISLAM, which has "divinized" Arab racism. That day cannot come too soon.
Eastview and Dennisw--
What would be interesting there would be a check of Y-chromosomes to see if there is some kind of common genetic marker between males who claim to be descended from Muhammad, or a similar test on the mitochondrial DNA of females, who would theoretically share some kind of feature with Fatima. There was a similar study done on Jewish kohanim (descendants of Aaron) some years ago that had some very compelling results.
I don't know if any study like this has taken place, but there would be obvious obstacles to getting a meaningful sayyid sampling pool, such as how many potential subjects would find improper the idea of questioning something that is in any way sacrosanct. Then there's the distinct possibility of coming up empty on genetic evidence for one's claims, or just plain inconclusive data.
dennisw,
There are two issues that are getting confused in this discussion. (1) Genetic inheritance, and (2) Claimed inheritance based on written/oral/physical evidence of the kind used by historians or archaeologists.
Firm genetic evidence directly linking Mohammad to anyone alive today is lacking (unless somehow his remains could be located and a portion of bone marrow could be retrieved for DNA testing - now that would create a buzz, wouldn't it? Uh, oh. I think I just blasphemed.), but it is a mathematical certainty that most of us of European descent carry one or more of his genes. So, Cousin Dennis, what do you think about Uncle Mo, anyway? ;-)
The other form of evidence that Zawahiri would base his claim on is probably some kind of written record extending back 1400 years. I have no idea of the quality of antiquarian records of Islam (sounds like a good topic for Hugh to tackle), but my guess is that this is what he would use, perhaps in archives housed in various mosques or Islamic "universities". The quality of this evidence would be less than that based on genetic evidence, but nevertheless might satisfy legal standards for authenticity, even those of the West. For example, the DAR (Daughters of the American Revolution) accept birth and death certificates, imprints of gravestones, and other less-than-scientifically sound forms of evidence of ancestry from fighters in the Revolutionary War ca 1776 required for membership. All of these kinds of records are susceptible to the same kind of manipulation you mentioned above. Al-Zawahiri's evidence would therefore be in this form. I have no idea how solid it would be.
In any case, the question about al-Zawahiri's ancestory should be discussable, independent of how obnoxious he might be. It's not unreasonable to consider ways in which ancestry is claimed in the various cultures of the world, and studying them doesn't necessarily mean you have to buy in on the various myths that may surround them. In al-Zawahiri's case, though, there is a good reason for undertaking this exercise that goes beyond merely establishing the truth of falsity of his claims. The Islamic world possesses a historical memory that continues to exert a much stronger and continuing influence than is the case in the West. Although WE are no longer held in the grip of history, or at least would like to fancy ourselves as not being consciously so, THEY ARE (still referring to us as Crusaders, for crying out loud). Understanding their mind set is absolutely critical if we are to be able to devise useful weapons for defense against them. Lack of the understanding of the historical forces, both social and religious, at work in this region of the world is one of the contributing factors to our finding our collective tails now caught in a crack over there. Al-Zawahiri's claims (and those of every other mullah wearing a black turban) to an ancestral link to Mohammad is part of this picture, and is why it is a mistake to dismiss these claims out of hand.
"What would be interesting there would be a check of Y-chromosomes to see if there is some kind of common genetic marker between males who claim to be descended from Muhammad, or a similar test on the mitochondrial DNA of females, who would theoretically share some kind of feature with Fatima. There was a similar study done on Jewish kohanim (descendants of Aaron) some years ago that had some very compelling results.
I don't know if any study like this has taken place, but there would be obvious obstacles to getting a meaningful sayyid sampling pool, such as how many potential subjects would find improper the idea of questioning something that is in any way sacrosanct. Then there's the distinct possibility of coming up empty on genetic evidence for one's claims, or just plain inconclusive data."
Posted by: MarisolJW
Good points, Marisol. On the other hand, apostate Arab Muslims might provide a pool for getting such a study started. They might even be enthusiastic about being part of such a study.
LOL, I see I started a big discussion here from my comment about the symbolism of the black turban! Zawahri needs a new Hatter - this model does nothing for him.
Eastview, I would appreciate it if you would trace my ancestry to a Crusader.
Yes, you pushed my button on this one. But al-Zawahiri needs more than just a new hatter. He needs a new barber and dentist, too. Some might even suggest everything could be handled at one time by using a mortician.
Darcy, if you get a chance to read the link above http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200205/olson that I posted earlier I'd love to hear what you think.
The Parthenon, symbol of Western democracy and intellectual and artistic liberty, was a beautiful classical survivor from the ancient world... until Islam conquered that area of Greece and turned the building into a mosque, and ammo dump, which was hit by a stray shell in 1687 (from Venetian forces trying to wrest Greece back from the Mohammedans) and the munitions stored within exploded, reducing this architectural icon to the mass of rubble we now behold.
Mosques as arms depots are an old, old story.
And one as new as today's headlines.
Profitsbeard,
Thank you for that very interesting item about the Parthenon. The Greeks have many, many such reasons for harboring historical enmity toward Islam. Why not enlist them to help construct solid ideological foundations for a new Western effort to roll back Islam? They would be delighted, I'm sure, to see Constantinople restored to its Byzantine glory.
"Eastview, I would appreciate it if you would trace my ancestry to a Crusader."
Posted by: darcy
I'd be delighted to if I knew how. The likelihood that you have one in your background is close to certain. In my own family (ninth generation American) we have been able to trace our patriarchal lineage, using traditional methods (including data from the Mormon archives), to early 17th century Germany. The information trace runs dry at the Thirty Years War (1618-1648), when the Catholics and Protestants routinely destroyed churches of each other, which is where the birth/death records were kept.
I think Marisol's suggestion involving DNA sequencing is the way that might make tracing your ancestry back to the Crusaders actually possible. It's a new technology that's still in its infancy, so it might take a while for the necessary data bases to be constructed. However, I have no doubt in time they will be and it will be possible to trace back through the thousands of branches in your family tree. Like new technologies, it's not clear just how the details of this will shape up, but my guess is that the data base will start small, but will grow rapidly. The technological challenge is nontrivial, but I think the biggest challenge will be to find out the names to attached to the various nodes, and discover and check out the physical evidence needed to verify them.
Eastview,
You responded to Profitsbeard:
Wow! What an amazing observation! This post stirred up many long forgotten historical points on the animosity between the Greeks and the Turks.
Is Greece off the "Islamic" radar, or is something being missed in the MSM?
Reports from Athens of the horde are nill.
"Is Greece off the 'Islamic' radar, or is something being missed in the MSM? Reports from Athens of the horde are nill."
Posted by: boneshack
Dunno, good question. It might be that the Greeks have learned the hard way that there is no appeasing Islam and now take steps to nip problems in the bud.
... or it could be that the Ummah doesn't think Greece is important enough to merit attention right now. Islamists have their sights on bigger targets, i.e., Europe. If Europe falls, then Greece automatically goes with it.
There would be several advantages of Greece agreeing to become the centerpiece of renewed Western resistance against Islam. First is their location. Think forward operating bases. Second, their national consciousness has seared into it their unhappy experience with, first, losing Byzantium and Constantinople, second, having to exist as an Ottoman province, and third, Smyrna. Smyrna happened less than 100 years ago (in ME time this is like yesterday). In fact, much of Greek history since the 7th Century has been consumed with surviving Islam. So the citizenry is already educated to the dangers of Islam.
Of course, any move by Greece in any direction that might remotely be construed as attempts at reviving Byzantium would immediately alienate Turkey and jeopardize our present security arrangements with them, including loss of the forward operating bases we already have there to threaten the Russians. It would also mean the end of Turkish fantasies about joining the EU. But given Turkey's lack of assistance in Iraq, and since we would now have bases in Iraq and Greece, and since by definition they would become an adversary, it's unlikely we would be welcome there, anyway.
I'd like to consider also enlisting the Russians in this effort, but I'm not sure I trust then not to want to make a grab for Constantinople themselves, perhaps through creation of a new Communist-inspired government. Maybe we could make a deal with them. They keep their hands off Thrace, the Sea of Marmara and the Dardanelles and we look the other way in Chechnya.
yet another sign of peace!
yet another sign of peace.....lol
Black turban also means he's a high muckety muck in the Islamic cult. Is this guy cool or what!
Posted by: dennisw
Black turban also attracts the heat and roasts the brain giving the wearer heightened allusions of power and superiority.
All Skunks have a common Genetic makeup.
"Terrorist who has nothing to do with Islam calls on Muslims to turn mosques, schools, factories, universities into "centers of support for jihad"
you may have realized that Muslims are turning schools, factories, universities as well as jail cells, taxicab office break rooms, certain areas in airports, train and bus stations, and other public areas into mini mosques..which could act as a frontier fort as a center of support for jihad.
Eastview,
You said: It is likely that MOST Arabs could trace their lineage directly back to Mohammed.
I think that's wrong. Mohammed didn't kill all Arab men and he didn't take all Arab women to bed. That means it is likely most Arabs CANNOT trace their ancestry directly to him.
In fact, given the Arab raping and pillaging of the Middle East, most Arabs have a better chance of tracing their ancestry directly back to a Jew than to Mohammed.
And even if you're right, SO WHAT?
That was 1400 years ago. It's irrelevant. Being a descendant of Mohammed hasn't given them any special status, except maybe in their own minds. If everyone is descended from Mohammed then everyone is equal. No Arab has a claim to leadership over and above any other.
It is said I look like Alexander the Great..I should have this looked into...
PMK,
Earlier I posted a link to an Atlantic article http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200205/olson that directly addresses this issue. The case it makes is that not only are all Arabs direct descendants of Mohammad, but so are you and me. If you get a chance, check it out and let me know what you think.
... Also, do a google search on "genetic genealogy" and follow any of the first few links to see what this is all about.
Is time to throw the stone amongst the dragons teeth sowen by Al-Zawahri.
Eastview,
It's fanciful, at best. Muhammad was not the only person alive in 14?? (pick your year). Even among those who converted to Islam, there are many people who have no relation to him. They all survived and prospered. The many Jews who survived the diaspora surely didn't have any relation to Muhammad. Otherwise they wouldn't have been Jewish. I doubt very much that the Turks have direct descendants of Mohammed and they are the ones who overrode a good part of Europe. Muhammad left a finite number of children. To suggest that a culture so highly tribal as Mohammed's would spread its seed that widely between tribes is questionable.
Of course we're all descended from people who came before us, but not everyone can be a DIRECT descendant of Mohammed. Maybe they're in the same family tree, but that's different. My nieces and nephews are directly descended from their parents. While we might have a common ancestor, I am not theirs.
It's one thing to say that almost everyone of European ancestry has Arabic blood in him but to say we are DIRECT descendants of Mohammed? It's impossible. There were other people having children at that time and not all of them intermarried with Muslims, not then or since. There were other Arabs having children at that time and not all of them interacted with Mohammed. And as I tried to point out, not even everyone who is 100% Arabic can be a direct descendant of Mohammed. What about those who converted to Islam in his lifetime? Mohammed didn't father them. Their children aren't his descendants. Mohammed is not Adam. For that matter, neither is Charlemagne.
Eastview,
Just as an example, someone who is a fourth cousin twice removed from Mohammed isn't a DIRECT descendant. At some point the family tree ceases to mean anything. Unless you can move from parent to grandparent in a straight line all the way back to Mohammed, you wouldn't be considered his direct descendant. At least, I think you wouldn't.
According to LGF, this creature's name is Ayman “Bumpy” Zawahiri.
ttp://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/29665_Egyptian_Physician_Wants_a_Lot_of_Jihad/comments/#ctop
as best as I could determine AL-Zarahiri had one child by his wife, and four other children by other women...what has become of them?..
could be an episode of "Cold Case".
"Of course we're all descended from people who came before us, but not everyone can be a DIRECT descendant of Mohammed."
Posted by: PMK
Counterintuitive as it sounds, that's precisely what the Atlantic article is claiming for everyone in the West. Takes a little while to wrap your brain around doesn't it? But think about it for a while, draw a few diagrams of family trees, think about the fact that Mohammad would be something like 150 or more generations in our past, and you'll see that it makes perfect sense.
..Made a typo on my previous post. That should be "...something like 50 generations..."
Counterintuitive as it sounds, that's precisely what the Atlantic article is claiming for everyone in the West. Takes a little while to wrap your brain around doesn't it?
Eastview,
Not at all. It's nothing but someone's computer model. It proves nothing.
"The mathematical study of genealogy indicates that everyone in the world is descended from Nefertiti and Confucius, and everyone of European ancestry is descended from Muhammad and Charlemagne"
There's just one word for this conclusion: wrong. There's no logic anywhere.
"AL-Zarahiri had one child by his wife, and four other children by other women...what has become of them?"
Nothing, other than al-Zarahiri trying to follow Mohammad who also had more than one wife and so on.
"There's just one word for this conclusion: wrong. There's no logic anywhere."
Posted by: PMK
Sorry you don't see it. This paper is a popular account of what's going on to lay the mathematical foundations for what in the future will develop into a technology for systematically collecting and tracing out genealogical linkages. Not just across human populations, but across the entire spectrum of genotypes. The technology is still in its formative stages, but eventually it will provide google-like capabilities for establishing firm genetic linkages across generations and populations.
What would you consider proof?
So many tribes, so many cultures, so many tongues, a veritable Tower of Babel, no wonder the confusion, prevarication, prefabricated pronouncements from so many that affect so few - most especially the deaf, the blind, the dumb who live lives of inclusion better recognized as democracy.
It's tough enough being an audience to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, what more being kin to exclusion where disobedience is met with being wanted and hunted dead, not alive.
Those who live by the sword die by the sword and soon enough suicide bombers will no longer be for they have seen to their deaths and therefore extinction.